The Bill Simmons Podcast - Coach K's Secrets, Saving College Hoops, and the Pre-LeBron Generation, With Jay Williams | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 392)

Episode Date: July 20, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by college basketball analyst Jay Williams to discuss his time in the NBA, how we evaluate college players, his 2001 NCAA national championship team, fixing college basketball, playing for Coach K, the pre-LeBron generation of NBA players, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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going to mess around and see what happens. So check that out. Twitch.tv slash TheRinger. I've been practicing. I've had a couple kills in games. I've gotten to, in the Battle Royal, I've gotten to second a couple times and third. I have a pretty unique strategy that you're going to enjoy when you watch it, which is basically I try to avoid conflict at all times and snipe people. I can shoot from far away, but I'm terrible up close

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And that's it. Coming up, we're talking to Jay Williams. He was in on Thursday afternoon. Actually, before we do that, I should mention Carmelo Anthony got traded right as I'm doing the ads he's going to Atlanta OKC got Dennis Schroeder back

I continue to like kind of the direction the Western Conference has gone into for OKC you could make the case getting rid of Carmelo who really killed them last year and was just not good for them in really any way.

And you give his minutes to Jeremy Grant and a couple other people. And then on top of that, if they keep Schroeder, who I can't imagine how he's going to mesh with Westbrook. Maybe they're taking him for trade bait or something. But if they keep him and they can figure out how to use him as an asset and Westbrook can take his hand off the steering wheel a little bit, it's a really kind of interesting team. I'm looking at them Western Conference odds right now.

40-1 in the Western Conference. 40-1, Nep Western Conference. 40 to one, nephew Kyle. I bet. All you need is like two Warriors injuries. You need the Rockets to get old.

You need LeBron and the Lakers to be a year away. You need the Spurs to kind of be a notch below. That's not inconceivable. It would have,

it would have to involve Westbrook changing the way he plays and getting more people involved and figuring out some sort of balance between being Teen Wolf Westbrook and being point guard Westbrook. If he's Teen Wolf Westbrook like he was in the playoffs last year, then they have no chance no matter who's on the team. But if he's good teammate, point guard, get everyone else involved and take over the last four minutes Westbrook. A little more interesting. Anyway, I thought that was a really fascinating trade. The NBA, every time you think it's dead, something else happens. We were complaining this week that this was going to be the first boring NBA week of the year. And then the Kawhi trade starts happening in the middle of the night on Tuesday. And now Carmelo gets traded and the West is starting to take shape. Who knows what's next?

Anyway, we're talking to Jay Williams right now. First, Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this Thursday afternoon. Jay Williams in the office with me. We've never done one of these somehow. This is the first time I've actually had a thorough conversation with you. I just want you to know that. And I've been a big fan of yours for a while. We've been at events together.

You know why I've been a big fan of yours? Because when I We've been at events together. You know why I've been a big fan of yours? Because when I got drafted, you said that Houston made a colossal mistake and that I was going to be the transcendent thing in the draft. And it's funny, as a player, you listen to that kind of stuff. And I was like, that's what Bill Simmons, yeah, you're damn right I'm going to be. Granted, it didn't work out for me because of a mistake, but it's all good. I'm here today. But you got injured.

I did. mistake but it's all good i'm here today well you got injured i did my i was dubious at yow because of the history of super tall guys staying healthy for long periods of time you don't usually run into seven six yeah just like it was like can he play 16 years how long does he last whereas where the league was going it just seemed like to have an explosive guard who could create seem like a safer bet i've that one i don't i don't feel like that's a loss for me because you had an injury that was like a fluke injury. But I had some bad ones. Like what?

I had some really good ones. I've had big swings. Chris Paul year, I went crazy. Okay. I was like, Chris Paul, what's going on? He's the best part of the draft's going forth. I don't understand this. Marvin Williams

was the sixth man at UNC he went ahead of him that one was big Curry I went nuts that year when Curry fell to seven Hashim Thabit

but then I had some other ones like I have this whole thing about Emeka Okafor over Dwight Howard oh wow I was really like

confident about that one that didn't work so but you know you've done the draft. These guys show up, you know. I mean, I had one with D'Angelo Russell, I mean, but you can make a case. I liked him too. Yeah.

Well, I didn't like him as much. Oh, you didn't like him, so that's a win for you. I guess in a way, but I mean It's still early. Yeah, it's very early. I mean, I thought Chris Dunn was going to be a better prospect than just him going to the Tibbs system and playing for Tibbs and hearing stories from Carl Anthony Towns about how Tibbs practices

and how it's so intense all the time. And now seeing him in Chicago, I just don't, I don't know. So I guess it's still to be terming, you know? I feel like as the years have gone on, I've learned kind of things not to do from experience by being wrong on things. One of them is just to, to judge anyone 18 and under for the most part, it's just a crap shoot.

You just don't know. They come into the league. You don't know how mature they are. They don't know what the work ethic is. Like I did the draft when Giannis was in and it's like, we thought it was actually right around where he should have gone. We liked him. We didn't know he was going to go three inches.

We didn't know that now that he was being fed regularly and with trainers and shit like that, like good things were going to happen to him. How do you predict that? You don't, I mean, here's my thing. When is it fair game for kids? Like, so as soon as you go into draft night, is that when you're allowed to be critical and be honest, I can have fun. Like, cause if you're critical of a kid in college, like everybody gets extremely sensitive. Yes, but we're only looking at them through the pro prism. Like, so when I look at a kid now that's Zion Williamson, I don't look at him and say, this is how he's going to be. I look, this is how he's going to project as a pro. Here are the things he needs to work on. Here are issues happening off the court that I worry about

or love life that you worry about how things translate. Yeah. I remember doing the draft with Jalen and Jalen in the green room for the draft or like in our, what's the pre-pro meeting was better than Jalen on TV for the draft because he knew what it was like to be drafted. And he didn't want to criticize anybody basically because he knew this was the biggest moment of their life. And they're walking up there and he's like, well, he can't shoot. Like he just wasn't going to do that, which is why you need an asshole like me to be like,

I don't know about this pick. Jalen would dance around. Like you can kind of tell who he didn't like and who he liked, but he was always careful because he understood that moment. And I think to me, that's one of the main reasons you have players in analyst positions because they get it. They know what it's like to be drafted.

They know what it's like to be in the last two minutes of a playoff game when the crowds are rooting against you. And that's something I can never get. I can just kind of glean. Well, I feel like you can do that. And it was the biggest moment of my life. But also I was a realist. Like there's no perfect player out there. Everybody has something that they need to work on.

I think it just depends on the way you say it. But at the time, I'm a realist. Like there's no perfect player out there. Everybody has something that they need to work on. I think it just depends on the way you say it. But at the time, I'm a fan too. So I sit back at home and I yell at the TV. I mean, it's funny that it shocks other people that you talk like a fan. Because when you stop playing ball, you are essentially, that's all you are. You're a fan.

Yeah. But you, you know. Yeah, I'm with you. You win some big games at Duke. And I think the one thing that shocked me when I worked with Jalen was how famous he was, which you don't really understand, but like those final fours that he was in.

Oh, he was in the 90s. And he was the leader of a movement, the whole thing, and people naming their kids after him. But, you know, those UNC Michigan game, the timeout game, it was probably like 20 million watching. And even you were at the tail end of when college basketball was getting huge audiences like that. Now it feels like a little more cookie cutter. The teams change every year. It's hard to keep track. It's hard to keep track of the history. It's like, ah, what Kentucky team

was Anthony Davis on? Was he on the one with- It was crazy. It feels like high school basketball is bigger than college basketball now. Yeah. Just because you see all these kids that are coming up that are creating mixtapes, you know, have social media, people following them around. House of Highlights, doing the dunks. It's crazy. It's just next level. And now saying you go to college and there's this short window.

Who pays attention to college until after the Super Bowl? Yeah. I mean, that's the point. So you're- Well, you have to because you're paid for it. Obviously. We have Mark Titus and Tay Frazier. They know what's going on year round.

But I think there's way more casual college basketball fans though. I consider myself one of them. I used to be all in on college basketball. No, who's your team? Boston College got it? No, I never really, I was always like Big East. And I liked BC, but then when I went to Holy Cross, I kind of dumped them. Wait, you went to Holy Cross? I did. So the first 20, first 18 years I was pro BC and then there was still kind of a semblance of a Holy Cross Boston College driver.

So I was like, screw those guys. My mom went to BC actually. Can I tell you some of the best parties in my life? I've been at Spring Weekend at Holy Cross. Oh yeah. That's like the only weekend we get good weather. Exactly. Why were you at Holy Cross? Because my best friends played there. Brian Wilson, he played there the whole time I was in college. So we always sneak out of Durham, drive up to Worcester and go party for the weekend. In the early 2000s we're talking? Early 2000s.

All the time. I think it was more fun in the early 2000s at Holy Cross than I was there during a different era. Such as? You know, a little less fun. 2000s, I think things heated up. All right. Our era was a little more serious.

Yeah. It was just more serious times in general. Yeah. When I was there, it was like the last time Holy Cross kind of had a chance to be Gonzaga. We made the NCAAs a couple of times. We could never get over the hump. And then the 2000s, they had a couple more games where it's like,

all we had to do was win one tournament game and it kind of flips. We could never win the game. One year, Dwayne Wade killed us. Yeah. That was the year that my boy Brian played against him. Yeah. Yeah.

