The Bill Simmons Podcast - Disney vs. Everybody, Facebook’s Shadiness, Snapchat’s Comeback, and the Future of Tech With Kara Swisher | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: August 5, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by tech journalist Kara Swisher to discuss early internet, Facebook's influence, policing social media, the internet through the ages, flying cars, future technology, interviewing tech magnates, hosting effective panels, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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apply our friends from Pearl Jam Free access. Cancel anytime. Terms do apply. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. Kara Swisher is here. We're taping this August 1st, actually. I don't know when it's going to be. I don't know. So if anything weird happens in the tech world that we didn't address.

I will call you. Yeah, we'll just like, we'll dub it over. You never know with the tech world. Well, they may be off for August. We'll see. Every day there's something else. Stranger. You know they may be off for August. We'll see. Every day there's something else stranger. You know, just this new Facebook thing. We can go into it.

New Facebook thing? The mind reading thing. Oh, yeah, yeah. This mind reading thing, yeah. I think because you've been in the mix for a while here, people don't realize you basically have been doing this since the start of the internet. Yes. You were on the ground floor, so to speak.

Yes, indeed, since the early 1990s. Yeah, I was on the third floor. Were you on the third floor? Yeah. When the internet was commercialized by legislation, Al Gore was a critical part of it, even though people make fun of him. But he really was. He didn't invent the internet,

but he certainly was critical to its beginnings as a commercial entity. It had been a government entity before then and used as a communication system. I didn't really start even using email until 96. Oh, wow. But I kind of knew stuff was going on, but it was just people in computer labs in college and weird message boards and things like that.

Yeah, it was Gopher and F, there was another name. So you were in it from that point? Yes, exactly, yeah. Used that point? Yes, exactly. Use that groups. Yes. Yes. I used all this stuff. You know, in the early, there was a thing called Digital City from Apple had something. It was actually run by AOL.

AOL actually ran it for them. That's where my first site was. Oh, was it? Yeah. Digital City Boston. Digital City. Yeah. That was, anyway, there was tons of early stuff.

But they were all echoes of what was coming. Like, you know, I was super early. One thing I was very early to was mobile phones. I worked at the Washington Post and they had a suitcase phone and I claimed it and used it all the time. And I loved it. I loved carrying my suitcase phone. And I kept telling people, you know, everyone's going to have one of these.

It's going to be small. It's going to be like Star Trek. So that was one thing that I thought was much more important than just the internet was the combination of the internet with mobility. And that to me was so critical. It was such a big thing. And then- You didn't think Gordon Gekko and Wall Street? No, I had one of those. I had one of those. I loved him. I did that. I was on a beach. I think someone broke up with me because I was on a phone. I was in Provincetown Harbor and I walked out on low tide so I could get a signal from Boston. And I loved it. And it was great. And what was interesting about it was,

I wrote a story, I just referenced, because I wrote a recent story about not owning a car anymore, because I think that's the next big trend. We can talk about it more if you want. But I just sold my final car. I really thought that mobile phones are going to be everything. And so I did a piece for the wall street journal when I first got there in the, in the 1990s called cutting the cord that I will never have, you know, you will never have landlines.

You will, mobile phones will be getting better and better. And the idea that you would have a cord was crazy to me. And I remember a lot of pushback from people because they liked their land lines or their pay phones or whatever. So, you know, mobile, I think, is more important than anything. Well, the mobile had the bias early on of like, you're going to get cancer. Yeah.

We're all going to have cancer if we have mobile phones. Everyone's going to die. Maybe. And then online. TBD. The early part of online was like, it's going to be like Big Brother. Yeah, it is like Big Brother. Everyone's going to know everything.

They do know everything. That actually was right. That was right. That was 100% right. We should have listened. No, that one was 100% right. And it was, you know, that wasn't the biggest, I think it was the idea, I think people didn't realize how quickly you get distracted and how much you use it and you're in a state of continuous partial attention. I think that's the term that a Microsoft person used to me many years ago, which was you, everyone will be, she was a, she was somebody who did predictions and she said, everyone will be in a state of continuous partial attention. And, and, and it was, and I used the term continuous partial satisfaction today, uh, today in writing a piece for the New York times about the antitrust stuff

is that they, they've got us satisfied like the Amazons, the Googles, the Facebooks. And so we're continuously sort of satisfied, but they reap so much benefit from knowing all our information that we're a cheap date, essentially. It's true. Well, I remember the movie The Net with Sandra Bullock. Yeah, of course. And that was right when the internet was becoming a thing. And again, I was not on the internet yet, mostly because I don't think I had the resources it was like it would have to tie into the phone line and all that stuff

yeah she was searching for a modem to save herself the whole premise of that movie is basically the internet it's evil they can wipe out your entire history in five seconds and all that stuff I don't know if that's true but it is the lessons of that movie as we've watched what has happened the last four years

well that was longer than that the movie was 95 the lessons of that movie as as we've watched what has happened the last four years yeah well that was longer than that that was a long time there was a bunch there was there was a bunch of movies like that sneakers obviously war games is the is going way way back yeah like the idea disclosure remember how they use the email and disclosure like you went into a booth 3d it was 3d it was actually it was it was artificial not an artificial touch, but it was AR, augmented reality. And then VR, it was sort of a VR, AR kind of thing with glasses. That was about, you know, Me Too. And it was also about that, the uses of it, if you remember.

It was Me Too where the guy ends up being the hero. That's right, of course. It was like, oh, you know. Michael Douglas, that's right. Something, you got to watch, sometimes you got to look at it from the guy's perspective. Yeah, I know. That movie is that age though. All things, because, you know, men are victims of most of the things. I just had a look at it from the guy's perspective. Yeah, I know. That movie is that age though. All things, because men are victims of most of the things.

I just had a terrible argument with my son who's 14. He's like, sometimes men get sexually harassed, mom. I'm like, okay. I didn't know what to say. I just watched Disclosure, mom.

Yeah, I know. I was like, I'm not even going to tell him about that movie, but it was fun. I think Total Recall, which I think came out in 1990. Oh, my favorite movie.

Love that movie. It invented FaceTime. It was such a great movie. My favorite thing is when the face- Remember, you could queue up on video. You could talk to somebody. It was like, oh movie. Remember, he could queue up on video. You could talk to somebody.

It was like, oh, that would be cool if that happens. Yeah, but my favorite is when he took the mask and it went, it was better than Mission Impossible. They ripped them off. But it was like, it did this weird geometric thing that came off. Arnold Schwarzenegger has been in so many good sci-fi movies. It's a great run for him. Yeah.

I didn't like when they remade it. Oh, the new one? I just watched it the other day. It's dark. And Christian Bale just grumbles throughout the whole thing. No, it was Colin Farrell. Oh, was it Colin? Yeah. I didn't like when they remade it. Oh, the new one? I just watched it the other day. It's dark. And Christian Bale just grumbles throughout the whole thing. No, it was Colin Farrell.

Oh, was it Colin? Yeah. Is he in that one? Maybe Christian Bale. Christian Bale's in another one. He plays John Connor. John Connor. So.

You know, I'm a Terminator. That's my favorite movie except for, well, no, I'd have to say anything with Russell Crowe in it. You kind of have a little Sarah Connor Terminator 2 vibe

right now with the sunglasses. People keep putting up pictures of me and Sarah Connor. And there's a new one coming out with her. And she's carrying like, there's about two. She looks great. The woman that's in it is in that series that was about the early internet. I'm blanking on her name, but she's an amazing.

She was also in a black mirror. Oh, that one that was on AMC? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Shoot, take charge, shoot and take kill, whatever. She's amazing. She played the hacker in that. And she's in the new Terminator.

And then she was also in a Black Mirror episode that everybody loved. So when they do a show like that, AMC show, do you just get a call? Are you like the unofficial consultant for all of these shows? No, just Silicon Valley. When Mike Judge started it with Alex Berg, they came and saw me, and we talked about it. And like, who could they hook up with? Who could they bring on board? And I just gave them some advice.

They would run some stories. They, they had a bunch of people they ran stories by. Like, you know, I think the one about the, the horse sex one, the one about the,

the conjoined, conjoined triangles of success. Do you remember that? Yeah. And then some like, would, you know, Sean Parker or Mark Cuban talk like this or something like that?

Because obviously a lot of the characters are amalgam of people. Yeah. That's a perfect show. They really nail it. Have they gone out of their way to just completely parody one person in that show where we would never know who the person was? Yeah. You know, like Russ Hanneman was one of my favorite characters and he's like six people mashed into one. I'm like, you know, and then gavin belson the the hooli guy is it eric schmidt is

it larry ellison is it and that actor is fantastic he's a great guy um you don't know who they are but there's a there's a few people that you could guess i was convinced that the woman who plays uh suzanne crier who played who does a brilliant job playing Laurie Bream, the venture capitalist, I was convinced she was playing Marissa Mayer, who was the CEO of Yahoo. But she said she wasn't. She was playing a white guy, essentially, a white programmer guy. So I don't know. I would feel like if she was doing Marissa Mayer, we would know. Yeah.

Because she's very distinct. Yes. I had dinner with her once. She was very distinct. She is. I always thought her voice was, but she wasn't. I think they're playing amalgams of people. They take bits and pieces of some of these people.

And then just their own thing, their own thing. But they nail it pretty closely with a lot of the mannerisms and some of the things. So when the other ones, sometimes I had a guy call me who made that one with Christian Slater. That was with Ronnie, the guy who won. Oh, Mr. Robot. Mr. Robot. And he was, I forget his name,

but he called me because he wanted, I thought it was a joke. They called me, they wanted to buy my AOL book and make it into a movie. And I thought it was like Steve Case

playing a joke on me. Yeah. Like I thought it was a fake call and I'm like, yeah, screw you. And it turned out to be the actual director of that. I don't think they'll ever make

an AOL movie. But, you know, different times when there's tech things. What did AOL do wrong, in your opinion, all these years later? What did they do right, I think, is really the question. Is that what it is? Yes, they're just early. The planes are covered with the bodies of pioneers. I mean, I think doing that purchase was probably the problem.

That was never going to work. It was too early. It was too arrogant. It was, you know, media companies. I think Time Warner had just as much to do with that failure as AOL did, even though it's painted that AOL was this group of sort of Ponzi scheme people. Yeah. I think they were right. Thank God we don't have those people now.

No, they were right on the concepts. Like if Time Warner had embraced that,, it would be a much better, it would have been a bigger and more powerful company. They were right about the idea that, say, movie ads were going away and everything was moving online, and that you needed to marry cable and high speed with content.

Conceptually, on all the bigger ideas they were right, it's the execution that was wrong, I think. But the idea of modern internet company and media companies combining, you see Disney doing it now again, trying to do this streaming platform and at the same time still doing what they do well, which is make movies. I felt like they had a huge lead there for like 15 months. Who did? AOL?

Just with email and just casual people who didn't know that much. It wasn't really- Where it'd be like, oh, I need an email address. What should I do? And most people gravitated to AOL there for a year and a half. Well, it was an online service. It was not an internet site. Because remember, it was a walled garden approach, which Facebook does.

