The Bill Simmons Podcast - Charles Oakley Tells MJ Stories, Explains Why LeBron Will Leave, and Remembers His Favorite Fights (And It's Amazing) | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 375)

Episode Date: June 8, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by the toughest guy in NBA history, Charles Oakley, to talk Michael Jordan stories, the difference between old-school and today's NBA, the Pat Riley Knicks, why LeBron should leave the Cavs, his MSG ban, and a slew of his NBA beefs on and off the court. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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check out the rewatchables new episode oceans 11. I was not on this one, but it was, it was well handled Sean fantasy, Chris Ryan, Amanda Dobbins, Lippman. And don't forget to check out the Ringer podcast. We have a bunch of – Larry Wilmore had one today. Dave Chang, he had one. JJ Redick had one in the last few days. A whole bunch of people, and plus the Ringer crew. We're responding to all the stuff that's happened in the NBA. Most recently, Brian Colangelo, the story that we did last week

about the mysterious nature of five Twitter accounts that seemed like they were connected to him in some way. And it turns out today, Philadelphia and Colangelo agreed to part ways. So that was on the 10th day of the story. And that's it. It turns out, it seems like his wife was involved with at least a few of the accounts who, uh, who knows what else was going on, but, uh, that's it. Philly's looking for a new GM and, uh, it was crazy to be involved in that story. I want to read more cause I feel like we don't know everything yet. And eventually we're going to find out. But stay tuned on that. Maybe next week on the BS Podcast,

we'll talk about that. I am still in Cleveland, Ohio. We went to game three of the finals last night. Actually, let's bring in Pearl Jam first and I'll talk about it. Okay. I'm in Cleveland, Ohio. It is Thursday afternoon and, um, you could feel the air go out of the stadium

last night with about, I don't know, 35 seconds left or so. Not just that they lost the game. Not just that they fell down 3-0, but I think for the first time you really started to feel a finish line for the LeBron James era. And the fact that

he just doesn't have remotely close to the same talent on his team that Golden State has. And now it's a question for him. We talked about it with Jalen Rose on the podcast we did on Wednesday, and it's going to be something we talk about until he makes a decision on his next team. If he stays here, I think at this point, he's got to finish his career next year's year 16 for him. If he leaves, the options are basically you go to the Lakers. That's the third phase of your career. We've talked about that path a million times.

You go and you try to become a billionaire and you're doing all your business media stuff and all that stuff. And that's the path. That's one path. Cleveland, the loyalty, and this is where I grew up and I want to retire here. That's the second path. And then the third, and this is where I grew up and I want to retire here. That's the second path.

And then the third path is I need to go find more weapons. And the only way to beat a super team is to build my own super team. Could you do it in Houston? I don't know if Chris Paul is at the stage of his career where Harden, Chris Paul, and LeBron is enough. Could you do it in Philly? Definitely a major upside. Could you do it in Philly? Definitely, definitely major upside. Could you do it in Boston? That is something that is starting to get some buzz. And I know Jonathan Jarks is writing

about that for the ringer this week. It might even be up by the, it might even be up by the time you hear this, but if you're just looking for just manpower for him to be able to compete with Durant and Curry and Clay Thompson and Draymond and the Warriors budget, it might actually be Boston. And how that works could go in a million different directions. I'm super conflicted about it, obviously, because one of the great things about building this Boston team, watching it get built over the last few years, is you're building it to try to beat LeBron James. He's the mountain you have to climb. And if it ever ended up where all of a sudden he was actually going to Boston after rooting against him for all these years, I, I,

it would like having my head taken off my body and then put back on. So who knows my guess, if I had to make a bet, I would bet on Los Angeles still. I just think it makes the most sense. And I think he is a great enough player that he could just, I could build a contender wherever I am. But it is interesting. This week, the Boston stuff started floating around. I know a couple of people mentioned it

on TV shows and radio shows. Stephen A. Smith mentioned it on First Take. And that dude's wired in. And just in general, it just seems like it's a narrative that might start to be building. I'm not sure who is pushing it, but it's something that people are starting to see.

And I think, like Jalen and I talked about on Wednesday, if you had to pick the safest bet for the next team to win the NBA title, it would be the Celtics, based on the assets they have and the potential they have to pick the safest bet for the next team to win the NBA title, it would be the Celtics based on the assets they have and the potential they have to grow the team. And I don't know. We'll see how this plays out. We say this, it seems, every summer.

And this summer, I think, is even in more flux than any summer we've had because you have Paul George in play. You have Kawhi. You have LeBron James. Durant, I don't think he leaves Golden State, but he's still a free agent. He has to be mentioned. Chris Paul, he's going to resign with Houston, we think. There's just a lot of guys who have expiring contracts, not to mention people who are in

situations they might want to try to get out of. Who knows? Damien Lillard, somebody like that. Kevin Love is out there. You're talking about like the 40 best players in the league and eight to 12 of them. You wouldn't bet your life. They're going to be on the team they're on right now, next year, which makes it a, and then you have the Lakers, all the, all the stuff that they could potentially do. And it's a hold your seats, man. The NBA is a 12 month a year sport now. Anyway, plenty of stuff to discuss on that front. And then with the series, you know, last year,

Cleveland fell down three, nothing and rallied in game four and one. And all right, so why did they win? It was a very strangely officiated game and Cleveland made a lot of shots. And it was just one of those games that it slipped away from golden state. And I sat behind golden state's bench last night. The thing that I noticed, the thing that I saw from the first quarter on was how locked in they were. And especially it's weird, but Steve Kerr is kind of the litmus test for this, where if he's up and he's active and he's jumping around and he's

pointing and he's yelling at the refs and he's really engaged, you can tell there's a heightened sense of urgency for them. So you wouldn't think being up two nothing in a series, there'd be a heightened sense of urgency, but I really think there was, I think they wanted to, you know, basically step on the neck of the Cavs last night and not even let this get to 2-1. And it gets to 2-1. Now all of a sudden you got game four. You don't know what the refs, you might get the wrong crew, a bad break.

Somebody could get injured. Who knows? Obviously you want to win every finals game. They really wanted to win last night and they brought Iggy back. They were locked in. And if you watched, I'm not sure how many of these replays were out there last night, And they brought Iggy back. They were locked in. And if you watched,

I'm not sure how many of these replays were out there last night, but when Durant hit that incredible 32 footer, the bench, first of all, it was Draymond and Curry, I think, ran up to him. And then they're running back to the bench. The bench was reacting like they won the title. I mean, they were like euphoric. They were just out of their mind.

There was that moment. Iggy had a dunk in the fourth quarter when he dunked over, I think Thompson. And the bench went just bonkers. And then the third moment, which was actually before the Durant three, was when Curry finally made a three when he was 0 for 9 for the game and just was in a super funk. And just had the balls to take another one. Just wasn't afraid of it and made it. And they went nuts on that. That took it from one to four.

That was a pseudo nail in the coffin and then Durant rammed it home. But what a great team to be able to survive that kind of shitty shooting night from Curry and Clay. Durant plays the, in my opinion, the best game I've ever seen him play. He was just flat out amazing on both ends and made some of the sickest shots I've ever seen him make in the fourth quarter and really was carrying himself like I am the best player in this court. Now you look at it, finals MVP after two games seems like it was headed Steph's way.

And now game three, all of a sudden, it feels like it's Durant's to lose. He was that good. He was awesome in game two too. He slid under the radar a little bit, but super efficient. And I think his last two games, he's 25 for 39, two way, he's been great defensively. He's been rebounding. He's been great defensively. He's been rebounding.

He's been setting dudes up, making the right basketball plays. Really, whatever funk he was in there in the second and third rounds and game one even, he has snapped out of. And then some really loves going against LeBron. And it's a great rivalry. You know, it's turned into one of the better NBA rivalries we've had because they have to guard each other every once in a while, sometimes in crunch time. Play basically the same position.

Their stats are around the same every night. And some nights it turns into a mano a mano. Durant won last night. And it's just a great team. It's one of the best teams I've ever seen. I need to, I'm going to spend the summer, once this wraps up the way we think it's going to wrap up, really trying to figure out where this team ranks.

It's up there. I don't think the start to finish aspect of what they're doing ranks in the top three, but I think the ceiling of what they're doing does. And I think from a ceiling standpoint, that's where the 0-1 Lakers, I think were really great though. That was the best Kobe Shaq year. They really only put it together for about three months there. I'm going to say mid-March and just started winning and just world-thrown really could have gone through the playoffs undefeated if not for the Iverson game. I thought that ceiling of that team was about as high as any team I've seen other than the 86 Celtics.

Those are the two best teams I've ever seen in terms of just ceiling. Shaq and Kobe homing at an A-plus level together, that was really the only time they had that. Next year, it got a little dicey and the alpha dog stuff started. But those three months, it was like, how do you beat this team? They killed everybody. So the Warriors, they're in the conversation. They have not shown the continuous ability to step on people's throats, I think is the weakness of this team. Last night, they had it. Why they don't have that more often? I don't know. Is it because they don't have an alpha dog? Is it because they just have this bullseye on their

back? Every game's a playoff game. The attention, the 12 months a year of it, I'm not sure what the reason is. But when they have this level they can go to for, I don't know, 15-minute stretches of a game. And it's just ridiculous. You just have two of the best players in the league on the court, three of the best shooters. They can play defense. They can really do anything to win the game.

They can, oh, you guys don't have this, so we'll go to Durant this time. Oh, you guys are tired of chasing Curry around the screens. We're going to start sending him around more screens. They just have options. And I think that's what I always look for when I think about the greatest teams ever is the malleability of things. The thing that made the 86 Celtics so great

was they had lineups, and it really, depending on who they were playing, they could, they could put out force, you know, Parrish, Walton, McHale and Bird at the two guard. They could play McHale at center and go small with Bird and Wedman and Ange and DJ. They could basically, whatever was your weakness, they could put out a lineup that would be the worst possible outcome for that weakness. And the Warriors aren't totally like that, but they have about as many lineup options

now that Iguodala is back as you could have in the modern NBA, I feel like. Like, no, they don't have the traditional awesome low post player, but nobody's going to be perfect in a 30-team league. They just, it's just a sick team. And I think the 0-1 Lakers was like that too. The 0-1 Lakers, it was almost the way Shaq and Kobe were playing. They're both averaging 30 a game. The odds of neither of those guys playing well in a game in 2001 was basically zero. So every game you knew you were going against one of the two, the best three players in the league,

the three best players were those two and Duncan that year. And you knew you were going against one of the two, the best three players in the league. The three best players were those two and Duncan that year. And you knew every game, one of those guys was going to have a great game. How do you win in a seven-game series against that? You can't. The Warriors are almost at that level. Durant's one of the guys. And then Curry slash Clay, I think, is the other. One of those, every game, one of those guys is going to be doing it. So it's a special team. I do not have as much hatred for it as others, just because I love watching

great basketball. I love game one. I love game three. It was amazing to be in the building for those games. They were really, really spectacular. LeBron's 51 pointer in game one was transcendent. Just watching him try to beat this team by himself and then having his teammates screw the game up for him. It was just a memorable night. It really was. Probably a night that could have paved the way for the end of his relationship with Cleveland, unfortunately, for the fans here

because they love that dude. You could feel it last night. Even watching the video screen in the beginning, it's LeBron for 15 seconds before you see another teammate. So this might have a painful ending. On the other hand, he had a bunch of great years here, and he's one of the three best players of all time, and everybody here gets to say that he passed through their life.

