The Bill Simmons Podcast - "Do You Believe … ?” NBA Edition With Doc Rivers

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Doc Rivers to discuss highlights from the NBA in-season tournament (3:46), before Bill asks "What's wrong?" with the Pistons, Warriors, Cavaliers, Hawks, Raptors, and Suns (25:37), then asks "Do you believe?" in the Bucks, Timberwolves, Pelicans, Thunder, and Clippers. This is then followed by story time and more (54:30). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Doc Rivers Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, 80 minutes of NBA talk with Doc Rivers, and it's really good next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey, and it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday nightockey deliver unreal plays, the biggest goals,

can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime. Prime Monday Night Hockey. It's on Monday. It's on Prime. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action.

FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs, the next drive. They have so much stuff.

It's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus look out for FanDuel squares this season. Here's what you have to do. Visit FanDuel.com slash BS to download America's number one sports book. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming.

Please visit RG-Help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. And listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where we put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did the Pelican Brief, another 1993 movie, one of the great Rewatchable years of all time.

I don't know what the number one Rewatchable year ever is, but it is definitely at least in the final four. That movie came out 30 years ago. Julia Roberts, Denzel Washington, and we broke all of it down. Speaking of Julia, Sean had her on his Big Picture podcast this week because she has that new Netflix movie out,

so you can check that out. And we also dropped all the tickets for the Rewatchables Cold Weather Tour the week of January 29th, we are going to Chicago and Washington and Philly and New York. We are doing The Fugitive in Chicago. We are doing Forrest Gump in D.C. We are doing, I think, Creed in Philly.

And then, last but not least, Rounders in New York City. When we first did Rounders, It was just me and fantasy, but we're going to do it again with Chris Ryan and with Van Lathan and four days and five nights. It seems like there's no tickets left. So if, if you tried to get tickets and you couldn't pull it off, I'm sorry,

we're going to have to come back. But can't wait for this. It'll be really fun. It's going to be grueling for live shows and five nights. I am not Taylor Swift. Maybe I'm going to have to do the Taylor Swift cardio routine to get ready. Do three, four hours in the morning and change how I eat. Can't wait to go out and do this in the theaters and see everybody. It's going to be super duper fun. And we'll have a new rewatchables next week as well. I'm going to tell you what next week's is.

We're doing National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. That's going to be on Monday. Because we promised. Because we did Vacation with Chevy Chase earlier in the year. And we said, when it gets to mid-December, we're doing National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.

And that's what we're doing. You know what else we're doing? We're going to talk NBA with Doc Rivers. I think this is our third time this season. I just have the most fun doing these with Doc. I remember when I was doing countdown that first year and it was me and Magic and Wilbon and Jalen and we would just have Magic Johnson trapped

in a room for eight hours. You know, we would have the pregame meeting. We'd do the pregame show and then we would go in this room where eight hours. You know, we would have the pregame meeting. We'd do the pregame show. And then we would go in this room where all these TVs were and we would watch all the games. And we just had Magic, who was like this incredible resource

and had, you know, played in all these big games and knew all these different people. And I always sat next to him and I would just fire questions at him. And it was like we were doing like a six hour podcast. You know, we'd pop back out, do halftime. We'd pop out and do the things between the two games. And it was just so much fun to talk to somebody like that, you know, twice a week, three times a week.

And I feel like it's the same with Doc Comes on the Pod, even though it's like these little 80-minute bursts. Somebody that's coached for the last 20 years and played for 13, 14 years, and it's just the best to talk to him about hoops. So that's what we're going to do. First, our friends from Avenue 2024 Tour, they announced you can go get tickets right now on their website.

Pro Gym! All right, our friend Doc Rivers is here. He was just in Vegas for the in-season tournament, sitting courtside, broadcasting games, watching stuff. What was the highlight? You know, I think the highlight was the tournament in a crazy way and how it was played out, the intensity, it was clear. You know, Bill, we didn't know what was going to happen with the tournament. I think we all kind of, I questioned it a little bit.

I was happy that it was happening. But the intensity that the four teams came with and played with, the pressure. There was real pressure on teams. The only team that was relaxed and you would think it would be so was the Lakers. You know, LeBron approached the whole thing, the whole tournament in the right way. I love like Kevin Durant's comment after they lost. He's like, you know, I don't know anything if I liked this or not, but I loved it once it's over and I'm pissed that I'm not in it.

Um, so I think that stood out. I thought LeBron stood out and his play throughout. Um, I thought his leadership was absolutely amazing throughout and the Lakers are pretty good. You know, um, that's what I think came out of this.

Yeah, I had a vote. And it was the MVP. Davis had such a great game, you know, and he had a couple other good games. And you're supposed to vote for the collection of games. But I still voted for LeBron because he cared so much about the tournament that I think his team kind of responded to that, right? They're like, Oh, this is one of the greatest sports ever.

And he gives a shit about this. So I give a shit because he gives a shit. And that's why I voted for him. That's why I asked at the end of the telecast. I said, are we voting for this game or are we voting for the whole tournament? And they said, well, we're voting for the whole tournament. I said, well, then MVP is easy. If you're voting for one game, it would have been AD.

Yeah, I was going to ask you, because I always do this circle thing where I think how many teams can actually win the NBA title, and that circle is either six, seven, or eight, and sometimes teams can move in or out. I never took the Lakers out of the circle, even when they were 11-9 after 20 games. It's like, what's going on? Are they going to have to make trades?

And I was like, they're fine. I'm not worried about them at all because of the size, because of the way LeBron responds in big games. They'll figure out the fringe pieces. But Reeves, who I thought was good in that tournament and just in general, the way that they're now figuring out, oh, this is our second ball handler. When,

so we don't have to rely on LeBron all the time. It was all stuff that were, you knew they're going to figure out the first 20 games. So I always had them in the inner circle. Were you ever worried about them? Those first 20? Not really. And I did a bunch of their games.

I think I've done more later games and I have to say, I'm happy about that since I live in LA. That's not a bad thing. I just thought they needed to figure out their rotations and I have to say I'm happy about that since I live in L.A. That's not a bad thing. I just thought they needed to figure out their rotations, and I didn't think they'd be able to do that until everybody's healthy. You know, Vanderbilt is back now, and he's going to make another difference for them. Right.

You know, they changed the starting lineup. They put Reeves on the bench, which was a very smart move by Darvin Hamm. They had too many ball handlers in the starting lineup. They put Reeves on the bench, which was a very smart move by Darvin Hamm. They had too many ball handlers in the starting lineup. But D'Angelo, he wants to handle the ball. LeBron handles the ball. Reeves handles the ball. And whenever you have a big on your team and you throw him the ball, that becomes, in essence, a ball stopper, right?

So now you have four guys. And I thought what Darvin did with putting Reeves on the bench. Now, the only thing you have to figure out is Reeves and LeBron's numbers together are unbelievable as far as plus minus. They were last year. They are again this year. And you can see Darwin figuring out, OK, I'm still going to bring him off the bench. I'm going to take LeBron out, but I'm going to try to put him back in whenever Reeves is on the floor.

And then the last part of that is they finished games with Reeves on the floor. So, you know, they did. They put the right guy on the bench, too. I don't think D'Angelo could have handled it as well. And so it's kind of worked out for him. As a guy who grew old in the NBA and started to physically try to hold on there for the last couple

years, do you watch LeBron? I know everyone's like, you're 21, can't believe it, but do you watch somebody with this many miles on him and you're just stupefied by it? He's played almost 70,000 minutes now. Yeah, listen, I played 13 years, should have played 12

pop talked me into that 13th year that to this day i still tell them you're the reason i walk the way i walk i mean uh there there were several games billed by last year uh one of them uh involved alan houston which i just i, I woke up old one morning. You know, and that's what happens. That's what amazes me. LeBron, he didn't have a lot of old nights. He has a couple where you can see he's tired. But athletically, he has no zero old nights.

And I just woke up old one night, one game. And, you know, I'm on the floor about four minutes I call the timeout not Bob Hill with the Spurs I called the timeout I say I'm done for the day gotta take me out I have no legs and then the other one I told Jason Giddens recently I think it was his rookie year and he was coming at me in a fast break, Bill, and I knew as the speed, I couldn't get out of his way, not alone guard him. I was just trying to get out of his way. And I was thinking, it's time for me to get off this floor. LeBron is still the best athlete on the floor, at least for the play-in, which tells me he can do it doing the finals and doing the run for the finals.

