The Bill Simmons Podcast - Charles Barkley on Scapegoating Russell Westbrook, Superstars vs. Bus Riders, Getting Traded, and a Crazy First NBA Week

Episode Date: October 25, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons quickly talks about the Patriots' dysfunctional loss to the Bears and New England's self-made QB controversy (1:54), before he is joined by Charles Barkley to discuss the expectations of Kevin Durant’s leadership role on the Nets, the Lakers’ big-picture issues, the Jazz and Trail Blazers’ hot starts, the 1-3 Sixers, early NBA Finals contenders, stories from Charles’s 16-year NBA career, ideal NBA rule changes, and more (7:19). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Charles Barkley Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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on Monday night Van Lathan and I we did the edge 25th anniversary last month Alec Baldwin Sir Anthony Hopkins and a bear Van Lathan and I, we did The Edge, 25th anniversary last month. Alec Baldwin, Sir Anthony Hopkins, and a bear. And they're in the wilderness and it's fucking awesome. I love The Edge.

It's really good. I had a lot of fun doing that podcast. Also, I had a really great, would you rather be killed by a bear or a shark debate that I think really set the standard for podcasts going forward. I was excited about that. Next week on The Rewatchables, starting on Monday night, we have a gimmick month. It is a gimmick. You're not going to guess. I'm just telling you now. You won't guess it. I think you'll like it. It is way, way out there. So that is coming up in November. The Prestige TV podcast been on, not a total hiatus because we've been doing Atlanta there. We've done a couple of shows, but it is about to ramp

up big time. We got White Lotus coming back on, I think this Sunday. Yeah. I've watched the first two episodes. Joanna Robinson and I are going to be breaking down White Lotus on Prestige TV every Sunday night. you can get on there. And then we have a bunch of other good shows that are coming out next couple months too. So check out the Prestige TV podcast. You can also check out our local pods, including Off the Pike with Brian Barrett, Boston Pod.

The Full Go with Jason Goff, Chicago Pod. Guess which pod was happy and guess which pod was sad coming off that Monday night game. Listen, I've been here this whole time for the Belichick era. And that was, I think one of like the six or seven strangest games of the entire era. You know, I think of like just off the top of my head, the wind game in Buffalo that has to be up there. There was that game when Jonas Gray ran for like 230 yards. I think it was on a Sunday night. There was that game when Belichick went for it on fourth and two from zone 28. There was the game when they ran it up when they were mad about Spygate.

I think they beat Washington like 59 to nothing. There's been some weird ones where you just kind of leave and go, wow, that was a weird one. This Monday night one was one of the weirdest because Belichick, the best coach of all time, one of the best things that's ever happened to me as a sports fan, a rare unforced error from him does this QB controversy catnip thing where he's elusive all week about who's going to start, Mac Jones or Bailey Zappi. And then by the time we get to game time, Lisa Salters is out there saying, we're going to see both of them.

Mac goes out, doesn't look great, throws a pick, crowd starts booing and chanting for Zappi. And Zappi comes out, scores two TDs. And for like five minutes, it felt like the 2001 Pats were back and this was Tom Brady all over again and Mac Jones was Drew Bledsoe. You know what happened. The Bears scored the rest of the points in the game.

The Pats defense got obliterated. Zappi had to play for behind. He wasn't great. And now you have two quarterbacks coming off a game where neither of them played that well. You have a fan base that is now divided between Mac and Zappi, which is one of the things, game where neither of them played that well, you have a fan base that is now divided between Mac and Zappy, which is one of the things, first of all, when you're playing two QBs in the same

game, or you're basically making, you're making it a bake-off between them during the season. I don't remember this ever working in the history of the football, in the NFL that I've been around. I don't, I remember Dallas did it once. I think it was Roger Stahl back in Craig Morton. I think we had RG3 and Kirk Cousins that time. There was like some Steve Young, Montana possibilities, but Montana always held them off. And just in general, it doesn't work because two things happen.

One, the fan base is always gonna ride for one or the other, which means the guy that they're not riding with is now an adversary in a lot of ways. And you felt the last night with Mac. Mac's a good guy. I really like rooting for Mac. Mac got booed. Mac had zappy chance yesterday. How is that good? He's in his second year. He's started less than 20 games. So you have that where now people are picking a side, which is never great. And on top of it, you have a day-to-day media controversy. I didn't want to lead the podcast talking about the Patriots.

I'm doing it at the top of 4 Pearl Gym, getting it out there. But it's a self-made controversy. It's like cleaning your room and deciding you're going to move the bed. And then all of a sudden you've completely blown up your room. And then you look at it and you go, oh God, I have to fix this before I fall asleep tonight. This is going to be the Patriots every single day now the rest of the way until this organically plays out, I guess. I don't understand why he did it. He's been around football for so long. I don't understand what the end game was. I don't know whether they thought they were just going to kill the Bears. So they were trying to see how comfortable Mack looked, but ultimately, you know, they knew they're

going to do Zappy. I don't understand it. You know, I'm, I'm pretty old at this point. I've been following sports since the mid seventies. And the one thing I've learned over the years, well, there's a lot of things I've learned over the years, but one thing I've learned over the years, well, there's a lot of things I've learned over the years, but one thing I've learned over the years is don't repeat obvious mistakes from history. And this is an obvious mistake from history, the QB platoon. It never works. It's never worked. It's never had a good ending. You end up diluting the value of at least one of the guys. You end up turning the fan base against at least one of the guys and you give the media a talking point every single day. What is the point of that? Belichick was the guy who was afraid

to sign Tim Tebow or he signed him and didn't want to keep him because he felt like he was going to be a distraction. Belichick doesn't like distractions. He just wants like, just going forward, next game, we're on to the Jets. So now you have to answer

Zappi or Matt questions? I don't get it. I went from feeling incredibly good about the Patriots, thinking that they're a playoff team, 10-win team, not to mention they destroyed million-dollar picks. I somehow it was going to be my first awesome

kicked-ass weekend. Didn't happen. That's a whole other story. But I can't believe how it flipped to the Patriots. And when Zappi came in, it was like, all right, all is right in the world. Here we go. Let's do it. And now, I don't know. We have two quarterbacks, but we really have zero because nobody has established themselves. And this is going to be a soap opera. And it's bizarre. It is an unforced error from Bill Belichick. I can't believe he did it. All right. We're moving to basketball. The one, the only Charles Barkley. He's next. First, our friends from Pro Jam. All right, we're taping this noon Pacific time on Tuesday.

Charles Barkley is here. It's been a while for us. Since the last time we talked, you signed a 50-year, $700 million deal with Turner. You're going to be there until you're 110 years old. Congratulations. Thank you very much, man. It's been very cool.

You know, Bill, there's so many people who really work hard on the show. Man, you get the easy part. We get to show up and do our thing. So I just want to thank, number one, Ernie, Kenny, and Shaq, but just all the people behind the scenes. You know, when Turner came to me, they're like, okay, because, you know, I

really don't feel like working till the day I die. I'm very strict on that, and I'm smart enough to know when I see all these old guys, I'm like, man, their bodies don't look great. And I want to be able to enjoy what I accomplished in my lifetime. I want to travel the world.

You know, I'm a grandpa now, which is the greatest thing ever. So, but they asked me a favor. They said, okay, we need you to stay on because we're going to have to bid on the NBA in a couple of years. And I said, you know what? You guys have been great to me for 21 years.

I'll stay a couple more years. So I think it worked out great for everybody, to be honest with you, but I'm very happy. Can I just tell you, I never thought for a second you were going anywhere. I used to laugh when I would see the stories or you'd be like, this is it. This could be my last year.

Like, you're not going anywhere. You love this. This is great. Plus you love money. Well, I got plenty of money, Bill. This is not my first job. You're not going anywhere. You love this. This is great. Pushy love money. Well, I got plenty of money, Bill. This is not my first job. You can never have enough money. Good point.

But, you know, like I say, I say this and I mean it sincerely. I played in the NBA for 16 years. I've been on television story my 22nd year. If I don't have enough money by now, I'm the biggest moron in the history of civilization. But like I say, man, I can't have enough money by now, I'm the biggest moron in the history of civilization. Like I said, man, I can't even believe this. I'll be 60 in a few months. It's crazy.

I can't believe you've been out of the league. This is the 23rd year you've been out of the league. What's crazy, I just saw Dr. J who's been amazed at me. When I got to the NBA in 1985 him and Moses and Maurice Cheeks and Bobby Jones

were like 35 and we called him grandpa we made fun of him because they were like the old guys at 35 now I'm like 59 I'm like holy smoly so but like I said earlier man I'm not going to drop dead on television.

