The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 40: Abby Wambach

Episode Date: December 15, 2015

HBO's Bill Simmons brings on international soccer's all-time leading scorer Abby Wambach before her final game with the US Women's National Team. Topics include: 2015 World Cup experience, her evolving fame (7:00), Women's WC vs. Men's WC (13:00), gender pay gap and fixing FIFA(16:00), turf vs. grass (24:00), a possible TV career (30:00), why she thinks Jürgen Klinsmann is the wrong US coach (37:00), concussions and youth soccer (42:00), career disappointments & triumphs (1:00:00) and her last game (1:09:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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that includes postage and a digital scale. Go to stamps.com, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage, and type in BS. And we're also brought to you by HBO because they were nice enough to give you my own TV show that launches next spring. And now I present to you, Abby Wambach. Yeah. Clear enough for you.30 p.m., USA versus China. So, Abby, why now? Why is this over?

Why are you ending this? I mean, why not? It's been 30 years. I'm excited. I'm happy. I'm closed. I have this sense of closure that I'm content with. You know what I mean? And I think that as a pro athlete,

you've got to know when it's time to hang up your boots. And for me, i probably have been feeling this for a pretty long while but without that world cup it's been hard it's been hard to walk away when you say pretty long while like how long we talking um i would say i would say probably about two years it's been it's been a bit of a struggle. I've been struggling with just not, you know, your body gets older, you slow down, your passions start to change, and, you know, doing the same thing over and over and over again becomes a little bit old, but the reality is not having won that world cup was like the only thing that kind of like kept me coming back and and kept that fire still lit inside me and um you know and of course

as you get older you slow down and um you know you got all these young kids that are just you know nipping at your heels and all they want to do is take your spot and score as many goals as you have and have all the things that you've been able to do and the things that you've earned throughout your life. But the reality is they have an entire career that they need to go through to get to where I'm at. But I'm connected. I'm happy. I'm finally in New Orleans.

My family's here. Um, you know, it's going to be an amazing night. I'm really excited. You said you've been playing for 30 years. What, when did you think you could actually do this or do you not even realize that it just kind of keeps going, keeps going all of a sudden you're in college. Oh wait, I should keep going. Or was there a time when you were like 7, 8, 9 and you were like, I can do this?

Well, I mean, there was really like nothing to look up to. You know, like that's what I think is so valuable about where I've been able to go throughout my career. I just kind of have let it, like, evolve in an organic way. And, you know, I think that nowadays, you know, some of those kids out there that are looking up and they see us in a position maybe to do what they want to do and be what they want to be, I think that value is priceless. And, you know, I didn't have that growing up. I didn't have that ability to look up. You know, one of my idols was, like, Michael Jordan, you know,

until I got into high school when the national team kind of got in a little bit more recognition. And then, of course, in college when they won in 99 um i was able to look up to to mia and julie fowdy and christine lily and all those women that but that was you know pretty late you know like if i was five six seven eight years old to look up and see somebody doing what i would want to do or even that like what i could possibly do um When I was five and six, that wasn't even an option. So it was really literally just a dream. And to have it come to fruition, it's been a pleasure. It's been my honor.

People are like, gosh, thank you so much for everything you've done for USA. And I'm like, well, I mean, let's be honest. I'm the one that's been honored and has had all the pleasure being able to do it yeah that 99 team was the breakthrough team that's been covered a million times but your career has basically spanned I don't know this whole century do you feel could you feel it even as the century was going along like more and more girls between i don't know five and 18 just coming up to you day after day did you feel like you're becoming more famous as that century went along yeah i think that i think that the fame thing really took off in 2011 yeah you

know 2011 was kind of you know that that the barrier breaker for this specific team because, you know, 99 was a huge deal, and Mia obviously was the face of that team, and rightfully so, because she's not only one of the most prolific goal scorers that this game has ever seen, but what people don't know the most about her is she's really one of the best soccer minds that I've ever had the opportunity of playing with. So for me, after that 2011 goal that, that happened, um, you know, most people

think that we won the world cup because of that goal against Brazil, but we didn't, you know, and, and the irony, I think in the whole situation is coming home and feeling like we actually made this huge positive change. We came home more famous, more popular. And in fact, we didn't even win. It was just because the way we won in that quarterfinal match wasn't even the semifinal. It was just the quarterfinal match and uh and i think that that's something that's been that i'm really proud of because you know having the opportunity to to play for my country is one thing but then

you know when a 15 year old boy comes up to me and and and shakes my hand and says you know what when i grow up i want to be a women's professional soccer player and play in the World Cup. I think that that's something that kind of transcends sport. Because for a 15-year-old boy to say that, it just means that us girls, we win, and that's what they, you know, they love the fact that we win, and the 35-year-old dads are excited

and running around the house after that goal goes in so right we did a podcast i think in march you me and alex morgan and then a few four months later you guys won the world cup and most watched soccer match in history and you the whole team was like a bunch of rock stars after that you especially i saw you at the espies and you were you know there are a lot of celebrities at this party we're at and you were probably one of the biggest. When you guys came back, just let's talk about how was your life different? Did you feel like there was a different kind of spotlight on you? Yeah.

Um, you know, and it's, it's really interesting. Um, especially when you go to like FDs or Glamour. I was able to go to Time 100 dinner and to see some people that you've watched, whether it's through movies or sports or whatever it is, to have an admiration for what you do, what you've done for our country, there is something really special about that. And when you walk the red carpet at the SDs

and you see all these big-time NFL players or big-time NBA guys, like, yo, dude, that's Carly Lloyd. You see how sick she is in that final game. And, and, and, and for me, I love that because that just means that, that we're not seen as just women's soccer players. Like we're seen as soccer players.

And that's the, that's the whole point here. And that's, that's what gets me so fired up is because we as athletes play, train, blood, sweat, tears. And I've done it for so long, you know. And some of these younger kids hopefully can do it for the length of time that I've been able to do it. because the winning is when the respect comes from across the aisle, from the men, from the guys who make the millions and millions and millions of dollars in those crazy, crazy contracts.

