The Bill Simmons Podcast - Crazy NFL Trade Deadline Swings and the Future of Filmmaking With Sheil Kapadia, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Sheil Kapadia to react to the NFL trade deadline moves (2:54). Then, Sean Fennessey and Van Lathan join to discuss the movie industry, young filmmakers, and much more (50:58)! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Sheil Kapadia, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Get Gameday Deals all season long only on Uber Eats. Order Now. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by SAP. You know that feeling when running a business gets too demanding? The pressure to make everything happen all at once is immense. Like it's fourth and one, and you just need that last yard to seal the wind. Stop stressing so much with the AI-powered capabilities of SAP. You can streamline costs, connect with new suppliers, and manage payroll, even when your business is being pulled in different directions. To deliver a quality product at a fair price while paying your people with their worth,

so your business can stay unfazed. Learn more at SAP.com. The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by Fandual Sportsbook, as well as the Ringer podcast network. We put up a new rewatchable's last night. We did the Truman Show with special guest Glenn Powell, and he was great. And the podcast was awesome. So I would highly encourage you to go check that one out. You can listen on not only on the Ringer, but on the Ringer website as well.

All of our football stuff, trade deadline happened this week. some head scratchers. Shield Capote is going to come on in one second and talk about that. And then I'm going to run something. So yesterday, Sean Fantasy and Van Lathen and I did a rewatchables. And we did two hours on a Brian De Palma movie. And at the end, as I was saying goodbye and wrapping it up, we got in this conversation about De Palma and filmmakers and just movies.

And went for like another 75 minutes. And it was, it was kind of an argument, but we're all friends. So it was just like more like a debate. And we ended up talking about the, the future of the movie business, how to find young filmmakers. What is creativity in 2025? It's just, it just goes all over the place. And we decided to cut it out of the rewatchables to just run it here because otherwise the rewatchables would have been three plus hours. Plus, I think it's something that can hold its own.

And I thought it was really good. And it's the kind of stuff that, I don't know, sometimes in pods, I think people are afraid to really disagree with each other and get mad at each other and the whole thing. And I think with us, because we've all known each other for so long, we can have conversations where it's like nobody's trying to win the conversation. We're just arguing in a good way. So I thought it was really good and I wanted to run it here. So we're going to have Chiokopati and I are going to talk about the NFL trade deadline and Dallas and the Jets and all the, and did the Super Bowl picture change. And then me and Sean and Van talking about movies.

Let's take a break. Bring a Pearl Jam. Sorry, my video isn't great. I'm in Boston, but so be it. Anyway, taking a break. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like needing the protection,

offensive guard on the football field, but getting an elementary school crossing guard. Sure, they're both guards, but you can only trust one to keep your quarterback safe when the game is on the line. So don't settle for just any insurance. when you can have State Farm, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, we're recording 415 East Coast Time, the host of the Ringer NFL show as well as the Phillies special.

His fingers used to work a lot more. You're moving toward me with their fingers not working as much. Shil Kapati is here. You can still break them out every once in a while. I can still break them out. I just wrote a little blurb about what the Eagles did at the trade deadline, just not as, you know, as good as they used to be. Well, since you stopped writing as much, your picks went in the tank. I don't know if that's a correlation.

Hear from hell. Yeah. All of us. The Ring of 107. Embarrassing, but that's not what we're here to talk about. I didn't expect to do an NFL trade deadline top of the pod today because usually it's a disappointing trade deadline. So many fascinating things happen today.

I don't even know where to start. What was your number one most fascinating thing that happened today? I mean, that Sauce Gardner trade was crazy. Like you said, usually on trade deadline day, we see all right, some minor moves, maybe a third round pick, a second round pick, if you're lucky. I can't remember. last time in-season trade, two first-round picks for a guy who, I don't know about you, I read all the coverage.

I don't remember anyone saying, hey, maybe the Jets will trade Soss Gardner at the trade deadline. So that was a stunner. Well, I know I have some Jets fans in my life, as to you. None of them were like doing backflips about how Soss Gardner was playing for the last year and a half. And I even noticed, like, it's not like I have the Jets on the multi-view every week. But I've watched a bunch of them.

And it just felt like he was. a little better two years ago. Still really good. If I'm giving that up for a cornerback, you better be by far the best cornerback in league. They did this for Surtan. I would be like, all right, I get it. That guy's been lights out.

I get it. They also threw in Mitchell, who was their second round pick a year ago, who might be a good receiver. Like, he basically got banished after he had the stupid wave the baby over the goal line move. So I just thought they gave up so much. We could talk about that piece,

but is that too much for Sauce Gardner? I say yes. I mean, I'm looking at, you know, people's reactions and they're all excited about this. But to me, if you're the Colts, like you said, for two first round picks, it's either a quarterback, Miles Garrett, or Micah Parsons. Like, if you're offering me two firsts, Justin Jefferson? Yeah, yeah, I think you could make the case for Jamar Chase. I mean, there's probably maybe eight to 10 players, but basically for a defensive player who's not an elite past rusher in their prime, if I'm getting off for two first, round picks. I'm listening every single time. And so if you're the Jets, you know, he is on a good

contract. He's young, but I like getting the two first round picks for him. And if you're the Colts to me, if you're not settled at quarterback, like to me, there are some red flags here, Bill, like the Colts are telling us they feel like they can win it all, you know, they can get to the Super Bowl. They feel like they found their quarterback in Daniel Jones. Remember, he's a free agent at the end of this season. So they're like, oh, this is our Super Bowl window. And And to me, it's, it's kind of like, you know, your friend who goes out on two dates with someone and they're in love. They're ready to propose. Like, take it slow.

Let's get a little bigger sample with Daniel Jones. We have like six years of history with this guy because those picks, you might need those picks to get a quarterback. I hate to say it, but like, let me ask you this question. A year from now, what are the odds that we're saying the Colts need a quarterback? A year from now, early November that we're saying, you know what? The Colts are kind of in the market. it for a quarterback. 50-50.

I agree. So 50-50. I love your two dates analogy too. And by the way, they had an awful date last week. Yes. They got in a fight at the restaurant and she threw up in the car on the way home and disappeared for eight hours. Yeah.

And then had diarrhea all over the place. That's how bad that date was. So if they made this trade a week ago, I'd feel a little better about it. But coming off that game, here's like, all right. And I was, both of us. us were like, shit, this Colts offense is for real. Like, this team is checking all the boxes of they're blowing teams out. They can run the ball, throw the ball.

They're really well coached at least so far. Let's see it on grass. I picked them last week in Ringer 107. I thought they're better than the Steelers. That's a game. If you have a really good possible Super Bowl contender team, you're going into Pittsburgh. You're taking care of business. And it was the opposite.

It was really bad. And I don't think Sauce Gardner changes my fear. about them on the road on grass. Now, maybe they're thinking shield. We're not going to play on grass. We're going for the one seed. It goes through us through a dome, and we won't even see grass again

until we get to Santa Clara is the only thing I can think. Yeah, if you're a Colts fan, like you said, you're probably excited about it because you're like, ooh, we got a stud corner. We're having a very fun season that we didn't expect with Daniel Jones. So I get that perspective if you're a Colts fan. But yeah, I'm just with you with the 50-50. And even this year, I mean, they're having a very good season.

We're talking about an eight game sample that has been an outlier from anything Daniel Jones has done previously in his entire career when you look at what he's saying. It's not nine games because like you said, they sucked last week. They looked terrible. He turned into a pumpkin. And by the way, they had the hardest remaining schedule in the NFL. If you just look at the betting markets, you know, they do the strength of schedule. It's the hardest remaining schedule in the NFL. So I'm not telling you it's all fraudulent and they're going to stink.

If it were me, I would say, all right, I can see being tempted, but let's just take it slow. We have a good team. Maybe we make a more minor move here at the deadline, trade a third round pick for somebody, that kind of thing. Let's see where we're at at the end of the season. Maybe we franchise tag Daniel Jones. Maybe we don't. We have those picks. We could trade for a player in a future year.

To me, it's just, you know, two years from now, we could be looking at that pick. If the Colts win, I don't know, how many games are the Colts going to win next year? Like, are you confident they're going to win that division? I'm not, you know, that could be a top 15 pick in 2027. I looked up at Fandoas, you were talking, even this year, they're overrunners 11 and a half. There's 7 and 2, 6 and 2? No, 7 and 2. 7 and 2.

Right? Yeah. And 7 and 2 with the leverage game happening. Right. Really, probably 6 and 3. Yeah. But fine, seven and two. I don't know if I would go over on them this year.

And then next year, everybody's a year older. They got one more really awesome, healthy Taylor season this year, at least so far. Now that I'm their pick. I guess the bigger thing I'm looking at this is I'm not against the spirit of the trade. If it had been a second this year and a first next year, do you feel better about that? Because I know like everybody, like McShay's been saying this. and please listen to McShea's show this week. He's talking about that 27 draft

is like a smorgas board for quarterbacks and wide receivers, right? That's, everybody's kind of pointing at, watch out for that draft. So you want to keep that first round in that draft, I guess. But would you care about this one? I don't know.

Is that not enough? I still wouldn't be willing to be that aggressive at this point in time. I mean, my own... You wouldn't have done a second and a 27 first for sauce gardener. I wouldn't do it, right? I wouldn't push my chips in right now

because if I'm in that Colts building and in the meeting room and they're having this conversation, I'm going, like if I'm the bills or something, a team where you're just like, we have our quarterback, the Patriots even, I could say, all right, let's go ahead and take a big swing on something like that. We know we are not worried about quarterback right now. If I'm not set at quarterback, I want to keep all my options open for maybe a trade, maybe a veteran, maybe having to draft somebody in the future. And I know the Colts might not be at that, like the Colts and I view Daniel. Jones differently. I think is what I learned this afternoon when I was looking at all the analysis,

because I'm just like, I need to see more to actually trust it. So yeah, I would have want to keep my picks. I want to keep my options open. I'm with you on the spirit of the trade. Like, I'm not, you know, Sam Hinky like worshipper or anything. I'm like, yeah, I like it. You have a chance. Go for it. I just don't view them as that. Like, I would still be very, very surprised if the Colts were in the Super Bowl this year or next year. Well, it's interesting. Because my beloved Patriots, they did the opposite. They didn't do anything. Yeah.

And this is a team that really needed over everything else an edge rusher, which your Eagles went and got Jalen Phillips. Maybe the Dolphins didn't want to trade in division. I don't know the history behind that. But the Patriots needed an edge rusher. They really needed a wide receiver other than Diggs who can get open on third and eight. And Diggs, it's playing between 40 and 55% of the snaps, right?

And you look at the guy, once Booty went out last week, it like, like Matt Collins played three-fifths of the game. Kyle Williams, who I don't think, I can't remember a single play he's made all year. He played half the game. So I see like whether it was somebody like Shaheed, which I will talk about in a second, I thought that, that guy's always open five times a game. He just has never had a quarterback who can reach him. But he's always down the field with three steps on somebody.

Whether they got somebody like that or a Cooper Cup type, Cooper Cup, obviously not him because he's on a team, but they did nothing. And do you feel like the Colts are that far ahead of the paths to try to make the AFC title game? I don't feel that way. No, no, absolutely not. And I thought the Patriots were going to be aggressive here

because they're one of those teams that has the cap space, as you know, in season. So they could have taken on a Trey Hendrickson. How's the cap space? We have $48 million. That's what I'm saying. We have like 17 million more than anyone else in the league. I know.

So you could have taken on someone like Trey Hendrickson here. I thought Chris Olave on the Saints, I thought, do you get aggressive and give them like a second round pick for Chris Olabe? Do they do that deal? I'm with you on Shaheed, you know, the deal the Seahawks made. I would have done that deal if I were the Patriots. So, yeah, I would be a little disappointed if I were the Patriots. I mean, I think they have a chance. Again, those future draft picks are valuable, but they know they're not going to need to use those on a quarterback.

I can't believe Trey Hendrickson didn't get, I mean, what are you doing if you're the Bengals? Like, this to me is organizational malpractice where your team has no shot this year. The guy's a free agent at the end of the year. And you're trying to, like, you can't just say, I think the price is a first round. The price is what someone is willing to pay. So you shop him, what's the best deal I can get? And those teams, like, if I'm a fan of one of those teams that is out of it and just held on to one of these guys who's gone after the year, I would just be so upset with my front office.

their season ended on Sunday. Yes. Just period. And it was probably over already. But it definitely ended on Sunday with that, with Caleb Williams, hit in Love one over the middle and three guys blowing the tackle. I just,

like, I'm with you. I mean, they do this. And if you go, like, as you know, I like searching the team Reddits.

