The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 187: Zach Lowe on the NBA's Wild, Wild West

Episode Date: March 14, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons brings on former Grantland teammate Zach Lowe to discuss the Warriors' losing ways (6:00), the only teams to go three years without 20 losses (15:00), Durant on the Warriors (19:00), Jazz-Clippers (25:00), whether this is the last year for Doc Rivers (34:00), whether the Jazz are for real (40:00), All-NBA picks (48:00), are the Spurs smoke and mirrors? (55:00), James Harden's passing ability (1:02:00), and Croatian basketball power rankings (1:10:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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ringer you right now and let titus and tate be your buddies for the whole tournament we're also sponsored obviously by the ringer.com which uh is the home of a lot of sports and pop culture and tech and all kinds of other stuff. Content, including my column, that I have been trying to write every week. And I think I have an NBA mailbag coming much later this week. Check out my Russell Westbrook column from last week if you missed it, about whether he is the most successful ball hog we've ever had. And I mean that as a compliment. Since I wrote the column, he's been a little less ball hoggy.

I don't know. They're an interesting team. We're going to talk about that with Zach Lowe coming up. And Zach and I, we did a lot of podcasts when I was at Greatland. And then we have not done a podcast. I went and checked since May 2015. So it's been 22 months since the last time Zach and I have batted around basketball ideas, concepts, themes, the whole thing on a podcast.

It's emotional. I'm welling up. But first, Pearl Jam. All right. Taping this 10 o'clock West Coast time, one o'clock East Coast time on Tuesday. There's a blizzard. Zach Lowe put on boots and a parka and a ski mask and just trucked through New York City to try to get there in his studio

for a podcast. It's been 22 months for us. That's how much it meant. Zach, how are you? I'm good. I did not wear a ski mask and it was actually not, it was not that bad. The hail hurt my face a little bit. Technically, somebody pointed out on Twitter it was not hail because hail can only be formed during a thunderstorm, and this must have just been sleet or something. I haven't verified that on weather.com, but something hurt my face, but I made it in anyway. All right. I'm glad to hear that. We're going to talk about the Western Conference.

This is going to be an all-Western Conference podcast. We're going deep dive all in. It's a fascinating time for this conference and just for basketball. We have, we have an amazing MVP race, which I don't really want to talk about in the way of, Oh, here's who I think should win. Because just quickly, I feel like we, we, we shouldn't do that for another two, three weeks. It's, it's like, this is an MVP work in progress to say like, oh, this guy's MVP, that guy's MVP. That's crazy to me.

What do you think? Yeah, I don't know what the rush is. I mean, I think at the same time I'm leaning in a couple directions right now, but I'll wait and see how the seeds shake out. I'll wait and see how the last 15 games go. We'll see. I mean, Oklahoma City is 6 or 7, probably 6. Houston is probably locked in.

I'm not sure what they can do to help Harden's case. Do you care if the Spurs are 1 or 2? Does that help Kawhi's? Because I don't know. And then LeBron's sitting there. It's going to be the hardest ballot we've had in a long, long time. Yeah, I was looking at some of the great MVP races over the years, and we haven't really

had one in a while where there's been four candidates that you can make a case for, you know, you'd have to go back to, I don't know, 1993, that kind of range where you had MJ and Hakeem and Barkley and all these different guys, David Robinson, where guys just, you had elite, elite future hall of famers having peak seasons. 87 was like that with Bird Magic and Early Jordan. But to see these guys, I think all four of these guys are Hall of Famers, barring injury. And Durant, this would have been a five-man race

if Durant didn't get hurt for me anyway. But since the last time we talked, I can't remember the talent being this deep and to have this many guys, either early prime peak prime or tail end of their prime. It's a, it's a, it's, it's a boom, right? You didn't even mention, you didn't even mention your boy, Boston folk hero, Isaiah Thomas. I know I can't, I can't take that. I'm the biggest homer there is, and even I don't think Isaiah is an MVP candidate. It's cute.

I'm glad they chant it, but that candidacy does not make a whole lot of sense to me when you compare it to Westbrook averaging a triple-double, James Harden. I don't even know how to describe the seasons he's having. Kawhi having one of the best two-way seasons I've ever seen in my life. And LeBron, quietly, with one of the best statistical seasons he's ever had. LeBron is going to average nine assists a game as a forward, which I'm pretty sure has never happened before. Has there been a forward at nine assists a game before? I can't imagine that's happened.

Are you talking to me or are you talking about your little stats crew you got over there? Because I can't answer that off the top of my head. I assume you have an army of people over there, a ringer army of people. He's at 8.9 assists. By the way, the most fun thing about the MVP race, the most fun possible scenario, is if Westbrook goes into the last game averaging 9.9 assists and how aggressively he would be passing from the opening tip of the game. And stink eyeing anyone who missed a shot. So let's start with Golden State because they hit a little blip and people are both overreacting and underreacting to it. On the one hand,

no Durant. And Durant did so many things for that team when he was out there. And it's weird to think that team won 73 and 67 without Durant. And you would think that they would be able to weather the storm without Durant better. But on the other hand, in the 50-plus games that he was in there, he took on so many different roles for that team that it does make sense considering their bench isn't great. They're probably worse from a depth standpoint. It makes

sense to me that they've tailed off a little bit, but at the same time, there does seem to be a little Clay Curry fatigue since the All-Star. I don't know if it's small sample size not to overreact or if something more sinister is happening. What are you seeing? Well, their schedule got brutal, right? I mean, they had like seven out of eight on the road and they were bouncing between time zones. Suddenly no one complains about regular NBA travel more than Warriors people.

I don't know how that is. It's like they just had to go play a game in China and then England and then they came back on a road trip. That's how much noise I'm hearing about it. I just think, you know, it is strange, right, that they feel helpless is too strong of a word. But they're like the need for Durant is urgent where this team has three all NBA players. Like I get like they're not as deep and like going from Harrison Barnes to Durant was a huge upgrade and going from Durant to McCaw and Matt Barnes is a huge downgrade. I get it.

But there's still three of the top 15 players in the NBA are on this roster. They should be okay. I don't care that your bench is like a bad center platoon and some other old dudes and young guys who are not ready. You should be all right with those three. I agree. And yet, on the other hand, without Durant, they do feel very 2011 heatish to me.

There's just guys that, like, they played the Celtics last week, and Zaza was out there in crunch time. You know? And you look at that, and you're like, wow. I don't know if Zaza should be on crunch time in the last three years for anybody who's over 40 wins. So you look at stuff like that and you look at McCaws in a really big spot. Clark and McAdoo, they have to lean on, depending game to game.

And it really does feel 2011 heatish to me. And then on top of it, Curry's just doesn't feel totally the same. And I don't want to overreact to that. But at the same time, like I do wonder, this guy became a massively famous guy over the last, I don't know, year and a half. And he seems a tiny bit worn down to me. And I don't know if it's mental or if it's just the rigors of what it's like to be an A plus list celebrity, which he is, and all the demands that you might have off the court, things like that. But they don't seem to have that same kind of joy that they had,

especially in the winning streak last year. Like when they won the first 25. That swagger joy thing just isn't there. Maybe it's because they're not winning as much. But that's the one thing I've noticed. The swagger is not quite there. What are you seeing other than the schedule and all that other stuff? Well, Curry and Klay have missed a whole lot of open shots.

Klay had a good game recently, I think, against Minnesota at 30. This is the thing with Curry. The moment that he makes three off the dribble threes in a row in the second quarter, whether it's tonight or Thursday or whoever, like, oh, he's back. He's back. It's all going to be fine again. Yeah, their depth is – I mean, this is – the heat comparison is a good one. Like, this is the price of having three to four max players on your team.

You just can't really – unless you nail the back of the draft a couple of times and they traded two picks to get Iguodala or to get the cap space to get Iguodala, it's hard to have a lot of good players coming off the bench. I also think everyone is in a hurry to exaggerate how deep they were last year. This was not a deep team last year. It's not like they've downgraded, like they sacrificed this unbelievable bench to get Kevin Durant. Like Barbosa, Spates, all of these guys, they're like okay.

