The Bill Simmons Podcast - Did the Celtics Just Blow the Title? | With Kevin Hench

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin Hench to discuss the Warriors’ Game 5 win over the Celtics, the improvement of Andrew Wiggins and Klay Thompson throughout the series, struggles from the Celtics bench, HC Steve Kerr vs. HC Ime Udoka, Gary Payton II’s impact on the series, Game 6 predictions, and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Kevin Hench Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, a podcast I didn't really want to do. I just went to game five, Warriors Celtics. I thought long and hard about not doing this podcast, but I guess we're doing it. And it's coming up next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book

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Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. A new Rewatchables is coming on Tuesday night. We're doing a Steven Seagal movie. Kyle Brandt requested it. He's joining me. You could probably guess which one we're doing. You could probably take it to the bank. But yeah, it was really, really fun to talk about that. A lot more fun than what we're about to talk about. Just went to Game 5 Celtics Warriors. I am in my hotel room. I'm pretty bummed out. I'm not going to lie. If you love hearing a bummed out Bill Simmons do a podcast, this is the podcast for you. I figured I would call one of my biggest Boston friends,

my buddy Kevin Hench, and we're just going to talk about what the hell happened to our season, which looked so promising when we were up 2-1. I'm using Wee like I'm on the team. I'm shattered. I'm a mess. The podcast is coming next.

First, Pearl Jam. I'm shattered. I'm a mess. The podcast is coming next. First. Pearl Jam. All right. taping this. It is 9.11 p.m. Pacific time. I think I just watched the Celtics throw away the 2022 title. Not positive because that's what this team does. My buddy Kevin Hatch is here. We're going to have a Boston pity party. Look, I've been doing podcasts this whole time.

I've been super reliable. Every once in a while, you just have to hear us have a complete meltdown. Hench, before we do that, though, so what changed these last two games? I sketched this out in a solid six minutes. The biggest thing to me is Wiggins. Wiggins in the last two games, 17 and 16 in game four, and then in game five, 26 and 13, he was the best player on the floor. He looked like the guy I thought Jalen Brown was going to be coming into the playoffs. So just quickly, that was not, not a variable we were kind of expecting, right?

Although he's had a good year. I mean, you know, it's not surprising when he makes a shot, it is surprising when he gets 29 rebounds in consecutive games, that that's a little puzzling. And was super confident. Like today he was over six from three, but he was 12 for 23 from the game. So he was 12 for 17 on twos and was going to the basket with impunity to the point that I was jealous because,

you know, our guys, when they were going to the basket, they're, they're getting stripped, they're throwing up the backboard, and it's just like, isn't that supposed to look like what Wiggins is doing? Yeah, like you kind of hit the corner of the glass and it goes in. That's what the layup looks like, right?

All right, so Wiggins, one difference. Second difference, the Boston bench. Game four, five for 16, shooting. Game four, five for 16, shooting. Game five, one for eight, the three guys. Your guy Pritchard came in.

You can say he's like a son to you. You've actually said the words, if you could take me when I was age 17 and turn me into an NBA player, I would have been Pritchard. Comes in, misses two threes, confident threes.

And after he missed the second one, deer in the headlights. And they take him out with a five. His five minutes was obviously personally devastating for me because I do regard him as the son I never had. First of all, you miss his first touch. He runs out of bounds. He catches an inbounds pass in the corner. I forgot. He's standing out of bounds. That's his first touch, he runs out of bounds. He catches an inbounds pass in the corner. I forgot.

He's standing out of bounds. That's his first touch. And then I believe he misses three threes before he mercifully gets sent to the bench. So that was as bad a five minutes as you can play. And then, you know, the Derek White confident three-point shooter that reared his head momentarily in this series was so exciting. And then we did not see him when we needed him on those two threes

when the tide was turning. Yeah, we'll recap when everything turned, but you made the key point. He had two open threes. He was 0 for 4 in this game. You go back to Game 7, Milwaukee. The roll guys are the guys that win ugly games like this. And the roll guys for the Celtics, I don't know what happened to Grant Williams

from this impact guy in the Bucs series that it actually seemed like he was the sixth starter in a lot of ways, but he went sideways. So the bench, that was big. Third thing, turnovers, game 4-15 for Boston, game 5-18. Now, if you just told me before the game, the Celtics are going to have 18 turnovers and there's going to be two different moments when Marcus Smart and Ime Adoka get technicals from yelling at Mark Davis and Tony Brothers,

what do you think the result of the game would be? What would you have said? Double digit loss. Okay, so we have that. They get a miracle Curry. He's seven for 22. He misses every three. Now they're throwing double team.

