The Bill Simmons Podcast - Draymond’s Still Got It, the AD Rollercoaster, the Giannis Clock, and a Rejuvenated Aaron Rodgers With Wosny Lambre and Peter Schrager

Episode Date: May 5, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Wosny Lambre to discuss the Warriors' Game 2 blowout win over the Lakers, Anthony Davis's fluctuating performance, Celtics-76ers, Knicks-Heat, the possibility of a sweep in Suns-Nuggets, the Bucks firing head coach Mike Budenholzer, and more (3:33). Then Bill is joined by NFL Network's Peter Schrager to talk NFL draft grades, Aaron Rodgers in New York, AFC East odds, NFC sleepers, and more (53:34). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Peter Schrager and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, a little basketball, a little football. It's all next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good.

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This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey. And it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays,

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podcast network on Sunday right after Succession episode 7 ends me and Sean Fantasy and Joanna Robinson will be breaking down that episode

we will put it right up finish Succession go right to our episode on the Prestige TV podcast Sean is also breaking down Barry with Bill Hader himself, the creator and star of Barry. That is on Sunday nights as well. So stay tuned for that. I have new rewatchables coming on Monday as well. Also should mention the town with Matt

Bellany has been doing some really good stuff about the writer's strike that's happening right now. So if you're interested in that topic, go check out Bellany, go check out The Town, one of our finest podcasts. Coming up on this podcast, Big Waz, Wazney Lambre, comes on to talk about Warriors-Lakers game two, where we stand in round two with all four series,

and then the Bucs firing coach, Mike Budenholzer, because that happened. So we talked about that. And then the Bucs firing coach, Mike Budenholzer, because that happened. So we talked about that. And then my old friend, Peter Schrager from the NFL Network, haven't had him on since Super Bowl week. We had to catch up on Rodgers and the Jets, all the NFL draft stuff,

just kind of the belated last second thoughts a week after the draft. And then we went through some F some Fando odds for a conference and divisions, some, some really interesting trends for, I guess, who the public thinks should be favored in some of these divisions. And even in the conference that just did not add up for us. So this is a great one. Basketball, football, my two favorite sports.

Although I got to say baseball starting to suck me back. I swore I wasn't going to get attached to this Red Sox team, but I don't know if you've noticed Yoshida, who has been unbelievable. And I don't know, this team can hit. They beat Toronto today. It's kind of more fun of a Red Sox team than I expected. Anyway, I've enjoyed that.

I've also enjoyed my son's first lacrosse season. His team, Harvard-Westlake, just won a round two playoff game. And they are continuing in the Division II lacrosse playoffs. This lacrosse thing has been unbelievable for me. A sport that I never put one ounce of thought into. And now I genuinely enjoy watching. I'm in on lacrosse. Make me your spokesman, lacrosse. Just put me at the forefront. Let me be your evangelist. It's a great sport. It's like violent soccer crossed with hockey. It's like if soccer and hockey had a kid and the kid was like Damien Omen.

That's lacrosse. It's great. My son loves it. Came home today. I was talking about how he almost got in a fight. It was great. Loves it. Gets to hit people.

He gets to just whack people with sticks. There's all this strategy that I don't totally understand. I'm in on lacrosse. Congratulations, lacrosse. You won me over. All right. Let's bring in Big Wise I don't totally understand. I'm in on lacrosse. Congratulations, lacrosse. You won me over. All right. Let's bring in Big Wise first, our friends from ProJab. All right, taping this part of the podcast, it is 8.22 Pacific time, garbage time of Lakers Warriors.

This is happening right now. I said to Waz, should we wait until it's garbage time? And Waz texted back, it is garbage time. Tristan Thompson is playing. It's just true. It's just true. He's not a rotational guy. He's one of their best bench congratulations,

cheerleader guys. He's a hall of famer at that, but he is not a functioning member of the team, no. It's probably a bad sign when they're playing somebody in game two that you have probably seen at clubs in the last six No. It's probably a bad sign when they're playing somebody in game two that you have probably seen at clubs in the last six months. I have. During NBA games. Let's talk about, so the Warriors win. Not a surprise. I thought the Warriors were going to win tonight.

I thought the Lakers got the game they needed to get there in this Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Monday, four games, seven days, right? And it felt like a game. Somebody was going to ease back. I thought that somebody was going to be LeBron James. It turned out to be Anthony Davis. We'll talk about him in a second. What was cool about this game for me as a basketball fan, 97th playoff win for the Draymond, Clay, Curry threesome. And it was the best pieces of all three of them. And we'll go in order. Draymond, just an awesome, awesome Draymond game. And the kind of game, like when we get to the summer, if he decides not to pick up his option, this is the

game you send to the teams that have free agent agent the cap space you're like hey by the way this guy's fucking awesome here's a playoff game where he is the best guy on the court uh what'd you see from draymond yeah he was just incredible obviously he's their sort of emotional um fulcrum but there was one play that i thought um exemplified draymond's excellence i forget i think it was dennis Schroeder had the ball. And he's attacking a closeout or a scramble. And Draymond has his ass on Anthony Davis. So that nobody gets the crazy idea to throw him a lob for a dunk.

He stays there just long enough for Schroeder to get to the cup. And he blocks his shot at the rim it's like there's like two people who can do that in the whole NBA one of them being Anthony Davis on most nights anyway yeah on some nights and so you know that play to me just exemplified it the play where Anthony Davis sort of bobbles the ball on the low block and he dribbles it once and Draymond kind of strips him and it's a turnover and Draymond doesn't even run down the court he's just yelling at the crowd like this guy can't beat me one-on-one you know just a classic classic Draymond game yeah and again I want to save Davis for a little bit later but it was interesting

Looney we get the word basically an hour before the game that Looney's sick. He might not play at all. He might play limited minutes. And everybody's scrambling. Raheem Palmer, the ringer gambling show, completely outraged. Nobody takes it more personally, late injury news than Raheem. Just furious. And they played to Michael Green and they put Draymond on AD and AD stinks.

And it's like, on the one hand, AD, this is what he does. On the other hand, Draymond was kind of in his shirt the whole night and doing Draymond stuff to him. He also, he had 11 points, 11 rebounds, nine assists. It felt like triple W from the get-go with him. And with the Lakers, what they tried to do in game one with, with just limiting Curry being Curry and the Warriors in game two, I felt like they just took it. They're like, cool. All right, this is how you're going to play us. Then we'll do this. And all of a sudden Draymond and Curry are getting assists and Clay is the guy that benefited most. I love the adjustments they made in this game,

but you can do that when you have Draymond and Curry, I guess. Yeah. 100%. When it was 40 to 40 in the second quarter, I wrote it down. this game but you can do that when you have Draymond and Curry I guess yeah 100% um when it was 40 to 40 in the second quarter um I wrote it down I was like man the Warriors are playing desperately right now and this game is tied uh yeah not a great sign yeah a lot of that though was you know was buoyed by LeBron finally making some jump shots Rui Hachimura continues to be impossible to stop from hitting threes. Like, this guy is Reggie Miller all of a sudden. He hit 21 today. Yeah, and I was like, man, that's kind of,

that's tough if you're a Warriors fan right now watching this, because they clearly seem to be, it's not that they are, you know, the home team already down 0-1. They are the more desperate team. They're playing like it, and, you know, the home team already down 0-1. They are the more desperate team. They're playing like it. And, you know, they're not really seeing the results. And then that all flipped up. And I think really the Lakers defense just didn't show up to play this game. One of the indications, it's not just that Klay Thompson is making shots. It's that he's getting to take them

at all, right? Klay, he's not going to dribble past people. He's not going to create some incredible separation off of his jump shot or anything like that. So if teams are keyed in on him and they have athletes, they make it so that you're shutting off Klay's oxygen. He has to do all kinds of pump fakes and this

and all this. He has to use all of this guile to get his shots off. Today, he was just catch, shoot it. No hesitation. Nobody's in his shirt. He's right in perfect rhythm. And to me, that means the Lakers just weren't playing defense with enough force tonight.

Well, yeah, there's two reasons for that. One, they weren't playing as hard as they did game one. The other is that they were concentrating so much stuff toward Curry. And that's why this was such a good Draymond-Clay-Curry game, right? Clay was 8 for 11. And as you said, some of those shots were easy and the defense wasn't great, but he was hitting them. He was 8 for 11 from 3 a minute, 11 for 18 overall, he had 30.

But Curry, this was a classic. Curry finishes with 20, 12, and 4, right? He was 7 for 12, whatever. Like, you look at this on basketball reference 20 years from now, like, 12, and four, right? It was seven for 12, whatever. Like you look at this on basketball reference 20 years from now, like, ah, mediocre Curry game. All he did the whole game was draw the entire Lakers team toward him. It was like, this was like the Tyreek Hill

in the NFL type of thing where it's like, uh-oh, Tyreek's in motion. Now you got a cornerback and safety going over with him. And now like a whole side of the field's opening up. He just had the Lakers in such a tizzy because they just didn't want him to get going. And in the process, everyone else got going. But there was some interesting cuts they did at that. Vink, I did a good job of calling out one of the cuts when it seemed like he was going to come around the screen for a three. And then he called under for a little easy foul line jumper. I felt like the Warriors were really prepared. The announcers made a good point too. They put well in game one. You leave game

one, you're like, hey, we shot 53 threes and we made 40% of them. Davis just had a superhuman game and that's why we lost. So as I leave these first two games, I do feel like the Warriors are probably a whiff better, but I don't think that's going to mean they're going to win the series as I leave like these first two games, I do feel like the Warriors are probably, you know, a whiff better, but I don't think that's going to mean they're going to win the series was. Yeah. I mean,

I, I picked them to win in game seven. I don't think that they're like measurably better than the Lakers. I just think the difference in kind between what LeBron could do. So I'll give you an example, Bill. I don't watch the games on the regular broadcast. I watch it on NBA TV.

And when commercials come, a lot of times they'll just start showing random highlights. And what they did was show LeBron highlights from early in the season. I know it was early in the season because Westbrook was still on the team. And the way he's attacking and dunking on the rim and doing all that, I'm like, man, this looks like a completely different player from this same season. And so to me, because Steph can still get to superhuman ability on the ball, right, like where they take the ball out, give it to Steph, and he can do what he has to do in a way that you just can't ask

Anthony Davis to do even when he's engaged. And right now he's the best player on the team. To me, that's going to make all the difference, right? Like that Steph could just create what he needs to happen. And I have faith that he will. But the Lakers, you know, I think in game one, when AD was engaged, they showed they have what it takes to guard this team credibly. It's funny you mentioned LeBron, how he looks a little different.

What do you think his free throws are for the playoffs right now? If you had to guess, how many free throws do you think he's shooting per game? Free throws per game? Yeah, free throw attempts per game. Between four and five. Yeah, free throw attempts per game. Between four and five. Yeah, good call. So 5.2 in the Memphis series. He peaked with seven in two games. He had four free throws in game one.

He had zero today. Now, old school LeBron, in the right kind of playoff game, he's in the 10 to 12 kind of range. But he's usually going to be around eight, nine. But it speaks to more threes, more jump shots. Maybe he's not getting the same calls because he doesn't have the same explosive. So you don't have to foul him. There's a little subtle stuff with him, but to me, it's like, he's still LeBron. Like he's still banking in threes and, you know,

he's still cutting corners, but in the right way. He's still going to be a in the right way. He's still a problem. He's still going to be a problem for Golden State, right? And, you know, it's not as if they have all of these big bodies that they can throw on him. He's still playing wing for them in most of the lineups. And so if you end up with a Jordan Poole or a Klay Thompson or, God forbid, Stanford DiVincenzo on him for even a possession. Those are going to be fruitful possessions for the Lakers at every single turn.

And he's going to find the advantages and press them when he's supposed to. But, you know, the idea that when Golden State is locked in and they have the people that they actually want on him, that he can just beat them anyway. I don't think so, right? Like, I don't think there's going to be, you know, say 2016 where Festus Zivzeli gets switched on to him. A pretty athletic big at the three-point line.

