The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 54: Friday Rollin' w/ House, Michael Schur & Wesley Morris

Episode Date: January 22, 2016

HBO's Bill Simmons and Joe House break down Panthers-Cards (6:00)and Pats-Broncos (18:00), then esteemed TV showrunner Mike Schur lays out the worst case scenario for Pats fans and life as a 21st century Boston fan (39:00), then Wesley Morris discusses the Rondo/Kennedy saga & ODB vs. Carolina (1:04:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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shipping and 20% off your first order let's go oh boy snow unfortunately it's not it's not snowing on the East Coast. Unfortunately, it's not snowing dollar bills. It's snowing snow. Oh. For Joe House. How many inches are you getting there in Washington? None yet.

It's coming, though. I was there last year when it snowed, and you guys got like five inches, and the whole city shut down, and it was like you got hit by a tsunami. It was amazing. I've never seen a city less prepared for snow. It worked out great. We ended up having a really easy time getting to dinner. We could make reservations, no problem, downtown. That worked out nice.

This one's going to shut the whole joint down. I mean, they're calling for 20 to 30, and the last time we had anything of that order of magnitude, everything was shut down for a week. I'm worried about Kornheiser. I don't know if he can handle the snow and the cold. The big concern is power. If we lose power, we're all F. Now, Tony, I'm sure, you know, he's a fancy pants. He probably already made a reservation at a hotel somewhere and probably has a way for somebody to get him into that hotel. Yeah. I'm just a regular dude.

So I tried to do that my own self. You know, I'm trying to be a little forward thinking here because I'm not going to let it be Sunday, you know, mid afternoon and not not have a way to watch the football games. Right. But everything's all booked up. And, you know, I have no way of getting to anywhere other than by foot. Well, President Obama, if you're listening, invite Joe House over to the White House to watch the football games with you.

He doesn't have a place to go. Hey, snow and cold weather and ice and all this stuff, it really feels like it could play a factor in this Carolina-Arizona game, right? Well, Carolina's right in the bullseye. They're going to get it, obviously. They're probably getting it right now, the start of it. And it's supposed to last 24 to 36 hours. So by the time the game rolls around, all of the precipitation will be done, but it's

still going to be cold and there's going to be, you know, um, 500 tons of snow at the joint down there. Um, I hold on. I want to, I want to talk about that game. Wanted to mention, we have a couple of guests coming up after house. Um, Mike Shore, who's on Andy Greenwald's podcast on channel 33, actually just grabbed him after he was done with the Andy podcast and made him talk about the Pats for a few minutes because he's a diehard Pats fan like myself. And then we had a podcast earlier in the week with Wesley Morris where we carved out a whole section about Rajon Rondo and Bill Kennedy and that whole thing and about Odell Beckham and the Panthers and I thought it was interesting enough to take out of the podcast because it was so long anyway so we're putting

that on at the end of this but right now we're going to do football picks because that's what we do every week I'm 5-3 in the playoffs what are you? 4-4 I should be 6-2 oh no I should be 5-3 I should be six and two. Oh, no. I should be five and three. I should be five, two, and one because Arizona screwed me over

by being completely unprepared to stop a Hail Mary pass after the guy had already thrown a Hail Mary pass in the same drive. How is it possible? How is it possible when it was the exact same play, he threw the exact same spot he threw in the Detroit game? I mean, it was an amazing play, and I respect the blitz and the whole thing, but at least know that on that play, he aims toward a specific spot and be ready for it. But wait, wait, why do you respect the blitz?

Aaron Rodgers has demonstrated through the entirety of his career that he has a certain elusive ability. He can get away from the blitz. That's Bruce Arians. And he needs very little time and space to launch the ball 70 yards in the air and 80 yards down the field. Now, he didn't have to do that on Saturday because they got all the way to midfield from the miracle play on the goal line, the first Hail Mary. Right, fourth and 20. Yeah. field from the miracle play on the goal line, the first Hail Mary.

But once they got to the 50, they were like, oh, God. I mean, the real Hail Mary, the second Hail Mary is definitely in play. That's a flick of the wrist for him. What a terrible gambling loss if you had Arizona. I had them on a tease, so I didn't actually lose money, but it hurt my feelings because I came very close to

tweeting out, like, this is why you can... I would hate myself so much if I bet on this. Never bet on football. It was going to be my tweet. But I was like, oh, that's kind of bad for business. Definitely bet on football. And then Sal and I bet on... We had a whole thing.