They're doing stuff at him. But I went to the game. I was there. I thought Curry definitely did not seem 100%. I don't know what it would look like on TV to you. I mean, you know, the crazy thing in terms of whether he's playing hurt or not still finishes around the rim. If Jason Tatum could finish around the rim like the smallest guy on the court,

the Celtics would be in much better shape. But as I texted you, Jason Tatum is shooting 30.6% from two-point land in this series. He's 19 for 62 from two-point land. In today's NBA, two-point land is layups and foul line jumpers. They're really hard under two-point shots. And he cannot finish around the rim. And it is maddening.

But, you know, Steph finished around the rim in traffic. He just was 0 for 9 from behind the arc. So this was the one, obviously, you had to steal. The one bad game Steph's going to have. And we just played like dog shit. Jalen Brown probably certainly had his worst game of the season, but it's up there for his career. 5-18 with 5 turnovers.

It felt worse. It felt like he had 10 turnovers. The Celts scored 39 in the first half. Come out in the third quarter. They scored 31 over the next 10 minutes. They're up 70-67 with two minutes left. And then over the next 10 minutes and 30 seconds, they scored nine points total.

And it goes from 70-67 to 79-93. Well, the Warriors were a little on the ropes, and then Klay hits two threes, and then Poole hits a three, and then, you know, I mean, we talk about it all the time. These Celtic possessions at the end of quarters, you know, I mean, obviously we've never executed a two for one ever. This goes back to Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy.

It's like a minus two for one. It's never happened. But, you know, so we come down. There's like 27 seconds left when we get the ball. So we're gonna use the entire shot clock and get a terrible shot that that's a given, you know, but there'll be just enough time left for somebody to throw a heave for the Warriors. And sure enough, it works out exactly right. Jalen takes a terrible contested desperation shot at the shot clock buzzer, long rebound, kick out to Jordan Poole, and he banks it in. And you just felt it at that moment. Sort of like when Marcus banked in the shot in game three, you're like, oh, I think we're going to win this game. And when Jordan Poole banked in the buzzer beater, I was like, oh, we're going to lose.

It did something worse than that. It got the crowd back into it. Because they kind of haymakered the crowd in the first 10 minutes of the third quarter. The combo of the shot. All of a sudden, the Celts are playing with pace. Tatum hit some dagger threes and really started to look like he had a 40-point game in him. And then Curry couldn't make anything. And it was interesting because I've been there, obviously when Curry gets hot and there's no connection in the NBA and probably in sports,

like the connection with Curry and that, and that crowd when he's feeling it, it's like, it's a snowball downhill and you're just going to get caught. It's an avalanche when he's not feeling it, which was the experience today, the crowd was, it was kind of like disbelief. It wasn't like awkward silence. Nobody was mad. It was just like, wait, is he, what's going on here? We're in Bizarro World? So it did feel like it was there for the taking

and they lost the momentum. But the problem, Ime knew he wasn't getting anything from his bench, so he just kind of had to keep Tatum and Brown out there. I don't think they came out in the second half. Did they? I don't think so. You know, I mean, it's weird because Tatum's line is deceptive because he's 10 for 20.

Now he does it to your point about fatigue. He does shoot four air balls in the second half, four shots that hit the floor before they hit anything else. And he did, I believe, with his four turnovers tonight, I believe he broke LeBron's season playoff record for turnovers. And so, you know, you and I for years have been wanting him to drive the ball, drive the ball. Obviously we remember when he announced himself with the dunk on LeBron, he never dunks on anybody anymore. Like If somebody told me he can't dunk anymore, I'd go, oh gosh, that explains it.

He never finishes with strength and he never makes the ref. I know he complains on every mislayup, but he never wants contact. He contorts himself with these circus shots around the basket that avoid contact and make it a difficult shot. And then he slaps the pad on the stanchion while Wiggins is making a layup at the other end.

