The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 180: Friday Rollin' Trade Deadline Recap With Joe House, Chris Ryan, and Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: February 24, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons brings on Joe House, Chris Ryan, and Kevin O'Connor to discuss Boogie's impact on the Pelicans (8:00), Brandon Ingram's potential (12:00), Paul George vs. Jimmy Butler (18:00), GMs using the trade machine (28:00), the Nerlens Noel trade (34:00), Jrue Holiday's value (44:00), the top players in the 2017 draft (54:00), P.J. Tucker's impact on the Raptors (1:05:00), Finals scenarios (1:09:00), and Andrew Bogut's next destination (1:14:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Download the SeatGeek app today or go right to SeatGeek.com. I got to be honest. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while and you haven't gone to SeatGeek yet, or go right to SeatGeek.com. I got to be honest, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while and you haven't gone to SeatGeek yet, you're hurting my feelings. Not as much as it hurt Chris Ryan's feelings when they traded Neurons Noel yesterday, but almost as much. We're also brought to you by Rocket Mortgage by Quicken Loans. They bring the mortgage process into the 21st century.

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licensed in all 50 states, NMLSconsumeraccess.org, number 3030. Again, quickenloans.com, slash Bill Simmons. And also, we're brought to you by theringer.com. That's where I wrote a post-trade deadline mailbag that at some point is going up today or this weekend. We had a disaster, which we'll talk about in a second with that column,

thanks to my laptop. But I put up a bunch of podcasts this week. We had two BS podcasts, JJ Redick and Ben Thompson from Stratechery. Very happy with those. But then I also went on the Ringer NBA show to talk about the Boogie Cousins trade. I went on the Ringer NFL show to ask Mike Lombardi

what was going to happen with NFL free agency. And I went on Bachelor Party. Six pods in one week. It was a six podcast week, Chris Ryan. That's what the trade deadline does for me. So we have Kevin O'Connor, Chris Ryan,

and my friend Joe house on the line. We're going to do a four man trade deadline podcast. But first Eddie Vedder. Which one of us is Buick and which one of us is Steinero? And then what does that make house? It's a lot of pressure for whoever's Buick. That's the wrong analogy. The proper way to think about this is as a delicious Cubano sandwich. Let's talk about some ingredients.

It's lunchtime out here on the East Coast. Chris Ryan? You ready to roll? We've got your roast pork, your glazed ham, delicious Swiss cheese, and I already know who's going to be the dill pickle. The dill pickle brings it all together And adds that little crunch That's my boy Kevin O'Connor

Kevin O'Connor's the dill pickle here What's going on Joe? We better just make that the start of the podcast That's Joe House Kevin O'Connor from The Ringer Chris Ryan Trade deadline happened Disappointing actual end of the deadline

But for the most part an action packed month Yeah a hell of an actual end of the deadline but for the most part an action-packed month yeah a hell of a early part of the deadline abaca and boogie i mean boogie was a monster trade monster ruined our three-day presidential weekend yeah which i both appreciate and didn't appreciate we did have company at my house one of my wife's good friends and her husband and just was not expecting to be on my iPad for seven straight hours refreshing Twitter. Did you see that coming, Kevin? It kind of just took over the All-Star game. Yeah, that was what I thought.

I mean, like me, I was sitting next to Micah Peters from The Ringer and like, you know, it suddenly became like looking at your phone wondering what Woj was going to bomb next and not watching the game on the floor in front of us. Woj carpet bombed the All-Star game house. He was the only interesting thing about the All-Star game. I know.

You know, the boogie thing overshadowed what would have been the subplot of that All-Star game, which was how bad the All-Star game is. Which is that it sucked? Yeah, well, you know, on the one hand, it's like, who cares? It's the All-Star game. But on the other hand, I don't understand why it has to be terrible. I don't understand why we've just completely given up on defense or any semblance of actual basketball play.

But I guess that's a story for another time. You were there. It was horrible, right? I mean, I thought all three nights were kind of horrible, really, in terms of the product on the floor. I like Steve Kerr's idea. There needs to be some incentive for the players, whether it's charity or something like that,

that incentivizes the players to play defense because it's not fun at this point right now what would you do chris ryan i i can't think of anything you would do unless you were actually going to make it a like a worthwhile thing for for the players like i unless you financially incentivize it i don't really know why would you go out there and you like risk twisting an ankle i was thinking you you make it four quarters. Each quarter is a fresh start. To win the quarter. And every quarter is worth like $5 million for this game.

Yeah, it's almost like skin. And maybe it rolls over if it's a tie. And it's got to be, the answer has to be better than what we witnessed. It's too bad because I feel like until about 91, 92, the guys actually tried in the All-Star game and it meant something. And it really meant like who was on the court at the end of the games and things like that. Anyway, Boogie Cousins, we've had a few days.

The best theories I've heard about what happened on Sunday, one was that the trade was done before the All-Star game and the NBA told them we can't announce it until after you're not ruined in the All-Star game, which I actually actually do you believe that one i mean boogie certainly doesn't believe that because that was he found out about that at the locker after the game so he didn't have any idea that was a super genuine reaction but what if the teams agreed before the all well vladi suggests otherwise because vladi said he had a better deal two days prior to sunday that he didn't take it he needed to take what he could get. Do you believe that story?

I know generally the NBA likes to wait to hold trade calls on Mondays, right? So I do buy into that, but it did seem like, you know, with the timing of everything, that they were still looking for better offers out there, despite the fact that Vivek ran that D-Day, obviously loved Buddy Heal, and that's the guy he wanted. Hass, what do you think? The report that I saw suggested that they had a better deal in place with New Orleans, that the deal got worse, and that the culprit in terms of the deal getting worse was DeMarcus' agent,

who was trying to scuttle the thing by any means necessary so they could get to the summer and try and get Boogie that mega max. Yeah, he said he wouldn't re-sign with anybody who traded for him. That was a Rick Buecher report. I still feel like I keep looking at the Lakers and how that all played out. And I know for a fact, because I've talked to people, that Mitch Kupchak was trying to trade for Boogie that whole weekend, and then all of a sudden, you and then he's gone so i i always i've been wondering

was there a laker trade that he wanted to do that then genie bus like called magic was like magic we're about to do this trade what should we do and he's like that's great and then he pulled a power or was there a was there a laker trade that he didn't want to do that magic said that's crazy we should have done that yeah because boogie is i mean when you look at the legacy of the lakers i mean they're just always defined by having a great center right yes and that this makes sense so the fact that maybe he didn't want to include ingram or whatever it was that he didn't want to include we don't know i could see that being more than cup check being like i want to do this deal and genie and magic saying like no we have to keep

ingram but i but they didn't have their-round pick is the part I don't get. It's not a guaranteed pick. That's the issue for them, like, in any trade. I know Jake Fisher from Sports Illustrated reported that the Lakers held out Ingram in boogie talks, hoping to use him for Butler or Georgian, which kind of makes sense. But even then, they can't do that until the summer because they don't have their pick right now. How's—do you like Brandon Ingram? He's okay he's still he's so young and still so skinny i feel like he has growing um it's not a perfect comparison to compare him to bradley beal but bradley beal has been growing

since he arrived here in washington he is for this season for the first time looks like he's in the body that he's going to be in for the rest of his professional career. So I give Ingram kind of an incomplete right now. He's not physical enough to compete and be on the floor for 30 minutes a game. What's the deal with Duke guys coming into the league and not looking good? Duke guys? Like, Duke guys coming into the league and not being physically, like, right there yet. Now you're just trying to get Tate more involved in this podcast.

Isn't that true, though? Tate. I heard the rumor because they all go eat at the same place in North Carolina, and it's not good for them. You think? It's like the smoking and drinking. Carlos Boozer came in ready. Well, Carlos Boozer was 30 when he came in.