And we should have won that game. And Dwayne Wade was like really good. And talking to my dad after like, wow, that Wade guy was good. Is he first round pick? Like we just have no idea. Yeah, I was like, oh yeah, he's a lottery pick.

But then it was, he became Dwayne Wade, but you could see the seeds of it. What was your big college game? Did you win the title that year? I don't remember. We won a title in 2001. Yeah, I think it was that year, right? Yeah.

Or was- Was that with the Alaskan Assassin or was that a different thing? No, that's Trajan. That was maybe one of the best teams of all time. That was right? Yeah. Or was, I think it was. Was that with the Alaskan Assassin or was that a different thing? No, that's, that's Trajan. That was, that was maybe one of the best teams of all time. That was 98?

99. 99. That was when they had Trajan Langdon, Elton Brand, Amir Corey-Mageddi when they came out of high school. Yeah.

I do. One year Corey. He was one of the first one and done guys. William Avery. So who was on your team? My team, we won it.

It was myself, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy, Chris Duhon. Oh, that was a good team. Yeah, I remember that team. Carlos Boozer. It was myself, Shane Battier, Mike Donlevy, Chris Duhon. Oh, that was a good team. Yeah, I remember that. Carlos Boozer. We had a good squad. This is the problem with college basketball though. I can't remember.

No, yeah, you need to download it like an Apple, like when Apple does the update of the iPad. I wish I could download. It's like, I got to download the 2001 season in my brain again. Exactly. I watched all those games. Well, those dudes had pretty good NBA careers. I mean, Boozer signed that crazy deal with Utah. What was his hair situation in college? We were all struggling. My hair is still struggling.

I don't let it grow in, Bill. He was struggling in college? Probably. I don't remember. You don't have too many chances to look at Boozer's hair in college because he's just a mammoth. He's such a big dude.

I remember Coach K, there's a story. It was great. You know, everything Booze did was a little bit slower in college. Yeah. And he used to wear, you know, the wave cap, even though he didn't have waves. And he used to wear like the big gold, you know,

necklaces and the big, like the big, like lush velour suits. And K used to say, you know, everything you do is slow. So one day we're all sitting there and K walks into the huddle, into our locker room, wearing one of Booze's velour suits and his gold chains and a wave cap and was like chewing gum very slow like a horse would chew hay. Doing a Booze impersonation? Yo, I'm Carlos Booza. You know, everything I do

is slow. I run down the court slow. I jog slow. And then he went on to say some other things that maybe he should have said that were slow. And then Booze, yeah. Then we had to go do charge drills and my head was almost knocked off. Oh, Jesus. Did he have the full thing of chest hair at that point? Oh, yeah. He was always, yeah. He brought that back to the NBA.

Caveman. We almost did a 30 for 30 about that one. On chest hair. On Boozer's chest hair. No, I'm kidding. It could have been a short maybe. He was the first NBA player with chest hair in like 20 years. He, you know, he brought it back.

It was like throwback chest hair. I mean, he was a legitimate caveman when he was 17 years old. Dunleavy, Dunleavy. He's a good example of a bad luck career. Cause I actually think his, his NBA career should have been better than it was. He kept getting injured at the wrong times, but he's kind of that, the three who could shoot threes kind of guy that everybody's looking for now, play make a little bit. And those guys get, I guess he got paid a lot of money too, but everybody's looking for those guys. He got paid a lot of money. Yeah. He got a big contract. Good for Dun Dun though, because

he came in college. He was six, six, man. All of a sudden when he left school after a junior year, he was six, 11. You're like, where the hell did that come from? Like how you just grow five inches in two and a half years? And then you get ball handling out of it too. Who'd you beat in the finals? We met Arizona in the finals. So I joke with Richard Jefferson all the time. Oh, that's right. Yeah, they had Gilbert Arenas, RJ. God, that was one of the last championship games with a ton of talent. Yeah. It was crazy.

Because then after that, Carmelo was 0-3 and he was like the first one and done guy to basically win it all. Carry a title team and then I feel like basketball dipped. For college it dipped. Now I don't know what to make of it. I love the atmosphere. You feel that when you're on location for these games. The atmosphere

exceeds the talent on the court. Yeah. Yes. Yes, that's where we are. It's unfortunate, but... I mean, look, there's still nothing like college ball, but it's like... I don't look at basketball, though, in any more verticals, man.

I look at it as one thing. And it's so funny because people are like, oh, you're a college basketball analyst. I'm like, well, all the dudes that I call now, I've been doing this for 12 years. All the dudes that I call

are in the league. And I watch the league all the time. I'm just a basketball junkie so to watch a kid from high school then go into college and then go to the league I mean that's what it's all about you talk about the entire process I think the biggest thing for me with college hoops is the timeouts every four minutes I just hate it so much it's just so awful to watch I it ruins the flow And especially when we get to like bigger and bigger stakes and you get to the final eight and the final four,

and then you get to these bigger, you know, these domed arenas and 55 and the sight lines are weird. And then there's no flow to the game. And then people are like, yeah, wow, this game's not good. I wonder what happened. And it's like, I know what happened. The game has no flow and they're playing in a football stadium. I agree.

I mean, we should just make the league, we should make all college basketball like it is Euro basketball. Like make it a 24 second shot clock, make the three point line expansive, play faster, have fun. I mean, all these guys who are traditionalists, I get it. They want to slow the game down and you can say that about the arenas, but I just want to see a faster pace. You need to keep me involved because I, like I keep me involved because I get paid to watch it,

and I lose interest in a lot of games. When you go to Big Ten games and halftime score is 25 to 13, I'm like, somebody shoot me, please. I want to see fast pace. I want to see dunks. I don't want to watch a team playing four corners. I don't know how they fix it because I don't think they have an incentive to fix it because if you're think they have an incentive to fix it because

if you're a coach this is great you're heavily involved there's a lot of timeouts you're on tv all the time you you're ordering people around telling them what to do you're making eight million dollars a year you're making a million a year and and your best player has gone in six months anyway so you're basically the star of the team so I don't want to change that if I'm a coach and if I'm the NCAA I'm getting so much money from the timeouts. I'm not fixing that either. But the question for me is like, at some point you get to care about the product. So even if you did it every five minutes, instead of every four minutes, that extra minute is still like three more plays and a little more flow. Well, that's the best part too. We talk about

the product being like the content and how it's displayed on TV. We're not talking about the kids. Like the kids are the main product, right? So it's like now we're talking about these rules. Like, well, yeah, Adam Silver, let them go straight from high school. Like kids should be able to go whenever they want. But then Kyle's gonna say, well, why don't we keep them here for two or three years?

And I hear coaches who are making $8 million a year, you know, bitching, complaining about, well, it's hard to recruit. Well, you get paid $8 million a year to recruit and you're flying around on a private jet so you can get back to your family every night. Like, all right, well, it's hard to recruit. Well, you get paid $8 million a year to recruit and you're flying around on a private jet so you can get back to your family every night. All right, with that comes- How hard is it to recruit?

Difficult. Not for Cal, not for Kay. Hop in a freaking jet, you show up, everybody treats you like you're royalty for an hour and a half. You say some bullshit and then you fly home. First class problems. It's like the grueling, grueling recruiting.

It's grueling if you're the head. It's streets of recruiting. Yeah. If you're the coach for Holy Cross, it's a little more grueling. You're connecting flights in Arkansas. You're renting cars, driving nine and a half hours. Yeah. That's grueling. I get that. But even like the Gonzaga guy, I don't, Mark Few, I don't. Have you ever been out there by the way? I can't imagine it's that grueling. It's incredible. Yeah. He gets every kid in the Pacific Northwest, Australia. He has all these pockets. It was just like, all right, who's the best Australian this year? We'll get him. We'll get the best kid in freaking remote Washington. And it's like, these colleges take care of your entire families too. I mean, like with all these different things you could do with your charity, then the college is in bed with

your charity and you can bring people under your family through the charity. They can get paid to do different things. I mean, it's a hell of a business. I mean, I love it. I'm just, I just get pissed off that the kids can't participate in it. So you're in that corner? A little bit. I mean, because I got my degree, which was great for me, but I wanted a few to actually, but if you're asking me realistically, I should have left my sophomore year. I was going to be top five pick, right? Like my sophomore year. When did you leave? What year? I left my sophomore year. I was going to be top five pick. When did you leave?

What year? I left my junior year. I stayed another year. Well, nowadays, you'd be one and gone. You'd be gone in March. You'd have a personal trainer and you're 19. But how different could my career have been? I mean, do I make that same mistake if I play with MJ in DC?

I mean, Kwame Brown got the first pick in the draft that year. I don't know. I think the guys now are different. I think they mature faster now. Agreed. I think social media makes them a lot more self-aware a lot earlier. They get attention earlier. And I've talked about this before on the podcast, but watching Jalen Brown and Tatum, Jalen Brown's different because he's probably one of the 10 smartest guys who's come in the NBA in the last 30 years. He's just like, that guy's going to go off and leave basketball and do something crazy. Tatum is a smart kid,

but more of a traditional, the kind of guy that comes in and, and he's already really polished and knows how to give interviews and knows how to handle his business and works hard. And it's like, he's a five-year vet, but he's 20. And that I think is the biggest difference I see

with the guys now is how polished they are. You can add on to that too, because of social media, you have a lot of guys in the league that are paying attention to who's next. And guys these days are more willing to say, yo, come on, I got you. Like if you see CP3 or some of these guys with their AAU squads, like they all,

like if you're an elite high school athlete, like you know a couple of NBA dudes who want to take you under their wing. Like I didn't have anybody to be like, yo, Jay, come on. I got you. It's just the way the game is different now. Allen Iverson might've taken you to a casino and peed in a plant. Exactly. Or to a strip club and made you spend 35 grand. I mean, like I spent my first year battling with Jay Rose and we talk about this man because he wasn't a Duke guy, you know, and we had some like internal strife and how that worked out.