And it's maddening. So you have a guy who set the single season playoff record for turnovers, who's shooting under 31% from two in the playoffs. And I still feel like I want him to drive. And I'm like, why do I want him to drive? There are two things that are going to happen. If he drives, he's probably going to turn the ball over or there's a 69% chance.

He's going to miss whatever shot he gets. Clearly the best option for Tatum is the step back three pointer, which he's quite a droid at. Um, well, it was weird. He had the strangest game because near the end of the second quarter, I felt like he

didn't want the ball anymore. He actually was hot potatoing it the last three minutes. He passed up. They were shooting on the basket on the side I was sitting. He passed up an open three with three minutes left. Stuff like that where you're just like, what's going on? Are you tired? But then third quarter came out

and was like Tatum again. And then like you said, like, like all of a sudden he wasn't going to the basket anymore. And then at the moment kind of died, but he was, he was there for 10 minutes, but we were down 16 at the outset before he took a shot.

Jalen had taken eight shots before Tatum took a shot. So it was weird passivity. And obviously he gets very passive in a very weird way. And look, I don't want to sound like Skip Bayless, who's like LeBron should shoot against the quadruple team. Like obviously there's a good basketball play to be made on every possession. And I commend Tatum for how much that part of his game has improved. And by the way, he's an excellent defender. I actually thought he played at a good all-around game,

except for I just think he needed to shoot 30 times in this game. Yeah, exactly. Which, you know, so he was very passive to start. Then when he came back right at the end of the first quarter, he was three for three. And it was like, kind of, we started to climb back in. And yeah, I know. It's like sometimes, like Steph did in game four, your best player has to take over the game.

And he was the only guy that was going to do it tonight because he actually had his stroke going from deep. He was five for nine from three. But yeah, everyone else was not up to it. And Marcus, you and I have been talking about Marcus for so long, but I cut Marcus Smart a lot of slack because he's not very good at basketball. I mean, he has made such an incredible career.

When you think about what he was when he arrived in the NBA, he has made himself a useful, I mean, obviously defensive player of the year, which I think you and I might both think is a bit of a stretch, but obviously an excellent- No, I voted for him. I'm in on it. Okay.

Okay. So he wrings so much out of what he brings to the court based on effort and intelligence. He really knows the game. He's a leader. But Tatum's just much better at basketball. Tatum actually has knows the game. He's a leader, but like Tatum's just much better at basketball. Like Tatum actually has this incredible game. Tatum's been the best player on the court ever since he was 10 years old. And so I hold Tatum to a higher standard and it really drives me crazy when he takes it to the basket. And I'm like, did he not get fouled? Like, how did he miss

that layup by that much? Like, wasn at the basket? Can I see that again? How do they always roll off? It's just maddening. And then I have to remind myself if Chris Middleton wasn't injured, we would have lost in five games to the Bucs. Oh my God. And then Tatum's 24. I feel like in three

years, the two things he needs to work on is the 15 foot pull up after he beats his guy, where it's either a three pointer or he's driving to the basket and there's no in between. He has that floater game. He just doesn't have yet. He doesn't have it. And the post up game that Clay Wiggins and Steph all do very well is, is driving that man off and shooting a 15 or 16 footer. Now you texted, you had a text that indicated that,

and I feel this way about game four and five, but every team, and obviously the Celtics have gone further than this unit has yet, but it felt in game four like we hit a maturity ceiling. We hit our maturity ceiling where it's like,

yeah, there's this weird ineffable thing where the final hurdle to being a champion is the hardest hurdle and we might just not be there mentally and emotionally. Well, and

depth-less, I think, is the bigger thing because Tatum had to play 44 hard minutes. Watching, just being at the game, he was playing real high-level, excellent defense. And the stuff they were doing on Curry, all those guys had to buy in. It had to be smart and Jalen and Tatum, and they could never lose sight of him. And then White came in, same thing. So he was maximum effort on defense. And I think that's why the air balls, you just have to excuse those.

