The Bill Simmons Podcast - Enes Kanter and Johnny Bananas

Episode Date: July 17, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Boston Celtics center Enes Kanter to talk about the upcoming 2020 Celtics postseason, the Westbrook-Durant era in Oklahoma City, and his time on the Knicks and Trail Blazers (3:10) Later, Kanter opens up about fighting for freedom, democracy, and human rights in Turkey (49:55). Then Johnny Bananas joins the show fresh off establishing his legacy as 'The Challenge' GOAT after winning 'The Challenge: Madness.' They discuss this past season, conspiracy theories, the best season of all time, and ideas for the future of the show (1:08:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the BS Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you by ZipRecruiter. If you're an employer, you know how challenging it can be to hire, but right now you face even more challenges. Mattson Resources could relate. They needed to hire a seasoned senior Citrix administrator to provide IT support, so they turned to our presenting sponsor, ZipRecruiter. That's how they found Peter Alcantar Jr. He was laid off during COVID-19, needed to find another job quickly, so he posted his resume on ZipRecruiter.

They identified him as a great match for the role at Mattson Resources. Hired him in less than three weeks. See how ZipRecruiter can help you hire. Try it now for free at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. We're also brought to you by the new HBO documentary, Showbiz Kids, which premiered on Tuesday, got awesome reviews. I'm one of the executive producers of it.

It is directed by Alex Winter, and you can find it right now on HBO On Demand, HBO Go, HBO Max. Yeah. Go watch it if you haven't already. It's really good. We're really proud of it. The Ringer Podcast Network, a couple new podcasts that we launched this week that will officially be launching next week, but you can subscribe now. One is called The Connect with Jason Concepcion and Shea Serrano. That is a movie podcast with a unique twist that they will tell you about when you listen to that first one, and the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. So you heard this on the Ringer NFL Show the last two seasons.

Danny Kelly, Danny Heifetz, Craig Horlbeck, who's producing this podcast, actually. The three of them, we're spinning them off. They have their own podcast. You can subscribe right now. It's excellent. They go deep dive on all kinds of fantasy stuff, a lot of fun things.

I really enjoyed listening to it last year and we're going to step it up in a couple different ways. So you can listen to that next week when it launches, you can subscribe now. And we have a couple more announcements coming with the podcast network over the next seven, eight days. So stay tuned for those. Coming up, we're going to talk to Enes Kanter from the Boston Celtics about a whole bunch of stuff. He's had a really interesting career and his own experiences with social justice and everything that's happened to him in Turkey. Just fascinating, especially the last 20 minutes of that interview.

And then I remember he came on after his sixth title. It was right at the start of the ringer. And now he's coming back because he just won again. Johnny Bananas, the greatest challenge star of all time on MTV's The Challenge. He won again. He won another season. We're going to come and talk about that and about how to fix the challenge going forward. I have a couple ideas. I've been known to have some ideas from time to time.

That's all coming up. First, our friends in the bubble. Mr. Cantor. Yep. Go to my Celtics. It's good to see you. It's good to see your face. I'm happy. Basketball's back.

I'm good, but I appreciate all the support. I mean, for following you. So, thanks for all the love for to say Celtics definitely means a lot. Well, I sat, my son and I sat, um, we got last minute, we got, uh, seats right next to the Celtics bench for Celtics Clippers game. And he was sitting next to the players and you gave him like five high fives during the game and were super nice to him. So he loves you now. Yeah. He's like that guy. That guy was really nice to me. Tell him I said hi. That's good.

How did you stay in shape during the pandemic? What were you doing? During the pandemic, it was Ramadan. So I fasted most of the time. So I didn't get that much weight. But like, to me to me the problem was like we couldn't really go anywhere to just you know practice or work out so like literally i was trying to i was i was at home trying to do the best i could the best i can to stay in shape i was lifting suitcases full of clothes you know you were lifting suitcases this This is a thing that happened. Oh my God. Cause like, I didn't have any weights in my house. Right. And I was like, I got to stay in shape. And we had this like zoom,

zoom meetings with the, our strength coach. And like he was telling us like what would end stuff. I'm like, I got no weight. So I like, I got to start using like suitcases. I was with squats with it, the curls with it and stuff. Did you have a hoop at your house or did you have to, you didn't even have that? So I actually went to Chicago. My manager had a hoop at his house. So like I started working out there.

Yeah. And it was a blessing, trust me. It was like I was dying to just go out there and play basketball again. So it seems like as this comes back and everybody goes back into the bubble, it's gone one of two ways. Either some people are like hesitant, but they know from a financial standpoint, from a standpoint of the collective bargaining agreement,

they kind of have to go along with this. And then there's another side that's like, I just love basketball. I'm so happy I'm back here. Which side are you on? I mean, let me tell you something. Not just me, but like, we had a conversation with the whole Celtics, you know?

We knew about like the financial stuff, all that stuff. But like we just said, we just want to go out there and play basketball, man. Because we miss just being around each other. We miss like, you know, having fun at practice. We miss just, you know, just having fun with each other we miss it like you know having fun at practice we miss just you know uh just having fun with each other i think it's just for me it was just just the fun part you know i'm just playing basketball so it just especially like you when you lose it you understand how important it is just being around with my teammates play basketball

track talk them into practice like that's that's what I miss the most. Yeah, I was talking to JJ Redick about it this week, and he was saying how, you know, all you guys have been playing basketball since you were, like, four years old, five years old, six years old, whatever, and it's been, like, a constant. And to just have that taken away for three months, three and a half months is just disorienting.

There's never been a time in your life, probably, where you didn't play basketball for three weeks unless you were hurt. I mean, now you appreciate more. Whenever you're out there, you're like, man, I couldn't play basketball for like, what, three months now. But like, whenever you practice, whenever you work out, whenever you do individual work or lift,

you're like, you appreciate the work more. Right. You guys really liked each other this year, which was a lot different than last year. You were not on last year's team. What have you heard about last year compared to this year? Or have you not heard anything?

It's just everybody's happy this year. First of all, I mean, this year we are just all basketball players. We know how to go out there and play basketball. The important thing is, man, for us to just build that chemistry because for us it was so important. The better friends we become, the better teammates we are going to be.

So we know that from day one, Coach Brett said, hey, the important thing is just becoming good friends, always have each other's back no matter what. On the court, we're right or we're wrong. Have each other's back no matter what you know on the court we're right or we're wrong have each other's back yeah um i i mean i heard like even like when i visited the mayor of boston or when i visited the governor they all say the same thing wow this year it's way different than way different last year steve i'm like what happened last year that just even like the governor and mayor, then everybody talks about it.

But I think our focus right now is just this year, what we can do, what can we bring to the table and how can we help each other? Yeah, I think last year's team, it was interesting because the team had overachieved for a few years there with Stevens. And there was that

really memorable Isaiah Thomas team in 2017 when he was like a borderline MVP candidate. I think he finished like fifth or sixth in the voting. And it was just like the little team that could. It was all these mismatched pieces. They love playing with each other and they were able to get to the conference finals. And then in 2018, Kyrie goes down, same thing. They overachieved, they band together. And then last year was so jarring. And then coming back this year, so much fun to watch. And, you know, I mean, obviously when you have a pandemic that trumps everything that's happening,

but I really missed watching the team, you know, and you think like, yeah, it's not in the top 10 worst things in the pandemic, but at the same time, I was like, man, I really grown attached to watching these guys. And I just feel this void that I don't get to watch games. So it's nice to have you guys back. Yeah, man. So like, especially like you said, like, especially beginning of this year, we had one goal to prove the haters wrong, you know, because like, man, like there were so many folks out there. It was like, man, like there was so many talks out there. It was like, hey,

they lost two of their best players. They're not going to be the same. They might finish it like maybe seventh or eighth. We came to it together. Actually, we had a conversation with the team. It was like, hey,

let's just go out there. Avoid all the distraction. Haters are going to hate. You can do nothing about it. And just go out there and just show the whole world that they're wrong about us. I think we did an amazing job, man. I think our job is not done,

but I think so far I feel like we did an amazing job. Well, it's interesting. The Celts are not being mentioned as people start to wrap their heads around, all right, who's going to win the title? It looks like basketball is coming back, and everybody's just like Bucks, Lakers, Clippers. This Celtics team played really well against the Lakers and Clippers. And if anything, if you're going to make the case

like who is going to be maybe a surprise entry in the finals or whatever, you would point to those games, especially the two Clippers games and both Laker games, and you would point to the young legs thing, because you guys are going to be playing a ton of basketball in a short period of time. Wouldn't that advantage younger teams like the Celtics? For sure, man. I mean, I would just say this

first. I mean, when Lakers came to Boston and beat them by 32, and when we went there, you know, they barely, like, two points or four points or something like that. Well, I will say the refs were wearing the Lakers jerseys. They were not a lot of calls for the Celtics in the fourth quarter of that game. But yeah, they won.

But I felt like that was a tight game. Yeah, but I feel like, man, I feel like we can beat every team on every floor. I'm not worried about anything else but just us. Like you said, a lot of people like you said saying the buzz the lakers the clippers man we're just focusing on us because i believe we have enough talent in that locker room to beat anybody uh we just need to stay together i mean obviously we had we had a very young team but i think you know with believing in kemba walkba Walker and Gordon Hayward, man, I think it's going to take a throw to the next level. And there was a couple of hiccups during the season that for like people like me that watch all the games, you know, the season ebbs and flows,

guys get little injuries, whatever. Hayward got hurt right when he was playing incredible. And he was arguably the best, he was playing the best out of anyone on the team. And you could really see the full potential of the three wings together. And then he hurt his hand and it never a hundred percent came back. There were flashes of it, but not like before he got hurt. So I'm hoping with him, we'll see, we'll see that consistency that we saw before he hurt his hand. And then Kemba started to have the knee issues.

What's the deal with him now? How does he look in these practices? He looks good, man. He looks good. He looks leaner. He looks in really good shape. But right now, we need him in the long run. It's going to be a long eight games.

After the eight games, it's going to be a long playoff run. And we're going to need him in every position. So I feel like people, I mean, I see a lot of Celtics fans are just coming for the body, but they need to relax the body. That's in his nature. He just wants to go out there and start hooping. He's Kemba Walker.

He's an all-star, you know? I'm not really worried about them. But what amazes me so much is even when he's on the sideline, he talks a lot. He always engages with his teammates. He's a leader. He's leading his team. So that's what makes me really excited.

Why do people love him so much? I think even before he came to Boston, he was one of the most beloved guys in the league, even with guys on other teams. What is it about him? I mean, I play with so many players. It's my ninth in the league. He is definitely the most humble and down-to-earth

superstar that I have seen, that I have played with. You know? It's just, the dude is just good, man. Just good to even be, you know? Obviously, you can't, I mean, I can't say enough about his game. It's just, it's crazy what he does on the court, but it's just off the court, man. He's just, it's crazy what he does on the court, but, uh, but it just off the court,

man, it's just a good dude. Uh, down third, very humble always, you know, trying to help others, trying to help the rookies out.

So like he's, I like him a lot. When Tatum had the little leap that he made, which was about six weeks before the pandemic hit and all of a sudden he's starting to look like, all right, this guy might actually be one of the 10 best players in the league. Could you show up in, when, September? Did you see that coming from September to January?

Did you feel like, oh, this guy's going to unlock something and something magical is going to happen here? I never seen any player got so much better during that four four or five months of period you know so like when he started the season i mean he was good obviously he was still like one of the best players out there but like before the pandemic i mean this did what i averaged what almost like 30 points there was no way stopping him some of the like the shots he made we turn around like each other on the bench. It's like, did he really do

that? Did he really make that? But I mean, he's getting better, man. This dude is still like 22, 21, 22, something like that. I mean, I think in a few years, he's definitely going to be top five, top six players in the league.

You played with two legendary workout guys, uh, Westbrook and Durant, two guys who put in the time 24 seven. Right. Where does he, where does his work ethic compare to those guys?

I mean, he's younger. You weren't with Durant and Westbrook. When did you show up in OKC? What? 2014, 15? Uh, 15.