So we'll see how it goes. But strange series. It might end up being like the best 4-0 series we've ever had if game four is competitive and the Warriors win that. I can't remember a more competitive series where the team is up 3-0. You can make a case there was like four plays in those game one, game three, where if they go Cleveland's way, they're up 2-1, which is crazy. But that's where we are.

But when you're relying on Rodney Hood, who hasn't played in four weeks, to carry your offense for large stretches of a fourth quarter in a must-win game, you're probably not meant to win the title anyway. Coming up, we're going to take one quick break, and then we're going to throw it to an interview I did on Thursday that, in my opinion, is my favorite podcast

I've ever done in my entire life. Charles Oakley. I've been waiting to do this one for 10 years. To say it exceeded expectations is an understatement. Hold on to your hats for this one. Speaking of exceeding expectations, let's talk about Gillette. They've been sponsoring sports since 1910. They did an ad with Honus Wagner, John McGraw, Harry Davis, and Hugh Jennings. All of them were plugging the Gillette safety razor.

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All right, here we go. Me, Charles Oakley. Let's do it. What an honor. Thursday afternoon, Cleveland, Ohio. The man, the myth, the legend, Charles Oakley. Thank you. You just floated around.

Thanks for coming to my city. That's the most important thing. See, I didn't realize this was your city. Yeah. I just thought you roamed the United States and that every city was your city and wherever you went became your city. I really claim here in Chicago, Toronto, New York, Virginia, Alabama. Not Vegas? No.

Vegas. Alabama. Not Vegas? No. No. Vegas. Alabama? Why Alabama? My mother, my family from there, my mother, grandfather, all of them from there. So I was in and out of Alabama. Matter of fact, I got a camp down there next month. We've been doing a camp down there for 30 years.

That's how Ben Wallace made it. He came to my camp. Oh, yeah, yeah. And the year he came, we only charged like $25. And most of the kids down there, you know, low-income families, and they couldn't afford it. So I said, no way, we're not charging nothing after that. Wow.

So it was a free camp every year, you know, for 30 years. About 250 kids. Me and my cousin, Margaret's cameras, and we invite a few other guys who went to the University of Alabama to come help us out and just family and friends. Why Toronto? Because you played there? Played there.

A lot of love. I mean, they showed me a lot of love. After I left Toronto, the fans, it was more of a hockey town. Yeah. And they love their hockey. They haven't won in 50 years, but the tradition,

like Cleveland football team, they haven't won since Jim Brown, but they love Brown. They still stood out. Last two years, they won the game, but this year should be a big year for Cleveland Browns. Jalen Rose, my friend who I worked with at ESPN. That's my guy.

He loved Toronto. Yeah, he was there. He said that it was the most underrated city to be a professional athlete in. Probably in the top, just in the top five cities, you know, just fun and restaurants. What's your top five? Let's hear it.

You got to go New York. Yeah, somehow you played in New York, Chicago, and Toronto. Right. Three fun cities. Well, L.A. and Dallas. You know, Miami is just, you know, the glamour, like, you know, just party life. But as far as food, Dallas, Chicago, you know, New York, and L.A.

L.A. gives you that Hollywood feeling, and, you know, you feel and L.A. L.A. gives you that Hollywood feeling and, you know, you feel good out there. The weather was nice in Miami. But Miami just jump on you. Yeah. Miami has not been a good place for certain young NBA players. It's tough. Miami ain't really a lot of trouble, I think.

Really? Not to me. I mean, yeah, they got clubs there in the late at night, you know, most times. But I don't see that in Miami. You know, late night New York can be bad. Late night Chicago can be bad. Late night L.A. can be bad. Right.

You know, all them cities, you know, you got to watch yourself. The first time we met, we didn't really meet, but we kind of met. It was, and I wrote about it. You probably saw it at some point. In 2006, All-Star Weekend Houston. Okay. I was at the Four Seasons bar. Yeah, we hung out the whole night just. Yeah.

Jordan, people in and out. So we're sitting there. That was fun. We're having lunch, and we're having Bloody Marys. And all of a sudden, you show up, and you're, like, scoping out, and you find a table. And you, like, pick the table, and you sat down. And then 10 minutes later, Jordan comes.

And then a couple other people. 13 hours straight. And we're sitting there, and I'm saying, first of all, we were like, oh, my God, there's Jordan and Oakley. This is insane. And then I was like, the cards are going to come out. I can feel it. I know the cards are coming.

And a half hour, and the cards came out and all of a sudden it's on he's playing people are coming in and out oh yeah everyone's coming over to pay respects for you and then i wrote and the thing i wrote about it you stood up and you were looking at the food we ate because we decided to order again and you were looking at our cheeseburgers right come on real picky with you were standing over our table and you're like what's that cheeseburger and i all of us were like, Oak wants our cheeseburger. Just give it to him. He's going to take it.

But we were just watching. And it was like the real Jordan. I'd never seen that side. We'd always heard about the competitive up until 5 in the morning Jordan. But we actually got to see it. He's yelling at everybody. He's trying to bully people. It was great.

As a matter of fact, we did the same thing in new york the last all-star in new york we went to what the fish it's a fish uh hut yeah so they had a private room right so basically it was like 20 people having dinner the next thing you know nelly come then uh ti come then the whole i mean in a night we had 60 people in the room, the whole 25. Do you, I know you and Jordan are super, super, super close. Right. Do you, when you're playing cards, are you on the same team?

Do you try to take each other's money? How does that work? We don't, if we play poker, we don't raise one another, but. Oh, so you have like an understanding. So yeah, you know, we just, okay. We play in like spades and big whiz it's like talking mess and come out but i like my chances though they said he was talking on first take about jordan how he hit i mean i don't know i never heard the steve kerr story i heard i've

been around him i've been anxious you know i don't know what happened with that steve kerr was really did something because i've never seen him that I've been, he's just, you know, I don't know what happened with that. Steve Curry was really did something. Cause I've never seen him that angry. They want to hit someone. But besides one time in the Bahamas, this guy was like, you know, just getting to him,

getting to him. And I was at another table and just, you know, the guy was just getting to him. So I walk over and like, he's, no, I got this.

I said, okay, hell it. He went off on this guy. I'm like, whoa. But no, he's a lot of fun.

You just got to be around him a lot more. I want to go back because we're going to go backwards a little later. I want to talk about LeBron versus Jordan first. You were around Jordan before he became the super-duper star when it was like the seeds were there. And then you had to go against him for that whole decade. Right. And now you're in the same city with the guy everybody's comparing him to i know you get asked this all the time but

what are the similarities for you the similarities it's not a lot i mean both of them great athletes they different type of scores different type of demeanors um one's the way the size is 15. One's the way the size is 13. One's 6'9", one's 6'6". So 6'6", 2'7", and one's, I mean,

one's 6'9", 2'7", and one's 6'6", 2'20". Yeah. But on the court, they're just different. Everybody keeps,

it's like two different books. We'll explain it. What makes them different? The way they carry themselves? They carry themselves. LeBron, you know reading nothing but

stuff like great stuff about him Michael's great stuff LeBron do a lot of charity stuff more in the public Michael do a lot more behind the scenes

so LeBron more outgoing but Michael image just people just in love with him yeah so you know

Michael Jordan did this he won six championships and you know three three nobody never this. He won six championships in, you know, 3-3. Nobody had ever done that. He retired, come back and win three. When he got there, he just never went to a game seven. Six MVPs. You know, just played with the flu.

He just, you know, just he's on the edge. He's going to pull your heart out. LeBron not like that. LeBron, you know, like some people, oh, he hurt Michael. LeBron would take the doctor. Mike probably, you know, like some people, oh, he hurt Michael. LeBron would take the doctor. Mike probably said, okay, he all right. Right. Put a band-aid on him.

And Michael's definitely, I would say, probably the biggest alpha dog we've. I didn't see Russell. I wasn't there for Russell. But I think the stories about Russell were pretty similar. Yeah. They just want to cut your heart out at all times. I mean, it was seeing like, I mean, yeah, they said a lot about Russell, Chamber,

a lot of them guys back in the days. If you just try to think about basketball back then, it was like a lot less game, a lot less rounds of playoffs. So you win, what, like 40-game season maybe? It was like 60 to 70. It eventually got to 80. Two rounds of playoff. Yeah, the playoffs were short.

I mean, I don't care what they say. It wasn't that much talent back then. Yeah. So they were supposed to dominate. Well, with Russell's first five years, like a lot of teams only had one or two black players, which is crazy when you think about it now. The Celtics were the first team that had more of them.

But the thing about Russell, DeAndre Jordan, if he ever wanted to be good, he should watch film on Bill Russell. How did you change a game with just doing, not being a great score, but just defense, rebound, protecting the rim. I mean, some guys need to learn and maybe say, wow. Because at this day and time, a big man almost, you know, most teams don't want it because you've got to be a stretch four. Because at this day and time, a big man almost ain't no one. Because you gotta be a stretch four.

You'd be shooting eight threes a game now? Yeah, I mean, I didn't shoot. You shot some anyway. I didn't shoot them. I mean, so everybody said, you can't play. I think, not being cocky, I was like, my game, just my game. No matter what they say, I can play any era. They said, no, you'll foul out. I said, no, I ain't gonna I can play any era. They say, no, you're a foul out.

I said, no, I ain't no foul out, because ain't nobody foul. They ain't coming to the rim. Yeah. I think you would have enjoyed pushing around the guys in this day and age. I would have got a lot of speed. There's a lot of softness these days.

What about when like Tristan Thompson's pointing, come meet me in the tunnel after the game, but you know they're not actually gonna meet in the tunnel. In your day, if you pointed in the tunnel, you would have met in the tunnel. I ain't no, we would have met in the tunnel. No, we're going to take care of it right here. Let everybody see it.

Let everybody see it. But no, it's just different. These guys are just different. And the change, my nephew didn't play AAU. I was like, why y'all play this? You don't learn nothing. Well, you're traveling. You're spending your money.

Your mom and dad, every pair of shoes come out. Well, we were doing it for a ranking. I said, I'm looking at top 200. I don't see y'all. We all trying to be ranked at 300? So I stay on my nephew. And I said, you shouldn't have to pay to play basketball at a young age. Right.

You know, go to the park or get two friends or just go out and shoot on your own. When you miss, like, set some rules for yourself. If you miss, if it bounces twice, you got to do a suicide. If it bounces once, you shoot a free throw. Just do something to make your game get more better. In a big moment, it's like, wow, I know I've been doing this. I'm ready for this moment. And then you watch guys not playing, like, oh, Lord.

You'd be like, how did they make the team? And they're making $15, $20 million. And if somebody shoves you from behind on a layup, you're fighting them. That was your error. Somebody, if you get shoved from behind on a layup,

that's a fight. Well, according to how you shoved, you know, you're trying to hold. If it's to knock you off balance. Oh, yeah. Like what JR did.