And some of the turnovers second half, he had such a responsibility at the same time, you know, the, the, the stage was set here for an amazing game. When, when they,

in the third quarter, when it seemed like they had taken a little bit of control and Curry was out and it's like, Oh my God, we might actually win this. Then you start thinking game six is in Boston. Remember that? Ten minutes? My mind. It did feel like there was a

realistic chance that we were going to be up eight at the end of the third quarter, the way it was going. They would have a little bit of a hill to climb. That sequence where they got 12 points from Klay and Poole and end up ahead at the end of the third quarter was a stomach punch for sure. But I don't mind 24-year-old guys playing 44 minutes with a ton of TV timeouts and regular timeouts. I'm like, it's the finals.

Yeah, that's fair. And You know, you've got it. Yeah, that's fair. And one thing I would also say about this Celtic team, we've been noticing it all year since they flipped the switch and the defense just started taking over games. I mean, we were just getting, in the regular season, we would be up by 25 in the second quarter,

like three times a week. Like it was crazy when this team came together. And I will say all playoffs long, incredible physical fitness, like incredible, like not grabbing their shorts. Like they play really hard. They defend for the full 24 seconds and guys are not gasping. So I love that about them. The defense in the third quarter was exceptional. One of the reasons I got really optimistic because I was watching our bench. Our bench was kind of average excitement first half,

but a little deer in the headlights. People are standing. Third quarter, Grant's talking. He's chirping with Klay Thompson. Every time there's a play, guys are doing the fist pump, going on the court. And it just felt, and I was watching it going, man, E-May must've given an awesome halftime speech.

He must've given one of those, we are not gonna roll over like this. And they seem locked in and it had that feeling. It reminded me a little bit of, I was at Milwaukee-Boston game five in Boston when Milwaukee stole that game. And it was the same kind of thing. The bench was like, we're going to take this.

We got this. And that last two minutes, when they couldn't sub for Jalen and Tatum, lost a little momentum. And then that little sequence we described at the end that led with the pull. And all of a sudden, the Warriors are winning at the end of the third quarter.

It's like, what just happened? Then we go to the fourth quarter. Derek White misses the two threes. And it's a wrap. Wait, we got to take a break. And then I want to do... We have to talk Warriors because I'm just so impressed by that team.

And then we got to do a big picture Boston thing. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too.

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Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks.

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I think if the Warriors win, and I didn't really get there tonight as like, man, that doesn't seem like a finals team to me. We're like, Wiggins is their second best player? That doesn't make a lot of sense. But he has gotten better during the series, which you can't say about anybody in the Celtics. But the big thing for me is like their offense is just consistently at least

solid and sometimes good. And then sometimes really good. Like they, you know, they got to, they got to a hundred points again. They're always, they never have droughts,

I guess is my point. That third quarter drought they had was pretty unusual for them. It's really hard to hold them down. And then when they can come back with this barrage of threes like they had in the second quarter, when all of a sudden it was like three, three, three, I think they had four threes in a row. Clay and Poole and Curry together or, you know, Clay have Poole out there where we're not torching him has been their biggest advantage. It seems like they always have two scorers out there, right? And, I mean, the thing is, I know he had his first bad game of the series, but Steph creates

your, it's very hard to not get a good look when you're on the court with Steph Curry. He just demands like, you know, the movement he creates with the defense, just with his ball handling, the switches he's creating. And so, you know, obviously an open look for Klay is a great shot. Wiggins, he was over six from three tonight, but he's proved very capable around the court.

They're all good shots. And so they tend to get really good shots. I mean, look, we love Steph Curry. We love how he's – everybody loves Steph Curry. capable around there are good shots and and and so they tend to get really good shots i mean look we we love steph curry we love how he's everybody loves steph curry we love how he's changed the game you know from that that uh pistons nick slugfest of the turn of the century to this just wide open you know you've got to guard guys at 35 feet now you It's insane. So, if you have to get beaten by anybody, Steve Kerr and Steph Curry

are not real villains. You don't want to lose to Draymond, but Steph Curry. Yeah, Curry creates, even if he doesn't have the box score, it is one of those. You kind of have to actually watch the game.

You can't just look at the stats. He creates so many four-on-threes. There's so many open looks. There's so much running on the defensive side. I would love to see somebody try to break down the stats when people play the Warriors. Do the perimeter guys just run more? Because it just feels like they're at maximum exertion.

It would be so frustrating to just see this guy every couple days for two weeks. He is crazily fit. He can run baseline screens. He can just run, run, run. If you take a breath, the ball's in the basket.

