The Bill Simmons Podcast - Conan O'Brien Plus KD Drama and Brees for MVP | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 443)

Episode Date: November 16, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons revisits the KD-Draymond Green argument, gives some NFL picks, and makes the case for Drew Brees for MVP (1:55) before he is joined by late-night legend Conan O'Brien to talk archaic television formats, talk-show icons, SNL's golden age, Red Sox vs. Dodgers fans, and Conan's new podcast, 'Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend' premiering November 19 (24:15). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you as always by ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? Doubting the Golden State Warriors right now. That's not smart. I think they're fine. I think they got over this little hiccup, but we'll talk about it one second after the break.

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BS. That includes Thanksgiving games on Thursday. Who knows? That includes college football. That includes basketball. What else? Hockey? I don't know what else I can offer you.

Download the SeatGeek app or go right to SeatGeek.com. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com, the world's best website, as well as The Ringer Podcast Network, which just launched Shea Serrano's new podcast. It's called Villains. It's eight episodes. Episode one is up about Hannibal Lecter.

You've heard Shea in this podcast a kajillion times, and now we have his own podcast for him. So there you go for that. Don't forget to check out all the awesome podcasts we have on the Ringer Podcast Network. Coming up, Conan O'Brien, and I'm going to do some football picks as well. First, Pearl Jam. All right, we have Conan O'Brien coming up in a little bit. It is an interview we taped two days ago.

It's really good. I really enjoyed it. I had a good time. I think you will too. I think it's one of the best long farm interviews we've done this year. But I guess you'll be the judge. I want to talk about a couple of things. One is this Warriors thing, just very quickly. I was fascinated by this story the last two days. Sometimes you see with the internet, with the 24-7 talk cycle and with podcasts and

everything, everybody's trying to get their traffic, their points. This just had a lot of meat on the bone. This went a lot of different directions. And we talked about it with Chris Ryan on the last podcast. And right after we finished, we found out that Draymond had gotten suspended without pay for a day. And I had to redo the little intro about it.

Look at the little science fiction I pulled on you guys. You didn't even realize that I taped the intro after. But I have been monitoring this story for the last two days. Everybody has been basically writing the same take while pretending they have no information on it. I don't think there is new information. I think it's pretty clear what happened. These guys have just been playing together for a few years.

Basketball players get mad at each other, but the one underlying thing that made this one different was the resentment of KD's whole situation kind of spilled over and spilled out. And, you know, it is funny. Draymond does feel like this is his team. And I think he felt disrespected because KD was mad that he didn't get past the ball at the end.

He didn't like the way he was talked to. And it just kind of escalated. They started yelling at each other. I was most surprised that they suspended him without pay because that told me that what we're hearing, what's coming out about what he apparently said in the huddle was actually probably a little bit worse and cut a little bit deeper than that

in that some line was crossed. And you could kind of see it from KD's body language in the clips, which ESPN ran for three straight days, and I tried to watch most of the replays over and over again. But something happened in the verbal diarrhea that was going back and forth that some line was crossed. And I don't think it was him calling KD a bitch.

And I don't think it was him saying whatever he said about free agency and all that. I think it was more personal than that. And I think that's what caused the suspension and whatever. It's heat of the moment. People say things they regret. But it would be really, really interesting if the one thing that could prevent this Warriors team

from being a three-in-a-row tramp, three in four years, four in a row, five in a row, whatever, is just all these outside forces imploding the team a little bit because we've seen this happen. Really, every time we've had a chance to see this happen, you know, you go back to the 70s, Bill Walton gets hurt.

Portland should have won, I would say, six or seven titles if Bill Walton stays healthy. Now, his feet weren't meant to stay healthy. That was part of the reason they only won one title. But the way that just kind of unraveled and he ended up suing the team and then he left and it just ended in the worst play possible. But injuries were a big part of that.

Then you go to the 80s, the Celtics and the Lakers are just basically splitting up all the titles. They both had their kind of mini dynasties. Neither of them was like an official dynasty. It was like a die tender nasty. I forget what the word I called that was. Die tender nastery. Contender across the dynasty. But I think if Lembias had lived and had been at least as good as James Worthy or whatever, I think maybe the Celtics win five or six and maybe the Lakers win four. Who knows? They were splitting all the titles up during that stretch. The one team that had a chance to beat them was the Rockets. And the Rockets got sidetracked by cocaine and a whole

bunch of other things. So the 80s are out. The 90s, MJ and those guys won six. Probably could have been more. And I wrote about this back in February about, you know, MJ retired because he didn't have a team. They won three. He left. He came back. They won three more.

And the owner, Jerry Reinstorf and the GM, Jerry Krause, were very interested in moving on from that team and Jordan and Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen and everybody. And they kind of imploded it. And they blew it up. They didn't take care of Scottie Pippen. That one didn't end for the right reasons, I don't feel like. And I feel the same way about the Shaq and Kobe in the 2000s where you saw they won three titles and the over-under was probably five and a half. It completely imploded.

That was the all-time implosion. And I think there's been a lot of revisionist history over the years about why that imploded. But it imploded for a specific reason. Shaq and Kobe hated each other and everybody hated playing with Kobe and coaching Kobe. And it unraveled. And if you don't believe me, go buy the last season,

which was Phil Jackson's book about that whole season. And there are literally dozens of anecdotes about how bad that season was for everybody involved. Shaq wasn't guilt-free either. It just was time for that team to break up, but it was a shame. And it definitely did not last as long as it should have. Shaq only was there.

He showed up in 96. He left in 04. So that wasn't great. Then you go, the next chance we had really was the Heat in 2011. They ended up staying together four years. And I think that fell apart less because of, you know, people turning on each other and all that stuff. Really, like Dwyane Wade just got old a little faster than I think, than we expected. You know, he just was not a top 10 player anymore.

And I think LeBron sensed it. And I will always believe he went back to Cleveland because it was a better basketball situation. I wrote that at the time. Nobody will ever dissuade me otherwise. The team that he had in the finals was basically just him and Chris Bosh and two thirds of Dwayne Wade and nobody else. And he knew that wasn't going to be good enough with the way the league was changing. So he left and he went to Cleveland and he tried to build a new contender there. But that had less to do with egos and more of just circumstance and

time and the guys catching each other maybe a year or two too late. This Warriors thing, I really believe that Durant thought it was going to be different after he won the first title, that he was going to win. All the OKC stuff was going to go away and people are never going to be different after he won the first title. That he was going to win. All the OKC stuff was going to go away. And people were never going to mention it again. They were never going to mention that he chased the title, any of that stuff. And just accept it for what it was,

that he changed teams, he made the right move, and he won the title. And when that didn't happen, I think he really took it personally. And you could hear it on some of the podcasts we did together. And you could watch it and see it in some of the things he said. During the playoffs, after the playoffs, definitely had a chip on his shoulder about it. And I think what he realized was that even though he's winning in gold state, he can't win because he can win five in a row and people are still going to say he chased the title. Now, whether he can eventually shrug that off

and learn how to deal with it and just learn to accept the fact that this is the best basketball situation he's ever going to be in, he should stay. He should at least follow it to San Francisco next year. But I think that's part of it. I think the other part was after they won that first title and if you watch the ring ceremony the next year,

because it had clearly become Durant's team as a basketball team and Golden State spent a lot of the next two years, rebuilding that as Curry's team as well. And even like when they did handed out the rings, Curry got his ring last and it really felt like Curry's team. And I think from that moment on, Durant kind of realized, oh, this is always going to be Curry's team. And by the way, it is. If you go to the games, Curry is the most popular guy on the team. He's the most beloved player on the team.

He might be the most beloved player in the league other than LeBron. And if Durant leaves, I think it will be because he will always wonder what it would have been like to have his own team. That would be my armchair analysis from not having talked to him in person now for six, seven months. But it was him and Westbrook. And now he's on Curry's team with Draymond and all those guys. And if he leaves, it'll be because he wants his own team. It was the same reason Kyrie left Cleveland. He wanted his own thing. He wanted to go to his team and have the ownership of that team

and be the guy in that team. Now, I think the Clippers are more realistic than the Knicks if he leaves, but we'll see. But the cool thing about this story, if you're a Warriors fan and if you love NBA history is I actually think history would say that this is actually going to bring them closer. The more I look at this, the more I think about this. I watched Draymond's little thing, his two minutes soliloquy that he gave at practice today. And it does feel like

this could end up being healthy. I still don't know what Draymond said and maybe it'll come out five months from now but he might have crossed the line Steve Kerr was there if he said something super personal you can make believe it's good whatever but sometimes

you don't come back from that so that would be my question is how far did he go with whatever he said? I guess we'll find out someday. Maybe when Phil Jackson writes a book about that season. Hey, let's do football picks really quick.

I went one-on-one last week. I'm four-and-two since we brought back the picks and rebooted them. I am up $1.8 million. I am up $1.8 million. I'm up $1.8 million, Kyle. That's incredible. Betting a million a game. Can you believe that?

That's just incredible. How am I going to spend all this money? So proud. So three games. I like two straight up games and a teaser. First one, Saints are eight and a half against Philly in New Orleans. All due respect to this Philly team. They won the Super Bowl.

This happens. You're not the first team this happened to. You won't be the last. The dreaded year after. Ronald Darby going down, I thought, was the death knell for this team. They are now at the point of no return with injuries with the hole that they've dug for themselves.

I just don't see it. I think it's a mediocre talent team at this point for all the teams trying to make the playoffs. If you're just comparing them to the top 18 or whatever, they are not one of the top 10.

And I think this is going to get worse, not better for them. And I also, as you've heard me saying this for a couple weeks now, I think the Saints are just great. They would be my number one pick right now to win the Super Bowl. That could change in two weeks. But they're only giving eight and a half at home. It's really starting to feel like Drew Brees' year. I would like to tease them with Pittsburgh,

who we talked about this game with Cousin Sal on Sunday night. Pittsburgh laying six in Jacksonville. Feels like a trap game to some degree, right? Pittsburgh looked awesome in their last game, which was Thursday night. Jacksonville looked terrible. You never want to have the team that looked awesome going against the team that looked terrible.

I think the problem is something's broken in Jacksonville. Their defense just isn't good anymore. I don't know what happened. The way it's been explained to me from third parties is that when you have a defense that's overachieving like that and doing great and kicking ass and they come so close to making the Super Bowl and they fall short, it's really hard to get that edge back. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe they just overachieved last year and now they are what they are.

I think they lost faith in Bortles. I don't think they really have any chance of winning that division anymore. They're three and six. They would need a lot of things to go right. And they would probably need nine and seven could be the best possible record for them to win the division. I don't see it. But more importantly, this is a revenge game for Pittsburgh because Jacksonville has kind of handled their business the last couple of years. I think this Pittsburgh's team, the last five weeks has been excellent. I think this Le'Veon Bell thing pissed them off.

