The Bill Simmons Podcast - Embiid’s Crazy Career, Plus Harden’s Next Move, Big Papi’s Honor, and Charles Oakley Stops By | With Big Wos and Kevin Hench

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons shares an essay on Joel Embiid’s career in the midst of another spectacular season (2:36) before talking with Wosny Lambre about the 76ers’ need to trade Ben Simmons in order to get Embiid some support this season, James Harden trade rumors, the Lakers’ win over the Nets, trade deadline predictions, and more (16:42). Then Bill talks with his longtime friend and Red Sox fan Kevin Hench about David Ortiz being inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame (47:08). Finally, Bill is joined by Charles Oakley for the first time since 2018 to discuss stories from his career; ‘The Last Dance’; the NBA season; NFL playoffs; his upcoming book, ‘The Last Enforcer: Outrageous Stories From the Life and Times of One of the NBA’s Fiercest Competitors’; and more (1:06:26). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Charles Oakley, Wosny Lambre, and Kevin Hench Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where we put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did Casino, MeFantasy, Chris Ryan. We had an effective mic for Chris Ryan. We tried to fight through it.

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The rewatchables. Also brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook where I'm doing same game NBA parlays and parlays, parlays and parlays on Wednesday nights. Go to FanDuel Sportsbook tomorrow and you'll see which game we picked. Actually, let's pick it right now. Why don't we do

this live? Wednesday's slate. Oh, a lot of juicy games. Bucks-Cavs, Kings-Hawks, Knicks-Heat, Mavs-Trailblazers. I think that's the one. Mavs-Trailblazers. Maybe we'll go with that on Wednesday. Fanville Sportsbook. Stay tuned. Coming up on this pod, it's action-packed. I have some thoughts on Joel Embiid at the top. He had 42 points tonight. Another monster, monster game. It's him and Jokic for MVP right now.

It's a battle. Anyway, that's coming up. Big Waz talking about the Brooklyn Lakers game and both of those teams. My friend Kevin Hench, talking poppy, making the Hall of Fame. And then finally,

our guy Charles Oakley, he's back. Four years ago, we did one of the great podcasts of all time. We're not going to be able to recreate that. It's impossible to recreate. It's like recreating Boogie Nights.

Can't do it. But he's coming back because he has a book. So we're going to talk to him about current NBA stuff, The Last Dance, Pippen and MJ, all kinds of things.

It's an action-packed podcast. As always, first, our friends from ProJab. I always thought Akeem Olajuwon had the craziest career of any NBA superstar. Played soccer in Nigeria, picked up basketball as a teenager, had a growth spurt, somehow never lost his soccer footwork, came to the University of Houston, found a low-post mentor by the name of Moses Malone. You might have heard of him. Figured out how to thrive in a new country. Got drafted by his hometown Rockets.

Turned into an absolute killer. Won two titles. Went down as one of the 15 best players ever. And in my basketball book, I wrote the following. Add everything up and here are your odds that we'll see another Hakeem Olajuwon. A kajillion, pillion, gazillion, frazillion, frigillion, million to one. Well, Joel Embiid's path to stardom, nearly as unlikely. Hakeem, Nigeria, Embiid, Cameroon, Hakeem, soccer, Embiid, volleyball. Like Hakeem, Embiid doesn't start messing around with basketball until age 15, moves to Florida.

Two years of prep school games, lands for a year at the University of Kansas. By the spring of 2014, with only four years of basketball under his belt, Embiid somehow is about to become the NBA's number one overall pick. And if you stop it right there, it's an absolutely crazy story.

But it's not that crazy, right? Hakeem paved the way. Hakeem made the Joel Embiid story seem, I don't know, conceivable? Well, here's what became inconceivable. Everything that happened to Joel Embiid over the next eight years. How does someone reach their potential as a superstar

while also giving us a career littered with what ifs and almost and holy shits and why did that have to happen? And how is almost none of this his fault? How did the NBA's most overpowering player become its most sympathetic figure? I like Joel Embiid. I root for Joel Embiid. I feel bad for Joel Embiid and I'm a Celtic fan.

How did we get here? Go back to the spring of 2014. It's going to be the first pick of the draft. He's going to Cleveland. It's happening. We don't know that LeBron is going there yet. That's two months away. We don't know that LeBron, Kyrie, and Embiid might actually be a thing.

So what happens? A week before the draft, Embiid suffers a stress fracture in his right foot. Uh-oh. I was one of ESPN's studio guys for that draft. Embiid suffers a stress fracture in his right foot. Uh-oh. I was one of ESPN's studio guys for that draft. I said on the air, I still thought Embiid should have gone first.

I thought he was a 7-foot Serge Ibaka. By the way, I was wrong. He grew. He became a 7-foot-2 Serge Ibaka, but better. Anyway, Cleveland got scared. They take Wiggins. Milwaukee gets scared.

They take Jabari Parker. Incredibly, the best guy in the draft falls to number three at Philadelphia. So what if Embiid never breaks his foot? Does Cleveland keep him? Would LeBron have wanted to give him a test drive as a rookie or do they deal him right away to Minnesota for Kevin Love like they did with Wiggins? Here's my hot take. I don't even know if it's that hot. I think they keep Embiid. LeBron, basketball savant, works out with Embiid a couple of times, spends some time with him, starts thinking, God damn, this guy's a monster. This might be another five titles for me. I just can't see LeBron signing off on trading Embiid. I can't. So instead of teaming up with one of the three greatest players who ever played basketball, Embiid instead becomes the poster boy of the process. And he doesn't play for two whole seasons. The foot, the knee, the back. Was this Greg Oden 2.0? Were they being overly cautious? We didn't know. They finished 28 and 136 with Adam in those two seasons. They take Jaleel Okafor and Ben Simmons with two top three picks. They bastardize the sport.

They trigger the NBA to eventually change its lottery rules. They cause NBA fans to morph into two camps, pro-process, anti-process. I was anti-process. Well, what's a weirder situation for young Joel Embiid? Nothing. Plays 31 games in his third year in 2017. Looks kind of awesome. Got some rookie of the year buzz. Philly starts getting some team of the future buzz. Somehow they end up with another top

three pick and oh boy, they trade up for Markel Fultz. But still, we're wondering stuff. How good can Embiid be? Can he stay in the court? What did those 786 minutes mean? Was he teasing us? 2018 happens. Boom. Plays 63 games, averages 23 and 11, leads the Sixers to 52 wins. Remember that? Remember the Philly process party? The process has been vindicated. You guys laughed at us. Who's laughing now? Well, I'm still laughing at Fult folks, but go ahead. They fumble away a winnable round two series to Boston, then reboot the following year with Jimmy Butler and a new GM, big Jimmy Butler trade. Round two, Toronto, seven games of war. One iconic Kawhi shot. So long, Philly. It's the closest Embiid ever comes to a title, at least so far. We don't know that yet. We just know that

at that point, Embiid's morphed into a true franchise center. He averaged 27 and 13 in the regular season. Those are Shaq numbers. He's also the most likable young NBA star other than maybe Giannis. So this worked out great, right? Not really. That summer, Butler dumps Philly for Miami. We have the weird bubble season. Philly gets swept by Boston. Coach change, finally. Doc Rivers comes in. Lots of hot takes.

Did the process really work? Are we sure Simmons and Embiid can play together? Why isn't Embiid in better shape? Is a promising Sixers era destined to be a letdown? Well, last year, the East belongs to the Nets, and then all of a sudden it doesn't. Injuries, the great equalizer. Everything winds up nicely suddenly

for either Joel Embiid or Giannis Antetokounmpo. One of them will make the 2021 finals. It is happening, and it's Giannis. It's not Embiid. It's Giannis because Philly chokes in the Atlanta series. Simmons melts down to the point that after game seven, Doc won't even give him a void of confidence as a point guard. Oh, hell breaks loose.

Simmons demands a trade. Philly says no. Simmons leaves. Clutch gets involved. They try to bully Philly into trading him the same way they bullied New Orleans with Anthony Davis. Doesn't work. Staring contest.

Nobody blinks. Preseason. Nobody blinks. Season starts. No Simmons. Meanwhile, Embiid looks around and says, fuck it. Cranks out in another awesome season. These last two years, he's averaged 29 and 11 with 51, 38, 84 shooting splits. Shooting over 50%, almost 40% from three. His per 36 numbers put him with the likes of Kareem and Shaq and Moses. You might have heard of those guys.

He's also a legitimately impactful defensive presence. He's an absolute bitch to defend at the end of games. He's one of the best eight guys in the league. And he's doing without Simmons. He's Batman,

only if Batman was trying to keep Gotham safe with Robin sulking in the Batcave. And if you add everything up, it's one of the dumbest situations for any NBA superstar in eons. Remember, Philly literally threw away four seasons, four, so they could land a superstar. And guess what?

They actually did. And somehow he doesn't have enough frigging help. Even though they had three other top three picks, even though they had about 278 first round picks, what happened? Here's how crazy the Ben Simmons piece is. We haven't seen an NBA star throw in entire season of paychecks

since Gus Williams, my guy, held out in Seattle in 1981. That was an absolute travesty. That accomplished nothing other than probably keeping Gus out of the Hall of Fame That was an absolute travesty. That accomplished nothing other than probably keeping Gus out of the Hall of Fame. I'm still mad about it. Well, Simmons was supposed to earn $33 million this season. He's already set half of that money on fire.

He's not getting paid. It's gone. He'll never get it back. And it's still unclear what he's trying to tell us. He doesn't want to play for the Sixers anymore because Rivers embarrassed him. He doesn't want to get booed by the fans. He lost his confidence as long as he's wearing a Philly uniform.

I mean, what's going on here? If it's a mental health issue, then how does that work for the 29 other teams who might want to trade for him? If Sacramento deals for him tomorrow, his mental health suddenly becomes fine. So it's a conditional mental health issue just related to Philly. For someone making $33 million a year and climbing in a league with a salary cap, how does this work? Well, the 76ers did all the math and they still want Simmons to come back because they know when Simmons plays, they're one of the NBA's best defensive teams. They're one of the better rebounding teams. They're one of the better transition teams. They have size. They'd have an actual chance to win the title. And if you replace them with anyone other than one of the best 30 players,

that is no longer the case. Well, nobody wants to trade a top 30 player for him. They're not getting Giannis, Steph, Luka, LeBron, Ja, Durant, Booker, Trey, Towns, Mitchell, Tatum, Harden, hold that thought, Butler, Davis, Bam, Jokic, DeRozan, Levine, Jalen, Beal. I just named 20 guys. They're not getting valuable vets on contenders like CP3, Middleton, Draymond, Drew, Gobert, Clay. That's up to 26. They're not getting valuable young stars From teams that like those young stars Guys like Mobley, Lamello, Garland Cade, Giddy, Barnes Even Kaminga, Edwards, Wagner

Aiton, Jaron Jackson, Brandon Ingram You're not getting those guys Well, now we're up to 38 guys Injured stars, Kawhi, Zion, Murray Paul George, Porter It'll make sense for either side For a variety of reasons They're not trading for Kyrie I sure hope not Paul George, Porter. It'll make sense for either side for a variety of reasons.

They're not trading for Kyrie. I sure hope not. That's 44 guys who don't make sense in a Ben Simmons trade. So would Philly completely overpay for an injured Dame? I mean, maybe. That's how grim this is.

Trying to talk a semi-tanking Portland team into Simmons and Maxey and 100 first-round picks for a 32-year-old little guy with a semi-tanking Portland team into Simmons and Maxey and 100 first round picks for a 32-year-old little guy with a fucked up abdomen. And that semi-tanking team is probably saying, no thanks, we're good. Which brings us back to Embiid.

In year eight of the weirdest career for any modern NBA superstar. Again, played 786 minutes total his first three seasons. And now he's as reliable for 32 minutes a game as anyone in the league. He's played with two all-stars, one fled after a year.

The other won't play at all. He played with three other top three picks, Simmons, Fultz, Okafor. None of them are on the 76ers right now. His best teammate right now is Curry, only it's the wrong one. Shout out to Seth. I love Seth, but I mean, the other one's Steph.