Of his 14 field goals in game four, 12 of them were contested. Like, this guy's nuts. Come on, man. Yeah, so you think, like, they hit with that pool draft pick. The Wiggins trade was great.

They were able to salvage a declining Draymond, at least in this game. I thought he was, like, fairly effective, and he had a couple, you know, drives down the lane, stuff like that. The Looney thing, who's gotten less minutes in the series, goes on. The big adjustment they seem to make is they're okay

going smaller. They don't feel like our size can hurt them in the same way because they're getting our bigs in space. That's been part of what's been such a bummer about Tatum's inability to finish around the rim. They don't have any rim protectors. It doesn't make sense.

They have no shop locker. Dunk on them. What is around the rim is like, they don't have any rim protectors. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. They have no shot blocker. Dunk on them. Like, what is going on? It is interesting to look at these two teams. And like I mentioned, Middleton earlier. And, you know, I mean, that Bucs series goes seven. And I don't think we win it if Middleton can play.

And then, you know, a gritty Jimmy Butler, the ball is in the air with 11 seconds left. You know, we're not winning that game if that three-pointer goes in. And then on their side of the bracket, you know, I mean, John Moran gets hurt and then they dodge the Suns. So you could argue that neither of these teams really belong in the finals. But of the two teams that are in the finals, the team that had 123 games of finals experience seems to be the one that's going to prevail. And they're very well coached. Kerr does little...

I've been so impressed by... I'm biased. I like Kerr. I've been friends with him for a long time. But, you know, it's not like he's been hitting home runs as a coach, right? He has, like, if you go really watch like the last seven minutes of game seven, 2016, like there's rough moments. Like he's got a Zealy on an Island against LeBron for two straight threes. And

so I'm not saying he's like the greatest coach of all time, but I think he's been amazing in these playoffs and it's like little stuff, right? It's he'll call the timeout after somebody makes the first free throw. And then he calls it. Just like these little touches. Or he'll call a timeout, they're up eight or they're up 10, and the Celtics make a three, and he'll just immediately call the timeout to stop it.

So we don't even feel like we have momentum. You know, you mentioned the avalanche. You know, he's courtside for so many avalanches that his team does to other teams that he's acutely aware of like, ooh, this might be the start of one for them. And it's always better to call the timeout a little early than a little late. And he always does. You know, as soon as you get excited, you're like, ooh, I think we're starting to make a run. He's like, oh, he knows.

So he's called timeout. And then the other thing that we talked about quite a bit before game four, you know, was would he be willing to have Draymond yell at him? You know, and he proved he was. Maybe he's the only guy who's not intimidated by Draymond because the officials certainly are.

Yeah, it's funny. I thought Clay was going to be the tough decision for them. But Clay's been really good the last couple games. I thought his defense, again, was fantastic. I thought Klay was going to be the tough decision for them. But Klay's been really good the last couple games. I thought his defense, again, was fantastic. I feel like Wiggins and Klay have gotten better as the series goes along. And nobody in the Celtics has gotten better as the series went along. I can't think of a single person who I'm like, oh, that guy's better than he was a week ago.

And Klay Thompson's another guy. How do you root against the guy who didn't play for 941 days? Right. And just was, you know, working in the gym doing leg lifts for three years, you know? It's insane. So, yeah, it's obviously losing sucks.

Losing game four sucked. Losing tonight sucked. But it's a very hard team to hate. Yeah, the one thing with Emei, and he's a rookie coach, there's a couple moments in the game he just, I don't feel like has coached enough games to see the little stuff. Kerr has now been doing this since the 2014-15 season. He's eight years in.

He really has a sense, not just of his team, but like those little things. I felt like when the Celts, when they, with two minutes left in third quarter, there was a moment there when it's like, you know what? I know there's only two minutes left and you can try to take this to the quarter, but Jalen and Tatum, these guys, they've been like laying out.

And I just like, let's just try to get out of this quarter. Let's do everything we can. Use two timeouts if you have to. But little stuff like that. I was impressed, though. White didn't have it. White is back to deer in the headlights, White. And, you know, another rollercoaster.

