The Bill Simmons Podcast - Early NBA Surprises With Doc Rivers, Plus Netflix’s Dominating 2023 With Matthew Belloni

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Doc Rivers to discuss the NBA In-Season Tournament, the teams atop the Eastern and Western Conferences, the new-look Clippers, Anthony Edwards, the exciting Rockets, Bucks concerns, and more (6:30). Then Bill is joined by Matthew Belloni to discuss Netflix in 2023, how it continues to rise as other major streamers fall, the future of live sports, and much more (1:21:27). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Doc Rivers and Matthew Belloni Producers: Kyle Crichton and Jessie Lopez The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, talking hoops for a long, long time with Doc Rivers next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill

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Must be legal drinking age. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking,

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The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit RG-ando.com slash BS to download America's number one sports book. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit RG-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit RG-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where we put up Officer and a Gentleman on the rewatchables this week. An early 80s classic, Richard Gere,

Debra Winger, Oscar winner, Lou Gossett, a famous theme song. Just bringing a whole bunch of stuff to the table. Most importantly, Byron Mayo, a new character now on the rewatchables, who's also in this movie, but had a great time we did it for how much did that movie make this month month you always have to make your voice go high when you do that one

on the rewatchables so check that out check out Prestige TV we're there breaking down the crown getting ready for the the last season on Netflix

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who have another podcast on the Ringer Dish called Jam Session, which has been a staple of our network really for the last seven years. But I think they had the most jam session-y podcast they've ever done this Monday. The title is Lauren Sanchez's Vogue Profile, Leonardo DiCaprio's 49th Birthday Bash,

and Taylor Swift's Travis Shout Out. Those are three topics. It's really Juliet's masterpiece. I just picture her beaming as she writes that out as the title. Congrats to both of them. Great podcast. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Check out all the podcasts on the Manger Podcast Network.

I am not talking football today in the podcast. I'm going to save everything for Thursday. I have a lot of thoughts. That Bills-Denver game last night was just incredible. Denver, seven and a half point underdogs. We had them for million dollar picks and they're basically playing for their season because if they fall to three and six, it's not happening for them. And the Bills are just doing every dumb thing possible and culminating in Denver drives down. For some reason, Denver decides to kill the ball twice, kill the ball a third time,

then rush the field goal unit on, which I'm just like fundamentally, I don't know what the analytics say. Shout out to Seth Walder. I'm just fundamentally against that. I don't care what the, the rushing the field goal unit out. I just, it never feels right. Guy misses it. Bills have 12 been on the field.

They lose. They dropped to five and five. I was pretty all over the place with my preseason stuff. I had some things that I liked, like Miami for the division. I did not like Buffalo this year. I bet on Buffalo not to make the playoffs. I was anti-Chargers, and I was anti-Jags. And I had Tennessee winning that division. I think I had the wrong team. It's going to end up being Houston. The Lions were the one I was way wrong about because I thought somebody else

was going to steal that division, but the Lions are good. I had Philly to make the Super Bowl and I had them for most points. I was like all in on that Philly team. So I think I got that right. I like Seattle to make the playoffs. The biggest misses for me were Detroit and then thinking the Giants

and the Pats could sneak in as playoff teams. And one of the reasons I thought the Pats could sneak in was because I just didn't like this Buffalo team. Now, they've had some things go against them. They had some injuries on the defense. But just in general, it just felt like a lot of bark and no bite with them. And they'd never really had any playoff success. Um,

I always, I thought they got overpowered by Cincinnati last year in the playoffs. I thought that was a terrible sign. I was just never sold on them. And now it's like, you know, you have Sean McDermott. I tweeted that it was like in,

in cliffhanger when John Lithgow starts turning on his own crew, you have McDermott firing his offensive coordinator. Oh, it basically, there's nobody left to blame and he's going to be the one that gets bounced at the end of the year. But man, with these NFL windows, you have these four-year windows. And we had, I think we had five of them with the Patriots where we had the early 2000s window and then it was the late 2000s window. It's like four or five years. And it really does feel like Buffalo missed their window now where they had this awesome quarterback. They did the digs move. They were right there against the Chiefs with 13 seconds left and it didn't happen. And now you just, you look at it from far away and you go, man, maybe they just missed it. They're getting passed by all these other teams. You got Houston on the rise.

You got Cincinnati's there. You got KC and then Miami in their own division. So we'll see. There's always one team in the last eight games of the season who either comes out of nowhere or turns their season around. It could be Buffalo.

But from what we've seen all year, they just don't seem physical enough. Like the Broncos yesterday, they just had the ball. I mean, they rushed the ball 38 times. They had 24 completions. Anytime you're over 60 combined on that number, you're probably going to win the game

or come close. I think the Bills are in trouble. Honestly, I'm the most focused on the Pats and this Giants game two weeks from now. You're not going to believe the threads I've been on text-wise. The Giants-Pats game is basically our anti-Super Bowl. And I actually typed the words on a text that I think they have to arrest Barmore and Ramondre and make up fake injuries for them for this game. When you're texting your friends that we have to intentionally say Christian Barmore for an NFL game, you know your season has hit rock bottom. I feel like the Mac Jones of fans.

So we'll see what happens with that in two weeks. But Million Dollar Picks kind of signs a life the last couple of weeks. We'll see. We'll be doing that on Thursday and we'll have a whole bunch of fun stuff on Thursday. Coming up, we're going to talk about basketball with Doc Rivers. We taped it before the in-season tournament games on Tuesday night. And our friend Matt Balany from the town. We're going to talk about Netflix's massive, massive game changing 2023 and what it means for people like us who watch TV going forward. That's next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, Doc Rivers is here.

We're taping this Tuesday morning, so it's before all the Tuesday in-season tournament games. I have to ask you about the in-season tournament because I know you have to announce it, and I think we both generally like it. At least it's something to do in November and December, but if you were coaching one of these teams, what is the difference between these games and other games? What would you be telling them in the locker room, or if you were coaching one of these teams, what is the difference between these games and other games? What would you be telling them in the locker room? Or would

you be telling them nothing? I think you would. I think you would tell them something. I think if I was coaching one of these teams, if I had never won a title, I would want to win. If I'm a team that has a chance to win, if you're Philadelphia, if you're Boston who hasn't won, Minnesota, then I'm going for this. And I found that to be true. I heard Frank Vogel talking about it to the Phoenix Suns. Hey, guys, let's win everything this year. Let's win this title. Let's win the next title. I think what could be a really interesting scenario is let's say the Boston Celtics

and pick them in the West. Whoever you want in the West. We'll say Denver. Let's say Minnesota. Boston, Minnesota. Played in the championship. That will mean something if they meet. It will. It just will. The one team that

wins the trophy will believe that they're better than that team, even though it's the regular season and it's early. And the other team will remember them holding up that trophy. So I do think that this is going to work out. I think it's still for fans and even for me at times it's going to take time. I'm one of the few people that actually like the ugly courts uh i didn't mind them either yeah i like them because i think it tells you that it's different when you see that court now and for now on you're going to know this is not a regular season game even though it is i think steve kerr was telling me last week, he said, listen, it's a two thing. Number one, we're playing a team that hasn't lost.

They were playing Dallas or somebody at the time. We want to beat them, period. We may see them in the playoffs. So we want to beat them. Number two, we want to win or get to the tournament. So we want to beat them. So I do think it's working already. And I just think in each year, it'll get better and better.

The thing I like about it, and I still don't understand from a player standpoint, other than what you just laid out, why the players ultimately are going to care that much. Like Jason Tata makes $38 million a year. Is he going to really ultimately, oh my God, I can make another 500. It seems like the competitive piece will be the piece. And I do think that's there. Like, I'm going to go to Vegas for those semifinal games and the finals games, because, you know, to me, it's a little like what I always wanted the all-star game to be. And it could never totally live up to it where it's a snapshot of who matters, right? If the all-star game worked

correctly, it'd be like, all right, these are the 10 players in the league that matter right now. And they're going to play really hard for eight minutes. And let's see what this looks like. And I think about that week in Vegas, if there's four teams left, let's say it's Minnesota, Denver, Boston, and Philly, it's going to feel like it matters. And there's going to be stuff going on where it's like, all right, this is now a playoff game. Things are slowing down. What if they do this? What, you know, so I do think there's going playoff game. Things are slowing down. What if they do this? So I do think there's going to be value. I think I'm with you.

Yeah, and what else is going to be, so because I coach Philly, so let's use Philadelphia, right? They've never been to the finals. The media attention at the finals is enormous. It's going to be the same thing at this mid-season tournament. So now you're getting practice. Now you're getting used to that. That will be great.

That'll be a great experience. The other thing that I think, and it's going to be interesting to see, is how the coaches substitute. You know, if it's the playoffs and it's the finals, you may cut your roster down to six or seven. Your six-person rule. What is it? Play eight?

What is it? Play eight, whatever, and then trust six? Yeah. Get comfortable with seven, trust six. You can say it any way you want. And most coaches do that, right? With the Celtics, I think the year we won it, we were at eight, which is great. That's rare, though.

That's rare that you can do that. The question will be, will a coach be willing to do that this early? Because you don't want to create any issues the rest of the season. Now, if it's in the playoffs, you're willing to do that. You're trying to win. You're trying to win it all. So that's going to be a really interesting thing, which coach decides to go to his championship rotation

and which coach will stay with his regular season rotation no matter that you're in the tournament. So it'll be an interesting thing. So like Joe Maz, let's say Pritchard continues to be up and down. Yeah. And they get to those last two games, and all of a sudden he basically goes starting five, plus Horford, plus Hauser,

and then he starts staggering White and Holiday a little bit to keep one of them out there. Pritchard plays four minutes in the semifinals and four minutes in the finals, and now you got next week. It's like, hey, man, we need you back. We need you as a eighth mate again. But, you know, I would use it that way. See, I would go the other way. I would absolutely cut it. It's like, hey man, we need you back. We need you as a H-Bane again. I would use it that way.

I would go the other way. I would absolutely cut it. It's a message. Remember the year, I don't know what year it was, probably 2009, I made a speech to the team. We have seven guys. I need eight. One of you guys are going to win it.

For the rest of the year, Tony Allen did not let Marquise Daniels practice. Like he literally wouldn't let him on the floor. And, you know, that was a message. Tony was like, oh, I'm getting these minutes, you know. So in some ways you can use it as a great motivator. Hey, guys, listen, right now I'm very comfortable with seven. And the championship game is going to be the one that you'll – someone's going to do it. One of the two coaches is going to – I'm playing Joel Embiid 42 minutes a night,

Tobias Harris 46. I mean, I take Tyrese out of the game. Right. You know? And then there's going to be a couple of guys who used to be playing and don't play at all. And the message there is, yeah,

we would love to play you, but you got to earn it. So you can use it either way. It'll be interesting. Give me your two top teams in the East and the two top teams in the West.

We're at the three week mark. The two teams in each conference you think are ready to actually be in the finals. Right now, ready to be in the finals. That's a different question, but I would say Boston. All right, so let's go top two in each right now.