Right. So it's just different. He's such an asshole. He's a beautiful asshole. I love that guy. Hold on. We're gonna take a break. Taking a break to talk about SimpliSafe home security.

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That is SimpliSafe with two I's. SimpliSafe.com slash BS. And since we're here, don't forget, Fortnite Friday, twitch.tv slash TheRinger. Friday, 3 p.m. Eastern time, 12 p.m. Pacific time. I will be playing Fortnite with my son, Stephanie Stone and Jason Concepcion. We are forming a Fortnite squad,

taking on all comers and comedy won't suit because guess who's fun to kill in Fortnite? People over 40 like me. So I'm going to die a lot, but that's fine. It'll be good. Anyway, check that out. All right, back to Jay Williams. Picking up where we left off,

you come into the league at the tail end of probably the worst generation the league's had. All these dudes that got paid a lot of money right away, guys who didn't reach their potential, guys who were kind of handling their business the wrong way for the most part, guys who were bouncing around a little bit. I look at somebody like Kenny Anderson, who was one of my favorite college players ever.

God, he was so nasty. If you just took him and put him in a time machine and put him in the league in 2013, it's a completely different career. And he has a rookie scale contract. He's got to work for his deal. He's got better influences around him, stuff like that. And his generation, he didn't have any of that. And he's making $10 million a year right away.

He's got no role models. He's on his own. And he just, his career goes the way it does. So you go in and these are your role models, this generation of these guys that were, I don't know, it was kind of a dark time for the league in some ways. It was weird, man. It was like, I, you know, Jay and I talk about this a lot. Like I felt first off, I lost 13 games in my college career, right? So I'm still uber competitive in everything I do, right? It's like the same way I can watch you on TV or listen to your podcast.

Like I'm jotting down notes. I'm thinking about, do I think this way or do I want to spin this? What else do I believe? How do I make good content on TV? And at that time, like I didn't have anybody that was like, yo, let me help you. Even like even my rookie year, like me and Jamal Crawford.

And I love JC. I can't believe he's still playing in the league today, which is 18 years. It's crazy. And he's still doing the same thing. I watched him play against his son the other day up in Seattle and they're going back and forth. Like how come him and I weren't in the backcourt together playing free flow style? Like we were real, we're still running the damn triangle. Yeah. We're running the triangle with Tyson Chandler and Eddie Curry and Bill Cartwright, who was our coach at TalkSite. And I love Bill, but like, you know, Bill had no head coaching experience. And then after a game was over, everybody just went off their separate way. And I'm thinking about how do I beat out Jamal Crawford for a starting spot? Because our team pitted us against each other. Yeah. Instead

of like, how do we just run and destroy people? It's funny, if you took that exact roster that you had. We had Eddie Robinson too who signed that $40 million deal and that dude smoked a lot, but it didn't matter. He was so crazy athletic and was so different.

Like you could throw, any bad pass at all, Bill, was a great pass with E-Rob. Like he was that incredibly talented. Jalen and I, we spent two straight years together and a lot of time together. And I've heard a few E-Rob stories.

Oh, they're legendary. Now that is somebody who actually might be able to get a 30 for 30. Yes, E-Rob. Yes, E-Rob. One of the all time greatest, man. E-Rob, you weren't really sure where you were getting at game time with E-Rob.

What kind of state of mind he was in. Yeah, exactly. He was a little bit foggy at times. But you know what though? When it cleared up, it cleared up big time. You. Yeah, exactly. He was a little bit foggy at times. But you know what, though? When it cleared up, it cleared up big time. You're like, oh, there's a glimpse. It's almost more impressive that somebody could handle their business off the court that way, but then go on the court and score 27 against Charlotte.

Because he didn't care. Yeah. So, I mean, think about that. Think about how that can switch up the narrative, right? In the game, you're intense, you're about it. But for E-Rob, I'm like, yo, you into it? He's like, yeah, man, I'm good. I'm like narrative right in the game like you're intense you're about it but for erob i'm like yo you into he's like yeah man i'm good i'm like yeah all right yeah you're good who who else were your role models on that team wasn't oakley didn't he pass through that team no we had well he was on there eventually like in eventually yeah when

i left i wasn't there yeah i was already done uh we had cory blunt who was on that team cb we had lonnie baxter um because that team was CB. We had Lonnie Baxter. Because that team was like a science experiment where you just put all these young dudes against each other with no veterans at all. Yeah. You know who was my, he was like a big brother, Rick Brunson. Like, you know, Jalen's dad. Yeah. He was great. He'd sleep practice every day with scar marks and then he would borrow my Corvette and just not give it back for like two and a half, three weeks. I'm like, yo, can I get my, can I get my Corvette back? He's like, yo, I'll give it back to you when I'll give it back to you. I'm like, are you really just punking me right now? Do you,

this is, you know, it's my endorsement deal. He's like, I got you. It's okay. Yeah. That's Rick Brunson. Do you remember what you signed for? Uh, well, yeah, I signed, I signed my rookie deal. I think I signed for like 3.6. And then you got the, all the endorsements and stuff. I had a deal with Corvette and I had a deal with Adidas. Those are my first two deals. And then I got lucky enough. Thank God by Jerry Reinsdorf and you know, all those guys that I got my next year of my deal when, you know,

cause I got my accident. I shouldn't have got it, but they gave it to me. Thank God. And I was able to stay on insurance too. Cause I had 13 surgeries. So that was pretty big. Jesus.

I remember. So riding a bike too because I had 13 surgeries. So that was pretty big. Jesus. I remember- So riding a bike does, Bill. It goes wrong. Well, I had the same thing. I almost died riding a bike too. Really? I was 16, yeah. I had a, remember those Honda Elite motor scooters?

Yeah, yeah. These were like 65. Uh-huh. And I was going, I used to ride that thing like a maniac. No helmet. It was mid 80s. And some old lady cut in front of me and almost that same thing. But my, my stuff was a lot like broken shoulder, broken ribs, broken collarbone, broken cheekbone,

stuff like that. I didn't have like, you know, and especially I wasn't an athlete like you, but I get it, man. You're sitting there in that bed for, how long were you in the hospital? I was out two and a half months. Yeah, you're sitting there just, not only are you in pain, but you're just thinking about what a dumbass you are.

Exactly. Yeah. Like, what am I doing? I'm such a dumbass. How am I here? Well, the thing is you have so many people that tell you you shouldn't be doing it. But at that time I didn't want to listen to anybody. I mean, I was doing what I wanted to do.

I made it. I'm on a billboard going down I-90. Yeah. I got all these dreams that I've ever had. Like I'm here, I'm living that life. I'm going, takingboard going down I-90. I got all these dreams that I've ever had. Like I'm here. I'm living that life. I'm going, taking planes to Vegas privately, hanging out with J Rose and kicking it

and still playing against all my idols and Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, AI, you know, dropping 20 against AI. I'd be like, I'll just drop 20 against AI. Like I'm on my way. Like you couldn't tell me anything at that given moment. Yeah. Did you play against MJ or no?

Yeah. MJ just told me how he was going to score on me. It was the best moment of my life when we were playing against him. First off, J Rose found a way to switch off MJ multiple times. So easy. That's part of his brilliance. I'm like, come on, man. Yeah.

So yeah, he backed me down to that left pinch post. Told me he was going to come over to the left shoulder. Didn't believe him. Shot it over his left shoulder. Huh? He had no knees? Huh? He had no knees at that point and still doing turnarounds? Still scored. Did you try to ISO him on the other end?

I couldn't because we ran the damn triangle. Oh my God. There was no ISOs in our game. It was pass the ball to the side, run to the corner, wait until you get the ball back with one second or two seconds left on the shot clock, then shoot it. I remember that's why my stat sheet is shitty. Oh my God.

You should think about that. But you weren't the first team that fucked that up. Because I remember the Mavs when they had J. Kidd and Jim Clemens became their coach. And he was like, I got this idea. We're going to do the triangle. And I didn't have a column yet.

I hadn't even started my old website. And I was like, someday if I get a sports sports column I'll be writing about how fucking stupid this is you Jason Kidd who's clearly like the most equipped guy to run a fast break that we've had in the league you know since anybody in the 80s and you're having him walk it up and do this controlled

offense what is this? Can I just tell you how much I love J. Kidd I did a short stint with the Nets and Lawrence Frank was the head coach. And the first day, first couple of days of training camp, Lawrence Frank drops his big ass book on my desk. And he's like, here are all the plays. If you're going to make this team,

you need to memorize them all. I was like, holy shit, what am I, a quarterback? Yeah. Like what kind of book is this? So then we're in the game and we're in practice and J.K. is coming down and Lawrence runs, yells out a play. And Jay kind of looks at him like, I don't know what this play is. And then Jay just goes wide. And next thing you know, we get screen and roll and all this stuff.