He just blows right past them and one dunk on his head. I don't know that we're going to see many of those in this series. It's going to be on these other guys to take advantage of their matchups because I think there are, there's money to be made, right? When Austin Reeves is facing against, say, I don't know, Jordan Poole, one of the worst defenders in the whole series. Like there's money to be made. When Steph is guarding one of these guys, D'Lo or Austin Reeves, they don't want to switch those pick and rolls. So guarding AD, the best to me, the best screen and roll player in the NBA conventionally is going to be tough. Like they're still going to have ways to attack this

team, but they can't just cool guy their way through a defensive game the way they tried to today just because they had a game bank. You knew they were going to play like that. They got their game. They got the game Saturday. Their home Saturday. Ben Gundy pointed out that Austin Reeves didn't look right. It wasn't just that he didn't play well. He just seemed like he had dead legs. I felt that watching it too. He only had 10 points in game one.

He sucked tonight. His last, I guess, really good playoff game you could say he had was the OT game, the game four, where he played 42 minutes. But I don't know, it's something to watch because today, he had 25 minutes and he was three for 11, seven points. They kind of got him out of there.

And then Vanderbilt was the other one where the Warriors, they decided in this game, like, all right, Vanderbilt, knock yourself out. We're not guarding you. On the flip side, the Lakers did that with Draymond, where they're like, well, we're not guarding you. And the Warriors did something interesting. They moved him closer because Davis was giving him so much space.

They moved him the foul line, basically. Did you notice that? So when he had the ball and he was initiating like the backdoor passes and little handoff stuff, he was closer to the basket, I guess so maybe he could get rebounds. But I thought that was interesting. I mean, the thing about Draymond that he has my ultimate respect, there was a few years after 2016, and even especially, well,

during the KD years it kind of didn't matter because there was no way to guard this cheat code of a team. But he added this wrinkle where he's like, okay, if you're not going to guard me, if you're going to say, oh, I'm going to live in the paint while Steph Curry's on the floor, I'm going to absolutely crush his guy on the screen and nobody's going to be there to guard this guy who is the best shooter in the NBA. So Draymond creates gravity for himself by just being like, all right, cool, you're not going to guard me. I'm going to go out and set bone-crushing screens

that free up two of the greatest shooters, probably top five shooters in the history of the sport. And so I think what AD did very well in game one is that he realized there was times where he had to step up a little bit. When Draymond is coming to give that screen, he has to step up, use his length, to still be able to, you know,

have his maybe one half a foot into the paint, be ready to dart into the paint to help on help side, but also give a good contest on Steph to make him at least think about firing that shot off of the screen. Today, he just, you know, he didn't have that. I'm almost ready to talk about him.

I have one more Draymond question. He's 33 years old, turns 34 next March. He can opt out of this. I think it's for like 27.5 million. He's a years old, turns 34 next March. He can opt out of this. I think it's for like 27.5 million. He's a player option. He can opt in. He could opt out and they could sign him to another new contract, a little like what they did with Wiggins.

Or he could just opt out and become a free agent. What number and how many years before your sphincter starts to tighten with the Draymond contract? You said 33? He turns 34 in March. As America knows, you're one of my co-hosts for the worst contracts draft, which is America's single favorite podcast gimmick right now. If I said three for 95, are you tightening at that point? Did that just make anything clench?

No, because the cap is going to spike. Once you get into the 35 range, you're talking about... Three for 110? What does that do? Does that make you jostle? Look, for context, people need five range. Like this is, you're talking about like, all right. So three for three for one 10. What does that do? Does that make you jostle?

Look for context, people need to understand the golden state warriors are the richest team in the sport. I know, but they changed all these rules now where they're at the clay and Curry Wiggins. Yeah. I mean,

it's going to be really hard to carry a big contract. I don't know. See that the problem with that bill is I don't know that other teams are going to be willing to give Draymond $36 million a hard to carry a big contract. I don't know. See, the problem with that, Bill, is I don't know that other teams are going to be willing to give Draymond $36 million a year to come play for them. You know, that would be, that's a crazy, crazy number. What about the Rockets hire Imei Adoka? Making noise about we're ready to be good right away.

Jake Fisher reported last week, like, they might even dangle Jalen Green if it's the right type of thing. They want to, they're basically this lottery pick and they're ready to be good. And I wonder like, could that be a Draymond team? Could they overpay him just for the veteran respect and the leadership and, you know, putting a face on stuff,

being the mentor for the young players, hopefully not punching them in the face. Yeah, Jake Fisher's my man, so I know if he's saying this, there's some credibility to it. And that's the thing too, though, right, Bill? If you have young players that you're trying to groom who might not necessarily have the confidence in what they do in the NBA. Maybe Draymond's not the guy.

I don't know if Draymond is the person to bring in. Come on, Jordan Poole's been fine this year other than 75% of the games. He's been so much worse. He's been okay. No, look, I think if you're somebody like, say, Portland, who, you know. They don't have cap space, so rule them out. That's been out there that Dame Lillard has been a fan of this guy and just watching, obviously, all the things that he so obviously does for Steph.

Defense always being something that Portland struggled with during the Dame years. I know that's somewhere. I guess, you know, sign and trade possibilities have to be part of it, right? And you wonder, the Warriors being, it would be up to them to tell Draymond, we don't want you here you would think they'd be like you know what let's help him get to his next thing and try to facilitate get some stuff for him why not because if he leaves i feel like it will be bitter it will not

be one of those yeah oh this is a friendly divorce and you're gonna see dad every saturday it's not gonna be like that at all it's's going to be like, wait a second. You guys have lawyers? What's going on? I just feel like this is either a breach and a divorce or they double down and they figure out he opts out. They give him a longer deal around the same money and something like that. The longer they go this season, I think will also kind of shape that too, right? That's what I was just about to say to you. If they somehow find a way to either get to the finals,

maybe repeat somehow or get to the finals or give Denver everything they can have and handle in the conference championship, say a seven-game series. How can Joe Lacob justify not bringing back Draymond Green? That seems like you don't get this. Before the game, I text somebody, and I was like, you know, it's so cool to me that Draymond, Clay, and Steph have been doing this for 10 years together now. Then I watched them in pregame warm-up.

It feels ritualistic. It's one of the only things in the NBA that feels ritual, this Warriors group. The idea that Joe Lacob lets this die, this special thing, you just let it die over money, I just can't fathom that, man. And I think they would be appreciably worse without Draymond. They're not stopping people without Draymond Green. Nope. It's not happening.

Well, you know what I noticed that they have their clinching Laker win. That would be their 100th playoff went together. And the only, only trios that have had more than that, the magic and Kareem and Cooper were one 10. And then the Duncan, you know, weovi parker 126 for those guys these guys are this generation yeah manu timmy and um uh tony and tony yeah yeah yeah 100 even with kerr being there for every single championship, every relevant playoff run.

Yeah, I don't know how you let this go. If these guys get to the brink of the NBA championship again. So right now, just to put a bow on this, I'm still leaning a tiny bit Warriors for this series. More because we haven't even had the LeBron AD pulling something Chris Paul type of old guy slash you're Anthony Davis and this is what you do kind of injury. So I would still lean toward the Warriors, especially because of the game seven. With that said, I think these game three and game four are going to be really hard spots. Crowd's going to be insane.

This will be a real atmosphere. There will be some Warriors fans, though. Yeah, of course. There will be a tiny bit of a mix. I know you've noticed the Laker flags. They're out. They're out. That's our news.

God bless them. They waited for the second round, but they're out. Warriors minus 142 for the series. All right, we're going to take a break and talk about Anthony Davis and Coach Bud and a couple of the other series really quick. FanDuel is the only sportsbook app where you can bet the Kentucky Derby. It is happening this Saturday.

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man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not

grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. All right. Anthony Davis, let's just do this quick because he had that incredible game one. Everybody went nuts. And our guy, Kendrick Perkins did the generational superstar thing. And then game two, Anthony Davis, not positive. He broke a sweat. It was unclear. 11.7 rebounds. I was thinking like, House thinks we should call him every other Anthony Davis

where it's just every other day. I almost was thinking like, when he's like he is today, you just flip the initials and he's DA. And this is like, oh, it's a DA game. It's not an AD game. Game one's AD. It's like, oh, it's a DA game. It's not an AD game. No, it's not an AD game.

Game one's AD. It's like, oh, we got DA today. It's like a Chris Cliff Paul thing. It's like the evil- You kind of know right away. His evil bearded twin, like an 80s movie gimmick. You know right away, because I went to that Memphis game four last week,

and you knew in the first six minutes. It's like, oh, you got DA today. You didn't get AD. And you just know. And that's it. I remember one time, and I can share this because I'm not betraying any confidences, but I remember talking to somebody sort of close

to the AD camp and situation. And I was complaining. I was like, you know, AD don't do enough media. You know, all my media stuff, right, Bill? He doesn't do enough media. He doesn't take the mantle seriously of representing the league as an ambassador and blah blah blah blah and all of this stuff just related to media and the person told me basically like he's not interested in that he wants to do his job and go home which to me to me ad like what i took that

as is ad wants to show up at nine, leave at five. He's not coming in early. He's not coming in late. He's going to do what is required of him and nothing more, which means he's going to try to do what it takes to win four games. Right. And nothing more. That's it. Unless you're in the bubble and there's nothing else to do.

You're in the bubble. It's like, well, I get to leave my hotel room. He's going to do the bare minimum. And luckily for him, he is all-time talent. His defensive performance in game one is something I will never forget. Everybody in Golden State scared as hell to shoot the ball near him. Him grabbing 23 rebounds after watching what Looney did to Sabonis, just abused him.

Child abuse all series. Like, to watch him do what he did in game one, to see what this man is capable of. And then you see today, there's just like, this guy. Well, I guess the difference between this and the bubble season is, I'm not sure especially with whatever the foot injury is that LeBron has right it's just you just can't get reliably the same kind of physicality there was some stuff in today where they posted him up a couple times

and you got the 2018 flashbacks of like oh yeah he could just overpower people I just don't know if he wants to put those kind of miles on it legs. So it just feels like if they win this series, it's what you said, four incredible Davis games, and they probably have to go four and O in those games. Maybe they'll get the one game where it's like a little like the Rui Hachimura game today, combined with D'Lo also has five threes in the same game. They could get a fluke world player game, but for the most part, Davis is going to be the one that determines it. Couple more quick things before we move on

in another series. There was a Jermichael Green sighting today. He made a couple threes. I gave up on him three years ago as a viable rotation guy. I don't know if it was a fluke or not, but it was one of those things. Like if you had a Warriors minus six and

a half bet, like maybe I did hypothetically and you get the news loonies out and it's like, they're starting to Michael green. Wasn't a great feeling was, but he was actually pretty good. Except for the four alley-oops that he missed time jumped. I'll say, I'll say I lived through the 1920 season where every single person affiliated with the Clippers were telling people that Jermichael Green was going to unlock some championship lineup. Wait, you said 1920, which did he play in 1920? You meant 2020, right? Because he also might have played in 1920. Well, that's the thing.

It's been that long. Like, people have been thinking Memphis thought that he was going to unlock some stretch lineup. Like, everybody, Clippers, everybody going through this. I will say this. In the relevant portions of this game, I had no faith that he was going to make big open shots. And he bricked some in the first half.

And he made a couple of them. In the second half, he got busy, and we'll give him credit for that. But if this thing gets to tense game sixes and game sevens, I'm not confident that that guy's going to make huge buckets

for the Golden State Warriors. I would agree. It's funny. There's a certain prototype of NBA player that the playoff teams love. And Rui Hachimor is another one. It's funny. There's a certain prototype of NBA player that the playoff teams love. And Rui Hachimor is another one. It's like these 6'8", kind of big-shouldered guys who can shoot threes. This is why Trey Lyles keeps moving around.

He's another one. He's the first man that came to my mind when you said this. That's why John Collins, when this contract ends, he'll end up on five other teams as people keep trying to, he's a better version of that. Obviously.