We had a great weekend and decided to throw some of the profits on Pittsburgh, who should have just outright won the game. And then all of a sudden it became a push. And I still don't know how it happened. I thought they were going to win the game outright, and we didn't even win money on it. You guys didn't do the money line. You did a spread bet.

I got it. It ended up being money line. You did a spread bet. I got it. It ended up being a push. It was a weird weekend. The only, I think I've picked every, I guess I didn't pick the winner for Pittsburgh. But anyway, I feel like I have a nice handle of this. And I'm excited for this weekend because I think I know who the Super Bowl teams are. So let's talk about, even though it's the later game, let's talk about Carolina and Arizona first. Carolina is favored by three points at home.

I'm going to make the case for Carolina, and you tell me if you agree or disagree. Carolina minus three. Weather, I don't care if it's going to stop snowing at that point. The field's going to be probably a brick. It's going to have that cold post-Blizzard feel to it. The field's going to be a mess. It was a mess last week. It's going to be even more of a mess this week.

I look at this game, and for me, it feels like the worst-case scenario for Arizona, a team that normally plays indoors, that succeeds with speed and the dome, all that stuff. They've won a game or two outside. I think they lost in Pittsburgh this year. But this feels like the worst-case scenario for them. I agree with this.

They want a nice field. They want good weather. They want their receivers running around doing stuff. And now this is like a kind of ground-and-pound Cam Newton game. And I don't trust Carson Palmer. How about that? How about that? How about that? So let me, I have only one weird stat for the entire analysis today and it applies to this game.

It's Arizona coming off of three straight home games, which goes to your point of the comfort, whether it's sort of actual comfort or even just psychic comfort, rode underdogs a horrid, horrid 0-11 against the spread when coming off of a three-straight home game if they won the last game. So that's a nice thank you, Big Al, for that little angle. But, you know, it fits what you're describing, plus Carson Palmer. Yeah, he had some moments in that Packers game where you just thought,

oh, this is Carson Palmer. I've watched this guy for the last 15 years. I mean, he had an outer body experience this year. He's great. I think he had like 34 TDs, 11 picks. But he also had a fleet of receivers. And then he had three different running backs who at various points of the season were more competent than any running back the Patriot had including the rookie

that that that has been going uh the last few weeks David Johnson but that's his name right David Johnson yeah David Johnson all these guys they've had so many running backs I can't even remember who who's who um but, I thought, had some moments in that game, a little deer in the headlights-y. I loved what Collinsworth... A little shaky around the red zone, right? Collinsworth murdered him for that pick in the end zone.

It was terrible. It was terrible. Indefensible. And you know what's crazy is, I feel like not enough attention was paid to the grotesque mismanagement at the end of the game that called pass play. It was awful. He missed Fitzgerald by 25 yards.

Maybe it wasn't that much. It's right out of bounds. How can you call a pass play? Have you not watched Carson Palmer this whole game? One out of every three throws is sailing on the dude. Right. So in overtime, they call an awesome play. I think Arians, they had two plays that they were just kind of holding in their hip pocket.

One of them was the play that broke Fitzgerald for the 75-yard run or pass run or whatever it was. Yeah. An okay play by Palmer. He rolled out right, had to throw it across his body to the left. Fitzgerald was open by 25 yards and then ran another 60. Can't totally give Palmer credit for that. And then the other play was just a great little sneaky handoff or pitch handoff to Fitzgerald.

That was it. Palmer didn't exactly drive him down now he had a moment in the Seattle game on Sunday night on NBC when they fell behind his line you potty whatever his name is he came out um the line fell apart remember he got sacked in the or the fumble touchdown yeah yeah and it looked like he was, yeah, it looked like Carson Palmer was beating Carson Palmer and then he kind of rallied and got it going. Yep, yep, yep. That was a nice comeback,

a nice bit of poise out of him. The stakes were entirely different. They weren't playoff stakes. And this is, you know, we're still in a playoff. This will be the most important game he's ever played in his entire NFL career. So there's some playoff manifesto rules in place here

that make me feel good about Carolina too. One is like if you pick the road team, you better think they're winning. I'm agreed. Arizona going west to east, outdoors, shitty weather. Carson Palmer, I don't feel great about it, so that's one. QBs, who are the QBs? Look at the QBs. I trust Cam.

Cam's going to make plays. He's going to get stuff done. He's going to get first downs when they need them. I don't know if I 100% trust Carson Palmer. Where do you stand on that one? MVP of the league, 16-1 Carolina Panthers. I trust Cam. The momentum, where's the public, all that stuff.

