The Bill Simmons Podcast - Doc Rivers on Denver’s First Title, the Zombie Heat, Jokic Vs. the Greats, and Why It Wasn’t Philly

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by NBA champion head coach Doc Rivers to recap the Denver Nuggets' first title win in franchise history over the Miami Heat in five games. They talk about what made this Nuggets team so special, including Nikola Jokic's historic playoff run, Jamal Murray's growth as a player, and more. Then, they discuss Doc's final year in Philly, his thoughts on what it will take for Joel Embiid to win a title, what it's like coaching James Harden, what happened in Game 6 against Boston in the second round, and more (45:06). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Doc Rivers Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, all hail the Joker. Special guest, a famous coach. It's next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right.

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A Little Blood and Dancing by Tyler Parker. So there you go. Coming up, Doc Rivers breaking down game five of the Denver Nuggets versus the Miami Heat. The Nuggets won the NBA title tonight. Nikola Jokic is our MVP, our hero, our unselfish basketball god. And we're going to talk about that and the Sixers and a whole bunch more with Doc. It's all next. First, our friends from Pro Gym. All right, taping this.

It's about 15 minutes after the Nuggets won the 2023 NBA title. Doc Rivers is here. 15 years ago, he won game six. 2008, little different kind of game than this one. Jokic, MVP, best player in the league. I think we can say it at least right now. But you've been in some of these rock fight, rugby match, everybody getting tight. The free throws stop going in. the threes stop going in,

and then it basically just comes down to defense and a couple of plays. As you watch this, what, what, what parts of your career did this game remind you of? Oh, so many, you know, game seven, uh, Laker Celtic game, which might've been one of the ugliest game sevens in the history of basketball. When you look at the shooting and no one could make shots. And it really does. It comes down to a rock fight. It comes down to offensive rebounds, turnovers, you know, the Butler turnover down the stretch.

Just little plays that are made. Brown's offensive rebound. One of the biggest. Those are the plays at the end of games when your teams are struggling and just trying to find a basket. You know, thought denver you know michael alone uh i thought they did a great job both teams really coach wise uh but malone did a great job of just they knew everybody was struggling they just basically tried to play through yokage as much as they could uh miami was switching uh and putting a small on them. Miami refused to

double-team them and make plays and get Miami credit overall. They guarded it well, but Jokic made a couple of shots enough for them to win the game, and that's what the game was about. I'll tell you, for a coach, Bill, these are the type of games that are really tough to watch

when you don't become the winner of one of those games because there's just so many little plays. There was a play, I think it was seven minutes left. Jimmy Butler should have had a layup, and they took the second dribble and then threw it long, and I think Aaron Gordon got the steal. Aaron Gordon, listen, the clear MVP was Jokic, right? But Aaron Gordon does not get enough credit for his defense.

And he defended Butler throughout the series. And he should get way more credit than he got. Yeah, it's funny. And I'm sure you've had this with some players in your career. But Gordon, we see guys like this come into the league. They're super talented, lottery picks. They end up in the wrong situation for them for what the potential of their career should be. Maybe they think they should be used a little differently than they are.

And then you just see somebody kind of figure it out as it goes along. And then in this finals, I said on Sunday, it was a little reminiscent of Wiggins last year with Golden State, where you know it's in there, you know it's in there. And then all of a sudden, on the perfect biggest possible stage, it comes out and he becomes the guy we always thought like you must have coached you know two dozen guys like that over the course of your career like man it's only the light bulb or whatever right yeah it's the 99 percenters and the one percenters the one percenters are yo kids you know ke Garnett, Kevin Durant. You just name them. But everyone else falls in that other category. And it takes – some guys, they'll never get it.

They just don't. They fight through their career. They want to show you who they are. And then the guys that get it – watch it, Aaron Gordon. You remember him in Orlando, right? He was the best player on the team. And so what happens when you're the best player on a team, you think that means you're the score and you can do things that you're really not suited to do. And then he goes to Denver and early on, he still tried to be that. And then he realized who he was.

And when you can get a player to realize that. And the reason I love watching the finals of the NBA, every time you watch it, if you love basketball, it comes down to what I loved about this series. You had two teams that were over themselves. You knew Spoh or Mike, they could take guys out, no issues, right? Everyone understood their roles. Everyone understood who the man was. They played through him. There was no stuff, what I call clutter. Both teams didn't play great tonight, but it was still beautiful to watch the ball movement.

The big three that Pope got late in the game came from a swing, swing, swing. You go back to a Gordon, just play his role. You're a defensive player now. You're a rebounder, you're an attacker, you're a driver, you're a post player. He would have never accepted that five years ago in Orlando. But the fact that he does now is why he's going to put a ring on his finger.

And from a coach, it's just beautiful. I just love watching the finals because you see that team come together. And now they're made. They're a made basketball team. And listen, the West is going through Denver. It's going to be hard for them to be beaten now because they know what it takes and they've gone through it. You talk about that selflessness that happens. And that's when you know you have the right kind of team, right?

I went to the last round. Gordon was in a little bit of a funk and especially in the Lakers series, they stopped guarding them. Then we get to game four. I think Malone even might've benched him for part of crunch time. And you see that happen. You saw that happen with Miami, like Lowry would be out some games. He'd be back in, but the players have to buy in. What makes them buy in? Because it can't just be the coach. Is it like they can sniff the title or is it the best player on the team sets the tone? What is it? Man, that's a great question because some teams buy in early, some teams buy in late. I remember, I don't know if you remember the Miami-Dallas series. Oh, of course. And Deshaun, and Rick decided to bench Deshaun Stevenson. And Rick always said, if I hadn't done that just one round earlier, it would have ruined the team. But at that point,

Deshaun decided I'm trying to win this. I'll do it for the team. I'll do whatever it takes. You know, my 2018, I would say, Bill, we sold it every day. They got it early. Now you've got to have that guy, you know, that preaches it on from a player perspective. And Kevin, Kevin Garnett was ours. Right. And so, you know, Miami it's their whole culture. You have Pat Riley, you have Spoh, you have everyone. But on Denver, it's the Joker, like just the way he plays. He's soselfish you want to play with him he makes you he he loves you know bill russell said something years ago uh to me we're in a room and he said it on tape before too but he said if i'm the only one that can be great on my team we can never win

but if i can be great and i can allow room for everyone else to be great, then we have a championship team. And to me, that's it right there. And when you get guys to just buy in and understand their role and understand their role may not be the role that fits them, but it fits the team. And listen, honestly, you've seen my teams. I've had teams that they've gotten that. And I've had a lot of teams that have not gotten that. And you don't get to win if you don't my teams. I've had teams that they've gotten that. And I've had a lot of teams that have not gotten that. And you don't get to win if you don't get that. You just don't. And I say that all the time. What do you, the collective personality of a team, right? The 08 Celtics team had a

specific personality driven by a complete maniac in Kevin Garnett, who was intense every moment, every day of the game. And he just brought this demeanor that you either kept up or you were out this Nuggets team. I went to the game four when they, when they swept the Lakers. And what was shocking to me is how unimpressed they were by it and how calm they were about it. I was like, Oh, this team, they know, like this wasn't the round to win. It's the next round. You watch tonight, they win the finals and Jokic is going over and congratulating and saying goodbye to the Miami Heat players before he celebrates the title. It was like, hold on.