It's one of the only Reddit searches I do. I just like to check the mood. I have all the team's bookmark. Bengals Reddit's a grim place, man. That is like about as dark as you're, going to get out of the 32 teams with just they just don't spend money they don't care about anything they're basically like the clippers when don't sterling on them of just like happy to cash all the media paychecks from the league spending just enough money to seem like they care but not

really and then the team they put together this year just to pay burrow and two wide receivers have no offensive line and no defense and think that was going to work it was idiotic yeah and they've spent so much draft capital on that defense like they've tried to um right best resources and none of the picks have pinned. I mean, that's one of the worst defense. I think you said it on Sunday. It's absolutely in the running for one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. I think there's five games

this year where an offense has had 500 yards and three of them have been against the Bengals. They're really truly generationally horrible. Like one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. Back to the Jets. The Patriots played them twice, which I was like, I was so please

trade all of your best guys. We still have to play. So basically the pads are nine and two right now, unless they have just a catastrophic loss. Anyway, the Jets get Indies first, Dallas is first in the Williams trade because it's either the choice of Dallas or Green Bay, and I'm going to take a guess that Dallas is going to be worse than Green Bay. So Indies first, Dallas is first, and they made their own first better with these trades. I looked at, at Fandle, the over under for them right now is three and a half.

You could do Jets under two and a half plus 270. I'm in Boston. I did think about it. It might be happening later. But three really good picks, two potential top ten picks. The problem is it's Groundhog Day. This is what the Jets did four years ago. So this is just who the Jets are.

They draft, they hit some picks. They blow it with a quarterback. Four years later, they just trade guys and they start over and rinse leather repeat. Yeah. It doesn't guarantee them anything. Like you said, it could just be. the same thing in three years from now. We're like, oh, they're, you know, they drafted those guys and they're trading them. Now, I do feel like at least it's a plan. And I think their biggest thing is

how are you finding a quarterback? I mean, there's got to be, are you drafting one? Are you doing one of these reclamation projects? Are you trading for somebody who might be unhappy after the season? So I think this at least gives you options. You have five first round picks, two second round picks over the next two seasons. Again, it doesn't guarantee you anything. But if I I were a Jets fan. The one thing I can say about those two trades, like, they absolutely maximize the value. If you would have asked me a week ago, hey, Sheel, what, what sauce gardener going to get on the open market? What would Quinn and Williams get? I would not have said you're going to get back three first round picks and a second round pick in that

deal. So I think they at least, if you're going to trick from a bad team potentially. Yeah, like you said, that's going to be like a top 42 pick. Yep, absolutely. Yeah, there's, there's no guarantee. So that's a lot of draft capital to work with. It does. It doesn't guarantee you anything, but it gives you a chance to find a quarterback. I mean, they do have two good offensive tackles. They have a wide receiver once. What's not like some of those premium positions, they do have some players at least. The guy who made the trade, what's his name?

Mugi. Mojee? Yeah. I don't know how you pronounce it. I guess I should. He was getting a lot of praise in jet circles today. Rightfully so. Those were two really good trades.

He also did give Justin Fields two years, $40 million. I mean, that also happened. I have a friend, I have a bunch of Jets fan friends in my life, including my friend Mark Samino, who is so upset about Darnold being good now because he always felt like Donald was good and they screwed it up and they didn't buy, and they basically just ruined him.

They basically, they had this nice house and they just did not take care of it and the ceiling started to collapse and the sewage system blew, and they just blew it with him. And he actually watches Darnold wherever he goes. he watches the games to torture himself because he's a Jets fan. But that's how dark it is for this Jets thing.

Like they actually did it correctly. They did land a quarterback and the guy bounced around and now like he's potentially going to be on a one seed after going 14 and three last year, Shale. Jets fans have a, I found this too. They have a very soft spot for Darnold where like me, you know, you're probably like me. Like, you know, if the guy gets traded away and you're like, oh my God, screw that guy. You know, he couldn't do that here. That might be more, more hour speed.

But yeah, I think because Darnold just seems like a very cool, likable guy who was just in this horrible situation. And it's like, oh, you know, they're genuinely happy for him, which is something you don't see often in sports. But, yeah, I mean, you look at that now. Because they know. He was in the worst situation for one of the worst franchises. And I don't think they blame him. Also, he grew, the beard thing, I think was a great move by him. I feel like it did change his.

It's a meaner. Something seems cooler about him. But yeah, he's going to be in the mix now. So I want to save Dallas for a little bit later. So Indianapolis, where do you have them in the AFC right now after this trade? Like if you had like the gun to your head, the AFC Super Bowl pick, how many teams would you have to list before you got to them? All right.

So definitely the chiefs, definitely the big. I have both of those as well. I think I would still have the Ravens in there. I know it's a long shot. Really? To get to the Super Bowl? Because we're talking ceiling here. We're not talking about regular season wins or, yeah, I think the Ravens have a higher ceiling than the Colts.

I mean, I don't know if that's controversial or not. I wouldn't have gone that far. I had Denver over them. You're higher on Denver than the defense. I am. I am. And there's a little bit of a horseshoe stuff with them. I thought when they played, the teams were even,

and I actually thought Denver should have won. New England, I would not have over them just because I think New England has some real holes. Are you? What? I mean, are you sure you're trying to be like, you might be leaning too much anti-Homer here, I feel like.

I don't think anyone's ever told you that. I think I would have the Patriots over the Colts. Well, we have, May is a better player than anyone on the Colts, except for Taylor would be the case. But the hits that he's taken the last three weeks, this is all I talk about on my Pat's threads. He's 17 sacks on the last three weeks and six in the last two. And I thought Atlanta really, really pushed him around

and gotten his, you know, I thought they made it really difficult for him. I'm really worried about the injury possibility with them. I don't think they have a lot of depth. But this schedule, they might be able to get a two seat and be that team that we all look at. And they're like, you know, underdogs and a round two home play. playoff game because nobody believes it's legitimate, which would be great. I would take that right now.

Yeah, Vrable has won as an underdog before in the playoffs. I think, you know, unbelievable. I would trust Drake May. I mean, the other thing with Daniel Jones, and I feel like I'm really, I'm going to, you know, Colts fan, sorry, but he's never gotten through a season and played well and been healthy the entire. I mean, he has a very long injury history as well. So that's far from a guarantee.

So I think I would go Bill's, Chiefs, Raven. and I think I would have the Patriots ahead of the Colts. Wow. I would go, I'd go, Bill's Chiefs 1A, 1B in some order. I want to see more,

but they have to be the top two. Yeah. I'd go Denver 3. I think I'd go Indy 4 in New England 5. Okay. Baltimore has too much room for error with the way they've constructed their season. any other injury and they might not even plus you have Pittsburgh who just has it's the

Pittsburgh's this year's horseshoe up the ass team right and the Steelers fans both know it but then also get mad and and say what do you mean it's like all right we had 11 turnovers forced against the Colts and Pats like that's unusual let's all agree that that's unusual like punts hating a punt returner that doesn't happen with other teams it's just you guys yeah yeah so I so I'd probably have the Steelers seventh out of that crew. Yeah, I don't. Chargers are a cross-off.

The Chargers traded for a tackle from the Saints today. I think less to try to win the title and more to just make sure Justin Herbert doesn't get killed. Yeah. That was my takeaway on that trade. Yeah, I don't think they can with, I mean, you lose two offensive tackles. And if you look at their numbers this year, when Joe Alt has been on the field or off the field, I mean, it turns them from like the sixth ranked offense to like the 23rd

ranked offense. So I just don't think they can. with Stan that. I mean, yeah, I'm with you. I just, it is, now I was slow on Darnold last year. I was slow on the Vikings, but it is just very hard for me to get to a point. You're rightfully slow. They lost. I guess so. Yeah, but it's, I mean, Daniel Jones is going to beat Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes in a play, or even Lamar Jackson in a playoff game, that Colts team. I don't know. I was trying in my head to look at Houston every year, as you know, because we both studied the same. stuff, there's always the second half jump team. That's like two and six, three and five,

and they make the jump. And I thought Houston had a real case to do that with the defense they have and getting their receivers healthy, et cetera, et cetera. That loss last week made me so mad. I'm still mad about it. I still can't believe the game management. And I really worry about, I think the coaching stuff has been really dicey with them. And I think people have just because they made the playoffs the first year, everybody's like, Like, remember we were celebrating Ryan's and Bobby Sloick? Bobby Sloak's not there anymore. And Ryan's, the stuff he did on Sunday at it, I just was, I thought it was really,

really concerning. Like that get to overtime, you're not going 60 yards with Davis Mills in 70 seconds to kick a field goal. Like Davis Mills has done nothing for two hours. And to not read that, I just thought, right, really made me turn on them. And then you zoom out. if you're a defensive head coach, your biggest hire is can you find an offensive coordinator?

And he's, you know, he didn't have it the first time. And then personnel wise, I mean, their offensive line is still terrible. So I'm with you. I've been holding,

you know, my Ringer 107 record is so bad. If you take out my Texans picks, I swear, I'm 500. I mean, I lost on them every single week. But,

yeah, their defense is so good. I still like Stroud, even though he's developed bad habits. But yeah, last week's loss, now he's got the concussion. I think you're right that it's probably too much has happened with them.

All right. We'll take a break and then let's talk to Alice. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fandul. Thursday Night Football continues to deliver and Fanduil is keeping the energy up with their $2 million Thursday night football jackpot. You heard me. Placing any time touchdown score about using your profit boost. And if your player scores the first or last touchdown in the game,

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T-D-pick bonus issue does non-redrable bonus betshirts expire us 21 days after receipt restrictions apply see terms at sportsbook dot fando dot com game problem call 180 gambor visit rg dash help dot com call one 888 789 777 or visit ccg.org slash chat in Connecticut this episode is brought to by uber eats Every football season, the same thing happens. The game somehow makes everybody really hungry. Quarterback scrambles clearly a sign for breakfast burritos. Yeah.

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from wings and pizza to chips, drinks, and even last minute grocery runs. Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. All right, the Dallas Cowboys. I'm proud of us that we didn't lead with them.

Maybe one of the only football podcasts or shows that didn't lead with Dallas. Just kudos, fist pump for us. Dallas is drunk. This is one of the worst You can make a case For the Indy trade I still didn't like it

If we were doing grades I'd be in the C minus D plus range This Dallas trade is Fucking bonkers This is like a crazy NBA trade From the 2000s If I was a Cowboys fan My head would be doing

360s. You're 3 5 and 1 You've no chance To do anything in the playoffs What are you doing? You should be absolutely livid So here's the you add it all up and here's what the Cowboys essentially traded if you add up the Parsons trade.

So they traded Micah Parsons and a second for Quinn and Williams, Kenny Clark, and a first, plus they get some cap space in money. So essentially they move up from the second round to the first round and swap Parsons for Quinn and Williams and Kenny Clark. And though, let's not forget this, they lost games this year because they didn't have Micah Parsons. now you're in a hole here. They don't know. And you're giving way this year's pick that you made worse because you traded Michael Parsons, basically.

That's right. Congratulations on that. You've made history. And the 2027 pick, by the way, nice move by the Jets. This is according to the reports out there, is the higher of their pick or the Packers pick. So like if Jordan Love goes down with an injury next year and the Packers have a bad season, like you get a little bit of optionality there with that as well. And who knows what the Cowboys are going to do.

Can you say that again? I didn't see this. This is a new wrinkle? Yeah, this is a new wrinkle. So the 2027 first round pick that goes to the Jets as part of this Quinn and Williams Street, the Jets get the higher of the Cowboys pick or the Packers pick. So that's a nice move there by the Jets that just if you let, you know, who have Dak Prescott has an injury next year.

If Jordan Love has an injury and one of those teams goes really bad, now all of a sudden you have an even higher picks. So can I tell you, do you know how many sacks Quinn and Williams has this year? Three. One. He has one sack. He has three quarterback hits and he ranks 90th in the NFL

in pressures. Now, I'm not trying to kill him. I think he's a very good run stopper. I think he's a very good defensive tackle. I am not giving up a first and then a second with flexi or a second and then a first with flexibility for Quinn and Williams months after I traded away Micah Parsons. Just unbelievable mismanagement. These Jets trades were so crazy.

As you were recounting what they got in my head, they got two firsts for Quinn Williams because this day was so crazy. Yeah. But yeah, that, wow. The 27 draft. Everyone's saying is so loaded. So what? All right, you're in the room with Jerry Jones.