I think weirdly they rallied around it. I like the way Roethlisberger's playing. I like the way they can move the ball. And I thought about just betting the straight up minus six, but the safe bet is to tease them with the Saints. You bring the Steelers down to even. You bring the Saints down to two and a half. I'm putting a million dollars on this. One million dollars. So that's my first one. Second one, Chicago is laying two and a half at home against the Minnesota Vikings.

There are a few things I like about this one. One is that Trubisky has actually played Kyle. You might have to edit this out if he sucks this weekend. Trubisky's been pretty good. They've kind of figured out how to get by with him. Yeah. All right. Tariq Cohen, I how to get by with him. Yeah. All right. Tariq Cohen, I think he's due for a breakout game.

In general, I just feel like the Bears are due for a kick-ass game. I like their D, Khalil Max, healthy again. That Vikes offensive line is awful. Adam Thielen is juggling two different injuries right now. I know this because he's on both of my fantasy teams. And I went to one of the websites and just red flags all over the place. Red flags were like coming out of my computer and assaulting me. And they're like, he might play, could play.

If you've watched the Vikings, you know he is the key player on that team. Even if the Vikes keep it close, and even if there's a chance for them to win late, in Chicago, outdoors, great defense, or I should say a very good defense. We don't know if they're great yet. Has all the makings of the Vikings driving down for the game-tying field goal,

and Kirk Cousins gets strip-sacked, because that's what he does. He gets strip sacked. I love getting the extra half point. I can't believe this line's three. I'm just delighted by this bears by two and a half at home. There's one other interesting thing here. Sal and I talked, I was like, we should have followed what the record of the teams that are about to plan Thanksgiving day is the week before. Somebody at the Action Network was kind enough to actually run this data. Since 2015, teams won an impressive 14 and four straight up and 15, two and one

against the spread on the weekend before they suited up on Turkey day. So that's a three-year sample size. That's pretty good. The 12 years before that, not as good. 42 and 22 straight up, only 27, 33 and four against the spread. I bring this up because I was alarmed by the fact that this is a Sunday night game in Chicago. And then the Bears play on Thursday at 1230 in Detroit on Thanksgiving. The NFL is the worst. Seriously, Goodell, whoever works for you, if you're listening to right now, you guys are the fucking worst.

You're awful. You're just the worst. How do you do this? Why do we have bi-weeks? We have bi-weeks so that you can set up a situation where the Bears are going to play Sunday night and then play on Thursday at 1230. Fucking ridiculous. You're really the worst. You are the worst. You do not care about your players. You don't. Why do you pretend you care? Why have the blue tent? Why have the concussion spotters? You don't fucking care.

You don't. Stop it. Anyway, I still like the Bears despite all of that. And the NFL is the worst. Don't ever forget this. The blood is on all of our hands. This is the worst fucking league. How do they allow this? Anyway, go Bears. Minus two and a half. I blood is on all of our hands. This is the worst fucking league. How do they allow this?

Anyway, go Bears. Minus two and a half. I have a million dollars in that one. Here's the third one. So they moved that Chiefs-Rams game to Los Angeles on Monday night because apparently the Mexico City field was unplayable and inhabitable. What? Really? Something bad was with the field.

Huh. Could not imagine. You're surprised to hear this, I'm so surprised. You know that it's bad when the NFL says to itself, wow, this might actually be bad for the players,

the same league that has somebody playing on a Sunday night and then 80 hours later. So they moved this to LA. You would think this would be great for the Rams. Wow. I think there's going to be a lot of Chiefs fans there. We saw in the Chargers game, there was 25,000 Chiefs fans, it seemed like out of 30,000 people. You basically have the Coliseum at night. Feels like a track meet. I don't love the way the Rams are playing.

I think their offense is lights out. I think they can score against anybody. You can run on them. You can move the ball wherever. They can't close big leads. So even if they're up 10, you know, four minutes left, they could still give up the garbage time touchdown.

You know, Lombardi pointed this out on GM Street this week. They run it up on offense because they don't trust their defense. So they'll be up 38 to 27 with six minutes left in the fourth quarter. And they're trying to score a touchdown. They're acting like it's second quarter because they don't want the other team to get the ball back down 11 because they know they can't stop them. I was stunned by how Seattle was able to run the ball down their throats. And I just don't think they're good enough defensively right now.

So that extra half point weirdly becomes important. and I just don't think they're good enough defensively right now. So that extra half point weirdly becomes important. I think the Chiefs can win this outright. I'm not sure if they will, but I think they can. The Cooper Cup thing is interesting. Josh Reynolds is the backup. He comes in because the Rams, they basically play this. They play the Madden offense. They play the one running back with the three receivers

and the tight end, and they don't really mix it up from that formation. But when you play Madden and they have the hundred different variations off the one formation, that's basically what they do. I like Josh Reynolds. I actually picked him up in fantasy a couple of weeks ago because I felt like he had a chance. If one of those three guys got hurt, he had a chance to just go in and get the job done. So I don't know if they're going to miss Cooper Cup as much as it feels like because I do like Reynolds. But, you know, they only have the three receivers.

If this turns into a track meet, they might wear down in the fourth quarter. Who knows? I don't know what to expect, but I do expect a close game. I might wear down in the fourth quarter. Who knows? I don't know what to expect, but I do expect the close game. I do think the Chiefs are good. I do think either team could win this game. And, you know, there's one other thing that's at stake here.

Just mark this down. MVP odds right now, Mahomes is even. Drew Brees is plus 175. If the Chiefs lose this game, and the Saints beat, they win their game against the Eagles convincingly, or they just win it, I think Brees becomes the favorite. So I'd kind of recommend the Breeze plus 175 unless you think the Chiefs can win this game. Because if the Chiefs lose this game, I think Breeze becomes the MVP favorite.

So mark that one down for you. In the meantime, I'm betting a million dollars on the Kansas City Chiefs plus three and a half in LA, which gives me these three picks. Bears minus two and a half. Chiefs plus three and a half. And New Orleans minus eight and a half teased six point teased with Pittsburgh minus six and the NFL being the fucking worst. You guys are terrible. I can't believe you did this to the Bears. You should be ashamed of yourself. We're going to take a quick break. Coming up, Conan O'Brien.

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Conan O'Brien, you're doing it. I'm doing it. You have your own podcast. I have my own podcast. I determined, first of all, I may have had some false information. I was told there were very few podcasts out there. Yeah.

And that I was getting it on the ground floor. And so- It's like the, yeah, it's definitely not the ground floor, but we need you in the podcast world. I was also told it was a cash cow that it's just going to throw off. That might be true for you.

I don't think so. It's a labor of love. It was something, it's actually had this concept for a little while ago, which is I have, I had a Christmas party and I realized everyone at this Christmas party, 99% of them, and this has been true every year,

are people that work for me. I employ them. And I really do like the people I work with and I'm friendly with them. And I thought, I gotta make some friends. You're in your own work bubble. And yeah, I gotta make some friends. And I know a lot of people,

I know a lot of celebrities and I like them, but there's never any time, you know, I don't spend much time making friends with them. So this is a quest. I thought, you know, I'll do a podcast and I'll get them in there and just pretty much put them on the spot and say, why did it never happen with us? We get along, we're friendly, what's going on? And it's great, it's funny, I really enjoy it. And we end up talking about a lot of funny stuff, but also some of them are really brutally honest. They're like, no, no, no, it's just, there's, it's not gonna happen, you know? And also you seem a little tightly wound, Conan, and it's good.

I like that part of it. But in there is mixed a lot of great anecdotes. And I do like interviewing people and I like this format. I like being able to talk and not in six minute increments and then have to throw out a commercial. Do you know what I mean? I mean, that format is so frustrating in so many ways because it's throw it a commercial do you know what i mean we i mean that format is so frustrating in so many ways because it's how much how much prep do you do when you have the

guest on like do you know they're gonna hit certain stories because it seems like the stuff that especially breaks out from your show is when the guest has surprised you and gone on some crazy yeah i always i learned a long time ago i grew up I grew up watching Johnny Carson and it dawned on me that the stuff that always made it into the anniversary shows, this is back when in the olden days, when late night shows would celebrate. I fucking love the anniversary shows.

The anniversary shows and Carson would wear a tuxedo and his sidekick Ed McMahon would wear a tuxedo and they would show these clips. All of the clips were mistakes. Yeah. They were all mistakes. It was never, remember that amazing thing, sketch that we wrote.

Greatness, I think in late night, when anyone achieves it on any late night show is something gone wrong and the host exploiting it. So I like to have a, probably sort of like a, a good quarterback has a plan. Yeah. You have a plan and then you ditch it

the minute the holes aren't where they're supposed to be and you go another way. That's what I think a host should do. But your favorite guests are always like the Bill Burr, Norm MacDonald, this Michael off the rails really fast type of guys. Yeah. I mean, Norm MacDonald, the billboard norm mcdonald this might go off the rails really fast i mean yeah i mean uh norm

mcdonald one of the great um talk show guests of all time he invented something that why is there a man doing his taxes in the corner he's typing notes in case we have to do breakouts it's incredible he's he's uh you know it's very loud he's audibly clicking away and i really did think he's typing excitedly. You have a guy in the corner doing the books on the podcast while you're doing the podcast. No, Norm MacDonald invented this amazing thing that I've never seen anybody do before or since.

It's kind of like he split the atom. It was that revolutionary. Norm would come on and he would, instead of telling you a real story, like if I had you on the show and you're like, hey, Bill, you know, tell me, well, you know, and remember I was living in Chestnut Hill once and you would tell a real story about what happened to you in your life. Norm tells old jokes as stories that happened to him.

Yeah. So I'd be like, Norm, what are you up to? And I mean mean really old jokes from like the 1920s and he'd be like well conan i don't know if you're aware that i uh purchased a purchased a farm conan i'd be like really you purchased her yeah yeah i purchased a farm of course i have uh of course i have three daughters and i'm like you have three yeah i have three daughters on the farm. One very attractive, one not as attractive.

And of course, the third, not, you know, kind of, well, she's ugly, Colin. She's ugly. And I'd be like, uh-huh. Well, one day, this traveling salesman comes to the farm and he says, now, Norm, I'll tell you. I'll tell you. And then it's like, he's telling an old traveling salesman joke. Yeah.

And it's- But you know about halfway through where it's going., Norm, I'll tell you. I tell you. And then it's like, he's telling an old traveling salesman joke. Yeah. And it's, and- But you know about halfway through where it's going. No, I mean, I usually know. I know kind of what he's doing. I'm laughing that he has the balls to do this. I'm laughing at the audacity. So I don't even care if this joke lands or not. I'm laughing that he's committing to the fact that,

you know, no, he doesn't have a farm. He doesn't have three daughters. There's no traveling salesman, but he doesn't care in a way that is exhilarating and scary at the same time. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And plus he probably has some people in the audience

who are taking completely seriously, right? Yes. Yeah, he's got some people thinking- We call them tourists. Yes, we call them. They're usually from San Bernardino. Well, Norm had the greatest talk show moment in the history of talk shows with Courtney Thorne-Smith.

