The Bill Simmons Podcast - Charles Barkley on Skinny Luka, the Eagles, LeBron, Jokic, Josh Allen, and His Uneasy ESPN Partnership

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Charles Barkley to make his annual NFL champion pick before discussing the second apron, the “best NBA player” argument, Barkley's ESPN partnership, and much more (3:53)! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Charles Barkley Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Steve Ceruti This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Don’t settle for just any insurance when there’s State Farm. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's going to be me in house on Thursday and maybe some other stuff. I might do a fourth podcast this week. I would keep an eye on that. there's so much content uh i thought the guests we're about to have charles barclay was just going to be the first part of the show but man once we got going it was almost uh almost an hour and a half we covered a lot we covered a lot of basketball his football he comes on every year to do uh football stuff uh make his picks he picked the eagles correctly last year but uh we ended up kind of diving into what happened at t-n t and what's going to happen with him at espn and inside the mba so uh always great to

have him. He's honestly one of my favorite, favorite people. And I was talking to Jimmy Kimmel once about this. I think he might be the best guest. If he's not in the best, if he's not the best guest, he's a one seed in whatever the tournament is. Just can go on any talk show, can come on any podcast. He's just the best. So anyway, he's the podcast today, the one and only Charles Barkley. It's next. We're going to take a break. We're doing a pearl jam. And then Sir Charles. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by Fandle and the NFL is back. And thank God. Fando has everything. got an awesome app. They have

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All right, Grandpa Charles Barkley is here. He's visiting the grandkids. He's getting ready for football. season. He comes on every year to make picks, and I think you picked the Eagles last year. And even if you did it, I'm going to say that you did. I did pick the Eagles,

and I'm going to pick him again this year, brother. Come back. Give me the back-to-back. Give me the explanation. Well, they got the same offense. I'm not related to this guy, but his name is Sequin Barclay. I'm going to claim him because he's a Barclay.

He is phenomenal. We still got the great wide receiver tandem. Got a great tight-in. Jailum's phenomenal. Now, defense is pretty young. You know, we're going through that transition. A lot of the older guys have moved on. But I think Big Fangio, by the end of the city, here, my guys rolling, man. I can't wait. What about the hunger issue after you've won the title? It seemed like to get hurt the Chiefs last year. The Chiefs were even complaining during Super Bowl week about, oh, man, it's starting to feel like old hat for us. Do you believe with football, when you're

having one yet, getting back? No. Well, they won three now. There's a little bit difference. Yeah. You know, when you won three, when we get to three, we might get a little bored, but we only have one. But, no, first of all, I don't believe that. Because if you get, because it takes so much to get to the NBA finals and to get to the Super Bowl, you don't take that for granted. Yeah.

I mean, you know, the great damnarino said one time, he says, you know, I got there my first year and then 10, 12, 13 years later, I never got back again. I remember having the same conversation with Allen Iverson. He's like, man, I thought I was going to be in the finals like three or four times.

I got there one time. I got there one time. You know, I said, so this notion that you're going to get back there, man, when you get a chance to win the Super Bowl, because Bill, let me tell you something. You have to be honest with yourself as a player, and it's hard to do. There's very few times you ask

have a chance to win the championship. I played in the NBA for 16 years. I think I had a chance to win the title four times. That's it. That's it. You know, Shaquille, who's one of the greatest ever, he played in the league for over 20 years.

He won four championships. So this notion that you're going to win all the time, no, man, when you've got a chance to win, you better win. Also, it's a percentages thing. If you're in a 30-team league, only one team could with the championship every year.

Somehow we've underrated how hard it is to win a championship and all the different things that can go wrong. We just saw last year with the Celtics. You know, you win the title and then your best guy gets hurt. Yeah, but it takes a perfect storm to win the champion. You've got to have a couple great players, obviously, but all your guys got to be in their prime, your role player, like the Devon Nuggets. When they got the best player in the world, then they got rid of all their guys.

on the bench. Yeah. They're thinking like, you know, we got Joker, we got Aaron, we got Michael Porter, Jr., we got Jamal. They got no bench. They got rid of KCP and Bruce Brown. Like, everything has to go well. I mean, think about this, though.

If the Eagles don't go out against Seekoine Barkley, they don't win the championship. Right. They do not. So, man, everything has to go well. Listen, I love the Eagles, no matter what. But if they don't go out and get Sequin, they don't win. I mean, say, hey, how about this?

Your Celtics, if they don't go out and get Prozingas, they don't win. Also, I don't want to leave out Drew Holiday. But if they don't go out and get Pazingas two years ago, they don't win the championship. Yeah, I said a couple podcasts ago that the Eagles reminded me of the 2000s Patriots with how they're putting the team together. be, like getting Jalen Carter with the ninth pick, right?

You go back and do that draft again. He should have gone in the top three. He falls to nine for a variety of reasons. Trading for A.J. Brown, trading and picked for him. Like, they've just consistently out thought teams, which I think you kind of have to do in the NBA now with all these new dumb rules they have. No, they don't have a dumb room. Hey, hey, hey, hey, cut the bullshit. They ain't got no dumb rules.

Let me tell you something. I'm so glad if you asked that question. Is this the second apron defense? No, no. Yes. Why did they have to come up with bullshit rules, Bill? Because all these guys want to play together and not compete. How many great players do you need on one team?

See, this is what balls me in my generation. They made up these rules, like these young people. Well, if I had a dollar for every time I heard the second apron, why did Adam Silver have to put the second apron in? Because LeBron got all his guys together. KD. want to go play with the Warriors, wait, y'all don't, like, don't want to win the championship and just compete against each other? Don't get mad at Adam Silver because y'all all want

to play together and dominate the league because y'all don't want to compete. I hate when I hear, man, the second apron's not fair. What do you mean it's not fair? If y'all stop all one to play together, we wouldn't have to make up bogus-ass rules to stop y'all from playing together. this is interesting because I completely disagree with you. Okay. I think they came up with it because the Players Association, I don't think realized that putting these rules in is going to make all these teams blow up

and you're basically going to be able to afford two or three guys max and then you're going to have to cut corners everywhere else. Like the Celtics, they had no chance of keeping Drew Holiday and Porzingis on this team of this nucleus. But Airbound that team was getting paid. Right. But I'm saying that, but now it, but they did. they did a really smart thing

with the way they stacked their roster. Like, OK, see now. They've made all of these really smart moves to put the roster they have together and they're not going to be able to keep it together even though they were smart. They're paying three guys. They're paying their top three players, Bill.

Like, listen, as much as I love LeBron, when he started doing this thing with Bosch and Wade, that was the first wave. The second way was KD going to the Warriors. Adam Silver had to do something. can't let one team hoard all the good players. I mean, they had Claystaff and Draymond. They didn't need KD.

Well, that's true. But that was a unique situation. To me, it's like in the mid-80s. What do you mean a unique situation? Well, because the cap spiked. That was the year like Joe Kim Noah and Al-Crab, all those dudes. They went there to dominate the league. The region of LeBron went to Miami so he can get him into Wade and Bosch together.

If all these guys didn't want to play together, Bill, Adam Silver wouldn't have to come up with this second apron thing. That's the only reason. Like, my sons, they were paying K.D. Bill and Booker each $60 million. How many good players do you need? You think I don't want to play. You don't think in my heyday I want to play with Katie and Bradley Bill?

like they're like we can't pay everybody they have to come up this is a bogus rule i agree with you but if all these guys don't want to play together adam silver wouldn't have to make up rules i was thinking it would be like in the mid-80s if philly had you and angriotony and mo cheeks and moses malone and dr jay no it'd be more like if michael jordan went to the septics to play with either if michael jordan who's the best player in the league three or four years before he wanted championship. If he had to went to Boston or went to L.A., that's what it would be like. Yeah, but you stepped on my joke that I was going to make. What's that? I was going to say it would be like if Philly, because they couldn't afford anyone,

had to trade Moses Malone for Jeff Ruin and Cliff Robinson. And then you were going to say, oh, no, that's actually what they did, and it was really stupid. I was just, that was going to be the joke I made. Let me tell you something right now. You know, I got a lot of love and respect for you. It's too soon for that bullshit. 39 years. Let me tell you something. I have been, I'm not, I'm being serious for one second now. I have been bitter and angry because that costs me at least one championship probably two.