I just got to say goodbye to my new friends from Miami that had just mauled me for five games. But there was a calmness to this team that I thought was really impressive for a team that hasn't been there. The 08 team, Atlanta, seven games, Cleveland, seven games. Like those were like, you know, that got tense and tight. Yeah. This team just,

I thought the calmness and maybe because they had the best guy in the league, but the calmness was what made them kind of memorable to me other than the unselfishness. Yeah. But this team also had been through something before, you know, you think about two years ago and that got off a bubble that we were all in, you know, so they went through that. They also last year went through the Murray injury and now Murray comes back. I thought they did a phenomenal job of adding just the right veterans to their

basketball team with Jeff green, even DJ. I'm so happy for him. You know, I'll tell you a quick DeAndre Jordan story. The first time I met him when I took the job, we met at Nobu, right? And I told him, I had a sheet of paper and I said, this is what you can achieve if you decide to put your mind to it. Forget about offense. All right, just forget about it. And I told him, work on your game every day.

And I guarantee you, I will never call a play for you ever uh I said you'll get it from the glass from running anyway I said all defensive team all right Olympic team all NBA team and then the last one all-star team and then the last one was NBA championship well about a week ago, DJ had taken a picture of that and sent it to me. And he was like, I got one check left. And now, so for me watching him, it's just really cool stuff, man. Like that's the part that people don't, with coaches, it's just awesome when you have a player that bought into what you were selling them and then he he gets to achieve it it's cool stuff it really is when you watch somebody like murray did you you had some injuries when you played did you have an injury as bad as the injury where you did right i have i have acl i had back but you know in my era you had an acl right your your career is different

after that you were cooked i came back and i think I have one dunk the rest of my, maybe two dunks the rest of my career when you came back. But to watch him, especially when you watch them early in the year, we played them early. That was the game that Joel had the big game. remember saying to my coaches two things i did say i said denver is good they're really good uh and then the second part is but i don't know if murray can make it back and if he does they're gonna be a hard out right well you could feel that in that december that was right around when you played them like late january early february it was yeah it was kind of like is he gonna be back to bubble murray when's that going to happen? You did something really interesting in that game. I watched a lot of Nuggets because I loved watching Nuggets. Jokic, that was probably my number two team behind the Celtics that I watched this year. You put P.J. Tucker and he just mauled Jokic and he did all the P.J. Tucker stuff, right?

And it reminded me of what Miami tried to do to him this series where they just, every chance they got every rebound, they're grabbing them around the waist. They're pushing them from behind when he was posting up, they're getting low in the ground, dogging into him and making the refs kind of decide in the first quarter, are we going to call this or not? And once they decide we're not calling this, you're golden, right? That's the Miami thing. But I noticed that from Tucker in that game, did you feel like, I'm not going to this or not and once they decide we're not calling this you're golden right that's the miami thing but i noticed that from tucker in that game did you feel like i'm not gonna say you unlocked a way to stop yokage but it at least was something that had some success which nobody had success

against this guy all year yeah the lakers remember tried to do something similar uh when they put the smaller guy on them and then they allowed anthony to rotate. What I liked about it was, first of all, it freed Joel up. At the time, we were forcing Aaron Gordon to shoot threes. And then the best part of it, when Jokic went in his move, now for us, Joel was the guy that can come and help. That's a seven-footer coming to help. And I thought the same thing for the Lakers if they had some success with it. Now Miami, unfortunately, they don't have that guy that shot blocking presence to come so I thought

it did bother Jokic a little bit but at the end of the day he's the joker he's he's just so tough he makes the ugliest shots look unbelievably beautiful it's amazing from a I'm telling you from a coaching drive some of the shots that go in, you're like, early on, you're like, how was that? And then you realize it's just who he is. Right. Crazy touch. Well, you said they don't have the shot blocker, but they did have zombie Kyle Lowry, who just

comes in and somehow is a defensive force at 6'2". When you see, you know, this is the part of the season, somebody wins, we start overreacting and comparing guys to the greatest guys of all time. I always felt, and I was pretty consistent with this on the pod, like, you know, Yokeage, Bird, Magic, these elevator guys that are just like the rarest of superstars, right? Where everybody who plays with them basically wins the lottery. You're going to be the best version of yourself because this guy's on your team. There's pieces, you know, of 77 Walton was before your time. You were, you were not in the NBA yet, but the way that he, you know, the teams were able to

fast breaks and the half court stuff, some bird, there's like some weird clumsy McHale stuff that I think he has. What other old guys do you see in him as you watch him? Oh, wow. I see a lot of it, a lot of guys. And that's probably why he is so good. I mean, he has a footwork of Elijah one. It's just not as fast. You know, he really does. He has great footwork or, or Kevin McHale, maybe a better example of Bill Walton as a passer. But I think the other thing that people miss, he's a dominant rebounder, Bill. He's dominant in rebounding. And he has great touch, the tips around the basket. You know, I don't know who that reminds me of, but he does it every night.

It's not a fluke. But his passing, you know, we keep saying Sabonis and Bill Walden, I guess, would be the two. Even Brad Miller, who doesn't get it. He was a great passer. A lot of people don't realize he really was a great passer. So he just has that ability. But the difference is between Sabonis at, you know, when he came to Portland, even Bill Walton when he got older. Obviously, the young Bill Walton is different. He's also the best player in the league,

and he's doing the same stuff, and he's so unselfish. And he always passes when the pass should be made, not after the fact. He's not one of those bigs that tries to score and then passes. He just passes when a guy is open, the fact, you know, he's not one of those bigs that tries to score and then passes. He just passes when a guy is open and he keeps it extremely simple in doing that. So, you know, my son Austin played with them last year, year and a half, and he said it was the most enjoyable year he's ever had because, you know, Austin said, Dad, I was never a cutter.

You know, I over dribbled. That was probably my problem half the time. Yet I'm cutting, and he still swears. And I wish I could remember the play. He swears that he blew the greatest pass in Jokic's career. There was a pass that Jokic made behind his back through traffic, and Austin caught it. And he says, I was shocked that the ball was in my hands

and he smoked the layup and they laugh about it now. But he just said, playing with that guy, you know why people don't cut? Because they don't think they're going to get the ball. You know why teams don't run? Because they don't think they're going to get the ball. The reason Denver does all that is because they know they're going to get the ball.