That was epic. That was so great. And it's funny because- It's lived on. Who knew that we were going to have YouTube eventually where we could just queue it up on command. God bless YouTube. I had no idea when those things were happening. I thought, we're talking 1993, 94. When those things were happening, I thought, you know, what did I know? I just thought if you were up and you saw it that means you saw it you saw an amazing thing happen and if you and then maybe if i get to stay on the air long enough

we'll have a one-year anniversary show and maybe you'll see it then but if you're not there for that it's gone and now i meet people i mean that around the world that will say, oh, I just saw that thing with you and Norm and Courtney Thorne Smith. And I'll think that was a moment of my life when I was 30. Yeah. And I'm like 85 now. Like, how is that possible? You had, the funny thing about those first few years is it was such a great time for music. Yeah. And you and Arsenio just had this murderer's row of-

I love any sentence that starts with you and Arsenio. Arsenio was having all the hip hop bands and all the rappers that were really that first wave. And then you were tapping into this whole alternative scene that was like taken off. It was so fun because some of that stuff's online stuff yeah uh you know the tricky thing about that stuff is music is the hardest thing um we're buried at the end of the show well no but also it's hard to clear in perpetuity for legal reasons oh yeah yeah um Any guests that came on my show, we can show that for the rest of time. If a band comes on and plays a song,

you can't clear it in perpetuity on the internet for legal reasons. So I'm really jazzed because we're doing, in January, we're going to come out with what I think will be the state-of-the-art website of all my stuff going back all through the NBC years, starting in 93. With the music?

Not the music. The music we can't do, but all of the comedy bits, the interviews, and we're digitizing it so it's gonna look amazing. And then you can, if you thought you saw something happen on my show in 1997, but you think maybe I was high. Maybe that didn't happen.

Yeah. Maybe Abe Vigoda, maybe Abe Vigoda got shot or maybe he didn't. I don't remember. It was late in the show. And then there was some bumblebees. I don't remember. You can type it in and you will see that moment.

That I'm really thrilled about. But the music, I mean, my first show with music was September 14th, 93. And they said, who do you want? And I said, Radiohead. And this was in 93. Yeah, that was a ballsy call at that point. And I said, Radiohead.

I want Radiohead to do Creep. Bang, Radiohead did Creep on the show. And I remember from that moment on, we could have, it was just amazing. We could have anybody we wanted. I love music. And suddenly it was a pretty incredible feeling to get to see all these people. And some of them were, I mean, Gwen Stefani came on with No Doubt when that first record came out. I just, I i mean all these sort of iconic albums yeah and they would come on and i look at those clips now and then i come over i look like a 14 year

old belgian girl i'm always like coming over like hey thanks a lot for coming on the show well we're gonna take a break we'll be right back and they're always looking like well you're not gonna last uh but it was fun it was a blast yeah I mean, obviously I've been watching talk shows since I was a kid. Like you, we're around the same age, like the Mike Douglas shows and Carson and all the different incarnations. And then when Letterman showed up, you know, and he would do his anniversary show, but he was making fun of Carson's anniversary show. But like Carson never realized it. Yep. The whole show is set up to make fun of the Carson show, but he idolized Carson.

Yes. Somehow threw Carson off the scent of, I'm actually making fun of this format. I think Carson, I'm going to say, I mean, Johnny was really aware and very smart. I think it's possible Johnny knew, but Johnny was so secure. Oh, in the early 80s, definitely. Yeah, well, also, I mean, but Johnny was so secure. Oh, it's been early. He was definitely. Yeah.

Well also, I mean, but I think also with, um, because that was his show, you know, it was a Carson production and, and, and, uh, he knew that, that Dave revered him. So I think Johnny would, would have been fine with him making fun of the form a little bit. And he so revolutionized it. Were you, were you a giant Letterman guy? Oh yeah. At that time? Because I remember when Carson came, when Letterman came to LA and Carson came on the show,

that was like one of the biggest moments of my life. Yeah. I was like, this is vindication. Carson's coming on. Yeah. That shouldn't be one of the biggest moments of your life. Well, I mean, when I was a teenager. I'm still.

There weren't a lot of girls. Okay. You're saying too much now. You should keep this to yourself. I'm still. There weren't a lot of girls. Okay. You're saying too much now. You should keep this to yourself. I'm oversharing. Yeah. Yeah. Just make it.

It was a really fun moment for me. Just rewrite that. I remember being marginally excited about it. Good. There you go. Yeah. Very good. I was like, this is kind of cool.

Yes. I was really influenced by, I was very inspired by Dave because that it was such a revolution at the time. You hadn't seen someone be funny that way. Yeah. And, you know, his tone was so original and spot on. I remembered watching the morning show. My sister, I was leaving for school, I was in high school,

and I was late to go to school, and I was going out the front door, and it was like the spring or something, and I remembered my sister Kate shouting, "'Get back here, you gotta see this.'" And so I went back in the house thinking, "'This better be, like, what is she talking about?' And she was watching his morning show,

and I wrote an article about it for, I think it was Entertainment Weekly when Dave retired that I called Suddenly Everything Was Wrong because everything was wrong. He didn't look like a host. Yeah. The set was wrong. It was not polished.

The energy was wrong. And it was great. You know, it's the true revolutionary comedy should look wrong when you first see it in anything or art, it should look wrong. I think that's how, um, and, and so the next couple of years, um, I, I watched him through college and then, uh, desperately wanted to work for him did you ever write into viewer mail? I didn't write into viewer mail did you?

I did I was in high school and I really wanted to make it might even been like 8th, 9th grade initially but never made it always was waiting on those Thursday nights could still happen on his new Netflix show. Does he do VHR mail on the Netflix show?

No, he doesn't. If he does, I'm going to mail. It'd be hilarious if he did. If he went back to stuff from 83 and was doing it while Obama's sitting out there, that'd be hilarious. What you were saying earlier about how stuff would be on and then just disappear, that was what the... I used to tape the Letterman shows on VHS, but if you missed one or if the tape didn't work, that was it. It was just gone.

There's no record of it. And now there's record of everything. Every moment somebody has, there's videotape of it. Yeah. I mean, we sound like old guys. We have a little sterno going. We're cooking some beans. We're in the woods talking about those old,

we're both, Bill and I are whittling right now. Yeah. I tell you, it was a time when on television, but it was very, it's very hard to explain to, you know, my assistant Sona who came with me today. She, she doesn't own a TV. You know, she watches everything online and everything's immediately accessible. And I've had this, I can pull out my phone and access any moment in TV history.

Right. I remember the first time I went to the Museum of Broadcasting in New York, I was, I don't know, like 25. I think it was a writer on Saturday Night Live. And I heard about the Museum of Broadcasting and I went over there and I requested, there was like an old woman there. And I said, I would like to see Jerry Lewis's monologue from his first late night show

that was this epic disaster in from, you know, September 14th, 1962. And she was like, you know, September, you know, 14th, 1962. And she was like, you wait here. And then she went away and then she came back a long time later. And it was like Hogwarts, you know, there's an owl and magicians are there and she hands it to me and I put it into a machine

and I put on the headset and I watch. Literally, what, eight years later? Yeah. Just type in, you know, you can be anywhere in the world just probably online right now oh no i've watched it a late night show he had a late night show that was um a huge thing at the time it was uh he was the biggest star and yeah they paid him a fortune to do a late night show because he had guested on Carson, I think, and just destroyed, he'd done really well.

So they gave him his own show and it was once a week and it was something crazy, like two hours, a two hour long show. And apparently the legend is, I've read a lot about this, that Jerry did no preparation. They built a massive studio for him. They did incredible amount of, he had a desk that you could direct the show from.

Everybody turned out for it. All these celebrities were in the crowd. It was huge. He had a giant like like 35 piece orchestra, ladies and gentlemen, Jerry Lewis. And he comes out and you can tell within 30 seconds, he's got nothing. And all of America tuned in because this was supposed to be a big thing. And Jerry starts saying, well, it's good to be here. And you know, okay, the show's going to be two hours long. And you know, some some people wonder how do you fill a two-hour show well we will we'll figure it out i mean and then he's talking about almost instantly about how and i'm sick of people thinking maybe we can't pull this off because i

think we can you're like not one not one joke nothing and then you can see he's kind of sweating and then you're like oh my god this guy hosted a telethon every year for like a hundred years yeah and it was it was a huge it was one of those shows where

like after the first episode it was just you know everybody was talking about what the hell happened you weren't meant to do this and I had heard about it and I just wanted to go

see it but yeah it was I remember when I moved out here went to the one in LA the museum of broadcast and it was the same thing it was. I remember when I moved out here, went to the one in LA, the Museum of Broadcasting, it was the same thing. It was like, can I call up the Mike Douglas show? What was the famous fight with Richard Pryor and Milton Berle?

Oh. And you tell, when they started getting into it, now it's on YouTube. You can just watch it. Right. I really want to see that because I'd always heard about it. And you put in the little request. No, there's these great things. I think there was one where Muhammad Ali

and Sly Stone are together on, I think it was on Mike Douglas and Sly Stone is kind of high and being goofy and Muhammad Ali is pissed. Muhammad Ali is trying to make real points about, you know, equality and the dignity of, you know, African-American race and Sly just keeps being goofy and Muhammad Ali is just really, I mean, it's fun to see,

things are so sanitized now. It's fun to see real anger and rage on TV. Remember the first year when we were doing Kimmel Show, the Mike Douglas show was a big influence and you wanted like the kind of the chaos that could happen when you're just putting different people on the couch right and it can happen sometimes but then there are other times where not only does it not happen it's just really awkward and there's a reason well you learn when

you do late night shows is there's a reason to the oh we should do and there's a reason nobody's doing that idea right because people have tried it and the variations of it just, you know. One of the things that I always feel like people can learn the wrong lessons from a success sometimes. That happens a lot. I was always a fan of surrealism in comedy and, you know, is this real? Is this not real? What's going on? Adding a little bit of that sort of SCTV. The Fugitive Guy was one of my favorites for that. Yeah. It's like, what is this? Yeah, exactly. And adding that element, but when you add surrealism,

sometimes there are people who are fans of that think, I get it, it should just be weird all the time. You think, well, no, there's good weird. Yeah. And then there's unproductive, bad weird that goes nowhere. But sometimes you see people take that school of comedy and say, oh, I get it. You know, they'll learn the wrong lesson from early Letterman, or they'll, I've had people that like, you know, liked my stuff that I was doing, you know,

and then they said, yeah, I get it. You know, it should, there just doesn't have to be a joke. It can just be weird. And I'm thinking, no, you learned the wrong lesson. Yeah, exactly get it. You know, it should, there just doesn't have to be a joke. It can just be weird. And I'm thinking, no, you learned the wrong lesson. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think there's still something to something just being really funny, which I think we forget sometimes.

Like, you know, obviously I know you have a long history with Smigel. Yep. Triumph still makes me laugh. Yeah, of course. And he's been doing it now for what? Almost 25 years? No, well, let's see. The show, my now for what almost 25 years no

well 20 years let's see the show my late night show started 25 years ago and I want to say Triumph doesn't

enter the picture until maybe 6 or 7 years in so mid late 90s so he's 20 years of Triumph how is that dog still alive well it's made of rubber

so it's got a head and it's ass you know it's one of the reasons when people always ask me how is The Simpsons still on and I'm and it's ass. You know, it's one of the reasons when people always ask me, how is The Simpsons still on? And I'm like, it's simple.