He's had two coaches. One will never get hired again. The other has blown more playoff series and game sevens than anyone ever. That's true. His team's best trade asset can't really be traded unless there's some luck. We'll talk about that in a second.

His team's second best trade asset is Tobias Harris, only he's too expensive to fetch second. His team's second best trade asset is Tobias Harris. Only he's too expensive to fetch anything. His best chance for the finals is the puncher's chance of Brooklyn imploding this spring and Harden bullying his way to Philly just to run from Kyrie. There's already a lot of rumors about this week, but even if that somehow happens,

Embiid is still betting on Brooklyn, A, actually wanting Simmons in a trade based on what we've seen for the last nine months, and B, betting that Harden can bulldoze his way to Philly, and C, he's a 33-year-old superstar who's been 20 pounds overweight for the last two years and now this is your guy, sink or swim. If this doesn't work out, you're shot.

Well, I ask you again, do you feel bad for Joel Embiid? Because I sure do. In 2018, the spring, there was an extended moment during game five of the Boston Philly series when Embiid destroyed the Celtics for three solid minutes. I was there. Couldn't stop him. Even worse, he knew we couldn't stop him. He was looking at the fans, making faces, the whole thing. It's a helpless feeling when that happens. When you're enjoying a playoff game with 18,000 friends and suddenly the night turns into a horror movie.

An unstoppable villain emerges. You can't fend him off. You can't do anything. Kareem, Andrew, Tony, Dominique, Vinnie Johnson, Isaiah, MJ, Kobe, Wade, LeBron. I've been in the building for a few of those. Tony was the hardest one. Game seven, 1982.

Couldn't fucking stop him. Murdered us. Killed us. Had to trade for Dennis Johnson just to make up for what happened in 1982. LeBron was the bleakest. Game six, 2012, over by the second quarter. You always know when it's happening.

And in that Philly game, way back when, 2018, you could feel it happening with Embiid just for a couple minutes there. And then he got tired and the moment was gone. But he's at a different level now. Better shape, more polished offensively tired, and the moment was gone. Well, he's at a different level now. Better shape, more polished offensively, ready for the biggest stage possible,

but it's not happening this season. Not unless this Ben Simmons situation miraculously resolves itself. Don't hold your breath. There's some urgency here, too. Embiid is 7'2", close to 300 pounds. Basketball, as we know, is an unforgiving sport for big guys.

We know this. We know it from Yao, from Walton, Oden, Sampson, Sabonis, countless others. Giant human beings aren't really meant to run and jump on a basketball court for 3,000 minutes a year. The odds are against them, always. So how many more healthy Embiid seasons will we get? How many more years will Embiid be poised for greatness? Will the weirdest and most improbable career of any 21st century NBA superstar just keep getting weirder and more improbable? You can't even say it's part of the process anymore because this isn't a process. It's just weird. It's Joel Embiid, age 27, in his prime with the odds working against him yet again. This episode is brought to you by Movember.

The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, Big Waz is here. You can watch his

Full Court Fits videos that we run on the socials. You can hear him on Ringer NBA Show on Wednesdays. And now, Weekends with Waz, Sunday nights. It's happening. Yeah, it is. It is. It's one of those things where, you know, the opportunity came up and it was like, yeah, let's make this a guest center thing. And what I've basically done is called up some friends and just rolled out the balls. Let them play.

It's genius, Bill. We should also say I forced you to do it. I was like, we need you on the weekends, Wes. I know you're a busy guy, but you're doing this. No, it's been good. I'm glad you're doing it. Let's talk Embiid quickly because I just did in the previous segment a whole thing about

his last eight years and how crazy it's been so many different ways. He had 42 tonight. It's him and Jokic right now, I think, as our two MVP candidates. But I'm watching this going, A, I feel bad that he doesn't have more help. B, amazed that in this day and age,

a center can still do stuff like this when you would just think, oh, they'll just double team himam or make a good at the ball. But he's just kind of figured it all out. It feels like he's gotten, in my imaginations, it feels like he's gotten a little bit better each year for the last four. What do you think? Yeah, I would agree.

And I just think the diversity of what he does on the offense was just crazy. Like, obviously, he always flashed some three-point ability, but he's shooting 38% this year on threes, which is absurd for what he's able to do inside already. And then, you know, the diversity meaning, like, he can get his shot off the dribble now. He does this off-the-dribble sort of mid-range pull-up

that is just so soft and just cash. And he's shooting efficiently from every single quadrant on the court. Like, you know, people who are mid range, like assassins, people like KD and, you know, the Kyrie's of the world, they shoot in the 48 to 50 to 51 percentage. Joel Embiid's at like 50, excuse me, 47% from mid-range. So like offensively, there's nothing he can't do to people. He's doing the Euro step off the dribble. He's, you know, in sort of semi-transition

where they give him the ball at half court and he's just attacking fools. It's kind of crazy the diversity by which he's able to come to these baskets. And who could have could if he would have just been a great back to the basket bruise you up have to send doubles when he gets it close to the basket and he's this defensive player of the equality defender we'd be like wow what a great player what a great guy to have on your team but the fact that he's doing everything

yeah offensively now is remarkable i like his little off-balance one- but the fact that he's doing everything offensively now is remarkable. I like his little off-balance, one-legged thing that he does. It's such a unique shot. It's in a weird way kind of his signature shot, even though, as you said, it's the Dirk, but the fact that a 7-foot... Is he 7'2 or 7'3? Have we decided?

He's at least 7'2. He's the biggest guy out there every single game he's also like for the listeners if you haven't seen him in person there's a couple guys in the league that are just worth it in person just from kind of a

awesome spectacle standpoint I think Giannis is like that too watching Giannis run up and down the court watching Embiid a guy with his size move. Watching Jokic in person, how weird it is where you're like,

man, that guy? And then he's just torching everybody. You know the weird version of that for me too, Bill? Fred Van Vliet. Somebody that small can get anything done

on an NBA court. I'm like, wow, that's crazy. Well, you know, Muggsy Bogues used to be like that way back when. When you'd see him in person and Manute was the opposite of it. I'm like, wow, that's crazy. Well, you know, Muggsy Bogues used to be like that way back when. You'd see him in person, and Manute was the opposite of it. Both of them were so staggering when you were actually at the game versus on TV, it's one thing.

It's like, oh, that guy's really tall. That guy's really short. But in person, watching Muggsy Bogues take somebody full court, there's an NBA TV documentary that I've not watched about him. But with the Embiid thing, though, I am so curious to see if they handle this Simmons thing before the deadline or not. And that was a little bit of what I did the last segment. Like, I do feel like when you have a guy like this, who's this good. Yeah. And who knows what the East, right? Guys are dropping left and right. Teams are going up and down. You just never know.

You saw what happened last year with Milwaukee where all of a sudden you're in the finals. All of a sudden you have a chance to win. And whether they're able to either parlay the Simmons thing into something right now, which doesn't seem conceivable because it just doesn't seem like a trade. Now they're starting to float the Harden stuff.

And I don't know whether that's coming from Clutch or that's coming from the Sixers or both or neither. But that's been the last 24 hours where it's like, yep, James Harden's unhappy. And then everybody runs with it. We have no idea what's true, what's not true. But that's the internet these days. Look, you know, it's funny because

I've been sort of making fun of Daryl and his declaration that this could take four years to get the Ben Simmons thing done. As if we can just ignore what Joel Embiid is and what he does on the floor and how precious it is to have a guy this special on your team. And how you need to maximize all of this time, right? Like, I just thought that was a ridiculous notion. However, you know, I spoke to some people around some of the guys on the team, and Joel's kind of like, yo, all right, let me go out and win MVP this year. Fuck it.

You know what I mean? Like, fuck it. Oh, it's a one for me, not a one for us. I like it. It's like, fuck it. Let me just go out and prove to people the level of player that I actually am. Like, I am up there with the KDs, with the Jokic's, with the Steph's, with LeBron's, of course, whoever you want to name.

I'm one of those guys. I'm going to go out and prove it to you by winning an MVP. So this seems to be some of that coming out of Joel's situation where he's just like, no, I'm just going to kick everybody's ass up and down the court, drag this very limited team, Tobias Harris, to the playoffs and basically do it on my own. You know what I mean? But still, at the same time, it would seem so tragic to use another Joel season where he's this obviously great and not maximize what's around him to try to accomplish something on the team side. Because again, last year should be instructive for any team that's anywhere near close. Milwaukee, the Suns, shoot, even the Clippers in a different type of way.

Like, anything can kind of happen in the playoffs. And you don't get these chances every single year where the dominoes fall in your favor. You can't be dicking around when you have a generational talent like this. You got to be in it to win it. But, you know, time will tell. We got till February 10th until this completely most exhausting. It's two weeks away now.

We're not that far away all of a sudden. It's like 15 days. But it's going to be an exhausting two weeks though, Bill. Like the Harden thing today was just, you know, again, it's from a guy who's a Philly guy. And I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the homie's name. Jake Fisher. Okay, yeah, Fisher.

Where it's like, all right, it's a Philly guy. So I'm like, I don't know how plugged in he is to the Brooklyn side of things. But again, this is just the open and salvo, Bill. We got a long way to go. It's going to get way crazier before the 10th. I don't know where NBA journalism stops and celebrity journalism begins anymore.

It's no different than Pete Davidson had another date with Kim Kardashian. Then it's like, James Harden's unhappy. Oh boy, he might opt out. My favorite part of it was James Harden doesn't like Brooklyn, so he's going to move to Philly.

It's like, what? By the way, do you think he actually lives in Brooklyn? I'm sure he lives in New York City, right? You think he lives in Brooklyn? I would be surprised if he did. I would be surprised. I could see. I'm of two minds. I could see him living in Tribeca.

Not Tribeca. In Dumbo, where a lot of rich people live in Brooklyn, and you get these crazy big loft spaces and all of that. I could seeca, in Dumbo, where a lot of rich people live in Brooklyn and you get these crazy big loft spaces and all of that. Like, I can see him being in Dumbo, but I could also see him being in a place like Alpine, New Jersey, where you can get an actual house, a yard.

Because, you know, in Houston, as rich as he is, he probably lived in a McMansion, like literally. So he might be used to having a huge house. So he might have gone to Jersey, but I'm not sure. I don't think there's any reporting on the James Harden real estate beat. Yeah. We obviously need more. I think we're all slacking. I know Darryl always used to tell me this about Houston. He would say how the NBA players loved Houston because you could get these giant houses, just giant, like in lots of land. There's no taxes.

There are all these benefits. I'm like, yeah, whatever. And then over and over again, he was getting guys to actually play for them. So there's something to it. There's the housing market. And, you know, I know we're not going to get into this. No, there's champagne and campaign.

Exactly. The social market in Houston, specifically for NBA players, is very, very, very attractive. But, you know, look, I could buy one thing. I could buy the idea that James Harden is angling to make sure that Brooklyn understands, like, look, I got options. Y'all better give me this 250 mil when the offseason's done

if you're serious about your life. I have options. And two, maybe I don't like playing with Kyrie that much. The whole Kyrie act is wearing me thin. We came here to do something together and this guy's gone diva mode on everybody and he's too good for a vaccine. I could buy that.

I could definitely buy that. That's the only piece of this. Who knows? Half-truths, little truce, rumors, game of telephone. The only piece of this. Who knows? Half-truths, little druce, rumors, game of telephone. The only piece that I'm pretty convinced on would be that Harden's disappointed that Kyrie's not playing all the time. Because how could he not be? Kyrie's only playing certain road games.

I still feel like, especially with KD out and with what's going on in the East, where the Nets are, you know, all of a sudden they could be in sixth place in like four days, that they're going to have to get are, you know, all of a sudden they could be in sixth place in like four days, that they're going to have to get ambitious, I think, with the Kyrie can't play. Like, just pay the fine. Because they have the argument to fall back on of what would these visiting players can come in who aren't vaccinated.