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So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me.

Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. So Jokic is so much fun to play with.

And here are the Nuggets. They've won a title. And sometimes when a team wins a title, it's either the culmination of something or it's the start of something, right? When the Celtics, and I'm going to use we even though I was not on the team. When we won in 2008, the two of us and our team, it felt like it was maybe a three-year run, like a three-year, four-year window, right? What were you thinking for windows? Three years, four years? Yeah. You know, I don't know. I just thought we had a window um and obviously we we made two

i guess basketball wise kevin get hurt changed all of our four yeah you know yeah uh i i wish someone i don't know our record bill you i'm sure you know it or can find it but our record to start that following year on the day that Kevin got hurt was extraordinarily good. It was like 30-5, right? It was like 31-5, 30-5. And we weren't having close games. We were beating the hell out of teams. Yeah.

So that's the one part. But then the second part is where and I tell teams this all the time when I talk to other NBA coaches when they win it or I talked to a lot of coaches and. Don't break up. The top seven, eight, keep the nucleus together. And if you think about it, we we kept nipping guys away.

We took Posey away. Posey. My dad is still upset about Posey. Yeah. Yeah. PJ Brown retires. We we Posey away. My dad is still upset about Posey. Yeah. P.J. Brown retires. We trade Tony Allen. You start getting this false sense that we can win with anybody. We did win games. We almost won a

title in 210 with a team that was literally dying on the wheel. That's the one thing I always look back on is like, we shouldn't have done that. We should have just kept that group together through that run. And I don't know if we could have still sustained Kevin's injury. Probably not.

But I think we would have had a better chance of doing that. Well, this Denver team. So you got Yoko. She was literally in the prime of his career, which seems like it's going to last. KG was a little older on that. Oh, it's Celt Denver team. So you got Jokic, who's literally in the prime of his career, which seems like it's going to last. KG was a little older on that 08 Celtics team. Allen and Pierce were both older.

This nucleus of Murray and Gordon and Jokic, and then you figure they're always going to have a couple role players. But the other piece that they have that I think with this new CBA, I don't know how much you've studied the new CBA and the second apron. And it really feels like the middle class is going to get a little bit destroyed. And you're going to have a lot of people who are like, wow, we can get that guy to play with us for two and a half million or three million. Do you think Jokic, not only the chance to win a title, but to play with him? Does this become one of the biggest assets any team has?

Yeah, if I'm a free agent, right, and I can't get what I want. win a title, but to play with him, does this become one of the biggest assets any team has? Yeah. If I'm a free agent, right. And I can't get what I want and Denver is there. I know if I go to Denver, I have a chance to win. And I also know that I'm going to get every open shot, uh, that I want. Uh, I'm going to have a chance to elevate my numbers and then leave. And I think that's what you're going to see, Bill. You're going to have a chance to elevate my numbers and then leave. And I think that's what you're going to see, Bill. You're going to see a lot of teams with these one-year guys and guys that are leaving. I think you're going to see a ton of it. Oh, I don't. I mean, that sounds like football more than basketball, right? I don't know if that's a good thing for the sport. I don't either, but I don't know if it's bad. I'm not sure, but I definitely think that's going to happen.

It almost has to because people are going to take the long game, right? They're going to bet on their own talent, and so I think a lot of teams will go on to this, a lot of the good teams. And I worry about the middle teams that have a chance to elevate. And, you know, I made a living, especially with the Clippers. We signed every guy on minimum. Now half of it is, you know, a lot of them wanted to play for me, but I wouldn't,

my ego's not so big that I knew that a lot of guys wanted to play in LA. They just did. And so we took advantage of that. And we got a ton of players in that and that worked out for us. Yeah. So it seems like if they can keep that threesome, they can keep KCP, then Bruce Brown is probably worth – he played for 4-7 this year. He's probably worth more than that. Jokic made him even more of an asset, and him showing a different side of his game than he did in Brooklyn.

So I think it's definitely – Bruce Brown was perfect, though, right? He's a great cutter. he was a great cutter last year so what does he do he picks the team where if you cut you score now he made threes this year as well and he defends uh so yeah he made a lot of money i tell you the guy that i'm i don't i don't know him i just know some of these guys on Denver through Austin. But the guy that I'm really happy for also is Porter. Because think about Porter, Bill, coming into the draft.

People thought he was surly. People thought he was a bad guy. Some people thought he was a bad guy. Some thought he was uncoachable, not a winner. Most people were worried about his health. I look about – you think about coaching future, right? We drafted Shea Gildress Alexander and then we have the

second fake could have drafted Michael Porter and we passed and drafted Jerome Allen. When Dibbert came back and beat us in that series in the bubble and Porter's making those shots, I'm sitting there thinking, that guy should be on my team right now. You know, but it's amazing. But at the same time, his back was terrible, right? Like, I mean,

that was the reason everyone was scared of him. I think the main reason was his back. Right. And then the other stuff, it's what was the real decider by pushing him away. But now you look at it, like he was red flagged by most doctors, and most doctors were probably right. And this guy worked his butt off. He's playing with a rod in his back. And what stood out in this series is he did everything people said

he would never be able to do. He rebounded the heck out of the ball. He defended as well as he possibly can defend. And he made big plays. My favorite play of the game was late in the game. He pushes the ball up in the fast break. He gets Murray a three in the corner. That's not Porter two years ago.

That's not even who he was. And now you have a chance to win a title. He's doing all the right things. So that's the kind of stuff that's really cool. He also made an incredible no, no, yes three when it was 66, 66. And those are the threes. How many, what does that take off a coach's life? Each one of those no, no, yes threes.

It's like one day, just at the end of life, you just, oh, I lost that day on the no, no, yes Porter three. And that time Rondo took that three that he shouldn't have. I mean, imagine Marcus Smart, Brad Stevens, and that's Coach Marcus. Yeah, you know, it's funny, though. You give certain guys green lights, and

you have to live with it. I learned that early on, I think, in my career. You know, Jamal Crawford, remember him telling me after he retired, he said, can I ask you a question? I think, in my career. You know, Jamal Crawford, remember him telling me after, you know, he retired. He said, can I ask you a question? I said, sure. He said, you think I took bad shots? I said, Jamal Crawford, you took some crazy shots.