I had my site was on there and my friends couldn't read it at work. Right. You had to have an AOL address. And it was free for you. And then suddenly they turned around and started charging content providers. That's where they really went wrong. Because they were the friend of content providers. But it was like an internet within the internet.

So it was never really going to work because the wider internet was much more. But the way to do it should have been the moment they realized they had as many email addresses as they had. Just open it up to the whole internet. You have a lead. You have all these accounts. They did. And then just go. They did.

And by the time they did they you know and by the time they did it was a little late well they bought they stole from netscape netscape you know yeah they you know they actually stole from compuserve and um the one from sears uh there was two of them there's compuserve they they they were the original ones and then came aol and then aol was supplanted by Yahoo. And then Yahoo was definitely supplanted by Google. And then, you know, and so on and so on. So a lot of people got to a certain point. And then the next technology, which is great about technology, is the young eats its old kind of thing. And so that's one of the positives I see in what's happening now,

although I'm very worried. I write a lot about these big companies may being too big to fail in many ways. They can't be taken down by the typical innovation cycle that happens that kills off the previous. I just thought we weren't supposed to have monopolies, but it seems like we have, we're in a monopoly culture right now more than we've ever been.

Totally. I mean, I wrote a column this week about this in the Times, which was, you know, I was just saying, when's the last time a social network started? When's the last time a search engine started? When's the last time an ad network started? When's the last time a big commerce site started? And I listed, it was a long time ago for each of them. Snapchat was the last big social network to start and it struggles under Facebook's

relentless copying of its great ideas. Right. There's no e-commerce site that's even close to Amazon. I think Amazon is 48% of the market. And I think Walmart and eBay are 7% and 4%. Or eBay is 7%. Walmart is 4%. Like, think of the online commerce. Yeah. Not offline.

And then ad business is dominated by Facebook and Google. There's no big players. And the next big player that's coming up, Amazon. So it's not as if it's some new, fresh company. It's Amazon beating. So all the big ones, the big dinosaurs, are going to fight over it. And then in a search, nobody but Google.

Nobody. I mean, there's DuckDuckGo, but it's 1% of the market. And it's a great service because it doesn't track you. I don't even know what that is. It's 1% of the market. I it's a great service because it doesn't track you. I don't even know what that is. It's 1% of the market. I had Gabe Weinberg, who's the CEO. It's a great service because it doesn't track you. It doesn't do behavioral advertising.

It does contextual advertising. So if you search for a car, you get a car ad versus them mashing together all kinds of things and understanding you in a behavioral sense, which they don't need to do. Yes. I don't like so much of this. Yeah, sorry.

Am I bumming you out? No, I just, I think we're at a really dangerous point. I had a friend, a friend of mine works for Snapchat and like a year ago when their stock really cratered. Yeah. And we were just talking about a Clipper game and I'm like, are you worried? He's like, yeah, it's not great. I think we have some stuff to figure out. But he's like, there's been no platform that's launched in the last five, six,

seven years that has able to accumulate as many users we have. That still should mean something, which was very similar to what people at Twitter were saying. They were like, during the Twitter dark spots, they were saying, all right, yeah, this is a disaster, but we have all these people. Like, it's really hard to do this. And really, Snapchat's the last one that did it. I don't know what's going to happen with TikTok and whether TikTok can get it going.

Then you have the Chinese element. There's a Chinese company that's sort of invading this country, being very popular. There was the sort of FaceApp freakout two weeks ago. That was hilarious. Everybody downloading it at the same time. And then we go, Oh shit.

Which is a two year old company. Right. But I mean, exactly what is Putin going to do with all those faces? I don't know. But the issue is that these, these are out of countries where the government does have significant influence on the companies.

No matter how much they say they don't, you know, the Chinese companies are very close. They don't have many choices if the government comes around. The monopoly thing, though, it's dangerous on 75 different levels. But you were pointing out Snapchat does something good. Instagram just takes it. Yeah.

Oh, that's your best idea. Here's Instagram stories. Yeah, I like Evan Spiegel a lot. And I call him chief product officer of Facebook. He laughs. He's a smart guy. He comes up with, you know, he's, he had his controversies early in that business. And there's definitely some execution problems going on there, you know, in terms of settling on the way to manage that company. They expanded too fast. Yeah. But you know what? He's so creative. Every time I talk to him, I always am like, oh, that's really interesting.

He gives a lot of, Mark Zuckerberg is sort of like the Bill Gates of this era, right? Yeah. Versus a Steve Jobs kind of personality. I don't think it's on the same level, but it's certainly fresh ideas from Facebook are few and far between. But you talk about the great what ifs. Libra, yeah. what yeah if if uh if twitter ends up with instagram yeah dick costello has that whole story about that 48 hours when he thought they had them and then facebook basically steals it in the last second yeah if facebook doesn't do that i think facebook is is going downhill like

fast and hard yes they were they knew it they had to get because i don't i think facebook now has turned into a place for for people 40 and over well you know they instagram was a critical purchaser and so was whatsapp both in the high growth and you know the thing is kevin sistrom left facebook had had it with with the the relentless uh attempts by mark zuckerberg to uh take advantage of that to really to to integrate to use instagram to help Facebook grow. And then the arguments on the Facebook side was we made you bigger than ever, but not because of the reason Instagram has been popular is because Kevin Systrom is innovative and does innovative things. He also steals from Snapchat, but I think people like the Instagram experience. And so

what he wanted to do was these apps to stand on their own as a quality product and then helping each other as part of the Facebook universe. But he left. The WhatsApp creator left Facebook. It says a lot when people like that leave. It seems like simplicity has become more and more in vogue with this stuff. One of the reasons I like Instagram is it's just pictures. They're not trying to shape my thoughts on anything. No, I don't use Instagram that much.

You can look at pictures of your family, your friends, celebrity you like. Yeah, it's well done. You can look at their Instagram stories. I can spend time with whoever I want to. And it's like, oh, LeBron's, it's Taco Tuesday for LeBron. Yeah, people like it. Here's his story. Yeah, of course, that was a Snapchat invention story.

Oh, 100%. I mean, really. But like TikTok, so I have a 14-year- story. Oh, 100%. I mean, really. But like TikTok, so I have a 14-year-old and an 11-year-old, and they are really into TikTok right now, which is basically Vine, right? It's a better, smarter version of Vine. My daughter calls it Vine 2.0. Right.

That's another thing. It's just simple. It's fun. It's happy. And I do wonder if that's where some of this stuff's going to go. Well, you know, all these companies have tried to do that several times, you know, Periscope. There's Vine, Periscope. Facebook tried it. It's been tried. It's really interesting that this particular version, TikTok, is working. What happens in tech a lot is some people try things

and then it doesn't work in one place and then it suddenly works somewhere else. And they're like, what happened? Right, exactly. And so you don't really understand what was that extra little thing that they put in. Again, the concerns about TikTok are as a Chinese company having all this data about, especially about kids in this country.

And so I think there might be some pushback to that. They've just- It's not one of my top 50 concerns for my kids. No, I know, I know. It's maybe like 72nd. I don't know why my kids use TikTok. 73rd? Yeah, I don't know. It's in the 72nd. I don't know why my kids use TikTok. 73rd? Yeah, I don't know.

It's in the top 100. Okay. All right. Well, good. Yeah. Well, they're spending all their time on it, right? Well, they spend their time on that. Instagram stories.

Snapchat's the one. Snapchat. My daughter has been telling me for a while that Snapchat's back because it's the one thing they can do where the things just disappear. It's like they become spies almost. And I read everything on my kids' phones, but the Snapchat will just come and go. Right, exactly. There's nothing I can do about it.

So I can get rid of it and she could be separated from all her friends with this one thing, which is bad for her. So it's like this weird power they've created. Yeah, my son, he complains about Snapchat and the way you complain about something you really like. Oh, I don't like this and that. They hated the redesign, obviously. That was a big misstep for them. But he still uses it all the time. And he's so adept at it.

And it's the way he talks. It's his communications. It's like WeChat in China, except it doesn't have all the other stuff like payments and other things. WeChat, I think, is one of the more perfect products in terms of integrating everything. The partial attention thing, I mean, this is of the more perfect products in terms of integrating everything. The partial attention thing. I mean, this is obviously one of the biggest problems we have right now. But on the other hand, if you go backwards, every generation kind of had their own version of this where they thought-

Gilligan's Island for me. This is going to ruin kids. And you go back to like the 30s and 40s and it was certain books. And so I do wonder if it's a little overblown. But at the same time, I have noticed like it's really hard to get people just one-on-one. Even with our kids, like we take their phones at dinner or else they're going to look at their phones. They can't help it. It is the same, but it's similar, but not the same.

I think that's because these things have addictive qualities. And you know, you have probably- Intentionally addictive. They're totally, they're like slot machine of attention. That's what I think of's because these things have addictive qualities and you know, you have probably intentionally addictive. They're totally they're like slot machine of attention. Yeah, that's what I think of it as and so it's it's just the way look we've always had fake news problems, but now it's amplified and weaponized, you know, and it's iterative in a way that is so hard to control these phones are actually addictive. And I know television is addictive, but it's not, you're six foot distance from it. In this case, it's right next to you. It's constantly pinging you. It's got all the elements of a slot machine,

all the elements of gambling or drug use. And I don't want to go that far, but it really is when you start to see how much time these companies spend. But it's changing your brain chemically. It is a form of drug use. And these companies have psychologists on staff. They've got sociologists. You know, Tristan Harris has done a lot of work around this, although he wants to talk

about the whole systemic issue. It's not just addiction. It's also the fake news. It's the virality of it. It's that negative postings attract more postings. If you do a negative post, it rises the click rate up a massive amount. Just Twitter, for example, is not a big company. It is not big

by any stretch of the imagination. But think of the impact it has with Trump using it, especially the media being constantly addicted to Twitter and what he says on it. It's changed how we govern. He governs by Twitter. He says something to the Justice Department, and then the Justice Department guy says to a judge, I don't know what he meant.

He just tweeted, I need to find out. You know, like think about that. If we did a fantasy draft of things that we should just eliminate and the world would be better, I think Twitter might be my number one choice. I've said that many times. I like it though. I love it. I like it too. That's part of the problem with it.

But I'm sure I would like heroin if I kept trying it. Like at some point there's diminishing returns. I'm not going to touch that. But yes, I agree it too. That's part of the problem with it. But I'm sure I would like heroin if I kept trying it. Like at some point there's diminishing returns. I'm not going to touch that. But yes, I agree with you. I think it's really interesting. If I had to shut down, probably Twitter. Probably Twitter. It definitely, if you made the pro con list, there's some pros, but the cons would be like,

oh yeah, here's another con. Yeah, funny memes. Oh, here's another one. Yeah, funny memes on Twitter are wonderful. You just keep going and going. I think what it's done to media and the attack mentality of people and all that stuff. I think the group think is so dangerous. And just as a creative person, I don't like it.

Like I really like to hear different types of voices and people taking chances and not being afraid. Like if they write a piece, people are going to shit on them for two days because they didn't like the angle. Yeah, I ignore it. I think people take to take to one. them for two days because they didn't like the angle. Yeah, I ignore it. I think people take two sides of this. One is the pile-on thing is really irritating. At the same time, I'm tired of media people saying, oh, I'm being piled on. Oh, the Twitter mom.