Um, last thing I had was just Moody became out of Moody, Kaminga and Wiseman who they traded. I would have said going into the season, Moody or like, I don't know, 15 months ago, it would have been like Moody was 10 to one odds to be the only guy who was

playing in a playoff series. I sold my Kaminga stock at halftime-wise. I finally gave up. I'm not willing to give up on a guy that size, that athletic, who plays with the kind of motor that he does. The guy plays hard, right?

That's rule number one for me. Somebody with that profile, physical profile, who plays as hard as regularly as he does so did Cabangeli on the G League Celtics team I thought he played really hard athletic at some point you are who you are

are you calling Kavani a G leaguer? no I'm just I'm frustrated I had a lot of stock I thought he could play in a playoff series when Kavani couldn't play just kind of expected to see him. I was somebody who was like, hey, man, against Sacramento. I'm like, why can't we throw out Kaminga out there?

I'm still holding on to Kaminga's type, but I think Moody just has a better IQ and feel for the game. And if you know anything about- And he's feisty. Yeah, he is. He is. He's a tough guy. If you know anything about Kerr, though,

he's always going to gravitate towards IQ beautiful game continuity stuff ahead of oh this guy's like he jumps out the gym or you know he runs past people Kerr's like I don't care about this athlete stuff run my shit and run it well and you will play he loved Andrew Bogut when Andrew Bogut had had the broken Rodney Dangerfield arm and was just limping around and Kurt's throwing him out there for 20 minutes a game. Alright, other series. Celtics killed Philly last night. Now that the Hawks have been

eliminated, there's no better up-20 team in the playoffs than the Celtics. They're up-20. They look fucking great. Everything's perfect. Grant Williams can't miss a three. It's amazing. Oh my god. It was interesting though. I did find myself excited that Embiid was coming back to play that game because I thought if Philly had a chance, it was going to be the same recipe of game one of just a lot of threes, Harden does stuff. They spread us out. We shoot 58%. I'm using we like I'm on the team.

We shoot 58%, but somehow they're hanging around. Embiid just slowed them down even more. He just like, he looked rusty to me. I thought it was a mistake to play him. I would have waited until game three. What'd you think about that decision? I think they treated it a lot like the Lakers treated this game, right? Yeah, they got their game. Yeah. It felt like they were treating this as a ramp-up game for Embiid. Look, if they really thought their season was on the line and Embiid's capable of playing, you're not doing this nonsense seven-minute spurt at a time regulating his minutes.

No, you're playing this guy, pedal to the metal, and you're going down with literally your MVP. The day before, he collected his award, right? And so I think they treated it as a ramp up game. I hope the crowd in Philly is up to the task of what would be before them in game three. Because I think the Celtics are going to, they understand the challenge. They tasted their own blood against a team that they know has the talent to beat them this is not a hawk situation where they don't have respect for these guys um and don't have and you know they don't have a player the level of joelle and bead right uh you see we saw it in the player

poll the athletic put out where the whole league thinks trey young is is overrated nobody thinks that about jojo and bead right right and so Right. And so they're going to come out, I think, accepting the task. And they're going to come out with their asses on fire. The Celtics did a lot of, we were pissed off. They'd say, all right, cool.

I hope so. Because you blew game one and it was some of the worst coaching and strategy stuff and shot making that we've had all season. They were pissed off. I went on group chat and berated James Harden, called him a loser, said that he had no business

with the lofty purge. He doesn't respect superstardom. Stefan LeBron would never fly to Vegas. Man had his best game of his life. He looked great. He looked like he had like a extra large Dunkin' Donuts coffee right before the game. It was just flying around, throwing some Red Bull. Knicks, Heat, I don't know.

I don't know. It's tough. I don't know. I don't even know if it's worth talking about. It's too weird. I don't know if Butler's healthy. I don't know if anyone has a home court advantage because I think either team, both teams are just mentally tough.

They're not going to be afraid playing in either place and it's going to be a weird series. I did have a question for you I wanted to bring up because I knew this was in your wheelhouse. I was saving this for you. I figured I might see you tonight. You know, the Heat-Knicks thing has really been romanticized. Right?

Where are you taking this? And I'm there too because I was like oh cool heat nicks like this was a fun little rivalry i just want to point out these were pretty terrible games in the moment for three straight years they were they were dramatic there were some dramatic endings but these were bad basketball games. They were rock fights. There was big muscle dudes on both teams. Even the fights, guys missed

basically all the punches. The LJ Alonzo Mourning fight is one of the worst fights in any sport. You guys couldn't really fight for real? I'm just saying, what was the good fight? We had two good Knicks fights. One, the punch stats were zero for Mourning and zero for LJ.

That was one of them. They're just swinging haymakers. Wasn't it against the heat that Charlie Ward flipped the guy? He flipped PJ Brown. That was pretty good, but that was more of a body slam. And then there was the, I think there was the Van Gundy one when he grabbed the leg. Yeah, Alonzo Mourning. I thought that was, PJ Brown was involved with the Charlie Ward. Alonzo Mourning was involved with

Jeff Van Gundy. We didn't have anything close to Doc Rivers Kevin Johnson with Charlie Ward in street clothes pouring gasoline on that. That was an NBA fight. I'm just saying those games weren't that good, but they were dramatic.

I think that's more important. And ask yourself this, Bill. Would you rather watch that Clipper game that went to 175 points in a playoff setting or, you know, that Allen Houston game? His game-winning bucket gave them 80 points for the game. When they went 80 to 79? Yeah. What a battle.

I think that's, I think the possession by possession struggle for life. Think about Game 7 2016 and how nobody at the end of that game can score for anything and the drama that that delivered. I think that's, I think that's fun. I think people like that, Bill. Don't denigrate

the great bridge history. I think people think they like that now. I think that's fun. I think people like that, Bill. Don't denigrate the great bridge history. I think people think they liked it now. I'm just saying as somebody who was living in Boston at the time who loved basketball. It was tough. It was kind of like, is this where the league's going? Because this would be really bad if this is just what the playoffs were like. Because even Nick's Pacers

as dramatic as those games were, those were also rock fights. Because people remember Reggie at 25 and they went, oh, and Reggie did this. And it's like, all right, go back and actually watch those games. I would feel relieved when either team finished in the 40s after a

first half. I was like, oh, okay. It's like actual basketball happening. But you know, ironically, the series that was really good was the Orlando, Indiana series. That series was fucking awesome. And had like one of the great games when each team, I think there were three game winners in 12 seconds in the same fourth quarter and then Smiths won it.

But that series was actually good. You know, the Knicks, I think it was partly because the Knicks haven't had a lot of laughs since basically 2000. So then the Knicks, I think it was partly because the Knicks haven't had a lot of laughs since basically 2000. So then the Knicks heat stuff got romanticized. But at the same time, it was a rivalry and it is fun to have it back. So I'm not downing it. The Pat Riley part of it was huge. That was a big deal the way he left the Knicks.

There was animosity. That's what we love. There was like real animosity on both sides. So that's fun to have that back. It was huge. And these guys, and you know, Jeff, like, so you could never imagine the Celtics coach saying the kinds of things in public that Jeff Van Gundy and Pat Riley would say routinely about the opponent.

Right. Right. Like it's, it's just not happening you know like doc rivers he's kind of a little bit old school so he comes from a school of like saying stuff in the press obviously we know phil jackson just denigrating an entire region of the state and you know like they would do that kind of thing in those days we don't have that now like everybody's pretty pc and knows, let's not make headlines. Let's move on with our day.

Let's do what we do. But back then, they were really trading barbs and actually fighting. The games were physical. So I understand why people look at it in a favorable light. I understand why you're doing the Boston thing of this New York thing is overrated.

I thought Nick's Bulls in 92, 93, 94, three in a row, those series were fucking awesome. I love those series. I just thought Nick's Heat from an actual, but it had more to do with the fact that the league was just kind of in rough shape

from a talent standpoint. I think what you're saying is that Vashon Leonard just didn't light a fire. Charlie Ward played like 30 minutes a game one of those years. Would Charlie Ward play in a playoff series right now? It's doubtful. Yeah. Chris Childs?

Chris Childs, missing piece. Bakersfield's finest. He's like a backup. Yeah, so to me, that's just, here's my expert analysis of Nick's Heat. It comes down to Brunson and Butler and who's going to be the best player in the series. And whoever it is, that'll be who wins the series. I really think it's that simple.

Denver, Phoenix. Phoenix is in a really interesting spot here where, you know, I had the owner, Matt Ishby, on the podcast on Tuesday. And I've heard other people from Phoenix say this about that trade wasn't about this year. It was getting Kevin and Booker together. It's like, it kind of maybe should have also been about this year because you have two of the best 10 guys in the league. I still don't know why they didn't try to keep Cam Johnson in that trade, but if they lose game three, I think this could actually has sweet potential. So this is like, if you're just talking about biggest must win of round two that only in the series, but left in the playoffs. And I just have real concern for Phoenix. Chris Paul's out. Got a lot of campaign. There's going to be some Shamit. There's

going to be some Kogi. There's going to be a lot of Torrey Craig. There's going to be a lot of, can DeAndre Aiton do more? I don't like this spot at all. You can give Booker and KD, let's give them 70 right now. Do they win the game? I have a hard time seeing the route for these guys. If Denver plays up to their capabilities on both ends of the floor, which is what they've done the first two games. Even, they had an awful offensive night in game two,

but like Murray missed his first nine threes, at least six or seven of those were rhythm open threes. He makes four of those three of those. It's not even a close game. It's a blowout, right? Not just the win. And so they're going to, they have their hands full on defense. They can't stop the nuggets.

That's just not going to happen. And then, you know, I'm not sure anybody's going to be able to stop the nuggetsuggets. That's just not going to happen. And then, you know... By the way, I'm not sure anybody's going to be able to stop the Nuggets in these playoffs. It's too easy for them to get good shots time and time again because of Joker. I love all the shots they get. You never see like, oh man, they didn't get a good shot that time. They always

get a good shot. Yeah, I think in a series against the Nuggets, you just count on outscoring them. That's just... You count on exploiting the weakness at the center position defensively, and you figure you can get incredible shots every time down the floor because you are dissecting their defense. I think, you know, Booker...

It's not going to be this Phoenix team. No, hell no. Booker has played point guard in the past, right? But the problem with that, because him and KD are the two best shooters on the team when he's on the ball, that means one of the best shooters is not spacing. That condenses the floor. That makes trying to operate in the pick and roll like they're just going to be gumming up the works for him in that. And then so what you're saying is, OK, he has to operate in isolation all game, every single game. And that's how they're going to find a way to win this series.

Like, it doesn't make sense. Playing again, playing 45 minutes a night like they're running out of answers. They had to get good offense out of what Chris Paul and DeAndre Aiton could do and pick and roll. And before Chris Paul got hurt, there was like some moments where he you know he found his rhythm he does the thing where he throws it all the way out and he gears up and he shoots this fadeaway moonshot yeah and those are the best shots this guy could generate in that and sometimes he gets hot and they're falling but like that's the best offense they can generate outside of KD and Devin Booker going superhuman as one-on-one scores. That's not a healthy offense. And I think even with a healthy Chris Paul, they were getting their butts handed to them this series. Now that he's out, they're going to reevaluate after a week.

So at least two games without Chris Paul. And he wasn't even playing that great to begin with. I want to know what happens if they just play Durant at center. I want to see that for six minutes because you put Durant with Booker and just put three shooters out there with him, and I don't even care who the three shooters are. I'm sure they have three in the roster. Or Shamik can pretend to be a shooter.

And just make Jokic guard somebody. And he's not going to be able shooter. And who, I just, make Jokic guard somebody. And he's not going to be able to guard Durant, right? So, there's ways to flip this. I just think, I think they're in a really rough spot. All right,

last thing before we go, Coach Bud got fired today. I broke the news to you. You did not notice before the game. I did not notice. I figured this was going to happen. They did the classic hour before a

huge Warriors-Lakers game too where they kind of snuck it out there an hour and a half before or whatever. Here's my take. Tell me if you agree. The clock is on now with Giannis. Two more years. Player option. The

year after, you got to get a high profile coach. You got to figure out what this window is, but you're also trying to impress him. And they have, you know, they traded a bunch of first round picks with that true holiday thing. They have no second round picks left because they traded for the corpse of Jay Crowder.