And he said, you never one time in my four years or three years playing for you, you never once said bad shot. And I would say, well, you make them. And if I start questioning each shot, then you're not Jamal Crawford anymore. And so I had to live with it. And I think that's basically what you do. Now, when there's a guy that you haven't given the light to,

or it's a guy that takes a shot that is not his shot. Now, those are the ones that will send us to our grave for sure. I'm glad you brought up Porter. Cause I was saying how that nucleus would be the three of those guys, Porter. I don't know what the tax and stuff. I just don't know how many of these expensive guys you can keep and he's over 30, but if they, I agree with you from what he showed from an intensity and a two-way aspect and the size that he has and to be able to guard some of the wings, I just didn't see that same intensity from him during the season. So he's another guy who might have kind of had a moment,

like some sort of breakthrough. It changes you, Bill, each round. I really believe this. And I tell the teams I coach each round. Now, first round, you win, you start growing together. You start trusting each other a little more. You start trusting coaching more because at the end of the day, it's all about cooperation. When you have teams that are in,

that means they're all cooperating with each other, with everyone. Second round, you get it a little bit more. Third round, it really starts coming together, but you get it a little bit more. Third round, it really starts coming together, but you get tested and you can go away. When you get to the finals, it's there. You've gone through every test possible, and now you're only playing to win. Everything's about winning. It's no more playing for contracts, no side agendas. Everything's about winning. That's the only, it's no more playing for contracts, no side agendas. Everything's about winning. And then once you do that, if you win, it's from now on.

That's who you are. That's who you play. That's why teams love grabbing. Think about tonight, who made big shots? Pope, well, he won a title with the Lakers. Kevin Love had that little stretch. Well, he won a title. Kyle Lowry, well well he won a title kyle lowry well he won a title it

was it wasn't it was really interesting that all the guys who had won started making big plays uh because they've been there before and it started showing yeah i was thinking this game today reminded me of the 2010 game seven that you mentioned, which left, I think we both left parts of our bodies in the arena. Uh, also the O O five Spurs Pistons game seven. This reminded me even more of that was just this, the two teams had just figured each other out. Nothing was going in. It was super physical. The refs kind of didn't know what to do. Duncan was so banged up. I think he played like a hundred games that year plus the Olympics. It was just kind of ugly.

This game wasn't as ugly as that because of the Jokic stuff. And then Butler, you know, Butler's 2 for 12. The announcers, Van Gutter, they're usually pretty careful about questioning the players and they were both like... No, they were begging. They were begging. Yeah, they were like, he's got to... This can't be the

heat role players. Yeah. There was a stretch there with like five minutes left where Miami ran about four or five different plays and Butler was just one of the peripheral guys. It was just kind of standing out there. And even I was sitting there thinking, what is going on right now? And then he turns back into Jimmy Butler. The one thing I think is about three about three minutes, 3.20 left. You can see, uh-oh, Jimmy just arrived.

He actually did make the first one he tried to drive through contact. He may have gotten fouled. But you could see it early. You know, the only thing is it's really strange when you think about it. The Miami Heat, their last two shots of both seasons, last year Jimmy Butler's three against Boston. And then again, Jimmy Butler's three against Boston. And then again, Jimmy Butler's three against,

you know, the last three, three, I mean, there's last three or four shots were, were threes, which is really, you would say not really his shot,

but a shot that he's made a lot more this year. Well, last year at the game seven, as he was rising to take that three, I was actually happy that he was taking it because I just thought he, there was only one guy back. I just felt like he was going to go to the basket and get fouled. The one today was weird just because they had 15 seconds left.

They're down three. Denver wasn't in free throws. 24 seconds left when they inbounded it. Yeah. When he took it though, it was 15. Yeah. And Denver wasn't making free throws. You, when he took it, though, it was 15. Yeah. And Denver wasn't making free throws. You know, they were like 9 for 19 at one point.

So I don't know. I would have put the pressure on it and tried to do it. I would think if, like, if he got some motive, say what he really wanted. He wanted the Duncan Robinson three, and then he wanted a quick attack. Right, right, right. You know, I was sitting there, and I was sitting with a friend, Rick Solomon. I think, well uh you know i was sitting there and i was sitting with

a friend um uh rick solomon i think you know rick solomon yeah i was sitting with rick uh we were watching the game and i said duncan three and that if not quick quick two just get a quick two and i thought they had it because i think if jimmy drives um no one's gonna help now any part of the game other than that they they're going to help. Because you're afraid of fouling him, right? And you're scared of the three ball that he would pass out to. So I think he would have gotten it quick too.

Interesting. So this Miami team, we got to talk about them. My team's down 3-0 to them after winning game six in Philly. I want to talk about Philly a little bit at the end of this, but, uh, we come back and then game seven, Miami comes out and they're just killers and they just do it. I really like the stakes.

I kind of underestimated how badly they didn't want to be the first team that was going to lose three, nothing, three, nothing. We had this series. Like I probably should have thought that out more. Um, but over and over again, either the threes are going in or they can find a way to muck up the game and do what they did tonight where they're just super physical there plays that whole game. There are a lot of them were on Twitter and social media of like them grabbing Yoko around the waist on rebounds, um, then pulling arms, them just, just

all the chicanery that they do when you're playing a team like that how do you coach your team as the other, you're basically in this pro wrestling steel cage match and the refs have just decided alright we're going to operate this way and that's it and you guys are going to have to deal with the rest

how do you coach that? Yeah it's hard but you have to you have to keep convention, hey guys this, but you have to, Bill. You have to keep convincing. Hey, guys, this is the way the game is being played, all right? You just got to keep playing. And it's easier said. I'm the guy sitting where I used to say sitting around and I'm sitting at the top. You know, now we're in quarters, you know.

It's also sad to say, but it's true. But you also have to know that going into it, especially in the closeout game hey and especially the opponent miami listen they're going to do everything tonight i love the first eight minutes of the game because you can see their game plan was really clear we're gonna grab we're gonna hold're almost going to see how far we can go before they call it. And I thought for a minute, Bill, they got to Jokic for a minute. I mean, he got those two fouls. And Jeff Van Gundy made a great point.

When they brought him back in, he tried to throw a guy up under the basket to get a rebound. And then he tried to whack another guy. So I was sitting there. And then there was an elbow that he threw to that. I didn't even see in the broadcast. Yeah. So I was like, Oh my goodness.

It's he's close right now. And you know, Mike Malone saw the same thing. But then it continued. It'd been interesting. It might probably take, takes him out for a minute. That's usually what I do is I'll take a guy out for a minute.

Usually don't go over and talk to him. Like you give him a time out like he's a little kid? Yeah, just take him out. Put him in time out just for a second. And every once in a while, I tell one of my assistants because they give you, people don't understand, when you do that, you're going to have to deal

with the player. Like, he's pissed because he knows why you took him out, but he probably knows after about he knows why you took him out but he probably knows after about 30 seconds because you put him back in that he should have come out uh but most of the time that first 30 seconds is not a good 30 seconds for the coach or anybody and do watch me when i do it i just i shouldn't look the other way i go walk down by the score table because it's something you have to do. And it's funny. I was like, Mike's close right now

because he can see it, you know. But, you know, he got away with it and, you know, kept playing. It's the kind of thing Draymond's really good at getting under the skin. I mean, in Lakers game four in the Denver series, they threw out Thompson, Tristan Thompson. And I was like, oh my God,

I didn't even know he was going to play. And he came out and he did a bunch of Tristan Thompson stuff and he just shoved and pushed and shouldered and bumped in and was just trying to provoke Jokic for a couple of minutes. And I could see Jokic's, you know, his RPMs were starting to rev and it was working. I actually think if the Lakers had to do that series over again, they probably would have just thrown Thompson out and just been like, Hey, bang the Oak. It's around. Use your six fouls.

