The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 147: NBA Power Rankings With Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: November 30, 2016

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons brings on Ringer NBA writer Kevin O'Connor to properly rank all 30 teams in the league, discuss the Mavs' tanking strategy (6:00), the Brandon Knight issue with the Suns (12:00), if the Timberwolves should tank (16:00), the struggling Magic (20:00), Justise Winslow vs. Stanley Johnson (25:00), Luke Walton's baby Lakers (29:00), teams to watch at the trade deadline (37:00), Boston and Boogie (44:00), the not-so-great Pacers (52:00), the Hawks with Dwight Howard and Dennis Schroder (1:02:00), pseudo contenders like the Celtics (1:05:00), Rockets and Raptors, and Warriors vs. Cavs: The Trilogy (1:12:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's special NBA Power Rankings of the BS Podcast is brought to you by SeatGeek. That's our presenting sponsor. The only fan-friendly app for buying and selling tickets for sports and music. Drop your old ticket app. Use one bill for 2016 and beyond. Do everything on your phone. Download the free SeatGeek app or go to SeatGeek.com. We're also brought to you by Dick's Sporting Goods.

In recent years, over $3.5 billion have been cut from school sports budgets. The Dick's Sporting Goods Foundation is trying to reverse this funding crisis. It's already saved hundreds of teams from being eliminated and still needs your support. This holiday season, purchase a pair of green shoelaces at Dick's to show your support for youth sports. $2 of each pair sold will go directly to help one of the hundreds of teams in needs. Visit sportsmatter.org to learn more. We're also brought to you by theringer.com. I have a big piece coming up.

We're taping this on a Wednesday. I have a big piece coming up tomorrow on theringer.com. So if you want to read me, my fingers still work apparently. If you want to read me on the ringer, go there tomorrow, theringer.com. So if you want to read me, my fingers still work. Apparently, uh, if you want to read me on the ringer, go there tomorrow, the ringer.com. We have Kevin O'Connor coming up right now. Let's do it. All right. On the line is Kevin O'Connor from the ringer. We are about to bang through a power rankings list that we actually agreed with, although I did flip number four and number three after what we witnessed last night. How are you?

Doing great, Bill. How are you doing? All right, so we're going to zoom through these. We have to do 30 teams. We're going backwards. We're going from 30 to 1. And for one of the few times I can remember ever making one of these lists, that 30 and one are both kind of up in the air. And we actually disagreed on one. I don't know if we totally disagreed on 30, but you can make a case that the 30 that we have should not be the 30. We're going to break these down by tiers. We have nine tiers in all. The first tier is Tankapalooza 2017.

There are five teams in this tier. The teams are number 30, Philly, number 29, Dallas, number 28, Miami, number 27, Phoenix, and number 26, the very scrappy and very hopeless Brooklyn Nets. So let's start at 30. Why do we think Philly is the worst team in the league? Well, when Joel Embiid's not on the floor, I think they're pretty much an unwatchable team so far this season.

But when Embiid is playing, they're perhaps number one in my heart in terms of rankings. But he's not playing every game, and when he's not on the floor for them, they're just not very good. I think they're 30 because they're still in the process stage right now. Dario Saric is developing, but he's not where he needs to be. Still haven't gotten Ben Simmons back. Hopefully, when he returns to the floor, we're able to bump them up.

But right now, they're just not at the stage where they need to be. Embiid's only playing like 22 minutes a game, and he's putting up ridiculous per-minute numbers numbers and he's so freaking fun to watch did they say when his when his uh limitation on the minutes is is that going to be all year or do they feel like that's gradually going to wear off i think that's supposed to wear off at some point during the year okay because i have a feeling it's not going to wear off and I have a feeling we're going to see Ben Simmons later than usual. I mean, part of the issue with that team is they just, they stockpiled too many assets that were too redundant and I don't know what they do. I mean,

Okafor has taken a big step back this year, both statistically and with the eye test. They don't really have any point guards to get these big guys to ball that you would consider above average. Noel hasn't even come back yet. he seems like he's taking his sweet time and trying to put a gun to their head and get them to trade him so i would assume they're gonna make a trade right yeah i mean at some point like you mentioned noel and simmons when those guys get back on the floor there's gonna be even less available minutes for everybody for okafor for mb for Sarich playing the four it's hard for them to get guys minutes at the positions they should and even a guy like Robert Covington personally I think he's at his best when he's perhaps playing a small ball four spot or at least the three I agree with floor spacing but

but when you have like if they run a lineup with i don't know okafor simmons and sarich and then they have covington at the two i don't think that's the best scenario for his personal development as a player never mind the fact that there's just not enough available minutes for all the guys they have so yeah i would say at some point they should and need to make a trade yeah and the other issue is that everybody knows the need to make a trade and I'm sure they're gun shy about giving somebody away for 40 cents on the dollar, but you know, Sarich isn't playing that well. He's not shooting that well. I like him. I liked him internationally, but, uh, you know, offensively I have some questions after, after watching him for 20 games. But at the same time, when you have players that just don't fit as a five-man nucleus and so much redundancy, it's hard to say which guys even would thrive in a different offense.

Even somebody like Hollis Thompson who makes threes, there's not a lot of guys who make 40% of their threes. Everybody's looking for those guys. You could just cherry pick four or five guys from this team and plug them in. For the Celtics, Noel would really potentially make an impact for them. They don't have anybody like him. But what's he worth? Or even a team like Portland. All right, so Dallas at 29, I think.

We probably should have seen this coming. There's so much respect for the infrastructure and for Dirk and for Carlisle. They brought in Harrison Barnes. We knew there was a chance they'd dip in the lottery. I didn't think they would be this bad. I didn't realize that Wesley Matthews was going to be one of the worst starters in the league.

Darren Williams losing it might have been a little bit predictable. Dirk being bagged up might have been predictable. Every single thing has gone against them. And it's literally impossible for them to make the playoffs unless they go 15 games over 500 the rest of the way. Do they tank? And if they tank, how do they tank? How would you do it?

I think they should tank at some point. I know Mark Cuban said last week how around game 70 or 75 they'll consider it. I think that's fair i i i wrote last week on the ringer.com about how this is a unique year for tanking because there's not really any especially bad teams like i don't think there's a team that'll win maybe only 10 games so if they did tank late late they could tank for 20 wins instead of worrying about getting down to 12 right um so i think they can tank later if they want to but with that said the trade deadline is in february and they'll have an opportunity at that time to unload a guy like andrew bogut if they want to if they wanted to bring back perhaps maybe a first

round draft pick for him because i would think a team would a team that's a contender would have a lot of interest in him he's still a great rebounder still a great room protector and despite the fact he's aging and he's a free agent guy like him could really boost your chances in the playoffs so really if if i'm dallas i'm thinking around february is when you start unloading some of these guys who have value value and you're not going to stick keep want to keep around going forward and maybe around that time you still stay competitive uh but you're not a good team so you're essentially tanking i I would do it now. I wouldn't even wait.

Why wait until February? Right now? Bogut has more value now. Every day that they don't trade him and every day that everybody else knows they're not going to make the lottery. I think December 15th is when all the guys who were signed over the summer basically can get traded with the exception of like the Tyler Zeller types. But if they can get a matching expiring contract back and get a first round pick, you trade them because not only are you getting an asset, but it makes your team better.

And I think for a team like the Celtics, he would have a dramatic impact for them. They don't have anybody like him. They don't have a rebounder, shop walker, screen setter, tough guy. You know,

if you just flipped him with Amir Johnson, who I like, but is a little bit redundant without Horford, you know, I think that would make the Celtics a much better team. And the Celtics have to think about doing something like that because even if it doesn't seem like it when you're watching them, they're one of the best seven teams in the league. And who the hell knows? Who knows what could happen with Cleveland? Kyrie could pull a hamstring. You just never know.

So I think they have an obligation to get a little bit better. Miami is a team that I'm very proud of myself. I did the over-under podcast with House, and I picked the over for Miami and said they were going to be a sleeper. But then if you listen later on in the podcast, I admitted I was reverse jinxing them. And it worked because they are terrible. Hassan Whiteside is just putting up one of the all-time great good stats on a bad team seasons that we've seen. He's going to be at 15 rebounds a game, and they're probably headed for 28 to 30 wins. The trade for them is Goran Dragic, who has a pretty big contract left, although I don't even know what a pretty big contract is anymore.