And they can play, so why can't Kyrie play? I feel like they're going to play that card. What do they care? It'll take heat for a day and then nobody will care. Yeah, it doesn't make, like like at a certain point, like I understood the arguments of like, oh, this sets a bad precedent. Everybody else is doing it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But like, and I think some of it is grounded and misguided, like Kyrie and Aaron Rodgers should be setting an example for the nation. And it's like, I mean, where are we as a country? Yeah, we need those two guys to help. That's what I'm saying. Like people are so shocked that these guys have YouTube accounts and can go through YouTube rabbit holes just like your uncle or your cousin does. Like we all have these peoples in our lives and we understand that they do it i i don't know that everybody else is completely like hold on hold on those people i i don't have anyone like kairi in my life i just want you to know that i have some weird people in my life but not kairi

well yeah i don't have any flat earthers but as far as like vaccine hesitancy and all of that like i don't know i thought we got a little bit high horsey in nba media about the vaccine hesitancy and all of that. Like, I don't know. I thought we got a little bit high horsey in NBA media about the vaccine hesitancy. Like, yeah, it's dumb. Oh, we got high horsey in the NBA media? I can't believe it. That never happens. I think at this point, like, look,

if he's playing on the road and he's playing against all the same people and we're packing arenas with 20,000 people with, with like no real way of saying if any of them have actually gotten vaccinated like what are we doing at a certain point like just let the dude play don't kill me vaccine twitter i'm with you the thing with harden so he can, he's under contract. He can't be sent to Philly just on his own accord. It would have to be a sign and trade with Simmons, which is a very important thing to understand. Brooklyn would have to agree to send him there and be delighted to get Ben

Simmons back. Who hasn't played in nine months, plus a bunch of picks that aren't going to really help Kevin Durant. The other thing he would have would be he hardened if this is really true. And I, I, I don't think anything is, and no minds have been made up, put it that way. But if he wanted to say, Oh, I might go, I might go, here I go. There's not a lot of teams with cap space. That would make sense.

The only one really is San Antonio. Like Orlando has cap space. Houston's going to have some cap space. He's not going to go to those teams is San Antonio. Like, Orlando has cap space. Houston's going to have some cap space. He's not going to go to those teams. Like, San Antonio, like, Popovich, like, maybe. But is that really a threat if you're Josiah? No, I think. Come on.

Josiah's going to be there going, oh, you might go to San Antonio? Oh, I'm quaking in my boots. Well, one, I don't know that San Antonio would ever offer that dude the kind of deal that it would take to bring him over. It doesn't seem like James Harden fits the San Antonio mold, if you know what I mean.

But I do think James Harden would leave for money for a crappy situation. I do think he very much would like to maximize his earning potential. And I do think even if the situation bleak, if they paid him, I don't think James Harden would have any hesitancy because he's kind of shown that like what's most important to him are these like James Harden centric things like soaking up possessions, being an all-star,

being out and about a socialite, making as much money as possible. Like part of the MVP job, obviously every player won't say it when every P, but he had a clause in his Adidas deal that he got way more money if he got an MVP, right? Like, and I think part of the reason why James Harden operates the way that he does, and we talked about this on weekends um on sunday with amin in that he doesn't take it as seriously as steph and lebron who are guys in fairness to james hardy take it as seriously as anybody in the history of the world is taking sports seriously um is that he's made a lot of money like okay whatever i'm a 400 millionaire i't think, so what you guys don't consider me

on the par with Magic and LeBron? I've earned so much money. He's three maxes, right? He's a three max guy, I think, at this point. So he signs another 200-something million dollar contract. I mean, that's with some team

that doesn't have championship potential. That's in line with the James Harden we've known, you know? Well, I can't see him leaving. I You know? Well, I can't see him leaving. I can't see Brooklyn. I can't see him leaving for one of those weird cap space teams. So, we've learned, like, with stuff

like Jimmy Butler in Miami, you can't rule out some trade partner that you never saw coming. Like, whoa, where'd that team come from? You also can't rule out this piece, though, with the Nets and the Sixers. And that's the rumor du jour that it would be, you know, whatever. And I really do not believe it in my bones because I don't think Ben Simmons has nearly the same kind of trade value because

he doesn't play basketball. He's given away a half a season of paychecks not to play. So I'm, I'm, I'm not like jumping at the chance to get him. But here's the other piece. Joe Sy, Nets owner. You know, I don't think he's a huge Daryl fan and a huge you know that. I don't think he's going to be going oh cool because it's come out two years ago

like he wouldn't let Daryl into this arena for a Nets game. Like there's some China animosity. The residual free Taiwan stuff okay yeah so so two years later he's gonna be like here's James Harden let me take your guy back who hasn't played for 10 months that sounds improbable call me crazy yeah this that that is an interesting little wrinkle however you know you never know right like I wonder how much cachet somebody like Sean Marks has within the organization, because the job of a GM is to convince your owner

of your great ideas. All right. So I'm the owner. You convinced me that we're going to trade James Harden, who we gave up basically every asset we have for a guy who completely melted down and fell apart in the playoffs last year and then decided he didn't want to play basketball anymore. And that's going to be the centerpiece I get back. Explain that to me. I'm the owner. Well, okay, but here's the thing. You got to tell Brooklyn, look, Ben Simmons ain't going to cut it for the sign and trade.

You got to get me more stuff. Figure out more stuff, Philly, that you can give me to make this sign and trade worth my while. And I think they can't, they can probably coax Philly into getting more than just the dude who hasn't played in a year and the last time we saw him he was pulling a damn Houdini in the playoffs right yeah um and by Houdini I mean disappearing act y'all just for the no but I'm just saying like I think if if you could if you can get more than Simmons because

well you have to get it's not a one-for-one. No, you need five first-rounders and all kinds of stuff. So, like, if they send over a bunch of stuff with Ben Simmons, that would be great. And another thing, Bill, man, that I will say, I want to see this happen because I think it would end in flame out. It would just be completely horrible. It wouldn't work.

And James Harden, like, you know, he's pretty easy. Harden and Embiid together? I just don't think it would work. I think it's a weird combination. I think it sounds good on paper. I just don't. Philly doesn't care because Darryl's strategy is always, if I can get two of the best 12 guys, I'm getting it.

I'll figure out the rest. Meanwhile, poor Kevin Durant, who's having a great time, who's the leading MVP candidate and had his hand-picked friends and then Kyrie, he's gone. KD gets hurt. Now there's these James Harden rumors

and KD's looking at OKC 2.0 all of a sudden. A Westbrook trade's in play now. We might have the reunion. Where's Serge Ibaka? Get Ennis Freedom in there. Let's get the Indiana Waiters. Where is he?

Let's get the band back together. Let's do something that I know personally I hate doing and I know you do too. We got to give the Lakers some credit. Specifically LeBron James. I'm not giving the Lakers basketball team credit, but LeBron destroyed the Nets tonight. And, you know, I I've lost the capacity to understand what it means when somebody is in year 19 and he's played 61,000 mile minutes. And, um, nobody's done this at this age because we're watching Tom Brady,

like pull off 27 to three comebacks in football playoff games when he's 44 years old. So I don't even know what the age thing means anymore, but I am watching him. I am enjoying watching him play basketball. I think his team is weird. It doesn't fit, but his weird hybrid of this power bully ball game that he has,

you know, combined with this goofy kind of step back. I don't even know what a three is, but he doesn't have the same lift anymore. But somehow everybody seems more afraid of him than at any point in his career since like mid-Miami 2013 range. It has been impressive. I do feel like, you know, sometimes LeBron can check out, right? We saw it last couple games, 2014 finals. We saw it last couple games, 2010, whether the moment gets too big or you can just see he's kind of like, I wouldn't mind getting out of this situation.

2018 Cleveland after the JR game, where you just see something shifts, where it's like, ah, he could go either way on this one. I don't feel like he's been like that for the most part with the Lakers. What do you see? No, I think this I think this this recent run and I've said this on one of our other podcasts is I think LeBron signal to the greater NBA public like it ain't me. Okay. Whatever it is that looks bad on this team. And it's like, it's not making sense and doesn't work. And our record is putrid. It ain't LeBron James. I'll tell you that much. I think he's just proving to people like, no,

I'm still really fucking good. Um, and you get me in a playoff setting where I can dissect teams, uh, possession by possession. I'm going to be pretty tough to beat. That's what it felt like watching to me because because, you know, the last two seasons, he didn't have stretches like this. Right. The Lakers were and obviously the Lakers were a much better team, but, you know, they were dominating people on defense. They could I watch games where they would just turn it up in the third quarter, turn teams over three times in a row, get a bunch of leak outs, a couple of threes and just, you know,

blow a team out and win comfortably. That's how they were winning games on defense. It wasn't about what LeBron was doing on offense, but because this team is so hard, has been so terrible defensively. And they literally needed every single bucket to inch out the little bit of wins that he's getting. He's doing it.

He's doing it. And, you know, as he's gotten older in age, which is why he hasn't won MVPs, guys. We got to stop saying LeBron can have 10 MVPs. No, he can't because he doesn't play hard all season long. He's not doing what Joel Embiid is doing all year long. He does it in stretches. And in other stretches, he's falling

back. I think he just showed, like, we need my offense. I'm coming out and doing it. This Westbrook thing is a mess. LeBron is still good. I enjoyed the Ramona Shelburne piece in ESPN.com today where the headline was like, there is no plan B with Westbrook. We have to make

this work. This is, by the way, what most smart basketball people were saying in July when they made the trade. It's like, you guys realize if this doesn't work, there's no outs.

There's no outs with this. It's self-inflicted. It's not like somebody left your team for greeting pastures. Although AC did, but y'all could have afforded to retain AC.

That was just straight up, we don't want to pay you type of situation. But like, you traded Kuz, you traded Kenny, you traded all of these people away. You brought in Westwood. Let Caruso go. You let Caruso like, this is all self-inflicted.

So like, yeah, you can't do anything about it. You know what reminds me? You've done the LA to Vegas drive, right? No, I still have not done that. We did the LA to Vegas drive, right? No, I still have not. I still have not done that. Only fly outs. We did the LA to Vegas drive. The smart move is to stay in the highway,

but sometimes you can get ambitious and be like, ah, there's traffic. I'm going to try to cut through and go around. And this is the Westbrook trade where it's like, ah, I'll cut through. You hit the point when you're trying to do the shortcut where you realize it's the worst idea you've ever had, but there's no going back.

You can't go back to the highway. You've gone too far. And it's still going to take forever to go around. And you've cost yourself an hour, an hour and a half. And at some point during that drive, you just hit this point of like sadness, regret. And then I'm just going to have to make the best of this. I'm in the car for another hour and a half more. I did this to myself. That's the Westbrook trade. It's like,

we are now in the sadness, regret. All right, let's just make the best out of this. Maybe there's going to be a Dunkin' Donuts at the next stop. Maybe there'll be a McDonald's. Oh, we'll get some gas. I'll buy some gum. That's where we're at. Yeah, and superstars are shortcuts, right? When you get them right, it's not about drafting Cam Johnson

and Mikael Bridges and lucking into the Chris Paul signing and drafting Devin Booker and drafting DeAndre Ayton and getting Amante Williams in there. And, like, that's team building the hard way, the long way. Aaron Neesmith, Romeo Langford, Peyton Pritchard. Same thing.

Time Lord. Sure, yeah. Very, very similar. But that's team building the hard way. Getting just being like, all right, yeah, his six picks, his three of our young guys, give me AD. That's the shortcut the hard way. Getting just being like, all right, yeah, his six picks, his three of our young guys, give me AD. That's the shortcut, you know?

And oftentimes it works, but oftentimes the shortcut ends up in Russell Westbrook and you end up in a ditch. Well, what's going to happen? And they're laying the groundwork. And I think that Ramona piece was interesting because we know like Jeannie Buss is a big source for her. We know she's wired in and you float that piece, the big takeaway, because it was all stuff we already knew, but the big takeaway is they're going to eventually make Westbrook come off the bench and he's going to be a six man. That's where this ends. They know he can't be out there in

crunch time. He has to be a six man. Frank Vogel has said to them, I'm sure, hey, you're going to fire me before I do the stuff that we need to actually try to win these games. And they'll just manage it. And if Westbrook gets bummed out and he pulls Ben Simmons and he's just like, I'm out, then they'll, then

guess what? They'll be like, oh, okay, Russell. Well, it was good seeing you. That'll be it. But this is going to end with him, him becoming a bench guy and playing 23 to 25 minutes a game. And that's how this is playing out. They were laying all the breadcrumbs.