Yeah, that's a fight. I would have fought him the next two games. Even though I wouldn't have been able to win him, I would have found out where he was going after the game. You saw what he did to Horford, right?

Yeah. That was cheap. He's a nice guy. That's one thing. All he's going to do, he's going to be consistent when he's 14 and 7 or 15 and 8 every year. That's what he's going to average. I think there's a lot of similarities to JR and Starks

where it's like he check guys hit or miss you don't know where you're getting game to game i mean jr you think john was tougher than jr yeah i mean but remember when jett when stark's headbutted reggie miller that time i feel like jr would have been involved in something like that i mean jr be out i'll be wondering what he is he watching the game or he just got the best seat in the house? I mean, you're a catch-and-shoot player. Stop dribbling the ball. That's not your game, trying to do something off the dribble.

I mean, it's just understand your role. I mean, I don't think coaches tell players their role no more to the team. And I think in Cleveland's case, LeBron got the ball in the hand and he won't space the floor. Everybody says, just space the floor. We okay. Yeah, just stand there. You can't know all the details, the particulars he won't space the floor. Everybody says, just space the floor, we okay. Yeah, just stand there. You got to know all the details,

the particulars, or, you know, moments. Like the other night, the moments, like in that game one and going to the state, the moment. I mean,

everybody knows the dead ball foul. You got to look around, you see what's going on, you're interacting with the bench or the coaches, you're like, okay,

what happened to this A and B? That's one thing that's good about Bush Carter in Toronto. He kept details, he kept understanding, like, okay, what happened to this A and B? That's one thing that was good about Butch Carter in Toronto. He kept details. He kept understanding, like, timeouts. I mean, he was so detailed. He's probably one of the best coaches I've been around. Interesting.

Yeah, I don't know why he don't have a job. It's probably, how old is Butch Carter now? I mean, he probably late 50s. I have some Vince questions for you later. Do you, how many Cavs games are you actually going to during the course of a year? Do you have a feel for this team, you think? Oh, I've been, I'm on Cleveland, you know.

I was going to, I ain't even started going because of LeBron. I was going before then. I was going out of the high school here. I used to go out to the Coliseum with Jones and Campy. Oh, wow. Austin Carr. Nate Thurman. All them guys, you know, like on Sundays.

I was in high school, but they didn't let me play too much because they always had two courts. Yeah. You know, practice courts. So we used to play on the side. But one of my cousins knew them, so he let us go out there. But then once I got older, they was playing Cleveland Summer League, Jones and all them.

I paid them back. I was getting at them. Oh, really? Yeah. Jones was tough. Yeah, Jones, yeah. He had tripled his sons, but they didn't make it to the league. But I got a chance to play Summer League against some guys

and learning the ropes. When you seen them when I was a kid, watching them, like, wow. Couldn't believe, like, being on Smith or Austin Carr, just seeing them guys playing. Yeah, they must have made the finals in 76. My team beat them in the Celtics. It was a battle. They had a good team.

Nate and the Miller, Bingo, Mike Mitchell, they had a, ooh. So watching how LeBron is reacting to the team he has now, because you said when you were coming in that you thought LeBron was going to leave. What do you see with his behavior on the court that makes you think, like, this is the end? This is the finish line?

I don't see the behavior. It's just seeing what's with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean. But do you see it in his eyes? Like, he kind of knows he just doesn't have the winning hand? I see he's a shelf. And he got one guy.

He got one line guy. He got two people waiting on 200 people. And Chef will get frustrated because how can he get all these orders out? Yeah. Four people working out for 200 people. But I don't see it. I think LeBron, like last night, was more of a little laid back. And I think he got to always be aggressive in this situation

with knowing what he got. People don't like when he laid back in a game, don't take charge early come out to score um and lebron just a different guy he just he do it his way no matter what people say i mean you can't argue the guy the guy been eight straight finals you know he ain't one but three um and everybody's trying to hold that against him but my thing is what he do with body work night in night out i mean he got to buy the groceries. He got to do all the chopping for the vegetables.

He got to cook it. He got to serve it. I mean, they're going to wear on these two. Clean the tables. Clean the table. Mop the floor. Sterilize them. And then if anyone helps out, he's excited.

He's like, oh, JR, you're going to take some plates. Thanks. No. That's great. Michael didn't have it this bad. What's the thing about this era with LeBron doing, the teams ain't tough like when Michael was coming up.

When I was first in Chicago, we went through with the Boston, the Detroit, and then. Well, your conference was sick. It was tough. Those 80s teams were like, that was brutal. I'm saying it's a little less talent, but still it's just what his guys, not the detail.

I can't understand the detail. The detail is not there like it used to be. They're not holding themselves accountable. I mean. I realized last night, being at the game, when they showed the video before they introduced the starters. Every other NBA team, they show that video, and it's like they'll show the first four stars of the team like in a row and it's like a team this video it's like it's lebron for 15 seconds straight it's like a lebron infomercial and then they start sprinkling in like tristan thompson but yeah it's just so obvious it's like the cleveland lebron they try to get all the last look if you do leave then you know

the last look they can get but if i was lebr I would be like, let's make the video like a team. Let's do this. That's what, like, if you watch Golden State, KD come out first, Klay, and what's the name, come back to back. Right, Curry's last. Right, Curry's last.

And they, no matter what KD do, and just like when Garnett went to Boston. It was still Pierce's team. No. The league wanted to be Garnett's team. No, I know, but they introduced Pierce last.

It was Pierce's team. He was still got the last, whatever. You see how they moved Garnett in there? Like, everything was Garnett because he was slobbing out of his mouth, this and that. All that fake tough stuff. But, you know, you ain't that guy. Did you mix up with Garnett? Man, come on.

I like beating up a fly. Anthony Peeler punched him once. Yeah, well, they played together in Minnesota. Jalen and I used to talk about this all the time. There's two types of tough guys. The tough guys and then the guys who actually fight. He didn't get tough. Which you were the captain of that team.

You're like, no, if you're going to look at me that way, I'll actually fight you right now get tough which you were the captain of that team you're like no if you're gonna look at me that way I'll actually fight you right now no doubt there's not a lot of those dudes no it's

I know you had your issues with Barkley over the years but Barkley would throw I mean maybe he wasn't happy only against white

guys he don't he don't hit no brothers no he ain't gonna with Shaq him and Shaq don't get into it one day. He tackled Shaq.

That was pretty good. I mean, really. If I'm Shaq, I would have been doing something to him. Well, you played with the only guy that was probably more unafraid than you was Mason. No, that's my man, Mace. Mace, like, I don't know who was more ready to go between you two, but it was at least a tie.

Yeah, that's my guy, Mace. He did the two of you together. It was like a hockey team. Yeah, we- They had to change it was at least a tie. Yeah. It was my guy. The other two of you together it was like a hockey team. Yeah. They had to change the rules because of you guys. Yeah. We were the real

they said Detroit had the Blues brother we had the Naga brothers me and Mase. Yeah. But no. I had a great time playing with Mase though.

Everyone blames the bad boy Pistons for when they changed the rules it's like no. It was the Rallys next. You, X-Man, Mason. Robert was soft. Isaiah was just tall.

Sally. Wait a second, though. Isaiah was the toughest guy on that team, though. He would throw. That's what I'm saying. He's soft. He went at Bill Cartwright at that time. He was like a foot taller.

No, he would come after me. He never came after you? Really? How many fights did you have? You had a good one with X-Man. Yeah. Me and X had a little something. That went in the stands. he would come after me. He never came after you? Really? How many fights did you have? I wouldn't look at it. You had a good one with X-Man. Yeah, me and X had a little something, but I mean. That went in the stands.

Isaiah, you know, my thing is, he didn't get his credit for being a point guard, you know? Right. But my thing with Isaiah, he talked bad about the Knicks one day when he was there. And he tried to throw us on the bus, talking about, yeah, y'all won the championship. Okay, that's good, we tried.

But you ain't gonna talk to me as long as I'm living about Knicks or somebody I play with who I really care for, so you can go kick rocks with that. So ever since then, I've been having like, kind of like, you better watch me when I'm around. So you don't wanna do a three-man podcast, me, you, and Isaiah? That wouldn't go well?

I might do it, but like you said, he gonna be nervous, I'm not. All right, quick break to talk about Squarespace. Think it, dream it, make it. With Squarespace, our friends, they make it easy

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Who are the real legitimate tough guys other than you and Mason when you played? Ron Artest. Ron Artest? For real. Steven Jackson? He up there. I mean, Steven Jackson went in the stands to defend Artest. That was pretty good.

Yeah. They were looking for popcorn, though. No, Steven Tough. I coached him in Charlotteotte so we had a little run in but you know i gotta say ben wallace ben wallace the way he reacted before the air test melee i think i think he was gonna fight that entire team he he moved up and that's my god man yeah he was ready to go and you and your guy you know that's my first time seeing me really get like you know like saying somebody must really did something.

I mean, you know what he did. Or tested. He gave him a hard foul in the minute left. No, I'm saying maybe some days that some people in life, you don't know what's going through his head. Yeah. So he might have something going. He said, this is my time.

Just get it out of me. So that's what could have happened. Because I ain't never expect him to do all of that, what he done that game. Hakeem was a secret tough guy. He had a lot of fights the first couple years of his career but he done that game. Hakeem was the secret tough guy. He had a lot of fights the first couple years of his career. He punched some dudes. When we came into the league, that's what you had to do.

You had to let them know. I just fight. Clemens used to play in Seattle, a few guys. McCaskey. Patrick. Oh, yeah, you punched McCaskey. I think he broke his nose. Yeah, he shot me. My thing is, you know when somebody's playing hard

or somebody's just trying to get one in, like you ain't going to let it go. No. I would have thought he hit me one time. I said, okay, I know him. He did it again. I didn't think about did I know him or not. I had to give it to him.

I was at the game in 87 when the day after Bird and Rodman. By the way, the legend would throw down Larry Bird. He would throw. He got into it with Doc. He stuck up with himself. Yeah, he fought Doc. He fought Alan Bristow. He fought Marco Ravarone.

He would go at people. But he got in the fight with Lambert. Then the next game, Parrish was just. Game one, two. He hated Lambert. And then he just, Parrish was just... Game one, two. He hated Lambert, and then he just snapped and he got in the two-piece. And they kept him in the game, because it was the 80s. But see, the thing is,

when Lambert... McHale took out... What's the name from Detroit? Oh, Rambis. Oh, L.A. That's just a tension. He just didn't even... Most of the time, people are like, well, you play dirt. I say, I. He just ain't even, you know, just like, okay.

Most of the time, like people are like, well, you play dirt. I say, I don't play dirt. I go for the ball. I mean, at least have my arm. But I ain't just trying to tackle like a football player. I mean, I could have, but I don't, and that's dirty. So I just try to tell people, know what you're talking about when you're talking about, I play dirt.

I don't play dirt. I play hard. When you were with Jordan in the eighties, when it was way more physical and cheap, you became, your reputation became the kind of bodyguard, for lack of a better word, for Jordan. Like if you mess with him, Oakley's right there and you will pay for this. I just had a badge with no guns.

