The Bill Simmons Podcast - Davante’s Vegas Move, Giannis’s MVP Case, and NBA Wife Conundrums With Benjamin Solak, Rob Mahoney, and Callie Curry

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Benjamin Solak to discuss WR Davante Adams’s surprising trade to the Raiders, and the impact on the Packers, Las Vegas, and the AFC West (2:10). Then Bill talks with Rob Mahoney about Giannis Antetokounmpo’s MVP case, Kyrie Irving’s stellar performances, Eastern Conference playoff speculation, the impressive Timberwolves, surprising NBA standouts, and more (26:04). Finally Bill is joined by Callie Curry to discuss Steph Curry’s injury, her husband Seth Curry getting traded to the Nets, the season finale of ‘The Bachelor,’ the upcoming season of ‘The Bachelorette,’ and more (1:00:27). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Benjamin Solak, Rob Mahoney, and Callie Curry Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

coming up on the BS pod, a big football trade, some NBA talk, and then some reality. Another great podcast. It's all next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good.

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Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Hope you checked out the rewatchables. Van Lathan and I did Titanic. Hope you checked out the Prestige TV podcast where we were covering a bunch of great shows, including Mrs. Maisel was up there.

Bridgerton, a primer heading into season two. We're going to be doing whatever. We crashed. We're doing that one. The dropout. Yeah. Go to the Prestige TV pod. You can go to our football pods as well if you want to hear more about this Devante Adams trade that Ben Solak and I are about to talk about.

And if you love basketball, we broke down the tournament on a whole bunch of different places. The mismatch, the ringer NBA show, Rossello show. So I know you're enjoying the tournament. You can listen to this with tournament muted. You can watch basketball and listen to me. We're going to talk to Ben Solak from the Ringer about the big Devante Adams trade. We're going to talk to Rob Mahoney

from the Ringer about a little NBA check. And more importantly, could Giannis actually win the MVP and some other plot lines we're watching heading into the third to last weekend. And last but not least, Callie Curry is going to come on. She's going to tell us

what it's like for the family of a player that gets traded, what it's like to bounce around when you're part of an NBA family, and then we're going to talk reality because she is on the Bachelor Party podcast and the Ringer Reality feed. She's great.

Talking about The Bachelorette. What's the future? What do we do? What do we do with this franchise? Is it working? How can we fix it? What would an NBA reality show look like? We talked about all that stuff.

It's really good. This is a good podcast. I'm getting it for free. I'm jealous of you. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, there's not a lot of NFL moments that would lead to me forcing Ben Solak from the ringer to call in from an airport on his phone. But we're going to do it that way.

Devontae Adams traded to Las Vegas and they only had to give up a first round pick and a second round pick. They had to give him five years, $141.25 million. According to reports, they're doing that every time because he's Devante Adams, second best receiver in the league. Somehow they're doing the best receiver in the league thing. Everyone, Cooper Cup, I see you.

He's at least Adams the second. He might be first on some people's list, but this was a bomb. Ben Solak, are you surprised? I'm surprised. I'm definitely surprised. There was a smoke around this idea that Adams wasn't going to budge on his contract figure and that the Packers were going to be able to work under the cap.

And Adams said explicitly, I'm not going to play under the tag. But usually that smoke dissipates. Usually something happens, right? Somebody's hands get shaken. We're going to play under the tag, but usually that smoke dissipates. Usually something happens, right? Somebody's hands get shaken. All right, we're going to come up with this and we'll do you right in a couple of years. We'll restructure.

And especially when Aaron Rodgers comes back into the fold, you're thinking to yourself, okay, good on Devontae, good on Devontae's camp for making sure he gets paid, but this will come to a natural conclusion that leads him to Green Bay. How could it not? They have no other receivers.

They brought back Rodgers for the playoff push. There's no way Adams leads. But it turns out where there's smoke, there's fire. And the fact that Derek Carr and the Fresno State Bulldog connection was strong enough to pull Adams away from Rodgers and Green Bay is really, really incredible.

So there was smoke, but still this does catch a little bit of a slack jaw that really Devontae Adams is out of Green Bay. So I'm going to start here with my, this is my big take. You ready?

Great career move by Devontae Adams. Like really, yeah, wonderful stuff. So here's what he does. He becomes the highest paid receiver in the league. He dumps Aaron Rodgers

and all the drama and gets rid of a 38 year old QB who might be headed the wrong way. Who's about to hog the salary cap in a major way of next couple of years for his college buddy, a guy that he's hung out in dorm rooms that he loves and trusts. He's finally the most famous guy on his team. He traded Green Bay for Las Vegas, not a small trade, and enters a high-profile division. And he has Josh McDaniels as his coach. This just feels like a win all the way around. If I'm Devontae Adams versus being back in this Green Bay thing, you've already seen what could happen with Rodgers the last couple of years. You couldn't get over the hump with him. Now he's taken up even more

of the cap starting after next year, and he just gets his fresh start, and he's the man. Now it's like, do people even know what Devontae Adams looked like? Could most people even recognize him if he was in their living room right now? No, it is a worth a question. Like you brought up, Adams isn't the clear-cut wide receiver one because of the season that Cooper Cupp had. But right now, if you were pointing a gun to my head

and asking me to predict who's better the next three years, Adams or Cupp, really Adams or the field, I'd probably still say Devontae Adams, even with him outside of Green Bay and not with Aaron Rodgers. I do want to ask,

how much of that good career move is baked into the money? Because there were a couple Packers reporters, like, that the Packers were willing to pay him the same amount. And Adam said, no, I'm out of here, and I'm going to the Raiders and going to do it with Carr. So how much of it being the best

career move is the money? Because apparently the money could have been equal. So that was really surprising. And it's going to lead to a lot of conspiracy theories about Aaron Rodgers and his role in this over the next couple of days that Adams just wanted to get away from, you know, Greg Jennings, you know, he'll be popping on shows talking about Rodgers is a diva, but big week for Greg Jennings. Oh yeah. Greg Jennings, Greg Jennings agent, just a kachinging it right now. But with Rodgers

and Adams, it is a little weird. There was a moment a couple months ago when Adams went out of his way to praise when Rodgers went out of his way to praise Adams. I don't know if you remember this, but I think it was on a McAfee show or it was a press conference.

And he just spent like 90 seconds on it. And it almost seemed like he felt like things were slipping away and he just wanted to get it out there, what an awesome teammate Adams was. And hey, just, you know, they want to get on the record. And I remember filing that away. Like, that's weird. That's strange that he felt like he needed to do that.

So maybe he felt like either Adams was slipping away from the organization or Adams wanted his own team in a new situation. I don't know the answer. What do you think? I don't fully know. I don't know if it's 100% Rodgers. I would 100% get it if he was frustrated with Rodgers. I think every single person in the NFL sphere, Green Bay Packers or otherwise,

was frustrated with Aaron Rodgers at some point this year. There's also, I think, a clear message from Brian Guttenkamp and from Mark Murphy, kind of the brass there in Green Bay, that they are going to run the ship the way they like to run the ship. And if that means that it pisses off some star players, that means that it pisses off some star players. Like, we got to remember the first big moment in this Green Bay saga was Aaron Rodgers after the NFC Championship game loss, excuse me, the NFC Division Round loss to the Buccaneers two seasons ago,

where he stood in front of a bunch of reporters and said, I don't know who's going to be back next year. I don't know who this, you know, the Packers in this front office is going to invest in, right? And that was about Brian Bulaga. It was about Corey Lindsley. And then we later learned when Rodgers spoke in the summer, it was about Clay Matthews.

It was about Randall Cobb. And it was about guys that Rodgers, over the course of his career in Green Bay, believed deserved to be treated right that weren't treated right, that weren't given long contracts, that weren't assumed to hang on during their veteran years. And that might be good business by the Packers in saying, listen, we're going to get out on guys early. We're going to let 30 plus year old guys go. We're not going to overpay for our homegrown veterans. But Rodgers had been there long enough to see that that was the way they were doing it. And he wanted to call

them out on it. And I wouldn't be surprised if Adams had a similar experience with the brass in Green Bay, where Adams probably said, and rightfully so, I deserve to be the highest paid receiver in the league. Look at DeAndre Hopkins, $27 million per year. Look at Mike Williams getting $20 million per year. Look at Mario Cooper getting $20 million per year. I deserve to be heads and shoulders above those guys and encounter some resistance. I think Green Bay's brass has developed a reputation that they kind of jerk their star players around a little bit and, and, and believe a lot more in their process as opposed to like really investing

in the stars. That reputation, I think is starting to hurt them. I think you see the repercussions of that, not a hundred percent in Adam's decision, but at least it's there a little bit. Well, and that's part of the problem.

They're the only team is, it's been said a million times that doesn't have an owner, you know, like a full fledged person kind of, yeah, kind of watching the house, a big winner in this, obviously Derek Carr, but a big winner also because, you know, he was, he's on a really good contract right now for the Raiders and he's, I think entering the last year of it, but I think dollar for dollar was probably one of the best deals of any starter other than the guys in the rookie deals. Absolutely. Yeah. And there was a feeling like, oh, if they wanted

to trade him, if they want to get in on Deshaun Watson, or if they wanted to trade for Aaron Rogers, when it seemed like Rogers is tradable, like car is actually a good chip in a, in a con in a trade like that because of his contract, whatever. Now I'm guessing he's there long-term. If they did this Adams trade and that's his buddy and they've always dreamed about playing together again, I think Carr stays there long-term, which means that they're going to be doubling down here for the first half of the decade with Carr and Adams

and Renfro, Waller, and then they got Jacobs for at least another year. That's a pretty nice situation for Derek Carr right? I would say that's arguably a top five weapons situation so we'll see how good he is I thought he was pretty good last year but I don't want to leave that situation

so if they cut the check that's it maybe he retires with the Vegas Raiders for all we know right I very much agree so right now Derek Carr has a cap hit of $19.8 million, which is extremely low for a starting quarterback. All that money, by the way, is base salary. None of that money is guaranteed. That's all game check.

So firstly, Derek Carr's agent is on the phone with Dave Ziegler right now saying, hey, you aren't extending my boy. Like, there is no way I'm letting Derek Carr, who clearly you're building this passing game for and around Derek Carr. I'm not letting him play out the final year of his deal on 19 million or 20 million.

None of it's guaranteed. So I very strongly expect that we see, like you say, Derek Carr extension get built out at some point in the offseason. It might even lower the cap it for this year to help them make some accompanying moves because you're right. The weapons are really good. Jacob, Hunter

Renfro, Darren Waller, and Ed Fonte-Adams. The line is still a problem. And one of the last things that the Gruden-Mayock Raiders did is they really gutted the line. Rodney Hudson to the Cardinals, Gabe Jackson to the Seattle Seahawks, Trent Brown left the Raiders.

They have right now Colton Miller, who's a great left tackle, and then it's John Simpson, Andre James, Alex Leatherwood, a first round rookie, the last pick of that Mayock tenure, who was really, really rough as a rookie. This line is not good. And so I love the weapons. I love the way Derek Carr has been playing. He's in his early 30s. He's a solid pocket passer. Doesn't make mistakes. If you have good weapons and a good team around you, he will bring the ship home. But pressure will kill this Raiders team if they don't take

the offensive line. That's what remains. They don't have that first-round pick. They don't have that second-round pick. But they still have a decent amount of money

and could probably restructure a little bit to open up more. Offensive line should be the focus of the team coming into the 2022 season. Well, they're not going to be using their first two picks

in the draft on offensive line help because they traded them. At the same time, if you had told me as I was going to bed tonight last night davante adams is getting traded what do you think the price is i just would have said two firsts i especially like you know when you think of what the price of some of these other ones were like for what Wilson got. Wilson's really expensive, um, hating his mid thirties and he really, you know, didn't look awesome the last couple of years, but he got a really good haul.