So you got Boston, Philly, and the East. Boston, Philly, and the East. In the West, Denver for sure. Man, I swear I want to say Minnesota. And I may actually right now, right now, the three-way to the Denver, Minnesota. So I have the same four. And I did on my podcast last week, I did a power poll after two weeks. And I had a Minnesota fifth because I watched that Denver game and I was just stunned by

the size and just how uncomfortable they made Denver. Now it wasn't a complete Denver team, but there's a size element to the league now. And I talked about this on the Thursday pod, just like, I'm not sure the way Phoenix and the Clippers are constructed. They're constructed in the ways that worked in the mid-2010s. I'm not sure you can have teams like that anymore because you're going against Denver and Philly and Boston. Even Boston with Porzingis, he made Miami look super small in that game. It was the first time that there was an overpowering aspect to the Celtics. I just wonder, is that mid-2010 style, is that kind of going away? It's going away. Everything goes in how our league works, right? So I

think unless you are a super team with super players, you can still get away with playing any style. You can make a case that Golden State's really small, but when they're really good, they're hard to beat. They're just hard to beat. No one wants to chase them around. You know, they have some size, but they're not a big team. You know, Chris Paul makes them even smaller.

Philly with Maxie. You know, but what evens it out for Philly, I think what's happened with them and why you like them is everybody else is switchable. They have a very switchable basketball team. Even Joel can switch. Boston is the ultimate switch team. Denver has been doing it. So those teams are very effective. They're all long.

You know, you think about it last year, Denver overpowered Miami. I mean, they were more talented too but just the size you know everybody butler ran up against was big he had to deal with a lot of size you know i remember tibbs and i sitting in in a meeting one day and we couldn't figure out like every time out against the lakers we got every shot we wanted but we wasn't making anything. And when you looked at it, if you look at that team, the Lakers, they were huge. They were long. And so when you look at the jump

shots, yeah, we're open, but there's a long guy challenging it. Length matters, especially in the playoffs. Yeah, that's one of the things I'm concerned about with Golden State. Because Denver, Jokic kind of just owns them. They might be able to beat Denver,

but he's going to put up 35 and 17 and 12 assists. They just don't have any answer for him whatsoever. And then the Minnesota game was interesting too this month, where they just seem small. And you could get away with that Draymond, Looney, and

Wiggins as your power forward two years ago. I'm not sure. There's too many teams now. If you're trying to win 16 games over four rounds, there's going to be at least two teams now that just are big. I thought the Lakers overpowered them last year. The Lakers, I don't even think were as talented as that Minnesota team this year. No, they were, but they literally overpowered them.

And you think about Minnesota. I like bringing up Minnesota because Austin last year was playing on Minnesota, and he made the point after the playoffs. He said, listen, Denver beat us, but they also beat us without McDaniels and Nas Reed. And if you add McDaniels to that team and you add Nas Reed, who no one talks about, and Nas Reed coming off the bench is a problem.

And then you look at Philadelphia and Denver in another light, they're the only two teams that they have two guys that you just can't guard. There's nothing you can do to stop Jokic. There's nothing you can do to stop Jokic. There's nothing you can do to stop Joel Embiid. There just isn't. One of the things I think Philly's doing a

better job this year than when I think Nick has gotten Joel to be a better passer. He's passing the ball. Now, I had him passing, but he's actually willing, and that's a lot of Joel as well. But he's passing the ball that's a lot of Joel as well but he's

passing the ball and Joel passing the ball, I'm telling you, there were games last year when he just did it. He gave it up freely instead of sticking It's hard to play them when he plays like that. It's like a scoring version of Jokic

not as good of a passer but that is passing and that's a problem when he plays like that. It's like a scorned version of Jokic. Not as good of a passer, but that is passing. And that's a problem. I'd just like to fit a Maxie next to him as the number two guy more than Harden. Yeah, I do too. They're just harder to play because... Well, the problem with Maxie, when the Celtics played them last week,

is there's a speed element in the half court and his ability over and over again to get in the paint. But it also felt like people were moving and they just seem more active offensively. Like Tobias is back. I was buying all the Tobias stock last summer because I just felt like he was standing in the corner. It's interesting.

You know, you're taking some blame for this too because people are like, oh, last year the team didn't move. But I think we're already seeing it with Harden on the Clippers. Like, it's just he plays a certain style and that's the style and that's it. You're a prisoner of your style. You really are.

You know, the thing with Tobias, and I'll tell you two quick stories, and I talked to him last. I'm just proud of him. I really am because of this. Last year, the year before last, and the two years before last, Tobias is averaging the exact same numbers that he's averaging right now. Last year, I had to go to Tobias and say hey listen you're now the fourth guy right all right um max is your our third guy um and so you're not going to get as many shots i need you to play the road and he did it bill like you know his numbers were down uh because he didn't get half the shots he did he stood in the corner is that the way to play? No, but that was the only way to play him

when you add James with Joel and Maxie. So what Tobias is doing is what he's really done, you know, his four or five years under me were his best scoring years of his career, and he's back to doing that. And, you know, talked to him last

week. He just said, man, it's so good to be free again. And it's great for him. I'm happy for him. And, you know, talked to him last week. He just said, man, it's so good to be free again. Uh, and, and it's great for him. I'm happy for him. Um, and Tyrese, you knew this was going to happen. You said this on the pod three weeks ago. This is your big prediction. Yeah. That he was going to have a breakout year. Now I did say it with the knowledge that I really felt that, you know, we knew James wasn't going to be there. I wouldn't have made that prediction the other way because he wouldn't have the ball in his hands. And Tyrese Maxey is a fast break, or he puts so much pressure on you. And if you look at some of the games without James last year

and with him pushing the ball, where I think he's made his biggest improvement, though, and I called him after his 50. We talked after his 50 the other day. He's passing. He's making plays. That was probably the one thing. That was his final step with Sam

who worked with him. Sam and Spencer, my son, was seeing the floor and making plays. And he's doing that. And I think part of that is he has the ball in his hands more. And part of that is growth. And it's just awesome to watch.

So against Boston, I was more impressed by the Boston game last week. And he didn't, like, shoot the lights out in that game. But he got all the shots he wanted. And this was a team that has Drew holiday and Derek white on it and some size, right at the challenge. But I felt like over and over again, he was getting to the spots he wanted.

And it's like, there's like what four guards in the league that you would want to guard Maxie. The Celtics have two of them, Alex Caruso, uh, maybe Gary Payton. It's not a long list,

but he was still getting to the spots. He was, he was still getting to the spots he wanted. I was like, oh man. Because they were, last week on, I remember Raheem who works for us, he bet on Philly to win the East last week. They were like nine to one.

And I don't think people were really realizing it, but then Maxie had the 50 and that was the announcement. But I felt like the pieces were there the whole time. Just when he's getting to the spots he wants, that's what, that's what I'm always looking for with guards. Are you getting to where you want? And it just feels like he can do it. And they have a right fit. It's funny when we had been, and you know,

obviously we won the East in the regular season that year with Ben Simmons at the guard and Tyrese was coming up. And then that summer when Ben decided not to play basically to go to Europe yeah my push was like man if we we can get role players if we can get just amazing role players because we already knew I made the announcement if you remember before the second year that if Ben comes back on that Maxie started yeah. I didn't know how I was going to do that at the time, but I was going to do it because I just thought it was time for this kid to grow. And I always look back on that and say,

what if we had traded Ben for two just perfect role players? Because Ben had value at that point. But instead, we went the other way and the rest is history. I think that was the mentality of the league really up until this year where it's like, well, I need the three stars. And now I think the league is so deep.

You need two stars and you need depth and you just need some sort of consistency. Even the trade they ended up making for Harden, which I don't think is the trade Darryl wanted to ultimately make. I think the owners were like, you got to

trade this guy. We got to get moving with the season. Because Embiid, there were some breadcrumbs with him that first week where it's like, oh man, this could get bad with Embiid. We have to do this. So they do it. And they get these two role players, Covington and Batum, who are fine. They're

eighth and ninth men, but they also brought something to the team that they kind of needed against a team like Boston, right? So you get rid of Harden. Now Maxie gets all his shots. That's a win. Now Maxie gets to spread his wings. Great. Now you have more size on the wings to go against Tatum, Jalen Brown, all the guys you need to beat in the East. And now Tobias can get back. Now Tobias gets more shots. Yeah. And now you still have the chance to get like I don't know, could you get Alex Caruso in two weeks? You

can get one more piece and you're off. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, but when you look at it for Harden and Ben Simmons, you ended up with Batum. I mean, when you think about it. And Covington and some picks, you ended up with Batum. I mean, when you think about it. And Covington and some picks, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's not great.

But sometimes addition is an attraction. You know, that attraction is an addition. And in this case, it is. You know, and let's be honest, it didn't look like Joel and James had a great summer. So sometimes you just got to cut your losses. And I think that's what they did. I thought James in the first game, and I said this after the game, I was concerned.

I'm sorry, Joel. I was concerned with what I was seeing. Cause it was like, he was playing, he was out there, but it didn't seem like he was completely invested. He made some dumb plays down the stretch and it just,

it didn't look awesome. I was like, Oh, this isn't good. The Milwaukee game. Yeah, the Milwaukee game. Three weeks later, he looks completely, and I think he loves Maxie, but you guys, I mean, you got a front row seat

watching those two guys, so I'm sure you're not surprised by that. Everyone loves Maxie. Maxie is an unhateable player. He really is. I mean, I don't know a person, you rarely hear negative things about him. You know, defensively, our defensive coach had some things to say about him. But his spirit makes you forget it. I'm telling you, Bill, there's very few people that I've coached,

and I coached a long time. You know, there's no one with the ability that has the same spirit yeah that he has you know i was the names that i was thinking like daryl armstrong um when i when i coached the magic i mean this guy's motor uh he was like it's like he was on 20 cups of coffee every day just happy no bad days you know bring sunshine to your team. When Daryl Armstrong walked into the Magic locker room, it was a good day for everybody, right? And Maxie has that saying, that's who you are. There's very few people like that.

And, you know, Tyrese, in the three years I was there, I'm going to say two bad days. Right. I mean, I have two bad days a week. You know, I mean, really, like it days a week you know, I mean really, like it's amazing later, later

I'm going to be upset because I'm going to go golf well, one of the things that you know, the hardened piece of it and we're going to talk about them in the next segment because I want to talk about the Clippers, but you know, I obviously have some tentacles out there and I've heard some things.

And it's the day-to-day not knowing what kind of personality you're getting from one of your best guys that I think you can get away with for a year. But I'm not sure once you get into like year three of it where it's like, is he going to be happy today? Is something going to set him off? You had to deal with that. Yeah, I think that is true now one thing i will say uh about james that i actually really liked um he's a baller like he didn't like to play he uh overall he liked to practice you know um love practice after practice you know love the one-on-one games and stuff and that can that can be a good thing for your team. And I thought he did that.

No, and there's things that I didn't like, obviously, about James. One thing I did like, especially the first half of the year, he was very invested. He works. And his work ethic is way, it's underestimated how hard he works.

He puts in time. I'll give him that. Yeah. All right, we'll take a break. I want to talk about the Clippers. Cash in on balling out this NBA season with FanDuel,

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They're five-point underdogs without Jamal Murray. It just looks like a classic. They might zag and actually pull it off. Watching them, it takes a while when you throw players together, especially really good players. You have four guys in that team who are used to having the ball, right? So they got to figure

out that aspect. Five of you had Norman Powell. Right, five with Norman Powell. And my big criticism of the trade, I thought the trade was ludicrous and stupid by them. I just didn't understand it. And one of the reasons was there's just not enough balls. All these guys are at their best when they have the ball. And then when you watch it, basically on Sunday in the game that they lost against Memphis, James was almost unplayable on both ends. And then they kind of brought him back in and they just had him in the corner in the Tobias Harris spot, basically. I can guarantee he's not going to be happy there.