Just for a few minutes. Listen, read all about to his dying days to me. I wish you could have seen our, our 2018. I really do. Cause he would have loved that team, but he always told me,

he said, doc, you got to have instigators. You're never going to win. You're never going to win without instigators. You just have to have guys. Either they do it physically or they know how to have mental warfare. You need instigators on your team.

He told me that, I mean, 10 times a year, Bill. He always talked about that. And you think about Golden State with Draymond, you know, Miami, they had a whole host of them. Our Celtic team, the whole team was instigators, you know, and, you know, Perk, Tony Allen, Rondo got on, Paul Pierce never shut up. I mean, so we had a ton of guys like that and you need certain guys like that. You know, Gordon is really the instigator in a lot of guys like that and you need certain guys like that you know gordon is really the

instigator in a lot of ways uh for denver and really the way yokich plays his instigation you know he flails he I mean it's it's tough to deal with that dude so you really need those type of guys yeah I felt like my team this year was missing that a little bit. They didn't have. They have Marcus smart, you know, Marcus, but they corporate corporate tried to be that. And Williams was that at times, I will say that Williams, cause he never,

he is never quiet. You know, we all know that. So, so I thought he was that as well. But yeah, I don't think they had that. Like what they had last year.

They were so connected last year. And for whatever reason, this year they just were not as connected, for sure. Can I ask you about, so Jokic wins this. You watched this happen with KG. Yeah. It didn't happen with Ewing. Yeah. It didn't happen with Ewing. Yeah. I think to every Knicks fans, eternal chagrin,

because they felt he's a classic example of like, man, if one game goes differently, his whole legacy is completely different. Dirk Nowitzki, the opposite way, right? He,

his career is going a certain way and he's going to be one of the top 40 players ever. But then the 2011, that whole run happens and the finals happen and then that's it. You're knighted, basically. You watch that happen with KG, who is older than Jokic.

Jokic, I don't think, had the career pressure KG had. But what was KG like a day after that? Like, does it change somebody? Or is it just back to work, back to work? And Burton, you know, it's funny. The two things back to work, back to work? And it burned.

You know, it's funny. The two things with KG, when we first got him, and I had that first meeting that's been written about when him ran. And Paul, after the meeting, I remember, you know, right before we went to Rome and me and Tom Thibodeau were on the phone. And Tim says, there's no way this guy has as much energy as as as we see and i said no it's no way it's just gotta i don't know if i'm buying in to the kg energy you know we're just having a little normal conversation middle of first practice i walk over to tibs and put my arm around him i said i think it's real i think i think this is who that is it's real man uh that dude did things bill that you know me taking him out of practice was was hell it was hell

you know he wouldn't come out first of all and then it got to the point any player you put in wouldn't go in you know if i said big baby go get kevin in practice no no coach i'm not doing that because kevin would cuss them out and start yelling at me and so finally the one time i blew the whistle and i said kevin if you don't come out practice is over we're just going to cancel the rest of practice and so kevin is like warriors do not come out warriors don't come out of a game they don't come rest of practice. And so Kevin is like, Warriors do not come out. Warriors don't come out of a game. They don't come out of practice.

And I said, I get you. Let's be a warrior tomorrow in the game, but you're coming out. So I take him out and then he runs on the sideline. He's mocking what the player that's in for him is doing. And so I blew the whistle and called off practice

and everybody's laughing. But it was Danny Ainge and I, we're watching him. It was hilarious. If baby jumped, he would jump. Baby slid, he's down in the sliding spot on the other side of the court. And you'd love the guy because of that. And then I thought coming back the next year, he had more hunger. It was like, we're winning another one.

And it was great because when you have a guy like that, man, you know, it'd be like, I guess, pop with Tim Duncan. When you have a guy that sets the tone, then you can really coach the team. It makes you a much better coach for sure. It seems like Jokic is a set the toner. Yeah. And especially now that he's in shape the way he's in

and how unselfish he is. That's why I think I was saying, I thought this was the best team I'd seen in person in five years. And I missed, there was a pandemic year where I don't even think I went to a game, but the, the offensively, all the different kinds of answers they had,

the way they could win games on the road. Like they won, they went four and oh, and their last four on the road in Miami and in Los Angeles against a good Laker team. And then the Jokic piece on top of everything else. But I thought since the 2017 Warriors, I thought this was the best team.

So where do you have them ranked in recent history? Like 2017 Warriors would be number one, right? Yeah, the Warriors would be number one. Like just in the three-point era. Yeah, right now, over the last would be number one. Like just in the three point era. Yeah. Right now over the last five or six years, for sure. You have to put Denver in there because they have so many guys, so many great road players. And then they have two stars.

Like Murray doesn't get the star credit, but Murray's a star. Murray played bubble, bubble Murray for most of the playoffs. And where he's really improved, you know, in the bubble, Murray was a scorer, and that's what he was. Now Murray is a scoring point guard. You know, he does both things very well. And their two-man game, it's unguardable. You know, think about it at the end of this game.

They've had him now for five games. And you know what Miami came up with? Let's just switch it. Let's put a point guard. Let's switch a point guard on to Jokic because we can't stop the two-man game. I mean, that's what it led to. And that's the type of movement. But where they got really good is all the other guys,

you know, the cutting that all the guys did. The double floods versus the zone so i mean mike and that team they start running stuff just like the warriors did with all the movement you know i have my favorite stat and you know i'm killing the stat but i think curry the year that we beat beat him when I was with the Clippers, and the following year, Curry wins the MVP, and they win the world championship. I think he gave up the ball 47% of the time more. Wow.

He had the ball in his hands 47% less the year they won it compared to the year we beat him and then knocked him out in the first round. And that was all the movement and stuff and And you know, what I believe in, uh, it's just hard to get every team and everybody to believe in that. And when you don't, you're still going to win some games, but you're not going to be the winner. And that's the bottom line. And as a coach, I think once the season's over and you sit back, you kind of realize that with your teams. I'm glad you mentioned that Curry-Clippers game because I went to that game and we were talking earlier about setting the tone in the first

quarter and seeing how far he could get away with. Chris Paul committed 35 fouls on Curry in that game. He did. He really did. He was mauling him. And I left that game and I took my wife. It was our anniversary. I don't know if she was totally psyched about that as an anniversary date. That's your anniversary date? Well, it was the same day. I was like, look, I don't miss game sevens. We're going. And we left that game and she was like, what an amazing win for the Clippers.