He had the most energy of anyone on the floor. He played harder than everyone on the floor. It's just amazing. And I know he puts a lot into his body, you know, hours. And I had a great talk with AD, you know, uh, the one of the mornings off. And I just, I said, what do you, what do you see in LeBron? And he said, coach, I've been around players all my life. I've never seen someone work so hard and someone put the hours in. And he said, I'm not talking about doing the season. I'm talking about doing the

off season. I mean, he just works and that's why he's where he's at. Yeah. I mean, he just works. And that's why he's where he's at. I mean, that's basically the Tom Brady story too, right? It was like, there's no way a quarterback will be able to play into his mid-40s. But it was 365 days a year for him. And it seems like it's the same with LeBron.

It's just a routine of, I'm just putting in these three-hour sections twice a day. I'm going to do every, I'm going to eat the perfect things every day. And just every single decision I make is to try to keep going, which is what Brady did.

As LeBron told me, other than wine, I put nothing bad in my body. Right. And AD says he carries bags around of different foods. And he said it's down to the timing. There's certain times that he has to eat. There's certain times that he can't eat. said, it's down to the timing. Uh, there's certain times that he has to eat. There's certain times that he can't eat. Uh, he said, it's just incredible to watch.

Yeah. In your era, Larry Bird would stop drinking beer right before the playoffs. And that was his big concession to his body, right? It's like, I'm not going to drink. I'm not going to drink Miller Lite for two months. I'm taking this seriously now. You know, Bill, when my era, they didn't have a water cooler after the game. The cooler had beers in it. You couldn't find a water anywhere after a game. You had to go look for water.

It was all beer. You know what's interesting also is just the nutrition. Before that famous Game 7 that the Dominique Wilkins,Larry Bird game, somehow room service was not delivered in Boston. I'm not saying they played it.

I can't believe that. I'm shocked. We were staring at the Marriott, and no room service with no players. Remember, it was a 12 o'clock game. So we go over to the garden. We're starving and pissed because there's no food. Remember, there was a Dunkin' Donuts across. I think it's still across to the garden. We're starving and pissed because there's no food. Remember there was a Dunkin' Donuts across. I think it's still there.

Oh, yeah. Still there. Yeah, our trainer sent the ball boys over. And they got donuts, hot dogs. And that's what we ate right before game seven. And listen, maybe I should have eaten it all the time. I played great. I was going to say that was one of the best games of

your career. You got a standing ovation when you fouled out. I was at that game. Wow, that's a good memory. I had a hell of a series. Yeah, you were awesome that game. I played well. But yeah, so nutrition is a little different back then. That's funny.

Well, we were talking about it on Thursday's podcast about you have LeBron on the one end who's just defying everything and so much of it has to do with how he takes care of himself. And they beat New Orleans on Thursday by 40 points and Zion just looked completely out of shape.

And, you know, he's a max guy. He's so talented. And all of us at the game were just kind of disappointed. And we were like, the game were just kind of disappointed. And we were like, how can you be on the court with LeBron? Who's same physical gifts in a lot of ways, right? Like a one-on-one physically, but yet also really takes it seriously and takes care of himself. And here's Zion, who was also a one-on-one physically and just doesn't seem to get it. And how do you not get it when you're on the floor with a guy who's 39 years old or 38 years old or over LeBron is,

who's maximized everything he can do? Hey, does he ever get it? Like at what point do you just give up on somebody? Well, I would never give up on that talent, you know? And that's, that's probably the curse of a coach, uh, because you always believe at some point you can get a guy to change. And it's going to have to take change. You know, now he's still playing great. He's had amazing games. He's 36 last night. Exactly.

So that's the point. Like, he has these games. And, you know, I think all the comments coming out of the tournament probably spurred that 36 on. Yeah. But can he do it consistently and bill i worry about guys like him i had big baby um those guys you know i don't know who said it a great player said it um that i've never seen a guy leave the league smaller you know and i don't care how they come in the league. They always leave the league bigger.

And, and so that's a concern. And, you know, I, I, is it an eating disorder? Probably it has to be right. Um, and so we're working from a rational mind, like, yeah, obviously that's what you should do. Um, I mean, I, I always look at every single person that plays with LeBron. Like, why wouldn't you do that? Right? You know, that's rational. Tiger Woods, if you remember, outworked everybody. He was already number one in the world. He was already the best golfer in the world. And yet every single golfer talked about how he outworked him. And I used to sit back and like, well, rationally, that makes no sense.

How can you ever beat him if he's already better and he's outworking you? You know, and so I look at Zion and the concern for me is that I can't beat this. I'm hoping when you're around him and I think, Bill, you've been around him a couple of times. He's a super kid. He really is. And I guarantee you he understands that he has to do something. But the problem is Kenny. And that's what I don't know. Well, it's not even an eating disorder as much as probably a lifestyle disorder, right?

It's about choices, which I certainly made my share of horrendous choices in my early mid-20s. And I get it. I don't know if I would have been able to handle making $50 million a year, having the responsibility to play 80 games over six months. But what was amazing watching him in Vegas, even though they're getting killed, is he would still have these bursts of athleticism and explosiveness where you're like, even you're carrying all that weight,

you're still doing that. That's, I guess, the curse of that. It's one step away from an injury, that you know that that's i guess yeah but it's one it's one step away from an injury too well that's that's the issue yeah every time he leaves his feet with that weight you're concerned he's one of the best finishers in the league like when he gets to the rim and he takes unorthodox angles um it's amazing how soft his touches around the rim with the angles that he's taking, but he can take them because he's more athletic. He's up there. It's like he's gravitating in the air at times, but boy, when he comes down,

can you imagine the force on his body? And they're working. You see the trainers. That was the other thing, being around all the guys for four days and going to their practices and seeing them uh there's a lot of work going on in the nba right now and and zion was one of the guys working uh but it's it's all the rest of the stuff all right so you mentioned you had some guys i mean you coach for a long time you had some guys that you just couldn't break through like they can you talk about one of the guys? Who was somebody that you just felt like physically had everything but couldn't get out of their own way?

Well, surprisingly, Glenn Davis. I thought Glenn Davis had unbelievable feel. You know, he was skilled. He was. He had a very he had a very high basketball iq uh but boy we struggled every year i remember uh b-dude was one of our trainers uh almost in tears in one training camp because i think it was a bit for six day in camp and and they weigh guys usually a typical training camp i would say a guy loses, I don't know,

between 10, you know, between five and 10 pounds. Yeah. And I think it was a four for a fifth day beating once I have a meeting with me because baby had gained six and he couldn't figure it out.

He's like, it's impossible, doc. We're going two days. We're going hard. This is impossible. And, you know, it was because of eating. And, you know, sometimes it's drinking, but it wasn't with Big Baby.

It was just he ate a lot of food. He ate the team meals and didn't even go off and eat more meals. But there were times where he would do it right and go in stretches. His weight bill fluctuated through the year, like each year, I'm going to guess between 10 and 30 pounds. The weight fluctuations were nuts. And, you know, so he was one of the guys and I probably had a couple more than I'm not thinking of, but it's difficult. It really is. I'm with you on it. I thought big baby was very

skilled. I was always, he was good in traffic. He was good bouncing off people. He was always in the right spots defensively. And you're right. Like, I mean, you maximize whatever he could do in 08 and 09, but for the most part, it was a pretty disappointing career. I look at, you know, there's two types, right? There's the guys who can't stay in shape, and then there's the guys who aren't really wired to dominate night after night after night, which is something LeBron has taken that responsibility of.

He just doesn't take nights off. Part of it is because he's able to just go downhill whenever he needs to do anything. But you coach Tracy during his Orlando Apex when he was like 32 a night where he did have that

where he was the night after night will to dominate. And then it would kind of come and go. And then he had it again in Houston. But I was always a team back defender. And I always thought if you look at his teammates during the peak of his career, it's kind of amazing that he even had the success he did and other people would ding him for the playoff stuff. But he kind of fits both sides, right? Because we were like a little disappointed by him, but then he was also awesome. And he kind

of floated between those two things, right? Yeah listen i had him young and um you know he was so talented he was a great offensive talent he actually was a hell of a defender at times as well yeah i don't know you know i think if t-mag did his career over he would have probably wanted to be a better teammate and learn how to be that uh and and be a better leader and that teammate because that's the wrong word because he was a pretty good teammate, but more of a leader. But to his defense, he didn't have a lot of help. His help was supposed to be Grant Hill. People forget that. Bill, we had a chance at one point, and this is a crazy thing to say.