Like they're fine. But like any time Curry was out of the guys they're like okay like they're fine but like anytime Curry was out of the game last year it was like nail-biter time for them like can we survive this stretch with Curry it's not like they had unbelievable depth what they really had was like a perfectly nice starting small forward and Harrison Barnes who they let go for a guy who's now hurt and that that's really the basic thing that's going on. I think they miss Bogut from all the typical reasons, like the screens, the intensity, the rim protecting, all that stuff. On the other hand, Bogut's career was heading toward being over, and then he actually got hurt.

But he looked a little bit broken down in Dallas, so maybe that was going to end naturally anyway. But what he gave them last year, that is the one thing I think they're missing this year, is they had different kinds of lineups for different styles of matchups, right? They could go small. They could do lineup of death. They could play bigger with Bogut.

And that was starting with when he went out in the finals, losing that lineup flexibility. I don't think they've ever really recovered from that. Durant, even with Durant, even at the height of how well they played this year, you know, they still were thriving when Durant and Draymond were basically the rim protectors. And not having that extra little, oh, here's this wrinkle we can throw out, I think makes them more predictable. And that's what I've noticed.

Oh, go ahead. No, I was going. Oh, go ahead. I do wonder if Kerr is going to use whatever version of the death lineup is available to him is going to happen more in the playoffs. Because actually I've been a little surprised how reluctant he is to do it and how he gets 48 minutes combined out of like four centers every single night. Or like maybe you'll see that lineup for three minutes or four minutes. Maybe. Some nights you don't see it at all. wonder if that's just we're saving that up but yeah i mean look bogut bogut before the jr smith injury in the finals is a good player he's a good player

you can't have enough good players and and you know on the when when zaza some nights zaza is good some nights zaza they just let him try and finish around the rim or contest late and you can't do it and then it's's like McAdoo is all right. David West's throwing some nice passes lately. It's hard to squeeze out points with some of these lineups. Are you seeing deterioration from Iguodala? I just think it's the same thing we've seen last year. Like he'll bring more effort when it matters.

But, yeah, I mean it's inevitable that he's not going to be the same player. He's not as explosive or consistently explosive a finisher anymore. He gets a little spooked in traffic sometimes, like against Oklahoma City, for instance. He's still a really important part of their team. There are going to be games where he's going to score two points. That's just what he is now. If you're playing them in the playoffs, you're just leaving him open, right?

I don't think it's an Andre Robertson situation, but I think that's the guy that teams are just going to be like, all right, beat us, please. Well, that's the thing. When they're fully healthy, like Draymond Green gets annoyed at this any time a coach – these coaches have to talk like shoot around, pregame,-game about like that day's opponent and like inevitably they're going to be asked like oh how do you

guard the words who do you leave open what happens and they bring up Draymond Green like yeah I mean if it's pick our poison time we're going to let Draymond shoot and he's shooting 32 percent from deep he's a career 33 and a half percent shooter he's a below average three-point shooter when they have everyone on the floor you should probably leave Draymond Green open. And coaches say that, and Draymond Green acts as if they've said, well, Draymond Green stinks. Like, he's the worst player in the NBA. He's, like, outraged.

Every week he's outraged about it. Like, no, you're shooting 32%, and Steph Curry and Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson are on your team. They should probably let you shoot. Yeah. I remember when I was doing TV during the first time he was playing in the playoff series, we talked about on, uh, on countdown, like, yeah, you got to leave Draymond Green. Like he's not going to make threes. Cause you're shooting like 18% that season.

And he got mad and went at me on Twitter. And this was when he couldn't even make any three pointers. But I think that's part of what makes him Draymond Green. He's, you know, has a very high confidence in himself. So one thing I noticed with Golden State, and I don't think people pay attention to this stuff enough, right? So this is year three of this three-year run they've had. They won 67 in 2015 and went all the way through to the finals in one and six. Then last year they win 73.

They go all the way through the finals. They lose in game seven. So this is year three of that run. And if you look at the history of when this has happened, first of all, only I went through, I think since the ABA-NBA merger in the last 40 years, only three other teams have won 62 plus three straight years. Can you name the three teams?

62 plus three years in a row yeah well the bulls the the post-mj comeback bulls right or did they know weren't they in the 50s one year no that's one of them 72 69 62 in year three okay so that was one um boy oh boy i know you have to go back celtics or lakers yeah one to go back. 80 Celtics or Lakers? Yeah, one of those two teams, Celtics or Lakers? Both of them. So 85 to 88 Lakers, 62, 62, 65, 62. Woo, woo. Yeah, and then the 84 to 86 Celtics, 62, 63, 67.

Yeah, the apex bird years. Right. But if you go through the rest of it, it's really, really hard to basically have 20 losses or less for three straight seasons, especially when you throw in the finals. And I think like, you know, you think about those Miami teams that LeBron was on and you go, wow, what a run that was. That was amazing. I went and looked at their records. I was surprised that their record wasn't better. They went 58-24 the first year, 46-20 in the lockout year. So that was on pace for 25-26 losses. The third year was the good year.

That was when they were 66-16, and they had the streak, the whole thing. But remember, they wore down in the last two rounds and barely held on to win the title, which they probably shouldn't have won and then the fourth year is 54 wins and you go through like the kg celtics the kobe lakers 09 to 11 65 57 57 the suns with nash 62 54 61 it's just hard to consistently win year after year for three straight years or more when you have that bullseye and that's the thing I wonder if they're going to get worn down a little bit that bullseye game after game every game you play is the biggest game of the year for the other team and maybe that's what we're starting to see with Curry and Clay like it's like it's if you're

playing in a playoff game for three straight years at some point that's going to have an effect on you. Now, I don't know how much of this is the rant, but what do you think of that theory, though? Well, I don't know how anyone could be surprised anymore or overlook it after the heat, right? I mean, the heat by year four, we're openly talking about how freaking tired they were. And by the end of that, the Spurs just ran them off the floor,

and we had nothing left at that point. That's a real thing. That's a end of that, the Spurs just ran them off the floor and we had nothing left at that point. That's a real thing. That's a lot of games and that's why they're going to do things like they did on Saturday where they arrested all the important players on the team. And they've been strangely – one of the things I think that is kind of charming about the Warriors is that even in these 67-73 win years, they get into the playoffs and the game gets a little harder for them.

And they've had moments where you can see it get in their head a little bit. It was in their head against the Thunder. It was in their head two years ago when the Grizzlies were up 2-1 against them. And they were like Curry and Klay were pump faking like nobody was even there. And they were pump faking in game three of that series in Memphis. So actually, I don't mean this like this is not condescending. It actually does make them more charming to me. Like they had there is some like mental vulnerability that's totally normal on that team that you wouldn't necessarily think you'd see on a 73 and 67 win team that makes that makes them more likable to me.

Like no matter how good they are this year with Durant, they're going to have a moment in the playoffs worth 1-1 or 2-1 or 2-2. And it's going to be difficult for them and it's going to be fun to see sort of how they how they look because they're like they're like a loose and easy kind of team that's one of the reasons why they like Draymond and they they tolerate what Draymond is because they're like we need someone on this team who gets pissed off and and like just you know is like has some rage in them like that's just not how the team is i think it's kind of interesting i'm with you and i and i also think just what they're doing we've never seen a team that relies this much on shots that are taken from 24 to 30 feet and it's just not as easy as you know these other where lebron every once in a while could be like all right right, I'm going to do a LeBron thing. I'm just getting us a basket.

It's never been as easy for this Golden State team. Even when you look at all the offensive efficiency stats and per 100, all that stuff, I get it. But you just think of those last five minutes against Cleveland in game seven when the defense went to this whole other level and it was really hard for them to get a great shot. And I think that's the difference with Durant. The fascinating wrinkle for the Warriors this year with Durant for me

was when they post him up. It's kind of like, oh, Jesus. And I almost feel like they've been rationing it out before he got hurt. They didn't really go to it too much, but I think that's kind of their secret weapon. And I haven't talked to you really since they got Durant, just as somebody who loves basketball. It really was amazing to watch him on this Warriors team. I'm totally all in on the Westbrook-Durant divorce because it led to the Westbrook triple-double

trace on one hand, and then Durant playing with this team and just going to another level as a basketball player how much did you love it you know it's funny um it's fun to watch and I've never I don't think I've ever seen a player get like 30 more easily than 2016-17 Kevin Durant like he just kind of walks into 30 points of dunks and wide open shots, and you're like, my God, that was the easiest 30 points I've ever seen. It did get a little boring for me when they were just so good, and they would have these runs where you would just think no one is ever going to touch this team.