And I'm like, so Jay, like, what's the secret? He's like, just don't listen to Lawrence Frank. He doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. He's going to be gone in a year anyway, Jay. And I'll be here. And I'm like, but I may not. He's like, help me out. Like, how do I do it? Yeah. What do I do? But yeah. So I had to learn the playbook. So I still didn't make the team. Did you, when you were coming back, did you have a glimmer of hope at some point

and you were like, wow, I actually might be able to come back? Yeah, it was. Cause I, so Bill Duffy was my agent. This was so interesting. And I'm out here in California training at the Home Depot Center in Carson. And I met one of the owners, Eddie

Viola. Yeah. Who's now, I think he owns the, is it the Jaguars? I think he owns a hockey team. And so Eddie and I are really close and we're talking and he's like, you're going to make the team. And we were in great standing with the team and I was going to go there. I was going to go through training camp, but there was a spot open and I'm on Eddie's private plane coming from LA back to Teterboro. And we're on the plane and we're watching the draft. And then during the draft, the net select Marcus Williams from UConn.

Oh yeah, the laptop stealer. The laptop stealer. And then Marcus's agent is Bill Duffy. And I'm like, oh, how does... So I'm just watching my whole career just snap right in front of my eyes. And I went from being like the how does, so I'm just watching my whole career just snap right in front of my eyes. And I went from being like the second tier point guard to the third tier point guard. And then it was like, I went through training camp. I mean, it was a good bet on

their part. It's all business, right? I couldn't sustain it throughout training camp. But Eddie had me working with this guy named Sifu who was like this trainer. Like I'm literally standing in the corner for an hour before practice, kneeling down, holding these squats because I was supposed to make my legs stronger. Yeah. Then doing therapy. I just, it was too much, man. I couldn't do it. If that injury happened in 2018, is the technology better or is the same thing? I still have drop foot. I mean, that's the only thing that held me back from playing is I can't pick my left foot up. Yeah. So I had to wear this band that they attached to the top of my toe that pulled my foot up to keep my foot dorsiflexed. And that's the only thing I have no, I mean, I can still go

left. I can still play, but I don't have that burst of speed like you would need to play in today's game. Do you still play now? Yeah. I still play pickup all the time. I still destroy people. It's still fun. Hesitation, step back three. Oh no, I bully people. I play serious. I will punish anybody in all the Jewish leagues I play in I am like a Jewish Jordan I'm a black Jewish Jordan it's great we played

we used to play at the finals the NBA would have these games that Jalen would play and he was really out of shape back then now that he's with Molly he's in good shape

Molly's kept him tight and right Molly's done a nice job Jalen came into training camp and he looked pregnant he looked like the guy you ever seen a movie The Great White Hype we talk about this all thealen came into training camp and he looked pregnant. He looked like the guy, you ever seen the movie The Great White Hype? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We talk about this all the time. He had a stomach and he used to rub his stomach and just destroy people. And then like, yo, come get me out. And he would sit on the sideline for like five, 10 minutes

and come back in the game, scrimmage for like two minutes, destroy people, then go out again. Like, yeah, I'm coming. Well, he had that old band game. I know. So then when we would play pickup,

he would, you know, he would just be basically just shooting threes, trying not to get hurt. But if people started talking shit, he would do that recurring spin move lefty thing where he starts out 25 feet away and he's just spinning and all of a sudden it's a layup. And people are like, what just happened? Yeah, not dude. Paul Pierce is another one. I love those old man pickup games. Paul Pierce is probably good now. He probably hasn't played in a year, two years, whatever.

But he's that herky jerky. He knows how to play. Yeah. Mike Finley used to do that all the time. Dude could not move, but would find a way to get a shot. Remember that? He played an extra five years. I know.

Like, how are you doing it? Yeah. Well, you don't have to move in order to get your shot off. You can stay in one spot. I feel like Dirk can play until he's 56. I hope he doesn't, though. Well, he should have hung it up already, but the dude loves basketball. He likes being

on a team. I know. He's banking his $7 million a year and he's like basically Sam Perkins in the mid-90s for now. That league minimum for him is nice. Is that what they're doing this year? I don't know. I heard. Wouldn't that be the plan? I mean, he landed Dirk. I think so. I know Cuban paid like $13, he landed Dirk King on. I know Cuban paid like

$135 million for Dirk's documentary, which wasn't a salad crab, bro. He paid whatever the Titanic budget was that he paid for Dirk's. Like, this is a great documentary, Dirk. Here's $238 million. You got to love Mark, though, man.

Mark is kind of like a genius boss within the league. He just says whatever he wants. You want to find me, find me. He doesn't care. He was on a really bad run. And then the Dockage thing, that trade was great. I love that trade. I think it's going to go down as one of the all-time one-sided trades.

Now that's the case. We were talking earlier about when you're right, where you're wrong. I think sometimes you have to go all in if you're going to do what we're doing. And that's one where I'm all in. I think Donchich is going to be great. I think that trade is going to go down in history. And I think he's going to revive Dallas. So I'm happy being on that corner.

He's going to revive Dallas. I think he's going to revive the Mavs. And I think he's special. I think he has a chance to be special. I'm curious to see how they utilize him though. I think he needs to play off the ball. Wouldn't you say so? You think he's a diehard PG?

I don't think it matters. Yeah? I think there's only a few guys like this. It doesn't matter. You know, like Magic was a point guard, but it didn't really matter. Like he played with Norm Nixon for like four years and was like, all right, I'll do some small fight. Like he'd be anywhere and be good.

And I don't know, I kind of feel like Durant's like that. I like those guys. And it goes back to the pickup thing. These guys that are just like, all right, who's on my team? All right, I'll do this in this game. I got it. Yeah, just find a way to win. Whereas so many guys are like, like Russ is like this., I'll do this in this game. I got it. Yeah, just find a way to win. Whereas so many guys are like,

like Russ is like this. I have to do this. So you're going to have to, we're going to need these guys around me because I'm only doing this. And those are, I don't like those guys as much, just aesthetically. It will be nice to see him and DS,

you know, junior play in the same backcourt. Yeah. It's pretty dangerous. Because Dennis Smith is a stud. Yeah. So the Mavs fans are already very protective of him. Because I'm dubious.

Yeah, I can tell you have this weird look on your face when I said Dennis Smith. Well, I wonder if he's a good stats, bad team guy. He basically needs to prove me wrong on that one. Yeah, but he just played in a bad team last year as a rookie. But that might be what his destiny is. Like, I think Bagley's like that on the Kings. He'll get his 20-10s and they'll lose.

Yeah, but I mean, that's just, I mean, it depends upon where you go, though, right? I mean, I insulted a Duke guy, so now you have to defend him. Duke-Omerita. I don't care. I don't care. No, you guys have to, you do, it's like a cult. Is it? Yeah.

You go in, they take your blood. They implant the chip in the back of your neck. He puts a little chip in your neck. You don't know it's there. Oh, I never knew this. You never knew that? It's like the Matrix, no. Yeah.

There's a chip in you right now. I kind of marched it to beat on my own drum. There's a chip in your head. You don't realize it. Oh, that's scary. There was one time when you passed out during a massage in practice and they were like, he's asleep. Let's get him. Coach K. Chip.

Coach K. Chip. Coach K., everybody who's ever played for him, it's like he's like a family member, but even, I don't even love my dad as much as the Duke players love Coach K. And I love my dad. You say anything

and it's like, what? It's cold like. Yeah yeah it's cold like yeah it's cold like but you know what they're like it's the way he it's the way he gets you to buy in i think that's a that's how he does it it's like because it's not about it doesn't become about you it becomes about us which is i don't know if that necessarily translates to the next level because what what he does there is very special that's why he was able to do it usa basketball yeah all of a sudden you get to the next level because what he does there is very special. That's why he was able to do it at USA basketball. All of a sudden you get to the next level. It's not about us. It's about me when you go to a bad team, right?

So how do you change that culture at the next level? But that's what he's good at doing. That's what the ringer is like. That's what the ringer. It's about us. It's like a silent recruiting pitch. The site wins, you win. That's how we approach things.

It's not about you winning. It's about if we win, you win. It's good for you. You guys do kick-ass content though, man. We're trying, man. I listen to you guys every day. We're trying. Speaking of that, let's take a break.

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And how important is the greatest victory total of all time record? Putting that away so that nobody touches it. Well, his hair is still black, so he's obviously going for a while. I'm not convinced it's really black. Of course not. But I don't know, man, he, he's so immersed

in it. It's so him that I don't know if I want it to go away for him. It's almost like Dean, like, you know, like when you, when you don't have that control, then what do you do when you're used to that being your life, right? His family's immersed in the life. His wife is immersed in the life. And I mean, they just keep, I mean, that kid RJ Bear is going to be a stud. They just keep, you know, cranking it out year after year after year. I don't know what happens.

I don't want him to go away. I'm going to throw negative Coach K things at you and you defend them. Just things that are in the atmosphere. Okay. Coach K, big educator, believes in kids finishing their degree, but now he's the master of one and done,

only pretends he's not, but he is. I think he's evolved into becoming more of a master of how to help you run your business. I think it used to be that way, that he wanted you to graduate. But I think I've watched him, if it's the fantasy camp surrounding players with this kind of board mentality where if it's like you meet Eddie Q

you meet all these different guys these guys are on your board here's how we develop your brand or your business so I'm still in your life for four to ten years but maybe only one of those years you're actually playing for me whereas like 20 years years ago, he's recruiting you. He's like, you're going to come here. You're going to get your degree. You're going to play basketball and be prepared for life.