The characters can't age, you know. Triumph will, as long as you occasionally lubricate the puppet. Did you overlap with Farley? You did, right? At SNL? Yeah. At SNL I did, yeah.

Because they always said he was one of those, like in a room, was just funny all the time. You just couldn't get enough of it. Farley was exactly what you would think I did, yeah. Because they always said he was one of those, like in a room was just funny all the time. Well, he was- You just couldn't get enough of it. Farley was exactly what you would think you would want him to be. Meaning you meet some people in comedy

who you think they're going to be their persona and then you meet them and they're very serious and kind of shy and you're a little disappointed. Right. And then you meet them and they're very serious and kind of shy and you're a little disappointed. Right. And then you meet other people occasionally that completely fulfill your fantasy of who they would be. Yeah. And Chris Farley was like that.

John Candy was like that. They were exactly who you wanted them to be. And the first time I met Farley, I was a writer on Saturday Night Live and he came in, he was waiting to have his interview with Lorne. And so he wasn't even on the cast yet. He was just waiting to have his interview. And Lorne famously keeps people waiting.

Yeah. So Farley was there, I'm not kidding, I think for two days. There's an office on the ninth floor that Lorne has right above the studio. Yeah. And so the second half of the week when you're working on sketches and stuff,

that's, you know, Lorne is there and he's in his office with the door shut and he's on the phone talking to Mick Jagger or talking to Paul Simon or, you know, Lorne's talking to those people and whoever's has to wait for him just has to wait. Yeah. And so Farley was just waiting.

And I remembered saying, feeling kind of bad for him. And I said, I think I had met him before through Odenkirk at Second City. So I said, hey, Chris, I'll show you around. And Chris was like, oh, oh, okay, good. You know, he's doing that guy. Yeah, oh yeah, you know, super, super humble, Midwestern guy and bowing a lot and giggling and hee hee hee.

And then I took him out and I started doing a fake tour just through the studio. And I was like, see those cables over there? We call those cables, you know? And they're held by that cable guy right there. There's old Joe. I mean, I was giving people the wrong name. See that guy carrying that board?

Well, you'll learn more about, and Farley was cackling and we were just fucking around and he got on the show. Obviously he was hired instantly once he finally got in to see Lorne. And then I think the Chippendales thing that I think Downey wrote for him.

Once he did that, which was pretty early, it took off from there. What was your first year at SNL? I started at the very beginning. I got hired in late 87. So it was right at the beginning of- So it was right when the show was really coming back.

I timed that one. I mean, I'm not saying I timed it. I'm making a joke. I really got lucky. I showed up at SNL. I remember at the time- You came from Not Necessarily the News? Came from Not Necessarily the News.

Good show. And then I had a rule. My writing partner, Greg Daniels, who's gone on to create- Yeah, he hasn't really done much. Yeah, exactly. Poor guy. I'm going to pass the hat for him later.

Yeah, he drives two Bugattis that are tied together with electrical tape. You've never met a more frugal guy who's, you'd have no idea, but he, I used to have a rule with him when we were writing partners. I was like, we will not take any, we will not write for a sitcom. Yeah.

I was very strict. You had high standards. I did. I had high standards and I would, I literally said we will starve before we will do this, this, this, or this. We're not gonna, you know. And then I had this rule,

which is pretty at the time. If you think about it now, there's so many funny shows. There's a million funny, different kinds of shows. So it's not the case 25 years ago. No. And I had, I just said,

I said, we can work on not necessarily the news because that's a good place for us to get started. After that, our first choice is Letterman and our second choice is Saturday Night Live. And Greg was like, okay, what else? And I went, that's it. So this is a story that people would probably hate, but we got a gig at Saturday Night Live.

I went out, that was not my first choice. I remember thinking, well, that's kind of past its prime. So SNL had, Eddie had left. Then they had that weird transition year. Had that weird transition year. And then it had a year. Then he blows up the cast and gets the Phil Hartman, Dana Carvey cast.

Yes, and then I come in, I step into that just as it's starting to pick up steam you have two of the greatest cast members in the history of the show plus

Phil Hartman best utility player in the history of comedy he has to be on the all time cast yeah he has to be because if it's seven nine whatever

he still has to be in there somewhere yeah just him and Pete Davidson. I just threw that out there. I don't know the guy. But anyway, yeah, Phil Hartman. When you think about it,

Phil Hartman could play convincingly a father who's meeting his daughter's date for the first time. Right. A square father. He could play a convict. He could play a juvenile delinquent. Game show host. Game show host.

He could be, he could be Frankenstein. He could be a 1920s actor. He can be anything. And we used to call him- Unfrozen caveman. He used to call himself Mr. Potato Head because you could just take the pieces off

and put in new pieces in. Yeah. Yeah, him, Dana Carvey, on fire, John Lovitz. And. Yeah. Him, Dana Carvey, On Fire, John Lovitz. And then, you know, I got to give it up for-

And then the women were really good. The women were absolutely amazing. And they were comedians like Jan Hooks, one of the best, I think, cast members

of all time. Nora Dunn. I mean, just the fact that, that these, and then while I'm there, the people that showed up while I was there, Farley shows up while I'm there. Mike Myers. Mike Myers shows up. I remember the first day he came in and he had a leather jacket with the

Canadian flag on the back and he was super, super, super- Is that true? Yeah, super, super- A leather jacket with a Canadian flag on the back? Yeah. It's really opposites when you think about it. It's a badass jacket with the Canadian flag. It says, please, I don't want to offend you. I'm here in your bar.

I just pulled up on my motorcycle and I really don't want to offend anybody. And then Sandler shows up when I'm there and Spade and Rock and everyone's roaming around the halls. They're all kids. Did you fit in with those guys or were you like the Harvard guy?

No, it was actually kind of nice because I didn't feel like, I didn't feel like, I hung out with, I worked with Smigel, Odenkirk, Greg and I were like a unit. Tom Hanks used to call us the boiler room boys. Yeah.

Because we were just these guys that were always awake. We never went to sleep. We never changed our, we dressed like, we were still wearing the clothes that we wore in college, which is not good, by the way. And we would stay up and just write really weird stuff and roam the halls. And we were always available.

And so- That was probably the best three or four year stretch for weird, quirky, couldn't be repeated SNL sketches. And those were my favorite. Yeah. Because now they love to do the same one the 21st time. That was like, it was on one time, that was it. Yeah, that was my favorite sketches to write

were usually in the, I would say 1240. Yeah, yeah. And you know what's so interesting? Later on, I get a late night show and it's at 1235 on NBC. And that was your wheelhouse time. My wheelhouse is people are sleepy. And I,

and, and my favorite sketches that I ever worked on are, you know, wait a minute, did I just see that? Or was I kind of half asleep? That was weird. Seth Meyers called those the 10 of one sketches.

Yeah. Where, I think the first Barry Gibbs show was like, they just threw it on at 1250. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like kind of when you throw those in. And you kind of want, that's where weird stuff can grow.

If you think about it, it's you can grow really weird mushrooms if the temperature's just right and there's not too much light. There's not too much light. There's not too much heat. I mean, when the show used to begin, you have to have the big sketch

and you look at the show now and it's what's their take on trump this week and muller and what's their take on kavanaugh and who's the big star they've flown in from la to and there's a lot of heat there and it doesn't always it's not always conducive to like the most fun comedy, you know? And then if you look at a little later on, there's less pressure and you got a weird sketch and it's not really about anything, but it- I'm trying to think some of the- Like Jack Handy, for example, is one of my all-time favorite SNL writers.

And he would, I mean, he wrote Toonsis the Cat, but he also wrote these, he'd have these great, all of us would, couldn't wait to hear his sketches read at Read Thru because, you know, he'd write, he'd have such great ideas, like James Bond getting captured by the villain who has a giant lair in the volcano, but the lair isn't finished yet.

And he's like, Mr. Bond, I didn't think you'd be here for six months. You know, sorry, Blofeld, but you know, and he's like, well, anyway, over there is gonna be a, it's going to be a shark tank where I would lower you into a shark tank. It's not there yet, but imagine, and it was, I get, I'm one of the workmen in the background

on that sketch. You were in a couple ones. Yeah, they used to throw me out there. Jim, I made Jim Downey laugh, and he used to throw me into stuff every now and then. And it was not, I wasn't, I didn't think I should be a Saturday Night Live cast member. That was not something that I aspired to be. I didn't think I was a a Saturday Night Live cast member. That was not something that I aspired to be.

I didn't think I was a Dana Carvey or a Mike Myers. I wasn't that. I knew what I wasn't. Yeah. But I knew I could make people laugh, but it had to be in my persona. Do you know what I mean? It couldn't-

Did you latch onto a star? Because sometimes the writers latch onto the one star and they write a lot of stuff. Or was it more democratic back then? I don't think we did that. I don't think I did that. I mean, there's obviously people, you know, you'd obviously plug Phil into everything. I don't think I latched on. I remember I worked on a Sprockets once that worked out well with Mike Myers. I had an idea for one and I went to him. And so there were individual people that I would think, wait, I think I got something for you.

I would say that 80% of what I wrote was not cast dependent. You know, it was just a weird idea that I thought, okay. You know, it wasn't like, oh, this cast member has to do this it was a really fun time also like because it was all these kids that grew up watching the same shows in the 70s and 80s so snl would have like the partridge family joke or the brady bunch joke or whatever yeah it was like oh i get that oh you know now everything's so splintered i think it would be

harder to have here's a weird yes that's a i mean when you look at that's actually the because i promise you and i watched 80 of the same shows yes we're probably like nine and i don't think nine-year-olds could say that no you can't say that now they can the one thing that's unifying the most young people now is probably video games meaning yes fortnight you know if you're talking to a bunch of, I have a 13-year-old son, and he would, if he and all of his friends were together, I think I could reference The Simpsons and Fortnite, and they would know what I'm talking about.

After that, it's a crapshoot. And what's really interesting is, if you think about the way we grew up, we did, there's certain reference points, Starsky and Hutch, or like you said, any of those shows from 70s, 60s, 70s, we can reference that and everyone knows the reference. Today, you can be in a room with a bunch of people

who are your demographic. They went, and even some of them went to school with you. They're your friends. And you're talking about what's on TV today. You'll each list 15 different shows and there will be maybe one overlap between two of you. Do you know what I mean?

I think The Office has gotten to that point to some degree with the under 30 people. Yes. Well, now it's being rewatched. The Netflix. Yes. Netflix has done it with that and with Friends. And more and more with Parks and Rec too.