Yeah. Yeah. So you, they were kind of established full veterans at that point, but where does he rank with those guys with the work ethic? He's definitely up there. I mean, obviously, Westbrook and KD was definitely his. Their work ethic was something that I never seen before.

You know, his competitiveness, even like when they played one-on-one, it was just wild, you know? But I can see the same edge and same fire in Jason Tatum's eyes. Whenever he's out there, whenever he plays one-on-one, whenever he plays five-on-five, he's going out there to destroy everybody.

I'm excited about him. I'm very lucky to have him on their side. Jalen got there a year earlier than him. And Jalen was awesome this season. And, you know, I think as the type of player every single team is looking for in every draft, every fantasy, whatever. I like that there's like a, I hesitate to call it competitiveness,

but, you know, they came in on the team at the same time. They're basically both wing guys. And I think as Tatum gets better in a weird way, that's better for Jalen too. Cause you, you like brothers trying to catch up to each other. Do you feel that this season? I mean,

they always push each other, man. I get into practice. If they're in the same team, it's, it gets ugly. They're the same thing. It's very ugly,

but if they go against each other, man, they always, they go against each other, man, they always push each other to be the best because obviously Jalen is... We know what Jalen can do and we know what Jason can do. But when they go against each other, it's like one of the most fun matchups I've ever watched

because they're just both good dudes, both good players. But you know what? They compete and they are pushing each other in the practice. And that's what makes them so good. So when you got to OKC, Durant had already won an MVP and Westbrook was already like a top seven, eight guy.

And media guys like me were saying, this can't last. One of them is going to have to eventually be the alpha dog. There's, there's at some point, this has to be one of these two guys team. Did you feel that those that when you were in OKC, did you feel like there was a little tug of war with whose team it was? Well,

like see what, when I was with OKC, we like, we never sort of in the locker room, like ask any of the players. I mean, they respect each other so much. Obviously, you know, KD and Russ, obviously, like you said, media was just always trying to say, OK, who is this team, whatever. That's what we do.

Exactly. I know, just for it. But, like, no, man. Like, we never felt that, really, in the locker room. They respected each other so much. I mean, obviously when they were going against each other, even in a practice, they were just, it was so much fun, so much trash talking, obviously.

But other than that, man, they were just competing in a high level. So we never, I mean, we never felt that. We never said, okay, this is Katie's team or this is Russ. We were saying, okay, this is Oklahoma City team or this is Rusty. We were saying, okay, this is Oklahoma City Thunder and let's go out there and play together.

When you think back now, it's been a few years, four years since that Warriors series. You're up 3-1. It seems like you have it. I went to game five in Oakland

and I actually thought you guys were going to win. I thought you were just better. I thought the Warriors were worn down from the 73 win season and all that stuff. And I actually thought you guys were going to win. I thought you were just better. I thought the words were worn down from the 73 win season, all that stuff. And Katie didn't play well. Westbrook didn't play well.

You lose, but you're hanging around in that game. And it felt like game six, this is done. This is a wrap. And you, you're up 10, you're up 11,

you're up nine, but you, you never land the knockout blow to go up. Like by 18, they hang around. Klay has an out-of-body experience. Steph makes a couple threes. All of a sudden, you lose.

What was that like during that game? It was tough, man. Every time, whenever I go to Auckland, it comes back with bad memories. I still remember that game. I hate that arena i'm glad that they changed it now but uh going to game seven i in oakland i just saw in people's eyes

there it was just everybody was just so down you know going to game seven because when we were up three one everybody was just so hyped and whatever and then when they were starting to come back and then we were good game you know five and six but like when we lost the game six man going to Auckland uh in the bus I look at people's eyes they they were everybody was just so down you know because they just couldn't believe that you know they were coming back. But when they won game seven, I think every player in the locker room was crying. Wow. Yep.

Everybody, I saw everybody. I looked around, I put my head up, I looked around, everybody was crying in the locker room. It was just tough because we knew that if we would have beat, you know, uh, Golden State, we could have beat Cleveland.

Oh, easily. That was like, man, I can't believe, you know, we blew it up. I actually,

I thought you guys were the best playoff team that year. And we did, uh, we did a rewatchables on game six for the Book of Basketball podcast. We really watched that game carefully. It's a pretty fluky game. I think it's a game where clay has to be that unbelievable

and that great for you guys to lose because you guys played pretty well. You actually played well in that game. But, and then the last five minutes, the pressure of it and the fact that every time you think you have them on the ropes, Clay makes a shot or Steph makes a shot. And then I really think the last four minutes,

like you guys just got rattled. The crowd gets nervous. And I've been in arenas where that happens, where sometimes that's worse when it happens at home because you can feel it, right? You can feel it in the air it's like oh shit what's happening and that's just one of those games it's a great fork in the road game because i do you think kd leaves if you guys win the title if you were to win that title that year i don't think katie would leave i don't think he would have either yeah i mean i don't think he would have either. Yeah, I mean, I don't think he would have left because, I mean, obviously,

people of North KC give him everything. The fans, the organization, coaching staff, the players, they love him so much. He was just part of our family,

you know? So I feel like if he would have won, I don't think he would have left. I think he would have at least signed like a one-on-one deal and come back to like defend it and if you guys lost, then he leaves, something like that.

That was the plan. I mean, after they actually, we lost, we were like, Hey, we know what can we, we can take the law, so let's just come back again next year and try to win it all. When did you realize he was leaving? I heard him. I mean, he obviously didn't tell anybody. Um, he told us, uh, no, he didn't say we, he obviously didn't tell anybody. He told us.

No, he didn't say. I just saw it on Twitter. Oh, really? So you didn't even see any signs? No, no signs. Nothing. We just saw it on Twitter. And then, like everybody, I was shocked.

I'm like, wow. Like, why? Do you think he is he the best forward other than LeBron that's been in the league since you joined the league? I think so. Yeah, I think so. I mean, he is the best scorer for sure. Where would you put him against Kawhi? That's a tough question.

Because that would be the battle for the number two spot, right? Yeah. Yeah. Kawhi is a two-way player. KD's a better scorer. I'll take Kawhi over my thing, but KD's a way better scorer.

Interesting. Did you see the whole Westbrook when KD leaves and everybody's like, okay, so he's done, that's it. Did you see what was going to happen with Westbrook? I mean, he basically became the star of a superhero movie for a year and turns into the walking triple-double, all that stuff. Could you have guessed that?

I mean, he gave everything he had, man. I mean, so this guy was hurt still trying to go out there and play basketball. I mean, we wanted to prove basketball. We wanted to prove something. We wanted to show something. We still got it. We still can do it. This guy just gave everything he had. This guy averaged a triple-double

two, three years in a row. Not so many players can do that ever. He tried to give everything he had. I know so many times he was hurt. So many times he had hurt so many times. You know, he had a lot of pain, but he still went out there with his teammates and tried to battle. The thing that was strange to watch from afar,

because usually when guys are doing that and they're like the one-man show to that degree, there's usually with the teammates, the teammates, you can just kind of see it sometimes. Like, all right, this sucks. I'm going to get four shots today, or I'm not going to get the teammates, you can just kind of see it sometimes like, all right, this sucks. I'm going to get four shots today, or I'm not going to get the ball, or I'm basically just setting picks for this guy. But it seemed like you guys were all really pulling for him. And I thought that dynamic was really strange that all of you guys were really invested in his success in a way

that I thought for the NBA was a little bit unusual. I mean, no, we were just, I mean, he was making history, man. And we were just, I mean, for his team, we were just so happy to be part of the history, you know? Obviously he won an MVP that year and he averaged triple, double and everything. When he actually broke the Oscars, Robert, 42, triple, double, you should have seen the locker room and everybody was just celebrating

it and it's like we won a championship because it's like when he does something it's like it's all of us you know we all try to help them to get there you know and he knows that and we were just so happy for him and he was just so happy to be made

history with us. All right. It's been three years. You can admit it. How many rebounds did you kind of let him have over the course of the 82 games? Was it like one a game? You just kind of let him have it? I'll tell you.

I promise you, man. No. People think that I let the big... You and Adams. It was like you and Adams are just letting him have the rebounds. I promise, though, that that's what people think. But no, I was literally going out,

but this dude got another layer. The jump order, he was just going out and getting rebounds. I mean, it's just... That's what people think, that me and Steven Adams just let him get all the rebounds. I mean, that year,

I averaged seven-something rebounds. And Steven Adams just got all the rebounds. I mean, that year I averaged like seven-something rebounds. And Steven Adams averaged the same. So that wasn't him, man. He was just going out there and just getting all the rebounds. Who do you think, so you came in the league, the 2011 draft, right? Mm-hmm. Who's the best athlete? I'm not talking basketball player.

I'm saying best athlete of that decade that you've been in basketball games with. Cause is it? Cause Westbrook would be one of the candidates. LeBron would be in there. I'll probably, I'll probably that too. I'll probably put that too on the top. Katie and I'm not suffocating.

Sorry. Russ and LeBron. As top two. That's top two. And like, the thing is like the, the thing is like, with Russ, it's like,

I don't know how, because like, whenever we go to a, we go to a, like a hotel, OKC's rules are very strict. We all, we have to eat always organic, right?

Yeah. This dude was, Russ was, he ordered his unorganic food because he was saying like, organic food doesn't taste like anything. Yeah. Or like, when he was in Ross was, he ordered his unorganic food because he was saying like organic food doesn't taste like anything. Yeah. Or like when he,

when he was in a plane, he was eating chips, gummy bears, drinking snaffles. I'm like, how do you eat like this and just perform like, it's like,

it's wild. Yeah. They used to say Iverson was like that too. There's certain guys who are just like genetically they're on, on some other plane

where they, it doesn't matter what they eat doesn't matter if they sleep yeah so like sabonis was a rookie that year someone sabonis was rookie that year and then his one of his rookie duties was bringing synapol in the plane for us every road trip right so sabonis one time brought him a diet synapol and r Russ was going crazy. He was like, what are you doing? I don't want diet snapple. And Sabonis was sitting next to him and he was like, he's an athlete.

I thought he didn't want to take a normal snapple. Did you see what was coming with Sabonis? Because he's like one of the 25 best players in the league now. I'll be honest with you, no. Because when he was going against me and Steven Adams, 25 best players in the league now? I'll be honest with you, no. Because like, when he was going against

me and Steven Adams, right, one-on-one, it was his first year. I mean, me and Steven Adams was just, you know,

just was going at him hard every time. Like, we were not taking any, but what made me like so surprised about him,

he never gave up. Never gave up. Obviously, me and him, me and Steven Adams was beating the league for five, six, seven years at that time. But we were trying to bully him every time. But he was just trying to stand against us. I'm like, wow, this dude has got the fire in him. But when he got traded to Indiana I talked to him that night, I'm like dude listen

I was there before I got traded but the important thing is man now just have fun with it that's your city now you and Vic just go out there and have fun and man the process that he has made

is just so unbelievable man he's having fun, he's making himself better he's making everybody else better around him so I'm happy for him well it's interesting to watch a big with the way basketball is played now where it's just basically like alright everybody's staying around the three point

line and shoot threes and he's doing a whole bunch of stuff right, He's posting up. He's trying to draw double teams, finding people, stuff like that. That's kind of become a lost art. You're the ultimate example of that. You're the kind of guy that in 1985

that was the era you should have played in. You're in the wrong era. I know. You go back and watch the 1999 playoffs and you would have loved it. You're in the wrong era. You go back and watch the 1999 playoffs and you would have loved it. You would have been playing 40 minutes a game. I've been impressed by how he's able to flip

that. Did you see the Oladipo thing coming? Oladipo? I knew. Obviously, when he was in Orlando, he was a really good player. When he came to us, he actually got hurt a little bit. And then he came back. I mean, he was always a skilled player, but I didn't know he was going to be an all-star.