But yeah, and that's another interesting thing about them. You mentioned the rationing. I agree with you. I think they've rationed that. The post-up stuff. I mean, he's their answer to what you said before. Like, when it gets a little harder, who's their bucket getter? Who's the guy who can just get buckets? That's what Durant was supposed to be.

And we haven't seen a lot of, like, go get us a bucket. Or Curry, Durant, pick and roll. Get a switch and exploit that switch. Like, slow it down and play like Cleveland was able to play. That's the card that sort of everyone thought that would be Durant's point on the team other than just making the team more awesome. And I do think if he's healthy, we'll see that at times in the playoffs.

Is there any chance Portland, if that's the eighth seed, and I think Portland is going to get it because of the incredible Nerkich trade, which I got to say I watch a lot of basketball and not see the Nerkich Portland Renaissance coming. because of the incredible Nurkic trade, which I got to say, I watch a lot of basketball. I did not see the Nurkic Portland Renaissance coming. And maybe it's a good lesson because he was completely miscast with the lineups that were putting him in in Denver and all that stuff, and just him and Jokic didn't work together.

Just be ready for the Nurkic the first time that adversity hits and he gets benched or he eats too much one night on the road like there's it's not all going to be peaches and cream for nurkic in portland it's coming and we'll see how he responds to it but yes it's worked out very well oh a very interesting warning from zach low i wasn't expecting that there there's no chance if durant's at 72 percent in round one and he's not 100 yet and lill, who has been on fire since the All-Star break, and I think probably read too many tweets or pieces in a column about how CJ McCollum was actually the best player on that team.

I don't know. That team could just try to outscore Golden State and at least make them work a little bit in round one. Could you see them in any sort of round one maybe it goes to seven games type of danger if durant's not 100 healthy no can i just say no no okay that's fine that's fine i'm just trying i'm trying to trying to find a way to get interested in round one because jazz clippers that's how you get interested in round one jazz clippers let's take a quick break to talk about legacy box it's a simple and affordable way to get Because jazz clippers, that's how you get interested in round one, jazz clippers.

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and The View are all talking about Legacy Box. Don't let your crappy videotapes decompose in your attic. Right now, go to LegacyBox.com slash BS, and you will get a 40% discount on your order. That's a pretty big discount. Once legacybox.com slash bs for 40 off back to my friend zach low so jazz clippers we're taping this on a tuesday they played monday night and the jazz won and the the gut reaction oh that's good. They've proved it. But did you watch that game? Because it was a little fluky. They made a lot of threes. I think they were 14 for 21 from three.

They had a 40-point quarter. It felt like the Clips were in control the whole game. And the Jazz defense the last four minutes just went up to a whole other level. And the crowd got into it. And the Clips collapsed a little bit. And the Jazz won. And yet, if I leave that game as a Clippers fan, I'm pretty encouraged because Chris Paul was fantastic. I don't know. I like the matchup for them. And I don't know if I'm going to leave that game

thinking, oh, the Jazz have figured it out. Now they know how to beat the Clippers. What did you see? Yeah, that was not on my list last night. But I did see the 14 of 21 stat, and I watched a little bit of a few minutes here or there. Yeah, you know, look, it was an important win for Utah to keep that number four seed and give themselves a shot to win the tiebreaker against the Clippers and sort of end the—I mean, they haven't beaten the Clippers more than—I think they were 1-16 in their last 17 against the Clippers and sort of end the – I mean, they haven't beaten the Clippers more than – I think they were 1-16 in their last 17 against the Clippers.

You know, it was – I thought, you know, the fact that they held Blake to eight points or nine points or whatever when they were playing small a lot of the game is interesting. But, yeah, I wouldn't read too much into it. I think that would be an interesting series and favors availability and role in that series would be an interesting series and and um favors availability and role in that series would be interesting but uh i would consider you know if utah gets if utah gets home court that might be a toss-up if the clippers get it they i think would be favorites in that series like paul

has been paul's last few last three games he's been rolling and to me they are they become it's a weird thing and you're you're the point guard guy you love to talk about point guards and how they should and shouldn't play and how different styles of point guards. When he looks to score 10% more, I think the Clippers become so much better. He plays a little faster. He pushes it a little more. They're a little less predictable.

I just think when he looks to score a little more, they're so much better. Sometimes you have games where it's like, does even want to shoot like like shoot a little bit yeah he does seem like he paces his his body for the season a little bit i do think he could score 25 26 27 a game if he wanted to you know and i think he's got always has the odometer in the back of his head what was interesting about last night, first of all, they can't. I think George Hill is a good defensive player. They can't really match up with Chris Paul. But they had Hayward.

If George Hill can't do it, then I'm not sure who can. I mean, George Hill is really pretty damn good. Yeah. Well, and Chris Paul is Chris Paul. So if he's feeling it and he's 100 healthy he's going to get to where he wants to go what was interesting to me is they were they put hayward on griffin a couple times and and i don't know you know big buff more muscular than ever gordon hayward could could kind of handle him and it made me think like i wonder if that's their destiny

because they're playing joe johnson at crunch time with hayward and the two guards and gobert and they could kind of survive going against blake and the other thing with the clippers i don't know what to make of them a that there's been five different points of the season where it felt like they were completely falling apart they don't seem like a happy team it, it's not a happy team to see in person. It is not, uh, you wouldn't walk away from a home Clippers game going, wow, what chemistry on that team? Wow. That those guys really love playing with each other. Like it's definitely, there's a malaise and a little bit of an unhappiness with them when you watch them. And at the same time, um, they're really unpredictable in a good way you know like austin rivers can come in

and just own a quarter jamal crawford can come in like he did in the boston game and just and just single-handedly swing the game and uh and same thing with reddick he can get hot and chris paul could just score 40 points any night blake was awesome for a month straight and it's it's the variables in a seven game series with that team i think are pretty scary if you're the other team don't you think well that's why i thought at the beginning of the year you know this was our best are the league's best chance against in the west against a healthy warriors team because they have now houston has taken like the variability thing to to the largest possible degree because they can just they might hit 25 threes twice in a series.

But the Clippers, at least, they have an explosiveness to them. And if they get out on the break and start rampaging a little bit, they can hang. If you hang 120, they can hang 125. They have those nights and they have that explosiveness. I'm not sure the Spurs have enough of that in them. I'm not sure the Spurs have another gear. The Spurs normal gear is plenty good enough. I don't know if they have another

gear. But, you know, the Clippers, you know, everyone, we've been dissecting the Clippers for five years now. It's like, you know, we'll see what happens in the playoffs. But I think the Clippers are really good and they're going to get trapped in a 4-5 series that is going to be tough. And maybe if they get lucky, they'll be outside the Warriors' bracket.

You think they would rather play the Spurs in round two if they made it than the Warriors, right? Because, I mean. Oh, my God. Have you seen any of those games? Like, I don't even want to watch the Warriors-Clippers anymore. It's just, it makes me feel sad. I'm with you, but the

infrastructure, the Spurs, I think they're screwed either way. I don't think they can beat either of those teams. Oh, they're underdogs, no question, but they can at least look to that series from two years ago and say, hey, look, when the Spurs were awesome and were one, you know, the Spurs lost the last regular season game that year to New Orleans and dropped four spots in the seedings. That could have been the second or third seed, and we went toe-to-toe with them in a seven-game series and came out alive. I think they can at least cling to that. Against Golden State, it's been four years since they have anything to cling to.

They can't even cling to a single-digit loss anymore. The thing I would cling to in a Golden State series is if Durant's not healthy. Of course. anymore the thing i would cling to in a golden state series is if durant's not healthy of course i'm still very dubious of this durant thing i have no evidence whatsoever i have no inside info i know nothing i just always get nervous and suspicious of knee injuries sprain knees i don't even know if there's a such thing as a sprained knee. What is a sprained knee? You can sprain your ankle. If you sprain your knee, doesn't that mean you either really stretched out your knee ligaments or you have like a partial tear or a tiny tear or whatever?