And I think that's one thing that we can do to improve and push that needle a little bit more towards an equitable form of payment. And yeah, fame is something that you have to deal with it. It's all part of the package. You can't ask to have one of the best jobs and do one of the best things in the world and be the best in the world at it. You can't expect that without having some side effect, without having some things that maybe aren't the most fun.

Getting interrupted in the airport or at dinner, mid-bite during dinner. I don't mean to interrupt you, but can I have an autograph? All that stuff is all part of it. And if you want to grow your sport, if you want to grow the game, you've got to take every bit that the game gives you, and you've got to go with it. It frustrates me a lot when people, because it can be annoying for sure, but it frustrates, it frustrates me a lot when people, um, you know, turn away a fan or, or get frustrated by anybody recognizing

what you do, because I think what, what we all do as pro athletes is inspire and entertain and entertain people. And that's huge it's important but you also had this happen i mean not like you weren't famous a few years ago but it's a different level of fame from this year in the last couple years but it happened in your mid-30s if it had happened when you were 22 how do you handle it i don't know that's That's a tough one. And I think, you know, when I was 24, we won the gold medal, and Mia and all those old ladies, now that I'm old, I can say that they're old. Right.

They retired. And I wasn't nearly, obviously, as famous as Mia was, but I felt like, gosh, I need to make sure that I do something that I kind of keep grounding myself after every world championship. Because the more times you play for a country, the more famous you're going to get. And I just didn't want to get myself into a position where I was looking at myself differently and I found that I was my, that I was famous. You know, I don't, I don't, I don't feel famous, you know, like if you knew like what

my hair looks like when I wake up in the morning, like you would understand why I don't feel famous because I don't look famous when I get out of bed in the morning. You know what I mean? Like that's what people don't get. Like, famous people are normal. You know, like, we all, I mean, some of them aren't normal, by the way, but most famous people, you know, they do normal stuff. You wake up, you eat breakfast, you do things that every person on the planet does and and and the fame is definitely

a part of what we do for our sport but if you're 20 uh does it does does it affect you differently probably but i know myself and um i know that i wouldn't have had any different kind of level of effect. I do know now that at 35, I'm very, very passionate about wanting to make sure that that 25-year-old is getting the right kind of form of payment so that they can do whatever they want to do when they do choose to retire. And that's something that I'm getting and growing even more passionate about day by day. And, you know, come the last second I play tomorrow, I will be even more passionate about it because my paycheck stopped coming from U.S. soccer. Just for the math, math is pretty interesting and this is something you've talked about publicly but i'm sure a few people at least

who have listened to this don't know the math you guys won 15 million bucks as a team for winning the world cup in 2015 in the men's World Cup in 2014, Germany won. They split up $575 million. So that is 39 times as much. The runner-up team, Argentina, got $25 million. So there's two separate arguments going on here. One is that you're talking about pay equality just for the world cup and it you know you could make a case the men's it's bigger the ratings are better across the board or

something they it should be higher or you can make the case your gold medal game in the u.s was the most watched soccer game in the history of of uh televised soccer here and that it should be the same. My question is, how is it 39 times more? That seems insane. I was shocked when I saw that. When you guys hear that, what is your reaction? Well, here's the thing. So ever since I announced my retirement, I've been able to have really cool conversations, you being one of them, and pick people's brains to try to really figure out what is really going on here and why there's such a disparity, not just in my sport, but in other sports also and also in different industries. And there's this innate thing that I think is deep-seated in all human beings,

that women are less than, that women don't deserve to be treated fairly, that women, if are in a negotiation with their boss, are seen as the B-I-T-C-H word. And if a man goes in and says the exact same thing, he's then a great negotiator for himself and his family. And I think that our society is pushing towards a place where we need to really start looking at each other as people and not put each other in all of these boxes. And this equality thing doesn't just go from, for me, between men and women. This equality thing is in all.

Now, I'm talking about the big e here i'm talking complete equality i feel and it's not because you know if you go down down and cut it down to what what what the reasons really are that the men get paid way more than the women in soccer. Yeah, I understand logically the argument about the ratings and the men and it's more global and whatever. But what people forget, and I think what people don't understand, is that that doesn't mean that that's right. That doesn't mean it makes it right. You know, equality isn't something that actually costs anything. And I know we're talking about gender pay gap differences here, but to be treated fairly doesn't actually cost a single cent, not one person. To treat somebody humanely, to treat somebody fairly,

to make a decision that lessens that gap payment and that gap difference, it wouldn't cost anything. It would be just a decision. And I think that it's so funny to me because when you say those numbers, I know they're staggering. And when you're in it, you don't want to fight too much against it because you're thankful for what you're getting. Right. You don't want, you don't want to seem like that's the reason you're playing exactly because and the reality is is we do well for women's athletes however when you look across the aisle and you look at a jj

watt and you look at an aaron rogers and all these guys who are my friends don't get me wrong i love those guys and i'm a huge fan of what they do, but they are getting so much money, and I'm telling you, what those guys make is even crazier than what the difference between the

World Cup wins was like. Like, I mean, people have no idea the difference between the men and women and what men and women earn. But at the same time, though, you're talking about soccer and tennis are the two sports. And it's and it shifted in women's tennis for a while. It was just insane, especially because the women's tennis players in a lot of cases were bigger draws than the men and with with you guys versus the the men's soccer in the last couple world cups it's really started to feel like it's even but then you look at something like the wmba versus

the nba and it's hard to say that wmba players should make as much as nba players when nba players are getting you know 50 to 50 to a hundred times the attendance and merchandise, all that stuff. So how do you, like, how do you fix that? Totally agree. And, and, and the irony with that is, is, you know, the NBA owns the WNBA, you know, and, and I think that there's this, you know, you, there is no perfect fix. I'm not a professor that is going to fix this problem specifically. I think this is going to take time. Do I believe that women deserve to be making more than they're making?