Right. But when he went to Indiana, man, he just, I was like, okay, I'm going to put the whole Indiana on my back. This is my city now. I'm just going to just carry the whole team. So, I mean, and he did it. What happened with you and Adams when you guys finally separated? Oh man, it was. You guys were like a buddy cop movie. It was one of my favorite combos in the league. It was really

fun to watch you guys play together. And there was a lot of comedy that came out of it too. It was sad. Well, one thing about me and Stevenven adams obviously we we played the same position but there were there were never jealousy you know we always try to push each other to get better uh we know we knew our role we know what what what can we do on the court well like what matters man important they're just off the court building those friendships relationship with your teammates because the basketball gonna end like what 14, 15

total year if you play but the important thing is the bridges you made when you were playing basketball so Steven Adams man he was one of my

best friends in the league still is I'm still talking to him I remember the last year Portland OKC series, we literally

texted every after practice. It was like, next time I see him, I'll punch you in the stomach. And next time we got to do so. We were trash talking to each other after the games, during the games, but he's a good man, man. He's very, he's real. Is it possible for him to feel pain or no? Can he feel pain? Does he have pain sensors in his body? I feel like he could play with like a broken leg. He could play like 30 minutes. I think I would just say this, man. He is the most strongest man in the whole league.

Yeah. There's so many debates out there. Okay, who is, whatever. I see one player that's stronger than him was Pekovic. And Pekovic retired. I've already gone in the league now. I think I'm 16 now. But when me and him was playing one-on-one, you could hear the bones

cracking. This dude is just in a different level, man. Is he your number one choice if you're about to be in a bar fight and you needed one NBA player with you? I'm taking Marcus Smart. Wow! What a win for the Celtics!

I'm taking Smarty. Yeah, I will say this is the thing Jalen Rose and I used to always talk about the difference between NBA tough and actual tough and sometimes when things go down on the court and people act NBA tough and then there's other guys who are like,

I'm actually ready to fight. If you guys want to do this, I'm here right now. Marcus is one of those guys. He's not afraid of literally anything. When you lose it, you literally lose it. Trust me. And like in NBA, there's not many like real fights. Like maybe once or twice happens

because they know if you throw a punch, it's a $50,000 punch. Right, right, right. You're not throwing a punch. Or like they know that the ref's going to come and just spread them out. So there's not really

like real fights out there. But off the court, man, I'm definitely thinking Smarty. He will go to war with you and he wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't complain about it. So Marcus Smart and Steven Adams

start eyeballing each other on the court. We should all run for our lives. Exactly. So you go to Portland and you get to play with Dame. How would you compare him from a superstar

way he carries himself, work ethic, all that stuff to KD, Russ, and some of the other great guys you've played with? Oh, man. I feel like, you know, I picked Portland, Trailblazers. So after, I mean, I was done with the Knicks. Gladly, I was done with the Knicks.

I had two choices. It was either Lakers or Portland. Because of Dame and because of my new CJ I wanted to pick Portland because you see when you see Dame you understand why the whole Portland is

and when you have a leader like that he only cares about his teammates he only cares about going out there and winning and competing and stuff and competing and stuff. And, like, we saw that in the last year of playoffs, man. I mean, that threw CJ and Bam. It was, like, unstoppable.

And you, I thought you were one of the big winners of that playoffs, too, because you were, like, legit hurt. And what was that one game? It was, what was it, four overtimes? Oh, my God. So, the reason I got hurt because of Steven Adams so like yeah, yes to that is we're going to get against each other in a playoffs and I separated my shoulder and After that we play repeat that series and went against, you know Never and obviously yo, K. is not an easy guard to guard. But that full overtime game, man, I was like,

I never seen anything like that before. I think it was one of the toughest games I ever played. Well, you, Nurkic was out, right? Mm-hmm. And then it was basically you and Zach Collins, who was like 12 years old. He had just gotten in the league. And you got to handle Jokic, and you're playing with one arm. And it was a pretty memorable game.

I remember watching that. Anytime it gets past the second overtime, I just root for both teams to tie every overtime because I want to be like, I want to see this first seven overtime game. I'm sure you're not feeling the same way, though, playing. No, no, man. Please get this end? Just going one shoulder

against Jokic and Jokic, I mean, I saw his picture now. He lost a lot of weight, but back then he was a heavy dude. Very heavy. And he plays like, he plays dirty. I don't know if you guys like, ever like seen him like doing some dirty stuff, but he plays very dirty. Like what? Like little

tiny elbows that people don't see? It's like elbows and you know, just like some dirty stuff but he played very dirty so like little tiny elbows that people don't see what is like elbows and you know just like some weird like weird stuff whatever like elbows or pulls and i don't know like some different stuff but like going against him four over ten was tough but it was just it was just amazing man i think he's like the most skilled big man in the whole league you know yeah i was gonna ask you who who was the skilled big man in the whole league. You know? Yeah, I was going to ask you, who is the best big man just from trying to guard people? Who is the toughest one you've had this decade?

Is it him? So, Anthony Davis counts as a big man. He's a five man. If you count him, then him. But if you say like a five-five man, like a real five, I'm going between like the Joel or Jokic, but you know what?

I'll pick Jokic. The reason is the passing. You cannot set him no double teams or you're just dead. That's what makes him really special, just the passing part. Yeah, he is that, and Joel just has the,

you're praying that he's not in 100% good shape. Exactly. That's true. The year that he decides he's going in 100% good shape. Exactly. That's true. The year that he decides he's going to be in superhuman shape, it's going to be a problem. But he hasn't totally unlocked that yet. It's going to happen at some point in the next three, four years. I mean, he's working on it, man.

He's a good dude. He's working on it. Who's your favorite guy in the league that you haven't played with that you just really respect and you're like oh man it would have been fun to play with that dude play with or play against a guy that you haven't played with yet cause you know

you're this fun loving guy but you also are a competitive guy so there's other you know there's this weird fun loving competitive group is there anybody you're like oh man I would have loved to have played with that dude? I respect Giannis a lot. I respect James Harden a lot.

And Kawhi. Probably that three is definitely, that I'm like, wow, it would be very different, very special to play with guys. I mean, obviously you can't see enough about Giannis' game, also James Harden's. Actually, I played with James Harden at New York and like some of the runs,

some of the runs that we had. And he was just unbelievable. Yeah, he's like a video game. It's like, people always talk about how he scores. He can like pass the ball like crazy.

You know, his vision is unbelievable. Probably, yeah, that three. We left Giannis out of the greatest athletes of the decade list. That was probably amazing. Exactly. We forget about him, yep. Well, because he's actually an alien, so sometimes you forget.

We were only talking about human beings. What was your one big takeaway of your Knicks experience, your brief Knicks experience? I'm trying to think you a good one. That might have been the takeaway. Is that five seconds of silence? Listen, man. Before Fizzo gets there,

before the year, before they move all the pieces, when KP was healthy, I'll say, we had a really good run, man. It was me, Tim Hardaway, Jared Jack, and Porzingis, and Courtney Lee and stuff. We had a pretty good run.

I mean, after we lost, before we lost JP, we were like in a, almost in a playoff race. But then we lost KP. Then everything started to change, you know? And he was playing really well when he got hurt. He was like at 27 and 10 every night, basically.

Every night. I mean, the thing he does, I mean, that's why they call him Unico. He can pretty much do everything, you know? Like you see like a 7'3 dude, just put the ball on the floor and dribbles like a point guard and shoots like a forward and plays like a big man. That's a weird combination, you know. But after we lost him, man, things just started to get bad and bad. You know, it was just, it was not the same.

Yeah, it was. this happens sometimes with the NBA over the years where you have a young guy who's really emerging as a star and a potential superstar and they get injured at the worst possible time and it felt like that happened there where it was like that was literally the worst time he could have gotten hurt right as he was making

the leap you know the next year that we had was just was just bad were we there a year and a half? year and a half the next year that we had was just, was just bad. Right. Were you there? Were we there a year and a half? Year and a half. So like,

half year, you probably blacked it out. The year was good. The first year was good, but the half year, man, it was just tough. Um,

they were sitting players, uh, they were sitting in the They were sitting the starters. And it was just really bad. I remember one time Coach Fitts called me in his room. I got nervous. I'm like, man, you know, just it's like going to a principal's office, you know, just what is he going to say? I went to his room. He's like, look, this is what happens when you're a good player playing on a bad team.

From now on, we're going to sit you down. I'm like, what? Because that hurts. Because that hurts. The reason it hurts is like, you worked so hard

the whole summer to get ready for the season. And you give everything you had, right? And just because of things are not going the way they want it,

they're just sitting the good players and trying to, I don't know. And you know what, what they're trying to do. And it just hurts, you know? And then you have the,

and then you have the fans going, this is the right thing to do. Exactly. I mean, we need to lose. I just don't know. Like, because like,

listen, man, my job is to go out there and win every game and compete. That's what I'm getting paid for. If someone has told me to do opposite, I'm not going to do it. I don't care who you are, but I'm not going to go out there and do anything else but play. For me, it was just weird, man. It got to perfect.

Yeah, that sucks. It's so funny where you've actually played, where you're in New York, which is the greatest basketball city for everything, but you had the worst experience you could have had for what it could have been. You're in Boston, which is just a top five basketball city with the best tradition, great front office organization.

And then you're in OKC Portland and Utah, which are all, we only have one professional team. Yeah, one major sport. And it's like, and they're all crazy about the team because there's no other team. It's like 365

days. Out of those three, who was the single basketball craziest? Probably, I will just say OKC. Definitely OKC. Wow, over Portland.

What a loss for Portland. You know, Portland was amazing too, man. Like Portland trucks be like, I was actually debating in my head

which one is like, which one is like, you know, the craziest fans. I mean, they both have the craziest fans, but probably like, I will say

definitely OKC is like i will say that from the okay scene is like something else because of like the the because of like the people don't notice but like the first day whoever if you're in a if you're a coach if you're or a uh player the sam the gm is taking you to oklah Museum because of the Obama bombing. So he was saying, every time you go out there, think about what's this city, what the state been through. So go out there and play for this, you know, play for those fans. So like whenever we out there, we're just like giving everything we had. And then no matter what, we up 20, down 20, they always have each other's back.

And it was one of the amazing experiences I had. We talked a little bit earlier about your game in the 70s, 80s, and 90s versus where the league is now. How much do you think about that? First of all,

I should have mentioned this earlier, but my dad, who has been a season ticket holder since 1974. One of his favorite things are guys, low post guys who get offensive rebounds. So he's always loved that. And the Celtics, you don't know this because you're not a lifelong Celtics fan. They haven't had a lot of those guys. Like we had Ed Pinckney in the early nineties and he was this,

just a great offensive rebounder. So my dad, so when we got you, my dad was like, this is my guy. I love guys like this. And yet there's certain games where the matchup is like, we, we can't play canter. Like that team's too small. Yeah. Yeah. Rockets. I think, but then there's other games where it's like, we should be playing him more.

Like, he actually could be destroying these guys. And Stevens has to figure out games. I think you're the hardest guy on the team for him to figure out when to kind of unleash you versus when is the wrong game. Do you feel that going in?

Where you're like, fuck, we're playing the Rockets tonight. I'm probably not going to play that much. We already have this good conversation with Coach Brett. I mean you're like, fuck, we're playing the Rockets tonight. I'm probably not going to play that much. We already have this good conversation with Coach Brett. I mean, because our goal is to just go out and win, right? Win that game.

So going through the game, I know what my role is. I'm not in the league for almost 10 years now. But going through the game, I know what I can do, what I cannot do. Obviously, when you play with through the game, I know what I can do, what I cannot do. You know, obviously,

when you play with the Rockets, I mean, it's just like a crazy matchup. You know, you cannot put me or you cannot put any of the bigs on what, who, Russ or James Harden. Or, you know, they play a different kind of basketball. But like you said, man, the basketball era changed a lot.

Now it's just, you don't really see a back to basket players anymore it's all about you know picking pop shooting threes and stuff like i said again when i whenever i watched a clip of like the 80s and 90s i'm like man like you said i played in a long wrong era you know i wish i played in the back in the day with those guys but um i mean mean, you're just going to know your role. You know, it's just like when a game comes, like Lakers, it's all about the big men. You know, you got like David. It's good for you.