How do you stop him from doing this? What's your case? I mean, I have no idea how you stop him from doing this. I would have stopped him from doing the Micah Parsons trailer. I would have tried my hardest. Like, I would have, that one, I would have gone to the point where I'm, like, locking us in the room or taking away his keys or grabbing his cell phone. Reception.

Yeah. Whatever I need to do, getting him another drink and just saying, Jerry, let's sleep on it and talk about it tomorrow here. But then to come back, I mean, he's been foreshadowing this for weeks and months now where he has done his weekly radio appearances and been like, well, don't sleep on us, you know, trading one of these picks for a player. We're going to improve that defense. And it's like, all right, if the right deal comes along, go ahead and do that. But I would not have done it for this deal in a season where you just lost. on Monday night and look terrible and are three, five, and one. So you're essentially doing this for what, next season now?

Or you think you're making a run this season? I don't get it at all. That's the key point is you were terrible last night. Yeah. By the way, this trade's probably still sitting there in February or March. 100%. Right? 100%.

Why not just wait? What are you guys doing? They were so bad last night. We had Berset last year. the Patriots. He, first of all, couldn't really move. He was so bad that it was a whole conundrum with the Pats fans. Like, do we throw Drake May in even though we can't block and just hope he survives the

year over having to watch another Bresc game? And then, I don't know what's happened to him in Arizona. Maybe the offense is better. But he'd demolished Dallas last night. Yeah. Right? And that was, they were not one Quinn and Williams away from, oh, this game would have been totally different if we had been able to control the most.

the line. Guys were wide open all over the place. They were doing whatever they wanted offensively. So, yeah. This is just like, honestly, it's like, it's like deranged old band behavior. It is. It is. It's a kind of thing like they, like when you're

watching TV shows and they have like the old guy owns the oil bear and the 85 year old grandpa and it's like, wow, he still has the car keys to the business, but we got to figure out how to get away from him. That's where we are now with this guy. And he won't turn down an interview with anybody.

Like, he invited Stephen A. Smith. He's doing a live series show. It's like, what are you doing interviews about? You guys haven't been made a Super Bowl in 35 years. Listen, I'll give him credit. He's good for content. And he knows the content waves. You know, he was foreshadowing that he was going to make a trade.

And then everyone's waiting. And they trade for Logan Wilson, the linebacker who can't get on the field for the worst defense in the NFL in the Bengals. And you're like, wait a minute. Was this the trade? he was actually foreshadowing. So he did make a splashy trade eventually. So nice job with him with the content. They got a lot of headlines in the offseason with Parsons.

They got a lot of TV segments. So I guess if you throw all of that into the trade along with the picks, maybe it comes out a little bit more even in his eyes. This is a good example of what's removed the second round pick. Would you trade your first and it's the higher pick between the Cowboys and Packers for Quinn and Williams? I don't know. I would even do that if I was three, five, and one. I'm just waiting until March now, right? Yeah, I, that you could at least consider. That wouldn't be unreasonable.

He's 28 years old. He's under contract. I think he's like a top five, top 10 defensive tackle. So you could at least talk me into that making some sense, but it's not a no-brainer. It's not a home run. And now you threw in the second round pick as well. The rest of the week must love having Jerry Jones in the NFL allowed to make trades. Did you have the Cowboys as a playoff team before the year? I did before the Micah Parsons trade. Pre-Parsons trade? Yeah, then post-Parsons trade, I didn't.

I had them out after the trade. Well, they're going to be really bad. Their schedule after this Raiders game, Eagles, Chiefs, Lions, Vikings, chargers are all on the docket. Wow. Yeah. So if you're the Jets, like, kudos to the Jets fans. Now you have teams to root against, right?

You have these extra draft picks. You can throw yourself into the 2026 draft. It doesn't really matter anymore if you go one in 16. I guess the one thing is they weren't able to trade Bruce Hall, which I thought was surprising. And, you know, they wanted a third round pick for them, I guess. I did think about it for the Pats. I wouldn't have done it. But if the price was a fourth round pick, I would have done it.

I thought the chiefs. I mean, I was doing fake trades on the Ringer NFL show, and I'm like a fourth that maybe can turn into a third if he does certain things. He makes a NFC title game. It's a third rounder. I mean, I don't really understand playing hardball with that. Again, he's a free agent at the end of the season. So if you're not bringing him back, you see what the best deal is,

and you just take the best deal rather than say, no, we're holding because you're holding out. And now you've got nothing for him. And now he's probably walking at the end of the season. Well, I don't think they wanted to trade him in division. I'm trying to think for the, for the NFC teams, none of the contenders really would have needed him, right? Just go through. I can't, I can't find a single one that would have wanted him.

So that means you're looking at the AFC and you look at the top AFC teams. I just don't think any, the paths were really the only hope for them unless they were looking at the Chargers. And if you're the Chargers, like, what, you know, now that you, the Chargers lost both their tackles. They're not making the Super Bowl. They lost two of the best five guys in their team. So they're out and then you go through.

Yeah, it's a weird one. What did you think about, you know, it wasn't like a huge price, but Jacksonville getting Jacoby Myers. I was just thinking like the amount of picks and money that they've thrown at running back and receiver to try to show that Trevor Lawrence can be a franchise guy, it's kind of staggering.

I was unmoved, I guess, would be the kind way to put that with Jacobi Myers. I mean, you didn't give up much. You know, I think they gave up a fourth and a sixth. He's okay. It's just, yeah, that doesn't move the needle for me. Travis Hunter's injured. He's okay and the Jags are okay.

Yeah, the Jags are, I mean, the Jags are such a dumb team. It just feels like they can't get through a drive without doing something absurd, whether it's a penalty, a drop pass, a Miss Trevor Lawrence throw. Their Red Zone stuff is the best. Oh, my God. One of the most entertaining things about the season so far. When they're inside the Tannett almost feels like you're entering like the Matrix. My favorite trade was Shaheed.

I thought the Seahawks had a real chance to make the Super Bowl even before Sunday night because their defense and the way they can throw the ball and they can block better than people think and what happened in the Niners, etc., etc., etc. And adding Shahid with the way that Donald's been throwing the ball and how good Smith and Jigba has been, and then they have Horton 2.

Cup, nobody knows, if he'll be available in January. Yeah. But Shaheed is like, that's like a real dude that could have a huge impact for them. It fits what Donald's strengths are. I really like that trade.

Third rounder, I think. Love it. Fourth and a fifth. So they didn't even have to give up. Yeah, fourth and a fifth. And I think it makes sense for the reasons. Right now, Jackson Smith and Jigba has 948 receiving yards. No other receiver on their team has more than 293.

I mean, that's shocking when somebody else makes a catch. Shocking. You're like 85. Who's that? I forgot what guy is that? Yeah. So, Shahid played for their offensive coordinator, Clint Kubiak in New Orleans. So it's like, all right, he's going to know the offense.

He's going to be a scheme fit. I thought that was one that made a lot of sense. They just kind of need another pass catcher there. So that might have been the best trade of the trade deadline day. Best value, certainly. I think if you're giving a fourth for a guy who can swing your playoff destiny a little bit, I mean, same thing for Jalen Phillips that the Eagles got for your team. I know you already talked about it.

But, you know, I don't think he was playing that great. He certainly wasn't jumping out of the TV for the Dolphins. But, you know, how he always stockpiles all these extra things. And then he can just kind of give one away and take a flyer on people. But you were okay with that trade. Yeah, I thought that was a good trade. Like my whole thing with trade deadline is if you have a realistic shot to win the Super Bowl, I am fine with you being as aggressive as you want to be.

And Phillips has played for Vic Fangio before. It's just a rental. You don't owe him money after this season. I think when teams get into trouble is when they talk themselves into stuff and then get really aggressive. And then you get to the spring and you're like, man, why did we give away that draft pick? Or you get to next year and you're like, why did we give away that draft pick? But, you know, Fan Duel has the Eagles has the favorites in the NFC right now. I was looking earlier today.

So they haven't had those like season-ending injuries that some of these other teams have had. like their guys who have been injured are all coming back. So, yeah, that was a, I mean, their pass rush hasn't been very good. So you add a player, you take a swing, and you see if he can help you. Eagles plus 380, Rams plus 440, which I think is really surprising. I would not have guessed that they had the second best odds. Lyons plus 450. Packers 5 to 1.

Seahawks 6 to 1, Tampa 11.1. I think the Seahawks should have the second best odds. I think they're the second best team in the NFC right now behind the Eagles. The Eagles have the pedigree. They have just a shitload of talent. They've been there before. We know what we're getting with them. I think Seattle's really good.

Those five are in the top tier. I think I changed my mind every single day. But yeah, I mean, you watch that Seahawks game from Sunday night and you're just like, man, they are explosive on offense. I trust their defense against great quarterbacks. Like if they had to face Matthew Stafford and I think they play in a couple weeks here, so we'll see. But like they're going to have a plan and they're not going to get blown out. their defense is too good to get blown out. So their offense is going to stay in it.

Yeah, those are, it's going to come down to just like, all right, who's healthy in January? But those, to me, are the five teams that can actually come out of the NFC. Yeah, one thing I like to look at, especially around now, is are you in every game? Have you played shit games? What's your record in either war games and stuff like that? The Patriots, I know that the schedule, by the way, is 16th strength of schedule.

It's not quite as bad as everyone. things, but they've played six shit teams. Patriots have only been, how many times you think they've been behind by 10 points this year? Behind, I can't remember in that Raiders team. 10 points, not a lot. Once? Yeah, the Raiders game weekly.

They were down exactly by 10. Seattle's another one. Like, Seattle has two losses, but had a chance to win both of those games. Like, they haven't really played a shit game. They haven't been behind. Like, you look at the Broncos. The Broncos have been behind by like 14, 10, 18. Like they, and they've climbed back.

But I think it's, I feel the same way in basketball. I think it's a bad sign when you're just way behind in games. And I look at, I look at Seattle versus like the Packers, where the Packers have just played a couple shit games. Yeah. The Brown's game was a shit game. The one last week, that Panthers game, that was like just a shit performance.

And it makes me not trust them. But I think that's the Matt LaFlorire in a nutshell. The Packers are never know when the shit game's coming. Yeah. Yeah. The Packers are the NBA team that regular season, you're like, and then they think they can flip the switch in the playoffs, which you know there's NBA teams. But the Packers, like, haven't done anything to warrant that. That's my thing with them.

It's like, if they were defending Super Bowl champs and this was happening or they always get there and you're like, oh, we've seen this before, like the Chiefs, you're like, all right, you know, we kind of know where this team's going to be. But they haven't done that yet they still just play with their food for a half every single game. And I think they're still really good. I think they have a high ceiling, but they are a pretty frustrating team to watch. The craft thing's massive. Huge. I just couldn't believe that.

Not to mention I had him on a couple of fantasy games, but I just thought he was really blossoming as like, oh, it's third and five. You know where they're going. He was really becoming one of those guys in real time. And I'm not sure maybe there's more Matthew Golden now. I'm not sure where are they going on 30? and eight. I think it's always a great thing to think about. I think this is the thing I worry about

with Buffalo. Like in a playoff game, we're down three. There's six minutes left. Where am I going on third and eight if Josh can't do something? Who is the guy? Is it Kincaid? Is it Cook coming out of the backfield? Who is your guy in this spot? The Pats have at least found Diggs, right? The Chiefs, they always have Kelsey and now they have rice back. Yeah. But yeah, Green Bay, I don't, I don't really know who that guy is. Yeah. Who's going to get you a bucket. It's man coverage. They're not playing soft. It's third and long. I'm with you. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that the Packers do have that guy. You know, so, so that's a big, I thought Kraft was the best tight end in the NFL. I mean, he was a beast. Like now Brock Bowers, I can be like,

all right, Brock Bowers now that he came back, he was ridiculous. I mean, that Brock Bowers performance on Sunday. He did in week one, got her, took eight weeks off, and he was, I mean, that was one of the best games anyone's played all year. They were like, though, they were just trying to take them out. They couldn't even take them out. They were just moving them around doing different things. Yeah. Very uncommon for a tight end can just like lift your entire offense.

But I thought Kraft had the belt before Bowers came back. And so you're losing. I mean, any of these contenders, you lose like your go-to guy in the passing game. I think it's a big, big deal. So who do you have in the NFC? I still am sticking with my preseason pick, which was the Eagles getting back to the Super Bowl, especially when you look at their division. and how it's going,

like they're not going to be needing to sweat that out down the stretch. So I think they're in a good spot just from a health standpoint. But I changed my mind every week on that. I had the Packers last week

or two weeks ago, so who knows? I had the Packers before the year. The crafting, I want to see what happens with Seattle over these next two, three weeks because people now know they're in a different space now.