Yes. And I think that there's a lot of women out there that, you know, the Women's Sports Foundation and even ESPNW, you know, they're trying to do their part. But I also think that they're pathetic versions of what things really need to be. I want to attach myself to something that looks strong and beautiful and powerful, not just pinked and shrinked and that box checked. That's not my version of what I want to do in my next life. I want complete equality, you know, and that includes men. I'm not saying I want to have a company or a business and a structure that only has women and empower women. You know, women need to help each other. And I know that women's soccer and tennis kind of trendset in certain ways, the structure of how much we get paid. But when you've been beaten down so long and you're in it, it's hard to really understand

what your worth is. And I think that that's what's really important. The WNBA players, they have to go overseas to supplement their income for their off season. Well, wait, it's worse than that, though. I was going to ask you about that. So Taurasi, who's the U of basketball and the best WNBA player and the best women's basketball player of all time, leaves the WNBA last year because she can make, like,

five times as much money in Russia. Yep. And that's it. And that's their reality, you know? And I know Diana, and I think that that was a really hard choice for her because she wants to grow the game here. Yeah. But if you're being offered five times as much money in a different place, that's a hard no. That's a hard thing to turn away from.

And I think that people get so focused on the money and it's not about the money. It's about the worth and what you feel internally, what your self-worth is. And I think that that's the more important thing. Quick break here for Personal Capital. Their free financial tools make it easy to manage finances, track investments, and grow your net worth. And it's all in real time. Do you need an investment checkup tool or a fee analyzer or a sophisticated retirement calculator? Do you need to speak to a financial advisor and get personalized portfolio guidance at a lower cost? Do it with Personal Capital. According to Macworld, they are the best free finance tracking app available. Head over to personalcapital.com slash BS to link your accounts.

And in seconds, you'll have your own personal financial dashboard. Get three months of free advisory services if you enroll right now. That's personalcapital.com slash BS. Well, it seems like you have two different games going on here. One is the long-range goal of gender equality for payments. But then the short term goal is just what's happening. Women's soccer is really effed up. And if the men's World Cup, the winner that gets 39 times as much as the women's World Cup, that makes no sense.

But that also speaks to some real problems with FIFA, which I'm sure is dominated by men, and they don't give a crap what the payment quality is. But also, FIFA is the most screwed up organization we have. So of course they're going to screw this up. But it seems like to fix the payment thing in soccer, you also have to fix FIFA. And God knows we've had way too much trouble trying to do that. Do we ever fix FIFA? How do we do that?

That's a great question, and I think that I'm lucky in some ways in regards to FIFA, probably fairly unlucky because they know that I'm not scared of them. You know, we sued them before the World Cup this last year because, and it ended up being too late. We filed our lawsuit too late. And so they were going to slow play it. And it would have been a waste of our time to continue suing them. Right. About the turf.

Yeah, about the turf. Because, you know, the judgment wouldn't have come until after the World Cup ended. So whatever the law firm we were working with, they just decided that it wouldn't be worth the time or effort. But wait, just quickly, you had somebody ready to replace the turf with grass before the World Cup, and they held it up and made it so that the timetable got screwed up and it wouldn't have been able to happen in time. Yeah, no. Scott's was ready to give them free grass. so that the timetable got screwed up and it wouldn't have been able to happen in time. Yeah, no.

Scott's was ready to give them free grass. Right. FIFA didn't have to pay for a thing. Not for one cent. Yeah. And they're like, oh, well, we don't have this. And, you know, they make up every excuse. And whatever FIFA wants, FIFA does. And so for me, yeah, my long-term goals and equality and gender and whatever,

diversity, those are big time goals. But in the short term, there needs to be, especially right now, because there's a lot of reform going on in FIFA and there's obviously a lot of corruption that we've seen that's taken place, which doesn't surprise me why things and why that needle has taken so long to kind of tip towards the, even get near the middle. Women haven't been involved. Women haven't been involved in some of these decision-making positions. And that's okay on some level for 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago. But now that women have been playing women's football for a long period of time professionally

and that they can have a voice and they can have the education and they can go back to school when they're done playing or have the education and then play professionally, women are given and have more opportunity. So why not put them in positions, especially with an organization that has so many women participating in it from the ground up? It just makes no sense to me. And clearly that's something that I'm passionate about.

Well, you're also talking it's year 17 in a month for the 99 World Cup team. And that was the tipping point for women's soccer. And that launched so much momentum in so many different directions. And now you're talking about two generations now that were affected by that team. You have the generation that was any girl between 6 and 14 when that team was doing their thing. But now you have the generation after like you talk about some of those 15 year olds in 1999 are now 32 and they might have a five or a six year old. So, you know, it just feels like things should be different.

The turf thing, just watching it from afar, not really, you know, just reading the stories and stuff was dumbfounding to me because I don't think people realize how hard turf is on your body. Like even my daughter's soccer team, they practice on turf. And we had a parents versus kids game, you know, like one of the last practices for the holiday. And we played them for like an hour and a half, which was great. I was taking out kids. You would have been proud of me. Um uh the next day like my back hurt my legs hurt my knees hurt not in a typical way like i'm in pretty good shape i was like god it's like playing on concrete and the fact that they thought that was a good idea for you guys for the world cup was insane and then you see what happened last week in hawaii when did rapinoe get hurt was that

last week or two weeks ago yeah that was last week when we were in Hawaii. As far as the field turf whole situation goes, the worst part is not every field turf is the same. And that argument can be made for grass, which is fine. However, if the field turf has not been replaced in 10 years or 7 years, there's a length of time that every field turf field needs to be replaced it hasn't been replaced then it's way more dangerous the blades of grass are more matted into the into the actual turf stuff starts popping up you get

little dents yeah i mean it's just bad you know's bad all around. And the worst part about it, and this is what frustrates me the most, is that you go to a high schooler and you ask her or him, what would you prefer to play on, grass fields or field turf fields? And they're like, oh, field turf fields. And my jaw drops. I'm like, holy cow. How can that be the case? And it's because in high school, the grass fields are never taken care of.