Well, don't read the replies. Turn it off. I don't think that's a topic anyone cares about, the difficulties of being a media person in today's era. You don't have to read the replies. I think the issue for me just as somebody who's in running a company that has a lot of young people is they all look at it and it really affects them and i've spent this whole decade at granlin and at the ringer trying to tell people like just ignore that shit they're like hecklers in a crowd don't let that bother you but it does bother them there's no way

around it yeah but then they'll have to figure it does bother them. There's no way around it. Yeah, but then they'll have to figure it. Then they have to man up and not do it. I just, I feel like it's, it's hard to do that. But if you don't stop doing it, you're not going to do it. And the only thing would be to shut it down and it's not going to get shut down. It's not happening. So you're going to have to deal with it and stop ignoring it.

But it's like, you know, I think what's happened, what is interesting, especially like when you see these suicide rates go up and these depression among especially girls, the likes, the whole idea of like and don't like or how many follows, that is definitely plays into what has been a problem since the beginning of time, which is am I liked? Right. But again, this weaponize and amplifies it. And so it takes it to another level that is hard to avoid. And I think that's what the problem is. Well, and then also people trying to present the best version of themselves all the time that isn't realistic with how real life goes. No, no. And I think the people that do really well don't do that as much, which is

when people do that, I did a whole bunch of Twitter things. And sometimes on Instagram, like I was like, urine in San Francisco, urine bottles. And people are like, Tara, stop doing that. I'm like, that's my reality today. There's a lot of people peeing in bottles. Don't follow me. And so at one point, I was almost going to do, you know how Christmas cards are like that, right? You get those idiot sweaters and here we are on our ski trip.

Oh, we're scuba diving in Mexico, that kind of thing. I was going to do a Christmas card of my kids and I like littering, not recycling properly, smoking cigarettes, like just all the bad things. And like looking at phones and ignoring each other. And I thought that would have been a great Christmas card. You should still do that. I think you should do that for 2019. My kids are like, I don't know, mom. I'm like, oh no, we're doing it. So we get all those Christmas cards and every year we just put them in a big bowl. Yeah.

And then one night my wife and I open a bottle of wine and we just go through all the cards for like two hours. Yeah, it should be like televised. Here's the update from the Spelman family. Oh, we love it. And we're making jokes about the cards and oh my God, how they use that picture and all that stuff.

Yeah. All right, so we're wrapping up second decade of the 21st century. Yeah. Which is now three decade of the 21st century, which is now three decades of the internet. Three, yes. So how, if you could describe- That's always the time when industries crack, you know that. Well, if you could describe each decade in a sentence, what would you,

so 90s, 2000s, 2010s, how would you wrap up those decades in one sentence? Star Trek, the first one, like, wow, we're going to finally going to be Star Trek. We're going to finally be everybody, you know, communicators, everyone getting along. Suddenly you can see someone across the world and we're all the same people. It was very hopeful. It was a very hopeful time and exciting.

And they weren't billionaires, all these people, when I met them. Yeah. So they were much nicer. And all these people, when I met them. Yeah. So they were much nicer. Most of them have changed quite a bit. Yeah. All right. So 2000s?

Money, money, money, money, money. Crazy. The stock market, everybody, this sort of dot-com boom. Everybody just obsessed with money, like the stocks. It was really disappointing. It was disappointing and kind of gross to be there. The ridiculous parties. You know, at one point, I forget there was Devo at one.

And then I went to someone's house and they rented like Elton John or something. Like it was just crazy, you know, and planes. 2010s? The reckoning? Reckoning, the reckoning, really. As not at the beginning, you know, everyone, again, Facebook was dominant then. The reckoning, really. Not at the beginning. You know, everyone, again, Facebook was dominant then.

And when Facebook, I remember when they did that third party, it was sort of the seeds of disaster were then. For example, Facebook, there was a Facebook event that Mark was at, and he was trying to attract people to the platform. It's where the whole Cambridge Analytica thing came from initially, is he gave third parties the ability to access Facebook data. And I remember thinking, that's not a good idea. What happens if these little companies, like the lack of privacy violations started there, I think.

It was the seeds of the reckoning. And now we're in the tech lash. If somebody said Facebook is evil, what would your counter be to that? No, it's not evil, but it's thoughtless. It's a people that don't even make an effort to understand consequences, to understand the consequences. Can you describe all of tech that way? I think Facebook is the worst example of it. You know what I mean? In terms of, people say unintended consequences. I think that's not the case. I think they could have seen it easily. I think, you know, I did one and the inability to take responsibility for the impact of the things they do. And I think I like Mark Zuckerberg as a

person and I think he's lovely. He's a thoughtful person, but I've had so many interviews with him which he really doesn't get it. that he he's he's always like the community has to work on this i'm like no the community didn't get a billion 64 billion dollars just you like you're responsible for it you run the company you control the company you cannot be fired you either need to step aside or you need to do your job and i think that's the the the the i don't want to say i won't use. They should have known that there would be a killer that would use Facebook and video to broadcast a killing like they did in New Zealand. They should have known that.

They should have understood that these tools that they put out there without much thought might be abused by people just the way WhatsApp was in India. Just the way, you know, even with this Libra thing, I'm sort of like, have you thought this out? Like, have you thought this out? It's tough because I'm a big believer in the whole try it and see if it works. And once you stop trying things. It's fine when you're a small company.

You're going to die. Yeah. But on the other hand. It's fine when you're a small company. But when you, you know, the reaction to, to me, the reaction to the initial election thing, their first reaction was like we had no impact like knowing your power it was like a cover it was almost like a cover-up they were there's a murder in somebody's mansion like yeah we weren't here that night we're at dinner no i don't know

knives everywhere on every table like what do you think people like i just recall so many conversations not just with facebook or all of them where I would bring up like, well, that could lead to bad things. And they were sort of like, you're a bummer, Kara Swisher. I'm like, yeah, I'm like an adult. I have a sense that maybe things could go awry if you give people unlimited power. I don't know. And I agree with you. There should be innovation, but you don't get innovation from the big people. You get innovation when there's small companies. And that's the problem we have is that there's too many companies. You can't go around these companies. We're at the lowest point of startup creation in a long, long time.

I think for 30 years now. So where are the next startups coming from? And how can they survive when there's all these big companies? And there's not just one like it was Mike. I was just up at Microsoft actually last week. And they used to just dominate everything. And then when they didn't, everything grew up. So what what's they need to get out of the way so the new stuff can come up, seems to me. That's why all the regulators are sort of looking at, you know, they're terrified of Elizabeth Warren and those proposals, but it's not a bad idea to start talking about it for sure. Let's take a break, talk about Helix. You're special.

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providing individual support needs and field preferences for each side. They have a 10-year warranty. You try it out for 100 nights risk-free. They'll even pick it up for you if you don't love it, but we think you will. Helix is offering up to $125 off all mattress orders for our listeners at helixsleep.com slash BS, H-E-L-I-X sleep.com slash BS for up to $125 off. You know, Facebook, all these places, once they really started growing in a big way and competing with each other, and you hit a point where you have a lot of talented people, and they're all trying to come up with a good idea that's going to make the company better, and they're in a room, and it's like, well, what's idea, Karen? And it's like, oh, I have this idea for

Facebook Live. Right. And people will be able to have live video. And then it's like, great idea. Let's start working on it. And they put the best engineers possible on it. Yeah. And they're trapped in the moment of the checkpoints of creating this idea, never kind of looking at each other and going, hey, what happens if some crazy person just starts shooting people on Facebook Live? No, they don't want to. It's a bummer. That's their mentality. I think, you know, I have this line I use a lot, which I say to crowds of technology people. It's like, imagine your product is a Black Mirror episode and then don't make it.

Like, if you can think of a really bad outcome. But they don't, it does get into their jam. They like their kombucha, you know, soft shirt, soft shoes jam. And so they don't, they live, they do live in this bubble of, I hate to use that term because it's so easy, it's an easily abusing, but they, a lot of like, for example, Twitter,

I don't want to just pick on Facebook, Twitter, I do believe that Twitter, the reason why they took so long to get to bullying is because the people who created it never felt unsafe a day in their lives, in their lives. They didn't have lack of safety it was not designed by people who understood lack of safety it wasn't designed by a whole lot of gay people it wasn't designed by a whole lot of people of color it wasn't designed by women all of whom are subject to that on a daily basis and i don't want to put, people aren't all victims and put upon or anything like that. But the FaceTime stuff and the instant video stuff, I was immediately like, murder, suicide, bullying, animal abuse, anything that people can, people are awful when they get, you know.

Right. And even if it's just 1% of it, 1% of zillions is a lot. Casey Newton wrote a great piece about content moderators on Facebook who are living in, they contract this stuff out and don't pay these people. I read it about how- It's crazy.

How messed up they are for the whole thing. Why are they contractors to Facebook? Why don't they work for Facebook? Almost like they don't want the blood on their hands. Well, that's because it's toxic waste and they don't want to clean it up. So they hand it off to the poor people. Right.

Like that to me is exactly what's going on here. And if they were sitting in Facebook headquarters and everyone knew what they were doing, do you think Facebook would think harder about allowing or YouTube or any of them? They don't have to think about the dirty and the dirty is part of it. And if they don't want to clean up the dirty, they can't have the other part. And then they say, oh, they're doing this. They're doing dance videos. They're doing salsa. Sure.

That's really great. You know, TikTok, the dog that eats the noodle faster than his owner. Yeah. Funny. So adorable. But they need to- Pretend to watch one where the kid eats the dog. Right.

Exactly. You can't do anything about that video. Yeah. But it's just like, just take responsibility for the entire product. Yeah, but I'm amazed that they're so well-trained in explaining why they don't take responsibility. Like I had Jack Dorsey on that couch and just talking to him over and over again,

coming at it in different ways, trying to do it nicely, but just like, you're the one in charge of Twitter. Like you have all this abuse and your strategy with abuse on Twitter is to be like, well, put it on the user. They can just block them.

They don't have to look at the replies. It's like, it's not acceptable. Everyone has told you for years, that's not acceptable. So why don't you fix this? Well, you know, we want to fix this. It's like, you know, we're hoping in a couple months we can fix this.

It's like, you're in charge. Right. No, they love to do that. If the house is on fire, it'd be like, well, you know, house is on fire. It'd be great if we could put the fire out. To me, I'm always like, where's the money? Who got the money? They did.

Why aren't they doing it? Like, I didn't get the billions that they all have. Yeah. So it's their job. I think that's what's interesting. I did a really interesting interview. But they're good at making it seem like they're helpless. no you're not helpless you're in charge of the company yeah no mark's like you know we when he says we should all do it together i'm literally like

then give up your complete control of the company give your stock up give up give up you can keep your stock give up your control he controls the entire company like if you think that's the case it's we then let's be able to fire you if we need to but you can't and so what's really interesting when i did that interview with him last year i think people are struck by the other part where he's talking about holocaust deniers not meaning to lie which let's i don't even want to unpack that right but the part i was more disturbed by is when i was trying to get him to take responsibility like what do you feel about the people of myanmar ind, who were killed because some engineer

at Facebook decided to make this viral? And a lot of the answers, and again, he's a lovely guy. He goes, what do we want to do is work on solutions. He kept going, we want to work on solutions. It's all coach speech. No, no, this is what he thinks. It's not speech. We want to work on solutions, Kerry, because I'm an engineer

and I like about solutions. I say, I understand that, but you caused the problem, so I want to understand why you caused the problem. And he's like, solutions are Carrie, because I'm an engineer and I like about solutions. I say, I understand that, but you caused the problem. So I want to understand why you caused the problem. And he's like, solutions are my game because I'm an engineer. I think like an engineer. I'm like, well, engineer, you made the thing that broke and killed a lot of people. So let's talk about how that happened.