Parks and Rec. I think The Good Place is starting to head that way too, but it seems like they're all rewatching because those 22 minute comedies are so easy to just, you bang out a season in like four hours, six hours. I think what's really smart is stuff without a laugh track, stuff that's not shot before a studio audience. Something happened culturally,

and it might be reality television, but people like things that have that documentary look and feel. Yep. And so when you look at a sitcom now where someone makes an entrance and there's applause or there's laughter, you know, and then they leave, it immediately feels fake and hokey.

And I think there's a whole generation that looks at that and thinks, what the fuck is this? I felt like Shanling was the first one who kind of flipped that when he did his Showtime show. Yeah. And have the fake applause for everybody that walked in. And it was the first time I was like, oh, he's making fun of. Yes.

Because, you know, you watch those old Good Times episodes now or said like, they'll be on some random channel. And the audience was so involved in the show. Yeah. And you also watch things like Happy Days from 1978 or 1979. Fonzie makes an entrance. First of all, Happy Days- Wild applause.

Happy Days is interesting because the first season is single camera and actually kind of cool. And there's no studio one. It looks like American graffiti. Yeah, and it's actually very good. Then it switches, Happy Days switches to, I think in the second season,

it switches to, it's shot for a live audience. People make an entrance and the crowd goes crazy and they have to wait. So Fonzie comes in and he's mad because he just found out someone stole his motorcycle and he comes in and he's mad. And everyone's like someone stole his motorcycle and he comes in and he's mad. And everyone's like, woo. And you see Henry Winkler having to wait

for like five minutes and still pretend to be mad while he's acknowledging. And you're like, this is weird. You look at it now and it feels fake. I remember that happened to Seinfeld with Kramer for like a season. Yeah. Where he, every time he walked into Jerry's apartment,

the crowd would applaud. I think they told the crowd not to applaud. Yeah, do the same thing you'd be like jerry and then yes you have to wait three seconds and everyone has to just wait on their line yeah i i think you're right though about the single camera but that's why i think the office reaction to it those those um i think the a show like The Office is going to, the reason it's so relevant to, I mean, my son and daughter have watched every single episode of The Office, every single episode.

Yeah. And that's their sense of humor. But when you think about it, that show when it started on NBC was a very different look and feel to everything that had been a juggernaut for NBC before that, which is Friends and, you know, Frasier and, you know. The one set where most things happened. I love the way, I used to love the way people are forced to sit on sitcoms. Like in the long line, that's not a circle?

Yes, and I used to love on Murphy Brown. Murphy Brown was never my show. I was, I mean, it's just, it was never my cup of tea necessarily. But on Murphy Brown, they would set up that these are the most powerful people in show business and journalism, Candace Bergen and her, that they're like 60 minutes

and they know Henry Kissinger and they also know Al Haig and they're, oh, she just had lunch with Nelson Mandela and then it's time for them to have lunch. And they all crowd around one half of a small circular table because they have to, because it's a sitcom and you have to sit. Doesn't matter. You know, no, Murphy Brown would be in her office or she'd be in like a nice cafeteria and that, no, everyone gets half a table and cheat out or we're not going to see you.

There is the flip side of that. There's a Netflix movie that had Lucy Liu and somebody else in it that, you know, with these Netflix movies, like everyone's ends up seeing them, but it was about setting up Taye Diggs and Lucy Liu, these two people that work together. But Lucy Liu ran like a sports and pop culture website

that isn't much different than The Ringer. Yeah. But had this just amazing office, But Lucy Liu ran like a sports and pop culture website. That isn't much different than The Ringer. Yeah. But had this just amazing office, like this $100 million office. And she had an assistant. And I was like, whoa, did they ever go visit anybody's office before they came up with this?

No. I like when they do that. To be fair, you have pretty much the same setup. I came in here and it's just just the amount of marble in your entryway is absolutely stunning. About a big lemonade vat. Yeah. Hey, let's take a quick break. If you need advice that helps you get stuff done, but is also perfect when you want to catch up on some fun.

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Back to Conan O'Brien. Greg Daniels? Yeah. When did you guys stop being partners? We stopped. He wanted to, he was really interested in writing a different format. I think I liked, and I've always liked the shorter format. I've always liked, you know, sketches. I've always liked that short format and the most realistic show. I mean, the only half hour show I could really imagine writing for was The Simpsons. Like that was my, which when you think about it

is so many jokes and so many same sort of energy. And then there's this three act structure, but it's very, you know, as half hours go, it was the one that I could work on. But Greg always was interested in that other form. So he left Serenite Live. He wanted to go out to LA and live there. And he was in a serious relationship with his now wife.

And so he wanted to leave and go to LA. So she ruined things for you. She was the Yoko. Yeah. I never knew that. Yeah. No, but he wanted,

he wanted to go out there. It actually worked out. You think about it. I mean, I would say it worked out for both. It worked out for both of us. And we're really good friends and talk to each other all the time and, and hang out.

And it's nice, it's actually, I think if we were, when you're working with someone, there's an intensity to it that I think I can relax now in Better With Greg that we are not dependent on each other. Yeah. In those early years, it was really intense. And we were friends, but I actually- Is it intense because of the financial implications

or the career implications? We were both ambitious guys. We were ambitious and you think, are we going to make it? Is this going to work? I mean, there was, I was really, I put a lot of pressure on myself, but I was really, I put a lot of pressure on myself, but I was really worried about my career

through most of the 80s and into the 90s. Always worried, like, am I gonna make it? Is this really gonna work? Am I gonna be able to achieve this idea I have that's very vaguely formed in the back of my head of what I could do. And then once I hit the late night show in 93, that's just two years of sheer try to stay alive. You know, and then, and then, you know, I don't think people really believe in this vision that that we collectively have and i don't think i don't know

i think i'm starting to relax now yeah yeah 55 years old so yeah well i think you i watched it because i was there for kimmel's first season where you're on you know you don't know what the show is yet you're basically just trying to survive day after day after day and hope you don't get canceled. But they also don't have anyone to replace you with. Yep. So at some point, everybody just kind of stares at each other and goes, all right, I guess, yeah, good luck.

And then, but you're just getting reps. And then after, I could see it with him after about nine months. I was like, oh, he's starting to get this now. Yeah. But how long did it take for you? I think about a week ago it clicked. To be honest with you. I think, you know, man, I don't think there was any one moment.

I think there were, I just started to notice that our audiences were getting better and better. Like livelier. Livelier, but also I noticed that people were coming to the show because they had seen it and liked it. Ooh.

You know, and that there were young people and they had made, I've always had really creative fans and they're very good artists and they made jackets for themselves that had stuff from our show on it. Yeah. They were coming.

And I remember that we started in September and I think by the summer I noticed, wait, these crowds are, they're really getting hot and they know me now and they know my rhythm. And so I always thought the trick of these things, people always think that it's the host who figured out how to do the job. I think it's a two-way street.

I think it's the host who figured out how to do the job. I think it's a two-way street. I think it's the host has to figure out how to be the best version of themselves, who they already are. But I think the audience then has to get used to their rhythm. And I have a very particular kind of thing I think is funny and a very particular sort of rhythm that doesn't look right to people right

away in 93, but then started to look, you know, I think people started to get it. And that was always my, when I showed up at a big school, like I went to public schools and Brookline, Mass, I was never the funny guy right away. I would show up. I got a weird name. I got the weird hair. I'm this tall, skinny guy. What's his deal?

I'm kind of quiet. And it took time. And that was always the case with me. And I thought it was the same thing with getting on television. I'm new. I'm gonna get picked on. You know?

We've found Letterman too. Yeah. Someone, some, yeah, exactly. I, as I've always said many times,

I would not have liked me had I not been me because, you know, I was mad at NBC about the Letterman thing. So then they get a complete unknown and who is this guy?

So I understood the hostility. I also knew this is my one chance. Was there hostility though? I can't even remember at this point. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Oh yeah. Cause it felt like there was also,

you had the Letterman versus Leno was starting at that point. No, that was, I mean, you didn't feel like you were buried a little bit on the side? No, there was, there was a period of intense, I mean, I don't want to go back. Yeah. a little bit on the side? No, there was a period of intense... Like, fuck this guy? I don't want to go back. Yeah. Oh, fuck this guy?

Oh, yeah. I mean, there was, you know... Because there were more people with less channels back then. So the amount of people probably watching at 1230 has to be three times as many as probably watching now, right?

No, more people watched me at 1230 and 93 than watched the Super Bowl now. That's a true fact. Seriously? No, that's not. I wouldn't believe that. Glad I had you there for a second.

Yeah, at the time I was watched by 65 million people a night. Jesus. But no, it was, it was, no, that was back in the days where it'd be like, oh, you know, only 4 million people watched us last night. It's just late night is melting ice flows. We'll all be standing on ice cubes soon. But-

The cool thing is if you get through that, you get through anything. Yeah. But there was, I mean, there was a famous review in the Washington Post that more or less said, if I died, it would be a good thing. I remember that. But then he later changed his mind, which was very nice, actually. He didn't

have to do that. It was one of the great white 80s in the history of journalism. It was Tom Shales, right? Yeah. And he wrote this thing where he said, okay, I was wrong. I was really mad about Letterman. And that was- I think he was really mad about Letterman and this is, you know, and that was- I think he was really mad about Letterman. Like this is about your phone. Well, but I understood it and I understand it today. And I understand that, you know, there was hostility. Obviously I felt it. I'm very thin skinned.

And I really thought, you know, I just, I walked around thinking everybody hates me for about a solid year and a half. And then that started to slowly. What was the moment that, that you started to realize other than that the audiences were changing. I just, you know, cause you're so, when you're doing that week after week, you're just in it. Well, that's the same. It's like you're on like a hamster wheel. Yeah, that's the thing is that I think the thing

that saves you in that situation is you have, you don't have time to get in your head. Yeah. It's like, you know, you're on a baseball team. You've got to play so many games. And so you can commit three errors in one game and be booed off the field, but you're back there the next day.

Right, trying to go through for four. You just have to keep, you know, it's the repetition. It's the cockpit time over and over and over again. And then at a certain point, that protects you in a way from, I didn't have time to read everything. I didn't have time to know that, I think Playboy magazine that year,

that in their list of stuff for the year said, you know, you know, worst decision ever, you know, hiring Conan to replace David Letterman, you know, like that idiot Conan, you know, that was actually in a magazine and I saw it and I thought, oh, there's a centerfold in here somewhere. Is there nudity in this magazine too yeah

it was the one issue with no nudity because they wanted to focus more on how I sucked but I think the the one thing

that was good for you like in retrospect was you know and I think Letterman had this too Letterman when his show was on those first couple years

he had this whole new generation of people that were coming up, right? So his staple guest were always Seinfeld and Leno and Michael Keaton and Tom Hanks. And he was tapping into this new generation. And then you had a lot of the same thing because you had all the S&O people you worked with,

but then you had this new generation of comics that were coming up and you kind of had your people after a while. No, it's really, it is really fun that we quickly just, you know, got these people and I think- You and Arsenio, I think, both of you guys. Again, when you think Arsenio, you think Conan.