And now it's like, I have you for seven months, but I'm still going to prepare you. Yeah. He's going to try. I mean, I think the thing that's difficult and I just got done doing this

with this whole series called Best Shot is when you coach, like you try to make that one-on-one connection with everybody, but realistically you can't sustain that. Like, how do you sustain? I mean, I've been able to do it with these, you know, 13 plus kids. Yeah. And it's been great throughout our series. And this is my first team. So there's a different connectivity I have with them. But if we continue to do, how do you maintain all that and still be a father, still be a husband? You have 300 people in your life. You can't, you can't do

that. It's almost seems like, so you come in and you give yourself for a certain amount of time and then inevitably they have to figure it out on their own, but you're always there. And I think he's always there if you need him to be there. You mentioned Eddie Q. Is he the most crooked booster that we have right now in college basketball? By the way, he listens to the podcast. He's brilliant, man. Who doesn't get Apple stock who goes to Duke? I don't know, but I tell you one thing, I had him one year on my team and we won a championship and we all got like the iPods when they were first coming out. And I'm like, oh, I had no idea who Eddie was or what Eddie did. I mean, I was cursing Eddie out.

Yeah. I was yelling at him, but that dude played hard, man. He loved it. He's a hoops junkie. I just got done listening to KD talk over at the variety thing. And they were talking about Eddie and I just love how immersed he is in the sport, man. He goes on location to games. Oh no, he's next level. Like he is like the highest level of some of these on location to games. Oh no, he's next level. He is the highest level of... Some of these people are like, yeah, I love sports, man. This guy's flying to the ACC tournament in Greensboro

and then flying back. I always have my radar out when people are trying to pretend they're sports fans. If you're flying to Greensboro for the ACC tournament, you're not pretending at that point. No, he's not. He's probably flying charter because he's wealthy. But still, you're going to Greensboro for the ACC, you're not pretending at that point. No, he's not. He's probably flying charter because he's wealthy. But still, you're going to Greensboro.

That's the real thing. I mean, I wish it was true that we got Apple stock. I mean, if we got Apple stock, I love you. But you don't have to tell me. I wouldn't be doing TV. You don't have to tell me. You keep that to yourself. Okay.

Coach K, last Coach K thing. He did USA basketball because it was the most brilliant recruiting tool that anyone has because he has all these dudes on speed dial now for when he's talking to RJ Barrett. It's like, oh, you love Kevin Durant? Hold on. I'll text him right now. Truth. Yeah.

That's smart. Why wouldn't you do it? I mean, it's like Cal. I love Cal. He's like, I'm going to coach the Dominican team now. I'm like, all right, well, it works out for Cat. But look, you have to find a hook. You know how it is. But you're, all right, well, well, it works out for Kat, but, but look, you have to find a, you know how it is, but like you're genius at this, man. You continue to reinvent yourself

all the damn time. Thanks for the plug. You do. And you always have some kind of backup plan that can be better than the plan that you're naturally putting together. Right. And I think that's how Kay looks at it too. It's like, well, I can do this, but I could just use it to leverage it. And I get a chance to build my values into the culture of our country. I think he's really smart, obviously, but the reinvention of what he's been able to do now that he's in his, is he in his seventies? I think he's getting close. Yeah. I think he's almost 70, but the, first of all, the USA basketball thing was brilliant. And whether he stumbled into the right the extra reasons or whether he knew right away really smart the fact that he audible to one and done

at a necessity but did it in a way that he's not perceived as a one and done guy and somehow cal para takes all the shit for it and they're they're doing they're basically in a war now every year for these guys and nobody considers Kay a one and done guy. He's unique, man. Guess what? He's a one and done guy. I would think it's weird. I feel this from you.

You're a dynasty kind of guy. I think you'll be more relatable to Duke than the hate on it, though. I mean, you're a Celtics guy. You guys have won championship after championship. You should appreciate it. But even more relevant, I'm a Pats guy. No, that's even better. I take it personally when people are against the Pats. You're against excellence?

You're against Bill Belichick? You're against sustained brilliance? But with Duke, I'm like, fuck those guys. What's in the water? What keeps Tom Brady going? You know what it is for me with Duke? Being in college, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Danny Ferry.

They just had certain guys that were really fun to root against. And I was all in on Fab Five. This is obviously years, years before I knew Jalen. I love the Fab Five. I just thought like, just the five freshman thing, I was so into that. I love the Fab Five. I love the Kenny Anderson, Brian Oliver. I'm blanking on the third guy, Georgia Tech team.

You know, they- No, Steph was later. Later. It was Brian Oliver, Dennis Scott. Oh, Dennis Scott, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But every year college basketball would have these teams and you get to root for them for two to three years.

And then it kind of become like your little adopted fun team. Then there'll be the years like the Louis LeMary Mount. It was like, oh, Hank Gathers and Bo Kimble. And then it's like, oh, Hank Gathers. Well, they're still playing. Oh, Bo Kimble shooting lefty free throws. And you can have these moments.

But now it's like, it's just really hard to keep track. I think the Duke thing is going to be fun because they just, having three small forwards who are all so different. I'm kind of fascinated to see how that happens. Have you seen R.J. Barrett play yet? So he's the consensus. He's truth, man. He's the consensus one.

He's next level. Yeah. It's like, I'm quick to tell you if I don't think somebody's really that good. I mean, this dude just, I mean, I watch him train with Drew Hanlon. He just trains. He does everything like a pro already. Yeah. He's way heads and shoulders above everybody else.

Our ringer dudes who we do a draft guide every year that I think is really good. And we have guys who are really into the draft. And they're already saying it's him and then it's the next tier. But we find that side every year with college hoops. There's always that second or third guy that comes in out of nowhere during the season or, oh, I didn't realize. And then all of a sudden there's three. So I'm sure I need three because the Celtics have that Kings pick. We're not getting RJ Barrett because it's top one protected.

That's very true. It just keeps getting better and better for the Celtics. It really does. I said this the other day on get up. Um, though, I think they're going to win it. I think the Celtics are going to win it next year.

You don't believe in your own team. Cause your, your whole facial expression just got completely. Yeah. Okay. All right. I think that everything that happened in the East was really nice. It was perfect for you.

Having LeBron in LA. Great. Good. Please leave LeBron. Uh, that was nice. It was perfect for you. Having LeBron in LA. Great. Good. Please leave LeBron. That was good. Kawhi to Toronto. I don't know if I really want to play. Great.

Don't play Kawhi. I was reading. So, you know, obviously Toronto is a competitor. I don't want the Kawhi thing to work out. I understand. I thought it was a smart trade. We talked about it on the last podcast, but I've been reading stuff,

trying to convince myself that this is going to be a disaster for them. And the best thing I've read so far is that he legitimately hates being cold. That seems to be a recurring theme. So he went to San Diego state and then he's been in San Antonio, which is never cold. And that's been the last 10 years of his life. Toronto is not the coldest city. I've made the mistake of saying that in the last podcast. I think Minnesota is. Probably Chicago during the winter. Toronto's in the top three or four. It's up there. Chicago's the worst. And if he doesn't like cold, I could see him being unhappy. And then you get the Kyle Lowry thing. Oh yeah, that's weird. Can you even go back though? How does he even plan to play USA basketball?

Isn't Pop the head coach of USA basketball? He probably bows out of that one. Yeah, probably, right? What a weird, I still don't fully, I can't wrap my head around it. How come he doesn't say anything at all? Nothing at all. Like people just taking shots at you 24 seven.

You don't say anything? He's such a strange, I don't want to say strange guy he's like a strange counterpart to the way everyone else acts who's a star in the NBA like if anyone else was in his spot they would be like on Instagram

here's my workout here's what I did today in the gym I'm coming back I'll see you in September you know it'd be that kind of shit. And Kawhi is just like in a cave somewhere. It's like an Afghanistan training. It's like, we don't get to see anything with him. And then randomly he'll just go to a Dodger game

and not realize it's like a huge deal that he's sitting where all the VIPs sit that Magic Johnson gives the tickets to. It's like, yeah, you're behind the Dodgers dugout. That's where they put

the celebs where you call for tickets and they put you there. We see you. Yeah. You're that, you can't, so I don't know

what to make of him. Yeah. It just gets to this point where I'm like, why don't we just take away 10 teams in the league? I mean, just make it 20 teams.

I mean, I'd go the other way. Just increase it? I'd have more. More teams? Because it's four every year anyway, so why not have like 32? Who cares? I mean, everybody's just going to stack it up.

I mean, if I'm a free agent in 2019, I mean, Clay's probably going to stay, but if- Are we sure Clay's staying? I mean, how much money, how much less is he going to have to take? His dad is a two-time champion for the Lakers. It still works for them. He grew up here. He's the perfect number two guy for LeBron. Or not number two, but if LeBron's putting together a top three,

isn't Klay like the perfect sidekick for him? That could be a well-done play. Come back to California, get a little of his. Why do we think everybody wants a little bit of his though? Does Klay strike you as somebody that wants his? I'm just judging NBA behavior by the last 10 years when everybody eventually wants theirs. Could be true. I mean,

Kevin Durant didn't really want his though. He went to a 73 win thing. That's true. That's fair. That's accurate. Very rarely do we see somebody make a decision that's not a little selfish when we're talking about this much money, right? I mean, Isaiah Thomas proved anything. You have to be selfish, right? Oh, yeah.