It just makes me nervous. He's seven feet tall and basketball is a really demanding sport. And you get to the playoffs and you're playing every other day. And he's like, oh, he'll be back in four to six weeks. How many times have we seen the guy not come back in six weeks? How many times have we seen the guy come back as a 60% version of himself? I just need to see it. It's like, it's almost like that year and we were doing podcasts that year, the broken foot year, right? It's like, oh, he's broken foot. He'll be back in six weeks. Oh, it's now it's going to be

seven weeks. Oh, Durant's back. Wait, he doesn't look the same. Oh, Durant's out again. It'll be back in six weeks. Oh, it's now it's going to be seven weeks. Oh, Durant's back. Wait, he doesn't look the same. Oh, Durant's out again. I don't know. I think it's a huge variable. And if, if I'm the Clippers,

you know, and it's, it's the choices, play the Spurs or play the Warriors with a compromised Durant. Yeah. You might be right. You might, again,

we'll see. I mean, there's no, yeah, it's a, we'll see. It's the's no yeah so we'll see it's the biggest variable this season i i really think like if durant isn't at least 85 to 90 i think that where his team could be beaten because i i just thought he did so much for

them and it's putting such a stretch on on guys that just have not been in that situation before you know has i as i can't remember has zaza even been in the finals no he hasn't right has he been in round three um i'm gonna say probably not to round three almost certainly not to round three but you as a boston fan you know better than to mess with zaza patchouli in the playoffs, man. Come on. I know. Nothing easy. Nothing easy in Zaza's world. Him and Anthony Peeler did a lot of demystifying the KG, how tough KG was. Anthony Peeler just punched KG, and Zaza headbutted him. And both times, KG, I don't know whether he was afraid of what he would do or whether it was like a Mike Tyson thing where you have to hit the bully once,

but both times it kind of got to him. The Clippers, is this the last stand? Because people seem to be split on this. There's, you know, some healthy Doc Rivers questions floating around in L.A., especially with the Bel Air Country Club and how many times a week you might be golfing. There are some healthy, there are some healthy Doc Rivers questions floating around the league, for sure. I think it's, it's about as healthy as it's ever been. I think, I think the consensus around the league seems to be that if this ends badly this year, everyone is prepared for anything,

right? It was short of Chris Paul leaving. The one thing I don't think will happen is I think Chris Paul, because of the money and because of the point that he's at in his career, I think he re-signs for big bucks with the Clips and grabs that one last contract. Blake and Doc, I don't know. You mean the contract that he negotiated almost for himself? Well, actually, he's only 31, so I don't know if it – yeah, no, he would. He negotiated the over 36 rule to the over 38 rule, which they just called a Chris Paul rule

because I happen to be the president of the union and I happen to be up for a new contract when we do the new CBA. Phenomenal. Yeah. Great job by Chris Paul. And look, it helps the old guys. It does tilt the scale further to the young max guys who are the most productive guys in the league are relatively underpaid compared to the guys who are...

The worst contract in the league is the 37-year-old dude who's not good anymore and makes the max. Look, I'm going to use your preface before. I got no evidence. I got no hard evidence. I got nothing but my feel for that team. If they lose in the first round or if they lose just uncompetitively in the second round, I just don't think they're all coming back next year, and I think there will be a big change.

I don't know what the change will be. It'll be a bigger change than J.J. Redick leaving. I just don't see that. If they just get whitewashed in the second round round I just don't see all those guys looking at each other and being like you know what let's run it back again I just don't see it happening I don't know if it's Doc or Blake or like maybe they trade DJ I have no idea I just don't think though all the big guys are going to be back next year it's amazing to think that Chris Paul and Blake Griffin became teammates about six months after we launched Grantland.

That's how long it's been. I mean, it's year six. Six years is a long time. And if they can't even get to round three with those guys in six years, when you have two of, you know, at various points, a couple of years, they were two of the best 10 players in the league. Now I think the league is deeper and it's hard to say who the top 10 12 15 is but yeah i just i this feels like a this is it type of situation to me i i would watch a uh i would watch a 30 for not to bring back bad memories but i would watch a 30 for 30 short on the clippers rockets conference semifinals from two years ago.

I still feel like as much as I've digested it and talked to people who are in it and rewatched part of it, I still don't feel like we got the real story about what happened in that series. It's, it's, it's, I mean, you, you do this, these like retrospective lists better than I do it to me. It's if I don't know that I can think of four of three or four more inexplicable, crazy playoff series turnarounds in my lifetime. It might be the craziest, most inexplicable playoff series outcome that I can remember since I started covering the NBA. Maybe there's an obvious one I'm missing, but that one was, that's an all-timer. I was at the game when it flipped. And I've been lucky enough to go to a bunch of amazing basketball games. Like, including a couple games that have been on, you know, hardwood classics and all that stuff.

I was at Birdsteel. I was at Magic's Junior Skyhook. I mean, I've been to some great ones. I've never seen a game flip like that in my life. I don't even know what you would compare it to. It's almost like I went to Red Sox Yankees 2004 when that game flipped, but that game really flipped on a walk, Dave Roberts steals second, an infield or a hit through the infield and Roberts scores. And it made sense. The Rockets, they were done. I was there with the guy I shared Clippers tickets with, my friend Mike Tolan.

And we were watching the Rockets bench and Harden like literally quit. Like he was done. He was on the bench. He wasn't even standing up for the timeouts. He wasn't cheering on the team. Like Mikhail benched him. And when you think about that too like and now harden is i think gonna probably win the mvp unless something

bad happens what a fork in the road moment for him because if they lose that game he's benched in the deciding game what happens do they trade like that opens up all these james harden questions and instead of flip the other way and then for it to flip on Josh Smith and Corey Brewer where the guy where the guys basically shot the lights out one is out of the league and one is like the eighth man for a team that is trying to lose as many games as possible in today's NBA and I don't even I really don't even totally think the Clippers choked because I think they had spent so much energy getting past the Spurs and they had spent so much

energy trying to get past the Rockets. Just being at the game, Blake seemed like he was dead. They almost had to carry him off the court after the game. I had J.J. Redick here a couple weeks ago and we were talking about it. He was saying like those guys were looking at each other in game 70 houston like i just have no legs left i'm done and you know pablo prigioni stole the ball from jj reddick like four times in that game

right the uh i'm sorry i'm sorry jj the uh the doc rivers not using the bench enough and really putting a ton of minutes on those guys was the legacy of that series for me. I just think he ran those guys into the ground. But you're right, that was the year because if they get past Houston, now you have Golden State in the finals, which at that point they matched up well with them.

Now it's been a lot more one-sided. But yeah, i think this is unless we see something dramatically awesome this year i think you could see chris paul and i mean uh doc rivers and blake being gone because the other the other variable for this summer is you're gonna have teams at different levels of desperation you're gonna have teams with really good lottery picks to trade and you have a team like denver that's just dying to go all in on a second player to put with yokage and or a team like phoenix that's just dying for a signature star to put with book with uh devin booker so who knows i i think all those guys are are in play do you are you are you sold on utah

as a legit title contender or is just as a cute frisky playoff team that's not going to do anything this season cute frisky playoff team um that's how i let's see yeah no they're not a title contender no they're they're they're on an interesting path that gets very dicey if this summer goes badly for them but they're they're they're a solid team i just don't think their offense will be good enough for them to – I mean, no, they're not a contender, no. I love Gordon Hayward if he's the second best player on my team. I think when he's the best player on my team, I just don't know how –

you're in a season this year where you have vintage Harden, vintage Westbrook, vintage LeBron, vintage Curry, Thompson, Durant. You just can't. If Gordon Haywood's your best guy that you're going to be trading haymakers with guys like that, you're in trouble. I think he's had a great season. I'm going to vote for him for either all-NBA second team or third team. I don't know yet. So who are you leaving off among the forwards?

Because he probably ranks seventh. I guess maybe would you leave Durant off now if he misses too many games? Oh, no. Durant's on. Durant made the cutoff for me for 59. I sketched it out. For me, Paul George isn't on the – he's not one of the six forwards, I don't think. I think Butler and Paul George are in kind of a death match for that last spot right now.