I think Carolina threw people off their scent because of how they sucked in the second half of that Seattle game. Pretty weird game. They played the best first half I think anyone's played in the history of football. Took their foot off the gas pedal at the end of the second quarter, which was stupid. They had a chance to get some more points at the end. They got super conservative. Seattle got the ball starting in the second half, scored a touchdown. Carolina has to punt. Seattle, another touchdown. Momentum, all that stuff. It was just weird. And then their defense is on field, the whole second half.

I, I don't look down on them for how that second half played out. Do you? No, no, it didn't change my overall impression of Carolina and what they've done all season long. I, they've done that twice.

Now that giants game was the same thing. Right. I, it, it to me is more an indication of how difficult it is to keep up the focus and the intensity and all the rest of it. The teams, the talent on the teams, especially at this point of the season, is equal enough that it's pretty extraordinary for one team

to just beat the crap out of another. And I think keeping that focus intensity for the entirety of a game, they weren't going to win 62 to nothing. So I didn't, I didn't really, you know, knock them down too much for that second half performance against Seattle. All right. And also just think about you're betting on one of these teams, you're betting your life on this game. Do you feel more comfortable with cam at home in like an ugly ground and pound

bad weather game? Or do you, or do you want to bet your life on Carson Palmer outdoors going west to east? I was, I was upset with myself for having a fake bet on Carson Palmer at home last week. Yeah. He is Carson Palmer.

He really is. He really reminded us. He really reminded us that he's Carson Palmer he really is he really reminded us that he's Carson Palmer he sure did here's another one it's a little stupid but it's from the manifesto I'm not saying this is as big of a factor as the QBs or the weather

or the west to east or the outdoors but it's important Arizona special teams sucks they stink they were in the DVOA and there was any of that stuff, but it's important. Arizona's special teams sucks. They stink. They were in the DVOA, our friends at Football Outsiders, they keep track of this stuff. Arizona had the 30th special teams. But Barnwell did a nice job early in the playoffs

identifying all eight teams in the tournament, the Kryptonite and the Kryptonite for the Cardinals was their punt defense. Right. They were among the worst teams in the league, maybe the worst team in the league against defending the punt. Right. Well, and Carolina's got to take in Junior. That's what he does. That is what he does.

So you have bad special teams on the road, cold weather, against Ted Ginn Jr.? I don't know. I just feel like something's going to happen there. And also the DVOA, Carolina's fourth, Arizona's tenth overall. For weighted, Carolina was fifth and Arizona was tenth. I'm not sure why the line is 3. I gotta say,

I don't understand it. I thought it was gonna start at 3 and be there for most of the week, but I thought it would climb to Carolina 3.5. I thought it was gonna be Vegas-Zoney 4-5 in that zone. People don't totally trust Cam. And also, the last thing, and this is also stupid, but

not stupid, but not stupid. It's been, it feels like Cam's year to make the Super Bowl. The whole year has felt like that. It just feels very, you know, it just feels right that he would be in there. And I'll tell you, if Denver is the other team in there, Carolina, Denver, Carolina would kill Denver. So this is basically the Super Bowl for Carolina if Denver wins that first game. Yeah, I mean, this is not going to be a surprise at this point,

being 500 on my playoff picks, not very impressive. Just pick the two best teams. Which two teams look the best all season long, if you look at the entire body of work? New England had its stretch. Brady was the leading candidate for the MVP for a stretch of time. And then, you know, Carolina had its impressive stretch. And they looked

unbeatable until they got beat. And Cam is now going to win the MVP of the league. So, to me, just keep it simple. And I don't think Arizona has a great defense. Obviously, they don't. It's fine. It's okay. It's good. Obviously they don't. It's fine. Yeah.

It's okay. It's good. It's not great. It's above average. Opportunistic. But not the type of defense that's going to go in and hold Carolina to seven points. The thing with Carolina, Tate just popped a boner, by the way. Sorry, this is awkward.

Tate's a Carolina fan. This is really uncomfortable. But Carolina gets to 30 points every week. Every week. They just do it. You don't know how it's happening. You look at their guys. It's like, ah, Jericho Cotri on third and eight?

Like, how are they getting these drives? But they get them. And I don't know. I like Carolina. I think they win by double digits. And my only fear, I really like this Arizona team. Me too. I think if they had had the one seed, I might have picked them.