You're wide open for a three. And you convey to the entire arena, I'd really rather not take this shot. Do I have to? Nobody runs at you because they're like, we really want you to the entire arena. I'd really rather not take this shot. But then nobody... Do I have to? Nobody runs at you because they're like,

we really want you to take that shot. Okay, well then I guess that ball never goes in. Well, he did the two in a row and Imei immediately had Smart back up. But there was little stuff. They stumbled onto something against Pool in the second quarter

when they were posting up Smart on Pool. He posts up Pool, something good happens. They do it again. The Warriors immediately doubled it. This is in the second quarter. And it ends up, ball gets swung around. To me, it's like, if you're doing anything that causes an immediate double, I'm just going to keep doing that. That's like, oh, we've stumbled on oil here. Let's just go.

It was the last time we saw him post up Poole. Then when Poole came in the second time, Kerr staggered it. He brought Poole in when Smart was out of the game. It's little stuff like that. That's how you lose a series. Poole, every other team was destroying and torching.

They're doing everything possible to get a good offensive player against him. And the Celtics just kind of let him hang out. They don't torture him at all. The other thing the Warriors do, they spread the floor obviously so well. And then when they start creating the scramble of rotations and recoveries,

somebody cuts to the basket. This is something we never do. Like somebody, so it's like, hey, why is Gary Payton Jr. getting an uncontested layup? Oh, because he cuts to the basket. This is something we never do. So it's like, hey, why is Gary Payton Jr. getting an uncontested layup? Oh, because he cuts to the basket against this mad scramble where everyone is fanning out to the three-point line. And the Warriors, I would say their half-court movement, as you spoke to with the constant running, it's just so much, the action is so much more designed to create good shots and layups. I mean, they started the game with a layup when Tatum fell asleep and Otto Porter got a layup.

And the Celtics, I feel like it's all designed for a kickout. It all is designed to result in somebody getting a three-point shot. And two-fifths of those guys are usually guys the opposition is fine getting a three-point shot. So it is, obviously, we have no, I feel like we have absolutely no limitations defensively. Like, you know, unless Pritchard, you know, is in there for five minutes, but everybody in the rotation has great switchability, great connectivity, but on the offensive end, we run out of ideas real quick.

Yeah, sometimes you see this, right? Where there's 23 games now of playoff game film, right? 23. And it just feels like everybody has figured out what the Celtics do. And now it's like, what's the plan B? You know, you pointed out in the heat series,

like just how good we are when we push the ball, when we're able to push the ball, whether it's off turnovers or, you know, defensive rebounds. But you know, when, when we come up in the half court,

we're just very pedestrian. I meant to tell you this, somebody, somebody works for the Celtics. Because I was like, are we going to play with pace today? Like, we just push the ball. Is that going to happen today? And they showed me this.

It was points by second of when it was scored on the shot clock. And it was just a straight line down. Of course. Which is basically, as it got closer and closer last day, it was literally just this 45 degree angle. And the person told me, look, this is what we tell these guys. Here's what happens when you push and here's what happens when it slows down. And you get in the game, I know they're tired. They're only playing like six guys basically. So I understand it. But when they play with the pace and they're pushing it, when

Horford's flying down, that's when it feels like the Celtics. So I don't know if they can get back there. No, anything that approaches the clogged toilet offense, right? That's the worst. That's the end of the graph. It's the fade away at the shot clock buzzer. That's the worst result. Anything with pace and aggression to the basket. And, you know, I mean, he didn't play well tonight, but like all playoffs long,

Jalen's been finishing well in transition. Like Jalen's been our best player for huge stretches of these playoffs. So tonight was obviously a bummer. I still love him though. All right, well, let's end this Boston pity party with this. I'm sorry to the listeners this podcast was so Boston-centric, but sometimes it's going to happen.

This is the third time now during the playoffs where I felt like the season was over. The first time was after Game 5 of the Milwaukee Series, walking home with my dad, and I was like, we just lost Milwaukee series, walking home with my dad. And I was like,

we just lost the title. I can't believe it. What just happened? Then the second time was Miami. Um, games, game six. What just happened?