Yeah. And like, but they keep going, but what about solutions and the future? Let's not worry about the past. I'm like, no, let's worry about the past so we don't do it again. And you can't, like, it's so literally Silicon Valley is so not has not been, and it doesn't mean they won't be, has not been reflective in any way that they imagine they can't even look in mirrors. I use

that joke all the time. People laugh like they're vampires. Like you can't, they cannot see themselves in mirrors because they can't self-reflect. And a couple of them are like, you know, Brian Chesky of Airbnb. I've had some great discussions about the impact of his business on societies. You know, you can have a really smart discussion with Mark Benioff at Salesforce about that. We had a huge argument about ICE and the work they're doing for the Customs and Border Patrol. He acknowledges it as a problem. Tim Cook at Apple, same thing thing, of course it's in their benefit to talk about privacy because they don't have an advertising business but there's plenty of people who are willing to

talk about it, you know, Satya Nadella of Microsoft, the problem is all those people didn't cause most of the problems but they're sort of sucked into it Do you have a different relationship with those people because you were covering them when they were nobody yes for sure are you the only one it's right are you the only one john markoff who's since retired but he covered the computer world you know he could he i got to the internet he was he covered internet stuff because you knew

bezos when he had like what five employees and half of a head of hair yeah he had a lot of hair oh he had a lot of hair he wore these khaki pants with a lot of, you know, when they had folds in the front. A lot of that. A lot of blue shirts and stuff like that. Yeah, he had a lot of hair. Are there common qualities with these guys? Especially the younger guys before they make it? Is there some sort of similar trait that they have?

I really was impressed by the Google founders when I met them because they thought so orthogonally. And there had been plenty of search engines at the time. People forget, like everyone's like, oh, another search engine when they were funded by Kleiner Perkins and who was the other one? Sequoia funded them. And they urged me to go visit them. And I did visit them when they were in the garage, Susan Wojcicki's garage, actually. And so I was struck by the conversation. I thought they were very inventive and interesting. So you saw, and Bezos was the same way, inventive. He had new ways of thinking about things. Are they nerds? Some of them. Was anybody one of the coolest people in their high school or college? Or are they all people who were just innovating in some dark office and

trying to figure shit out? Because Zuckerberg was a nerd. He was indeed a nerd. He was hard to get through to. Gates was that way too. We met Owen Van Otta, who was president of Facebook at the time. They went through a lot of ups and downs in the early days. And Owen said, you need to come and meet him. And I said something like, oh, I heard he's an asshole.

And he's like, no, he's okay. You and meet him. And I said something like, oh, I heard he's an asshole. And he's like, no, he's okay. You should meet him. And so I get there and he walks into the room and he's like, I hear you think I'm an asshole. I'm like, oh, great. Nice, meet cute, right? And then we ended up going walking around Palo Alto. He likes to walk around and stuff like that.

And I've always thought he was thoughtful. Same thing with, I like Evan Spiegel probably is one of the more, I like talking to him. I always find something new from Snapchat. You know, Reed Hastings from Netflix was, oh, I invited him, the creator of YouTube, Chad Hurley, and the guy who created Hulu, Jason Kylar, to Sundance. And they put us in a basement. Reed Hastings, who started Netflix. And that was when Netflix was still sending out CDs. Yeah, mailing the DVDs.

DVDs. And so we were down in a basement at Sundance talking about the future of media, how it's going to be streamed and this and that. And literally everyone was like, yeah, whatever. Like I had the three founders, like really, it was so early. It must've been, oh, 2000, whatever. It was super early. And I used been, oh, whatever. It was super early. Jesus. And I used to do this. But I remember being in a basement. And they had all the celebrities upstairs.

And they had this sort of internet-y zone. And I wish I had a video of that panel. Because they were like, this is the way it's going to be. And most of the movie. And I was like, someday you're going to be able to put your movie out. And it doesn't have to be in a theater. And you could stream it. And there's going to be all this stuff. And at the time, they thought Netflix was just a DVD service.

But Reed had a concept of it that was much bigger of where it was. That was just a way station to what was happening and where he was going. And I thought, he's really something special. You know what rich guys love? What? Panels. Panels, they do. Well, he wasn't rich.

He wasn't rich at the time. They love getting on those panels and pontificating about where things are going. No, I'm telling you, he was not. You've been on probably, you moderated probably more of those panels than everyone else combined. But he wasn't rich at the time.

I'm just saying he, that was a fledgling company. No, no, I'm just saying, it made me think of that though. Yes, they do like panels. If you could, we could start a panel right now. We could just send out

on Instagram and be like, hey, Bill and Kara are gonna, we just want to talk about where things are going. We need three rich people. Yeah, that's true. You're like, oh, I'll be there at 4.30? VCs like to be on panels. Oh, God. You know, it's interesting because-

And Maverick Carter. Maverick Carter, he gets on a lot of panels. He does. That's your area. He's available right now. Is he? He's probably coming in. Oh, my God, it's Maverick Carter.

I'm staying away from that one i don't know what war with you um he um you know they are they do like to get on them some of them don't something you know but some of them are very smart people like people are always wondering because you know for example with mark he he sweat a lot during one of our interviews it was very famous sweating incident where he yeah he sort of melted down essentially which one was that? What year? At least 2006.

He sweat so much on the screen. In front of an audience? In front of all things to the audience. I don't remember this. Oh, it's a big deal. Oh, really? Is it on YouTube? It was a big moment in Mark Zuckerberg history.

That was me and Mark Mossberg. And he literally looked like he was going to faint. And he sweat. Remember Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible? Yeah. It was that level of sweat. Was it the Albert Brooks broadcast news? Yes, that one.

It was that level of sweat. But he then came back and did an interview with me recently and again he probably regrets it now that he did it because he kind of messed up quite a bit but i always feel like people always like why do people talk to you because some of the interviews don't go well for some of the people i interview um you know i think of steve jobs a lot in that regard is he never had a particularly easy interview from us, but he was a smart guy who wanted debate. And so some of them are really great. You get good, really interesting discussions out of them. Like Susan Wojcicki came to Code this year, and I can't say she did well because she doesn't have a very good story, but she showed up to discuss it. And, you know, it was, it was a tough interview. Peter Kafka did that interview and it was a tough interview. So some people, you get a lot out of other people. They just say nothing. They pontificate on bullshit. Yes. Yeah. It's, I mean, I'm sure you know this, but it's something I really started interviewing people. I had my podcast in 07. You're a great

interviewer. Yeah. I definitely better than I was. And you, you learn pretty quickly how much work you are going to have to do in the interview. It's like, Oh, I'm going to have to carry this one. All right. You're this person's giving me nothing and how you can try to pull out anything you can get out.

You know, some people they're ready right away. Other people might be 10 minutes. Other people might be a half hour. And then if it's somebody that's just, it's not going to be there. You just wrap it up sooner. You kind of have to identify what motivates them.

You know, when I was interviewing, whenever I interviewed someone, I used to, I have this thing where when I started off in reporting, I was like, what are people lying to me about? That was always my criteria. And then I realized quickly is what are people lying to themselves about? And what do they need to get through about themselves? Do they need to show they're the smartest person in the room? Do they need to show they're the nicest guy? Do they need, what motivates them to answer?

And like some people I've interviewed, if you make them angry, they give great answers. There's a couple of people, I'm not gonna say exactly who they are, but you get that. You challenge them. You challenge them really quickly. Like sometimes I'll say something really awful. Like they'll say something and I'm like, I don't believe a word you're saying. Like I actually will. You challenge them. You challenge them really quickly. Like sometimes I'll say something really awful.

Like they'll say something and I'm like, I don't believe a word you're saying. Like I actually will say that to them. I don't know if you do that. But, and they're like, what? And I go, I think you're lying. I just, that's just me. Maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't believe it. Another time someone-

I wouldn't do that. I would just circle around. No, no, I just say, I just, I don't even want to bother. And then another thing I often do is say, that was a lot of words, none of all strung together, none of which makes sense. Like that's just, that's a talking point. Can you stop doing that? And one of the great things about these long interviews is people can't avoid after a while,

they have to give up the talking points. Well, especially I don't use notes and you're going to wear somebody down. Yes, exactly. If they're just talking at some point, even like somebody, like when Jack Dorsey and we both did podcasts with him. He's a tough one.

But he was clearly doing the tour, right? Yeah. And he had his people. Did he do this? With the hands? Well, no, but he had his talking points, right? And the things he wanted to hit. But he believes those.

Let me just say. He does. But he was clearly had practice. All right. Well, if they ask this then this will I'm gonna go here and

you can get those you can wear those people down eventually he's tough he's a tough one he's tough he's tough I kind of liked him though

I felt like by the end of it he's a nice guy it bothered me that he wouldn't take accountability but I also really appreciated that he spent so much time and really like thought about

the questions and no he's super thoughtful he's super thoughtful we did one he would only much time and really like thought about the questions and no he's super thoughtful he's super we did one he would only because he and i go round after round and i think he wants to be peaceful so he doesn't he doesn't like annoying kara swisher asking him questions anymore again the terminator too right exactly it's like so he what he did what he did is he said okay i'll do an interview with you on twitter which was like a goat rodeo i mean really it was like you know wrangling cats whatever metaphor you want to use but so we were going back and forth and all it did was show how bad the twitter conversation was yeah i'd ask him a

question and he'd answer and he couldn't run the thread and then people were weighing in and then it was it was a disaster but i we we strung together the answers finally that it made cogent. So it was coherent, yeah. And it was astonishing how much it was clear that Twitter is not a place for conversation, which I think maybe was his point. But, you know. But I mean, ironically, it could be

if they thought about some stuff differently. And there was some stuff that was going on in the mid-late 2000s with chats. And I remember doing stuff that was going on in the late, mid, late 2000s with chats. And I remember doing a bunch of them from ESPN and it seemed like technology was almost there to come up with the ability. Instagram's trying to do now you can do your Instagram story and just get questions from people and answer them. Yes, they are. Nobody's ever really figured out. So is Periscope. So is Kayvon Beckport. He's a very sharp guy from Twitter. Nobody's ever figured out the perfect.

Hi, I'm Bill Simmons. For the next 15 minutes, I'll be answering questions. And then you can easily get them screened and go. No, Reddit, AMA, actually. I love Reddit. But that's typing. I'm talking about. It is typing. Oh, talking.

Yeah, you're right. It's hard. And the problem is- Reddit AMA is probably the closest. And then they put the worst ones down and the best ones up and all that stuff. I think that's the smartest one. And I actually just did a great interview with Steve Huffman, who's the CEO and co-founder with Alexis Ohanian of Reddit. And we did a great interview just recently, a live interview.