There are some teams that can use somebody like him. They paid a hefty price just to get him a couple years ago do you think they would trade him i think they i think they could and i think perhaps they should i look at them very similar to how we just spoke about dallas i think they're a team where if they were to take and if they were to unload some of their better guys and if they were to get a top pick, in some ways, I don't know if these are teams that want to be necessarily patient. I know Pat Riley definitely wouldn't want to be patient, but if you have that top pick in a draft by tanking and trading these players for assets,

you can turn those assets around and use those in trades to have a fast rebuild. Tanking doesn't necessarily mean the Sixers' definition of tanking, right? I think the tank this year could lead to a faster rebuild. So, yeah, if I were them, Drogic has, I think, three years left on his contract and maybe with an option, I think a player option on the fourth year. So, look, is he a guy that you see as a future piece for you if you're Miami? I don't know. I think under the core they had with Bosh and Wade,

he was part of it. But I don't know if he's necessarily part of what you would want to build around with a team with Justice Winslow and Hassan Whiteside as maybe part of your core. Well, the other thing is Riley has a history of when he doesn't like what he's seeing, he throws in the towel. And he's done this in the past, and he'll do it again. And it makes sense because now all the tickets for this year are paid for you only have at this point 60 games left

in the season like why not the the thing about tanking is it ends a lot sooner than you realize it's going to end and i also think you know they really could be one of the one of the worst four or five teams if they went for it pho Phoenix is at 27 and that's a team that is naturally going to tank. It's my favorite kind of tanking team. The team that just has a bunch of young people. They're going to be in games. They're going to have some fun moments, but ultimately they're so young and just precocious and not ready yet. And Earl Watson is not doing the many favors either, but that's a team that will win between you know 19 and 27 games and probably could have won more if a couple things had gone

right down the stretch but they're in perfect shape I I if I'm them I would just keep it going they have a Brandon Knight issue that uh you know they paid a pretty hefty price for him although now that Lakers pick who knows maybe that Lakers pick isn't even a top 10 pick that they gave up but brandon knight is the only person on that team that i could see them trading is brandon knight even worth anything i'm not sure i i think perhaps he's someone that they should look to move but i'm i'm curious about devin booker obviously his development has been awesome right right? I think he's better than anybody could have expected at the stage of his career, but he's still shooting only 33% from three, and he was really, really streaky at Kentucky, and he's really streaky now. And

that wasn't a concern of mine, or it wasn't a major concern of mine prior to the draft, but a lot of guys never get over their streakiness. And I'm wondering what level shooter is he really, right? I think he's going to be a great player with a long career. Don't get me wrong. But he's a key part of their future. And I wonder what he really is as a shooter. Yeah, I mean, you watch Jamal Murray on Denver, who you can just tell he's going to be a really good shooter for his entire career.

I don't, I don't think there's the up and down with that Booker has, but I think Booker's ceiling is probably a little bit higher. He's so young, you know, he's still 19. He was the youngest guy in the league last year. And he's basically the equivalent of a rookie coming in this year.

I like him. I think there's something about him. I wouldn't, I wouldn't touch him or mess with him. I do think he's in a really strange situation with Bledsoe and Knight, where they're older. They're also guys who are used to having the ball all the time, and it's just a weird mix.

I don't love the coach either. Brooklyn at 26, we don't have to talk about them. They're in no man's land. They're scrappy. They're young. They're trying to build stuff. They don't really have any building blocks whatsoever, but they have no incentive to tank because the celtics are going to swap picks with them

so you're going to have nights like last night where the clippers show up they're in a fog i was texting my dad at one point is doc throwing this game to fuck with our pick because it felt like it uh and then they win in double overtime and those are the kind of games that make the difference between the celtics getting the fifth pick or the first pick i don't want to dwell on that uh i feel bad for brooklyn uh to the degree that uh i think everybody on that team's trying i don't feel bad because the celtics have their pick this year next year let's go to the maybe tankers uh four teams on this list wow i'll just i'll just go in order 25 minnesota the biggest shock of the season for me i thought that tibbs was going to be a dramatic upgrade for them i thought they're going to be

able to play defense right away i thought they were very sleepery and it's been the opposite and i watched them and i have a handle on every team in the league to some degree where I watch them and I go, Oh, here's the problem with them. Oh, this doesn't work. Oh, they have redundancy here. Oh, you know, if they just had this one player, this would happen. I watch Minnesota and I can't figure out what's wrong. What do you think is wrong? I feel the same bill. It's hard to tell. I mean, I know know this has been talked about before, but they still have the third best net rating in the first half of games, and it's the worst in the second half. They just collapse.

Over and over again. It's really, really hard. Yeah, it's a repeat every game, really, and it's hard to put my finger on what area it is. I know Towns' numbers drop a little bit in the second in the second half of games and in some ways i think maybe expectations at least personally for me were maybe a little bit too high for him to start this season he's still been tremendous don't again uh it's not a knock on him but maybe we were expecting a little bit too much from him in his second year he's again

he's only 21 years old as well. Andrew Wiggins has really cooled off shooting the ball. But again, still, they're getting good individual performances. Even Levine's been really good shooting the ball and obviously with all his fantastic dunks. But again, I think in some way... It's almost like a baseball team, where if you just look at all the averages and the home runs and the RBI and the ERA, you're like, wow wow why isn't this team better but when you watch them they're kind of

put together like a baseball team like i'm not sure first of all towns and wiggins are untouchable for me i'm not sure levine makes sense with those two guys and yeah you know whether he should be a six man coming off the bench whether they should flip him for somebody else, I don't know. I can't figure it out. I like watching them. I want them to do well. I'd like maybe seven or eight of their players, and for whatever reason, as a collection, it doesn't work.

I'm confused. I think they should try to trade Levine. I do too. I like him a little bit more than i expected to but at the same time that kid he still doesn't play good defense at all and he still doesn't do a lot else besides shoot and dunk um if i'm if i'm the wolves i i'm trying to sell him perhaps for a king's ransom maybe another team looks at him and sees him

as better than he actually is because he's scoring 30 points scoring 19 19 points per game nearly 20 points per game i'm pretty sure and sees him as better than he actually is because he's scoring 30 points. He's scoring 19 points per game, nearly 20 points per game, I'm pretty sure. I think maybe they could get a little bit more for him than perhaps they should, a little similar to Michael Carter Williams when the Sixers traded him a couple years ago. Similar scenario, perhaps. Well, he's only 21. He's better than I thought he was going to be.

I did the draft that he was in. I just wasn't seeing it. I was not a fan either. Athletically, he's just so gifted that it makes up for a lot of the deficiencies. But I wonder if he's somebody that could he be the guy who just has the ball in the last five minutes of a game for somebody. And maybe maybe that's how you use him. I don't know how far you're going in that situation.

But you watch a team like Sacramento and they don't really have the quote unquote creator. Like they have to run everything through Boogie and Rudy Gay. Basically, they don't have that perimeter guy who can kind of create where there's eight seconds left in the shot clock. Can somebody in the perimeter create a shot? They don't have that perimeter guy who can kind of create, when there's eight seconds left in the shot clock, can somebody in the perimeter create a shot? They don't have that guy. So for somebody like that team, he would make sense to me. They don't have anything to trade.

But Minnesota, I'm not sure Levine is Tibbs' type of guy. There's a bigger picture thing, and I almost hesitate to say it because it's so early and this team's so young. But there is a little bit of an alpha doggy thing missing with them I think Towns I love Towns I don't think I don't think I wouldn't describe him as an animal you know like somebody who's gonna rip your heart out to win a game Wiggins clearly isn't and I wonder if that has something to do with it you know you saw you watch somebody like Giannis last night, who I'm not calling Greek freak anymore. I'm just calling him the Greek. I think the Greek sounds more menacing and intimidating.

That's fair. Giannis was like, I'm better than LeBron, and I'm going at him all night. Now, that's not true, but Giannis believed it. He's like, I'm better than this guy. I'm more athletic. I'm younger. I'm taking it to him.

And played that way. And I'm not sure Minnesota has anyone on their roster who's kind of wired like that i think yannis is you know he's a killer that's that's been forget about all the physical stuff that that that is just amazing when you watch him night after night after night but i didn't realize he was such like a nasty competitor you know he's like a top 10 competitor. No, for sure. I think last night we saw from Giannis definitely perhaps a glimpse of the future of what we're going to see from him on a very consistent basis. Yeah.

I don't even know how to describe that future. But God damn, I can't remember three guys going at LeBron like that. You know, I think Kawhi went at LeBron like that. I think Wade used to go like at LeBron like that. I think Kawhi went at LeBron like that. I think Wade used to go at LeBron like that once upon a time. But athletically, it's really just over the course of 14 years of LeBron, it's been very, very, very rare to see somebody just kind of look at him and go, I'm taking a T tonight. I'm not afraid of you.

