The Bill Simmons Podcast - Cousins/Jets Momentum, Cowboys Fever, a Red Sox Reset, and Million Dollar Picks With Bryan Curtis and Kevin Hench

Episode Date: September 16, 2023

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons quickly reacts to Eagles-Vikings before making his Million-Dollar Picks for NFL Week 2 (2:38). Then, Bill is joined by The Ringer’s editor-at-large, Bryan Curtis, to discuss good feelings surrounding the Dallas Cowboys, media notes from Week 1, and more (22:13). Finally, Bill talks with distressed Red Sox fan Kevin Hench after the news of GM Chaim Bloom being fired (1:07:58). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Bryan Curtis and Kevin Hench Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, million-dollar picks, football, Cowboys, media, baseball, lots of stuff next. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest-rated sportsbook is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million-dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag

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Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality,

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We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm on a bunch of pop culture podcasts this week. There are rewatchables on Monday night. We did Black Hat. Also was on The Big Picture. We did a big Denzel Washington movie draft that got way too competitive. And then on Wednesday night, Amanda Dobbins and I on the Prestige TV podcast, we broke down the first two episodes of season three of The Morning Show. The most ridiculous show on television, not just this year, but every year it's on. It just wins the title automatically. If they had a ridiculous show category at the Emmys, they wouldn't even have any of their nominees. I mean, maybe Winning Time would get nominated. I don't know. But Morning Show just clears it out. What a batshit,

crazy, ridiculous show. Wow. It's really like they created podcasting so we could just break down the morning show. That's really, I think, the real reason behind podcasting in general. Coming up on this podcast, Million Dollar Picks and a little Vikes Eagles at the top. And then editor-at-large at The Ringer,

Brian Curtis, who is also a giant Cowboys fan, comes on and talk about the Cowboys. Could this be the year? Keep saying that, but could this be the year? And we talk some NFL stuff. We talked some sports media stuff. We talked about documentaries and just all the stuff that happens when Brian Curtis comes on. Oh, we talked about Joe Buck

and Troy Aikman as well, who had hit a really interesting milestone as a combo. So that happened. And then Kevin Hench, my buddy, the Red Sox fired their GM today and we couldn't resist spending 20 minutes recapping one of the four-year, oddest, strangest four-year runs the Red Sox have ever had. And we're still in the middle of it. And I still don't understand

why Mookie Betts is not on the team. But also like, man, since the 2018 World Series, the Red Sox have just been a hot dumpster fire. And I say that knowing that they almost made the World Series two years ago. But when you look at everything that happened, wow. So Hench comes on to talk about that. It is all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

All right, I'm taping this part of the podcast. It is 11.31 East Coast time. East Coast Bill is here. East Coast Bill is in Boston. I was visiting my daughter and doing some other stuff. And Thursday Night Football came on. I thought it would be a great idea to do the top segment after Eagles-Vikings. East Coast Bill fell asleep at halftime.

It was a new record for me. I guess I'm old. I have another birthday coming up this week. This is why I live on the West Coast, because I talk about sports for a living. And East Coast Bill gets a little sleepy when the game is kind of boring and plodding along. So East Coast Bill missed some time, had to catch up,

had to do a little rewind. Fortunately, there's so many commercials. I was able to still watch anything, but the Eagles beat the Vikings. They're now 2-0 on the season. And I would say it's an uninspiring 2-0. They probably shouldn't have covered against the Pats. They could have lost.

This game, they win, they don't cover. I guess on the good side, the DeAndre Swift, they traded like a 15th round pick in 2038 for him. This game, they win, they don't cover. I guess on the good side, the DeAndre Swift, they traded like a 15th round pick in 2038 for him. And this little way they put together their offense where they load up on wide receivers, they hit the jackpot with Hurts, and then they just say, you know what? You know what we're going to do?

Just grab running backs because there's 98 of them every year. We're just going to grab two and pay nothing for them. So offensively, they look great. Defensively, you saw it last week with the Pats. The Pats were able to throw it on them. Mack almost had 300 yards in the last three quarters of that game. This game, Kirk Cousins over and over again, heroically going for the cover, finally gets it. The Vikings cover, they don't win. Home team's now five and 12 against the

spread this season. Underdogs are 10 and seven against the spread. But for the most part, not allowed to report. The Eagles just, they messed around in the first quarter and then said, screw it, and ran the ball down Minnesota's throat. I was thinking Eagles-Cowboys, if you're going to make a combined over-under for wins for them, and I gave you 26, would you go over-under 26 wins combined for the two teams? They're 3-0 right now. I would probably go over, especially when you look at the NFC and you think Philly, Dallas, San Francisco. Lock those three down. I like Green Bay, Detroit, maybe New Orleans, Atlanta, and maybe that's the seven for the playoffs.

And then you have Tampa Bay and the Rams. Who knows what was real and what wasn't real. Tampa Bay beat Minnesota by three in week one. We're like, oh, Tampa Bay, that's interesting. But now Minnesota's 0-2, maybe that doesn't even matter. Rams, who knows? I mean, they just have so few good players that the moment two of them get hurt, it feels like their free fall will happen. So the NFC is already kind of uninteresting, I guess is my bigger point. Unless the Giants can rally, and who knows after the 40-0 debacle last week, they're playing Arizona this week,

so they'll look out of that. But for the most part, it seems like three good teams, maybe the Packers, maybe the Lions, maybe the Saints, and then we're going to have a really bad seventh seed. So if you're Minnesota and you're looking at 31 of 270 teams started 0-2 and made the playoffs since 1990. 31 out of 270.

I can't do math, but that's not good. If you're Minnesota, at what point do you consider trading Cousins? Cousins was all over the place on the internet this week as a possible Rodgers replacement. He makes $35 million this year. That's it. The Jets, I think, could do some chicanery if they wanted to.

They have this thing where the Packers, it's a conditional, I think, second. That turns into a first, but the Packers would have to waive the right for the condition. Clearly, Rodgers is going to play 70% of the plays, but still, they'd have to figure out some way. But if you're the Jets, could you somehow trade for Cousins and save your season? We're going to find out a lot about the Jets this week against

Dallas. If they get annihilated and they're one-on-one for the season, but Dallas annihilates them and they have to look at their offense and go, all right, we have a really good team. What are we going to do? Is it Jacoby Brissett or do we swing bang and try to get Cousins for a year? Cousins has over 700 yards and six TDs in the first two weeks. He's been a fantasy God. I don't know how that plays out. I wish it was like basketball where I could just put stuff in the trade machine and see if it's going to work. For some reason, we made football trades more complicated than basically anything on the earth.

I have no idea how the Jets would trade for Cousins, how it would work, what the mechanics of it would be. What's he worth? Is he worth a first rounder for one year? Is he worth a third rounder? You just never know. Again, DeAndre Swift went for a 15th rounder in 2038. Cousins, I have my eye on because if you're Minnesota, you're not good. You were completely lucky last year to go 13 and four or whatever it was. Now that's evened out

and maybe you start looking around and going, all right, let's just, let's pack in this year. I don't know what would have to happen, what number they would have to get to. Would they have to be one and four, one and five, one and six? But Cousins to the Jets, it's a fun talk radio topic.

At least we're not doing talk radio here. We're doing sleepy sports podcasting. But Cousins to the Jets has always felt right. It's always felt kind of perfect. He always has felt like a jet waiting to happen at some point in his career. The Jets fans listening to this right now are like how can he keep doing this to us we just had the Rodgers thing we had Zach Wilson now you're going to throw Cousins at us

but again Cousins a little bit of a turnaround he was in that Netflix show he's kind of the big winner of quarterbacks with Mariota being the big loser but I feel like the tide's turning on Cousins even primetime Kirk today always a disaster gets the cover who knows Put him in New York. We'll see. Philly's got, they're just basically have to figure out what their team is. They've already

had a bunch of injuries and they even had a little AJ Brown, Jalen Hurts, who knows what happened on the sidelines there, but didn't look awesome. But they have two months here to figure out their team. They're a big stretch. Week nine, Sunday, Dallas. That's home in Philly. Bi-week, week 11 at Kansas City on a Monday night. Week 12, Buffalo home. Week 13, San Francisco home. And week 14 at Dallas. So again, Dallas at KC, Buffalo, San Francisco at Dallas. And that's going to be the five-game stretch that determines are we a one seed? Are we a two seed? What is our season going to look like? And they just have to get there.

They have to stay healthy and they have to get to that point. So not a lot of lessons from Philly, Minnesota. Do I regret staying up? Although I guess I didn't stay up because I got a nice little nap in at halftime. Let's do million- dollar picks. Last week, we won $630,000. We went four and one on straight up bets and one and oh on our goofy bet, which was the Luca Brazzi gimmick that we started this year for the fishiest bet of the week. We grabbed the Cardinals plus seven. We hit everything except Pittsburgh. And whether we trust Pittsburgh again this week, we're about to find out, but it's

time. Let's do it. The million dollar picks for week two. We're going to start in Cincinnati, my friends. Cincinnati looked awful last week. They got their asses kicked. Joe Burrow looked bad. Cleveland's defense ran amok. And everybody who follows football could see this coming because there's nothing more predictable than an offense looking terrible in week one when the quarterback hasn't basically practiced at all. So it was just one of those games. It was a game from hell. I don't think this Bengals team starting out 0-2 is in the cards for me because they're too talented. I felt like a rocky September was coming, but the 0-2 start, losing a home game against Baltimore. I've been watching this line all week. It was a three and a half. I was ready to take Cincy three and a half against Baltimore, who is banged up to smithereens. I mean, this week, they have their two best offensive linemen aren't practicing.