No, we were very fortunate because you come up with your group and people that, you share their style of comedy. And then you do all this. I was talking to Will Ferrell the other day and we were just, I couldn't remember half the things he was bringing up. He was bringing up, you remember the time I came on your show and I, you know,

I had a gun and we kept it quiet for half the interview, but then I leaned forward and you could see that I had a gun. And then you and I had this whole thing worked out. And I was like, I don't remember. Oh God. We did so much aggressively weird stuff and it was just like-minded, you know? And then we became,

I remember there were people who only wanted to come on the show if they could pretend that they needed dialysis halfway through, you know? And you'd be like, oh, can't I just talk to you? Like there's some people I just wanted to talk to. Yeah. No, man.

This would be better. I wanted, I've seen other people do this. And it was sometimes it was people who were, maybe comedy wasn't their forte. Yeah. They'd seen other people do it. They're like, no, you know, I want to pretend, I want to do a conceptual thing.

Really be Arthur. I don't think you should do this. I threw her under the bus. She's coming in right now, actually. Yeah, exactly. Her ghost. Well, I remember like, what was it? Like 03, 04, it just seemed like you jumped the level with that show.

And then it became like the, where's he going? What's next for him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All these networks are courting him and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. And it seemed like it was fast but it really wasn't fast it wasn't

it's fast to other people yeah you know do you have kids I do I have 13 and a 10 okay so we're in the same boat yeah

I have a 13 and a 15 but similar situation you notice when other people come to your house they're like oh my god you're kids yeah wow you're huge

that's not how you feel because you see them every day. Yeah. So I'm always like, what are you talking about? They're the same. They're like, no, they're not, man. This is Tommy Chong visiting me, by the way. Hey man. Hey Dave. And so they come by and they're blown away, but you're there. So I'm there for every second. So nothing felt, I've had people say to me wow 25 years on the air that must just seem like it just blew by no it fucking didn't yeah because I was there for every second of it sweating it

so no it feels like 75 years it feels like 130 years yeah it feels like yeah you know how's your life different if you go to Fox in 04 um are we sure a late night show could have worked on Fox So, you know, and so- How's your life different if you go to Fox in 04? Are we sure a late night show could have worked on Fox? I was not, that was, you know, when I was,

that was a big serious offer to go to Fox. And I thought about it really seriously. And I swear to God, the biggest reason I wanted to stay was it really haunted me the way Dave left NBC. And I wanted to be connected to my work. I didn't want to be separated from my work. I was really- Oh, like your 11 years of library stuff? Yes, exactly.

I wanted to be connected and I didn't want to leave NBC. And so I remember thinking, I'll just stay. You know, I don't know- How much was the Tonight Show part of that? Just like the- At that time, not. The lure of it? At that time, I didn't think that was a possibility

because that was not, you know, that was kind of floated as a possibility, but I remember thinking, I'm not sure. But I wasn't that interested. Ultimately, and I don't regret, actually, I don't regret anything. I don't, I think I made the right call at the time, which was, let's just stay here.

And I ended up doing, what, four or five, five more years of the late night show at NBC, which I loved. So, you know, I ultimately, you know, think that was going to Fox like 10 years in. I don't know. Wouldn't have felt right to me. Didn't feel right then.

It doesn't feel right now. And I think there's a reason they really have never had a Monday through Friday, 11 o'clock show. Right. Yeah. It's funny because, you know, I've obviously had a couple of things too that people could say, would you do that over again? I always feel like it's part of the journey. You know, some things work out some ways, some things work out in other ways.

You call your addiction to heroin? That part I would do over again, but some of the other ones. That was a huge mistake. Where does the late night format go now? What happens to it? First of all, I'll preface by saying, I have opinions, but nobody knows anything.

Yeah, no, I'm not saying you would. I don't want to pretend to be the oracle that knows, but I- But you're watching how your kids consume media. Yes. Well, I definitely, for myself personally, wanted to blow things up. I wanted to blow things up when I realized that I was killing time on the air. Yeah. That I was doing an hour a night after 25 years and hurrying it up with the first guest

so I can get to the second guest, so I can get to the, you know, musical group, so I can, or the third guest. And I thought this is not, this is not what these shows should be anymore. I really don't believe that. I know how people consume my work now. And the good news, I mean, there's good and bad with all of it. There's a lot that's changed, but no late night show has the command of the field the way Dave did in, you know, his late night show period or in his early CBS show period or the way Johnny did. It's just not going to happen again. There's going to be fads and trends.

They last about sometimes, you know, but there's so many of these shows that that's the bad news if you're a late night host. The good news is that if you've got something good, a lot of people see it. Yeah. And they see it again and again and again. And so the good stuff is in a way almost more potent than it ever was. But I want to make sure that the chasm between what I'm doing online and what I'm doing on the linear show isn't so wide.

Because it feels like there's the linear show and then there's the stuff that happens online. I want to see if I can pull them together closer so that- Well, podcasts have to be a part of that. Well, that's why, I mean- Yeah. So right now the idea is, right now I'm doing, we took a hiatus so I could do a tour. I'm doing a tour where I can go to cities. I just finished doing a bunch of cities back east.

I leave tomorrow and I do Atlanta and I do Nashville. I love live audiences. Love it. That's one of my favorite things. And I love playing in these theaters and I'm touring with these really hilarious standups. And I go out first, I do half an hour, then they each do about 15 minutes. Then I do Q and A at the end, which gets really wild and it's fun. I live for that. And then we have a digital team with me. They record a lot of that stuff. We chop it up.

We're putting it out there. And I'm hoping that this- Why can't that just be your late night show where you just travel to every city 250 times a year and you're just on the road? My wife would leave me pretty quickly. Other than that- No, actually my wife might prefer it.

But I do think what I'm looking for, what I'm looking for is a, you know, the booking of celebrities can so often drive this tempo of these late night shows. And I still want to talk to celebrities and I still want to do that, but I want to make sure that I have maximum freedom. I'm just, I'm being a dick.

I'm kind of saying I want to do it exactly the way I want to do it because I've been doing it a really long time. So what I'd like to do now is exactly what I want to do. And I don't want, I want to make no concessions. It sounds like you just need to do a podcast occasionally with tours. Well, occasionally tours. Hey,

let's take a quick break to talk about G suite. It's a suite of cloud-based productivity tools that includes a Gmail doc, slide sheets, and drive. I use all of those things though. These tools improve your work life, both in terms of your experience and the outputs you create. Hence their new campaign,

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You think so? 3AM Eating with Nephew Kyle. Could happen. Be a short one. Be a Could happen. Be a short one. Just be I eat Chinese food, then I throw up. Check out, keep an eye out for that. 3am meeting with Nephew Kyle, a podcast that has not been greenlit yet, but Villains with Shea Serrano has. Subscribe now

on Apple, on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Back to Conan O'Brien. Yeah, I'm doing a podcast. Conan O'Brien needs a friend.'m doing a podcast. Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. That drops the 19th, November. And- Yeah, I promise you, you're going to love it.

Because- I've been doing it. I can tell from your show, like there were moments where you'd be like, oh, this should just keep going, but it couldn't. And it's like, all right, let's start a commercial. Then it's kind of the moment's over. Yeah. And what I've done about, we banked a bunch

and I've absolutely loved them. It's a great, and also I have to say, I mean, coming in today and this isn't work. I mean, to me, this is a really great conversation that I'm enjoying.

It's nice to hang out with you and talk about this stuff. So it doesn't feel to me like, oh boy, you know, had to go grind that out. Well, part of it is knowing who would make for a good podcast though, which you let, which I kind of learned the hard way over the course of 12 years. But when you're on a bad podcast, it's like a bad date. Well, the other thing, have you noticed that when you don't know, sometimes I've been on a podcast and there's no end point. It just could go on forever.

You know, even a bad date, there's a natural, well, they brought the check. And so peck on the cheek and I'm going to get my Uber and I'll see you later. But when a podcast, when someone wants to really go deep,

you're going deep here with Conan and it's been, and you're like, wait a minute, I think it's been five hours. And they're like, now we're going to do some improv. You know,

I'm looking. Seven more. You feel like you're in a burning building and you'd go out through the window if you could. So, you know. What about you and Greg Daniels

working together again? One more time? Yeah, well, we did. We worked together on a Daniels working together again? One more time? Yeah, well, we did. We worked together on a show we really loved. Like writing a movie? Movie? No, I've never, I don't think I could write a movie. You've never did that?

Never wrote a movie. I never wrote a movie. What was the show you worked on that you loved? Well, we worked on a show that was on TBS. We initially called People of Earth that we really liked and people liked it, but then we had trouble keeping the cast. The cast kept having other things

they needed to do, but it was a show we did together that we didn't create it, but Greg was the showrunner and it was my production company. It was just fun working with each other again. Yeah. It was a good time.

I'm really jealous of the writing partner thing. Cause I really feel like I just wish I had, you know, you need luck, right? Like what if you don't meet Greg Daniels? Do you have a writing partner at that point? No,

I wasn't. It has to be like the fit, right? I was not someone who was going to have, I didn't even think about having a writing partner until I met Greg. And we met late in school. We met, we didn't really get to know each other until senior year. Because you fill in the blanks for each other a little bit.

Yeah, and it was interesting. We did compliment each other really well. But also when you're starting your career and you're 21 and you're leaving and you're going to LA and all you've ever known is Boston. You need somebody else. I mean, all I knew is Brookline Boston. That's it for 21 years.

And then you get on a cheap airline flight and you go to Los Angeles and you land here and you've got to make it in this weird business. Doing it with someone, a friend who's also an East Coast person who you can share it with, that was huge. I mean, I- I wish I had met somebody like that. I've always, Koppelman and Levine, the guys who do Billions, those guys have been together for like 25 years, like a married couple, but they just work really well together. And I went and I watched them on the set and yeah you know they're just on the same page and i think

it's pretty rare i can also see how it would go badly it could go badly yeah especially if one person thinks yeah you know the other or whatever i can hold out i think you're gonna meet a guy i really do i hope so man this is why i keep talking about it. You just keep bringing it up. Somebody out there like, hey, Simmons. I wish I had a guy in my life. I didn't even think of the fact that you were Brooklyn and then Cambridge

and then you came to LA. That's dramatic. That was it. I went from zero to, I mean, because you're, where are you from? I was initially Chestnut Hill.

Chestnut Hill. Yeah. I used to go to that mall, you know that big mall in Chestnut Hill? Of course. That's where I always thought I'd meet my girlfriend when I was in high school and had bad skin. Yeah. I used to go to that mall, you know that big mall in Chestnut Hill? Of course. That's where I always thought I'd meet my girlfriend when I was in high school and had bad skin.

Yeah. And guess what? It didn't happen. Did you ever go to the dump and look for Playboys behind the Chestnut Hill mall? My brother Neil used to go to the dump with his friend John Little and they would throw old TVs off the top of a mound

and watch the picture tubes explode. That was my- There's a lot of great stuff for that dump. There's a lot. Man, that dump. Yeah. Yeah. My parents got divorced.