You got Dwight. Yeah, you got Joel McGee. So, like, I know that game is my game. But when you go against like the Rockets, you're like, okay, you know, they're going to keep like trying to play ISO games and shoot threes and stuff. I know that night is not my night. So, like, I respect Brad a lot, man. you know they're gonna keep like trying to play iso games and shoot threes and stuff i know

uh that night is not my night so like i respect brad a lot man i know his basketball like he's very high so well that's his team whatever he wants that you know we have to be okay with it i think one of the reasons i like the Celtics team potentially to do some damage is because of the lineup flexibility and where they can go small, they can go medium, they can go big depending on the opponent. The Clippers, those games are really interesting because if they're playing Zubats, then you're in. You can go and you can actually score on him, get him into foul trouble, stuff like that. When they're playing Harrell, now they can do pick and roll with Harold and Lou Williams or whoever.

And they're just trying to constantly get you so that all of a sudden you're guarding Lou Williams or you're guarding Paul George. But on the other end, you could post up Harold. So then if you're Stevens, you're like, all right, well on the one end,

Cantor, Cantor can post up. He's going to get boards. Like this is a great matchup for us on the defensive end. And they're just going to attack him every time. It's like, what do I do? It's fascinating to watch just as a fan because it's like a chess match.

It is like a chess match. Like I said, we trust Coach Brad. Also, we have Grant Williams and Daniel Price. These dudes can guard three, four, fives. They can guard three, four, fives. you know, like they can go three, four, five. So like we have everything.

We have a really deep bench. We can literally throw in anybody like Grant, if they can go on small Houston Rockets or even Daniel Tice, or if they go on big, they can throw me or maybe even Taco in a couple of years. But like we have so many different, you know, pieces that can go with

anything did you expect that taco was going to be the most popular celtic whatever i watched him in a summer league i was like this dude is going to be a not a superstar mega star because like like a rock star yeah like this His personality, man, is just so amazing, man. Like, very humble, down-to-earth dude, loves to work, goes hard. People don't know about him, but he trash talks a lot. Really? For a rookie, man, God, like, whenever we play one-on-one and stuff, he trash talks.

I was getting all the pics and selfies. He does trash talk a lot. But, like, he's a good dude, man. Good dude to be around. Every team needs a guy like that. I got to say, he's way more coordinated and kind of nimble than you would expect.

He's not just some big stiff that's running around putting his hands up. He's actually pretty coordinated. He is actually pretty athletic for a 7'6 dude. Yeah. Like how he runs. Yep.

Because they've had other tall guys who come in, but they can, you know, they're like mummified. They can barely like walk. Quick break to tell you about two new Ringer podcasts that you can subscribe to right now on any place that you listen to your podcasts, including Spotify, my favorite app for podcasts.

One is called the connect. It's a movie podcast with Jace Concepcion and Chase Serrano. You've heard them on a bunch of ringer podcasts and many times on the rewatchables. This is a movie podcast with a unique twist. So you can subscribe to that. Now it launches next week and the ringer fantasy football show, Danny Kelly,

Danny Heifetz, Craig Horlbeck. Craig Horlbeck. Horlbeck. Craig Horlbeck. He's producing this podcast today. Why do I have a mental block with Craig's last name? Craig Horlbeck. Yeah, I did it.

Well, the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. You can find it basically wherever you listen to your podcast, but we're proceeding as if the football season is happening. Until they tell us it's not happening, we're going to think it's happening. And guess what? Part of that is fantasy football. So we're doing it.

We have new podcasts. Go listen to it for advice, for tips, fake drafts, you name it. It's all going to be there. Check both of those out. The Connect and The Ringer Fantasy Football Show, wherever you get your podcasts, hopefully Spotify. Back to this one with Enes Kanter.

You were pretty early this decade on the whole social justice thing. And this has been a big theme of everybody going back in the bubble and what this regular season playoffs is going to be. It's the dominant theme that we have in this country and in the league right now. Have, what is your experiences with this stuff told you for what's about to happen?

Uh, well, about all the social justice issues, man, I know what is it like to fight for freedom and justice. And I mean, you know, the situation between me and turkey but uh when my teammates and everybody was just just fighting for the one cows and it's justice i was like you know what i want to be part of this because this is not about black and white this This is about everyone against racism.

So that was one of the biggest reasons that I drove actually 20 hours to Chicago, to Boston, just because I wanted to peacefully protest with my city. And I actually wore my jersey to that because I wanted people to know that Celtics and NBA got your back. And this time period showed us so much that we have so many great leaders like LeBron James, Jalen Brown,

especially Jalen Brown, man, I can't say. When he's done with his career, he's not going to be only known as just a basketball player. The work he does off the court is just unbelievable. What is the situation with you in turkey right now i mean we finally i mean my dad finally has his freedom after seven years going in and out of jail and court at turkish courts but like the pressure like i'm telling to my teammates here too like the pressure you put on a government authoritarian government especially is it works

uh we've been fighting against you know the turkish government especially is it works uh we've been we've been fighting against you know the turkish government for seven years now but like the support i got from my teammates from my coaches nba fans nba families and you know all the like the media outlets and reporters gave me so much hope and strength to fight against a dictatorship in turkey but for me it was was amazing, man, because like when your teammate like Russ or like Baymore, CJ or KB or although like, you know, like now it's like him by Jason or Jalen were like supporting you, it just automatically gives you so much strength to fight against authoritarian regimes.

So like, I can't say I I can't thank you enough about all my NBA family. I know it's a tough thing to talk about, but, you know, you come to America to play in the NBA, but you're from Turkey. That's your place. Right. You're representing them. You have, obviously,

an incredible connection with the country. And then over the course of the decade, as you're here, the country is saying, this guy doesn't count to us anymore. He's out. We're out on him. What was that like? I mean, how much pain was that for you personally as you're trying to balance being a basketball

player? When I got drafted, before my name, they said from Turkey, right? And that made me very proud and happy and now like my own country literally calls me a terrorist and whenever they say i actually answer them back that's the only thing i terrorize the basketball ground and we just laugh with my teammates because they know what kind of person i am what kind of personality i have uh always you, just try to help others and stuff. But what hurts me the most is other Turkish players in the league. We have Arsani Ilyasova. We have Jadiy Osman in Cleveland.

We have Furkan Korkmaz in Philly. Whenever we go against them, they don't say a word. I actually try to talk to them. I'm like, Hey dude, like what's up? How you doing? No answer.

Because like when I try to actually like, because like they might like be scared of like a, you know, Turkish government that if they see a picture or video of us talking of something, then they might be in trouble, whatever. So like I actually cover my mouth with a jersey and just try to talk to him they turn

their face other way you know that was a position these are guys these are guys you've known your whole life right i know especially ursan i play with him in the same team with okc i play with a national team jedi and furkan play with my brother and national team. So I know him from long time. I actually like, whenever they get hurt, I message him on Instagram and say, hey, get well, brother.

But no answer. But like, that's the thing that hurts me the most because like, they're just scared. They don't know any better. But whenever I sit down and have a conversation,

try to have a conversation with him in a game, no answer. That's probably what hurts me the most. That sucks. Do you fear for your own safety? I mean, I'm in touch with the FBI a lot

here. I have always had a conversation with them and stuff. When I was playing for Portland, my friends told me it's not safe to stay in a house because there were so many death threats. So they told me to stay in a hotel. So when I was in a road game, actually, FBI came to my hotel room in Portland. They set up this thing called a panic button. It was right next to my bag. They said, whenever you feel uncomfortable, whenever you, you know, just feel threatened or something, just push that button.

We'll be there in 20 minutes. In America, no, because like there are rules and laws. I don't think they can do some kind of operation in America. But other countries for sure. Yeah, because they actually put my name on interval. I read notice system so like I basically count as an international criminal you can't leave America then I cannot leave America I'm actually becoming American citizen next

year in June congrats I know I'm so excited about it but uh so when I become American since I can live actually this year in Christmas game, we have to go to Toronto and Canada for a Christmas game. But we had to get in touch with the Justin Trudeau's office. We had to get in touch

with some of the lawmakers there. And it just gave me so much, it made me very happy that they said just, hey, tell him to not worry about it. He could come in the country, play his game peacefully and leave.

There was no problem. You know, when you were talking about your relationship with the other Turkish players, we did when I was at ESPN, I was one of the people that did 30 for 30. We did a documentary called Once Brothers, which was one of my favorite ones that

we did about Vlade Divac and Drazen Petrovic who were on the same team and grew up in Yugoslavia and then Yugoslavia split and they stopped speaking to each other and then Drazen tragically died in a car accident but Vlade they were like super close

and it got to the point much like you described where they're on a basketball court not acknowledging each other and it was the whatever was going on in their home country had completely overpowered any sort of relationship they could have here. But then draws and dies, and Vlade had a hard time dealing with it. And that was what we made the documentary about. But it's such a unique circumstance.

And it's really only happened a couple times in the league. I respect him a lot, man. I mean, obviously, in the end, because in the end, those players, those three players I just counted, represented Turkey, you know? So, like, when we play against them, I actually pray for them.

I'm like, you know, I hope we win the game, but I hope they play good. Because, like, in the end, they're representing their family, they're representing their country, their flag, their people. So like, I got a lot of respect for a man, but like what they doing, I don't blame him because I understand like they are scared, whatever, but, uh, when, when this things are all just settled down and when this regime changed, I am

sure that they will change their mind. Have you noticed any disturbing similarities between America right now and Turkey? It's, it's, I feel like it's very sad, but I feel like get it there. Because like in America, you turn on the news, there's so much negative news out there. You know, people attacking each other. This side is attacking this each other this side is attacking this side this side is attacking the other side but like we should have one goal like people forgetting that the goal should be like how can we make this country better together it's not a

fight against republicans or democrats it's a fight like how can we make you get through this together because we have one enemy to be right now. It's the coronavirus, right? When you turn on the news, this side is attacking that side, this side is attacking the other side. I mean, sure, people can do wrong stuff or whatever. People, you're not going to like anything that people do. But like, I feel like we need to just like forget about all that BS and just like focus on, you know know just how can we get through this

together what about uh hey dude turkulu oh man so the thing is uh that's a that's a big another story so if you don't trick all the men he was actually one of the biggest reasons that i stopped playing basketball i would imagine he was like the first Turkish hero. He was like a Jordan. He was like a Turkish Jordan. And that's what actually they call him. But I played with him in the same team in Turkish national team, 2011. I came into the league.

He helped me so much. Then these things have started. He picked the present side. Now he literally goes to every media app in Turkey and try to trash my name. And that just broke my heart because, I mean, he was one of my idols.

He was one of my heroes. And I still respect him as a basketball player. But then the president, Turkish president, gave him a job. He's now the head of the national team um he just has so much benefits from the government side and it just now he's like he count me as his enemy you know it just it just saddened me because what he did on the court it was just unbelievable he represented his country he one year he was the most improved player the year he was against

Kobe Bryant and the Lakers was unbelievable him and Dwight with Orlando. 09 Magic yeah. So I respect him so much man but like now because all that stuff now he's still trying to go to every media and try to you know trash my name What's the case against you in Turkey?

What do they say? What are they saying when they're trying to trash you? Here's the thing against you in Turkey? What do they say? What are they saying when they're trying to trash you? Here's the thing. So like in America, you like things or you don't like things. You can talk about it. You like the president or you hate the president. You can, there's a freedom of speech. You can say about it. You can talk about it, right? You can criticize the government. You can criticize the criticize the president in turkey that's not the case uh in turkey if you criticize the government if you criticize the president you're a bad guy i mean you look at my all my all my interviews you look at my all my op-eds only thing i want in my country is freedom democracy and human rights but just because i want those things people say oh he's against this country. Turkey is the number one country

in the world that put most journalists in jail, more than China. And right now, there are 17,000 innocent women are in jail right now just because of their political views. And there are so many reports out there, Amnesty International, Human Rights, Human Rights Foundation. These there are so many reports out there, Amnesty International,

Human Rights, Human Rights Foundation. These women are getting raped and tortured. So like, of course I'm going to talk about these issues. And just because of this coronavirus, right? Turkish government decided to free all the serial killers,

child rapists, you know, just human traffickers, mafia leaders, but they decided to keep all the political prisoners and journalists in a jail. I mean, come on now. If the virus spreads in a jail, there will be lots of death,

which is already spread in the Turkish jails. Right. I mean, just because I talk about these issues, obviously affected me and my family. And my dad was a genetic professor. He got fired from his job. My sister went to medical school for six years. about these issues obviously affected me and my family and my dad was a genetic professor he got fired from his job my sister went to medical school for six years she cannot find no job my little brother actually he's in america now was playing basketball he literally got kicked out

every team so my family had to put a statement out there and said we are disowning ennis and turkish government didn't believe that they sent police to my house in Turkey, and they raided the whole house. And they took every electronics away, phones, computers, laptops, because they wanted to see if I'm still in contact with my family or not. And if they were to see any text message or email or missed call, they will be all in jail. So last time I saw my family was 2015. And last time I talked to my family was, I can't even remember. It was a long time ago. Wow.