Because I was just becoming a star. Yeah. We had the number one pick in the draft. And me and the guys went out to celebrate that night. This is night before the draft. And we got drunk as hell. Like, God, I'm like my third year in the league. I think that was the first time I became an All-Star.

I'm excited for the future. Was Tony, Andrew Tony's healthy at this point? No, he's out the league. But, like, we still got a good team. I got Hersey Hawkins, Johnny Dawkins. And the only thing we were missing was a big guy. I got Brad Doherty coming in for the next 10, 15 years. I like my chances against anybody, anybody.

Yeah. And we go out and celebrate. I get home around 2.30 in the morning. My phone rings around 5 o'clock in the morning. It's a great reporter in Philly, a guy named Phil Jassner. He said, Charles, I need to talk to you. I'm Phil. We've been out celebrating.

I'm getting Brad Dardy tomorrow. He's like, well, you better hold off on that. The Sixers made a trade. And I said, Phil, there's no way the Sixers are that stupid. You trade the number one pick in the draft. He says, and it get worse. I said, well, I can't get any worse than that. I said, let me do it.

So I said, this true story, Bill, I said, Phil, let me take a shower. So I want to make sure I got my head together. So I get in the shower, take a long, hot shower. I call field back. It's about 5.30 in the morning. I feel explaining me what's going on. He says, well, you guys have just traded the number one pick and the draft to Cleveland. I says, you trade the number one pick and the draft.

draft number one you trade the number one pick that's stupid then you trade him to the competition we have right i think if i remember correctly i can't remember i think we had just played we had just beating the calves in the playoffs i think we lost to the bulls that year if i remember correctly but we had just played the calves and beat him in a five-game series so not only you trade the number one pick you trade them to the competition then they traded for roi henson who's a good friend of mine who was a decent player, but clearly wasn't going to be Brad Dardy. I thought Brad Dordy was going to be an all-star for the next 10 years,

which he was basically. Then Phil says, oh, it gets worse. I said, what's worse than that? He says, you guys traded Moses Malone to the Washington and the Wizards to the bullets at the time for Jeff Ruling. I said, Jeff Ruling hadn't played basketball in two years. Brady a bad back. Uh, I said, didn't, didn't they try to trade Dr. Jada, Utah too?

That was the other thing that was floating around. I think there might have been a year before. It was some time, but it was just for this one draft. I says, so you're telling me. And I see, because I thought Moses, Moses, who was my mentor who helped me lose 50 pounds to become an all-star. I thought he'd been great for me and Brad Dordy for the next two or three years. Then he could walk away, retire.

Plus the league was big back then because you had Samson-Elaz-Juan, you had McKeown-Parrish. Oh, I had to beat Berg-Mahel. in Paris. And I was like, Jeff Ruling hadn't played in two years. And I think we and Jeff Rulam played two games together, Bill. So not only we trade

the number one pick in the draft for Roy Henson, we traded Moses to D.C. for Jeff Ruling and Cliff Robinson. And from that point on, we went in a spiral obviously downhill because

the Celtics were on. last legs. It was between the pistons and bulls come in. Between the, yeah. But,

you know, if they gave me Brad Dardy, I would have felt pretty good about myself because the Bullets didn't have anybody who can

handle him Brad Dordy. I don't know. They had Bill Cartwright. Right. I was like, no, I'm good. I'm good.

And, man, from that point on, I was so angry. Then I had, I had to spend another four years just sucking in Philly. And it was brutal.

It was brutal. But I blame the Sixth for making arguably one of the worst trades in NBA history. Well, so then you leave in 92, and I was going to ask you about this later, but let's do it now. So you're watching the Luca Donchich.

He's now skinny Luca. He's got the eye of the tiger. He wants to prove Dallas wrong. You were in this exact same spot when you were headed to Phoenix. You were in the dream team that year. You're in the best shape of your life. You're motivated.

You want to stick it to Philly. Do you see parallels when you're watching and reading the stuff about him right now? I think Luca is a great player. I think he's a lot younger than I was, to be honest with you. And listen, I, as long as I got some help, because it was interesting, I had zero idea where I was going to go. I remember, like, the last couple of years had me on the cover of the sport news. It had me like, it was like eight different teams trying to get me, and I didn't care.

I just wanted to get the hell out of there. And it was really interesting about the story, Bill. So that's summer I get arrested in Milwaukee for fighting. And I beat the, just America, I beat that rap. I've been arrested a few times with fighting, but I've never been found guilty. Let's get that out of the way. Oh, let me write that down.

Yeah. So we're in Milwaukee. I'm on trial for that week. I spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76th. There was no way I was going to get convicted because I didn't do anything. So me and my attorney, we spent the whole week. whole week, because I didn't want to piss people in Philadelphia off because Philly was great to me.

We spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76th. I said, basically said, hey, guys, I don't want to come out publicly because Philadelphia's been great to me. I love the fans. They've always been great to me, but y'all suck as an organization. I will never

play for y'all again, ever. Ever. So I get acquitted Friday morning Catch a flight back to Philly I bought a whole plane drinks bill I said y'all drink up Nobody knows what's going on I just got to quit it so I bought the whole plain drinks

I don't give a damn I don't know you could do that Yeah man well that's when you had to pay for drinks back in the day remember Like dude we flew commercial my first Four years in the Lowe's league. At that time, remember, well, first class got free drinks. You had to pay for them and coach. See, Bill, you've been famous and rich for so long. You forget about the old days. I just had never heard about anyone buying a plane drinks. Well, you had to pay for drinks and coach back then. Yeah. Yeah. But so. Well, that's good. That's a good. That's a nice thing you did that.

What's really ironic, which is really crazy. I get home that Friday night. I'd order to settle. Because every time you went to Phoenix, you got fitted at paying for a set of golf clubs. So I have forgot because I think we went out, well, we always went out west for Christmas, got the circus was in town in Philly. We always did a two-week trip doing Christmas, got the circus in town. They had that in Boston, too. The team would just disappear, yeah, for two and a half weeks. Yeah, so I get back home on a Friday night and me and the boys go,

There's a set of paying golf clubs on my front porch. I live in a gated community. They put a big box. I order these golf courts, these clubs back in December. I totally forgot I ordered the golf club. We go out and celebrate. Have a great weekend. Sunday night, I get a call from my agent.

It's Sunday night. We're going to release the letter Monday morning. I get a call from my age at Sunday night. You've been traded to the Phoenix Suns. You got like an 8 o'clock flight to Phoenix the next day. So it was really crazy. I got the golf clubs from Phoenix at my house that Friday. And we're going to release the letter Monday morning.

I get traded that Sunday night. I'm on an 8 o'clock fight to Phoenix that morning. I think it was like in August sometime, if I remember correctly. So you weren't angry about it You were relieved I was relieved that it was over Because I had to hear the rumors for three years Yeah and you knew it was coming

Whereas Luca had no idea it was coming And it seemed like he got blindsided for a month You know That's one of the weirdest things I don't even know how you keep that A secret Well you keep it a secret When it's the two GMs basically

Who know each other And that's 100% Yeah The two GMs But you know It's going to be interesting because I think the Rockets, FNB is going to be interested in next year

because I think the Rockets and the Nuggets probably had the best summer. Yeah. Obviously, getting KD is going to really improve the Rockets, but they finally got Luke with some help. I love what the Nuggets did this summer. Me too. But, you know, obviously if you got Luke and LeBron,

you're going to be competitive. but I don't think it's earth-shattering like the Lakers are going to win the West. Like I say, OKC ain't going anywhere. I think if you have to rank them in order, I'd go

OKC, Rockets, Denver. Interesting. Rockets over Denver. Well, man, I'm telling you, they are so deep. They didn't give up anything to really get KD.

Yeah, I would have Denver 2 and the Rockets 3. I would have Minnesota over the Lakers, though. I just think the LeBron, the age that he's at and the defensive stuff with them. Lucas in shape, that has another element.

Like I say, we're not going to sit. This ain't like March Madness. Well, when people be arguing over who's 69 and 70 bill. Right. I always love every year that Morris Madder

somebody's pissed off I'm like, yo man, nobody goes around saying I'm number 69 and 70. If you're not one in the top 68 teams, shut the hell up.