Davis is now back. Didn't look very good tonight, but eventually this, this ends with him as like the seventh man on the team. And there's, that's it. And, and, and I think all roads would lead in this way because he's not in a position. They don't have a team that can maximize what he's still able to do,

which, to be honest, at this point isn't all that much. But they don't have a team that can just spread people out completely. The way it happened in Houston for that six-week period where he was the most efficient of his life, right? Yeah. Like, they blew up the team. Their center was Westbrook. You can't even say it was Covington.

Yeah, there were no centers. It was Westbrook, and he was able to thrive, right? Like, this five-out, spread him out. Until the playoffs. Attack a completely empty paint, right. The Lakers don't have that kind of roster, so they can't even put him in the space that he's best to excel at. Black, a completely empty paint. Right. The Lakers don't have that kind of roster, so they can't even put him in the space that he's best to excel at.

And the context of the Lakers, he don't fit. He don't fit. You know what the Lakers do have is a pretty oblivious and energetic play-by-play announcer. I don't know his name, but when they'll be down 15

and LeBron will get a fast break, but the king! It's just, he's in it. He's like WWE. He's going to sell this Lakers team, come hell or high water. I watch more of the Lakers than just about any other team this year

because I can't stay in the Lakers and I'm really enjoying this crazy season. But at the same time, I really respect LeBron. Like, I really think, like, he's gone all in. But meanwhile, this was all self-inflicted because we know he made the Westbrook trade. For sure.

Him and Kurt Rambis and these other guys. They don't make that trade without him. Yeah, you got to eat your vegetables, Bron. You wanted this. Come on now. You got to do this. I want to ask you, too, because this has been a thing on the internet as well

as, like, the James Worthy a thing on the internet as well as, like, the James Worthy post games on Spectrum when they lose. Oh, I've been into those for, like, five years. It's the funniest thing ever. He gets so upset. Nobody loves the Lakers more than James. James Worthy, dude. It's become a thing this year because, you know, I'm guessing he probably had some expectations for this team

this year. He's like, oh man, we got Westbrook, finally brought him home to LA and, you know, it's going to be great. Three All-Stars, Hall of Famers, Bellow, all it is. Dwight is going to be great and, you know. I didn't realize that became a thing because I feel like three, four, five years ago he was doing that and I would always hang around

to watch, see how bummed out he was. I hope nobody knows, right? Is James on social media? I hope not. I hope he stays as pure and as bummed out as he's always been. All right, Waz. Before we go, any prediction

for the trade deadline? Anything? Do we see a big one? I feel like this is the year we don't see a big one. Maybe a Sabonis goes somewhere and that's it. I don't think we see anything else. I think Jerry and Grant, Jeremy Grant,

I always get him and his brother confused. Jeremy Grant is absolutely going to get moved. And I think it's going to be a big deal for whatever team gets him. Yeah, but he's already said he doesn't want to be like a supporting –

I mean, that's why he didn't stay in Denver. He wants to be like one of the guys. It's like, all right, Jeremy Grant. I mean, that doesn't mean you won't get traded, right? So I think any team that would get him, whether it be in Atlanta – I know the Lakers are in on him, but they have absolutely nothing. If teams with actual stuff to give are in on him, they can't do it.

But I think he would make a big deal for any contender that got him in their building. I heard the Warriors might be interested. I've heard a bunch of different types of stuff about people interested in Grant. I do think ultimately the Simmons thing happens just because of what we talked about. I do too.

Yeah, this feels like a lot of posturing, but it's actually going to happen. It's going to happen because Joel is playing so well. And you have to give this guy a chance. Because, again, like what's so special about what Brooklyn is doing right now? All the injuries, all the unreliability of their stars, the playoff record of James Harden. What's so special about that? And ain't nobody scared of Milwaukee. I actually think they're going to win the championship this year if all they guys are healthy.

I think it's going to be Milwaukee Phoenix, my preseason pick. I'm feeling good about it. You know, but like, there's no reason to be like, oh, we can't possibly beat Milwaukee. There's no reason to feel that way. So you got to be in it, man. I feel like the Simmons thing has to happen at the deadline. I agree with you. I think the most important name,

weirdly, if Simmons doesn't get moved, is going to be Eric Gordon, because I do think he could really help a couple teams. As you know, I've fallen in love with the Cavs really early this season, but Eric Gordon, that's my guy for them. I think he would be absolutely huge for them. All right, Waz, we'll hear you at the Ringer NBA show on Wednesday, that's my guy for them. I think he would be absolutely huge for them. Alright, Waz, we'll hear

you at the Ringer NBA show on Wednesday and then weekends with Waz. Glad you're doing it. Good to see you as always. Alright, later, Bill. Alright, our guy David Ortiz made the Hall of Fame today. My friend Kevin Hench is here. He's been on this pod a few times. My

craziest Boston fan friend. You might remember him appearing in many of my columns in the 03, 04, mid-2000s when we were really insane. Now we're just like half insane about the Red Sox. Now we're dads. We're dads. Yeah. Then we were full-fledged heroin addicts.

I did send a text to our Red Sox thread today saying that I wish the season wouldn't start on time because there's no way Jackie Bradley Jr. would be able to hit 130 in April otherwise. And somebody else was like, hey, you know, Ortiz is getting Hall of Fame in two minutes. You gotta get more focused.

Day of all days. Maybe don't bitch about something that hasn't happened yet. The alternate universe where there's baseball. Anyway, Ortiz made it. Predictable outrage in certain corners because Bonds and Clemens didn't make it and people think Ortiz cheated, even though it's one thing in the New York Times.

We still, to this day, have no idea what substance he tested for in some bogus report that never got, never really got represented. Like, how did this come out? Why weren't more names out? And he's been tainted by it ever since. And I think it's bullshit, but I'm also a huge Homer as are you. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I I've got thoughts on the whole generation. And if you're the best player of your generation and your generation did steroids, you guys should all be in the hall of fame, but let's talk about big poppy who never failed an actual steroid test and

who, you know, I don't think anybody can really understand for, you know, for our generation, for your dad's generation, you know, like growing up and just having so much pain associated with the Red Sox and then kind of learning as you grew up that a lot of that pain was actually like the Yawkeys and like, we're terrible. Like the racial history of the city and the team and, you know, being a little kid and going, what, that's how they treated that guy? And they wouldn't let that guy play for them.

And so then to have this Dominican come in and transform, not just the culture, but say like, yeah, we're going to win world series now. I mean, it's just impossible to describe what that journey was like with that guy. And by the way, you and I side by side drunk in the 14th inning when he hit his first home run as a member of the Red Sox in the fifth. Oh, in Anaheim. Yeah. That was his first home run for the Red Sox in the 14th inning against the Angels in Anaheim. A game where we all had to make a donation to an animal charity because of our behavior. Because we were in the Disney box

and they weren't happy with our behavior. It was really, there were a couple of bad actors. But look, I mean, it's a suite and there's free beer. Yeah.

And there's a bunch of animals. And extra innings. It's the 14th inning. We didn't throw furniture. We were just drunk and loud. And there were no Angels fans left. so it got blown out of proportion. Yeah, we were taunting the Angels fans because they were leaving. I have some regrets.

But yeah, we were there for Ortiz's first. He changed everything. And then, you know, I mean, obviously, as you know, I'm a big believer that Julian Edelman belongs in the Hall of Fame because I think what you do in the biggest moments matters more than the raw accumulation of numbers. You know, it's like A-Rod has 696 career home runs. Should he be in the hall of fame? Of course, he's now on the Manny Ramirez trajectory. His starting number doesn't look good. Uh, and, and, and that's kind

of ridiculous, but you could say that A-Rod was not at his best when it mattered most. And when you look at what Poppy did in the hugest moments, and I just want to go through a couple of them. In 2013,

the Red Sox are one, no, no, no, the Red Sox are three for 51 with 30 strikeouts when he comes up against benoit with the bases loaded against against the tigers yeah we're about to go down two games to nil to zip to a team that has prime scherzer and verlander i mean like we can't score a run like we are dead and and he transforms that series with one clutch swing of the bat.

And we win that World Series in 2013. In 2004... By the way, that was the cherry on the fucking David Ortiz hot for Sunday. Oh my God. Because he was already like an iconic Red Sox player. And then 13, just that was it. It was done.

He was the most important Red Sox player ever. And the crazy World Series, and he finishes his World Series. You know, growing up, I was like, you just hear about Mickey Mantle in the World Series. And I was like, you knew Mickey Mantle had 18 home runs in the World Series. Like, this is unbelievable.

Mickey Mantle finished his career with a 9.07 OPS in the World Series. Poppy's OPS in the world series is 1372. It's insane. Anyway. Well, wait, go backwards.

Cause Oh four, Oh game four and game five. When our life changed, when I honestly think you, you, you probably would have had a heart attack by now. I look back from health wise. I don't know if you make it,

if we don't get out of, Oh four alive, even as a neutral watching what happened to the Bills on Sunday, I was like, how did I live through some of my stuff? I didn't really have a dog in the fight on Sunday. I felt so bad for Bills fans. So 2004, obviously there's a home run off Quantrill. There's the base hit off Loaiza.

But we're still in our PTSD in 2004. We're deep, deep, deep in Grady Little, Pedro Martinez, PTSD. And then going back, Shirabi, Bucky Denton and everything. You know, in game seven, I'm sure you remember it well. You've read 10,000 emails from me about Red Sox third base coaches, like literally all of their names. In 2007, first inning, Johnny Damien gets thrown out at the plate with,

with one out and big poppy coming to the plate. So it's like, you got a guy thrown out at the plate with one out and the greatest post season hitter of all time in the on deck circle. Oh, four. Yeah. Oh, four. Yeah. Oh, four. Oh,4. Game seven. Game seven. So now we look back at game seven as like a route that we kind of laugh about

with like, you know, like, wait a minute, who did Damon hit the grand slam off of? But at that point, to your point about my health, my physical health, I'm like, holy shit, this would be worse than getting swept.

Like if we get to game seven, Johnny Damon gets thrown out at home plate. Like, now I'm having a nervous breakdown. And then the wheels come off, yeah. By the way, that wasn't the only nervous breakdown of that game, because then Pedro, he brought Pedro in for reasons that remain unclear. And the fans start chanting,

and it's like, wait a second. What is happening? So, you know, I'm shitting. Damon's been thrown out at the plate. It looks like we might not score in the first inning. And then Poppy's like, everybody relax. I'm going to hit a bomb. Like, what do you think is going to happen?

I'm David Ortiz. Like, we don't even fully understand yet. Looking back, you're like, of course he hit a home run. Of course he just went up there and smoked a home run. And we were up two zip and everything. And I just relaxed. Like, my body relaxed. So, I mean.

Well, wait, go back to for the game five, game four, game five, which have now blended into one game for me. And I don't even remember when the hits were. But at various points, he has the homer off Quantrill. But he also has the homer against Flash Gordon. Was that four or five? I can't even one of them were down two runs and he goes opposite field into the monster. He has the game winning hits in both games. It's going to be like one of our Patriots podcasts. No, it's just, I just think those two games have merged into one game in my

head, but I know he had game winning hits in both of them and I was there watching them and it was just, he had so many hits over the course of four days. I can't even keep track of them. And I was there watching them and it was just, he had so many hits over the course of four days. I can't even keep track of them. I just, you know, there's a, just a great 20 minute poppy highlight reel. Half of which is huge clutch post-season hits. And you're watching it games. You were at, obviously you watched all the games. You're like, Oh, I forgot about that one.