There was a night when Tim Duncan came to us, and there's this whole rumor that I said his girlfriend couldn't fly on a plane, which is actually not true. I actually heard Grant Hill tell the whole story, and it's not actual factual. Tim Duncan left Orlando and told me and John Gabriel that he was coming. All right.

Well, just for the listeners, you were one of the first teams ever that actually created summer cap space for, for three stars. You had the chance to get Duncan and grand Hill and Tracy McGrady. Well, no,

no. See, that's the misnomer. We had enough money for two. Oh, I fucked that up. Okay. No, we didn't have enough number for three. So think about this.

There was one night when Tim said he was going and we were concerned. You know, I called John Calipari to get recruiting advice from him because I thought, who better to ask than John? And I remember calling the night that Tim left and I said hey we got Duncan we got Duncan he said did he sign I said no he's going back he's going to talk to Roland back to San Antonio and he said well you just lost him because you don't let the guy off campus doc you can't let him off campus but anyway so there was a night that me and John Gabriel and and the ownership was sitting around. We had Tim Duncan, we thought, Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, and Eddie Jones.

And people forget at that time, Eddie Jones was probably in that same category as everybody thought to be. But we could only take two. We could not create enough money for three. That's so funny because now as the years pass, I always thought it was the three together, but it just becomes telephone where you remember it wrong. So we were panicked.

What would have happened if Tim hadn't decided to come? We'd clearly taken him, right? So if it's like a draft, Tim's number one. Tim's number one. But who's number two? Grant Hill or Tracy McGrady? But you had Grant. You knew

Grant was hurt at that point, right? But you're hopefully going to be 100%. Yeah, we didn't know he was hurt. We actually, he was injured, but we thought it was just a small injury and he'd be fine. You know, so, but Tracy hadn't really, I think he had not even

made an all-star team yet. He looked like he was going to be, yeah, he was that third year in Toronto. It looked like he was going to be like

better Pippen, like scoring Pippen. Yeah. And so, it was amazing. We're sitting around and like, Gabe was saying,

listen, I got to figure out a way to try to get enough money for three. I don't know how we're going to do that. You remember we made like 47 trades during the season just to get to two. So it would have been one interesting moment if that had happened, but it didn't.

It's actually a really underrated what if, especially for the 21st century just because we lose four san antonio titles yeah we don't we don't get duncan manu and tony together we don't get that last 2013-14 i mean maybe he goes back after five years i don't know but i was i always felt like orlando's inability to land big guys compared to Miami when they both have the same state taxes thing, right? I know Miami is a little better. We did it.

I mean, when I was there, heck, you know, if I could, everywhere I've been, I've had very good success. You know, I go to Boston, we get the free agents. You know, I got them and we changed the clipper. Whole thing with getting free agents, you know? So we did it. The whole thing was getting free agents. We did it. I got fined doing the Grand Hill game.

The team got fined $100,000 because when we were playing Detroit, every time Grand Hill ran by our bench, I would stand up and say, 80 degrees, no state taxes. I just kept yelling it, 80 degrees, no state taxes and i just kept yelling at 80 degrees no state taxes the entire day

detroit files a complaint and david stern calls me and said doc is it true that you were yelling 80 degrees and no state taxes and i kept saying it's 80 degrees and no state taxes david what do you want me to say? I didn't lie. And the team got fined 100 grand for that. Oh my God. Was that the maddest he ever got at you or was there another time? Yeah, he was, he just, you know,

you know David, how he swore all the time. Oh yeah, I was going to say, did he swear at you? Oh God, he called me, he said, cut the shit. So I had to cut it out. I want to talk about Detroit in a second, but we're going to take a break. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer.

I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that are when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend.

It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,

he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache,

you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. After decades of shaky hands

caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, So you mentioned two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. So you mentioned Grand Hill and Detroit

and you mentioned your Orlando stint. You had that Orlando season. Would you start at 0-8? Something like that? Yeah. We started out pretty poorly

and I told you this as a coach. I made that decision to change our offense. You know, and I had Dave Wu who was a head coach, I made that decision to change our offense, you know, and I had Dave who's a head coach, Johnny Davis, who had been a head coach. And I come to a practice, we have a three day stretch. I think this decision probably was one of the more important decisions in my coaching career because it told me to trust your instincts.

I came into practice and said, we're gutting our offense. Now think about it. We've been through training camp, preseason, and I'm throwing it away. And every coach of my staff told me, you can't do that. You just can't. And I said, we have no choice. What we put in doesn't fit our team and we're going to change it. And we worked our butts off for four straight days. We played that game on the fifth day or whatever it was, we lose, but it looked better. And then Bill, I think we won like 11 out of 12. We went on a hot streak. We became extremely hard to play. And what I came to the realization is we are very good and we're not going to win just lining it up, playing traditional basketball against teams that are better than us. And so we had to play a motion offense, a passing game offense.

We start trapping and playing zones when you couldn't play zones. We got called for illegal defense about three times a game. And we didn't care. We just kept doing it. And it created, it turned us into a 500 basketball team. All right. I bring that up because Detroit's lost 20 straight games.

Yeah. Which is really hard in 2023 when we have three-point variance. And we have a pretty deep league at this point, you just figure there's going to be one game where you go 19 for 34 from three and you just get hot. Every bad team gets hot once a month.

And this team's lost 20 straight. So at that point, what's the fix? What do you do? Let's say you're Monty, you're coaching that team. Obviously, it's broken. So what do you do? Well, say you're Monty. You're coaching that team. Obviously, it's broken. So what do you do? Well, you have two decisions to make. All right.

Now, I lost 18 in a row with Boston, but we were trying to. Yeah. You know, I can say that now. Every time we won a game, Danny almost killed me. Yeah. And you don't try to lose. You just stop playing Paul. You stop playing guys. This is different because they're try to lose. You just stop playing Paul. You stop playing guys.

This is different because they're trying to win. So Monty could joke the game up if he wants to, possibly make changes like that. I would not. I think what Monty is trying to do is teach a young group of guys how to play the right way uh you know install a culture which is so important yeah to a franchise and and work their way through it now obviously losing the games they lose have lost you know they haven't had much shooting they're starting to get some of their shooting back but But I've watched a lot because my son, Spencer's on their staff. He's one of the skilled developers. And so I watch a lot of their

games. And I had this thing when I had bad teams, I felt I was a really good coach and I can get to the third quarter, to the middle of the fourth. I used to say, for three and a half quarters, I'm a hell of a coach. But those last six minutes, I swear, Bill, they lose every game in the last six minutes. If it's close, they did last night. It was a one-point game, and then with six minutes left, and then it was a 15-point game. They just, they have zero closers on their basketball team. And when you have that, you know, I always think about that first year when we used to make up stuff.

I mean, we ran a pick-and-roll one game for Pat Garrity to come off the pick-and-roll, and he made the shot. You know, you're always trying to create a way of winning the game, and you lose a lot of games that way. But I always think now is the mental baggage for these young guys. And that's what Manny's dealing with right now. Yeah, for a big-picture standpoint, whatever, there's going to be five bad teams in the league.

The league's deep. They were going to be one of the five bad teams. I do worry a little bit about the Cade piece. Like when you mentioned they don't have a closer, he was the number one pick. He was supposed to be their version of Hal Burton or SGA or whatever, and it just doesn't seem like he's that guy. There's a lot of bad advanced stats

with him. That would be my biggest concern. It's like you have a quarterback in football. You actually have a quarterback in football now because there's been a Justin Fields resurgence. you're back in you're back in we're back in you know it's like if danny age was coaching the bears he would be pissed right now with this winning you might make the playoffs oh my gosh you're a game out we are because we're in a bad division you know and

other than detroit detroit's really good they're struggling right now you know it's funny about You're a game out. We are because we're in a bad division. Other than Detroit. Detroit's really good. They're struggling right now. It's funny about Cade. I like him, Bill. No, let me put this. I want to like him because there's a lot of things that he can do. He is a great passer.

His shot is improving rapidly. That's why I would say the jury's not out on him. I just think, listen, I didn't lose a lot as a player. I think I had one losing year in my entire playing career, and that affected me. I didn't like it. The one thing I

always tell this when I speak at coaching clinics, the one year that I lost as a player, you can tell who the losers are. I'll tell you that much. It is so obvious. It's so much clearer when you're on a bad team. And when you look around the locker room, you can like, that's one, that's one. It's so much more clear. And so watching Cade and some of those guys, Cade played hard. He played hard last night. He wants to win.