And one of the things I really appreciate about him, now Reddit was the sort of ground zero of shitty site, shitty crap and stuff like that. And they've done a ton of work. And they're a small company of trying to clean it up and take responsibility for it and i was really heartened to do an interview with him because before they were like free speechers except they don't even know what free you don't even understand the first well that's a fun policy right where they're like whatever look man it's a free space you say what it isn't but it isn't like there's definitely not a space i have the first amendment i said congress shall make no law not twitter Twitter can make any law

at once. I was like, would you like to know what the second amendment actually says? Or would you like to just make it up as you go along? And I think one of the things that was appreciative of him is that they're thinking about it and what is toxic and what is wrong. They just, um, they just quarantine the Donald, which is the Donald, all things Donald Trump site. Cause it, cause the moderators, what they do is they rely on the moderators to make the rules. And his idea is correct, is that all these communities will make their rules right, and our job is to police the moderators. If moderators aren't doing their job, then we start to make action. It totally scales in that way, if you have these communities that care about

conversation. So in the Donald, the moderators are not, they're letting violent stuff continue, and so they quarantine them. And at the end, I said, are not they're letting violent stuff continue and so they quarantine them and at the end i said are they going to get off quarantine like are they going to get back to like non quarantine moves you down and puts you and people will find trump stuff if you want to go to trump stuff but but he was like you know what if if the the recent um send her back physical rally is any indication? No. They're going to be banned. Like, that was really something.

So he was, like, setting rules. Like, you don't get to say send her back. You don't get to do this. Go somewhere else if you want to do this. Go to whatever gab or whatever site you want to do, but not here. And so that, to me, I was really heartened for a smaller company to be able to say that. And then to have Facebook saying,

we don't know how to, you know, we can't do it with our millions of zillions of dollars and hundreds of engineers. I really hate Facebook. Do you? I really do. I think they're just full of shit.

And you're going to use their currency? Libra, I keep saying. I would get rid of it if they didn't own Instagram. I feel like it'd be- Well, maybe they won't. Maybe it will be spun off. I wish they would sell it off so I can get rid of it. they didn't own Instagram. I feel like it'd be- Well, maybe they won't. Maybe it will be spun off. I wish they would sell it off so I can get rid of it.

I just think some of the shit they did, especially during the election and just pretending they didn't know what was going on for months and then kind of like realizing at some point they had to acknowledge that they knew what was going on, but then just plain dumb. Well, some people think their business model is just,

it will always go to that. It's so advertising based that it has to do the things it does. And therefore the whole business model is screwed. Well, they're being trapped to an algorithm. YouTube's the same way, right? And they're spending all this time trying to fix that. But YouTube, you look, I mean, Charlie Walsh has written all those pieces about the pedophilia stuff.

Yeah. And you hit this video and then all of a sudden they start suggesting eight-year-old girls in ballet outfits. It goes to neo-Nazis really quickly. Yeah, not great. It's not great. And what's really interesting is that it is hard to fight it. But one of the things I think about spin-offs and everyone's like, oh, you don't want to break them up, government. I'm like, breakups work, by the way, that worked with AT&T. It works in other things. But wouldn't

you think if you, or you would just create three big Googles. It's like, well, wouldn't you think one of them would start to think, I'm going to have a totally safe search service, which is only contextual advertising to differentiate myself in the market. Or wouldn't you say YouTube would suddenly go, you know what? We're going to double down on safety. Safety, which is really what it's all about. You're talking about safety of people. And if you have more competition, you'll think of things to do

to differentiate yourself from the market, right? If you're a big company, you're just not going to do it. You don't need to. Well, so how do we explain Disney? Disney. Because now Disney with content. Well, that's an interesting question.

Disney's the most powerful content company probably of all time now. He's really hitting on all cylinders. And everybody who talks about where's content going and the big battles that are coming, it's basically positioned as Disney versus everybody. It's not Netflix versus everybody. It's Disney versus everybody. Because when they launch Disney+, it's going to be a beast. We'll see.

They've been a failure in every single interactive effort they've made since the beginning. I've covered all of them. More than that, how about the ESPN phone? What, the ESPN? Oh, did they have a phone?

Remember the ESPN phone? No, I don't even remember it. I've forgotten now. No, they've had a lot of swings and misses, but from a content standpoint, their library is crazy. Disney, Internet Store, remember they bought InfoSeek?

They're great on content. They've been not so great on platforms. So I'm just going to wait and see because every one of them has been an adjunct failure. Well, the one thing they've done that's unassailable is they've assembled a library of IP. IP, content. They're great at movie making. They're great at TV shows. They have the whole Simpsons library now.

Right. But they don't have a platform. All the stuff they got from Fox. Yeah, but they're going to have a platform. Well, we'll see. I'm saying they've just never been successful at it. I just don't assume that someone's going to be good at one thing. I mean, I'm not good at, I don't know, sport or whatever,

knowing about sports, and I'm good at tech. I just don't think it necessarily translates that they're going to be good at this. Everything they've done in the internet space has been pretty C. I would say a C. Possibly an F. I mean, ESPN.com was redesigned 700 times. Everything. Every single thing they've done has been, like, it goes way back. See, I've been there for all, Michael Eisner had all this.

Oh, yeah. They bought Infoseek. They did. What was the place from Seattle? Disney. D-I-S. Yes, that place. That was what ESPN.com turned into.

Yeah. What's this? Oh, God. I covered that guy. Yeah. It was that guy. That was what ESPN.com turned into. Yeah, what's this? Oh, God, I covered that guy. Yeah. It was that guy. He had a weird name. Anyway, and then they had a big,

they had one of their engineers was arrested for picking up a young girl in Santa Monica up here. Oh, that was a story. That was one of the 4,000 stories I wrote for the Wall Street Journal. But they had a disastrous attempt to be a search service. They had Disney information services. They had Disney DGI, I think.

Dig? Dig. Disney Internet Group. There's so many efforts. They did CDs for a while. They haven't had a successful ability to create a digital platform. So that would be the case for Netflix where Netflix has accumulated all this intelligence

on people that use them. They have unbelievable infrastructure digitally and they're probably like, great, please think Disney's going to beat us. Same with Amazon. Amazon hasn't done badly in the content space. It's great on the distribution. They just had bad actual shows and movies

compared to what they could be. For the first efforts, not so bad. I'm just great. They just had bad, bad actual shows and movies compared to what they could be. For the first efforts, not so bad. I'm just saying, you just can't, you can't look to any, look, Rupert Murdoch had something and I'm totally blanking because it was the nineties. Anthea Disney was involved. There was a whole, what was it called? Do you remember what it called? There was, there was a Rupert Murdoch thing that was going to change the, they were going to be AOL and then that failed. Like every media company, no media company has been particularly good at digital. Well, if everybody thinks Disney and Netflix and Amazon

are all going to carve up content. Google is in there now. And so is Apple. So. I'm dubious of Apple. Okay. Me too. But, but if everybody thinks it's going to be these three

or four or five people controlling all of the content we watch and consume and listen to, how is that not a monopoly? Well, how is that different than before? Didn't we have five or six companies? Did we, though? I mean, we had. Well, no, you've got Comcast in there with NBC. You've got AT&T. AT&T's like, where the hell are we?

Why haven't we been mentioned yet? This is bullshit. Stanky. We have HBO Max coming. Right, exactly. Well, again, look, HBO is a wonderful content service, but you cannot say

that their digital efforts have been stellar. My concern with the AT&T thing is ultimately they're a phone company and they care about data and intelligence for people that use their phones. Of course.

And content helps them get more people using their phones, but do they actually care about content? I laugh when I say, I called Richard Plupper, I'm like, and liking working for the phone company, Richard. And he was like, you know, fuck you, essentially. But, you know, another incredibly creative content executive. What an amazing guy.

And I met him when he was a PR guy for HBO. He was Jeff's- He was like the greatest PR guy ever. He was, he was great. He was, I've worked for him for a couple of years. He was-'s- He was like the greatest PR guy ever. He was. He was great. He was, I've worked for him for a couple of years. He was-

A great, I love him. Really an awesome leader. But, you know, great at content, great at content. And so,

why would he want to, like, how do you retain talent in that case? And I'm sure he'd be very cordial about it, but, you know,

I saw him right before he left and I said, how many weeks are you quitting it? Like, there's just no way creative people

wanted to be part. And we'll see what they do. Maybe they'll do a great job. I believe in Casey boys, I think is actually really good. Who is that? He's, he's the guy who basically replaced Richard. Okay, great. That's great.

I'm just saying how, how do creative people marry with, you know, the GE NBC thing didn't work that well. Some of the, you know, the Comcast NBC thing is working thing is working, and they have an investment in Vox, but that's worked pretty well. You don't see a lot of them. They let the NBC people run it for better or worse, and they don't seem to be trying to do this intermarriage of things as much. In AT&T, you're hearing a lot more of that Synergy stuff

that you heard from Verizon when they bought AOL. I was like, no. They're like, we they bought AOL. And I was like, no. Like, we're going to do this. I'm like, OK. So what would be, how will we remember the 2020s? Oh, I don't know. You know, I'm interested. Here's what I'm interested in.

A couple of things. I think we're focused a lot on social media and content because you and I are interested in that, obviously. But I think some of this, I'm thinking about more is a couple of things. Very few, the next trillionaire is going to be the person who solves climate change and food problems. Like food, like not just, Beyond Meat is like a, the stock is at a crazy point at this point because it's, they just don't make enough money for the valuation they have.

It's just, it's out of whack. But it points to the idea of what, who's going to be the innovator in food tech, like agri-tech, ag-tech, and things like that. I think there's some really interesting stuff coming out in that area. So like for lunch, I could just have this pre-made pack. I don't know. I eat it in three bites and then I'm satiated for six hours. I'm not that creative. I don't know. Then we can send it to Africa and everybody can eat it in Africa.

Whatever. But that's a really interesting area. The second thing is climate change. Like who's going to, you know, there's some, both Bill Gates- Trump said there's no climate change. Oh, that's right. Well, let's just, we'll move on.

I'm so glad we haven't discussed Trump at all in this moment. No, but that's what he said. Okay, whatever. Okay, all right. In any case, he also said Jeffrey Epstein wasn't a good friend of his,

but okay, fine, whatever. As Providence, as the shoreline creeps closer, closes the, or Provincetown, I mean. Everybody knows. Provincetown's going to be gone. That's why I'm going this year. Provincetown's going to be gone.

They're all going to be gone. Like I sit here somehow, like this will be gone. This will be gone. How about Nantucket? All those places on the East Coast. I was on Nantucket and I thought, oh my God, when I saw it from the air, I'm like totally gone. Those beautiful houses full of like gorgeous houses there.

But climate change isn't happening. Totally. Yeah, it's fine. Anyway, so. We're fine. But climate change isn't happening. Totally. Yeah, it's fine. Anyway, so- We're fine. But climate change technology, I think, would be, like you see investments from Bill Gates is a little bit sort of dabbling around it.