Oh my God. We just lost the title. And now it feels the difference this time is against Milwaukee, I really did feel like the Celtics had a better team and we blew it, right? In game five. It was like,

we're actually, without Middleton, we're actually better than that team. Even though they have Giannis, give him 40 and 50, we're still better. Miami, definitely better. It was like,

really, we're going to blow it to this crazy Miami team? Like, what the hell is happening? Golden State actually might be better. This is the most alarming moment of the three times because I actually think Golden State, the Gary Payton stuff, Gary Payton,

we didn't mention, 26 minutes tonight, 6 for 8, had some great cuts. There was that inbounds play, Iguodala. He just back cut. How many back cuts did they have today? It feels like Golden State's getting better. As I said, I cut Marcus a lot of slack, but one thing I can't

cut him slack on is falling asleep on an inbounds pass in the NBA Finals. You only have to concentrate for 40 minutes. This is the most important two weeks of your career. And when Gary Payton Jr. cuts back door, Marcus is sound asleep.

Just watch. He is asleep. This is not interesting enough for you to pay attention for the entire 40 minutes. That's what the Warriors thrive on that, though. They are dying for those five times a game when somebody just gets caught napping. Or they're

looking at whatever. and all of a sudden their guy is behind them going for a lift. I think the movement they have, the fact that Wiggins is clearly getting better. You could see when Peyton got hurt in that Memphis series, how upset they were. One of the reasons they were so upset is

because they didn't think they could win four straight rounds if they didn't have him. He brought all this athleticism and defense and these things that nobody else on their roster had. So now it makes more sense when you see he's just become more and more of a factor. So it seems like one team is getting better. The other team's getting worse.

So we head to game six, Boston. I guess the silver linings would be as follows. Game's home. That's great. More rest for Horford, which I think he definitely looks more spry when he gets got the two days between the games. And then I assume

it's Scott Foster, the extender coming to Boston. Has the season reached a point where we're like, please give us Scott Foster for game six. It's our last chance. You know, it's funny when you look at, like we were discussing,

like would I have rather had the Patriots 19-0 season, let's say they call any of the holding penalties on the Giants on the helmet catch, or I could have that or 28 to three. And I was like, I would take 28 to three. It's just the greatest, it's the greatest performance. Like, I mean, 19 and oh, it would have been nice, but I, I, I just personally, the 28 to three is, is the greatest two hours and 15 minutes of football viewing I've ever experienced. So, so when you look at the Patriots run,

it's like we finished with the right number of Super Bowl titles. You know, we could have maybe won one of the others, but we might've lost one of them. And when I look at these Warriors, like this doesn't feel like a championship team to me either, even though Steph is obviously Pantheon guy. But you know, you look at 2019 and you look at the Draymond

ejection series and you're like, well, they definitely if they win this, will be closer to the proper number of championships that this dynasty deserves. Right. If they win this, that would be four. And that's right around what the over under I think would have been when they're starting this whole thing. I agree with you. I was talking to Kendrick Perkins before the game, who's just a delight. He was talking about the 2012 Thunder, the team that he was on that made the finals against Miami. They were young like the

Celtics team. The feeling was like it was the start of something special. Here we go. Like, yeah, we were young, but Durant was, you know, probably better in that series than Tatum has been in this series. But for the most part, the arrow is pointing up, we'll be back, all that stuff. And they never got back, you know, the next four years, that was it. And it all culminates in 2016. They blow the three to one lead to the Warriors and that's it. The window closed. And that's why with the Celtics team, both of us are a little older now. We've seen a lot of basketball. We've seen a lot of sports. I just don't trust windows at all. I know the Celtics team's young. I know the arrow's pointing up. All these guys are under

great contracts. I'm sure they can add a couple of whatevers. But we might not be back. You think that 2010 game 7 in the Lakers when Rashid's playing 35 minutes, comes so close to the title and you don't get it. That team never made the finals again. You're never back.

Because Perks hurt and we can't get a rebound. So even though the Lakers shoot 32.5% from the field and 20% from three, we lose because Kobe gets 15 rebounds and Kevin Garnett gets three. It's like it was yesterday. But so the other problem with windows is that Ole Giannis is going to be sitting in our window for the next 10 years. That guy is the best player on the court by far when he's out there.

It's not close. And what happens when Miami does their typical, oh, Miami just traded Tyler Harrow and Duncan Robinson and three first-rounders for Donovan Mitchell. Now, Donovan Mitchell's on my, like, I just, the East, I think it's good. It's the, you know, there's a whole bunch of teams that could probably be one move away. And, you know, that's like, you know, the stakes for game six, the crowd will be there. It's, you know, it's a Thursday night in Boston. It's a late start. Everybody will be out early. The crowd will, but we will show up. We'll see what kind of shape Curry's in.