They're already missing Humphrey. They're missing Williams in the secondary, too, who is also really good. They've already, you know, having the injury year from hell, like it's edging toward there. And for Cincinnati, the worry would be, well, their offense looked terrible this week. You got to see them play a decent week before you take them, right?

I think their defense can do enough in this game with the banged up Baltimore offensive line. And I still like the Bengals defense. I thought they looked pretty good last week against the Browns in general. Great defensive coordinator, a lot of talent on that end. And this just feels like a don't ask the offense to do a lot kind of game. Let's let our defense win. Let's let our home field advantage win. And it's a three point line, which is, which is perfect. Baltimore super banged up me. You know, this isn't, this isn't the week. This isn't the make or break week. They lose Dobbins last week for the year. They have a bunch of receivers that they're basically trying to get some chemistry with, with Lamar, who he has not played with for a long, long time. I like the Bengals minus three.

That's our first pick. We're putting 200,000 on all of these like we did last week. So Bengals minus three. That's our first pick. We're putting 200,000 on all of these like we did last week. So Bengals minus three against the Ravens. Second one, the Titans are home for the LA Chargers who had one of the worst coaching strategies I've seen in a while last week against Miami. Everything they did defensively against Miami was idiotic. It was like they didn't realize Tyreek Hill could run a 3-7-40. The way they rushed Tua was bizarre. Not double teaming Tyreek was bizarre. Miami ran all over them. It's not like Miami is the greatest running team of all time. And then they botched the end of the game drive. And I think the numbers after they won week one in 2021, and since then, I think they're one game over 500 for the last two plus years or the last three plus years. Sorry. This line to me reflects, first of all, way too much confidence in the Chargers going

West Coast, East Coast and playing a Sunday early afternoon East Coast game. And it doesn't reflect the spot the Titans are in right now. The Titans have lost our last eight games in a row. There's real urgency here to figure out what are we? What are we doing? They had a bunch of injuries last year. It was explainable. Week one, they lose to a Saints team that I think is pretty good.

They're coming up later. And I don't know. Everybody's kind of out on them. For them to be home underdogs by three to the Chargers, to me, that's totally out of whack. They have a much better coach. They're much better in close games. And it's a kitchen sink game for them. If they lose this game, now you have to figure out what do we do with Tannehill, who was awful last week. This is now the biggest game of his post-prime career. If Tannehill stinks this week against a Chargers defense that honestly is not good, that's it. It's probably a wrap for him. You either have to trade for somebody or it's Malik Willis time or whatever, or it's Will Levis time, whatever I have to do. I just think this is a must for the Titans. For the Chargers, I never believed in them to begin with.

So I'm getting three. Even if the Chargers win, maybe they win by a field goal and it's a push, but I think the Titans are better than the Chargers. So that's our second one, Titans plus three. Third one, Jags. This line moved to plus three and a half in Kansas City because Chris Jones came back from his weird holdout

where he held out and he missed game one and they lost. And then somehow he lost money, but now he's back. Good holdout. I think this is an either team can win game. I was impressed by the Jags in that Colts game down the stretch because I think the Colts actually played pretty well. And the Jags just took care of business down the stretch. They're good offensively. There's cheap touchdown potential with them. There's a scenario here where they could be down 10, a little like the Vikings tonight, and get a little backdoor cover action. They could

potentially win the game. And I don't think the home field advantage in KC matters that much. They played them last year in KC and they almost beat the Mahomes. That was the game where Mahomes got hurt, but still. Having had success against them in the playoffs and going toe to toe with them, they're not going to be like, oh my God, we're playing the Chiefs. And I just don't believe in the Chiefs receivers at all. Kelsey's going to play, but he's not a hundred percent. And I just don't believe in the Chiefs receivers at all. Kelsey's going to play, but he's not 100%. And I think the Jags can keep it close and possibly win. So I'm going to grab the three and a half on that one. Jags plus three and a half. Another thing I love about that, everybody's on the Chiefs.

All the money is on the Chiefs, like everything. Everyone's like Chiefs, Chiefs, Chiefs. No way they're going to go 2-0. Kelsey's back. Jones is back. Here we go. Let's roll, baby. But I don't think it's the same Chiefs team as last year. And I think this one's going to be close. I feel like I might've been wrong on the

Jags and there's potential I was wrong on the Lions as well. I was right about a lot of teams heading into this season I feel good about, but Jags, their offense just might be good. And the Lions, just because the NFC is so mediocre, that's a playoff team. And I think I missed that one. So anyway, Jags plus three and a half. That's our third bet. These are my favorite two. These next two.

Saints in Carolina, minus three. The Saints are good. They barely beat Tennessee last week, but I think Tennessee is good. And I think the Saints are good. And I mentioned this on Sunday's pod. That was a really physical game. Tennessee's defense did a nice job against New Orleans. It ended up being like a 16-15 final.

But I think the Saints, their offense is better than it showed last week. The Panthers, the big thing, like, first of all, that's like a 35-minute team. Last 25 minutes of the game, they fall apart. They lost J.C. Horn. He has a hamstring. It looks like he's going on the IR. That was their best cornerback. So their defense, which was their pass rush and their secondary is probably the key to their defense. So he's out great for the saints. And I just think they're way better. So saints minus three to me

feels like a gift. I would grab that now. I think that line's going to go up. I think Carolina's terrible. I do not like Frank Reich as we've covered here. Saints minus three. Last but not least, the Pats are plus three at home on Sunday night against Miami. The only reason to be scared of this is the injuries on the Pats offensive line. Two concussions, the two guards who didn't play last week, who looks like they might play this week. But other than that, there's been a lot of talk this week about how that was a really good loss by the Pats against Eagles. You saw the Eagles. I mean, their offense is a juggernaut. The Pats defense did a great job against them last week. They were able to rush the passer. They were able to move the ball offensively. And I just think the Pats are good. Now Miami's coming off this Chargers game

where they ran amok, partly because the Chargers had such a bizarre strategy. I think New England's going to really rough this Miami team up. They're going to double Tyreek and they're going to be able to run the ball in Miami. Miami had to give up almost 200 yards to Eckler. And by the way, I forgot to mention that Titans Chargers,

Eckler's hurt and might not play in that game. I think the Pats are as good as Miami and I don't think they're going to go into, this is their second home game in a row. It's a great spot for them. They usually beat Miami in New England. And I believe in this Pats team as a playoff team. So this is it. We're going to find out. Worst case scenario, we're still getting the plus three. Pats plus three against Miami is the last big one. So we got 200K on Bengals minus three, Titans plus three, Jags plus three and a half, Saints minus three, Pats plus three. And then our Luka Brasi. This game seems fishy.

What's going on here? Somebody wrapped some fish in a bulletproof vest. We hit it last week with the cards plus seven. They almost won. This week it's the Steelers who people really liked as a possible AFC sleeper and they got annihilated by the Niners. And I get it.

It was terrible, but the Niners are also really, really good and they're completely healthy. And now the Steelers are underdogs at home against the Browns, a team that they've just kicked the shit out of for two-plus decades. The Browns are favored because they beat this Bengals team last week that didn't have Joe Burrow basically until the week of the season.

All the money is on the Browns. I don't know why the Browns are favored. I don't understand this line at all. And everything about this reeks. Something's fishy about this. We're going to grab the Steelers plus two and a half. We're going to put 50K on that. So I know that the Steelers look bad last week.

I know that the Browns defense looks awesome, but it's still the Browns. And I still need to see it. And I don't, there's something about this line. It's so weird that we have to put a token 50K on it.

So final, final picks. 200K on Bengals minus three, Titans plus three, Jags plus three and a half, Saints minus three, Pats plus three. And then we're going to put

a little 50K Luca Brazzi flyer on the Steelers plus two and a half. We are up $630,000 for the season. Stay tuned, by the way, over the weekend, we're going to do a little same game parlay boost that FanDuel is going to help us out with. And I'm going to be tweeting that one as well. I love when FanDuel boosts my bets. It makes me feel like I'm special. They seem to think Kay Adams is super special. They boost all of her bets. Do they boost my bets? Well, they did this week. I really appreciate it, FanDuel. Anyway, those are the million-dollar picks for week two. Coming up right after this break, Brian Curtis. Get ready for the NFL season

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and current form of payment. Commercial use excluded. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home

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He is also a diehard Dallas Cowboys fan. It has never, ever, ever felt better, at least since the Emmett era, than it does right now after week one for your America's team, the Dallas Cowboys. How are we feeling? Top five weekend for me football-wise, because don't forget, Texas beat Alabama on Saturday night. Oh, right. So there was that high.

And then Sunday felt like a bonus game and then it's 40 to nothing. So I'm just walking around the house, kind of doing a Conor McGregor walk. My wife and kids were looking at me just like, what is wrong with you? They saw a side of you that never expected. What conferences Texas said now now are they in like the acc but i i don't have my scorecard handy which one are they in you'll appreciate this last year in the big 12 before they go to the sec so everybody's in conspiracy mode conspiracy bill mode if you will yeah that the refs of the Big 12 are going to cost them a game as a

parting gift. Oh, did that happen? We're only two games in. It hasn't happened yet. Okay. So what conference are you headed toward? The SEC. Oh, that makes perfect sense.