But my only fear is I do think Arians is a good coach. I think he's a gambler. I think he keeps things in his back pocket for the perfect time. And then you look at how Carolina has gone soft in some of these second halves. That worries me a little. Carolina getting a lead and then letting Arizona hang around. We've seen them play that type of game over and over again this year. And Arizona is a team where if Carolina gets up double digits,

you're not looking and saying, well, how's Arizona going to score? They have the weapons. They can do it. It's just how much do you trust Carson Palmer is what it comes down to. And I wonder if Arizona will come away from this season being like, damn, bad luck. Had to go to Carolina on a crappy weather weekend, and it's too bad, and we should have tried harder to get that one seed.

Well, I don't think they didn't try. I mean, Carolina was undefeated through 13 weeks. Yeah, that's a good point. I take it back. Arizonafeated through 13 weeks. Yeah, that's a good point. I take it back. I mean, Arizona was pretty effing impressive. Maybe Arizona says, damn, maybe we shouldn't have lost to Landry Jones. They lost one of those, right? They lost to Landry Jones and they lost to the crappy Rams.

They had two stinkers this year. It was Pittsburgh and then the last game against Seattle. But they also lost to the Rams. That wasn't a stinker this year. It was Pittsburgh and then the last game against Seattle. But they also lost to the Rams. That wasn't a stinker, though. The Rams, you know, at that point of the season, were doing that typical Rams thing, you know, kind of a formidable, stout defense,

low-scoring, ball-control kind of stuff. Well, Carolina didn't have stinkers. And it comes down to, they didn't have as many stinkers as Arizona, and now they get to host this game, and it's going to be cam time, and I think they win. And Tate's going to be dabbing?

I think it's better if the Patriots advance. I think it's better for them to play Carolina than Arizona. You're rooting for the Patriots to play Carolina if they beat Denver. If the Patriots win, I'm going to root for Carolina, not just because I will have wagered on Carolina. I think Arizona in San Francisco with all their receivers, that scares me a little bit. It's just multiple receivers and just guys going Fitzgerald.

I don't know. It scares me. Carolina, I feel like we could just take out Greg Olson like we took out Kelsey. The thing that's interesting about that, though, is you're preferring a quarterback that is very difficult to contain because of his double threat capacity. I know, but he doesn't. For me, I don't feel like he runs as much as Russell Wilson does. He hasn't been called on to do so, though.

Right. Belichick would figure out how to stop that team. Arizona. I mean, that is the most New England analysis of all New England. Well, listen, that's what the people are paying for. Belichick. I mean, it's like the old Ditka skits. Ditka would find a way.

Denver, New England. That's the early game. For some reason, which is weird. I don't know why they wouldn't have made it the late game. Fox must have won the coin flip or something. Right. Pat's favored by three and a half. Oh, it's up to three and a half now?

That's what I'm seeing. I saw three. Well, it doesn up to three and a half now? That's what I'm seeing. I saw three. Well, it doesn't change my analysis. You love grabbing whatever weird line and whatever weird online site helps you with whatever pick you're making. Guess what? I saw three on stupidbets.com.

I'm not doing that. I'm not doing any of it. I'm just taking the Patriots.com. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing any of it. I'm just taking the Patriots. I know there's a bunch of historical bends to this, angles to this, that support Denver. I know it's Peyton's last home game of his entire career. I don't care. The Patriots are the better team with the better body of work. And they appear to be healthy.

I'm knocking on wood just because I want the game to be between two healthy teams. And I think the two best teams should play in the Super Bowl. I'm seeing three on VegasInsider.com. Yeah, stupidbets.com. VegasInsider.com is a good one. I know. Why are you making fun of me?

I told you I saw three. All right. We got three for the Pats. That's fine. Pats by three. I just took the Pats. I'm taking the Pats. I'm not moving off the Pats.

So you're just basically saying they're a really good team. I think they're better than Denver, and that's my analysis. Thanks for coming, Joe House. Two best quarterbacks. I don't need an angle. The two best quarterbacks in the league all season have been Brady and Cam Newton. That's it. Well, my analysis is going to stun you.

I don't think the league wants the Patriots to win this game. What? Oh my god. Oh my god. Here we go again. I think this is all setting up for the most catastrophic loss in recent Boston sports history. Ed Hockley, the Broncos are like 7-0-8-0.

Oh, no, I saw that tweet. Come on. They're like 7-0-8-0 when he refs. The Patriots have had a tortured, terrible history at mile high, which as you're going to hear from me and Mike Shore after, because we already taped it, but it's been a semi-House of Horrors. It's the place of Rulon Jones and Champ Bailey and losing the AFC Championship game a couple years ago.