So here's what you got then. You got Butler, Giannis, LeBron, Durant, Anthony Davis. I have Giannis on there. I have Giannis on there. Butler, Giannis, LeBron, Durant, Anthony Davis, and Kawhi get you to six forwards right away. So Hayward's out if all six of those guys are on it. But I'm going to vote. I'm voting Davis for my first team all-NBA center.

Okay. I was going to say, unless you monkey with the positions. Is it a full monkey, though? I mean, he plays a lot of five for them, right? I mean, now with Boogie, maybe less. But I don't mind monkeying. To me, it's like Davis has to be on the first team. I'm just getting on.

Oh, and Draymond. What about Draymond? That's the seven. I knew we were missing somebody. That's seven right there. So even if you move Davis, you got Butler, Giannis, LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, and Draymond. Good luck, my friend. Yeah, that's pretty rough.

Do you have Gobert in there? I haven't thought about all NBA yet. I suspect he... Center is actually sneakily, you know, like Gasol, Cousins, Gobert. Cousins. Get Cousins out of there. Just stop it. Take him out.

Wow. I like that. That was exciting. Now, get him out. How about this? DJ? Win 40 games once before we start talking about you with all NBA. I don't care because you already blocked me on Twitter.

I'll say whatever I want. I have Gobert, and I think DeAndre is one of the most underrated guys in the league now. I think it's actually became fashionable to overrate him, and now he's underrated. But I think Gobert is a better basketball player. And we didn't even mention Towns. And my boy, everyone's new favorite NBA player, Nikola Jokic. The Joker's in the mix for me. When you're putting up the 15, 13, 6 every game,

here's another guy that nobody's mentioning and probably needs to be in this conversation. Whiteside is putting up 15 and 15 every night now. Oh, stop, stop, stop, no. 15 and 15 every night? No. He's not in the conversation. He's fine.

Hassan Whiteside is fine. That team's winning. They're winning. Jokic is going to lose 48 to 50 games and Hassan Whiteside is gonna be the seventh or eighth seed with Dragic and our dude Waiters Island actually we got to talk about Waiters Island but first we have to take a quick break quick quick break let's take a quick break to talk about Delta Airlines have you ever been flying on a plane and said to yourself man I want to hop online and watch some movies or TV shows. This will be super easy. Nah, you've never said that.

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Back to the podcast. Alright, we're back. We're postponing the Western Conference for one second because was there anyone else on Waiters Island but you and I? Was there one person left? It was just the two of us, right? And I think we even made jokes

about building rafts to get off of Waiters Island when things got bad. But maybe the waves, the waves, just the divine intervention from Poseidon just pushed us back and we could never get off. I'm not, maybe people in his family. Maybe that's it. It was like Castaway. The ocean hadn't sent us a sail yet. So we tried to make a raft.

Then the wave knocked us back and we're just stuck on the island. And now it's, now it's a tropical paradise now we have hotels we have five-star hotels we have a golf course we we got everything it's not a trump golf course so i'll tell you that much um i i can't i can't tell you how many uh nba like real people who work for teams have sent me the joke about like, are you going to sell high on your Waiters Island property? Never, never, never. I'm never selling. It's too fun. And right now, like I couldn't sell. Now it's a 24-7 party on Waiters Island. When you think about it, he was really in the worst basketball situation for him. And we used

to make fun of it because he's on this OKC team where they have two of the best offensive players the last 25 years in the same team. And he's over in the corner holding his arm up and it's, oh, it's hilarious. Deanne Waiters is open again. Deanne Waiters is an explosive offensive player who just needed to have the ball and the chance to do stuff without being relegated to just standing in the corner. And when they signed him, obviously as a Waiters Island condo owner, I was intrigued. I was like, this is good. This is Miami.

They lost Dwayne Wade. It's a team that might need scoring. And I never imagined this. But anyway, we'll save that for another time. Let's go back to the Western Conference. San Antonio. This is going to hurt. this but anyway we got we'll save that for another time let's go back to the western conference san antonio this is gonna hurt this is gonna hurt your feelings that i'm asking this oh it's gonna hurt your feelings and i am well aware of the offensive ratings the per 100

all all the advanced metric stuff i get it i've seen all the stats is this a little more smoke and mirrors than we want to admit uh it doesn't hurt my feelings because i i've said all year i just don't think this team is as good as the metrics i just they don't scare me as a team and i've had many conversations with this from uh with execs from a lot of other teams saying like I increasingly just feel like an idiot because I keep thinking this and watching them and thinking

there's something about them that doesn't frighten me as a playoff opponent and they keep winning they keep winning by a lot like I was in the last time I saw them a person was in Detroit against a team that's just dying to make the playoffs all the Pistons want to do is get in the playoffs and they and they I believe Manu didn't play that game they sat a couple I don't remember who they sit people every game you never see the full Spurs

and it was like it it was like the Spurs were just from a different league like there was a different league of better teams and they sent one of their teams over to the NBA to play an exhibition against like a random average NBA team. And it was like just completely outclassed the Pistons, just like different class of team. They're so freaking good. And they leave me a little bit like maybe it's like we're going to get to the playoffs. And like, I'm not sure David Lee is going to be able to guard in the playoffs. I'm not sure Dwayne Dedman is going to be able to be on the floor this much in the playoffs because we've seen what happens to centers. It's not fair to say he doesn't do anything offensively

because he's like a mini DJ Tyson Chandler prototype who does that offensively, and that's very valuable. I just think they have guys that I don't trust as much when they're playing an elite team, 4-7. That team can scout and exploit, they can, that team can scout and exploit and tinker with stuff. But that said, like, who's going to beat them in the West? You know, if they, if, even if they don't have another gear, even if all those things

that I just said turn out to be true, who's beating them? So the Warriors, the Warriors, if they're healthy, yes. The Warriors, if they're healthy, yes. So anyone else look to show me a team in the West is like, oh, they're healthy, yes. The Warriors, if they're healthy, yes. Anyone else? Show me a team in the West that's like, oh, they can be. Even if the B-plus Spurs or A-minus Spurs or all the Spurs are, that's better than everyone. I love Houston, so we're going to talk about them after this.

And I think Houston could beat them. But the thing that would worry me, if I'm a Spurs fan, the thing that would worry me is that other than Kawhi, who's been out of his mind this year, and he's just, I think he's the best perimeter defender I've ever seen in my life. you know my buddy and i was like i always thought pippin mid-90s pippin was at this level that i was just never gonna see again as just somebody that could guard any type of person and just be like oh i'm gonna shut you down now and that's it the guy was done kawaii is i think better than pippin was and i can't believe i'm saying that i've never what could like i don't know if you saw the san antonionesota game when Kawhi was just like, oh, Andrew Wiggins is doing pretty well. I'm going to just ruin his career for the next 20 minutes.

Please keep giving him the ball. Every time you give him the ball, I'm going to destroy him. It's going to be a huge mistake. Oh, you're giving the ball again. This is great. I'm going to destroy him again. It was unbelievable. Andrew Wiggins is a really good offensive player.

He's scoring like 22 to 25 a night, and Kawhi just demolished him. So I'm just starting there. He's playing out of his mind, so it makes sense they're a contender. But then you go through the rest of the guys. Who is better in 2017 than they were three years ago? Just go down the line. Like LaMarcus Aldridge, assuming he comes back. Well, I was going to say, his health

is the big thing hovering over this that we forgot to mention already. It's like the Durant thing. If he's playing, if he's not playing, this is a different conversation. Right. But he was just a much better basketball player three years ago. He has a better score. He has a better rebounder, the whole thing. Their point

guards are not nearly as good as they were three years ago. I think Patty Mills is probably the same, but Parker has deteriorated to say the least. Manu is at the tail end. Pau Gasol, David Lee. He's going down the line. It's like, who's peaking? And then on top of it, who's their five?

Let's say it's game seven. There's five minutes left who are the five that's out there right who like just tell me who you're who you think their five would be they're down to coming out of a timeout they're in golden state what five guys are out there for them well the interesting thing about them is um that obviously for years they've preferred to play two bigs at all times. So if that's the case, it's probably for me, it's probably going to be depending on what they need from point guards. Patty Mills, Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard and LaMarcus. And I still think when push comes to shove, they're probably going to play Powell over Dedman and over David Lee.