And athletically, I can handle everything you have to bring to the table. I was really impressed. Uh, so who knows with Minnesota number 24, Washington, we can skip over them. They're a mess. They're going to have to come to grips with whether they want to trade John Wall or not and what they can get for them. I, if I'm running Washington, I would trade John Wall right now. I would just move him for picks and do a complete tank of Palooza and try to rebuild and put myself in a much better spot. I think it's going to take years to put a decent team around

them. And the fact that Kevin Durant didn't even want to meet with them should have been a come to Jesus moment for that team. And apparently it wasn't. Orlando 23. Is this the worst conceived roster that we have it has to be right this there's no worst dumber roster that we have in the nba this season than this roster god so i i liked a lot of what heading rob henning and did in prior years until this summer i, I'm so confused by some of the moves that they made or some of the moves that they didn't make, right?

I can understand wanting to bring in Biambo, but I don't understand it if you're not going to trade Vucevic. I can understand bringing in, wanting to trade for Serge Ibaka, but again, not if you're not going to trade Vucevic or if you're going to sign Biambo. I don't understand signing Jeff Green at all. I don't understand that the fact that they benched Aaron Gordon for eight games to start Jeff Green of 188 players to attempt 100 shots so far this season.

Jeff Green ranks the second worst in effective field goal percentage. Second worst. Only Justice Winslow is worse. And Jeff Green doesn't offer any playmaking he doesn't offer a lot on defense because he's so inconsistent on that end of the floor he's not a good rebounder so you're benching perhaps i think maybe the brightest young player on their roster in aaron gordon and putting him in a role that's i don't think to the to the greatest benefit for his development and i mean jeff green just, it stuns me.

Aaron Gordon's a small ball four who's playing out of position basically every minute he's on the court for this team. And Jeff Green, four teams had Jeff Green on their team and said, you know what? We're good. We're going to send this guy along. Four teams have already done that.

They gave him like $9 million a year. They also overpaid Augustine. But they gave away Tobias Harris last year basically for nothing. Then spent that money on Jeff Green and DJ Augustine. They brought in Biambo when they already had Vucevic. They traded for Ibaka. They gave up a lot for Ibaka.

Like Oladipo's playing well on OKC and Sabonis is a legitimate rookie playing right away and getting minutes and doing stuff although i don't understand why why doesn't he post up what happened to sabonis's post-up game i i know somebody needs to show him in college show show sabonis tapes of of some of the stuff he did in college. Show Sabonis tapes of some of the stuff he did in college. Get him going. But that trade was terrible and I think Abaka is on the wrong side

of his career. If he thinks he's getting 30 million, God bless Serge, but I'm not seeing it. You're not getting 30 million putting up 15 and seven a night. He's a free agent

next summer too. That team needs to make a bunch of trades and what's interesting, oh, we didn't even mention Hazonia, who gets DMPs. Who's the fifth pick in the best draft of this decade. Just like he did overseas.

Yeah. He was the fifth pick in the best draft of the decade. So obviously this team has trades to make. I don't think Hennigan should be the one making those trades. I hate saying somebody should be fired, but if I own Orlando, I'm getting somebody else to make those moves. I don't know who that is, but too much,

just an unbelievably weird roster. And the funny thing is there are teams that could use some of the guys that they have. So there are trades for them to make. New Orleans at 22, there's a team that just has nobody I like other than Anthony Davis. The Buddy Heald for Jamal Murray.

Not a Buddy Heald guy? I thought Buddy was, you know, it really could go either way with these 22-year-olds coming in the draft. Like Damien Lillard, and I remember I wrote this in my draft diary, that Damien Lillard versus Austin Rivers. I'm like, how do you take Damian Lillard?

Austin Rivers is three years younger. The player he's going to be three years from now. How can you say that whatever that is doesn't have more potential than Damian Lillard right now? Of course, that was idiotic. You go the other way, Buddy Heald versus Jamal Murray. And now if you do it over again, take Jamal Murray 100 times out of 100 is basically the same argument.

But that time it worked. And that's a really bad missed pick for them because he would have been a nice fit with davis too i don't know what they do they they obviously can't trade davis he's putting up 31 and 11 every night and winning games by himself but i feel bad for the situation he's in i do not feel bad for him from the sense that he signed up for the situation and knew that they had a shaky front office and a shaky ownership and not a lot of building blocks around him and signed up for it anyway. So what would you do to save the New Orleans situation? It's hard because next summer they're going to have to make a choice because Drew Holiday

will be a free agent. So you re-sign him right he's your second best player but at the same time is he the guy that you want to be your second best player is he the guy that you want to be paying and occupying all that cap space and if you do pay him i think it'll make it more difficult for them to make moves down the line which could be on the table which might not be on the table for them um so it would just inhibit their flexibility to make moves if they were to sign holiday but at the same time if they don't sign holiday they'll be even worse than they currently are so i wonder if in some ways and this would be risky for them but really is the solution winning the draft lottery is it's just

pure luck and nailing that pick and getting another star player right i mean is that is that really their only path for them uh because i don't see a path through trades i don't unless they traded the pick and for agency i don't see how their destination i would wonder if the draft and getting lucky is their best route i rarely recommend this but i would in this case i would trade the pick and i would try to get, I actually think there's a market for that pick and I think there's teams, we just mentioned Orlando, a team like Minnesota, a team like Miami,

who knows? There are teams out there that would kind of overpay for that pick and I think Orlando is- Right now? Yeah, I think Orlando is a really logical New Orleans trade. You know, if New Orleans is like,

we'll give you our first round pick, you give us blank and blank, Orlando's got to think about it because they're going to stink anyway. I think, I don't know, that's what I would say to them. Let's take a break and we'll come right back. We'll do the next tier.

Let's talk about SimpliSafe. If you want to protect your home this winter, have a seat, take a breath and listen up. Right now, SimpliSafe. If you want to protect your home this winter, have a seat, take a breath, and listen up. Right now, SimpliSafe Home Security is having its biggest deal ever. Protect your home. Save big. Get $200 off their exclusive holiday package. Oh, yeah, you heard me.

$200. With SimpliSafe, you won't have to worry about burglars casing your house, and you don't have to worry about weird noises at 3 a.m. SimpliSafe protects your family with 24-7 professional security monitoring and enough sensors to defend your entire home. You get 24-7 professional monitoring for just $15 a month. That's less than half what the other guys charge, by the way. And by having it, you could save up to 20% on your home insurance.

Try SimpliSafe right now. Get your $200 off today at simply safe bs.com go now sale end soon simply safe with two eyes once again simply safe bs.com all right we're a little behind schedule so we got to zoom through this a little bit with this next group is the young and hungry group it's a very fun group we have four young and hungry really fun teams. Detroit is probably the one that's underachieved the most. We don't really need to talk about them yet because it's hard to assess them until Reggie Jackson comes back. The one thing I wanted to ask you is Stanley Johnson.

Did they whiff on that one? I was split a little bit on Stanley Johnson in that draft. I like a lot of what he does, but at the same time, there's things in his game that just weren't that attractive to me. In some ways, I think perhaps they did whiff on him, especially taking him over Justice Winslow. Even though Winslow isn't scoring the ball well, just like Johnson isn't, Winslow does so many other things well on the floor as a playmaker,

as a versatile defender, as a playmaker as a versatile defender as a leader and stanley johnson i don't think has those intangibles that winslow has so i would say that they whiffed on it even though i'm not ready to say that with full confidence since it's only the beginning of a second year it was a double whiff because at the time i would have rather had winslow than stanley johnson but then they also missed out on the trey lyles miles turner um yep who's the other guy devin booker there who's the fourth guy in there and Stanley Johnson. But then they also missed out on the Trey Lyles, Miles Turner. Yep. Who was the other guy?

Devin Booker. Who was the fourth guy in there? From 11 to 14 was a murderer's row. Maybe those were the three. I can't remember. But yeah, they missed out on all those guys. And Stanley Johnson's barely playing. So Denver, you and I are both infatuated by.