Brady's, I think, two and six there. The two places that he's always had a lot of trouble are Denver and Miami. The last time we played there, we blew a game where they took out Gronk's knees and we thought his season was over. Brock Osweiler came in, had the night of his life. He's going to be owning a sports bar in like three years, telling people I beat the Patriots on a Sunday night. Denver just wins garbage, lucky, stupid games over and over and over again.

They've done it all season. I love that you call this your analysis, by the way. Thank you. This is what Denver does. They win stupid games where they get every single call, where nine of the 11 breaks go for them, where they fumble and it bounces straight up and goes to the tight end who runs an extra five yards with it,

where the Manning interception gets dropped by the D-back or gets tipped and goes right to Demarius Thomas. This team has the biggest horseshoe up their ass I've ever seen in my life. It would have been nice of you to have disclosed for everybody consuming this that this was going to be the McSimmons. This is going to be the McSimmons analysis. I'm calling in from Sully's in Dorchester. And let me tell you, that Denver, they horse you up their ass.

I'm telling you guys. I don't know what that accent is. It sounded like you were from the Bronx. And we're laying points on the road. Yes. And we haven't even mentioned the sheriff yet. The sheriff last week is under pressure,

slides for a sack, decides to do a self-sack. It was a give-up. It wasn't a... Yeah, it was a sack. It would have counted as a sack. He slides. Nobody touches him. He stands up and completes a 35-yard pass, and everyone's fine with it. In the judgment of the refs, he didn't give himself up.

Tom Brady has an awesome game in the AFC title last year. They decide that the balls were intentionally defraliated by Tom Brady, even though a phalanx of scientists have now come out and said, well, actually, the ideal gas law explains why balls deflate. And the Patriots probably kept them low at phalanx, whatever the word is. He's almost suspended for the first four games. We lose our first round pick. There's still no evidence that anything happened.

What about the text messages? Text messages. What were the messages? I could care less. It's just, you really think the NFL wants a situation where Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, and Robert Kraft are on the podium with Roger Goodell? God, what would be better than that?

Yeah, exactly. That's why we're not seeing it. That's fine. I don't have any problem at all with all the conspiracy theorizing. This is WWE. This is like, might as well, the Pats are going into the Royal Rumble and they have to put the title up against 29 other wrestlers because Vince McMahon said so. That's this game.

I know exactly what you're doing and I don't begrudge you doing it. What am I doing? I think Denver's going to win. I know. I know. You going to win. I know. I know. You have to convince yourself of this. Denver's going to win the game and I'm going to be really mad.

I'm probably going to break my TV because... You're psychologically and emotionally prepared for all of the mistreatment and the misjudgments that are going to befall your team. It's the manifestation of a year-long campaign conspiracy is going to play out with the fucking sheriff killing us with his little bloopers and Phil Simms talking about how great his

audibles were. Oh, Peyton Manning. Oh, my God. What an audible. The Patriots had nine guys on the line and he audible to a pass. All hail Peyton Manning. Mick Simmons from Sully's. You make a lot of great points there. Oh, you know, Peyton

Manning, just the know-how to throw that pass that took seven seconds in the air before it hit Demarius Thomas, who was waiting for so long that he got hit by 17 defensive backs at the same time and is now being wheeled off the field. But a great look by Peyton

Manning. Great play. I can't take it. I know this is going to be the worst day of my life. I know it. Or one of the top 100. I know it. I know this is going to be a terrible day.

I'm already mad about it. It's going to be terrible. I'm just hoping that I have the power here in Washington, D.C. to be able to watch the game. And my dad's here. And we're just going to be staring at each other going, I can't believe we're losing this game. Oh, my gosh. I can't believe it.

How are we losing this game? Peyton Manning cannot throw the ball faster than 20 miles an hour. He can't move. How are we losing? Like I said, I don't begrudge you doing this. By the way, I'm picking the Pats. I just had to get all that out of my system. Yeah, I'm laying with three. Yeah. just had to get all that out of my system. Yeah, I knew it.

Yeah, I'm laying with three. Of course. I wanted to hear how all of it sounded. We have a much better team. How do we not beat this Denver team? Yeah, I mean, that's right. Denver, I still can't believe that Denver beat Pittsburgh. I watched the whole game through all the way up until.