And I don't really know what their moves are unless they, I guess, Middleton opts in and then they try to shop them around. But I don't know who wants Chris Middleton at $43 million. So the move would be, hey, we have this new coach. We have a new imagination. We're reinvigorated. A lot of people are throwing Nick Nurse around for this. I don't know. I don't see it. I don't know. To me, this feels very Frank Vogeli. I think Vogeli... Won the title in 20.

Yeah. He's a good coach, really good defensive principles, different voice. That was the one that jumped to mind. Anybody else you were thinking? Nobody immediately. I think...

I don't know if it's a matter of offensive creativity. I think Bud was pretty creative on offense. I think some of this stuff is, a new voice is going to be able to come in there and tell Giannis, we don't need pull-up 19-footers ever again from you, right? Like, you're one of the most devastating pick-and-roll players in the league. When you are setting the screen and rolling hard and finishing, you're one of the most devastating finishers we've ever seen. You routinely shoot in the 70% from the paint every year.

We'd like to see you add a 14-footer wide open, be able to make that, of course. But this idea that you you walking into threes and long twos and all of that right you're 28 years old you've been in the league since 2013 yeah i think they they need a new voice in there i don't think bud could come in there and tell you honest like yo cut all of the fat out yeah i have a new idea yeah new idea. Try this. Wasn't going to work. And I think some of the defensively, you know, Vogel was very instrumental. And I know you guys discount the 2020 Laker championship, but all year they had the best defense in the league. What's with you guys? Who was I lumped into there?

Just, you know, people that hate the Lakers. If I can find an asterisk with the Lakers, I'm going to grab it. I know this. Um, I think Vogel is a very great defensive coach. I think their defense can use some tweaking, even though they were the best defense in the league. We've, I think people can now get hip to the idea that regular season defense is not the same as playoff defense. What it takes to win in the playoffs is so much more nuanced and advanced than just saying,

Brooke Lopez, plant your big ass in the paint and never move again. You can't do that in the playoffs. Teams are going to exploit that kind of thing. And I think they got caught out there with that. A lack of variation in what they were doing. And a new coach could do that. But Vogel, I like that idea as much as anything because he's not a sort of rah-rah guy.

Vogel will never be in a press conference killing his players the way Nick Nurse did all season long, right? I don't think you could come into a group that's won championships. I mean, excuse me, won championship and start sort of throwing your weight around. I think he's a sort of easygoing guy

and he has the proven track record to coach the hell out of a defense. Turn the prediction camera on Kyle. I'm just going to, going to just throw this at her. It's something Woj said in the pregame show because he, they did the coach bud thing. And I don't know why he said this, and I thought it was really curious, and there was no follow-up question from Malika Andrews. So I'll have the follow-up question now. For some reason, near the end of his report, he said, something like,

I think you're going to see the Bucs be really patient, and I think there's a possibility one of the people they're considering is coaching in the playoffs right now. And everybody's on the table. And I'm thinking like, well, wait, there's only eight people coaching in the playoffs right now. So does that mean an assistant? Or does that mean a head coach?

Like, are they going to hire somebody else's assistant to replace Coach Bud? Sounds a little unlikely. So then I went through all the teams. Joe Mazzulla? I doubt they're waiting to see what happens with Joe Mazzulla.

Let's cross him off. Steve Kerr? No. He's not going to go from Golden State to Milwaukee. Darvenham just got to the Lakers.

He has a contract. He's a Milwaukee alum though. He's a buddy alum. I know, but the Lakers aren't going to get rid of Darvenham. That's nuts. He has a contract. He's a Milwaukee alum though. The Lakers aren't going to get rid of Darvin Ham. That's nuts. Makes no sense. Mike Malone and the Nuggets. They're probably going to make the finals

and they're the favorites to win in my mind right now. Is that a Nuggets or cheap thing? Because their executive got poached a year and some things ago. He can't be crossed off. I'm going to do like the Logan Roy. I half crossed him off but half underlined him. Monte Williams. Was that because he got fired?

So that would be Ishby at New Owner Syndrome. I can't believe we got swept by Denver. Monte Williams is out. I'm bringing him my own guy. I don't see that one either. Tibbs though. Eric Spolster's never leaving Miami no shot he's just going to take Pat Rowley's job Glenn Doc Rivers

went to Marquette odds are they probably lose the series big veteran voice big veteran voice big veteran voice wants to win one last coach one last title as a coach good person to put in front I don't know

if he meant a head coach that was where my mind went I was like oh shit Doc Rivers is that possible? Also, there's been so many murmurs and rumors about people not really into him in Philly. On the player's side. I mean, whatever.

Who knows what Darryl's up to these days, right? However, there was, especially last season, there was a lot of turmoil around that situation in Philly that at times felt toxic. They, offseason, they brought him back. It was sort of kumbaya. They had a really great season and Bede's winning MVP. So, you know, people have sort of forgotten that,

but there was a lot of smoke around Doc Rivers last year. So the idea that he would move on, I think you, I think you might be on to something. Or it might be a lead assistant. I don't know. But I thought it was, I thought it was peculiar that that was, it was like he wanted to get that one out there. Um, so there you go. Maybe Doc Rivers. Um, okay, okay Was this was fun as always I look forward to getting you when are you doing the next Ringer NBA show Sunday? We're doing that Saturday night so that'll be up for you guys oh after game three after game three that'll be up for you guys

Sunday morning or snap cracking early so yeah after the games on Saturday we're recording directly after instant Reacts, all of that great stuff that the ring NBA is known for. All right. Thanks, Waz. Good to see you. Peace, y'all. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember.

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That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit mx.ca slash businessplatinum. All right, our old friend Peter Schrager is here. We did not do our pre-draft podcast. We're going to do a little post-draft podcast. A lot of good storylines coming out of it. Just in general, awesome NFL offseason.

So good. Really especially fun. It feels like the NFL feels a little more relevant than usual during this time when everything else seems to be out. Even seeing Rodgers at the Knicks playoff games, it's like just football, football. Lamar, he resigns. All these teams that have hope. The NFC feels wide open. All the great quarterbacks in the AFC. We don't have a lot of just, I'm already ready for football and we're like five months away. No, it's great. It's a good thing when I work on Good Morning Football and it's the first week of May. And we're like, well, Rodgers was settled. Lamar was settled.

Jalen Hurts was settled. What do you want? Should we talk about Saquon's contract? Like you want that. That means that there's not this crazy lingering drama. There's stuff that's good and settled. And we're going into the off season where I think every fan base is feeling good about their team. And I think a lot of these teams- Every fan base? I think every fan base, even- Would you feel good if you're Houston right now? I don't know.

Everything you gave up for that Will Anderson pick, I'm still trying to figure out what happened that night. I think, I mean, I believe that it was one of those deals where they needed a quarterback. They had to, so they get Stroud. And then with Arizona putting that thing up for sale, at first I thought it was going to be like for 60 cents on the dollar. But Houston needed to move up and get their guy because they felt like this is the year they had to at least put these cornerstone pieces in. They got two great kids. To your point, they gave away a lot. But I don't get caught up in the minutiae of like

what they gave up until we see how this thing washes out if Will Anderson's a 10-year starter and the Texans are relevant next year and they could put people in the building and their defenses improve like no one's going to be saying I can't believe they gave up so much for Will Anderson if they stink and that ends up being the pick for May or for Wilson. Well, then, yeah, it's going to be a story that lingers forever. You just threw two ifs with the Will Anderson trade, which is why it was a terrible trade. This is where, as usual, the VP of common sense could have stepped in. They clearly had the owner wanted the QB and the management wanted Will Anderson. And this was the compromise.

Well, what if we trade up? It's just that's a great, like my friend Lombardi was making the case. I know if you look at it, what they traded for Arizona was really for CJ Stroud because the team wanted Will Anderson. It's like, no, I'm not, I'm actually not going to look at it that way

because they could have taken CJ Stroud at two. And then they traded all that. They traded 1233 and the 24 first and third to Arizona. And the other thing is we do this in the NBA. Like why can't you top five protect the 24 first? Like Houston's not going to be good. Newsflash. Guess who's not going to be good next year?

The Houston Texans. So that's the seventh pick in the draft. The fourth pick in the draft for Will Anderson, who we don't even, you just said, if he turns out to be an awesome 10 year starter, it's like, we don't know for a fact that he's going to turn into really anything. And he's not the physical presence of Bosa or a Miles Garrett or a Jadavion Clowney even. Right. So, so Miles Garrett, would you have traded that for? I would say we would even,

even during the draft, we would have said like, okay, I get it. Miles Garrett, sure thing. This guy's not a sure thing. I know. Look, I think it's very specific to that team. They have been so irrelevant the last two years. So off the... And then you get Will Anderson as like, D'Amico's guy, Alabama. Here's our

cornerstone on defense. And if D'Amico wanted Will Anderson all along and the owner wanted Stroud or if the general manager wanted Stroud, okay, we have to field a football team. We have been the 32nd team in the NFL for however long. This is fielding a football team and we needed it for 2023. A lot of teams might've said, all right, we're not in such desperate need for that defensive player. Texans were. They don't sell jerseys. They don't have any buzz, no relevance. At least the fan base

right now is excited and they can go on and say we got a cornerstone on offense and a cornerstone on defense. You can make the case for their franchise that trade made sense.

Can I give you a theory knowing nothing? As you know, I don't really have any NFL sources. They hired D'Amico Ryans. Okay. The, what, a five-year deal, six-year deal,

something like that? Like, here you're in. You're a coach. Am I going to have input in the draft? You are. Because I really want to get a defensive guy in the draft. Okay, we'll do that. Then the draft gets closer and the owner's like,

wait, we're not taking quarterback? Nah, we're going to take Will Anderson. I want a fucking quarterback. Well, but we're going to take Will Anderson. We promised. Well, I need a quarterback. You can also get Will Anderson. And that's how you end up with Arizona. One of the dumbest teams of the last 10 years stumbling into this incredible draft hall based on what seems to be confusion behind the scenes with Houston. That would not make me feel good if I'm a Houston fan. Every step along the way, it looked like Arizona was bumbling into this draft. A,

everyone in the league knew they wanted to trade the number three overall pick. There was a Schefter report that was accurate. The Schefter was like, there are six teams calling. Well, then that's just a billboard to everybody. Who wants this pick? So around the league, the thought was this pick is going to go for 60 cents on the dollar. Then there was a report that Paris Johnson was number one, and they would take him at third overall. So now we identified which position. So you lose leverage on that one.

Then as the draft is starting, it turns out that they have to swap their third round pick because of tampering charges over Jonathan Gannon, the head coach that the GM, Monty Ossiford, was calling him the week of the Super Bowl, which is, you know, that's a first for me that it was settled between the two teams. And that's a major L. And then they pull off this trade. They still get Paris Johnson. They do well. They get the tight end in the next round. Like the Cardinals come out looking great on this one. And Houston, everyone's scratching their heads about the compensation. But the night of, you're like, Houston got two of the top four players in this draft. They can come away with that. And whether this draft is a bad draft or this draft's quarterbacks aren't what they are

next year, let's see. Let's see. If CJ Stroud comes out there and he's really good for them, and they've got a quarterback for 15 years, and Will Anderson is really good for them, and Will Anderson's making plays and is a solid defensive cornerstone, you're not going to knock this draft for Houston. You're going to say they got two pieces in the same draft, and wow, what a good job they did. I'm betting on to knock this draft for Houston. You're going to say they got two pieces in the same draft and wow, what a good job they did. I'm betting on me knocking this draft for Houston. Here's the other trade that as time passed, made no sense to me. And Jameer Gibbs, the trade takes them in 12. Everybody's like, oh my God, but what the hell? You can't take a running back that high. So everybody's litigated all that. Like what are the lions doing? Um, they traded back from six to 12 and they got 1234 and 168 Arizona got six and 81. Fine. Here's what I don't

understand. If you're Arizona and I know they wanted to tackle, I mean, if you're Detroit and, uh, whatever, Arizona wants to tackle, they want to move up, but you're Detroit and you're like, we're going to go running back. Really like this guy Gibbs. Well, why not just stay at six and take Bijan Robinson, who's like the best running back in the last five years. If you're like, we're going to spend our high first round on a running back, Bijan Robinson's right there.