I'm being selfish every day. I mean, if I'm playing in the league now, I'm trying to get as much money as possible. Here's where I get annoyed. So we're taping this on Thursday. It's been basically 30 straight hours of DeMar DeRozan. Oh, the Raptors lied to him. Poor DeMar DeRozan.

It's like, he's fine. He's making $28 million this year. He's probably made 125 in his career. That's like signing a contract and then looking at the fine print. Like, oh, I didn't know you slid that one in there.

That's the way business is done. Guess what? Dudes get traded. It's the fucking nba yeah calm down you sign a contract if there's no no trade clause in it you might get traded that's the league that's the way it works you can finish the contract and the team can bank on you resigning you could go somewhere else and you have the leverage there like there is no loyalty in sports anymore i don't think the last time we saw loyalty was when the Lakers gave Kobe Bryant $50 million for two years. When he was completely broken down.

He was completely broken down. No way he could even play. Thanks, Kobe. Here's a lot of money and we're going to suck for two years. We're loyal to you. It's legendary. But that was literally the last time. That would probably be the last loyal moment in the history of the league until the Warriors will give Steph Curry.

It clearly does something for LeBron. There's a statue of LeBron James outside the Cavs stadium, right? I mean, that's loyalty on LeBron's part. I'm not saying that needs to work out with ownership over there. LeBron was conditionally loyal to Cleveland. He came back but only signed these one-year deals and put the pressure on them to, instead of trying to build something, compete right away year after year.

And now he's left them in a bad place. I thought it was really interesting with the Lakers. You disagree? I just feel like he did what he said he was going to do. He said, I want to come back and win a championship. I want to come back. I want to be down 3-1 in the series. I'm going to get Draymond to punch me in the nuts, and we're going to win the title.

However you need to do it. I mean, however it needs to work is how it works. The thing is, though, if that doesn't happen, he never wins a title. He never wins a title. I agree. Although maybe Durant doesn't go to Golden State. Maybe they win in 17.

I don't think Durant could have gone if Golden State won. The nut punch is one of the great sliding door moments in the history of the league. It really is. Who would have thought somebody's nuts would be- Draymond, obviously. God, Draymond. I was watching, I had been on the Warriors watching that

and he did that. I was like, ah. I love Draymond. He's not all there. You'd love to have somebody like that on your team. So how long do you think he can do that? Do what? Punch people in the nuts?

No. Be at that level of intensity. I don't think it's sustainable like for somebody who's like 34. The history of the league says it flames out pretty fast

for guys like that. He just reminds me of Oak. Like, he may not be as quick, but the physicality of the game will just become increased. Yeah. Like he'll just,

like why would you not want somebody like that on your team as long as they're not hurting your team? But he just finds a way to do all the things that people don't think about when they play yeah i have no idea how long his career would last but um he is somebody that i wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have a long shelf life because at some point he's gonna have to mellow out a little bit and i actually think that'll affect his the way he plays basketball because he's at his best when he's me against everybody yeah he's on to have to mellow out a little bit. And I actually think that'll affect his, the way he plays basketball. Cause he's at his best when he's me against everybody.

And he's on the road and he's screaming at people and getting into fights and getting technicals and yelling at Steve Kerr. And that's who he is. I don't think you can do that for 15 years. Well, now you got boogie. So now you have to, you,

are you pro or con boogie? Uh, it's going to be interesting to watch the dynamic, but I think if there's any team that can teach him how to be unselfish, it will be that team. For the way they play. Because of all the superstars that are surrounding him, I think it's going to be, if it actually works out,

I think it'd be a scary thing. It was a great gamble. It was a great gamble for them. What do you have to lose? People really reacted strangely to it though on the internets. Yeah. It's unfair. I think great gamble for them. What do you have to lose? People really reacted strangely to it though. And the, and the internets. Yeah.

I just, it's unfair. It's like, he might not even play till March and you know better than anybody that that's like a major injury to just be like, yeah, he'll be fine in January. Like good luck with that.

But just having, I mean, that dude gets back to form having five all-stars on your team. Yeah. Like, how do you, I know Adam Silver can't stop it. I know there's nothing he can do,

but almost in a way, I wish there was something he can do. I'm just, you know, to see everybody in the same squad, I'm like, damn, I know I wouldn't be able to do that. You can't do it because his chance to stop it, they messed up that summer when the cap jumped.

And that's how they were able to get Durant. It was a complete fluke, confluence of events, and the nut punch gets thrown in. And then it leads to them getting Durant. But Durant should have beaten them the previous round. Clay goes hot, gets super hot. So somehow OKC loses, now opens the door for Durant, and then Golden State somehow blows the finals.

And then Durant's there, and during the year, the cap jumps 30 million bucks. But it's unfortunate. Speaking of Golden State blowing the finals, can I tell you what I'm doing with LeBron? Did you hear about this? No. All right.

We did a series called Best Shot. Oh, you mentioned it earlier. Yeah. It's just, you know what it is, Bill? And just to transition, it's, I feel like- I like the organic plug, by the way. Yeah, naturally. It was good.

You know, we've been doing this for a while. It was good. I mean, I told you, I listened to you for a long time. If it didn't come up, somebody in your crew would have been like, hey, make sure you get it plugged in. Oh, shot. Yeah, great. So I feel like, you know, for a long time after I got hurt, I was pissed off.

I was angry. Yeah. Because I wanted to be one of those guys and make 250 million. If I didn't get hurt, I would have loved to play against Russell Westbrook or Kyrie or any of these dudes. I'm crazy competitive. I would have loved the opportunity. I think I would have done well. But obviously that didn't happen because of my own doing. So, you know, one of the things that I said that I think LeBron is the greatest of all time for a multitude of reasons. Number one, I think he could be Michael Jordan in one on one because we haven't seen anybody like him before. But number two, for all the things he does off the court.

So being with Maverick and all these guys from the time I've been younger, we played five star together, Honesdale. We decided, hey, how can we do something within the community that is just different? So we decided to find a high school and I stayed with these kids for three days a week for three and a half months. Where's the high school? It was in Newark, New Jersey. It's called Newark Central High. And there's a guy named OG Sean McRae. Not the one Wagner's high school.

Not the one. That's down in Camden. He was spectacular, by the way. He was nasty. He didn't have that. What was that? That gallbladder? That gallbladder problem, right, that he had?

It was gallbladder or kidney? It was like colitis or something yeah it was bad he doesn't have that man he's anyway um spending time with these kids it kind of just really it fucked me up because it i didn't have this situation even though i've been around people like this my whole life to be immersed in it yeah like we had a kid on our team names i as a he doesn't have his parents aren't around he's living by himself at 17 years old. He's paying his own rent at 17 years old, working a full-time job, making it on practice every single day. Uh, we had a kid named Hadi who lost his father during the show. You get a chance to actually see that. We have one kid named Shaquan

Clark, who he's looking outside the window. He's like, my brother's locked up in jail. My dad's nowhere to be found. It all falls on me. At 16 years old, and you hear multiple people throughout the series say, it's on you. You got to get us out. You got to get us that big house. You got like, I don't know if Shaquan Clark is making it to the league, but all this pressure on this kid to get out, he's like, I need to get out of New Jersey. And he's thinking about Miami, LA. I'm like, do you know New Jersey is called the Garden State? Have you been to other parts of New Jersey? So that's why I say I love LeBron for the fact that we've working on this series to teach kids that you cannot be victim of your circumstances. There goes the plug. It came

by Nina. She's great, by the way. And it's on YouTube. It's free. But one of those things about how do you help shape young minds? How do you help these kids get out of their own way to believe that they can do something bigger than what their circumstances tell them they can do? It's online now or it's coming online? It's online now. It went live yesterday. Great. Which is really cool. I appreciate you

letting me get the natural organic plug. Yeah, it was good. It was good. Thank you. Well, LeBron, I think has had, I think there's a lot of guys who've been in basketball had a really hard life. I think he had one of the hardest childhoods you could have and still get to the NBA and make it and succeed the way he did.

I've always been. Are you a LeBron fan? Are you not a LeBron fan? No, I am. It's funny because. Oh, you're torn. I like this. No, it's funny because I take shit for being a LeBron hater

and I feel like I've written more nice shit about him than any player i've ever written about well you know how that works you say one negative thing and you're a hater well i experienced this when i did tv and i'm sure you get it every year there was one finals it was san antonio miami and both fan bases were convinced i hated their team so it's like how does that what am i rooting for like a bomb to hit the arena so everyone dies? We don't root for teams, but this is every announcer deals with this. Fans

become convinced. I used to do this with the Red Sox. I was convinced Joe Buck and Tim McCarver hated the Red Sox. These guys are rooting against the Red Sox. I hope a lightning bolt hits the booth and takes them out. So aggressive. But with LeBron, I think the thing I've been the most impressed by is the worst decision he ever made was the decision.

I agree. Which was like, ultimately look back, it's like, who fucking cares? It raised 5 million bucks and he made a mistake. Who cares? But he hasn't, he's handled his business right. He's been a great role model. He's done a shitload for charity and for kids. He's a really good parent.