I want to be in Italy, Spain, France, South Africa, somewhere enjoying life. You know, I've been on a roller coaster a long time, Bill. I've been on a roller coaster since I was 18. But the most important thing is for me was to help turn her out because they've been great to me, man. I'm going to go my whole life without having a real job. Thanks to that stupid little ball and people on their television. So it's been great. Well, you're always destined to do it.

You were the easiest guest ever to be good at either broadcasting or studio. Because I always feel like if the interview, if the guys are good in the interview, it's usually going to translate. And you were always a great soundbite. You were great at interacting with people. It was just so clear that you were meant to do it. But sometimes, you know, you flirted with maybe being behind the scenes.

Like I saw the Suns are coming up again. I wouldn't be surprised if you're getting floated around in one of the 19 groups that are going after this team. Well, you know, the problem is my phone has been blowing up. But I'm telling, like, guys, I am very well paid, but I don't have $4 billion just sitting around. Because, you know, the team is probably going to go for, like, $4 billion. Yeah.

And, yeah, I got money, but I'm not even like, like I say, and I'm not going to waste a lot of money for 5%. So I can say I'm one of the owners of a team. I'd rather have that. And I'd rather have that money

because yeah, my ego is not like, yeah, I'm one of the owners of the sun. I got $20 million in it. I own like a percentage. I'm like, no, I'd rather have, I'd rather have the $20 million personally. Well, the days of somebody being able to put in a little bit amount of money and run the team, those days are over.

But that was a moment. The one guy whom I pulled off and I heard, I'm probably breaking some news here, but I heard Obama's involved in one of the groups. And that's the one guy that I feel like they would make him the actual face and the money guys would be so happy

to have him at the front that they would just be like, cool. Yeah, you... Well, time out. Yeah. If Obama called me, hell yeah, I'm buying in.

Hey, if Obama calls me, if President Obama calls me and says, hey, would you be a part on our team? Hell yeah. You know, I got so much love and admiration for that guy. You're throwing your hat in the ring. Great.

Let's talk. I don't know where to start with you with this crazy basketball season we're having. We're only a week in. Yeah. Let's start with Brooklyn. Because there was a moment. I was watching last night. They lose to Memphis and they lost pretty convincingly. And there was a moment, like seven minutes night. They lose to Memphis and they lost like pretty convincingly.

And there was a moment like seven minutes left, they cut to the bench and Durant was just kind of staring out sadly onto the floor. And it's not like they're bad, but I also don't think they're a contender. And I think there's moves that need to be made. And I think they made this Ben Simmons bet that, you know, they're saying he's rusty. Well, it's like, we don't even know if this guy is competitive enough to handle a hundred game season. I saw in his eyes, maybe I'm overreacting, but this is what I do for a living. I saw in his eyes, like kind of a resignation, like we're not quite there and we're probably not getting there.

What do you see when you watch that team? Oh, they could win the championship or they could get a new coach by Christmas. It's one of the most fascinating things that I've seen in my 30, 40 years in the NBA, basically. Like, if they won the championship, I wouldn't be surprised. If they got their coach fired by Christmas, I wouldn't be surprised.

It's like one of those train wrecks that you're like, oh, I got to watch this. Because they got three of the most interesting personalities we've ever had on the same team. And you have zero idea what you're going to get night in, night out.

From any of them. Well, I guess Durant's the most reliable. Kyrie, I have no idea. Ben Simmons, I have no idea. But the problem with Kevin is, and Bill, one of the reasons, you know, we got in this great debate about bus routes and everything last year, and Kevin got all offended, which I stick by.

When you're the leader of a team, the physical stuff that everybody see about, but the mental tough, where you have to be the psychologist for every player on your tough where you have to be the psychologist for every player on your team you have to be that you have to be the buffer between the coach and the players that mental stress is what kevin has never proven to me that he can handle

yeah so and this is probably the most mental stress he's ever been under because he has zero idea what what kairi's gonna do he has zero idea what Kyrie's going to do. He got zero idea what Ben Simmons is going to do. And to be honest with you, the whole thing with Steve Nash is fascinating. Like, I don't know if he's got the personality because you got three. I won't even call them alpha males. I call them alpha, alpha, alpha males. And Steve Nash is a really good guy guy i don't know if he's gonna

be able to handle those guys to be honest with you did you just call ben simmons an alpha male well he wants to be treated like one right but does that mean he's an alpha male it doesn't mean he is but you know in in our business when you're great at sports you develop an ego yeah first of all guys who don't even get to play on the bench got egos. And first of all, we all got egos too. But Ben wants to be treated like an ego because we wouldn't be in this situation if he didn't want to be treated like that. Because you go back and look what happened.

All the 76ers asked him to do was get better at basketball. Yeah, make some free throws. Listen, if somebody's paying me $35 million a year, at least they can do is ask me to get better at my job. And instead of accepting the challenge, he says, no, I'm taking my bat and ball and go home. And that to me tells me he thinks he's an old, like I'm Ben Simmons.

You can't tell me to get better at basketball. Yeah. Well, yes, we can. We're paying you 35 million and you're not where you need to be as a basketball player. But your first response is nah,

screw y'all. I don't want to be here. Oh, you don't like me. Yeah. You're against me. It's like, nah, we just want you to be better. Hey, listen, he's lucky. He's lucky he's playing today.

Back in my day, we had coaches who would fist fight you if you didn't do what they tell them to do. Right. And he would have got his ass kicked a lot. Hey, I remember Billy Cunningham, who's a great mentor and a great friend today. The Sixers owner wanted me to start starting. Billy Cunningham, who's a great mentor and a great friend today,

the Sixers owner wanted me to start starting. The Sixers owner behind his back traded Mark Alvarone before a game. I remember this vividly. We were getting ready to play the Chicago Bulls. We get on the bus. Coach is late. And we're like, what the hell? And Billy was never late.

Billy would leave anybody. Billy would leave his mom and she's not on time. So Billy's late. And this is like my rookie year, obviously. We get there. Billy comes on. We get to the game and Billy says, yeah, guys, we just traded Mark Iveroni.

Because the owner wanted me to get to play billy comes and grasps you're not fucking playing until you get your ass in shape you're not gonna play and he said sam you're starting sam hadn't played all year bill and he says what he says you're starting and Billy says, I'm not starting this fat-ass guy until he gets his ass in shape. That's the way players coach in my day. I hate to be the old get-off-my-lawn guy, but for Doc Rivers and those guys to tell Ben,

like, yo, man, you got to get better at basketball, for him to get pissed, that tells him he thinks he's an alpha male. Was that the same owner that traded Moses Malone and then traded Brad Doherty for Roy Henson? Hey, man, it's too soon. 36 years is too soon? You know, Bill, that... You could have just taken Brad Doherty.

How about that idea? Just keep Moses, take Brad Doherty, and then you get to play with both of them. Well, the good thing about it, I thought, Moses changed my career when he made me lose 50 pounds. I thought he would be a great mentor and a great backup to Brad Doherty.

So, I'll tell you this story. There was a reporter in Philly called, damn, I forget his name actually, Stan something, great reporter. Phil Jasner forget his name actually stands, uh, something great reporter, Phil Jasner is his name. Sorry. Yeah.

Great reporter. So we went out celebrating the night before the draft, me and several teammates. And we're like, gosh, we're going to have a good team. We're going to have Brad Doherty. Moses going to mentor him. I'm, I think I made my first all-star team like that year. I'm like becoming a star. Oh, you're a beast that year. Yeah, but I'm thinking like, yo,

man, we going to be, I got a good team for the next 10 years. I get home about three-something in the morning. My phone rings about six in the morning. And it's Phil. He's a Phil. He's a Charles. I said, Phil, why you calling me, man? We've been out celebrating all night. He said, well, stop celebrating. I said, oh, what happened? He says, Phil, why are you calling me, man? We've been out celebrating all night. He said, well, stop celebrating.

I said, oh, what happened? He says, the Sixers just traded the number one pick in the draft. And I said to him verbatim, the Sixers are not that stupid. He says, I said, Phil, let me sober up, take a shower, and I'll call you back in 15 minutes. So I called him back about 15 minutes later. I said, now tell me what's going on. He says, well, you want the good news

or the bad news? I said, well, it can't be any worse. He said, no, you want the bad news or the worst news? I said, is something worse than trading the number one pick in the draft? He says, and you guys

traded Moses to DC for Jeff Rulon. Jeff Rulon didn't even play last year. He's this. And I never asked. He's coming back from a back injury. He'll be fired. Yeah.