So they end up, they basically trade Bijan Robinson and number 81 to get Gibbs 34, 168. I'd rather have Bijan Robinson 81. So what'd you hear about that? Yeah. So Gibbs, I was, and I was on every outlet I could possibly be on the week of the draft being like Gibbs is the hot name. Gibbs is the hot name. Cause I had a team in the top 15 who was like, if Gibbs is there, he's going there. So I'm thinking, wow, he's going to go 15th overall. I never in a million years thought he would go 12th. I also didn't think Bijan was going to Atlanta, even though there was all that buzz there. So at the end of the day, it's eight and 12. I go back to the 99 draft when everyone was Ricky Williams, Ricky Williams, and then the Colts took Edger and James

before him. There's a lot of different kids. It's what you're looking for in your offense. Remember, Detroit already has David Montgomery, who is your kind of pounding ground guy. And Gibbs is almost compared. Camaro was the comparison, which I feel like is too recent, too easy. Jamal Charles is the comparison I was getting in that he is the lightning fast, can do everything out of the backfield. That's not B. John Robinson. He's amazing. He's your three down back. But Gibbs is almost like a wide receiver in a lot of ways. So I believe Detroit might have had Gibbs valued even higher than B. John Robinson. I wouldn't say that on the record as far as like, this is what Brad Holmes, the GM has told me, but I could tell you they were doing flips and you saw the video of him pounding his thing. They were so excited to get Gibbs where they got him at 12. Cause I don't know if he was going to be around

at 16 or 18 where they had their next pick, which they took an inside linebacker. And again, I didn't see that coming. I don't think anyone saw that coming. But if you're building a team and you want to do it with toughness and then you're in the Chris Spielman mold and the Brad Campbell mold

or the Dan Campbell mold and what it is, an inside linebacker from Iowa who won the award for the inside linebacker from Iowa who won the, you know, the award for the best linebacker in the nation might be the guy to do it with. Or plan B could have been just bring Jamal Williams back. What did he sign for with the Saints? He signed for a lot less than he expected to sign. So, you know. Yeah, sign Jamal Williams and then just draft Christian Gonzalez at 12 and you kept your team together and got an awesome cornerback. Look,

it's always tough with the draft to be like, they should have done this. Especially for me, I barely know anything about college football, but there's common sense stuff that, man, if you're taking a running back at 12, you better be positive that guy's awesome. The other thing with Detroit,

with the NFC, they had a top five talented roster in the NFC, right had a top five talented roster in the NFC, right? Yep. If they just land the plane on these picks and nail it, I keep saying land the plane lately on a podcast. I like that. I got to get rid of that.

That's a good term. There's a team that you could have talked me into and made sense for Jalen Carter. Jalen Carter just like, fuck it. Let's roll the dice. Upside, whatever. There's some stuff in the past. By the way, I love one of my favorite talking heads things was the Jalen

Carter thing where he goes nine with the Eagles and everybody's going, listen, that is unbelievable value at nine. This guy might be the most talented in the draft. But there was some stuff and everybody felt like they had to mention the butt. Yeah. We knew the butt. Everyone agrees he might have been the most talented guy in the draft, dot, dot, dot. But, you know, there was some stuff and everybody felt like they had to mention the butt. Yeah.

We knew the butt. Everyone agrees he might have been the most talented guy in the draft. So if I'm Detroit and I'm loaded anyway, just take him at six. I feel like they had to do home run swing, not what they did. Okay.

So I think you say, all right, we're right there. We're at the cusp. Let's go knock it out of the park. At the cusp. What if Carter comes in and he's a in and he's a project and he's a turd and it's like, we got to deal with this all day long. We had the sixth

overall pick and now we're all invested in making sure that... And that's a what if. The Eagles, for them, it's like, we've got Fletcher Cox, we've got Brandon Graham, we've got the pieces. We've got obviously his college teammates and N'Kobi Dean is class valedictorian and he can work with them. And it was built for the Eagles. It made sense for the Eagles. You don't know. And a fan base that is rooted for some guys with baggage in the past. Sure, but they're also, come to Philadelphia and we'll make you the best version of yourselves. And that may, Detroit might've been saying, we're on the cusp. Let's get a guy that we know could contribute right away that we feel fits our culture, quote unquote, whatever it is. I think we look at the mock drafts and we look at what the media

says, and then we try to do the grades. And this is an age old thing. And it's like, well, he was projected to go here by Todd McShay or Daniel Jeremiah, and he went here. So that's a win. But the teams, they do the work. They built their boards. Jack Campbell was the number one inside linebacker in the draft. So if the Lions want to take him 18th overall instead of taking him 36th overall, and he starts 17 games next year, is that really a D plus grade on the draft grade because they took him at 16 or 18 or wherever they took him? Yeah, I didn't care about that as much. I look at with the draft, the way that free agency shakes out year after year, and you look at what people spend on positions and over and over again, who gets paid the most? Tackles.

Defensive end. Defensive rusher. Anybody. Edge rushers or people who can push the line and cornerbacks. Corners. Those are the three. Top corners. Yeah. Right. So if I have a top 20 pick and I have a fixed salary in the first round, that I'm basically, I get Jalen Carter. And if he turns out to be an awesome pass rusher

and a disruptive defensive force, and I'm getting him that. Get him for five years. And that is like just an amazing stroke of luck, right? Or Christian Gonzalez. If he turns out to be an absolute lockdown corner for the Pats, that's somebody that usually makes 80 million bucks in

the open market or 60 million or whatever, but I'm getting him in the rookie thing. Nobody is paying that much money for inside linebackers except for the fucking Ravens with the Roquan Smith contract. But for the most part, those are like them tight ends. That's another one where we got Gusecki for one year, 7 million or whatever that was. I would just, if I had a top 15, top, maybe I'm wrong, but top 15, top 18, I would just veer toward those marquee positions. And most of the teams do. And most of the teams do. That's why we get it. But like, you know, Kincaid was being talked about as a top 10, top 15 pick. To your point, he goes in the mid twenties. Everyone's like, well, it's such a deep tight end draft. There's going to be four that go in the first round. Well, just the opposite.

It's such a deep tight end draft. People are like, be four that go in the first round. Well, just the opposite. It's such a deep tight end draft. People are like, well, we can wait on Kincaid. We can wait on Mayer. Because if we don't get one, we'll get another one. The running back thing is interesting, though, because time and time again, the mistake of the running back position is the second contract,

that the teams go back to the well and say, yes, we're going to reward you, Todd Gurley. We're going to reward you. You go through the list. Ezekiel Elliott. We're going to reward you. You go through the list, Ezekiel Elliott. We're going to reward you. But a lot of times- You can't. You got to let him go. But you know what? You take Bijan Robinson, you get four years at a really good cost, and you run the wheels off him, and then you can assess it. It's a good value to do that also,

to say we're getting an A-plus blue chip talent. If you think Gibbs is going to get 250 carries and 80 catches next year, and you got him in the first round and you're paying them a rookie salary of a few million dollars, that's a win. So it's a philosophical thing. Yes, Pacheco goes in the seventh round and is running the ball in the Super Bowl. And that makes a lot of sense to not spend big on it. But then again, if you're getting Bijan Robinson and he's Marshall Falk or he's Edrin James and you got them and you get them for four years at that's Marshall Falk or he's Edrin James and you got him and you get him for four years at that price, well, then let's just run the wheels off him and we're going to get our value out of that. Or you just wait for like Damien Harris for one

year, 2 million bucks like Buffalo did. It just feels like, I feel like we have more talented running backs than ever. Like even Atlanta, they ended up taking Bijan Robinson. I love Tyler Algier. I love himier. I was good at running back with Algier and Patterson. This is the last position I would have wanted. There's probably real reasons that that team couldn't have taken Jalen Carter. I don't know. The city of Atlanta. Athens, Georgia is close. Sometimes it's better to be outside. Yeah. And he's from there, all that stuff. But like, uh, but yeah, I'd like, that's not a position I would have addressed for them. Um, who's drafted you love the most knowing that in five years you might look like an idiot because I love this draft and then it didn't work. But was there one,

like a lot of people love Seattle? Seattle's was great. A really good cornerback and a really good wide receiver and some stuff in the second round. I love the Pat's draft. I'm as happy with the Pat's draft as I've been in a long time. Are you okay with, with no, I mean, I know you get the wide receiver late, but are you okay with the waiting until the seventh round or wherever they got boot?

Are you okay with that? Waiting all that time to get an actual pass catcher? The boot tape pick made my whole weekend. I was, why do you love, I was flying. You knew who boot day was before he was. I did because of van length and LSU fan was touting him. He's wearing you knew who Boote was before he was selected. I did because of Van Lathan.

LSU fan was touting him. He's wearing the number seven. He was like, this guy's freaking talented. He's going to go in the sixth round, fifth round, whatever, but he's talented. I actually think they're okay at receiver because I like Taequann Thornton. I think the guys you would have been looking at

in the second or third round were kind of different versions of, of what they, what they already had. Gonzalez was a great value. I think, I mean, I was shocked.

He felt that. And I, I followed it and everyone said, he's going to be a top 10 guy. So he goes, just because of the way the draft fell. Um, I liked the kid from Sacramento state,

the safety who I was told, they love that kid, Jim Nagy, who runs the senior bowl. And I were talking and he was like, if he doesn't get injured at the senior, like this guy was, everyone loves this guy, and he didn't test. But now you get another safety.

Now, do you need a fourth safety? You guys have a lot of safeties, but it was best player available, and I think he's going to be fantastic. And they loaded up on the line. They took three offensive linemen, and you figure, let's see what we're hitting on those, one and a half. And then the punting, kicking, you know, and they have a specialist hitting on those one and a half. And then the punting kicking, you know,

they both of those, the punting was a disaster last year. I really liked the draft. And I also, it's interesting with the Pats too. And I don't know if this is the right or wrong way to do it, but they really value when they do the senior bowl or they coach one of these things. Like they definitely grab a couple of kids.

They see them in action for a week and they kind of it's like, oh, he feels a little patriotic. Let's grab him. If you watch those senior bowl practices and they usually run on NFL Network and it's just drills, you could see the coaches that are on the field watching and it's usually Vrabel and it's usually Mike

Tomlin and it's usually Belichick and it's no coincidence that when the draft comes along, you know, a hundred players from the senior ball are selected. Like all these guys are selected. It's because these coaches got to see them in person and got to meet with them in person. And I think the Patriots do a really good job of utilizing that pipeline. I think a team that did really well that I didn't see, and maybe I missed it on Monday and Tuesday, like getting the A plus grades. I thought the Pittsburgh Steelers did a really good job because they maneuvered the draft in a bit of a chessboard and like they wanted offensive tackle.

They knew the Jets likely were going to take offensive tackle. They moved in front of the Jets and get Broderick Jones. They, they put the trade, the second, the first overall pick, which is the chase Claypool. The first second round pick up for grabs, basically reports all day saying that the Steelers are taking calls for the 32nd pick. They actually keep it. They take Joey Porter Jr., who a lot of people had in the first round,

going in the second round. And he goes to Tomlin where obviously his dad was playing for as well. And then Keanu Benton is who they got in the second round at defensive lineman, very highly regarded. And they get Darnell Washington who had some injury red flags at tight end, but out of Georgia was like combine superstar. And where they got him, great. So Pittsburgh, Omar Khan is the new GM. His first real go at this thing, I thought they hit a home run. And I didn't see the same kind of adulation over their draft as Philly or I guess Seattle got because they had more picks up front. You know, there was some conspiracy stuff with the Pats trading back from 14 to 17. Whether Belichick

was just trying to fuck the Jets over. Yeah. Like, people really feel like Belichick does stuff like that. I read one piece. I can't remember who wrote it,

but somebody laid out a whole case for like, this trade made no sense. Why not just take them in? They basically got the 120th pick in the draft to go back three spots and risk that somebody might move up to 16 and after their guy got, I love that you have the 15th pick in the draft and you're not prepared for any scenario. You've been playing in

this draft for four months, right? You have all these different boards. How are you not prepared for like, well, what do we do if these three guys are off the board? Oh my God, we got 15 minutes left. They took the tackle. Oh, go get that backup list. It's just so funny to me that a team can be incompetent like that. Well, we never know what's true and what's not. The Jets, they told me,

like, you know, McDonald's the guy and all this stuff. So that's fine. But what I love is, and I'm on the broadcast on day two and day three, and we'll say the pick is in

and we'll go to the war room and undoubtedly every pick, clap the hand, pump face, pump fist, pout. There's got to be someone in that war room with his teeth clenched, his mouth clenched, clap the hand, pump fist, pout. There's got to be someone in that war room with his mouth clenched just being like, shit, they took our guy right before we were on the clock.