This is like, hey, this is a real team. We've got to get up for this game. And I want to see how they handle it. But the Darnold thing was been a home run. We didn't know if that was like, Darnold versus Gino. How's this going to work out?

Is Darnold damaged goods? He was so bad. And Darnold's doing great. They can block. Yeah. The defense is probably, it has to be in the top three, top four, depending on what's going on with your defense, top three or top four. So I don't know.

If I had to pick from a value standpoint right now, I would probably do Denver with Seattle, which is, what do you think that is? Denver versus Seattle in the Super Bowl. Oh, my gosh. Just for a value pick. Plus, just got to be, man, 900? Am I close? It's 50 to 1.

Oh, my gosh. It's not even close. Well, put the Eagles in there instead. with Denver, and that's 36 to 1. You put Seattle with, let's say, Buffalo, 25 to 1. But I think Seattle, I think they really have a chance to get like a two seed. And if they get a two seed and they get at least that first home game and then the two three, they have two home games and then defense travels and they go into Philly potentially.

And I think they'd have a chance. But then you'd have Darnold on the road on grass, which, you know, after interception 3, You're like, why did I bet on this? Yeah. The biggest thing with Seattle is, like, the way they want to play offensively is they get, like, all the tight ends and the fullback on the field on early downs, and then you bring on your big, and then they create the, they do play action, and then they hit you with explosive plays downfield.

So my question with them is, like, if it's the fourth quarter and they're down by 10, and the defense is like, screw you, you can run the ball if you want to. We're not loading up to stop the run. Can they do it? They've only attempted 48 passes this season when trailing and against. game. It's by far the fewest of any team in the NFL. So I'm not saying they can't do it. Donald has looked great, but that to me is kind of what I want to see here in the weeks ahead. Like I said, they get the Rams in a couple weeks. They get some of these opponents that maybe

we'll see them in that kind of game script. But they've looked legit. There's really nothing to knock about the Seahawks so far. Well, and now a Shaheed. Who knows? Might tilt the field a little. All right. Before we go, give us 48 seconds on VJ. H.com and what is meant to these past six weeks. I haven't been this into a Sixers team in 25 years, and people laugh at me. They're like, what are you talking about? The last eight years, 10 years haven't been that bad. And I'm like, I've never just the watchability where I'm like, when do they play next? And like, I'm there at seven.

I'm going to pot it this time. I'll catch it on DVR. That type of energy that you have with a team that you love hasn't been there for me in 25 years. I knew he was springy. I knew he was athletic. I knew he was competitive. The basketball IQ on this guy, he is making. Unbelievable passes and just mentally sharp plays and his teammates love him.

And everything about him is just so exciting. So this is, yeah, they get McCain back later, I think on Tuesday night here. So the best part for me is that the whole is Embed playing. It doesn't matter. Like he, oh, M. Bid's going to the locker room. Cool. I'm still locked in and I can't wait to watch the second half with this team. So I have been just energized by this.

team this season. I don't care if they're going back to O1 Iverson. Yeah. I was in my favorite team of all time. That's the last time you were this excited. Okay. Senior in high school where I would just like. So we go through the 2012 when they almost snuck into the, I did like that team. Most Eastern finals with the Derek Rose. Doug Collins. That was fun. That was fun. All the process, 2018 when they lost to the Celtics. 2019 losing in the last second to Toronto. No? I wasn't, listen, 17 I was into it because it was like for the first time. They now have a, you know, they're finally back in the playoffs. But this, again, is just the, hey, it's a Tuesday. It's a Tuesday in January. They're playing the Hornets at 7 o'clock.

Do I want to watch that or do I want to, you know, watch catch up on Landman with my way? No, I'm watching the Sixers. So we'll watch Landman. That kind of energy is what really has me pop. Well, don't turn your back on Landman. No. Yeah. Maxi and Vijay, it doesn't, none of it, none of it, nothing else matters. You have every two guys, you'd be able to build around the Um, Edgecom is going to be in this contract for, I don't know, three, four years before they have to extend it. And, you know, if I'm Utah, if I'm a Utah fan and I could have potentially traded marketing, taking Paul George back, but gotten that third pick and that third and three and five and gotten edgecombe, that one would be haunting me. Because I, I wonder if that was possible. Mm.

Because Darrow was definitely shopping that three pick, trying to look at who was around. And, you know, anyway, it all worked out. I'm with you. When league passes on, I'm like, oh, the Sixers are on. This will be fun. Yeah. Like, they've just turned into one of those teams, whereas, like, I hated watching them the last couple years. I couldn't stand it.

They was just everything about it. The energy, the crowd was off. Now it feels like a Philly crowd again. Like, they really like these guys. So, anyway, congratulations. I was Googling some eight game plans earlier today. Bill, my daughter wants to go. Yeah, I'm excited.

Yeah. I can't wait. All right, you can hear Shee on the Ringer NFL show and on the Philly special and I'm going to pop on ringer NFL at some point in the next couple weeks,

maybe after the Pats have a good win that might be my virgin appearance but good to see you. Thanks for coming up. Can't wait. Talk to you soon. All right, as promised, this is the conversation

that Sean Fantasy and Ben Lathen and I had near the end of a rewatchable's taping on Monday that went for so long, we just decided to run it here and it's about movies and creativity and what drives people and all kinds of things and it goes all over the place

and we all had a really good time arguing about it and we just thought you know what let's run it here on the BS podcast so that's what you're about to see we tape this on Monday I was thinking about this if this movie came out today

this exact movie would people think it was good or terrible I would argue probably people would not like this movie if it came out right the exact same movie comes out tonight I feel like it would get panned it would be a streaming movie for sure

right yeah it would it just wouldn't going to theaters, a movie like this. I guess you could say that the most recent Austin Butler movie caught stealing is kind of like this movie, which is like a crime drama with a movie star at the middle of it with some kind of gnarly incidents.

But I mean, this movie costs $75 billion. Yeah. So this is my thing. But is the bar higher? Are the stakes higher now? Like, why would this movie, if it's the exact same movie,

why wouldn't it work now? Well, it's not that it wouldn't work. It's about why you, to me, to me, and Sean could probably give a more thoughtful answer. But when the movies like this are back in theaters, to me, that will be when that experience is back. Like, I look at films like this, cool ideas executed by really talented people for everyone to see. But you have to get up and go to the movies.

It's no IP. It's slightly smaller in terms of, like, what it's saying, I guess. At the same time, there's no IP, but this movie has a gigantic movie star, a legendary director, a big budget. There are reasons to go and see. something like this, but as long as movies that this movie would exist on streaming now, I think that's kind of the problem, at least. Well, one of them

probably, I would guess, the single most popular genre of movie on this show over the years. If you had to do, like, a data analysis of every genre, it's probably crime thriller, right? Yeah. Action thrill. Yeah, that's one of your favorite kinds of movies. Yeah. Those movies are really fun to talk about.

They're the most fun to talk about because they always have nip-pics. And those are movies specifically that don't work now. That you don't see coming out. They also all have like a hint of kind of being funny because there's some cheesiness in them. Yes. And that's completely gone now. And again,

I don't know why that is. De Palma has a big sense of humor. He doesn't do comedy ever, but he has a really good sense of humor about characterization. What's the specific thing about the action thriller that you feel like audiences aren't responding to? I think it's because it's just in, it's in the middle. And so there's no, it's like

this movie costs a lot of money to make. It's shot in like an arena with hundreds of extras. It's got a big set piece with this rolling ball coming down the hill. It has the trappings of a big movie. And this would probably be pandas a movie that was not profitable. Because it made a little bit more than its budget, but it probably ultimately lost money, although maybe with the DVD sales it didn't.

That's another thing. Totally. But now, if this happened now, and it was a $70 million movie that made like 95, the variety would write about how this movie lost money. Yes. Not profitable for DePaul. Maybe we should just shoot variety to the fiery pits of the sun. How about that idea?

I'm definitely sick of reading those stories. I don't know. Why do those stories exist? Why didn't they do that with the Dodgers? Like, the Dodgers won their back-to-back World Series, but they spent $330 million and they didn't make their money back. Fuck off. Well, so this is the deal.

Number one, and obviously you guys know I've played into this. I think that the economics of whatever it is have become such a part of what it is that we do. When people started reporting, you know, do you remember when Strip T's came out? One of the biggest stories about Strip T's was how much money she got paid to? do the movie. They gave her like $12 million or something like that.

I remember when Selena came out, it was like the first Latina actress to make a million dollars. That started us talking about the salaries of the actors and what it meant to be a $20 million actor. Started us on Will Smith and this movie. I think Will Smith and Jim Carrey were a big part of that in the 90s. And then you also had movies like Bonfire of the Vanities and Waterworld that were like the budgets were constant points of conversation.

But it also was the whole infrastructure of people writing and reporting this for the first time in a real way. They pre-did this with Titanic. The Titanic was a very troubled production. We talked about that in the pod. A lot of money. Everyone thought it was going to be a bust. But that has evolved into this entire section of discussing movies that is about how profitable the movies are.

And obviously people are listening. And they know I've talked about this stuff based upon the talent and the budget and all of that stuff. Well, the thing that you hear now, you hear maybe not normal people, but just general movie fans say things like, well, when you factor in the market, marketing, it's actually 70 million more. And it's like, you don't have to know that. Like, that's not important for you to know as a movie fan. I talk about box office all the time on the pods.

I do think it is important because it tends to dictate what kinds of movies get made. So it's valuable to kind of understand why movies are working and not working. But the race to be like this movie failed after six weeks, I always find to be really, really strange. No matter who's making it. It doesn't acknowledge the infrastructure we have now for movies where some people just wait until they're on Amazon or wherever. And they want to buy a streamer.

Or they want to buy a Blu-Rae. Or they want to buy a Blu-ray or whatever. But for variety or for whatever publication is doing it, they're doing it because it incites people. It's Stokes rage, yeah. It's Stokes rage. It's all the same shit. It's all the same shit.

It's like, what can get a headline in traffic and people to read this? The thing about the budgets for these teams, they're different because of just the amount of joy that people get from the team itself. There's always going to be a conversation, particularly in baseball, about how much the roster's costs and all of that stuff like that. But if a movie is a dud and it costs $300 million or $250 million like one of these Marvel movies, there's just a different experience that people have. But why do people care?

Like, I care in sports when the Red Sox get, you know, some pitcher for $180 million and the guy sucks. And it's like, well, that affects me because we only had like four big money spots to spend and we fucked this one up. I'm mad. Okay, I have a question. I don't care if Paul Thomas Anderson spent $100 million on a lot. a movie that we all liked. I know you're mad, but to me, that was the same thing as Coogler. I felt exactly the same about both of those experiences.

The Dodgers thing I wanted to ask you about, though, is the one thing with this Dodgers title is that this, I could be wrong about this, but I think this is the first World Series champion in which the 10 best players on the team were bought. Yeah. They did home grow Will Smith and Max Muncie, but every star on that team is a free age. or they traded for them. Now, that obviously reveals that the Dodgers

are willing to spend in other teams or not. But does it, in sports, does it change your mind at all? This changed in 92 and 93 with the Blue Jays, ironically. When they got Joe Carter

and Jack Morris and they went and got the best guys from homegrown guys from other teams. And we were all pissed off. I was pissed off. It's like,

well, they didn't do this fair. But now it's like, that's 30 years of baseball. I am chronically and annoyingly in favor of the little guy in all things. Like, to the great annoyance of a bunch of people.

I get it. The same reason why I guess I criticize the big budgets in the movies when the movies aren't profitable. It's because I'm always thinking about smaller creators. But I will admit this.

I will admit this. At a specific time, at the time we're in right now, where there are so few things that we can actually agree on in terms of things that are good, good art. When you get good art, it shouldn't really matter how much.

it costs because at this point there is just i don't know if people are paying attention to it there are a lot of great movies that come out there are a lot of great records that come out there are a lot of great albums that come out but the things that really to me seem like truly inspired art that people are making it and putting their all into it and all of that stuff it just kind of seems like there's not as much of that that i can connect to as i used to and i'm not saying that it's that it's necessarily true that people aren't making those things. I'm saying that there is something to be said, and I thought about this after some of the conversations

that we've had about one battle after another, after everybody on set not having to worry about anything other than just cooking, about everybody on set, just being able to, not having to worry about when the money going to run out or like when you're going to do this or how you're going to pay,

just everybody just worried about there's something to be said for that. And I think that concentrating too much on the financials kind of gets us away from it. Because that was not a conversation, I'm assuming when Snake Eyes came out. Nobody was like, was this profitable in the same way Babylon, which made like $70 million

and cost probably similar rents to Snake Eye. That was the only thing. Oh, this movie lost so much money. It flopped. Yes. You know what's interesting, though? In movies, this has always been a conversation and in sports it hasn't.