And I said, I think Curry's going to be great. Because what I just watched, I can't believe Chris Paul was basically hitting him with a two by four and bare and brass knuckles. And he just kept coming and making plays and making shots. He never got frustrated. That was kind of the moment when I was like, this guy definitely has it. Could you feel that coach in that game? That was interesting. Coaching that whole series is coming into the series.

I thought we were the better team. Now, the players will tell you, Goga State destroyed them the year before I got there. And so my first day in camp, I mentioned Golden State's name like 30 different times. I didn't know we were going to end up playing them. I just thought that that's a team that we're going to have to deal with. And so we ended up playing them in the playoffs. Going into the series, I thought we're better than them.

After that series, I remember Sam Cassell walking in my office and, you know, saying, Coach, we just beat a better team. And I was laughing. I said, no, I think we're better. He's like, no. That team has – they're going to be rough in the future. And Sam was 100%. He saw it. He was 100% right. Let's take a one more break.

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You'll get your questions answered when and how you need. Call or go to statefarm.com for a quote today. So you, during the season, you were coaching the Sixers and you were lobbying hard for Embiid, for the MVP. We had this whole Embiid-Jokic thing that got absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure you were as involved as... Yeah, I said it early. I think I said it before Mike. It got to a point where in some ways it stopped being fun.

In some ways, none of it was fun. What was fun about it? Nothing. Well, the fun part was the competition. then all of a sudden you know you start hearing the race you start hearing just you know i even told joel and just let's just leave it alone i noticed i stopped talking about i made the one comment that the mvp thing is over um but it just got out of hand it's a shame and made the comment, it's okay to like someone and not put down someone else. And unfortunately that happened. I hope that never happens again, but I'm sure it will. What has to happen for Joel, in your opinion, for him to get to the point that Jokic got to tonight? What's missing? Number one, he has to be healthy in the playoffs.

And this was the healthiest, but he still wasn't 100%. Then number two for Joe is he's got to make all his players better in the playoffs. And Joe, his numbers are unfair because he's really, if you look at his numbers in the last three years in the playoffs compared to his regular season numbers, they're not very good. But a lot of that is due, the first year I had him, he hurts his knee. The next year he gets hit in the face, he tears the ligaments in his hand. And then this year he has a knee injury and he was never the same once he came

back this year. So health is number one. Then the second thing is Joe and he has the ability bill. Now I stayed on him daily. He has the ability to make his teammates better. And when he does that, if you look at our games this year, when he did that and dominated hard, hard to go away from Joel and B it really is. He's just got to do that on a consistent basis, not just on the court, but also off the court. Just be around your guys and spend time with your guys

and let them know that you love them because they love you. And so I thought that Joe in the three years, you can see the growth there. And so I think, you know know we forget how young he is we also forget his first two years he didn't play yeah and bill i'm telling you that sets a tone like when you miss two years and you're sitting there all the time and you get used to not planning games uh that sets a tone you know ben sim Ben Simmons went through the same thing. He missed the first year. And so fighting that early on when I first got there was huge.

Joe, you need to play tonight. Joe, you can play tonight. Now he's up in games. And so he's doing it. He's crossed that barrier. The next one will be making his teammates better. When he does that, it's going to be hard to stop. And I think he will do it.

I just think, you know, we forget his age and we forget how he started in this league. There's something with the Sixers culture that I think is a fair criticism dating back to the process, right? Where there's a couple of years there where it's like, we just got to collect draft picks. We're thinking outside the box. We're just throwing assets together. It's not about winning. The winning will come later.

Are there scars from that? If you approach a franchise like that for four years, could you feel the scars coaching the team? Yeah. Yeah. You can feel it all through the organization. And, you know, Elton, when he brought me in, that's what he told me.

Like, hey, this is not just about coaching this team. We're bringing you in here to change the culture. And he meant everywhere. And he allowed me to come in, and we looked through the whole organization. I'm talking about trainers, equipment managers, everybody. And, you know, Bill, I think you've been around me enough. If you're not on board, if you're not trying to win, if that's not what you're breathing every day, for me, it's time to go. And I met that with

everybody in the organization. And overall, you know, I thought we were starting to get it done. You could see, you know, the change in the culture. And so I think the growth of that is there. I think they still have some growth in that department as well. Very media alert is the word I'm using. And sometimes you can't worry about that. You just got to do your job. You got to worry about the basketball part of it. And that's a reaction to when everything happens. But their culture has definitely gotten better. You know, I had a big part in that. And now the growth from there, it still has to get better.

And if that happens, then they have a chance. If it doesn't happen, Bill, they're not going to win. It has to keep growing. So do you look at game six where you're up and Tatum's playing like crap? And there's like five minutes left and you're about to go to the next round, you've had a month to think about it. Do you look back as like,

that was just a weird game where this guy who we thought was dead all of a sudden started making shots and within two minutes, the game flipped. Holy shit. Oh my God, we're losing. Or did that say something more about what was right and wrong with your team?

Probably a little bit of both when I look back on that game, because that was a decider, right? You know, basketball-wise, we got to get the ball to Joel Moore. And trust me, we came out in plays where it should have gone there, and it just didn't arrive there. And so those are big plays. Now, listen, Joel was not having a great day. Yeah.

But neither was Tatum. And my belief is, so what? You still go through your guy and you keep letting him save the day for you. And I thought we went away from that. And then the second part is the fluky part. You know, Tatum, if you remember the big play, we gambled on a play. Someone gambled. I can't remember who it is. It may have been Maxie.

I don't even know who it was. Went for a steal, didn't get it, and they gambled off Jason Tatum and left him wide open, and he made a corner in front of the Celtic bench. And that was – doesn't take these guys but one shot. And front of the Celtic bench and that was doesn't take these guys but one shot and that was you felt that today with Butler remember Butler made one shot it's like oh here it comes now he's on and and from that point uh we were there so you felt like game seven you felt like that you just you didn't feel it with your team no I loved it I loved us.

If you remember the first quarter, we were cooking. We were playing well. Ball was moving. Everybody was involved. The only thing that worried me about that beginning is it was very little of Joel and none of James. And you knew at some point that you're two guys. You're best players in game seven.