Right. You know, when you're a bodyguard, when you ain't got a gun, you just got a badge, you got to know what you got to do. Did you have to lay the smack down before everybody realized, don't touch Jordan or Oakley's right there? No, I guess they just seen, like, on the court, and then we was always together, you know.

You know, a lot of stuff happened behind the scenes. Yeah. He got into a guy's, you would never believe, like, gas. I don't know if a guy was maybe jealous because he came, when he came in the league, he just came in, like, just over the top. You know, his rookie year. He had posters and shoes. What I'm saying is, in Carolina,

he didn't show you what he showed you his first year in the league. He was just over the top. The dunks, the dunk contest, and, you know, just all-star. You know, he was just like – you know, them guys back in the day, they was – he was real jealous. in the day, they was real jealous. A lot of the veterans was real jealous. Do you think that all-star game story was true when they froze the map?

Oh yeah, I can see that. Isaiah and a couple other people. Yeah, because he was taking their light. Yeah. And he was taking them, you know. I mean, what he was doing as a rookie, I mean, that was, I mean, they was starting, hey, I'll even grow a little more.

When did you show up, 86? 85, 86? I came 85, 86. So you were there for when he went against the Celtics. When he hit the 64. The 63 pointer. When he came back, because he had a broken, yeah. And Bird was the first guy who was like, that guy's amazing.

That guy's going to be the future of the league. Nobody had really said that yet. He gave Bird about 10 straight shots, so. And Bird can score himself, so he like, oh. What's crazy, and he had really said that yet. He gave Burry about 10 straight shots. And Burry can score himself. So he was like, oh. What's crazy, and he had 49 in game one. What was crazy about that was I think that's the best team of all time. And they also had a bunch of guys to throw at him.

You know, they had DJ, but they also had McHale. And he was just fouling everybody out. They had, what's his name? I mean, they had, Boston had, what, four Hall of Fames on their team. Yeah. See, my thing is people used to be like, oh, this, this, oh, LeBron. LeBron playing with four guys, worked for the city. I mean, starting to line up with him.

Right. You know? So, Michael Jordan had Scottie, Horst, then he had Dennis. But Magic had him, Kareem James. I mean, you know, they had Hall of Famers. Kareem. The league was, the league, league had 21 teams back then. It was talent, though.

If you had 21 teams now. It still would be bad. You think so? I think the talent's really good right now. No. It's just too many teams. You know what it is? You know why talent look good?

Because the team's bad, too. The bad team playing the team's badder than them. That's why talent look good. Because the score's going to be under 100. Oh, that's a good game. 12, you know, guys, team be shooting 12 for like 25 for the free throw. Is that a good game? You miss 15 seconds for the free throw line?

Then you're in, you know, 8 for 41 from threes. I mean, I don't mind you taking threes, but don't say you can take one leg, two legs. You got okay. You can shoot 40-somethings because y'all got snipers on your team. But the mother team, you got standing. It's a big difference. What would you do against Golden State? What would the Rileys'

Knicks have done against them? Other than knock them into the basket and support? No, I would just make... We're going to trap the ball. See, the thing is now, these new generation of this new era of basketball, they don't like moving around. All they want, you know, defense, a good defense team. They like to switch.

They like to switch. That's the girl way. It's serious. That's the girl way. But they're going to make you move by this to keep you engaged with the game. They're showing you're smart. But switches ain't nothing. See you trap everybody, leave Draymond Green open.

You leave Iguodala open. I'll make Draymond, yeah. You make Draymond shoot 10 threes. I think just like last night, this guy running to him, he ain't played in two weeks. Just let him shoot. Why close out to him? Cause he gonna pass too.

There was a moment in the second half where they swung at him in the corner. He was wide open, there's nobody within 10 feet. And then he swung it away. Once I saw that, if I'm Cleveland, I'm like, don't guard him at all. Make him hit two. And I wouldn't guard Draymond either.

He just won't throw a lob and holler at somebody's face. Draymond's funny though. I've been out with him in New York a couple of times. Draymond's kind of, he's in your family a little bit of what the stuff he does on the court. He could be a cousin. Yeah. But if you were going against him in a series,

your goal would be to get him thrown out of every game, right? No, I wouldn't have to. I'm just going to beat him down. Draymond's not that big. That's why I can't believe he beat, like, Aldridge for San Antonio. Draymond was 6'6", about 215. Yeah. And he'd be moving these big guys around like they're furniture.

Nothing. Yeah, he does carry himself like he's bigger than he is. He ain't got no muscles. I got more muscle than Draymond. I mean, a guy got no muscle going to move me? Really? Come on. He do a lot of talking.

Oh, man. JR was trying to get him kicked out last night. JR, man. Draymond had one technical, and then JR was trying to get him kicked out last night. JR, man. JR. J-Mod had one technical, and then JR was trying to get the double technical again. See, when you winning, you get away a little more. Yeah. That's how Chicago got away with not a little everything. But with Boston, Chicago might be the worst.

I mean, if you touch McHale or someone in the post. Oh, I knew you'd bring up Mikael. He was tough to guard and they give him, they let him travel. He go up and under, he gonna get the call. I mean, he, for some moves- Mikael talk shit to you. No. No, he did.

He talked a little. Oh, okay. He would talk about how he could take you in the torture chamber. No, he gonna get, I'm gonna get mine too, but he gonna get more shots. So he gonna get advantage. I give him his prop. I ain't scared to give someone who can do it. Then like call him alone.

He's good, but he cry a lot. I don't like cry babies. You can too big to cry. I mean, like you the mailman. The rain, what you going to do? Stay in the house? Rain the mail. What'd you think when he took out Isaiah?

I mean, you know. Because that seemed intentional. If that happened now, if you open an intentional flying elbow 40-stitch cut. That's five games. Oh, I think it would be like 12 to 15. Because Isaiah was still one of the best players in the league. He took him out. I mean, it was like a gash.

Yeah, I've seen that blood. But Isaiah probably, see, he's sneaky. He didn't do something. He got me one turn. I've been, I won't. Oh, Isaiah was like, him and Stockton was another one, right? He'll do something. Walk, you know. Clyde Dressers did it.

You know, he did that one time in New York. I was like, you know what? I was hoping he'd go to the hole. He ain't go to the hole no more. We played like three more years, man. I ain't never seen him go to the hole. After he did that? Yeah, I was waiting.

Yeah, I was going to had to get 12 games. So people knew if they made you mad that you were in the back of their heads after that? No, just little cheap shots, because I ain't never tried a cheap shot no more. Stockton was another one. He'd set those picks, he'd like punch people in the balls and stuff.

You can't get bad by a guard, but what Isaiah did was like, you know, besides talk bad about us in the paper. You can't do that not while I'm living. I think the Isaiah thing, Malone, like Isaiah and Stockton. I think Malone did that for Stockton. No, he did. Okay. Isaiah got left off the Olympic team the first game after that

because Stockton made it over him. And he torched Stockton. He had like 46 on him. Then the next game, Malone gave him the elbow. Then nobody liked Hazell. So when everybody like you, and you get another guy who's solid, this and that, and league-like, you got Bird, Magic, them guys almost can call the shots.

You know. And then they said, well, Mike, you you know they said Mike had something I don't think Mike probably told him he probably said well you got some of the other guys I might not come

so they can try they had to find out what the dirt was yeah so the dirt was okay and Isaiah had a run in so who we want who you want

Michael Isaiah I know what side you were on on that one huh I know what side you were on on I'm not saying for what he was doing for the Olympics

Mike sold tickets he was the face of the dream team once Michael was like I'd like to I'll do the Olympic team but Isaiah can't be on it that's it they're like okay Michael okay Mr. Jordan

have you been in a situation in playoff series where you're down 3-0 like the Cavs are now because you go 1-2-8 Have you been in a situation in playoff series where you're down 3-0? Ooh. Like the Cavs are now? Because you're going 1-2-8, right? I was down 2-0 in Boston. But we came back and we got them. New York.

It was 3 out of 5, though. We won 3-0. No, I went to game 5. Bird missed the dunk. Bird missed the dunk. Patrick. And the crowd made a sound I've never heard before. It was like he had been shot by a sniper or something. Everybody was like, oh.

And then you made that three in the corner. Back when he didn't really take threes ever. No, he took a few. You know who killed us in that game? Mo Cheeks. Yeah. It was the one time that Mo Cheeks' trickling trade worked. Mo Cheeks, see, Mo Cheeks is like Sean Livingston.

Yeah. Do everything in his range. Know how to give the ball to the guys when he has to. Yeah. Sean Livingston just killing people. So when you're down 3-0, either you fight to keep the series going, which they did last year, or the guys on that team are like, you know what, I'm ready for the season to end.

I don't want to fly to Oakland and then have to be there when they're celebrating game five. I'm checking out now. Could you see that happening in this series? They down 3-1⁄2? They down three and a half. So it's just a half left with them. So a half, and they got to play a full. They don't add up.

So I don't know. I think when you're down, it's 0-3. It's just what you've been doing the last three games. I know the first game you could have won, but it's just I don't see. You don't have the players. The body of the players. Who can get you 30 besides LeBron? Nobody. Who can get you 20? Maybe

Love? Yeah, Rodney Hood was doing that junk spin move he has a couple times yesterday, and it was like, wow, Rodney Hood is carrying LeBron for it. Like Walter Berry. Yeah, the truth. Spin and this and that. He goes right, spins right into the guy and puts his elbows in his head. So my thing is, if you had this all the time, that's another asset for your team.

Because LeBron don't have to work hard. Right. Post-Hood, because it seemed like he'd get to the rim. That was their biggest mistake in this series was playing Clarkson over Hood. Hood's one of those guys. I don't know if you've played with guys like this, you know within three minutes whether they're going to be good or not that day. So you throw them out, and if he

doesn't have it, that's it. But play Hood on the post. He's like... Yeah. They got to double-team him. With Clarkson, I watched him, he's just trying to get... He's just like AAU. He's just trying to get his own numbers. He's got no kind of structure, no kind of standards. It's the finals, you got to play to win the team. He don't have none of that.

That's what all the other teams have. So they don't allow coaching no more. You probably get 14 out of 13 maybe getting good coaches on a regular basis now. The Durant-LeBron, you could feel it last night. Durant was incredible last night. Yeah, he walked out. And that's been a rivalry this whole decade. And Durant now has the upper hand on it. He catching up. They guard each other, all walked out. And that's been a rivalry this whole decade. And Durant now has

the upper hand on it. He catching up. They guard each other. All that stuff. It's good now. You know what? In life, everybody take over

when they shift change. Like, you know what I'm saying? When Mike was taking over, Magic was getting over. Burry was getting over. Yeah. So now LeBron, you know,

they ain't about three or four years apart, but still, 15 years doing what he, body work, night in, night out, playing with them guys. I mean, it's like a year and a half. Every year is a year and a half for LeBron. Right.

He's playing 100 games every year. Yeah, so he puts so much in the KD. Just – the guy just so good. You know, he carry a lot, but they let you do – when you got the craft and you do it every time, they let you do it. Like they let Jay Holland travel every time. So my thing, he's just so big for the league. And then he got that crossover.