I don't think Kawhi's happy if he doesn't have the ball. Paul George has turned into a really nice kind of point forward-y. I actually really like their offense when it runs to them. And then Russ is good when he has it and he's going. I just don't see how it's going to work. And I know Ty Lue is a really good coach,

but I just don't see it. And the more I watch them, I still don't see it. So the more I watch them, like I still don't see it. So what do you see? Well, I see a lot of things. I, one of the things you said earlier is about, do you need two players or do you need three players?

And what I was going to say is three superstars are great. As long as one of them understands that they're going to have to accept a role. And the history of do study the game there's certain things and i always talk about it no one's ever won a title with one guy just dominate the ball over and over and it has never happened and it never will happen you need a team to win the the other thing is you know there's that old saying for the team to win the individual has to lose. There's some truth to that. And it's really true with the third guy and the fourth guy.

They have to give up. I asked Tobias to give up offense. And in a contract kind of year, he did it. Do you know how unusual that is? There's very few people who are going to do that. And it's especially hard for a superstar to do that. So when you look at the Clippers, who's going to be that third guy? And before they play, the first guy that I said may struggle would be Paul George. Because if James is going to have the ball, one of the things that I didn't see in Ty Saul was that put the ball in Paul George's hands. Now, I didn't have him for many practices, but what I didn't like about Paul handling the ball was he's really good, but he also was a high turnover guy. Yeah. And turnovers will kill you. Having said that, when you look at it, he does far more good than bad.

So at the end of the day, you put the ball in Paul George's hands. That was the right decision by time. Now, if you put the ball in James' hands, you're turning Paul George back into what I use him a lot as, like a Ray Allen-ish, and he didn't enjoy that role. He didn't prosper in that role because he needs the ball. Kawhi, I don't think you have to worry about. Kawhi's getting the ball.

He's like, I'll just take it. Yeah, I'll take it. I'm getting it. Kawhi's going don't think you have to worry about. Kawhi's getting the ball. He's like, I'll just take it. Yeah, I'll take it. I'm getting it. Kawhi's going to get the ball. So if they can figure that piece out, then they have a chance. But then the fourth person is Russell Westbrook. We haven't even mentioned him yet. And Russell's going to do Russell things.

He's going to rebound. He's going to push the ball up the floor. James wants the ball in transition. James wants you to throw it to him. He's going to push the ball up the floor. James wants the ball in transition. James wants you to throw it to him. He'll run in your way to get it, right? Russ and him didn't get along in Houston because when Russ got it, he just broke out. Yeah.

And James was left behind. And then the other thing that Ty is, Ty is an excellent defensive coach as well. And, you know, we don't talk about that. Everyone talks about the fit offensively where they switch everything and they have length. One of the things they lost in that trade is switchable players. I thought Batum was a very important player for them

because he had the ability to switch. He can switch on fives. Heck, the last game we played them last year, we beat them pretty big. But at the end, they put Batou and Joel at times. Because he's smart enough, he can do that. They've lost that element with that.

It'll be interesting how it fits, not only in the offensive end, but on the defensive end. Yeah, and Covington was playing better this year. That was another guy who can do some of that. If I were them, considering they had enough offense already, I would have been happier to put Powell in the trade. I like Powell as

a player. I would have rather kept the tune because I saw the same thing you did. I mean, there's a couple things. You mentioned Russell. How do you figure out Russell Westbrook in this? They're going to figure it out by trading him. He's going to be on Miami in like three weeks. That's how this plays out. I agree. He's going to turn out to be

the fall guy and he shouldn't be. You can already see it. The breadcrumbs are already being laid out. By the way, if I was Miami, I would go get him. I actually think that that's somebody who could really help them. He plays at a crazy intensity, which they'll love. He can help

with the rebounding. He gives them Lowry insurance. Lowry's 37. He's at a crazy intensity, which they'll love. He can help with the rebounding. He gives them Lowry insurance. Lowry's 37. He's going to get hurt at some point. If they could just steal him... Shooting is the look factor. He makes plays. He competes.

He's not a great defensive player. That's an area you always thought he should be, but he's not. The biggest thing in Miami, he would pass the body pad test every week. Every week. There's no doubt about that. I'm glad you

mentioned the offensive players piece with the Clippers. I was pretty consistent on this on Milwaukee. I didn't see it defensively. So you've gotten rid of Drew, who's almost a one-on-one. You've replaced him with Dame and can't guard anybody. All your wings are too slow.

And I don't see how you're going to play defense. And now three weeks in, they can't play defense. With the Clippers, I just don't see it. I don't think they have enough size. I don't think they can switch. I think there's certain types of players that are just going to kill them, especially like, you know, like the Matt, like wait till Maxie plays that team. Holy shit.

Who's going to guard? Who's going to guard Maxie in that team? And then on top of it, the too many balls thing, and you can see it already, the standing around. I don't think that's not how they were playing two weeks ago. And on top of it, to not have somebody when you're going against Jokic and Bede,

the Gobertowns, Nas Reed, threesome, night after night. And it's just like your Zubats with no Plumlee. They have no size at all. I think they could be out of the playoff picture in six weeks. Yeah, I don't know. I'm still going to say Jury out because of their talent, but I agree. I do think Zub is an underrated player.

I think he's a terrific player. He's just not Joel Embiid. For 22 minutes a game, not 40. Yeah, he's not either one of those guys. And so that's going to be a problem. I think the biggest part offensively, other than the ball holding, is the pace. You know, my biggest frustration with us last year is I tried to get us to get the ball up, throw the ball up the floor, and then if we didn't have anything, then get it back to James.

But a lot of times, James went and got the ball, and so you were forced to play at a pace you don't want to play at. The Clippers were playing at a really high pace and now they're slow again. And, you know, as I've always said, the slower you are, the bigger you better be because the slower you are now, the other team can get their hands on you. Right. You got to be like the Lakers. You have to have Davis and LeBron and Rui Hachimura, and then you can go slow. You can play any pace you want.

You know, so that's going to be interesting. It's their pace of play. How will it change? And then the biggest factor will be how much Paul George has the ball in his hands. Because if they can figure that piece out and still use James, and offensively, they could be really good. It's just going to be, it's going to take time. And I don't know if it'll work.

And I'm with you on that. I don't think it's going to take time. And I don't know if it'll work. And I'm with you on that. I don't think it's going to work. I've said that from the get-go. And then James had that press conference, which I thought made me feel worse about everything from a Clippers standpoint, where he's like, I'm not a system player. I am the system.

It seemed like he was complaining about how he was used last year. And it's like, you played with a guy who won the MVP. He averaged 33 points a game. You guys were 46-19 in the last 65 games. He led the league in minutes with the ball in time of possession. I thought that was alarming

that those were his feelings on last year. They literally gave you the car keys and the car and there wasn't even a backup driver. Well, Joel actually said that. You know, and so, Joel, one thing I've always loved about him and actually I didn't like about him

at the same time is his passive aggressiveness. He makes some great comments and that was funny as heck when he said, I don't know what you mean. I thought it was hilarious. But then in the same token, you wish you would say that if you're the best player, when guys are there, you know, just speak up.

I think he's doing that. Tyrese told me he's doing that more. Yeah. And I told you each year he got better. Like, yeah, Doyle's not a natural leader, right? He's just not. And watching him, the growth, we forget how young he is. And each year he's starting to do it and give himself to the team just a little bit more.

Or if he makes that step, Bill, watch out, NBA. Do you feel like that Harden trade was a ballmer trade or like an organization everybody was all in, let's do this? Yeah, that one I don't know um i'd probably say 50 50 on that one i think uh yeah uh just watching uh steve's enjoyment walking down the hallway when he came uh it told me that that steve had to be involved uh a lot on that one um because man that's if especially if you have to give him an extension and you're giving up those picks and now you have no drafts

for the rest of the decade, basically. It's a pretty bold trade. They're going all in. And you and me and a lot of other people don't know they went in the right way. They're going into a new arena next year. I think Steve in his dreams,, they're going into a new arena next year. I think

Steve and his dreams, if you could tap into Steve Ballmer's head, his dream is to go into that new arena putting up a banner. That's his dream. You get desperate at times. I don't know if desperate is the right word, but

you start making moves maybe that you would make if you wanted to be more patient. And they can't be patient. And when you look at the ages of Paul and Kawhi, it's been three years now, four years they've been together. This almost has to be the year. Can I correct you on something? Desperate is 100% the right word. It is absolutely the perfect word. I'm

going to read you West teams right now. So when we're taping this, the Clippers are three and six. They are tied for the 11th seed there with Portland and San Antonio and Utah and Memphis. The West is so good this year. You had, what was that year? When, what was it? Like 48 wins was the eighth seed in the West. And like Phoenix didn't make it that year. They were like 48 and 34 and they didn't make it. I don't know if it's going to be that high, but I do think it's going to be in the 45, 46 range. And if you are, like, I look at Memphis

and if Memphis is like seven and 18, when Ja comes back, like that's a cross off. They're not going to be able to get to 45 wins. I'm going to read you these West teams, and you stop when I list a team that you think the Clippers might be better than. Okay? Oh, that's good. I like that.

Denver. Minnesota. Dallas. I think they could be Dallas, even though Dallas owns them right now. I do think that Clippers can be Dallas. Do you think they could have a better record than Dallas this season?

With how Dallas is constructed, Dallas is 8-2 right now heading into tonight. I don't, and the only reason I don't is because if they do get it figured out, it's still going to take time. And dropping those games, they're going to have a lot to make up. And in the West, if you get behind, it's going to be hard to make up. All right.

So we have Oklahoma City. I think that's another team they'll beat. You're higher on Oklahoma City than I am. Sacramento? Sacramento? They're 5-4 right now, but they got Fox back. I think that's another team they can beat. Golden State?

Not right now, no. Lakers? Not right now. Phoenix Suns? No. New Orleans? Yeah. Who seems like kind of a mess.

Okay. Yeah. So you think the vulnerable teams, I just listed nine, not counting the Clippers, you think potentially Oklahoma? Oh, we didn't mention Houston. Oh, I guess.

I think you have to a little bit, but no, I think the Clippers are better than them right now. But it's awesome watching them play. All right. So you think there's a chance they get in the top eight still? I'm dubious, and I think this is going to get worse before it gets better. Let's quickly talk about some West teams that have been surprising.

We talked about Minnesota a little bit. Towns is still the X factor, but they have schmuck insurance insurance with towns with Nas Reed, right? Like it's like, Hey towns, we're really good. So either get on the bandwagon and stop doing dumb shit in the last eight minutes of games and stop getting in foul trouble.

We're just going to play Nas Reed over you and we'll be fine. Go, go bear though. Seemed unsalvageable last season. It seemed like one of the worst trades in the history of the league. And I still feel like what they gave up was insane. I will believe that till the day I die. But when you go to last summer,

they would have had to attach more picks just to trade him, it felt like. But now it feels different. So what happened? You know, I don't know is the question. I think Anthony Edwards happened. And I think just like in our world, especially right now, a balance of power is important. That team was Towns' team or D'Angelo Russell's team.