You know, that's the Sam Cassell line. Big games, game seven, the Stars have to lead the way. That doesn't mean it's going to be scoring. That doesn't mean they just have to. And you can feel early on that both were struggling a little bit. And, you know, it's not a lot you can do about it when that happens um you know it's funny i thought the celtics in the first quarter were even tighter and and and then uh that last six minutes of the second quarter changed the entire game and you know the third quarter was the longest quarter

of my life now i mean tatum was was you know the, the thing with the Celtics that make it tough for a coach, they make a lot of tough shots. They make and take bad shots, but they have guys who can do it. And so you wouldn't allow it. If I'm coaching them, I would allow it too. I mean, Tatum and Brown can make tough shots. And when they do, they become unbeatable. And that's what happened in that game. Well, I know you told me a story once, I think on a podcast,

or maybe it was just privately, about after 2010 Game 7, you saw Thibodeau a couple years later, and you just started talking about 2010 Game 7. You guys had won a title together. You start gravitating toward the worst possible moment because that's what coaches do you think of you know the worst games like do you think that's a series you're going to think back on or do you just feel like listen unfortunately unfortunately i always look at it both ways you know I've lost what three games with three one leads right um you know and I look both ways like my coaching got us to those leads you know

as well as the players you know you look at that Orlando team my god we got a three one on on the pistons and so it's funny that's a series I don't look back on. Because- You were overachieving. Yeah, come on. Like we didn't have much of a shot. Then you look at the other one, the Clipper one, where we got the big lead and Josh Smith and Corey Brewer, if you remember Kevin McHale, took Harden out of the game.

Doc, I went to that game. Yeah. And James was on the bench with a towel over his head for like five minutes. And that series was over. And Dwight Howard was trying to get thrown out. Like he was committing fouls. The game was over. And then Corey Brewer, I think, makes four threes.

Josh Mipp makes four. And we get tight. You know, you can see it. You can feel it. That's the only time in my coaching career I will say this, where the Clippers have had so much failure in their stratosphere. That's the only time in my coaching career you didn't just feel the angst from the players.

You could literally feel it in the building. And I will say this. I'm so glad you brought that up because I mentioned that after it happened, I'd never been, other than with the Red Sox, in a crowd where everybody was like, oh no, it was like a horror movie. Because it was like a horror movie with a family

that had already been haunted by the ghost and now the ghost was back. And you could feel this crazy energy right you know the first one is a funny story the first one who noticed it remember awesome was on my team right yeah and also had a great series in that series and i took him out uh and i think we're up 18 16 or whatever and he stops in front of me and Sam and whoever, Lawrence Frank, I think was on the bench. He said, Hey, we're getting tight out there. I'm not saying I need to go in, but we're getting tight.

He actually said it. And yeah, we did, you know, especially when they start draining threes from the guys that were draining. I always wonder like ifrees from the guys they were draining. I always wonder, like, if one of the better players are draining them, would that have bothered us less? Yeah. No, it felt like, it actually felt like an unnatural event was happening. Because it's not like Josh Smith was a spectacular three-point shooter.

And it's not like Corey Brewer was either. And they just got in this crazy groove. And I knew the Clips were in trouble because all of a sudden Harden's towel was off and he was standing up. And I was like, oh shit, they think they can win this. It was crazy. Yeah, that was, of all the ones that I think back on,

other than just the game seven, me and Tibbs, I bet we talk about it. We have a yearly talk about that. About running our tests, making the three. And Derek Fisher. Derek Fisher, too. Yeah, but both of them, you know, like we have this thing, if you don't close out totally, you're dead, right?

And if you ever go back and look at those, both of them, Paul Pierce stopped short and challenged them, dared them. And then Rondo did the same thing on Fisher. And those two guys shot it and made it. You know, our game played in that game where we had never trapped Kobe in any of the games that we played in. And the night before, I talked to the Tibbs and said, hey, this is the game we have to trap him.

He's not going to trust it. He's going to try to win this game tonight. Well, you were playing the hero ball. You thought he'd want to be the hero, and you tried to play into it, right? Yeah, and it worked. And then all of a sudden, those two passes, he gave it up, and those guys made the shot. So give them the credit.

They made the shot and give Kobe credit because he made the pass. But, man, when you watch that game, I finally watched it again about a year ago. Oh my God. No. Yeah. It took me a while to say the least. And I was appalled how bad, I mean, both teams had a lot of open shots. It was, it was not a pretty basketball game.

That's for sure. Well, it's similar to what we saw today a little bit. Sometimes these games, you can just kind of feel it hanging in the air. We talked about Harden in that Rocket series, and then you coached him. And this is somebody who's unquestionably one of the best 40 players of all time. But the postseason stuff is just going to be in the first sentence of when he's discussed for the next 50 years, you saw firsthand, what's, what's missing from him as a post-season guy, you coached against him, you coached him, or is it a bad rap? No, I don't think anything's missing, Bill. I think what makes James great

is that he's one of the best individual players to ever play the game. You know, ball handling, handles the ball, you know, dribbles the ball, attacks, but that also allows you to attack. You know where he's at and you know where the ball is at. And so in the playoffs, when teams are game planning against you, each game, double teaming, taking the ball out of your hand, making it harder. It's easier to do that to James compared to do that.

How do you take Steph out of a game? He's running around. He's moving. It's hard. You know, it's funny. Steve Kerr, we beat Golden State, and Steve Kerr used that game and how we trapped him. If you remember in game six and seven we started trapping he used

that and showed stuff like hey it's too easy in big games down the stretch to stop you uh because they know where the ball is at you remember chicago doug collins used to bring let michael bring the ball up the floor and then they got in the playoffs you knew where the ball up the floor. And then they got in the playoffs. You knew where the ball, you knew where Michael was at. And so you attack, Phil comes in and the triangle was moving. Now at the end of the game, Phil Jackson still went to pick him up. You know, Michael Jordan. Having said that, it was the movement and the inability to find where you can trap him that made it so hard. And I think that's James' kryptonite, you know, right now.

But I don't believe the whole thing that he quits and all that stuff i just think teams make them struggle because they know where they're at um and it's easier to find them did you like coaching them was it okay like how would you rate the experience it was challenging uh more because we were fighting two things. It's not like visually fighting. It's that James is so good at playing one way. And the way that I believe you have to play to win in some ways is different because it's a lot of giving up the ball, moving the ball, coming back to the ball.

I would have loved to have him younger when that was easier for him because giving up the ball and getting back the ball is hard. Like loved to have had him younger when that was easier for him because giving up the ball and getting back the ball is hard. It's physical. It's exhausting. It would have been interesting if I had him younger where he could have done that more coming off of dribble handoffs, going down the hill.

He didn't finish as well as he finished because he's older and that happens. At times, to get him to move it and play the way I needed him to play as well as he finished because he's older and that, that happens. So yeah, at times that get him to move it and play the way I needed him to play. I thought the first half of the year, you know, we, I thought we were the best team in the game. I thought James was playing perfect basketball. He was a point guard of the team. He was still scoring,

but he was doing more playmaking and scoring. And then the second half, he started scoring more, trying to score more. And I thought we got stagnant at times. So I thought we changed. Interesting. So, all right, let's say you have Embiid, you have Maxie. Who's the perfect third guy? If you were just, if it was a fantasy league,

you don't have to say the exact player. was a fantasy league you don't have to say the exact player but well you said you don't have james let's say let's take james out of it and you're replacing james with a different type of player because in beads had all these different teammates right and really jimmy i thought was the one that probably clicked with them the best and bead was bad in that toronto series but jim that type. Is it that type of guy you would want with Embiid? Yeah. You would want a guy. And I think James did a little bit of that.