And I never played with Jeff. Yeah. Because he never played again. And I says, are you telling me these nitwits in Philly traded the number one pick in a draft to Cleveland for Roy Henson, who's a good player? And then not only that make worse, you traded Moses. They're like, yeah. And I called the Sixers. I says, hey, is this true?

And from that point on, we were no good in Philly, man. It ruined my entire Philly career. Well, and Andrew Toney getting hurt was the other piece. Because he should have had another. Yeah, he was already hurt by them. But that should have been another seven years with him. Yeah. But man, trading Brad Dardy screwed up my entire Philadelphia career.

Yeah, that's a tough one. Can we go back to what you said about Durant, about the accountability and responsibility of being a leader? Because to me, it's like when you're the best guy, you're also responsible for setting the culture, all these different things. We just saw it with Steph, right? Yeah. That Draymond thing, which was about as dangerous as a situation a team can have that just won the title, right?

The pride itself on chemistry, how everybody plays together, gets along. You have one of the leaders on the team just hauls off and punches the young guy who's about to get a contract extension. And you've got to navigate that a certain way, right? Yes. Steph, seven years ago, I'm not positive how he handles it, but I think you could see,

especially after the fourth title, there's a confidence. It's his city. It's his arena. It's his organization. It's his team. It's his arena. It's his organization. It's his team. Ultimately, everything's going to stop with him. And I'm guessing it was his decision to not overreact with the Draymond thing, not have

a huge suspension, let him be there for ring night, and then kind of play it out. But it's also going to be his decision if he feels like it's not working, right? Am I giving him too much credit? No, I think they don't have to make a decision at some point. I think they were kind of caught between a rock and a hard place with the ring ceremony.

Yeah. I think that was the big thing that people not talk about. I think he had to be there for ring night. But I think it's clear that the war is going to go young, which is scary to me because I've said this before. Bob Myers, R.C. Buford, and Sam Preston, they've been doing a fabulous job. They've been the best GMs in the league

for the last 10, 15 years or earlier. But what Bob Myers has done the last 10 years, because obviously, I'm a big Kaminga fan. Me too. And Wiseman. But to go, don't forget, he got Poole and Moody, which are steals. The Wiggins trade is the coup de grace of all of them. Yes.

That was an unbelievable trade. And if Wiseman and Kaminga can play, they're going to be favored to win the next two or three championships or have a chance. It's going to come down to those young guys. And they, they clearly have made their decision that we re-signed Wiggins. We re-signed Pooh. Draymond's got this year and maybe next year if they don't move him. And, but they're going to go young, but you know,

And he knows it, which I think was part of the issue. Yes. But you know what, Bill? Nobody owes us a lifetime deal. They pay you for what you did. Draymond's making $30 million. They don't have to say, well, you passed your prime and we won four championships. We're going to pay you

for the next five years just because of what you've done. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. To get back to your original question, when you're the best player and the leader, you're putting out, you're like the little guy at the dike. You're putting out fires all the time, and you got to play great.

Yeah. That's the responsibility. That's why they pay, in 99.9% of the time, that's why they pay you the most money. That's why you get all the commercials, and you get all the credit. The money that's why you get all the commercials and you get all the credit the negative of that is you get all the blame and that's just the way this thing works but the mental stress to go out and play great every single night and be an amateur psychiatrist that's what separate guys at this league uh from the all when you start talking about the all-time greats.

And Kevin has got to accept that responsibility. And I know he doesn't want it, but you don't get to pick and choose. Right. And you could see it last year with the Kyrie thing too. I'm going to keep going on this, but we got to take a break. The NBA season is underway. The perfect time to download

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of the NBA. Must be 21 plus president in select states. First online real money wager only. Refund issued as non-materials free bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention,

and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. So you're talking about the responsibility of a leader. So you go to the Suns, the 92-93 season. Kind of a hodgepodge team, right? You're going in, it's kind of Kevin Johnson's team, but you're better than Kevin Johnson. You got Oliver Miller. No, no. So when I got there, I remember when I got there, I was sitting down with the owner and Cotton Fitzsimmons. And this is OK. Now, this is Kevin Townsend. No, it's not Kevin's team anymore. It's my team. I'm the best player here.

Yeah. And they're like. I says, hey, I want Kevin to play great. I want Marley to play great. Mark West, I want everybody to play great. But let me tell you something. I came here and we're going to the finals. Yeah. I said, we're going to the finals. He said, how do you know that? I said, because I think I'm the best damn player in the world. I says, Michael Jordan just better than me because he got better players. I'm playing with bombs in Philly.

I says, I'm going to the finals. I guarantee you guys that. And I says, you boys better get on my back. When I got there, I said, Kev, you do your thing. Dan, you do your thing. I know the game at some point is going to come to me. It's going to come to me and I'm going to deliver.

So like I said, when I got there... You wanted it. You wanted the responsibility to challenge the whole thing. But that goes with being the best player. I say, hey, Dan's a hell of a player, him and Kevin. But I said, they're not on my level.

No disrespect. I said, this is my team when I walk through that door. But I don't have to go around telling people that my action is going to, my play is going to prove that out. Yeah. Because I never understand. I see these fools complaining about whose team it is and things like that.

Everybody knows whose team is it. You just want some help. I said, if you're worried about it, it'll come out in the wash who team it is. You know, you go back. I watched Kobe and Shaq I'm like well they arguing

who team it is I says well at some point Kareem turned it over to Magic and that's probably the Lakers biggest problem now I said this on the show

the other night at some point LeBron's going to have to say AD damn I'm a hundred years old it's about time for you to be the best player

you're in your prime you should be because I said about five or six years ago I said that dude there is going to be the best player. You're in your prime. You should be, because I said about five or six years ago, I said, that dude there is going to be the best player in the world for the next 10 years.

And he's not even in the conversation anymore. Giannis is the best player in the world right now. I've given up. I've given up on the AD having that possibility anymore. I think it's too late.

I think he's had too many injuries and I actually don't think he's gotten, I don't feel like he's gotten better. I feel like he peaked in 2018 on that New Orleans team. I don't think he has that killer instinct.

Like, you have to have a thing like, I'm going to kick your ass and there's nothing you can do about it. And that's one of the cool things about being a great player. 99.9% of the time things about being a great player. Yeah. 99.9% of the time you step on the court, you're the best player out there. Like, in today's game, if you're Steph Curry, you're the best player at 99 points,

unless you're playing against LeBron or Giannis, but you're still the second best player out there, and you want to put on a show. But you have to have a mindset like, I'm here to put on a show too. I want everybody to know I'm the baddest MF out here right now. But that's where that little killer instinct come in. Like, I want these people in Sacramento to know I'm the man when I come to town.

When we go to Seattle, I know y'all got Gary Payton and Sean Kemp, but no, no, no. Them brothers ain't on my level. So that's the responsibility. Like, when I got to see a great player, I couldn't wait to get to the arena. But I was like, y'all think this guy is great. I'm going to show y'all some shit out here tonight that y'all can't handle. And like, because part of being a great player, you got to have an ego.

You got to have an ego. Everybody who's great at something has an ego. Well, that was like when Bird in his peak, the West Coast trip, because he only got to play those cities once. Then they all had a bunch of forwards that couldn't guard him. Yeah.

And the whole trip, he's like, I'm lighting it up for two weeks. Jordan was the same way. Like, this is my one chance to go through the West Coast and basically lay the smack down on an entire coast. And the same thing when the Lakers came East, when Magic and those guys came East. They're like, we want everybody to know we're the Lakers. And every time the Lakers came to town in Philadelphia,

it was like, man, these dudes trying to kill us. They want everybody to know they're the Lakers. But that's part of responsibility when you're great at something. I knew we were in trouble with Davis last year when he put on all that weight. He put on the muscle. And it's like, why are you changing who you are? We saw you in the bubble.

You were dominant. You had a chance that you were flirting with borderline pantheon stuff, and then you sucked in the last game. Then you go back to the New Orleans. Everything's above the rim. Everything is playing off Rondo. Everything is attack the rim, attack the rim, and then his little 10-foot game.

When I see him, I went to the game Thursday night. He's just perfectly happy to just chuck up a 20-footer and not try to take advantage of like, he's got these McHale arms and he's got drop steps. He's got all these things he can do and it doesn't seem like he wants to tap into it sometimes. Well, I think the one

thing that surprises me and shocks me is that he's around LeBron. LeBron talks about he spends a million dollars on his body a year. Yeah. He's like, yo, man, you're going to get to play with that dude?

Yeah. Like, I'm going to learn. I'm going to be like a sponge to LeBron. I'm like, yo, man, whatever he's doing, because no disrespect, I don't think AD is going to be in the league at 40 like LeBron is after 20 years because he's been injured so much.