It's now Edwards' team. And there's no doubt about that. And so now that team is taking on Edwards' team. And there's no doubt about that. And so now that team is taking on Edwards' personality. Edwards is serious. Edwards is dead serious. He's tough. You know, I love him because he says whatever he says. Did you see him going at Draymond last week or like two days ago?

It was great. I loved it even more after that. He took the game over. He said before the year he wants to play golden state uh he said that before the year he wants to play golden state in the playoffs because dream on runs his mouth too much like he he's a guy like i think people get him mixed up bill because he says some of the funniest things ever said. They get them mixed up with that with his competitiveness. He is a deadly competitive person. He's got

the killer in him. He's got the Kobe, Michael Jordan killer in him. And most people on earth don't have that. He has shown that over and over again. And he showed it the other night again. He showed it against Boston. Oh, I want to talk about

that one of the reasons I was against that trade was because I felt the time I mean the picks they gave up was one of the stupidest things I'll never get over that but I just felt like the timetable was off where you have Edwards they make the trade he's turning. And it's like the history of the NBA says 24, 25 is when it starts happening. Right. So now you're dead. That's like year three, year four of go bear at that, that point. So it's like, you're trading all this stuff, but your guy that is eventually going to be your franchise guy is still three years away from being the franchise guy. The revelation was team USA. And then the first three weeks of this season. And Kerr was on it. I'm sure you've talked to Kerr about it.

He was just like, this guy's incredible. We had no idea that he was this. And you start hearing that. Now the timetable's up where it's not 2026. It might be 2024 with him, which you know this. NBA history is really unusual for a 22-year- the, like the best guy in a contender. Yeah. I think that may be ticking a little bit earlier now because guys come in

earlier guys. So many more guys are young and you know, these high school guys, um, we're on, I was on, I'm on the global, uh,

committee about trying to improve our, our game. And I think someone, one of the guys who tracked it said, these guys play 110 games a summer, the high school guys. Oh my God. 110 games, which is absurd. It really is. And the difference is the European players play like 60 or 50 games and they practice all the time, you know, and that's the difference. And so anyway, I do think these young guys are grownups

more when they come to the league, but I just think Edwards is different. I do think these young guys are grownups more when they come to the league. But I just think Edwards is different. I just think just his improvement, Bill, his shot, his improvement in his shot from one year to the next is unbelievable. His body, he's got LeBron Michael body. And then his intensity and his toughness. Steve Kerr, going into the Olympics, Steve Kerr and Ty and Spoh

and Grant Hill, they thought that Anthony Edwards would be the guy that came off the bench and be a role player and like the seventh or eighth guy. They had the one exhibition game and then from that point on, Anthony Edwards started and he was seventh or eighth guy. Yeah. They had the one exhibition game. And then from that point on,

Anthony was started and he was the number one guy. You're talking about elite. That was just this summer. It's amazing. I can't believe it. He's, I'm thinking about like takeover ability, which I don't know.

I might've just made that verb, but an NBA player that can take over four minutes of a game on both sides. That's kind of the last level if you're a superstar. And all the great players we've had over the last 40 years could just grab a game and that's it. They were just taken. And this is something that Embiid was starting to do last year too. It's really rare for a guard to do it.

Michael did it. Michael did it. Dwayne Wade in the mid-2000s could do it. It's crazy to say this, but I feel like Isaiah Thomas could do it, though. You're Isaiah Thomas, not the mid-2010s, but he could stamp his imprint on a game for half a quarter. He couldn't do it defensively, but he could definitely do it with his intensity and his drive.

It's funny with edwards though austin a year and a half ago or you know beginning of last year we were just telling my players and he told me two guys he said hey dad if you can get nice read you got to get him this dude uh he's a starter but he'll come off the bench he'll be a great and then he said i'm gonna tell you something you're just to say that I'm nuts. Anthony Edwards is going to be a top five player within the next year. And when he wants to, he's the number one non-center defensive player in the league. And I said, get out of here.

That's the one I said, get out of here. He said, I'm telling you. He said he wants to. He asked every game, I want to guard that guy. He said, I'm telling you. He said he wants to. He asked every game, I want to guard that guy. He wants to be on those guys. And I actually threw out Holiday. And he said, okay, Holiday hit him. But I'm telling you, when he turns it up,

you're not going to score on him. And I think Austin may be right on that one. Well, that was the revelation from the Celtic game. Because they had him and McDaniels, who, as mentioned earlier, they didn't have McDaniels for the playoffs because he punched a wall. But they have those two guys to throw at Brown and Tatum, and the Celtics couldn't get it. They couldn't get into within 25 feet of the basket. And you throw that combined with Gobert

just kind of patrolling the paint. It's like, all right, this is something. And I'm a guy that thought that trade was one of the dumbest trades ever. But when you're watching the theory of it, you're like, all right, this kind of looks like they might get there. Conley's the big guy. Conley's the big swing guy for them if they can get nine months out of him.

Yeah, he's the swing guy. And so is Towns. Because Towns has to just play right. That doesn't mean he has to dominate. That doesn't even mean he has to be an all-star player which at times he can be. He's not a good shooter. He's a great three-point shooter.

He just has to play right and he has to play smart. Good luck with that. He's 28 years old. He might be who you are at this point. But the last couple of years, he's been the best player. So everything goes through him. Now, with him not being, I think you can probably get him in a role

that may fit him even better. Before, you had to give him the ball. You had to play through him. Everything went through him. Now that's not the case. And so it'll be interesting how he handles it and how he can flourish in it if he does handle it. Well, I like how you put it about how it was Towns' team

and that was part of the problem. And now it's just clearly Edwards' team. And the shit that he was talking in the Boston game to Tatum and backing it up and when he took over that game and then same thing with Golden State. It made me think a little bit. You had this happen with the Clippers in the 2015 season, which was dramatically assassinated by Josh Smith and Corey Brewer. But something happened with Blake that year where Blake was all of a sudden, I don't know,

one of the four best guys in the league. Maybe he was number three, maybe he was number four, but it kind of became his team and you could feel it. And it had been Chris's team. And then it was like, oh wait, this is like, something's happening here with Blake. And that was what made it seem like they were going to make the, you guys are gonna make the finals that year. Then it just falls apart in nine minutes. But we have seen teams where the torch kind of moves to somebody else. And I do think that's happened with this, but could you feel that when it was happening with Blake that year? Yeah. It's because we decided to play through Blake a lot. You remember, you know, Blake, Blake, when I got there, they put them on a post a lot and, um, watching them pass. I don't know one of the scouts.

I want to say Dave Severance. He's an old Clippers scout. I was sitting there talking to him when I first took the job. He said, you know, Blake is an elite passer. I said, elite? He said, no, he's an elite passer. No one knows it. Then I called Tony Brown,

who was an assistant coach for years in different teams. And Tony had his rookie year, and I wanted to know about him. And I said, what do you think about his passing? He said, he's one of the best passers in the league. They just don't play through him. You remember moving to the elbow? And playing Blake through the elbow, he was unbelievable at that spot.

Great passing. Him and Chris had their thing which was not great uh because chris needed the ball too but they worked it out pretty well and uh yeah we were really good the difference is here is so far and i don't know this because i'm not in minnesota it looks like towns is accepting it it does does. Yeah. And I'm telling you, that's what ruins teams. I always use that. The Beatles are the band theory.

All these great bands all break up because of egos. How many bands stay together? No, Rolling Stones may be the only one. And even at times, guys, that's what ruins teams. That's what ruins great bands is egos when role players

want to be the stars and all of a sudden, the guy who started the band is no longer the star. Someone else in the band is. And if you've got the right ego, you can have longevity and you can be champions.

But if you don't, you can't win. I wrote, I remember, the third Miami year, I wrote a piece about what you just laid out about the concept of Chris Bosh and it's a band and LeBron and Wade are like the lead singer and the lead guitarist.

But Chris Bosh has to accept that he's the bassist. And if he doesn't, and we'll play your one song per concert, right? You'll get your four minutes. The lead singer will go take a drink of water and you get to play your one song. But, right? You'll get your four minutes. The lead singer will go take a drink of water and you get to play your one song. But this is who you are on the band. And that's it.

You're not going to be in the front. You're going to be over to the side a little bit. People will respect you. But to make the band work, you have to be this. And it's amazing how many NBA teams have fallen apart. I mean, you had it a little bit like with Ray, which we've talked about where Ray had to accept like hey it wasn't quite the basis but it was like hey man sometimes you're going to be over

there you're not going to be in the front of the stage and that's it the third guy always does just look at the history of the game it's the third guy and it all comes down to if the third guy you think I always use Clay Thompson as a better example even than ray right uh clay thompson had already won a title you know and then kevin durant comes and clay's numbers drop that that was because he had to be the third guy but he accepted it yeah and they and they kept winning ray accepted it um ray didn't like it clay Clay didn't like it. No one likes it because their ego still tells them I could be the number one guy. But I'm going to do what the coach asked me to do. And I remember Pat Riley said it years ago. Cooperation is the key to winning. If you have a team that cooperates, when you hear the players talking about us, meaning coaches and players, and the coaches talking about us, meaning coaches and players, you're on to something.

And you see it every year in the finals. And so that's going to be the key with all these teams that we're talking about. You know, Boston has kind of figured theirs out. Tatum, that's the advantage that they have, the chemistry. but Boston has kind of figured theirs out. Totally agree. That's the advantage that they have, the chemistry. Hold on. There's one thing they haven't figured out. There's been a couple.

I just signed a $304 million contract. I'm going to take this shot. Jalen Brown moment. I'm monitoring. I'm not worried about it yet, but the Minnesota game was interesting. 10 seconds left. They get a stop, and he ends, but the Minnesota game was interesting. Ten seconds left, they get a

stop, and he ends up with the ball mid-court. And I thought Mads should have called a timeout. He didn't. And then Jalen's like, I'm just going to take the end of the game. I just don't think he would have done that last year. So I'm just monitoring. I'm not nervous about it yet. I think he should have done that last year, you know, at times.

That's all I would say. You're going to go to Jason Tatum nine out of ten times. But the one time that Jalen Brown does have it, he's got to feel confident enough that I can do it. I'll tell you, I didn't feel confident about his chances against Jaden

McDaniels on ISO. That was what I was going nuts about that one. We're going to take one more break. I'm going to throw three more things at you. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

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What does possible sound like for your business? It's the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit mx.ca slash business platinum. All right, just quickly, the NBA title odds. This is FanDuel. This is Tuesday morning. And some of this has to do with what's already been bet. Like the Bucs have the second best odds, which is stupid. The Bucs have better odds than Denver, which is just completely insane.

But Minnesota, which was 50 to one two weeks ago, is still at 28 to one. And I still don't think people totally see it. Like to me, I like your in-season tournament thing. Like I do feel like that's a team I could see winning the in-season tournament and then people going, wait a second, what's going on here? We got to talk about Houston because,

I mean, you love coaching. You're a coach. You're a coach's coach. You're one of the deans of the coaches. So E-May goes in. We don't have to talk about what happened to him in Boston. But goes to Houston. Houston was a train wreck last year.

I'm sure when you were playing them, you're like, hey guys, enjoy today. They don't play defense and whoever gets the ball and the Rockets over half court just gets to shoot. That's the rule of that team. It was an AAU game. Yeah, it was an AAU game. And within three weeks,

they look like a professional basketball team. They're playing defense. He's doing all that. Like, I loved EMA when he was a Celtics coach. I thought he did an awesome job because that was not an easy team to coach. And he treated the dudes like men. He yelled at them. He got pissed.