Like, I remember when I was a kid inside, I think it was inside sports. They ran an article, a cover story, about the first million dollar athlete, Nolan Ryan. And it was like the cover. It was like, these guys now make a million dollars. And I remember being a kid, like, whoa, that's a lot of money.

But it didn't make me think differently of the athletes. No. But in movies, talking about whether something costs too much. You go back to like Cleopatra in that era. Yeah. Did the godfather? Did this cost too much? Did they make a mistake?

Is this going to bankrupt the studio? This has kind of been the lingo for, I don't know, 70 years? Well, the trades are predicated on driving interest, but with the winners and losers' mentality. It's just an angle to talk, to criticize something. And to create panic for, oh, they could be done if this doesn't work. We're treading in a dangerous, like, I'm not attacking your territory. But I do think that the era of fandom did create a kind of like us versus them mentality amongst people, mostly online. In real life, people aren't like, I like this and I don't like this.

But people are very eager to rush to tell, like people love to tell me that one battle after another is a flop. Because they know that it's my favorite director, my favorite movie of the year. and they want me to feel bad, that it didn't make money. And that is a like, the thing that I like is more important and better than the thing that you like, which is a kind of insidious thing

that has happened in culture over time. That has to do with the nerds. And it's just a fact because I'll just be completely transparent. If you grew up, I'll speak for me. I'll speak for the nerd and me. If you grew up and for one rate,

and I know that you, we have a similar upbringing as far as it's concerned, if you grew up and you collected over 3,500 comic books, right? And you read them all the time. And constantly, constantly, constantly over and over again, that was something that was supposed to be niche and something, no matter how much people loved Superman,

or something that's supposed to be niche, was someone supposed to be weird, something whatever. The comic book revolution, the Star Wars, IP, revolution, all of that stuff was a validation of everything that you did in your youth. and you being able to do that stuff, do that, and talk about it and having that go mainstream, I remember I used to be on TMZ being like, you guys would call us nerds, and be like, there's no nerds, the movie made $2 billion, we won, right?

And those movies exist, they have to have gigantic budgets. They have to have huge budgets, but they are only validated. Nobody cares about how good Robert Donnie Jr. was in Avengers Endgame. Those movies are only validated if they make money. So the minute that they don't make money doesn't matter what The minute that they don't make money people shoot at them people shoot at them They go all right well your big special thing that you love or whatever It flop nobody cares nobody cares just like they never cared and then you just go okay well the thing that you love it flopped nobody cares

What's the difference and if the difference is just the the quality of the art that's always subjective That is legitimately there's there are very few movies that we can all agree. So that's always subjective. And that comes back to taste, which taste comes back to hierarchy, which opinions are actually important enough to be deemed important, which opinions are not important, which movies matter, which movies don't. That's a tell as oldest time when you're talking about art. Like, we have that same, that's a, that's a Jay-Z versus To Live Quali conversation. That's, you know what I mean? So, like, all of that stuff exists. But how does that explain why anyone would care if sinners or one bad,

after another spent $25 million more than they should have. Who fucking cares? That's the part I don't get. The response to the sinners thing was the fact... The response to the sinners thing was the fact that at least initially it seemed as if

those two movies were treated in different ways. Sinners had a gigantic open and the variety headline or at least what made it to Twitter was this movie opened big but... It's got a long way to go to become profitable.

But it was one news piece, though. It was almost like the Lamar Jackson, how one person said he should be a receiver. And then that just became everybody said he should be receiver. It's like, nah, I was one idiot. But you do understand that a movie that is that connected and that undergirded by a celebration of black culture, variety, which is by far to me, at least, the most relevant trade, taking that spin on a movie that opened big. It actually opened. it opened big that for

I'll just be honest with for a black man you're good but you're not quite good enough I'll just like okay fuck you guys Bill the answer to your one battle thing is why are people upset as they're not

no one gives a shit and these are like the 0.001% of people online who are not real people are like stoking these flames that don't know every normal person you'd see on the street would be like

I don't even think about movie budgets how much did it cost what does that even mean I liked the movie It's also just a context-free of, like, recency bias in terms of reflection on what a movie means.

One battle and sinners are made by the same studio. Like, the profits of sinners benefits the ability to make more movies like sinners and one battle after another. The second or third biggest movie of the year is Minecraft, which was also made by Warner Brothers. You make you don't make Minecraft to make an art film.

You make Minecraft to make money so that you can take chances on other films. That is the story of Hollywood. That is what made Hollywood Studios great. is that they had this fine-grained balance between, oh, you've got to make a wrestling picture because people like Wallace Beerie movies in the 1930s, they're going to show up, that's going to guarantee X number of dollars,

so then we can take a chance on something a little bit more audacious with an artist who we think is really interesting. That is a 100-year-old story. So if on Monday morning, when you're looking at the box office returns, you're like, man, this sucks, one battle. It's like it costs 140, and it's only going to make 207. Gosh, this could have been way better because you've got to factor in the marketing.

It's really disappointing. But that discounts the fact that it's, It exists within a system in a studio, and that system exists around all these other studios and all these other companies that are thriving right now. So it's just, it's kind of an incoherent fight that I personally am having every other day. And I'm a little exhausted about,

but I also feel complicit in because it just drives the discussion. You know, it really does keep people interested in this stuff in an ugly way. The only time I've ever cared is when the studios would spend money on two, this is probably a more of 2000s, early 2010's thing. They'd have the money to really splurge on like three things. And they were always the wrong three things.

And then if they did well, I would monitor that, I'd be like, oh, fuck, we're going to get more of this shit. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, oh, man, that worked. God damn it. So last thing I'll say about this is,

obviously you guys know I bring a ton of baggage and bias into this, right? Because... You? Oh, come on, man. Why? Baggage and bias would be... That's going to be the next vampire.

Podcast. Baggage and bias for Van Laughan. I bring a tough. Hey, everybody, welcome to baggage and bias. It's facts. And I own that because when they are choosing to overspend on these movies, they never do it with black creators, right?

So there's a scratching and a clawing. And it doesn't matter how good you are, what you've made, it's just there is a, you know, some of that's demographic. some of that's like, you know, what does it mean to have a four-quadrant movie and all of that stuff like that? So what I think is,

if we get back to just making cool movies, we're kind of back to that. Maybe. I was thinking a little bit about... 25 is a year, I'm going to think of that. If we get back to just making cool movies, I'm cool with a truce,

but I am completely unconvinced that in any type of way we're going to see, a situation where black art and art made by people

that don't run to town and sit in all of this stuff is going to be able to get $150 million and go out and not be profitable. I think you can point to sinners and at least say that's something that that is a movie

that nothing has really happened like that ever before. But the one thing I was thinking of while watching Snake Guys was MBJ is kind of at a similar place in his career that Nick Cage was in. He's like in his late 30s.

He's kind of done every kind of movie. He's done serious drama. He's done IP spectacle. He's been at the center of a sports movie. You know, he really... Legal trial movie. Yeah, he's been in the military movie.

Like, he really has touched all of the genres. He's tried comedy. Bad rom comedy, yes, that's right. Did that? People don't even fucking remember that movie. Did, like... We all agreed to talk about it. Yeah, people are not afraid.

But what's your point with him, though? Just that a movie like sinners is a movie that kind of like elevates you out of I'm a good star into I'm potentially going into a, like, forever mode. Like, there's going to be an awards push for him now, the same way the Cage got his awards push and that let him... He could make pretty much any movie he wanted for seven years in Hollywood after leaving Las Vegas. And his decision was, I want to make action spectacle.

But you can go in another direction. You wouldn't have the same clout that you had in the 90s, but it's interesting, like these guys, the decisions that they make at this point in their career also dictate the future of Hollywood. Like, Leo has spent 25 years being like, fuck it, I really like Scorsese. I'm going to get as many Scorsese movies

as I've made as I possibly can through the absolute center of my career. That has been his primary focus. And raise money to make the movies even. That's the whole story of Wolf of Wall Street. It's him going out and raising the money to get that movie made so that Scorsese could direct it. So it is also incumbent on the stars

who are at their center of movies to use their power to get cool stuff made and not just be cynical and not just make the same old boring action movie where they reach their quote, you know, like, and it's like, oh, well, I'll do it for Netflix, but I won't do it for Paramount because Netflix will pay my quote

and Paramount won't. You know, like, they really, you have to sacrifice something to get that thing no matter whether you're white or black or whatever in Hollywood. Yeah, I mean, look, like, you're not wrong. For me, I just look at there being such a contagion inside of the system of that, right? And there isn't, I mean,

We could talk about Michael B. Join, he's not Leonardo DiCaprio, right? I mean, Leonardo DiCaprio at one point was the star of the biggest movie of all time, right? There are things that factor into this that are different. One thing I do know is this, is that knowing as many people in this town as I do. Oh, I like that in this town. It's true. Wow. That are looking to create, all they want is story.

There's nothing else. There's no, for the majority of these people, there's no agenda. There's no nothing. They have things that are burning and inside of them, and they want to be able to tell these stories. And they want to tell them, sometimes they're going to be easy to understand. Sometimes they're going to be incoherent. Sometimes they're going to be great. Sometimes they're going to be bad.

Sometimes everybody just wants to get their shit out. And all of these other conversations are wrapped into age, old schisms that have existed in America since time and memorial. But we just want to watch and make movies. And that to me, sometimes we talk about a lot of other things, but we just want people to be able to make movies and watch movies and all of that shit. How are you grappling with the fact that perhaps the decline of the superhero movie might be the thing that actually saves original storytelling? I think everybody, I mean... Like, would you, is that a tradeoff that you're willing to take? Certainly.

I think everyone, it doesn't matter what type of movie is being made. The action star that we talked about before, Van Damme, Schwarzenegger, all of those guys, they got market correct. Cigar. Cigall. Those guys got market corrected. Stallone. They did. They got market corrected.

Their genre, their movie making. They were superheroes. They were superheroes. Their movies didn't last forever. So, like, we'll see what is next and we'll see what happens next. I'm good with it. I think it comes down to the same thing as always writers and directors. The thing I hear.

We always talk about who's the next movie star and do we need more movie stars? And obviously we do. And it's always nice to have them. But if you have the ideas and you have somebody who knows how to make it, you can win 12 games with Alex Smith basically to use a Kansas City Chiefs analogy. That is the

in this town thing that I hear the most is who's the filmmaker? Is there a filmmaker who can bring to a story this sense of event? That's the thing that everybody is looking for is how do you eventize something that

in 1998 maybe didn't necessarily need to be communicated like that but if you look at what the major studios are doing now it's like Warner Bros. putting their arms around Coogler and PTA and Zach Craigor this year. If you look at Universal putting their arms around, Daniels, Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, Jordan Peel.

These are strategies happening inside the studios where they're like, these, you know, Netflix is going all out for Greta Gerwig, for Narnia. Like, that is the move. That's the, and the problem is the thing that you're describing, which is that the studios don't develop the talent like they did in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. They don't let people take shots the same way.

You've got to make it for yourself. And then if you get lucky, you get noticed, and then you get plunged into the deep end. Right. Even those guys were talking about, though, those guys had to break the system. Like, these filmmakers, once again, not a new phenomenon. When you talk about, it doesn't seem like it now, but Lucas, Spielberg, the Palmer, all of these guys. Like, even the generation of actors that came before them, like Hoffman, Nicholson, all of those guys, they had to break a system. Yeah, they all were functionally worked in independent cinema.

Right. They had to break a system. And we got to a point to where a lot of this stuff got there needs to be, if not a breaking of it, but certainly a resetting of it. But people were romanticized the 70s, and the 70s were bockers. If you look at how they made movies back then, and then the 80s were basically all cocaine. But the 70s were just like, yeah, here's money. Just like the, I mean, how many books do we have about all the crazy shit that they just let people do?

Like, that's not coming back. The 80s aren't coming back. The 90s are probably the closest to where we need to be. How do you mean? What do you mean? Just like just letting people, letting young filmmakers or letting good filmmakers, giving them real money to make what they want to make. Well, then it's over.

I think it's coming back. I really do. I think it's just smaller. It's just smaller. But what I'm saying is, if there is no, like, that would be like taking away high school baseball, if there is, if there's no appetite for letting smaller, less established filmmakers get reps, work out story, and do all of that? That has to exist.