But if I play with a guy like LeBron, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do what he does. Whatever he has for breakfast, I'm eating it. Whatever he has for lunch, I'm doing it. Whatever he has for dinner, if he's going to lift weights, hey, man, can I tag along with you? I mean, that's what I would do.

That's what part of disappoints me. Yeah, that was the Redeem team, Doc. They had that part about when Kobe shows up and the young guys like Carmelo and LeBron and Wade, and they were coming back from the club and Kobe was going to work out at like 5.30 in the morning. And they were like, wait, what's going on? And by Friday, they were working out with him.

And then, you know, they go through that experience. They go to the next season. LeBron wins the MVP. Wade has the best season he's ever had. Carmelo almost makes the finals. And it was all because by osmosis, they were around that. I felt like that was happening for Davis the first year, the first full year he had with them.

But now, I don't know. And it seems like you were pretty good about what you talked about with Westbrook. Although, I think Westbrook gets some of the blame because he that's what the money's for like he opted in he knew it was a bad situation he took it but i do think he's been scapegoated with those guys they've tried to trade them all summer everyone knows lebron is gonna stamp any sort of trade that's gonna happen they picked him they were the ones that wanted to trade for him and it's one it's definitely the whole thing is one of the weirdest NBA situations we've had in a while. Well, the last two years, you know, last year was Russ and Frank Vogel.

Right. How is that Frank Vogel's fault? I know. He won a championship a couple of years ago. But yeah, unfortunately, Bill, we're in a situation now where somebody has to take the blame. It's really sad and unfortunate, but that's just how it is now. And Russell is a scapegoat. It's funny.

None of those guys on that team can shoot, but you only hear about Russell. Because that's the narrative now. Yeah, Patrick Beverly's throwing up grenades. Those things are like, this is the side of the backboard. So is Lonnie Walker. Well, he could never shoot. Why'd they even sign him?

But you never hear about that. Yeah. You know, I think the Lakers, they've been 10 for 50, like three games in a row that they've lost. I'm like, Russell didn't shoot the other 40, did he? You know, but that's the only narrative.

So how does it play out then? What do they do with it? Because to me, it seems like it's heading toward leave of absence. Russ is going to take a week off, and then we'll just never see him again, and they'll trade him in like February. And I think Utah is going to be the team they trade him to. Well, I think, first of all, you got to do something

because there's too much distraction. First of all, I feel bad they unbroke his spirit. They did. I said the first time, I said, man, I feel bad for Russ. They unbroke his spirit because he don't play the same. He don't have the same joy. And you can just see it in his thing. He don't have the same joy anymore.

But you know what? They got to move on. Whether they send him home and pay him. The Rockets did that with John Wall last year. You can't do that though because you could do that, but you have to turn him into an asset because I think they made that deal with LeBron, right?

If you do this extension, we will trade Westbrook. But you can't give up a lot to get him. No, but they have the 27 and 29 firsts, which everybody wants because they're one of the most erratic organizations in the league. So you want their

picks. You want to trade with the Kings. You want to trade with the Lakers. There's certain teams. You just want their picks. I agree. But if you're one of those other teams, well, Russ is gone after this year. I'm not going to give you anything. I'm going to give you junk. I mean, because, yeah, of course they want those picks.

No, but wait, there's the Wimbanyama piece to it, though. If these teams, Wimbanyama and Scoot. They don't even have their pick next year. The Lakers don't. No, but I'm saying if you're Utah, you're almost trying to make your own team worse this year because it gives you a better chance to get those guys right. You watch Utah.

They have like professional basketball players. You probably should start three and oh, if you're trying to tank. Well, that's the thing. So you, Danny Anchaston, like throw his body in front of me. It's like, oh my God, Jordan Clarkson, Kelly Olenek. What have I done? These guys are playing too well. Yeah.

I was like, wait, it's two teams, the three and oh, the Blazers and the Utah. They're like, what are y'all doing? Shouldn't y'all be tanking right now? Well, have you watched the Blazers? I thought they were going to suck, and they don't. Dame looks like he's back. They have speed and wings. But, you know, I

thought they would suck too, but man, Dame is just a hell of a player. And I think, you know he's doing what he's doing see that's the thing if your best player won't let you tank you can't tank but dame's out there dropping 40 and playing hard the rest of the guys got no choice they're like yeah damn dame ain't taking right it's so so i don't know how this thing gonna turn out for them to be honest with you we got a long season i don't overreact after three games but as long as dame is playing they're gonna be competitive well here's i thought they're gonna suck i thought the kings would be

that kind of sneaky team and then you watch the blazers yeah what was i thinking with the kings i should have known they're the kings i should have known. They're the Kings. I should have known. You know, Bill, I was really shocked. I watched the score that first game the Kings played. I'm like, this is a game they got to win. Right. And they blew it crunch time. And they blew it. And I says, oh, man, these might be the same old Kings.

I was like, that's a game you gotta win like people like okay the kings this is because i've been wrong like 12 years in a row saying this is year they're gonna make the playoffs right and this year i'm like okay they got a new coach in there mike mike's a good coach i like the uh the keegan kid i said i like i do i like keegan and then they come out the first game at home and it's season open and lose. I know. I'm not giving up on them yet, but it was...

This league comes down a lot of times to... It's a dick-swinging contest between the two crunch time guys, right? And Portland, they beat Sacramento. They have Dame. Portland in that Lakers game, they have Dame. That's a game you got to win. I agree. You got to win that game because when the season

first starts, there's always optimism. I tell people, that's why you can't go by last year in any sport because we as players, we always think we got a good team to start the season. You don't realize your team sucks until you start sucking.

And I tell people all the time, I say, I know that sounds stupid, but even when I was on teams in Philly that sucked, I didn't know they sucked halfway through the season. Because I was saying from an ego standpoint, I'm like, I'm a great player. We're going to win some games.

And then halfway through the season, you're 500. I'm like, man, we don't even have, we don't have win some games. And then halfway through the season, you're 500. I'm like, man, we don't even have, we don't have a good team. So that's why you have to be really scary at the, at the beginning of the season saying,

because all your, all your ideas about a team is going back. What happened last year? Yeah. And last year has nothing to do with this year. Well, I look at the Sacramento situation. All the pieces

are in place, and you go through the teams, the swing teams that could go either way, and it's like, does Fox have it or not? We've been with Fox now for five years. Does he have it? Can he go toe-to-toe with Mitchell in a close game? Or, Dane, people like that? Or is he like that one level below?

And that's my fear with them well I'm disappointed in him I thought by now he'd be an all-star I did a commercial with him probably close to 10 years ago but they want to know like we're gonna make

him the next face of your shoes I'm like oh oh, yeah. I love that kid. I think he's going to be a great player. And 10 years later, probably seven, eight years later, probably, like, we never even mentioned him anymore. Yeah. And I'm like, yo, man, what the hell going on? I'm not out there in Sacramento.

I don't know what's happening. But 10 years, I think it's I don't know what's happening, but 10 years, I think it's probably some eight, somewhere in there, I was like, I would love this kid to be the next face of my shoes, because I think he's going to be a star. And now, all these years later, I'm like, what the hell going on?

You know, one thing I was thinking, and I think the last time this happened was kind of your peak. The league is so freaking deep now. They have so many good players. You watch opening night and even the crappy teams, like the Eastern Conference teams that always suck, right? Orlando and Detroit, Washington.

They have good players. You look around and you're like, oh, Bradley Beals on this team, Bankero and Franz Wagner on this team. And we had a dip in the mid 2000s, especially where people were making all-star teams. You're like, that guy made the all-star team or this guy's a third team NBA.

Now I feel like we have depth with the stars. So maybe it's harder for somebody like Fox to stand up. Yeah, but the team should be doing better because how many years in a row? It's probably 10, 15 years in a row they've been in the lottery, correct? 2006.

I mean, so... This is year 17. And see, that tells me they don't know what they're doing, Bill, because... I would say that's fair. No, because no, I tell people

that not just basketball in every sport. Yeah. I tell people if you suck all the time, you have people who don't know what they're doing because sports have sports does one thing differently than any other occupation in the world i mean you think about this if you go to law school if you're the best lawyer you're gonna go

to the biggest firm if you're the best doctor you're gonna go to the best hospital and get a great job. Sports is the only profession in the world. They say, you know what? You suck. But you know what we're going to do? We're going to let you pick first out of all the new guys coming in. Every person is going to be like, oh, that's fair. You should at least be getting good players. I tell people, like, if you get to pick anywhere early in a draft,

you might not be getting LeBron or Kobe or Michael Jordan. But if somebody gives you all the data every year and say, you get to go first, you should be getting better as a team. Right. You know what it's like if you and I were playing blackjack every weekend in Vegas and losing, and then Vegas said to us, you know what? We feel bad. We're going to let you hit until you get to 25. Everyone else get 21.