Elon Musk has some, but not that many tech people are fully engaged on that topic. I think that's a really interesting way to make money someday, like really be that person. And then this aging thing, even though I make fun of a lot of the food,

the weird intermittent fasting and stuff like that they're all doing, the idea of, I met with a lot of venture capitalists recently talking about this idea of health, having a, when we get old, we have to be sick. That is not necessarily the case. Like, can you live to a certain age and have a, it's called healthspan rather than than lifespan, health span. Like 120. Yes. Yeah. It's really interesting. And so it's not, everyone's like, oh, that's crazy. And it's narcissistic. And it is for a lot of these tech people who are investing in this, it's totally narcissistic. They want to like perfect their bodies, perfect their things. And, and part of me, you know, I, you know, I love the WeCroak app, you know, where you hear five quotes about death every day. You know, sometimes when these guys— That sounds terrible.

It's great. I did a whole podcast. It's wonderful. Oh, no. It makes you happier when you realize death is coming. It does? Oh, yeah. Totally.

Jesus. You'll see. I'll see. It's called WeCroak. It's great. It's really great. It gives you five quotes about death. And if you think about—like, it's Buddhist.

I'm not a Buddhist. But it's like, if you think about, like Steve Jobs talked about that in one of his speeches at Stanford, the famous speech that death was the thing that made him most creative because he knew he was going to die and therefore he was creative.

Anyway, I'm not going to go into my death cult, Kara Swisher death cult thing, but what's really interesting is what is, how can you live a healthy life? Why do we have to go hospitalized? Like everyone ends up

in the frigging hospital like rotting away. Like why can't we live a healthy life closer to the end? And there are ways to start to figure that out. And I think that is interesting away from sort of this narcissistic, I'm going to do these weird things that are coming out of Silicon Valley right now, the intermittent fasting, the Soylent stuff. I'm fine with them being narcissistic because I'm hoping it'll lead to some really interesting things around health investments because they're terrified of dying, all these people.

And now they're not young anymore. So it's all about narcissism. And brain and hack, it's body hacking, like essentially hacking your brain, hacking your body. And instead of just dismissing it, as my first instinct is to do, is to think, why put it out? Same thing with space travel. At first, I'm like, oh, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are just competing to be, you know, it's just whatever they're doing there. But at the same time- It's a swing and dick race.

Exactly. And so they, so I'm, but there is some really fascinating things to think about space travel. Like, why not? You don't want to be that person who says that's ridiculous because it's the same thing with aging. If you take away from all the bullshit around it, it's actually, to me, I'm most interested in that concept of how you make a healthier world. And it's completely within possibility to use tech to do so. Let's take a break to talk about Google Fi. Doesn't it feel like most phone plans just weren't made with us in mind? Between bad coverage, paying too much for data you don't ever actually use,

crazy roaming charges, come on. Google Fi is a phone plan by Google made with features that people like you and I actually want. Features like free international roaming. So you never have to worry about calling up your provider to let them know you'll be traveling. I hate that.

Three networks in one. You can stay connected wherever you want. From your home to your office, everywhere in between. GoogleFi works on your favorite smartphone so you don't have to switch phones

just to switch plans. Another thing I hate. In fact, it's as easy as just downloading the app. You only have to pay for the data you use. Plus with bill protection, if you ever do use a

lot of data, your bill is capped at a reasonable amount. Learn more at fi.google.com. That is fi.google.com. Switch to Google-fy, a phone plan by Google. Back to the podcast. Can you walk me through the alternate universe where Massachusetts in the late nineties becomes what Silicon Valley became? Well, not that would not have happened. Come on. No. Outside chance, 10 to one odds? No, never. Nothing? No, it's fascinating. There's geography to innovation and there's a way innovation dies. And there's signs, the signs of an innovative society is tolerance, openness, immigration.

Every society that's been innovative over the course of history all have the same hallmarks of how they got that. Rome, Egypt, Alexandria, all kinds of places. They all have the same elements. Again, it's immigration, diversity, tolerance, high tolerance of risk and failure. This doesn't sound like Massachusetts. It doesn't sound like Massachusetts ever. Yeah, but it's probably like Massachusetts. Not the Massachusetts I fear to live.

But the same thing is happening. And then the ways these innovative societies fail are all the same. You know, bubble thinking, too much wealth, intolerance, lack of ability to see, you know, see anything outside your circle, and too much self-referential, and lack of diversity is always the same thing, lack of diverse thinking, lack of diversity of people and thought. And so you think about this country that way, and you're like, where is that happening? Of course, we're like locked into this ridiculous death grip on immigration. Arguing that whether immigration is good is astonishing. It's astonishing.

Like, of course it is. Every major internet person as an immigrant, like a lot of them, a lot of the top people in tech, I forget, it's a number that's so high. You know, Satya Nadella from India, Sergey Brin from Russia. It's a former Soviet Union so high you know satchin adela from india sergey brin from russia it's a former soviet union uh elon musk from south africa you can just you can and then getting down to the lower levels it's all immigrants and and you can talk about high skilled immigrants a lot of those people came from poor backgrounds and you know you don't you don't know where the great innovator is going to come from whether it's a kid coming across the rio grande it could be little girl coming across the rio Grande has the figured out climate change.

FYI, look at the NBA. Right, exactly. The NBA has more foreign stars than ever before. It's going to keep going up and up and up. But this is what this country's arguing about right now. And meanwhile, we're not investing in science. We're not investing in tech. We're not investing in, you know, and meanwhile, China, which I'm sorry, we don't want them

to run the next internet age. I'm sorry, we don't want them to run the next internet age. I'm very certain of that. You know, it's a homogeneous society, which is a surveillance state with which government control, they are killing it, going across the globe, giving equipment, internet help, digital help, besides buying all the mining rights to everything, they're doing that. They're smart like that. And so here we are literally arguing over the most inane stuff that is going to not let us innovate and create new small companies and create new small jobs. Well, why would we innovate when we could go backwards 23 years and read something somebody wrote and then argue about whether they should pay for it now?

Well, it's all the hallmarks of the society. To me, we could bring it back. We can completely for it now. Well, it's all the hallmarks of the society. To me, we can bring it back. We can completely bring it back because one of the things that we have going for us is the ability to create competition. And so that's why some of this stuff that some of these senators are saying, you can call them communists if you want,

they're actually capitalists. Competition is always better for business. It's always better for the body politic. It's always better. Even if it's kind of messy competition. And the only way startups are going to happen is if we remove the barriers to creation. We bring them to higher education. All kinds of things go into it, but certainly not.

I mean, immigration to me is just such an obvious area. Why do people think you're mean? Why are you the queen of mean? I'm not the queen of mean. I don't feel like you're mean at all. You think you're very pleasant. I'm very pleasant. No, see, remember you said-

You played up a little online. No, I don't. I would say you're more feisty. Feisty. No, I think they said I'm- You should be the queen of feisty. Feared and loved. Did you notice that?

Feared and loved. And Marc Andreessen, who I- What is the fear, though? Because I can find out about their thing. I think I'm a really good reporter. I'm a good- So you can pull the rug out from under somebody who's up to no good well i think it's that just makes you a good reporter yes that's yes so i don't think it's fear is that i haven't done as much reporting i'm doing columns now much more so than anything else but

but you still have information yes i think i'm good at getting information i think that's like certain things i've done over the years like you, you know, when, when, um, when I was writing about Yahoo, I was like, this is a fucking mess. And I kept saying it and here's why. And I kept making an argument and then it was a fucking mess. And like everyone in Silicon Valley doesn't want to like admit that that was the case. So I think what I do is I go, I look at something, I'm like, no, not that like Uber, it's Travis Kalanick. I had a real problem with him as CEO. And I, you know, I was like, he's not going to, at one point I was interviewing someone and I think a lot of reporters try to be more circumspect in terms of what they're doing. And I was talking to someone at Uber and they were like, well, you're really hard on Travis.

I said, he's not going to be CEO. He can't be the public company CEO. And they're like, well, you know, and I was like, you must realize this is not happening. Like, I'm sorry. I don't know how it's going to end, but I know how it's going to, I, I know it's going to end. I just don't like, so you knew he was a mess. Oh yeah. You can just, you know, just by doing it. So I think what they fear is that I'm really good at getting information out of people and getting people to say things that are the truth. I think that's, I don't think that's fearing. I think it's just, I just say no to it. Like, no, that's I don't think that's fearing I think it's just I just say no to it like no that's not true

Kyle do you feel like she's being I feel like she's feisty I feel like I'm in a good spot and I'm just gonna stand right you and nephew Kyle are aligned cause when he moved out here yeah

I told him don't get a car yeah I'm right about that that's my favorite thing that you said this whole time I feel like I'm ahead of everything my next column is about how I just sold a car

I wrote this column literally I wrote this column this is a good example this is why people think of me I'm saying I'm not gonna have a car I'm never of everything. My next column is about how I just sold a car. I wrote this column. This is a good example. This is why people think of me. I'm saying, I'm not going to have a car. I'm never going to own a car. Nobody's going to own a car someday. Just so you know, you're going to have either autonomous cars eventually. Let's kill her. No, not at all.

I was just strategizing. Here's a strategy thing that I'm thinking of. This is where it's going to lead. Then this is going to happen. this is going to happen. And a lot of it came as I wanted to be a CIA analyst. And so I would have did scenario building, which is I love to do. I'm like, this could happen, and then this, and then this could happen, that kind of stuff. And so I thought, I'm not going to actually own a car. Why do we own any, practically so many things we own? Why do we have to own them? Why do we own clothes practically so many things we own why do we have to own them like why do we own clothes why don't we rent clothes like there's there's a lot of millennials now

using run the runway for not just gowns you're not a lady but um but but business why do i own a business suit i wear it once like what do i own why can't i rent it and then send it back people do it with taxes right why can't everything be like that so it's just so anyway so i started to think like this. I wrote this car piece and I said, I'm not going to own another car in my life. I didn't say I wasn't going to drive in a car. I didn't say I'm not going to use cars. I'm not going to use car to go or car sharing or whatever, or get a ride from someone.

I just said, I don't, I don't think most people own cars someday. And therefore you won't need insurance. And therefore you don't need parking garages. And therefore you don't need, you don't. And I was like, look at how this. Or your car getting broken into on the street. Right, this iterates through the economy. Car accident.

And then I was like, this is how it's going to go. What's going to happen to the mechanics? And it's just like thinking when cars came, well, these horses are not long for this world. Maybe we shouldn't be in the blacksmith business. Maybe we shouldn't be, you know, it's just thinking like that. So I wrote this piece and I got a zillion, like a lot of people were like, yeah, I agree with you. And then a lot of people from the Midwest were like, I want my car. You don't have to drive long distances. And I was like, don't think in the short term. That's today you're going to need a car. But

someday it's going to be like owning a horse for most people. Because most people, I'm sorry, people from the Midwest or in rural areas, most people are going to live in big mega cities. That is the demographic trend of all time. So most people will not own a car. I didn't say you couldn't have your pickup truck. Have your pickup truck. Enjoy it. Ride it around. Do whatever you want.

But for the vast majority of people, owning a car makes no sense. It makes no sense for young people now. They're costly. There's climate change issues. There's all kinds of stuff. All I'm saying is I'm just saying I'm not telling you how we're going to get there. I'm just saying that's where it's going to end up. I don't know how it's going to happen.