He was 30, that's right. He came in ready. That place aged Carlos Boozer. But Okafor, Kyrie was dinged up when he came into the league. Jabari. I said this to Chris Vernon on the Ringer NBA show on Monday. If Ingram was the deal breaker, I don't understand that. And you follow the college way more than I do, Kevin.

But I'm not ruling out anything with Ingram. He's definitely, he tries hard. He seems like he could develop into something. I just haven't seen enough of the flashes yet. I think with Ingram, I would have him ranked behind Jason Tatum this year and Josh Jackson, maybe Jonathan Isaac too. I think Ingram's really good. I think he'll be a really good player.

But some of those Kevin Durant comparisons we saw last season, that's just outrageous. Ingram's a really good player. But some of those Kevin Durant comparisons we saw last season, that's just outrageous. Like, Ingram's a solid overall player. I want to send that person a present. And it's not going to smell good. He's tall and skinny like Kevin Durant was. Yeah. I mean, Kevin Durant had one of the greatest college seasons anyone's ever had

and was playing out of position at the five and was carrying their offense and was putting up double doubles every day rick barns yeah it was played for rick barns and like he was insane that season he knew he was a freshman whereas ingram is more solid overall like you know people talk about him as a scorer but he's a pretty good passer too i look at him as kind of like the second guy behind your star so you know for the pacers obviously you're not going to just accept brandon ingram and d'angelo russell on a trade you're going to want that lakers pick if they were able to keep it well i so i think like i want to get back to boogie but just quickly on the pacers like there's no way that they're trading paul george in february when they don't know how the ladder

is going to play out and that's why i was very skeptical with this whole thing. Unless Paul George went to them and said, I'm 26. I want to play for a title this season, which he didn't. You keep them. You wait. You want to see. Like their best case scenario is the Lakers get the first pick and the Celtics get the second pick. And they just play them off each other, you know, for Paul George. And what happens if the Lakers get the fifth pick and the Celtics get the third pick?

Or Brian Colangelo ends up getting the Lakers pick and the Sixers win the lottery themselves and they decide to end the process and go all in, trade those picks for Paul George, even if they aren't sure that he's willing to re-sign there. Go ahead, Chris Ryan. You want to do this now? Yeah, let's do it now. We'll get back to Boogie.

That's great. That would be a great scenario. I don't know if I would actually even, you know, given what people are saying about this draft, would you trade the one and the three for Paul George? Like one and four? The one and the three? One and the four? Would you trade one and four for Paul George?

Yeah, I went through this when I was writing my column. Really took a look at Paul George. Seventh best forward in the league. Right? Mm-hmm. He can't make the all-NBA team this year because there's six forwards better than him. He's 26. He's like a 43% shooter.

He's a 22-6-3 every game. He's a great defensive player. I wouldn't say he's the best, but he's on the level below Kawhi. And he can fit in with whatever you want to do. Yeah, I like the fact that he plays off the ball. He's very good. He went to war with LeBron in two conference finals. It's not like you're getting Kawhi Leonard.

I think there's the eight players that are the best, and then there's guys underneath them, and he's one of the guys underneath them. To that, it's like I wouldn't trade the one. I would trade one of those picks. I would trade one for Paul George. I wouldn't trade one and three. I think that's insane. I'm so through the looking glass on this that i can't one of the things that i wanted

to see yesterday and one of the reasons why the sixers deadline was so disappointing was because i wanted if you were going to trade guys like nerlens and jaleel with those picks i wanted them to be part of a package for a superstar yeah i don't want to just give away two top five draft picks in the best draft we've seen in a long time for what you're saying, a guy who's basically an A-. You're hoping that you get an A-plus in that draft.

That's the whole point of going through these years of accruing these picks. Hass, what do you think? I think of it from the Pacers' point of view. They made the calculus that there's a no-downside trial balloon to go ahead and floating out there the possibility that George could be available for the offer just to see if something crazy materialized because we have incontrovertible proof that the folks running these teams are

effing out of their minds. So if somebody wanted to make an unbelievable, crazy offer, why not see if that comes out? But the right thing to do for the Pacers is exactly what you said at the outset of this, which is just to tight until the lottery and see what the picks actually turn into for the teams that have picks as assets. Kevin, you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that the Paul George trial balloon stuff was more of an ownership thing and Larry Bird was more like, no effing way.

I think for them, it's similar to what Joe just said, wait to see if someone blows them away because at this point, there's no reason to rush into a deal right because i don't i think teams might feel the same way about paul george like as bill mentioned earlier like i look at george and i'm like how does this guy not score 28 points per game and i think the key thing is is because he doesn't get to the free throw line like he can

shoot from outside he can create his own shot but the one thing he can't do at like a super high level is draw fouls at will he can't get to the rack. And that's the key ingredient for a lot of superstars. And maybe that's something he just needs to commit himself to, but he hasn't shown it through over the course of his career, except for short flashes where he opens up the year a couple years ago, averaging 29 a game. That's where we saw the Paul George I think everybody thinks of. But all he's really shown over the course of his career is he's a 23 23 point per game guy which isn't what you would deal the number one pick and

the number four pick and future assets for so he's like like you said chris an a minus right now when you want that a plus if you're dealing all that i mean i wouldn't have traded and look i'm i'm not a homer with trades like i'm pretty i would say I'm almost tough on evaluating the Celtics' own assets, but I wouldn't have traded the Brooklyn pick and Jalen Brown for him. I would have traded the Brooklyn pick and Jay Crowder because then it's like the upgrade from Jay Crowder to Paul George, I could make the finals. That's worth doing, and it's a 50% chance.

It's a 46% chance I'm getting one of those top two anyway. The pick might be the third or fourth pick. Isn't part of the issue with the Celtics, though, is the ticking clock on some of the guys like Crowder? What ticking clock is there? In terms of having to pay them. Yeah, but here's the thing. They're running the process simultaneously with having a top five team.

That's the part that people forget. Like when people look at, you know, the Lakers or Philly, nobody's like, there's a ticking clock. It's like, oh, yeah, they're building something for the next 12 years. Like the Celtics, they can do that with Jalen Brown and this Brooklyn pick and next year's pick while they try to compete. So it's like, all right, if Crowder and Thomas leave, you're still replacing them with guys who are more talented yeah but don't you think that that's kind of the same so what you're talking about is the same schism or same debate that's happening within like the philly like sixers fan community where it's like at what point is enough get like asset accruing done are you done with that and you go for a butler or george or a boogie but when you say go for it though

it would make sense if the price was fair like i don't to pay like 200 cents on the dollar for paul george makes no sense to me because you have the assets but when else are you ever going to get like you have to identify boston's different because boston has boston is a competitive team that's like one player away from being in the finals so The Sixers are years away. Maybe being in the finals. Right. But the Sixers are never going to get Boogie. Who's going to be in the finals, House? Cleveland and Golden State.

What is my team going to possibly do to crack Cleveland and Golden State in the finals? If they traded all these guys for Paul George. Go crack LeBron in the knee, that's what. That's what we should do is get a hitman. Yeah, get a hitman. It's really all about the order of operations for the Celtics because, to your point, if the Celtics were to get Paul George, they're not on Cleveland's level and they're definitely not on Golden State's level.

They're maybe not even on Spurs' level, for that matter. Especially if they gave up Spartan, Bradley, and Crowder in the trade. That's ludicrous. So, in a sense, the way I look at it is, if they wait until summer, they can use their cap space to potentially sign a guy. If you bring in Gordon Hayward and then trade for the star afterwards, that's the best order of operations for the Celtics. Ultimately, there's no guarantees there either. It could turn out that they come up empty this offseason and then the Celtics have a ton of young players in their roster.