I was there through seventh grade and then my dad stayed, but I moved with my mom to Connecticut. So I was basically back and forth the next four years, Stanford. Okay. And so I was like, I still felt like I lived in Boston, but I was really not there nearly as much as I wanted to be. And plus the sports was like- Well, then it gets really screwed up because you're amongst, in Connecticut, it's weird

because- Oh, you're like, you're not in New York. You don't know, like I've seen stores. I'll go into a store in Connecticut, like in sort of the Litchfield area. Yeah. And it's selling Yankee hats Yankee caps but then you drive two more miles and you're in a store

and they're only selling Red Sox hats and you think this is weird this is like living in Maryland during the Civil War I don't know are you for the North or for the South do you know what I mean I have no idea it's very strange and then Boston Do you know what I mean? I have no idea. It's very strange.

And then Boston, as you know, is it's so kind of distinct. And then Connecticut is not distinct. So I was just there. I was just in Boston and the intensity of- Did you go for the baseball or something else? Well, I was there. I did the tour. I was doing two shows at the Wilbur Theater.

And then I went and I hung out with my folks, but I was noticing everyone in Boston wears a Red Sox cap and it's so- It's amazing. What's so funny to me is they wear it like, you know I root for the Red Sox. Like, you don't need to tell us, we know. Do you know what I mean?

We're on Newbury Street and your name is Sully. I get it, you don't need the Red Sox hat, but all my brothers wear Red Sox caps all the time. And it's like, they should just put them on squirrels in Boston. It's like being in a gang. Yeah. It's like our gang.

I went back for the two World Series games and it's just, it was the best of Boston. It was just people showing up super early. Everyone's got drinks. And I was sitting near the, between the third base and left field. We were right on the wall. You know, they have the outfield umpires for the World Series.

So the poor guy's like 10 feet away. And you know, the Boston people, they got to start talking to him. He's like, hey, blue. You know, just for nine innings. The poor guy's like, God damn it. That's what he hears. Short it. That's what he hears. Short straw. That's what he hears in his sleep.

So I could only go to one World Series game. Yeah. Because I was, I've been working so much, but there was one game and traveling and there was one game I could go to. Not the 18 inning game. No, there was one game I could go to and I knew there was one game that I had

that Turner gave me tickets for. Oh. Game five. Oh. So in LA, and I knew there was one game that I had that Turner gave me tickets for. Oh. Game five. Oh. So in LA, and I didn't know, is there going to be a game five? What's going to happen? Turns out game five. So I take my son and we go there and we're both wearing Red Sox hats and jackets. I've got this great jacket I got a long time ago. That's like a vintage Ted Williams era. Ooh. And I have a Ted Williams story after this I want time ago that's like a vintage Ted Williams era. Ooh. And I have a Ted Williams story after this

I want to tell you, but like a Ted Williams era baseball, a recreation of that jacket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm watching the game with my son and then we get to the last two innings and it becomes clear that the Dodgers are going to lose and we're in Dodger Stadium.

I was in there too. Yeah. The Red Sox fans started moving up. I was one of them. We had really good seats and then we were like, screw it. I said, come with me, boy, this is how it's done. Cause all the other fans left. Yeah, and everyone, they were like, Conan!

Red Sox fans let me take, and it was near the back behind home plate, just like for the last inning. But this is the difference between LA and Boston. There's a lot of differences, but I'm there. And Dodgers fans start to realize it's not gonna happen for them. So they stand up.

These are people with like their faces painted blue. Yeah. And they have Dodgers shirt, everything. The hat, everything. They stand up, they turn, they saw me and recognize me and they saw my Red Sox stuff and they have Dodgers shirt, everything, the hat, everything. They stand up, they turn, they saw me and recognize me and they saw my Red Sox stuff and they'd say, well, Conan, it's not gonna work out for us this year,

but you guys had the better team. Congratulations. And then they shook my hand and then they'd be like, better luck next year. I mean, well, we'll see about next year. And then the next person would go up. Well, Conan, Dodgers fan all my life, you know. Lost my wife this year to cancer.

And sure, a dying wish was that they'd win the series. But it didn't happen. Oh, well, Boston's the better team. Good day to you, sir. And I remember thinking if this rule was reversed. It wouldn't go as well. And I was at Fenway. Yeah.

And the Dodgers were about to clinch at Fenway. Yeah. And a Boston fan saw a Dodgers fan, he'd pull his heart out through his chest and eat it in front of his child. Do you know what I mean? It was just this funny, I couldn't relate to it. You think you're better than me now?

You think you're better than me? I'll fucking throw a battery up your ass! Well, that didn't work out for us. You clearly had the better team. I really admire Cora, and that Mookie is incredible. Well, we'll see what happens

next year. Good day to you, Conan. It's like, what kind of sports fans are you? I have perspective. Life is long. Wow. Dodger fans. They're on 30 years now.

Yeah. The Boston fans, this is like the, it's this run that has nothing in common with how any of us grew up. Yep. No, no, no. It's just a lot of winning and it doesn't make sense and it feels just surreal and I don't know how to react to it.

And also, the old Red Sox teams, they were so haunted by their curse, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. It was in their heads. These new teams, since 04, they think they have as much right to win as anybody. Yeah.

Which is a completely different mindset. Yeah. And, you know, this team, even, you know, even when they lose an 18 inning game, you thought like, oh, that's gonna, that's gonna take the bone marrow out of them. That's good. They're going to have a hard time bouncing back from this.

They're like, oh no, no, no, we're still going to win. Yeah, they had like a team meeting after the 18 inning game and they were like, all right, we all good? Yeah. Let's do it. We'll get them back tomorrow. Yeah. And that's just wrong.

If that had happened in our childhood, it would have, they probably would have had to shut down the city for like a week. Yeah. I had, I wanted, there's one story I was driving over here today and I was like, I got to tell you this story,

which is I have one picture. That's not true. I have a couple of pictures on my wall in my study from my late night show. Yeah. I've got, you know, okay, me with Obama. That's a picture. I've got me with Dave.

You and Melania. In 94. Yeah, me and Melania Trump. It's been nine times she's been on. And then I have me with Ted Williams. Ted Williams came on. The splinter. He came on my show and it reminds me of this time,

senior year in college, it's spring. And I decide, you know, I was a good kid, but I decide, screw it, I'm getting out of here. I'm gonna play hooky with some friends of mine who had already graduated. And one of them's Jeff Martin, who was working as a sports writer in Boston and went on to, he's a great comedy writer.

He and a couple of his friends were gonna go down to Florida to watch the Red Sox spring training. And I'm at school and he said, come on, just, it was like Ferris Bueller, like just skip, just skip and fly down. So I did, I'd never done anything like that before, but I just left school. I blew off classes.

I blew off everything. I flew down and we had a blast. We drove around in one car. We only ate fast food. We played mini golf and we- That sounds like Florida. Yeah, and we watched the Red Sox. So we're there watching the Red Sox

at their spring training camp. And I look over and there was a young prospect named Sam Horn at the time. Yeah. Who could hit the ball like a mile when he could hit it. I don't think it ever panned out for him, but Sam Horn was just amazing. And he was talking to someone

and looked like he was getting batting tips. And I'm looking, I'm like, who's he talking to? And I realize it's Ted Williams. Ted Williams was there and he was the hitting coach and he's talking to Sam Horn and this is 1985, April of 85. So I'm like, I wanna hear what he's saying to Sam. That's Ted Williams. I gotta find out what he's telling,

greatest hitter of all time. What's he telling Sam Horn? So I make my way, there's this long chain link fence and I try to sneak all the way around the chain link fence so I can, and then I get right up and I'm as close to Ted Williams as I am to you. And he's talking to Sam Horn and it looks like an intense conversation and I eavesdrop.

And Ted Williams is bitching to Sam Horn because he had to take his grandchild the night before to see the movie, The Last Starfighter. And Ted Williams was like, here I am thinking I'm going to get this profound, oh, we swing under the ball and up at, you know, and up to the right and then, you know, whatever. And he's like, God damn it, they're out in space

and there's God damn aliens. And then they're on earth and I didn't know what the god damn fucking thing was all about and I couldn't believe it and then I thought to myself I would love it if Ted Williams cranky legendary old Ted Williams reviewed movies

I would just you know like alright today's movie Ted is whatever we're gonna we're gonna look at I would just, you know, like, you know, all right, today's movie, Ted, is whatever. We're going to look at Harry Met Sally. We're going to look at Harry Met Sally. Well, God damn it. I tried to watch this and she's what she's doing in that restaurant is vulgar. And God damn it.

Why? All right. Well, join us next week. Unbelievable. When we talk about like water for chocolate. Oh, God damn it. Foreign film. God damn.

Poor Sam Horan. Probably thought he was getting a tip. Yeah. Instead he didn't get to hear about the last time. Instead he just heard. That's amazing. I thought when you started telling that story, I thought you were going to tell the story that you were there.

Sam Horan hit this legendary spring training home run. And I was at the game, but we left the inning before because my buddy Gus had to go. And then we found out he hit this home run into the football stadium. And I'm still mad about it like 31 years later. When I was there, he did smash a windshield on a car in the parking lot. I did see that. I didn't, but yeah. I guess his thing was when he did see that. I didn't, but yeah. I guess his thing was when he did hit it,

it was like the natural. It just wouldn't stop and lights would explode. Did you ever get used to LA? Other than the fact that the Dodger fans congratulate you when you win the World Series? You know, I'm not built genetically to live out here. It's, you know, I am really genetically engineered to live like in a peat bog in Northern Ireland.

So what I'm never going to be used to, and I don't mean when I say in a peat bog, I mean literally in the mud covered in moist turf. That's where I should be. I don't, I'm not supposed to be here. What I do like, because I lived for years and years and years between Saturday Night Live and The Late Night Show,

I did 20 years in Manhattan. I love Manhattan, but it never felt like home because when you grow up in Boston, it's, I was scared in New York when I was a kid. Yeah. And I was told, all my friends said, if you go to like at the height of the, in the 70s, the height of that great rivalry

and Carlton Fisk and Thurman Munson, I was told that if you wore a Red Sox cap at Yankee Stadium, you'd be killed. Yeah, they'd stab you to death. They would stab you to death and that the police wouldn't do anything. And I believed it, because that's how intense it was.

I really believed that. I don't know if that was necessarily untrue advice either. Right. I think they would make some effort to solve the crime, but eventually, yeah, they'd make a show of trying to solve the crime, but that'd be a good cold case show where you just solve Boston fans

that were murdered at Yankee Stadium. And it's so clear who did it, but they're like, well, I guess we'll never know. No, no, no. It's really clear. It's the guy covered in blood right there. It's that guy over there in the Yankees hat who's covered in blood. Well, another case, it will go unsolved. But yeah, that was, I was, I loved, I loved Boston. I mean, I loved New York and I loved living there,

but it never felt like, well, this will be my home because I thought eventually they'll find out I'm a Sox fan and murder me. I went a step further. I just, I could never have lived there at any point. I just, being around the Yankee hats, I feel the same way when I go to a Laker game and I'm around all the jerseys.