Like, what the hell? It sucks. But they're always over the moon. We got our guy. We did that. And with the Jets, you trade for Aaron Rodgers, your offensive line was riddled with injuries last year. Now you're getting Vera Tucker back, Becton's coming back. Gosh, it was the most glaring need was offensive tackle. And the last offensive tackle that was like considered worthy of the top 20 was on the board and the Steelers move up one pick before him to get them. And they also needed a tackle. I got to think there was some disappointment, but to a man, the Jets, now we got our guy, Iowa State, Will McDonald. We got our guy. Well, it's funny that they do that Rogers trade where they give up way too much. And a small part of that trade was just, oh, we flipped 13 and 15. It's like,

two spots, not important. It becomes really, really, really super important. I think, let's take a break. I want to talk to you because we, you and I haven't talked about the Rogers trade. Just had a couple of questions on that. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks.

Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trades move quietly. So you won't hear them coming.. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. All right, coming back. So the Rogers trade, and I've heard different theories, and we've even talked

on this podcast about it. I talked with Solak and Kelly about it last week, and I was just apoplectic that the Jets paid 100 cents for the dollar on Rogers, who had no other place to go. And the case for it was, look, we needed

a QB. Let's be done with it. We have to do this. We can't drag our feet any longer. This was the price and we couldn't fuck around. I get it, but I don't know what the, what was plan B for the Packers? Did they have one? Probably not.

They don't have an owner though. So there is no pressure in Green Bay to get this thing done and let's wrap this up. The Jets do have an owner and there was pressure of, hey, we know we're going to get them eventually. Let's get them before the draft. Let's be done with this and let's start getting this ball rolling. I would say, and I know you don't win Super Bowls in April and May, the amount, and again, this is talking to a Patriots fan who actually enjoys Super Bowl parades. This might not make any sense, but as silly as it sounds, the amount of positive vibes around the Jets right now, whether it be Rodgers and Sauce sitting courtside at the Knicks, whether it be Rodgers and Lazard do for the Green Bay the last year. And this is important for this Jets franchise. And it's this window now where they've got these guys on rookie contracts. They've got all these young players

and this guy comes in and he lifts them up. If it gets done in June or July and they're playing catch up and Hackett knows Rodgers, but Rodgers doesn't know all the other guys and we already missed the window of bringing in Randall Cobb and all these other players. It might be different. So for the Jets, yes, I've read a stat

that ticket sales and VIP suites are up 400%, whether that should matter or not, okay, whatever. To get it done was almost a priority that maybe not every other team in the buildings have. Whereas the Packers, they would have let this thing bleed on for as long as they get they were their heels were dug in and the jets knew that and it was let's make the trade let's be done with it and okay here's the swap wouldn't it made more sense to do it after the draft though yes probably but in doing

that you still have this lingering question for is it going to get done are we going to yes we knew he was eventually going to be here but the for the Jets, it was, let's rip the bandaid off. Let's get this thing started. And gosh, it's been amazing the last few weeks. And again, it's April and May. I get it. But for them to have him- It's not smart. I'm sorry. It's not smart. It's not a good way to do it. All right. So you go through an entire draft and it's still this lingering- It's like, oh, honeymoon phase. This is so great. It's like, okay, cool. Well, you gave up all of these assets and if you just staring contested the Packers, they would have blinked at some point because they had to. I don't know if they would have. They would have eventually and I'm talking whenever that contracts. just going to completely ruin our season. The Packers had more incentive to do the trade than the Jets did

because now they just gave Jordan Love an extension. They got real assets back for Rodgers. Even though they're going to get murdered by the seller cap for a year, at least they have a direction. If they didn't do the trade, Jesus. The Packers did great on this trade. They did great.

Unbelievable. They had to have been laughing like Dr. Evil compound laugh for like 10 minutes. But I would argue the Jets did great in this trade also by getting him in the building. And I know you're thinking, gosh, it lifts

all boats, that whole thing. Rogers comes in. There is juice right now. And he was at practice. And he knows Hackett's offense inside and out. He's working with all the guys and they're learning it in April and it's going to be May and it's going to be June. The longer you drag this thing on, the longer you can't kickstart this thing. You've got these lingering issues at quarterback, the players aren't all there, and they're like, oh, what's going on? And it's dead. And there's a clock every day on the New

York Post, when the hell is this thing getting done? And Mike Vaccaro's writing an article and Steve Serby is writing an article. Why can't the Jets get this done? It's done. They got their guy and yes, they swapped a bunch and we'll figure it out. But for two years, and that's the expectation at the very least, got Aaron freaking Rogers and he's in there and he's invested and he has a chip on his shoulder and he wants this thing to work. So to them, it's like, all right, so what? So we might've lost a little bit more than we could have gotten if we did this in June or July. Who gives a shit? We got Aaron Rodgers. As you know, I root for the content if it's not a Boston team. And this is just way better content for everybody. It's so much more fun. Even him at the games with that smug, happy look on his face.

I was there. I was there at Humble Brag. I was at the garden Tuesday night. And Bill, you would have loved the garden. It was alive. It was amazing. I also love who they seat where, because it's the slit. So it's Ryan Serhant from Million Dollar Listing, all right, who if you watch the guy, the silver haired guy, who's great looking dude, he does all like the real estate stuff in New York. Then it's Jerry Ferrara, aka Turtle from Entourage. Turtle from Entourage. Then it's Rodgers. Then it's Sauce. And then you got the scores table. And then a few rows over, it's Jessica Alba, Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle. And I'm wondering, I'm like, all right, so Rodgers got that.

What's the catbird seat? Like, where do you want to be placed? Fat Joe is a great spot. All the Knicks legends are there. So like Carmelo's got a good seat. But then I see Joe Torre's up a little bit. I'm like, all right, Joe Torrey's got the four world series rings, but I'm fascinated because sauce comes out the next day. And it's like, I didn't know who Jessica Alba was. And

I'm like, see, this is great content. And now Aaron Rodgers has to teach sauce gardener, 21 years old. Okay. Dark angel was a very big hit on the Fox network and that, you know, the pecking order of it all. And I just love it that New York's alive and all these celebrities are out there. And Rogers is kind of this like veteran guy, but the guys are 19 years younger than him. You know, he's 39. Sauce is 21. I was going to say, what are him and Sauce Gardner talking about over a hot dog? What do they have in common? No idea. Randall Cobb, please join me. He's like, he's like any 39 year old receivers out there that I can hang out with. Is there anyone who could still do it?

Is Julian Edelman? So you feel like Rogers has the buzz in the city now in a real way. Yeah. And he's playing the, he's playing the PR campaign perfectly. He's at the Rangers game. He's at the Knicks game. He's at Carbone. He's doing all the New York stuff.

And we eat that up in New York. Page six loves it. The post loves it. And all that stuff does not matter the second the football starts, doing all the New York stuff. And we eat that up in New York. Page Six loves it. The Post loves it. And all that stuff does not matter the second the football starts, but for Jets fans to feel positive and proud of their team during the off season, I think it goes a long way. Well, when was the last time the Jets had a face? Sanchez. That was the last time they had a face. And I remember Sanchez presented at the Tony Awards and that to me was like, all right, that's New York. If you're at the Tonys and

you're presenting- Then before that, it was like, all right, that's like, that's New York. Like if you're at the Tony's and you're presenting like. No, before that it was Parcells. It was Parcells. Yeah, probably before. And then, I mean, it never was like. I guess Rex Ryan, they tried a little bit with Rex to make him the face to some degree. But it wasn't like New York City, like high society. You know what I mean?

Like Rex was more of like, you know, blue collar, all that stuff. Like Rogers is going to be in page six, going to be at the right restaurants, he's going to be at the right clubs, he's going to be out and about, I think, at least this offseason. You'll have a story of him in the Hamptons schmoozing with this part. The Jets haven't had that juice in a while. That's kind of what he wants, right? I think there is a lot to that. I think this is kind of cool for him after 18 years living in Green Bay, Wisconsin. It's like, all right, now I'm in the big city and I'm going to be that guy. Well, they have the fourth best odds on FanDuel right now to win the AFC. It goes KC plus 350, Buffalo plus 450, Cincy plus 500. They're at nine to one, the Jets. They have better odds than the Ravens and Dolphins, 10 and 12 to one.

Chargers, 13-1. Jaguars, 15-1 in the easiest division of all time. Pats are 25-1. I don't totally get it with the Jets. It feels like they are a year away, especially with Brees Hall. I don't know if it's realistic that

he comes back during the season. I kind of like the Pats odds more than the Jets' odds. It's because of Brady two years ago, three years ago. It was a very similar situation. Great young team, just missing one position. And if we get that one position and he can lead us, then we're good. Now, remember, it took a while for Brady to learn Arians' offense. They stumbled out of the blocks a little bit, and then they got hot,

and they won, and you and I did a killing on million-dollar picks because of it. The Jets, he comes with Hackett. Hackett and him, I can tell you, when they went out to Malibu and all the Jets brass and two owners and Sala and Joe Douglas, it was like Hackett and Rodgers having a giggle fest, hugging, loving each other up. That was like Hackett and Rodgers having a giggle fest, like hugging, loving each other up. And that was the bridge. That's the comfort. Rodgers has never spoken about a coach like he does Nathaniel Hackett. So the hope is that he comes and immediately is the

Aaron Rodgers of MVP lore with all these new young weapons and that he can lift all these guys with him. That's asking a lot. So where was that guy last year? I know. I know. They missed the playoffs last year. People forget. They missed the playoffs. He wasn't good last year. He was up and down

and he had some bad games and some bad moments. I just didn't think he was that impactful. So you could say all the off-field stuff dragged him down. That was reinvigorated.

Or a thumb injury. Major injury. He wasn't really advertising that he had a thumb injury. Apparently he's healed. I think fourth in the AFC is very rich for a franchise that hasn't been to the playoffs in more than a decade. AFC East odds on FanDuel are interesting. All the odds are great right now. This is like the best time for value. The Bills are plus 130. The Jets are plus 250. Dolphins plus 290. And then the Pats are plus 750.

And I don't know. The Pats were, what were they, 8-9-9-8 last year? But they threw away like three games. They had the worst coaching staff situation really since the early 90s. I think they have a lot of talent. The Bills are the just, oh yeah, write them down at the favorite. Like, are we sure we like the Bills this year? Lot of, lot of, lot of, lot of questions

on the defense side, right? And they finish, I mean, last year was such a emotional and mentally draining year for them, whether it be the DeMar Hamlin situation, which has been well chronicled, but also the multiple weather incidents. And then the owner had health issues. Then you had Dawson Knox, his brother had a tragic story. All this stuff was just like one after

another after another. By the time they got to January, they had nothing left in the tank. Your hope is that for the Bills, take a break, take an off season, you add Kincaid, you add a few other players, and then suddenly it's, oh, it's the same Buffalo Bills that were the Super Bowl favorites last year. They're just not completely mentally and emotionally exhausted and drained. And they're a little under the radar, which kind of helps them this year too. I don't think they're going to be under the radar. And I think people are going to feel like they're one of the favorites. They're in an interesting spot. I have Bills fans in my life. Shout out to Ara Juani. What's up, Ariel? Who just thought the coaching last year

was just bad. And Leslie Frazier took the quote unquote year off. We'll see if we see him again. But I have coaching strategy questions about them, especially you go back, they still get a free pass for that Chiefs game where they let the Chiefs score in 13 seconds. It just gets overlooked in the panels of NFL history. But I look at the AFC East and I just feel like if we did like a game show where it's like, all right, you have 15 minutes

to make the case for the Dolphins to win the AFCs, for the Patriots, for the Jets, for the Bills. You could really make solid cases for each team.