I'm a good parent. I monitor the other good parent behavior. Interesting when people call themselves good parents. Well, when people call themselves good parents, usually I'm suspicious. Yeah, because I just got very suspicious. I'm a good parent. Listen, I've proven it.

My daughter's been on the podcast three times. She's a well-raised 13-year-old. I back it up. I back it up with performance. Okay. But I just think he's handling his business great. And it shouldn't have gone that well. I think he's an anomaly.

He was, the amount of attention he got from age 15 on. How do you make it with all that on your back? Well, just look at all the child actors that have flamed out. Macaulay Culkin, where's he at? Yeah, he's basically Macaulay Culkin, but it worked out. And it shouldn't have. Who are his support system? He had basically, he had a mom who was 15 years older than he was.

He had no father figure. And he basically came super close with all of his high school buddies. And that became his family. And it worked. It's incredible. So I like the fact that he goes back into the community and does that stuff. Do I think he whines for calls too much? Yeah.

I mean, but he's human. Do I think he'd be hard to play with? Yeah. I don't think he gets enough credit for being hard to play with. Well, Kobe was hard to play with, right? MJ was hard to play with. Kobe was probably the hardest. The hardest.

By the way, I love watching all of his stuff on ESPN too. Oh, you like the detail? I do because I just, I like hearing him talk about things he would never do in a game. He's like, and look at the back cut here and look at the spacing. Can you do this?

I'm like, but Kobe, you would never do that. It's been an amazing reinvention of what his career was where he's also really obsessed with leadership. I know. And it's like, you weren't exactly like General MacArthur on the Lakers. Out of all the analogies. He's probably

considered like one of the worst teammates of his generation when it was going well, great. When it was going badly, terrible. But it's, you know, reinvention after you retire is part of his generation when it was going well great when it was going badly terrible but it's you know reinvention after you retire is part of is is smart and when you're in media

you gotta do it you won an Oscar yeah I mean see now Vince Carter God bless Vince Carter but he quit on Toronto have you watched that whole thing

that they did I think it was I didn't see it it's pretty it's pretty phenomenal but like did he really quit on Toronto he quit on Toronto

what else but that's it's not Toronto it's more management I need to have Vince on what did you say it's did he really quit on Toronto? He quit on Toronto. But that's, it's not Toronto. It's more management. What did you say? It's management? No, he quit on Toronto. Okay. He quit on them. You're such a passionate guy. He quit on them. I went to a game. I wrote about this in the book of basketball. I went to a Clippers game when he did not try in the game. I watched it. I was sitting behind their bench. I watched his teammates try to get him involved and he just didn't give a shit. So like when you're doing that, when people are paying to see you, I hold that to a different standard. At least gave a shit.

I feel like Vince is one of those guys that, and he did, I mean, look, I can't talk and I know what people say, well, how can you be that guy since your career ended? You're going to speculate on other guys. But I always wanted more from Vince. Me too. I wanted so much more from Vince. I'm like, let me take an ounce of Kobe and splash that into the brain of Vince, please.

Well, I think that's what frustrated, I'd love to have him on a podcast. Who probably I've written. He's one of the only guys I really, I don't want to say mean, but I went hard at it because I watched it. I went to the games. How do you do that?

How do you, have you ever brought somebody on a podcast that just hates you? And then how do you? No, I'm sure those people are out there though. Yeah, I would love to listen to that. The thing is though, if you're a player, if I'm criticizing you, but I'm doing it basketball only

and I'm not criticizing you as a human being and all that other shit, that seems fair. I mean, probably the closest we came, Jalen and I had Kobe on the Grandland Basketball Hour and I've been super critical of Kobe, but he's also smart. He gets it. He knows that he's one of the 10 best players of all time and people aren't going to write

favorably about him all the time. But Vince is a tough one because I'm with you. I think him and C-Web were the most talented people from that generation that never got there. And what's weird is C-Web spun it post-career that he's like one of the greats. And it's like, yeah, you made one first team all NBA and you never made the finals. And you got traded twice. And I wish we could do your career over again because it should have been much better.

I thought he was the most talented power forward I ever saw. Oh, I think he's that. And I love watching every time I see his name or every time I see him. Oh, I think he's that talented. And I love watching every time I see his name or every time I see him on TV, I think about the feud that he has with J Rose right now. It's just like... It's so fascinating. Oh my God. Hold on. Let's take a break.

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You could make a team while you're watching us on Twitch TV tomorrow. Twitch.tv slash The Ringer. Watch us play Fortnite. Look, you've done stranger things in your life. Go check it out. All right, back to Jay Williams. All right, we're back. So look, please give me details on this because i have so many

questions i'm obviously 100 loyal to jay row that's my brother for life and i know a lot of information i've heard mostly from jayland's side but when chris rubber's like lying about stuff that i know the opposite to be true that i was involved in. And that's when I know like, all right. Because like when he says they had this stuff for the 30 for 30 recently, when they started going at it again. And he's like, here's why I wasn't at 30 for 30. They didn't come to me till the very last minute. But they did. They came to him at the beginning, right?

It's just bullshit. We tried to get him the entire time. We have emails. We have phone calls. We impressed on him over and over again. Look, this is going to have a huge audience and a super long shelf life and you're going to regret not being in this. And he just didn't want to do it because it was Jalen's thing. And their rivalry that they had going back to when they were kids, when Jalen was this cool kid from the streets and C-Web

was you know a little bit a little bit better off but then also going to Detroit Country Day and it was kind of like Jalen was kind of the galvanizing guy and C-Web was the most talented of the guys but not the leader and it just they never figured that shit out and uh it's just to hear him talk about 30 for 30 now, it's so annoying because he should have been in that. How do we do 5-5 and not have C-Web? I don't know. First off, I mean, 5-5 was dope. It was just, it was mind boggling to me, the approach that he took on it. And I've never talked to C-Web about this because I don't like to get into personal views between other people. But it just seems like you would think that at that moment,

you would squash any beef that you had in order for your own brand to talk about what it was because that was the leader they were leaders of movement i watched them as kids and was like that's what propelled me to wear saggy shorts and to wear the black socks and that whole movement that's the most watched 30 for 30 we've ever had and it's the one that can show now and probably will hold up the best 20 years from now just because it captures a specific time and the sea change of what happened in basketball. For me, I was always trying to fix it, especially when, not to insert myself in the story because I'm not, but I was just there. We're in Miami and Juwan's a coach for Miami and C-Web's there for TV and Jalen's there for TV. And we had this thing in Austin when Ray Jackson came and Jalen and I were, we went out with Ray Jackson and me and my buddy Jacko,

we were calling ourselves the new Fab Five. Like it was just, Jalen's on great terms with all those dudes. But at that finals, we were on our little studio high up. I think it was either Miami or San Antonio it was one of the two and I was like C-Web's talking to Jawan on the court you gotta go down there

just go down there see what happens he's like alright I'm gonna go down there and I taped it I have the video that's why I love Jay Rose too okay I'll go down there let's see what happens well cause he was always like we're fine we're brothers and I'm like you don't talk. You're in the same place

and you're not talking to each other. Yeah. Like you're not fine. This isn't fine. If I was with my best friend from college and we were in the same place, we would hang out and talk to each other and have dinner.

And like, you're not talking. He's like, we're fine. We're fine. It's like, go talk to him. So he walked down and he walks over to Juwan and C-Web and C-Web. And C-Web kind of doesn't see him coming, but Juwan does.

And Juwan comes over and C-Web sees him and walks away and turns his back on him. Wow, they didn't say a word. Wouldn't talk to him. This was 2014. And Jalen came back and then he was mad at me that he went down there. I'm like, no, that's good. You were a bigger man. You went down.

But that's how deep this is. And I don't know. it's a bummer. Those guys were like, not only like brothers, like you were brothers with the guys you played from Duke, but those guys knew each other when they were like 11 or 12. I know. So I hope they figure it out. Maybe this Michigan thing.

Yeah, well, I mean, Jay's gonna go back, right? You say he's gonna go back for that too? I think so. Football thing. Well, I hope it does, man. You know, my thing is my relationship with Jay Rose has changed over time because I grew up loving J Rose. Yeah. I grew up loving him. And then obviously when I got to the team, he felt a certain way because I went to Duke and I remember my first game, Bill, I think we were, I think it was

against the Celtics. I think we won in Chicago and I missed some free throws down the stretch. That necessarily wasn't the thing, one of my strengths. I struggled at it. And I remember waking up the next day and reading in the paper about J Rose saying that I choked. And I was like, damn, all right. So this is the kind of shit I got to deal with. So I was naturally kind of combative with J.

You're like, what the fuck? Like, why would you even say that, right? But then I feel like as the season went along, I started to understand Jay a little bit more and about the shit that he had came from when he was with the Pacers and how he played with that kind of chip. And then I recognized his brilliance too. And at that point on, I was like, all right.

And then like, obviously I was working at ESPN. Like there's, like, there's a new level of appreciation for I have for the way he thinks and the way he sees things. So I know that he has the ability to evolve and grow. I just wonder if C-Web has that ability to meet him halfway. If J-Rose does want to meet him halfway. That's the question. J-Lyn's the most forgiving person I've ever met in my life.

I think it's squashable. But C-Web's, I don't know what's going on with that dude. To me, like if you turn your back on somebody, I don't know what's worse that you, then you could do. And that, that it got to that point.