And then we're asking the question, should they rebuild? Should they be trading more guys away to get more? That could be the question. But I think it's all about the order of operations here for the celtics and they're banking on that and you also have to look at like just what the history of trades are for good players right like would you trade for chris weber house uh googs googs and three number ones right right three unprotected number ones. Kevin Love fetched Andrew Wiggins. Boogie fetched 40 cents in the dollar.

Dwight Howard fetched a whole bunch of crap that actually looked good for a little while, but then turned out not to be as good. But for the most part, nobody's been able to get 100 cents in the dollar for a guy they were trying to trade. I can't remember any instance of it. Teams wait too long. Yeah, they wait too long or they go too soon. Darren Williams

was probably the best example of a really good haul. Yeah. You know, they got Derek Favors to end up with the third pick. They got another first rounder. Like, that's about as good

as you're going to do. I liked what Denver got from Mello. That core wound up getting, like, being really good regular season team under Carl. But did they get one all-NBA guy for Carmelo? No. Yeah, it's really hard to get

an all-NBA guy for an all-NBA guy. Well, this is what we're talking about with George, too. It's just like, even if you get an all-NBA guy, it still might not be enough. You know what I mean? Denver's had a better record without Mello than Mello's had with the Knicks. Yeah. Put it this way. If the Spurs said we're ready to trade Kawhi, they never would.

I'd be like, all right, Jalen Brown, Brooklyn pick. I might even give you my next Brooklyn pick. I might just go all in, because now I have a guy that could be the best guy in the finals. But Paul George is not. You have the guy that makes LeBron shudder when he sees him come on the floor.

Right, but... So there's the... But, like, I can't believe you're even one, like, you would deal with that deal. Like you would have to do that deal. Isn't the whole point to get Kawhi? Yeah. Yeah. But my point is Paul George is not Kawhi.

I actually think Jimmy, do you think Jimmy Butler is better than Paul George right now as an asset? I do. I do. My hand's up. I do too. I do. I do. My hand's up. I do, too. At the beginning of the season, I would have said Paul George, but Jimmy Butler's made strides this year. I think Jimmy Butler and Isaiah would drive each other crazy.

That's kind of a thing that I agree with. Because they both even need the ball. They're so ball dominant. Butler needs to be convinced to stop pounding the ball. He hasn't had a reason to be convinced of that in Chicago yet. That's how Paul George would have fit in better with the celtics team but i think butler's a better player i agree with that and i actually think butler can still get better whereas i'm not sure what paul george is

going to do at this point to get better unless his three-point shooting because he's not guys don't start going to the line more as they hit their late 20s they are what they are at that point but they can get better shooters with jimmy butler he's improved as a shooter too like over the years he's still only like a 36 spot up three point shooter and that's average but at the same time considering his ability to get to the line i think he more than makes up for it in terms of that and plus butler's a better defender than george too yeah the thing one things i like about butler is he'll be like i got this guy oh Oh, Isaiah Thomas. Let me

guard Isaiah for these last two minutes. Oh, I'm gonna go get LeBron. He'll jump around and do stuff. He's got the dog in him. That's what I like. I like Jimmy Butler. I'm gonna admit something right now. There's like a seven minute stretch yesterday when I thought Jimmy Butler was happening. When the Bulls made that weird Cameron Payne trade.

Yeah, that's what I thought that was about. Rebuild, reboot, blow up. I was thinking that the Paul George stuff was just all a sideshow. That was just a distraction from what was actually happening with Jimmy Butler. Yeah. It's kind of conspiracy theory, partially sourced a little bit too, but I think that Butler was actually the real target there. It was like when Tate was in college.

Tate, when did you get your girlfriend? When did you start dating your girlfriend? years ago four years ago before he met his girlfriend when tate liked a girl and he would go talk to another girl to make the first girl jealous he told me he used to do that all the time it's common technique no but but uh but that's what the celts did they're like we're gonna go over here and talk to paul george paul george can i get you a drink? And Chicago was like, what? They're talking to Paul George. What's going on here?

But it didn't work. I think the thing I'll take away from this deadline is just like, you know, we look at these things and we look at them in vacuums. We put them in the trade machine and we have these arguments. But then you get into the actual personalities of the people running these teams and logic kind of goes out the window. Well, and everyone's more attached to their person. In the Michael Lewis book, there's this great chapter about daryl morey the new michael lewis book and one of the pieces is about when you get too attached to your own players and stripping away like the attachment to just looking at it logically so it was about like the kyle lowry trade which they were going to trade him for this really nice lottery protected pick. And they

were afraid to trade him. And then they flipped it around. And somebody in the room said, well, if we had that pick, would we trade it for Kyle Lowry? And everybody in the room was like, no way, we'd keep the pick. And then they were like, well, why wouldn't we do this trade? And it was just like, they flipped it around. And that exercise, I wonder if that would happen sometimes. Like if the would happen sometimes like if the bulls basically if the bulls had jaylen brown and the brooklyn pick they wouldn't trade it for jimmy butler because they're not going anywhere anyway but if you know if they'd flipped it around correctly i would have done that too i'm fascinated by like the different philosophies each team has

when it comes to decision making because i i think like you know i kind of wrote about this earlier this week with the bulls i think from what i've heard there's disagreement within the front office of what direction to go yeah john paxton's the guy who kind of sees the writing on the wall that they can't build a winning product around jimmy butler whereas gar foreman and ownership is like you know what we're doing pretty well here we're still in the playoffs we get a star player we're good and they like the status can i tell a gar foreman story sure we went to do the Durant podcast two weeks ago. And on the way home, Gar Foreman was on my flight.

And this was at, I'm going to say noon, the day after the Warriors completely annihilated them. As the trade line was getting near. And the flight was about an hour and 20 minutes. And he slept the whole time. And I was like, it all makes sense. Don't they have... He wasn't on... You thought he should be on the emergency plane flight?

I thought he should be at GoGo Air with the 30-minute internet. GoGo Air, like on the trade machine, just coming up with ideas. No. Long nap for Garth. Do you think GMs need the trade machine? I swear to God that happened. What? Did GMs use the trade machine just coming up with ideas. Now, long nap for Gar. Do you think GMs need the trade machine? I swear to God that happened. What? Did GMs use the trade machine?

I think they did. Absolutely. I think Magic's going to need it. I hope not. Magic's like, I got to understand the CBA. I got to take a crash course. It's like, it's not hard. He's just rolling through the Larry Kuhn FAQ.

That's the pick swap, huh? Magic Swaif's like, do you want to go see John Wick 2 today? And Magic's going, I can't. I'm on page 25 of the Larry Kuhn FAQ. House. Yes? You root for one of the worst GMs in the league, Ernie Grunfeld. Are we sure about that?

And yet he's done an okay job the last couple years. Do you want to apologize to Ernie? Well, first of all, I don't root for the GM. I root for a team that happens to have a GM, the longest tenured GM without a title on his resume. So congratulations for that longevity. I have absolutely no problem, and I've said it in each instance lately, where the team has flipped picks into, you know, sort of veteran talent because they have to do something to build around the two young kids,

Beal and Wall, to let them realize their full potential. So no complaints whatsoever with flipping the one pick in 2017 for Bogbo. As long as Bogbo comes and continues to shoot well, the almost bullets still need a backup point guard. I don't know if you guys have watched Trey Burks at all. It's hard to believe he's not in the D-League. I mean, it's really hard to believe when he's still in the NBA. But I'm fine with the B- move that EG made here.

It's even harder to believe that once upon a time I criticized the Trey Burke draft day trade where they got two first runners. Didn't they get two first runners for him? Something around a lot. Shabazz and Dang. That's why it's so hard to judge trades the second they happen, especially the drafts. I thought Trey Burke was going to be good. I actually...

Something happened to him. I think guys lose their confidence sometimes. He's a completely different player than he was in college. We've talked about this before, about college heroes who then are forced into role-player positions, and it's really difficult for them to do it. He was awesome in Michigan. And for point guards, it's hard for them to transition to the NBA sometimes, too. I mean, look at Chris Dunn this year.