Um, it would seem like one first would be too cheap. I'm kind of stunned by the one first, one second, but you know, the, the quick consensus just scrolling through tweets where like the contract is so expensive that that kind of prohibits the price that you have to give up. I don't know if I agree with that. What did you think of like just a first and a second,

that's it to get Devonta Adams? I get the argument in terms of like the money is so much. We got to remember the Packers were willing to pay him that money, right? So it's not like the Packers were saying, Oh, I guess,

you know, there's no way we're keeping him for short changing. The reports are the Packers are willing to pay him that money. I think when you look, when you look across the course of non quarterback trades over the last several years, typically when a guy who is arguably the top player at his position gets traded,

we see multiple first round picks involved. He was a Jalen Ramsey trade. Went from the Jaguars to the Rams. That was two firsts and a fourth. We had the Khalil Mack trade, which was two first round picks and a second. Yeah, two first round picks. And then they got a second back from the Raiders. But still, it was two first round picks.

Went from the Raiders to the Bears. And then Laramie Tunsil. He was shipped for two first round picks when he went from the Dolphins to Houston. And I would argue at the time, Tunsil was clearly not the top left tackle. He was one of the top rising left tackles, one of the top young left tackles, but he wasn't the top guy. So if you're going to get traded... And Jamal Adams.

Jamal Adams is another one, right? That was two first-round picks, too. And man, how did I forget Jamal Adams? Because that's such a good case where safety, you would probably argue, is not as preeminent, not as premier a position as receiver is. So typically when the top guy gets traded at the non-quarterback position, we are seeing multiple first round picks.

So if you're telling me a one and a two and then nothing else for Devante, okay, yes, I did make him the highest paid receiver by a mile in the league, but I feel pretty good coming away with that exchange. I don't think the Packers got their pockets run. I don't think they got drastically shortchanged. But I would say it's a good deal for the Raiders. And I'm sure they were happy to just send a one to the two. Well, if you're the Packers, if you're rooting for the Packers,

you live there, whatever. They trade the most fun guy on the team. They trade a guy that I remember listening to you on a podcast last year where you just basically your brain broke describing all the ways they use him, where it's just like, he's the one receiver in the league. He could be outside, inside and like whatever you want to do with him, he could do. He's the Swiss army knife of receiving patterns. Um, So now you lose that guy. You don't really have a replacement for him.

And your team's hitched its wagon to this 38-year-old guy who's been all drama for the last couple of years and who didn't really totally seem like he wanted to be there. And you might've missed your window. And now you're looking at this situation, which you already lived through in the mid-2000s with Favre, where it's like the last place you want to be, a little like the Lakers and LeBron,

obviously where you're tied to this expensive aging superstar who wants everything to revolve around him, but you don't really have a chance to win the title. I guess my question is, is how do they have a chance to actually compete for a title? If you remove Adams from this and replace them with the 22nd and 55th picks. How is this still a title team? They don't.

I would not consider the Packers in the top echelon of NFC contenders at the time. Wow. They have, they have nothing at receiver, right? This isn't like, Oh,

you know, when Darren Waller went down for the Raiders, like use an example, the Hunter Renfro had some really nice games and, like, oh, you know, when Darren Waller went down for the Raiders, to use an example, Hunter Renfro had some really nice games and, oh, you know, Zay Jones stepped into a decent number two role that apparently got him a ton of money with the Jaguars for some reason. Listen, this is

Alan Lazard on an ERSA or Exclusive Right free agent deal. Maybe Randall Cobb, who they probably have to cut because they still have cap problems. They need to find other guys. Amari Rodgers, Rico Gafford. Can I introduce you to Josh Malone?

Like there's nobody on this team enters the receiver room. We saw what happened against the Niners when in that playoff game, the only people Rodgers were comfortable throwing to on the field were Devontae Adams and Aaron Jones. He just lost one of those two guys. You're going to throw

to Jones 12 times a game behind the line of scrimmage? There's no receiver talent in this passing game right now. And okay, sure, maybe they can run the ball well. The team is good at opening guys. Yeah, but it's not... That'll play in the regular season. That'll win you 11 games. NFC North, bad. Sure, win

the division. You ain't making a playoff run with that. NFC's weak, but it's not that weak. We've got to see what moves passers make because, like I said, they should be able to open a little bit of space. They've been in the veteran market now since before this news. But I do not consider them on the echelon of the Rams,

even after losing Vaughn. I don't consider them on the echelon of the Bucs. I don't view them as a competitive community NFC. And then you have Brady who goes, I feel like one of the reasons he came back was because the NFC was, you know, he just probably felt like it was wide open the more he looked at it. I really do think that he thought about that.

And now it's even more wide open on the flip side. You have McDaniels goes to Vegas. And one of the first things he does is trade away picks for a franchise receiver, which is something Bill Belichick never would have done. It's almost like watching my, my son leave the house and then order like $250 of stuff from seven 11 and just like eating Doritos and soda.

It's like, ah, dad, look at me. Ah, um, I, look at me. Ah, I do thought it was funny that that was the guy that traded for Devante Adams. When

I realized that like Adams was now a McDaniels guy and my first thought was like, Josh Daniels has never had a receiver this good ever. And then I remember that Randy Moss existed. Right. But like, it's been so long since we've seen McDaniels with a star receiver.

And I'm really interested to see what that looks like. It's very easy to figure out how Hunter Renfro makes sense for Josh McDaniels. We've seen him work with players like that before. Very easy to figure out how Darren Waller works for Josh McDaniels. We've seen him work with a player like that before in Aaron Hernandez. Devante Adams

is now what we would call a force multiplier. It's not just that Adams is so good. It's that he's going to make it easier for McDaniels to use Renfro in the welcome role. It's going to make it easier for him to use Waller in the Aaron Hernandez role. He is a rising tide that lifts all boats in this Raiders offense right now. McDaniels is everything he's built as an offensive designer. I like McDaniels as a passing game designer. He's got a lot of a resume,

big creative exchange of what he does. This would get really, really cool. Just flat out sick in terms of what this passing game looks like. And Derek Carr is the sort of mind, right? The sort of veteran who can handle all of that ass. Like again, pass protection is a concern. There's going to be an onboarding process, but I would,

I would not be surprised if by the middle of the season, this is just a point mid viewing passing game in Las Vegas. Well, Derek Carr, you know, he can fucking chuck it. He can throw it. He really can.

He's got, he throws a nice deep ball. He was pushing the ball deep downfield. Even after they lost Henry Ruggs, this guy is not the dude who came into the league. He's gotten steadily better even into his 30s. It's really, really exciting to think about.

I was thinking about the AFC West. I'm not going to do the thing where it's like, this is the greatest fantasy football division ever, because I don't know. I haven't gone through the last 40 years. But I will say this is the best fantasy football division we've had in a couple years where you got, just think about it. Mahomes, Kelsey and Hill. You have Herbert, Allen, Eckler, Mike Williams. You got Russell Wilson, Javante, Jerry Judy and Cortland Sutton. And then you have Carr, Adams, Renfro, Waller and Jacobs. And they're all in one division and they're all going to be playing the late games for the most part. And they're all going to be playing each other.

And you know, like one of the big winners of this trade is CBS, CBS. They're going to have awesome games. These teams are going to play each other, you know, six times and every game will be fun. And I don't know who the best offense is going to be out of those four teams. I went through the division and tried to figure out if you were

to just make an all-pro team from the division, what would it look like? And on offense, you have Mahomes, Eckler, Devonta Adams, Tyreek Hill, Darren Waller, and Travis Kelsey. It's unbelievable. The line is really good. Rashawn Slater, Joe Cooney, right? Colin Miller, Creed Humphrey. On defense,

is it possible to pick the pass rushers? You have Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack, who's in the charges now, Chandler Jones, because impossible to pick the pass rushers. You have Joey Bosa, Khalil Max, who's with the Chargers now, Chandler Jones, because he's with the Raiders now. You have Max Crosby as well. You have Chris Jones on the interior, right? You have Jason Jackson and Patrick Sassan, Derwin James, Justin Simmons, all the back end. But you could argue that

an all-pro team from the AFC West alone could hang with and maybe be an all-pro team from the other seven divisions combined. Both the offenses and the defenses in this division are shit. And who comes out of it? Honestly, big winner

in this trade? Buffalo. Because Buffalo is just going to sit in the AFC East and, you know, okay, maybe the Patriots will be good. I'll get that in from the top. But Buffalo is going to sit in the AFC East. They're going to be able to make the playoffs. They're not going to play this murderer's run. They're going to get to January a lot fresher after these four teams absolutely beat up on each other

for the whole season. Well, and Buffalo's also a big winner because it just appears like the Pats might be throwing away the season. They're just losing starters and not getting back really anybody at all. I'm trying to figure out who plays the AFC West this year. The AFC South plays them,

which means we're going to watch Jacksonville play all of these teams and Houston play all of these teams. And I don't know which NFC division it is. It isn't the East. None of the Eagles don't have them. Jesus. So it could be one of the middle ones. So we have for

on Fandle right now, KC is plus 135 to win the AFC West. Chargers plus 260. Denver plus 310. And Vegas is 5-1. I don't know, man. I feel like those teams should be more closely bunched together. I don't really even think there's

a favorite right now. Because each team has a hole that I would like with the chargers. I don't know if I trust their coach at all. I don't know if I trust Bosa to stay in the field, Denver, who knows with Wilson new team, who knows how that goes Vegas. You know, they,

they lost a lot of a draft capital with some of the guys that went South over the last couple years. Casey, this is going to be year five of a run. Usually these runs are three to four years. I don't know. Who do you have as the favorite right now? Right. It's really tough. I think the Raiders

should be fourth just because like you brought up, they've got a lot of work to do in rebuilding that roster. Secondary is really, really bad. Line is really, really bad. I love what they did. I think they're going to win some shootouts. Remember the Raiders of 2020 who played the Chiefs in two shootouts? I know

they beat them in one. They might have beaten them in two. I think they'll have that. I'm not sure they'll have more than that. Maybe they're a squirrely wildcard team. After that, I think that your Broncos are a kick below. They're a 1B behind the Chargers and the Chiefs. After that, I think that your Broncos are a kick below. They're a 1B behind the Chargers and the Chiefs. And right now, I have Chargers division

winning tickets. The Chargers have had an incredible pre-agency period. They have a guy in Justin Herbert who I think is above Russell Wilson in terms of quarterback tiers. I think he's a step above. I think he's in that elite tier. So I got them at like plus I want to say like 350. I think it was right after the Wilson trade. They kind of had a dip and I got them at like plus, I want to say like 350. I think it was like right after the Wilson trade,

they kind of had a dip and I bought them there. But after the Max trade, getting J.C. Jackson in the building, Sebastian Joseph Day, who Brandon Staley knows will make the system work.

I like the Chargers at value to win that division. I think the Chiefs and the Chargers are kind of your 1A. Broncos right there is a 1B. And the Raiders

are a clear fourth, but doggone it, they're a good fourth. Well, if you go fun rankings, all four of those teams are in the fun top 10. So is Buffalo, Dallas, the Rams, and the Bucs.

That might be like your seven, and maybe the Bengals, we'll see what they add. The Bengals are more impressive than fun. I wouldn't call them a barrel of laughs at times But I think the Niners

Might be up there in the fun rankings Because rookie quarterbacks can be fun It can be exciting when they're good Ravens, if Lamar's healthy But that's kind of a question mark All four are definitely top eight In terms of funness I can't wait to watch every single offense. It's going to

be extremely cool to see who gets the early lead in this division. And we have to just mention Arizona with an asterisk, because who knows? There could be a year where they end up actually being fun for more than three weeks in a row. Yeah, no, Arizona will be fun long enough to make us talk about them once

and then they'll immediately stop being fun. Right. They'll be fun enough to lead one podcast on either Ringer NFL or my podcast, and then we make us talk about them once and then they'll immediately stop being fun. They'll be fun enough to lead one podcast on either Ringer NFL or my podcast and then we'll never talk about them again. Alright, what a trade. Ben Solak, you hop on that plane. Good job. I can't believe this trade happened.