No high school has the money to take care of their grass fields in a way that would be positive, in a way that will make it flush and play well on. So the consistency of the field turf fields is actually more important and more reliable for some of these high schoolers. But as you get older, and for me, I just don't want that generation to want this field turf stuff. Because I think, you know, and I'm crazy in my mind and I'm not afraid to say what I feel. I think that in 10, 15, 20 years, it's going to take somebody to get cancer from some of these little black pellets, some big time athlete to get cancer from some of these big, like the little black pellets that you find in these fields or fields for this issue to

actually become more of an issue. Yeah, that's a, that's a real, that's something I don't think a lot of people know about. But like if you're a parent who has kids playing on these fields, the pellets, everyone's done the whole Google deep dive on those pellets and how safe they are. And they come from tires and they might cause thing. And there's been a cancer cluster over here. And all of us have read all of those stories. And to be honest, I don't know what to think. And I don't know what's true and not true. Yeah, well, there's been a study in the Northeast that the UW coach, she's a women's soccer coach, there's been a bunch of cases of women, of female goalkeepers that have been diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma. Right, because they're diving, skating, getting scrapes. Because they're the ones that are diving. They're on the field. They're closer to those pellets.

And it's just scary. It just is a scary thing. And the reality and the irony of the whole situation is that people think it's more cost effective. That's why they're doing it. And, in fact, if you actually do the research and the data behind it, it's not. It's not cheaper to have these field turfs to take care of because you need to actually take care of the field turf field. The problem is people aren't taking care of the field turf field. That's what makes them really dangerous.

And, you know, grass is the way that soccer is meant to be played. The reason why I was so adamant about it before the World Cup is that this is our senior tournament. We're not talking about a high school state championship game here. We're talking about the FIFA Women's World Cup championship being played on field turf. That, to me, and I don't even care the fact that we won it on field turf, but the fact that we had to do that, that we were put in a position to play our major tournament, our biggest tournament on field turf, is pathetic.

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There's no soccer person out there in the media who is really not afraid. Just will 100% let it fly, doesn't give a shit, and with something like this turf thing, would just go the whole night. Like, if there was a basketball equivalent in basketball, Barkley would be the one that kind of grabbed the reins and really, really pushed it. And that's why I think, you know, I know you want to do a million different things, but I'm really hoping, like, especially with Fox has all the tournaments coming up the next few years, I want you on that set. I think you have a chance to have a voice and a forum and the amount of eyeballs that are on those games.

I think that not only would be great for you, but it would just be great for people who like watching TV. Is that something you think you'd want to do? That's a great question. And, you know, we've talked privately about this before, but I would love the opportunity because, man, I do like to talk and I am opinionated. Everyone confirms that you like to talk. Clearly. But I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I'm going to be passionate about.

I'm sure I'll give it a try. I'm sure I will figure out an avenue in which I can be and have a platform to stay in the game and talk about soccer and maybe some of the things that people don't really talk about um and maybe i like it maybe i don't i'm not sure but i'm i'm i'm pretty open to anything right now my aperture is really wide i'm just trying to make sure that um i'm not closing myself off to any idea or

opportunity because you know i mean and gosh i can do an hour countdown. Um, I, I, I essentially lose my job. I'm, I'm jobless. So if you know anybody that, uh, is, is looking for, for somebody to, to hire me, you know, give me some names. I might be one of those people. Um, on TV, the best part about you is that you don't give a shit and you're going to let it fly. And that's what Barkley is like. But I do feel like there's going to be moments, whether you're doing a women's game or a men's game, and they're coming to you at halftime and you don't like what you saw from somebody. And that little voice in your head is saying, Abby, don't hold back.

Don't say what you really want to say. And you're just going to say it. That's going to happen. I'm going to have to have to say it i'm not because here's the thing and this is what this is what pissed me off so much over this world cup some of the younger players they were like god like we're getting crushed in the media like they're killing us and i'm like they should be killing us we haven't been playing well right we haven't been scoring goals like we haven't been playing like we know we can like if you don't think that yourself there's something wrong with you yeah if you aren't your own worst critic there is something really wrong with you you shouldn't

be in pro sports if you're not your worst critic and for me i've always been my worst critic so if anybody were to say something about me i would would be the first one to be like, you know what? I actually probably thought worse about myself in that position because I could have done X, Y media if I've been given that position. I don't care. And you know what? I'm also going to go toe-to-toe with big names like you, Bill, with big names like Alexi, like with Rinaldo. If I disagree with some of their assessments of what's going on, and I'm not going to try to positively spin it,

I'm just going to say I don't agree with you. I think that you're just trying to make a statement so that your voice is heard the loudest right now. And I don't care. Let's give it a test run right now. So the men's national team, a little dissatisfied in the last few months. If you could fix one thing about that team, what would it be? Oh, man. I would definitely fire Juergen. Sorry, Sunil.

Sorry, U.S. Soccer. But I don't think that Juergen and the litmus test on him has worked. Why hasn't it worked? Well, I think that he's tried to change. Well, first of all, he hasn't really focused, I feel like, enough attention on the youth programs. Although he says he has, I don't think that he has. I don't agree either.

And I also believe that the way that he has changed and brought in a bunch of these foreign guys is just not something that I believe in wholeheartedly. You mean like hired guns from other countries, basically? Exactly, and I don't believe in it. I don't believe it in my heart. That doesn't make this... And I love Jermaine Jones. I love watching him play. And I love Fabian Johnson, and he plays in Germany and is actually killing it right now

after being sent home for faking an injury, quote-unquote faking an injury. But, you know, I just think that this experiment that U.S. soccer has given Juergen isn't one that personally I'm into. And, you know, it's got to be interesting for those guys to see their coach take off in a helicopter and fly home to his home and then back to training. Can I be your agent? I want to negotiate your Fox deal. You want to negotiate my Fox deal.

Isn't the key to the U.S. team speed? Isn't that our one best advantage? We're never going to beat these guys that were bouncing out of the womb and playing on dirt fields in some, I don't know, Brazil and Colombia, some of these countries. We're never going to have kids at that level, but we have speed and we have athletes. Isn't that the secret for the men?