It's going to take 20 years or whatever, how long it takes. What I try to look at is the inevitable trend lines will lead here if you make certain determinations. Maybe we'll have flying cars like the Jetsons. Are you kidding? Larry Page is working on that. Do you know that? Can't rule that out. He's working on it at, what's the company called? People have been working on it for decades.

What's his company called? It's not Hoverboard. It's, oh, Kitty Hawk. Kitty Hawk. What could go wrong with that? No, they're doing Hoverboard. They're doing Hoverboard. They're like, you want to come see it?

I'm like, absolutely. The one thing I'm against is the self-driving cars because we live in this world where everything can get hacked at all times. I'm positive I don't want to be in a self-driving car. No one's really going to do that. What are you talking about? For what reason? Everything's been hacked.

Yes, but so what? Every day there's a new thing about hacking. It's going to happen once in a while and then they'll fix it. That's a small worry. They'll fix it after I'm wrapped around a telephone pole. Well, maybe you. My non-driver drove into a thing. So you love it when humans are on the street?

I'm sorry. No, especially in LA. Would you trust? LA is like a demolition derby. When something goes wrong in an autonomous vehicle, a million other cars learn that mistake. When something goes wrong with me in a car accident, I learn and maybe not. Like I might do it six times again. And so the idea that people are better than, if everybody uses autonomous cars, they'll be great. If there's humans and autonomous cars, that's going to be an ugly period. That all sounds awesome, but I'll never have one. Well, you'll be dead by the time it actually ends.

No, you just told me I'm going to live until I'm 120. Well, if you do that stuff. Are you going to do that? Do you do that stuff? Which one? Soylent and all that. No, but maybe someday. Do you do intermittent fasting?

No. I sit down with so many stupid internet people that talk to me about it. They start a dinner. We're at dinner. And I'm like, here, have a roll. Carbs are great. They make you feel better.

You just do it to torture them? I torture them all the time. You're just putting butter on it? Here's some butter. Here's some butter. I'm real fat. The fasting thing is interesting. It does, if you don't eat all day,

your brain weirdly does work better. I wouldn't advise it, but I've done it before. Yeah, but they put the butter in the coffee and I'm like, stop with that. Well, that's. I now put coconut milk or oat milk in my, I like oat milk. I don't like, I never liked milk milk, so it's fine.

I'm good with that. What do you have planned for the rest of the year in 2020 before we go? So much stuff. I'm doing a lot of interviews with presidential candidates. I did Pete Buttigieg. I did Andrew Yang. I've interviewed Kamala Harris

and Elizabeth Warren, but I'm going to do them again, do another interview with them again. So I'm going to try to get to all the presidential candidates that are left. I want to do Marianne Williamson because I think she's fantastic.

Kyle has a crush on Tulsi. Really? I'm sorry, I'm looking at this flyer thing. No, he doesn't know who that is. Tulsier thing. Kyle. He doesn't know who that is. No. Oh, no. I know who that is. I was watching.

She was on last night's debate. Oh, my God. Last night, it was like apocalypse with Tulsi. Oh, a little cutie. Really? All right. That's fine. Whatever.

In any case, she say crazy things as far as I'm concerned. I'm a warrior. But I'm going to try to get to a lot of them. Like, I put Andrew Yang on because I was like, he's not crazy. He's actually got some fascinating ideas around UBI. Hashtag Yang gang is tough. I know they're terrible. Gotta get rid of that.

Get rid of the hashtag. No, I agree. He can't help it. Come on. I like the fact that he likes the NBA, but hashtag Yang gang has to go. Even if he's going to. Don't name a gang after yourself. I did Amy Klobuchar.

I did. I'm trying to get to all of them. I'd like to do Bernie and Biden. That would be good. I'd be really interested to hear an hour long Biden podcast. I don't think he can do Biden. That would be good. I'd be really interested to hear an hour-long Biden podcast. I don't think he can do it. I don't think he can talk for two minutes.

You know when I contacted them and they're like, that's a real possibility. I'm like, oh, okay. He would definitely call you Carrie, Kara, and Kelly during the interview. I like Uncle Joe. The problem is he's Uncle Joe.

Uncle Joe. He is. He's Uncle Joe. You see him on that stage like Cory Booker a couple times last night. It was like, Uncle Joe,

take it down. Well, he was, at some point, he was kind of ready to grow. He dropped the gloves and then he realizes like, oh,

this guy's 78. Like, he barely can remember my name. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not, I like Kamala Harris quite a bit and I like Elizabeth Warren. I like aala Harris quite a bit. And I like Elizabeth Warren.

I like a lot of what she says. So I'm going to try to interview all the presidential candidates. I'm starting this unscripted tour. I like that Trump Jr. I think Trump Jr. might. Oh, no. Please. It's Ivanka all the way. Let's try Ivanka? Oh, you think that's the next one? Yeah, dumb and dumber aren't going to be running for

anything. Sorry. Like, seriously. And actually, that's an insult to dumb and dumber. And then I'm going to, we do the Pivot podcast with Scott Galloway, which is great. It's a business and news stuff. We're probably doing more live ones of those. Those are great. And what else? I'm having a baby in November.

Not me, as you can see, because I'm svelte like this. But my girlfriend is pregnant. And so I'm having a third child. I'm quite old. I have teenagers, 14 and 17, two boys. And we're having a girl. It's and so I'm having a third child I'm quite old I have teenagers 14 and 17 two boys and we're having a girl

it's great I'm excited for that so that's a big deal I guess that's a big deal and conferences right? yes I do conferences we do the we have the code

media conference did you create those? yes I did yes I did no I mean did you create that concept? yes I did or did somebody else do that before? no

well people did conferences but did you you created the idea of bringing these heavy hitters in and a setting? Yes, yes, yes. Because it's been ripped off since. It's totally by everybody. Vinaigre Summit's pretty good. They do the same.

There's a lot of bad ones, but there's a couple good ones. I think that's not, I bet that's not going to go. It was Graydon Carter really pushed that. So we'll see how the new editor continues to do that. 16 years. 16 years. 17, 17 years so what happened was walt mossberg and i walt mossberg was the greatest tech review of all time yeah um uh and

i created all things you were at the wall street journal and we saw a lot of conferences that were the the the sponsors paid to be on stage they were panels like you know the endless fucking panels and they were boring they were willfully boring. And so we said, we're going to, everyone's going to, you know, he had like 10 panels and then one headliner. We were like all headliners, only headliners. There's not one person that couldn't headline a conference. And so, and they were both mostly single interviews. You've been on stage at them. So it's just one single person. Well, the genius of the concept is it's good for the people to go on them. So you're saving all this money on talent fees and stuff because it's actually

just a smart move for them to do it. So you have all this talent, nobody would ever be able to assemble normally. No, exactly. And so we started off doing like Bill and Steve. They were the most important people. And Steve had never gone to stuff. That was a critically important thing in the early days. We had the last interview before he died. It was an amazing interview. And we also sort of perfected this idea of real talk, like not these interviews. And it was only Walt and I who did

the interviews. And so you didn't have 90 people doing some are good, some are bad. And then that was it. It was a very simple concept. You keep it short on the numbers too. Yes. The NBA has this tech summit that's And then that was it. That was a very simple concept of sort of essentially. You keep it short on the numbers too. Yes. Like the NBA has this tech summit that should be awesome on paper.

They should. But they have like eight people on stage and it's just people taking turns talking. No, we don't do panels. Yeah. We have maybe two. There needs to be interaction. Like we had Natasha Lyonne from Russian Doll and Cindy Holland, who is programming head at Netflix. That was great because we needed the programming tech person and her who is the creator. Shouldn't be more than four people.

Oh, shouldn't be more than two. Yeah. But I mean, four max. No, no. They're the worst. I hate long, big panels. Everybody just keeps adding people. No.

They do this in sports, by the way, with like studio shows where there'll be five people on a show. It's three minutes to talk. No, that's why i hate going on like you know you know those big cable like you know hollywood squares bullshit yeah it's like sometimes they call me they're like we're gonna have six people i'm like well good luck you know i can't say anything interesting or you know it's already so reductive and twitchy how can you like the other day i was watching one after the political thing and i'm like who's talking what did they say what like just have one person on who's smart to give me the information and then have another person on I studied your conference thing in like 2013 range because I

wanted to do I wanted ESPN to do one and we came up with this whole awesome idea for it and you guys were the model for it I was like look at this look at the people she people she gets. We could do the sports kind of pop culture version of this. And we have this way. It's ESPN. But who's your audience for that? We would just kill. But who's your audience for that? But if you get athletes, people are coming. You have to think hard. My argument was to put it in LA because I was like, there's really nothing in LA here. And if we did it and you had the collection of, you know, Hollywood people and athletes,

and you try to figure out the right weekend. Yeah. I just wonder who's your, again, the problem is for your sponsors. Do you really want just everyone to come? See, we think about everything when we did it.

People think, oh, it's just a conference. Like that's why everybody's failed at our concert. They often failed more. There's more failures of copies of us. Well, I had a specific angle on it,

but I don't, I don't want to say it because I still might do it. Okay, you might do it. Okay, you should. But here's what you should think about. Literally, walk- I did think about that, though. It can't just be, hey, here's some people.

Right. Like, there has to be a reason they're all there. Who's the audience and what is the sponsors going to get? You have to think about all your constituents, the audience. The content itself should be the most important part. Your stuff is, where's shit going and here are the people who are in charge

of that question and also it's journalism is at the beginning of it it was not there were no business deal executives in the room when we created it I can tell you that

and because they never do a good job and now Jim Bancroft just made that all business all he cares about is dollar signs I guess so I don't know

but he stays away he wanted a shout out that was my shout out for Jim Bancroft but I gotta say you know what? I've had a lot of job offers. I love working at Vox Media because he leaves me the fuck alone.

And that is the greatest talent he has. One of the only well-liked media executives. He's great. He's like, okay. He does that. Okay. All right. Like, you don't know how valuable that is.

Like, I don't want people to tell me how to do a conference. I know how to do it. Like, I had someone who was the one who hired me. Like, well, here's how I look at it. I'm like, I don't give a fuck how you think of it. You have no information. I've done 16 years, and I'm pretty sure I keep up on trends. I try to do that. What's important about conferences to me is that people desire analog experiences and networking, but in a good way where they have really great content combined. Walt and I picked out the cookies at every event. We eat all the food. We test, we look at all the hotel rooms.

We look at the place we're going. We spend an enormous amount of time on like, I don't know, the food trucks, which food trucks, what are they going to serve? So we spend much more time than you think on the swag. For years, i picked out every bag because we one thing we did was i picked out a beautiful bag because i know nothing rich people like nothing more than free shit so i needed you know they love free shit no they like one more thing than free shit what a free sleeveless vest i pioneered that you guys make like the best ones we did i have two of them jeff chow our president has one in his office right now it's the best cold. We did. I have two of them. Jeff Chow, our president, has one in his office right now. It's the best one. Those cold ones.

I literally try out 50. I did that for years by myself. I call it the rich guy uniform. Yes, exactly. But now we've moved to other jackets. I forget the one they really like. Anyway, we think about it. All year long,

I have a Topo bag now. I love the Topo bags. I don't know if you've seen them, but I will look. We were at Tumi way before. Not Tumi. What's the one in San Francisco? We just try everything out. You have those drink jug thingies?