He just needs help. And he's not there yet, but he will be. I think he's going to be a good player. I wanted to play a little game called What's Wrong... So, Detroit we just covered. I just think their roster, they don't have any shooting.

Not sure about Cade yet. Yeah, they're playing two bigs. Bogdanovich coming back. Yeah, they're playing big guys together. Nobody's, you know, they better both be really good if you're doing that. So what's wrong with Golden State conversation? Boy, that's a great conversation. So after Minnesota beat them the second time when they had the fight,

when McDaniels got into Clay and then the whole thing, and you texted me that night, you thought that was absolutely fascinating that that happened. So explain why. Because I think Golden State saw who Minnesota is. And that's the greatest respect. They realize, okay, Minnesota's good. And you can feel that.

You can feel it at the beginning. Because Minnesota had just beat them. They played a second game. And Golden State thought, okay, let's show up and beat Golden State. And it wasn't working out. Anthony Edwards, he didn't get the message, Bill. He didn't know he was supposed to lay down for Draymond. He was talking crap.

The team was playing, and I loved it. I loved seeing stuff like that. And it was almost like Minnesota was anointed that night by Golden State and by the reaction of Draymond and their entire team. So Golden State, Klay getting mad at Draymond getting mad. You don't do that if you don't take the team seriously. No, no, it wouldn't have meant as much.

And that's why, you know, I've said it for years, I love the back-to-back games because it does turn that second game. I don't care if it's two good teams or two bad teams. That second game always brings something. And that game had a lot in it because the first game, you know, there was a lot of talking going on and you could see Minnesota was doing some talking and Golden State showed up and say, okay, we're going to show you who the big boys are. And when it didn't work out, you could see it didn't work out. And that's what happens. That's why I like back-to-back games.

Yeah, the Celtics have Cleveland twice this week and Orlando twice this week. So same thing. The Golden State, the more I watch them, and I said this a couple weeks ago, I feel even more strongly about it now. They just have the wrong roster. They're not big enough.

They don't have enough length. Over and over again, they're getting overpowered. Now you could argue, oh, their record could be this if these three plays didn't happen. And dumb shit has happened to them at the end of games. But they just seem too small to me. And the way the league is going now, when you're talking about Minnesota and the Lakers

and Jokic and Embiid and the Celtics, all these teams have real size. The 2016 model, it just doesn't work anymore. The league's different. Yeah, listen to you. We're talking about size now in bigs. Again, we're back. How about that?

It always goes in a circle, Bill. It always does. I mean, people were like, the bigs are dead. I kept saying, people forget 20 years ago. I don't know how many years ago it was. I think I was just starting to coach the Celtics, and I made a statement, where are the point guards?

There's no point guards in the league. There weren't. There were not. And now, then they took over. So now you can see the bigs are coming back and size matter. Watching the Lakers the other day, they're just huge.

They're a huge basketball team. New Orleans is a big basketball team. And so, yeah, I think, and athleticism. And so I think that's part of it. I think part of it also is Steph is still Steph. Heck, you can make a case he's better. And as crazy as it sounds, Draymond is still Draymond. Draymond is as good or better now with the way he plays

when he's healthy and playing right. Klay's just not the same. He's still good on certain nights. I don't know if he's accepted that. He's in the once-a-week stage of his career. Yeah, yeah. And listen, when you have the two injuries that he had, it's nothing to do with age. It's probably age and injury.

The guy that has to take a higher step with him is Wiggy. I mean, he's got to be the guy. Or you trade him. Yeah, or they move him and get something else. To me, it's like they have to either get him going or trade him, and they can't waste this Curry season. And I said this last year, too. If this was LeBron, he'd be going

nuts right now because he's like, I don't know how many more of these I have left. I'm playing great. We need a better team around me. Curry's never going to do that. But they don't have enough size and they need Wiggins to go. And if he's not going to go, you got to trade him. And then their bench. They don't have a deep bench.

And to me, those are the things that stand out when you watch them play. I would add one thing. I agree with you that Draymond physically looks the same. I think he's too erratic now. And I really worry, like, you watch these games and you feel like he's going to either explode or take a dumb foul or lose it in bad

situations. I don't think he has enough control over his encore personality anymore. He used to be able to harness it and leverage it. Do you think so? I don't. I'd be better than this. Think about it, Bill. He missed a finals game.

That's true. He did punch LeBron. He did knock him in the nuts. He's supposed to be older. He's supposed to be smarter at this point. He's true. True. He did punch LeBron. He did knock him in the nuts. But he's supposed to be older. Aren't you supposed to be smarter at this point? He's in his 30s. Yeah. Sometimes you are what you are

and what he is, he needs to be that. But there's times you want him to stop it. You know? Yeah. So that's the problem. I think that seems a trade

waiting to happen. Yeah. So the Celtics are playing, by the time people hear this, the first game will happen. They're playing Cleveland. Cleveland, I think they're like 13-10, something like that. They're fine. Every time I watch them, I'm like,

what's off? What is this? What's going on? My working theory, well, I think there's two. And you tell me what you think. One is that having Garland and Mitchell maybe just doesn't make sense. It's kind of, it's like you have two drivers, you've got one set of car keys. It's like, whose car is this? I think they're battling that. And then the other thing is, can you play Mobley and Allen together if Mobley can't shoot threes in 2024.

So you have those two things simultaneously. And I think that's why they are where they are. But what's your theory? A little bit of both. I think we all thought Mobley would be further. Yeah, I certainly did. Like when he first came in the league, we were all raving. Everyone was raving. Duncan got thrown around a tiny bit as a comp.

Yeah, threw it off the glass, had all the Duncan stuff, but really hasn't taken the next step of improvement. And because he hasn't taken the next step, and you have Allen too, I don't know if that works full time. The other thing is they get injured a lot. Garland misses a lot of games. Mobley misses a lot of games. And, you know, the number one ability is availability, right?

And so you've got to play more games, more healthy games, if you want to be a good basketball team. And then the guard play is erratic. You know, one night they both play well. It just seems like they haven't figured out, those two, how to play well and give room for the other guy to play well. You know, the old Bill Russell thing. If I can be the only great player on the floor, then we can't win.

I have to be great and give enough room for everyone else to be great at the same time. It's like Donovan will have a game and you're like, where's Garland? Or Garland will have a game and you're like, where's Mitchell? They haven't figured out yet as

a group how to both play at full throttle and not get in each other's way, and that takes turns. And then the last thing... Hold that thought, though. Yeah. Is that something that could be figured out?

Is that just fundamentally not going to happen? Yeah, I don't know, because I thought it would. I thought it was actually a good pairing. Bill, when they first got together, we played them early. And I said, man, if they can figure that out, because the problem is they both need the ball. But we've seen guards do that. So they just have to.

And if they don't, then it doesn't work and they have to move on. The last thing, Bill, with them that bothered me last year, the Knicks just bullied them in the playoffs. Yeah. It was, and then the Knicks have done it this year already against them. And that's, to me, is a team toughness thing, a physicality thing. And Cleveland's the bigger team when you look at them. And so I think those

are the two things that stand out to me. And third if you add toughness. Yeah, because everybody's throwing around the same trade teams right now. It's like Toronto, it's Atlanta, and can you get somebody from Detroit? Might Golden State do something? Cleveland's

not really in those conversations. And they're kind of the stealth trade team for me. Well, they're also the team that may make a trade. Well, that's what I mean. They can go either way. Yeah, they can go either way. You know, it's funny. We talked about Detroit real quick.

Who do you want on their team? I was thinking Bogdanovich. Bogdanovich. Bogdanovich. Or a fresh start for Ivy, something like that. Yeah, I mean, that just tells you where they're at, though. You have to think about, you know, and that's one of the reasons they're struggling. I thought Atlanta was going to be a 45-win team this year.

Quinn Snyder, full training camp, unleashed the offense, Trey and Murray together and they would just be going be an up and down team you know they had some bad luck they've had some injuries but they're 9 and 14 right

right as we're getting into where all the guys are available to be traded and it just seems like they're a trade team does the Trey Murray thing work for you? would you pick one?

what would you do? oh boy it hasn't worked. They're both small in size. Now, Murray will try to defend very competitive, but he's still small at the end of the day and slight. Yeah, I don't see that working. But I'm with you. I just thought Q would come in and offensively would change them. And they have. They've been better offensively at times.