Yeah. I guess. Sure. I was in Fort Worth thinking of Gainesville and Oxford and Tuscaloosa. That's going to be a harder conference though, from what I understand about college football. You're kind of with the true big boys now. Jesus. That's why Saturday was so big because they go into Alabama, they win the game. It's like, maybe Texas belongs here.

What do you want to happen with college football before we get to the Cowboys? What's your dream? Are you talking about in terms of how the conferences are set up? Do you just want Premier League where it's 22 teams? They just throw out all the conferences and it's just the elite of the elite

and then it's everybody else? I kind of like the last thing we had where you had some semi-super conferences. I like Texas in the big 12 just fine. I was, I was very happy with that, but I think we're going to actually get to a pretty decent place now where you still have most of the conferences except the PAC 12 and you're going to have an expanded playoff, which is going to be really, really fun. And the first time college football has ever had a big post season, that's actually a playoff rather than just a series of bowl games. I think that'll be pretty

good. It's pretty good for everyone, but the people that are actually playing college football. Oregon State and Washington State, don't tell them. It's such a commitment. I mean, my son's playing like freaking high school football, and it starts on June 20th and goes all the way through to the end of October and potentially November. And it's like, even that feels like an incredible amount of time. You're basically doubling that with college football. If you have the expanded playoffs, you could have situations where these guys are starting to practice when? Late June, something like that. And they're going all the

way through to February. That's insane. You're basically professional athletes at this point. Although I guess they are professional athletes, so maybe it works out. They are now. And yeah, I used to have 11 games in college football season and then we went to 12 and then we went to conference championship games and it expanded. But 11 was so nice because you finish like late November, early December. And then, you know, NFL just kind of kicked in. You waited for the bowl games. Wasn't bad.

You know who hasn't figured out the NESCAC conference? Division III. It's like nine football games, no playoffs. You show up, you start practicing at the end of August, and by November 7th, it's over. You're done. I was not aware of that. Yeah, it's great. That's where football needs to over. You're done. I was not aware of that. Yeah, that's great.

That's where football needs to go. You're Cowboys. You know, Jerry, who we've all made fun of and everyone has pointed out his lack of success really since the Barry Switzer Super Bowl season. And I was the one, I think, who was comparing them to the Kardashians where it's this famous family

that everybody talks about, but nobody knows what the actual talent is. But yet they've landed all this talent. And Parsons is, if he's not the best defensive player, he's one of the best defensive players. This defense looked absolutely terrifying last week. There's enough offense to go around. And it's just hard to pick knits with this team unless you could do the whole, well, we got to see Dak, look at his playoff record or the McCarthy piece of it. But for the most part, it feels like there's, I said this Sunday night, it feels like there's three really, really, really superb teams. I'm including Philly and maybe they won't even get there. And then it's a major drop-off.

But I don't remember Dallas being in this spot before this early. I'll tell you what feels different for a Jerry-built team is that Jerry loved famous football players who were often not the best football players. The Joey Galloway, Alvin Harper. Zeke Elliott. Right. Jalen Smith. I mean, you know, we could go on, there would be these guys that have these enormous profiles, but we're not actually great at their jobs anymore. This team beyond Micah Parsons and Dak, who you mentioned is built with Tony Pollard and Terrence Steele, their right tackle and Tyler Smith, the guy that

drafted in the first round last year. They have really good safeties. It's just like a well-built football team. I thought they played free agency really well by getting Stephon Gilmore and Brandon Cooks for mid-round picks. These guys are just good football players. So it just feels very, very different than other Cowboy teams. And that's what makes me think that they could be really good this year. It's one of those, it's just more fun when they're involved.

Of course. You know, the NBA has a few teams like that too. Like you can talk about, oh, it's so nice to have Milwaukee in there and stuff. But when it's like the Celtics and the Lakers and the Sixers, now we're bringing in 50 plus years of stuff in a bunch of cases. The thing with the Cowboys, like they were talking about this Giants-Cowboys rivalry. You know, they played that up on the week one.

And who is the Cowboys rival? Because you could say it's the Giants, but you know, other than the LT era, like what were the great Cowboys-Giants games? It was like they were never really good at the same times. And then I would say the Eagles, same thing, like mate, you'd go back to the nineties, but for the most part, I don't really feel like they overlap. Who do you consider the big Dallas rabble? Well, I'd say the Eagles felt at least during the regular season last year, like the one that was the nastiest that felt like this is a huge game. I don't want to

lose. I won't feel good about losing this under any circumstances. And then I think the other one is the 49ers just because they beat them in the playoffs the last two years. And that feels like it's heated up a little bit again and was really the true rival of the eighties. And then later in the nineties. I agree with you. I think it's, I think it's the niners. I'm with you because they've had the most memorable games against the Niners. And the other one we got denied this week is Aaron Rodgers versus the Cowboys. I mean, that was an absolute murder of the Cowboys year after year after year. You remember that one pass in the playoffs near the Cowboys with the number one seed?

Not going to happen. That was supposed to be this week. Prime game on CBS. but we'll see. I want to talk about Rogers Night in one second, so hold that one. If you had to guess how this Dallas season plays out from a media coverage, fan base, hysteria, dominant storyline standpoint, it feels like they have a chance to swallow up this season if they can keep it going like they did. Yeah, especially because the Jets content feels like it's about to tail off.

That's gone. Yeah, we're done with the Jets. Mahomes isn't going to be that as fun as usual to watch because he doesn't have the same weapons. Miami's kind of interesting if they can keep two on the field just because of how much fun they are.

But it feels like it's a Dallas-San Francisco collision coming. I accidentally turned on Greeny yesterday, Bill, when I was driving around the car. Was he hosting his own show or no? He was actually on. So that was the first surprise. Amazing. And he's reading these emails. You had a one in nine chance of hearing him host his own show.

I can't believe it. He's reading these emails and it's like, could the Jets win a Super Bowl based on their defense like the 85 Bears? I'm like, guys, the drawbridge has gone up on Jets content. We're done. We spent the whole preseason on that. It's time to move on. We're all good. Thanks very much. What did you take from a media standpoint from Monday night? Other than that, it was one of the more riveting TV nights for football that we've had in a while. When the game began, I thought, oh my God, Joe and Troy just got the same horrible hand that Kevin Burkhart and Greg Olson got in the NFC championship game where quarterback goes out

early. We know how the game's going to end, and you basically have to fill three hours. Got any notes on the backup safety, Joe? Got something you can help us occupy time with? And Zach Wilson content. And then Josh Wilson, I mean, Josh Allen, excuse me, let the Jets back into the game. It was horrible. And so you're watching and you're going,

oh, this is going to be an all-time Monday night game. It's actually going to be had this really weird rollercoaster ride and all the way to overtime. It actually turned out to be a great game. I'd like to declare, I'm going to, can I put my old guy hat on? Is it an old guy hat? What is it? An old guy jacket?

People should know you're wearing a hat backwards right now. I am because I don't want the shadow over my head. That's the only reason. Also, I'm in my mid-50s. I'd like to place a moratorium on people declaring something to be the greatest game ever, the greatest whatever ever, when it's something like Monday Night Football that's been around since 1970. Let's do a little legwork first. Let's just give it a whirl. Let's just go through, maybe make a top 12 list first, go through. You can Google, do some bleacher report. Somebody at some point in the last 20 years probably wrote a 10 greatest

Monday Night Football games ever, figure out which ones add, and then really try to put it in some context. Because I'm positive we've had some awesome games. I mean, one of the great ones was the Deshaun Jackson when he dropped the ball at the one yard line, which was the greatest moment in fantasy football history and gambling history, where it ended up not being a touchdown and that turned into a whole thing. But I mean, there's just every year, there's a great one. There was the Dan Marino fake spike just got just going through, like we could go through every year.