Five years? Five years. Last time I was in Turkey was 2015. And you have no way to communicate them at all? They can't even do it? Like you must be able to do it through third parties, right? So like, it's a big risk because they listen to everything. I just don't want to take that risk. My dad is finally has this freedom i just don't want to you know just mess up everything right

right right my brother my what my other brother plays basketball in spain uh madalona um i mean he sent me pictures of my mom and dad sometimes uh but but you can see like when you don't seem to when you're like man my mom is getting old my dad is gaining weight and stuff so like the toughest part is like after the games right uh everybody goes to the court and take pictures with their family and talk to their mom and hug their dad and stuff so i only have this one picture of my mom and just i just look at it and say okay let's keep going because like this is the question i get a lot from my teammates are you crazy because like they're like listen dude like you're an nba player just keep your mouth shut make your millions and just live a happy life

why are you talking about these issues but people don't understand my dad is only one my family is only one family and you guys know my story because I played in the NBA but there are thousands of stories out there and their situation is way worse than mine just because of their political views you know so I'm like you know what I know it's a lot on me and my family but I have to

do this for innocent people man I mean you think like some of the stars we have now are in a similar position that I think they've embraced where it's like, I have to say stuff now. I have to stand for things. This is, we are in a moment in time. I have to do something, which is, you know, how you felt with your own country for a long time so yeah it's important man because like whenever we talk about these issues of course it's going to take a lot on you too like you're never going to get big contract you're never going to get big endorsement deals um obviously uh like my actually my uh my agency you probably know mark abolished one of the biggest agency in america i'm like told them like how come i don't have a shoe deal?

They actually said, we're literally talking to every company. Recently, we just talked to Nike. They said they love you. They want to give you a contract, but they're scared because they know that for one player, they don't want to go against the whole country. They don't want to lose the whole country

because they know what Turkey will do to all the Nike stores in Turkey if Nike gives me a contract. So like, whatever. Jesus. Well,

at least you, at least life is back to normal right now with hoops and you have some, you have eight regular season games and a couple of

playoff rounds and the best thing you can do is make the finals and everybody can see your face in finals games. Basketball is my only escape only escape man because like whenever I'm out there on the court with my teammates man I forget about everything I just go out there have fun with them and stuff

and the other crazy part is so whichever team I play for they don't show those games in Turkey they censor those games and like yeah oh it was last year, they actually made it publicly. It's actually on internet. You can look at it. They made it publicly and said like, even in this major playoffs, we are not going to show

any of these games. So yes, last year we made the conference finals against Golden State. No game. They did not show one game. And people like started

to get mad at me. I'm like, what did I do? I'm just going to play basketball. So, but this year, no Celtics gameians in turkey they have to go to some kind of vpn code to put some like weird codes to watch those games i don't like that at all especially because i'm i'm hoping you guys are playing uh well look it's been awesome that it's been awesome to have you on my favorite team i've always enjoyed your game and. And it's been a really fun team to watch.

And I look forward to seeing what everybody does on and off the court over the next three, four months. But thanks for all the time. And thanks for all the honesty, too. I really appreciate it. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. All right.

Stay safe. All right. We're bringing in Johnny Bananas in one second. For all our sakes, we need to avoid crowds in any way we can right now. But if you need to go to the post office, what if you need postage to send out letters and packages? Don't worry. Stamps.com.

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microphone at the top of the homepage, type in BS, stamps.com, enter BS. Stay safe, my friends. All right, without further ado, Johnny Bananas. All right, my next guest came on after he won his sixth title on the challenge, and we compared it to Michael Jordan, who had also won six titles. Only he had something up his sleeve. A seventh title, which happened this week on the challenge. They said it couldn't happen. They said he was cursed after he backstabbed Sarah. Not really. I defended you. I did not think it was a backstab. I thought it was in the spirit of the game. Agreed. You finally did it. People said you were too old. People said you hung on

too long. No, you won. I mean, Bill, I was one of those people. I'm not saying that I had completely counted myself out, but to sit here before you right now to say that I had, you know, the faith that it was going to happen for sure. I didn't. And, you know, at first I wanted to just prove to everybody that curses don't in fact exist. I thought I was just a victim of my own success, which is what I think I've actually told you on this year's show before. Yeah, because everyone's gunning for you. Everyone's gunning. And that was just kind of what I had to deal with.

And that's what I had to adapt to. And, you know, I figured, listen, I'll just keep throwing crap against the wall and it's going to stick one of these seasons. And it just wasn't. And instead of actually doing better every season, it was almost working in the opposite direction. And after the last two seasons, World of Worlds 1, World of Worlds 2, early exits on both. Some of my earliest exits since early on in the challenge,

I mean, I actually started doubting whether it was going to happen. And if in fact, the curses were real. And, you know, it took this season, it took living in a bunker underground in the Czech Republic for eight weeks and a mountain high up in the Austrian Alps to prove to me and everybody else that curses are made to be broken. It was one of my least favorite seasons about halfway through. I didn't like the bunker. I thought it was dark, depressing.

Guess what I like? When you guys are in a nice house with a pool and people- You and I both, my friend. And there's bars and people in bikinis and people playing chicken. And it's like, I don't really want to be in a bunker on the show. But then I thought the last few episodes, I thought it really kicked in. And, you know, Corey, I don't know if you know this,

but Corey has some kids back home. I did not know that. Did he mention that on the show? I'm not positive he did. It's the first I've heard of that. I had no idea. Is that what Corey was playing for? Yeah, apparently he was keeping this low,

but he was playing for his kids back home. Wow. You would have never known. And his baby on the way. He kept it low. It's like an anonymous donor that donates all this money and you just never know about it. You were just playing for you.

You didn't have the seven kids at home that you were playing, you were just playing for you. You didn't have, you didn't have the seven kids at home that you were playing for. I was playing for you too, Bill. All right. I appreciate that. Okay. Cause you know what, you know what meant more, you know, what was more of a motivating factor for anything, not the seventh title, not getting put back ahead as far as money earned, not my 20th season. It was coming back on your podcast because I know the only way I was going to get back on is if I won again. You know what I mean? That's not true because, and I told you this by text, I've been watching a lot of challenge. It's replaced real sports for me because there are no real sports. And I've just, I think I've banged out maybe 12 or 13 of the last

20 seasons because Amazon has this MTV hits package. It's like seven bucks a month. You get all the old challenges. I watched them once. The challenge, one of those things, you watch them, you never think about it again. It's not like people are writing about it years later. It's not like there's record books.

So you just, you kind of vaguely remember stuff. It's incredible. I got to say, I really enjoyed it. It's fun to have on in the background. It's not. I got to say, I really enjoyed it. It's fun to have on in the background. It's not like ridiculousness that MTV plays every waking moment of every single day. I've always said it's like, why not play instead of playing 87 episodes of Ridiculous in a Day, maybe play 80 and then play seven episodes of The Challenge and give people what they want. But I thought Pluto TV was the only place to find it, but I guess that's not the case.

Uh, that's what sucked me. That's what sucked me into it was the Pluto. Cause they have a Pluto channel, but there's commercials. And eventually I was like, I'm done with that. I,

I, how, how do I not get commercials? And that led me to the Amazon thing. But the reason I bring this up, they go all the way back to like, Oh six. I got,

I got the DVDs, man. You could have asked, I could have sent you over the originals. Well, there's some's some early bananas in there including the ruins which is in the argument for greatest season where you have this it's just a chin it's like a chin thing and a soul patch but no mustache what was going on that year i don't know man i don't know listen i i'm so glad not just with the mistakes that i made as far as like the way I behaved, but the fashion faux pas that I made back in the day with the fedora hat and the bandana.

That was back in the day when I thought it was cool to like go to the gym and just put as many heavy plates on bench as you possibly could and eat cheeseburgers after because all I cared about was what the scale said. Then I saw myself on TV and I looked like a hippopotamus. Listen, I'm glad I made all of my mistakes before the advent of social media and back when I was in my early 20s because Lord knows I might not be sitting here today if that wasn't the case, but I will have to agree. I thought the ruins was an excellent season. Definitely a very highly underrated season. It was action packed, but you know, that's when you weren't, you weren't the, the guy yet. No, you were one of the guys. There was a lot of guys who could win every year. And as, as the years pass around 13, 14, when you'd won a couple

times, 2013, 14, that's when people were like, we got to get this guy out. And then you became the guy at the poker table that everybody's just going all in on trying to challenge you over and over again, try to get you the fuck out of the game. I became the Patriots, man. I became the team that gets everyone's best shot every week. And that's what most people don't factor in. And I think the Rivals 3, I think it was after Rivals 3 when I won my sixth title. Yeah. So I got the notoriety from getting my sixth win, but then the amount of notoriety that I got for taking the money from Sarah, I just think that

that put me into a whole new dimension where people did not want to see me win, whether it was in the literal sense or in the figurative sense anymore. Sounds like the Pats. Exactly. And I, and it's like they say, the higher on the ladder you get, the bigger the target on your ass gets. And I think that that just made me, you know, it was, I became public enemy number one every season. I mean, we did world of worlds one.

I didn't know 50% of the people in the house day two, Wes already had them all convinced that I needed to be gone. And, and, and that's kind of the way it went. And that's what I've been dealing with for the past few seasons, man. And as much as I want to, you know, sit here and trying to give credence to the fact that there may be this curse that existed. Again, I just think it was, I was taking everyone's best shot every week. And then putting my differences aside, putting that rivalry and all that bullshit aside with Wes this season, I think went a long way to kind of neutralizing other enemies

that I may had had in the house. And it allowed me to kind of fall back into my old game and be kind of a little more cunning, a little more manipulative. And I was able to kind of sit back and strike when the time wasn't right, not just lash out at everyone because they were lashing out at me. Yeah, but you still got thrown into some challenges. I did. Even on the final episode, you had this random challenge that came out of nowhere.

And if they pick the six foot five dude, Fessy, you're done because you would have just been able to touch that bell without even thinking. Yeah. And Rogan did the volunteer thing, which I always think is lame. It's like, when, I'll volunteer. When you kind of know you're going in, you pretend you're being like magnanimous. It's like, you're going in, dude. Yeah, it's happening, whether you want to or not.

Yeah, I'm glad. But you lucked out with that, though. I'm glad things, listen, I say this about every season, okay? It's better to be lucky than good. And I could go into a season with the absolute best strategy possible, the strongest alliance on planet earth, but without a few elements of luck. Um, and it happens every season. Things don't turn out the way they did this season. For example, I mean, by Wes nominating

himself to go in against me, I mean, that completely changed the whole dynamic of, of my game, which I would never have factored in. Um, the final challenge where we were in the, in the race car and we had to knock the pins down like bowling pins, how by the grace of God, more of mine fell down than everybody else's. And then in the final, not just that elimination, but the math equation, Bill, I am terrible. I am God awful person at math. We had to do, it was a nine stage math equation that you got, you got a different part of the equation, like every 10 feet that you went. And I had to solve this in a blizzard with my ski pole in the snow. Okay. I wouldn't be able to do this math problem

right in front of me right now in my bedroom with a piece of paper and a pen. And the fact that I was able to do that math equation under the amount of pressure that I was. And that ended up being the deciding factor in that final. Had I not solved it faster than Corey and Kyle might, might've been a different outcome. And that's what keeps me up at night, man, is that, is that math equation and me somehow figuring out the, the, the, the, uh, the equation to it. But, um, I don't know, man, I think that there was a lot of things that happened this season that are unexplainable. Um, and I really do think that, um, this was my, it was, it was meant to be, man,'t know, man. I think that there was a lot of things that happened this season that are unexplainable. And I really do think that it was meant to be, man. They say those fairy tale seasons. I think this was like my fairy tale. Well, the challenge is like the NFL, where you just want to be in position to win, but you still need luck and you need a couple good things to happen. Absolutely. I was watching, this is pathetic that I'm just name dropping past

challenge seasons, but Battle of the Seasons, which was a great season. You weren't on that one. Wasn't there. Yeah. But San Diego was in the one where they have everybody's in the tight glass case and you have to try to basically run through each other and touch the bell. Yep.