Well, yeah, I mean, absolutely. Speed and athleticism helps soccer teams be better, helps soccer players be better. But I think what you'll find over the next 15 years is that the more money that soccer players can make in this country, you're going to find our better athletes will be getting more involved in playing soccer. Right now, you know, NFL and NBA and Major League Baseball, our big major leagues are getting our best athletes because that's where the money is. Right.

But the football, that's what's happening in football and youth football is going to help the soccer long term. I completely agree. my generation of parents huge downturn in football with all the concussions and all that stuff yeah I I completely agree with that and I think that you will find all of the best athletes are going to start playing soccer because there's actual money like real life money in it and and and because of that the speed strength, I just, we're the United States. We should be competitive no matter what. And because we've taken so long to bring up some of these studs that could play on the soccer team, you know, we need to put more money into our youth programs and really get some of those kids to be playing in positions

and ways much like Messi and Ronaldo. And you only find a few of those every generation. And for our women's national team, our standard is so high, and it's been so high, that that's the thing, that's the culture of this team. That's the environment. And that's the environment that it needs to be with the men's team. But they don't have that.

They don't have the mentality that every single day it's brutal. Every single day it it's brutal. Every single day, it's pushing yourself. You know, we won the 15 World Cup, but now we have the 16 Olympics, and it's like, okay, we still have to be better. And that's the only way you kind of grow as a group of people and grow the game and be the trend-setting team of the game. And I know that that's what we take pride in as a women's national team. And I want our men to win.

I'm one of their biggest fans. You know, I'm the disappointed one when they don't win that last World Cup or the one before. Do I think that one day it's possible? Yeah, like I dream of that for our men's team. I really do. But I also think it's an environment, and it's also an ego drop. When you get into those big-time tournaments, people have to step up and play their part and play their role. But you also have to drop egos.

And there's just, it seems to me, too many egos in our men's program right now and i think the bigger the bigger ego of all of them is the one that's leading the charge fix uh fix concussions with youth soccer for me youth soccer and concussions this is this is an interesting one because, you know, heading the soccer ball, all the research points to the goal kicks, right? And that being probably the most head, the most impact that head takes on the field. But the reality is it's head-to-head concussions. You know, it's not ball head. It's head-to-elbow.

Right. Two kids going for a header at the same time one of them does the head header jerk with their head but misses the ball and headbutts the other kid exactly you know and that's where and that's and that's what's happening and so i think that this concussion ban uh was a knee-jerk reaction that U.S. soccer took for 10 and under, and only in games can they head from 11 to 13. I mean, in an instant, it created a business for me. I was like, well, hold on a second. We need to create a system where these kids are properly taught

the actual technique of heading because you're not going to get rid of heading. You just won't. It's part of the game. What you need to do is put some of these kids, younger kids especially, in an environment, in a controlled environment, with maybe a softer ball to teach them the proper technique and how to do it so that when and if they do get themselves in a soccer game

and a ball goes up in the air like it will, they will know, number one, how to head the ball, and number two, how to protect themselves when heading a soccer ball so that they're not getting that head-to-head contact or elbow-to-head contact. And the third and the most important thing, and this is what parents and all kids in the world need to remember, your child, I get it, you want to protect them. Every person on the planet, we don't want to get hurt.

We don't want our brains to have any concussions. But sports, our sports, doesn't mean that you need to put your kid in a harmful environment. Will my children ever play football? No, because I truly believe that that's putting them in too much of a harmful environment for my liking. However, do I think that soccer is a harmful environment in certain moments? Yeah, of course it is, but sports are. So you need to put your kids in environments where they're pushing themselves, they're outdoors, they can be physical, they can be active, they can be exercising.

You know, concussion debate, it's just going to get worse. It's going to be one thing or the next thing. You know, like if it's concussions for this 10 years, fine. And another 10 years, it's going to be something else. And pretty soon we're going to be robots like walking around the streets with padding on, not wanting to touch each other because there's this fear or somebody sued you of getting injured and injured. And for me, that's just not, that's not real life. You know, I want, I want real life. I

want happy kids. And, and, um, you know, I, I've headed the ball quite a bit throughout my day. And, uh, and, and, and, you know, if in fact at 60, 70 years old, I get dementia, you know what, that's 60, 70 years old. And I've lived a pretty darn good life. I've loved everything that I've been able to do. Um, and, and I've traveled the world. So you make decisions in life. You got to go with it. Well, all right. I agree with you at the same time. I have a 10 and a half year old daughter who plays soccer year round and is tall and loves hitting the ball and loves being in a crowd and, and still hasn't successfully put off a header in a game yet, but it's one of her goals.

And she loves watching you and tries to emulate you in a lot of ways. Are we, could there be a concussion cap? Could there be a little hat? Have you seen any technology that would maybe make it so that something absorbs the ball or is that impossible? What have people told you about that? Yeah, I mean, I work with a company called Triax, the little headband, or if you play a sport with a helmet, you have a skull cap that has a little sensor in the back of this headband or this skullcap that measures head impact.

And you can get real-time information on your smartphone that tracks it. And I think that, you know, obviously the more technology as a professional athlete, the better. But when you're talking about concussions and you actually have this little piece of technology with um that that that you can as a parent on the sideline look and be like man my kid just took a pretty big hit to the head yeah and you can check it and it's over this threshold um reading and you can pull your kid off and see hey like how are you doing right you, like what's going on? Um, check them out and or have like your trainer or medical staff, check them out before, before they go back into the game.

Because oftentimes what happens is the concussion goes unnoticed. The concussion goes unseen and, and, um, and, and the continuing to play after concussion is really, when it's fuzzy, we, we have the girls on my daughter's team. They kind of know, like if it gets fuzzy, if you hurt your head in some way and you don't feel totally right, just tell us it's okay. We're not mad at you. And that's happened a couple of times. And kids have come out. We had a kid sit out a game. Like they didn't feel just a hundred percent right. And kids have come out. We had a kid sit out a game. They didn't feel just 100% right. And that's when you got to be careful.