You get 25. We're like, great. This is a huge advantage for us. And then we still lose for another 12 years it's us yeah at some point it's like i can't even win when it's 25 yeah i so so it just shows you how in help a lot of these sports teams and it's across the board yeah in every sport i'm like wait a minute man we let you pick first in football. We let you pick fifth in football. You can, we let you go number five or seven or 10. You couldn't find a guy who should, first of all,

every first round draft pick should be a starter in my opinion. Yeah. It should be at least be a starter. Like I say, you don't have to be an all-star. Well, if you pick it in the top 10 to 15, the guy should at least be an all-star one or two years but if you're picking guys in the first round

and in football and other sports second round and third round should be guys who are serviceable and good players I would say for NBA like top 10 pick that guy should at least be an above average starter or you've done a bad job.

Oh, easily. I'm being nice. Yes, you are being nice. But what we see with the NBA is they'll take swings at the potential guys, right? And sometimes it works out. Like I think Sharp on Portland, I'm intrigued by him. But that's also, we've seen it go the other way where that guy's out of the league in three years. But that's because they hired these guys,

these analytical guys. Oh, yeah. And to me, people think I hate analytics. And I says, I don't hate. I said, well, I kind of do hate analytics.

But the reason I hate analytics, you can't build your team through analytics. If you go back and look at the last 30 years, name me a team that won, other than the Pistons, that didn't have a top 20 player on their team when they won. Right.

So I hate when these guys, you can't build your team through numbers. Well, you can't build a culture through numbers is the bigger thing. You cannot. That's the thing everybody misses with basketball. And I want to, let's take a break because I want to talk about Philly. But the culture thing is so important with the Philly conversation. But quick break.

When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all.

Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up?

Really? Really, really. Ugh. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinx. You guys were hard on Embiid last year. Yes. Which I thought was one of the better TV segments because I think one of the reasons I love your show and a lot of people love your show

is when you criticize people, for the most part, it comes out of love of basketball. And you guys who have seen it all as great players and then how you feel other people are handling either the opportunity they've been given, the talent they've been blessed with, all of these things and whether they're reaching their potential with it and however that goes. So when you guys were hard on Embiid, it was fair. And it was interesting to hear him react to that. I look at this Philly situation.

You mentioned the process before the break. You start, you're just collecting assets. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It doesn't matter if you win or lose. And this goes on for five, six, seven years, right? And then everybody's like a soccer mom in an eight-year-old game where everybody's doing great.

It's fine. It's fine. It's good. And Embiid becomes the product of that whole thing, right? So last year, I feel like, oh, he finally get it. Like he had a chance to win the MVP. He was in shape. He was awesome.

And then this year you watch, and I don't, look, he said he had planter for Shidester in the off season. We never heard that until this week. Doesn't look like he's in shape to me. Didn't look like he was in shape at the Celtics game. Didn't look like he was in shape over the weekend. Doesn't seem like he's happy with Harden.

We've had guys try to exit that situation like Simmons did. And to me, it's just, it goes back to the culture. And it's like 10 years of this culture of everything looking great on paper versus what it takes to actually have a great team what do you see when you see the Sixers well I said right away the first night the Sixers in trouble I said Ernest is at the one game I said yeah they're in trouble I said Ernie this looks all we did was watch james harden dribble and go one-on-one and then we put the stat up he dribbled 585 times like that's not basketball i said i said first of all and doc rivers actually said it because we had him uh again he says we got to establish joel mb that's

his i said you mean the best player on your team no shit shit. I said, James, we got to get Joel Embiid going because he's the one who gets the double. He gets Tobias going. He gets Maxie going. If you just stand out there and dribble, you're just getting James going. And he had a good game on, but everybody else just stood around and watched him.

It really hurts Maxie and Tobias Harris. And they haven't figured out how to coexist together. It seems like they just take turns instead of just playing basketball. Which has never worked in basketball history. It's never going to work. I said, yo, man,

get that ball to Joel Embiid. He's going to score, get foul. You know, what me and Shaq said to him was, number one, yo, man, why are you shooting jumpers threes? You're the best big man in the game. You're 7'3". Yeah, and you're the best big man in the game. Every time you shoot a jumper or a three, the guy said,

thank God that big monster didn't come down here in the paint. And he actually listened to us and actually maybe should have won MVP. Like, yo, man, every time you shoot a three at the jump, the defense is saying, man, we got to wait in. So he goes in the paint, dominates, dominates, almost wins MVP. And then the Harden thing came up. If I could give him some advice right now, I'd be like, yo, man, screw all this other stuff. Just go out there and dominate

the paint every night and let the chips fall where they may. Y'all might not be good enough, but the key to being a great player and a superstar, you got to make sure you ain't the reason y'all losing. That's

the number one thing. You got to make sure, like, hey, yo'all losing. That's the number one thing. You got to make sure like, hey, yo, man, I'm out here killing people, kicking ass. I'm going to win MVP. I'm not the reason we losing. That's what I would tell Joel. Just dominate everything. Like I say, is the team good enough?

We'll see that later in the season. But the number one thing you got to be able to say is like, hey, I'm not the reason we losing. Let me give get an example. They were beating the hell out of me my last two or three years in Philly. And I finally had had enough. I said, yo man, I'm not the damn problem here. I said, I'm not the damn problem. I said, you guys are killing me. I said, I'm out here being in the, I mean, I would think I was in the MVP like 10 years in a row.

I said, I'm in the top five for MVP every year. I know I'm a hell of a player. I'm playing with guys who can't play dead. And I'll tell you a funny story too, Bill. I had got arrested for fighting in Milwaukee. And I went on trial that week. So I was in Milwaukee all week. Obviously, I got acquitted.

The evidence against me was three dudes who were weightlifters who tried to beat me up in an alley. And I clocked one of them. And the fight was over. And that's not I got naked because it was a snowstorm and I was trying to improvise like the marines so I got naked except for my pants and punched this dude they thought I was crazy I was just I thought I was gonna get my ass kicked to be honest with these were three pretty big old dudes but once I started taking off all my clothes and getting naked and hitting this dude, the other two got away. But what's funny,

we spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers. I was like, hey, I don't want to alienate the fans. They've been great to me. But we need to come up with a letter. When this trial is over, we're mailing this thing to the 76ers.

I ain't never, never playing in this city again. Yeah. And I said, so we worked on this letter all week. I want to make it. I just told him like, Hey,

I don't want to involve the fans. You guys probably got another two months. I ain't never coming back there. And so I get home Friday night. I remember I was buying drinks on the plane. I got to quit it that morning. I jump on the last flight to Philly. I'm buying drinks for everybody on the plane.

It was like a crappy plane. They got no big planes going from Milwaukee to Philly. I get back to my house. I had ordered a set of ping golf clubs in Phoenix like five months ago. We're going to mail the letter Monday morning. I get a call Sunday afternoon from the 6th of Santa. I've been treated. And I said, where?

They said, Phoenix. I says, wow. Guess these golf clubs going to come in handy. That's actually a true story. And they called me Sunday afternoon. I've been traded to Phoenix. Monday morning, I was on a flight to Phoenix. Well, wait, you left out the part where you're like,

you traded me for Kevin Johnson? And you're like, no. And they're like, no, he's still there. We didn't even get Kevin Johnson to trade. We traded you for 28 cents of the dollar because we're dumbasses. I said, who did y'all trade for me? He says, Andrew Lang. Tim Perry.

Tim Perry and Jeff Hornacek. And how many first round picks? They were like none. They were like zero picks, actually. Wait, I thought it was four players. Was it three? It was three. Three.

And I was like, wait, I still got Kevin Johnson and Dan Marley? Oh, we good now. I remember sitting with my agent because he's on. I said, who are they trading me for? He told me the three guys. I said, wait. Oh, we're going to make the finals. I said, I got Kevin Johnson and Dan Marley.

Oh, we're good, man. We're good. That's what Durant was trying to pull off last summer. He's like, can you guys do the, the Hornacek Perry Lang trade where I go to a contender, but they keep all their best players. You know, it's so funny living in Phoenix. These idiots like calling me every day saying like,

uh, what do you think? I says, what do you mean? What do I think? I says, this is what they want a lot. I said,

for Durant, Durant. I says, they're like, yeah, they want a lot. I says, this is what they want a lot. I said, Durant, Durant. I says, they're like, yeah, they want a lot. I says, do they want Booker and Chris Paul? They're like, they're like, no, they don't want them. I said, well, give it to them. I says, Chris Paul, Katie and Booker. Yeah.