We'd find something fun. The Vinatieri when, when, uh, the, I think it was the Jets or the Colts, whoever they're playing left the field and Vinatieri ran in the two point for the cover. We've every year, there's one awesome Monday night football game. This turned out to be the awesome one this year, but I old guy, Bill wants everybody to stop stuff like that. The only declaration I was going to make on Monday night is if the jets had lost that game,

if it had turned out to be a terrible game with Zach Wilson, like we thought it would, would that have been one of the worst back-to-back nights in New York stadium history? 40 to nothing Sunday night in the rain, Rogers Achilles Monday night. And I tweeted that and somebody immediately wrote back, hey, don't forget Yankee Stadium 2004. I was like, oh yeah. So that's number one, but probably on the list somewhere yeah especially when you know the Jets hype

I personally didn't think Hard Knocks was still alive in this way because it was like what year 20 and it's the same show every year and it's the same narrator it's done the same way and it has the same beats I kind of stopped watching it I only watched the first Rogers one

because it was such a Rogers infomercial. I was like, I'm good. But then I saw this interview with Rogers, I think with Aaron Andrews on Sunday. It was the rare Sunday morning interview that I actually thought was pretty interesting. And Rogers said in complete conviction, and I think he really meant it,

that was the first time I've ever seen myself on TV where it was me. Where what you saw in Hard Knocks, that's what I'm like. That's the relationship with my teammates. They just captured it. And I was so happy that people finally got to see that. He said something like that. And I was thinking, now I'm even more dubious that this is the show because it's a reality show. What have we ever trusted? You know, you're on a show like that with cameras pointed at you and you're presenting a version of yourself

that you think people want to see, but is it really you? So it made me, made him even more mysterious to me. And then it didn't matter because he got hurt in 36 hours. Yeah. It shouldn't ideally be like a Netflix doc that you produced. Marcus Mariotta is like, they finally saw the real me when I disappeared from the last two episodes of the show after I got pinched. Yeah. On the one hand, we lose Roger's content and we lose Roger's Jets content. On the one hand we lose Rogers content and we lose Rogers jets content. On the other hand, even in those four plays, he looked pretty old and the play he got hurt on was a play. I don't feel like he would have gotten hurt on 10 years ago where he just seemed like he clumsily got tackled and his leg got stuck and the jets trying to compete for the rest

of the year with Zach Wilson and QB TBD. But with the team they have, I actually think it's going to be pretty compelling. I don't, it's not quite as compelling as Rogers going against Dallas this weekend, but it'll still be fun. It's going to be fun to watch Dallas chasing Zach Wilson around as he does the thing where he rolls out to the right,

runs out of sideline and chucks it to the, to the whatever. There's also a chance Dallas could have, what, 48 fantasy points again tonight or on Sunday night, Monday night? Good. Yeah. And you saw how many national TV games the Jets have coming up? Yeah.

So we're going to get, these are Russell Wilson levels, national TV exposure, meaning Broncos Russ. So I guess we're going to get to find out. I hope it's fun. Zion and the Pelicans was the worst with that. Because they loaded, I think it was last year or two years ago. I think it was last year. They just loaded up there like Zion.

That's the fucking guy right there. And they just loaded it all over the place. And then it was like, here's Brandon Ingram, Jose Alvarado. Well, what if Zion's not here? You know who's found shoonus, anybody? What other NFL storylines stood out to you from a media watcher standpoint?

Can I tell you my favorite thing we do NFL week one? Yeah. Overreaction Monday. So all of us in podcast world, sports writing world, we don't do hot takes. That's something that Skip and Stephen A do on TV. We don't do that. We don't judge from too little data, make proclamations. So what we do is we do the same take, but we label it an overreaction. It's a wink, wink meta take, but it's still an

overreaction. Yeah. It's a hot take in air quotes. The Cowboys, best team in the league. Whoa, whoa. Number one in my power rankings. And meanwhile, I watched Skip and Stephen A and they're literally having the same discussion. But we sports writers, right? We feel the shame. Oh, we don't, we don't, we're not part of that economy. So we just labeled it. Yes. We just labeled it overreactions and then we get to have all the same fun. None of the shame.

It's really smart. See, we, we continue to just get smarter as a species in the, in the talking, in the talking space. How about, uh,

I talked about it on Sunday with Sal a little bit and he wasn't as excited about it as I was, but CBS unleashing the six man pregame show and halftime show, more importantly, with no time at all to talk. I just, I'm always like, just, just so, uh, I don't know, just titillated when this happens. When, when the amount of money that goes into a decision like that, it's not lightly. It's not like they're like, hey, JJ, you want to just hop on the set? Like they've negotiated with his agent. They've had meetings. They put real thought into it. And the conclusion is six guys. It'll be fine.

It'll work. They had this produced opening too, where Nate Burleson's knocking on the door of his dressing room and then bringing him to the set and everybody's hugging him. Like he had to get five hugs before we could start the pregame show. It's a five hug show now. Here's the weirdest thing. I heard you mentioned this Sunday night. I've been thinking about this ever since. People on sports television don't talk to each other anymore. No. They sit next to each other and they talk in order, but they never address what the last guy said. If you notice this, CBS, Phil Simms goes, okay, here's my 22nd point. And then they go to JJ and

he has a 22nd point about the same game that does not mention what Phil Simms just said. And then they go to Nate Burleson. He has a totally different 22nd point. And it just goes like that over and over again. And there's go to Nate Burleson. He has a totally different 22nd point. And it just goes like that over and over again. And there's never a conversation about anything. And I sit there speaking of like an old man moment. I sit there watching. I'm like, I'm sorry. I feel like I'm watching one of the kids cartoons at my house. I'm like, I have no idea anything that just happened. If you just asked me to repeat one point that was made today, I wouldn't be able to do it because it's so strange and frenetic and overproduced. You know what it is? It's basically

a Zoom telecast, but they're all sitting next to each other. It's what would happen if they were all on six Zoom screens, but then they kind of turn to each other. There's real reasons for this. They want to make sure nobody goes too long. They want to make sure, I'm just, I'm giving you the mechanics. Well, because they have three,

three minutes and 20 seconds, right? To get through the six guys. So it's like, we're going to go in order and we're going to go around and everyone will have their 22nd point and then the next guy will go.

We won't have the host be like, and JJ, what do you think? And they somehow think this is going to work. But what's crazy, and we always say this, is everyone points to the Barclays show. And they're like, man, the Barclays show, greatest studio show ever. And then nobody emulates the Barclays show.

Like, why don't you emulate the one show? Well, you can't emulate it. They have Barclays. No, you actually can emulate it. Have really smart conversations with people that are good at talking. First take is probably the closest now to doing this, even though those are like three and a half minute monologues back and forth, but they'll never have more than three or four people on that show. Like they get it. You know, it should be three. It should be four max. I don't know why we care about it, but

you know, like it's fun for us. Like we did that Wise Guys Fandles show and it's four people. And we feel like there's an opportunity to maybe gain a little bit of audience because some of these pregame shows, they've just kind of punted on the conversations that people want. So who knows? Maybe it's impossible, but the Barkley show makes me think it's not impossible. Well, I'm not sure there was ever a golden age of the pregame show, as long as you and I have been watching TV. I don't remember Irv Cross being like, let me take five minutes here to talk with Phyllis George about West Coast offense. But I think when we live in a world of podcasts, and you're now used to people having actual human interactions and talking about stuff. And I'm not even talking about analytics and all that stuff, but just like actually

hashing something out for more than- Playing off the other person, which is how human beings interact. And not coming in with a script that you're going to read because all this stuff is very scripted. Did you watch, by the way, the NBC pregame show on Thursday night before the Chiefs-Lions game? Where they had three different packs of people that they would just bounce around to? Including Nepo Jack was there? I wrote this down because you paid me to do this stuff.

Nine people, nine NBC commentators in the first 25 minutes. Wow. Wow. Wow, that would make a record. Like we got to the Mike Florio, Matt Berry tier. It was like, oh, oh, oh, there's one more. It's Tariqo with Roger Goodell. And you're just like, why do we need three sets and nine people and all this? Why don't we just talk about a couple, pick a couple of things, plenty of time.

And this is, the thing is, this is not a halftime show. This is an hour long pregame show. Yeah. So what is the excuse for everybody giving one soundbite? Then we whip it over to the other desk. They also love the standing stuff on the field, which always just makes me uncomfortable. But I think, cause I've had to do those in the past. There's nothing worse. You don't know you want to be, you want to stand, you don't want to rock back and forth,. There's nothing worse. You don't know. You want to stand. You don't want to rock back and forth, but you're standing, but you can't be too stiff and you have to be engaged with the people. And it's just like, nobody stands in a four person straight line and just talks for five minutes. Like you go to a cocktail party. People are like,

they're clustered together. They look at each other as they talk. This is like, you're looking away, but you're still standing. You mentioned this six man thing about how they don't talk to each other. I'm dying for somebody on one of those shows as it goes around to one person, next person. And then just like at the end of the guy's thing, he's like, blah, blah, blah. And that's why I decided to kill JFK. And then he ends his thing. And the next guy just starts talking because there's no way he heard anything the guy said. It's like,

and that's why I started the COVID virus or just some crazy thing just to see if anyone would else would notice. Cause I don't think they would. Cause they're just, they're just like, I, this person can stop talking. And then I go, this person can stop talking. Then I go, Oh, he's done. I go. And they don't listen. So at some point somebody should try that. Um, let's can stop talking. Then I go, oh, he's done. I go and they don't listen. So at some point, somebody should try that. Let's take a break. And I want to talk about Buck and Aikman. All right. So you did a big piece about Buck and Aikman who have kind of stumbled into Madden and

Summerall status unexpectedly. There was a time when I've talked about this before, I just didn't feel like Aikman was that good. I think the Romo thing reinvigorated him in all kinds of ways. And, you know, in some ways it was fitting that at the, this Rogers game, which was pretty incredible, that those were the announcers. And then we had the Mannings and the Manning cast.

And it was just like, we had all the A teams all over the place. You spent some time with them for that piece. What was your big takeaway? Can we first just pause on the number that they have been together for 22 years, which seems crazy. And that's longer than John Madden and Pat Summerall were together. That was stunning. When you put that together, I was like, oh my God, because it's felt like Madden and Summerall were together. That was stunning. When you put that together, I was like, oh my God, because it's felt like Mata and Summerall were together for a hundred years. It's like, how was that possible? And I look back, it's like Friends was still on TV

when Joe and Troy started calling games together. Wow. It's just mind-blowing. So there's that. I think it's interesting when you mentioned about Aikman because the knock on him early on was, well, he just doesn't have a big opinion about anything. He's not digging in on anything. But I think the thing that changed was announcing got really nice in the NFL over the last 20 years.