Like, he was just, he did a great job. And I can already see it. Like Jalen Green the other night, they still win. Jalen Green's one in 13. And there and I can already see it. Like Jalen green the other night, they still win. Jalen green's one in 13. And there was a couple of times when he just pulls Jalen green and he's like, he's trying to motivate him, keep him focused, but he'll also chew him out if he has to. Um,

and then everything's running through Shangoon who grew two inches and now it looks like discount Yokeage. But I actually think this Houston team's kind of real. I don't know. I think they're at least a playing team, right? Yeah, they are. And listen, bringing E-May in and paying him, and I know that sounds nuts, but it's very important.

And paying him and giving him a five-year deal told every player that not only there's a new sheriff in town but this sheriff has two guns you know he has two guns and it's so important the messaging that that franchises and organizations give when you don't do that let's say they you know Steven Silas so I think could have been an excellent coach. Didn't pay him a lot, never backed him. You know, came in with a new GM, bunch of new players, no chance.

Like he had no chance in that situation. And what he has done. It's like the Washington coach right now. Yeah. Like talk about a tough job, West Unseld Jr. Good luck on that team. Yeah, you got jordan pool throwing towels already and you know um and west i'm telling you west is a

excellent coach but he's got to deal with this stuff and so he may comes in and he does two things number one the players know he has two guns and number two the organization had it looks like has gotten out of his way and said you're going to be the culture driver and you can tell like he went out and got just ballers toughness and pros jeff green now no one talks about that it's a good sign just an excellent guy in the locker room um right you know um this is couldn't be a more perfect place for brooks brooks is nuts i love him because he's nuts but what he is he's deadly serious about competition he's deadly serious bill about competition and these young players and this is something I'm telling you we're going to have to talk about in another show, is these young American players better watch out.

Because the European players are better players coming into the league. They're better prepared coming into the league. And they're competitors. And a lot of our young guys are not. They play six games in a day. You know, they come to the league and they want to put on a show. Kevin Garnett always told my story in the locker room because I would walk in every time we played in L.A.,

every single time. All right, this is not a show. This is a competition. Anybody here that wants to put on a show for all the Hollywood actors, you're not playing tonight. This is going to be a competition. And I think that's what Brooks brings. That's what E-May brings.

That's what Ben Fleet brings. That's what Jeff Green brings. And now these young guys are playing in games to compete. And they're different. They're just watching them. Even the first week, they're like, man, they're different. They have a different walk and they're playing right. I don't know how good they can be, how deep they are, they're like, man, they're different. They have a different walk, and they're playing right.

I don't know how good they can be, how deep they are, but it's just great to see. And Jalen Green, I'm honest, I didn't know if he could be this guy. I didn't. The jury was out for me. I'm like, can he ever turn into a serious basketball player? Or is his image and doing all the other stuff more important? Watching him, I think he's going to turn into what we wanted him to turn into oh well he's lucky because he met ema at the crucial point in his career i think there's another version where he's a good stats bad

team guy but i actually i really like i really like watching the rockets i think that's one of my three or four favorite league pass teams and i I like what I've seen from him. He's doing stuff. He can have a bad game and still impact the game, which I just don't think he would have known how to do last year. I'm glad you mentioned the competitive thing in the foreign. I actually talked to Austin about the foreign player versus the culture that we've created thing. And even if you looked at Team USA, like the guys on that team that stood out, they all had these unconventional backgrounds. They weren't like that typical

I was in AAU since age nine. And then you see these foreign guys come in and I don't know, I think there's something to it. Even somebody like Shengun, these guys are tough, they're competitive and it's kind of the opposite of when you were playing. We were like, oh, the foreign guys are soft. Yeah're competitive. And it's kind of the opposite of when you were playing.

We were like, oh, the foreign guys are soft. Yeah, they all were soft. When you saw a foreign guy, you had a good game. That's how you – you know, it's funny. It's like the Larry Bird thing. Are you going to put this guy on me? This is embarrassing. Right.

But you think about it. And in our conversation – I didn't even notice when our conversation yesterday, it was me and Coach K, Nico Harrison, Troy Weaver. I mean, it's a bunch of people on this thing. And the one guy who charts the game says that the American players in the summer high school kids play six games a week yeah they have one practice the european players have one game a week and they have six practice i mean that's and then the second part is because you have all these games you stop being competitive i watch austin play and you know growing up and it hurt him. Number one, this stupid ranking stuff. You're the number one player

in the country. Who knows where you're at? Number two, you play three or four games in a day. It used to drive me crazy because Austin would not even at halftime, he wouldn't take a shot. He would just sit and I remember walking across the court one day,

and I was not that type of parent. I said, hey, you're going to shoot some free throws. You're going to warm up. He said, Dad, I got five more games today. Right. I'm going to play. And that's the other thing. I'm going to play 48 minutes because the stars in the AU never come out.

They can be up 40. They're not coming out. And so it drove me nuts watching this. And it's even worse now. And so it has to be fixed because we have the talent. What we've lost, the players are far more talented than we ever were. It's not even close, but they don't know how to play. They don't know how to play team basketball. Everyone has these individual coaches. And in Europe, they have team coaches. They do three-on-three stuff.

And we got to get back to that, or I'm telling you, American players, you're going to lose jobs. Who was the last five MVP? Oh, yeah. Well, my old guy, my old guy thing looks at it and goes, all right, well, part of this is the season's too long. And I know some people have said this where, like, talk to Steve Kerr about

it. When you have 82 games over six months and you're just moving from place to place, you have no time to practice, right? So you're kind of stuck with the team you have in November. How are you going to change it? There's no way to change it. Now, they've fixed a couple of the things about it, but they haven't really fixed it. If they really gave a shit at the NBA, I think the schedule would be 70 games and they would cut 12 out

and it would just be a better product. 70 games would be great. The practice, I'm talking more high school. No, I know, but I'm saying even in the NBA, you're still not practicing. You're still not practicing enough. And when you do, especially now, and this is every coach I talk to now, it's the same frustration. You look at your schedule and you have three days off.

All right, man, we're going to have great practice. We're going to have two great practices. You show up for practice, and then you see, walking across the court, your medical team walking towards your office. And if I could close and lock my door, you want to do it because you know. They're not coming to say hi. They're coming to give you a list. All right, doc, today, no Joelle, no Dr. String.

Yeah, or their loads are too high. And we feel like today would be another off day. And I would say, well, we had yesterday off. You know, and so a lot of that is going on. So you have no practice at the NBA level. You have no practice with the youth players because they're just playing games. And then the other thing, it's just,

to me, like it's a spiritual thing. The AAU just teaches people to jump around and just hop on the next best team and oh, those, and you go over there and then that's kind of who you become

as a professional athlete, right? You're just used to bouncing around from the time you're age 10. And it's so much harder to have a team concept. And I think it's interesting that the guys like the Curry types are the anomalies now.

The Curry-Dramon Clay, that might be the last stand for people like that. But you think about all the winning teams happen. And I keep going back, the potion hasn't changed since Larry, since Koozie. The potion is still the same as what Red All-Bot taught. You have to play team ball, You have to sacrifice. You have to play together. And you need continuity. And you need continuity. And so we don't teach that enough and we have to get back

to doing that. Yeah. So you're in on Houston as a playing team. I am. Last thing on my list. Are you worried about Milwaukee yet? No. Did you see him about Milwaukee yet? No. Did you see him in person yet? I have not seen him in person.

I'm not worried about him as far as they're still going to be in that top three category. The two things that I saw in the trade, and I said it to you, I said it right away. Number one, they're going to win close games now. If it's a one-point game, they have a closer.

And I thought Milwaukee's weakness is they never had a closer. You look at that Miami series. Last year, every game came down the stretch of the game. Milwaukee couldn't make shots, and Jimmy Butler did. Well, now they have Dame, and Dame is going to make shots at the end of the game, Milwaukee couldn't make shots and Jimmy Butler did. Well, now they have Dane and Dane is going to make shots at the end of the game. Then I said, but number two, they're

going to take a major hit defensively. And not just because of Dane. Dane is not a defensive player like Drew Holiday or not even insane, right? But I don't think janice is as good as he was defensively uh i think lopez has gotten older um you know so each one of their guys have taken a little bit of a step back why do you think janice isn't the same i haven't heard that one before what are you seeing yeah i just think he does so much now uh it adds up yeah i think i think at times it can be. At the end of a game, if Giannis is fresh. And that's where I'm hoping that Lillard helps Giannis because Giannis won't feel the need to do as much offensively and may be fresher at the end of games.

That's where I think Lillard could help, especially in the playoffs. So it's super early. I don't want to over I don't want to over panic or anything, but two things that I was worried about with the Dame trade, like whoever got them, one was the defense. And it's just like, like when Maxie plays that team,

he's just going to light them up. They don't have a, he's going to be on the roster. And unfortunately for the Bucks, there's 10 to 12 guys who are at least in that maxi kind of sphere. The other thing, when you get older, and you know this because you became an old NBA player once. Quickly. I'm good three times a week.

That drops to two times a week. And then it drops to one time a week. And you look at some of these Dame Bucs scorers. He was three for 17 last night. He had a two for 12 before. He had a five for 15. Those are three of the eight games he's played. I just don't think, I think as you get older,

especially when you're a guard, he can still get to the line. But I just think when you hit your mid-30s as a guard, it's not a three times a week thing anymore. Yeah, it isn't. I think they are in way better shape than we were. I'll say that. Well, that's true.

I also think we can't forget that Dane didn't play last year for the most part. And so that's where I sit early on. Give him a month or two just to get back to it. When you miss a year, I don't care who you are. It takes a minute. So I do think offensively, especially and new team for the first time in his career, I think it's going to take a

minute for him to get comfortable offensively. But you're right. I mean, the thing about what you just said, that's funny about the one, the three games too. I wish I remember when I was my last couple of years, I wish I could actually choose which nights they were. Right. That's the thing that people don't understand. I wish it would just be the Thursday nights or whatever.

I'd say, hey, tonight I'm going to not have it. But there were games that I would show up late in my career. I remember Bob Hill, even Pop, because Pop was the GM, they all talk about it. I was the defensive player my last year. I just came in and got stops.

And we were playing Detroit. And Alan Houston was on fire. And I used to joke with Benny Del Negro. I used to call him Kerosene. Because whenever I came in the game, the guy he was guarding was on fire. And I had to put it out. Well, I come in the game, three possessions in a row. Alan Houston, shoot, shoot, just flying by me.

I call a timeout. Matt Bob Hill, I called a timeout. I said, hey, come get me. I was like, I'm too old. My legs are not working today. I'm sorry. Like, that's how you felt. Like, I'm trying.

I just don't have it today. And that's the thing when you get older, and that's when you felt. Like, I'm trying. I just don't have it today. And that's the thing when you get older, and that's when you see these fluxes. Even with LeBron, as dominant as he is, every once in a while he'll have one of those. What we used to call as a player, he's having an old game. Right, old guy game. And the smart guys like LeBron can still have an impact

because he can pass. He can rebound. He can do other things. But when you're just an offensive guy, those old games stand out more. The Jay Crowder injury should not mean as much as it meant to that team. But he was actually guarding

the best perimeter dude on the other team in the games that I was watching. So now he's out for eight weeks. It's not like they're going to miss the playoffs, but I don't think they're going to have a top two record. I agree with that. Yeah, I think it's going to take a while for them. I still don't want to see them in April.