He's 7'1". And Cleveland's switching from a 6'8 guy to a 6'3 guy on him. And not trapping. Duh. And not trapping. That's why the switching hurt you. You don't need to switch.

Durant's definitely one of the most unique players in the history of the league. He's special. There was nobody when you were playing that is like, oh, he kind of reminds me of Durant's definitely one of the most unique players in the history of the league. There was nobody when you were playing that is like, oh, he kind of reminds me of Durant. It's like that person did not exist. The seven foot shooting forward. I got a good Durant story about what, five, six years ago, All-Star weekend.

So Jordan always having the parties and this and that. I go, woo woo. So he comes and he had a sweatsuit on, tennis shoes. I'm like, where you going? He said, I'm talking, I said, no, we wear suits at this party. We don't wear tennis shoes and sweatsuits. I told him at the door.

You made him leave? No, he, well, he ain't get, but anyway, I was there, but he got in, but I had left. But we shot the commercial for Sprint and we talked about it. Yeah, he was young. He needed an Oakley on OKC those first few years. Yeah.

I think Perkins is a little bit like that. No, I don't know about all that. No, I mean, in terms of the old veteran kind of showing him the ropes. He's trying to bring it to Cleveland, but the game ain't like that now. These guys don't listen. Do you think what Perkins on the bench wearing a suit, trying to intimidate people? No, they don't.

That doesn't work, right? No. Not with Curry. They said Curry looked at him. See all this? When Curry made the three-point at halftime, when JR went for the steal, we didn't want the other one, we wanted the other two. I did the crowd.

See, second half, I would have bumped him. Like, okay, what about 4,001, 4,005, 4,006? These guys, all this celebration. I mean, I don't think nobody just took somebody out just because they celebrate every play. They don't run out of court. They got to do a dance, celebrate, you know, the wigger. You know, so, I mean, I guess it's like I said, it's a different ball game. Let them have fun while they can.

You know, we did what we fought, so I guess that was bad, too. I went to a game, Celtics, whatever team Jerry Stackhouse was on in like 97, 98. Detroit, maybe? Yeah, maybe Detroit. Stackhouse, by the way, one of the toughest. Stackhouse would throw down. Yeah, he had attitude. Sometimes you got to see him.

I ain't never seen him in a fight, but I know that he had the attitude. I played with him in Washington. Yeah. So him and Mike used to go at one. They used to have – Right. Mike, it doesn't matter what his age, when he on the floor, you're going to get it.

So Antoine, the Celtics are winning, and Antoine makes a three, and he's doing this crazy wiggle. And Stackhouse was really mad about it. Oh, yeah. So somebody else was shooting free throws and Stackhouse just walks over to Antoine. And Antoine's like all happy and he walks over and he just whispers something in his ear. And Antoine was like a five-year-old kid and he just didn't make another move for the rest of the game. And they just walked out. He talked a lot.

I don't know what he said to him, but he was like, he probably said, if you do one more thing, I'm beating the shit out of you after the game. He talked a lot, I remember I was the boss and he was talking shit. You know, he was doing a shake before, you know. Oh, he was one of the first ones. He would shake and I said, okay.

That was that era where you came on the league in the 80s and that there was people handling their business a little bit of a different way. And then around the mid 90s, guys started really acting out in the court. And I don't know, and you combine with the flagrant fouls, it did feel like basketball was- Yeah, flagrant foul hurt the game though.

That Davis Turner shit, he's so much a control freak. He was just like, you know- So you think that went too far? Oh yeah, he went too far with that. I mean, okay, now the new rule two years ago, you couldn't show off an official. Every play they show off official now. They don't call no tech or nothing.

Right. I mean, they might want to throw the book out the window and they say, I mean, commission, just write down five things. Okay, maybe we won't do them. So it's crazy now. We're going to take a break. One last break to talk about Peter Millar.

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Let's go backwards. Okay. So you get traded from the Bulls. Right. But you're tight with Jordan. Right. And then you get traded before Jordan wins all these titles. Right.

You go to the Knicks. Right. You're right there. Right there. I mean, the 93 series. A couple of bouts. It's 2-2 after four. A couple of calls.

Charles Smith game. Yeah. I think he got fouled on one of those four you know i don't know how pippen blocked them four straight times from behind or whatever the hell was happening it's an incredible game that's why um go ahead well i was just and then 94 obviously 3-2 going back to houston yeah um so close like do you feel now you look back in your career like there's this missing piece that you don't know what it's like? Or is it like I had a great career?

I don't care. Well, Michael always said I was born at the wrong time. So in his era. But I said, well, we put up a fight every night. You might have beat us, but we wouldn't lose by no 15 or 20. Yeah. Four or six points. But, I mean, he was the best six points but i mean he was the best

they said he was the best player in the series when we played uh he showed it when he had to um you know we had patrick and it was two different players and um i think you know we went to war we got we can't hold our head you know somebody gotta win somebody gotta lose but we put up a fight you know we put up a fight, you know, we put up a fight every time we went out there every night. What do you think was the best of those Knicks teams?

Because you had some bad luck with injuries and stuff a couple of those years. Well, one year, when Patrick, you know, Miami, they suspended him for walking on the court.

Yeah. Westbrook did it this year. They just finally won a game. Kevin Love did it in game, the end of game one. So I guess different commission do different things. That's what I'm saying. There's no rules game, the end of game one. Right. So I guess different commission and do different things. That's what I'm saying.

There's no rules, set rules no more in life. There's a lot of things that make it different. Yeah. It's like the call one to Golden State. How can you go to instant replay

on a block, a charge, a block call? It's just instinct. But, but back then we just, you know, we,

we thought we had enough, but we didn't, we didn't make the big shots when we needed to, and it seemed like they had the big shot maker. I think in Chicago's series when we played them, we never got no calls. And they said to beat the champs, you got to, like, you know, beat them.

You can't be close because the city is going to go to the champ. Right. Yeah, it is. It's like boxing. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting i actually agree with you on that i felt that way with the celtics cab series oh yeah i just felt like that celtics were young right lebron did that lebron was the best part in the court and he's gonna get

some calls especially at home you gotta learn how to deal with that like when lannan was trying to get through boston back in dominica era and And the Celtics got all the calls against Atlanta. Got all the calls. I agree. And if you keep it closed. That's why when we beat Boston back in, we beat them in five games. And we, you know, we beat them, came back to beat three straight. We didn't beat them by four or five.

Whenever you speak of a good team, you got to beat them by a double digit to beat them. That's what happened to the Celtics against Cleveland in game seven. They got it. They had a 12 in the second quarter, but they couldn't get it to beat them. That's what happened to the Celtics against Cleveland in game seven. They got it. They had a 12 in the second quarter, but they couldn't get it to like 18. They let LeBron hang around.

It seemed like the ball just went, you know, I don't know, the mag on the rim, just like, I've never seen Boston,

them guys, Rosario, just miss so many shots. You know, being at home, at home, you totally make them shots. And everybody was talking

about we going home and the crowd behind us. You still got to shoot. You still got to make the shots. Yeah. You had, what was the Starks? That was game seven when he went cold? Yeah, game seven.

To me, that's like, I always look at this stuff as you're looking at a team, whether it was a championship team or not. And if it didn't make it, all right, why didn't they make it? And that season, you guys relied on Starks. Right. Like he was reggie miller and he just wasn't as consistent as reggie miller glenn rice some of the other guys from that decade he was a level below he could get there some games but other games maybe not and in that game you needed him and it's like that was the flaw of the everybody always said why he didn't play

rolanda blackman you know this guy played, scored 20,000 points, you know, in his career with Dallas and then New York. And why not give him a shot, this and that? But Pat Riley, it's his way or the highway. He's going to stick with his gun. That's what Brad Stevens did in game seven. It's like, Rozier couldn't make a shot. I trust you.

You've done this all year. Keep shooting. Marcus Smart, keep shooting. Jalen Brown, keep shooting. I don't know about Marcus Smart, but he should be shooting anyway. He doesn't know that. He's like, J.R., I look at a lot of stats the next day after they play. Yeah.

And most guys I'll be seeing, like, most of them are consistent. Three for nine, two for eight. You know, Marcus Smart. If he do shoot three for six, it's, you know, maybe once a month. So he's not really, you know, that tell you he's not really a great shooter, you know. So that's why you got to pick your poison when you shoot.

Because I always tell guys, if you open, you know who you're playing with, Kyle Corbett. If I'm playing with Kyle Corbett, if I'm open, I'll never take a shot. I'm trying to get him the ball. Right. And that's smarts on the court. And that's why I be telling guys, I'll never take a shot. I'm trying to get him the ball. Right. And that's smarts on the court. And that's why I be telling guys, know who, like Golden State.

Keep in game two when Bale threw the ball to Curry through his leg. Yeah. In front of the bench. Threw the ball because he knew. I mean, that's what they do on Golden State. Yeah, that's a new play they basically created during the playoffs. Like Nick Young. You know he wild and loose and goose.

So he played 18 minutes the other night, only took one shot. I said, you'll never believe this guy gonna take one shot. He need to take five shots in three minutes. So you just understand, the field Jackson philosopher, I guess Steve Kerr must talk to them to death. Like y'all, when I put y'all in, it ain't about scoring,

it's about moving the ball, playing defense, and just giving these guys a break. Unless you're wide open, yeah. I mean, I'd be looking at this like, wow. I can see how they just made the transition. Because early season he was taking a lot of shots, Nick Young. Because he was playing more. Now

he pulled back. When he played in the first round against New Orleans, he felt like, wow, what am I doing wrong? He probably said, well, you know, we don't really need your score. We need you for different periods to come in four or five minutes, get a guy to rest. But we got guys who can shoot. The GM I talked to, Bob Myers, last night of the Warriors, and he was saying one of the things he loves about this team is everybody really pulls for each other.

Everybody wants the other guy to succeed. They really take like sincere delight in that. And that's one of the things I look for with the guys they bring in. Well, that's good. Do you care about your teammates more than yourself? Well. That's a hard place to get to as a basketball team. Well, he changed Nick Young then because he was like, he was LA and DC.

He was like more loose goose, but you can see he improved his, you know, like. Well, if you have the culture, you can bring in basically anybody in that culture. All the guys, probably see what everybody work or what the guys do. Katie and Clay and Steph on a regular day, how they work and go at it. You're probably like, wow, let me try to maneuver myself to be like, hey, I want to be here for two or three years. I got to fit in. It ain't about me. Did you in New York, did you guys feel like you established that culture?

Because you brought in some pretty iffy dudes. Yeah, we brung in some guys. But, you know, Pat Riley, he might have brung in. If you ain't working, he ain't not going to play you. Right, that's it. You know, it's going to be his system or whatever, you know. But they did bring in X and brung in Rolando. We brung in Harper.