We haven't seen a bad concussion yet. But I do think the mouthpieces, once they fade, there is some sort of connection with the mouthpieces and preventing concussions, too, that I think is going to help. But I'm against the whole just banning headers until they're 14. That doesn't make sense to me. Because you have to teach kids how to do it. No, because what happens when they're 14 and they don't know what they're doing? Right. Stupid. I agree.

So I wanted to ask you about this century. You've been out pretty much for, I don't know. I don't know when you answered questions about it and said yeah whatever um you're the first athlete that I can think of that nobody even mentions this and my question is so you come in you start to become famous as a soccer player was this in the back of your mind like uh-oh is this gonna get out what's gonna happen who are my role models for this but now it's like almost seems like nobody cares no and i think because i don't care right like the thing that people don't know about me and and or maybe they do and maybe that's why you know all guys want to like drink bourbon with me and all girls want to just like hang out and talk girl talk which annoys me um i think it's so important that like for me i just live my my life i'm not

the person that's screaming on the rooftops about myself you know and so when i got married a couple years ago in hawaii and ended up getting out and going on the whatever, you know, TMZ and USA Today. And they actually called our room the morning of. I remember being like, man, who cares? You know, like, this is my life. I don't have to answer any questions, you know. And the irony is I was asked two times before I had gotten married that, you know, are you seeing somebody? And it was like, and I could tell what they were trying to ask. And the actual answer during those two moments was no, I actually was single. So I was like, no, I'm, I'm actually single. And if I were to have been seeing somebody then, I would have said, yes, I'm seeing somebody.

But the reality is it doesn't matter. And people come out, and I think that that's great if that's what they feel like they need to do for themselves. But for me, I kind of thought it's more powerful just to be myself instead of come out. Because Ellen came out like she she did it like there there is nothing wrong with me for for having an orientation that is not the same as the most people on the planet that is okay And I am completely comfortable with myself. Like I went through it in high school. I was like, Oh man, what is this? Like, well, what are these feelings once they're in college? And you know what? I'm kind of one of those people that you like me or you hate me. And I don't care. I don't give a shit either way. You know, I'm going to be me.

You mentioned your big family. I'll pretty much all of them are there for this last game, right? Yeah, they all are. They all are. They're flying down. Where were you in the pecking order with your family, with brothers and sisters? I am the youngest. Right. So that was great for you, right?

Because you're always chasing the older ones, trying to catch up, trying to catch up, trying to hang with the one that's three, four years older. And it feels like that's an athletic advantage in some weird way. For sure. And you know what, when you are the youngest, you get beaten up a little bit harder and your parents don't really pay as much attention to you, you know, as, as before. Um, and maybe the, the eldest child or whatever. Um, but the, but for me, you know, having six older brothers and sisters who were all really athletic. My eldest sister, Beth, went to basketball

and played basketball at Harvard. And then my second eldest sister, she went to Xavier and played soccer there. So I come from a pretty good soccer slash athletic family. And you're just getting banged around as a little kid yeah you know and i mean i actually just went to a soccer game the other day um to watch my nieces play in phoenix it just happened that they had a game and they're like you know five to seven and they don't really know they don't really know aunt ab She's like the famous soccer player. They just know her as Aunt Abby, which is so fun. And some of these kids are just hysterical.

They sit on the sidelines and watch them play. And they have the youngest child, Violet, who is just on the sidelines, not playing yet, but she's just way more fearless. You can just see her fearlessness is just so much more pronounced than her two older siblings. So, you know, that was me. And for my mom to have been all over Rochester just getting us to baseball games and soccer games and basketball games. I mean, it was a full-time job for her.

And in large, she really did give me the opportunity of being a pro athlete for sure. You know, it's funny to have these fields in L.A. where there's 17 of those games going on at the same time with the 5-year-old, six-year-old, seven-year-olds are on these little fields. And my daughter and I were there once, probably like two months ago. Cause she was getting a, she was had a, like a, a private thing, a one hour thing. So we were done and we went and we watched the games and I'm like, let's go watch these games. I'll be able to pick out the dominant kid within 10 seconds each each game we go to so we would walk over and there's always the one kid that's more aggressive and you could just tell and you could tell right away and that's it and you'll watch for 10 minutes and that's the

kid that's taking out everybody but it seems like that's in there from when you're like five like that's not something you develop after the fact. You either have that or you don't. Totally. But my question is, so what's the next level? Because I see it now in my daughter. She's only 10 and a half. Every parent thinks their kid's going to go to college and play soccer. But really, it's really hard to know until they're like 15 or 16, right? There's some sort of second leap that happens down the road.

So when was that for you? This is going to sound really weird, but I think that the first time that I played in a soccer game, my mom knew. Really? Yeah, she knew. So how old was that? I was five. I was five. I was five. And she said, just because, I mean to have to put you on a different team.

And maybe at some point switch you, you know, play you up a few years. And they say nowadays, you know, like Malcolm Gladwell in his book, he says, you know, not to do that because you want to make sure that you're on the best team and you get the best coaches. Your 10,000 hours can be put to use in the best way. For me, I totally don't, for my lifestyle and my natural abilities that I was given and then compounding that with my brothers beating the hell out of me when I was a young kid and not letting me win and kind of creating this competitiveness inside of me, I knew fairly young that I was going to be a good athlete, you know, and I am a fairly good athlete at almost everything that I do.

I was going to say, you're one of the great female athletes of all time, so you might not be the greatest example for this whole analogy because you could have played basketball, right? Yeah, I did play basketball, and now I'm getting into golf, which is a good thing to do when you get older. But the thing that I tell parents is that here's the deal. There's like 1% or 2% of kids in the world that will become a professional athlete. And there's a smaller percentage as well that are going to make it and become a scholarship athlete. So the reason why you want your kids to be involved in sports is because all the values in this stuff that it brings kids.

Exactly. And the confidence that it can give kids and people throughout their life. And learning what it's like to be on a team and how to deal with conflict and all of those intangibles you don't get if your kid is just sitting in front of a TV playing video games. And don't get me wrong, I like myself some video games, but there's a time and a place for that. And getting your kids involved in sports and not pushing them to be anything other than what they want to be, that's the real challenge in parenting. Parents try to turn their kids into little versions of themselves, and that's just not real. Kids need to be versions of themselves, not versions of their parents.