The only other thing that's interesting with the contenders is just how bad Denver's free throw shooting has been. I like teams that, like, that's one thing with Milwaukee. Like, you get the ball to Dame, he's just going to end the game. He's got that, like the Celtics said that with Ray Allen. Denver's got Jokic isn't making free throws this year. And then they have the Aaron Gordon piece too. And now Murray's out.

And I feel like it's a little easier for them to blow games late. All right, before we go. They also lost two guys. And no one's talking about that. And I'm telling you, this Murray thing is something we better keep a watch on. Because they're not the same team with Murray, without Murray. They're just not. The two-man game with anybody else is not the same with Murray.

So they could drop quickly until Murray comes back. Yeah, the one thing with the West is everybody might just be in the high 40s. The one seed might have like 51 wins. But it is good for, like Dallas had an easy schedule, but they also got their feet under them. Lucas playing great. Kyrie hasn't done anything crazy yet. Knock on wood, we're at the 10 game mark.

But it is ripe for one of these teams that they can just stay healthy and keep banking wins. All of a sudden we look up and we're like, oh my God. All right, before we go, I wanted to do a quick segment at the end of every pod we do, because you're going to be on every three weeks. Some sort of NBA history story from the 80s, 90s. So I want you to tell this time, and you can pick the story next time, but I want you to tell the story of this time of how you were healthy enough to be in the 93 finals, but they didn't put you on the playoff roster. That's a great story. I'll try to make it quick. I tore my ACL on Christmas, right before Christmas.

And Riley had promised me, we did this crazy program, Bill, where there was a car in my driveway every morning at 4.30 in the morning. I would get up, I would drive, it would take me to the city, and I would work out until I got home at darkness. I mean, it was an intense program. Well, playoffs come and I'm cleared. But they said I wouldn't be cleared until the Eastern Finals. Right back then. So that year that's Michael Jordan. This is the Charles Smith game season. Yeah. Back year. No, that was the following year because Michael, that was his retirement year. Oh, so this is the 94 season. This is the year we went to the finals. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. So this is the Indiana Reggie Miller.

Exactly. So right, Michael, I mean, Pat, back then you had to set your roster, which is insane. And that's why it's called the Doc Rivers rule. You had to set your roster before the playoffs started and you couldn't change it anymore. And so Riley brings me into the office and tells me, listen, I know you're going to be healthy. I just don't know how good you'll be by the Eastern Finals. And by the way, it's only 12 players back then. It's not 15. Yeah, it's only 12. So if he plays you, he only has 11 for the playoffs. And he was worried that if one of the guards went down, then they would be in trouble.

So he told me he wasn't going to activate me. And that was the big, he read, you know, Riley even put in his book, Jeff Van Gundy actually said they were, him and Dick Carter were standing at the door because they thought Riley and I were going to come to blows. I mean, it was, it was one nasty fight argument because, you know, I was promising anyway. And I got as a coach, when I became a coach, I actually understood it a lot more, that it was a harder decision. Well, anyway, we get to the Eastern Finals, and we're practicing, and I'm rolling. I'm playing unbelievable.

We get to the Finals, and I remember the practice in Houston. I was just having a huge practice, but I couldn't play. And I always think that's one of the years, like you remember Starks goes two for 18. Yeah. Um, and Rolando Blackman and coach got into a argument. And so he was on ice.

And the only reason Starks stayed in that game is because I was in street club and that bugs me to this day. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that was did riley ever say did he ever say after yeah yeah yeah like i blew it you know i'm a stubborn i i'm not i can be stubborn as hell and me and riley i'm gonna say we had a five year no talk you You know, Riley would send me stuff like little letters or quotes. I was not

having it. I was not talking. I was done. And you know, we finally broke the ice and then we've become really close again. But yeah, he actually said it in one of his books. He said the worst decision he's ever made. He said, when I thought about it,

it was Corey Gaines who, he said, we're going to play him anyway. Right. You know what I mean? But he said, and then following you, the NBA changed the rule, where now it's, I think then they changed the rule to each series, and now it's game to game, which always should have been. But that rule killed me.

Yeah, that's a stupid rule. So they named the rule after you. Yeah, that's what coaches call it. And I remember David Stern calling it the Doc Rivers rule, sarcastically, of course. Right. Brent, man, that's a tough one. Well, you got the ring anyway, eventually.

Got the ring eventually, yeah. All right. All right, that was it for Doc Rivers Storytime. Well, you got the ring anyway, eventually. Got the ring eventually, yeah. All right. All right. That was it for Doc Rivers' story time. Doc, this was fun. Next time I see you or talk to you on this podcast, it'll be like right around the in-season tournament. It'll be right time for in-season championship time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. How are you enjoying the ESPN stuff, by the way? You like all the games? I love it. I'm having a ball. I really am, yeah. All right. How are you enjoying the ESPN stuff, by the way? You like all the games? I love it. I'm having a ball. I really am, Bill. It's great. It's actually good for me, too, because I get to kind of watch these other

teams and other practices. I don't know who said it. I want to say Dick Harder. He said, never underestimate someone else's crap. Right. When you're coaching a head coach, you think, man, our team, we're falling apart uh these guys don't get along and then you you talk to another coach the next day and you realize oh our team's pretty

good right i find that every time i talk to these coaches are they talking to you during the games or people walking by and saying like what's up doc, doc? Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm getting a lot of assistance. You know, it's funny. I guess if I have a regret as a coach, I pretty much stuck to my group. Didn't care to want to know about anybody else's coaches, teams. And it's interesting now

I'm getting to meet all these different coaches that I have never met. And so it's been really a cool journey. Oh, that's awesome. All right, well, we'll talk to you in December. Good to see you. Happy holidays. Thank you, you too.

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You can read him on Puck. You can listen to his podcast, The Town. And I don't have you on this podcast enough because I always feel like you're covering things on The Town that we would have talked about. Well, I am always available to you whenever you would like me. Well, I'm kind of double dipping a topic you've covered,

but I'm really fascinated by it. And I wanted to talk about it on this podcast about what happened with Netflix in 2023, where, you know, when we were growing up in the, in the seventies and early eighties, the monoculture was the three TV networks. It was ABC and it was CBS and it was NBC and all the programming that came out of those three places set the tone for all pop culture stuff, things people had in common at school or in college. In the 80s, episodes of The Cosby Show would get a 50 share. That means that 50% of the televisions that were on at that time were watching the Cosby show. So when I got to college and I could draw and I'm writing a column and I could drop references from Brady Bunch shows I watched or Battle Network Stars,

all these things, because I knew everybody else had watched it. Now we're hitting this point, like with people like my kids, where they have TikTok, they have YouTube, they have 700 million different TV channels, all the 70 years of movies you'd watch. And it just felt like everything was splintering. And I think one interesting thing that's happened in 2023 is Netflix has brought that monoculture back, was going to be four people left at the end. I'm starting to feel like there's going to be one and it's going to be Netflix and Netflix is going to be the Premier League, basically. And then all these other places are the other places and they're just not going to matter as much. Or maybe a better example is like Netflix is the NBA and then everybody else is like the EuroLeague and all these different places. Is it crazy to think that that's what's happening or do you see that too? It's certainly going that direction. I don't know that it'll be that drastic in the sense that other streamers won't have viable businesses. They'll probably be three or four viable streaming businesses that continue. But the moat that Netflix is drawing around itself

right now is pretty impressive. And it's happening for a number of reasons. First and foremost, the way that the streaming economy is evolving, all of the other players are being forced to cut costs. Warner Brothers Discovery, which owns Max, they are in an awful situation where they are being forced to license some of their biggest titles to Netflix to generate money to pay down debt. So you're seeing HBO shows on Netflix. You're seeing the DC movies on Netflix. These were the prime drivers of the value proposition on the max service. And now you're seeing them on Netflix. So you're just contributing to the feeling amongst the consumer that it's all going to

be on Netflix. I mean, that's the one thing. And then the second, Disney's in the same problem where they can't invest as much in their streaming service because they've got all these other problems going on in the rest of the company and they need to get to profitability on the streaming service and all these other companies are losing money and netflix is making money on their streamer and then i think the global thing the fact that netflix got to scale got to 250 million subscribers worldwide it's really hard to catch up to that and none of these other companies have figured out

how to grow in all these different countries around the world. Because remember, only a third of Netflix subscribers are in the US. Most are around the world. And they like the Hollywood content and a lot of the American shows travel. But Netflix is producing originals in all of these different countries, and they're just pulling away so i i agree uh the the the ability to have a global hit and a you know water cooler moment it's increasingly netflix and then maybe disney for some of the big marvel star wars stuff but it's pretty much netflix and everyone else which was not the case at the start of the year. And that's why I feel like something significant happened this year. And you mentioned

the key thing. WB selling HBO shows and other stuff to Netflix, I thought was absolutely startling because I remember, and I've talked about this before, but when ESPN was selling 30 for 30 initially, and I think it was like 2011 or 2012, and we were selling the old shows to Netflix that we'd already done. We were like, oh my God, we got more money for this? This is crazy. It's like free money. And nobody was realizing this was how Netflix was building their business. They're like, hey, we'll take that. We'll take that. Here's some money for that. And everybody was just delighted to take it. Oh, great. You'll take that from me? Awesome. And then eventually in the mid-2010s, people all looked at each other and went, wait a second. We got it. Yeah. What are we doing? We've created a monster.

We've got to beat these guys. And that led to the late 2010s and then the COVID era where it did feel like people were going toe to toe withtoe with it and it felt like Netflix was weakening. Remember the stock was going down and it just felt like, oh man, people have caught up to them. Right. In early 2022, there was the great Netflix correction where the stock market essentially turned on Netflix for a while and said, you know what? All of this spend, spend, spend to grow, grow, grow mentality. That's not what we want anymore. You missed your subscriber numbers. The interest rates are rising. Cheap money is not going to last forever. So you need to show some profitability here. And there was a time,

I think, for most of 2022, where people were like, what are they doing? They've spent so much. It's just a firehose of content. They scrambled. They launched an advertising tier on the service. The ad tier felt panicky. It was something they said they would never do. And all of a sudden, it's like, nope, we love ads now. We're going to do it. That's why I think the sports thing is the next frontier. Netflix keeps saying over and over again, we are not interested in sports. We are very happy doing this ancillary shoulder content like Beckham and all the sports docs. We do not want live sports,

but it's inevitable. It's inevitable. Well, two things were inevitable with them. One was they were going to crack down on the subscriber things, which they finally did. And that was, you know, if you're going to criticize anything

they've done in the last 10 years, waiting, if you're going to criticize anything they've done in the last 10 years, waiting as long as they did to crack down on that stuff was pretty stupid in retrospect. Well, they felt they didn't need to. The growth narrative was still there, and there was that infamous tweet, you know, love is sharing a password,

where they were kind of winking and actively encouraging that because they wanted to get the Netflix brand to be ubiquitous and everyone to equate streaming with Netflix. So in that way, it kind of worked, but it created a culture of piracy, essentially, amongst Netflix fans. And then they had to crack down. And I think it's actually been working. The evidence is that people are being nudged into subscribing.