So maybe there's other stuff that you, I don't know. Stay in the conversation. Like at least maybe you don't say a lot, but at least stay there. It's like, how can it be that bad? Yeah. You can at least do a token.

Hey man, what's up? Like if you're not even doing that, then this is some deep rooted shit, but. All right. Well, I this is some deep rooted shit. But. All right. Well, I mean, more of the story to unfold. It's a bummer.

What's it like being at ESPN these days? It's different. I mean, we, I mean, new leadership in Jim Patero makes it a lot different. You got a chance to speak with him. You didn't give me the corporate answer.

No, I'm not. I'm just, I'm telling you it's different. It's different than Skip. You won't get anything corporate from me, man. Trust me.

Well, under the new leadership, under the new rule book and the guidelines. He's a very effective leader. Everybody's saying morale's down, but I always feel like when you have a big company like that, I don't ever remember a time when I was there that people were like,

morale's great right now. A big company like that, nobody's ever happy. I was there five years ago, ironically, 2013 2013 which i think was kind of the peak of espn where they just were making money hand over fist they had no competition fox was coming and skipper and everybody were like oh bring it on fox so you're gonna come after you watch this and and the uh it was a combination of success and arrogance in a good way. And now I feel like it's a company that definitely seems to be trying to figure out,

all right, what are we going to be next decade? Are we a digital company? Or is this OTT app everything we're about to be? What are we going to mean to sports fans? And then you have the whole political stuff too. Yeah. It's complicated. Life is complicated.

I will say this, though. It's complicated. Life is complicated. I will say this though. It's an interesting inflection point for them. And seeing Jim and seeing some of the things that we're trying to do digitally, I think that's where the future is going to be. And obviously live sporting rights helps when you have that. It's just becoming a more and more difficult space to play in. I mean, we're not even talking about one day. What happens if Apple or Amazon or Netflix want to get involved in the live

sport rights? What happens then for, for everybody? It's a different game. Apple's the one that should have done it, but it just doesn't seem like it's on their radar. I mean, they just spend so much money. And Amazon, you could say that about anything. What if, what if Amazon decides to get into podcasts?

Podcasts, exactly. Anything they do, they're just going to ruin it for everybody else. Amazon was like, Hey, groceries look cool. And now it's like groceries are done. Yeah, exactly. They're just going to do it. But yeah, whoever has the live rights is going to still matter. What's new here at the Ringer?

What have we got on deck? Anything new coming up? Oh, for the Ringer? Yeah. Well, we don't have live rights unless we create a game. We could do like a Ringer kickball game. You should do like some kind of ringer video game. Nephew Kyle's

love life is so fascinating right now that it might be our first docu-series. Wait, what is going on with their love life? I like this. Who's on deck? He's single, then they're back together. They're single, they're back together. It's on the podcast. We talk about the podcast, she gets mad. He's young. Remember your 24, 25?

You have those up and down. I mean, do you talk about her like openly on the podcast or you know, I do. And then he gets super good. Oh yeah. And then he can't take it out. Cause I'm his boss.

No, it's great. It's good. Cause we're family. So I could torture him. A wise man once said nothing for you. That's a piece of advice. There you go.

Yeah. I think for us, like, uh, there's lots of little fun things to try that, you know, especially on the digital side and podcasts and documentary, non-scripted, scripted stuff that just a really good time if you can make content and if you can do a half decent job of it. So, you know, it's bleak on the one hand with the internet and what's happened with a lot of websites and things like that. But on the other hand, people want content and there's a lot of people trying to buy content right now.

So I look at something like the ESPN OTT app and some of the bets they've made early with like this MMA show and they had the Pacquiao fight. I was like, this is smart. They're trying to come up with these hardcore niche things where it's like, oh, I have to see that. So here's my $4.99 a month. And I think that's where this shit's going

for the big companies. Because we've seen it with Washington Post, we've seen it with New York Times, New Yorker, and now it should happen with ESPN. If you want to guest host Best Shot 2 with me on YouTube, I mean, you're more than welcome. Best Shot 2? Yeah, look, why not?

Let's start campaigning for it now. What city are we doing, LA? I don't know, do you want to do Compton? I mean, you're more than welcome. Best Shot 2? Yeah, look, why not? Let's start campaigning for it now. What city are we doing, LA? I don't know, do you want to do Compton? I mean, let's go out to LA. I don't mind spending time on the West Coast. I still have to do some more smoothing out with Spring Hill, I think. Yeah, yeah.

I heard about that. You heard about this fake beef that doesn't exist. I don't know about it. I'm cool with all those people. Yeah, are you? Ask Tommy. Look, Tommy's thumbs up. Yeah, Tommy was kind of quiet.

I'm cool with all those people. Define cool in? Ask Tommy. Look, Tommy's thumbs up. Yeah, Tommy was kind of quiet. I'm cool with all those people. Can you define cool? Define cooling, your definition. I'm good. We have no enemies. Are they good? We have no enemies at The Ringer. I'd even, Chris Weber.

C-Web can come on the podcast right now. We can have an honest conversation. Everyone's invited. We don't exclude anyone. It's all good. ESPN, everything's cool. I like that. My friends are in charge of ESPN now. I'm happy.

It's good times. I'm rooting for them. Interesting times. I don't know, like, for me, it's like, what is the future of people talking on TV all day? Because the podcast audience is growing. So I look at a show like High Noon, and I think those guys are talented.

And my friend Ride Home's doing that. He's super talented. Eric is great. But if I'm under 30, am I more likely to listen to that as a podcast or watch it? Listen, but my thing, I'm just tired of yelling. I can't do it anymore.

Did you feel like there was a point in your career where you felt like you had to yell and make noise? Well, I felt like earlier in my career, that was the way you had to move up the totem pole in a way. Like you had to be outside of yourself and say things that maybe, and I was talking to Kyrie and KD about that today. I straight up asked dudes. So I asked KD, I'm like, yo, how do you, how would you like to see things done as far as when you talk about sports? And I love that he's

like i just want people to tell the damn truth i think katie is the best at that i i why is everybody standing up do we have to leave i think it may be time for us we have to wrap yeah oh that's unfortunate i was really finished this point it was a good point he just wants i i don't care if he shoots back at people if he takes swipes at people if they're just random fans like that's who i am. Yeah. Like I try to showcase that more. I love that athletes are showing you who exactly the hell they are. It should be that way. But I also don't feel like that stuff that we need to sit up on a show and yell about whether we like it or not. That's just the way shit is. That's why people ask the KD

thing. I think some people are still confused why we did five podcasts and why I like doing them with him. And the reason I liked it is because he really is all about like, I want to find the truth and let's talk about this and let's get this out. And I'm not hiding anything. The only thing he won't really talk about is Westbrook. Everything else is on the table. He'll talk about anything. The Westbrook thing is- It's so interesting to see those two. But that's a little like the Jalen Seagull thing.

I know. It's so interesting to see those two. But that's a little like the Jalen Seawood thing. They grew up together and they have such a history that that one has a much better chance of them being back in the same kind of friendship that they had than I think Jalen and Seawood do. But it's a lot of baggage from when you're young and just slights and little, and then nobody wants to make the first move to make up. And so he won't talk about that, but he'll talk about anything else. And for me, it's like, those are the people I want on my podcast. Who's the real person? Yeah. Give me the real thing. Well, we want athletes to tell the truth and then we clip them at the knees for telling the truth. So like, why the hell do we want them to tell the truth then? Right. Cause you're going to end up with a lot of people just, this is my one criticism of LeBron and it's not even a criticism. I think he's a really smart guy who could have good conversations. Very rarely do you see him, the unencumbered LeBron. It's always like very carefully.

Well, can I play devil's advocate on that? Yeah. How do you find the unencumbered LeBron when there's been a microphone in front of his face since he was 13, 14 years old? True. And it seems like he's better. Maybe LeBron doesn't know the unencumbered LeBron yet. No, it's in there. Cause we had him after 2013 finals, he had a little champagne and we had him in the studio post-game thing. It's online. It was, he was awesome for eight minutes. And it was like the real LeBron. I was like, you're in there. I see you. There you are. Yeah, there you are.

So he has it. All right, we got to go. Everybody's now pacing. Jay Williams, good luck with Best Shot. YouTube? YouTube, all over YouTube. And it's free. Season two LA?

Season two. Well, yeah, me and you, co-hosts. Let's do it. All right, let me talk to my agent, Tommy. Thanks for coming on. I'm glad we finally did this. Thanks for having me, bro. All right, thanks to ZipRecruiter.

Don't forget to check them out. ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Don't forget to check out Twitch.tv slash The Ringer. Because that's happening. Fortnite Friday. Oh, yeah. Thanks to SimpliSafe Home Security. Comprehensive, easy to use protection with no contracts and a fair price.

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And then from a BS podcast standpoint, I have some sad news. I'm not going to be back till next Friday. You're going to have to make do with all of the incredible Ringer podcasts. You can listen to Ringer NBA. You can listen to Larry Wilmore, House of Carbs, Against All Odds, Channel 33. One Shining Podcast has a big Greg Oden podcast up. You can listen to that. I could go on and on and on. We have 20 to 23. I don't even know how many more great podcasts. Check them all out. Go to theringer.com slash podcast. Make do.

Make do with our content until I'm back on Friday. I will see you then. Enjoy the weekend. I don't have feelings with him On the wayside I'm a bruised soul I never was I don't have feelings with him