I think it's, I think it's wide open. I don't think the patch should be plus 750. No, but I think it's fair to put them forth knowing what the Jets did this offseason. And I think, you I think the Bills, so Leslie Frazier is no longer there for this year.

And Ken Dorsey is back. And Ken Dorsey interviewed for the Carolina job and was getting head coach buzz. And you could say, well, the offense went somewhat differently without Brian Dable there. I disagree. I feel like they were flying high most of the season, Buffalo, and then they hit that rough patch of just unfortunate luck. So to me, I think the Bills are still the heavies in this division. And it's like one, and then there's a big gap between two, three, and four. And you could stack them every one. I don't know if I could put the Jets above the Dolphins. Dolphins got Jalen Ramsey and a bunch of other talent too. So I would go-

Yeah, but you saw that Tua story, right? Yeah. Where he thought about retiring. Yeah, he was being honest. I saw that. I'm like, I'm out on the Dolphins. You're going to have to prove to me that he can play a whole season, that everything's going to be...

I could see that going the other way, where it's like the quarterback situation's unsettled. I don't know. Why were the Rams so eager to get rid of Jalen Ramsey? Was Jalen Ramsey even that good last year? I watched games where he got torched. I think that division's wide open. The other one that I just don't know what to make of

is the NFC North. Where I think Detroit's going to be penciled in plus 140. There's some incredible Ewing theory, even though Rodgers won a title, but I think it was so long ago, I think the Packers almost qualified for the Ewing theory. They just have a lot of good players.

Is there a 13-year moratorium? There's a lot of good players. They still have good skill guys. Vikings, who the fuck knows? They're plus 350. The Packers are plus 330. Lions are plus 140. And then the Bears, plus 350. The Bears were better odds than I was expecting.

And so you're basically really betting on a Justin Fields breakout season. The DJ Moore is what they need. That's a lot of faith in DJ Moore. That what he brings is what they've been missing for 20 years, a number one wide receiver. And it's some crazy stats about like he's already got more career catches than any Bears receiver in the last 20 years. Like wild stuff. We both love DJ Moore. He had nobody throwing to him for four years. He was great. And he's throwing in that trade, obviously. Vikings are interesting. So Vikings go into the draft and I'm getting a lot of buzz from around the league

that like circle 23, Vikings are a team that could be looking for quarterback. Cousins is his final year, essentially. He's making $35 million. They're going to want to pass the torch. They got rid of Thielen. They're the team to watch as far as quarterback. Well, 23rd comes up.

Jordan Addison, who I know is very highly regarded, he's drafted. So you got Addison and who I know is very highly regarded. He's drafted. So you've got Addison and Jefferson, and now you've got Cousins. And then fifth round, Jaron Hall falls to them. And this is a guy that's out of BYU that did not get a lot of buzz as far as the Hendon Hooker stuff was. But I know a lot of teams saying, of all the quarterbacks, that's the one that surprised us that dropped all that far.

And that was Sam Howell last year for Washington. So there is this other aspect of like, all right, rookie quarterback coming in. This might be the guy, this might be the heir apparent. And if that's it, does Cousins have that fire under him of being like, all right, contract year, all in, we've got this good roster. There's offensive talent all over. And like, are the Vikings the team and not the Lions that we should be circling as the favorites in the NFC North? Really fun division. I love that. You know, and the reason like, it's fun to talk about this stuff now is like last spring is a good example. The Cowboys were the favorites and it was like same kind of mentality with the Bills or the Lions. It's just like, Oh, Cowboys, they're the ones.

And the Eagles were lurking at like three to one. We were doing ringer gambling shows at the time. And all of us were like, whoa, those Eagle odds are out of whack. What's up with that? Look at their schedule. And over the course of the summer, those odds shifted. And eventually they passed the Cowboys and became the favorites. I think that's going to happen with one of these divisions and maybe it'll be

the NFC North. Can I ask a team? Can I ask a team? What are the, what are the odds on, or just what's the top? I think Seattle's really good. So that was the next one I was going to go to.

Like really good. And it can challenge the Niners this year. Cause I think they've doubled down on Gino. They didn't draft a quarterback five or 20. They just gave him more weapons. And knowing John Schneider and speaking with him this offseason, they are very excited for this team.

And they just added talent at every position they need. They have another running back who's outstanding that they added to kind of... I don't know. I feel like Seattle's the Lurking Giant. Yeah, they're the Lurking Giant. Geno and a cheap deal. I feel like Seattle's the giant. Yeah. They're the lurking giant. A cheap deal. The,

so this is another one. The Niners. Oh, pencil them and they'll win the NFC West again. Will they? Will they? They're minus one 75 on FanDuel and their quarterbacks right now are Brock Purdy coming off.

Whatever the fuck elbow injury that was, that was like six to nine months, Sam Darnold. And they're saying Trey Lance is the to nine months. Sam Darnold. And they're saying Trey Lance is the third stringer. Sam Darnold. We've seen the Sam Darnold thing just with Carol. He literally blew their chance to make the playoffs last year because he's Sam Darnold. And I don't know. Kyle Shannon's not a miracle worker. I thought Brock Purdy was good last year. I don't think Sam Darnold's good. I just think like Seattle should be way closer to San Francisco.

Seattle plus 260. And then you have the Rams that are throwing the season away. And you have the Cardinals that have to throw the season away. So potentially you could go 4-0 against that. And they'll have an easier schedule than the Niners. I don't get it. I like Seattle and the NFC. Forget NFC West. Let's look at those odds.

I think they were ahead of schedule last year. 14-1 NFC. Ahead of schedule last year. Great home field advantage. A quarterback who has their respect. Now remember, you might not think Geno's in the same conversation as Mahomes or Allen, but in the NFC, Geno's right up there with all those guys. The NFC is not...

I mean, we lost Brady and Rodgers this offseason in the NFC. I don't know. I feel like... And that wasn't a bad playoff game for them. They lost, but they kind of hung around. They didn't get trounced or anything. Yeah, I'm with you. I like when teams get two top 20 studs.

Just like they got two pedigree dudes, right? Smith and Jigba is going to be a third wide receiver, and I think he would have been a first wide receiver on a lot of teams if he was drafted, where he was expected to go in the top 15. So you join him with Metcalf, who's obviously built like a NBA

power forward. Lockett, who is one of the great deep threats of the game. And they still like Eskridge, who they drafted a couple years years ago so they've got four really good wide receivers no offense can still play tight end with will disley like and then they've got these running backs that just keep coming in droves and i don't know good offensive line they drafted two tackles in the in the draft last year who played every game like i really like seattle right now i like walker do we like zach sharber now? Yes. Yes. Yes. Now look, you might say, why did you need him? If you've got, well, that's just what Seattle does. They're

always going to have four running backs that can just go. Yes. And they're probably a linebacker short, but they'll address that. And they also have the Seattle media mafia behind them. Yes. I mean, it's just an unbelievable slew of people. Really is strong. Yeah. The, the other one that I was looking at from a division standpoint,

that's just a pencil me in team, but it's like, are we sure we trust this as Jacksonville? Because on the one hand, you could say Jacksonville is only minus 160. Every other team

in that division is fucking terrible. Yeah. Tennessee, I guess it's going to be the Tannehill leading into the Will Levis era, but for the most part, that's like a total reboot. Colts plus

550, Tennessee plus 360, and then the Texans plus 800. But history says, and we saw it last year, where it was like, what do we do with this division? Jacksonville? And then Jacksonville ends up winning the division. I don't know. This looks this division? Jacksonville? And then Jacksonville ends up winning the division. I don't know.

This looks too easy for Jacksonville. It makes me suspicious. Is it too early to just cross off Tennessee? They are bringing Tannehill back. They are bringing Derrick Henry back. Or do you think it's a reboot for them? I think it's a bit of a reboot. And they had a lot of needs.

And I think new GM who drafted this team in his likeness a little bit. And I think, you know, new GM who built, you know, who drafted this team kind of in his likeness a little bit. And I, the Levis thing is interesting. I had multiple teams tell me the next day on Friday that Tennessee was calling up to get into the end of the first round and they didn't make that trade because they wanted Levis. So what a different storyline it is if Tennessee trades up to 20, you know, seven with the bills and gets Levis at the end of the first round. It's like, all right, Will Levis goes first round. He got a first round. Now he's looked as like this sad sack loser who had to fly back and didn't stay at the

draft and then had this video of him getting all fired up when he was selected. And it's like this Will Levis story that could have been very different if they took him where I think they were willing to go. I mean, what was your take? Because you didn't do a Friday morning instant reaction or anything. What was your take on the whole Levis experience throughout this draft and then where he went? Because everyone I speak to now, look, he might've come off as quirky and weird with like mayonnaise in his coffee and eating a banana with a peel on. Like he's a really smart, really interviewed,

really well, like throws the ball. I don't know. This might be one of those where we look back and we're like, oh wow, Derek Carr went in the second round or Jimmy Garoppolo went in the second round. Will Levis went in the second round. How did that happen? I was surprised by how the whole thing went on. Also, I don't know the geographical deal, but he's from, I want to say North Atterborough is where he was from. And then he grew up and now he lives in Madison, Connecticut. You're the Connecticut, New England guy. Tell me what that world is. Yeah. Tell me that world. Yeah. That's like a tough, gritty, middle-class kind of world. Let's go. I looked at, again, I barely know anything about the college game. So it actually kind of helps me to see the draft because I just look at it really objectively.

And to me, it just seemed like only three teams needed a quarterback that were drafting high. So I'm not sure if there was much of a talent difference between Levis and Anthony Richardson. It was just once those first three went, nobody else needed one. So if you're Tennessee, why would you trade up if you're just looking at the board going, well, they're not going to take QB and they're not. And you just go through and it's, and every single team would never take a QB. The one that might've taken them is Miami, right? If they had had their fit, they had had their pick. If they had the 51st pick. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, if they had had a first rounder. Sure.

But yeah, I just think sometimes that's the way the draft shakes out. And the NBA is like that too. Sometimes there will be a center or like a five, right? And the guy's clearly like one of the nine best guys in the draft, but really nobody just needs a center and then they'll fall to 17. Bam out of bio that happened. Bam?

He went like a couple picks later. I feel like Greg Monroe went like later than he should have, like because of like just the draft. Jalen Dern was like that. Yeah. Jalen Dern went like I think 13th, but he wasn't the 13th best player in the draft sometimes that happens so it's and it's such a position you could tell me i think he's probably gonna suck

because i don't think the quarterbacks were good at this draft but um i thought it was good value it was a really interesting quarterback draft so i'm counting right now. There's one, two, three that were taken in the first round. Then you have four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 quarterbacks were selected. 15. That's the most, I mean, in modern, I think like seven were taken. And as a transition to it, like Hendon Hooker goes 68 to Detroit. Then there's this big gap. 127, the Saints move up to take this guy, Jake Hainer, out of Fresno State, where he'll join Derek Carr as a Fresno State guy in the fourth round. The very next pick, the Rams take Stetson Bennett, who I know some teams had no interest in, take him in the fourth round. And then a few picks later, it's Aiden O'Connell to the Raiders.