He looks terrible. But five years from now, we'll see how he looks. It just takes a long time for guards to develop. If T burke just flat out doesn't look good though anyway right and if chris dunn was good this year that's somebody in sacramento might you know might have they might have jumped on dunn and a lottery pick and the pekovic contract for boogie is a better trade than what they got from new orleans but chris dunn's been so bad you can't and vivek just loved buddy healed anyway and i think that was the difficulty for vladdy divak is finding a deal that could surpass the healed offer in vivek's mind and i think that's why they're asking for outrageous offers

at the same time aren't we all rooting for buddy healed to be really good and for the kings to be and for the kings to have a renaissance and for vivek to be vindicated i think would be one of the most fun outcomes of this season like vivek knew all along he saw something and buddy healed nobody i saw i mean you know what jaeger has done a lot with a little he did he even worked some miracles last year and i i just it might take the pelicans a little while to like figure out how to play boogie and ad together they also have a pretty poor roster you know i was watching them last night that was not encouraging but i know it's the first game but it's just like when you see who they bring out there you're like tim tim frazier okay i had a mailbag question about um whether new orleans

had like a puncher's chance against golden State because they're two big guys. It was like, that's fine. Like those guys could get 70 points and 40 rebounds every playoff game. The rest of their lineup is going to get completely annihilated. It's one of the biggest, their perimeter guys versus Golden State's perimeter guys is one of the biggest misbatches. They just signed Jared Jack. Oh, they just signed Jared Jack, House. He's alive? He's alive. House, remember in college when we played with Al Ciblone

and he would get mad when he didn't get the ball? Yeah, Big Al shouldn't have gotten the ball more than he did. No, he got the ball exactly the right amount. Right, but we all liked him. He would fly off the handle, but it was fine. I think boogie was like the the the kind of negative version of that i think i think he was just every time he needed it i know but i'm getting i remember al would yell at me if i didn't pass it to him i think

that boogie did all that stuff you know on and off the court and i think it wore those guys down and now i think the kings are probably like, this is great. They're just walking around like, oh, man. They just waited too long to do it. With all of that, if you have that knowledge, though, if you know that's the situation, as you approach the season, it's October, why aren't you doing something then when you still have a modicum of leverage? What is the point?

The only logic I can come up with for the Kings' disaster, the utter catastrophe that they've perpetrated upon their fan base, is they wanted to see whether or not they had a legit shot at making the playoffs this year. That's the only rational explanation for why you would go 50 games with Boogie and then run yourself directly into the trade deadline, knowing all along that there's no way you're going to hold on to him into the summer and risk that extension negotiation.

You know what I heard, though? And we're not getting anything for him. I'm sure you've heard this, and I think a couple of people have written about it. It really does seem like there was a 24-hour window where they finally broke vivek down and vex like yeah all right fine try to see what you can get and vlad was just like i'm making it just was like gonna make the deal before he changed his mind yeah i literally think that's

the case it's like like when you go to buy a car and you go in and they don't want to let you leave until you commit to buying the car? That's what Vlade was like. He was probably mobilized. Everyone was like, we have seven hours. He's going to wake up soon from his nap. We got to do this now. All these things where it's like you just wonder what else was happening.

That's what I'm so fascinated by with the Okafor Noel situation. It's just like what did they – Colangelo came out today and said that this was the best deal available that he could make at the time being. Basically, I mean, the understanding being that they had no interest in getting into the restrictive free agent game with Noel. But like, this is just so mind boggling how we wound up not having the clearly better NBA player on our team. Honestly, also, people have been talking about this all day. There's no guarantee that Embiid's going to be able to play more than 45, 50 games a season. So Noel's pretty good Embiid insurance. 45 is high. You could have said 20 there and I would have nodded.

Right. Chris, I have a question for you, though. Why wouldn't they enter the summer and get into the RFA period with Noel? Why not? Great question. I have no idea. I just don't think Colangelo liked him.

Yeah. I just don't think he... Well, the feeling's mutual. Yeah, I know. Well, what are the sixes? And the Philly fan base pays the price. He's going to go nuts in Dallas. Thank you, Brian.

He's going to be so good on Dallas. I was dying for the Celtics to get him. For the season? You could have told me that not only did he vote for Trump, but he had a Trump bumper sticker on his Jeep and was going to rallies and the whole thing and did all this. I would have been like, can he be a screen mom?

It's like Tom Brady? That's fine. I deserve that. But I just think he's going to be really good on the right team. I could see him being, I agree with you. I could see him being awesome on Dallas. It's a great fit.

I would, the thing with Noel that when you watch him and it was just like, clearly he's just on the wrong team, but like so good at screen and rolls. So active around the rim, not just protecting the rim, but like flying out, deflecting balls and around the rim. Awesome in transition. Not just protecting the rim, but flying out, deflecting balls and all this stuff. Great on transition.

I just wanted to see him on a good team, and I kept watching him thinking, man, him and Isaiah Thomas on the high screen. Haas, I would get a boner. I'm not kidding. I understand. Not like a full one, but like a half one. I hate the Celtics, but I understand that boner.

Yeah. And now he's on Dallas. He's going to be doing with Yogi Ferrell. I understand. Not like a full one, but like a half one. I hate the Celtics, but I understand that boner. Yeah. And now he's on Dallas. He's going to be doing with Yogi Ferrell. I know. Who might be good. Where'd you have Yogi Ferrell, Connor? Probably like 40, 50, something like that. Like borderline undrafted.

So, I mean, that's kind of what happened with him. You didn't think he was going to be an all-NBA point guard? Oh, hell no. I don't think Yogi Ferrell thought he was going to be an all-NBA point guard. Tate's really upset about this. What? Tate hates Indiana. It's the he was going to be an all-NBA point guard. Tate's really upset about this. Tate hates Indiana. It's the only thing worse to be a fan of.

I think with Nerland's Noel, right? I think Colangelo should have made a deal before the season. They could have done better then. But I think with Noel, would you really want to pay him close to a max contract with his injury history? And little rumblings about his party habits. You should have taken it to RFA, the restricted free agency. I agree. But maybe there is the other side of it where they're like, you know what, let's just do this now, which they should have done before the season to allow more playing time for

the other guys in their team. That was the whole point of doing it before the year. Get guys like Rashawn Holmes playing time because he's a good player. And I think he could become a contributor contributor to that team and now they open up that time but it's still a bad deal and we still have okafor yeah which is ridiculous they should have traded him before the year two the problem i have with what you just described is who is playing backup for mb they have to have a a replacement level you know above replacement level back you guys are missing replacement level back up for Joel.

You're missing a key part of this. One of the reasons they traded Noel now is to make the team worse. Yes, I know. I'm aware. I'm aware of what he's doing. Yeah. And I'm aware that he is trying kind of, I'm aware that Colangelo is essentially doing what Hinckley would have done, but trying to make it sound like it was in the best short-term interest of the team as well. He's oh now dario gets like a more like you know we got rid of illa so illa sova so that

dario has like a more focus he wanted to get rid of okra for i just feel like this this just reeks of like waiting too long and getting screwed by not having any options and i do think that he wanted to get involved in a three-way for for butler for boston and and he just at that when that collapsed he had nothing else to do would you have traded him for terry rogier minnesota's 30 second round pick which would be like 35 36 in this year's draft that boston has and a conditional 2018 first round pick that's top 22 protected versus the deal you got uh no what if i gave you the 2018 first unprotected yeah my the boston one i guess so terry rogier in the 2018 first i honestly couldn't tell you like what terry rogier does on any given night that. Isn't that more than what Dallas offered?