Don't be saying we should have got in. You played with a couple of DeAndre Aiton types in your career. I'm a little dubious to that one too. It's the guy

who's the super talented guy who's been disappointing everywhere he's been but maybe this time it'll be different, especially when it's the center. Those guys usually don't work out. No, you know

what's going to be different? he's going to be a free agent. Those are the most dangerous guys. One year. The guys who should be paid year by year? Well, like, there used to be a thing back in my day. One of the reasons NBA started cutting salaries and short-term deals. There were guys, and I can name some guys who played like crap for two or three years.

And then all of a sudden became Bill Russell their last year. Right. And then as soon as they signed that big deal, went back to the regular dude. So I think what the piggyback on your point, I think that's what, that's one of the things that's going to make the Lakers interesting because Aiden got a ball out this year because if he does not play well, he's not going to get no big deal. See, I think this. And let me tell you something.

If he don't ball out playing with LeBron and Luca, he ain't never going to ball out. Right. You talk about the perfect scenario, but he's going to be so dangerous this year because he's going to be a free agent. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fandual Football Fans. We're done waiting. Football's coming. It's coming Thursday. It's coming Friday.

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You wouldn't settle for anything less than the best for your team. So don't settle for just any insurance when it comes to getting the help you need. State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Well, the OKC, though, finding out after the playoffs that Jalen Williams had a fucked up risk the whole time, and we didn't even know about it, the fact that he wasn't healthy and still played well, the fact that they seemed like young, you know, I know you were at some of the games too. Like, they felt young and nervous in certain spots. And I think Indiana, there was a couple moments, especially game four, when they really could have potentially tilted that series, and they just kind of weren't good enough to do it.

I wonder if OKCC is going to be better this year. I never thought OKC was going to lose. The only time I thought they were going to lose when old boy switched up the starting lineup. And I was like, what the hell do you doing? We got rid of the sent, yeah. I was like, what are you doing? The only other person I saw do something that stupid was Avery Johnson.

If you go back, we went to. Oh, in 07, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We would go out, we went back. We were sitting there in the studio that night when it was like, what just happened right here? and we're like we're sitting in the studio like avid johnson changed up his starting lineup to go against don nelson small ball and like why would you do that you got the better one 67 games you're the number one seed and you change up

and when when boy did that this year i was like what the hell then they're losing up losing game one and then they blew them out in game two but it didn't matter because they got to split then they won game three And he finally went back to his enormous, is the lineup like, you know, man, you don't change your up thing when you got the best team. You've been the best team in NBA all season.

And I thought that was the only time I felt like, I was like, yo man, don't do that again. You almost cost your team the championship. But I said midway past all-star game, I started making a prediction. I said, nobody can beat this Oklahoma City team four times in a row. They're too good, man.

They're one of the deepest teams. we've ever had in the NBA. They remind me a lot of the old Pistons back in the Isaiah Thomas days. Like everybody talked about Isaiah and Joe Dumars who were great. But

Hardinstein is Lambert and then coming off the bench they had Sally, James Edwards, Benny Johnson, Mark Aguire. I mean, they had like 10 players like, and you can just plug them in.

and it was amazing to watch them play and they're going to be tough the only thing you got to worry about with them is they're going to get everybody's best slap next year and it's going to be a shock to their system they've been like the cool little kids for the last couple years they finally reached their potential

but now when you hunt it man it's a different animal it's a different animal sometimes the teams will go up a level defending like I remember the 92 Bulls were like that. After they got the first one, they were like ripping through the next year.

They had Michael Joy. I don't, listen, you know, all this stuff, you know, I love talking about players. And people always ask me the difference between Michael Jordan,

Kobe Bryant, and LeBron. Because those are three best players I've seen in my generation. The two most important players ever are Maddie Johnson, Larry Bird, but they made the NBA what it is today. But the three best players I've ever seen were Michael, Kobe, and LeBron.

And I'll tell you the difference in the three. Kobe and LeBron, excuse me, Michael and Kobe are dangerous. They'll kill your ass. LeBron's a nice guy. And I said, and that's not a knock. He's still great, great, great, but he's a nice guy. Michael and Kobe aren't nice guys. Like, they're different.

And the one thing about OKC, even though I think Shea is a great, great player, he to me is more like LeBron. He's a really nice guy. He's not out there trying to kill you. And I think that's the difference. And Jalen, they got a bunch of really, really good players, and that's fine. But I always tell people, the difference between Michael and Kobe, man, they are dangerous. I mean, they really wanted to kill you.

humiliate you. And there's not, like, I think Tom Brady's like that. Yeah. You know, he is. But, yeah. Like, and then I think there's very few players. All the great players I've ever met in my life, I think Michael and Kobe, Tom Brady,

Roger Clemens. Like, I think they, I think they want, who? Roger Clements. Yeah. Where did that come from? He'll throw it. your head in a minute. Right.

You're talking about mean-spirited great athletes. Yes. Like, they're going to do whatever it takes to win. They ain't worried about who liked them, and they ain't worried about your feelings. And there's nothing wrong with that. And, like, everybody's not built like that. I'm not even built like that. Like, I think I'm a pseudo-tuff guy.

Like, I want to win. But, like, I'm just not like those guys. Yeah, you're still the guy buying drinks for everybody on the plane. MJ would have been playing cards Yeah, and MJ wouldn't have paid for other people's drinks Just probably his and whoever he was playing cards with What you just laid out, I think about a lot Because the guy that, the all-time guy that everybody says

Was like that was Bill Russell Like he just wanted to destroy people Yes Everything he did was about Trying to get in somebody's head Intimid people like with Wilt He made friends with Wilt to try to get closer to him To make Wilt go less hard at them

when they played. All he wanted to do is win and take care of business and the games. The MJ stat that I love, I think it was like eight straight years. He never lost three straight games

ever. He just wouldn't accept it. There's nobody who's been wired like that. That's why he can sustain it. The closest I've seen is Kobe. I saw a picture today as a matter of fact. I was scrolling and they got a picture of Magic Johnson

that he was talking about Magic. He's talking about Michael's the best he's ever seen as far as talent, work ethic and mental toughness. Michael has this look in his eyes, Bill. And I said, that's Michael Jordan right there.

Like they had, and nobody else notices this because Magic is dribbling the ball. Michael's guarding him. But they got magic's quote. And the look in Michael's eyes, I was saying to myself, that's the guy.

That's the guy right there. I remember the picture. kind of looking up, and he looks like a serial killer. Like a serial killer. Like a serial killer. That's 100%. Let me tell you this quick Olympic story. So John Thompson, who's one of the greatest men I've ever met in my life.

So I get cut from the Olympic trials. And my coach, Sonny Smith, says, hey, I got a call from John Thompson. He wants to talk to you. And he says, come to my office at this certain time. So he puts him on his speakerphone. He said, Sonny, I just want you to know. Bobby was an asshole. Charles deserved to make the Olympic team.

He was the second best player there. Bobby didn't like Charles. He never told us why. Charles got down to the Final 20, but he was never, he was a second best player. He should have made the team, but Bobby just didn't like him. He was going to be, he was the second best player there. And I said, Coach, I really appreciate the call. And I want to thank you for the kind words.

And he said, he said, you don't, I said, why do he not like me? He said, he never told his why, but he just didn't like you. And I said, fine. So he hangs up. And Sonny says to me, wow, I'm a little surprised. I says, what do you mean? He says, I thought you were the best player in the country. I swear, I'm fucking not.

As a coach, I saw the greatest player I've ever seen in my life. We became friends. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. he's a little taller to me. He's about 6-6. He's jet black. He can out run everybody.

He can out jump everybody. And he is out here trying to go. And I said, he said, what's his name? I said, his name is Michael Joyden. He says, and I think Michael is either freshman or a sophomore. He wasn't as a coach. And I'm used to playing against Melvin Turpin, Sam Bowie, Kenny Skywalker,

Dominique Wilkins and those flowers at Georgia. I played against Akeem in college. So I'm not playing against I played against Foss Lambe Jammer. Yeah. As a freshman or a sophomore, I can't remember which one it was. So I'm used to playing against like

real deal dudes. I mean, Florida had a guy named Ronnie Williams and Bernard DeLans and they were awesome. And I'm like, I said, this dude is something scary. I've never seen coach. Like I say, he'll look taller to me.