You're allowed to add people for a certain extra fee and they have this ad tier now that's cheaper. So if you don't want to pay the full boat. So I think, you know, the weird dynamic is that Netflix actually makes more money if you are paying less but taking ads. So they're kind of encouraging people to take the ad tier which is seems counterintuitive because they you pay them less money but they really want to build up this ads business and get it to scale now because it's still a very small portion of their subscriber

base and you know what would be great for an ads business live sports well I was at my mother-in-law's house yesterday with my wife. Like three days ago, we logged into Netflix and something flashed up and it said, is this your home address? Is this where you want to run your Netflix accounts? Are you a freeloader? Yeah. And I was like, yes, it is my home address. So we're at my mother-in-law's house and her Netflix doesn't work anymore. And she was watching some show and she's like, no, that's okay. I don't need it.

And we're like, let us get you Netflix. So we went through the whole process. We signed her up. All of a sudden there were these three tiers and it was like, you can get the ads or it's like the two account tier. And then it was like, you get six accounts and the best possible quality.

And we're arguing about it. And we're like, oh, we'll get the middle tier at six. All of a sudden she had Netflix. And it was like, this is happening all over the country, especially with people over 60 and people under 20

who were glomming onto their parents' Netflix or their friends or whatever. It's over. And I just feel like the subscriber numbers are going to just climb. I talk about this with producer Craig all the time. Cause he's, he's like still glomming onto his parents. And I'm like, dude, you're going to be 30 years old soon. You're a married man.

Like get your own subscriber base here. At least go to the $15 tier, Craig. Come on. So they, so they did that. And I think that was, that was a big piece of it. But then what's happened with HBO this year is another story. So Succession goes away in June. This is the longest I think in my entire life that HBO hasn't had

a water cooler show. It's funny you say that because this time I feel like early, early in this year and last year we were talking about how they had like a trifecta in a row.

They had White Lotus, they had Last of Us, and they had House of the Dragon which was a big hit. And then Succession. And then Succession. And then

I think because of the strike, I mean, they basically said this. Well, they pushed everything. Yeah, they pushed everything. Yeah, they pushed a lot of stuff. And they're trying to essentially make the toothpaste last for six months instead of three months because of the strike. So they're stretching it out and diluting it down where they said on the earnings call this past couple of weeks ago that because of that their subscriber numbers were actually down at max and it's and they just depend on that hbo content so much like there was supposed to be

the true detective uh that was supposed to come back jody foster and true detective there was supposed to be a couple other shows that they've pushed and they and max is so dependent on this that it really shows. Plus now, they're signaling to their customer base that if you want to watch these movies or these old HBO shows, you can just go to Netflix. It's unbelievable. So you think like

where the heights they were with Succession and six months later, they have no signature show. The whole concept of a Sunday night and Sunday night mattering, and this has been in the works for a couple years, but now I'm really feeling it. It feels like that Thursday night, Friday morning

when new stuff goes on the streamers and the new video on demand stuff comes. That feels like the new Sunday night in a lot of ways. That sets the tone for the weekend. You could feel that happen in the last few years. I even remember talking about it when we were trying to figure out Music Box for season weekend. You could feel that happen in the last few years. I even remember talking about it when we were trying to figure out Music Box for season one. And it was like, we're actually better off on Thursdays heading into the weekend because that's when a lot of people consume stuff.

But I wonder the concept of, first of all, nobody under 25 goes to cable stations anymore, right? So could HBO's Sunday night be in trouble potentially because Sunday night isn't a thing anymore? I don't know. The one thing they do have back is John Oliver and the engagement numbers on John Oliver on Sundays and Mondays are really, really good. But I mean, Bill Maher on Friday, same thing. That's true. That is true.

Is it a Sunday night thing for Oliver or not? Yeah, it's true. But I'm just saying like those two shows keep bringing people back. They're so valuable to the platform because they, they are a regular habit for people. Clearly you're not watching the gilded age season two, but a lot of people in my life are. Yeah,

no, it's a, it's a show, but it's not, it's a thing, whatever, but it's not the prestige, you know,

the, the kind of thing that everybody associates with HBO. And I think part of that is, is they have had a little lull and it's strike related. They're just like dragging it out. You know, we'll see. They,

I'm not worried about the HBO creative engine. Like they will deliver. They will have. Yeah, you're right. You're betting, you're betting on a four decade infrastructure. This is just the first time to me that they felt like legitimately vulnerable,

especially farming out shows to Netflix. Who's who's the place they're trying to beat. I thought it was crazy. I also thought- The truth is they're not trying to beat Netflix anymore. They've really just turned the wagons on that ambition. They're not trying to be the global television network. Really, only Netflix is trying to be the global television network. And all of the others are, they're just ambition is less because they have to be less. So if the strike never happened, is that still the case? Or does this happen anyway? I think it happens anyways, because the market turned before the strike.

And the era of peak TV ended before the strike. Everybody, like cost cutting is the new scale spending like you can't make the argument to wall street anymore that you are trying to build up your streaming service for the next 10 years you have to make the argument that you are cutting costs and driving profitability and they made the announcement on the earnings call uh for warner discovery that they are profitable in streaming now a lot of people call bs on that because they lump hbo into that and hbo has a lot of subscribers both linear and on digital so it's kind of a bs number

but they all of these companies are trying to not lose as much money on streaming as they have over the past couple of years. And that necessarily means lower spending on shows, fewer shows, fewer movies. And we're going to see it across the board. Now, some would argue that's a good thing, that we've been overwhelmed by shows. And this will allow the shows that are made to have more focus, be better, and be more impactful when they land. But we'll see. Well, that was like that joke you had in your newsletter two weeks ago about, what was it?

Wolf Like Me? Oh yeah, the werewolf rom-com on Peacock that has a season two. And I have never heard of this show until I went on there to watch some SNL clips. I went on Peacock and I'm like, what the fuck is this? You put that Peacock and I'm like, what the fuck is this? You put that in the newsletter and I thought you were kidding. And I Googled it. I

was like, Oh, he's not kidding. That's actually, actually, I was like, Oh my God, Josh Gad is in this. I love Josh Gad. I like Isla Fisher. Like these are real actors that I like. And they're on a show called Wolf Like Me, but not only, this was not just a one-off, this was a second season of Wolf Like Me. Well, that was what Sean and I were talking, we did the Prestige TV pod, we did episode one of The Curse. And part of what we ended up talking about was, does a show like this have a chance anymore with the infrastructure we have now, where if it's like, if you launch something on Showtime and Paramountount because you're saying there's less shows now things can cut through i'm not sure because the curse is a really good show and it's the type of show that i think 10 years ago would hit i don't know what

the audience numbers is for it that's a great example to talk about because we have two nathan fielder shows the rehearsal from earlier this year, which did hit at least with a certain audience. I don't know that it was, it was certainly not charting on Nielsen, but people did see it. I heard about it from a ton of people. I watched it because it was on HBO. I trust that brand. I just don't know that people who get Paramount plus for, you know, the Yellowstone spinoffs and CSI, I don't think those people are interested in the curse so it's it's sort of on the wrong platform and the Showtime brand has basically been gutted and is on its way to dying because they they're taking away all the funding for for shows they're not doing you know the

traditional Showtime programming anymore and they are essentially folding it into Paramount Plus but I don't know that the Paramount Plus audience wants the curse. And what is the Paramount Plus audience? It's basically people that love Yellowstone and the Challenge and that's what it runs. As we know, Yellowstone proper is not on Paramount Plus. It is on

Peacock, some crazy deal, but the spinoffs are. The Taylor Sheridan shows are on Paramount Plus. The universe is on. The universe. I think people are going there for that. They're going there crazy deal but the spinoffs are the taylor sheridan shows are on the universe design the universe i think people are going there for that they're going there for the kids programming the nickelodeon stuff my kid watches stuff there's the movies and the cbs shows you can watch dsi and survivor and all that stuff on paramount plus and they're actually growing like paramount plus you know by relative standards is doing okay on growth.

I don't know how long it will exist. It will likely merge with one of the other streaming companies, whether it's Max or Peacock. Something's got to happen the next couple of years in those because Netflix is pulling away from everybody and they got to get some level of scale there. It feels like Disney is the only one that has enough assets to actually compete with Netflix because now that they have Hulu,

um, you add Disney plus you add ESPN and they've been pretty open about that. ESPN is going to go right to consumer, um, by 2025. Well, Disney has the brand together. Disney has the brand as well to a certain audience.

Like Disney is a utility you know if you have children under 10 like you kind of got and and disney is a very different model than netflix which is just a firehose of content the stuff that matters on disney is is the library all the old movies it's the marvel and the star wars shows it's the stuff that like people associate with disney and they don't have to make something new every week for people to feel value there. So it's a different thing from Netflix. Well, I do think that you could see the ceiling of it.

I look at Amazon, and they're spending money on stuff, but I don't know what the strategy is, and it really seems like it's heading more toward what they're doing with on stuff, but I don't know what the strategy is. And it really seems like it's heading more toward how can, like what they're doing with the Black Friday game, to me, seems like the future of whatever Amazon is, where it's like this big event, they're going to pull all these different things in it. They're going to try to get you to buy stuff on Amazon Prime as you're watching it. And that's kind of the future of that. I could not tell you for the life of me what Apple's plan is at this point. They want to be HBO. They want to be the old HBO where it's not

for everybody, but for the people that it is for, that you feel it's essential, that they have high quality, star-driven, prestige shows that a certain audience is really into. Was HBO canceling Jon Stewart episodes? Because I don't remember that part of the HBO experience. But HBO doesn't have a trillion dollar hardware business in China. Yes. I just don't take it seriously because it just seems like they want to make big, splashy deals with famous people.

Yes. Or they'll buy a movie. But I don't think ultimately, like, what are they ultimately going to be? To me, they're like Steve Ballmer being like, oh, I love James Harden. I'll trade some picks for him. But I mean, that's the knock on Apple is that there's no real business imperative for this. Like, why are they even doing it?

I mean, the services business at Apple is growing and services is music, it's games, it's- And Apple TV. And Apple TV, yeah. So they see this as a component of a services bundle that people will find valuable. Now, Apple also just raised its price significantly. It's now 10 bucks a month and it was seven bucks a month. And they're just spending money on this F1 movie they're doing with Brad Pitt is enormously expensive.

They have three movies that are coming out. The Killers of the Flower Moon, the Scorsese movie. They're going to lose tens of millions of dollars on this movie. Tens of millions? They're going to lose nine figures. I mean, it depends. If you just calculate the box office, yes. And the movie costs, depending on who you believe,

somewhere between 225 and 275. And it's three and a half hours long. The box office, it's at like 60 million in the US. It's probably not going to get to 200 million worldwide. And that's a gigantic loser because they've marketed it. They've done the whole thing. Now, is that a small price to pay for what will probably be a ton of Oscar nominations? And Tim Cook can wear his nicest tuxedo to the Oscars this year and be very proud of the pictures that run of him with Martin Scorsese and Leo DiCaprio. Maybe that's the price you pay for doing that kind of movie. It's like buying a 200-foot yacht. Be like, look at my yacht. Yeah. And maybe that's worth it.

If I was an Apple shareholder, I don't know if I would be that excited for this kind of an endeavor. But it's not the only one. At least they'll get Oscars for that one. Napoleon, the Joaquin Phoenix movie that's about to come out, that's an Apple movie as well.