Denver is one of the great rebounding teams in modern basketball they're rebounding almost 50 50 boards a game there's certain matchups like when they played the Celtics I was like fuck we have no chance in this game they're dominating us they have three guys I think that are close to eight rebounds or above eight rebounds Farid Nurkickic, and Jokic. And it's a really nice roster and it's kind of dangerous. And did you throw this out or did we talk? I can't even remember where this came up with, but the Moutier and something else and a pick for John Wall type of trade would really make this team interesting, if jamal murray took off i actually think they're underachieving what do you think

i think you know you mentioned the john wall trade we did talk about that before and yeah i think for them sure i think getting a superstar like john wall would perhaps send them to a higher level i don't know if they're underachieving they're still a young team and i think mike malone at the beginning of the year was still trying to figure out the best lineup combinations with yokich and nurkic starting at first to start the season and now yokich is coming off the bench and maury was obviously struggling at one point i think he started oh for 17 they get a young team still and they're 7 and 10 in the west which I don't know if I'd call that underachieving, but I think they have room for growth. Maybe by the end of the year we're looking at them as a late riser,

maybe as their young players continue to develop over the course of the season. I love their team, and I think they're really doing something special right now. I love their team too. I like watching them, and if the NBA had ever adopted my entertaining as hell tournament where you have the 14 playoff seeds are clinched, but then you have the 16 team single elimination tournament for the last two seeds. I think Denver in mid-April would be the sleeper of that tournament. I would not want to play them in mid-April. I like them. The Lakers, we talked about them before the season, the baby Lakers some pieces that you know i really liked

and i was excited to see them play without kobe i was not expecting the lou williams slash nick young renaissance randall is a different guy that the luke walton um has answered every question about whether he was just running on the steve cure fumes or whether he could actually coach he was a fantastic hire i like everythingierfumes or whether he could actually coach. He was a fantastic hire. I like everything I'm seeing. I wish Brandon Ingram played a little bit more. Luau Dang was as bad of a

signing as we worried that it might be. That would be my only real nitpick. Mozgov, whatever. Maybe worse. It's not like he's playing that bad. And when you look at Joakim Noah and Evan Turner and some of these other contracts, was not one of the three worst contracts given out last summer. I really like with the Lakers the foundation that they have.

And it's fun to watch Laker games again. It's more fun to have a fun Lakers team in basketball. It just is. What do you think? Oh, absolutely. They've been probably one of my favorite teams to watch, really, especially of the group we're talking about here i think you know really in some ways i think this goes across all sports

general managers and coaches often don't win the award in the year that they deserve it because usually the coach or the gm that wins it is on the championship team or a team that won the most games or top five most games but what luke Walton is doing with this team, installing that system successfully with these young guys and how they're embracing it and how I think, I mean, it's kind of cheesy, but their thing that they say coming out of timeouts, I love basketball. Just the chemistry these guys have compared to the Byron Scott, Kobe Bryant era,

it's unbelievable, I think. And honestly, I think Luke Walton should get some Coach of the Year award votes by the end of the season just because of what he's done with this team so quickly. The funniest prank ever would be if Luke Walton went into the locker room with hidden cameras and told everybody that Kobe has decided to come back. I really think... That would be the greatest prank. I really think it would be like a prank. I really think it would be like

a tsunami warning. I think people would be running out of the locker room at full speed, bowling over each other and stepping on equipment managers. We should mention with the Lakers, they did get lucky in the lottery. You know, they did pick seventh, third and second. They were in two straight lotteries where they won one of the top three picks. This could have gone a lot worse. They could have ended up especially— I think they get a lot of credit for taking Russell over Okafor. That was not a popular pick at the time.

But Brandon Ingram, that was a two-player draft. And then after that, who knows? Jalen Brown versus Jamal Murray. From three on, it was just everybody had an opinion but brandon ingram was the prize and they were really lucky to get them milwaukee at 18 the this might be too low after what we watched last night we might we might have underestimated the bucks i. I'm reconsidering this one a little bit. They should be up in the next group at least. They have, yes. They have somebody in Giannis that is, something's happening.

And I think last night we could look back at that game last night and go, all right, that was the night. I like the team. I think they have trades to make if they wanted. The Chris Middleton, doing this with Tony Snell and the Chris Middleton spot, if they had had Chris Middleton on this team, you could argue this is a top 10 team. Now, Middleton, by all accounts, that hamstring injury has, I've never even heard of somebody's hamstring tearing off the bone. I don't know what that means. It sounds horrible. I can't imagine he's going to

come back at full strength this season. But, uh, but man, Milwaukee is one of those night-to-night teams where no matter if they're playing Golden State, Cleveland, Boston, whoever, if they're feeling it, you're like, wow, this team's really something.

What would you change about them if you could make one trade? You know, I had, so last week I wrote the article about teams that should tank, and I had an interesting conversation with one executive, and he says to me, you know the team that should tank? Milwaukee. And he made the case that because of the Middleton injury, they have a unique situation where without him, they're not a top 10 team, like you said, right? So they're kind of a fringe playoff team at this point. And in some ways, I wonder if they'd be better off just missing the playoffs.

Instead of being that 7 or 8 seed, end up with the 10th or 11th pick, right? And look, I understand that in most most years it's not going to sound like a great pick but this year's draft is really really deep and they they drafted yannis i think 15th um a couple years ago we talked about the run a couple years ago with miles turner trey lyles they could end up with a really really good player that could complete their roster um by just missing the playoffs by ending up with the 10th picker so um so in some ways i don't know if they need to make a trade more so than perhaps tanking a little bit out of the playoffs winning winning 30 games instead of

37 games could work out a little bit better for them going forward um getting another nice young player but they get a they get a beautiful roster. In some ways, they could just stick with what they have and continue development. But I think adding a player through the draft could be big for them. You know, I did the draft with Giannis for ESPN, and Jalen and I were watching the clips because we started studying for it in like April

and Giannis was, you know, he was clearly something, but I mean, those clips are probably still on YouTube. He was playing and it looked like he was playing against eighth graders in the YMCA. And it was like, what do you make of this guy? I was like, all right, yeah, he's long and athletic, but he's, are those kids that he's playing against, are they 15? We just couldn't figure it out.

So where he went was around the right pick that he should have gone, but in retrospect, you think, wow, Sam Hinckley. If the process was to be terrible and to draft long shot young players that would pay off later, but in the short term would either be playing overseas or just hurting your team. Them taking Michael Carter Williams over Giannis is,

is, is a great what if. So they had Giannis on that Philly team. Holy shit. Forget it. What do you do with Greg Monroe? Yeah, he's probably the guy I would deal, but at the same same time i don't know what you're going to get for him i i don't know if he has much valuable value nowadays in today's nba and i don't maybe a team would like him as a weapon off the bench but i don't know if monroe necessarily wants to be

that and i'm pretty sure he's a free agent next summer, right? Well, you know, there's a glut of expensive big guys, which made it so funny when you had the Lakers and the Knicks and all these different teams just paying $16, $17 million a year for big guys before everyone realized, oh, wait, there's too many of them. And then you have those Festus Azui, Zaza, Peculia type of deals that people got later in the summer. I don't know who would trade for Greg Monroe, who would take on that salary, but there's like six guys like that.

I don't know who would trade for Joakim Noah. If the Knicks went to the Celtics right now and said, hey, do you guys want to reunite Horford and Joakim Noah? We'll just take Amir Johnson's expiring back. It'll be great. The Celtics would hang up. If they went to Portland. Might block the number two.

Right. If they went to Portland, they were like, what about, you know, Evan Turner's not really working out for you guys. What if we just flip Noah and Evan Turner? Portland would hang up. Noah has no value. Yep. So I don't know what happens to some of these big guys.

All right. I like my, let's, we haven't really disagreed. We got to figure out more things to disagree on. I disagree with Milwaukee. I would go the other way. I'd want to get Giannis a taste of the playoffs. And I would be trying to figure out how to get this team better because I think he has a chance to be special. And what I saw last night was somebody that is ready to, you know,

really dip his toe into the water, and I'm excited about it. What I'm not excited about are the futures of these next three teams. The trade deadliners. There's three of them. 17 Sacramento, 16 Portland, 15 New York. And all of them have the same problem. Everybody knows they have to make a trade. Sacramento's got a trade boogie.

Portland's got to do something. And I guess McCollum would be the guy. By the way, CJ, if you're listening, we're big fans of your game at the ringer. You're just going to be the fall guy if they make a trade. And then the Knicks, it's time. It's time to trade Carbello. It's time.

Ooh. Yeah. Whoa. It's time. Talk me out of it. I just want to see what happens when they just banish Joakim Noah to the bench. And right now I think he's supposed to be out. And Hornacek said today that they might start Porzingis at the five,

which would push Melo to the four. And I think that's by far their most lethal lineup combination. Yeah, but they've been – In some ways – You've been watching the crunch time, so they've been basically doing that in the fourth quarter of these games. I know. And that's the lineup they've been playing. With the guy that nobody had ever heard of

in their life that Jason Concepcion thought was an auto player on NBA 2K, the, what's that guy's name? Matsunakanakas?