He cannot run. And he got an attitude. He's out here. And man, that's the first time I played against Michael, and it was scary, Bill. Like I say, he was going, I seen Roy Williams talk about, like, I had to tell Michael to stop going so hard every day,

even in practice. I mean, he's wired. I get another story. So we're playing in a Terminal of America's in Portland, Oregon. We're playing Puerto Rico. So me, David Robinson, Chuck Bailey. And David Robinson, go play 18 holes that morning.

So we're done. We said, Chuck, so let's go get some rest. We got a game tonight. Mike said, I'm going to play 18 more. Chuck says, we got a game tonight. He says, I'm going to play 18 more. So we leave. He goes to play 18.

We went back and got some rest. We get to the game. And Michael, we all getting dressed. And David, he's like, David, you got this dude. Charles you got this dude Irvin you got this dude Michael looks up says I got him and Chuck says he's the

point guard Michael says I got him Chuck says okay Bill we start the game Michael scream at this little kid from Puerto Rico don't you ever fucking say anything about me in the newspaper

he's guarding this dude like it's game seven But this after 36 holes, Bill, he's screaming at this little kid. And we're looking around like, yo, man, there's something wrong with this dude. He's screaming at this kid from Puerto Rico. Don't you ever say anything about me. I read what you said in the newspaper. He's doing that little drill, that little drill where you turn people,

which most people are fast enough if you can't turn him. He's guarding this dude like it's game seven. And he's screaming at this kid. That was the first time I realized he didn't have a full deck. So then we're in the Olympics, and we're playing Croatia. Yeah. They got Tony Kukos, who's having like 40 points a game. Scott and Michael says, Chuck, we're going to take turns guarding Scott, Tony Kukok.

We're not going to let him score. Guys are having 40 points a game. You know, one thing about those international teams, they run the same play for the same guy. Yeah. It was the best defensive performance I've ever seen. These dudes are talking in timeouts. They're screaming at us. Let us get over the pick.

Just head for a second. We're going on there on this one. Like, they're the guard in this dude. They're like, we're not going to let him score. I think he finished like some seven for 30, something like that. It was some of the best. That's why I said, Michael is wide different. it was beautiful and amazed

those are the two most interesting things that I've ever seen him do man he's just wired differently yeah that's why the Pippin stuff was sad after the last dance that that relationship went sideways because as great as Jordan was I always felt like those guys together

were its own kind of awesome thing and I don't know I always felt like Jordan appreciated and then Pippin feels like he seems like he's underappreciated with that whole aspect. And it's really sad. You know, first of all, I have never won a championship,

but if you won six championship, that's pretty damn special. Yeah, you should be bonded by that. But jealousy is a dangerous thing, man. Yeah. Jealousy is a dangerous thing. And it's really unfortunate. Michael Jordan made us all a lot of money.

Right. He made us all a lot of money. NBA-wise, shoe apparel-wise, clothing deals, commercials. See, that's the thing a lot of people don't understand. Athletes were not making commercials until Michael Jordan. Nobody had a shoe deal. You saw it that movie air.

Nobody was getting a percentage of shoes until Michael Jordan. He's made- Everyone at Converse. Yeah, he's made, they weren't making no percentage of shoes back then. They were getting a little money, him and magic, but they wasn't making any money. Yeah. Michael's mom said, hey, we're going to get a percent to shoot.

Michael said, no, we don't do that. He says, oh, well, we're going to do it now. I started getting paid because of Magic Michael Jordan. But like I say, nobody was baking money for shoes. Nobody was shooting. Now, seeing jocks and commercials like saying hello. So shout out to Michael Jordan for making us all a lot of money, brother. You know, speaking of commercials, LeBron did that Forever King commercial.

Did you see it? That Nike thing? I can't. I probably saw it, but didn't pay it that much attention. Yeah, it was like this, I don't know, 45-second commercial about all the people he's vanquished, and it's like just close-up shots of him with a crown on. I think he's, I don't really understand what his MO is.

And if you talk about it, it's like, well, you're being critical on it. And it's like, this guy's one of the best players of all time. And it seems like... That's the only thing I hate about LeBron. First of all, he's a great, great player. he's an amazing person really nice guy but for him and his guys

if you don't say he's the greatest ever it's like you can commit treason right you're either for them or against them it's like can I just say

you're one of the greatest person of all time no you cannot you cannot if you do not say he's the greatest of all time you'll commit treason I mean you can't even mention

Michael Kobe Bill Russell I mean that's a faction of Kareem people I actually feel like Kareem's the one guy who get left enough out.

100% agree. Yeah. I mean, because nobody has a better career, high school, college, and pros than Karam Abdul Jabbar. Plus he left four years

at UCLA that he could have been in the NBA just putting up stats and he would have been one of the best guys. And, you know, but that's the only thing I don't like about

LeBron and his guys. They're like, if you don't say he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, they hate you. And it's really sad. And it pisses me off

when it happens to, but you know, man, it's just people's opinion. Because first of all, most of these young punks today in the public, they never saw Michael Jordan play. Right. They never, most of them else, never saw Kobe play. They definitely didn't see Kareem or Bill Russell play. But for some reason, this generation, oh, you're being blasphemous, saying LeBron. And listen, I got a number of love and respect for LeBron because I said this before. he's probably had the best career ever for a high school.

Him and Kareem. No, I'm talking to this for as high school players. Because if you remember some, Bill, Kobe struggled in the beginning. Right. Kevin Garnett struggled in the beginning. All those high school players struggle a lot. Remember they booed Kobe early in his career.

But I can say this. LeBron James is the only player in my 40 years in the NBA who came right out of high school and played. well. I had his first game. I had his first game. LeBron James in my 40 years, like Kobe became great. Kevin Garnett became great. McGrady, all these guys. But I can honestly say LeBron James is the only one who came out of high school who played well right away. I think he's in a weird spot with this Lucas situation because from the moment... It's time to move on, brother. Well, but I don't think he feels like it's starting to

to move on. Like when they did the press conference. Kareem, Bill, see, this is the problem. Yeah. Kareem did it with Magic. Tim Duncan did it with Tony Parker, Genobli, and Kawhi,

he doesn't want to do it, though. You have to, Bill. Listen, I agree with you. I'm just telling you what I'm watching. Like, when they put the statement out, and they said, like, we got to be more committed to winning a title. It's like, you've Luke on your team.

Like, they're not trying. Yeah. They went out of guy, Luca Dunchick. They're not trying. Hey, man, I don't like, when guys, the baton has to be passed from everybody. It's passed from everybody. The Lakers haven't been irrelevant.

The bubble was the last time they've been relevant. I hear people talking about LeBron's putting up good stats. But the Lakers have not been irrelevant since the bubble. Now are they relevant? Bringing in Luka helps, but I'm not going to pick them they lost two of the Timberwolves last year who were, they're not relevant with OKC, the Nuggets, or the Rockets, in my opinion.

I'm not going to pick the T. Woods or the Lakers over those top three teams. Well, you saw it from the course of your career. Like the league is about young guys and then guys in their prime and then older guys trying to hang on. Once you're in that last group, it's so much tougher to go.

100 games. Yeah, but it's easier. It shouldn't make it easier. Kareem, like, okay. I bet Kareem won. Yeah, you can't count Kareen, though. I mean, Kareem had the most unstoppable shot in the league. I know that, but what you say,

Magic were responsible for the last, him and James Worthy, Pauler, responsible for the last two championships. And for Tim Duncan, who's the greatest power for it ever. Yeah. I think Duncan, Parker, Genobley, not Duncan, excuse me, Parker,

Genobley, and Kaua Lennel are part of the response to the last two championship. There's nothing wrong. He still get the championship ring. If the Lakers win the championship and Luca wins the MVP, don't LeBron get a championship ring? Come on, man.

Stop it, Bill. I'm on your side. I agree with you. I don't know what he sees. Because the move would be, I've lucked out. I have one of the best four guys in the league on my team again.

How do I fit in at the age? I'm going to add him. I know. But I don't know if he wants it. Because it seems like if he could have forced a trade over the summer, he probably would have. I would look at it as like, this is an amazing situation. You can pick your spots. You can probably play 55 games during this season.