Like I actually feel like uncomfortable. It's unsettling to be in that mix. My son was in a league. We came out here and he was in a league where, you know, playing with these other kids and they just, it was kind of random, which, and, you know, the teams were, you know, the Pistons.

Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, the Lakers, the Celtics, the Knicks, and it just random. And my son was like seven and he was in this league and I would go to his games. And the team that he was assigned to was based on like, literally where you lived, the luck of the draw, we were the Lakers.

So I would go and my son was, you know, seven years old and wearing a Lakers jersey and he'd get on the court with his other friends. And I kind of learned like at first it was jarring and I'd have to take a picture of him and send it home. And my brothers would give me shit about it. Photoshop the jersey. Yeah, exactly.

I should have photoshopped it. But I got over it and I just enjoyed watching my son, you know, kind of try to play basketball at seven years old or whatever. And then one day Mark Wahlberg shows up because his son's in the same league and he's talking to me and he's like, what the fuck you doing, man? He's really mad. And I's like, what the fuck are you doing, man?

He's really mad. And I was like, well, you know, this is where his friends are on this team. He's like, oh fuck, my son. No, we like, he like, we moved to where my son would be on the bus. He just would not. I forget what he did. He did some extraordinary thing.

He didn't literally move, but he took extraordinary measures. He just pulled some Mark Wahlberg shit. He did some extraordinary thing. He didn't literally move, but he took extraordinary measures. He just pulled some Mark Wahlberg shit. He pulled some Mark Wahlberg shit to make sure that his son was wearing a Celtics uniform and he could not believe that I was letting my son

wear a Lakers uniform. This was the original plot for Mile 22. Yes. Then they flipped it. They flipped it. Yeah. Yeah, my son was a junior Laker one year

and I didn't feel good about it, but he was six. Like at that point. No, I didn't feel good about it, but he was six. Like at that point- No, I didn't feel good about it. You're just happy they're not still pooping on themselves at age six. Yes, exactly. Half of them, they get the ball

and they just sit on it and they think it's something to rest on. And I, but I realized like the level of, okay, this is the difference between us. I will accept, my son wants to be on a team with his friends. He can wear a Lakers uniform. You probably contacted the commissioner

of the local league. I think you probably threatened him with some of you and your friends from Somerville came by and threatened him with the leg of a chair. And now he's wearing a Celtics uniform. I think Mark Wahlberg, he wakes up at 2.30. Yeah.

He says his prayers. He does his workout routine. He has eggs and then he just threatens the commissioner of whatever league. Yeah, whatever league. That's what's in there. It's in the itinerary. I'm always jealous of those people that get up.

Like Bob Iger, they always said he got up at four. That's stupid. Gets up at four and does the treadmill. I don't know, how do you do that? I love sleeping. Yeah, it's also a mistake. It's gonna be, let's just see how long they live. I swear to God, sleep is more important.

I swear to God, sleep is more. And when people tell me that they, I get three hours of sleep and then I get up and I have a whey protein shake and I run 65 miles and then I pour lava up my ass. I just think, okay, enjoy that. Our time here on this earth is very short and you're fucking it up. Might be shorter than you think. Exactly. Conan. Yes. This was a pleasure. It's not, this is great. I didn't want to keep you for seven hours. This is right around the time. I usually go around 80,

80 minutes. This is good. You can always come back. You should just, you know, I go 80 minutes. I'm excited. That should be,

that should be your line in a bar. I just went, strong 80 minutes. I just did 80, I went 80 minutes strong. With who? Conan O'Brien.

Okay. Well, that's your thing. Yeah. No, it's just, I O'Brien. Okay, well. 80 straight. That's your thing, yeah. No, it's just. I'm excited to listen to your podcast. Thank you. And you know what?

Congrats on this one. Thank you. I swear to God, they told me, they said there's literally like two podcasts you should do if you want to get the word out on your podcast. Oh, that's nice. And you were one of them. And I was happy because I've listened to yours.

And I was like, oh, yeah, I'd love to talk to him. And we can. Well, while we're passing around compliments, I would be remiss if I said the people here, you had a big impact on a lot of them. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, especially the show, the NBC show from the early days. Yeah, yeah. Pre-internet. Yeah.

Once the internet came in, it kind of screwed things up in a lot of different ways. But that sweet spot of like 89 to 96. Sweet time, yeah. The stuff that was impactful really was really impactful. No, it's not. It's a nice, I'm very- And then it just kept going. I'm very grateful.

Yeah, it's a cool time. My word is I'm grateful. And I say this all the time to people that got in around the time I did. I'm like, wow, we just, the fact that I got to make comedy with so many amazing people, just dumb luck, you know? And just, I'm really blessed.

It's a nice thing. What's Smigel's next act? He's unstoppable. He's a nice thing. What's Smigel's next act? He is unstoppable. He's an unstoppable force. He's one of my favorite email people. Yeah, yeah. He'll send me just these random crazy NBA emails or- He is, you know, Robert, his next, you know, first of all, he just contacted me.

I've been touring, so we're not doing shows right now. We're going back in January. And he said, he's like, I have a good idea for Triumph, but you guys aren't on the air. And I was like, well, you know, see if like someone else wants to do it, you know, just. And so he went and did it. Yeah, he did it last week.

He did it for Colbert. And it was really funny. And I was thinking, yeah, Robert is the most prolific comedy writer I've ever known. And I've known them all. He has, he's an endless fountain of ideas. He'll have five ideas at one time. Yeah.

And so his burden is just figuring out usually which idea to follow. That is not most people in comedy's problem. Most people are trying to come up with one good idea. He's usually got like, yeah, I've got these nine ideas. And he'll write me these really long emails describing each one in detail. And I'm like, I like the first, do that one.

Yeah, but listen to the second. I like that one too, do one of those two. Here's the third. I would do one of those three. Wait, there's eight more. Yeah. Yeah, he, well, oh, this is a good last question. What sketch at SNL were you the most jealous of

that somebody else came up with? Wow, that's a really good one. Uh, man, man, it would probably be a Jack Handy sketch just because his mind was so different. Yeah. And I'd think, how did you think of that? And I don't know that it's one sketch that Jack Handy wrote because he wrote so many,

but he would just think of an idea like Johnny Acid, which was, you know, he was sort of making fun of in the 50s and 60s on TV, cowboys had special skills. There was the rifle man who was really good with a rifle, you know, and then there's a guy who was really good with a whip. And then there was a guy who was really good with a knife. And then there was a guy who was really good with a knife. Then there was a guy who was really, and so he came up with Johnny Acid and he carried vials of acid and he'd throw acid at people. And it just bummed everyone.

Everyone in the saloon would be like, someone would be like, you better be moving on. I think you should be moving on. And Johnny Acid would throw acid at him and the guy would scream as his face burned and everyone there would be like, not cool, man, that was bad. Bummed everyone out.

And there was a song about Johnny Acid. And I thought, shit, I wish I had thought of that. So probably Jack Handy. That was, there was a lot of songs with the sketches back then. Yeah. The little like quick snappy. I remember we just thought we had to.

We wrote a sketch for Tom Hanks called Mr. Short Term Memory. Oh snappy. I remember we just thought we had to. We wrote a sketch for Tom Hanks called Mr. Short-Term Memory. Oh yeah. And I remembered Robert saying, well, we need a song for it. And so we wrote, you know, I think it was Mr. Short-Term Memory. He shouldn't have sat under that pear tree.

Now he has no memory. He'll never know, but he loves, you'll love him so, cause he's Mr. Short-Term Memory. You know, why? Why did everything need a song? But we just- Pat was like that too. It's time for androgyny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there was like this five years where there was, but it was always good. There was a lot of game show. Not always good. Game show sketches too. Look again. That's the wonderful thing about-

Look back under that hood. The wonderful thing about being a fan of something is that your mind does its own editing. What do people mention more to you, Simpsons or Saturday Night Live? Must be Simpsons, right? It's Simpsons. Yeah.

Yeah, Simpsons is just, when I tour, there's a religion and it's worldwide and they know the episodes. That's why I didn't even want to bring it up to you. And they know stuff that I don't know because guess what? I stopped writing there 25 years ago. And you were only there for like two, three years, right? want to bring it up and they know and they know stuff that i don't know because guess what i stopped writing there 25 years ago and you were only there for like two three years i was there

yeah a little over two seasons and again i was there at a nice sweet time it was like the first famous season yeah that you were there and i loved it but i don't people will ask me trivia and i'm like i don't know what you're talking about i'm rediscovering The Simpsons through my son. My son loves The Simpsons and he's watching all of them and I'm watching them with him. That's our thing. They don't get to watch- Did you get to do the whole,

I wrote on this one, son. You know what? So that kind of cool. It's the first time I've seen him show a glimmer of respect for the old man. Be impressed at all by you. We watched one of my episodes, I think it was Homer Goes to College.

And it said, it came up written by Conan O'Brien, and he happened to see that, and he just like looked over at me. I was like, yep, the old man. I could just see a little moment of him thinking, my dad might've been worth something once, you know? Then it was a minute later, he didn't care about me again.

My son was impressed when we were in Orlando in August and Triple H came up to me with the big handshake oh okay and he was like oh

I was like alright that's the only time I guess I'm gonna impress you and then later on found out you played Triple H yeah I did it wasn't even Triple H it was a guy who

it was three people who wear a costume and play Triple H at parties good luck with everything thanks for coming on hey thanks so much I'll come back I'll shake your hand it was three people who wear a costume and play Triple H at parties. Good luck with everything. Thanks for coming on. I'll come back.

I'll shake your hand. Even though no one's seeing it, we just shook hands. Thank you. That was awesome. All right. Take care. All right.

Thanks so much to Conan. Thanks to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. That is one of my favorite URLs. They are a presenting sponsor. If you want to learn more about them, go to that URL. Thanks to FanDuel, where I'm going to win money this weekend. It's happening. I have the best FanDuel single entry lineup, super flex lineup that I've ever put out. I'll read it to you on Sunday night when I do the pod with Sal.

You'll be amazed that I didn't win. You can win. They have tons of ways to play. Gridiron pick them contest, pick winners, no spreads, 10K split amongst the top pickers, or just play daily fantasy. Do whatever you want. I've tried other DFS sites. If you're not a fantasy expert, FanDuel is clearly the place to play. New users get a $5 bonus when they make the first deposit. Come play with me at fanduel.com slash BS. And by the way, if you want to buy some Ringer merch for the holidays,

go to theringer.com slash shop. T-shirts, sweatshirts, hats, stickers, you name it. It's all there. T-shirts of some of your favorite shows on the Ringer Podcast Network. T-shirts of this show. I need that Pearl Jam one.

Yeah. It's a good one. There's a new Pearl Jam one, right? It says, But First Pearl Jam. You can buy that. Kyle likes that one. Kyle, I'm going to get that one for you for Christmas. Easy. Check it off the list. All right. Enjoy the weekend. We are back Sunday night. I will be coming right from the Survivor Series with my lunatic son.

The odds of us coming up with a parent corner during that Survivor Series is off the board in Vegas. Until then, enjoy the weekend. We'll see you next time.