But the card that just in the regular the regular season, it appears like in random games, just like randomly, maybe the other team goes small and they do it. The Kawhi at four thing, it's just like there's no rhyme or reason to when Pop breaks in case of emergency, that kind of lineup. I've always been intrigued by it. I'm generally

intrigued by small ball anyway. It's just, like I said, there doesn't seem to be any pattern to when and where and how and it's not a big part of what they do but in the right matchup mills green genoble mills green simmons kawaii whatever you want to get to it with lamarcus at the five is is a lineup that um we just we haven't seen much but that could work i think that's the lineup that i would expect to see. I think Manu's out there. I think it's Mills, Manu, Green, Kawhi at the four, and LaMarcus. And that's when your season's on the line, I think you play those five. And Kawhi, you basically play Kawhi at center. I don't think it

really matters. Just play Kawhi, shut down that guy, and that guy's not going to score again. But yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I really like Houston, and I don't want to overreact to the Cleveland game because they played well. They needed the win. It's Sunday night. It's always easy to overreact to a national game, things like that. But man, if they're going to get Nene going,

and you have Nene and Beverly out there who are two world-class agitator, the kind of guys you want in the playoffs, they're a little nasty edge to them. But they played crunch time against Cleveland. They had Eric Gordon on the bench. They had Lou Williams on the bench. Those guys would be playing crunch time for, I would say, most of the good teams they're just deep they got you know they have options they have flexibility and they have a guy who's just having a magnificent season and then they have the variables that we talked about earlier where they're taking 43s a game they're making 15 that's the team that scares me that's the team if i'm going state i don't want to play houston because i can't control the variables does it make sense the interesting yeah no and to go back

to the spurs thing you know when we say like there are these cliches like we don't know if they have another gear um blah blah blah i i think what when people talk about the spurs that way we have this image of like they got into the playoffs and they faced the thunder now they've placed under three times in the playoffs lost twice and they were very clearly sort of they faced the Thunder. Now they've faced the Thunder three times in the playoffs, lost twice. And they were very clearly sort of overwhelmed by the Thunder's athleticism. All of a sudden they looked a little old and all the polish and execution and ball movement and stuff sort of like fell away when presented with very large, fast young people who could jump high.

And that was real. That was a real thing. The Spurs will talk to you about that. Like, yeah, you know, that was really hard for us to deal with. We're just kind of not built that way. And if you take away some of our execution, then yeah, and you turn it into a one-on-one game at the end of the shot clock, we're not going to win that way against a team that's so athletic like that. I'm not sure what that team is in this year's Western Conference now that the Thunder are

gone. Like, Houston is a different kind of explosive and a different kind of fast, and I think the Spurs can keep up with that. I don't think that overwhelms them. So I think, just to clarify, that's what people think about in their minds when they say the Spurs maybe don't have another gear, the game changes in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah. I don't know that that kind of kryptonite exists anymore in the west and the spurs have always been the team to borrow a wrestling term that puts the the new up-and-coming contender over and uh and it's been going back to like the dallas phoenix era

where you know to to get over the hump the spurs are kind of the first obstacle to win the wwe title and i wonder if this year it's gonna that's the rockets like all right rockets are you legit get past popovich go do it the guy's been there for 20 years everybody's been trying to beat him and he's going to give you a great series can you beat this team and if they beat that team that's when it gets interesting but man I can't believe how good Harden is and he went from being probably my least favorite superstar other than Dwight Howard to watch game to game I was so bored of just spread the floor and he goes one-on-one and tries to get fouled it was just excruciating and now it's like delightful

I really I really enjoyed I had no idea that he was this good of a passer like i really think he's on the lebron level as as a passer slash creator the the the shots that he's finding guys and the sneaky little backdoor passes and behind the all the stuff like he's a brilliant basketball player and I can't believe I never in my wildest dreams imagined he would be half as good as he's been, you know, when you go back to like the Harden trade. They made the Harden trade. It's like, oh, man, that guy might be the next Manu Ginobili. That's a mistake. And it's like he's way better than Manu Ginobili.

I love Manu. But I just never imagined he would get to these heights. Did you? I don't think anyone saw this, but I mean, I, but I'm not as surprised by most people about his passing. I mean, he's always been a great passer, and he just has the ball more now, and he has more shooting around him. And I think he's recalibrated his game a little bit to be a little bit more pass-first or pass more quickly when he gets around the screen and less dicking around with the ball.

But, yeah, I mean, he's always been a brilliant passer. I think what separates him from a Ginobili or what maybe has – it's not surprising, but it just keeps lasting is his strength and his durability. Like, he never misses games. He's just relentless in terms of, like, he'll take it to the rim 10 times in a row. It doesn't matter if you foul him every single time. Foul him hard.

Like, he's still going to come. And, like, that physical power and endurance is really really on you it's it's like it's it's like a mortal version of lebron i mean it's it's he's very similar in that sense like he just he just keeps coming westbrook is like that too westbrook had that one knee injury that time and then they sent him back to the factory and they replaced some of his parts and sent him back out in the real world again and he's been fine ever since but yeah when you always have the you have these different stats that compare guys from eras and you know it can be pr it could be win shares all this different stuff the durability is the part that they've never really figured out

how to factor in when you have somebody like Cardin who just game after game is going to get to the free throw line 10 to 12 times and he's going to play 38 minutes and he's going to do everything and then he's going to come back and do it again the next night and four games in five nights and 16 times in 30 days. LeBron, the same thing. LeBron's durability, you could make a case as the single most incredible

achievement in the history of the league. I really believe that. The guy has never, ever missed an extended stretch in his entire career. It's impossible. Even Kareem broke his hand once punching Kent Benson. LeBron just, every year,

plays nine months a year maybe takes he took two weeks off that first year with cleveland when he went to miami but other than that d i don't i don't ever remember him disappearing and it's just year 14 still cranking him out guys playing 38 minutes a game this year it's it's unlike anything we've ever seen superhuman and i'm with you i think harden harden to me is is at least as reliable from a durability standpoint what what is the dwight howard factor though with this is it just your team is just going to automatically better be better as soon as you get rid of dwight howard i mean they've been pretty open about that uh about just like dwight wanted the ball wanted the ball in the post didn't want to set screens and roll all the time that annoyed james harden they were annoyed

with each other neither of them is really great at being like a direct contra confrontational person so it just sort of like lingered like a fart in the locker room all year long and then the fart left and all of a sudden all the centers were like i don't really care if you pass me the ball other than ali oops that's fine with me and the weird thing is like, I don't really care if you pass me the ball other than an alley-oops. That's fine with me. And the weird thing is, like, Dwight doesn't really post up in Atlanta either. Like, once in a while when he's on with the second unit, they'll dump it to him and he'll miss a jump hook. And you're like, it's not like he went to Atlanta and all of a sudden it's like 2011 Dwight again getting six or seven post touches a game. It's weird, but maybe it was just sort of a, it was just sort of a lingering tension, which is one of those locker room things that's very hard to quantify or really

get unless you start talking to people about it. That's my specialty, as you know, being the body language doctor. Dude, now you're in, now you're in my part of the office. Um, this is what really bothers me about Dwight is that the same thing's going to happen with his career near the tail end. Um, that has with Vince Carter. And it don't think I haven't noticed that you're on the Vince Carter driving the historical Vince Carter bandwagon.