We brung in a lot of guys in. I mean, they was veterans, though. But most veterans, like I said, veterans should understand more. They shouldn't be making mistakes like you making in three, four, five years. That's why they put you out there in the situation. Yeah. Who's the best player you ever played with

who wasn't Jordan? Best player? Yeah. Who's number two on the list? Vince or Patrick? I mean, different players. Vince was a high level at one time in his playing. You know, like NBA was like he was pushing him in the field for like marketing and this and that.

Patrick, I don't think they never used him to move the needle. They took Vince to move the needle for the NBA. Well, Patrick, there was also so many great centers. He just had the misfortune that he comes in. Well, Vince came in with a Kobe, you know, Kobe. T-Mac. Wade, T-Mac. Iverson.

But, see, Vince was, when he won the dunk contest, and he was in the North in Toronto. Then he went to two finals in New Jersey. Vince had about at least a good eight-year run with the league. It was like, okay, we can do something with you. Vince, you caught. The jersey, he wasn't there for the two finals. He was there.

I think they traded him in 05. I think he was on the Orlando team. I think that almost made the finals. It was Kenya Martin. You caught the best Vince. Yeah. Yeah, here. Like, that Sixers series was probably the highlight of his career.

Yeah. You know? Went back. Yeah. But, like, I don't know. He, to me, I'm the most unhappy with how his career went of anyone this century for what his talent was. Well, that's what I'm saying.

In Toronto, we held them accountable. Yeah. We didn't let them get away with not doing their stuff after practice or on the phone in the locker room, eating before games. None of that. You know, 6 o'clock being 6 o'clock. You know, you can be the headline or whatever, but you got to be in with us.

See, that's what we done. Him and Trace was on the same team. We told him like, you know what? Y'all are one, two punch and take all the shots you want, but do what you gotta do, get ready for the moment. You were on the team at least one of those years with T-Mac and Vince, right? T-Mac with one year.

Yeah. And then Vince with two. So to me, that's like a, that's one of the great what ifs. One, two punch, yeah. They always said what if. Like T-Mac leaves. He got paid though. He went for the money.

A land though. Couldn't he have gotten paid in Toronto though? They ain't want to pay him. That's a mistake. Yeah. That's a pretty good what if. They made a lot of mistakes. They should never grab rid of Butch.

Yeah. Should never hire Lenny Wilkins. I mean, this coach, he didn't do nothing. He was on vacation. Yeah, they caught him at the wrong time of his coaching career they believed you know yeah some coach when you've been like say oh he won a thousand and lost a thousand okay 50 percent okay where you know but he didn't he didn't move neither for it was you know we had a bad he had a veteran team and he got lazy and yeah i didn't want in either. He had a veteran team. And he got lazy.

And I didn't want to let that laziness come in while I was there. And I spoke up. Yeah. So then he traded me. But Doug traded me in Chicago because I'm always for my teammates, no matter what they say about me or whatever. As anybody I play with, a doorman, a schoolteacher, anybody, I'm for the person who are doing it right.

Did Doug trade you? I worked with Doug for aorman, a school teacher, anybody, only for the person who was doing it right. Did Doug trade you? I worked with Doug for a year. Doug's a great guy, was he crying when he traded you? Oh, he's a cry baby. He's a cry baby anyway. He was sobbing, I don't wanna do this. He's such an emotional guy, I love Doug Collins. He always crying, but he's sneaky though.

But uh-oh. I didn't know that side of him. Oh yeah, like a fly, fly you know you close the door and it's still in there uh but it's a lot of fun to leave you know like you say that you know doug whatever but playing with coaches and then i was coaching oh man it could be i'm gonna write a book one day just like the transition my basketball then i was coaching back you know what i was like if you if you read a book i want to help you i do you got

to do a lot of good stuff i'm telling you are you gonna give the a-list stuff or like the b-plus list stuff my d-plus is good okay i want to know the story once and for all because i've heard this i've heard many versions of this. The lockout's happening. Yeah. You guys are sitting out. Everyone's just throwing away money. It's dragging on.

It's dragging on. It's dragging on. And then there's some big come to Jesus meeting with a lot of the veterans and the best players that the story I heard was that it ended up with you smacking Barkley. True story. That's a true story. True story. So what happens? What leads to the point where you hit Barkley?

Remember the game they had in Atlanta City? They had like a little workout. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So Barkley had said something. I said, Barkley always saying something. I said, next time I hear him say anything about anybody who's named Charles, I'm going to smack him.

So the lockout came, and he was there. So you're in a big room. Yeah, a big room. There's like how many people? Players, this and that. How many people? At least 100-something players. And, you know, it was more 100-something players there,

but 100-something players there in that little room. And I seen him, and I was just like, I said, I told Chris Meehl, I told Derek Colvin, I said, I'm gonna go smack him, because I told him when I see him, I'm gonna smack him. He said, hey, we here. So you went over and you smacked him? I went over to him, and I said, hey,

what I tell you about talking, saying something about my name? You know, talking, you know, about Charles. I don't know who he was talking about, but I heard Charles. And I just smacked him. What did he do? Nothing. I still don't understand what he did to make you mad.

He was just talking. He said my name, but he said something else, too. But he said something. My name was in the sentence he said. So, I mean, he just, you know, I mean, he's got, like I said, he's a good player, but the guy outside doing what he did was great. He just, he just. What happens when you see him now?

Do you get along or it's not great? I mean, it's like the weather, according to how I feel. Okay. According to how you feel. But he got, you know, like I said, he got to always, if I'm around, you know. I'm so glad you like me. Huh? I'm so glad you like me.

I'm so glad I'm on Oak's good side. But see, the whole start, we used to hang out with me, him, Mike, a few times a day. I was going to ask about that. He smacked me in the game, like, play snack. I don't know, play with me. No. No, I'm on the court. I'm for real anyway.

So you already got more talent than me. So don't do that. Because I don't know if you're trying to get it you know think well i got it now now you cared more about your on the court reputation as much as anybody these last 30 years of like we're not i'm not messing around now you're not doing that again and that's it well i think i mean the number one, I hate the rules, the flagrant foul. And I hate that when an official come and talk to you, and like I think one time with Karl Malone and someone else, as soon as I said something, threw me out of the game.

It's just like I didn't have the superstar as them. They get the benefit of the doubt. They get the benefit of the doubt with being a superstar, the benefit of the doubt getting the call. So I don't mind some things I can't control, but just don't disrespect me. Do you think Jordan buttered up Barkley, knowing that Barkley was his biggest rival when Barkley went to Phoenix

and made friends with him in the Olympics and kind of kept him close because it was his rival? Or you think they were real friends? They was friends. You don't think that was part of it because i don't think i think barkley just like he just talked too much and and jordan you know then he's saying don't tip and don't do that you know some things you don't say if you're a friend okay but then he started you know he just he wore himself out you know some people wear their own stuff out and he does what

he do on tv you know he he do stuff on tv. I mean, I can't really watch the show. I mean, because they really ain't really telling people about basketball. They trying to, it's like a reality show to me. Yeah. So they be doing stunts. Comedy show. Still telling people what's really, what's wrong with the basketball game. And why this team, this and why that.

You know, so, but I don't know. Did you cross paths with Shaq? Man, Shaq had a little run in. Did you? Yeah. A run in during the game? I don't remember that. you cross paths with Shaq? Man, Shaq had a little run in. Did you? Yeah. A run in during the game? I don't remember that. With the Brad Miller thing.

Oh, yeah. Near the end of your career. Yeah. So I had to go at him. You defended Brad Miller. That's my teammate. Yeah, that's on YouTube. I always got my teammates.

No matter who. It could be Hulk Hogan. Even on the other side, we got to see you. Shag, okay. We had to talk about a couple things, but I had to let him know. I'm for real. Jordan, true or false, slept less than three hours a day when he played? How many hours of sleep did he need?

Three and a half? The same with me. Sometimes just going all the way through? We didn't sleep a lot. I still don't sleep maybe three. I've heard stories about him playing 36 hours of golf before finals games and all that stuff. That's all. Well, see, when I was there, he wasn't really playing a lot of golf.

He picked it up late in his, you know. He never dragged you into the golf oh i played we played many times many trips and go out the country play this and that no i play a lot with him but he's the a golfer i would used to be a b i'm probably a c now yeah you know you get older you go the other way in a lot of ways you lose a lot of things they say but my god i don't mind is my golf game but you know so who's the crew it seems like it used to be it's ahmad's in there right lamar is he's the he's the steering wheel of the car he's definitely there ahmad in and out but he's there you know you can make a case of Mod's the coolest American of the last 40 years.

All the relationships he has that he can float into. He can float into any room and completely fit in no matter what that room is. He got some swag. I mean, hey, you got to play football, hang out with basketball players. But no, they cool. I think that's why Michael moved to Florida because the mob was there first

because he had a condo and then we was just going out there and play golf with him hang out then some land came available in Jupiter, Florida

and I guess Mike said hey he bought it you know it's about three or four acres but it cost a lot but

then eight, ten years later he built on it when does tiger start hanging out with you guys was that overrated uh no he's hanging out but tiger was quiet well he's always around we used to go down and play golf with him in lando hang out this and that go to uh blue martini you know just get the vip smoke cigars and tigers hang out go to vegas hang out um but just kind of would be in the background yeah he was you know just background you know never seen him out with him you know

you know he choking and he's smoking a cigar but he was just quiet by himself though like we go to lando he'd be by himself in vegas he always had a couple of people with him but besides that he was you know he's a fun guy because he liked to play basketball, you know, stuff like that. Any other athletes? Any other? One sap sometime. Oh, no. Yeah.

Richard Dent was lingering, right? He was in the crew. Richard Dent. Oh, well, that's our first years in Congo. Yeah. 85. Mike was 84 when he won the Super Bowl. So we was always at Mike's house playing ping pong, playing, you know, just having fun.

So yeah, Richard Dent. Not like he used to, though. Yeah. George, the limo guy. George, you know, George was the guy with the first one game of ride in the limo. So he's been friends ever since then, since 84 and a half. Anyone from Nike? Is there a dude thatell white yeah fred

whitfield oh yeah fred whitfield yeah so he was but he was jordan's buddy right as a kid school together yeah yeah so it's like a crew of like anywhere from six to twelve people at all times when we went to his bachelor party for his wedding this was only 10 of us 10. for whose bachelor party? Well, we went to, we took Mike to- For when he got married the second time? Yeah, about 45 years ago. So it's 10 people in the bachelor party.

And where do you go for the bachelor party? We went to the DR. We got a condo, a house, we played golf. We get up, we had a chef, but I go in and cook breakfast with him you know and then so you assist the chef yeah I'm probably bring a lot to the table for a crew oh yeah you could cook you can protect people you're funny yeah you don't sleep no sleep you're like a high first-round pick. Well basically when we used to go out and stuff I never like you know people like never like

drank another club you know like sometime guys, with Mike, I go back to about DR, but sometime with guys with Mike, they just get into all. And he just having fun. No, the night, what we gonna do? We do the house. So just trying to make sure everybody's comfortable because you don't know who might walk up on you,

who got a camera. I know I took a lot of cameras. Yeah. He's like, I'm taking that. Take it out. know i took a lot of cameras yeah you think i'm taking that take it out but we didn't do a lot of that but uh i'd give the camera back though but uh we just went over there had a house play golf four days you know so what needs to be in the location you need a golf course in your casino no you don't necessarily into the casino. More golf course and privacy. Privacy.