There's an interesting thing happening next year at the movies. There's this movie, 824 is putting this movie out called The Back Rooms. I haven't seen it. I can't remember the filmmaker's name, but he made these YouTube videos that are sort of like creepypastas. It's like an horror movie idea that he made on YouTube. And based on this idea, he was drafted by the studio to adapt what he made on YouTube into a feature film.

The film's got real stars. in it. He's 20 years old. And it is like it is the thing we're talking about. It's a studio trying to identify somebody really early on, giving them a shot. Kane Parsons. That's his name. I read about this.

I don't know if it's going to be good or not, but that's what Corb was talking about in his speech. The backrooms is not going to cost probably more than $5 million. Take more bats. Even if it's bad, it's worth trying. Because if you

if you did find one based off of his YouTube videos, then that's an annuity that's going to pay off forever if you're a studio, if you sign that person up. If you're trying to find the next Christopher Nolan, you've got to give them chances to try to make their movie. I think the 90s were the last time where this actually happened, though.

And there were a bunch of reasons for that. But I also feel like Kevin Smith, like... Yeah, and it was pre-internet. And I wonder sometimes does the internet in some ways make it less likely for somebody to just have an imagination to come up with a story because they have easier things.

You're saying the talent isn't there? No, I just worry sometimes that there's so many distractions. You think about when people make art, a lot of times it happens because they're bored or they have nothing else to do. And it's like, I guess I'll just write this chapter of this book I was thinking about. Or I guess I'll try to make this song. Or I guess I'll try to flesh out this movie idea versus like, I'll go on Instagram.

That sounds like the old guy, but I do really worry about that. I don't think to it's a great deal too. I don't think I've ever disagreed with one statement more. Let's hear it. But you don't have kids, though. I do. I watch how my kids spend their time versus how I spend my time. I think the idea of making a movie feels so arduous and long,

and now you can just get famous on Instagram. You can make smaller jokes. There's shortcuts everywhere. There's other ways to get your creativity out. I am not saying that kids are not preoccupied with other things right now. Yeah. Two things. One, the idea that people created out of boredom before,

to me just skips over the fact that like I don't think that Quinn Tarantino was bored I think Quinn Tarantino was... You're misunderstanding bored. But what else was there for him to do? He couldn't, there was no, no, no, no, no. He was obsessed. But I'm saying there was...

But the reason you became obsessed is because you had less to do. And the only thing he could do was make a movie. Now there's like a thousand other things you could make using digital tools that doesn't necessarily mean a feature film. But I get everything that you guys are saying. I'm not at all discounting. Hasn't Tarantino himself said if he were alive?

Now he's like, I would have never made it as a director. He said he would not have been a filmmaker. That's fine. I'm telling you right now. That's concerning. Like, I'm telling you, that's fine. I'm telling you right now, right now. I'm not even, I'm in no way conjecturing this.

Right now, there are thousands, if not millions of people that want to get their movies made. And like, they want to get their movies made. And they don't want to get their movies made. because they're bored. They want to get their movies made because... You can't weaponize the word bored. I'm telling you, like, people... People became passionate about stuff

because they had less options for what to do every day. I think you're both right. I mean, I think the thing is that there are still people that have always existed who have an artistic idea burning inside of them and they're obsessed with the medium that they're supposed to make it for. I have a couple of friends who are younger filmmakers.

A couple people who have interviewed on the show and become friendly with over the years who are in their 20s, Well, I'm like, this person is just born to do it. This is all they've ever cared about, and it doesn't matter that they're Gen Z. They love movies. They worship movies. They have something to say.

But there are less than there were because there is more around that you can put that energy into. Yes. Yeah, maybe it's more like distractions than being bored. It's just, I don't know. I wrote a book once because it was like, all right, what am I going to do late at night? I'll just do this. I think video games are an amazing... you know, kind of rejoinder to this.

Like, because the amount of time you can spend just playing video games and going into those worlds. It doesn't mean the people that weren't throwing themselves into sinophilia and seeing every movie ever and then still going out and making movies. Well, so that's a bonus.

Like, you can watch so many more things now. That's your passion. You can just be like, I'm going to watch three movies, four movies today. You know what I think is tainting, my opinion of this is like... Well, you know a lot of people that are trying to get shit made.

Well, I've produced some movies. But that's over there. though, that's a separate topic. Think about this when you're in your car. But when you're in your car driving, and you're at a stoplight, what do you do? Look at your phone. Right.

Yeah. What do you do when you shower? You listen to a podcast. The Godfather isn't available. Like, I still watch... But I'm saying... I still watch a shit ton of movies. But I think people are distracted way more than they used to be.

And back in the day, like, your imagination would run rampant because you didn't really have that much else to do. At a stop point, you just thought about weird shit. Partially, I think that's right. You guys, it could be. I'm telling you right now,

like, there's a guy, and I'm so weird that I haven't emailed them back, so maybe, there's a guy that emails me every single day, every day. Now you're just encouraging it. No, I'm going to eventually get back to him. I got to watch the movie.

He emails me every day about the movie he made. And every email is different. Every email is, like, this is a film that we came together and made in Toronto, It's about this and let me tell you this. Then the email on top of the email is, Van, they're like, I know I've worked as a radio DJ. I know so few of these emails get through about, and I've read every single one.

And not to crowd you out, but this dude also emails me. Does he? Yeah. Okay. But that's not about, but that's not about crowding me out. That just shows to me, that just shows me. He's hustling. Yeah, he's awesome. Like, how important it is that his thing gets seen.

and I get that people are creating all types of things. I get that they are. But guys, like, people out here are desperate to get their stories told. That's no different than 1990. I'm telling my story every decade of Noah. Every time I get a stack of Blu-rays from the same director out and put them in chronological order and take a photo of them and put them on Instagram, that's me making art.

I feel like Tarantino's saying that if I were alive now, no way I would have been a director as the, like the beginning and end of the argument. I love him, but he's a contrarian. I think that's also a whole shit. He's trying to fuck. I think about what I've written sports columns if I grew up 40 years later, the way

people grow up now. You'd be making awesome YouTube videos. You'd be breaking down the most amazing. I would have done something, but I don't know if it would have been the same thing, and I definitely wouldn't have read all the books I read. But what you did about Game 5 on your pod, if you were not who you are now, you would have found a way to do it in a different venue in that way

because that's the most consumable way. That's the other thing is that it's about wanting to be seen. Like, wanting your stuff to be seen. Everybody wants to be understood now. And everyone feels like they can be understood because we have this, right? It's harder to make a movie. It takes a year, five years. It takes a million dollars.

Ten million dollars. I will tell you this. It's harder to make a movie, but there's also no substitute for it. Oh, I agree. You know I agree with that. And so it's definitely harder. It's definitely harder to make a film. There's also no substitute for it.

There is, there is some kid, as much as we're talking about, we're leaving out one portion of it, which is inspiration. There is somebody that went and they watched sinners and they sat down. Right. And they were however old they were. And they saw the medium that was on the screen telling a specific story in a way that you can only tell it up there. You, as much as you would want to do it on your, you can't, the only way you can do it is if you take the cinematography, the action, the direction, the scope, all of that. Ten million people watch Ryan Cooler talk about the way you should watch and shoot the movie.

There is an interest for the art of storytelling, the relationship that you have between you and the screen, that to me, I see it all the time. Like, all the time. Like, people, like, shorts, all of that stuff, all the time. I think it's still very, very valuable. And I just hope that there's an... We agree with you. I know. What I'm saying is I hope that there's an ecosystem

that nurtures that for the next group of people. But then you got to remember the part that Ryan Cougar didn't just fall out of bed and make sinners. Like, that's like a 15-year journey. Exactly. That includes Fruitvale Station and somebody letting him do that

and him fighting to make it. You don't... My entire point is... You got to support it at the beginning. You do not get to sinners unless there is Fruitvale Station. Yeah. You do...

Ryan, When I went to the L.A. screening of centers, Ryan Cougler talked about why Omar Benson Miller is in the movie. Omar Benson Miller is in the movie because Ryan Cougar went to a screening when he was still a film student of Miracle at St. Anna. And he saw Omar Benson Miller in Miracle at St. Anna. And after that, congratulated him and said, one day we're going to do a movie together.

And then years and years after he's gotten the opportunity to make his movie, that opportunity and made the most out of it, he goes back and he casts that guy that was in that thing that he liked, like almost a decade before. That journey is how you get centers. But the problem is

Cougler is one of the most talented filmmakers we had in the last 20 years. They all can't be good. No, but I mean, he's like, that's like saying why can't we have another shade, Gilges Alexander? It's like, I think people are always going to watch movies and be inspired and say, I want to make a movie. That's always, that's always been

And they're always going to be there. It's just a little bit easier now, I feel like, to try for three years and then go, I'm going to start a YouTube channel instead. I'm going to start a podcast. Might if I go to the TikTok route? What if I express myself in a different way? This whole conversation is blowing my mind. Of course, you don't wake up to be Shea Gilliger's Alexander, right?

But he worked his ass off. He had to pick the basketball up. Yeah, yeah. Somebody had to nurture it. Somebody had to give him the opportunity to play. There had to be a game for him to play. There had to be a team that was like, hey, we'll take you and you will play. I'll tell you something else about him.

That actually makes my point. He is Canadian. 15, 20 years ago. He is. He is. I don't know if you guys know this. 15, 20 years ago, him being Canadian would have meant that there was not enough basketball culture where he was for him to, number one, see a game that he loved, participate in a game that he loved, and have the infrastructure that he needed to work to get to 10,000 hours to get great at the game that he loved.

So the fact that he as an international player or Wimby or whomever else all of these guys are, it shows that that sport is still evolving where people get opportunities. I guess where we disagree is I think this infrastructure has been here the whole time. I mean, we've had since Sundance and there's been the film school boom happened in the 90s. This has been 35 years of people kind of knowing. I don't even think there's that much disagree. going on there. That's what I was going to say is we're not actually arguing I do think what's interesting about it though is that we're talking on the Monday after the lowest box office

performance weekend since the 90s and the one of the reasons why that happened is because Friday was Halloween which is unusual and they were the studios were afraid to release a new movie on Halloween so there was no there were no new releases over the weekend and they were banking on the Colleen Hoover adaptation having a good carryover from the previous weekend And it's something that's been happening a lot, obviously, in part because there were strikes a couple years ago, but also just this past year, there are just weekends where no movies come out. Well, that goes to the, like, there are these big directors that these studios are rallying around. But then everything else.

There's like 10 spike weekends each year where it's like the Nolan weekend, the Spielberg weekend, the Kugler weekend, and then everything in between is just dead. This has been my big point in the last five years. It's just that the eventization is not going anywhere. movies like that will continue to happen. Couglers will come up through the system. The floor is falling out. The, like, the Andrew Davis, the guy who's like, goddamn, every Andrew Davis movie is

really good. But you never knew Andrew Davis's name. He made the fucking fugitive. He made Under Siege. He made the package. Every time you watch an Andrew Davis movie, you're like, out for justice. Like, this movie's going to be good. I fuck with it. But he wasn't famous. Like, that is the thing specifically that is going to me.

Well, was the guy that made the Dallas connection. You guys never saw that. Anyway. But I used to like Andrew, whatever. I used to like his movies, too. But this is what I'll say about this. You're right. That's why my thing is intentionality, always. It's intentionality.

Not whether or not you're going to get a director. It's like I always used to tell celebrities that would be mad that they were getting their asses kicked by TMZ. They would be like, van, I don't have any allies in the office. I'd be like, why don't you make one? Like, if you want an ally in the office, if you want somebody in the office that cares about your story, why don't you make one? Why don't you be intentional about what it is that you want to exist? And if you want an ecosystem for up-and-coming movie makers that are going to undergird, I keep using that word, the next generation of films, why don't you be intentional about it?

Now, I will say this. I think that other artists do this. I do. I think that other artists reach back and put people on. all the time. Be intentional about the fact that there's talent to be found and cultivated and developed over the course and that these stories, these stories that are about the changing landscape of society that, you know what?

I would want to watch. I want to watch the movie about the kid that's so bored that he starts making TikToks. And I want to see these stories. I care about their perspective. There was a great movie came out last year called Didi by this guy, Sean Wong. And he was a kid who was in like eighth grade. trying to make friends and a little detached growing up in, I want to say it was Central California?