Everybody stopped calling out players and coaches. Everybody stopped being mean. They used to be in the 90s when you get the Bob Trumpy game and you're like, oh, he's about to light somebody up. Here we go. He really was. He was amazing.

He was ready to go. He was. He was frisky. Even Collinsworth in those days, like he was, you know, he was headhunting from the broadcast booth. Everybody got really nice

and nobody criticizes anymore. And I think what happened with Aikman is he stayed right here and then over the last five years, and I think you're exactly right. He got even a little more outspoken. There was that great Jimmy G moment when the Niners were playing the Rams in the NFC championship game, where he was like, oh, it's up to Jimmy G. Unfortunately, now the last try when the Niners had the ball. Yeah. And just by the fact that he didn't change his approach, he all of a sudden seemed like a way more honest guy because everybody else was trying to make you think

the backup quarterback and the bottom third coach were these geniuses. It's just like the whole way the NFL is talked about changed. And he really didn't change, and I think that made him look better by comparison, if that makes sense. And there's a little more bite to him. Even you could feel it during the Zach Wilson, the four quarters he played the other night. There was a couple of times where

Troy just couldn't hide his disgust at a decision. And he's more willing to go with that feeling now than he was. Somebody told me this. I don't even think I used it in the piece, but they said, Troy is genuinely disappointed by bad football. And the other thing that clicked on, besides Romo coming into broadcasting in 2017 and getting all this attention, was the next year Fox started doing those Thursday night games. And a lot of times the matchup was just terrible.

And I felt you would turn it on and Buck and Aikman would be sitting there for their little standup at the beginning of the game. And they'd have this like smile on their face because they're like, this game's gonna suck. And tonight we kind of have to do this like a celebrity roast. Like we just have to have fun

because this game is not gonna be entertaining. And I think that unlocks something in both of them too. Troy, perhaps a little bit more so, but it just made them feel more fun. And I think now iflocks something in both of them too. Troy perhaps a little bit more so, but it just made them feel more fun. And I think now if you look at all the NFL teams, they're kind of the fun team on Monday night. They're the team you're like, this is going to, this just broadcast is going to be,

it's going to have a little more looseness to it. It's going to be a little more, it's going to be a little sillier when appropriate. It's just going to have that vibe to it more than the other ones. The Sunday night and Monday night games are the only ones that matter. And Thursday night, I guess. But just having those guys do the 425 ET Fox game or whatever,

especially now with the multi-view box we have and just the ability to watch all these awesome games and bounce around. The announcers for those first two sets of games just aren't as important. So I'm willing to, as long as we have the night games and Collinsworth, as you said,

I don't know if he's at the same spot he was at a while ago. I'm interested to see from an NBA standpoint, because that's coming next month, Doc, Doris, and Breen is going to be the combo. he was at a while ago. I'm interested to see from an NBA standpoint because that's coming next month. You know, Doc, Doris, and Breen

is going to be the combo. But you were talking about how the announcers all got too nice. I mean, that was definitely a problem with Doris the last couple years. I don't think she was

critical enough on the broadcast that, you know, it's just, she was calling players by the first names. And I kind of want to get back

to the era of people, Van Gundy would concentrate all of his stuff on the refs. He I kind of want to get back to the era of people. Van Gundy would concentrate all of his stuff on the refs. He would never criticize coaches. And he was very hesitant to criticize players for the most part. I'm going to be really interested to see what Doc's willing to say, because we've talked about this a bunch over the years. The guy who thinks he's coming back is always way more careful. But Doc came on my podcast in June after game five of the finals. He was fucking awesome. And he was laying stuff out and he was critical. And I was like, if he does that on TV, this will be the

best we've had in a while. But there's something about where the NBA is now that I think they want the more positive stuff. And you can feel it in the pregame shows. Barkley's the only one who can really get away with what he gets away with. The incentives in broadcasting have totally changed. And I think we get distracted by this because of first take and shows like that. But it used to be that if you were calling games

in the 80s and the 90s, the way you made your bones was to criticize your old colleagues, players and coaches. That's how you broke through. And that's post Howard Cosell. That was seen as the standard. Are you going to be able to get up there and be critical of people?

And that's what people, by the way, got rewarded for. I mean, I think what happens, at least part of the explanation is social media. And a lot of these announcers, they did that. They tried that on. Whoa. I got a ton of backlash from usually just fans of the team. It's not even really anything that makes sense. It's just like I criticized the Celtics.

Celtics fans got mad at me. I'm never making that mistake again. And they just realized it was a lot easier and a lot more comfortable just to be like, you know what? When in doubt, I'm just going to praise. I'm going to take that out. And I just think the whole economy of the broadcasting has changed. Well, even the fact that the players can now fire back on social media and you have to weigh, like if there was some announcer, like when LeBron earlier this week, or was it last week when team USA loses, they don't even get the bronze. And the next day the piece comes out. Oh, it was this week. Um, LeBron, leave it to the younger guys. Your time came and went. You did 2008 and 2012. The Olympics are for the younger guys. Let them have their moment. Why

do you have to do it? If somebody had said that, then it would have turned into a two-day, you're just a hater, LeBron. It would have turned into this two-day thing. But it would be an interesting opinion for somebody to have. And the thing I worry about in this day and age is there are people afraid to just zag against where everybody's going. Because I don't know if we should, like, I don't even know if Bird and Magic should have been on the dream team. It was cool for them to have from a popularity standpoint and the charisma of those guys and the whatever. But, you know, that was really Barkley's team and Jordan's team. And it was their era.

And that team should have belonged to them. It's a really interesting world. I remember asking Collinsworth about this two Super Bowls ago when the Bengals were in it. And I was like, I would have loved to have heard you come on at the beginning of the game and be like, I played for the Bengals.

I went to two Super Bowls with the Bengals. Every Bengals Super Bowl until this one, I played in as a receiver. And this is what this would mean to Cincinnati. This is what this would mean to this franchise that has never won the big, big game. Just to put that in there. And then you call the game down the middle,

but just had that moment. He's like, you would have liked that, but people on Twitter wouldn't have liked it. They would have said, oh, you're in the can for the Bengals, even though he freaking played for the Bengals. And it's just so weird. I mean, it doesn't, and you're just like, but, but you're the Bengals expert. You still live there. Like, you know, you, I remember interviewing him years ago and he still had season tickets. And it's like, you're the guy I want to hear from there, but I don't think social media lets you go there, or at least announcers don't think social media lets you go there. The lines are being blurred all over the place, including with documentaries.

And we're in this era of untold, you know, my feelings. Just in general, the sports infomercial documentary era that we're now in. There's Your Beloved Cowboys sold a documentary series for $50 million that they're going to produce. And I know you'll watch. There's some other projects coming. But then, so we have that side and then we have the winning time side of here is a dramatic interpretation of everything that happened in the 80s with a really famous team. And you already know all the stories,

but here's our version of what happened. And I don't know what's going on. Can you make any sense of any of all of this? Let's start with the documentaries, and they're not documentaries. They're memoirs. They remind me exactly of the books you and I used to read as kids.

When an athlete would write a book, and you'd read it, and you'd be like, there's a lot of good stuff in here. There's some cool memories or cool stories I didn't know, but then you'd get done with the book, and you'd be like, that was good. That wasn't a pantheon level sports book

because it was written by the athlete. I feel that when I see the Johnny football movie or anything, it has good stuff in it. It's interesting. They're rarely terrible. Maybe the Steph Curry one. But they're rarely just like, I don't want to watch this. I think there's been some truly terrible untold ones. I thought the Tim Donahue thing was actually

aggressively terrible and irresponsible. And I thought the Manziel thing was just insane. Well, the first, I thought the A&M stuff was like, I was like, when he was with him and Uncle Nate, and they're talking about all the money they made at A&M and concocting this thing about his family and all this stuff. I was like, okay, I'm into this. But then it took a total pass on the whole Browns era and all his behavior off the field and everything. And there clearly wasn't any engagement with that. It reminds me of, you mentioned the books that we grew up reading, and I use the autobiography

analogy for where documentaries are going. That's exactly what it is. There were so many fun books in the 60s and 70s that you just read with an entire shaker of salt. One of my favorite basketball books ever is Wilt's autobiography, where I think it's called Not Just Another Seven-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door. And there's a picture of him with his goatee. And the book's incredible and has all of these things in it. And you're reading it and you're reading it and you're like, come on, well, like he's blaming everyone else for every single playoff loss. And

he's talking, he's just, it's just a bonkers book, but it's really fun to read. And, you know, if we end up there with documentaries, like where it's like, I know this guy's full of shit or this story's full of shit, but I'm still having a good time. I think that's fine, but I still value the journalism piece with these. So here's the weird part about that. You remember six months, eight months after The Last Dance came out, HBO did that two-parter on Tiger Woods. And it was journalism, right? It was based on a book that you and I both really liked. It was totally unauthorized. It had Rachel, you could tell on there.