Vince Carter wrote a whole column about his whole fan candidates for a website called grantland.com. I remember Vince Carter, the revisionist history that will happen with him and it's already happened and I'm already watching it I just know I happen to be alive during the Vince Carter prime and I happen to watch him quit on the Toronto Raptors and I happen to watch him

I happen to watch him at no point in his career other than once was he one of the top 10 players in the league during a time when it really was you know was not exactly a talent boom to say to say the least um and then goes to Orlando as the missing piece in the 2010 Magic did nothing I don't know I I think we're gonna look back at Dwight this way too I think you can absolutely make the case and it's been made and I think I've even made it

that he's the best center since Shaq. But other than 09, it was really impossible to do really anything meaningful if he was your best player because of all the reasons we just talked about. He never totally understood,

oh, here's what I have to do to help my team win. He just had this blockheaded mentality of i need the ball in the low post i need i need i need to shoot a jump hook off the top of the backboard i haven't shot a terrible jump hook in three minutes like he just never never got it he never understood it and he's been one of the most frustrating players i've ever watched i know you agree with that at least. Well, I just wonder what would, what would have happened if he won the MVP in 2011? What does that do to his, which I thought he was the MVP of

the league that year. Um, what would that do to his hall of fame case? And Derek Rose who won it that year is probably going to be the only MVP not to make the hall of fame, um, in NBA history. Um, I, you know, I don't, Dwight, I thought in 2010, the magic were the best team in the history. Dwight, I thought in 2010 the Magic were the best team in the NBA. And obviously the Celtics upset them in the playoffs, in the conference finals, and Vince missed some crucial free throws in game one of that series, and that was sort of – Oh.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Go back. Okay. Key free throws with like 30 seconds to go, and the Magic kind of got punched and wobbled and then lost game two and got blown out in game three, and then it was hopeless. Yeah, and then to me, I don't know that what's happened with Dwight

is any more complicated than he got a back injury and a shoulder injury and his body started breaking apart and he just isn't the same guy. And Dwight, without without the you watch some Dwight post-ups from 2011 he would just get the ball turn around and dunk like Shaq like he would just like jump kind of like jump over and around you and dunk and you'd be like okay what the hell am I supposed to do about that like he has no moves it doesn't even matter and you took that away and it's like okay he's a nice player and that's he's a nice player who wants to do stuff that's a little outside his skill set now i voted for rose in 2011

mainly because out of a lack of respect for dwight and i don't even know if it was the right choice i just felt like rose had such a scoring burden on that team that if he, in the last five minutes, he was really the only guy who was going to do anything. And I don't know, I'd have to look back. I think the numbers are so much better now. It'd be interesting to look back and see if the numbers,

the advanced stuff kind of held up. Like I was shocked, like researching the Westbrook column that I wrote last week, just how high his usage rate numbers were compared to things that I thought would have had an equally high usage rate. We've never seen anything like this Westbrook season. Quickly, we've got to talk about OKC really quick. Yeah.

So they basically stole Taj Gibson from the terrible Chicago Bulls front office. I don't know if they're trying to intentionally sabotage the team or if it's just complete incompetence. But they added Taj Gibson. I don't know if McDermott can help them. They're a great rebounding team. They have a great player. They have a pretty good home court advantage. They're a terrible three-point shooting team.

But if they can improve that part, and if Westbrook can scale it back a little and get these other guys more involved, and if Kanter can get going off the bench, is there anything dangerous about that team to you? Well, are we assuming they get, whether they're going to get six and play Houston or seven and play the Spurs or Warriors?

Does it matter to you? I don't think they're particularly dangerous against six and play Houston or seven and play the Spurs or Warriors, does it matter to you? I don't think they're particularly dangerous against either of those opponents. Okay. I think they're going to get six. They're a solid team. I think they're going to get six, too. They're solid. They're solid.

They just don't have enough shooting. And, you know, I'm not sure Billy Donovan is going to play McDermott and Arbenis enough to move the needle in their shooting. But I will say this. I don't want to hear anymore about how it's Russell Westbrook and a bunch of D-League dudes. I saw even last night on the TNT game. I don't know. Maybe it was somewhere on one of the games last night they had the poll up on the screen. And the question was, is Russell Westbrook the nvp no it was on espn today actually

i walked by it in the office so because russ do you agree with so and so who said russell westbrook's the nvp because he has no one around him i was like wait a second like victor oladipo is no one steven adams everyone was talking about what a great player steven adams was in the playoffs last year he's no one now taj, I get that they're not offensive players and it's hard to build an offense around these guys, but it's not like Russell Westbrook and the Rio Grande Valley Vipers are the sixth seed in the Western Conference.

I would be pissed off if I kept hearing I'm nobody. I suck. I'm like, I'm Victor Oladipo. I was the number two pick in the draft. I suck. That Oladipo Adams, we left the playoffs last year thinking he was going to be like a special young center. I think Kanter is one of the single best guys coming off the bench as a post-up

guy that anybody has. I like potentially Gibson. Sabonis has moments. I agree with you. And that was one of the reasons i wrote the piece last week is like i i think the fact that they haven't figured out a way to involve those guys a little bit more like oladipo to me i'm amazed he's putting up the stats that he's even put up because he never has the ball and when he does have the ball it's like the play

that westbrook like donovan clearly told westbrook't shoot this play, let Oladipo have a play. So the defense is like, oh, here's the Oladipo play. This is going to be, we know he's going to have to shoot. But I think he's had a good season. I think he's a really good player. And I'm with you. I think their supporting Gaston is better than people realize. Well, but then we only named Oladipo and Adams.

I think there's something. And Gibson just got there. And Roberson is good for what he is. Well, he's free-filed this year offensively. I think that's hurt them. Can't shoot free throws and people leave him so open. Like, you know, Singler doesn't play. Grant doesn't play.

Kanter is like one of those smelly cheeses. Like, some people really like smelly cheese, and some people think it's just, disgusting i we we are on the opposite side of the can or smelly cheese i just i just i i have i just have a personal distaste for his game it's just and sabonis after a good first six weeks of the season has fallen apart so they're not yeah they're not that deep and and i get why people say nobody's there but it's like we we do these things in the mvp race like i you know there's been some columns that have come out recently like oh defense

doesn't matter shouldn't matter is in the mvp race russell westbrook's the mvp i don't know like defense matters it matters that the spurs have the best defense in the league like that helps them win a lot of nba basketball games in the regular season in the playoffs and like kawaii leonard is probably the main reason they have the best defense in the league I and I think Adams is a really good player and I that's been disappointing for me that they haven't figured out a way to kind of vault him to another level I'm with you that the the the defense doesn't matter argument I don't even understand that one it's defense usually wins the title I just don't like when i get told i don't like when i get told that the mvp is this person and if you think it might be another person you're just a

moron i don't okay cool like um that's cool whatever especially this year especially this year where we have four really good candidates i mean mean, we have, I always had that running joke in NBA comms about how the MVP trophy should weigh different, it should have different weights depending on how good the season was and how good the race was. So you have like the 2011 season. That was like a five pound trophy.

You know, this is like a 40 pound trophy this year. This is like one of those it's really it's almost like the stanley cup it's gigantic it's weighted like if you went if you're the mvp in 2017 and you beat like russell westbrook's triple double and kawai having one of the most ridiculous two-way seasons in the history of the league and lebron doing all the stuff he's doing if you're hardened you beat those three guys to win this MVP, that's a 40-pound trophy. That's pretty good.

Yeah. Houston. I don't think they're dangerous, though. Sorry. I don't think they're dangerous. Oh, you're preaching the choir. I'm just trying to drum up any interest in round one. Really, it looks like we're only going to have Utah and the Clippers.

Although, Westbrook going into John Wick mode against whoever the three-se seed is going to be, that'll be fun at least. Because I know he's trying to share the ball a little bit more now and all that stuff, but when we get to the playoffs, he's going to be like 17th gear. A lot of John Wick references coming from the ringer.

I know. John Wick is not Jack Reacher, right? Those are different people? Oh my God, Zach. This just tells me that John Wick is Keanu Reeves John Wick is Keanu Reeves and he's another guy who beats a lot of people up

can you see John Wick why is everyone talking about John Wick why can you rent John Wick just take an hour and a half out of your time over the next basketball like during a day when there's like a three-game night, something like that, just watch John Wick

and then go see John Wick 2 and then you'll understand. Okay. You'll understand. All right. That'll be a good sell to the wife. Hey, honey, instead of watching the NBA tonight, let's queue up John Wick on the DVR. Let's queue up John Wick on demand.

Maybe there's a blizzard. It's an action movie with Keanu Reeves. You'll love it. Maybe she likes Keanu Reeves. Your birthday's coming up in 10 days. Instead of a date night, maybe let's watch John Wick together. What are the Croatian basketball player power rankings right now? Well, I don't want to forget any of them, but Saric.