Yeah, definitely. It just comes down to Justin Anderson versus Terry Rozier. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, is it Justin Anderson versus Terry Rozier? Because the Dallas, that's not going to be, they're not going to get that pick. It's going to be two second rounds. I know. That's also offensive that they came out

and even bothered to try and sell it as a first round pick. Colangelo called a draft compensation today. So they probably read the bash i'm back to bullshit city this is like i i preferred hinky not talking and then talking about like birds and warren buffett then having colangelo give it like every three month update where he's like we're just gonna no no no it's like i i'd rather have the eccentricity than have this. House, this will cheer you up. You spend a lot of money on expensive takeout, I know. I do it.

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What else can we talk about with the trade deadline? You want to talk about the Thunder? Yeah. Dougie McBuckets? Taj Gibson? Man, I got to do it. It's become a BS podcast cliche at this point. Are we sure Doug McDermott's good?

He doesn't do a lot else other than shoot. What does he do? He can shoot the lights out. I think that can help Russell Westbrook for sure. I mean, he might hurt them on the defensive end, but who cares if he's shooting like 45% on wide open spot. So he's Anthony Morrow. He could be Anthony Morrow.

But Anthony Morrow wasn't making shots. Tate and I saw them in person two weeks ago, and on the way home had the what the hell does Doug McDermott do conversation because it just seemed like the Warriors just had somebody stand next to him and that was it. He was completely out of the offense. How about the Bulls trading two first-round draft picks for him a couple years ago? That's a bad deal.

And it ended up being Nurkic and Gary Harris, right? Nurkic isn't great right now, but Gary Harris is a better player than Doug McDermott. But there were other guys that could have even taken an 11-2 in the McDermott spot. Definitely. That's a botch. Bad deal. That was a botch. One of the many bad deals the Bulls have made.

It is possible, though, that all the Bulls, you know, like how long did we hear that Miritic was supposedly this unbelievable guy? Yeah. Yeah, and also...

And now they couldn't even give him one at the trade deadline. I think that that's part of more of an indictment of what's happening in Chicago, that so many of these guys

that have potential... No, not even media, just like... Because isn't Miritich involved in all the Rondo, Butler, Wade infighting? It's like those guys like Butler and Wade don't like Miritich, but Rondo does. When we saw him in person two weeks ago,

I was riveted by how unhappy he seemed. Yeah. Couldn't stop watching it, actually. Should have drafted Rodney Hood. Oh, that could have Rodney Hood in that McDermott draft. Yeah. But, yeah, so for OKC, Taj, that's good. Taj is good.

That's going to help. Even if it was just Taj for Cameron Payne. The thing with Payne, who I think might end up being good, I'm actually a believer, that couldn't have been a worse team for him. You have a guy who's a point guard who's a distributor and needs a bond in his hands. He's playing with Russell Westbrook with the all-time one-man show we've had. What was he going to do?

He can't play with Westbrook. I think the thing with Payne is even if he becomes a good point guard, which I think he will, I like Payne, he could still be the 25th best point guard in the NBA. Right. I don't know if he has that star potential. I think he's one of those guys who you're happy to have on your roster. Good starter, but he's not the guy. I think the Bulls, if they were to trade Butler in this draft,

they should still target a point guard, I think, in this year. Right. It's a load of Jeff. We did this exercise, O'Connor and I, the other day in the office, trying to figure out, because the Pelicans are obviously going to overpay Drew Holiday, and it's going to be a mistake. I'm just telling you right now. It's mid-February.

It's already a bad move. I'm already giving them an F- for it, and it's four months away from happening. And we're trying to figure out, is he in the bottom third of point guards you want? So we went through all the rosters. We'd be like, you know, Boston, we'd rather have isaiah thomas like cleveland would rather have carrie go out down the line what do we have ranked 21st or 22nd something like that i think it was 22 22 maybe it's 22 and a half because we had a couple disagreements in there yeah it was somewhere between 21 and 23 where we had drew holiday ranked on the starting point guard who would you rather rather have list? And he's going to get paid over $20 million.

Yeah, at that point, I would just rather roll the dice with the hope for next year's Yogi Ferrell becoming like stopgap dudes or whatever. That's the inherent problem with the Pelicans too because once they pay Drew Holiday, they lose cap flexibility and it's going to be very difficult for them to add good players to that roster that can contribute. And they need more.

That Boogie, Davis, Holiday is a nice core, but they need more than that. So it seems like what we're getting into now is that last year, this time, there was no cap. There was no such thing as bad deals. We're just going to throw this money at people. We have to make up all these numbers. And now, all of a sudden, I feel like I'm hearing more and more like that's a bad deal this guy's expiring like because there's because the cap's not going up it's gonna level out right but like that's to me drew holiday has saved the pelican season like that he he seems like a he's a really good point

guard when he's healthy and i would i probably would have him higher than where you guys have him but i understand what you're saying he's's like $20 million for Drew Holiday is nuts. We're going to have to go through the list. The hard thing about it is if you bite down on him that way, that's your big three. And what's the ceiling for that big three? House, I'm just having such a hard time. It's like how many good – what's the alternative, right? You've got AD and Boogie.

Don't you have to kind of put as good of a supporting cast around them as possible? You need a psychiatrist. I agree with you, Chris. So you need those assets that you would otherwise devote exclusively to Holiday and try and come up with, turn that into two players or two and a half players. Here's the exercise. Ready? You go running back by committee then.

Here we go. I would. Golden State, Curry. San Antonio, would you rather have Patty Mills at a cheap contract or Drew Holiday? Patty Mills for cheap. Okay, 0 for 2. Kyrie, 0 for 3.

James Harden, 0 for 4. Isaiah Thomas, John Wall, Chris Paul. We're now 0 for 7 for Drew Holiday. Utah Jazz, would you rather have George Hill? What's George Hill make? Is George Hill going to make $20 million? Maybe like a level below that, I think. But pretty close.

I would take George Hill cheaper. Holiday's not crazy for Utah. That's the right kind of situation to me. He could really help that team get over. All right, so let's give it to him. All right, that's the first one. So there's one. Mike Conley, no.

Kyle Lowry, no. Dennis Schroeder at a cheap price or Drew Holiday for $20 million a year? Absolutely Drew Holiday. I agree with that. I'd rather Holiday as well. I'm not a Schroeder guy. Russell Westbro year. Absolutely Drew Holiday. I agree with you. I'd rather Holiday as well. I'm not a shooter guy. Russell Westbrook.

Jeff Teague. Push. I'd rather Holiday. I would rather Holiday also, but it's impossible to know what the Pacers are going to look like. Chicago Bulls, yes. There's four.

Detroit Pistons. Drew Holiday. Five. Giannis. That's not fair. Drew Holiday. Five. Giannis. That's not fair. He's a point guard. Jamal Murray and Moutier or Drew Holiday? Drew Holiday.

For $20 million? Or would you rather have the outside of the Denver guys? House, you're the tiebreaker. Me too. I'd rather have the Denver guys. Okay. Dragic? That's a split. How much is Dragic? He's like 17, 18, and he has another year left. I'd rather have Dragic. Okay. Dragic? That's a split. How much is Dragic? He's like 17, 18 and he has like another year left.

I'd rather have Dragic. Okay. Same. Sacramento. Ty Lawson. True Holiday. Drew Holiday is exactly the kind of player

that Sacramento has. So that's seven teams. Damian Lillard. Kemba Walker. Drew Holiday. No and no. Oh, take care of that Drew Holiday and then Kemba Walker no and no oh take take rather

Drew Holiday than Kemba Walker you made the all-star team do you think the Hornets would be better with Drew Holiday than they are with Kemba Walker stop it Tate

don't listen to Tate he's got an irrational Kemba that's rude stop it uh Knicks yes so there's eight

would you rather have him or Yogi Ferrell and Seth Curry I'd rather have Holiday. Yeah. You'd rather spend $20 million for Drew Holiday than a million dollars on Yogi Ferrell and Seth Curry? That makes Dallas really interesting, right?