Yeah, close enough. Matsunakanakas? Who nobody ever heard of? I'm still not sure he's real, but sometimes he makes big threes and MSG goes wild.

But yeah, you're probably right. Maybe 15 more games of just bump Noah out of the way and play Carmelo at the small ball four. But my issue with them is Rose and Melo in the last five minutes of the game basically just freezing out Porzingis. And if I'm a Knicks fan, if I'm coaching Knicks, if I'm coaching Knicks if I'm running the Knicks all I care about is Porzingis I'm not winning the title this year all I want is for Porzingis to be in the same position that Giannis

is in in Milwaukee you want to get this guy reps you want crunch time reps you want end of the game reps you want nervous reps you want all that stuff it's not helping anyone to have him just kind of standing there or for him setting a screen, Derek Rose, two guys going with Derek Rose and then Derek Rose not passing him the ball and just going one on two. None of that stuff helps him. So

I feel like they have to do something. You disagree though. I just think Carmelo is, is just a draw for them. And I think, I think even though Carmelo is just a draw for them. And I think even though Carmelo is, I think, 32 right now, if you have him for the next five, six years as Porzingis develops into a superstar, I think Carmelo becomes the number two behind Porzingis. And look, they're a free agent destination. Are they as much of a free agent destination without Carmelo there?

If it's just porzingis and if it's a young rebuilding team i'm not sure if they are unless they hang on to at least one of them and obviously derrick rose i don't know what this stuff is about resigning him i think that would be the dumbest decision that they can honestly make i i don't even know how is that real how could that even be real you know it's so funny who's the knicks announcer is it wally serbiak wally i don't know who's the guy who announces who's the color guy in the knicks games for msg because there was that one game where rose just ball hog the ball when porzingis was hot and then rose ball hog the ball down the stretch but then he made the game-winning thing and the announcer

was like derrick rose is back it's like that guy couldn't guard me at this point. Westbrook destroyed him. I would not resign Derrick Rose. I think you've talked me out of the Carmelo thing. You're right. But the key is Carmelo has to accept that he's the wingman for Porzingis. I don't think he's even 5% close

to accepting that yet. I still feel like he thinks this is his team. He does not see maybe the writing on the wall here. This is Porzingis' team, and that's where this is heading. And the sooner everybody who runs that team realizes that, the better they are. Sacramento is Boogie's team. We have them at number 17.

He's not going to stay. The team's a mess. They're going to go in the lottery again again he's going to become increasingly more unhappy just trade him trade him now you're not you're not resigning him why wouldn't they trade him now i don't understand it explain it to me i think i think in some ways they're just holding on to that hope of being able to bring a guy in to pair with boogie i know the other day he said before the game against the wizards how i mean he was half joking but i think he was in some ways mostly serious of how it would be nice if john wall wore a sacramento kings jersey someday um and that's a great a great idea i mean it would make a lot of sense to pair cousins with

john wall however the thing is is they don't have the assets to trade for a bona fide star player. They don't have the rights to their 2017 pick because it has protections. They could lose it if it's not a top 10 pick. They don't have their 2019 pick. So they can't trade their 2018 and they can't trade their 2020. So the next first round pick they can deal isn't until 2021. And then their player assets, they don't have any players that are worth putting together for a package for John Wall. Papianas, young, talented player, but he hasn't proved anything at the NBA level. Cauley Stein, I like him still,

but again, not a ton of value. Scalabissier, talented young player, but he fell in the draft for a good reason. Malachi Richardson, I'm not a fan and i know a lot of teams aren't fans of him some teams were there's a lot of split on malachi richardson so they don't have a lot of players that are great value assets so i don't see a path for them to bring in that star player unless those guys suddenly show this drastic improvement um i think boogie is just the best way for them to get another top 10 pick and more young players and then build through the stack draft and have a young team and then next year you're looking more like the young lakers roster with a lot of talent and less like the kings who

were just stuck in the middle for years yeah if they hadn't given away all their assets then their john wild trade would make sense but unfortunately they did and it is impossible for them to get anybody who could be the second banana for Boogie and uh I don't know I also think the fact that he's shooting threes a little bit now and making them uh the way he plays offensively a team like the Celtics has to think about at this point and I don't know what the price is but it's it's at least this year's Brooklyn pick and it's probably next year's Brooklyn pick would be my guess. I think it's both picks.

And some contract that matches up with them. But I think if I'm Sacramento and that's on the table, I'm taking it. I really am. I'm just taking it right away. If I'm Orlando and I basically pay $0.150 on the dollar for him, you have to think about that too. I haven't really been able to find the perfect trade.

I hate the fact that Boston is the most logical place for him to go because it makes it seem like because I'm because i'm a celtics fan that's what i'm trying to drive but just find me a team that has more assets to make the trade in a way that would make sense for sacramento i mean i guess you could say the lakers would be the other team but would they give up it's true would they give up brandon ingram would they give up the uh the european center and they'd i mean they'd have to give up like two first round i don't even know what what would what would a lakers trade look like for boogie i can't even tell you what it would be you mentioned how the celtics are just the most logical destination i

i went to the the king's reddit forum a couple weeks ago and just posed the question what what do you consider a fair trade for boogie? And obviously Kings fans were not happy with me even bringing up the topic, but the people who did bring up trades, all of them were with the Celtics. So it just has to be the Celtics as, as the best package as well. Cause I mean,

I mentioned the Lakers and someone jumped down my throat saying no chance that they would trade within the conference. And that would make sense. If I were the Kings, I wouldn't want to trade Boogie to the Lakers either. I'd want to trade him to the East, a destination where he would resign. Even if you're the Kings, I don't know if you would necessarily want to trade him to Orlando if you could potentially get more elsewhere. Because look, when he becomes a free agent in 2018 i think the lakers could

potentially be one of the best uh situations for him to go into right by that point who knows what their team will look like well that's another thing if you're trading for boogie you have to make sure you're going to resign them the celtics aren't going to give up two brooklyn picks for him there's a whole culture aspect that a team like the Celtics has worked really carefully to cultivate that his behavior on and off the court has not totally fit in. Now, the weird thing is he's a great guy off the court with the community service he does. I've done podcasts with him. I'm not that that that you're going to learn everything from somebody from that. But it's not like he's an asshole.

You know, I think he might have a competitive issue he might just hate being on a bad team and that might affect what he does but i think if you're a team like the celtics and you saw it last night with yannis there's 12 guys in the league that matter and if you don't have one of those 12 guys you're you're not winning the title and the celtics don't have one of those guys they have have a guy in Isaiah Thomas who every once in a while can get hot and get there, but he can't do it consistently. And you need one of the guys. You just do.

Houston has Harden. Oklahoma City has Westbrook. You need one of those guys. And that's what makes him so interesting and fascinating. And I just can't imagine why they wouldn't trade him. Portland, quickly, we have them at 16 between Sacramento and New York. I thought when they signed Evan Turner that he was going to have the ball in his hands. He doesn't.

They're playing him off the ball, which is exactly what the 2014 Pacers did, and it was a disaster. I don't understand why you would sign him and play him the way they're playing him. And it just seems like they stockpiled a bunch of contracts for some sort of trade that I guess they think is going to happen at some point. Maybe it's like Brooke Lopez. Maybe it's Vucevic. Who knows? But one of the issues, I mean, one of the issues for them is their team isn't playing well.

You know, like Crabb's not playing well. Turner's not playing well turner's not playing well no avonlea i guess is just a whiff is he a cross off i think at this point he's starting to look like it which is disappointing i liked him a fair bit in the draft and he's just he hasn't developed quite a lot at all honestly um because that would have been that would have been their best trade asset to package him yeah if he was like a legitimately promising guy with their pick maybe you get something but uh unfortunately they're gonna have to think about trading mccollum and for a lot of reasons um he has the most value they can't trade lillard i'm not positive you can

win a title if those are your two guards. They have real defense. I mean, they're just terrible defensively. Turner has not helped, but they're starting behind the eight ball already with the undersized backcourt, and then the rest of the team doesn't.

Harkless is really the only guy who can defend anyone. I don't know what they do. And my guess is the solution would be McCollum, but do you even pull the trigger on that right now? What would you do if you ran Portland? It's tough because, you know, if we compare them to Golden State, just the backcourts, Thompson is a terrific defender and McCollum isn't. I think that's the difference between the backcourts in terms of I mean speaking generally

obviously Curry is on another level but Lillard is a stud and McCollum on the offensive end is a study shooting I think 45 percent from three this year he dude has really no weaknesses on the offensive end right but it's just not a great fit they they don't defend the point of the point of attack well at all and I thought like you said earlier, I thought Evan Turner was going to be a guy who would come in and be their Andre Iguodala in

some ways. Just their versatile defender. Their guy who brings the ball up the court more often. But really I think he still could be that, but he needs to just improve as a spot up three point shooter. I don't know when that's going to happen. He's 28. It's not happening. It can happen at some point, but I don't know if it is. It's not happening.