The NFL always gives us something to talk about. I'll hear you on the Ringer NFL show as well. I'm sure talking about this too, but thanks for coming on. Of course, I spent three whole on the Ringer NFL show as well. I'm sure talking about this too, but thanks for coming on. Yeah, of course. I spent three whole days preparing for a Deshaun Watson trade. So of course we get blindsided by something else right in the middle, but thanks for having me, man.

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Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further All right, Rob Mahoney is here from The Ringer.

He wrote about Giannis and Ted Cupo today. Rob, I am feeling like Giannis, I don't know if he's there yet, but I think we're edging there, is becoming the most disrespected superstar of his generation. You laid out some of the case today for why he should absolutely be thrown

into the MVP race in every conversation, then it's not just Jokic versus Embiid, which I agree with. But just in general, I've never seen people go out of their way to look for more reasons not to declare somebody either the best player in the league or 1B to Durant, if we're going to do that. He answers every question we have in the finals last year. He plays hurt. He comes through on the biggest stages. He has iconic plays. He handles his business

the right way. He crushes on both ends. He's the best defensive player in the league. He's averaging 30, 11, and 6. He's carried a team that's had a lot of moving pieces during the year. He never really misses games or seems to get hurt. He's carried a team that's had a lot of moving pieces during the year. He never really misses games or seems to get hurt. He's a true freak. He's in the prime of his career. What am

I missing? Nothing as far as I can see, but most disrespected is a big word this week when Russell Westbrook is getting laughed out of buildings, basically. So the threshold has changed a little bit. But he's earned the disrespect in a lot of ways. And also, when you talk a lot of shit and you carry yourself a certain way, and then you're on your way down, everybody lines up to get their punches in, right? With Giannis, it's like people are begrudgingly respectful for him. And I don't really understand it.

Maybe I'm arguing with the straw man. I don't know. No, you're not. I mean, just early this season, I think it was Tracy McGrady who was saying, oh, if Giannis played in our era, he would just be another guy. He wouldn't be as effective.

It's weird that you'll hear legends from previous generations say, oh, the Steph Currys couldn't cut it. But also Giannis, the guy who lives at the rim, plays completely inside, totally physical, all energy. I don't know how you can have it both ways. I don't know what they think the sweet spot of their game was that neither of those guys could have thrived. But Giannis is one of those players who,

I think in any era of NBA basketball, could have been amazing, but is particularly empowered by this one, by putting the ball in his hands, by enabling him in that way. And once you do that, I mean, there's just no turning back. That's how you get to these MVP mean, there's just no turning back. That's how

you get to these MVP levels season after season after season to the point where I guess it's old hat at this point. I guess we've already hit the voter fatigue stage at I think he's 27 years old, which is wild. But he's incredible, an incredible two-way player. Well, what made you want to write this week's piece? What were you seeing that wasn't out there that you're like, I got to do this? Well, I think there's a combination of things. First, it was just the narrowing of the MVP race to Jokic and Embiid, when to me, it was a three-man pool. It was, how are we parsing these three guys? And why is Giannis being boxed out of this conversation? But we're also at the point in terms of awards voting and consideration where it's it's kind of

why not season you know like why shouldn't i vote carl anthony towns all nba center third team over rudy gobert like why wouldn't i do that and so it's like if you're thinking about who the why not mvp pick is i mean i think you can make an argument for luca with how strong he's come on over the back half of the season but for me it's y's Giannis. And you look at every advanced stat, and Giannis is right there in the thick of it, usually with Jokic, usually above Embiid. And I mean, it's not a terribly complicated calculus that I arrived at, which is,

and we talked about this in the piece, if Giannis is right there in the running for the scoring title, and he might be the defensive player of the year, how is that guy not the MVP? And his stats are slightly better than Embiid's. If you're just going offense-offense, it's weird. Look, I've been talking about this for, I feel like my whole life that I've had a platform

of how the MVP becomes narratives. And people got seduced by the Embiid narrative pretty early on. It doesn't mean that he's not a worthy candidate. Yeah. But he hasn't won before. He took a step up. He's had some nationally televised games

where he kicked ass. And I think people, Giannis has reached this weird point where people kind of expect it and it's hard for them to be impressed by him. But I'm constantly impressed by him. As I've discussed many times, I feel like the MVP is always evolving week to week.

And that's why it's so dangerous to lock into anything before like the last 10 games. Totally. I always felt like it was a three man race last week. I was definitely leaning toward Yoka. It's just because I'm constantly amazed by how kind of unreliable his team is, you know? And I felt like if the records were all going to be around the same with Milwaukee and Denver and Philly then we have to think like all right now we're going degree of difficulty all all three guys have credentials and then but the thing that's changing with Milwaukee is they're finally starting to play really well they might end up getting a two seed they might end up having

you know the third or fourth best record in the league who knows and Giannis was the guy that kept it together and the Middleton Drew thing that that started at that big three piece that they, you know, Middleton was the guy who just wasn't as good this year as he was last year. Post all-star, I think he's like 26 a game and is looking like Middleton again. So now that's back. Now Lopez comes back and, you know, I look at it this way. Milwaukee's not going to be scared of playing Brooklyn in round one. I think Philly is.

I think Philly's going to do a lot of chicanery to get out of that potential two spot and move down. Milwaukee will welcome it. And they already know they beat Brooklyn. Now they beat a little slightly compromised Brooklyn, but I think they match up really well with Brooklyn. Isn't that the worst case scenario with Brooklyn. That's kind of, isn't that the worst case scenario for Brooklyn?

If my, if Milwaukee sitting there and a two seven, I mean, I think they would have to feel confident about what Durant can get. The question is, are all the other guys going to be in positions to score to succeed? Because we've, we've seen that play out, right?

We've seen that what this matchup looks like. And now PJ Tucker isn't even there to make Durant work for it, which means you're straining drew holiday more and Chris Middleton more. Most likely, those guys are going to have to have heavy two-way shifts all throughout that series, which is just really draining if you're not going to put that on Giannis, which I don't think you should for a variety of reasons. is tough, but what Milwaukee has is the confidence they can win. And what Philly has is all this emotional charge and baggage because of the dynamics between them and the Nets. That would be, it would be such a weird toss-up kind of series because we all know the Nets are better

than they're standing in their record. We've seen Kevin Durant go toe-to-toe with pretty much anyone. Kyrie Irving has been unbelievable, especially over these last couple weeks, when he can play. And no one wants a part of that. Least of all the Sixers, even though I'm sure they want to teach Ben Simmons something

and prove something to themselves and all that. But Milwaukee is just in a different place. In terms of confidence as an organization, in terms of the lineups they put on the floor, you win a championship, you're in a different place. To take on Brooklyn, I need speed and athleticism. I need to be able to take advantage of the fact

that they still don't have the right kind of size, depending on how you feel about Drummond, who I just do not trust in a playoff series. But ultimately, the kind of team they have probably goes a little smaller. I don't think we're going to see Simmons this year. And I think that might be okay for Brooklyn. I don't know if they necessarily need him because just getting hard and an

unhappy hard off the team and flipping them for Curry and Drummond might've been just better off for them this year. Anyway. Sure. Um, the Kyrie piece who, you know, I,

I've been thinking a lot about if, what is this, what it would look like if players only played once a week with the, like, cause that Kyrie's in my opinion, this is the best he's ever looked. I always thought he was exceptionally talented. It was the off the court stuff that really, you know, was the issue with him more than anything. And just him being unreliable in a variety of ways. But talent-wise, I think everybody agrees.

He's as talented as any guy in the league. And the stuff he did the last couple games makes you think, like, is this what would happen if we had, like, if it was like a Premier League season where it was just 35 NBA games. Everybody was at the peak of their athletic powers. Anyway, Milwaukee with Holiday, I think, is in the best position to at least not contain him.

But they have multiple guys that can throw at him and then Giannis protecting the rim. I would think that's the worst matchup for him. Not that there is a worst matchup. And then the Giannis-Durant part, they cancel each other out. Now we're talking role players. And I just like how they shape up in that series.

What am I missing? I think the interesting dynamic there for Brooklyn is they are so small on the perimeter. They have so many guards they're trying to fit into the rotation. That's where guys like Drew and Chris Middleton eat. Chris Middleton will post Patty Mills into the

basket. Drew Holiday will body those guys all the way into layups. If they're getting easy baskets out of those kinds of matchups, and again, it's not just Mills. It's Goran Drakic is in that mix now. You got Seth Curry, who's undersized, obviously. Even Bruce Brown, who's probably the best defender of the bunch. You're giving up a ton of height. And so if you're getting that much height across that many different matchups, and you have Giannis, who's just the biggest, most physical player on the floor,

I think there's a recipe there for Milwaukee to just eat at the rim, to eat on some pretty sustainable, easy baskets all series long. The Utah game is a good example on Monday night. They beat Utah. All three guys played really well.

And you think, you know, one of the things when they're really working as a team is three guys who can create a shot, especially in the last five minutes, which is something I talked about the other day with Jackie. It's my fear with the Celtics team. What happens when things really slow down and they just like, Tatum, we're just trapping every time we're double teaming you. Like somebody else has to beat us. Milwaukee has that covered. So does Brooklyn, honestly.

There are so many guys, and this is why the East is going to be an amazing playoffs, I think. There's just so many guys who can create a shot in the East. Even Chicago. And we should audible to Chicago. In Chicago, the Celtics were nine and a half games back from Chicago on January 7th and have now passed them in the standings. And Chicago is going to be probably a five seed or a six seed.

Yeah. But they're also going to have all their guys back by the time the playoffs start, I would guess. Maybe even Patrick Williams. Hopefully. Yeah. And that's... I'm positive a team I don't want to play.

But that's a team that has two guys at the end of the game who can create shots. And three, if you include Vucevic. Where do you see Chicago? What have you seen from them? The trouble with them is obviously they've had really strong performances in crunch time, as you're saying. DeMar DeRozan, just great at manufacturing

shots in those situations this season. But more broadly, when they've played against good teams, it just hasn't quite been there, and some of that is the injury stuff. It's going, you know, not just one injury, but two and three spots down on the depth chart where guys are just being asked to do a little bit too much.

And so I don't know how much of it is that and how much of it is something endemic to who they are as a team and how they defend. And, you know, Zach Levine being pretty much, he's going to be banged up for the rest of the season. He's kind of waiting to deal with his stuff in the offseason injury-wise. Not awesome. Not great. But

against the top 10 point differential teams this season, they are 6-14. They're okay on offense, 9th, which is about where they are usually. 26th on defense in those games. That really worries me. And I know, again, a lot of that is without Alex Caruso, without

Lonzo Ball. Hopefully, Lonzo in particular is back at some point. Caruso still seems like he's getting back into the swing of things, still feeling some sensitivity and some pain from his injury. You have to hope those guys are there because there's so much on their shoulders to fly around defensively,

to cover for everything some of these other guys can't do. I worry about that in a playoff matchup for them, especially as so many of these other teams in the East and the Celtics, case in point, are just coming on really strong at the right time in the season. They're playing with a lot of confidence. That's not a situation you want to run into. Yeah, I wonder with Chicago, is there, and I say this delicately, could they be this year's version of last year's Knicks?

Where, you know, that Randall last year, DeRozan this year, right? The guy who definitely takes a step up and is kind of lingering on the fringes of the MVP conversation. Great home crowd. Unexpectedly fun team to watch. But when we get to the playoffs, does some of this start,

some of this stuff unravel? I think the home crowd thing is going to be a big factor for them in the playoffs, though. That is not a place like, especially if they're a lower seed and you're talking, you're down 2-1 in a game four there,

that crowd's going to be lit. You're down 3-2 in a game six and now you have to go to Chicago. Like that, it's going to be a really hard place to play. I just don't think they've had the reps together. And that's another thing. I don't think we factor in enough with the playoffs.