Luka will do all the work and then turn it on in the playoffs for 10 weeks. And you win. You win if you make the finals. You win if the team succeeds. It's like Ernie Johnson. Ernie wins when your show's good. It's not, Ernie's not like,

I got to get my takes off today. Ernie's like, I have these three guys, I have to make them better, I win if the show's good. That's how LeBron has to think. You know what's interesting about you saying that? I hate these guys so much

who whine about that bill. As a guy who was dying for better players around me. Yeah. When you see these things where guys can't play together, you say to yourself, like Kyrie didn't want to play with LeBron.

I'm like, why not? Right. Kobe didn't want to play with Kobe and Shaq. I'm like, what do you mean y'all don't want to play together? That got personal, though. I know. But that's my point. These guys drive me crazy.

Like, I'm down to play with other great players. And like, who want to come to Philly and play with me? Who want to come to Phoenix and play with me? Like, when I hear these guys, like, I want to be the guy. Like, I want to be the guy, too, on a winning team. I don't have to be, I don't have to be the guy, especially when I'm not the same player.

When I hear this stupidity, like Kobe and Shaq probably should have won three more championship. If Shaq had to say, hey, you know what, Kobe, you're responsible for the last championship, probably. I probably can win a couple more if I just shut the hell up and play. And now it's time for a special part

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I like the Chiefs. As you've heard from my podcast, I'm just feeling like an off year for the Chargers. And the Chiefs laying the Smackdown, trying to remind everybody that they're here, the neutral field thing. I'm just, we'll talk about it on Thursday's podcast, but I am in on the Chiefs in this game. And you could be in, you could be one of the 100% of the people watching this game live for free on YouTube on September 5th. Carol G. Performing at halftime, watch it live only on YouTube. Certain local broadcasts available.

Head to YouTube.com slash NFL on Friday, September 5th at 7 p.m. ET, 8 p.m. ET kickoff, Chiefs, Chargers. You might have heard of both of those teams. Game available via YouTube globally accepting Canada and certain other countries. game will also be available on free over-the-air broadcast television local markets of the participating clubs. And this is why I defend Duncan so much. And Duncan now is the years past and people can just look up his stats. And I'm like, oh, this guy's better. And this guy like Duncan could have averaged, I don't know, five, six more points a game. He could have had better everything if he wanted to. But he was all about like, we're winning 70% of our

games. I'll come in and out when they need me. And when they really need me, guess what? I'm the best power forward of all time, and I'll be there. But he was very generous with, you know, all he cared about was how the team was doing, and he was inclusive, and how to raise guys' levels. And I don't know why we don't treasure that as a basketball fan community.

You guys. I'm not a you guys in this. I'm on your side on this. You guys in the media, not you. Particularly jackass is on television. It's like, whose team is it? And things like that. And that's, like, I'm sitting back watching. I'm like, you know, man.

Like, let's say hypothetically, is it Dr. Jay's championship or Moses championship? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. That's why that goes back to my original point. Man, I would have loved the one in the championship with another guy beside me. That's what drives me crazy about these fools on television. They go on TV every day. Like I was, you know, this weekend, this weekend I was saying to myself, oh, shit.

I would hate to be Arch Manning and Bill Belichick this week because I know how the losers on television are going to react. I know how stupid the public is. They don't even understand. But I was saying to myself, man, I'd hate to be Arch Manning Monday and I'd hate to be Bill Belichick Tuesday because I know how these fools on television are.

I knew they were going to crush Arch Manning and I knew they were going to crush Bill Belichick and I sent Bill a text Monday. I said, hey man, because you know me and Bill are close. I said, I just want you to know I know it's a lot of people hoping you fail but I always want you to know you're my guy

and I'm rooting for you, have a great. great season. But as I knew this morning, they were going to crush him. That's the way this business is now. It's unfortunate. And like I say, I knew Arch

Manning's played one football game of significance. He's an 18, 19-year-old kid. He goes against a hell of a team against Ohio State. Right, he's on the road. It's his first big start, huge spotlight. I said, man, these guys, these foods on TV are going to kill him Tuesday.

Excuse me, kill him Sunday and Monday. Yeah. But that's the environment we're in now, Bill. And it's really unfortunate. I mean, it's really unfortunate because that's the way you get recognized and make money now. And that's sad. I thought it really hurt the NBA, last couple years. And, you know, you guys took some, some bullets on it, too, from talking about

old generation versus new generation. You guys were too negative about the current game. But I actually was more on your side with some of that stuff. The stuff I don't like is when we're, you know, and there's people that do it that I actually like. Like, you and I both like Stephen A. But when he was on the, when he was on the NBA countdown show and every half time is about this guy's got to step up because they're losing because of him. Where? And it's just, I don't know. It's just not for me. I think what we're losing, number one, you have a great point.

But this, we got so many great players in the NBA. But these foods spend all their time comparing, like, Michael Jordan's dead, okay? Right. Michael Jones is dead. He's been retired forever. Yeah, over 20 years. These foods spend all their time comparing him to LeBron. I'm like, why?

Michael Jones has been dead for 20-some years. Let him, let him, let, let let, let's come, let's let LeBron be LeBron. We're starting to do the stupid shit in golf now. Man, Scottish Shepherd is just as good as Tiger. I'm like, damn, y'all, just see him ruin the NBA. We can't appreciate LeBron's greatness or Steph Curry's greatness. We got to prepare him to a guy's been dead for 20 years.

I'm like, why can't, Michael Jordan is great. But so is LeBron, so is Kobe, so is Steph, so is Joker. Why do y'all have to get on TV? First, because they got no talent. They got no talent, Bill, because they know people going to go on the Internet and argue with them or go on the Internet on these radio shows and argue with them. That's why they do it. Now I see these fools doing it in golf.

Scott Schaeffler, he's great. I love Scottie Sheffler. He's good as Tiger. I'm like, well, I'm sitting here like, Scott Schaeffler is 29 and he's won four majors. Tiger won four majors at 24. After winning three amateurs in a row before he even turned pro. I'm not sure.

And Tiger's won 30 times by then. And Scott has won 17 times. He's 29. why can't we just appreciate this greatness? Why y'all have to be lazy and just bring that up? Tigers is the once-in-a-generation-type player. Scotty, if he keeps rolling, he's the best in this generation. But these guys, they need hot takes on television and radio

because they need foods to click on them on the Internet or call to answer their radio shows. It drives me crazy. I said, Michael's the best I've ever seen. I love him and respect him. The next I've seen is Kobe. Now, the last 20 years, been Steph and LeBron.

I don't have to compare them. I can appreciate their greatness. Scotty is the best we got going today. I don't have to compare him to Tiger or Jack or Arnie or Gary player. But these guys have become lazy because they know people are going to get on their computer and come after them or a lot of them

have radio shows I have friends in Philadelphia where I live during the summer I play golf with them in the morning and I said what are you going to talk about today they're like we're going to talk about Michael, Kobe LeBron

guys like that I'm like, why are you doing that? Is Jalen Hertz good enough even though he already won a Super Bowl? Yes. Can you win two Super Bowls with Jalen Hertz? That's our topic today.

Yeah. And they tell me the truth. They're like, Charles, you don't understand how the media works. I said, this is in the 80s and 90s, Bill. And they said, that's how the media works. We got to get fools to call in and argue with us for four hours. We don't believe half the shit that we say. I said, what?

He says, I'm on radio for four hours. Yeah. If I say Michael's the best, half the people going to call in and say he was. The other half going to call in and talk about LeBron, he's the greatest. But then some sprinkler's going to come in, talk about Bill and Wilk.

He says, that's what our job is in the media. We are on radio for four hours. And then I was like, wow, that's interesting. And these are some of my great friends who have some of the most popular shows in Philadelphia in the 80s. 80s and 90s. They're like, our job is just to get people and call in and argue for four hours.

It taught me a lot about the media. Now, the difference is now is they're all on TV making millions of dollars. Yeah. And that was one reason I was hesitant to do the ESPN deal, to be honest with you. I was going to ask you about that. Because I don't want to do that. Like, I want to go on TV. One of the reasons I love doing your podcast.

I got, and I'm not saying it's going to be a podcast. I don't do a minute podcast. I like you. And I know you're going to be honest on a straight shooter. Even if I disagree. Right. I know one of the reason I hated Skip Bayless. Like, you know, man, people, you can disagree with people.