Well, there's the Angels one that year. Yeah. I forgot we were dead to rights when he carried us on his back again that time. And then there just was that point where Manny and Poppy just wouldn't make any outs for entire games. Right. Well, they would have those stretches, the 0-7 playoffs. I felt like the Indians were probably better than us. And it was just those two guys together.

It was like watching two basketball players just get hot. Yeah, they'd be 10 for 10 on base. They just would never make an out. It was amazing. I've never liked baseball. I'll never like it as much since what we had with Ortiz and Manny together. Pedro and Pedro. Well, and the Pedro thing, too.

But the Ortiz thing, and the reason it's such a big day for Red Sox fans is he's the most important player we ever had. He changed the culture. He changed the way I think about baseball and sports and life. He was like this big, gigantic teddy bear.

He had amazing, just, energy day-to-day, week-to-week. There was that moment, what was that, in 08 or 09? I remember I wrote a column about it where it just seemed like he was washed up. It seemed like it was over. And it was so sad to watch him go out. He was hitting like 200. And then he rallied back in 2013

and ended up being his last thing. But like, you know, when people talk about the PDs and stuff with him, he looked exactly the same the entire time he was on the Red Sox. He looks the same now. It's not like they, when you see the football players retire and they're 70 pounds lighter on TV the next year,

he, he's just a big fucking dude. Yeah. He had a huge frame in, in Minnesota. And I don't know, I, I had never seen this before,

but there's video of him in the minors beating A-Rod and Griffey, who were already in the majors, in a home run hitting contest in Appleton, Wisconsin. I don't know what this event was, but there's video of it. So yeah, it was only the twins who were like, don't hit homers, man. We got to hit gappers. Well, you know the other thing that he did for us? And Pedro started it. But our entire lives, we never had anyone the Yankees were afraid of. Yankee fans, right? They always had the guys we were afraid of.

Then Pedro hit that two-year window where the Yankee fans were like, Jesus, we can't beat this guy. But we didn't have enough. Then Ortiz and Manny together, because Manny was another one who killed them. But Ortiz became this... He flipped the rivalry. They were the hammer. We were the nail for eight decades. And he flipped it.

And by the end of 2013, he was the guy who owned the Yankees, not vice versa. And we were never more the nail than in Game 3 of the 2004 lcs like right they were hitting the wall so every sheffield and a rod like it was such a bludgeoning uh and and little did we know that a hero was about to rise and and really just redefine red sox history and i it's funny you talk about the energy because I know some of the people

who are bitching about it, you know, are like, people like Poppy. They like him. You know, he's a good guy. And I just don't believe that it's a coincidence that the best player

on the Pirates and Giants for all those years didn't win a World Series who happens to be a fucking asshole. Like, he's a huge asshole. And he never, it does matter. Your leader, your best player, your most clutch player, if he's a good guy that people like seeing

when they get to work, it matters. It makes a difference. And so it's not like, you know, Albert Bell was a bad guy and Mo Vaughn was a good quote, so he stole his MVP award, which he did. I really do think Poppy's energy infused the whole team with a winning attitude. Like, he's a winner. That guy's a winner.

Like, your leader is a winner. And I always felt like with Bonds, you know, of course, the most incredible baseball player in our generation, anybody ever saw. He's number one for me. I just, you know, I was like, obviously it's a different sport. It's not like basketball players where you can actually make people around you better. Um, but I, you know, I got the feeling like it wasn't, wasn't great to see Barry when you got to work. That wasn't a, that wasn't a great part of your day. I think that was a fair assessment.

Look, I've been on the record since the mid-2000s about this. I think all these guys should be in. I think it's absolutely... I don't know why we have a baseball fan. If we're not going to have Bonds and Clemens and A-Rod and Manny Ramirez, basically all of the iconic guys from the 2000s and the 90s, and those guys just aren't going to be in the museum that's devoted to teaching people about baseball, then we fucked up.

And whether you have to put it on their plaque or you have to put them in their own room, I don't know what you need to do, but it's a museum and you can't just pretend certain things didn't happen. Bonds is the best left fielder I ever saw in my life. He has to be in the Hall of Fame. Well, the worst thing you could do would be to just vote for Jeff Kent.

Just voting for Jeff Kent would be the worst. Nothing would indicate... Who did that, Shaughnessy? Yeah. Nothing would indicate more that you need to have your badge revoked than saying, hey man, the way I saw the game, Jeff Kent was the best player of the last 50 years.

It's insane. The sanctimony from, you know, up on Mount Pius, as Shaq calls it, is it's nuts. And by the way, Papelbon got a vote. You you you're. It's not and I think what the astros did is much worse right you know you know what pitch is coming changes the game uh you still have to make contact if you're on steroids like i mean it's like yes it's giving you a percentage edge but this idea well first of all the pitcher might be on steroids too but like you know bonds got to a point where the advantage shifted to the hitter obviously bonds was basically like on the limitless drug he was like brad the cooper he was on the nhz 48 or whatever cooper was in that movie like it

like is you look at his stats and it actually seemed, they seem fake from those three years. They don't seem like real stats. The six 37 OPS over 200 walks that one year, the, all that stuff. You just look at it and you're like, what is this? Would, you know, and I thought I was listening to MLB network and I thought, you know, they're the guys like bonds and Clemens where you track their career and you're like, they were going to be Hall of Famers. Steroids was almost the fuck you, watch how good I could be. Sosa

does feel like a guy that might not... He needed the help. Yeah. I mean, he actually, it seemed like he grew cheekbones. It seemed like, I don't know who took the most or who did, but whatever.

But Sosa transformed, I think, from when you see this stuff. He was like this speed and power guy in the early 90s, right, in Texas. But they didn't really even have the rules until 2004, 2005. They looked the other way. And FYI, if people think guys now in 2022 aren't bending the rules in certain ways too, like, well, you probably believe in Santa Claus. It is embarrassing. I mean, it's funny.

Poppy, maybe I'll take your son since I don't have anyone who's interested in baseball in my family. But I haven't been to the hall since college. And Poppy was like, that'd be a good reason to go back. Poppy's black. But it is weird. What does it even mean if the best player and best pitcher? No, it's been ruined. Here's my last question for you.

Then we're going to go. This is very important okay cause my dad sent me his Boston Mount Rushmore oh I I

yeah okay um and he had Ortiz as the Red Sox player which I did too so basically we grew up our whole life Ted Williams is the greatest hitter

of all time. He's Mr. Red Sox. Ironically, uh, made one world series and we lost that world series. He kind of symbolized the Red Sox. He went five for 25,

I believe in that world series. Yeah. But it was like classic Red Sox. It's like, we've never won a world series, but we had the best hitter ever. Now, maybe we didn't win the world series to them,

but he was the best hitter ever. I think Ortiz took the spot from him. And I don't even think it's really debatable, but I do think some people, like, nope, Ted Williams, 406 in 1941. He's got to get the spot. To me, it has to be Ortiz. You know, and even Ted Williams himself to his infinite credit, you know, said like

this Hall of Fame doesn't really mean anything if Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige aren't in it. So it's hard, you know, the, the steroid era is, is less corrupted than stats from a pre-integrated baseball era for sure. You know, couldn't agree more. Yeah. So, and, and as somebody who, who championships is always going to be my deciding factor. So, you know, my my Rushmore, it's funny. This is just a byproduct.

Obviously, if I if I if I was one hundred and one hundred and fifty instead of in my fifties, I would probably have Bill Russell as myself. But growing up with Larry, it's just hard to not have Larry. And then, you know, Brady, obviously the GOAT of his sport. Bobby Orr, the GOAT of his sport. The greatest, the greatest hockey player ever lived. You know, I mean, yeah, Big Papi. It's just, you had to watch it and like live it every day to understand how he took this cursed moribund dead culture and

transform it into like, you literally expected to win. We literally went from, how are we going to lose this game to what is this guy going to do to carry us to another? Take us home. Yeah. The,

the, those three, the three spots are secure. Brady Ortiz and or, and then the Russell bird thing feels generational. I personally think they probably both have to be in for different reasons. For me, it's hard for me

not to have Bird on there when it was like a religious experience in the 80s. But Russell won 11 titles in 13 years. I think he keeps the spot. He's the greatest team sport athlete of all time. But yeah. All right. Great day for the Red Sox Nation. And to all the Yankee fans who texted me today and gave me shit and called Ortiz a cheater,

you can all fuck off. Kevin Hedge, great to see you. Thanks, buddy. All right. Our guy Charles Oakley is here. He came on in 2018. It was one of the most popular episodes we ever had on this podcast. Told a bunch of stories.

The common refrain after was, why doesn't that had on this podcast. Told a bunch of stories. The common refrain after was, why doesn't that guy write a book? He's got great stories. Well, you're actually, he wrote a book. You did it. You did it with Frank Gazzola. This happened. What made you, what made you finally succumb and write a book?

Well, like you said, you know, playing in New York and always on the back page of one of the papers and people saying, oh, speak his mind and just playing to the league against a lot of guys people don't know stuff about. And growing up, my grandfather always said, believe in yourself. So I feel it was the time. Like I said, we had a great interview back in 2018 and everything was great on that. So it's a great book. So on a scale of one to 10, how deep did you go versus the stuff? Like if you're a 10, the stories you have,

would you go like a seven for the book, six and a half, eight? When I did your interview, I told you that was my C work. And that was like seven. So this is about eight and a half, nine. So I still got some left in the tank. You got enough for a sequel. I was just reading

Chris Herring's Nick's book about the 90s Knicks and all the characters on that. The last time you were on, I don't feel like we deep dove Anthony Mason enough and some of the characters on that team because you know Mason legendary character he's no longer with us but um he would test different people you

had multiple guys in that team who would test other people because you had him and you had you had the x-man you you didn't test anyone you didn't need to be tested because you always knew you're gonna win did Mason text you and if you? And if he did, what happened? Yeah. I mean, Mason was a local kid from New York. He came in there, you know, he didn't get drafted, you know, Tennessee State. But we had a couple of battles in practice.

You know, Pat Riley rules for his window out of bounds. So one day he was in practice and he went to the ball real casual. I just came and just pushed him down and got the ball. My team went down and scored.

Mace came and was like, I said, it's no out of bounds, Mace. What are you talking about? So we had maybe that was on the running

we really had we squared up but he said, okay, all right. So he knew from now the ball was out of bounds it still didn't play. know, we squared up. But he said, okay, all right. So he knew from now on, the ball's out of bounds. It's still in play. So get the ball up.

Pick the ball up. So, yeah. No, me and Macy ended up being the best of all friends. And like I said, you know, rest in peace. You know, his mom passed like six, eight months later after he passed. But we lost a soldier. He was a great guy. Is it true he didn't sleep?

I don't know. I didn't sleep that much. We didn't believe in sleep. You know, I know I'm not a big sleeper, so I don't, I mean, I know Mace like to have a good time, so he kind of had to get a couple hours of sleep because our practice was like, you know, you couldn't just go without no sleep.

You know, an hour or two, so I guess that really ain't a without no sleep. You know, I would too, so I guess that really ain't a lot of sleep. But he showed up every day to work. That's all that matters. Do you feel, because in the book they talk about this, the Chris Herring book about that the league definitely started changing the rules

as the 90s went along and the Knicks were responsible for a lot of it. If they're not changing the rules, because you came really close a couple of times. In 92, you take the Bulls to game seven. 90, 93, Charles Smith game. 94, you have two chances to win the title. 95, the Ewing finger roll.

But the rules are shifting against you during that four-year run. If the rules don't shift against you, what happens? I think we would have got back there and we could have won one, but the rules started shifting, like you said, towards a more leaning for the greater players, the sexy players like a Mike or Kobe or this and that. So when you see them guys get banged up on TV

and the ratings going down and the commission starts to hit breaks and really dive into how can we get this league back where it should be at a global level. And they figured it out.

They changed this rule, that rule. And they said, you know, Chicago won 6 out of 8 and we went the other way. I mean, nobody in the 90s,

there were a lot of altercations. Nobody actually got hurt, but you still had the shadow of the Kermit Washington, Rudy Tomjanovich thing, which happened well before you came to the league. But that was the one time somebody actually really got hurt during a fight. And I think they were always scared of that.