And I think it's a huge advantage for Boston that the guys have played together as many minutes and games as they have. Just like Tatum and Brown have been five years together at this point. Rob Williams doesn't seem like it, but he's been on the team now for four years. Going down the line, everybody but White

has just been there. And White's a guy who can step in and play with anybody. But then you look at Chicago. They're five best guys. How many games have they played together? Like 18? 20? Exceptionally few. And to your point about the playoffs, I mean, DeMar DeRozan

has been brilliant this season. Historically, that dream ends in the playoffs. And, you know, his game falls into a different gear in terms of when people start game planning for him, when defense is keying on him. That said, the last time we saw him in real playoff runs, he wasn't the

playmaker he is now. He wasn't as in command of getting to his spots as he is now. There was just a different quality to his game. So I hope that has changed. I hope there's just a different way he's able to lock into some of those matchups and exploit things. But we haven't seen it yet. And I'm

with you on the Boston part of this where they kind of hit on the sweet spot at the trade deadline of obviously they were already playing very well. But they made a move that improved them without dramatically overhauling their team, where they have to think about the things that Philly does. Like, how do we change so much so quickly? Or Chicago, as you're saying, how do we get all our guys back in time to feel like we're in rhythm when they've only played so many games together so far. Boston has the continuity and this extra piece that's kind of pushed them into a different space,

which that's where you want to be if you're going to make a deal like that. Yeah, my fear, if it's Celtics-Bulls 3-6, which is very possible, and now Chicago has all their guys back, now we're in the last four minutes of a game, and they're just trapping Tatum

on the Celtics side of the ball. And then the other side is DeRozan doing the stuff he's done all year. I'm nervous. Because I do feel like the one issue with the Celtics all year is they look awesome in these games. Like last night with the Warriors.

It's like, they looked awesome in that game. Well, guess what? That game wasn't ever really close. If you've watched them all year, the last four minutes when it's tight, when it slows down, you got it. And Tatum has gotten incredible as a decision maker. I certainly was hoping this would always come from him,

and it has. But when the teams start trapping, all of a sudden Marcus has the ball with a minute left. Whereas like Chicago, it's like DeRozan and Levine, this is what we're doing. And Vucevic has always killed the Celtics so I'm hoping it's

Philly, Chicago 4-5 and that they don't see the Bulls because I'm scared of as little of reps that they've had

I'm still a little scared of seeing them I don't like these teams that where they have the guy who you just know can get two points with two minutes left

that's Phoenix is like that too, right? I just don't want to play that team in a playoff series. I think they're going to get good shots every time. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back and talk about something I can't believe I'm going to say. The Minnesota Timberwolves. All right, the T-Wolves.

This feels real. What's going on? It kind of feels like an arrival, doesn't it? I mean, they're clowning the Lakers in this big public way. But beyond that, I think the vibes with that team seem like they're in a really good place.

The momentum, the confidence of these young guys coming into their own is something we haven't really seen before. We've had a lot of false starts with the Wolves. We had the Jimmy Butler blip. They were a little better that year than I think people remember now. I remember they had a nice 50-game run there that was pretty legit, but then it fell apart. Yeah, they were a good team. They just fell apart for interpersonal reasons. And so that's why this feels a little more sustainable. It feels like they're growing something for the first time in a long time. And some of that is players you would expect.

It's the Towns and the Edwards. Some of it is players you might not. I think Russell has been quietly really important for them this year. He's had some nice chemistry with some of their role players, done a really nice job. And so it's just like guys who have been put in spots they haven't necessarily been in before. Jared Vanderbilt is just like a defensive anchor now. That's what he does. And he's dragging a team with Carl Anthony Towns, a center we were told and thought may not ever be a high-level defensive center, but has held his own, has done his job.

And that's just kind of what you see up and down the rosters. This is a team that does its job now. And that kind of competence, that kind of building block, that's where you want to be as a young team. That's where you want to start making strides and thinking about the future is, okay, we have this set. We can beat all the teams we think we're better than.

We can beat those teams. Now it's how do we get into this next class with the Mavs and the Nuggets and the Jazz and that group. You think about a playoff series, right? You only have to win four of seven. I'm not breaking news there. They're kind of a nice playoff series, right? You only have to win four of seven. I'm not breaking news there. They're kind of a nice playoff series team where Russell's going to suck in two of the games, right?

He'll go two for, like last night he was two for 11, but he'll have like the two for 15. But he'll also have the game when he has like 37 points and hits five threes. And you can't believe you just lost it home to the Timberwolves. They have the random Beasley game looming. I mean, Beasley's had

one of the weirder seasons of, I think, any expensive role player where if you catch him on the right night, he's a little like TJ Warren where you're like, is that one of the five best players in the league? What's going on here? He said 37 points in 25 minutes. But then, ultimately, the pedigree

of the three guys, right? Towns was the first pick in the draft. Edwards was the first pick in the draft. Russell was, ultimately, the pedigree of the three guys, right? Towns was the first pick in the draft. Edwards was the first pick in the draft. Russell was second. Like, at some point, you know, this is rocket science. And it's like, these were three really highly valued talents.

Two of them are playing really well. And as you said, Russell's coming on. I guess, well, let's talk Towns first. I actually believe this is the best he's ever played. Yeah. There's a little bit of a fuck you to him now that I like.

And I don't know if it's just because he's matured and gotten older. I think his personal life's... He had a lot of shit go on with him behind the scenes the last couple years. It seems a little more stable. But he's like 25 and 10 every night now and does seem like he's better defensively.

To me, it's like, he's clearly an all NBA guy for me. As I start thinking about my vote, he might even creep out of the second team. The way this is going. I, I have him over go bear. Like that's to me is like, you're done open and shut done closed. I'm just not a go bear guy. I'm just not, I can't get there, but whether towns can get to the second team, I think is the question. You got a little flexibility at the forward center, but has anything changed or has he just gotten better at everything?

What do you see? I think it's the difference between, if we flash back to the Jimmy Butler version of the Wolves, for example, there was that hesitance to call for the ball in the post, to get to his spots, to, again, exert himself and have that kind of fuck you quality in some ways.

And maybe he was delegating that. Maybe that was Jimmy Butler's job. I don't know. But there is a difference in that capacity and just the go-to, give me the ball. I'm going to work over this mismatch. Teams are always trying to guard him with smaller guys and then bring extra help.

And I think he increasingly takes that challenge. He increasingly looks to go at those matchups and prove that that's not going to work against me. That's kind of one of the trials that all young stars have to go through. Whatever the first and second rule of how to guard you is, how are you going to break it down? He's been dismantling

a lot of those matchups, a lot of those strategies. Even when he doesn't dismantle it, he's at least trying to dismantle it. And I think that's, to me, that's the thing I've noticed, is he at least sees now, you know, like somebody like Aiton. I liked that game the other night against the Warriors when he was like, you know, like, I have a mismatch.

Let me, go to me. Go to me to me I have the advantage I think it was the Warriors who was I watching that they were on TV was it I don't think it was the Warriors no it was last week I'm blanking on who they were playing but he had oh the Lakers um where it's just like give me the ball like they're playing LeBron etc like I. I can do stuff. With Towns, you just see him mentally going, all right, I'm taking this a little personally that this guy's on me. So I don't know. I don't want to make too much of beating up on the Lakers

because everyone's doing it these days and anyone who's young and athletic can do it. But I did like their, they had a little swagger to them in some of those clips and the Patrick Beverly stuff. It's a little F-you to them. It's certainly a team that's not going to be afraid in a 2-7 matchup.

I don't think. You need to have that defiance as a young team because you're not there in terms of all of the technical aspects of reading the game yet. Anthony Edwards feels like a player to me who is due for a young Donovan Mitchell kind of reckoning where he goes into a playoff series, he sees a lot of pressure,

he's going to have some amazing plays, and then he's going to have a lot of sequences where he doesn't read the floor quite right yet. That's just what you go through. And so to compensate for that, you got to have the fuck you. You got to be willing to get into these guys' faces and have an energy they that you got to have the fuck you you got to be willing to get into these guys faces and have an energy they're not going to have

because you know they're just 30 somethings trying to get through the season and you just have a different gear if I were them I would rather play Golden State than Memphis as crazy as that sounds especially we didn't even talk about the Steph sprained foot might not be ready until the playoffs

there might be a world where you're playing Steph, but he's not 100% yet. This Warriors team can't seem to all be healthy at the same time. Minnesota versus Memphis. Memphis just kind of does what Minnesota does better. Same kind of young fuck you thing, but they just have better players.

So I think that would be, I wouldn't be psyched if I was Minnesota for that one. Weirdly, Golden State, which would be hilarious because this Russell trade that seemed like the worst trade in the world even two months ago, now Russell's tailed off big time.

I still love Kaminga. I mean, they got... He's been awesome. Kaminga was the prize out of that. If you're Minnesota, that trade's still a disaster. But at least they have a little history on both sides, and that would be a fun one. Well, the danger in that matchup is, you know, Andrew Wiggins isn't playing right now,

but I wouldn't want to play him if I was one of his former teams that traded him away because those are the games he really gets up for. That he is like, oh, this is the guy that was the number one pick, Andrew Wiggins, versus this is the guy kind of floating around the perimeter and doing his job and being a role player. To the extent that Andrew Wiggins scares you

at all, I don't know. Revenge Andrew Wiggins is the only one that's scary. You know, my dad, who hasn't really watched the Warriors this year because they're always on too late, and he watched the whole Celtic game, and I was talking to him this morning. He's like, where'd that pool come from? That guy's amazing.

Which seems to be everybody's reaction. Pool, I think, has been the breakout where did that guy come from guy this year. Well, you don't need Steph Curry when you have Jordan Poole, apparently. He's just going to go for 19 in the third quarter. No problem. Make it look easy. It's like the 12th best player in the league.

The pool thing, I feel like if that hadn't happened for them, this is a completely different Warriors season. When you think of they missed two months of clay. Draymond's out two and a half months. Now Steph's hurt. And the pool piece of it where

you've just seen him take over quarters. He's going to be. He's one of my favorite. I can't wait to see this guy in the playoffs, guys. Edwards, I think, could be pretty clumsy. As you said, we've seen this version before where it's like, oh, this guy, bigger stage, trying to do everything.

It could go, you could go any way with that. But Minnesota was under 500 at the, yeah, they're, they're like the Celtics. They were 25 and 25. They're actually 24 and 25. Now they're 41 and 30.

So there's 17 and five run. That's 17 and five is like a legit run. If you're, you know, that's something. And they're blowing out teams too. You think like they won by 20, they beat San Antonio by 10. They beat San Antonio by 10.

They beat Oklahoma City by 30. They beat Portland by 43. They beat Portland again by 14. They beat Oklahoma City by 37. These are bad teams. But that's a good sign that they're beating the shit out of bad teams. Absolutely. And that's where the swag comes from.

And again, for an organization that just so badly needs that kind of progress. We were talking about this on group chat, but now they're one win away from their second winning season since 2005. That is as much a drought as you're going to get in the NBA. They really need this in such a big way. And it's cool to see the team and the city energized and tapped into. Again, for a lot of fans NBA lifetimes they may not have ever seen before you say that's as much

of a drought as you're going to see in the NBA and the Sacramento fans are like Rob we're over here we're over here we haven't been to playoffs since 2006 Kings are right here yet again um the Fox thing since the Halliburton trade is officially interesting though

I felt like Fox could have been had by anybody the Knicks could have had him for Randall in five seconds and I think the Kings like Fox more than most they believed in him I was out on Fox but I think he's like 29 a game since that trade

and has something with Sabonis don't ask me why I know this, but I, you know, you're on the West coast. Like sometimes you're just starving for a quarter or half to watch. Absolutely. The Sabonis Fox thing. There's something there. Like I, you know, I, I still wouldn't trade to Halliburton. I still am always going to try to keep the guys who like being in Sacramento. Um, but then even when Sabonis isn't out there, Fox, just without Halbert, it kind of looks like he's like, this is my team now kind of look.