Also very expensive. They're using Sony to release it. But who knows if that movie is even going to get awards attention. And they're spending a ton of money on it, trying to get people to see it in theaters, and then it'll drop on the service. They have another movie in the winter, Argyle, that's a similar type thing. Apple is giving theatrical releases to movies to try to get big filmmakers and prestige titles to work with them. And that's their advantage over Netflix is that you get theaters, but you you're also by putting these movies in theaters you're risking

losing a bunch of money um uh if they don't if they don't hit and you didn't even talk about the fact that the morning show per episode costs more than game of thrones did oh my god that's are you are you pro morning show or anti-morning show? I'm pro hate watching it every week. I think it's one of the worst shows of the past 10 years, but I've watched every minute of it. I totally agree. Have you guys on the Prestige pod, have you guys broken down?

No, we demoted it. We demoted it from Prestige to the ringer dish guilty pleasure podcast. We removed the Prestige from the morning show. Amazing. We wouldn't allow it on the feed anymore it was that was it was it the soft focus sex scene that did it the john ham jennifer anderson tastefully done the top the 1980s top gun sex scene yes where they show like the shoulder

and then they're showing like a soft focus like far away i i guarantee you that scene took a week. Oh, it's like a week and a half to come. It was 17 intimacy coordinators. They also, they had two straight episodes where somebody was on camera doing a live TV show and broke the show and stared into the camera and lost their minds. Back to back weeks. Yeah.

I mean, the first episode of this season where Reese Witherspoon goes to space. If you're in after that, you know exactly what you're getting. She went to space in January 6th in the same season. It was amazing stuff. Yes. And everybody's... There's a million things.

Also, the whole fact that they're debating whether a deal is going to go through. And they're talking about it openly with the press and everything. It's just so unrealistic. None of that would ever happen. The only really great thing Apple's done is they've bought two movies that both use the same Joni Mitchell song, which is a really great song.

Coda. And then, did you see the movie with Bono's daughter? It's actually pretty good. Florence Son? I have not seen that, no. Joni Mitchell's song is probably involved in both. Oh, I was thinking about, um, how Beckham came out like a month ago, back to the monoculture Netflix thing. And it felt like Beckham was a thing for like five days in a row. Right. It was like, just,

I don't know how many people watched it, but the command that they had with that subject, but also if you break it down, it's the perfect streaming 2023 type thing where you got the square, you got the Beckham, the title, you get the picture of Beckham. Basically, it's like a giant blockbuster store. We just go in and we look at the squares and we're like oh that square seems interesting and you click on the square and netflix is doing that better than everybody too even when you go to these other streaming services even the squares don't look as like appetizing to click on so they've just like

they've mastered all of these like subtle things to just suck you in and keep you there but the last piece of licensing shows that already succeeded from other places and turning them into bigger things on netflix oh way bigger could have predicted that what happened with suits was the story of the year the suits thing is insane because that it was popular when it aired on usa yeah it was a thing but the level that's the thing is netflix can take a show like that and it can supercharge it in a way that i don't think and not only can you not do that on another platform today i don't know that you could do that on any platform ever like shows have gone into syndication before and become hits maybe the only other example might be baywatch baywatch was like not a big hit when it premiered and then became

a phenomenon when it was in syndication but that was more like a foreign thing where like people were discovering pamela anderson like in germany and things like that. And a horny teenage college thing. Exactly. Yeah. So I don't know that you could ever think of an example of something that became this big through a licensing window. You know, the reruns of other shows, like, yes, they always play and it's always, you know, this has been a business throughout the history of television, but it's interesting. It actually puts Netflix in such a powerful position.

Because think about it. If they're looking at shows to buy, they're going to get discounts on stuff. Everyone's like, oh, Netflix should pay more because they have such an audience and everyone's watching these shows. No, that's not how it works. These shows, the goal is to increase the currency for shows. And if Netflix can go in there and say, oh, yeah, you can do a deal with Peacock and nobody will watch that and it will flounder. Or you can do a deal with Netflix. And not only will we make this a gigantic hit around the world, it's going to benefit everybody else.

NBC now wants to do another show with the Suits guy. They're trying desperately. They're trying desperately. They're putting out this other, there was a suit spinoff called Pearson that nobody watched. And now Peacock is like endlessly trying to make that a thing because they know everybody's watching suits and there's an appetite for more of that character. So there's like a halo around these shows that go on Netflix and become big that I think is unprecedented and also unmatched. You can't promise that anywhere else. Yeah, there's a rejuvenation piece.

I don't know what else they're syndicating from HBO. Right now, it's like Ballers, Six Feet Under, Insecure, Band of Brothers in the Pacific, more are coming. I would not be surprised if Entourage was next. Well, so I was thinking if they do Entourage, that show is going to crush on Netflix. Totally.

And it will lead, Doug Ellen's probably just waiting. Oh, God. Assistant to Doug is like standing by. But yeah, and I think Girls is another one. I was wondering if they could rejuvenate How to Make It in America, a show that I always liked. Yeah, I did like that. Could they breathe life in that?

Last Netflix question, because we saw the same sports story. I feel like Doc Rivers and I talked about the NBA in-season tournament earlier, and nobody knows exactly what it is, but I think everybody's going to at least watch it and give it a test drive. I personally think they created it to sell it to Amazon or Apple or Netflix.

That's why they even named it the NBA's in-season tournament, because it's eventually going to be called the Netflix Winter Classic or whatever they call it. Right. That's that's how it's going to play out. Netflix has always said they weren't going to get sports, but yet sports has really succeeded with them in all these different ways, including that quarterback show they had, the F1. And they've always been about, yeah, we're going to be on the side, kind of sucking the fumes of live sports, but not actually having live sports. But to me, this is like Ben Affleck decided to become Batman. The hubris move is to be like, you know what?

It's game over once we get sports and we have the money. Let's fucking go get it. My money would be on them diving into sports. Where do you stand? I totally agree. It is the dagger

that they can just inflict on the rest. You cannot be a global television network, long term, you cannot be a global television network, long-term. You cannot be a global television network without sports. It's got to be part of the plan. Now, Netflix has said many times that they are in the business of owning things they want to own. And when you are airing sports, you are renting those rights. It's the problem that ESPN is having right now. It built up this massive audience and

is charging people $10 a month on their cable bill to get ESPN, but they don't actually own anything. The leagues own these and they've caused the price of sports rights to go up so much so that they're now having to bring in a tech partners or one of the leagues to partner with them to be able to afford the beast that they created. And can you imagine if sports ended up on Netflix and the audience just went through the roof, the value of that rights package would probably go up because Netflix is now giving them a huge audience. So they have always said they're not interested. I just don't believe them.

I think that they are interested. This is their toe in the water. They're doing today. They're doing this golf tournament in Vegas with PGA pros and F1 guys. It's called the Netflix Cup. It's like a fake golf tournament. And this is like one after another. They are going to do these things until they decide to dive in.

Now, how that takes place. I don't know. It could be that they go for foreign rights first maybe a league that they could pick up and own we know that they looked at some of these more minor leagues to actually buy like they looked at uh like the surf league and they looked at pickleball and they looked at some of these other sort of like the ocho leagues that they could potentially own but i think you know if they were to buy paramount let's say paramount's a studio that owns cbs cbs has nfl until you know 2033 i believe so if they

were to buy that then all of a sudden maybe netflix has a package of sunday nfl games that they could put on and they just fold paramount Plus and have it all be on Netflix. That's one scenario. They could also just go in and like these media companies, traditional companies are going to start dying off or merging or becoming super desperate. Maybe Fox or one of the others decides they can't afford the football rights anymore. So Netflix goes in or MLB does a package or the NBA rights deal that's coming up. Maybe Netflix becomes a bidder there. I just think it's inevitable.

Or the network is so desperate to keep the sport that they overpay for it. And then it has all this cataclysmic damage to the rest of their business because it's like, well, we can't lose football. And then all of a sudden they're just getting annihilated. That's already happening, right? Right. I mean, the prices that the traditional networks paid to keep NFL in the last round were so extraordinary that their businesses don't really justify it either. And it's going to become tougher and tougher to justify it as these cable bundles decline and decline and decline.

Well, I wonder like the quarterbacks thing did so well for them. And whether that was a good show or not, we can debate that another time. But people really liked it. I had people in my life who were like, I really liked it. I didn't know Kirk Cousins better. Okay. They're doing an NBA version of it too with some major stars. There's been rumors that LeBron's going to be in it

and Jason Tatum and Jimmy Butler. Those guys are famous anyway. I don't know who the final three will be or final four, but that show will be massive. And when you think you could also have the games and this other thing with the athletes, this running reality show that's tied to the games, that's a whole other level of sports coverage that we haven't seen. Nobody's been able to pull off that

version of it yet. It also seems like the leagues are way more receptive to some of this stuff than they were even five years ago. We did that courtside show on HBO for the finals and it was like we couldn't get access to anything. Now the are like take it just as long as the check clears you can have what you want so i think the big differentiator was what netflix did to f1 yeah that show put f1 on the map in this country and raised the profile of that league so much that we're in vegas this weekend with1 stuff. I mean, that is all traceable to the network show. I mean, and all the other leagues looked at that and said, holy shit, this is the platform to be in business with. So they're going to get whatever they want.

They're going to get access. They're going to get, you know, and it's not just them. I mean, hard knocks is doing in season hard knocks now. You ever think that would happen? That the league would just say, yeah, come into the locker room during the season and we'll air it during the season. And by the way,

Hard Knocks crushed for HBO by Hard Knocks ratings purposes. But if that had been a Netflix show, what is it, 50 times bigger of an audience? Yeah, but you can say that now. This gets back to your point. You can say that about everything now.

Right. That's a great show. Imagine if Ted Lasso was on Netflix. Imagine how big that would be. We weren't talking about this a year ago, though. I think that's, to me, the legacy of 2023. It's like, for whatever reason, and we could come up with 20,

Netflix is now, you have to have it. Everything feels bigger when it goes on there. And they're even resuscitating shows that already happened. And if they get into sports, it's over. So we went from thinking like, I mean, I'm sure you heard in the industry, a lot of people be like, Netflix has no money. They're all debt. Like it's a house of cards. Remember that was the thing for three years. The debt thing was, yeah, they're never going to be able to get over that debt hurdle. Yeah, that was the narrative.

Remember, it was like the whole Ponzi scheme thing. And now it's like, definitely not a Ponzi scheme. All right, Matt Bellany, you're covering all this stuff on The Town, which is a fantastic podcast. What do you have coming up this week? This week, we're talking about Fox. We've got Brian Stelter, who has a Fox book out. We're talking with Justine Bateman

in a day or two about the AI component of the actors deal and she's not a fan of the protections that the guild negotiated for AI for actors. So I'm going to grill her on that and we're

heading into the year end stuff. We're going to do the townies again who won the year in entertainment can't wait I never get invited on so I just have to listen oh stop you've been

on you came on to talk about SNL but that was like a year ago I don't remember the last invite that's right you come on this podcast all right so hi to

Craig good to see you all right that's it for the podcast thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti and Jesse Lopez today as well. Thanks to Doc Rivers.

And I will see you on this feed on Thursday. I don't have a few years with him On the wayside On the Bruce O'Leary road I don't have a few years with him Must be 21 plus in president select states. FanDuel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem?

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