I think it's the Bay. In the Bay. Sacramento, maybe even. Fremont. Fremont. Yeah. And YouTube is just getting going. And he starts basically trying to make friends by making skate videos,

having his own YouTube account that have like pranks on it, trying to find his way. And it's a nostalgic movie. But I'm sure, I know Gahau, we've talked about it before. Like, I know that that is a movie that resonates with people because it's the actual experience that you're describing. And that's like, Sean came out of the Sundance system and he, like, developed his skills over.

I think he worked at Google for a minute and then developed his skills over time to figure out how to become a better or better filmmaker. To me, like that guy, that filmmaker specifically is somebody whose studios should be like, let me put my arms around you. Your next movie is going to get $25 million. Make it good.

We're going to vet the script heavily. The executives are going to be hard on you, but we're going to make this movie good together. And then your next movie, if it does well, is going to get $75 million, and we're going to keep growing together. Like, that, to me, is the essence of the system

because it costs so much money to make movies that are at scale. Like, if you want to make independent films, that's a different story. Raising money yourself, being strategic, that's, you know all about that world. But the thing that I like and the thing that I'm talking about every week

is getting these kinds of movies in front of as many people as possible. Like, make a movie that can play on 3,500 screens. I really value that. Snake Eyes is an example of that. But getting it in front of as many people as possible, means it should be on Netflix. Well, that's, that is a, that is a, one battle after another, you know, like, there can be

both. There can really be, there can be streaming services making movies, and there can be studios putting movies in movie theaters. I, I, I think that there is no doubt about the fact that we are living in, uh, an ecosystem where there are movies that are just going to be for streaming. There are films that, like, I, like, I am not the best, I wouldn't saw everything, saw all the movies. It was the only place you could see him. saw all the movies. The DVDs came out in the 2000s, and they were going crazy.

So there were certain movies that I saw, and I never experienced them on the big screen. But as soon as them bitches came out, and they were playing on the big screen, I was like, guess what? Suicide Kings? Big screen? I'm going to see it. All right? So I get that. And I understand that that passion for the actual experience of going to, I know that that's different.

There are movies for streaming, movies for all of this. I see it. There's a two. type movie, I watch these movies all the time. I watch these tube movies that are set in New Orleans. I just want to see what people are talking about and what they're trying to say I watch these movies all the time, right?

I hope that the person that you're talking about is allowed to fail a couple of times. I hope that they're allowed to take chances on films that got decent budgets and that those movies came out and people didn't understand them, people didn't fuck with

them, and they're able to fail. Cooler is bad in 1,000. That is difficult. Yeah. Like, that is, that is tough. I just hope that some of these people that have this artistic sensibility, like Spike, some of Spike's movies, at the beginning, Spike was on a run. But then Spike would take chances, and he would make films that weren't for everyone, right?

But I feel like we're more enriched if there is a gigantic gumbo of creators and people that are allowed to create and have their say. That has to be nurtured intentionally. you have to want more people to have the opportunity to get their stories out. And you have to... I mean...

I don't know. I just don't buy it. I just don't. I think it's like gobbledy gook. Like, oh yeah, we got to have everybody to tell stories. Like, telling stories is hard. Putting the time in day after day

to make something good to learn how to be good at something. I don't think... I think some people want to take the shortcuts and they don't understand what kind of process it is. I get it. it's just really hard to make good shit. It's not as easy as I want to make a movie. Oh,

here's my movie. No, no, no. The whole thing is like this, this is a fucking process. It takes years and years and years and years to become even decent at something. And I really wonder sometimes if people realize that. That's the number one question I get asked all the time. How do I do this? How do I do this? And it's like, all right, you want to be a writer? What are your favorite books? Well, what do you mean? What are your favorite books? What book have you read the most? What do you mean read the most? Like read the, read it a lot of times? Yeah, have you read a book like 20 times and studied every page from it? I, like, I really think sometimes that people want to just get to the end without, without remembering, like,

there's a whole journey to get to the end. But you understand that that's not what I'm talking about. No, I know, but I'm telling you that's where I'm coming from with like being bored, the shortcuts, the whole thing. It's like, this is really hard. Right. And I wonder sometimes if people realize that. So I was thinking about this a little bit when you were talking about coaching people up in the TMZ office because the other thing is like you guys have both worked really hard but you're also incredibly talented

and charismatic and there's also just like some people just got it you know there is a just got it factor to some of this that like sometimes the person who just got it isn't nurtured or taking care of it doesn't have an opportunity there's no denying that

but sometimes some people just walk in and they do have it and if they work hard enough at it then they can make it happen but Van's a good example of this though you got all these reps for years, right? Did those reps make you better? Certainly.

But that was an unconventional path, right? For years and years, you just have to come up on the fly. And now CNN. Figure I'd interact with you. Yeah, now you're on CNN. You'd figure out how to interact with people. To figure out what work that didn't work, you could have a trial and error situation

where if something didn't work, it wasn't the biggest deal in the world because the platform, you know, was a little more forgiving. And over a while, you forgot to, you've figured out like, oh, this is my style. This is how to express myself. Oh, I'm getting better at this.

I have confidence here. But that's all the thing. Like, Craig and those guys have been doing the fantasy show. How many years have been doing it? Five. Like, if you went back and listened to the first year of the show, would you be fired up to listen to it? You'd be like, oh, my God, we sucked at this.

Why were we so bad at this? This is the whole thing. It's a fucking process. So there's a talent component. I'm not disagreeing with that. I think about when you talk about, like, me at TMZ, I wrote my way on to the TMZ, tour. Tiffany Drucker, shout out to her. She was a production coordinator at TMZ. They were looking

for tour guides. I sent out my resume, but the cover sheet of my resume, I wrote something funny, right? And when she got it, she's like, I had to interview you, even though we'd stopped because of what was on there, right? Then I get on there, and I get on the tour bus, and I mean, everybody else would do the tour. Me and Kalika would run the tour after the tour bus. We were get in the car and run the tour bus around town. Like in the car, we would drive and run the tour bus around town, and I would stop and do my whole thing. So when Harvey came on to take the tour, he saw it and went, hey, why don't you come

into the studio and do it? And then, boom, it kind of starts. I start there in April by June. I was on TV every day. All of the could, the, I'm not saying I'm not naturally charismatic, unbelievably handsome and tall and beautiful. You didn't say any of those things. I'm not saying that.

But what I'm saying is, though, is that there was an opportunity given to me. And there was an opportunity given to me by people who were like, oh, interesting, new, different. And then the X factor was the fact that every time I see an opportunity or a chance, I go, what the fuck do I have to do? That is a different thing. However, in this, where there are millions of dollars at play, there is sometimes some people that need to be able to look and look at somebody. and see people and go, huh, there's something there, what can we get out of it?

Talent capitalization. I see it, I don't understand how we're having this conversation. You've seen these movie studios. None of them have the wherewithal to do that. I don't think that's true. I don't think they're good enough to figure that out. You know what's funny is,

I'm not about to start glazing. That's just really hard to me. Yeah, I think that's crazy. I found PTA, he's 19. But PTA is like a prodig. That's very difficult. PTA was making like elaborate home movies

when he was 15. You're just not going to become PTA. It's not about being PTA. Because there's only going to, it doesn't matter if there's only going to be one PTA or two PTAs per generation. There are a lot of films out there that are better than the people

who actually created their films. There are a lot of films out there that are the result of a certain dedication to storytelling, a sincerity. There are people that made the story of their life and couldn't make the story of anything else, right? There are all kinds of situations out there where that exists.

Rap phenomenon, your first album is your best. Why? Because it's all in the... Your whole life story. It's your whole life story. What I am saying is there is a portion of this that in order to, whatever it is that we're talking about, whatever it is that we're talking about,

that if you want the next great anything, you have to invest into it. The NBA right now is in Africa. and they're investing money into Africa. And what you are seeing is a return on that investment. It's a return on talent that was overlooked. You can almost do this in any sport if it is the Dominican Republican in baseball, right? You see a bunch of people who have a passion for something.

They're using milk cartons as gloves. What if you gave them a real glove? What if you gave them a real bat? What if you took somebody that was 13 allegedly? And then you brought them to the Dodgers training facility. and you gave them what they need. After a certain point, would you get an all-star out of it?

Not everybody will be an all-star, hence the movie, Great movie. Not everybody would be an all-star, but you would get more all-stars than you would get, if you didn't do it? Like, you would get more... I just think creating shit is different than being good at basketball.

It's the exact same thing. I disagree. Because somebody who's creating something, it's the sum of a lot of the experiences they've had in life. There's also technical expertise that goes into it. It's the stuff they've watched. It's, did they care about this from the moment they were like six years old?

Like you, any of the great directors, none of them were like at age 20. Oh, I think I'll try this movie thing. These were people that from the moment they were like six were like seeing everything this way. And I don't, I just don't think it's like basketball where it's like that guy's six, eight. Maybe he'll be good at basketball. Some of it has to come from you. Like when you say like we need more stories, like, yeah, we do need more stories. But then that's got to come from the people and they have to care about the stories they're telling and the experiences they have.

And by the way, you have to learn from all the content that we have out there. Like, there's a lot that goes into it, I think. This is one of the great everybody's right conversations I've ever had. I don't really disagree with anything anyone is saying. I do think that movies are going to continue to be a little bit smaller as a business. It's not going to get bigger again. And we got like I've been getting my head around that for the last couple of years. Yeah.

And so, to me, the thing that I value the most, you could see it in how I try to book interviews on the big picture. The two kinds of interviews I'm trying to get are the filmmakers I really love or who have made a big movie and first time directors. Those are the, that's the two categories I'm looking for. Who is a new voice this year, the most recent ones, Ava Victor, who made Sorry Baby, and Alex Russell, who made Lurker. Two really cool debuts that I thought were really interesting. Talk to them, figure out what gets them excited, what's in. inside of them what's the thing that motivates them to do this and then how did they do it i always asked them like how did you raise the money to do this lady was like that she had a really

unconventional background yeah like an online comedian who is like making youtube videos and but there's more and more people that are coming out of that background that are doing that are trying to get into this work because they love movies like that's what you find out invariably is ultimately they do love movies but then there's like you know there's still a 180 people who are master filmmakers who I'm always interested and curious to talk to and I hope that they continue to get as much money as possible but it's that the thing in the middle that I'm talking

about is the thing that is not really there anymore and it doesn't even really matter what your background is like you used to be like a white you white guy you got a leg up you're going to be able to get a 75 million dollar movie made because it's got Steven Seagall in it that whole part of the world just kind of feels gone you know like caught stealing was treated like a miracle that had happened

because Aronovsky was like yeah I'll make like a shit eating New York crime movie and they'll put it on a million screens because we got Austin Butler. That was like the weirdest thing that happened in movies this year. And it didn't really do that well. So I think that there is like a much more global thing going on. Maybe it's boredom and a lack of motivation. Maybe it's a lack of opportunity.

I don't think it's a lack of motivation. I just think there's way more distractions than there used to be. There's too many things point people in different directions. How many times do you think Ben has gone to the movie theater this year? Probably five. Do you know what they would be? The biggest ones to go to and a couple of horror movies. I think his generation, horror movies,

seem to be the things that have a lot of life right now with, like, the under-25s. Like, they, you go to the, you got to see this in the theater. It's scarier that way, whereas comedies feel like they're just dead. Nobody's like, you got to see this comedy in the theater. It's so fun to be around all these people laughing.

No. That hasn't really happened anymore. Like, even go and remember when, like, the hangover came out or there's something about Mary. Like, I got to see this in the theater. Everybody loves this. And now it's like, oh, I'll just stream it. girlfriend or whatever.

I think even some of the streaming some of the streaming stuff they haven't really figured out how to, I mean, we can't really agree on what makes us laugh anymore, what you're supposed to be laughing at. I think kind of is the other problem. Maybe that might come back though. I haven't watched, I love L.A. yet, but to me, Rachel Sennett is like a prime

example of this where it's like 30 years ago she would have been a movie star. They would have been building movies around her for a decade trying to make it happen. They would have forced her down our throat. And now after a couple of movies, she's got a TV show on HBO. So I think there are a lot of ways to say what you want to say, and sometimes you don't

even have to put in the story, you just say it on Twitter and all of that stuff. I think there are a group of people, a group of creators, that will feel like they'll feel constrained by the limits of two minutes to tell their story. Yeah. They will feel constrained by the limit of what the reels can do to tell their story. And there is, until this changes, and maybe. Maybe it will. One thing I'll give the movie industry credit for is that they've maintained the prestige of what it means to be an important filmmaker. And all of these different disciplines, of all of these different disciplines, prestige is very important.