I don't know. I guess that's something, Sacramento. Well, I think the reason to be optimistic about the Fox and Sabonis pairing is like what made that trade weird when they traded for Sabonis, it wasn't really about them two. It was about the rest of the roster around them and whether it fit and made sense. And it's like,

if you have to tear the rest of the roster down to studs to make this pairing make sense, is that worth it? What does that do to your timeline? What does that mean for everyone who's currently working for your team? Because they do work. They have a good handoff chemistry.

They're starting to find the timing of each other's games in a way that I think is going to be really productive. And as you're saying, has already been very productive by the box score. Translating that stuff to winning games, again, it's really not about them. It's like, can you get the shooting around them? Can you get the complementary defense around them to make

all that stuff work? I think betting on that pairing, you can see how they got to the place with like, okay, Sabonis is a guy who could be a long-term fit next to De'Aaron Fox, considering how much we're bought in on the idea of what Fox can be. At the very least,

it seems like they were vindicated not panicking with Fox, because I think I would have panicked if I was the Kings GM. I would have been like, you know what? I think this guy's overpaid and I don't think he has it. But now you're looking at it going,

eh, maybe he just had the wrong guys around him and maybe there's more here than I realized. We mentioned Jordan Poole earlier. Let's wrap on this. Over the course of this season, which guys have won you over?

Which guys that you didn't realize you wanted stock in or that you were even considering on your stock portfolio? Who sucked you in? Well, let me start with an apology. I was a little sassy, I would say, when the Chris Epps Porzingis trade happened in particular. I just did not like... Oh my God. You're going here right away? Wow. I didn't like what the Mavs got back. Okay. I was like, you know, I see why you would want to move on from KP. I see why you don't want to reset your roster.

But is Spencer Dinwiddie and Davis Bertans really how we want to do this? And Spencer Dinwiddie has been unbelievable. I have no idea how to square the player we saw in Washington and the player we're seeing in Dallas now. But clearly he was there all along.

Clearly there was something wrong in the mix with the Wizards that was not allowing him to be this kind of guy. Because we're coming off of him hitting back-to-back game winners. He's had just incredible fourth quarters across the board. Been exactly the kind of ball handler they need. Has the length to be a defender in these basically three guard, three ball handler lineups that they're rolling out.

I was flat wrong about the impact he was going to have on the Mavs. He's been tremendous and has totally won the over over these last couple weeks. It's interesting. Seth was really good. And we have Seth's wife coming later

on the podcast. But Seth was really good playing with Luke, I felt like. I really liked that pairing. Trey Burke had a couple moments. I don't know what happened to him, but there was that weird Trey Burke stretch. What was that, two years ago?

Maybe it was in the bubble. In the bubble, I think, yeah. Yeah. Something about Luka's game translates to these slash and kick guards who can make quick decisions, who can shoot threes, but can also slash and kick.

And you could see it watching that whole Celtic game where it's sloppy. can make quick decisions, who can shoot threes, but can also slash and kick. And you could see it watching that whole Celtic game where it's sloppy, it's disjointed, everyone's trying hard, but then the last five minutes when it really slows down and Luka just becomes the fucking brain surgeon of the game. And he's got these guys spaced in the right ways. And you're watching it going, fuck, what's the plan here? How do we stop this?

And it's like, you know, it's Jalen Brunson and Spencer Dinwiddie. It's not like we're talking about the best guys in the league, but I agree with you. It, it makes sense. It's logical. It was a really good trade. And I don't, I don't think it's a fluke. I'm with you. I do feel like maybe this is the kind of situation Dinwiddie needed to be in. And we've seen, I don't know, we've seen guys over the years, right? Like Derek Fisher, who is a weird player in general, but made sense in the Lakers. And then when he went to Oklahoma City, all of a sudden didn't make the same kind of sense. Sometimes just guys find the right fit. More important to them is I think they realized, and I think Kidd probably specifically realized,

I want to compete in the playoffs and I want to win playoff series. I can't count on Porzingis. And ultimately, I don't think he should be out there for us. And once they got to that conclusion, and he actually talked Cuban into trading Porzingis and Nico Harris and all those guys, that was the hardest part of that trade.

It was less even what they got back. Just like, hey, this is sunk costs. We have to move on. But then they get these guys back who are actually, you know, in Dinwiddie's case, really helping them. I'm with you. Good one. Who else do you have? I mean, this might be going full galaxy brain

and I'm really coming around the bend, but I have been historically, I would say, pretty low on Kyrie. And these last couple weeks, it's just undeniable how incredible he is as a shot maker. You know the talent is there. You know the skill is there. I've always felt like there was something a little empty. And I guess

to some extent, there still is. He is at least partly responsible for the destruction of a super team. But just on the nights where I turn on my TV and I get to watch Kyrie Irving play basketball, I'm finding those nights a lot more enjoyable than I used to. And some of it is just,

his game is cleaned up a lot in ways that we don't usually talk about in terms of his decision-making, when he plays with other stars, the way he cuts and moves and defends. I just really like the state of his game now in a way that goes well beyond like, let me put together this three-minute highlight state of his game now in a way that goes well beyond like, let me put together this,

you know, three minute highlight reel of his amazing handle. Like that stuff is all there. But I think there is a substance to his game that I appreciate now more than ever. I don't know if that says more about me or about him,

but it says something. He had, when he came to Boston, they had the big win streak to start. Hayward got hurt in five minutes and then the team kept winning and he was just brilliant the entire time. And it was like beyond stats.

He just had such control of the proceedings. It was probably the best he played in Boston. And it didn't end well, obviously. And as I joke many times, I would drive him to the airport. But watching him day to day, like he did do stuff that I'd just never seen a guard do before.

You know? And we had had, when I was a kid, we had Tiny Archibald who was a little bit like that Watching him day to day, he did do stuff that I'd just never seen a guard do before. When I was a kid, we had Tiny Archibald, who was a little bit like that, where he had a command of the game and an ability to just kind of get into the paint that just nobody else had. Kyrie's ability to score with either hand on either side of the backboard, to go into people, to bounce off big guys, still get a shot off. That was the coolest thing

about watching him. It feels like this version of him, he's kind of perfected some of this stuff. It's kind of shocking if he's healthy and out there that he's not going to get 30. Because it doesn't seem like

anyone has any chance to stop him. And I'm with you. I have found myself gravitating to these Nets games since the trade. I also like how he plays with Curry. Oh, yeah. And I think the two of them together, and you could feel it when the Celtics had that great game against them

and Durant was so hard to double him or trap him because you have Curry and Kyrie in these two separate parts. And then you think like, fuck, thank God they don't have Joe Harris. Oh my God. Jesus. With these two. But yeah, Kyrie's just incredible.

I think Harden has surpassed him as my least favorite NBA star. Oh, wow. Yeah. Race to the bottom. I think that's how this has played out because Kyrie just going toe-to-toe with him and really sticking it to him and guarding him

and kind of alpha-ing him. I enjoyed it. I liked it. That was a good game. Well, congrats to Kyrie Irving on moving out of the bottom spot. Yeah. Well, and also the thing with Kyrie and this is, I remember when Katie and I did the pods and Katie raved about him that time. And he thought he was more skilled than Allen Iverson and everybody lost their shit. Cause he was like, don't say anything ever bad about Iverson. I agreed with him. I think he's the best. He's the most talented

small guard I've ever seen. I don't think, I don't know if that's going to translate to titles again. I don't know if I'd want him on my team. I don't know if I'd want to play with him. But just fundamentally, if you and I sat down for three hours and we made a checklist of all the things that would make a six foot one and under guy

be special, he probably has the most qualities. Chris Paul is the most successful, I would say, six feet and under player we've had, but Kyrie has to be the most talented. I think everybody feels that way. I don't even think that's a controversial opinion. Yeah. I think the combination of skills again is undeniable and it really has been for a long time. The question is how healthy is he? What is he doing to your team? How do those skills manifest in terms of

the shots he takes and the decisions he makes? And that's where I almost think he's made kind of a DeRozan-like arc in terms of knowing who he is a little bit more, settling for the empty calorie stuff just a little bit less. I'm into it. I'm into it in a way I never would have

expected. Even looking at his stats and he hasn't played a ton of games. He played 20 games two years ago, 54 last season, 19 this season. You think like that's his Brooklyn career. He's played 74, 93 regular season games

in three years. That's insane. But he's been 27, 28 points a game that entire time. He's been a 50, 40, 90 guy that entire time. This year, he's a 49, 43, 90 guy playing 36 minutes a game,

but only playing 19 games. It's going to be one of those things like sometimes I would look, especially when I was doing my book and you go and you look at these seasons, like there'd be like these Rick Barry, ABA seasons, you're just like,

what happened that year? I just have no answers. I do wonder like 50 years from now, people will be on basketball reference like Kyrie Irving, the fuck was going on in those three Brooklyn years? But that's, he's the defining

what the fuck was going on with that guy, star of his generation. I do not want to see him in a playoff series. I think you pinpointed it already. You know, 50 years from now, we're going to look back at him as the pioneer of the once a week NBA scarcity model. You know, once the schedule is down to 2030 games,

he's going to be at the front of that Vanguard. I think LeBron would do this if he didn't have so many career stuff, things at stake. Cause the, the LeBron model is clearly the, this Kyrie model. If he could play like 40 games a year and just be incredible in the 40 games,

but he's now he's, he's got to chase the stats at this point, especially with how this brutal Lakers season has gone. I stand by, I made a prediction, I think three weeks ago, that Westbrook would not finish the season and that there will be some fake

Westbrook injury. And I am feeling better and better about that prediction than I think I ever have. Yeah, I think the Simmons thing that seems like the back thing might actually be real. I did not believe it. I thought it was an excuse until yesterday when they said he had an epidural.

Yeah. As you know, Rob, I'm one of the premier bad back experts on the planet. Epidural is, you get an epidural, that's like something's wrong. And I was thinking, because my theory on bad backs is it's stress. It's like stress and sitting habits.

Unless you've had some sort of traumatic injury, which obviously he hasn't had because he hasn't played. Stress and sitting habits. The stress of the last 10 months, I think because the one time my back got went out, it was more stress related than anything. And I wonder if the stress from the last 10 months

blew out his back. Weird theory. You don't think it's the sitting habits with him. You don't think he has bloggers back is what you're saying. A combo. Oh, okay.

Yeah, I think bad sitting habits with the stress and then something goes and then that's all of a sudden you're getting an epidural. But, yeah.

Ben Simmons, unstress yourself, better sitting habits. That would be my advice for you. Any other players that won you over before we go?

Let me do a rapid fire couple. Yeah. Tyler Hero, who I saw the flash in the pan in the bubble. I was like, is this guy going to be for real?

He is extremely for real. Very good player. DeJounte Murray. He's on a couple lists. Tyler Hero is also on the guys I can't believe might decide somebody's playoff destiny list. Yeah. Because there's going to be games

where it's like, if Tyler Hero has to score here, Miami's going to lose game six. Anyway, DeJounte Murray. Or they're going to bounce somebody because he's their best half-court option sometimes. But yeah, DeJounte Murray, his playmaking, I was always kind of into him as a defender,

but as a lead guard, I'm kind of buying it in a way I didn't before. I'm 90% there, but Jha destroying him that game, I need to take a pill and get that out of my head.

Because the Spurs were trying and Murray was trying and he was helpless. But I'm with you. He's got like, it's weird. He's got that same kind of Gilbert Arenas body

with the big, broad shoulders and just seems like the way he moves around and it just seems like he'd be an absolute bitch to play against. Oh, incredible driver. Strong, like I just would not want to play against the guy. All right, who's next? At the risk of lowering the live cow into the Raptor pen here, Rob Williams, it's hard to see his evolution and role

and not be bought into that prospect. I was probably the last Celtics fan to buy in. But you got there. You got there in the end. He's amazingly consistent. I got to say, I don't even think about him anymore. He's going to get 13 points, 10 rebounds. He's gonna block two shots. He'll have two alley-oops.