In your era, the guys are getting bigger and bigger. I mean, you were lifting weights and doing all that stuff when you were in high school, college. When did you start lifting weights? High school, we really didn't have a lot of weights. But more in college, we didn't have a lot of weight. But I found out a way to, you know, get a workout in. Well, in my school, I worked out with more of the football

than the basketball because all we had was a bench press and a leg press. And the football facility had more everything kind of weight. So a few days I snuck into the cage with the football players. And then they saw how strong I was. I was lifting just as much as some of them guys. So they were like, wow, once you play tight end, I'm going to stick with basketball.

You could see the sizes. Like, you know, during when the pandemic started and the Jordan documentary was on and it was hard not to get caught up in watching those 90s games again. Everybody was doing it. And you could see the sizes of the players shift even as the Jordan documentary

and everybody got bigger. Now it's like a combo of you have some really, really big dudes, but then you also have kind of the old school, like the more athlete guys, and they have a better mix of that. What would your body look like right now? Would you look the same?

Because there's better equipment, better everything now. What would it look like? I mean, they had equipment back then. That's why we was looking at what we were looking. I think now, they're into more like bands and doing a lot of yoga, robo stuff like that. looking. I think now they're into more like bands and

doing a lot of yoga, roving, stuff like that. More of like a slimmer... Most of the guys, all of them is slim and not really too much toned muscles. So it's definitely a shift. And I think that it's more of a finesse game now. More of a stretch.

My position now is a stretch four. It's a stretch. My position now is a stretch four. It's a stretch five. So it definitely changed, I guess, for the global league.

So now, if you look around NBA now, 30% of the guys as European back in my area

are probably 5% if that. You're right. You would have been messing with all 30% of those guys, I think.

Jokic is your kind of guy. He's actually tough. He doesn't mess around. I don't know how tough he is, but he ain't playing against somebody. I don't know how he do it, but every year his name in the MVP race, but he get his 27, 10, and 7. It's amazing. And you look at his body.

Yeah, and he really has gotten better every year. I think if you're playing now, I think you're probably like 7, 8 pounds. Lighter. Not thinner, but lighter. But you're still as strong because I think there's better ways to keep that strength. Well, I think now, I mean, it'll be good.

You know, somebody asks me that question all the time. Like, if you play in the era, I say it'd be more easy. There's a lot more rebounds. And guys do not go for, like, you'll get a lot of second shots now.

Unless it's long three-point shots. Most guys just, when they shoot, they run back. They don't crash the ball that much. Well,

you would have extended your range, too. You just would have, the 18-footer would have been a 23-footer, and it would have been worth three points instead of two. I think you could have pretty easily done that.

Yeah, I mean, my thing was I played my role. And that's what you see in this game. Ain't too many guys got roles unless you got a demanding player like a LeBron, Chris Paul, or some of your veterans now who understand the game. I think that's what happens with a lot of teams now. You see everybody just shooting the ball

with no time of possession. They don't understand. You don't see too much IQ like you used to see. Your position's basically gone. There's not a lot of power forwards left, but I don't know if it's because

the power forwards that came into the league, they just are used to playing 25 feet from the basket, so they don't know how to play near the basket anymore or whether that's just the way the sports change. But it's probably a combo of both.

But I still feel like if you were in the league right now, you would have figured out how to get 12 rebounds a game. And, you know, I don't think you would have been 25 feet from the basket, I guess is my point. No. I mean, no, because you see most teams trying to play the spread offense. And they want, like, a pick and roll and a penetrate off the dribble.

Next guy roll back up the pick, shoot a three. It's just totally different. I mean, some nights, some threes go, but 80%, 70% of the time, they don't go. They still keep shooting them. I don't like it as much.

That's why I was so excited that teams are doing weirder stuff to share. The Cavs are like this old school team with size. It's fun. They have a center and a power forward. Even Markenden's got some size. They're just like, hey, we're... They can do it because Mobley's such a good defensive player.

Back in the... Especially the first part of your career, your defense allowed teams to go against bigger, smaller teams. because Mobley is such a good defensive player which you know back in the especially the first part of your career your defense allowed teams to go against bigger smaller teams but Mobley is like

the best modern version I think of that oh yeah he's hey the Cavs they put it

together in two years basically you know they drafted them two small guards they didn't

want to get Mobley they got the trade for Allen they get the kid from Chicago in free agent. Love went to the bench. A veteran coming in

mature. They 10 games over 500. They probably expected to win maybe 30 games this year, 32. They already had 29. You have a soft spot for the Cavs. Just in general. Four years ago, you were talking about it.

LeBron came back and showed a lot of love winning the championship. The city needed that. They needed that something to really wake up in the morning and bring a drink.

They called for a conversation. The Indians lost to the Cubs. They were 3-1. And the Browns just can't get it right. They got all their talent just can't get it right. And then Cincinnati

passed them up in one year. Well, they're two number one quarterbacks, right? And Cincinnati got the good one. And Cleveland got the one that might not be good. That's how it works, 50-50. You don't think there's any chance LeBron comes back to Cleveland, right? Wow, who knows? I mean, they put something together, you never know.

I mean, he can come back with another home deal. I keep waiting for him to tweet something out. Like, man, it's so great what they're building in Cleveland. And everybody's going to go, uh-oh. Oh, my God. Does this mean he might come back? I don't think they got enough three-point shooting. LeBron liked his face on the floor.

It crawled up in Cleveland. So he had to be a guy on the wing, shooting a lot of threes when he came into Cleveland. Unless they're going to break up the nuclear what they got now. They got something going on good. I don't think they would. He's got next year he's a free, after next year he's a free agent with the Lakers. And he's

in this just bizarre Lakers situation now where they go all in on Westbrook and the team doesn't fit. Have you played on a team like that where it's just pretty clear early on the pieces don't fit? I can't really say, but my thing is, I know one other

thing that's going on. LeBron's going through what Jordan went through his first five years, six years in the league. Average 38 and 8 is still losing. Until the Skylar game, they got in the league. Average 30, 38-8 and still losing. And then, you know, in the Tuscany game, they got an extra piece. So, the Lakers, AD out,

Westbrook, you know, still trying to find himself. They said, you know, he was flying Southwest and Southwest sent his back to Spears. Spears is the trans and he's just lost out there. I don't understand, but I guess it's the offense. He just, he liked to go

up and down. LA won a one sometimes, but walked all up sometimes. So, I don't know. Yeah, I think with Westbrook, the thing that was so fun to watch with him, and it was also for better and worse for the team. Sometimes it would go badly,

sometimes it would go well, but he was just always attacking, right? And He was just always attacking. It's just like balls to the wall the whole time. Now with this Lakers team, he's cautiously dribbling it up and handing it off to LeBron. I just don't think he's meant to play that way. I don't

even know if he's a winning player at this point in his career. Could you win three playoff rounds with him at this point? Probably not, but whatever this version is, it doesn't work. He might have to deal with Kevin a little bit. Come off the bench. I know it'd be a hard pill to swallow.

In his mind, his game plan, I don't think he can do it. The Lakers, I don't know. They might either be stuck with him or have to trade him to someone that somebody would need a superstar that needs fans, brings fans to the game, like a Psycho Manta or the Pacers.

I mean, you got to give up a lot. You know, his contract is big. And if they can trade him, they're not going to get the value for the contract they traded. They can't trade him. Nobody wants him. He's made like 47 million bucks.

Yeah, well, Cam Newton came back. Nobody wanted him, so. Right, it's like 47 million bucks yeah well cam noon came back nobody wanted him so um you played ewing was past a little past his prime near the end your last year in the next but he was still good he was still like you know a top 25 guy it wasn't like really till the late 90s when he dipped and then you saw your your guy Jordan when he went to the Wizards. He's in a different phase of his career, right? And when a superstar hits that point where they're not a superstar anymore, sometimes they're the last guy to realize

it. So maybe that's what's happening with Westbrook. I mean, we talk about Patrick and Michael Jordan and Westbrook. But see, the difference between all three of them, Michael Jordan has six reigns. Michael Jordan in Westbrook. But see, the difference in all three of them, Michael Jordan had six reigns. Michael Jordan could still sell tickets.

He was still a fan and favorite in Washington. I don't think when Patrick went to Seattle, Westbrook, you know, they're not a fan and favorite no more. You know, Patrick career, when he left New York, that was his house. So he went to another block. He didn't know nobody. So Seattle wasn't a big thing for Patrick.

It was like fans coming out. Michael Jordan brought him out no matter what he was with. Right. That's the big difference. Yeah. And Ewing's knees were gone. Westbrook physically doesn't seem that bad. Like he seems kind of Westbrook-y.

It's just he's like this piece that doesn't fit in for whatever reason. He still got all his abilities, it seems like. But it seems like he's losing his mentality to understand basketball. Physically, he's there. You know, you see the dunk the other night on Rudy there? He just came out in the middle and just dunked it.

Yeah. These ups and downs, I don't know. The Lakers got their hands full. They lose them to the good I don't know. The Lakers got their hands full. They, they beating the bad, they losing to the good team, beat every other bad team. So they 500.

If they just, AD come back and just bring them more like he did in the bubble, I think they can make a push, but they got to get a, they got,

they need like a six or seven game win streak and they haven't had more than what, three all year, I think. I think AD needs to spend a couple weeks at Oakley's three all year I think. I think AD needs to spend a couple weeks

at Oakley's house. Yeah. I think he needs to go to Oakley school and get a little toughened up. Six years ago I was in Chicago he was at a birthday party

his financial advisor had a party and I was there and I said AD why are you shooting all these three? That's not your game. I said you're the best

mid-range like a Karl Malone or you know Glenn Robinson just kill him with the mid-range, like a Karl Malone or Glenn Robinson. Just kill them with the mid-range. They got a double team. That means somebody else on the team. But then I hear the coach said, we want AD to shoot six threes.

I said, oh, Lord. That killed that. Who's your favorite player to watch now in 2022? Who's your number one? Who's your number one? I mean, on the East, probably,

probably, I like Embiid, but he just, if he went in the post and the Phillies shouldn't, they could win just about 80% of the game, but he wanted to shoot threes,

but he playing well this year. He playing well. I. He's playing well. I know Simmons is not playing. LeBron and Curry are out west. Curry started off, but he's slowing down a little now. LeBron picking it up. Yeah. What would you

tell Ben Simmons? Ben, they gave you $180 million. You couldn't shoot. Go play basketball, man. It's the basketball. It ain't about you. They paid you.

Go play. My thing is, you hold your team harsh right now because they believe in you. Now, you want to sit out because you can't handle criticism. You're in the wrong place, Philadelphia. He'll never play in Philly again. No fans going to kill out because you can't handle criticism, you're in the wrong place, Philadelphia. He'll never play in Philly again. No fans going to kill him up there.

Philly's the worst fan. Players trying to fight against what's going on as a team? Nah. He got to go. His value is down. Would you trade for him if you were another team? At this point, when you have somebody who literally walks away from half of a $33 million? Like at this point, when you have somebody who literally walks away from

half of a $33 million paycheck, at that point, the question has to be, does this person want to play basketball? So, my thing will trade him to Detroit and in Detroit trade two guys for Westbrook and then Detroit will have two guys

that, you know, they'll bring some fans out. Westbrook still got an engine. And Simmons still, you know, he probably can still play, but not as structured as teams want him to play because he won't shoot a jump shot. Not really a great free throw shooter, but they say he played great defense. But I didn't see it last year when they played Atlanta in the playoff.