It had just footage. They didn't need the PGA stuff, right? They did this whole, we're going off road. We're going to tell the Tiger Woods story. We're not going to worry about it. And people watch that and they're like,

where's Tiger telling stories? Yeah. People didn't actually, where's Tiger telling stories? Yeah. People didn't actually, they didn't enjoy it. Yeah. It was, it was almost so much the other way that they were like, no, no, I love the authorized thing where Tiger's in here telling us how he won the masters. And that was to me a really interesting thing. Cause whenever you think about this, we all said we want journalism and we do, right?

I mean, an old school 30 for thirties, you know, this idea that you could just bring a filmmaker in and tell a story and not have to pay everybody involved and make them an executive producer and stuff. But that to me was really revealing because I think people do want, in a lot of cases, the athletes, they, they, they recoil when it gets, when they think they're being sold something that's phony and incomplete. But they also do want to see people like Tiger telling stories, having memories, you know, and it's weird. And I don't totally know the way out of this. Yeah, I don't want to say too much, but we've been working on this Vince McMahon thing for three years for, for Netflix.

And I think it has a chance to be great, but it's also been really complicated for all the reasons you can imagine. To me, if we land the plane on this, like I think we can, then that would give me hope that this can still, you know, that this can still work,

but again, not easy. And especially like when you need, you know, that this can still work, but again, not easy. And especially like when you need, you know, whoever the principal is or the league or footage, it's just not the way it was in 08 and 09. You could just be like, Hey, we want to do a documentary about you. And they're like, cool. What can you sit down for an interview next week? I'm like, great. And that's how a lot of those 30s were done initially. Like I remember we couldn't get Iverson to do this Steve James one that we did about Iverson in Virginia. And he wasn't in it.

And, you know, at that point, it was still a pretty early time for documentaries, but or for the modern documentary, I should say. And we were like, wow, we don't have Iverson. What does this mean? And it's like, well, Steve James, we have him and he'll figure it out. And he figured it out. And it turned out to be, you know, I think a solid documentary. It would have helped if he was in there. I think now if somebody made that, you go to Iverson, you make them an EP, you tell

the story through his lens and it becomes like the autobiography thing. Look, all this stuff, everything evolves, everything changes. And to say like, oh, I wish it was so much better in 2010. That era is probably never going to happen again. But something like the Reggie Miller versus the Knicks doc that Dan Cora has made, you can still make that now. You just have to make sure you get all the interviews. But that was a really cool story about this little weird rivalry that never seemed like it could have been a documentary. And that's what made it so much fun to watch. So I still feel like those will happen. It will. But I think you would, even if you set out to make that one, Reggie Miller, quite right. But it'd be like, well,

I'm going to get paid for this. I'm going to be, he was an EP on that one. That's what I mean. But like, so you're already confronting the sort of, you're bringing the players in. They know this has happened. The last dance in a lot of ways was the road to being an EP on everything. Well, when we make the documentary about your friendship with David Shoemaker

that spans when you were kids, you guys are going to be EPs. We wouldn't just do the unauthorized. We actually had a film crew shooting that. We've never used the footage. The footage of you guys watching 1992 SummerSlam? Playing Royal Rumble on Super Nintendo?

No. I know you stopped watching Winning Time after season one, but some people like it. I'll just say the show is not for me it did make me wonder um and i think they they missed some things in season one that kind of were irrevocable like the jerry west character for instance um presenting larry bird the way they did in season one which which I think has changed in season two, but just some things where you're just like, all right, I'm out. If they did a

similar type show about the Dallas Cowboys, where I have less history with the behind the scenes part of that, Paul Westhead getting the job because of Jack McKinney's bike accident, and then Pat Riley taking Paul Westhead. I knew all this stuff. I know that magic's going to end up with cookie, but there's some Cowboys, especially with a bigger team that seems like that would be a more fun version of winning time. I don't know how you would do the football, but would that be your number one draft pick for a show like this? Or would you pick something else? No, because you and I would switch places. And then I would be like, I knew all that. Right.

I've read all three Skip Bayless books. I did. I was in high school when this happened. You better believe I was listening to one billion hours of sports radio every day. Like I was so, I remember reading the Jeff Perlman Cowboys book and I was just like, I remember that.

I remember that. I remember all this stuff. So you wouldn't be in on that show. It's weird, right? I mean, look, would that make a great, was that a great subject for drama? Sure. It is. Charles Haley? We'd have to go make rated X for the Charles Haley scenes. Oh my God. And just the Michael Irvin, Troy Aikman, just how different those guys were. Yeah.

I mean, Jerry Jones, Jimmy Johnson. I mean, there's so much to it. Barry Switzer in season three, season four. When do we bring Barry in? As long as we don't do the Adam McKay thing where we have to stop and self-referentially talk about- Talk to the camera. Oh my God.

No, no, no, no, no. That was when winning time became tough for me because I was like, do we need to do this? This feels a little on the nose. Well, they talked about the Vince McMahon scripted thing that I think he ended up killing. And I don't know how that would have worked either. I think it's really tough when you have the history with the people.

And what's interesting about Winning Time is I think the guy who plays Magic Johnson is actually as good as you could have ever hoped for a show like that. I totally agree. Same for Kareem. I think those guys are good actors. I totally agree. Yeah. And the stuff, I didn't, and I gotta say, I didn't know all the Paul Westhead stuff. I knew of it vaguely, but

I didn't know the details of that, bike accident, all that stuff. So that, again, it's just purely putting me in another scene. I'm like, oh, that's different. It is one of those shows that I don't totally know what the Venn diagram of the audience is for it. Because a lot of the people I know are in my age group who would watch that show don't. But Larry Wilmore loves it. But Larry Wilmore is also a Laker fan. Jeannie Buss tweeted about it recently. I'm like, you're the last person who should like this show.

Why did you like? Yeah. Wait, she's on board now? Because wasn't she doing her own opposing project? Well, it already came out. That's what I mean. But wasn't her whole thing?

I think Jay Moore was on the show. Maybe that's what. Oh. Because her whole thing was like, we're doing this because of winning time, right? Winning time, that's not the authorized story.

This is the authorized Lakers story. I don't know what to tell you. Here's the hard part about those shows. The winning time style show is you're defending something that's between documentary and totally made up. So if you tell me, you know, Bill Simmons documentary about the Celtics, I understand that. You've told me Bill Simmons wrote a script about a basketball team in the 80s. Totally made up. I get that. It's going to be a movie, a feature film. Now, if you tell me Bill Simmons is going to produce, is going to EP a show that's going to be very truthful about the Celtics, but also completely make some things up for narrative purposes. So it's going to be like historical fiction. You going to be like how do i defend that it's just hard and you and i've read like by the way every movie that's about a historical figure is historical fiction they're all made up we don't we didn't know what conversations gandhi had you know in the movie they wrote those but it's hard to tell people that and explain that to people

and i just think you start off, even if you didn't do the Jerry West part, even if you didn't do that, you just start off with something that's very, very hard to defend and explain. Well, we'll see. We'll see if it gets renewed.

Anything else we need to cover before we go? I think we got most of it. I think we got most. I'm going to go back to overreaction Thursday. Do you understand the McAfee thing? Um, why he's popular? Why the show's popular? No, just like how it makes sense for ESPN and will it work?

I think on the one hand, and maybe you and I talked about this once upon a time, it is absolutely the right thing for them to do to go get the big stars in that space like that. Yeah. In the new world we live in where people are going to watch linear television less. Yep. You want a thing that's more like a podcast. That's more like a YouTube show. On the other hand, you're sort of like, you know, putting yourself in a really, you're putting yourself in Pat McAfee's hands, right? Like it's, I said this when the Stephen A contract came down on this, is you're sincerely saying that talent is going to be running ESPN, is going to have all this agency at ESPN that I don't need to tell you this,

they never had before. Right. You kind of get to do what you want and say what you want. And that's a really interesting move for ESPN. It's not that many people that have that kind of power. It's probably like four or five, if you put Joe and Troy in there.

Well, it's also perennially the least valuable part of the schedule in the entire day for them. It was the part of the schedule that they always cared about the least and kind of buried the most stuff. But I would just say putting him on game day on Saturday morning, it's a very, very profitable show for them. Yeah. And putting him on there, he keeps him away from Fox's competing brand,

which is like the one way the Fox thing could get some traction. So you lock him in, you keep him on that show for the next 10 years. He's going to do other things. I think probably the question is, what else does he do for you? Because if you sign people these mega contracts, we've seen this with Stephen A, Greeny, and all these guys, you're now on TV all the time. So he did an alternate telecast of Texas Bama.

Those things are probably not watched by a huge number of people, but what else is he going to do at ESPN? I think would be an interesting question to ask. All right, Brian Curtis, when's your next piece coming out? Let me think about that. I got a few things. I got a big thing in the works, but it's slowly. The plane's landing slowly. We're circling the runway. All right. Good luck.

Thanks for coming on. Always great to see you. Thanks, Bill. The right coverage can make all the difference. Securian Canada gives you that coverage. For more than 65 years, Securian Canada has been helping Canadians build secure tomorrows. Their insurance solutions are designed to help protect you and your loved ones financially, giving you the peace of mind to focus on what truly matters. Find their products through banks, credit unions, and associations. Or visit SecurianCanada.ca. Securian Canada. Insurance designed for life.

Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. All right, my friend Kevin Hench is here. Three and a half years ago, the Red Sox traded Mookie Betts,

who is the best everyday player of either of our lifetimes who have played for the Red Sox franchise. The trade predictably couldn't have gone worse. The last couple years of the Red Sox could not have gone worse. Today they fired their GM, Haim Bloom, who drafted pretty well. I guess if you're going to go on the

pros of the pro-con list of the Haim Bloom era, the cons are pretty much everything else. One of the pro con list of the Heimblum era. The cons are pretty much everything else. One of the worst GMs of our lifetime, I don't know for Boston sports, I don't know if he's number one, but I think he's in like the eight man conversation, right? Well, the good news is for us,

since the Red Sox get rid of the greatest player of his generation every hundred years, we won't be alive for the next one. It's so nice that we will be dead and won't have to see the Red Sox. I mean, Mookie Betts, and as obviously you and I live in Los Angeles, we go to Dodger Stadium. We love him almost as much as we did when he was in Boston. And what's weird about time is that this will be his headline, right? This will be his Harry Frazee Babe Ruth headline, but probably a decision that he did not make unilaterally, right? So he'll get blamed in his baseball obit for losing the greatest player of his generation or shipping out the greatest player of his generation but to me as i was just going

through it's the the small board decisions that he did have control over that were also awful like yeah so he the big stuff was terrible i mean i'm you and I immediately, I mean, I wasn't a Trevor Story expert. And then I went immediately, I'm like, 191 strikeouts, 174 strikeouts. I'm looking at these strikeout numbers. I'm like, he doesn't hit the ball, but he plays in Colorado. So when he does hit the ball, his balls and play numbers are going to be inflated in Colorado. So when he does hit the ball, his balls in play numbers are going to be inflated in Colorado. So he's going to miss the ball a bunch. And when he hits it, he's not going to be in Colorado anymore. I'm like, immediately you and I were like, this is a terrible contract

in a weird way. The injury. Wait a second. You, you left out the part where he was available because nobody wanted to sign him because they were worried about Asobo, which we thought was a major red flag. No, they think it should be okay. And then he starts playing for the Red Sox and they're like, well, he's having trouble throwing, but it should be okay. And we're like, what is this? I mean, the Trevor Story signing, it's like there are two ways this could go wrong. If he's hurt or if he's not hurt, which is just a terrible signing, you know, but like, and again, I, Andrew Benintendi, the point of a general manager is like, you know, buy low, sell high, like

improve your organization with every move, try to try to improve your organization a little bit. So, you know, Ben Attendee was the rookie of the year runner up in 2017 after hitting a playoff home run in 2016. In 2018, he has a great season, 4.8 war, 830 OPS, you know, a signature, you know, maybe the best defensive play to end a playoff series, you know, that comes to mind, you know, maybe the best defensive play to end a playoff series, you know, that comes to mind, you know, and then 2019, he regresses a little bit, but then COVID hits and he gets 39 at bats in 2020. And they sell as low as possible on a guy like, you know, so it's like Franchi Cordero is not a major league player and Josh Winkowski maybe a slightly above

average middle reliever, didn't look at when he lost to the Yankees on Tuesday, but like time and time again, hey, Hunter Renfro's a serviceable right fielder with power. Let's trade him to get JBJ back who can't play in the big leagues. Like over

and over and over. Wait, you left out and it costs more money to add the JBJ contract. Like there was stuff where it's almost seemed like he didn't have the figures for the contracts. There was stuff where. Is it bad when you're talking about a terrible tenure and your buddy goes, oh, and you left out like there's so much that you're like, yeah, there's no way you can keep it all straight. Brian Barrett can't keep it all straight. You know, he's a cyborg and nobody can keep all the terrible decision making. By the way, this year. So I forgot, like, cause you forget, you're like, there've been so much, there's so much mismanagement. So the key thing you do at

the deadline, your job is to go, are we a contender or not? Because there isn't a third answer. That's a binary thing for a general manager. And are you telling me that Lucas Giolito had value, but James Paxton had no value at the deadline? It's like, no, he just did nothing. He didn't come to work. He didn't do anything, which is not an option. You either look at your roster and go, we could win the world series this year. And then you trade Marcel Omer or you go, we're not going to win the world series. And you trade James Paxton. So this thing of like, I'm just not going to go to work.

I'm not going to like, did you roll calls? What were the offers for James Paxton? So we get nothing for Paxton a year after getting nothing for J.D. Martinez at the deadline. And it's like, you can't keep getting nothing at the deadline. And now we have an organization that can't catch the ball, can't pitch, can't run the bases. We're kind of a fun, slow- slow pitch softball team like we're kind of fun uh hitting the ball but like it is it's just in disarray and like you know look you talk about drafting and obviously you and i have a lot invested in marcelo mayor which which we which we

we chose him over volpe in our in our aot league in our league of dorks. And the fact is he just hit 189 in AA and his career trajectory right now is worse than Jeter Downs' was at the same age. So obviously I hope Marcelo gets healthy. I hope he's actually a shortstop. I hope, you know, but, you know, obviously, I hope Marcelo gets healthy. I hope he's actually a shortstop. So, as a GM, you make these decisions basedaguer you know but that's what you get graded on like if you look at the numbers you're like that does look like a good guy to have in your

organization and then it just didn't work out so time and time again bloom made decisions based on you know his however whatever his process is and it's just like bad bad over and over again um you know i mean obviously like even like schwarber like we were like we loved what he did and it's just like bad, bad over and over again. You know, I mean, obviously like even like Schwarber, like we were like, we loved what he did. And it's like, are we, are we trying? And so it feels like, I mean, I think you're obviously more wired into everything than I am, but like, you know, did ownership want a fall guy so they could just pay more attention to their soccer team. It's very confusing and very

sad because we are not in good shape for the near future. You left out a bunch of stuff, including two straight trade deadlines where they basically, the trade deadline came and went and they were like, well, you know, we kind of wanted to see how it played out, which is exactly what you don't want to do in a trade deadline. As you said, it's path A or path B. It's not, let's limp along and hope this works.

It's an NBA team trying to get the eighth seed. Right. You left out, last year, they just threw away the first base position. They just decided, the easiest position to get offense from where it's like the worst case scenario, just put a terrible defensive player there and maybe you'll hit, but then you'll lose some runs on defense or go the other way and put an awesome defensive player. And they just put players who were terrible offensively and defensively there and just toss the position away. The Mookie Betts trade, which I know they're going to end up pinning it on him. I was talking about on Twitter that he was Haim Harvey Oswald. That was how it's going to play out. He's the lone gunman. He was the one that did it. They're going to manage to pin it on

Terry Francona. They're trying to figure out how to do that. He was managing another team, but he still made the trade. He was the one that still decided to back off from that Dodgers reliever who had some sort of arm issue. He throws one every game I've been to. He threw like one-on-one. But the trade itself was bad. The decision

not to extend Bogarts and wait a year and then his price doubled and then he leaves. That was bad. The spending money on story and sale is, I don't know who to blame on that, but he's got to get at least partial blame on that. But they paid all this money for two injured guys that adds up to what you could pay Mookie Betts. Like just right there fundamentally is a disaster. No, it's so it's astonishing. So if they, you know, if the parents said, okay, you can make these decisions, but if you're going to make one of these decisions, you have to check with us first. You have to come to the adults to make a big boy table. Then you go, okay, he was hamstrung on these organization changing decisions, but, you know,

crush it on the money ball decisions, crush it on the small decisions. You know, Tampa Bay ray it up a little bit for us. And like you look at the roster. I mean, by the way, this is with Duran maybe being a major leaguer. Like we actually got an exciting piece of news this year. But like there are so few guys on that roster to build around. It's a mess. And obviously, your job is to make it not a mess. I understand if you were brought in to get rid of that David Price contract. I know it was not. Dombrowski sailed off into the sunset and left a difficult job. But man, he did not do it well.

We approved of the Raphael Devers contract just because there's no way you could have a big market team in Boston and not keep any player you develop. So they kind of had to do it. But the irony of it is, with the Mookie Betts thing, the thing that drove us crazy was they used this analysis of comparing him to these other baseball players who hit their thirties and made a lot of money and then their careers went down. And our whole argument the entire time, and it was even on this podcast was you can't compare Mookie to other baseball players. He's one of the great athletes in any professional sport. He can play multiple defensive positions. He is the best base runner I've ever seen in my life. And he cares about his body. He takes care of himself. I don't feel like there's a better bet for somebody to keep playing well into their

mid thirties. So they let him go. And then Devers fits the classic profile of corner infielder. There's a chance he'll put on weight as he gets older. His defense wasn't good to begin with. The breadcrumbs lead toward, and I still defend the signing. I'm glad they did it. But if you're going to get scared of a signing, that was the one to be scared of. Breadcrumbs is a good metaphor because it's definitely going to be carbohydrates that doesn't. I mean, that guy is going to get, he's going to get huge. He already has no range. I mean, that guy is going to get, he's going to get huge. He already has no range.

I mean, he's a butcher defensively. And yeah, the 850 OPS is not going to be worth it fast. Like that, I agree with you 100%. Like you had to sign somebody, but of all the metrics, like although that bogey contract does look horrendous now. Yeah. Congratulations.