We're filling the rest. We're good. I says, with those three guys, I said, Chris is going to be the leader because Chris is the best leader I've seen in NBA in a long time. I said, that takes the responsibility away from Katie where he can just play basketball. I said,

guys. He said, well, they want Aiden and Bridges. And I said, and some picks. And I says. And some picks. And I says, wait a minute. Y'all ain't did that trade already? I says, you going to give it to keep Crowder, who I like? I says, I'm trying to think who else.

I says, a couple. I says, yo, man. Cam Johnson. Wait, we keeping Cam Johnson too? Yeah. I says, Aiden is a good player British is a good player they ain't KD and they ain't never gonna beat KD

I says y'all should have did that trade last week where did you stand on the Celtics with Jalen for KD let me tell you something their picks involved too what that's it let me tell you something that's it let me tell you something and Derek wait that's it

give me KD and Jason Tatum for the next five to seven years we gonna win the championship see this is where you're gonna think I'm crazy I would rather have Jalen Brown than Kevin Durant. And all the assets it would have taken to put a Jalen Brown in a trade. I love Jalen Brown. I think he's great off the court, on the court, and he's a great number two guy. He plays great with Tatum. I like what we have. You don't think Tatum and KD can play together? I do, but I liked what we had. I felt like we almost won the title last year.

We weren't even ready to win the title. That was a fluke. You got it, Bill. That's fine. If Curry doesn't go to another level in the fourth quarter, I know it was a fluke. Middleton got hurt. I get it.

Thank you. You're not going to beat Middleton. So they took seven games without Middleton. So I think that was a little bit of fool's gold, to be honest with you. It might been it might have been but you know what Jalen's a hell of a player but I don't know if he's ever going to be on KD's level I just

my question with KD is and I genuinely like KD I've spent time with KD I've done podcasts with him I really genuinely like him why isn't he ever happy? That's the part I don't get. I call him Mr. Miserable. Like,

he's a great player. You know what's so funny you said that? Everybody likes KD. Everybody. He's a great guy. But he's always miserable. I just don't understand why he was miserable in Golden State. And I get all the reasons, right?

It's Curry's team. What about Oklahoma City? Well, he's playing with Russ. I get that part. I think you can only play with Russ for so many years before you start losing your mind. But he owned the whole state. I get it.

He never been anywhere. You get this. You're from Alabama. But I'm telling you something. The love that they have for that kid in Oklahoma City. You know, maybe you do something with Russ down the line, but they've never loved a player like they love KD. I mean, remember he was crying at the press conference and everything?

It's tough. Yeah, but man, I don't understand why he's always unhappy. I don't get, because the first time we did, like we spent real time with him during that first Warriors season, he was the happiest. He was like, this is how I think basketball should be played. I can't believe how much fun I'm having, all that stuff. And then it flipped.

To me, that makes me think something else is going on because that team probably, they probably have two or three more championships by now. I know. I mean, they were unbeatable. No, I think we know what was going on. I think he felt like he was the best

player on the team that won the title, but it was still Steph's team. And at some point, you kind of want to be like, I want my own team. I want to prove I can do this as my lead guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that goes back to my point. Everybody say they want that shit, Bill. Until they get it. Until they get it.

Like, everybody's not a number one guy who can handle the mental pressure. Charles didn't win the championship. KD, remember they said the same shit about Michael Jordan. Did you just go third person on yourself? No, no, no. No, no, no.

I'm just saying, that's the way this thing works. Hey, dude, I'm with Michael Jordan in his prime. They're like, oh, he's a great, great player, but he can't win. Every great player in the beginning, they make you a great player. Then they change the rules. Oh, he's a great player. Then they change the rules. Oh, he's a great player, but he can't win. Yeah. That happened to LeBron.

Right. Remember? Like, oh, he's great. He's great. Oh, he can't win. And LeBron is the person who changed the entire narrative. He's like, oh, well, let me go somewhere where I can win. That's the reason I don't compare him to Michael Jordan.

Michael Jordan says, there's a wall over there. I'm coming through that wall. I'm coming through the damn Pistons. I'm coming through the Celtics. I'm coming through the Pistons. I'm coming through Magic Johnson. That's why I always differentiate when I try to compare LeBron to Michael. LeBron says, yo, man, you guys are killing me on television.

I've never given into that narrative. A guy had to win a championship because it's a team game. Well, you know more than anybody, that 93 season especially, we've talked about it in past podcasts, but you did every single thing you possibly could have done. You're going against Jordan at the absolute apex. But that's all you want

though is an opportunity. That's all you want. But the media has changed the narrative. If a guy don't win a championship in his first five or six years, he got to go. I'm like, what's wrong with fighting through stuff? So who's the next guy with that?

Because Durant, technically, he has the two. So he still gets that. He was the best guy in two title teams. Bill, we don't count those. You know better. Come on. I'm counting. That 2017 team was unbelievable. Hey, let me tell you something. And this one, me and Kevin got into it last year.

It's the players, man. You have like LeBron, and LeBron said it. Two people said something that we all You have, like LeBron, and LeBron said it. Two people said something that we all know as players. LeBron said, I had to win one,

not in Miami. And Kobe said something. He says, I got to win one without Shaq. Right. He says, and all the players know it, and listen,

I love the media. We're all part, they're part of our same team. The referees, everybody. We're part of a family. But when it comes to the players, especially when you're on levels, like I'm not in the same room with other guys in the Hall of Fame. I'm in the Hall of Fame, but there's different levels.

And that's just the way it is. I don't get to change the narrative. Like when I'm in the Hall of Fame, yeah there's different levels. And that's just the way it is. I don't get to change the narrative. Like when I'm in the Hall of Fame, yeah, I'm a Hall of Famer. I know I was a great player, but there's another room where certain guys are in it. Yeah, like I did my basketball. I did my pyramid for my book, right? It was five levels.

The top level was like the top 14 guys, right? And those were all the guys that had been not only great, great players, but had been the best guy on the title team, right? Like Moses needed 1983. He's not in that final level, right? Then it's like Moses was awesome, but he's not quite there.

Elgin Baylor never had it, right? And then you look at somebody like Steph, who even though he was on the three title teams, but then last year cemented it. He needed it last year. Yes, he did. And listen, that's the way this thing works.

Yeah. You win a title when Andrew Wiggins is your second best player. I'm putting you in the top level of whatever I'm building. You're now there. Especially when Steph had never won the finals MVP. But where we disagree is I have Durant on the top level. I think he's one of the

15, 16 best ever. I do. I think he's the best scoring forward I've ever seen. That's probably the truth in that. But the truth of the matter is when he's been the best player and a leader, he hasn't had success. First of all, they got swept last year.

But they almost beat Milwaukee. I mean, toe on the line, basically. That was as close as he's going to get. Almost beat them, but didn't. Almost. But also, they got swept last year. Well, last year was embarrassing. And, you know, I wanted to ask you about Kyrie, actually,

because people talk about him reverentially. And then when I point out accurate things, people are like, you just hate Kyrie because he quit the Celtics. You just don't like him because of that. I was like, I just don't know if he's that top level anymore because I went to those games in the Celtics sweep and he was great in game one, then screwed up the game in the last minute because he was playing hero ball and he sucked in the last three. It's like when people say, oh my God, Duran and Kyrie together, these

two superstars, like, are we sure Kyrie's a superstar at this point? Or is he just a really good offensive player? He doesn't play defense. He's completely erratic. Do you trust him? Do you trust him to show up to work week after week? I don't. Listen, he's kind of, in our opinion, in the same boat as KD, but not

on the level because KD's a better player. The Cavs were winning 20 games and he was the best player. Then he's like I don't want to play second fellow to LeBron oh you want to be the man and then it stinks in Boston

and then they get rid of him and they actually do better without him yeah and now you see this thing has just been a clusterfuck in

in Brooklyn so other than that one shot against the Cavs thing has just been a clusterfuck in Brooklyn. So, other than that one shot against the Cavs, against the Warriors, his resume is spotty, too. I'm giving him the last three games of the 16

finals, because LeBron and Kyrie were awesome those last three, and I thought he was good in the 2017 playoffs. But still, that was LeBron's team, though. Yeah. So, like I say, but when he's been the best player, like I say, they were winning 20 games when he was... He's the number one pick in the draft.