And Zach's about to lose. That dude CJ figured out go low every time. Yep. Yep. Low man wins. Zach smartly realizes I'll just hurdle him. And he hurdles him like Edwin Moses. Yep. Hurdles him over, hits the bell. So then the next time CJ has to come up, he blows him away. But then those guys end up winning the challenge. And it all is because that hurdle worked. And it's like football where it's like, all right, there's, there's that one third and 14, that one, you know, that one punt return you get and that flips it very rarely does the dominant

like Jenny was dominant. You knew Jenny was going to win the whole season. There was no question she was winning, but with the men, like any of the four I think could have won. Yeah, no. And that's the thing is, I think a lot of people don't give enough credit to the finalists that were there because there's not a tried and true old school vet fan favorite like a Jordan or like a CT or like, you know, a West that was there. The guys that were there, I mean, Corey's made three finals, I think, in the seasons that he's been in there. He's no slouch.

He came into this season in better shape than he's ever been. Corey's like the Houston Texans, though. He's in the playoffs, but it's like, you know, he's not. You know, it's not. There's not going to be no Super Bowl for Corey. Buddy, he had, I forgot what it was, but there was something motivating him this season to perform as well as he did.

He mentioned it a few times. I forgot what it was. Do you think maybe he had kids like he was playing for? I don't know. That might have been it. That might have been it. I'm not sure,

but I remember him saying that there was something that he was playing for. I can't put my finger on exactly what it was. So I think he had extra motivation this season. Kyle, as much shit

as people want to talk on Kyle for not being all that intelligent and kind of, you know, snaking his way through challenges, the guy has no quit in him. I've seen Kyle do things and come out of nowhere, whether it's carrying crates on his back. He ran up. This is a funny story. I don't even know if this is going to make the show. Kyle's diabetic. All right. First season he did was vendettas. We had to run up the rock of Gibraltar. He didn't, he thought that if he told production that he was diabetic and told him

about his syringes, that they wouldn't, they'd kick him off the show. He ran up the rock of Gibraltar with a syringe. It was capped up his ass. He keistered a syringe and ran up the entire rock of Gibraltar and beat half the guys. Wow.

Stood up in a, in, in the bunk, in the cave, in the rock of Gibraltar for eight hours and ran up the hill the rest in the Rockets' ball for eight hours and ran up the hill the rest of the way. I mean, this guy has a motor in him that most people don't give him credit for. And then there's Fessy, man.

I mean, Fessy, incredibly strong guy, dude. I mean, for his size to have the amount of stamina, the guy's a collegiate football player. I mean, for his size, the guy has an incredible motor on him too. And then Rogan just won last season. So, I mean, there were no slashes. I thought Fessy, so I watched this the last two seasons, I watched with my daughter who was really into it.

She says hi, by the way. We both thought Fessy was a prohibitive favorite. Yeah. But then how it turns out where you have the final challenge and it basically played to none of his strengths. None. But then how it turns out where you have the final challenge and it, it basically played to none of his strengths. None. It was like endurance. He doesn't get to use strength at all. He doesn't get, you know, the, the elimination challenges. So many of those are going to go his way. Anything where he gets to bulldoze somebody in a lot of ways, he's like a bigger CT. Yeah.

Like all this stuff you'd be afraid of with CT in the eliminations. He's even bigger and stronger and more. A hundred percent. Crazy. No, he's got, that guy's got a very high ceiling, which is the reason why

everyone's like, oh man, why didn't you throw Fessy in the hall brawl when you won in the end? I'm like, because the guy was coming back 100%.

And this is not someone that I need in future seasons coming after me if I'm going to go back on my word. But. You know, that's funny.

My daughter asked me that and I was like, Bananas is too smart. He knows that guy's winning. He doesn't want that guy mad at him. He's doing the Bill Russell. It's like when Bill Russell was always friends with Will Chamberlain, he would take him out to dinner. He always wanted Will Chamberlain to like him. So Will Chamberlain was never mad. You have to look, listen, man, the biggest mistake a lot of people make on the challenge is they don't consider what you do now will affect your game in the future one way or another. Sometimes it doesn't really matter. But with a guy like him who I knew after his rookie season had performed as well as he did, I watched him do everything that a guy his size shouldn't be able to do.

I knew that by sending him in, if I did, would it be a great TV moment? Absolutely. He would have absolutely murdered Rogan in that hallway. But I'm like, this is a guy who's going to be back in future seasons. And if I get in good with him, if I do something for him now, he's going to owe me in the future. Well, if PTI

had a show the day after this, if they led with the challenge today, they would have done the whole first segment would have been about you. And then the segment, first second segment would have been about you. And then the segment, first second segment would have been Wilbon saying to Cornizer, I mean, Fessy, what happened to this guy?

This guy was a beast. He completely choked on the mountain. Does Fessy have it? Like, what happened to that dude? Altitude, man. And this is something that a lot of people, Fessy's never been, Fessy, he said the highest he's been is like Florida, which is sea level. So it's like Fessy, you haven't been, I've spent a lot of time throughout my life in

the mountains. All right. I grew up skiing, snowboarding. I dated a professional snowboarder. So I spent a lot of time in Tahoe and you know, that whole circuit. If you've never been at altitude, if you've never felt what it feels like to, to climb a mountain, walk up a flight of stairs, go to the bathroom at 10,000 feet.

It's, it's, it's like your body's not functioning properly. You're like, why can't I catch my breath? Right. And if you've been there, if you've done that before,

you kind of almost know how to like deal with it and not panic. Um, but a guy, his size, it's the same reason that CT, one of the reasons that he died in a battle of the X's to him and DM on that glacier in Iceland, same thing. Um, you could be, you could be the longest distance runner on, you know, at sea level.

But as soon as you get up to altitude, I think that was the great equalizer of this challenge. Like, like the bunker, this is what I've been saying is our biggest competition, as much as you, you obviously hated the bunker. The bunker was our biggest competition this season. Okay. It was everyone in that house against the bunker. Cause that was the biggest competition for entertainment. Yeah. No, yeah. Well it's tough. Listen, cause you guys are all miserable. It's like, how is this fun? Everyone in the bunker hates being in the bunker.

Exactly man. It's, it's like, it's like, how are we going to be entertaining when we all are clinically depressed? And there's a big siren going off every morning. That sounds like some catastrophes happening. They didn't show most of it. I mean, we are breathing in artificial air pumped in through some oxygen system from the Cold War era. All the light that we had was artificial. You had to walk five minutes to go to the porta pot if you need to use it.

Cause all the plumbing inside the, the, the bunker took a, took a crap. When we go on the bus, the whole thing was like, let's, let's prevent them from getting vitamin D. We'd be on the bus going to the challenge. All the windows were blacked out on the bus. The bars we went to were all underground at night. So it was like, we were like vampires, dude. We'd come out every once in a while, like in the bus. The bars we went to were all underground at night. So it was like, we were like vampires, dude. We'd come out every once in a while, like in the daylight. And it was like,

you almost felt like your skin was going to burn off. So while the bunker was obviously the challenge, you know, the biggest challenge of the season, the mountain and the altitude, I think, was the great equalizer and the hardest part of the final. I mean, it wasn't the longest final. There's been way longer ones. I think this one beginning to end was 12 miles, but 12 miles in knee-deep snow at 10,000 feet is no joke. Do you think the seventh title will finally make people forget that you thought the Australian house language was Dutch?

No. Or do you think that's still going to be on your gravestone? No, I'll never live that one down. I'll never, what's funny is to be on your, on your, on your gravestone? No, I'll never live that one down. I'll never, it's what's funny is, uh, one of my closest friends on the challenge, her name's Sky. She's from Australia. Uh, and she was there when I gave that answer and, um, she has never let me live it down, man. Yeah.

That's definitely one of my low lights that and the, uh, the backpack in a cutthroat, which I'm probably, you were probably gonna bring up at some point. So I want to get it out there ahead of time. Yeah, but that's... It was a punch. CT is the greatest elimination guy of all time, and he was at the peak of his powers. To me, that's like you were on an island against Randy Moss in 2007.

You're getting torched. Yeah, absolutely. There's no way around it. That's what I'm saying. It's like it would be like Floyd Mayweather getting in the ring against Mike Tyson. It's like, what do you think the outcome is going to be? Well, then you had fat Tyler after you, who was like carrying 20 pounds extra.

He was CT had to drag him to the belt too. But Tyler, all Tyler was doing was eating for two weeks before that thing. He ran out of his meds. All right. So that's all he was doing. He said he was eating his emotions. You know what? And that's another one.

When you talk about, like I said before, luck of the draw, that was a flip of a coin. Who went against CT first was determined by the flip of a coin. So had the coin flipped the other way, he would have had to deal with, you know, lunchbox first and then me after. And the whole outcome might, might've been different, but I'm a firm believer and everything happens for a reason, man. And there's nothing in the past that, that, you know, I wouldn't necessarily want to change. Cause I

mean, here we are today. Well, listen, even though the Australian Dutch thing was bad, it still doesn't, doesn't match Brad spelling throne, T-H-R-O-N and not putting the E at the end. It's still the number one. Oh my God, challenge trivia spelling moment. And TJ gave him both options because Brad said, throw him like a baseball or throw him like a king sits on. And TJ's like, I'll take either one. Can we talk conspiracy theories? I love conspiracy theories. So there's a conspiracy theory that you and Wes hatched this whole thing.

You're going to be friends, but Wes couldn't stay the whole show and he was going to go in the challenge and get out. Not true? No. Listen, there's a few conspiracy theories going on. That's just Wes trying to somehow come to terms with the fact and make an excuse for what is arguably the most boneheaded decision in the history of challenges, especially in alliances. Okay.

Wes and I had that house. We had a stranglehold on that house and he was actually sitting prettier than I was. He, more people owed him favors and he was in a better position actually in the house than I was. The numbers that he had that, that it was basically like, he was like a dam holding back this flood against me. And I was holding a flood against, against him, but his was a lot bigger. Um, had he not sent himself into the elimination against me, he had two, three eliminations after that, that he would have had first crack at and would have been able to go in and it would have been against Corey or Fessy in a run across a barrel competition, uh, or untie a knot in a car against Josh competition. He would have won either one of those. Wes knew that when I nominated

myself to go in, which I did, I purposely threw that elimination. I told TJ that his mom was, had the most, uh, world cups. Uh, when I threw that elimination, Wes knew before I had told him before, I'm like, this is my plan. I don't want to be here anymore. I want, when I threw that elimination, Wes knew before I had told him before, I'm like, this is my plan. I don't want to be here anymore. I want, if I'm going to be here,

I need a reason to be here. I'm checked out and I want to have a purpose. I need a red skull. So therefore I'm throwing today's challenge and I'm nominating myself. Yeah. He then ended up winning that day. And I think it then became apparent to him, like,

wait a minute. So bananas is going to go in and potentially come back with a red skull and i think the the idea of me being in the house with a red skull and him not having one it's almost like the kid being jealous of the other kid that has a toy that he wants to play with so i think he just made a very ill-advised move i think pride and ego got in the way i think he was worried about what fans were going to think if he didn't nominate himself to go in against me and i'm like wes any Wes, any other season? Yeah. Baller move, dude. Do what Jordan did. Send yourself in against me in a punch a hole and climb a drywall wall. But this ain't it, man. And that's a good that's a good elimination for you to punch the wall and climb up thing.