But after that, I mean, they're not a deep team. You just don't see it on a night-to-night basis with them. They're one of these teams. that happened last night against Denver, if you watched that game. I did. They were up early. Then they were down 20. Then they make these crazy offensive runs.

They do it all the time, probably more than any team. They cut it to two, and then they lose. And that's happened over and over watching Atlanta play. Yeah, that's happened over and over watching Atlanta play. Yeah, that's one of those last, it's like those football teams that can go, the 50-minute football teams. And then you get to the last 10 minutes of the game

and it's like, oh man, we almost had that one. Atlanta's like, we almost had that one team. Moral victory team. And listen, Trey at the end of a game, no one wants to be in a one-point game. You saw it last year against Boston. You don't want to be in a one-point game when that dude's on the floor

with the ball because he's capable of making shots. But the defense from him is poor. And, you know, you have to do both ends if you want to win in this league. Yeah. and you know you have to do both ends if you want to win in this league yeah Toronto another day I mean they're in every trade everybody in that team is in the trade machine and it's just not working but yet

there's pieces people like I mean the weirdest thing with them is that Siakam just is throwing bricks from three now he can't make three at all which makes it a little harder to trade for him if you're a team like Golden State. I thought maybe Wiggins and Kamingo for Siakam is a trade that made sense.

And I said that on a pod, and a couple people said to me, how do you play Draymond and Siakam together when neither of them can hit threes? I was like, ah, that's a solid point. Yeah, he doesn't make them anymore. And he's going to be a free agent at the end of the year. Inanobi is somebody that every coach seems to love.

And he's like your classic 3 and D guy. What do they do? I don't think they mind where they're at right now. I really don't. I think Toronto did this because they are going to rebuild. And so they're going to, in my they're gonna in my opinion i think they will move at least one and maybe both guys um but you know messiah he's gonna he's gonna hold it close and he's gonna wait till the last second and he's gonna squeeze every bit of juice out of that orange

that he can get that's what he does so. So I do think, we thought last year they were going to do stuff and they held their cards. They actually had it. You know, never did. So, but I don't think like Masai's upset with what's going on.

I mean, clearly he would like to play a little better, but I think he just wants value and he's going to get it. I thought they'd be a little better. I kind of like the mix of guys this year. I thought Schroeder adding him and I didn't think they were going to lose a lot with

VanVleet versus Schroeder and then new coach, but I not seen it. The last one I had, it was you know, Phoenix hasn't had Beal all year. Yeah. But as you said, sometimes there's certain guys where you just don't have them for chunks of the year.

And he's one of those guys. You pencil him in for the 50 to 60, you're not getting the 70 to 80 from him. So you knew that was happening. You're at 40 now. Right, right. You're in the 40s with him. One thing I've noticed with them, Durant and Booker, when they're together, obviously terrifying, but it's one of those things where, and certain basketball teams have this,

where the thing you don't want to happen in the last five minutes of a game keeps happening over and over again. And for them, Nurkic is just so, I know you've announced at least one of their games, Nurkic is so involved in the last four minutes for them. And it's either he's barreling down the lane and he's kicking out to somebody

or he has to make a six-footer. And it's just a lot of Nurkic. And it just makes me discount them as a finals contender. Because I just don't think he's an elite guy. And it's just over and over again, the ball seems to find him. Well, that's on purpose. Yeah.

By the defenses. You you know i always say that you know i had a player and i'm not gonna use his name but he was an awful shooter and he told me in the playoffs one year he says hey coach you know i know their game plan i think they're gonna try to leave me open yeah and my comment back was i I know. I'm going to try to get you guarded as hard as I can. Yeah, Jalen used to call that the open for a reason guy. Yeah, it's the truth. But I do like, Nerkich

can really pass. He can do things. They're a very emotional team, Phoenix. You know, Booker is so competitive, and so is KD, that they can become a very emotional team, Phoenix. You know, Booker is so competitive, and so is KD, that they can become a very emotional team in the games. And I know that sounds nuts,

but that's something they're going to have to figure out, is how to control that. So how do you use that against them? Well, people get under their skin. How many times do you see Booker and someone going at each other? You know, it happens all the time. Part of that is a good thing.

You want that, but you have to still play right. And that's something. And they're both so competitive. Like, Booker will start going at the guy. We used to try to get Isaiah going because Isaiah was uber competitive, if you remember that. And Mike Fratello used to, that was the one game I could go for it early in the game because if i can score early he may come back at you and if he comes back at you now he's not being a point guard now it didn't work very much because i'd say it was a

pretty smart player but when it did work you won uh but they need bill i'd like when you look at the construction of their team it's constructed pretty darn well. Having Gordon come off the bench is the ultimate guy. And the thing that they missed without Bill playing, they haven't played. They have no equity together. They've not played together. And so you have to figure out rotations, right?

Anybody can figure out a right and just anybody can figure out a starting lineup uh it doesn't even matter in some ways and anyone can figure out to end the last five it's the rest of the game uh who plays the best with the bench uh do we do we put the rent on the floor and take everybody else out or do do we put Booker and Beal together? Like, none of that has been worked on. And at some point, if they don't have a chance to do that, we don't even know what they're going to be. And so to me, I would say jury's still out on Phoenix.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out, has there been a team that's been thrown together like that that's actually just gone and won four rounds? I mean, you could say the 08 Celtics is probably the closest, but you had veteran guys in that team, and a lot of those guys were already on the team. And we were healthy. But think about how much you struggled in the first three rounds.

Yeah, we were healthy. You guys played like 45 playoff games. And Bill, it's funny. That team, we had a lot of changes to that team, but we also had some continuity with guys coming back. But that team, when you think about it, I don't think we lost two games in a row the entire season. And going into the playoffs, remember someone asked me,

do I have one fear? And I said, yeah, we had zero adversity. We've had none. Yeah. And nobody, because then you certainly had it. Oh, we had it quickly, even though it's funny. And I just did the, uh, with Paul, I did their podcast with Paul and Kevin. It's really interesting. Listen to them. You hear so much stuff that you didn't know. They were talking about the Atlanta series. And, you know, you probably remember I made a comment that went over everybody's head, except for the very few. When I made the comment, I said, yeah, the city of Atlanta was phenomenal tonight.

And I wasn't talking about the team. I was pissed because I thought we did take them light, like we got full of ourselves. That was the only time. Paul and them were literally verifying that the other day. They were laughing because they were out there having a good time.

Kevin said, everybody was panicked when we went to game seven. We did not worry about them at all. I said, well, I wish you could have told your coach that. Right, right. Because I was up all night. Well, but the Cleveland, the next series, that was a little.

That was brutal. Yeah, but you knew that was going to be hard with LeBron. And that was just a brutal series. And then after that, it almost like tough, tough, not easy because Detroit beat beat us they're the first team to beat us are on our home floor uh in the playoffs but a little easier and then the Lakers so yeah I think you have to go through that when you when you see those guys now what's it like it's awesome you know uh I talk to a lot of them but I don't't, I'm never around them a lot, you know, just because we're at, you know, spending two hours with them. Tony Allen was with us.

It's awesome. You know, and I always use the Bill Parcells thing about the blood transfusion. When you, when you win a title, you have a blood transfusion with that group and you're always connected. It doesn't matter where I'm at, any house. I saw this summer and he jumps out of the car in LA and just runs down the street and gives me a big hug. I mean, that's just how it is. We'll take one more break and I got some more things to throw you.

We are supported by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube and YouTube TV. Don't change your team when you change your town. Get NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube and YouTube TV where it't change your team when you change your town. Get NFL Sunday ticket on YouTube and YouTube TV where it's easier than ever to keep up with all your favorite teams on Sunday afternoons, especially down the home stretch here.

You can get the mid-season price starting at $79 for the rest of the 23 season when bundled with YouTube TV. It's the most important stretch. We have like 107 and six or six and seven teams. We have a bunch of playoff seeds

at stake. I mean, some storylines to watch out for. Who's going to get the number one seed in the NFC? Can Dallas pass Philly? Can Dallas pass San Francisco? Has San Francisco got the one seed locked up? We also have in the AFC, who do you like? Is there a team that's going to jump out over these next few weeks? And then on top of that, uh, is somebody crazy going to get in the playoffs? Can Buffalo make it is another amazing storyline. Buffalo seven and six, they could be 10 and three.