He runs the floor. He tries hard. He gives a shit. There was a great play. I think it was in the second quarter of that game against the Warriors where Jordan Poole tried to sneak a cut into the middle of the floor

to just see if he could get a layup through the teeth of the defense. And Rob Williams just ate it alive. And it's like all that kind of easy stuff teams were getting before moving him off the ball, enabling him as a rover. It's really changed a lot of his game. He's been really good. One thing

with him is he has a lot of wow plays. Yeah. Like day to day watching. He's like kind of the wow guy in the Celtics this year where he's like, geez, like these blocks that blindside blocks out of nowhere or alley ooop that's behind his head and he gets it anyway. Next one.

Where are you on Wendell Carter Jr.? I don't know how much magic basketball you've been treating yourself to these days. Shockingly, more than you'd expect. I'm here for the Wagner brothers being reunited. Sure.

No, I haven't seen that much, but I've always liked Wendell Carter and he's like 22 years old. Like, that's the thing. It's like, you get these top seven draft picks who were in a bad situation. And you go to the second team and, you know,

and they're still like not even in their mid twenties yet. He might be 23. I don't know, but it's, there's stuff there. I think he's actually, you can post them up. Yeah.

And he can create some stuff. And I don't know, he's a good rebound I think he's... Actually, you can post him up. Yeah. And he can create some stuff. And I don't know. He's a good rebounder. He's definitely an above-average player. Yeah. It's like if you want to be a big who isn't just going to be ducking in for dunks and alley-oops

and getting stuff out of the dunker spot, you got to have a little bit more of a diverse perimeter game. And so it's like if you're going to do the handoffs and all that stuff, you got to be able to trust your jumper. That's where the evolution for him has been. He seems like he's really confident in that little

turnaround and facing up and attacking in just like a different way that opens up the game for him. So I see potential there I wasn't quite sure about when he got to Orlando. The Vooch trade's tough because you have to add DeRozan to it. Yep. Because I don't think DeRozan goes there if it's not Vooch trade's tough because you have to add DeRozan to it. Yep.

Because I don't think DeRozan goes there if it's not Vooch and Levine. And also, it helps keep Levine there. I get all of it. But man, if you're just talking about Carter, and I think it was the seventh pick, which was the Wagner pick, or the eighth pick,

Wagner was the pick from the Vooch trade, right? I believe so. Plus Carter. And then there's another pick. That was a fucking awesome trade for Orlando. Great job. I like Wagner, but man, the Kuminga thing

would be officially bothering me if I was a Magic fan at this point. You would want to just go full commitment to the Jonathan Isaac model and just bring in Kuminga? I wouldn't. I think they made the right choice.

I think it worked out the right way for them. But I also think he's going to be awesome in the Warriors. Now, it's like a chicken-egg thing. Is he going to be awesome because he's on the Warriors? Because he has the right situation? Of course. But still, tough. Very tough. It's like like took jaylen sugs

could echo manga and bogner potentially and i like jaylen sugs was that your last guy i i mean i got some like bit you know if you really want to get into the amir coffee jackson hayes kind of category we can do that wait jackson hayes a little bit of a renaissance that the haze might not have been a little bit of a renaissance. The Hayes' might not have been a terrible pick. Yeah, they can play him in power forward now.

Yeah. It's not terrible. No. Yeah. Okay. Rob Mahoney, good to see you as always. We can hear you

on the Ringer NBA show. We can read you on theringer.com. Check out the honest piece he wrote. Thanks for coming out. Thanks, Bill. All right.

Callie Curry is here. We're taping this on Thursday morning. What a day to have her on. My favorite team, the Celtics, just injured her brother-in-law. Although, I did not think it was a dirty play. I don't know how you were taught, but I was taught to dive on the floor for loose balls. Yeah, I think, you know,

Marcus is known as a hustler. It happens. I don't think it was purposeful. There are some plays, you know, that happen that you're like, eh, I don't know about that. I'm sure no one wishes, no one wants to hurt Steph, right? No. No one wants to hurt anyone. No, especially Steph. He's a national treasure. We have, we have, it took the spotlight away from in the last seven years the Celtics have beaten gold state in gold state I think six times I did not know that yeah I don't know what it is but they go there and they and they really play well every time they just have their mojo there six years is good because that means they won in Oakland too I know so you're married to Seth Curry. We're going to talk bachelor, but just before we, before we get into that. So he gets traded. You just, you just had your second kid. Your,

your, your younger son is six months old. You're living in Philly. He's having a great season. Things are going really well. He's got chemistry with Embiid. Great chemistry. And then within 10 days, all of a sudden you're moving. What is it like from the wife family standpoint when you get traded in the middle of a season and you have two kids and you're just happy in your little place? Walk us through the experience. Well, it's not ideal. I can start off saying that. I think I have become super paranoid. So I thought we were getting traded. So I think I mentally prepared for it. I was not mentally prepared for Dallas. I thought there was no way we would be traded. So I actually cried when we got traded to Philly. Also, there was like a lot of layers to it, which, you know, made me cry.

Right. to it, which, you know, made me cry. Um, but, um, I did not cry this time. I think I was more prepared for it this time. It's just, it's not, I don't think it's not fun for anyone to be traded. Like even if you ask to be traded, it's that usually means something went wrong. It's just not a fun thing to be traded. Um, but my husband who doesn't believe in worrying, doesn't really like, nothing really gets him worked up. He's like, his favorite line is,

it's part of the game. Like it's part of your job. It's what happens. Lucky for him, I moved around all the time with my dad. So I am used to that. I lived in 14 houses before I went to college. And I think- Is that true?

Yeah. 14 houses? 14 houses. And I think seven or eight states. Is that true? Yeah. 14 houses? 14 houses. And I think seven or eight states. I always get confused. But yeah, because I was born when he was on the Hawks. So I went to every single team with him. Oh my God. Yeah. And then I remember when he told us when we were living in San Antonio that we were moving to Orlando for him to coach. And I remember being like, what? You're you're not even a coach. Like, what are we, we're moving and you don't even, you've never even talked about coaching. And now obviously it's been like 30 years since then. So I was wrong. He is, he loves coaching actually.

So, I mean, now we're moving. Seth moved the day after the trade. So we've been in Philly by ourselves now for like a little bit over a month and we will be moving in two weeks to New York. So they're throwing, so they're throwing them in a hotel. The trade happens. It's like, you got to get New York. Yeah. It's in a hotel. You have to pack up wherever you're living in Philly, but then you're also now, are you like on Redfin? What do you, what's like your strategy? No, you get a realtor. I go... Well, luckily, I'm in Philly, so it's only an hour train ride. And other times, like when we were in Dallas, I had 24 hours. I flew to Philly, had 24 hours, had to find a spot that day. Got super lucky that we found an amazing place here in Philly.

Found it, got it, and we moved a week later. This time, I got to go up and back to New York two or three times to find our place. By the way, marketing New York, not super friendly right now. So what are the factors? Do you want to be like close to the arena? Are you thinking neighborhood? Like, so how do you figure that piece out? Yeah, I think, I think, you know, it's normal to most people. Seth likes to be close to the practice facility. He gets there really early. He does every ounce of treatment that is possible for one's body. He signs up for. Yeah.

So he likes he likes being close and like for late night shooting and stuff. And then we're lucky in Brooklyn that the arena and the practice facility aren't far away. So we found a place that's close to both. We're in Brooklyn, which, yeah, I'm excited about. It's a good neighborhood. You want to be able to take your kids's close to both. We're in Brooklyn, which, yeah, I'm excited about. It's a good neighborhood. You want to be able to take your kids outside close to parks. I'm excited to move to Brooklyn. Listen, there's a lot worse places to live.

Well, nobody was more excited than your bachelor party. One of her co-hosts, Juliette Lippman, was like, she's pretty selfish. I don't know if you realize that. But the moment the rumor started, she's like, oh my God, Callie might be moving to New York. This is going to be great for us. I know.

I'm so excited to meet her. So this goes way better, I feel like than if it had been like, oh, he's going to Sacramento or he's going to Phoenix or someplace where it's 3,000 miles away and you have to figure it out on the fly during the season. Yeah, it's way harder when it's far,000 miles away and you have to figure it out on the flight or in the season.

Yeah. It's way harder when it's far away. Although you named two places I wouldn't mind. Seth loves Sacramento, weirdly. I don't know why. Because usually when you ask people like ranking NBA cities, Sacramento is not at the top of that list. Seth played there and he loves Sacramento.

It's also not far from like his brother. So that's like a plus. Right, right, right. Yeah. That's if I ran, if I ran Sacramento, I would just try to make a list of all the guys who love Sacramento. Like they traded, they traded Halliburton and he was like, I'm bummed out. I loved it here. And I was like, how do you trade a guy who actually loved it here when it's so hard for them to keep people? Yeah. I don't think, I don't think he thought he was going to leave or wanted to leave. Um, you know, it happened.

He's young. He's figuring it out in Indy. Yeah. Yeah. Seth loves Zach. I haven't spent enough time there to say that I like it. That was one of the cities Doc never ended up in. I mean, he was probably in like seven or eight cities, right?

We actually got really lucky with the cities. We were in Atlanta, L.A., New York, San Antonio. I actually love San Antonio. I actually love San Antonio. I think it was the age that I was there. Um, Orlando and Boston, not bad cities. So each time you're showing up and at some point you're like your elementary school and then you're like a teenager and then you're, and you're still like bouncing around. When he went to Boston, I was in high school and, uh, I basically myself and my older brother were like, we're not moving.

Right. You stayed in Orlando, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was a sophomore in high school. My brother was a junior in high school. I think we were just too old.

We both played sports and we're going to college for that sport. And, um, at the time, I don't know if volleyball has gotten better, but it wasn't great in Boston. So I was just like, I can't,

I can't move there. That's it. Yeah. And then he would fly. I remember he would like, doc would't move there. That's it. I remember Doc would fly back and go back and forth, all that stuff. Wasn't that far of a fight? No. And I spent a good time there. We were up there basically every summer because they were, well, not in the beginning, but at the end

when they were in the playoffs. Well, with the set thing, this trade feels like it was like, if you're going to get traded, this is the perfect trade because you had two weeks to prepare for it because there are all these rumors. Yeah. And plus Brooklyn was like, we're not doing this. Obsessed not in it. So at least they know, you know, that he was valued versus like being this salary cap throwing guy.

And now he's on a team that has, you know, even though they're going to be the eighth seed there. You know, I'm so as a Celtics fan, I'm certainly terrified of them. So they're going to be lurking. They have two of the best players in the league. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Definitely have two of the best players in the league. Kevin's actually my favorite basketball player to watch.

So good basketball for me since I get to go to the games now. Best case scenario, you don't want to get traded to a team that's tanking. So it is a good... I think even though they're the eighth seed, I think they're considered a contender. I know the odds for them are probably higher than they should be based on how they have performed so far. You're basically going from contender to contender.

So he's not mad about it. Why do you think it never worked out with him in the warriors because when he was on there i was like i i was i know you probably know this but i was always i was always a seth guy i was always like because i just love shooters i always feel like shooters are gonna figure it out at some point and i'm always gonna bet on like the guys who have that one elite skill it It's going to work out. Do you think he needed like his own? Yeah.