It is. I destroyed a lot of drywall as a kid. So, yeah, it's one of your better ones. I don't know how you don't break a hand with those, but those are pretty good ones. You know, watching you and Wes team up, it almost reminded me of WWE, like wrestling, where the guys who have feuded in the past, they just start getting along. And it's like, well, this is weird.

You guys have had 70 steel cage matches against each other. Now you're friends. I couldn't totally figure out how to digest it. So this all stemmed from, this wasn't done out of desire. Okay. This was done out of necessity. Yeah.

Cause you, cause it's so many newcomers. Exactly. Basically all the old, all the OGs, you kind of have to stick together at some point. And we, and that's the thing is if,

if Wes and I have gotten to the point where I think we're both, obviously that's the thing is if, if Wes and I have gotten to the point where I think we're both, obviously we're in the twilight years on the challenge and we've both done so much and we've contributed so much to this franchise over the years that it would be nice to kind of ride off into the sunset whenever that, that takes place, given as many best shots as we can and kind of going out and, and kind of, you know, enjoying the fruits of our labor. Instead, what we were doing is we were going in and we were refusing to let old,

our old vendettas die. And by us going at each other every season, day one, all we were doing was making everyone else's lives easier. All these new kids that were coming in, the other vets, they all knew as long as Wes and bananas are here, they are 100% going to be at each other's throats. And we could just sit back and let the bullets whiz by until one or both of them is eliminated. And that's what's happened the past two seasons. War of the Worlds 1, War of the Worlds 2. We basically paved the way for people who didn't, some people who did not deserve to be in that

position were in that position. And after world of worlds too, we were in a SUV together going to the MTV movie awards. And we both looked at each other and we're like, what are we doing for two guys that consider ourselves to be the, the brightest and most strategic players. We're, this is just dumb doing the season after season. So let's try and do the opposite.

This is out of necessity. This has to be done. Cause if it doesn't, we're just screwing ourselves. And it worked better than I ever thought that it could or would. I'll never root for Wes. So it didn't totally work for me. Yeah, me neither. His own parents don't root for him, dude. Come on, Wes.

Does Wes still have 30 companies and 40 cars? What did he say that year? He's got more. He's got more now. I think he's up to 70. I think he's up to 70 companies. All cars. What did he say that year? He's got more. He's got more now. I think he's up to 70. I think he's up to 70 companies. All right. He's, you know, all a swag, you know, swaggy sees business.

I think Wes has also taken full credit for everything that swaggy is doing as well. And he's got all of his cars, but somehow he still has managed to find time to film this midlife crisis of a show he's doing now. He's quarantined in Kansas with the rest of his friends. It's like, where does this guy find the time? It's incredible. To run all those companies, do all that stuff. It's amazing.

When can we get rid of all the English people from the challenge and just get back to our Brits? You don't like the Brits, huh? No, it's fine. It's fine. We got a couple years out of them, but, but, you know, in the, in the heyday, the initial heyday of the challenge, you know, late two thousands heading into the 2010s, the real world was still the feeder system. That was our, that was our, it was, it was the triple a baseball team just sent it up.

Can't miss prospects. People who had been on TV for four or five months you think like that real world Portland season and Jordan and Hurricane Naya and they're just coming out of the AAA like five players ready to go and now it's like they're doing She's the One

what's that? She's the One? I don't even know what the name of the show is can we just go back to where we were? Is it over? Like we're never going to be able to find 28 people. We have to outsource to other countries. So, yeah. I mean, listen, until the real world comes back, man,

until they can find a way to bring the real world back and kind of recapture some of like that magic that the real world used to provide with characters and dynamic characters. Here's the biggest problem. Here's my biggest issue, and I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this, but the casting now, there's a reason why the vets, the OGs, we're cut from a different cloth, man.

The CTs, the Bradds, the Marks, the Derricks, the Kennys, the Evans, the Derells, the Corals, the Tinas, the Betts. I could go on. It's like these were the Anissas. These characters were multidimensional. They were gritty. They were all unique. They all had a couple skeletons in the closet.

Definitely lots of skeletons in the closet. I mean, most of them were just completely mentally off the reservation. But back then, dude, my season of the Real World Key West, back in the day when they were still casting, I was one of 200,000 applicants. So you can imagine the amount of steps of, you know, the steps and layers that these people had to go to and only like the most dynamic, charismatic, just multi-dimensional characters made it to the top. Yeah. Now it's almost like, okay, you're hot and you like to get drunk and hook up. Good. You're cast. We don't care if there's, if you have any sort of, of, of,

of personality, we don't care if you have any other other dimensions to you it's like if you want to go on and be a complete train wreck uh then then you're cast you know and that's the problem is and and you're seeing that with i think the quality it's very rare that you're getting those really outstanding characters yeah and that's the thing about the UK kids though, is I feel like a lot of the UK kids, they have established characters, whether you like them or not. There is no one on earth like bear.

Okay. There is nobody on earth. Like, like, you know, like a Melissa or even a Jenny, like you see these people and you're just like Rogan. I mean,

you're like, these people actually exist, Georgia. Like, I mean, they're a whole nother breed, man. Like them, love them or hate them. They are their characters, dude. You know what I mean? But it seems like the answer is to do another fresh meat season. Yeah. And really try to look, because you think like how many, how many challenge stars came out

of those two fresh meat seasons? Guess guess where fresh meat guess where fresh meat characters came from though those were the people who didn't make it to the real world those are the people who was that one yeah yeah oh everyone that made fresh meat laurel car maria uh kenny evan all of them were right they they made it to like the final round of uh of casting for the real world and they didn't't. So they basically were, were taking that pool. They'd already kind of like been vetted. And so that's where you got fresh meat from. So they'd have to kind of go back to the old school way of, of casting. And like, and, and beyond that, I just think, man, I just feel like this new generation and listen to me, I sound like such an old, old fart saying this, but I feel like this new generation of, of, of kids, the youth nowadays is just, there's just

not a whole lot there, man. There's just not a whole lot there. So you're saying there might not be a next generation of the Camillinator and Nani, but that just might not have that? Listen, I have to deal with them on a daily basis, but from you being the loyal viewer that you are, I mean, what characters do you see right now? What personalities do you see that you're like, this person has a very high ceiling? Not just when it comes to their athletic, in order to be a very well-rounded challenge competitor, which there's very few,

it's like you have to be intelligent in terms of humor. You have to be able to win and you have to be able to like strategize. And there are certain people that have one of these characteristics, but not the the other and it's very difficult to find that competitor that kind of you know covers all the bases well you also had a lot of one-of-a-kind people too going backwards like ct is a one-of-one it's not it's not like another ct's coming god broke the mold after he made that guy absolutely camilla nilla and Nani. We're never seeing them again.

Well, Nani's back. No, but I'm just saying the next version of them is not happening. They're one of ones. I think it was the free agent season it was on. I always have it on in the background, but I'm not totally watching it. And Camilla was mad

at somebody and Nani tried to break it up. And then they get mad at each other. And they have like an hour long, everybody's holding them back. And it's just going and going. It's like Ali Frazier three in Manila. Yeah. And it's just going to go. And then the next day they're just like, hey, sorry about that.

Yeah. You want to have breakfast? Yeah. There has never been two people like that ever. No, man. That's a whole lot of spicy Latina right there, dude. Of course. That is a deadly combination.

You have a mild history with both of them. So we should mention that as well. Yeah. Mild. Mild. A little dabbling. A little dabbling. Yeah.

Yeah. I was always team Nani in those. Me too. Because listen, here's the difference. Nani goes crazy because she's emotional. Camilla would go crazy because she's unstable right she would like actually almost like like the lights would just go off she wouldn't even know what was flip a switch and she went into a different dimension you know what i mean like nani would get emotional she'd cry she'd be a little drunk she'd be crazy but

not like i mean camilla when she would when she would go off and she'd have one of her things, I mean, it was like the gates of hell were opening up, dude. Like it was, it was, it was brutal. She made the unforgivable sin, which is why she'll, she can't come back. She was mean to, she was mean to Leroy, my favorite, my favorite other than you. You don't do that, man. You don't, I mean, for, for any reason. Do you not be mean for anything with Leroy? Leroy's the best. He is, dude. He really is. Has he had even one mean moment on the show? Not that I can remember. He's just too, listen, the thing about Leroy is he's such a good soul, man. He's just such a loyal, when you talk about someone, you know, I think the, the, the, the phrase real gets thrown around

way too casually. Yeah. He really is one of the realist dudes that you will ever meet. You hear a lot of people who come on the show and it's like, they want to talk about their, their background and their history. And this is why I am the way that I am. If there was anyone, you knew Leroy's history. If there was ever anyone to be able to kind of have a free pass for, you know, being a little while, for while and out, sometimes it would be him, but he is literally the most down to earth, well-adjusted. I mean, awesome guy. I mean, he, I call him on a regular basis because me and him have two different ways of kind of like dealing with people and dealing with the world. And he's just got this way of just seeing things in such just a,

a, a simple and just clear way that sometimes I get bogged down with like overthinking things and get way too much into my head. Um, and he's, he's, he's a gem dude. And,

and, and he's, and he's never won the show. Yeah. And he's never won the challenge and he's had bad luck. Well, the one year he could have won was the year when he was with Nia. Yep. And they made the

I think they even made the finals. Hurricane Nia finally was unleashed and she got kicked off the show. And they were the best team. Yeah. They would have won, I think. That was the same. That was the season when Sarah threw me in

against Leroy. backstabbed. That's what started the whole, you know, I stole the money from that. A lot of people forget that that's, everyone remembers me stealing the money from Sarah, but nobody ever remembers why I did it and why we were rivals in the first place. I'll tell you who remembers, me. Because you guys were really close and she completely stabbed you in the first place. I'll tell you who remembers. Me. Because you guys were really close and she completely stabbed you in the back. That opened the door for

Leroy and Nia to be the favorites. Nia self-destructs and then Jordan and Sarah end up winning. I did not think they were the best team that year, but it goes back to the challenge. The other one, going back to some of the older ones, and this goes back to where are the people like this now in the the challenge. You know, the other one going back to some of the older ones and this goes back to where are the people

like this now on the current challenge? Like somebody like Derek. What is he like? 150? 160? 165? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's in like these pull the rope tug of war challenges with dudes who are like 235 and it takes

them, you know know 20 minutes to finally put them away that dude was unlike anybody derrick pound for pound and i will say this i mean a lot of people like ct is the most dominant guy pound for pound in a in a physical elimination and physical competition derrick pound for pound is the best i think most scrappy most tenacious player i've ever seen he's the one you would have to actually kill to beat him you would have to they would have to give you a a a baseball bat to beat this guy down he'd still do the elimination with joss that he came in as a mercenary nonetheless derrick had no skin in the game all right he was leaving one way or another it's like he was fighting for his way into the game. He was getting paid and he was going against the guy who,

who like was trying to stay in the game for two hours. Derek got his ass beat, stepped on, kicked, punched. I mean, Joss is a big dude and he just did not give up. He just did not give up the same. If, uh, going back to a cutthroat after I was, after I was eliminated, one of the best eliminations ever. Um, it was called a riot gear or something like that, or riot. And all the guys had riot shields and Derek was on my team, but I was already gone. So it was basically him. And I think it was by himself. He took on Tyler, Brad and Dunbar. All all right with the riot shield three against one and he almost and he almost walked out of that guys i mean again like i said before they don't make

them they just do not make them like that anymore man you know he was cut from a different cloth as well and then durell is always in the finals except for ends up beating the crap out of a drunk brad you're in the room for that one. Yeah. That was also in the ruins. Yeah. But then the other one against Crazy Tony, where he throws Tony off, but then somehow his foot hit the water before. Yeah.