They could be five and eight. Uh, regardless, there's no better place to watch the race for the playoffs than with NFL Sunday ticket on YouTube and YouTube TV. That includes the multi-view feature. There's seven games this week. So, you know, you need the multi-view feature. There's seven games this week. So, you know, you need the multi-view for that. You get four, you can just pick the four.

It's really easy to pick which ones you want. Thanks to NFL Sunday ticket on YouTube and YouTube TV for sponsoring this segment. It's truly the best place to keep up with all your favorite teams out of market Sunday games. And now again, watch the rest of the NFL season for a much lower price. Get NFL Sunday tickets starting at $79 when bundled with YouTube TV, where you get even more football. Sign up now at youtube.com slash BS. Lowest price on the YouTube TV with

base plan, rest of 2023 season, terms and embargoes apply. No cancellations. We're playing a game of Do You Believe? First up, Milwaukee. Do you believe this is a finals team? Yes. Yes, I think.

You do? Yeah, I do. Today, it's not. But they're going to figure it out. I just believe that. Which part are they going to figure out? They're going to figure out how to play with Giannis and Dane. They both are playing well at times, but they have not figured that out.

That's going to take a minute. It really is. Giannis still has the ball a lot. Dane still has the ball. Middleton is starting to come back. I watched them last night, and they kept trying to let the Bulls win. It was like, come back, Bulls. I watched the fourth in the overtime. Kobe White

was... Kobe White, by the way, out of nowhere, the all-time late bloomer. I had him crossed off. That would be the all-time late. But you just keep... They have no rhythm yet. You can see it, Bill.

And it's going to take a minute, I guess. But it has to start with those two figuring out their process, how to make each other better. I think right now they're both playing to be better, but not to make each other better. And it's going to come. It's going to click. And when it does,

then it makes it easy for everybody else on the floor. I saw them in person with really good seats on Thursday, and it did not seem like a happy team to me, which I was surprised by. And it's why one of the things, it's so important to go to games, especially if you have jobs like ours now, where you just pick up so many different things, and the vibes just seemed way off

with that team, and I was surprised. The body language is not great, right? I saw the same thing. But that's because they have expectations. You know? And I think a lot of times players, and it happens all

the times, players always want to play with each other. Hey, let's go get him. And then they have these expectations, and they think they're just going to roll into the season. I always use the best example of that is we're not going to win one title. We're not going to win two titles. Yeah, well, think about Miami. The first year, they lose.

The second year, we have them now. They're close to losing again. Like, you have to learn. You know, the first year watching Miami, and my players will tell you this, before our game won, I said, these three guys think they can beat us 12. And until they start playing with the other nine,

they can't beat us, right? And it took Miami a year and a half, almost two years to figure that out with each other. And then once they did, you know, they became pretty dominant. Yet they still lost just as many titles as they won. You know, it takes time and it takes you got to give up stuff. You know, like Giannis is handling the ball a lot more. He's probably going to have to handle it less. Like, you know, forget after that Brooklyn series when Milwaukee won, what was the biggest play they did down the stretch?

They put the ball in Middleton's hand and Giannis became a roller at times, you know, and now it looks like it's going back the other way. So I just think it's going to take time with all of them uh but janice and dame will figure it out um they're going to have growing pains um they're probably gonna there's going to be some stubborn guys and mix into that but i think by the end of the year it'll come come together. I hear my two concerns for them. One is Middleton just doesn't look like the same guy in person. And that's fine. He might just be at a slightly different point of his career,

but for what this team is, they kind of need the 2021 Middleton who they can go to at the end of games, but also can guard the other team's best. Yeah. That's what he can't do anymore. He can't do that anymore. He can't guard as much anymore. I agree with that. Yeah. So that's problem one. Problem two is I haven't seen them stay in front of a guard yet. Even Colby White last night was going wherever he wanted on the floor, right? When you were on the first time this year, we talked about Dame's defense, how that was just subplot that everybody

was just not looking at. And they try to hide him a lot. They'll put him in the corners, but they don't really have anyone on their roster to guard. Even the game I went to, they threw out Green. They had Bo Champ out there. They had Andre Jackson was out there. He's just playing

roulette, trying to find anybody who can stay in front of somebody. And they don't have the guys in the roster right now. Yeah. They don't, they don't have a shutdown guard, uh, defensively. And they had one,

uh, and they let him go. Javon Carter. They let him. Yeah. Well, and Drew, but yeah,

Drew was the one Carter is a guy that can come in in spurts and give you, he's an energy defender. They don't even have that and they don't have that connington has been out so they need him back uh but he's not a shutdown defender he's just a great tough player so but i still buy them i still i still put them in the category all right a rare disagreement for us i don't i just don't i don't see it with them this year and we don't know what their roster is going to look like in february but i i just don't see it with them this year. We don't know what their roster is going to look like in February, but I just don't see it.

And then you throw in the first-year coach piece too. And that's tough. That is brutal. Because it's one thing to be a first-year coach, right? It's another thing to be a first-year coach and coach a team that just won a title two years ago. And what happens is the players who are on that team really think they know more at times.

And so Griff has a tough job. But I was around him in the same hotel, and you see that that's going to – I think that part will work itself out. I think the Dame and once the Dame and Giannis part works out, I think you'll see everybody else fall in place. Next, do you believe?

Well, I think I know the answer to this. Do you believe Minnesota can actually make the 2024 NBA Finals? Oh, I think yes. I think yes, too. But they do have that young factor in them. And they can do some silly things as a group.

They did last year. So I'm going to say yes. But you also don't think it's going to happen? Yeah, if you ask me this, who has a better chance, Milwaukee or Minnesota? I would choose Milwaukee. So I would choose Minnesota. Yes.

But I agree with you on the what happens with Edwards when we start getting into game sixes and game sevens and round two and round three. Yeah. And it's like, holy shit, we might actually win this series. I got to do something. You just haven't been in that situation. You don't know how to calm your body down yet. Any of that stuff. Yeah. Both of their starting bigs have emotional meltdowns. Both of them. Right. And that stuff, that's the stuff, that's the intangibles that I don't think people talk about enough.

That stuff wins and loses series for you. And that's a concern. Think about it. Last year they were fighting during the playoffs. They were literally fighting on the bench. So that's a concern. Well, right now they're 17-5. They lost last night, but they didn't have McDaniels or Edwards.

And I think once those two guys come back and they have their team, it's the best defensive team in the league, and it's not close. They have so many options. The thing that shocked me watching them, because I really like watching them this year, I really like, I don't want to jinx it. I'm going to knock on wood. This,

whatever this version of towns is. Yeah. I kind of believe in it. So somebody said to me, I think on this podcast, I can't remember who said it, but the fact that Edwards is so obviously the alpha. It's so important.

It's so good for towns. Cause towns is like, Oh cool. I don't have to be on the movie poster anymore. I can just be one of the other guys, which is kind of who he is. And I think he's always fighting to be number one. There's all these stupid

little competitions on almost every team where the guys are fighting to be two and three or one and two instead of just playing. And I think Towns has always wanted to be number one. He's fought to be number one. But with Edwards, he knows he's not number one.

And sometimes the best thing that happens on the team is when there's a clear separator. You know, I go back to, I remember Austin's first game at Duke. At Duke. And, you know, he was a freshman. And Austin's passing, you know, just trying to fit in. And Coach K grabbed me after the game.

And it was one of the few times Coach, like he said, and I used to always tell Coach, don't talk to me. I'm a parent. Right. I don't want to hear it. And he says, no, you got to hear this. I just need you to listen to me on one thing. You got to tell your son he has

to be the best player. He has to separate himself because then I could make him the best player because he is. It makes so much sense. I've always said that you need separators. You don't want 10 guys to be equal. You want

guys to separate. I think now that Edwards has done that, now Towns is just going out and playing. He's not thinking about all that stuff and it's made him a better player. And it seems like Edwards is really supportive of Towns and tries to fire him up and get him going and has his back. And there's leadership with Edwards. That's pretty unusual for, I think he's like 22. Yeah. He's a great dude. Yeah.

Just, you could just, he is a great dude. But they said that at the, at the world championships, that was the thing that all the coaches were shocked by. Like he was like this connector. And he's not trying to be,

he just is, you know, he's a guy, he's a pipe piper. Like when he goes out, you want to go out with him. It's going to be fun. You're going to have a good time. When he goes to dinner, it's going to be funny. When you're working out with him, you're going to work. It's going to be competitive.