Atlanta beat him. He was playing then. Yeah, and he looked. I'm with you. He's 25. The way to get better at basketball is to actually play basketball. Yeah, he needed to go to a team like Detroit. So you're thinking a crappy team that he could go,

he could make his mistakes, get his feet under him, the whole thing versus the huge spotlight of Philly. Yeah, I think I agree. But I don't think that's how it's going to play out. No. But they want a lot for him. But I don't think you can get maybe

a late first round for him and maybe a second and a playoff. The value is, I mean, I don't know what Philly's saying. But the problem is, if you're Philly, though, you have Embiid in his prime you need to get something back that will help you win

the title with Embiid so you can't like trade him for future assets so you need a guy who's good now and nobody wants to give up a guy who's good now for a guy who's not playing

so it's like it's like this game of chicken that nobody's gonna win I mean I know he hurt in Cleveland but I don't know this year what to expect. I would trade, you know,

it'd be two minutes seven for Cleveland. I would trade Simmons for Sexton in Cleveland. They need to come. That'd be interesting. Sexton's out for the year, though. I know, but Bill Simmons is too. What would you tell Kyrie? I like Kyrie.

I wouldn't say nothing. I mean, the league, the league, when he played a role, the league marking him when he played at home,

they don't. So, it's a New York situation because, you know, he ain't vaccinated. But you can come out, out of town,

can come and play. I mean, I believe in Kyrie. Hey, Bill, Bill, Bill Wong did it for the Clippers back in the day.

He only played home game. He didn't travel. It wasn't a big deal. At least it's a pandemic. I mean, hey, these players got a lot of power in them. And I think that's what's hurting the league a little bit because they can voice their opinion. And I know it's about money.

So they're getting away with a lot. How are you in the Knicks these days? Because your guy World Wide West is there now. Is it better? No, he's sitting by his best friend, that guy who owns the team. So we're still in litigation right now, so we'll see what happens. I wish him all the luck, the team. They're going through it too because Randall's not playing as good

as this year when he played last year. You know, I know they went to Cleveland and played pretty well last night, but Cleveland was missing two starters and they still beat them. So, I don't know. I think last year the play against Atlanta would hurt them when they had the number four seed and Atlanta came and beat them, you know, I don't know. I think last year the playoff against Atlanta would hurt them

when they had the number four seed and Atlanta came and beat them four out of five. Yeah. That was like, okay, take a look at your team. You're not as good

as you think you are. So, there's no way. And look how Atlanta are playing this year. They're five games under.500. They need, that's a team that needs Oakley.

That team seems soft to me. Yeah. It's too much three-point shooting that needs Oakley that team seems soft to me yeah too much three point shooting and softness on that team that's the lead and a little

they want him to shoot threes but I think Atlanta Atlanta they warming up a little I think they want like four out of five Trey Young

and he's I mean sometimes you try to get guys involved you see now ain't no more time to waste let me just do my thing. Go and get your 35 and 10

and let them play off of him now. Well, the good news is at least they fixed some of the garbage offense, like the lurching into people for fouls and some of the dumb stuff. Basically, like rewarding scores for being theatrical, trying to create contact. Now it seems more like basketball this year.

Well, that's what hurt James Harden this year. He's not getting them flops. They're not bailing him out. And plus, most of the time when you come from the West, it's a little more deep cross the mind in the East than West. So now, it's his second year. He's still having to found himself. Because it's a little tough.

A little wear and tear. It's a little tough in the East. So the Knicks thing, it's not little tough. A little wear and tear. It's a little tough with these. So the next thing isn't, it's not getting solved anytime soon? I don't know. We still, like I said, we still in the courthouse. Still working things out.

I wish it would never, I wish it would never a problem like this because I love the fans. I love the city. I just wish it wouldn't happen. This would never happen. So we have to wait

and see how it play out. I haven't talked to you since the last dance came out with Jordan. Yeah. And you were a character and you weren't in it as much as I wanted you to have been in it, but you were in it. And it, they dropped that during the pandemic and you have basically everybody under

30 who wasn't there for the Jordan thing and they watch it and it's like, oh my God, he was so good. He's, oh, he really was the GOAT

and it becomes this Michael Jordan love fest for four or five weeks. What was it like for you watching all of that happen? Well, it was great.

You know, they pushed it up. It was sort of come out later. They seen that, you know, people's at home, nothing to do. They need some contests.

And ESPN and I think Netflix really did a good job for us pushing it up. And, you know, it was a lot of stuff in there. A lot of people got hurt. I think that, you know, it's showing that, you know, people think on teams everything is all good, a brotherhood, but it's pulled a lot of people apart. And the reason why I wasn't on that lot because Dennis Rodman got a ring

and they wanted more crazy stuff. I'm not crazy. Dennis had a lot of crazy, you know, all the stuff he was doing. But it was good. I know every Monday after we went off, I always called Mike and talked to him about it. And he said, Mike, you got a lot of guys mad. I said, okay and talked to him about it. And he said,

so Mike, you got a lot of guys mad. I said, okay, they shouldn't have did it. I said, yeah, you're right. I'm like,

who's going to turn you down? Right. So, so Mike had fun with the people. You know, if you look at the last dance

and look at the Hall of Fame speech, he's going to do one more thing. You know, it says it's got to be three things. He's going to do one more thing. Like I said it gotta be three things he gonna do one more thing like I said

I'm gonna do another you know my the podcast with Judith's book another book so I told somebody this yesterday

I was doing something every great player had to do something every 10 or 20 years that people never expected you to do well so what would be next for Jordan

he did the documentary he bought the Hornets so there's one more act he got a race car team he gonna you'll do it. Well, so what would be next for Jordan? He did the documentary. He bought the Hornets. So there's one more act. He got a race car team. He go, he go do one more big, you know,

he's be 60 this year. So he go, you know, he'll do one more thing before he gets 70. The third thing could have been when he did, uh, the forward my book. So you never know. He did the forward for your book.

Yeah. I gave him $10. Wow. Well, he owed you. Yeah. You know, they say you got a life insurance policy. So that's it. When you're watching that,

are you thinking about the what ifs about if you're just there, if they don't take the no cart ride trade? How many titles could they have won if they just had you? Did they need cart right to win those? Are you going down that path in your head again? I try not to think about that because I had no control of the trade because I got traded.

When I made that trade, they made that trade. I just said, I'm going to a better place. I'm in New York. It's a big city. They named it twice but once I got there I didn't see that from Michael

to Patrick I didn't see that that it fact you know like G there's some guys yeah Patrick was missing that it fact

he was a good guy but he didn't have that it fact to be to win rings to win a championship you go through you know the

Larry Bird Magic Johnson Mike Colby LeBron and like even on King DeLarge one them guys had the

it fact Patrick did have the it fact I don't know if you know he was a center but he played well he got 20 and something

but Akeem was the you know he had the it fact his playoffs on his team everybody talk about Akeem like around the league they didn't talk about

Patrick around the league like that. Like a LeBron, a Kobe, a Mike, Bird. No. Well, so,

that's a really interesting like, what you just laid out. Because I agree with you. Ewing never totally got there. He was really close. He was the level right below. I feel like Barkley got there

that first year in the Suns. It just, he went against Jordan who's the best player of all time, who's playing the best he's ever played. So now you would look at it and go, well, Barkley never got there because he never won the title. But I actually feel like he went toe-to-toe with Jordan that season,

and Jordan's just the best ever. Well, I give Barkley a little more credit than Patrick because he could do more. All the guys we talk about could put the, you know, he was just a little, you know, you know, we don't see eye to eye, but, you know, I give him, he was, because he could get the rebound,

bring it up and down. See, Patrick, he can get the rebound. You got to walk it up and give it to him. See, Barkley was more of a, he could play the passing lane. He was a more excited player than Patrick. And you think about the players, maybe it's a bird,

Magic was excited, George was excited, Kobe, LeBron, all them guys was excited. All them guys got rings. Right. Well, and Barkley could create for other people and things like that.

When did you, when did things turn for you and Barkley? Was that when you were playing or was it when the, during the lockout? Probably in Phoenix when he tried to snag me much in, in the game.

And he said he was just playing. And I said, ain't you got some kids at home to play with? So what'd you do after he did that? That's when we got into it in Phoenix. So after that, it been popping like popcorn. Yeah, we I don't want to tell the same stories we told

on the last podcast. But on the last podcast you told the whole story about the lockdown. Uh, another thing that happened since the last podcast from the last dance, Pippin and Pippin just went, he just kind of lost it and gave crazy interviews and turned on Jordan all these different ways. So you think the documentary dredged up all this

Pip and Jordan stuff. And now it seems like that can't go back in the bottle. Yeah, I think it's a little more about the book. But the book, you know, made it come all the way out. You know,

they was playing golf together a few months before the last day it came out. You know, because Scotty went out and talked to Mike about some stuff. together, you know, a few months before the last day it came out, you know, because Scottie went out and talked to Mike about some stuff. And, you know, I talked to Scottie from time to time. Plus, he did my cooking show, Chopping Up with Oakley. Yeah. You know, I think he feel like they didn't present him more in the last dance.

I think they did Dennis Robin more than Scottie and Steve Curry. But my thing to that is Curry did way more Dennis Robin more than Scottie and Steve Curry. But my thing to that is Curry did way more off the court than Scottie. Dennis probably have two. But on the court, Scottie did a lot more in both of them. But Scottie felt like he was left out a little.

He felt like Jordan would have six reigns if it wasn't for him. I asked Mike about Scottie and Magic. He said he would win more reigns with Scottie reign if it wasn't for him. And I asked Mike about, you know, Scotty and Magic, who was, which one. He said he would win more reigns with Scotty. Scotty can do more than Magic. And, you know, he always praised

Scotty. Always praised Scotty. Never, you know, talked down about him, but I don't know what happened since the last dance, you know. See, like, they just, you know, I don't, I don't think he would you know like he probably said okay

Scotty said this stuff about me okay I'm not gonna send he's not gonna send it back in the press and all of that to try to go back to Scotty he's gonna just keep doing

what he's doing play golf fish and relax and watch you know smoke cigars well it's tough because I love Scotty

as a player I mean he I thought he was great he was like a LeBron James but not not as off as a man in LeBron. Yeah. I thought he was the most underrated guy from your generation. And a guy like Steve Kerr, who I really respect his opinion,

and he said it was the best teammate he ever had. And that he was always about team, team, team. How can I help the team? Who, Michael Scottie? He played here, Scottie. Like he was playing hurt, doing whatever it took to just try to keep winning titles. And Scotti probably felt like that wasn't reflected enough in the documentary. And then it dredges up all this other stuff that was in his head anyway.

And now all of a sudden you're saying crazy stuff. I think what hurt Scotti was some things he said would make other stuff to come out. Like when he wouldn't go back in the game. Yeah. When he wouldn't have surgery. And he pro-loaned surgery during the summer

to the season because they weren't paying. Three things. The contract, not going back in the game, and not having hurt him in the last game. Because everybody got a chance

to see like, wow, Scotty, you gave up on your team. But then he tried to come back. Well, Mike left the team for two years. I mean, you know, so it's on your team. But then he tried to come back. Well, Mike left the team for two years. I mean, so it's a lot of... By the way, that's true.

You know, like, that's true. Like, MJ left the team for 20 months, you know, and I don't know. The thing with Scottie, I've defended him before about, you know, Jordan leaves that next year, Scottie's the guy. Everything has to go through him, and he's like, he next year, Scottie's the guy. Everything has to go through him. And he's like, he's the guy.

He's the alpha. And then they don't give him the ball in that game. And he just kind of, he doesn't handle it well. He makes a mistake. But I don't hold that against him. I also don't hold it against him that they took advantage of him with that contract for like seven years.

And he finally snapped with that. He didn't want to play hurt. He had a free agency coming, you know? But Scottie should have realized Jared Rhymes, though, I mean, if he wouldn't get a redo Michael contract, he's never going to redo yours. Right.

So, Michael signed a seven-year and Scottie signed a seven-year deal. So, after two or three years, after the Michael contract, numbers went up the same way with Scottie. But Jared Rhymes, though, like I said, So after two or three years, after the Michael contract, numbers went up the same way with Scottie. But Jerry Ransdell, like I said, everybody put a lot on Jerry Krause.

At the end of the day, I would keep telling everybody, Jerry Ransdell's name was on that check, not Jerry Krause. Maybe his first two names, his first name is the same, not the last name. Well, and also Pippen's agents, when they roll over, they make this long extension. And within a couple of years, all of a sudden, that salary isn't like one of the 100 biggest salaries.