But people believe, television is so powerful. People believe what we say. They do. I don't mind agreeing or disagreeing with people, but I ain't going to say shit just to get people to call in and argue with me. That's the one's the reason I like you. I know you're like,

I'm going to try to do my job to the best of my abilities. I don't care who clicks on to me. I ain't trying to get people to like me or dislike me. That's the reason I first develop a hatred for Skip Bailey's. Like, you know, man, you can't. Like, people believe what we see. say. Right. Like I had one of these, I had one of these a couple weeks ago because I genuinely think Josh Allen was the best QB in the league last year, even though the results

didn't happen. He was saying like, so trying to figure out who's the quarterback hierarchy heading into this year. And I'm like, I just think Josh is the best QB. I know Mahomes has the resume. I don't think he was that good last year for, by his standards. And I can't put him first based on what he did three years ago. So I, so I got friends who work at ESPN. Yeah. And there's a racial component of it, too. Right, well. The Yoko Jambi thing was brutal. That was the worst.

I said, they asked me in my opinion. I said, I think Josh Allen's MVP. Right. They're like, well, what about Lamar? So, Marr had a great year. He's amazing. I love Lamar. I said, but your question is, who had the best year?

I said, who is Derek? Who is Josh Allen got in the backfield? Now, the Cook Kid is a good player. he's not Derek Henry. Which coaching staff would you rather have? Which infrastructure? Who are Josh Allen Y receivers? I think the best one was Shakir.

Shakir. Yeah. And then the kid who, the Coleman kid, who's the rookie. Then you got the kid who comes to games who's naked. And I said, I says, Josh do not have, and they had a better record. And they beat them head to head. I said, so if he's got Derek Henry, the best running back in the league, he's got better wide receivers.

But Josh Allen, they thought the bills were going to take a step back because they cut everybody after last year. I picked him to miss the playoffs last year. They lost so many guys. They had a better representative than the Ravens. Yeah. Why was he not the MVP? If this was the NBA, we'd be going,

Josh Allen needs more help. And Josh Allen's agents would be leaking. They got to make a move. They need a star receiver. And that's another thing I hate about the move, to be honest with you. The ESPN move. Yes. These guys get on TV every day and says, are they wasting Janice's career?

Yannis won a title already. I know, but I'm saying they're wasting the Joker's career. And I'm saying, they got to get LeBron some help. Yeah. And I'm saying. Well, wait a minute. I don't remember y'all saying that shit about me and Patrick Ewing. Y'all never got on TV and said,

we're wasting charge, bought their career in Philadelphia. I was saying it, but I was in a bar in Boston. I didn't have a microphone. It drives me crazy. Because that's this thing now. If you don't win every year, they want you to move. They're like, Yon has got to move. They're wasting him.

I'm like, wait a minute. I was in Philly. I had no help. Patrick Yul was in New York. He had no help. I don't remember y'all getting on TV saying, help Patrick, help Charles. But on TV now,

should Janis want to leave Milwaukee? Should the Joker want to lead Denver? I'm like, damn. What happened when y'all have this new dynamic? I'm like, damn, I don't. to help in Philly. Y'all didn't never say Charles needed help. But now, every star, like, he's got to get out of there.

I know, but think about Dirk Nuitzky in 2011 is the best example of this, where we could have done this whole cycle with him for four years after they lose that Warriors, and he stays, and he ends up winning there, and that's, like, the best title anyone won in the last 50 years. And that's like two titles. Yeah. But there's this new thing now, Bill. when they see a great player, especially if he's in a small market.

They're like, he's got to get out of there. He needs to move. I'm like, damn, where were y'all when I was in Philly? Right. When I was going out there with Shepardons, no disrespect. When I was going out there, my new bowl and Shelton Jones, I remember y'all saying, hey, we got to get Charles from helping Philly. Some of it's the people around the players, too.

It's the agents, it's the handlers. They have a trainer now, and they're just kind of constantly, you should be bigger. You'd be a bigger star in a bigger market. You got to get more money. You're better than this guy. You're better than your teammate. And then you start planting the seeds and you go. You mentioned the ESPN thing.

I talked on a pod a couple months ago, and I feel like I have a pretty unique perspective because I did the NBA show there and I saw how they do shows and how they prioritize the pregame, the halftime, the commercial breaks, giving people time to speak. And the reason you guys had the best studio show of all time

other than the talent was that you had these producers that actually let it breathe that gave you like eight, nine minutes at halftime in a row to have a conversation. Do you feel like you're going to be able to do that at ESPN and what happens if you can't? Well, number one, thank you for the compliment. We don't know.

This has been one of the worst. TNT just sucks, to be honest with you, Bill. They made this deal. They haven't told us when we're going to work. They haven't told us how it's going to work. Because we've been talking behind the things. Like, do we have to, after the game, are we going to get any time?

Are they going to say, hey, you guys got to go to sports center? Well, listen, they've always gone right to sports center. That's always how it's work. And I've asked that question. Like, you're right. That's the best part of our show. After the game, we can, like, have conversation and have fun. Are they going to say, you guys got three minutes, five minutes,

15, 20, 30, 45. But like, are we going to go straight to sports center? They haven't given us an answer whatsoever. And T&T, I think they sold the show and they haven't been non-communicable at all. Oh, what do they care? They got paid. They got paid.

Because the thing is with these shows, you can do the pregame show forever and it's fun, but it's basically like a podcast. You're guessing what's going to happen. Yes. The post game is the secret sauce because you just watch the game. You're reacting to it. Yes.

And that was when I did it, I would get mad. because they didn't give a shit about hearing from us after the game. And it's like, well, we shouldn't be here then. Why are we on location? You're doing a four-minute segment with us. Just setting up the game is the easy part. Now you can tell why team won and the team lost, who played good, who played bad. Right.

That is the secret sauce. They have not said anything to us about, hey, are we going to be able to do that after the game? And like I say, T&T didn't care. They just took, like, they think we'd more. Runs. If they think we don't think they got paid something, I mean, come on. We're not food. Oh, yeah. Also, they have a rule with the finals about on ABC, you have to get the fuck out of there and throw it to local news, like with a certain, so you're going to have to switch channels to watch you guys, which ain't nothing either. I want to tell you something, what you just said, but to me it's going to be one of the biggest issues. I've been telling my friends, they're like, what do you think? I says, well, number one, we're concerned about.

the whole ESPN thing is for us to we have to go to the sports center but I think the NBA's got a big problem I says how are they going to tell people what night the games are on I says

the games have been on 40 years they've been on ESPN on Tuesday excuse me on TNT on Tuesdays and Thursdays right

and ESPN Wednesday Friday then Saturday night then since Sunday but Saturday is gone because of Amazon so So when I met with NBC, they said, we're going to do games on Monday and Tuesday. And then when the NFL ends, we're going to do Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday.

I think ESPN is going to do Wednesday and Friday. And I think Amazon is going to do Thursday and Saturday. but my thing is how are regular fans gonna like okay it's Tuesday especially when they start putting games out where do I go well like casino sometimes the game's gonna be on peacock and like it's not going to be on NBC I think that's a huge dilemma for the NBA guess what they don't care they got they got so much money

they're they're going to wipe their tears with cash real i'm so glad you said that i i think i think it's a big deal because they get they just took all the money from all three networks i don't think they give a shit about the fans and i i think i think this is going to come back to bite them to be honest with you well if you talk to anybody from the nba as i know you have how many years have they've been complaining about how ESPN covers the league. I mean, at least 10, right? 10, 12, 15.

Like, I hate the, we hate the discourse. We hate that they do that. And it's like, you just took their money again. You can't say anything. You took their money one more time. So now that's a new point. Yeah, but they took the money, but also to take the money from NBC and Amazon, it's like, yeah, we're just going to take the money. And then the thing that's

scared, this deal is for 11 years. Right. So now people complain all they want to. For the next 11 years, they don't give a shit about the fans. They're like, y'all, if y'all find the game, fine, just make sure the check clears. Well, I think Amazon's going to do a really good job because I think they've done a good job with football, and I think they, I think their attitude toward how they're going to cover it and how much attention, like, they're going to be fine.