He has all those intangibles that helps build teams. And he's not trying to do it. It's who he is. And that's what makes him special. If I had to bet on a scenario for that team, it's a little similar to your 88 Hawks team. All the pieces are there. I think they're going to be in a 15-round fight with somebody really good and they probably lose

and it's probably like a game seven in Denver in round three or round two, but it's like a heroic loss. And you're like, holy shit, they gave that athletes are jumping off. They are long and athletic. They have to be healthy. But if they're healthy, man, there's a couple of teams I don't want to play. One will surprise you in the West. Minnesota, I want nothing to do with. They're just too athletic.

They're also wild. They're not scared. And Conley is perfect for them because he kind of calms them down. The other team that this will shock you is New Orleans. If they're healthy, if Zion is anywhere near

right, I do not want to play New Orleans in the playoffs. Those are the two teams in the West. They had such a disappointing semifinal in Vegas. I thought they were going to win. I thought they were going to beat the Lakers. And then I saw Zion warming up, and I was like,

oh, they're not going to beat the Lakers. Size, shooting, and weird lineups. Like, one of the things that scares me about Milwaukee is there's not a lot of moves with that team, right? You kind of know what they're going to have out there in crunch time in some form, and there's not a lot of moves with that team, right? You kind of know what they're going to have out there in crunch time in some form, and there's not a lot of malleability with the roster. That New Orleans team, they can throw 15 different lineups out,

and I like 14 of them. And they have great defensive guards. I mean, they're good. They can be really good. Ingram's a guy, though. He has to be the guy that, you know, can he be good if he's not number one you know that's that's the question with him like he struggled in the olympics or with the usa team because he was not the number one option and so that's to me is he's gonna have to figure out there's gonna be

nights where there's others and can you still be good with it? Yeah, I watched that game with Russillo and a couple other ringer people and there's a New Orleans lineup that I just want to see more of that just this long lineup with Daniels and Herb Jones and Ingram and Alvarado and it's like, man, that team

would be a bitch to play. Just bring the ball up against. Herb Jones is the best defensive player in the league that we don't talk about enough. He is a great defensive player. You know what I meant to ask you? You reminded me of a tangent. I think on the first pod

you did, you talked about Drew. I think you called him a plug-and-play guy. Yeah. You said he's one of the five plug-and-play guys in the league, but you never said who the five were. Yeah, I use them as five. I don't know who the other five are. So who's the entire list?

Let's think about that. Is Derek White on that list? Derek White is on everybody's list. He's just one of those guys. Here's another guy. Eric Gordon. Not necessarily defensively, but Eric Gordon not necessarily defensively but Eric Gordon you can trade anywhere

and he's going to be the same player no matter what happens and he fits the team like it's funny he starts he doesn't start he plays well he doesn't play you can put him in the corner you can have him initiate the offense those are the type of guys that you love

to have on your team. I'm trying to think of a couple more. Because Caruso seems weirdly to be one of those guys now. You wouldn't put him quite there? You want him to be, but we haven't seen enough. I love Caruso. I tried to get him when I was with the Clippers after his first year. I love that kid.

And he's shooting the ball better, but he hasn't been a consistent shooter yet. So ultimate plug and play guys all time? All time. Pippen? Like mid-90s Pippen? Yeah, Pippen can play anywhere. With anybody at any time.

Havlicek, I had to throw that in there for you. Oh, thank you. Yeah, because just the way he played was just a beautiful player. You know who doesn't get enough credit for this? Because he's been around so long that there's been 19 versions of him.

But 2012-13 LeBron on Miami was like Swiss Army Knife LeBron. What lineup do you need me for? Because I'll be the best version of any position in it. You know what LeBron doesn't need enough credit for is his brain. Yeah.

He really doesn't. We don't talk about his brain enough, Bill. He is, because it's hard to talk about his brain when you see his athleticism. Right. You know, but he is so much smarter than everybody else. I feel like everybody else gained intelligence too the last couple years he's just like figuring shit out like the terminator now you do you remember kevin

mckay made that it's a hilarious statement late in his career he said the problem with becoming an older player is you see everything you should do you just can't't do it anymore. Well, LeBron is seeing it now and he can still do it. And that's what makes him so extraordinary. He's so far ahead. I said it on the telecast the other day. If you could go back to high school with all the knowledge that you have right now, you would dominate, right? You would dominate life. You would dominate life. And that's what LeBron is doing. That's what it looks like when he's playing basketball. He has all the answers. He's moving before they pass the ball. He's telling guys, hey, on this next play, they're going to do this. And he's right most of the time.

The game has become easier for him because of his brain and not harder because of his age. Well, one of the fun things about watching him in person, the energy conservation he does during the game. Oh, yeah. Literally every decision he makes, there could be like,

oh, the game has stopped for foul shots. And he's like, I'm going to walk 12 feet and then stop. And I'm just just gonna stay here and not move for two minutes and then i'm gonna go again yeah they also darvin ham you know people don't give people credit for stuff like darvin ham allows him to call the timeout when he's tired sit when he wants to and tells him when he's ready to go in and people was like oh that's lebron coaching the team i said said, no, no. That is brilliant

coaching. That is figuring out I got to figure out what he can do. And he's going to tell me and I trust him. I think they do that. They didn't do that earlier in the year. Remember, they were trying to figure out the stupid minute things, which I hate. Instead, now, you

can see it all tournament. LeBron, the one time he brought the ball up and just held his hand up. Somebody come get me. And he'll go sit for five minutes. He'll come right back in, sit for two minutes. He'll come in.

I think it's brilliant. That works when it's LeBron. It doesn't work as well when it's Marcus Smart and Joe Mazzulla. No, no. Maybe that's the same effect. It doesn't work with 99.9% of the players

do you believe in OKC yet? I just think they're really good I don't believe they're a championship team but they're just really good they're going to have a great season and Shea can we put him in the top

five yet? I mean he's right there so I was going to ask you Shea, can we put him in the top five yet? I mean, he's right there. So I was going to ask you, Shea versus Halliburton. That's kind of... You know what? That's funny. There's an all-NBA guard spot. Luka's got one. Curry's got one. But then Shea and Halliburton, it's like, well, wait a second, I only have two spots.

What do I do? Oh, Shea. Over Halliburton? For me. And I love Halliburton, but Shea is every night. Teams have not figured out how to slow him down. He didn't have a lot of bad nights.

He's a spectacular player. What I do like for the league, they're both spectacular people. And I think that's great for our league. Halbert, the stuff he's done with Indiana, from a leadership standpoint, seems like a 10 out of 10. and I think that's great for our league. Albertan, the stuff he's done with Indiana, from a leadership standpoint,

seems like a 10 out of 10. And Shea's more, a little quiet, but what's crazy about that team is, oh, it's a tie game with five minutes left. It kind of doesn't matter who's on the other side. It's like, oh, I have to go against Curry tonight? Oh, that's Luka? He doesn't care.

Booker together? I'm going to get my points. Shea's kind of quiet. Sneaky. He's not that quiet, but he's kind of quiet. He's got this competitive gene, Bill, in him. It's an inner thing. When you coach him, you see it. He's a killer. He is

an absolute killer. And I think that's a form of leadership for their team. Well, I got to ask, because your team traded him. Yeah. So I was going to those games his rookie year. I never saw this. I will never say I even saw one piece of, oh, this guy will average 30 points a game. But we all

loved him. And we were like, man, this guy's a real dude. This is a two-way guard. This guy's something. And when they made the trade, and it was all those picks, and I remember doing the pod that night, I was like, man, people don't, the Shea thing is like, that's like a real piece. That guy's really good. So what was your reaction? Well, my reaction was we're getting Kawhi and Paul George. Was happy.

Having said that, I did bring it up, you know, and I did say, man, can we give them somebody else? Like we cannot give up Shea. I even told Kawhi when he was saying, like, I need another guy. And Kawhi will verify. I kept saying, you know, Kawhi, Shea's going to be a star. But how long? I said, I don't know how long, but he's going to be one. You know, and, you know, so I think we saw it.

We didn't know it was going to be this. You didn't know it was going to be this. Nobody knew. Yeah, no one knows that. But we saw greatness that this dude is going to be this dude is going to be a hell of a player. He's a hell of a worker. He's coachable. He's everything that you want in a star player.

And we did see that. So looking back at that Kawhi decision where he's like, I'll come, but you also have to get Paul George. And you look back, and it was like, that was kind of stupid. And I think Paul George is excellent. No, but yeah, well, now you look back because you don't know what shape. But even Kawhi just won the title. It's not like, I got to get a win this year.