He is who he is. The Celtics figured out how to use him perfectly. And when Portland drafted him, or when Portland signed him, I just assumed they would use him like the Celtics did and they're not. I have a trade that could save this. Evan Turner to Sacramento for Rudy Gay. Hmm. for Rudy Gay hmm Rudy Gay solved their defensive issues though no it's well it basically allows them to get out of the Turner contract

it gives them somebody with some size who can play some small ball for them for Sacramento you know they're chewing a big contract with Turner but at the same time free agents aren't really signing there they always end up getting Sacramento, they're chewing a big contract with Turner. But at the same time, free agents aren't really signing there.

They always end up getting the lower level free agents, like the flalo types. But Turner's somebody who could run their team. He could basically play point forward. He doesn't have to guard the other team's point guard, but he could have the ball in his hands. We saw him do that in Boston for two years. He's good at it. It's not not perfect for everybody but against most teams he's somebody that he can he knows how to feed people the ball if somebody's hot he'll get it to them he can throw in two passes to boogie i think that would be a good team for both teams and if i was portland

i would be thinking about a trade like that over cutting the cord on the McCollum-Lillard era. Because, you know, NBA history says you can compete with two undersized guards like this. Like Phoenix did it with Hornacek and KJ way back when. You just have to have the right team around them. Right now they don't. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to go to the top half of the week. Quick break to talk about Indochino. Every man looks better in a suit.

So why get one of those generic off the rack ones? Try Indochino. It's one of the largest made to measure menswear brands. Let them help you find great fitting, high quality suits and shirts at an incredible price. Here's how it works. Visit Indochino.com or drop by one of their nine North American showrooms you can pick from hundreds of fabrics and patterns

choose customizations, submit your body measurements then kick back, relax and get ready to step into the best, most stylish suit you've ever worn in just four weeks this week my listeners can get any premium Indochino suit for just $389 at Indochino.com as long as you enter

BS at checkout, that's Indochino Icom. As long as you enter BS at checkout, that's Indochino, I-N-D-O-C-H-I-N-O.com. 50% off the regular price for a made-to-measure premium suit. Shipping is free. Again, promo code BS, Indochino.com. Get ready to look like a million bucks. Quick break to talk about Distilled.

They have revolutionized the fashion industry with their timeless luxury grade denim. You get jeans that would normally cost you hundreds starting at just $75. They eliminate excessive marcos by refusing to work with middlemen. They ship directly to you for free. They guarantee the fit. They'll send you a new pair until they're perfect. They're built to last. They will be a staple in your closet for years. Not just the fit. They'll send you a new pair until they're perfect. They're built to last. They will be a staple in your closet for years. Not just the jeans. That also goes for their new

line of jackets. Whether you're after classic denim or a stylish bomber jacket, you can expect the same level of quality and convenience. Go to distilled.com slash BS right now and get $10 off your first order. DSTLD.com slash BS for $10 off right now. All right, we're back. There is no way we're getting through these last 14 teams. So we might just do the next six and then skip through the last eight and we'll save them for two weeks from now.

We'll do like a big ass coverage of the eight contenders. But this next tier has four teams. It's the half-heartedly lingering group. Memphis, we had at number 11, but now Mike Conley's out indefinitely, so we're moving them back. So let's have Memphis 14, Indiana 13, Charlotte 12, and Chicago 11.

Charlotte crashed back to earth pretty fast after everybody got excited for them because Kemba Walker was playing out of his mind for two weeks. I don't love any of these teams. All of them are flawed in some way. I would say Chicago has the best chance to be something just because of the way Jimmy Butler's playing, and I do like the pieces. The pieces don't totally fit.

They whiffed on Rondo. Out of those four teams, who is your favorite? In some ways, it's just Charlotte. I just think the way they grind on both ends of the floor. Kemba Walker is playing out of his mind. And Zeller does so many little things well on the floor. He's really fun to watch for them. I don't love the Chicago mix.

I love Jimmy Butler, but I don't know if love jimmy butler but i don't know if he's going to sustain his 42 from three i mean i just don't see how that's sustainable for him indiana doesn't play enough defense for me and memphis without mike conley it's uh it's really disappointing for them because i don't see how andrew harrison and as much as i like wade baldwin i don't think those two are going to be able to keep them afloat with this upcoming schedule they have. Yeah, and this was the fair with Memphis that they put a ton of money into Conley and Gasol and Chandler Parsons. Now, Conley has not had an injury history, but Gasol is a very large man who broke his foot last year.

Chandler Parsons, to me, that was the riskiest contract anyone did last year. Because who knows? The guy had microfracture surgery. And Dallas, who spent a ton of time with them, at some point just looked at it and said, No, we're running from this. So I hate to bring this up. Sorry to cover your ears, Celtics haters. But the Celtics do have their pick in 2019.

And it's unprotected in 2018. I think they get it. They can potentially get it a year before that. But this is a team in the West that I would be nervous if I was a Grizzlies fan. I know Chris Vernon, who hosts the Ringer NBA show, I'm sure he has a million thoughts on this, but the Conley injury doesn't help.

Would you throw the season away if you're Memphis at this point? I guess you can't because you have all these veterans. You're not going to tank. What do you do? It's hard. I think they have to try to remain competitive just because of all the money they have committed to these guys I don't know if they have much of a choice unless suddenly they just said

they pulled the plug and they decided to rebuild but at the same time man that that that's that call the injury just came at the worst time for them because I really liked the way they were playing with him I really did they surprised me I didn't I still didn't think they would be that good of a team and I didn't think

Marc Gasol would come back and be as good as he is this early me neither and i and it just came at the worst i was shocked by marcuso and the reality is like that you know it's alan and zebo and parsons like these these are all guys that you would have wanted three years ago not now which is always a dangerous sign for a team uh and then i really like dave yeager and i thought i thought there would be a coaching drop off and there hasn't been but it's a tough division to lose your leader and your and your your one creator on the perimeter for who knows what did they say six weeks weeks? Maybe more? Six weeks. Yeah. Ugh.

I mean, I don't think they're going to make the playoffs. I don't think they can survive it. I think the West is... The West is too good. I just think the West is too good, right? Somebody's going to grab that spot. Does this open the door for one of the young teams? Yeah, maybe the Lakers slip in. Maybe the Nuggets slip in.

I'm looking at the schedule right now. One of those teams definitely could. I mean, I'm sorry. The standings. Memphis was in the four spot right now at 11-7. Taping this on a Wednesday. Portland is 9-10 in the eighth spot.

The Lakers are 9-10. Denver is 7-10. So those spot. The Lakers are 9-10. Denver is 7-10. So those teams are only a couple losses back from Memphis in the loss column. That'd be interesting. Charlotte. I don't know. The Marvin Williams. Mike Tate just snickered.

Marvin Williams finally died. Michaelate just snickered. Marvin Williams finally died. Michael K. Gilchrist, ugh. I don't, ugh. Yes. You know that K. Gilchrist guy? Tall, Tony Allen? Listen, I was on the bandwagon for a while, but I don't know if you can,

I don't know in the modern NBA when everybody's jacking threes and all this stuff. It's just really hard to win with a guy who can't shoot. You know, that guy's got to be amazing on the other end. Zeller's been surprising. Kaminsky's been sneaky. But, you know, it's certainly not a threatening team. And Kemba, this happens every year where somebody kind of plays out of their mind for the first month,

and we get all excited about it, and then they kind of gradually drift back to work, back to the level that they should be as it goes along. I'm not convinced Kemba's a 25-point-a-game, 40% three-point shooter guy. Indiana, though, is the team that, is another team I think I just whiffed on because Monte looks like he's on the wrong side of the mountain.

So does Al Jefferson. They miss George Hill more than I think we thought. I'm not seeing it. What are you seeing with Indiana? I agree. I thought they would be a little bit better. I did have concerns about them especially in the defensive end of the floor um but i'm curious about with indiana and this is

kind of looking a little bit far ahead but if they continue struggling and if they miss the playoffs and they could slip in next summer if you're them and paul george is going to be a free agent in 2018 i wonder what they do i mean obviously they want to keep him and try to sign free agents but i wonder if they would consider moving him for just this ridiculous trade package and just just do a fast start rebuild building around miles turner um because they they have a hard mix i think right now i don't yeah i don't love their team and i i didn't like what they did this summer, honestly. I prefer George Hill over Jeff Teague.