He was always going to be in Steph's shadow there and it just had to be somewhere else. Listen, my husband, I don't know if you've talked to him much, but he's not a huge talker. But he is Steph's like biggest supporter ever. I don't even think Steph knows it because he's probably never told him. Right. From being around him. He is, he, he loves Steph, but I think everyone kind of needs their own thing. You have to create your own lane. Like, you know, I wouldn't say that my brother playing for my dad was the easiest thing ever. Like you, you, you want to create your own thing. Um, I mean, he left right before they went on a crazy run, so I'm sure he would have loved to get

a few championships. Um, but I'm glad he would have loved to get a few championships. But I'm glad he went somewhere else and figured it out. I think he's a much better player today because of it. I agree. I actually, especially because Steph became so famous there in the mid-2010s, I think it would have been hard to kind of pave your own way. I think you just mentioned him playing for your dad. Oh, Seth and my brother.

No, Seth. I mean, were there moments where it's like, Jesus, why did he only play 20 minutes today, dad? No, we actually had like the opposite because he had to play so much because there was some like injuries and stuff, especially this past year that he probably played too many minutes, if anything.

I was really worried, really worried about it coming into it. Did you talk about it with your dad? Not really. I mean, we talked about it, but he acts like everything's going to be fine. It'll work out. It's all good. Whatever. Seth kind of gets along with everyone like I don't really know anyone that dislikes him um so it ended up working out fine there was never ever a moment where I would you know there

was a there was a brief probably like five minute moment after the trade where I was not happy but outside of that it was fine so you're not happy because it's just like, this is too weird. Yeah, I mean, it's just not fun getting traded. Yeah. But I mean, it's not even one person's fault. Like obviously there's multiple people making a decision. It's not like, you know, my dad led the charge or anything.

Plus there's a few guys that you can't be mad about getting traded for, you know? Right. Yeah, it's true. Okay, let's a few guys that you can't be mad about getting traded for. Right. Yeah, it's true. Okay. Let's pivot to The Bachelor. Okay. We were texting after, first of all, amazing comeback by the franchise this year.

Oh, my gosh. I think they really, they remembered their roots, which is like, let's get a dumb guy in here. And he'll do some dumb things and make a lot of mistakes and we're off. And they cast the perfect guy. He fell in love with three people somehow, which I didn't even know was possible. I don't know if he understands the concept of love. I don't think so. Sleeps with the first two who he told he loved, but then was really in love with the third person and it turns into a whole disaster. The first two leave the show. He ends up with the first two who he told he loved, but then was really in love with the third person. And it turns into a whole disaster. The first two leave the show.

He ends up with the third one, but they didn't get engaged. But what we really landed was the two that he slept with, but he didn't. Then they left are now going to be the co-bachelorettes. Yeah. And we were talking about ideas for this. So go with the joe millionaire explain that whole concept to us well first i want to say i really wonder if like you said they went back to their roots picked maybe not the smartest guy in the world whatever not definitely not the best

communicator did they know did they know it was gonna go like they had to have known like oh this is gold this guy is definitely going to do something that will get our ratings back up. Like it just worked out too perfectly for me to not think that they talked to him enough to know he's not going to make some good decisions. I think that they were scouting much like an NBA team would scout and say, we need shooting. I need a rebound or I need defense. They were just like, I need mistakes. Is this guy going to make some mistakes? And he did. I mean, like world class mistakes. So bad. It was great, though. Great television. Very happy

for the season. And I'm super excited about the next season. So two women bachelorettes. One, do you think they would have done it if it were men leads? Would they have two men leads? Yeah. No, what's weird is like we've seen the reverse of this where the bachelorette gets a little frisky with multiple contestants. And then it's like, no, no, this is fine. But for some reason, this felt like it was handled like it was like 2007. But they're trying to do this thing where these two,

Rachel and Gabby, were bonded. Were bonded by their relationship with this guy and he turned into a bad guy and they're going to be back. And it's a sisterhood thing. I would rather see them compete for guys. I think they are going to compete. I think they are going to compete for guys whether they want to or not.

It's impossible to have a group. This is what I think is going to happen. It's going to be 40 guys. This is what I think is going to happen. It's going to be 40 guys. Maybe they up at 10 more guys. Then they each get to pick their 15 to 20. Do the ladies pick or do the guys pick? Because sometimes they've had it where the guys pick one or the other. They have to.

I would just have them in the house. And I would have the ladies confer, like almost like they team up on who's going to get roses and they keep advancing, but you kind of don't know who likes who. That's how they did with Joe Millionaire, which by the way, underrated show. So you said that was good,

but you were the only one that watched it. I don't know very many people that watched it. I mean, I've gotten like maybe a handful of DMs of people being like, I watched it too, but like, I don't know who watched it. I loved it. It's very cheesy. But I think The Bachelor will do a better job at what Joe Millionaire was trying to do.

So if you have two women leads, a pool of guys, they all live together. The guys get to date both women. And then the women have to talk it out. Like, I think I have a better connection with him. And then it'll eventually get to the point where somebody will have a super strong with one only one. And then there'll probably be a few that are like teetering in between. Where you really want to land is you want to, you want to land in two places with this.

You want, if, if everybody's eligible, you want to land with like the one guy who's kind of playing both sides, who's making it seem like he's connecting with one and then he goes to the other. So you have that. But then you also have, you know, the two the two ladies. Ideal TV is. Kind of liking somebody. Yeah. Ideal TV is they both like the same guy.

They both like Bob. Yeah. And Bob's playing the playing both sides of the fence with them. both like Bob. Yeah. And Bob has to choose. And Bob's playing both sides of the fence with them. And then they're friends. And now they're arguing. And that's where

we want to get to. Yes. Ultimately, the Bachelor franchise is built around the premise that women are going to turn on each other for the right guy.

And it's like, it's the history of the show over and over again, especially when you have them all in the house together. And it's like, it's the history of the show over and over again, especially when you have them all in the house together. They're claiming that this friendship between these two is going to trump all this.

But I know from the Bachelor franchise, that's not how this works. No. Also, when you watch The Bachelor sometimes, I think when the women are like trying to become really good friends and they always paint a villain, right? This season there was a couple of villains, but the villain's always like,

I'm not here to make friends. And I'm like, that's not, that's not unfair. Like that's, no one's there to make friends. You guys are all dating the same people. I can't remember a time in my life where I liked a dude and I knew about another girl liking the same dude. And I was like, oh yeah, let me go be homies with her. Like, yeah, let's get coffee. Yeah. No, you end up, you know, usually like talking shit about each other. That's usually what happens. The most brilliant thing this show does is when there's three people left and they have the overnight fantasy suite. Oh, my God. And then the one person returns the next day and they put the other two in the room and they come in and it's like, hey, how's your date? The most cringe moment of TV.

It's perfect. They always extend it. It's always like 45 seconds of silence of them all sitting there nodding. They might loop in the silence. They might not even be in actual silence. Also, like, what are you supposed to say? They're all like, how did it go? Like, what are you?

There's nothing you can say in that moment that is comfortable for everyone it's always a smaller room they want they want them confined one couch sitting in cat yeah one couch where they're like right near each other and the other two are trying to read the face of the third one the third one doesn't want to say too much but she obviously just want yeah that's what suzy did suzy read the room and was like oh they both had sex with him yeah but and then really smart this is why the show's been on for 20 years putting suzy third yeah yeah he put her first the show he probably just was like that's it it's a wrap the other two are out or you put her first and she tells him if you have sex with the either of the other two that i'm done and he won't have sex with either of them hopefully I don't know about yeah you were watching the

screeners right because you're watching ahead of time yeah I think one of the keys with this show is if you watch it live with the commercials you really start to hate yourself because it's it's like it's so long it's barely worth your time anyway and there's a lot of moments where you're like I can't believe I'm gonna devote another Monday night to this but if you even if you started at like 8 30 when it's on live and at least you can zoom through the commercials mentally I'm I'm in a better headspace with it I only want to spend 90 minutes or less with the show yeah I have to if I don't have screeners like I'm recording, I can't I can't watch it live. It's too it's so long. Well, it seemed like this time around live, the audience kind of hated.

What was his name? Chadwick Clayton Chadwick Chadwick. They I it was probably the most tepid response I think anyone's gotten coming out I I feel like they were coming at him the whole finale like Gabby it and the way that they split it up usually they like show the episode and then they have people come out they were like Gabby first okay now Gabby it's your turn to go at Clayton now Rachel okay Rachel it's your turn to go at Clayton every single time Rachel or Gabby said anything, the audience was like, yeah! They weren't happy for him at all. And even when

Susie came out, I feel like the audience were like, fuck you. We don't want you to be happy. Right. I personally am happy. I want them to be together. I feel like so much shit happened this season. I want something to come out of it. I don't know if it's going to last either. But I'm glad

that he found someone and that Susie did it her way and didn't say yes. I will say I thought it was really weird that she went and met him in the countryside in a sparkly white dress to tell him no. Yeah, there was a lot of things that didn't add up.

I actually think that they're not together and sometimes i think they arrange where it's like come back and pretend like whatever but then two weeks later because they just i don't think they wanted the show to end with like just complete sadness and an abyss nothing yeah it would have been really sad clayton looked miserable um i saw on tiktok that suzy went on Nick Bial's podcast and said that she DMed Clayton. So she went after Clayton after it was all over. So the producers were just pushing her to do that. I guess. The thing is, though, with him, I mean, I don't think I think we've had more handsome bachelors just trying to be nice. I would say he's on the lower end of the handsome bachelors

they've had. I agree with you but I also say there's someone for everyone, right? There's people that think I'm ugly but Seth doesn't so good for me. But I'm saying he was one of the most handsome ones. I don't think he was particularly funny.

I don't remember him saying anything funny. I don't think he was particularly funny. I don't remember him saying anything funny. I'm not. I don't think he was a rocket scientist. He was really there to make mistakes. So from that, that's it. And he made mistakes. And that's where we landed.

His family seemed great. So I have to imagine he's a decent guy that just had no fucking clue how to navigate this. What was the reality show that completely got you? Where you're like, I'm just in on this entire genre. I feel like you're going to hate me for this, but Love Island. Why would I hate you for this? I don't judge with reality.

Do you watch Love Island? I've seen love island i could watch like 24 hours a day just like constant zoom of love i love love island i recently got into big brother and obviously it's been on for a long time i started watching it like two years ago. I think the love and challenge, like those type of shows get me. Survivor, Big Brother, The Challenge. I do like The Bachelor. Oh, that's right.

You love The Challenge. Yeah. Love The Challenge. You like some of the Bravo, right? All the Bravo. I watch a ton of reality television. Real Housewives, Summer House, Southern Charm. Love it. See, you probably don't remember this because it was 20 years ago, but

the first wave of great reality shows was when The Bachelor started, Temptation Island. Which is back. You're a millionaire for a year. Yeah. Temptation Island was the first time. The Bachelor was great, obviously, and got huge ratings. Real World. Well, yeah, going way back. Real World. But Temptation Island was the first time I felt like, oh, they're really starting to figure this out now.

This is the direction we need to go as a society. I think I felt that with Flavor of Love. Another great one. Yeah. Temptation Island and Joe Millionaire were the ones that opened the door for like, there's really no dating premise

that can't work. If you just put people together in a place, things are going to happen. And 20 years later, I felt like, especially when The Bachelor was having some of the problems,

you know, some of the big picture problems that was happening, it did feel like the franchise might Peter out. I thought it was. And the last Bachelorette season was just boring. And it just felt like, yeah, maybe this is it. But, you know, it went back to its roots. So the last Bachelorette season, I loved Michelle. She was great, but not fun to watch on TV. No, she was too classy. Like you need to pick people that are gonna,

I don't know another way to say this, but like ratchet it up, make bad decisions, do stupid things. Like that's what you want to see. Did you ever think of going on a reality show? 0% chance. 0% chance. What do you think?

So Basketball Wives. Wait, wait. Yeah. I would go on Amazing Race. And I'm- Well, you're a good athlete would be that would be potentially a smart move for you i also love like learning about different cultures and stuff so i watch amazing race still it just ended um i would go on amazing race and i have considered survivor i'm just like i don't i can't make a fire i don't i've never slept in a sleeping bag like i'm very much like put me in a nice hotel type of person.