He just won, right? Yeah. And you could say, just go to the Clippers. They have a good team already. They have a good coach. They're going to have all these picks. Like, let's just see it for like a couple months and then you

can decide, like that, in retrospect that would have been the decision, right? Forget about the Shea part. In retrospect, if you could have convinced Kawhi, come. Alright, let's see what we have. If we want to go get Paul, we can still go get him. Yeah, that trade with 19 picks was going to be there in January.

No one else is doing that trade. So in retrospect, which we don't get to do, but the problem was we didn't know. And listen, I'm not a cart player or a gambler. I am on the golf course. But it would have been interesting listen, I'm not a cart player or a gambler. I am on the golf course. But it would have been interesting if we had played the game with Kawhi.

Kawhi was basically saying, if you don't get A, he's going to go to B. Right? And Bombers worried he's going to go to the Lakers and the Clippers lose out again. They lost out on Kobe in 2004. But we couldn't lose to the Lakers. You know what I mean?

We could not let them get them. I don't believe in my heart that Kawhi would have gotten there. I don't either. Especially knowing what we know now, it was never going to happen. I think he was coming to us all along, but he had all the cards. You know, it's funny, Bill. He came to my house. Like, I had that house in Malibu at the time, right?

Yeah. That was the only house that he came to. He didn't go to anybody's house in Toronto. He met the Lakers in a hotel room. He wouldn't even go to their facility. Yet he came to my house, right? And I kept saying, he's telling us what he's doing. He's telling us we have them, but he had all, he had all the leverage and we had to buy for sure.

Yeah. In retrospect, you could have done the, and we tried Paul George. They just wanted too much, but we promise we're going to double down. Cause at that point, you had Shea, who was going to be in year two. You still had Galanari, who was still a really good rotation player at that point. Very solid. But in general, I think you would just want Lou Williams. You just won 48 games. You're just going to add Kawhi.

I just don't see him going with LeBron. I just don't see it. No way. He's too competitive. You know, say what you want about Kawhi missing game, but Kawhi's a competitive dude, Bill. Like, there's no

way he wants to be better than LeBron. Like, that's how competitive he is. I just could not see him joining the Lakers. Well, we got to end with the Clippers. All right. What do you see? Man, I don't know.

That's where I've landed. I've also landed at I don't know. I just don't know. There's moments like James does do some good things for them. He plays the pick and roll extremely well with Zub. And Zub's had a resurgence with James. Yeah. He gets their cutters shot because he's a passer.

And so I almost hate to say this, but he, or not, he goes back to last year with us when i was with the sixers he when he plays right like he did for the six was the first half of the year and becomes a point guard that can still score points but just not have the ball all the time he's really good. But when he has those few games that he's at with the Clippers where he's overhandling, holding the ball for 20 seconds, that means

Paul George and Kawhi doesn't have the ball. And everybody would take that. So the stretches where he's playing right, where he controls the team, but the ball is moving. He's really good for them because they didn't have that. And that's a great thing for them.

The question will be, can he do that enough to be happy? All right. And then the question on the other end, the defensive question. He made a defensive play last night, right? What? Yeah, he made a defensive play. But I always say that, like we talked about it earlier. Everybody says they

want to win. Well, if you want to win, you got to at least try on both ends. And so that'll be the second question, is the defensive part. It's hard for me to believe this is a better situation than playing with Joel Embiid, especially the way Embiid's playing right now.

I don't think any guard in the league is better playing with Joel Embiid. Period. It just seems like common sense. It's common sense, Bill. You know what I always tell people? There's only two bigs in the league that if I'm a guard, if I come off of off of they're not switching which gives you an advantage the joker yeah and b no one's switching that like you can't and so you know when you come off of joe

and b you are absolutely going to get something good right You know when you come off a joker, you're absolutely going to get something. And every guard in the league should be running to play with those two guys. For sure. I'm not buying the Clippers. I'm not wavering from my initial stance. I don't see it. I don't see the

defensive stops. I just think three guys need the ball a little too much on that team. Do you think Abid looks slightly better than he did last year? Yeah, for sure. He's happy. So what's different? So he's happy. That's what it is. Yeah. He's happy. And the one thing that I know about Joe Joe is, um, he has, he is like this passive-aggressive killer.

You know what I mean by that? Yeah. He kind of does. He wants to prove something to people. You know, to James and to, like, yeah, I'm good. Right. And I can lead this team. And you feel it.

His teammates talk about it. Each year, I've told you the one thing that I thought Joe had to get better in is making himself part of the team. And you're watching him from afar now. He's doing it. It's coming. He's doing it.

He's passing more. He's engaged more with his teammates. And I know that sounds quirky, but that's so important, Bill. And he's starting to do it. He's already won MVP, Bill. Now you can feel him. Last year, that MVP was so important to him. He's playing winning basketball. He's playing to win now. And I think a lot of it is, you know, the way James came in this year and people talked about the team and, you know, what they need. And he wants to prove, like, I'm Joel Embiid.

You know, and I think he's making that statement. He's been awesome. He's destroying these bad teams, too. That's the other thing. He's getting, like, the 40 points in three quarters, that kind of stuff. The game last night against Washington. Oh, he's playing really well. All right.

Well, we always end with story time from you. So give us, you played for Greg Popovich for a year. Give us a Greg Popovich mid-90s story. And I never prep you on these. I just had to throw them at you the Pop thing because Pop was more of the front office Bob Hill

was the coach the couple things I will say real quick you never actually played for him as a coach? no, Pop was my GM Bob Hill was the coach this is a bad question maybe I should have done a different one

Pop and I hung out because I was old and that was my age group was hanging out with guys like Pop instead of the players almost I've got to tell this story and you're going to, it's nuts

and I'm going to shorten it because it's just too much, but we were down. Oh, Oh, two to the rockets down. Oh, two, uh, in the, in the, in the Western finals, right, man, pop wanted to have a meeting Dennis Robin and pop absolutely did not like each other. I can't believe it. Yeah. Could you imagine? So pop calls a meeting. We're sitting in the meeting. Dennis is not there yet. Dennis walks in as the meeting is about to start a little late because that's what Dennis does almost in purpose because he was in the arena.

He was just being late because he wanted to get on the pop skin. The exchange between those two, and I cannot do it justice, Bill, was incredible. Dennis walks in and says, you know, when I heard your voice, I wanted to turn around. I can't stand you.

This is in front of the team and then Pop goes back at him even harder it was brutal what Pop said back to Dennis then Avery gets involved then Dennis Rodman I mean then David gets involved

Terry Cummings gets involved we had Moses in the locker room and Moses is I love that man like he is such a great guy and I'm gonna the funniest statement maybe ever made in earth was Moses

goes through this long speech about and Avery Johnson just cuts him off hey we don't have time to listen to your press clippings right now alright we know who are, but we're trying to win. And the funniest thing that it was ever said was Avery Johnson was a very religious guy, because that's what he called David. He said, I don't know, man. I don't know. But right now, Allah is whooping God.

Oh, my God. And we, as a group, have to do something about it. We were laughing so hard. I mean, that's how crazy this meeting. And I'm not, Bill, I'm swearing to you, I'm not doing this meeting half the justice. Now, we came out and won the next two. Wow. So whatever it worked, it worked.

But that's why as a coach and as a player, those meetings in the locker room usually don't work. I don't think that would work. It gave us, whenever we're around each other, it's 100% that meeting is going to come up. There's so many things that were said in that meeting. It could have been a movie. It could have been one movie.

Like the most personal insults possible? Everybody, towards each other, back and forth, and pop. Like the most personal insults possible? Everybody. Towards each other, back and forth. And Pop, it looked like he was having the time of his life. He was throwing them out. It was the craziest meeting I have ever been in as a player in my entire career. That's a good one. Well, next time we'll have to do a Moses story.

There's a lot of story time left with you. All right, Doc Rivers, when's your next ESPN game? Not until Christmas Day. Oh, look at you. Yeah, how about that? That sounds like a lot of golf. A lot of golf. I'm going to probably go visit my daughter to see the grandkids. All good.

All right, good. All right, good to see you. Thanks, Doc. All right, take care. All right, that's it for the podcast to see you. Thanks, doc. All right. Take care. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks as always to doc rivers. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti as well.

I'm going to be back on this feed on Thursday with the smoking, smoking hot million dollar picks and some football and, um, and a movie guest as well. So stay tuned for that. See you then. On the wayside On the first side of the road I don't have to ever forget