Yeah. I'll give it to you guys. Is Dallas using their money on something else? Who's the guy who's getting paid on Dallas? Minnesota? Drew Holiday. Who's the guy who's getting paid on Dallas? Minnesota Drew Holiday I think I'd rather have the combo of the youth I mean if it's one guy

Like if it's Holiday over Rubio I'd take Holiday But if you're also throwing Dunn in there Like Dunn and Rubio I'd rather Dunn and Rubio I would too I'd rather have Dunn and Rubio Okay me too

I'm agreeing with Kevin Philly Drew Holiday How about TJ McConnell, Chris? Orlando? He's the greatest point guard all time. We're just... I'm not...

Go ahead. Orlando, Drew Holiday. Lakers, I'd rather have Russell. I'd rather have the youth. Phoenix. Me too, Russell. Bledsoe. And Brooklyn, you'd rather have Drew Holiday.

So that's more teams than when we did it the last time. So now we have him ranked like 19. Yeah, still, that's not great, though. No, that means he's never going to be an All-Star team ever. I'm bringing a little bit too much Doug Collins to this podcast. Maybe I influenced you guys. Drew's a gamer. The other factor here, though.

I'm into some wars with Drew. The other factor, though, is there's like a bajillion point guards coming in this draft. And some of those guys are going to become stars but that's my point like if if he is not one of the best 12 to 13 point guards in the league i would just rather roll the dice with what's out there and maybe get a draft pick or something or for or another free agent or get somebody in the cheap i think there's a point guard surplus there is a point guard surplus. There is a point guard surplus, but I think that Drew Holiday getting 20 mil is not the most egregious person getting overpaid in the NBA right now. And I don't really,

you know, I mean, I just wish that they would stick to a cap so that we can accrue like a fixed value of players. All right. For the record, Drew Holiday's last four seasons, 34 games,

40 games, 65 games and playing a full year this year. He is basically 15. He missed the first part of the season. He's 15 and 7 every game. He's an okay three-point shooter, not great. He's around 37, 38%. He does not really get to the free throw line.

He does not rebound at an above average rate. I don't know. I don't see it. I would not want to pay him $20 million. I don't want to pay $20 million for somebody who's not an all-star. Are we sure he's going to get that kind of money? He's an excellent defender, though. Okay.

So, I mean, that's something that's hard to look at with the stats. Fair point. I think Holiday, look, the Pelicans are in a spot they have to pay him. I mean, you can't let Drew Holiday walk because they don't have any alternatives. They don't have, who are they going to get? Who's signing him? Well, but the Celtics are in this conundrum, right, a little bit, because people are like, oh, they overpaid Al Horford.

Al Horford does a lot of good things at a really high level. And the stats, I don't think, totally reflect all the stuff he does. Maybe Drew Holiday, maybe the defensive stats. Well, I think that's why if you're the pelicans you're you're better off you know you're in a spot where you have to resign holiday because you don't have alternatives and then you know if you do miss the playoffs and you get lucky you win the lottery and you somehow manage to keep your pick you get another top player too whereas if you do make the playoffs you get no chance and the drop falls off after the top 10 guys because they need more, and they don't have the cap flexibility to add more through free agency, and they probably don't have the asset flexibility to do it through trade.

So the best case scenario is for the Pelicans to somehow get lucky in the lottery and manage to add another guy that they need because that's their only path to getting them. That would only be if the league rigged the lottery, like they did for Derek Rose that year. Yeah. What's a safe basketball in New Orleans? What's the the over under for rigged lotteries do you think three seven and a half oh yeah you get you're higher than me yeah i'm always i'm always suspicious of the lottery

no i don't think they rig it i think that this is like a really like it's a deeply philosophical question yeah like if you we just spent the first part of this podcast talking about how brandon ingram isn't that good. But last year at this time, everybody was freaking out over Brandon Ingram. And I was under the impression that Brandon Ingram was going to come into the league and set it on fire. Based on the way that we were talking about it. Even if you got Fultz, is that a better option for the current Pelicans? Well, that's a totally different level of guy, though.

Okay, but is Fultz coming into the league next year? Ingram wasn't even remotely a sure thing. None of these guys are going to come in next year and light it up, I don't think. I mean, I think for the Pelicans, right? Lonzo's dad is furious right now. Okay, yeah. Sorry, LeVar. I think for the Pelicans, it's like they can't go all in right now

because they don't have the flexibility. So in a sense, they need to manage and have this good team, this 500 team, and then have that young star player that comes up. They wanted that to be Buddy Heald, and obviously they got him for a star. But if they get another guy somehow, being able to get lucky in the lottery and keep that pick, that's the guy in three years when it comes time where Davis' contract is coming up, where you already have Boogie locked up, where then it's like, okay, now we're looking good. We have our big three.

It could be, you know, it could be Fultz. It could be Lonzo Baller. It could be one of the forwards, too, for that matter. Or trade Boogie this summer. Flip the asset. That'd be sneaky. To the Wizards. Pass you still, Wig?

Still in play. I mean, you know, you on the pod earlier this week, I think with Verno, talked about Beal for you were just running through each team and saying whether or not teams would do deals. I would have done Beal for Boogie. I would have done that immediately and I would have done it straight up. No hesitation. Well, because House is

worried about his legs. That's fair. Yeah, I think it's fair! House has had enough of stress fractures with Boogie Beal. But then you'd be worried about Boogie's personality once you have him on your own team. Boogie and Wall and Scotty Brooks? That's a love affair. House's 180 on Scotty Brooks has been one of the highlights of my NBA season.

Look, Scotty Brooks made Kelly Oubre into a real thing. That guy should get Coach of the Year. And Otto Porter. Otto Porter's going to get maxed. It's not my 180, by the way. I had an open mind. You're the one. Before the season started, I gave thehington professional basketball team the benefit of the doubt at exceeding the uh over under and exceeding

the randy whitman uh you know you did feeling and here we are you did you don't think faults could come in and be good right away i mean he could contribute but like you mean like making a super big winning impact where like you're putting him out there at the end of the fourth quarter? I think he can contribute, but I don't know if he'll be a guy where he's really making a big difference at end-of-game situations, which is really when it matters. I'm so impressed by how he can get his shot off. He's good. I feel like he can do that at any level. My thing with him is his shot for real.

I don't think he's as good as 42 42, 43% whatever he is from three. I think he's a good shooter. I don't think he's this great shooter that he is right now. We get tricked by that all the time with these small samples in college where guys play only 30 games and like five shots can make a difference between 36% and 42%. So I like Fultz

but I don't think he's a great shooter like he looks like he's been. You like him, Chris? I love Fultz. He's awesome. What do you think, Cass? I love him, too, but to Kevin's point, the three-point line is also seven feet shorter in college, so it's not really a good indication. He's a good mid-range jumper,

is what that means in the NBA. Least surprising headline on a major sports website right now. Sixers rookie Simmons won't play this season. Yeah, that's a shock. They've got to get some better MRI machines in Philadelphia. I feel like they have a couple too many. Like, oh, wait, this scan's different now.

Be a little more honest with the injury timelines, too. Yeah. House, if I did the trade value column, where would you put Simmons, just out of curiosity? Top. How many guys are we going to put in the column this year? Let's say it was a top 60. 60? I'd put him in 55, 56, something like that. He's inside of it.

All right. Chad Ford just put up his mock draft 3.0. Fultz won Lonzo 2 Josh Jackson 3 no surprises there Malik Mock that's number 4 Philadelphia

Philadelphia I'm fine with that okay yeah Dennis Smith 5 ugh not a fan not a fan either

Jonathan Isaac 6 Jason Tatum 7 to the Sacramento Kings Tate's delighted about that Frank Nitalikina to the Knicks Nitalikina?

how do you say it? I think it's Nitalikina or Tillykina one of those two not sure if he's in a silent the Knicks taking a French guy. I'm sure that'll go great. Laurie Markkinen, number nine to Dallas. I'm a big fan.