NBC is going to do it like they did NFL. I think they can all be fine. They just got to figure out how the regular fan are going to find it. Right. Because that's a frustrated thing with NFL where you're like, what's, oh, it's, wait a second, this game's on,

it's Black Friday on Amazon, and you're floating around. Yeah. Okay, like, okay, we know the ESPN got the games on Wednesday and Friday. That's pretty stable, but okay. Yeah. Are the games on NBC or they on Peacock?

And again, what too nice is Amazon? Are they, okay. Yeah. They took TNT's nights. Do they get T&T Tuesday? But I lead past two. Well, wait a minute. So T&T, Amazon, you get TNT Thursday, but you don't get their Tuesday.

That goes to NBC. Yeah. Like, I know people think that's simple, but you should always try to make it simple for the fans. Well, and then for you, it's going to be like, where do you get you guys? Because that's the other piece people are going to care about. And then on top of it, you're going to be at ESPN. I'm sure there's going to be some back and forth. with different people on the shows,

you're not going to put up with it because you're old, you don't care. You're just going to go right back at everybody. It's like, I don't, I want, I think, listen, it's going to be an honor and a privilege to work for ESPN because they're the greatest sports network ever. Yeah.

But I just, I just hope that we get to do what we do, man. Me too. Like, see, you want a few people who understand the question, the points that I'm asking, like, wait, We got to go to local news, or we got to go to Sports Center, or we got to do both. Yeah, how do I, the game just ended, how do I find you guys?

Oh, I have to flip channels? Yeah, I mean, they're in commercial. Am I on the right channel? Yeah, and you want a few people who actually understand that. You're like, okay, we got to go to local news. Like, we've never fucking had to go to local news before. You know, we've never had to go to Sports Center. Yeah, but most of the people that produce these shows have never been on the shows.

And when you've been on it, you understand the rhythm a bit differently. For whatever reason, Tim Kiley, you're a guy forever, he fundamentally understood how to make you guys succeed and that you guys needed time and you needed to breathe and that was what made it special. Most people don't see it that way. But now I'm hoping do we get to breathe? Yeah, you're going to have like, trust me, I did them a couple years. You're going to have like a two and a half minute halftime show on location at the finals. Like he were like, wait, I just started.

my point. We're going to commercial again? What happened? You know, and I've been able to scream at TNT people. I've done it live on air. I'm not done with my point. Hold that damn commercial, and I want to make my point because it was an important point. But like I say, man, I don't know, but I'm concerned.

I ain't never going to get on your show or any show in line. Like, I am concerned about going forward. Well, I will say we've said goodbye to inside the NBA. It feels like for three straight years, and you guys are still on. You guys are like boxers that keep retiring. It's like when Ali retired over and over again in the 70s, and then he would fight again.

You know, this was, you know, I really grew to hate the people I work for, to be honest with you, Bill. I could tell. No, because, Bill, there's a way you treat people. Yeah. We should not learn that we got fired or whatever from the Internet. Ernie Johnson deserves better.

Literally, this is a true story. We were playing golf in the playoffs. I was playing with my boy Alex and Underdog and Mike. We're literally in between shots looking at the internet. One article comes out, T&T lost the package. But I guess we lost the package. Another article come out. We kept the package.

another article come out we lost the package nothing comes we're literally playing golf and in between shots we're reading the internet and and then nothing happens nobody says anything and i'm literally sitting at a house on a friday night i get a text from van pelt bob myers l duncan and brian win horse. Welcome me to the family. This is a Friday night. Nobody's told us anything. I get this text from four ESPN people. Welcome me to the family. About two hours later, I get a call from TNT. Hey, this story broke. No shit with the shows going to ESPN. And I'm like, well, y'all have to negotiate something before

it broke. How about a heads up? Well, I also don't understand how'd they negotiate it without knowing if you were going to be on the show? That's my point. That's my point, Bill. And I'm sitting here like, oh, welcome to the family. It was a Friday night.

And I was like, wait, welcome to what family? Then I said, I got the car from T&T like two hours later. saying, hey, unfortunately, the story broke. Like, the story broke because y'all got a damn deal. How about if y'all signed a deal, call us for immediately and saying, hey, God, we got a deal to trade y'all, show the ESPN. And that's one of the reason I developed animosity toward them. Like, yo, just tell us.

Because if he had to call us and said, you know what, guys, this is a bad deal. they want us to go from 1.2 to the 2.5 bearing a year for 11 years. We can't afford that. That's all T&T had to say, Bill. And we would have said, we understand. That's not a great deal. But for us to hear from the Internet and ESPN people that we lost the package, that's just unprofessional.

And I get mad for Ernie because Ernie's the godfather. Ernie Johnson should never have to hear from other people that he lost his gig. Right. Well, he was also telling everybody, I don't want another job. This is where I want to end my career. I have these crazy ties with TNT and TBS and Atlanta, and I don't want to do anything else. Well, so I'm with him on that. And I'll tell you the truth, Bill.

The only reason me and Ernie decided to stay was the people TNT got to come. kept their jobs because I got so I met with Amazon and I met with NBC got a offer for more money from NBC. I thought that's where you were going to go. Well, I probably would have went there.

They had a bunch of bullshit. They were talking about, not going to lie, they offered me more money. But, When they sent the contract to me, it had Kentucky Derby. Hmm. It had the U.S. Open. Oh.

See, I would elect you on both of those. Yeah, okay. It had five appearances on today. I'm still intrigued. Five appearances on Jimmy Fallon, the Olympics in 28 and 30. And I says, I guess y'all didn't hear the part why I want to, because I would tell you what's funny. I liked all those things.

I thought they made a good case. A bill, I'm not going to work more as I get older. I'm working left. I would have liked this. Because what was really ironic about the contract, when we first started talking, they says, I was going to work two days a week, which I hadn't worked two days a week in 25 years. Yeah.

I said, you know what? Because I like the guys. Because the boss at NBC hired me at Turner. I got a lot of love for Mark Lazarus. I say, you know what? I can work Monday and Tuesday. I'm good with that. So I'm like, okay, send me a contract.

Let me take a look at it. But then by the time I got the contract, they're like, well, once football over, you're going to work three days a week. That was my first red flag. And then when they put Kentucky Derby, U.S. Open. Olympic 28 and 30

I says hell no and so then the thing with Turner comes back and they're like guys we can keep the show going

and we get to keep everybody at Turner I mean and Ernie were like okay that's best scenario because one of the things that intrigued me and Ernie about NBC, they told us we could bring all the people with us.

Yeah. Which was me and Ernie's only concern. Because when me and Ernie met with NBC, they're like, you guys can bring anybody you want to. And I was like, we can bring everybody behind the scene. They said, we'll film this show in Atlanta. and you can bring anybody you want to. So that got me and Ernie's attention.

Yeah. But then the thing with ESPN came up and we're like, well, if we can stay the same and bring everybody with us, let's take that deal. All right. Well, it sounds like you're still conflicted about it. I'm not conflicted because 200 people are going to keep their job.

They're like my family members. Yeah. And that's all I really cared about. Because, Bill, I will tell you something, this was a very difficult couple years for me mentally. Because, you know, I'm in the sports world my whole life. I ain't never been around a lot of real people. You know, all my NBA friends and TB friends, they got a lot of money. And I'm blessed.

I'm not being an ungrateful person. I'm very blessed and thankful. but to be around my co-workers, TV people who were going to lose their job and to hear them talking about mortgage, taking their kids out of private school that they never had to worry about because we never, under any circumstance, I thought the TNT was going to lose the NBA. But it was becoming increasingly clear. And, man, we just fired a gazillion people from NBA TV.

Yeah, which was painful because I know all those guys and people behind the scenes. But for the last, especially last year, but really the last couple of years and it was like, we might lose the NBA to be around people who I generally care about, to hear them talk about mortgage, to hear them talking about taking their kids out of private school and things like that, time of downgrading where they live. man, it was really painful for me because, you know, I'm in the NBA. I ain't ever had one of my friends

talk about mortgage and say, I got to downgrade my kids schooling. Like, it was really painful for me as a person. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think about the late night shows, right? As the late night air is kind of ending like Colbert shows. Yeah.