Yetis. Yeah, you have those in there. We had yetis early, but then we move on to something else because it's really interesting. But one of the things, and we also get the sponsors to give things and we also get the people who come to give things. Like one year we the the people who come to give things like one year we had bobby kodik come and i said you can give away anything you want to the to the to the um the attendees as long as i approve it if it's a shitty thing yeah someone's like beer cozy i'm like fuck you no beer cozies for you like here's another battery charger like no battery chargers thank you very much no like stupid things, stupid things. Like, they have to be creative, including sponsors putting up creative stuff.

Like, Comcast did it, and they put up, they made everyone those little tiny statues of themselves. People loved it. Like, 3D, a 3D statue of themselves. People loved it. So everything we put in front of them has to be something that's really cool and interesting that they would want, not stupid books

that they don't want to take home. And one of the, like, Google came. Yeah, books google books are heavy too nobody wants to carry stuff kodak came once and they're like well we could want to give away like something and i was like no bring your vans that take photos and bring your most beautiful photographers and and they had a camera that took gorgeous portraits of people everybody wants a portrait one year we had everyone doing dot draw dot you know we like to that's the kind of thing you have to think about if you're doing everything. Like if you're doing, I'd be happy to help you with it. But it's like you have to be super creative because it's an experience and stuff.

And then what happens is people copy you, which they did with us. Like WSJD. Wow. Where'd they come up with that idea? Like, you know, and they do a shitty job of it. So it's fine. This is where the feistedness is really starting to come out come on i like this at one point you know i was someone did that to me in college when i was a reporter in college and they they stole my ideas like they kept stealing my

ideas it was really irritating and i finally went up to him i said you know what go ahead take it because i've got a thousand ideas and you don't have one fucking idea in your head so go ahead i got a million of them you know what i mean it's like elizabeth warren and her plans't have one fucking idea in your head. So go ahead. I got a million of them. You know what I mean? It's like Elizabeth Warren and her plans. Like, take one. She's got one. She's got whatever solution you need. Elizabeth Warren's got a 50-part series of plans. She doesn't.

She should just give them away. Here, here, here, you know, Pete Buttigieg. Take one of my plans. Give it to Biden. Biden's like, here you go, Biden. Here's how we're going to solve. Thank you, Kelly. Here's how we're going to solve climate change.

Here you go. I got a 900-page report on the situation with 26 action items and stuff so i just don't worry about it and what we try to do like with like podcasts is a good example this is this is a jim bankoff story i want to do podcasts i thought they were very interesting five years ago five or six years ago i think we're on our 400th episode. We did Megan Rapinoe for this time. Recode Decode, I think. I wanted to start it. And I was like, Jen, I want to start a podcast.

He's like, okay. Like that. That was exactly the approval of the whole thing. And I found an intern and we just started doing it. And one of the things a couple of people, once they start to get involved, like the advertising people, they're like, you know, people don't want an hour long podcast.

I'm like, fuck you. Yes, they do. Substance, substance, substance, right? That's absurd. I've had this podcast for 12 years. I know, you were way early.

But they've always been an hour plus. What are they talking about? I know, they were like, no, people like snackable. By the way, ESPN used to tell me that.

Hey man, podcast is doing great, but keep it at like 20 minutes. So I was like, the next one was like an hour 30 i was like fuck you guys i'm not listening to anybody so that was what was great about is you didn't like we just did it and we were way way ahead of it of it before other people were and now like everyone's doing them and now i'm like what else are we gonna what's the next thing we're gonna do and so i don't ever worry about people catching up with me or you probably don't because you're entrepreneurial this way too. You're like, I'll just do something else.

Like you were at ESPN and then you just left and you didn't, you're like, I'm doing it. I'm fine by myself. I'm good with them. I didn't like them. I moved along. And so you have to have that mentality now in media or anything you do that like, go ahead, steal my stuff. I got, I got, I got i got it like and you're and you don't want to keep doing the same stuff i'm guessing no we like to keep trying stuff and

trying to add to what you're doing and and then when it fails what do you care right move on yeah do the next thing right try to learn why something failed we both had things that failed i like to take from it you take the lessons and you go thing i was like someone's like oh someone's a media thing was like oh bill simmons i was like he in the media thing was like, oh, Bill Simmons. I was like, fine. I was like, I feel sorry for ESPN, actually. That's who I actually feel bad in that trade. Because you don't have, you don't need that.

I look at it now like it was 14 and a half years, which is a really long time. That's like longer than Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman's marriage. Or then which other one did he marry? Katie Holmes. Katie Holmes. Way longer than the Katie Holmes marriage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm glad you track his marriage. cruise and nicole kimball's marriage or then which other one did he marry katie holmes katie holmes way longer than that yeah yeah yeah you know god you track his marriage good relation well he's had a lot of marriages yeah he does me me he married me me oh that's right that was an early one way early one yeah yeah he'll have another one he still liked him even though i hate tom cruise i'm all in on top i am too i hate that i like the top gun 2 trailer i was i was

i am so would you like to go together? Because I am so, people are like, I can't believe you want to go see that. I'm like, hello? Are you kidding? We did an emergency,

we did this podcast called The Rewatchables where we basically dive into popular movies that you've seen a million times. That Top Gun trailer came out. We did an emergency Top Gun 1 Rewatchables

and it was, of course, like one of the most popular ones we've done. People love Top Gun. People like Tom Cruise. it was, of course, like one of the most popular ones we've done. People love Top Gun. People like Tom Cruise. I feel the need for speed. Oh my God.

It's such a good movie. This was fun. Now I have to come on yours. Okay. Yes, you are. You're coming on my podcast. It's going to be great. Do you want to talk about the sports thing?

Oh, totally. I'll talk about whatever. Okay. What else do you want to talk about? You have to teach me about sports because I'm the only lesbian in America who doesn't know anything about sports. Well, the Rapinoe thing was good for you. Yes, but we didn't talk about soccer because I wouldn't have made it. You didn to talk about? You have to teach me about sports because I'm the only lesbian in America who doesn't know anything about sports. Well, the Rapinoe thing was good for you.

Yes, but we didn't talk about soccer because I wouldn't have- You didn't talk about it at all? A little bit. Didn't we? A little bit. I just, I really am the, I literally- She did an awesome job of playing the gay card

in a way that wasn't hitting you over the head with it, but just kind of having fun with it. Yeah, that's right. I thought she was awesome. She was. You know what I love about her and I think it's important in life is she takes up her it. Yeah, that's right. I thought she was awesome. She was. You know what I love about her and I think it's important in life is she takes up her space.

Yeah. She's not apologetic about it and she delivers at the same time. And that's the key to success. I tweeted about her because my daughter plays soccer and just really became enamored with how she carried herself,

you know, in the games. And, you know, free kicks, corner kicks. She's just like, this is mine. I'm the one that does this. I'm the calmest person in this field. She would score, do the celebration with her arms out. And the way she carried herself was like the way my daughter wants to eventually get to as a soccer player,

where you're the most unflappable person in the field. So, of course, I tweeted this. And then it was like, it turned into a week-long debate about Rapinoe as a political tool. And fuck you, Simmons. And I was like, I'm not even tweeting about the Trumps thing. I'm just tweeting about her as a soccer player. Yeah, she owns her space. But it somehow blurred for her where now there's no going back from that, I don't feel like.

Meaning? She's just a chess piece now in this whole Trump, anti-Trump thing. No, you're wrong. I think she really- I'm just telling you what my experience was with the tweet. In that she's forever linked to that? Yeah, I think it's obscured just the valuable contribution she did just as a soccer player of the World Cup.

The Trump thing became a permanent part of that. I think it's a bummer. Do you think girls, like your daughter, I don't have a daughter. She doesn't care about the Trump stuff. Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. So she's just an inspiration no matter what, so it doesn't really matter. But that's the part that it's a bummer. Do you think girls like your daughter, I don't have a daughter. She doesn't care about the Trump stuff. Well, that's what I'm saying. So she's just an inspiration no matter what, so it doesn't really matter. But that's the part that got lost a little bit. Like, the coolest thing about

that team wasn't the fuck you Trump stuff. It was the, there are all these girls like my daughter watching them going, those are some badass women that I want to be like that someday. And that was it. That was the legacy of that team. to be like that someday. Right. And that was it. That was the legacy of that team.

I think it still is. I hope so. I think the Trump thing is just part of the brand, like part of the way she, it's not the brand even, it's the way she is. Whatever she's asked about, she gives the answer to.

She became polarizing, which is nuts because she's playing for our fucking country. No, I think she delivers the goods. Believe me, she's polarizing. Yeah, I don't know. In a certain specter of the country. I still think she delivers the goods. Believe me, she's polarizing. Yeah, I don't know. In a certain specter of the country.

I still think she's so good. People are like, she's just so good. She's just that good. I wish you were right. Here's why I think I'm right. Here's why I think I'm right. Because I had someone who said, you know, I think she's really arrogant. She's really arrogant.

Like, she's so arrogant about the way she puts her arms and this and that. And I said, do you think the same thing about LeBron James or Michael Jordan when they did that? Because I'll show you some pictures of them doing it. And they're like, I never did. And I said, why is it a problem for the top athlete in her profession not to do that? And they're like, I never thought of that. Like, if you start to, like, point it out to them, I think, or the Trump thing is, why should she go to the White House the way he behaves, right?

I don't think most people, if they listen to it, think that. Well, by the way, most teams have not gone to the White House. Right, exactly. But I think she has a big lasting impact. Such a likable guy. You would think they would come meet him and hang out with him. I have heard that he's super...

He can follow them around like he followed Hillary in the debate. Oh, God. You know, I talked to her about that. I interviewed her on stage. That's when she lost the election. You know what? I asked her, I said, why didn't you turn around and say, fuck you? She should have. She said she should have. She said she should have stopped and been like, what's going on

here? She said she had a calculation where people would think she was a bitch. I think essentially that's what she said. She said it in a nicer way, but she said, I thought about it and I thought I have so much baggage that people will think I mean, if I turn around. But he did that. It was a hundred percent intentional and he was trying to demonstrate the physical superiority because he's a foot taller than her. Yeah. She's a big guy, but she said, I should have, she goes, I should have turned around and said, you are creepy. Get the hell away from me. And she said that was a, she was a great regret

of hers not doing that. I agree with you. I agree with you. So we'll see. Did you watch the debates? I did. And? We got to get down to like four or five before we can really get going on some stuff. All right. Okay. Especially last night was exactly what you knew was going to happen where Biden and Harris are the front runners. So everybody else is just steering all their stuff to go after them. Yeah. It's like we just need to get to. Did you like Michael Bennett?

I love Michael Bennett. He's all right. He's great. He's great. He would have been a presidential contender in any other era. A lot of these guys don't get a ton of time or ladies. Jay Inslee's great. Yeah.

He actually, I didn't know anything about him. I actually liked the way he carried himself. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see. Who knows? Thank you for having me on

and you're coming on. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. All right, we're going to talk about your favorite tech things. Whatever you want to talk about. All right, cool. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you. On the wayside Never once said I don't have Fear Yes we can On the wayside On the wayside Never once said I don't have

Fear