All of us like Markkinen. Yeah. It's a good one. Also sounds like the diehard seven villain. Yeah. Like Laurie Markkinen has killed John McClane's family. The brother? Yeah.

De'Aaron Fox, 10th to Sacramento. Can't shoot. Also Sacramento. Can't shoot. Also perfect. Can't shoot. Where would you guys rank Ben Simmons in this draft? Where would you take him? Harry Giles, 11th. I'd put Ben Simmons in the top three.

There is no effing way Harry Giles goes 11th. I think maybe four, three or four. Kevin, what are the odds Harry Giles goes in the top 11? I'm going to go with zero. I think if there's a team where they're thinking to themselves, like we hate everybody after this top group, then maybe you take a shot at them. So he's the Thon maker of this year's draft?

Yeah, sure. I think my question with Harry Giles is, when he was the number one high school recruit, was he as spectacular as we all thought he was? Because he's not a good shooter from the outside, and we know how valuable that is with big men in today's nba uh not a good free throw shooter so it's like good defender can protect the room can switch pick and rolls and he's athletic and he can pass the ball a little bit too but at the same time it's like shooting is really really

really important for big men in today's nba and he hasn't had that skill and he hasn't flashed who are you who are you in love with right now? Tate, Bam's not in Chad's top 30. Do you like Bam in Kentucky? Incomplete. I've only seen flashes. Tate and I like Bam. We're in the bandwagon.

Tate and I are in the top two in the Bam bandwagon. You guys should watch Justin Patton from Creighton I like him a lot really raw big man can do a lot of things well can shoot the ball Kevin loved Brogdon last year yeah I'm high on Brogdon

give me a couple other sleepers to check out I talked to Brogdon at the combine last year you did? how are you not ranked in the top 25 for everybody he's like I don't know either I'm going to come in right away and make an impact. Because I know my role. I know what I'm good at.

I'm not going to step outside of that. And that's exactly what we've seen. But other sleepers this year? Yeah. I mean, I still love OG Ananobi from Indiana. And if he were to come out, despite the torn ACL, he's a guy I'd gamble on in the middle of the first round, despite that. Because, look, I have a type where I always fall in love with these forwards who are super athletic and can defend but can't shoot yeah and obi kind of falls into that category you can teach him to shoot well the teams

can teach him yeah i just think everything you hear about him is he's a good kid like a hard worker so those are two perfect ingredients for someone to to improve their shot but at the same time not every team has a shooting coach how How are you feeling about Lonzo right now? I'm loving Lonzo, man. I think his basketball IQ is just unbelievable. The only flaw is his dad and how he talks him up as the next better than Stephen Curry. Would you take Lonzo or Fultz if you were the Celtics and you got the

number one pick? If I were the Celtics, I think I'd rather Fultz just because I think his ability to, I just think he's more versatile on both ends of the floor. I think you can use him in either role, whereas Lonzo Ball – I mean, in both situations, though, really, how does that impact Isaiah Thomas? Like, would he be happy with, like, a team drafting a point guard? I think Lonzo makes more sense for the Celtics if you're going to build around Isaiah.

Because he's a better shooter? Well, better shooter, but also can go anywhere. You just tell him to do whatever. Lonzo, go over there. Lonzo, handle the ball. Lonzo, play small forward. Like, he'll do anything. What was your question, Al?

I have a question for Kevin about Lonzo's shooting stroke, and I'm going to make a ridiculous analogy here. I'm curious about it. It feels like it might be really susceptible to being defended at the NBA in a way that college can't defend it. And the stupid analogy is I think about dumb Tim Tebow's throwing motion and how long it took him to throw a pass in the NFL and why that ultimately defeated his success.

And I worry about Lonzo with that pocket, that shoulder pocket shooting style and whether he can be sort of groomed out of that. So with Lonzo Ball, like we talked about earlier with Fultz, I don't think Fultz is actually like a 42% three-point shooter. I kind of feel the same way about Lonzo Ball. But with that said, I feel really good about Lonzo Ball being like a great shooter off the catch i think despite his weird funky mechanics that slingshot i think he'll be a good shooter off the catch my concern and this is kind of like where i have my hang up with him is i don't think he can create his shot off the dribble with that weird with those weird

mechanics right you watch him he has he has this weird like look closely like next time you watch him play when he pulls up from mid-range or three there's this weird pause like as he stops his dribble yeah as he stops his dribble he adjusts the ball on his hands and like he doesn't go straight up in his shot and that's what like separates the steve nash's and the stephen curry's of the world like they can create their dribble and create space but they also just fire straight into their shot, and Ball isn't at that level. I agree. Let's ask Ball's dad for his comments.

Don't you dare talk about my son like that, Kevin! He's the best player since Steph Curry! Just to make a little tweak, LeVar, to your son's mechanics, and he'll be great. Yeah, I love Lonzo. Yeah, he's so fun. I just think when your IQ is that high on a basketball court, you're going to be fine. He'll figure it out.

He'll figure it out. And that's what happened with Brogdon. He might be like a genius. That's what happened with Malcolm Brogdon. I don't know if Brogdon's a genius. He's pretty smart. They call him the president for a reason. He might be a genius like he might be running his own company someday.

Lonzo's like a hoop savant. Yeah. I think Brogdon. I mean, we're comparing like a second round pick to our top three pick. But I think in terms of B-ball IQ, I think like those guys tend to figure it out

at some level. So NBA Finals odds. Warriors minus 220. Cavs plus 360. San Antonio, what do you think their odds are, House? Plus 525. San Antonio what do you think their odds are house uh plus

five twenty five ten to one five to one ten to one ten to one wow Celtics

ten to one Celtics your fourth best odds thirty to one hmm Houston your fifth best odds forty to one

hmm Clippers fifty to one Raptorsippers, 50 to 1. Raptors, Wizards, 60 to 1. 60 to 1. That seems high for the Wiz. I think the Raptors and the Wizards are kind of tasty there. I'm just glad we're in the conversation.

Yeah, so we didn't talk about Ibaka and P.J. Tucker. I feel like you really have to be a die hard die hard league past psychopath to even have an opinion on pj tucker i i was waiting to see where he would go he's the kind of guy i could see in the in a series going at lebron getting in like annoying him frustrating him starting a thing pushing this guy like he's kind of perfect and i like abaca on that team too i'm really interested to see uh what they're gonna look like what do you think kevin i like tucker too especially for the price they got him yeah i think pj tucker like that's what you're getting him for i don't think he's a good shooter you know he's like 34 35 and he doesn't do a lot

else offensively but what he can do is switch on defense he's versatile he's hard nose and defense he's just a great energy guy and those are important in the playoffs i love it i love i love the two moves because i feel like it's messiah putting pressure on cleveland like you can't sleep through the playoffs right we're showing up what do you think house yeah i i gave um toronto the highest grade for the trade deadline in my own um internal. I really fear Toronto. Maybe not. They don't have enough time to win enough games to grab the two seed. But I think they're the most legitimate threat to Cleveland.

They're now, to me, at least by roster construction, ahead of both Washington and Boston. So the Celtics, Cleveland has 40 wins. Celtics have 37. Washington has 34. Toronto has 33. So you need to stay ahead of Toronto. You want to play the Celtics in round two, right?

I mean, that's a no-brainer. Oh, my God, yeah. Oh, man. And it's a bad matchup for us. That'll also just be so fun. That'll be a great one. Can everybody wear all black the entire time? Like 10 guys in all black.

Do you think that'll affect our friendship? We've never had our teams go against each other in really anything. I don't think it'll affect our friendship. You still like to eat, right? Yeah. Okay. All right. We're good.