Like James would speak up. And so you need that. You need, you need another alpha in the room. So if Joe is not doing something to call Joe on Joe, you got to do this and Joe will listen to that. You know, What about offensively, though? What is the offensive fit? If I could pick the perfect guy without a name,

it would be a big point guard who could score. Oh. Because, and the reason is, we need a playmaker other than Joel. And Maxie right now is more of a scorer. You know, he's a downhill scorer with speed. Maybe the – like, the dude brings joy to every coach in the room. Like, you would love Tyrese Maxie. Just every day being Tyrese Maxie.

But when we can free him up to just go score, you can make a case like a Ginobili. Oh, interesting. Who at times was their point, you know, with his passing, gave them toughness, was an attacker, was great off the ball. But that allowed Tony Parker to just go and be free. Like someone in that category would be the perfect fit. So like a glue guy, playmaker.

All right. Yeah. So you're taking the year off. Is that official? Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm not doing, uh,

this is the first time in, I don't know how many years, 22, 23 years, uh, that I haven't started a season in training camp, coaching a team. Um, and I'm just going to season in training camp coaching a team.

And I'm just going to sit back and do a little podcast and TVs and enjoy myself if I can. I don't know if I can get through it. Like, Bill, I've never done it. I haven't done it in a long time. I don't know if it'll drive me crazy. But I plan on going to a bunch of football practices because I love football. I think football is so much more advanced than us because they have to coach so many more people. I'm going to go down to Alabama, spend some time with Nick Saban.

I'm going to go to back to new England and hang out with my man, Bill, you know, and I'm going to go to Kansas city as well, football wise. And then I'm going to go to a lot of basketball practices and just sit back and watch. It's funny with me. It's always, I always, I only time I go to an NBA practice with someone, if the coach has to feel, I want to make sure he's safe and feel secure. Cause the last thing I wanted to start crap, if you know what I mean? So, yeah, no, I got you. Well, I well i mean you're like you're one of the deans of all the coaches i i think one of the things people maybe the general public doesn't know is like for the other coaches you're one of the guys you're you're like a godfather with coaches i love it um

i don't i don't love if i know how many but i love just coaches call a lot and and we we i love sharing and i love talking. You know who taught me that was Larry Brown. I remember Larry Brown used to have all these coaching clinics. And I remember asking him, Coach, why are you having these clinics with these guys in the league? Why are you trying to beat these guys? And I was a player. And he says, Doc, first of all, you learn as much as you give.

You'd be amazed at how much you're teaching and you end up learning just as much just from being around these guys. Everyone has their own individual brain and you pick from everybody. And that happens all the time for me. So we never stop learning. That's what I'm going to do. So you're hanging out with Belichick? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Is he your guy? I don't think I knew this no bill's a great guy like um you know we don't hang out but i do go i go around them and um he's different than that's everybody says yeah is it the private bill belichick a completely different guy completely different guy. Fun guy. Crazy swag, you know, which is so funny to me. I remember when I was coaching the Celtics, we'd go to it. They were playing the Houston, whatever the football team is, and they were undefeated.

Houston was undefeated. And Bill walks out, and I'm standing with a couple of my buddies from Boston, Patrick Lyons and a couple of other guys, and we're just sitting there and Bill walks, we're on the field. I didn't like going on the field because I'm like, this is your job. Like, and Bill was like, no, make sure you come on the field, bring your buddies. And we walk over and Bill walks over to us and said, we're about to kick this team's ass.

And the way he said it, you know, like it was so it was like gangster you know it was great i loved it i was like that's that it was so awesome to see that you know so what what kind of golf are you capable of over the next 12 months oh i'm gonna play a lot but bill i'm terrible so i'm getting worse at golf now that i have more time, which is interesting. We'll see. I love it. I love the game because every day it's a different game and it's you against you. I always say that in basketball, if I'm playing well,

then great, but if I'm playing poorly, I can make the guy on the other team play poorly too. I can foul him. I can guard him. Like Miami tonight. Like Miami tonight. That's exactly what they did. In golf, you're all on your own. And there's nothing you can do about the other guy.

And that's tough. I wish I had a golf when I was a player. I think it would have helped me better as a player. I really do. I think it definitely teaches you patience. And it teaches you how to focus. I think that's why Steph plays it. And I think that's why a lot of NBA players are playing it now.

Well, can I be your media manager for three seconds? Yes. I definitely 100% want you to do TV because I thought you were one of the best game people ever. You only did it for a couple years, but you were absolutely great at it. Certain guys just get it. So I would much rather you did games than studio. I know games are more travel.

More travel is more golf course, though. Then, look, your daughter's working for us. Your son's working for us. We have two Rivers family members on the pods. I don't know. If you're thinking pod, I think you have to think about us.

That's a deal on the pod, for sure. You have to think about it. We'll talk about it, for sure. And then, yes, on games. I love doing games. Good. Studio's tough, man. It's not as fun.

Games, you're still in the fray. You're kind of in the fray, and I like being in the fray. Well, the last thing I'll say, and then we'll go. I really want to get your son-in-law, Seth Curry, married to our friend, Callie. I'd like to get him on a team that uses him correctly. I think you should make that your summer project. Even like us, like the Sixers. Like how the Sixers, how he used to play off Embiid, and it was wonderful.

It was awesome. I would love to see him on Jokic for a year. That's my NBA summer dream. Like, can you imagine? Talk about winning the lottery. That would be the greatest for everybody. Oh, gosh. If you put Seth on a team that moves the ball and passes with the way he shoots,

you know, Dale still says that Seth is the best shooter in the house. That's crazy. And I was like, that's absurd. But sitting still. Now, Seth, obviously, on movement. But I tell you, Seth is one of the great shooters in our league. And if he goes to the right team where they move the ball, good luck guarding him. All right.

We'll work on it. We'll work on some teams. Doc, it was great to see you. Thanks for staying up late with us. I appreciate it. Oh, thanks. This is a ball. Appreciate it, Bill.

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks again to Doc Rivers. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Isaiah Blakely. I will be back on this podcast on Thursday with Nephew Kyle, back to producing. And you can check out the rewatchables on Tuesday night. Me and Chris Ryan

doing a Leo DiCaprio movie. There you go. Congratulations to the Nuggets and their fans. You did it. Great job. See you on Thursday. I don't have a few years with him. On the wayside, on the wayside, never on set.

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