But it wouldn't look horrendous if it was the $85 million extension or whatever was realistic. Yeah. So I thought I was depressed before I came on. You're reminding me of other things to be depressed about. Like, oh, Hench, it's way worse than you remember. You left out three other things. No, the Rafi thing is, you know, that we're going to be oddly hamstrung, which he'll probably pull when he gets really overweight.

Yeah, it's not good. What can we point to anything good Bloom did? Wait, so just to illustrate for the listeners how bad this got, there was a series last year. Well, Dahlbach, who was one of the all-time catastrophes last year, and there was a series where they played him, and we were on our text thread wondering if Cora was playing him as a fuck you to management for not doing anything about first base

and he was like, watch this. I'm going to play Dahlbeck in the biggest series of the season. I have a vague memory of this because some of the stuff I got blocked out, but that's how dark it got on the text threads. It's like, is the manager trying to show up at the front office? He put Bobby at shortstop.

That really, you want to see how threadbare we are here in the front office. He put Bobby at shortstop. Like that were really like, you want to see how threadbare we are here in the bigs. So, I mean, I guess having a fall guy and dropping the ax, you know, he didn't do a good job. And in a tough business, you deserve to lose your job when you do a bad job. But it's really hard to know how much autonomy he had on the big decisions. Well, he definitely drafted pretty well and that will be his only positive legacy. What do we make of the owners though? This is the other question I wanted to talk about because we had these guys that came in and we were that person who was just in this series of horrible relationships. And then finally these people came in and they actually told us we were pretty and got us some jewelry. And we were like, this is great. This person's so nice to me. I just can't believe.

And then we ended up winning the World Series. They fixed Fenway. They make Fenway nicer. And then we ended up winning four World Series, which I don't know how much to credit them, but they deserve some credit. But at the same time, there's been just incredible dysfunction for the last 20 years. The Theo Lucchino stuff, the Terry Francona stuff, the hit campaign on Francona was really super weird. The Ben Charrington, the Dombrowski era era where they just basically let him gut the team for a 2018 world series and gut every asset we had.

And then they were like, wait, what'd you do? And then the last four years, which were honestly bonkers. The Mookie trade is bonkers. I still can't believe it happened. What do we make of these guys?

Mookie is like, I don't know. Like when you were growing up, if you like threw, threw your, threw a tennis ball against the garage, like everybody had their like thing they did when they were in their imagination. And like Mookie is like a guy you would make up when you were 10 years old as an imaginary figure. And you're like, no one could do all these things.

Like, but in a little kid's head, you could invent a guy who's like, he's the best outfielder in baseball, but in a pinch, he could be a gold glove second baseman. You're like, okay, you're out of your mind. Like, no, no, no, no. He's super fast. He's as fast as an NFL corner, but he hits for power, but he's little. You're like, what? You're out of your mind. And it's like, he is a mythical figure that came out of the corn. Like he just, so of course, if you're a big market team with deep pockets, you, that is

the guy that you go all in, you know, it's sort of like when, you know, when you're, when you're bidding on fantasy guys and you're like, I'm not leaving this draft without Nick Chubb, you know, you're just like $1 higher. Then you just have to say, maybe, maybe we're not going to get a home team discount, but we'll pay over market for a once in a generation, not even once in a generation. He does stuff no one's ever done and incredible citizen. So, so obviously you would want ownership to secure him forever. That said, as someone who lived through all the bad years, I can never be at all mad at this ownership group. I don't know. If you're bored, sell,

I guess, but I'm never going to not love you for what we experienced from 2004 to 2018. It was incredible. You have to give somebody credit. It's like people who are like, it turns out it was all Brady. People mad at Belichick. They're like, wow, did we get that spoiled? It was all Brady. I think Belichick's pretty good.

Yeah, I never understood the who should get more credit, Brady-Belichick thing. Yeah, I never understood the who should get more credit Brady Belichick thing. Yeah, one's an offensive genius and one's a defensive genius. Seems like it's good to put those two things together. I was having flashbacks to that with the Rodgers thing. And then the Jets fans in my life were like, that's not fair. You guys had won Super Bowls when Brady got hurt. And the counter is, look, we just had one of the great seasons of all time and then lost to the Giants in the Super Bowl. And this was the comeback season, the revenge season. And it was over in eight minutes and there were parallels. I'm sorry.

And that year also had the fantasy piece of it too, where he was, you know, what, one of the top 10 fantasy guys. So he ruined everyone's that injury ruined everyone's fantasy team too. And the point is we've been there when you're going through the seven stages of grief in like four minutes where it's like, well, no, maybe he'll come back. Oh, he's got, he's on the cart. Wait. Oh, the early reports aren't good. And you're just like, Oh, my season's over. And no one would have been able to convince you that Matt Castle was going to go 11-5. Right. Invite the comparison, Jets fans.

Okay, back to Bloom. You know, the brutal part of it is your job was to take the mess Dombrowski left you and clean it up. And what he did was create a different mess that somebody's going to have to come in and clean up. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, and we'll never know

who ultimately fired the fatal bullet on the Mookie Betts trade. I'll be interested to see how it gets spun. I'm also going to be interested to see who comes in and takes this. And it's hard not to bring this up, but Theo is still sitting there. It's funny.

I texted you guys on the Boston Sports thread. I was just like, it's so shocking when you think about 2016 and the Cubs winning the world series and how good Chris Bryant, Javi Baez and Anthony Rizzo were. When you look at how much they cost and their numbers now, you're like, this is shocking that they're borderline unplayable. They're all negative war to wins above average.

And Bryant makes $28 million this year. Javi Baez is $22 million. Rizzo is like $17 million. And they're bad. Brian and Javi Baez are 30 and 31. And Rizzo's 34. Your career's not supposed to be over. So I get the gun shy for the bogey, those contracts. And bogey's going to slow down and get thicker and not be able to play shortstop and not, you know, have any value at a,

at a corner position. But I, Mookie, I just think anybody that watched him knew he was transcendent. Like he was just different. You couldn't, you really couldn't. I love how I asked you about Theo and you're still so traumatized by the

Mookie. You somehow, you took it from the Cubs back to Mookie. You didn't even answer the Theo question. Yeah. Well, obviously. We're just a mess. We're both messes right now.

I'm a mess. I would welcome Theo back with, obviously with open arms. I was, you know, and maybe that's part of our answer to your central question is like, you know, you know, owners like to be the boss and GMs would like to have some autonomy. And so, you know, Theo said, well, I'll go break another curse. And so I know it hasn't been long enough for us to call it a curse,

but we're feeling pretty cursed today. Well, Theo broke a different curse, the curse of the too long baseball game that he fixed. And these games fly by now and they're more fun to go to and they're more fun to watch. I just wish it was fun to watch the Red Sox. I've never had the purist beaten out of me faster than watching the pitch call. I was like, this is amazing. Right.

I was like, why are you shortening our national pastime? Then I was like, oh, give it to me. Give it to me. Before we go, just 10 seconds. Are the Pats going to beat the Dolphins? Absolutely. Pats money line guarantee, you know, this, they go out to the fast track with, you know, like Chargers Dolphins is a, is like a joint scrimmage.

It's like, that is like, you know, we watched the Pats together last Sunday, and the Eagles averaged 4.1 yards per play. I guarantee you that will be their lowest yards per play of the season. No one's going to do that to the Eagles. And, you know, Tyreek Hill's not going for 215 yards against this Patriots defense. I think, you know, it's good. And I was pretty impressed, frankly, with having an offensive coordinator and the way the Patriots move the ball. I will not be surprised at all when the Patriots win that game.

It was pretty sad when we were running plays that were like smart plays that got like eight yards, nine yards, and we were on the couch going, great play. Like we're actually noticing that the plays are good. Cause last year it was such a disaster. Like, Whoa, we got a wide receiver open in space for a nine yard pass. Wow. You know, we saw, we got this, this taste of Kendrick Bourne and we're like,

Kendrick Bourne's a player. And then Kendrick Bourne went in Patricia's dog house, but there was no, like, why did he hit on your wife? Like, why is he in your doghouse? And then it's like, now he's out of the doghouse and going, you know, for 30 bucks on everybody's waiver wire. And, you know, he's getting open and he's catching the ball. And it's like, yes, this is how the NFL works. If, you know, if this guy can't cover him, we'll get first downs and touchdowns. So yeah, a real indictment of Patricia. Yeah, we're both optimistic about the Pats. I think people think I'm doing it as a bit, and I'm actually not. I was really impressed by them last week. They see Mac Jones almost threw for 300 yards in the last three quarters of that game.

The defense was legitimately good and I was impressed. By far the best two-way performance of any AFC East team in week one. By far. Not even close. Obviously, the pick six, you have to count it, but Zeke doesn't fumble like Ezekiel Elliott

does not fumble. You spot him 16 points and then you really beat the hell out of him for the rest of the game. So I'm with you, brother. All right, Kevin Hench, good to see you. All right, be well. We'll figure this out.

Someday. Talk to you later. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Brian Curtis and Kevin Hench. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing. Thanks to our friends at FanDuel for giving us a nice little boost for the Pat's Dolphins game on Sunday night

that I'll announce over the weekend on my Twitter feed. And thanks to you for listening. I appreciate it. I'll see you on Sunday night. Hopefully we can keep the Million dollar picks momentum going coming on right after dolphins, pats with the cuz, unless I'm stuck on the Northeast with no power because of this hurricane

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