We're good. I don't think our teams have ever competed in any sport in any playoff series that I can remember. Well, it's because Washington's been terrible for 30 years. Yeah, the most fun round two is Cleveland versus Toronto, Boston versus Washington. That's awesome. It's a slam dunk. That would be great. It would also be the first time in a while that second round Eastern Conference playoffs would be really exciting.

Yeah. And then on the other side. I guess. Do we want to see a Warriors Clippers series at this point? No. Not after last night. We've given up on that series. I want Rockets Warriors.

It doesn't matter what round. I think the Rockets could really, really give them a run for their money. Especially after getting Lou Williams. Yeah, we didn't talk about that i love that trade so they have shooters all over the place they have two creators when harden's out of the lineup and two just irrational confidence uh heat check guys gordon and williams i mean gordon's like rational and irrational but lou williams could win a playoff game when is the last time a team had like the top two sixth minute of the year candidates two guys that can go off for 25 points on any night coming off their bench lou williams is like one of the best pick and roll ball handler

playmakers this season right and he was for the playing for the lakers yeah now he's playing on the floor with eric gordon and ryan anderson and he could share minutes with james harden i think if they're healthy the warriors are are going to annihilate everybody. Like, I don't think this is really adorable. You guys are like the Rockets. I think Houston's going to game the math. No. I wrote this today.

They're going to shoot 63s. They're going to hope Harden has one game where he goes for like 58 or some crazy thing and he wins. And then the other ones are just going to hope they go like 25 for 60 from three. They shot 50 last night. Did you see that? I did. Yeah. Against the Pelicans.

And Dan Tony said he wants to shoot 53s per game the rest of the season. He wants that to be their average. If I'm the Warriors and I know I'm going to make the finals unless something funky happens. What's funky? Funky is, oh my God, we ran into that team that shot 45 from three and took 63 as a game like how we couldn't compete with the math that's the only way they're gonna lose couldn't they compete with that math really easily they could but they'd have to make shots you know i don't know i think what you're saying if is if golden state has one of those

cold streaks right yeah and then houston just happens to catch fire at that time like that's just just circumstantial i'm more optimistic than you are i'm not optimistic at all how many games will the warriors beat the rockets and chris five i think hillary has a selection says chris ryan hillary didn't have kd and the 2016 finals is over probably gonna beat trump turn the tv and Steph probably go to B-Trump. Turn the TV off. The Falcons are up 25, said Chris Ryan. Okay. Okay.

It's the year that don't write in anything in pen. Okay. Damien Chazelle, accepting his Oscar award, says, Thanks, Bill Simmons and Steve Kerr lifting the Larry O'Brien. It's not. I just, I just, but the watching the Warriors over the last couple weeks, I just don't see it. It is the unsolvable problem. I think with the Warriors, they haven't even unleashed everything they can do yet. I agree with you.

Where is the Durant, Steph and Curry pick and roll? They're not running that very often at all. I mean, there's little instances where they do it. But once they unleash that, how do you stop that? 50-point third quarter against the Clippers. I know they didn't have Chris Paul, but that was... They were absolutely inflamed last night.

If they re-sign Bogut after he gets bought out, that would be it. That's such a fun wrinkle. If Bogut goes back, he's a coward. No, I don't actually mean that. Undisputed. Coming up next,

my take. Does Bogan have enough bravery to stay away from me? You're a coward, Andrew Bogan. I wouldn't go back, but I'm spiteful. I'd be like, you guys got rid of me now.

Where would you go if you were him? I would go to Cleveland. Okay, that'd be fun. Or I would go to Houston would be the other one. I think I'd go like, you guys got rid of me now. Where would you go if you were him? I would go to Cleveland. Okay, that'd be fun. Or I would go to Houston would be the other one. I think I'd go to Houston. I don't think it was an accident that Houston just mysteriously cleared $3.3 million of buyout space on their no ledger. That's what Rory said yesterday in a post-interview.

I forget which show it was or if it was a conference call or whatever. But he said, out of all the contending teams, we have the most money we can offer. And it's like, so obviously they're going to go for somebody out there. And Bogut would be awesome for them. And let's be honest, Andrew Bogut's Twitter feed makes a lot more sense in Texas. A lot. Right, Tate?

He's happy in Texas. Yeah, he likes Texas. He's very comfortable. Hey, we love having great advertisers support our show. But in order to keep doing that, we need your help. So please go to podsurvey.com slash BS and take a quick anonymous survey that will help us get to know you a little better. I mean, the podcast is free. It's not like we're asking a lot here.

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Come on. I don't ask for much. All right. Any last things we got to cover on the NBA? Did we hit everything? House, did we cover everything? It feels like we got everything covered. Are you just saying that because you're hungry and you have to go?

I drank a lot of water at lunchtime. Before you go, will you tell us what's going to happen with Tiger Woods in 2017? Because yet again, I have Tiger Woods blue balls. I would get some ice. I believe they're going to stay very blue for the balance of this season. I don't have high hopes for him. He might come out and play two or three times. I don't think he's going to complete four rounds of golf this season.

It seems like he's not physically able to do so. This latest back setback, I believe, to be much more dramatic than what he and his camp have revealed. He was not able to show up to a press conference that would benefit his own new corporation and the charity in L.A. that backstopped the tournament at Riviera. So I think it's best to have the absolute lowest expectations possible for Tiger for the balance of 2017. Chris Ryan,

what are you looking forward to most in the last 28 games of the NBA season? The first real like boogie and Davis clicks, you know, just amazing 60 point, 70 point game from the two of them and i think the first 160 point rockets explosion kevin can i look ahead till may sure draft lottery night that's going to change a lot of things when we look ahead to the offseason depending on how that shakes out could change everything for the options for paul george or jimmy butler this offseason the l Lakers one is going to be super exciting. So right now we have Brooklyn as the number one spot locked up,

but then you have Phoenix at 39 losses, the Lakers at 39, and Orlando at 38, and then Philly lurking at 35. I mean, at some point they're going to have to take out T.J. McConnell and just, like, he might have to disappear. Yeah, he and Joel Embiid are going to have to go on a cruise. That stalls out somewhere in the South Pacific. They need to take him to South America and then tell him to get in a Jeep

and drive around on a mountain for a while and see if the locals come out and get a little proof of life reference. Man of fire? Yeah. What are we doing in that podcast? Whatever you want. I am looking forward most to the Celtics making a run at that Cleveland number one seed. I think they're going to sit LeBron for a couple games. It only takes one LeBron.

My calf's tied him out for two weeks type of thing. It would just be, I don't know. Cleveland's going to make the finals, but at least it would be nice to have to make them come to a game seven in Boston. Be fun. And I do kind of wish they had their own. Anyway, all right.

Enjoy the weekend. Check out my new column that went up at some point Friday afternoon Sunday Night Oscars show Sunday Night Oscars show what's that one Greenwald, me and Dobbins Sunday Night Live

yeah that's exciting Periscope and Facebook yep we might have Tuxes on we'll see we might have Tuxes on yeah

why didn't you bring this up sooner we were busy trying to figure out whether Drew Holiday is better than Alfred Payton of Bagger Rocks go check out all of our old podcasts Trying to figure out whether Drew Holiday is better than Alfred Payton of Bagger Rocks.

Go check out all of our old podcasts. Don't forget to check out SeatGeek. Download the free SeatGeek app or go to SeatGeek.com. And good luck to my friend, Jamie Kimmel, who's hosting the Oscars in front of an audience. It's about $110 million. How many people watch the oscars 100 million whatever you say all he needs is one donald trump tweet within the first 40 minutes and he's off i think that's past his bedtime he's off you think so yeah well the person controlling donald trump's twitter account just one tweet just one tweet to get the ball rolling anyway

enjoy the weekend and we'll be back next week on the BS Podcast. On the wayside On the first time I never lost it I don't have to ever forget