Losing Mahini hurts their defense, and bringing Al Jefferson obviously doesn't help their defense. I just don't love their mix, and I'm really curious to see what their long-term plans are. So they're playing Monte Ellis 33.4 minutes a game, and he's putting up 10 a night, and he can't shoot threes, and he doesn't play defense.

So that's a problem. Then they have Stuckey, who's missed 10 games, but he's playing 19 a night. He's putting up eight a game. Same issues as Ellis. And then Jefferson's, when you're a big guy who's a low post guy and you're shooting 46%

that's a red flag and a half before I give up on them or before I even consider the Paul George trade to me it's like I would just stop playing Ellis and I would redistribute the minutes and try to figure out that part of it because when I watch them

it feels like the right guys aren't playing. And the wrong guys are playing too much. So until they kind of recalibrate, I'm not going to give up on them. But I've been really disappointed in them. Chicago, too early to say on them. But the one thing I think we can say pretty definitively is that Rondo just looks like he might be done as, as an impact starter.

I don't see it anymore. And he can't shoot. He doesn't really fit in with where the league went athletically. He's not exactly the same defensively. He comes and goes and mostly goes. And, and it reminds me a little bit of Joe keem noah where it's just he looks the same but then when you watch him play he's not the same what do you see

oh no absolutely bill i i agree it's disappointing in some ways because you know rondo has the ability to defend i think he still has the ability to defend deep down inside um the way i look at him it's like the way he defends lazily defends he does his reach around move where he lets the guy go by and he tries to poke the ball away it's as if he still thinks he's a superstar on the offensive end of the floor and he thinks it's okay if he puts in the minimum effort on defense and it's just disappointing because he has it i think he can still defend it's just I don't know if he has the self-realization that he is that guy yet. And even despite saying that, it's not like he's still necessarily the type of point guard you want on your roster in today's NBA.

Because he can't shoot and because he needs the ball in his hands all the time in order to be effective. So I understood why they signed him. Because they want to try to build a winning team. And maybe you wouldn't have gotten Wade if you didn't get Rondo. I don't know about that for sure. But, I mean, they need to find a way to either move on from him at some point during the year or just cut him loose in the summer. Because I like some of the other young players on their roster.

And I think Denzel Valentine, at some point, maybe during the season he he starts figuring it out and you see an elevated role for him because i think he's a guy who theoretically is a great fit for their offense because he's a terrific shooter yeah he's a great decision maker not not a good defender but he does so many little things well that i think he's someone who would be a really good fit next to wade and butler yeah i feel even more like Indiana. It's like I'm not going to totally judge them yet because I don't feel like they're playing the right guys. I feel even more strongly about that with Chicago

because I like a lot of their guys. It's just the 30 minutes a game that Rondo is giving them is just not good enough. And, you know, they have some other redundancy issues and things like that. But, you know, it's funny. Theyancy issues and things like that, but you know what's funny? They only shoot 21 threes a game, which 10 years ago would have been a shitload,

and now is just completely out of whack with everything. I mean, Houston's shooting 37 threes a game, which is just staggering. I just never imagined in my life that an NBA team would take 37 threes a game. The Celtics, I think, are at 35. But the team that Chicago built, even though I like a lot of the players, doesn't totally make sense with where the league is.

I do think they won. We should give them credit. I think they won the Derrick Rose trade. I think that was a good trade for them. I like Lopez. I agree. And even worst case scenario, you can just spin Lopez to somewhere else. But I would much rather have him and do the flyer with Rondo

than another year at Derrick Rose. It would be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm not a Hoiberg fan. I'm not sure he's helping with a lot of this stuff either, the Rondo-Hoiberg thing. If you had to pick out of those four teams one of them to become a second half contender indiana charlotte chicago or memphis which one would you pick um i mean i said earlier right now i like charlotte but for contender in the

second half i'd probably go with indiana just because of paul jords he's they have the best player of those four teams and miles turner could obviously continue to develop i would pick chicago but i don't feel good about any of them all right next here the semi sleepers utah the darling of the hipster basketball community and danny chow at number 10 in atlanta at number nine both of these teams have something in common when you watch them play a team like golden State, which I watched Monday night, I watched Atlanta versus Golden State. And not only will they hang, but they'll have the lead with like 10 minutes to go.

And you go, oh, wow, these guys. And then they'll have just a four minute stretch and all of a sudden they're down four. They can hang with the good teams. They could get to the second round of the playoffs, but they're missing something. And Utah's, what they're missing is pretty obvious. Like they don't have the go-to guy.

George Hill is just way too go-to guy involved. Defensively, they're excellent. And all the metrics, and that's why when they started out slow, all the metrics everybody was writing about, about how the metrics favored them long term. Like, watch Utah, watch Utah come on. Atlanta, I don't see a lot of growth potential in them. I'm not a Dwight fan.

I do think at some point he'll check out or start doing Dwight stuff. He's already started a little bit in that crazy elbow. Who do you elbow Zeller um I so I would bet even though we have Atlanta over Utah I think long-term Utah might be a better bet for to do postseason damage what do you think yeah I think you said it Bill the Jazz are 10th right now in our par rankings, but if they were a stock, I would be heavily, heavily investing into them. They have fourth best net rating in the NBA, and that's despite George Hill and Gordon Hayward playing only five healthy games together.

That's despite Derek Favors being out indefinitely right now. That's despite Boris Diaw not being 100% healthy. With Hayward and Hill, they're outscoring teams by 25 points for 100 possessions. They're undefeated in the five games they've played together. I think they're way better than people think, and that's right now, despite their 11-8 record, I believe. I think they're built just to beat different types of teams with unique lineups. They can play small, and once Favors comes back, they can play big.

They can do the thing with boris diaw and put him at the four and use him more as a facilitator they can do the same thing with trey lyles and these guys are young rodney hood trey lyles rudy gobert still only 24 years old these guys could develop and get better over the course of the season and i think i think by the end of the year i don't think they'll be a contender like the Clippers or the Spurs, but I think they could be like a pseudo contender. We might put them in the next year by the end of the year just because I love their mix. And you're right, they are missing the superstar, but they have a really, really nice foundation.

Or they could have the destiny of the metrics say they should have won 52 games, but they only won 44, which is what I would bet on if I do this, just because I think they're going to have issues at the end of games. Now, last night they showed something. They played Houston. They're very good defensively. They have guys who can protect the rim.

And I saw that matchup on the board, and I'm like, hmm, this might be a bad matchup for Houston. You know, Utah's kind of built to make lifeup for Houston. You know, this is Utah's kind of built to make life difficult for Harden and to challenge them on the perimeter, challenge them on the rim. And that's how it played out. Harden didn't have a good game. Houston, who we have in the pseudo contenders group is all offense, not as good defense, but if you, if you take out Harden, you take out the team. And I thought that was a dangerous game for Houston if they're thinking about themselves

as maybe doing some damage because I think the right kind of defensive team can take out Harden the same way with Oklahoma City. If you take out Westbrook enough, they don't really have a plan B. So I thought that was a bad sign for Houston. I thought it was a good sign for Utah that defensively that they could just shut a team down like that. With

Atlanta, you know, Millsap is still Millsap. Schroeder has done pretty well. You like that, Joe? You like my German pronunciation? They have the shooters, but they're still like they're missing that one extra guy and I don't know how they get it maybe they I don't know I don't know

they need one more dude for lack of a better word one more oomph guy Muscala's been pretty good off the bench but they need one more guy I would feel better if they if

especially when you watch them in crunch time just one more impact guy and it's you know you could say that about 20 teams but they feel like about a half of a guy short what do you think about them i their starting lineup just hasn't been nearly as good as i expected and i know that's despite losing al horford and replacing him with dwight and at first it kind of worked but i think we we're starting to see what it might actually be. And the way they've changed their offense is last year,

according to Synergy Sports, they used post-ups the fifth least amount of times in the NBA. This year it's the ninth most, and that's mostly because of Dwight. Dwight still hasn't, I guess he hasn't embraced being a pick-and-roll guy yet. They're still feeding him posts, guess he hasn't embraced being a pick and roll guy yet. They're still feeding him posts and he hasn't been efficient. He's only scoring 0.7 points per possession on the post, which is not good. It's not like he's a great passer out of the post either. And I think that's the primary reason why, not the only reason why,

but the big reason why they have the sixth worst offensive rating in the league and why their starting lineup is getting outscored virtually every game. I think really the Dwight thing might not be working out quite as much as they had hoped it would. Yeah, and what's interesting is he's kind of embraced who he is, which is like, I need more post-ups. He's only shooting nine times a game, which is what he should have been the last couple years. But when you're playing hard away for 20 minutes, and Korver, who's on the other side of the mountain,

I think we can both agree, he's playing 28 minutes. Kent Bazemore's playing 27 minutes. Seth Filosha's playing 24 minutes. None of those guys can create their own shot. They always have two guys out there in the perimeter who can't really create anything. So it's always up to Schroeder. It's true.