But, you know, it's to now think that this team is officially, once again, the season could be over with a loss. We've now been here. This is the third do or die elimination game. What is your psyche like? Because I feel like I need a vacation from the playoffs. I am so exhausted. I am so physically exhausted.

I mean, sometimes on the West Coast with the 6 o'clock tip-off, somewhere around 4 p.m., I start to get sad. I'm like, oh, shit. I got to watch this fucking game. Oh, my God. It's like grueling. It feels like a— So grueling.

I know it's sports, but it's, you know, it almost feels more like hockey when we have those hockey runs. When it's like, I'm not even enjoying this. What is this? This is like having a root canal. No, we have like, you know, obviously we have like five different

emotional support group text threads going. And then you always tip me off. Like when someone in the text thread is just too catatonic to even communicate anymore. Yeah, just communicate with me directly. Yeah. There's nothing like it. It sounds like we're complaining. We're not. I would not trade places with anyone else in the play. And I'm just saying after 23 games of this, and none of these games were easy. The Brooklyn series was the hardest sweep that anyone's ever had in the play. And I'm just saying after 23 games of this and it's none of these games were easy. The Brooklyn series was the hardest sweep

that anyone's ever had in the history of basketball. Every game was a nail biter. And it is crazy that given all we've been through this spring that our team is one of the two teams that is still playing in the finals.

A team that we just text all the time. Is this team good? What's going on with this team? And then all of a sudden, they'll have another 10-minute stretch like the one they had today, and they seem like the best team in the world. Now, you can't expect to win a game

when you play one good quarter against anybody. So that was disappointing that they only could put it together for 10 minutes. Yeah, you're right. But if they win game six, I do feel like in a weird way, the pressure is kind of off. It all shifts to

Golden State. If the Celtics win game six and then it's like, you're expected to hold serve. I don't know if I can go to game seven. The game seven in Golden State would give me the flashbacks to 2010, which was a top five worst sports night of my sports fan life.

Just all time awful. Does Draymond recognize you? Draymond recognizes me. I'm not on the court. No, but of all the people in the arena, the guy most likely to taunt you probably plays for the Warriors. He'll be looking for me in both of the sections. He was so mad when he got kicked out of the game today.

I thought he was... I don't even know who he was mad at. He was yelling at people to challenge. It turned out that... It wasn't a know who he was bad at. He was yelling at people to challenge. It turned out that- It wasn't a foul. It was really a lame call. Like it was kind of a foul on Curry maybe, but it was a bad call.

But, you know, I still don't understand like how Draymond, first of all, Imei got teed up immediately. Like I didn't even like get the mask lowered. I don't know what he said. And then I didn't see, I just saw that Marcus got a technical, but Draymond's histrionics, Draymond walking into the

Celtics bench, Draymond, like these Draymond rules where he, you know, he can stir things up. He can scream at a ref for three minutes in his face. It's just nothing. And smart. Smart's like 10 seconds. Yeah, the rules do seem a little different.

Well, now we sound like we're complaining. All right. What do we think happens game six? Um, I think Celtics force game seven. I don't think they can win game six

unless the bench shows up. That's a, that's a half-assed prediction. But we saw it with game seven, Milwaukee. And we're going to see it the rest of the way. Peyton Pritchard will make his first three. What happened to Peyton Pritchard? This is what I do after made threes.

We're screaming at his bench. Where's that guy? Can that guy come back? Well, you got to make it. That's the key to that hole. That's how that works. However this goes, we only have a couple days left

and then we move on to the Red Sox and wondering why they have not extended Raphael Devers, who's the best hitter in the American League, why they just won't give him money so he can be in our lives for the next 10 years. The Cutter Crawford era is underway. It's going to be a good time.

Kevin Hatch, good to see you as always. All right, brother. Talk soon. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing as always. Thanks to Dylan Berkey and Steve Cerruti as well. I'm going to see you Wednesday and Thursday this week. So two more podcasts coming. Unless I drink too

much tonight and I end up in a jail in San Francisco. Don't rule that out. I feel it's working On the wayside I'm a bruised soul I never was And I don't have To ever forget