Yeah. Like when he would go to Bahamas, we'd just go to Bahamas and leave about five, you know, when the kids growing up, we'd go there in the summertime,

wintertime. He had his golf tournament on, that was real nice. And sometimes you would go to like, like the Myrtle Beach type places too,

right? You go to Mexico. We went to Mexico one year and we were playing, where we staying at? One and only, anyway. So we was there, I think Secretary of State was there. Khalida's right? Yeah.

She was there. Condoleezza Rice. Condoleezza Rice. Yeah, yeah. And we was there. So like one morning we was getting up and going so we playing they got what's the name in the woods? Called the clientele. Cartel.

Oh, the cartel, yeah. So they had Secret Service in the woods everywhere. They had a fighter ship right there. We thought, oh, son, we got called up in a crossfire. You see guys in the woods. We seen about 20 guys in the woods with AKs, but we didn't know she was there until late on. They was there to protect her.

Oh, so you thought your lives were in danger? We thought, yes. Jesus. Yeah, it was, yeah. But we used to go over there like with some guys, we'd make it like every year around February, you know, with the weather changing. And...

So his life, cause there was this documentary that they shot, like 20, like his last bull season, that I is going to be part of this giant big project but one of the things that struck me because i saw like eight nine years ago because when i was working for us pain we're trying to buy it like just how like lonely his life was because he couldn't go anywhere you know he's going from city to city he's just in a suite and he's got his three buddies and they're playing cards and it's like what's he gonna do he's not gonna go to the. He's just in a suite and he's got his three buddies and they're playing cards. And it's like, what's he going to do? He's not going to go to the movies.

He's not going to a restaurant. He'd go to a restaurant. But he'd have to go in the back room. He'd have to arrange it ahead of time. Yeah. But he's the only celebrity I know that drives his own stuff. He drives his stuff no matter where he goes. He's going to drive it.

Unless he goes somewhere like we fly out of town. He's coming on a plane. He ain't going to rent a car. Right. But in the States, he gonna drive, don't matter where he goes. He's gonna drive his own car. Drive his own car.

So basically you don't need a chauffeur and you don't need a cook when you guys go away. No. He can drive, you can cook everything. We don't need security. You need somebody to buy the groceries. I go to the grocery store and get it. You need somebody to rent the car.

No, we have a SUV, transportation service. Ah, so you're good to go. You're ready to go anywhere. He on point. Whatever he do, it's on point. It ain't no slipping. Never late,

on point. If he say 8 o'clock, be there a quarter to 10. If only Vince Carter had been like that, his whole career would have been different. Like we used to get moms in D.C.

It's his 40th birthday party, so we got snowed in. It was like, everybody, you know, Magic White, Paulette, I mean, Denzel White, I mean, Donald Trump. Donald Trump.

Beyonce, AJ. I mean, everybody, who is who, Gayle. I mean, just like, so we had this 40th birthday party in the Ritz-Carlton. Yeah. So, because he was playing for Washington. And so we got snowed in. And Trump was the only one that got out. Bob Johnson, that's so, MJ said, what we gonna do?

I said, we gotta go to practice and then I'll cook. He said, okay. So we get up, you know, we snowed after the party, couldn't nobody leave. So we get up and say, oh man, it's 7 30. We said, damn, I don't think nobody gonna be there. No, we gotta go. Cause we know we got to show them that we did real best. I said, you right about that't think nobody's going to be there. He said, no, we got to go because we know. We got to show them that we did real

vets. I said, you're right about that. So we get to practice about 8, 15. It wasn't like 20 minutes, but we stayed on 22nd and M. So we drove and we used the snow because it was in Chicago. Man, we get there, wait, wait. They said they canceled practice. I said, canceled

practice? Hey, but, you know, it was like 300, but it snowed all day later on. So he said, okay, then, let's go back. You go to the grocery store. I'm going to set up the house and get everything ready. You know, the wives and everything is still in town. I said, all right. So started calling people around 12, 1 o'clock.

You know, I cooked a little brunch. Then later on, about 5 or 6, I took, you know, the big meal. He said, all right. Tell the guys, get some cars, and I'll stop at the liquor store, and we just had a ball for two days. We got stoned in for two days. We had a ball.

That was the one for the ages. Unbelievable. Yeah. And I cook, like, enough for, like, 45 people each day. So what's the secret to, you still look really healthy, but you don't sleep and you've been, had a extremely fun life. So I'm guessing like no cigarettes?

No cigarette, I smoke cigars more now. Cigars? What do you drink and like just? Red wine a lot. Red wine? Men around here, we love red wine. I mean, red wine, just eat good. And I mean

no junk food oh I love junk food I eat ice cream every other night so you're just a freak basically you don't need to sleep you can eat whatever you want

I work out four days a week but I know how to work out it ain't like you know go to the gym somebody needs somebody to push me no I know I'm gonna do

if I go for an hour five minutes four days I'm gonna do at least 45 minutes of cardio I don't need the weights and stuff I just do some

you know circle workout but basically I need the cardio because i'm eating you know wings and you know i eat a lot though do you still have the reputation of being the toughest guy in the nba even though you haven't been in the nba in like 15 years come out sometime but why hasn't somebody just overpaid you to be their assistant coach and have you on the bench? Well. You must've gotten that opportunity, right? Yeah, I mean, it's different though. They don't want you to really say nothing no more.

Yeah. They want you just there. I can't be that. I can't cheat the game because I was playing with guys. I was teaching guys when I played and someone see me all just, you know, biting my finger like some of these coaches do and they say like, oh, like oh man he's a fraud I gotta be a fraud

you don't wanna be that I went back for these guys I showed them how to do it the right way so they can do it but I can't well you know how

Hakeem has those big men camps when he teaches the guys the low post moves maybe you have like tough guy camps where you teach like some of these

they don't want toughness no you just teach them how to stand up for yourself on the basketball court I do some stuff with certain guys like one on one

yeah they'll call me or talk to me about some stuff or I just try to tell them you know just do what your skill level you know

do what you can do for your skills don't try to you're not a three point shooter I know everybody want to shoot three stretch the floor no just get good

at what you do and just do it consistent like Sean Livingston. I mean, I can't never get his name out of my mouth because he plays his game every night. He don't try to shoot three like KD. He shoots his 14-footer. He's like, that's my spot right there. And he peer with that. Yeah. It's just, I don't know.

I mean, I love the game of basketball, but like now when I watch, I can't really watch a whole game unless I'm at a game. I can't sit in the room and watch like from tip balls to no well i have to ask you about the msg thing yeah that became a big deal yeah so you can't go back i'm banned again i've been banned twice you've been banned twice what was the first time i don't remember what you did well when it first happened they banned me okay anyway we went to court this summer you know they banned me again for part of the punishment on his side. But we still fight in court right now.

We just wrote my lawyer, and they wrote a dismissal, so we answered to the dismissal. So the judge, hopefully next month, make a decision. I mean, you realize I think every single Knick fan is on your side on this one. They're not very fond of the owner in the last two decades. I really appreciate the young players for standing up, some of the veterans. Too many guys on my team said nothing at all. But it was just one of them things happening.

It shouldn't have happened. The guy, you know, I didn't do nothing. The tape came out two weeks ago. It showed. I was in my seat the whole time. Were you proud of yourself that you didn't just start punching people I was proud of myself

I swear to God you definitely like you definitely held it in a little bit I know I know myself like we're gonna talk about

a couple incidents I know I don't know what happened made me just want to just be calm they thought I was over the top I said they ain't know

what near over the top yeah you were like two out of ten four or five guys in the face like I had two incidents in Vegas I don, I ain't no one near over the top. Yeah, you were like two out of ten. I could have hit about four or five guys in the face. Like, I had two incidents in Vegas. I don't know if you ever heard about them. One time,

I got jumped at the pool by seven guys. What? Seven guys. Any reason? About five years ago. Seven guys. I fought,

I knocked three, four of them down and the other three, I don't know where they went. The other three, so it was like, it was like John Wick. It's a true story.

I was at the pool. I mean. Seven guys jump you. You knock the first three down. The other three scatter. True story. Then on the way to my room, they jumped me in the elevator. They jumped me.

Seven more came. What? True story. They broke my wrist. They put me in the holding block downstairs. It was crazy. What year are we talking here? About six, seven years ago.

And you have no idea why they jumped you? They said, I said something to them. And I was, I was outside. Yeah. And they was closing. I was getting somebody else back in.

And the guy was with, like my casino host, told me, go ahead, go ahead. And the guy said, well, like my casino host, told me, go ahead, go ahead. And the guy said, well, you can't go. I said, the guy just told me, and he tried to touch me, and I moved back. I said, do not touch me.

When you touch me, I'm going to touch you back. Right. And then they started, I guess, some kind of signal they got. They started coming around and coming around. So the crazy thing about it was it was a guy snapping pictures. So as I was doing all that, I heard the camera go off. So I took the camera and threw it in the pool.

This on tape. This on tape. True story. So you had two Vegas incidents? That was one. What was the other one? That was another time in I was in Bellagio. That was one. What was the other one? That was another time in, what was it?

Bellagio. Yeah. Some of Floyd Mayweather people. His little nephew was talking flack to me. Oh, he didn't like that. And he's like, yeah, I'm going to be in the league. I'm going to go dunk on somebody. I'm like, I'm not even in the league no more.

Okay, go do it. Yeah, yeah, y'all think y'all tough. So he pushed the button and got in with security they some kind of way security tried to break us up

and they grabbed me me and my stepbrother we was in there just like it was just so punches or no punches oh yeah it was about 15 of them

we just going at it you versus Mayweather's posse no no the posse was you know they did when we was like they they broke it up.

But the security tried to get rough with me. Oh, you didn't like that. So me and my brother, we had like, it was four of us then, but it was about 15 of them. It was all about warfare. Jeez. Do people, do they know, do people try to mess with you with these things or they stay away? They see you like, there's Oakley. I just have, me and Mason

used to have a little problem in New York. We ain't got a lot of little bangs in New York, me and Mason. Hey, club guys. I was going to ask you

about Mason. You know, like bouncers, one night tabbing the green. We had this, you know, me and Mason went at it.

Because we would always end up in the same place a few times. Was Mason, like you found your soulmate when Mason joined the team? I know I ain I mean, I know he ain't running. And he's from New York, so I felt comfortable with him. You know, it's like a captain co-pilot.

We was right there together. Was he crazier than the stories about him? Just as crazy or less crazy? I can say he was Mase. He was crazy, He was crazy. But my thing is he wants right. He like me almost. He want things to be right.

Yeah. Treat people right. And he see I might let it you know go a little he ain't gonna let it go an inch. You know

he's he's be on Pat Riley. He's called me with Pat Riley maybe every three days. I want to talk to you. They was like Pat Riley loving but I three days. I want to talk to you. Going to his office. They was like, Pat Riley loving.

But I'm saying, but he brought Mace to the Knicks from the D League. Yeah. Overseas. And John, too. So, but Mace. And both of those guys had scrap to get every single hit that they get. But Mace tough. Mace fun.