You know, it's all this stuff that adds up. But I still thought, he's still one of my favorite players from that whole generation. It's not a good play. I'm bummed that he's like in a bad place about this. Like, I really like the guy, you know? And it just kind of sucks. So you think they'd talk again or no? No. No. Oh, this is a wrap. No, I think like the guy, you know, and I just kind of sucks. So you think they talk again or no? No, no.

This is a wrap. No, I think it's over. Oh, man. Yeah, I think it's over. Yeah, it was, you know, it wasn't great from the get go. You know, so it probably was 60, nine down to five. So Jordan, his go to guys guys you're still one of them and then

who else George uh Amar Rashad um Dwight you know

I mean as you get older your circle gets smaller and you just try to you know do what you do you know going on a lot of

a lot more couple trips now and you know he's just like say fishing playing golf got his own golf course dude. You know, going on a lot more compass trips now. And, you know, he just likes to say fishing, playing golf, got his own golf course. Hey, he like to play golf.

He like to fish. He like to smoke cigars. So, you get older, there's so much you can do. Go to, you know, a good dinner. Go out.

You know, he like to eat good food. So, he like to go out and eat good food. When you're watching that series again and the nicks parts are happening because you don't go backwards you don't really think about this stuff

what do you think it is you're re-watching that stuff oh which one the bulls yeah the bulls nicks like when they're doing the 92 93 sections i mean my you know mike talk a lot of trash, but my thing, I always tell him, he tell me I'm born at the wrong time. I said, you born the right time because the commission liked you. The commission made everything. He see that you's going to be, I mean, like, you take a rock of science and see the, hey, changing rules for you. We did this and that. I mean, just, we could never get a call down the stretch. And they got all the calls down the stretch. So I just tell them like,

hey, it wasn't like y'all just blow it out every night. It went down to the last two minutes of the game. We just all executed like we did. We didn't have a guy like you a lot of times he can hit big winning shots all the time. And, you know, Patrick, you know, he wanted the ball, but he didn't make the shots. Did you ever get an answer for why Rolando Blackman didn't play in the 94 finals?

Because that was another weird thing from that era. I was talking, I talked about that the other day. I think it was Pat Riley had rules and his wife came on a trip and he found out. That's what I think. He wasn't playing because he was trying to teach him a lesson. But he was a veteran, though. I mean,

but that's one thing about Pat Riley. He holds grudges a little, too. And he's more of a control guy. He's real controlling. So... Where do you stand with Riley these days?

I mean, I don't have no beef with him. I mean, we got one inch in the locker room, you know, but it wasn't, you know, it was in the locker room. I mean, we got one, one inch in the locker room, you know, but it wasn't, you know,

it was in the locker room. I mean, he's, it was his opinion, my opinion. And I, and I said, you know,

I said, I'm a grown man. You, I mean, I can take what you're telling me all the time. Why can't you take what I'm saying? You one time. Yeah.

So no, it's no beef. Uh, it's just like when LeBron was going, where he was going to go to next year. And I told him that he was going to come to Miami. He said, oh yeah. I said, yeah.

So I go to Miami. He gave me tickets to the game. You know, but I called him. They was like, yeah, good. Oh, that's okay. Do you remember when LeBron was about to leave Miami? They lost in the finals. And Riley gave that press conference

before LeBron had decided. And he basically called out LeBron without calling him out. And he's like, this stuff's hard. You don't win every year. It's hard to be a great team that sustains it, stuff like that. And I actually think it backfired

and it made LeBron want to leave even more. But I always thought that was an interesting Riley moment when he's kind of challenging LeBron to be like, hey, man, if you want to be on a great team, this is hard. You don't win every year. LeBron left anyway. Well, Pat, he do go at you in a way that when he talks to you, and if you're sensitive it can hit

you know and touch you in a different way LeBron probably feel like hey man I came out I won the championship I mean

because he's real controlling so maybe they had some some flick and some other issues you know like controlling

around the team or this and that LeBron probably said I'm out of here I can go back to Cleveland. I can be the front guy. Call the shots. He came back and won the Cleveland

championship. I always thought LeBron just looked at it as I want to win titles. Wade's breaking down. We only have me, Wade, and Bosh. We don't have enough salary cap to get anybody else. The league's getting better. And I could go to Cleveland and get Kyrie,

that number one pick. I have Thompson, Waders. I have salary cap space. And I have a better chance to win there. I never believed any of the other stuff. I think it was a business decision by him. He was a better GM than Pat Riley was a president. But if you look at L.A. team,

and you can think about the bars, Wave, and LeBron, it's the same way with A.D., Westbrook, and LeBron. So you're saying LeBron might leave in another year because they're not going. That team, they got them. I mean, I hate to say it, but I never doubted LeBron, but if they can come back and win, it'd be a miracle because it's just nothing going.

You're a veteran team. You got four Hall of Famers, and you win every other night in a league that ain't really a great league. Yeah. Well, that's how I feel about Brady right now. I think he's in a similar place with LeBron. I think Brady knows he can't win another Super Bowl in Tampa, right? You don't think so? I don't. I think the way the cap, you know, last year was their best chance, right? They had all the weapons. He comes in. They're just, they're loaded. This year, they have some injuries. They were able to convince some guys to come back for one year. Now those guys are going to leave. The cap is they're going to start to pay a price.

Everyone else in the league is getting better. And I think he's either going to retire or go to San Francisco. Cause I think there's a chance if San Francisco doesn't win the title, I could see him going there for a year because he's from there. But I think he sees stuff the same way as LeBron. Like he's titles only now. LeBron's not interested in, you know, going 44 and 38 and losing in round one. Like, he's about titles. Well, I think that... That Tampa...

They was in... You go down 24 points, I mean, just for them to come back and tie it out, that was amazing. But my thing is, if they wouldn't have been down 24 points, I mean, just for them to come back and tie it out, that was amazing. But my thing is, if they wouldn't have been down 24 points, I think Tampa would have won

that game. I mean, the Rams started getting, you know. Well, the Rams are dying to give it away. Right.

Like, here's the ball, keep taking it. Yeah, started playing safe and that's one thing like about Belichick. If they up 30,

he want to win by 40. Don't play into the other team hand, you know, three and out, three and out. Then they get momentum. So I think Brady would have gotten the ball in overtime. If he went to overtime, they would have won.

So, I mean, he's right there. So it's a call, a play, you know, the interception right before halftime didn't hurt him, but he didn't have a good half. He had a bad first half. He's old he's gonna be 45 next year like

at some point the team has to lift him like they did last year that's that's why I could see him going to like

the Niners where it's like this team's really good they're built to win my thing on the weekend was Aaron Rodgers just completely sold

it was a sellout he was a sellout there He was a sellout. There's no way. You at home, you can't score but 10 points. I mean, I know that it just... You and Rodgers. You probably had 21 points at the worst. You know?

And like I said, 49ers played... They played bad. They played bad with 10 to 13. Like, no way that Aaron Rodgers would be in a closed game later and lose. I think that was the only time in the playoffs he's ever scored

less than 20 points. Now when he had 10, it was bad. Because he, he been talking all year. Last training camp season, he got a talk show every Tuesday.

So he been running his mouth. He didn't back it up. Well, also, he made, from the get-go, made it, from last April, made everybody think, like, this team's not good enough for me, which is a bad way to start the season. The team was really good.

It's a great team. What do you want? I mean, ain't too many teams out there better than that team. I mean... If Oak was tight end on that team, I think Oak would have had a conversation with Rodgers at some point you probably would have pulled them aside I'm guessing in training camp yeah he was

I mean like when you talk like that you gotta back it up you know you won the league last year the management you know you break it why are you worried about who they break in they break in a quarterback on potential and you and Rodgers just won MVP, and you worry about that. I don't like that.

Well, we should have got another position, this and that, but Rodgers, this guy barely can play. He might not be ready to play next year. You worry about him. That's real petty to me. For a guy at his level, worried about a quarterback they bring in. You want to leave anyway,

so what difference do it make? Right. Well, he's definitely going to leave now, that's for sure. You think, oh, that he's going nowhere. I don't.

I think he's going to, I think he's going to go to Denver or Las Vegas. I think they're going to trade him because one of the things is everyone in Wisconsin is tired of him

because that's the other thing. Yeah, all those people, you know that because you're from Ohio. He cried too much. Yeah. He went, last week, he won that because you're from Ohio. He cried too much. Yeah. Last week, he won 13 games, 13-3, and you can't advance? You and Rodgers?

You got to look at yourself. You can't do that in the Midwest. I think they're out. I think Wisconsin's ready to move on. Plus, they have Giannis, who's like the best ambassador. He wants to be there. He's winning titles. He's coming through for them.

So your book that's coming out February 1st, anybody going to be pissed off? Anybody going to be angry? No. They probably hope I don't write another one. But it ain't... It's, you know, lay back on the beach, you know, relax.

But it's a good book. Easy reading, good book. If you engage with me, it's just like a book. Easy reading, good book. Just basically, if you engage with me, it's just like a conversation back to the person that I'm talking about. There's nothing I want to talk

because it's all true. Right. So, so what was your process? You just, you got together with Frank and you just start telling stories and he's writing everything down

and it turns into a book. We talked about, I mean, I talked about how I wanted to soften the book and from my grandparents up to like growing up in Cleveland, go through college and NBA and some things I went through with other guys off the court, on the court, and we got it done. February 1st comes out.

I never, I didn't tell you this the last time you were on. I told you the story about how my son's middle name is Oakley, right? Did I tell you that? No. All right. So here's the story about how my son's middle name is Oakley, right? Did I tell you that? No. All right. So here's the story. So my son's born. We're going to name him Ben.

My last name's Simmons, obviously. Right. And I'm looking at him. I'm like, we got to give him an O for a middle name. Then his initials would be B-O-S, like Boston. You know, like the Boston abbreviation. So you got to find the O. So I go on a website.

I'm looking at all the O's I'm looking at like Oliver, Oscar, Omar there weren't that many and then I see Oakley and I'm like Oakley Benjamin Oakley Simmons Oakley Oakley toughest NBA player of the 90s like this kid will be tough we put Oakley in the name. I talked my wife into it who's like, she just gave him birth. She barely knows where she is. I'm like, what about Oakley? She's like, uh. He's Oakley. Guess what? Tough kid. I feel like the middle name

has helped him. He's kind of a badass. That's good, though. Some kids, you didn't know how he's paying out, but that's good, though. He's got you didn't know how he was paying out, but that's good, though. He got some tough kids. He's strong.

He's thick, thick like you, just a strong, tough kid. I feel like you're living on out here in L.A. in the eighth grade sports. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's right there. It made sense right away. I was like, Oakley, yeah. What could go wrong with Oakley?

Oakley was a tough dude. So it all worked out. All right. What's the name of your book? The Last Enforcer. That's true. I think you are the last enforcer. Who else?

Yeah. Who else? I guess you, Donnas Haslam, maybe. But you're a better person. He's a good guy. He worked hard. You know, at least he'll get

into the guys. He'll still get into the guys' face. Yeah. He'll put him in the game and he'll get him in somebody's face and he'll go sit back down.

But Riley kept him around for the last five years. That's good. I'm glad he took care of this guy. All right. So he lives on a little bit. I look forward

to reading the book. It was great to see you. How's the cooking going? Any new dishes? Well, I was just on chopping up on Fox little bit. I look forward to reading the book. It was great to see you. How's the cooking going? Any new dishes? Well, I was just chopping up on Fox Soul, chopping up with Oakley, a lot of new dishes. It's going to be a cookbook, then another book.

So I'm going to try to sneak the cookbook in between this and my next book. A cookbook? How many recipes? Probably going to be 30. Not a real big one. 30. A cookbook with a conversation with the chapel. All right. I look forward to it.

I'm glad you finally did this. Good to see you again. Thank you. Good to see you too. All right. Thanks to Big Waz. Thanks to Charles Oakley. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing.

Thanks to Dylan Berkey and Steve Cerruti as always. I'll be back on this feed on Thursday with Million Dollar Picks and a whole lot more. See you then. On the wayside