Their backup point guard is this guy, Malcolm Delaney, who I think went to Virginia Tech. I had to look him up when I saw Delaney, the first time I saw him out there. I was like, who's this guy? So they need one more something if they're going to be taken seriously. And I don't know how they get it. They don't have a ton of trade assets i i think the they didn't really have a choice in the horford thing and the howard thing was a very good savage and worst case scenario yeah um maybe you can move him down the road to a team that needs a big man but uh you know they they're just a step short they're

very well coached and you watch them play golden state and you know they curry didn't play well in that game but golden state it's not like golden state was mailing it in um they're just a step short so yeah i would bet on utah too all right we're gonna zoom through the last eight teams because um we'll save them for another podcast and then frankly they deserve their own podcast but with the pseudo contenders houston at eight oklahoma city at seven boston at six toronto at five all of them flawed all of them fascinating uh all of them there's some sort of excuse for why they are where they are i think boston really hard to to judge them when Horford and Crowder just haven't played enough games yet. They also had a tougher schedule than I think people realized.

Toronto, the DeRozan thing just threw everybody off. He just was on fire for three weeks. That's not who they're eventually going to be, so it's hard to talk about that. But we'll save all of these for a podcast two weeks from now because they're all worthy of discussion. The contenders, number four Clippers, number three San Antonio. The Clippers started off great, looked awesome.

Now they're fading. Now guys are griping that they've lost the Eye of the Tiger, D.I.J. They lost a terrible game in Brooklyn last night. San Antonio, I think, is a safer bet on the infrastructure. You would bet, if you had to bet your life on it, you would bet on San Antonio over the Clippers right now, right? Yes, I would. Okay, me too.

So we'll save that for another time. But we can have a quick argument as we head out on this podcast for the last two teams. The teams that are probably headed for a trilogy in the finals, Golden State and Cleveland. I had Cleveland won. You had Golden State won. Cleveland got their asses kicked last night by Milwaukee,

so I think you won that one. I think Golden State is the number one. And yet, in the finals, I don't know. I think I would still pick Cleveland. Gun to the head, who would you pick right now for the finals eight months from now you have to pick the winner who would you pick i'm going with golden state okay going with golden state and what's the reason so i i had an interesting discussion with a writer a couple weeks back and and he said to me do you think golden state needs a rim protector and i

was like yeah i think you know they would benefit from definitely trading for one he's like no no no i mean do they need a rim protector to beat the cavaliers in the finals and i i don't think the answer is necessarily yes i think i think that they can beat cleveland with the group that they have right now i think we're starting to see this past week or so, they had that 149-point game against the Lakers of what they're truly capable of when their mix is really clicking, when these guys are really playing together at the level that they can. Because, look, I know they added Kevin Durant, but these guys still did need to learn how to play together. june i think that they could be clicking on a level higher than what we're seeing right now and what we're seeing right now is a team that's outscoring teams by 13 points per uh per 100 possessions it's ridiculous what they're doing um they're just whipping the ball around the court like they always do they're starting to defend at a higher level um i just i just if i'm predicting their progression over the course of the year i I think they're going to get better.

Cleveland will too. But I just think Golden State's mix is just unreal. Yeah, and we saw the shots were redistributed. We knew Draymond was going to lose some shots he did. We knew Clay was going to lose some shots he did. We knew Curry might lose one or two threes a game. He did. What we didn't know was whether the bench was going to be remotely what it was last year. And last year they did have the Boga-Dizzili combo, and they really missed Boga at those last three finals games.

They had a phenomenal season from Livingston, who hasn't really looked like himself yet. But Ian Clark, who said this last summer, I would have signed him. When you look at some of the guys that got signed, the fact that nobody snapped up, Ian Clark was crazy. That guy was in big games last year, but he's played pretty well. Iguodala, I don't want to panic about yet, but he's looked a little long in the tooth

these first four weeks, and he's not shooting the ball that well. And to me, that is the only minor red flag I've seen so far when I think about a Cleveland series because at some point they're going to have to figure out how to defend LeBron James. And if he is at a different point of his career than he was last year, that would be the red flag for me.

What do you see from Iguodala? I agree, Bill. Iguodala hasn't looked the same defensively in some ways i wonder is he saving himself is he is he conserving energy it's like in hockey playoff games just are played at a different level the intensity the the the aggressiveness i wonder if maybe iguodala was just waiting for that time in the playoffs to really ramp it up. Because look, you're right. What is he, 32 years old right now? A lot of miles. A lot of miles in that O'Donnell. Yeah, a lot of miles.

Yep. Two long playoff runs in a row as well. That all adds up. And Livingston has just not played as much as he did last year. And he's not being used quite the same way. And I almost wonder, because they have Durant and because they have another guy who can just handle the ball

and take pressure off Curry, maybe they don't need him like they did last year. And if they did want to make a trade, he's really the only candidate. I think he makes like $6 million. They could stack a couple other salaries to get to somebody in double figures. But if they wanted to make a move, which I don't think they do, but he's somebody that I just don't think he's as valuable to them as he was a year ago.

The big difference with Cleveland, other than that LeBron, is doing what we thought he was going to do. He's scaled it back a notch. He's trying to get close to a triple-double every night, and he's doing more deferring to Kyrie and Kevin Love. But Love has been outstanding, and you could feel it coming all summer from the stories, from the fact that he was talking about how he couldn't work out a year ago

and he worked out all summer, and he lost too much weight last year. He got some of it back. He's shooting the three great. They have three outstanding offensive players, and Golden State has three outstanding offensive players. Cleveland does not have a Draymond. But, man, it's funny. The trilogy, this is really shaping up as this could be the best version

of the trilogy. This really might be the best version of these three teams from the last couple years, which is crazy. I'm shocked every time Cleveland loses. i couldn't believe they lost last night you know i i do think both of these teams have a chance to be high 60s for wins and uh and there's just it's those two in everyone else and that's just the way it is and i think that's okay as i if it is the if it is a trilogy i'm really looking forward to it because like you said billy's two teams are better than they have and one note you said

cleveland doesn't have a dream on green i don't know if golden state has a tristan thompson on their team right now they the one of the things i like about cleveland is they have answers for a lot of different things you know and cheney fries played great for them this year but they go big they go small they they're they're prepared for just about any scenario and they have LeBron and you know, Golden State, I, I don't know if there's flexible and maybe they'll address that down the road, but I do feel like they were more flexible last year. Their ceiling's higher this year because Durant's incredible and it's been really thrilling to watch him playing with great players every night and unleash a different part of his game that we knew was in there.

But the movement and stuff has been awesome for them. All right, so we'll do a pod in two weeks where we'll go into detail about those eight teams. But I think we did a good job covering the state of the league right now in the December. I don't have any regrets. Do you? No, I'm happy with the bill. That was good. I think these teams do deserve their own pod.

So our biggest disagreement was Milwaukee versus Milwaukee playoffs versus lottery. I think they should go for it. I think they can get like a four seed. Ride Giannis. Ride the Greek. Get rid of the Greek freak. He's now the Greek. He Giannis. Ride the Greek. Get rid of the Greek freak. He's now the Greek. He's more dangerous

as the Greek. Kevin O'Connor, what do you have coming later this week on The Ringer? Right now, mostly working on something for next week.

Something on a little bit on footwork on the NBA. Oh, good. Okay. All right. Well, read him on The Ringer. Thanks for coming on

and listen to him on The Ringer NBA show as well with Chris Vernon. Kevin O'Connor, thank you. All right, that's it for today. We have another podcast coming on Friday, a football podcast. But thanks to SeatGeek. Thanks to Dick's Sporting Goods.

Don't forget to check out sportsmatter.org. Thanks to Simply Safe. And remember to go to theringer.com if you want to read me a new column coming on Thursday. And check out The Ringer Podcast Network. We have Keeping It 1600. We have a whole bunch of Channel 33 pods, Ringer NFL Show, Ringer NBA Show. All kinds of stuff. Check them all out.

Subscribe. Remember to write comments on iTunes. And we'll see you back later this week.