I'm, I don't know how to fish. I don't like bugs. So I would go on Survivor to like push myself, but I wouldn't make it very far, which would annoy me. Well, that's probably why you'd be good on Survivor. They like when the people have flaws. I've wanted my wife to go on Survivor for 20 years and could never get it done.

She doesn't want to? She'd be great on the challenges and she gets super, super ornery when she doesn't eat. So the combo of those two things where they'd be trying to vote her off, but then she'd keep winning the challenges to stay on the show would just be, that's where you want to be on Survivor.

Would you ever do a reality show? I would not. I would not. There's not a show. I think way back when in my 20s, I would have done Real World if it was like early 20s. Especially Real World was way more important in the 90s. I mean, it was actually like a pretty iconic show for my generation. Yeah, there's famous people from the real world from back then.

You know what kind of killed the real world was the internet. Because once the internet started and people just started to get more perspectives, the real world became less interesting. But in like 1993, where it's like I only knew my friends and people I went to school with or wherever and then all these weird people were on my TV living together. It's like, what is this? I keep saying it's great, but I was four years old in 1993. But I do remember, I don't know how old I was when I started watching it,

but I love the real world. Well, it led to the challenge, which is it's important legacy. And the challenge is one of the most important reality shows ever. Why do you think the Basketball Wives show didn't make it? Because it feels like that brings a lot to the table that we all like in reality shows. But it just couldn't last. I mean, it did well for a while. Yeah, it's like three years.

It's probably hard to get people to go on it now. Like, what basketball player wants their wife to go on that show when they're fighting? Like, it's all drama, which obviously that's part of it. They want that because that's what makes the show watchable. We could watch a whole bunch of people doing nothing and getting along.

But I think that's why no one wants to go on the show. I would never go on the show. Do you think it's basketball players or just to that? I mean, everybody's a brand now. And they're way more conscious about how they're perceived. Plus, you have Twitter and you have screen grabs and all these different ways. For sure. Especially the bigger

guys. I can't imagine Savannah James wanting to go on that show. No, I can't see that one either. I mean, it was amazing. Shaq's wife was on it, but it was kind of... They were kind of getting divorced at that point. I think they were already divorced when she started it.

But she, I'm pretty sure she EP, like she's an EP on the show. She probably made a good deal of money. All right. So what is the NBA reality show then? Is it even possible? Let's say Paramount Plus brings us in a room, you and I

and we're like figure out a show for us if I could pitch a show and everyone has to say yes to it, I don't think this would ever happen but I would pick the people that are most interesting that we know the least about and follow them around I would love to follow some people around and know what their actual life's like

wouldn't you love to follow Kyrie around and just find out what his actual life is like? Well, I think, yeah, if we're going top five players who would have a great reality show, just from a I'm fascinated watching this standpoint, Kyrie has to be in like the top three. Yeah. I would say.

I'm fascinated by Jokic. I like how he's got his two brothers. Oh, would love. I think Jokic might be number one. Yeah, I would be in on that by Jokic. I like how he's got his two brothers. Jokic and his brothers? Yeah. I would be in on that just to know. His brothers go, it seems like they're in every city with him. It's just the three of them at all times

and I just want to know more. What do they do? Also, super tight-knit families are fun to watch. Right. But the problem is sometimes when you see that on a reality TV, I don't know if I trust how super tight they are. They're telling us they're super tight, but it's like, if you're super tight, you wouldn't be on the show. Right. Also, I don't know if you saw, but after, I think it was last year after the playoffs,

did you see that video of Jokic going around where he's just like in a carriage, a horse is like pulling him around on a carriage? Did you see this? Oh, I have to send you this video. There was this video that like went viral literally like a week after the playoffs. And he's back in, where is he from? Serbia? Oh man, I always get all the NBA countries confused. Somewhere, yeah.

I think it's Serbia. Yeah, okay. So he's back in Serbia on a dirt road, just like doing laps with the horse. And he's just following around. Like he's in the carriage behind the horse getting pulled, which obviously has to be a very strong horse. But like,

you just don't see an NBA player do something like that. Like he makes, I don't even know how much money. And he's just like back in his home country, following behind a horse in a little tiny little carriage. And he's seven feet tall. Like I can't imagine what his life is actually like outside of basketball. The NBA has never figured this out because I

remember when I was at ESPN that we did the association ironically with their dad. Um, it was the season after the Celtics won the title and it was going to be hard knocks for the NBA. And they had camera crews behind the scenes, but they never really, first of all, they didn't want to show the, anyone swearing. They never wanted to show anything that could, anybody would get mad about. So it was like kind of the sanitized version of hard knocks. And it just, it was, some of it was interesting, but it just didn't totally work. Whereas like you think, all right, a camera's following that team for a year with like KG and Ray Allen and Rondo and your dad and all these different. Yeah. And Paul.

Like, how did that not? How is that not amazing? But the NBA kind of doesn't want that to be amazing. Yeah, probably. But I think HBO does like a great job with hard knocks. It's never like. Because football, they let them do it. But really, it doesn't ever make anyone look horrible.

That's how I feel. We did Courtside four years ago, which was all about the NBA Finals. And I was on it. And we did all these interviews. But we were supposed to get all this kind of behind-the-scenes footage. And they just...

They didn't want to give us the stuff that actually would have made the show awesome. I also wonder, like, do people want to give us the stuff that actually would have made the show. I also wonder, like, do people want to see, like, that's the other thing with Kyrie Jokic. Like they're also so insanely good at basketball.

Like I would like to see what their work ethic looks like, but I don't know if that's interesting to other people. I was thinking, cause I, I liked that F1 show. I finally got into it. Yeah. And I was,

I don't know. They'll never do it for NBA, right? They're doing it for golf and tennis though. Right. But in NBA, Steph's not going to be like, cool, I'll sit down, but I'm not an EP

and I get nothing out of this. He's never doing it. How does that F1 show get the, they get all the best people. Well, what happened the first year, the two best Ferrari and Mercedes weren't on it, right? So then Daniel Ricciardo became the star of the season one and then season two, Lewis Hamilton's right there. Right, right. Because it's like, oh, I have to be on this,

but it helped them grow the sport. The NBA doesn't, I don't think the NBA needs the help, you know? No. Yeah. I guess that makes sense for F1. Like it only helps their brand to do the show. It's not going to help Steph's brand do that show. But you know what I was thinking? Now I'm giving away a good idea. I think G League would work. I'm actually really interested in G League because I was watching, they showed a highlight last night

of some dunk. Somebody had this crazy G League dunk. And there was like nobody in the stands. It was like 50 people. And I'm like, what goes on in the G League? It's a great idea. It hasn't caught on. Yeah. It depends on the stands. It was like 50 people. And I'm like, what goes on in the G League? It's a great idea. It hasn't caught on. Yeah.

It depends on the location because like Santa Cruz, those games are like crazy. Right. I think it depends on like where you are. I don't know if they still have the team in Erie,

but I know Erie, it's probably, you know, different than what it is in Santa Cruz. Also, it would be more interesting now because some of the best players go to the G League

instead of college. Like it would have been cool to see of the best players go to the G League instead of college. It would have been cool to see Jalen Green last year in the G League. Right. So I think G League F1 could potentially work. I think I would at least give that a test drive. I would sign up to watch that. You loved Love is Brown, right? Oh my god.

That's the show. To me, that was the show of the year. If you can fall in love with somebody through a wall, I need you on a reality show. I think what makes Love is Blind even better is that there still are couples from season one that are together and married. Right.

Yeah, they had like a real bond. Somehow it actually works. Yeah. Well, could you do that? I think they trust the show that the people aren't going to be like unattractive. Like they'll at least be attractive enough that they can talk themselves into it maybe. But yeah, if you're falling in love with somebody through a while,

no, I could not have done that would be my answer. I don't think I could do it. I don't think I could do it in a week either. That's the other thing. It's not like they're there for months talking to someone, getting to know someone. All right. You have to go be a mom. I do.

So what are we betting if it's Brooklyn Celts round two? First of all, I think that'll be a great series. It depends on who's healthy. But if I had to place a bet... It's got to be something Seth related. Seth's got to do a five-hour podcast with me. If, okay. Can Seth talk for five straight hours? Probably not. You're lucky to get 50 minutes. Yeah. All right. Okay. I'll get Seth for a half

hour. What's the bet though? I guess if the Celtics win. Yeah. Is that the type of bet we're doing? I mean, you know what? We'll figure this out. I don't want to jinx it. I do feel like we, the Celtics and Nets are going to see each other. Seth kind of kills us by the way. I don't look forward to seeing Seth in the,

in the playoffs. That would be a fun atmosphere in both places. I think, cause it's so close that there'll be a lot of fans at both places. So I think we're going to get to three. And because you think that the bull we're going to get to three. Because you think that the Bulls are going to keep dropping? And I think Philly

is... I think Philly is... Don't get in trouble here, but I think Philly is going to run from Brooklyn. Don't say anything. By the way... I think Philly is going to be super happy being in the 3-6-4-5 set. If it were me, I'm dropping to four. Four is the safest place to be, I think. Brooklyn

has too much... You saw it in that game. They have too much speed for Philly. And I think Philly is like, I'm out of this. We're out. We don't want to play this team. If I'm any team, I don't want to face Brooklyn first round. Why would I want to sign that? It sucks for whoever gets them because they had a great season.

But Miami and Milwaukee are going to be like, we're not afraid of anybody. Bring Brooklyn on. I mean, I don't think Miami has a choice. They're going to probably be the one seed. So the path would be Brooklyn wins the 7-8. Maybe. This is how we'll play the Celtics.

Celtics get the 3. 2-7 round one. Brooklyn beats the two seed. Celtics win the 3-6 and now round two, 2-3 Celtics. So you think Brooklyn will beat Bucs first round? That's your guess? No, I actually think we could see Milwaukee one, Miami two. Oh, okay.

I think if I'm Brooklyn, Milwaukee is the team I don't want to play. In any round. I don't know who I want to play. The East is... I think that the East is tough this year because there's too many really good teams. It's awesome. The East has sucked.

The East has sucked for 10 years. A while. The West has the Suns who seem to be head and shoulders above everyone in the entire league, although I think that changes in the playoffs. But for regular season, head and shoulders above everyone in the entire league. Although I think that changes in the playoffs, but for regular season, head and shoulders above everyone.

And then you have Memphis and golden state that are also really good. Um, and Denver, Denver kind of lurking. Yeah. Denver, but there are, there are good teams.

It just seems like there's more like animosity in the East. I just think the East first round playoffs, all four rounds are going to be great. That Philly Brooklyn game was, it's kind of mean spirited. I loved it. There wasilly-Brooklyn game was kind of mean-spirited. I loved it. You could see there was a lot of stuff going on on both sides. It was heated, but it wasn't that much fun

to watch because you knew in the first six minutes. Yeah. Alright, we did it. You came on the podcast. I didn't get you in trouble. There's going to be no news story coming out of this. No headlines. We can hear you

on the Ringer reality feed and on Bachelor Party as well, though. The Bachelor is finally going away after like 15 straight months. It's going away for a couple of months. So we're going to figure out what we're going to cover. But there's so much reality TV. I'm sure we'll find something. All right. It's great to have you on the Ringer. Say hi to Seth. Thank you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing it, as always. Thanks to Dylan Berkey and Steve Surdy. Thanks to Solak and Mahoney and Callie Curry. I will see you in this feed on Sunday with Rosillo.

And don't forget, I'll have a FanDuel parlay bet for you. Go check out the FanDuel sportsbook. Coming so close with these NBA parlays. Just Wednesday night, missed by one Robert Williams rebound. Almost hit five to one. Celtics to cover. Smart 15 plus points. Smart two plus three throws. Robert Williams, 10 rebounds. He only got nine. He still won. I'm not bitter about it. I'm going to come back on Friday. I'll see you in there. I'll see you in this feed on Sunday. Enjoy the week.