It is meaningful. You are taken seriously. You are lauded. You are looked at in a specific way when you are a good, important filmmaker. That's changing in a lot of other disciplines. I think, music that's changing a little bit. I think that's, but in film right now, if you can make a movie that literally gets people out of themselves, like we still revel when we talk about Denny, when we talk about

PTA, when we talk about all of these, we're still waiting for the next one. That has not gone away. I think people will chase the importance and the prestige and what it means to tell stories. But I also think this. I think legitimately there is some kid in South Louisiana

right now that looks around and his shit is fucked up and he's like i want everybody in enough i want everybody to see this a documentary ain't good enough i saw nickel boys i want to fuck with the camera i want to do some different shit i think it was people that when they saw clarksdale and sinners they were like you know what i come from a place just like that i want to do some crazy shit and i want people to understand this you cannot understand And no one can make a TikTok and make you understand Clarksdale, Mississippi, or the blues, or that culture, as much as it is when you see the sweat coming off to people. I think that's still meaningful. I just hope that we are really, really intentional, I'll say again, about giving people those opportunities.

Because your master filmmakers, they've always existed. And I respect them. Like, I respect them. Sometimes I watch movies, and then I'll actually stop the movie. and then go and then go look at the script because I'll be like, how the fuck is this written? I can't see how you would write that

if you wanted to do it and sometimes when you look at it is so fucking different than what is, I know you read a lot of scripts, it's so fucking different than how you would see and if it were something that you were writing they would be like, what the fuck are you doing? Well, the even crazier thing, it's kind of appropriate

that we're doing this with the diploma conversation but I was at the Academy Museum with my daughter on Sunday and there's a Bong Jo exhibit. See, at the Academy Museum with his daughter, she's going to grow up with a specific appreciation for film and going to the academy. She's going to turn 11 and turn on.

She might. I'm giving her opportunity to your point to learn. But she didn't really care about the Bongchunho exhibit for obvious reasons. She was very into the Greenwood and Spencer production design of Barbie. But I was able to explain to her very clearly because in that exhibit, which is really cool. Bong storyboards every movie. And he storyboards every single image he wants to see.

And they have the storyboards up in the museum. So I can hold her up and show her the images and say, this is a movie that I've seen. The man who made this movie saw the entire movie in his head before he made it. And while he was writing the script, he was drawing the movie so that he could create the images. This is something Martin Scorsese does.

He storyboards all of these shots. In that documentary, he designs all this stuff. so it's like it's both things it's like there are people who can see these things and who have these skills but also those people have been protected and supported over time and that's why my daughter

will be a master filmmaker case closed this is legitimately the last thing I say because I know that there's probably be broke out as a separate podcast this is the first episode of baggage and bias baggage and bias I will say this baggage and bias with Van Lathen baggage and bias I will say this

you guys realize that the bad NBA players are as important as the good ones. So you must have bad movies. Bad art is as essential as good art. Like, Michael Jordan doesn't exist if there's no one to compare them to. Okay, but you're leaving out the part that it's worse to fail in the 2020s than it's ever been.

And this is the thing that has not ruined writing, but really changed it and affected it and made it so much different than it was 15 years ago. And why the essay writing and features and everything seems so much more, there's a sameness and a blandness to it that just wasn't there when we were doing Greatland. Because people didn't care if they took a big swing. Now, everyone is always worried about getting filleted on the internet about whatever. It's why I think there's no Nick Cage's right now,

because Nick Cage's, like, authentic, weird self would get destroyed in a movie now. But you almost can't speak about this because you feed off the heat. You're like fucking Razor Ramon. You're like, yeah, give it to me. But this is, these are the TMZ reps. Right. You developed your thick skin. Yeah, it callets me over.

There's still sometimes they get to me. But it, but it, it, it callos me over. But what I am saying is, Tyler Shuck jokes still hit the deal. Oh, fuck that shit. What I'm saying is, it is essential. Failure is essential. And when I, and when I, and you say that, this is, this is where you do the van thing. Most people don't want to fail.

They don't want to take a chance and fail once, but you have to fail to be good. at something. You have to take chances. Sometimes it's not going to work. I've been potting for almost 10 years. I'm still waiting for my first good pod. The ability to embrace a failure and be like, that didn't work. I learned from it. Now I'll do

this next thing. I think is really scary to a lot of people. And part of it is from how people grow up now, how people, what they're told, what they read, how mean people can be online. There's a whole bunch of factors that go into it. Part of this, what I'm talking about is maybe us

changing our relationship to that. I saw a movie. That's another one. How's that going to happen? I saw a movie earlier this year by somebody who I know is a talented filmmaker. I know for sure they're a talented filmmaker. I could see it in the movie.

The movie itself is just not very good. It's just not that good. But you can look into the movie and see pieces. You can see it. I could see that with Jake Loravia, though. He's so close to being good. He went for like 32. He spent pretty good.

No, he's been pretty good. Well, now he's been good. Stop being racist towards white people. The whites are saving the Lakers. If he was, Darius Washington, La Ravia, you would be like, The Lakers need the weights. The Reeves La Ravia two-man game was Friday night? Going crazy.

Wild. Right, going crazy. The maga pick and there will be great. But what, like, what I'm saying is that, like, there has to be, I'm just talking about, I'm talking about believing in people. like everyone believes in people I know I know you keep like

you keep like presenting like you have like this magic elixir the most noble point of view which it is noble I'm not saying it's noble I'm just saying no no we have 35 years of film schools

and scholarships and sundance I'm not I'm not they could be doing more I'm not saying they definitely can we are I'm not saying it to sound noble

I'm not even saying it to be noble I'm saying it's legitimately the only way the thing keeps going. I agree with you. I agree with that. The only, that's why I'm a little bit. Got to give me more people more shots all the time. It's the only way you find it. Totally agree.

I'm just curious, like, who's giving them more shots? We've already established none of these movie studios give a shit about anybody. That, I mean, that is a real problem. That's never changing. That's been movie studios for 100 years. That's not true. What's not true? What movie did PTA make after Hard 8?

You made boogie nights. Now, now how now how difficult of a sale do you think of a They drogan nights because they thought it was going to make money. That's why they greenlight every movie. They definitely thought it was going to make money, but also it was just a cool fucking idea. Because the guy was a fucking prodigy. I understand, but there are so many films, though. Very specific time.

Indie films are taking off. Mike Toluca, like, really wanted to work. The Weinstein era was like all of the independents. Everyone was looking for young filmmakers. It was like a moment in time. As we give. That can happen again. It should.

It's happening. It can happen. No, it has to. Yeah, well, and it has. It has happened. We just talked about one battle after another, legitimately, if somebody doesn't go, oh, my God, look, interesting, this guy, great, amazing,

then you don't, the movie never happens. And by the way, not only does the movie never happen, but you then get you get... You can't mention PTA, though. That's like saying, Janus is great. We got to find more people from Greece. Like, Ptea is like a generational prodigy. What do you mean? It's like saying

Janus is great. He's literally named the freak. But do you understand the freak? But do you understand what I'm saying, though? Petey was making 8mm 90-minute movies when he was 15. So think about this, though. What is Janus? Yonis is a physical freak. But he's also the eventuality of...

With an amazing work ethic, just let me get in. I see what advantage is. He's also the eventuality. Investing in Europe. Yes. Spreading in the game around the country. Yeah. So Janus did not just happen because of an individualistic set of circumstances.

That's part of the... reason why he is who he is. But in 1986, there would have been a Janus who would have never made the NBA because we weren't there yet. This is another way of thinking about this. You've both made a good point, which is that also movies have just become internationally democratized in a way. And there are many of the biggest movies of the year not made in America anymore.

We thought of America as the absolute Hollywood movie making for forever. But Asia makes so many of the most popular films around the world. European cinema is still pretty strong, not as strong as it. used to be, it's still pretty strong. You know, there's obviously African cinema, South American cinema. Like, these are things we don't watch. Bollywood is still massive right now.

We're watching anime coming out of Japan. It's enormous, even in this country. So it's not, it is kind of like what happened in the NBA like 20 years ago, where it was like, oh, wow, the All-Star game is actually 40% European, and it's going to increasingly be moving in that direction. It's going to be all-UPA this year. It's going to be all Europeans it looks like.

I'll tell you this. So I was, I've been working on, I think I'm going to do a podcast, and I thought I was going to already do it. But, as you know, I feel like I'm sports movies. That's been my favorite thing to write about. What? I was going to do the 20 best sports movies of this century. Okay. So I've been kind of watching them on the side and we've done some of the movies.

No, so I really love the way back with Affleck. Me too. I think that's a great movie. And I think that's probably my favorite sports movie this decade. But anyway, I was watching in the last week. And then the movie ends, and it's like directed by Gavin O'Connor, written by Brad Inglesby. That's like... Well, that's why that movie's good.

Yeah. Yeah. And Affleck, by the way, is probably the best he's ever been in a movie in that movie. But it's also the pedigree of the writing that he had and the person who directed it who is a fucking artist. Yep. And you need all of these different pieces to have a good movie in it, you know. Did you see... I think that's...

I mean, with no disrespect to Gavin O'Connor, whose movies I love. But the next movie... that Gavin O'Connor made also starred Ben Affleck and it was the accountant too. And the accountant isn't very good. Like, the account two isn't very good. And that movie was made because it needed to get made because it would further people's careers and be good for the studios. And it's like, I legitimately think Gavin O'Connor is a gifted artist. But that is actually a testimony to how fucked up everything is right now.

What's the robot lady movie that we, that they kept in? Companion. Did you see that? Yeah. Did you like it? I really like the performance by the lead. Sophie Thatcher She's terrific

I think she's really good I think she's really great too I didn't really like the movie I would never want to watch it again Are you out on Jack Quaid Not only did I like it I loved it I liked it a lot

I loved the movie I thought it was fantastic Robot lady Everybody Robots We don't know who the robots Are very cool All set in one place All of that

Remember I watch movies Remember worth winning With Mark Harmon Had you ever seen that Remember that Mark Harmon You always pull this move. He just say in a movie

from some 30 years ago. Remember that movie? That was good. And often it was. But it's a totally unimportant movie. That's my thing. My thing is it's like worth winning with Mark Harmon, where Mark Harmon plays a handsome weatherman who is trying to figure out, I think, what lady

to marry or something. Like, it's a totally unimportant movie. I get that the way back is like one of the best sports movie and they had all of these guys behind it. But sometimes good movies are like totally unimportant. They're for the moment.

There are films to be consumed and ideas that people had. So there does not have to be a murderer's role of creators behind every film. Do you think there should be a movie about Gooner culture? Yeah. I'm already writing that.

I write it every day. I was wondering if the three of us should write a film for Carla Gugino. And Gooner culture? This podcast itself is a bit of a Gooner. Yeah. It really is. Anyway. We should have invited

people to a theater all gotten together. Yeah, I guess we should probably wrap it up. Probably should wrap it up. Getting a little lightheaded. Me too. I need something to eat. But the last thing I'll say is, y'all talking all of this? Y'all do this every day.

Do what every day? Every day I see people that used to be a fucking PA or an intern or a producer or all of that shit. Every day I see talent developed at the ringer. Every day. I see capitalization of people. Here comes the glaze. It's not glades. That's the other bad podcast.

Can I be real? It's a secret of baggage of bias. Here comes the glaze. Can I be real with you, though? The only reason why I'm, this would be a huge hit. Here comes the glaze. The only reason why I'm saying that, though, is because I come from a place where that kind of didn't happen as much.

I'm blown away with the young people that we have at the ringer and how, and, like, how they do it. And so I'm, I can't believe you, I can't believe you. I can't believe that you are against young filmmakers and young filmmakers. Just stop. I'm fucking with you. I'm fucking with you guys. So just takeaways. Bill says no more opportunities for young people, especially filmmakers of color, absolutely.

My takeaway. Done. Here's my big takeaway. Go to TikTok. Use your imagination. Yeah. Read. Watch stuff.

Sit at a stop light. Just look around at the lights. Yeah. Buy physical media. If you can afford it. By physical media. Learn from the best people. Watch the Mac.

By the matter, true romance. Best being subjective, but yeah. Watch Jake LaRavia, see how he worked hard to get where he is today. Even as a white American. Is he American? Is he American? I think he is. Okay. And by the way, now we have to, now we have to respond to that guy and...

He do. I've read every email. Tell him I've read them too, but I won't be responding. Yeah, I know. Sometimes you can't, but I've read every email. It's secretly me. It's my script. Is it you?

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Shield. thanks to ban, thanks to Sean, thanks to Ghao and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Thursday at some point with the third podcast of the week and new rewatchables coming on Monday. So I will see you on Thursday. Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming.

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