They were winning 20 games a year. Yeah. And then when LeBron comes back, and the fact that Kevin Love also was there. But I can say, every time you say some of these young guys, I'm like, nah, man. When you're talking to the players, these are the rules. Everybody can be a bus rider. But when you're the bus driver, the stress and all the stuff that goes with it,

nobody said, and I use this as an analogy. I love me some said Sabalos. Nobody ever said said Sabalos didn't win the championship. Nobody ever said Oliver Miller didn't win the championship. When, when, when, when LeBron was in Cleveland, how many times did y'all say Boobie Gibson didn't win the championship or it Goss. Cause it's like, Oh, LeBron's a great player, gibson didn't win the championship or agoska's it's like oh lebron's a great player but he can't win the big one that's just a ruse kevin garnett was another one yes who

was on the worst minnesota teams year after year after year and then it became a kg i probably have a column in my old archives kg don't know if he has it yeah but then you go back and look at the teams he played for. It's like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. Put them on a good team. But then he had to come through to what you did.

Yeah. Same thing with Paul Pierce. Yeah. You're like, yeah, they gave him Katie and reality. He won a championship. That's why,

that's why I don't overreact when guys win the championship. I said, well, it's a, it's a team game, but like a lot of these guys who didn't win the championship, they were going out there.

I always tell people, we were good enough to get shitty draft picks. You know, I was like, yeah, we were going to be 500. I'm going to win 500 when I was in Philly. We're not going to be in the lottery.

The only time we were in the lottery because the Cavaliers made a bad trade and gave us the number one draft pick. But once I became a star, like, yeah, I'm going to win half these games. But we might can win a round in the playoffs, but we weren't contenders. But like, I judge guys by that.

Like, you don't have to win a championship, but your team can't always stink. Well, there's two pieces. One is that, and the other is, if you have a reasonably good team, that should be 50 wins. No question. Jokic last year was playing the Washington Generals,

48 wins. It literally didn't matter who's on his team. He's winning 48 games. But I always told people, like, you know, man, one stat I'm proud of, I never got swept in a seven-game series. Is that true?

100%. And me and Shaq fight all the time. He got swept like four times. I said, you call yourself a great player? You let somebody beat you four days in a row? I said, no, hell no. Shaq got swept a bunch of times. I think he got swept like five times. I know he got swept like five times. I know.

A couple times he had Kobe with him and they got swept. Yeah. He got swept in the finals twice. One thing I'm proud of, man, nobody ever beat us four in a row. But I always told those guys in Philly, we can't beat the Celtics. We can't beat the Pistons. We probably can't beat the Bulls. But I can win us one series. I can win us a game or two in a series.

But no, we're not getting swept here. I can dominate one game. Before we go, I have to ask you about the Philly sports resurgence. We have the Phillies. Go, Phils! The Phillies in the World Series. The Eagles are undefeated and the Sixers are dog shit. It's Philly.

It never rests in Philly. Well, you know, it's interesting. So my home is in Scottsdale, but I live in Philly all summer. Yeah. So I just moved back to Phoenix last week. And man, it's been great. Well, first of all, the Eagles have been great for like six, eight weeks now. But what's happened the last three weeks with the fields?

Because first of all, I didn't think they could beat St. Louis. I definitely didn't think they could beat the Braves. The Padres was 50-50. Yeah. But man, the thing that's crazy about it, I don't know if they can beat the Astros. I mean,

man, the Astros, I was, you know, we're in the studio with the guys and they're like, and this is like for the last two months, they're like, nobody can beat the Astros. I'm like what? They're like Pedro

Curtis Granderson. They're in the studio Jimmy Rollins so we see them like they're right next door. They're like you know man nobody can beat the Astros I'm like and I'm not what about the Braves? I thought it was going to be the Braves

I'll be honest with you. They're like, nobody can beat the Astros. And now my Phillies are going to get a chance to shock the world. And let me tell you something. If they win, it would shock the world. Well, they're super fun to watch. Bryce is having like a, I'm finally reaching all my natural potential I've ever had in my body moment. I don't know.

They have three, four, and five at home, which I think if you steal one, that's going to be a really hard place to play. See, I hate that format. You don't like the 2-3-2? I hate the 2-3-2 in any sport. Yeah. Because I think you put the road team

at a disadvantage. It's so much pressure on them to win one of the first two. But also, it's hard to beat any team three days in a row. It cost the 85 Celtics the title. I'm still bitter about it. We tied it 2-2. And then all of a sudden, Game 5's in LA. They win that.

Now it's 3-2. Come back. Mikael gets in foul trouble. We lose the title. Yeah, I hate 2-3-2. And the thing that pisses me off the most about 2's 3-2. Come back. Mikael gets in foul trouble. We lose the title. Yeah, I hate 2-3-2. And the thing that pisses me off the most about 2-3-2. Now, 2-3-2, they started changing it back in my day because we were flying commercial.

Right, and it was better for the media, all that stuff. I was like, yo, man, everybody got their own planes and shit now. Right. It's like a three and a half to four hour flight now with hors d'oeuvres. You got your feet up. There's no need to be doing 232.

Well, they got rid of it finally. They needed to. The 22111, Golden State, Boston, it was actually, I think, probably good for Golden State. But it's just a disadvantage for the road team. Yeah. My big thing, if

I can fix anything, I mean, they finally got rid of that terrible, the rule where you can foul somebody on a fast break, which was the dumbest rule. They finally got rid of that. Now we have fast breaks again. I would make it that you can't get a top three pick three years in a row. I think that's an easy fix. If you're that bad where you't get a top three pick three years in a row. I think that's an easy fix.

If you're that bad where you're getting a top three pick three years in a row and we can't relegate you like they do in soccer, then you can't benefit from this. Like OKC or Houston has a chance to get it three years in a row this draft. I'm against it.

I talked to the commissioner about I don't give you extra balls for losing. I thought that was the stupidest shit ever. Like, teams start tanking with two months to go. Yeah. And I was like, wait, y'all giving them an extra ball in the hopper? Which the hopper is the dumbest shit ever. Like, you spinning balls around in the air, anything can happen.

The team is in the lottery. You get one ball. You get every team in there gets one ball. That's the way I would solve that problem. I'm not giving you extra balls for losing. That's the stupidest shit ever. They've changed it seven times but they still

reward you for losing which is the stupidest thing ever that's one thing I would change the second rule I would change is you can't raise your ticket prices as long as you're below 500 oh I like that one

I think we should do that in every sport because some of these teams aren't trying to win. They're not trying to win. Baseball is probably the worst because they give you money for losing. But I would have a rule saying in any sport, if you're below 500, you cannot raise

your ticket prices because it ain't right. It's locked. Yeah, that makes sense. I know I had some Clipper seasons where they raised them. It was like, wait. Every year. Bear Davis is 250 pounds. Why'd you raise my tickets? I was like, wait a minute. This team has not been in a good

but we're raising ticket prices every year. No, no ticket prices. No ticket prices if you're below 500. Well, the last question, then we'll go. The media rights deal that's coming, which you know about because you mentioned at the top, and it's going to blow the salaries to a whole different stratosphere. We're going to have guys making $75, $78, $80 million a year.

We're going to have guys signing $400 million contracts. You were in the era. You were in the first era when guys started making a lot of money, right? KG signed that deal. You were at the tail end of it. But KG signed for $126 for six. You were still playing. The reason

I missed all the big money, my first agent stole all my money. Yeah. And so I ended up signing a 10 year deal. And so I had, how about this? I had the same deal my last four years in Philly, all four years in Houston, excuse me, in Phoenix, and my first two years in Houston.

Jesus. All because my first agent stole my money. And you wanted the security of a longer deal. That's like basically what happened to Pippin too. There were a couple of guys from your area. Exactly the same thing. Yeah. So me and Scott bothick both got screwed.

And then like two years into my deal, guys started making big money. And at that time, me and Michael were best friends. And we used to get together and talk. And he'd say, the number one thing we're never going to do is hold out a bitch about our contract. Like when I got traded to Phoenix, Dan Marlin and Kevin Johnson would make more money than me and I won MVP.