You made the key point. You want to be on a team because you're learning how to be a teammate, and you're learning how to fail. People think you play sports because you're learning how to be a teammate and you're learning how to fail. Like people think like you play sports because you're trying to win, you're trying to win the title, you're trying to get a scholarship, all that. But it's also good to fail every once in a while. My daughter guessed it on a team last weekend and she missed the penalty kick, sailed it over the crossbar. Like it's actually not a bad thing for her to feel like crap for an hour about something because it's going to motivate her the next time. I think parents in my generation are really afraid to have their kids fail

with anything. They're just trying to constantly protect and coddle them and prevent them from ever feeling bad about anything. And I don't know if that's a good way to raise people. No, I agree. And I think that failure have been, failure is the reason why i've gotten to be the person that i am it's not even about the medals and the championships yeah failures are our character building and those are the things those are the moments in life that you get to choose one way or the other how you're going to deal with stuff. And you either choose to become a victim or you choose to empower yourself. Okay, you know what? This didn't work.

How can I make this better? How can I do better so that this never happens again? And guess what? You can tell your daughter, I missed a penalty kick in a World Cup game against Columbia this last summer. What did I learn from that? Okay, we got another penalty kick in that game, and I punished myself. I'm the penalty kick taker on my team. I punished myself because I didn't

follow through. So I gave it to Carly Lloyd. What happens after that? Carly Lloyd's confidence rises. Carly Lloyd has the tournament of her life, is going to probably become FIFA Player of the Year, has the most ridiculous final. And I'm not saying that that's because i gave her this penalty kick yeah i'm saying that because i failed at doing something and and had the opportunity to go oh no woe is me let me try this again but in fact what ended up happening was carly was able to take that and use confidence that she she she got from bearing that penalty kick to her advantage. And we win the World Cup in large part because of the way Carly played in the last few games. She turned into a maniac.

It's crazy. Things like that, you have to be able to let your kids fail because if you don't, they're going to make poor decisions. And that's on the parents, you know. Yeah. So I promise, well, not promise, I would bet that as you're thinking tomorrow's your last game, you think about the breadth of your career,

the three or four failures that hurt the most are probably more poignant to you than the triumphs, right? The failures stick in your craw more than anything. I would probably, I would be safe to say that most successful people in life have that mentality. They don't think about, oh gosh. You know, like you do. Like if you have confidence issues,

you have a few things in your back pocket that you're like, okay, no, I'm good. But for the most part most really driven successful people are thinking about those few moments that brought you to your knees and and you weren't able to succeed and and you were embarrassed about so what was your worst one um I would say not winning a state championship, the 2007 embarrassment of getting crushed against Brazil, and then the aftermath with hope and all of that went down. Yeah.

Just really embarrassing. Breaking my leg in 2008, not being able to go to the Olympics, and my team, in fact, um, winning, winning gold without me. Um, and then, and then in 2011, um, not coming home with the world cup. Cause you thought you were way after you got the miracle goal in 2011, you just assume it's going to roll to the world cup and it's great. And it's over. Yeah.

I'm thinking, wow, well, well, here we go. Like this, this is, this is what it's supposed to be like you know it's supposed to feel like this where we are we're gonna win and and and i'm having this amazing tournament and i'm gonna get get player of the tournament and be player of the year and um we come in second and sawa is player of the tournament and Sawa is player of the tournament, and Sawa is player of the year. And you're in your prime at that point, too, right? That's about as good as you can be. Yeah, I'm 31, and a little bit older than prime.

They say around 28. Tail end of the prime. Soccer player's prime. But I'm playing some of my best soccer. And it was, in my mind, what I felt like was our time. But clearly it wasn't. and I took that pretty hard. I took that pretty, pretty hard, and 2012 ended up being one of my best years to date.

So triumphs going in high school when the penalty kicks, when they threw you in goal, that was a good one. I saw that in the SEC story about you. Yeah, that was a fun one. I love that one. SEC story about you. Yeah, that was a fun one. I love that one. He just hit the ball straight at me, though. That's the irony of that whole thing. Yeah, but you psyched the girl out.

You were like banging the goalpost trying to psych her out. I was, but you know, the girl didn't move. It was freezing because I'm in upstate New York. Yeah, it's a cool story to tell. Yeah, I say it was kind of like penalty kick in a Section 5 championship game. But the reality is the girl was just, she was probably tight. She hadn't moved in her spot for like, who knows how long it took me to get the jersey on and to try to set ground and whatnot. You know, I watched that with my, I don't know if I told you this story.

I watched that with my daughter. And she loved that part so much. It was like her favorite thing she'd ever watched. That they threw you in goal and you tried to psych the girl out. And we watched that with my daughter and she loved that part so much it was like that her favorite thing she'd ever watched that they threw you and go and you tried to psych the girl out we watched that whole thing and she enjoyed it so much knowing that once upon a time you were basically her age because you know you guys reach a point and you become these mythic figures and it's sometimes when a nine-year-old or a ten-year-old realizes that you were this she's the same age as you were at one point in your life.

It's a big thing for them. And I remember I called Connor, the guy I created 30 for 30 with, and I was like, this should just be a show, just be a show about how athletes became who they were, because that was like the best part of that whole thing. And now it's a show called becoming on a Disney XD,

but it's basically that the principle behind it was you jumping in the goal in that game so you didn't get any royalties yeah you didn't i should be getting royalties for this bill i'm not getting royalties either so we both got screwed out of this whole thing well i know connor and i'm gonna have my agent call him you should you should get a cut get a hold of Skipper, and I'm pissed. So what was the highlight was the goal in 2011 and then winning the World Cup, right? Those were the top two? Yeah, I would definitely say.

College championship? Yeah, college championship was cool. 0-4 gold medal game, scoring to send my idols off into Never Never Land. And then definitely that Brazil goal, bringing women's soccer back to life in the U.S. and then capping it off with an Olympic championship the year after. And then the World Cup. I mean, this last year has just been insane. I have spent so few days in my own home and my own bed.