There's going to be all these guys that were taken, Clayton Thune and Dorian Thompson-Robinson. And I think it was the Brock Purdy effect where teams were like, I'd rather have a quarterback on my roster that we might throw in and can do something

than having a backup guard or a long snapper. Somebody who played in college and threw for three, four years and has a lot of reps. Let's throw him in. Like, Sean Clifford got drafted and he's the guy

who replaced Levis at Penn State. He went to Green Bay in the fifth round, but I didn't have a draftable grade for many teams on Sean Clifford, but at that point, you're like, all right, fifth round. This guy played in the Big Ten. I like this. The Brock Purdy effect. I like this. I like this theory. I think you're right. I think it's what it was, and teams are like,

Max Duggan from TCU who played in the national title game, maybe he didn't have a draft. Chargers took him. They're like, let's add him. And in other years, that would have been an undrafted guy. And he's got to like, no, we'll draft him. We'll add him to our roster. So 15 quarterbacks were taken. We go nuts over the first three and we do all the mock drafts. But to me, which one of these 15, is Stetson Bennett going to have a great career with the Rams? Is he the next guy after Stafford? Or is it going to be like

you know Jaron Hall in Minnesota next year is starting you know after Kirk Cousins leaves and wow he went in the fifth I find that fascinating

how each team had different boards and how they valued these quarterbacks did Tampa take one I can't remember did Tampa Bay I don't think so they didn't right

yeah they didn't take one they're going with Trask and they're going with Baker oh because they already had Trask and they're going with Baker. Oh, because they already had Trask. They already rolled the dice on that. That was their guy a couple years ago. Yeah, I mean, when Bailey Zappi came in for the Pats, he was pretty confident that one game. They threw him in the second time in the

Monday Night Football when he wasn't ready and he sucked. Crowd went nuts, though. Yeah. I like this QB thing, the Brock Purdy effect, but it does make me wonder, why wouldn't a team have offered a second or third rounder for Trey Lance? And with the Niners, we've even done that. Why would I roll the dice on one of these guys? Trey Lance, whether he should have been third pick or not, he at least had the talent to be the third pick. And I don't, you know, he started for them last year and got hurt. And he's been in an NFL building with those quarterbacks and with that quarterback coach

and with Kyle Shanahan for now three years. So you have to think at the very least, he comes in light years ahead of a lot of these college quarterbacks. The problem with Trey Lance is, all right, so say you trade for Trey Lance, you give up a third round pick, you bring Trey Lance in.

You're getting year three. So you're on the clock. You got to make a contract decision next year on it. Yeah. You better want Trey Lance to make a difference. You better want Trey Lance to make an impact because the very likely point is your third rounder is starting somewhere this year and maybe not a quarterback, but if you're drafting a wide receiver, a defensive end, he's going to have to play. And if Trey Lance is on the bench and then next year his contract's up, well, what do we just do? Where did you stand? Because I feel like

people had to pick one way or the other where they stood on the Anthony Richardson, will he be a stud or a bust? Because it seems like there's no in between. He's either going to be a stud or a bust. Well, what I liked about Richardson is every one I spoke to said he came in and in his interviews was great, but he also was like, no, I don't need a year of like training. Like I'm good to go now. And, and I think the narrative was, okay, 13 career starts, he'll hold a clipboard and he'll do what Steve McNair did. He'll do what, uh, you know, so many of these young rookie quarterbacks do.

They have to wait a year if they're watching NFL offense and then they get inserted and here we go. We're good to go. The Holmes model, whatever it is, he, to a man, to every team that interviewed him, blew them away. They loved him. And then he also said, I'm ready to go now. I could do it.

And I could do it at a high level. And I think teams kind of like that. Curious to see what the Colts do. But it's- Awesome team for him to go to. Great team for him to go to. Great offensive line. And it's a fun, fun market for him to have Taylor behind him.

And he's going to run a lot. And Shane Steichen has had Justin Herbert. He's had Jalen Hurts. He's had two different types of quarterbacks, but he also likes guys getting out of the pocket. It's a good, good spot for him. And I wouldn't be shocked if he plays a lot earlier than people expect.

I know Minshew's there and Sam Ellinger, but if Richardson's got the goods and he can move, let's get him in. Last thing, Giants. How are we feeling? They paid Danny Jones a lot of money. They gave Barkley some money.

This feels like an in-between year. The Pats had this with Parcells. They had a good first year with them. The good second year with them. Made then the next year was supposed to, or the good second year with them. Made the playoffs. And then it was like, oh, this is the year. And then they had the dip before it came back up.

And it feels like this would be the dip. And then it comes back up. I don't know. I feel like spirits are high. And the Giants draft was solid. They get Banks, who's going to start a corner. He's a number one corner for them. He'll play.

He'll start. And then they got the big center, John Michael Schmitz, which is good. And they got Jalen Hyatt. I like that guy. I wanted him for the Pats. I thought that was one of my favorites. And they got Jalen Hyatt, who's going to be a burner. You've seen a lot on Twitter about whether he can run routes or not. Well, third round pick, we'll figure it out and we'll be all right. They're happy with what they did. I also think the Giants are fine kind of laying the cut right now as the Eagles and the Jets are getting all this media attention in the market. The Giants, they went to the playoffs. They went to the divisional round. They feel pretty good. The Saquon thing is interesting.

I hope it doesn't get ugly. They offered Saquon a really, really good contract. Now that we look at how the contracts went in the free agency period, he said no one is bi-week. They franchise tagged him. He said no in his bye week. They franchise tagged him. He's making about 10 million. I know that talks are kind of at a standstill right now with Saquon. So you think it'll hold out? Potentially. We'll see. And is that a standing offer, what they offered,

that 13 million back in the bye week? I would probably think no, now that we've seen how the market has shaken out. So does he swallow his pride and say, I'll play on the franchise tag? Does he take less than that original offer? It's really interesting because the Giants, they worked through Saquon in a lot of ways, but they gave so much money to Daniel Jones that it's almost like it's got to be the quarterback's team now. And then he's got to be thinking, well, I'm better than Daniel Jones. I think so. He's going to make four times more money than me.

What are we doing? This goes back to what you said at the top when we were talking about B. John Robinson and Gibbs. That you take this first round running back and you just ride them for four years and then maybe don't do the second contract. Barkley knows that. This is Barkley. So he's going to have another 370 carries for them this year or whatever it is. And then what?

And then he still doesn't have the contract? Yeah. And then they can franchise tag him again if they want. So it's stuff like, Austin Echler said early on in the free agency period or the window that he was looking to be traded. There was dust balls that came through. The NFL, they're not looking for these free agent running backs

or to trade for running backs. It's a shame. DeAndre Swift goes for 50 cents on the dollar, and he's a good player. He goes to the Eagles, and they're very savvy. The Eagles just, they lose Miles Sanders, who's making $8 million a year now in Carolina. And for less money, they've got Rashad Penny and DeAndre Swift. And it's like, the running back position's in a really interesting place right now. So when you see them take an eight Swift. And it's like, the running back position's in a really interesting place right now. So when you see them take an 8-12, it's like, I can't make,

it's hard to make ends with it because in the same breath, Ezekiel Elliott's sitting on the free agent block with no team right now. It's interesting. Well, when you have 32 teams, it only takes two dumbasses to buck a trend, right?

Where everybody agrees, ah, running backs, let's not pay that much. And then the lines are like, hold my beer. We want them. Yeah. Number 12.

Gibbs and Robinson will be a fun case study this year because I thought it was done. Like, because a couple of years back, it was Najee and Travis Etienne went in the end of the first round and it was like, all right. And then last year there were none

and Brees Hall went early. And then to go eight and 12, it's like, no, just wait a second here. The running back position might not be dead in the draft. And it was encouraging for that position group because free agency, like David Montgomery, a great running back for the Bears. They don't bring them back. Jamal Williams, great for the Lions. They don't bring them back. You go right down the list. Why would you? Damien Harris was good for the Pats. They didn't even want to bring him back at two million. Before we go, you want to get like two shots off on succession?

Oh, where do you want to go? You want to bang out? I don't know. I'm giving you a forum. You don't get to talk pop culture ever. I love it. You and I text about it. I think it's such a good show. And I think it's in such a good place.

And I love the side character. I love Carl. Me too. He's my favorite. He just comes in there and it's like, I need six minutes out of you, Carl. I need four lines of dialogue. And he just hits home runs every single time he's out there. He's great. I was watching the screener for the seventh episode because we do the podcast on Friday and Frank enters the room and I was just watching with my wife and I'm like, Frank, he was like a real person. And my wife's like, you just greeted Frank. Like he was

walking to the living room. And I was like, I'm going to miss Frank. We only have four episodes left with Frank. I don't know about you and I haven't been in any Hollywood meetings and I'm only caught up. I haven't watched that since then actually, but no spoilers here. But when Roman meets with the head of the studio in Hollywood. Oh yeah, Joy. And Joy is sitting there across. Like I've been in those at Fox where it's like you're in the commissary

and it's like, all right, we're going to get a table and you're going to meet with someone at the commissary. And it's like that whole meeting and then him riding on the back of the golf cart, like that to me would be an amazing epic television show in itself. Roman Roy, Hollywood studio. That could have been the spinoff. If we're talking spinoffs, Roman running a studio definitely is in there.

The Tom and Greg being put in charge of a fledgling Fox News rival type thing would have been awesome. Really good. I would watch anything with Kendall. Anything with Connor. Kendall buys Interscope. We're going to get into the hip-hop. It's one of the best brands right now. James Murdoch, right? Because I think Rupert's son, James,

he owned Ruckus Records in the late 90s and apparently that's an inspiration for all this. I love the musical choices. Kendall listening to the hip-hop from that era on the way into a big meeting. It's not good. It's a takeover. What about Kendall buying the Jets? That would be great. We're going to go in. We're very

happy with Daniel Jones. He moves the needle. You see his Kendall jargon? Dude, I'm watching it and it's every opening episode, the first episode, where they're basically I don't know if it's what's Ben Smith's new company or if it's on Pug. A semaphore, yeah. I don't know if it's, um, what's Ben Smith's new company or if

it's on pause, I don't know if they're spoofing those guys with like, it's, it's New Yorker, but economists, but also it's like, it's so good. And it's so on. And I've been in so many meetings where, you know, it's talking about sports content, but it's like, it's daily show, but it's also sports, but it's also got a little bit of vice. And then it's Deuces and Mero. It's a little bit of that. And it's like, no, guys, that's just jargon. And I love it. They capture it so good.

They do such a good parody on media. And then I don't even follow what's going on. I just love the dialogue. It's so good. I couldn't tell you what the hell Gojo is. And I don't know about Living Plus, but I just love the way they spoof all of it. It's great.

Great stuff. All right. Shregs, a pleasure to see you as always. It's been a while. We've got to get Bill Simmons at the Garden for one of these games if they win another. I think it would be an amazing experience. You're the biggest NBA fan and the Garden is rocking again. You don't have to come in as an enemy of the

state. You can come in just as Bill Simmons. Would I be higher on the seat chart than Jerry Farrar or no? Probably not. I'd be in the Joe Torre section. You're up there with Hank Azaria and Matthew Modine and you're a couple of rows back. I'm back with Sanford from Sex and the City. Who knows? Hey, they are all New York celebrities and they are all important and they are all part of the fabric. And I just love that they were great. really quickly like i i know like when i grew up it was like oh we got willis reed and walt frazier and all this thing and then as i you know the 90s come on oh there's ewing and

there's stars and there there's doc rivers or derrick or mason the late great now though they've got like here's marcus canby and tim thomas and this whole generation's like, holy shit, Tim Thomas is in the building. Tim Thomas. It's great. It's Jamal Crawford. We went 22 and 60 with him. I'm telling you, if they brought out Ray Felton, the place would explode. But in all

honesty, and I said this to our mutual friend, Connor Shaw, I said, they go through the Knicks row and they shouldn't show him on the big screens on the very end. If they brought back fucking Charles Oakley for game five, this place... Like a bury the hatchet?

Bury the hatchet. We're all good. But you show Chappelle and you show Mike Myers and you show Chris Rock and Ben Stiller and then at the very end, without any hoopla or anything, they just go to Charles Oakley. I'm telling you that the garden would melt. All right.

Good suggestion. Schrags, good to see you as always. Love you, dude. Thank you. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerruti as well. Thanks to Big Waz.

Thanks to Peter Schrager. Good luck to Harvardver Westlake this weekend and I will see you on this feed with Russillo on Sunday. Enjoy the weekend. I don't have a few years

with him on the wayside on the first I never said I don't have a few years