I like playing with Mace. You never got in a fight with Mace, did you? We used to get into it in practice all the time. Like actual fights? I mean, almost like fights, yeah. I don't know who's favored in that. Huh? That's probably the only one who's on your level, right?

You know about our practice. It's no out of bounds in our practice. So the ball go there. You know how some people just stop, go across the line? No, who will get the ball? Oh, you had to go out of bounds to fight for the ball? I'm just saying, if the ball is on the floor, it's still alive. Yeah.

Even though it's out of bounds, it's still alive. So Riley would do that to get you guys all. We used to play like that a lot. Probably wasn't great for the longevity of your career, I'm guessing. I ain't have no problem with it. Man, that's crazy. It makes getting get in shape. Like watching the Cavs play, they need that energy, that effort.

Yeah. See, that makes you go further. So it teaches them. Yeah. Especially if a guy on the edge trying to make the team, and you can show a lot of it, you can make it. One of the good fights, you weren't in this one, I don't think, or maybe you cleaned it up, was the Greg Anthony, Doc Rivers one in

Phoenix. Yeah, that was a battle. Derek Hopper was a good one. Doc Rivers was a tough dude. He was in some fights. Yeah. Doc would fight. He'd say if he was in the stand in New York, he would have came and helped me. I said, well, you was on the court. What's the difference? We're not by the whole of you.

So Mace got traded and then it completely fell apart with the next team you got traded Milwaukee right Milwaukee

and that couldn't have gone worse and then goes to Charlotte and kind of found himself again for a couple more years Miami too

with Pat Riley I don't know Pat Riley was there but he went to Miami for a couple years too did you cross pass with LJ or no

in the Knicks LJ got into in the Knicks? Me and LJ got into it one time. We was slap box. We was slap, you know. When you're on different teams? No, we was on the same team. Oh, you had to fight in practice?

Well, we went to fight. LJ was tough, right? Yeah, he was tough, yeah. We just, you know, he thought he could box. I thought I could box. So it was some fun. You know, we know we wouldn't like fight and fight, you know, we both have smacked one another,

you know, we just, you know, going at it. And then were you there when Sprewell showed up or no? You were gone by then. I ain't messing with Sprewell. Oh,

you weren't messing with Sprewell. That's the one guy you won't go. You won't mess with. Who? Sprewell. I will. Oh, okay.

So I see him in the airport the next day that happened in New York remember he came to the Sunday game oh yeah yeah yeah so I see him in the airport on that Monday cause I stayed and tried to get

you know have a meet with the commission and everything about what happened this and that like why y'all call me he didn't even it didn't happen

anyway so I'm in the airport Sprewell I get through customs you know putting my belt in my shoes here comes Sprewell and ladies don't customs, putting my belt and my shoes back on, here comes Sprewell.

And ladies, don't you know him? I said, who? I said, that girl? Tell him I'm Sprewell. Yeah, that's why I called him that, that girl. What'd he say to that? He ain't come back on my way. I didn't realize you had beef with him.

I got beef with Bernard King too now. No. I seen him last year, John. Oh no, that hurts my feelings. I love Bernard King. I used to love him too. What happened, he defended the Knicks? I thought he had the tiger.

I think he had a surgeon took it out. Somebody took his heart. What, he defended the Knicks? Well, not just that. Remember when they took his, when he tweeted something about Carmel Anthony? Yeah. And he talking about his cousin did it.

And then they told him he had turned his account off because you know, you thought it'd be a Nick, this, dah, dah, dah, this and that. So when the incident happened, he came to the game that Sunday too. But he was trying to hide to the side. It was LJ and Bernard King, you know, so. So you're out on LJ too.

This is getting a long list by guys you're out on. LJ came front, is getting a long list by guys you're out on. LJ came front. We had a long talk. I mean, LJ, he tried to say, well, you know, I'm not coming to that game, this and that, because that's my man, Oak, and I hate to get in the middle of this. I was like, you know, do what you got to do.

You know, because I go to New York, always call LJ John or whoever heard. But anyway, get back to Bernard. So I'm like, man, I just like love Bernard. So I like, man, I just like love Bernard. I just hear the war story about him when he was in Tennessee, how he came out of Brooklyn.

When he was like, you know, they call them brown eyes. That's another story too, but brown eyes. But anyway, so I seen the John Stocks thing last year come on the foundation and I see him.

We didn't talk. He come in late. I see him. I said, come here. I want to talk to you. He said, let's talk out here. I said, I don't care what we talk, let's talk right now. I said, that was effed up what you did that Sunday. You go sit beside that man, you see what happened? Yeah.

And he goes like, well, I talked to him and I said, oh man, go tell the bird outside who's trying to eat. I'm not trying to eat, I'm trying to get in there and let you know you was wrong for doing that. Because I looked up to you. He said, no, I told him he was wrong. I said, okay, well, it's like talking to a blind man. Tell him to go down the block and make a left. You think he can find himself?

Oh, I gave it to him. True story. I don't care if he hear it or not. If you and Bernard got in a fight, I'd be traumatized for about a year after that. He's my favorite non-Nicah's kid. Yeah, that's a bummer. And this man made you turn off your Twitter account? Come on, man. Oh, he

want to do something? Tell him to put your jersey up in the wrap. You're in the Hall of Fame. He should be in the wrap. Yeah, no, man. He retired. And you're going, really? He took on the 84 Celts by himself to seven games. I have no more respect for him. What about Pippen these days?

Pippen's been tight. We've always been tight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How about Horace Grant? In Horace, we were just together in Toronto, Horace. Horace, we used to be the clique back in the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had that in Chicago. This is what it was.

Me and Mike Brown against everybody else on the team. So when we'd check in the hotel, we used to fight every day. We'd check in the hotel, we used to fight every day when we check in. Me and Mike Brown against Horace, Sadell, all them guys. I mean, anybody besides me and Mike Brown. We catch you out, we beating you up.

What was it? Sadell was a legend. I thought he was out more than anybody that decade, wasn't he? No, he was hanging out? No, I thought Sadell was out. No, no, I'm saying, but we used to always, we take on everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we catch them out. I forgot Sadell was on that team though. We get them, we be hiding behind, you know, like go to Braffler early, wait for them to come down. Sadell, he nailed- Act like room service, breaking some tray. Sadell nailed Danny Ainge once in a game. He smacked him and Danny Ainge wobbled. He was wob some trade. So Dale nailed Danny Ainge once in a game.

He smacked him and Danny Ainge like wobbled. He was like wobbling around. He was like a guy on queer street for a second. Yeah, Danny Ainge would, he got in a few fights. Tree Rollins bit him. Yeah, he cheap shot. So I didn't realize, cause Pippen sometimes he says little stuff about Jordan,

about, which I don't understand the motivations with that. Because they had such a great relationship. Yeah. I mean, like Birdie McHale. Imagine Kareem. Yeah. There's always that underlying thing. Shaq and Kobe.

You know, it's great players. Like, you know. I mean. Curry Durant. I've never been in a position to be a great player, so I wouldn't know. You were one of the great role players, though. Yeah. You were overqualified.

I set my role. I set my role. I played every night my role. But everybody likes it. You should have shot more. But it's what it is. I'm just glad I got a chance to play NBA, play with guys, and just feel out myself and see how the league is really.

Well, the 90s, you had to bulk up more because it was so much more physical. Now I think you'd probably be lighter weight, you'd be stretched out more, you'd be like a stretch four. I can still be a stretch four. I mean, it's like Karl Malone. I mean, how he used to fire up in his era is just because they don't pose no more.

Yeah. Him and Stockton pick and roll. He never was like a ball handler. Yeah. He never, you know. So, I had a lot of fun with guys. Guys just show their true colors and I just let them know. It is what it is.

Charles Oakley, this was amazing. I had a good time. Thanks for coming on. It took a long time. It really did. It was worth it though. Hey, it's sunny in Cleveland, so it was a good day. It was worth it.

Now I have to make sure nephew Kyle in there didn't accidentally delete the audio or something. This is great. There's like 10 monster stories in this podcast. Really? It was good. That was good. I definitely enjoyed watching you from afar. You would have been a good Celtic.

Yeah. We had a guy like you. No. I get a lot of Boston fans telling me, you know, that's what I get now a lot. Like, we love the way you play. You know, you play hard, this and that. You dive. You get your bite up.

So I get a lot of that from people because they said, you know, you didn't short the game. You know? When I was growing up, because my dad was taking me in the 70s because we had season tickets in like 1974. And we had Paul Silas. They traded for him, I think, like 72. And he was like kind of the, that generation's version of you. Just this awesome guy.

Didn't need the ball. I got a new Paul Silas story. Oh, did you play for him? He was assistant coach in New York. Yeah. So he was talking shit one day in practice. Uh-oh. How you motherfucking,

I like who you talking to? He said, I'm talking to you. We went at it right there. Boy, we went at it. He was a tough dude, Paul Salas. I was tough with that. He was you in the seventies. Yeah, okay.

Well, I'm here, here. Nah, we had, it was crazy though. So you won that one, 10-9 round? Oh, we won, no, we just, they broke it up. So you find an assistant coach on your own team? No, he was just talking shit. Y'all soft, soft, soft. You know, he went off and I was like, who you talking to?

Ain't nothing soft about me. You motherfucker. I seen you said that. We went there. That's it. I mean, we had fun. That's hilarious. He like Darren Day in Chicago. What's his name?

He's with Notre Dame. Darren Day? Yeah, he fucked me up with one day in practice. The next play. That was it? Wasn't no more practice. That day. Oh, it's a lot of stories.

Charles Oakley, thank you. I'm saving stuff so we can do more of this. Oh, I told you, I got enough about five books. All right, thanks to Charles Oakley. Thanks to the podcast format. I don't know how long it's been around, but it allowed us to do something like that. And I just feel lucky. I think we all should. Thanks to Gillette. They offer a variety of shaving products for every guy, regardless of his personal style, skin needs or budget, whether you want three blades or five, the Gillette three and Gillette five razors have you covered all under $10. Higher performance at a low price. Get Gillette performance delivered to your door.

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That is Simply Safe with two I's. Thanks to theringer.com. Don't forget to check out the new episode of NBA Desktop coming tomorrow on our Twitter account, at Ringer. Don't forget to check out all of our great content, including Jonathan Charks on LeBron, possibly where he might go and whether Boston might actually be the best fit. Oh my God, my ears are bleeding. I can't believe it. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to check out ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to everybody in Cleveland. The food's been really good. I've really had a good time

in Cleveland. It reminds me of Indiana.. I've really had a good time in Cleveland. It reminds me of Indiana. It's compact. You can walk around everywhere. Did not enjoy the casino and I'll never go back. But other than that, I really like Cleveland. We'll be back. Not sure when.

We'll see how the series goes. If the series keeps going, you might hear from us in Oakland before game five. If the series does not keep going, you'll hear from us in Oakland before game five. If the series does not keep going, you'll hear from us on Monday morning. As always, that's the BS podcast. Talk to you soon. I don't have feelings within.

On the wayside, I'm a person never lost. I don't have feelings within.