I think those were the only two times he lost, and both of them were complete flukes. He lost to CT in the tie a knot on the cage contest in Invasion 2. I don't remember that you remember that Oh early early Yeah they don't have that one No this was recent this was Invasion This was like I don't know this was the season After I think my rival season was Sarah I think this was right after Rivals

I don't remember that one I might have to step in with that one again Invasion of the Champions When all the new kids were there Oh yeah you're right That one against Darrell with that one again? Invasion of the Champions. When all the new kids were there, then we came in as the talent. Oh yeah, you're right. Yeah. That one against Darrell in Balls Inn. Remember, we actually talked about it on the podcast that one time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, that was essentially the same the elimination that CT beat Darrell in, which was that they had to basically make a knot on the cage and the other guy tie it. CT just basically made a huge beehive on the side of this net. They had to use like a chainsaw to cut this thing off.

But that was, he made the ill-advised mistake of trying to replicate that this season against Jay early on when it was a totally different strategy. He fell apart. Yeah. Yeah. Darrell was a great one. I would say if there's a challenge hall of fame,

I think he's in it. Absolutely. Dude. Yeah. No, Darrell's. I mean, I think he's in it. Absolutely, dude. Yeah, no, Durrell is, I mean, again. CT is like the shack where Hall of Famer won some titles,

but you feel like there could have been more. Absolutely. He was his own worst enemy in some ways. He really could have been an eight-title guy, but it just, you know, he had some baggage. Dude, and he'll say this too. His biggest mistake, one of his biggest mistakes, was on Gauntlet 3.

He sent me in to elimination, which I eventually got sent home and kept Big Easy who weighed 160 pounds and Big Easy

ended up dying in the final and costing him what would have potentially been his first final win. Yeah, that was traumatic.

Who do you think is the best female of all time? Of all time? I mean, I'd have to say there's like probably, I'd have to say top three. Uh,

I'd have to say Laurel, uh, Emily Schramm. Um, uh, would you put Jenny in there? I mean, I'd say Jenny is again,

has a very high ceiling, but it's going to be very interesting to see. We've seen Laurel when she comes in and has to deal with the entire house against her. Jenny, I told her this actually on our, I did a live with her last night after the, after the finale, I was like, Jenny, you're now going to experience like the bananas treatment when you show up to the challenge and every girl in the house is going to be against you. And she's a very like, really like sweet, like nice girl.

Like she doesn't have that like killer instinct in her. Like Laurel does like that, that intense, intimidating, terrifying, you know, nature about her. So it's going to be interesting to see how she does when everyone stacks up

against her, which is surely going to happen. I have Emily. I have Emily in that conversation too. I think pound for pound, I think she was the best. But I think Laurel had a mean edge to her that I don't

know if Emily has. No. Laura has a mean-spirited edge. That came out a few times. You want her peeing out of your tent, not into it, for sure. I mean, Emily won a title with Paula, your old Key West roommate. I mean, Emily won a title with Paula. Yeah, which is impressive. Your old Key West roommate.

Yeah. I think that got her off the schneid, right? Yeah. I think that win is what then propelled Paula to being like, all right, I'm done with reality television. It's time for me to start popping out some kids. So she's doing well, too. You know, Jacoby and I once upon a time came up

with the idea for rivals. They stole it from us unabashedly because we talked about it on a podcast and then six months later they're doing it. I have another, did they have, did they figure out the next challenge season yet? Is it in motion? Yes. Yeah. I'm not exactly sure what it is. Uh, but yeah, the next, the next season's in motion already. But do they have the gimmick yet or no? I don't know. I mean, we don't, we don't know that until we, we have our guesses. Like we try and come up with what we think it could be, but I mean, nobody really knows right now.

It's still kind of up in the air. I got to say the battle of the seasons gimmick is great. And I think they should bring that back for a second one, but do it. It doesn't necessarily have to be seasons. I think it should be four person teams that they figure out the four people have some sort of connection to each other. But just all of that, how it worked where two people could go, but the team was still alive, I thought was really smart. And then the dynamics of the four people on the team and turning on each other and be mad and somebody's not stepping up.

It was the fights within the fights within the fights. Yeah. Oh, it was really smart. But I just like the concept of a team and how it was like, you know, Austin and Brooklyn. And so I think that would be a good one for them where like you could pick your team, right? You could have you, Nani, Leroy, you could pick all your people and it could be like, these are my people.

Yeah. And then it'll be like five other teams like that. Like the challenge alliances or like besties or something like that, where you're on a team with like your besties. You got it. There it is. Yeah. The challenge besties or BFFs or whatever. But then that was the thing. It's like, maybe you're not besties. Oh, I thought we were besties. What's going on here? I think that would work. Listen, you know what else? You guys always have been on the forefront of coming up with very ingenuitive things. And I think one thing that you came up with, and a lot of people know it, a lot of people are aware of it, but they don't know. And I give you credit for it every time I do an interview or anything.

It's giving the challenge, the moniker, the fifth major American sport. Thank you. I did come up with that. You did. And before I ever met you, and I remember the first time me and you ever, ever like connected was through Twitter. And I remember you, you sent me a tweet and you're like, Hey man, if you're ever in LA, love to go out to dinner. And, and, uh, and then, and I told Derek and Derek's like, yeah, dude, he's the one that always calls the challenge, the fifth major American sport. And you have been referring to the challenge as the fifth major sport.

Since the mid 2000s. Yeah, yeah, it's true. And it's so funny because now this season, the fact that everything's been shut down as far as sports are concerned, basketball, football, baseball. Yeah. This was the first time that the challenge actually got to step up and got its notoriety or whatever for actually being able to step up and kind of fill in for the gap that people had as sports. And every interview that I did, it was so funny. Us Weekly,

E! News, every one of them was like, yeah, the challenge is the fifth major American sport. And I'm like, do you guys know where that came from? That's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. The soccer, the soccer fans like to think they're the fifth, but no, I don't think so. You know, it's interesting what happened with the challenge though. Producer Craig, who's, who's producing this pod, who is in his mid twenties, probably 25. And he was saying he doesn't watch challenge because his generation they don't have cable so yeah they just like they get on it greg no they don't have cable they don't have mtb traditional way yeah so i think one of the things the challenge has to do is they have to get their the seasons on hulu or

whatever so we can get the 25 and under because i want it to continue to be i don't want to i don't want it to be what happened with baseball where they were like, yeah, screw young people. We'll have our world series games end at 1230 night. And then those kids grow up and they don't care about baseball. We have to protect the 25 and unders. I agree.

I think right now, I think, I think that's incredibly important too. Uh, but I, it, the, the funny thing that's happened with the challenge over the past few seasons is MTV, like all of the networks, they were really just really honed in on that 18 to 24 demographic,

right? Yeah. As long as those numbers were good, that's all that mattered. But what's unique about the challenge from any other show on MTV is the fan base. The majority of the fan base for the challenge is like 34 to like 54. We have a complete, like our fan base is so unique. And the reason why is because we're the only show ever that has taken, that has had cast members recast season after season after season. And the majority of

my fans are people that are around my age who have been watching me since my original season of the real world. And I think after a while MTV just decided like we got to embrace these fans because they are the most loyal MTV has the most loyal fans of any show on earth. Okay. Rabid. And they are downright. They could be downright nasty at the same time, but there's people that come on from other shows, big brother, whatever,

love Island. And the first season they do with the challenge, they're like, I I've never seen a fan base, this supportive and this rabid ever in my entire life. And I think, you know, so that's kind of how the,

how the challenge is unique, man, is the majority of our fans don't fit that same mold, you know? Second to last question, what's the best challenge season ever? So personally, okay, so my favorite challenge season beginning to end was Rivals 1, only because for me that was i mean it was the first time we ever was your rival i forget tyler yeah oh yeah you guys won that's why you liked it well that's why i liked it but it was the fashion that we won in okay it was the

first challenge where we ever had to relocate it It was the first overnight challenge. It was the, and I will, to the day I die, the hardest final in challenge history. All right. What that final did to us was just absolutely vicious. Went into that devastatingly, disgustingly terrifying elimination against Adam and CT, where we had to run blind through this called T-Bone. It was basically like, how can we kill you guys? What's a creative way? Adam choked though. Adam fell. He had it.

He choked. And then winning that final, I think that one was the hardest fought final. The most difficult final. Free agents is right up there too as well. I mean, personally, again, the alliance that I had to take down in order to win was Jordan, CT, Zach, and Johnny Riley. And I had to beat every single one of them at some point in the game.

And then I think above all, man, I know this kind of goes without saying, but this season was beginning to end from as far from the bunker, the amount of pressure I felt that was, that was on me to, to, to see this thing through, um, you know, and, uh, again, the pressure from the external pressure, the pressure I put on myself, uh, you know, my legacy, uh, I felt like it was all in line this season and I'm not gonna lie man I I was I don't know if from this point on as much as I want to sit here and tell you I'm gonna see another final I'm gonna win again dude your guess is as good as mine if that's ever just based on the the the level of of of competition these days the diabolical nature of the challenges the fact that I'm obviously like you know getting later on in life and I'm not the sprint you know as fry as i used to be challenges are getting harder and um

you know just trying to keep up has been difficult so uh yeah so this one was what was really special man for sure well i was i was really excited for you congrats who last question who are your three people for challenge BFF? Who? That's it. I'd have to say. They have to do this season. It's too good of an idea.

Challenge Besties, Challenge BFF, whatever you call it. Leroy, 100%. Yeah. And then. 92 females. Yep. I do Laurel. Laurel?

Yeah. Absolutely, dude. Love her. Because she's good or because she's your friend? Both. Both. Okay. Both. I love. No. Me and Laurel, dude, absolutely dude. Love her because she's good or because she's your friend. Both, both. Okay. Both.

I love, no, me and Laurel dude have, have a very, we have a very, very tight, uh, relationship.

Um, and, uh, who would, who would the fourth be? I'd have to say if we're doing besties, we'd probably have to be Nani. I was going to say if Nani wasn't on there,

I think she'd be hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that we just have all of us. I think the four of us have the longest history with them. By the way, that's a fun team. That would be a really fun team, man.

Be a really fun team. Not sure how well we would perform overall in daily challenges, but we would have a good time doing it. Corey, Nelson, Anissa, and who's the fourth? Fessy? No, no, it's got to be a girl. Oh, oh, Anissa, and who's the fourth? Fessy? No, no. It's got to be a girl. Oh, oh, oh.

Corey, Nelson, Anissa. Kayla. Kayla. Yep. Then CT, Cara Maria. Uh-huh. Do any other guys like CT? Wes.

So, yeah, CT and Wes would pretend they like each other. Exactly. Yep. And then Wes would probably try to get Emily in there and be like, no, no, CT and Wes would pretend they like each other. Exactly. Yep. Um, Wes would probably try to get Emily in there, but I know, no, Emily and I are really close.

We text every day. We're best friends. She's gotta be in there. Yeah. Uh, Ashley, Ashley Mitchell. Yeah.

Challenge besties. Tell your dudes. I like it, man. Listen, I think I, I I'm, I'm with it.

I'm with it. Tell the, the Boone and Murray team. I'm sure they're going to listen to this. I'm sure they're going to listen to this and I'll probably be a reprimanded for, you know, some of the tea I've spilled, but whatever. That's where we're at. Challenge besties bananas. Congrats. Number seven. I'm proud of you.

Thank you, Bill. I appreciate it, man. Listen, I got it. And I know I tell you this every time, but I'll say it again. It's guys like you that, that, that, that really bring the challenge into a whole different dimension, um, and having support and, uh, you know, long time fans like you is what is what makes it is what makes this really special, man. So, so thank you as well. Appreciate it. All right. Have a good weekend. All right. You too, my brother. Thanks. All right. Thanks so much to Zip Recruiter.

Thanks to Ennis Cantor. Thanks to Johnny Bananas. I'm positive this is the first time they've been the only two guests on the same podcast. Enjoy the weekend. We will be back. This is the last time, the second to last time I'm doing a two podcast week. Next week, two podcasts on this feed,

Tuesday and Thursday. And we'll be doing at least one Rewatchables if you missed the Rewatchables with Wesley Morris on 25th Hour. That happened. Go check that one out as well. Enjoy the weekend and see you again on this feed on Tuesday. I don't have.