Is Saric number one? Am I missing an obvious Croat? I had Dragic has been, is Dragic Serbian or Croatian? Dragic is, Dragic is Slovenian. Okay. It gets tricky. It gets tricky. And thank you for saying Dragic.

You're, for some reason, Vucevic brings out the worst in you. You just can't get, it's Vukovic every time. Thank God. Dragic you got. How about Bogdanovich? Bogdanovich? It's always itch. Bogdanovich is surging. He's Croatian.

Hizonja I would have to probably say is last unless we include Roku Ucic who's not in the league anymore. I guess Bender's last. I guess Bender's last. I guess Bender's last just by virtue of being a DNP injured. Nurkic is Bosnian. Jokic is Serbian.

And we may be forgetting someone. But I guess Saric right now, Rookie of the Year. And also, I love Mark Stein. Mark Stein and our boys. You cannot vote Joel Embiid Rookie of the Year. Where do you stand on the Joel Embiid Rookie of the Year? I mean, Joel Embiid himself forfeited it the other night. Like, you just, the guy played 31 games.

I'm sorry. Part of being in the NBA is playing in the NBA. Like, I just, I don't know. I can't get there. Not only was it just 31 games, but it was like, what, 800 minutes? I'm sorry that part—it was very exciting. He's by far the best member of this class of rookie-eligible guys. But it's not even close.

The rest of the—we're talking about a guy who is— Sarich was drafted three years ago or two years ago, and Brogdon is going to finish second. Maybe Jalen Brown is making a late push, so you have a second round pick and the number three pick who was out of the rotation for a little bit. I get that these are not inspiring choices, but I'm sorry that it would like being, it would like being voting for writer of the year to a guy who wrote half a column. You just have, you got to play.

It's part of the game. You just have to play. I don't know how we got to – oh, the Croats. That's how we got on this. Give Dario Saric Rookie of the Year. I would urge everyone to keep an eye on Jalen Brown on the Celtics and what he's been up to lately. He's good, man.

He belongs. He's a good player. He's not Croatian, though. He's not Croatian, but he's playing 25 minutes a game now, and Stevens is having trouble keeping him off the court in the fourth quarters and I don't know I there's some Paul George Jimmy Butler level type of potential with him as a two-way guy I think I I love every check mark he's passed so far this year so you have four or five weeks left. If he's going to play 25 minutes a game

the rest of the way and he's going to keep making 40 plus from three and keep highlight plays during the game, that's going to add up, I think. I think he has the best chance. Saric, though, I think that one's been good and yet another hinky, right? Hinky.

Yeah. Hinky's been vindicated. But that was another vindicated uh we'll see if any of them we'll we'll see if any of them play like yeah i think they played yeah oh i had one last question for you and then i know you have to go um is boogie cousins on new orleans next year uh yeah i'll say i'll say yes um well i bet they're going to trade him can we leave the door open all right you can always leave with look you can there they've been a train wreck since they got him and they're going to miss the playoffs so you can leave any door you want open but i think i think on the order of like potential franchise changes in the offseason that's at least below firing the coaches uh in likelihood yeah

the interesting thing is they if he makes all nba and they have cap room they have to at least try to extend him i think and if he says no to that that'll be interesting um they may not have cap room depending on what happens with drew holiday but uh i got it i'll say yes. You say open. The door's open for you. Yeah, I think that Lakers pick, if the Lakers can keep their pick and it's a top three and it's not – there's faults in ball are the top two and then it drops off a little bit after that with guys that are really good. But let's say they got the third pick. I could see them flipping it to New Orleans for Boogie. So you're the Lakers, right?

The Pelicans just got DeMarcus Cousins for Buddy Heald. And let's say it ends up being the eighth pick in the draft or something like that. And guys who are not going to matter long term. And then the Pelicans stink for the rest of the year. Not necessarily because of DeMarcus Cousins or whatever. They just stink. He doesn't lift them to a new level. You look at that and say his trade value has increased to being the third pick

and maybe one of my young players. I get that the Lakers looked at him, and it appears, according to Ramona Shelburne, to have been part of why the communication, part of why those guys, Mitch and Jim, were out so suddenly then. But I just don't think you can look at that and say, let's offer something better. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's the Lakers will do it anyway to get a star in there. But that's just me.

You could argue No. eight, Buddy Heald, in one of the top picks of the second round, might be better than the third pick in this draft. I don't know. It really depends on how it washes out. The New Orleans-Sacramento part of this whole, and Philly, and all the chicanery that could happen with those picks, you know,

if Sacramento gets in the top three and Philly gets seven, Philly could just swap picks with them, which I don't think people fully realize. Sacramento could win the lottery and have to flip the pick to Philly because of that ridiculous Stauskas trade. And then you have the Lakers.

You know, when that card, the Lakers are going to have the second worst record. So right around pick five, when the envelopes are going to have the second worst record so right around pick five when the envelopes are being unfolded if that lakers envelope is five or four that's gone that goes to philly too so there's there's a scenario where sacramento could win the lottery philly could get like third and then the lakers envelope could be fourth or fifth they could have three of the top five picks oh no they could no they'd have to swap I'm sorry

they don't get both yeah I screwed that up but they could have depending on how it all shakes out I mean they could have pick one they have a better chance at pick one than normal but then they could have four or five I mean they have two of the top five picks in the best draft of the decade the basketball gods the basketball gods have a big day

in may whenever the lottery is because we're going to see what the basketball gods yeah think about some stuff like i think the basketball gods have to consider punishing sacramento for making one of the all-time worst nba trades and not understanding the rules and we'll see what the basketball gods think of the all-time worst NBA trades and not understanding the rules. And we'll see what the basketball gods think of the Lakers firing their lottery representative, PR guy John Black, who did so well in previous lotteries for them. You know, that is, you know, he protected this pick twice already. He's clutch, clutch with those ping pong balls.

He, like, makes a really good fist under the table when things go well for the Lakers. Like, I i don't know who they're gonna send man i don't that's the i'm talking about the back room the secret room like he's he gets the job done in there yeah and the and by contrast the celtics have just never found that guy maybe they should hire john black or maybe hire him as a consultant for the ping pong thing i I like that. I like that. Yeah, that'd be ballsy. Stealing from the Lakers. I can't wait for the lottery. I can't wait. I think it's the best lottery since the Duran Oden one.

Why don't you come? Come to New York. Come to the lottery. I'm going to be a mess. Are you kidding me? If the Celtics can get one of those top two it's a it's this is it like if they got faults that guy's gonna be but you just gotta view it as like this is such a huge win anyway even if it falls to four like this is all like it's not quite gravy but it's pretty damn

close you guys come for the lottery it's so fun it's you get to hobnob with all the nba higher ups and the agents and the players and then maybe you can get in the secret room which is not even that secret anymore. There's like 20 reporters in there now. You'll have a great time. It's not a secret. Zach Lowe, this was fun. I missed it.

Stay safe in the blizzard. We can read you on ESPN.com. It hurts to say that, but that's where you are. That's where your pieces are. And your podcast, The Low Post, still chugging along. Any good guests this week on The Low Post? I had Kevin Arnovitz yesterday. Oh, we'll see.

We'll see. We talked about the playoff races, and we hit a bunch of teams yesterday. But, yeah, we'll see what the rest of the week on the Low Post brings. All right. Yeah. Subscribe to the Low Post if you're not already. This was fun. I miss you.

Talk to you soon. Thanks, buddy. All right. Thanks so much to Zach Lowe. Thanks to SeatGeek, our presenting sponsor. Don't forget to go to SeatGeek.com or download the free SeatGeek app. Thanks to Proper Cloth. Stop wearing shirts that don't fit.

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Don't forget to listen to Titus and Tate all week on the T-Dub podcast as they walk you through every single step of March Madness. Don't forget about theringer.com. Don't forget about Pearl Jam's 25th anniversary. Go to PearlJam.com to find out more because things are about to heat up this

spring. And we'll be back later in the week with two more podcasts, including one guest that I've never had on the podcast before, which should be a fun one. I don't want to spoil it, but it's an owner. Yeah. It's a professional sports owner. He's on this podcast. You'll have to wait and see. Thanks again to Zach Lowe. It was great to have him on. See you soon. I want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.

On the wayside, on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.