If you had to do it over again, would you rather have won the World Cup by the 15-1 score or whatever the final margin was? Or would you rather have had more of a nail-biter? No, I wanted it to be 15-1. Because first of all, not getting as many minutes as I had in previous world championships. It is the most stressful thing, sitting on the bench and having no control over the outcome. I think years were taken off of my life this last summer because I was so stressed. What were you doing? Were you sitting? Were you doing the thing where you jog in place?

Were you sprinting? How were you handling it? I'm sitting on the bench. And then every every once in a while you got to get up and and keep your body warm if in fact somebody goes down with an injury um so i'm sitting and i'm obnoxious i'll be i'll be quite honest i'm obnoxious on the bench and there was a moment during the final that simula ru actually turned to me and was like, you know, we're up like four goals to nothing or something. And she's like, all right, enough. Like, stop screaming.

And Japan scores. And I'm like, Jesus, this is not happening again. Because my state championship final game, my senior year, we were winning three to zero, yada, yada, yada. We ended up losing. And so the game is the game. So for me, as fast as we scored those goals, I believe that Japan is as good of a team as any in the world to be able to do the exact same thing. So I'm, like, mindful of that.

You know, like, I get sports. Sports are weird. They're not over until they ever are over. And I've been a part of some of those moments. So obnoxious, call me whatever you want. I'm just glad Carly Lloyd was on my team that day. Last thing, and then I'll let you go and get ready for the last game of your career. Although you might play some celebrity soccer games and stuff like this.

This isn't really the last game. It's your last competitive U.S. soccer game. Can you just quickly for 30 seconds, do your spiel for all the parents out there about how stupid it is to just have your kid play one sport? Oh gosh, I would not. Okay.

So your kid probably here, here's, here's the real, the real dose of truth. Your kid probably won't play pro sports. Sorry. Yeah. But what you're doing is you're teaching

your kids valuable lessons, not just teamwork and all that stuff, but you're also teaching them how to be an athlete, how to do athletic things. And when they get older, if they've had more opportunity to be an athlete, to learn different kinds of sports, then they're going to have more opportunities to want to stay fit and be active and be healthy and go outside and get involved in, you know, whatever rec league games that you want to get involved in because you've learned those tools as a young kid. Now, for me as a pro athlete, I was able to learn how to jump, how to rebound when I was playing basketball. And it's the only reason why I've scored so many goals with my head that I have. And so at the end of the day, I believe wholeheartedly that kids need to play multiple sports, not only because it will help

them in whatever sport they choose to play in soccer or whatever in high school or in college or even beyond if they're lucky enough but it's important to play multiple sports as a kid because kids were all add like you can't stick to one thing all year round and guess what parents what the soccer clubs are doing out there in terms of making your kids sign up for a year-round process just so that they can make money. Hello. Be smart. Come play in our December tournament.

Oh, send us a check. Yeah. Exactly. I'm in. You know I agree with you. When I took my daughter to your practice in March with the U.S. team and you guys were having a scrimmage, so there's 22 people on the field, then there was like another five who weren't in a scrimmage so there's 22 people on the field then there was like another five who weren't in the scrimmage like you know backups or whatever a couple people

were injured and i pointed to the five to my daughter and i was like those see that girl over here she's probably like the 24th best american soccer pro in the world and she's over there like that's how hard this is. You're not going to become Abby Wambach. It's not happening. But you might have a chance to get in this game. Who knows? Odds are really against you.

I mean, really against you. Yeah. I mean, the air is thin up here in certain moments. Yes. And that's also something that you've got to... So play a lot of sports. Kids need to have dreams. Yeah. Play a lot of sports.

What'd you say? I said play a lot of sports. Yeah. Play a lot of sports. Kids need to have dreams. Yeah, play a lot of sports. What'd you say? I said play a lot of sports. Yeah, play a lot of sports. Don't stick to one. Rec league might be good for you when you get older. Yeah, play some hoops, play some tennis. But there's going to be those percent kids, the small percentage of kids that do make it.

And the air is thin, and it is hard, and it is brutal. Every single day you're pushing your body past limitations that you never thought possible. And that's what it takes. And it takes consistent commitment. And it takes a lot of hard work. You know, those are just the ways of the world. And if you can get comfortable in that environment, you might have a chance. Are you going to cry tomorrow night?

I don't know. I've been a wreck lately. I'm not going to lie. You're not afraid to cry every once in a while. No, I'm not afraid to cry for sure. I am just, I like, late at night is when I lose my stuff. I'm just, I don't know. I don't know.

I want, I'm either going to cry or I'm going to like just be happy and party afterwards. Fox Sports 1, 8.30 p.m. tomorrow night. Abby Wambach's last game. One of the great female athletes in the history of this country. I'll be watching. The Simmons family will be watching. This is not the last time you're coming on my podcast, by the way. Okay, well, when I create my podcast, you have to come on mine.

Yes. I promise you. And if you create that podcast and I'm not involved, I'm never talking to you again. So, so I'll just come on the podcast and not say anything. I'll give you the royalty check. You're the one that gave me the idea. I love you, Bill. Thanks, Abby. Good luck. All right. Bye-bye. Today's episode was also brought to you by my friends at SimpliSafe and their incredible holiday offer. My listeners get $100 off a special security package handpicked by me featuring entry and motion sensors.

SimpliSafe is already the best value in home security. No contracts, no commitments, and now $100 off my handpicked security package. Go to SimpliSafeBill.com to save $100 on possibly the best home security deal you'll ever see, simplysafebill.com. And thanks to SeatGeek, the presenting sponsor of both the BS Podcast and Channel 33. Subscribe to both podcasts on iTunes, Stitcher, or SoundCloud. Thanks to HBO for giving me my own TV show that launches next spring. And thanks to Abby Wambach, who is the absolute best.

Love that lady. I'm rooting for her to do great things. Play us out, Pac. We about this bitch. Anytime y'all want to see me again, rewind this track right here. Close your eyes.

Pitching me rolling.