I never became a free agent in my prime because my first agent, I don't want to mention his name, Lance Lesnick stole all my money. Lance Lesnick stole all my money. You were getting at least endorsements though, right? I was getting

endorsements, but I probably got cheated out of probably a hundred, a hundred million dollars more. Cause at that point, cause I was only making about three or $4 million. I know that's a lot of money. The other guys were making like 20 million. Well, you wanted to time it for 95,

96. There was the teams really started planning for free agency with the cap out in Houston, made that money with the Knicks that year. Shaq signed with the Lakers. They like things started to shift with how they put teams together. I would say mid nineties. So if you'd been a

free agent, if I had to become a free agent at any time, like I say, I got MVP four years later. I would have been a free agent after my first four or five years in Phoenix. Can you imagine me being a free agent? Because like I say, and I still, after I signed that 10 year deal, I played four more years in Philly and I was playing well. And like I say,

the same thing, all four of my years in Phoenix, I was still under the same deal. So I never became a free agent. Well, so let's say these guys, let's say there's $400 million for five-year deals. Like that's the new max or 380, whatever. How's anybody going to be able to coach somebody who's making $80 million a year? I don't mean that as an old guy on the couch thing. I'm just like, I'm honestly curious. Like how does that happen? You know, first of all,

it's a very fair, legitimate question. You're at the mercy of the person. Well, first of all, all coaches have, well, not all of them, like Riley, Popovich. There's very few coaches who've had- I think Spolster got there.

Oh, Spolster got there. Yeah, but that's because he got Pat Riley upstairs. True. Yeah. But coaches, when money start going crazy, they're going to always fire coaches. But to answer your original question,

you're going to be at the mercy of your best player, because that goes back to this whole thing. We've been talking about bill. If your best player is an asshole you're in trouble as a coach right plain and simple well we saw even with the celtics like they get this new coach right before the season right they actually like this guy and it seems like they want to play hard for him but who knows could that shift in a month in two months and all of a sudden people get mad about this or that or whatever?

It's a variable. Well, the thing about him is nothing's going to matter with him until the playoffs. Yeah. And that's the one negative about his entire situation. The Celtics are going to have a good team, but

he's going to be judged on how they do in the playoffs. So he's in a really team, but he's going to be judged on how they do in the playoffs. So he's in a really awkward, unique situation. Yeah, they got a really good team and they're going to be successful, but unless they get to the finals and win it, he's going to be like,

oh, he didn't do anything that hasn't been done already. So he, to me, is in a really interesting situation. It seems talent-wise, it seems like Boston, Milwaukee, Golden State. I thought Denver had a chance to be there, but they're making me a little nervous how they started the season, so I'm not going to go there yet. And then the Clippers, who the hell knows?

I don't know what I'm getting from those guys. But who else would you throw in in that top group? Well, in the East, to me, I think Milwaukee and Boston. And that's it, right? Then it drops off. Well, listen, as I told you earlier, that team in Brooklyn. Yeah, you can't put them in there. You can't put them in, but you would not be shocked

if they started doing well. Like I say, they could get their coach. I would be shocked if they won three straight playoff rounds. I don't see it. I just don't. Yeah, I agree. Well, we don't know who's going to be coaching them because the first sign of trouble, Steve Nash is gone. Yeah. Well, same thing for Doc Rivers.

100% correct. I don't even think they wanted Doc Rivers to come back for this season. Hey, 100% correct. So, but in the West, man, the Kawhi situation is fascinating.

I picked him to win the West. I don't trust it. I just don't trust him. How many minutes is he going to play? The game I went to on Thursday night, he didn't play until

the five-minute mark of the second quarter. He hasn't played a year and a half. It's like, wait, you can't start a basketball game yet? What's going on? Well, the thing was, you saw the other night against Sacramento, he didn't play. Yeah, he was like, oh, rest.

I said, wait, he's been off for a year and a half and he's resting already in game two? He's had five years off over the last eight years. It's crazy. It's crazy. But I'll tell you this. I don't know about my sons. The second best... I don't know about the

Chris piece with the sons, because one of these years, it's like what we're seeing this year with Brady and Rogers. You just can't keep expecting old athletes to run it back and still be great. But he just got to defer to Aiden and Booker. What concerns me about my sons is I found out two weeks ago that

the coach and his second best player hadn't spoken since they got into a disagreement in game seven. I was like, whoa, what? I was like, you know, it's so funny. You know how you're watching these reporters and they ask Aiden, like, how's this relationship with money?

And he says, but we haven't spoken since game seven. And the guy's like, nice y'all got to fighting? I was like, they just gave you $200 million and you ain't speaking

to the guy who's paying you? Well, it's like In 1985, it's understandable if you and Billy Cunningham, because we didn't have text or email, but we have text now. How does Bonnie Williams not text him and be like, congrats on the new deal. Can't wait to coach you. Bill, let's say hypothetically

I hated you. If I had to come and see you every day, I got at least even if I'm faking it, say hello, correct? Yes, correct. Like, okay, let's say me and you work together. If we pass each other in the hall, don't you say hello? How you doing?

Hey, hey, hey, coach. I mean, like. how's your summer like everybody like at turner even if it's a janitor or a maid or something or how house i always say hello yeah out of common damn courtesy and decency i wouldn't walk by the janitor or somebody who does cleaning there and not say hello. Saying hello to somebody you see every day is just common sense one-on-one. Yeah, that made me nervous. I'm writing them off. I don't know who the second best team is. I'm studying intently because Memphis is more interesting than I expected. Memphis, well, you know who's fascinating? But they've already... The Pelicans is interesting, Bill.

Well, that's the wild card, right? If you told me that they... To me, way more realistic that they made either the conference finals or the finals in the Nets because they actually have crazy talent. They have role players. They got great role players. And they got three guys who are every night

got a really good chance of being the best player at their position. Yeah. But the thing that scares me now, the concussion thing with Ingram is you got to be careful with concussions. But Zion's just falling hard and he's out already. I'm like, that makes me scared.

It scares me. I'm like, yeah, everybody's got a sore back who plays basketball. Yeah. Like, wait, is every time he fall, he going to be out? Yeah, that wasn't great. I was very encouraged by what I saw from him, both how in shape he was and how athletic he was. That first night when they were killing the Nets, I was like, oh, my God. But Bill, every time you fall, you can't be hurt.

Yeah. Like sometimes they got to say, yeah, yeah, we know you're back hurting. Everybody out here has got a bad back. Game 32, 33, got slept on the bed wrong or fell in the game. Throw some icy hot. Get Shaq a shout out. Throw some icy hot on and get your ass back.

Get your ass back out there. Yeah, I mean, what's interesting about them is they don't have Ingram or Zion on Sunday. And it's like, all right, CJ, they have three dudes that can carry you in a fourth quarter who are, I don't know. I still feel like I wish Daryl had gotten McCollum for Simmons and kept

Curry. And I just think the Curry maxi McCollum thing. I, I just like that more than all rolling the dice with Harden. And I think Harden's impossible to play with. I liked living in Philly. They says, what do you think about Eric Gordon and Christian

Wood? I'm like, oh, we need to do that deal. Yeah, that sounds great. I said, let's do that deal just for Ben Simmons. Because you would still have Curry and your picks. And like I say, I said, wait a minute.

Why would you do, because I like Christian Wood. Yeah, you like him more than I do. I'm still a little dubious, but he has a good on Dallas. Yeah, but because he, listen, he's one of those guys, the further he slips down,

because when they paid him, see, this is one of the big mistake guys make just because you pay a guy you can't say he's one two or three on my team like but if he's three or four his value is gonna like oh him playing with harden and m, he's a really good number three. Yeah. So I think sometimes when guys pay people, they're like, well, y'all paid him. You just can't slot him in as a number one or two or three guy. Tobias Harris syndrome. Yes, exactly.

It's a great number four. Great number four. Great number four. But people don't understand sometimes, man. Hey, man, you just can't go by the numbers. Yeah. Well, in a couple of years, everybody will be making $50 to $80 million. It'll be impossible to say who was overpaid.

Hey, look, everybody deserves it. The league's doing great. The money's got to go somewhere. Hey, I never hate on it. I made more money great. The money's got to go somewhere. Hey, I never hate on... I made more money than Dr. J and Kareem and Wilt, and they were much better players than me. I just hate my agent stole all my money, so I didn't get some of that big money.

It was great to see you. I'm glad you're doing well. I was excited that you're going to be in our lives for the next few years. And say hi to our guys for us, Kenny and Shaq, everybody. You know how much I like you, brother. I got a lot of love and admiration and respect for you. It's always good to see you. You be safe and take care of yourself. All right. You too.

Okay. Peace. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Charles. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing. Thanks to Dylan Berkey and Steve Cerruti. always. Don't forget new rewatchables went up on Monday night. If you want to check that out, check out the hottest take as well. I went on that prestige TV is coming back this weekend in a big way with white Lotus and some other stuff. Plus we're doing Atlanta on there with Vane and Charles. So that is all I got for you. Check out the ringer.com great website. And I will see you on this feed on Thursday. On the wayside On the first side of the river I said I don't have

To ever forget