200 people work for that show. So, you know, Kim was deciding how long he wants to go. 200 people are hinging on the decision. And like, and they act like these people can just go get another job. I says, it doesn't work like that. I said, man, jobs, we, jobs just don't grow on a tree, especially in our community. Yeah. Because if we fire those 200 people in Atlanta, number one, 200 people aren't going to have a job.

a couple of like they were talking about well if you go to Amazon you got to move to California that's a whole different animal and I'm not even sure what NBC decided to do their show at so people act like well we can just go get another job I'm like it's not that simple

even if Amazon want to hire you how many people can just pick up and move to California that's a different animal from an economic standpoint or the same thing if NBC moves everything in New York. That's a whole other animal. You in California could have been a reality show that could have potentially funded some of this, too.

You living here, I think, would have been absolutely fascinating. I wouldn't have never live there. I think that should have been part of the deal. It's like Amazon, but you have to live here. To pick a neighborhood and you have to be an L.A. person. They would have to really give me a really good condo, a house or something. Bel Air, you could play Bell Air with that. So somewhere right by the studio.

Okay. A nice condo, three-bedroom. You can't have... I think they have those here. Yeah, I'm a big believer. You can never have more than two people visiting at the same time. Any more than two people that you're crowded.

Oh, that's interesting. No, matter how big your house is? No, I'm not big on guests. Yeah, that does get tough when you have kids and you have... Well, you're staying at, aren't you staying at your kid's house right now? I am. So you're the guest. One of my two grandkids, yes.

All right. How old are the grandkids? Three and two. Little Henry, he's three, and little Charlie, she's two. So at some point you've got to break out the YouTube clips of you going coast to coast. You know, right now my life revolves around Miss Rachel and Daniel Tiger. That's pretty much it right now. Those are the kids shows, yeah.

Yeah, Miss Rachel and Daniel Tiger. That's pretty much it. And the rest of these are watching guard over the swimming pool. Right. That's it. That's an important job, though. It's a very important job because, you, man, they were so cute in the beginning. Now they won't sit still.

Like, they were so cute in the beginning, just sit on your lap, and you just kiss them like a million times. Once they can run, it's over. Oh, my God. Once they start walking and running, all hell of breaking them, I need a nap every time I see them. Right after that. I do. You need a nap. now. It is amazing how they go from, oh, you're so cute. But then once they learn to walk and run,

they never sit still. It's crazy. So you have, to wrap up, you have Philadelphia beating who in the Super Bowl? You know, I'm hoping it's the Buffalo Bills. I would like to see either Josh Allen or I like Josh Allen a lot as a person The Ravens The Ravens You know

When you are a great player Like Lamar and Josh are You're on the shit list like me Until you win the championship And it sucks because You know, it's a team game, but when you're a great player, you get all the credit and you get all the blame. Yeah. So I would like to see Josh Olamar win the Super Bowl.

I think Baltimore has a better team because their defense is better. Slightly better coaching staff. Buffalo is a better offensive line. Yeah, but they got that, you know, they revamped their defense last year. Yeah. So, but my Eagles, man. Man, they're loaded. The defense got to grow up.

But Joshua Lamar. So I had Buffalo over Green Bay before the Parsons trade. One day before that was my back. It almost seems too easy now. Now it's like, you know, that Parsons trade. The love kid got to play better. True.

He was hurt last year. He was hurt. See, that's the thing that sucks about sports. He got hurt in the first game. And then had two more injuries. But once you get hurt, and people think when you come back, you're healthy. When you come back, you're not healthy.

It takes a while to get back. And then he gets hurt again. But you know what? I give them credit. Hey, man, you know, we did it in Philadelphia the last couple years. Right. That's why Howie is the best general amount of you. That goes back to what we're talking about earlier.

Man, very seldom do you have a chance to win? Like, very, you give, how, Howard, like, I need a wide receiver. He went and got AJ. And he, like, we're not good enough. I need a running back. He goes out and gets Sequin. The Packers, like, man, when you have a chance to win, you got to go for it. Well, that, but that was the frustration with Denver for me,

with what they did with Yokage the last two years where, you know, they won the title and they're like, okay, we won a title. Like, you have the best guy of this decade. Every year that this guy's on your team, you have to spend the most money you possibly can because this is like, this is fucking generational. This is a unicorn. And they didn't do it last year.

They cheaped out, I thought. But see, the problem they got now, they're trying to play catch up. And I always, and I tell people this, you never catch up. It might be too late. Because now they're not, head and shoulders the best starting five, you know?

Right. Yeah, but they got rid of their two best players off the bench when they won the championship. Yeah, and some of that was financial. I understand that. Dude, man, guys will give their right arm and leg to win the championship. Your team going to be worth billions of freaking dollars. You're going to haggle over $10, $20, $30 million? Think about that, Bill.

your team every NBA team is worth at least $2 billion Oh my four now The ceiling's four And by the time

So think about this You had a chance To keep KCP And Bryce Bruce Brown Probably cost you Another 30 maybe 40 million

Yeah You're gonna Team gonna appreciate Three 400 million dollars Especially if you win You're probably gonna make that money up If you go deep in the playoffs

man, if you got a chance to win, you better go for it. And they really wasted the Joker the last couple of years. But like I say, the problem they got now is they're not better than Oklahoma City. Right. And I'm not sure they're better than the Rockets. Yeah, if Thompson goes up a level, Houston could be in the two-spot. It's a bummer because I don't know. I was there for Bird of Magic.

You were two in a different way. You played against them. Magic. Think about this. Hold on. Perfect example. Go back and look. This is what, when those guys had birds, they bought in somebody every year. Right. What about the Lakers? They bought in somebody every year. You can never stand pat when you win. The Celtics, they bought in one one year. And then the Lakers bringing Michael Thompson the next year to respond. They bought in Bob McAdoo. Sam Perkins. Like, that's what made to the Lakers and the Celtics, the two greatest NBA franchises ever. Hey, we're not trying to win one championship.

We're not trying to win two championship. We're not trying to win three. That's what made the Celtics and the Lakers the best franchises in NBA history. I think O'KSI might be wired that way. The way they think of this long-term, short-term at the same time about how to build something that's seven, eight years and not two. Oh, they're going to be the favorite.

Well, actually, your Celtics would have been the favorite the next five years if they didn't get hurt. Yeah, well, at least in the East. Yes, in the East. But OKC, because they only got to pay those top three guys. And I'm going to tell you something, Hardinstein and Caruso, they'll give a hometown discount. Yeah.

And then they got more young players. and damn draft picks because I tell these guys if I'm Harnstein and Caruso I'm not taking an extra $5 million to suck Hey well that was the famous Julian Edelman story

when Jacksonville was trying to sign him and he basically took four million less to stay with he's like I'm playing with Tom Brady I'm going to factor that in if I'm going to play with those top three guys in Oklahoma City if I can get $5 million

from a shit team or I can get three and a half if I get three and a half I'm going to make another million in endorsements because I'm on the best team in the NBA and playoff money too right you get some of that too

I don't know Hardinstein and Caruso that well they're really important to OKC I guarantee you they'll take a hometown discount to stay because like I say they're going to be favorite easily. Even if they don't win the championship,

they're going to be first or second the next five years easily. Yeah. Well, that's the thing I never understood with Yokic. Like if in the old days, people are like, I get to play with magic. I'm going to, let me get to the Lakers to play with that guy. I don't understand why people didn't see Yokage like that.

I can play with that guy. It's like the most fun guy in the league to play with. People felt that way about Duncan in the 2000s, right? Once they started trading players, they weren't trying to bring guys on. They got the stink on them, right. All right. This was a good catch-up, Chuck. Hey, brother.

I'm glad you're well. It's always great to see you. I'm rooting for you at this next stop. We'll see how it goes. I'm going to bet on Barkley all the time. I got a lot of love and respect for it, brother. Thanks for having me on. All right.

Great to see you. Thanks, man. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to the one and only Charles Barkley. Don't forget about a new rewatchables, our 400th movie that we've done. We did American Gangster. And then what else do I have? Oh, yeah.

More podcasts coming this week. At least one more, probably two, as we head toward week one of the NFL season. So stay tuned. We're going to keep the content coming. Don't forget about all the other ringer football stuff we have in the works as well. And I'll see you a little later in the week. We so little said, I don't have you with him. Must be 21 plus in President's Lake States for Kansas

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