I can't believe it. Pittsburgh can't believe it. Nobody can believe it. I watched the whole game. How did Pittsburgh lose? How did Pittsburgh lose? That's exactly right. That's the thing.

So I'm taking the Pats. I think they're much better. Can I say much better? I think they're much better as well. And yet I'm terrified because this is what Denver has done all season is they have somehow made up gaps and made up leads and gotten drives and gotten fumbles at the perfect time and gotten special teams plays,

and they've just kind of pulled out games. Their running game has come alive over the last five or six games. All to their credit, the number one seed in the AFC. Right. Starting with a very, very stout defense. Very good defense. I don't think it's a great defense, though. I think you can move the ball on it. I thought Pittsburgh,

you know, Roethlisberger missed a wide-open 50-yard touchdown on the first drive. The saddest thing in the world is that we didn't get to see Antonio Brown on Sunday. Is there any way Denver wins that game if Antonio Brown plays, from what you saw? You can't come up with the scenario. You can't come up with it.

And here's the other thing with the Pats, and I've said this. I said this last week when we broke down. We picked the KC score exactly, which was kind of amazing. Congratulations. For once, we were right. The Pats are going to get to 27 points because they have everybody. If Edelman, Amendola, Gronk, and Brady play all four quarters of this game, they're going to end up at 27 points.

So my question is, can Denver get to 28? What needs to happen? This is fun. Let's try and do this again exactly. I think Denver is going to have five field goals and a touchdown that's that's my forecast so 15 plus seven uh or maybe they go for two and make it eight they're either going to score 22 or 23 points that's my call and if denver anytime they have like a third and nine third and 10 third and 11 third and 12 that's bad

for them. You mean because their quarterback can't throw down the field direct in a straight line 20 yards? I will say not to defend Peyton Manning because Sims and Nance drove me to the point of insanity last week with the praising of him. And Jim, he told us he hasn't felt this good in a year and a half. And then he comes out, he looks exactly the same't felt this good in a year and a half. And then he comes out, he looks exactly the same as he did for the last two years. Exactly. All short passes and outs. Yeah.

He made one great throw to the tight end, Benny whatever his last name is. Was that the one after he took the sack, then they didn't call it and he stood up? No, that one, he gets credit for that being the longest pass completion of the game because the defense stopped. So congratulations. But the game decider was that throw to the tight end that he hit in a really tight spot. That was a great throw. Yeah, but the first half of that game,

all he was doing was throwing quick outs and quick passes. He wasn't going over the middle at all. He wasn't throwing anything deep because he can't. By the way, people are like, you hate Peyton Manning. I really respect the guy. I don't think he has anything left physically. He's basically doing all this with his brain. I think it's amazing.

It's incredible. I'm pro what Peyton Manning's doing. I'm just frustrated when you bet against him or when your team's playing against him. And you're just like, oh my God, you turn into John Lovitz in the Michael Dukakis, George Bush, SNL sketch where you're like, how am I losing to this guy? You just can't figure it out. It's like he can only throw in two spots on the field. So, you know, it's just hard for me to believe that Belichick won't be able to figure out a way to take away the stuff that he does. And then at that point, you know, Broncos are going to have to run the ball.

Their defense is going to have to be awesome. They're going to have to hit the shit out of Gronk. And they're going to have to get a special teams play. I think they are going to hit Gronk. They are. They're going to go after him. They might get that touchdown from a special teams play. Or a defensive play. They've done that touchdown from a special teams play or a defensive play. They've done that against the Pats in the playoffs before.

But I still think it's an offense that struggles in the red zone. There's no hiding that. There's no covering that up. When they get to the 20-yard line, they have a problem getting the ball in the red zone. So the other fear for the Pats is that when they have the lead, because they basically tossed away the running game this year, I'm guessing. They didn't even worry about it in KC.

I think they just tell their guys to pass block, and Brady's short passing is the running game. But that's bad when you're up 10 with 10 minutes left and you can't get first downs. Well, look, if we're going to do the old in Belichick we trust, Steven Jackson, a little jubilation. He looked pretty good. He was moving around pretty good.

I'm hoping. And then we didn't even mention Gary Kubiak. So you always, like, ultimately these games come down to the same factors every year. And a big one is QB and coach versus QB and coach. See, Belichick versus gary cubiak and you have tom brady who just had another awesome season and it looked fantastic last week against peyton manning who got benched after he had nine touchdowns and 17 interceptions midway through the season and then came back because they, I guess they thought they needed his brain more than the Osweiler potential.

As a Pats fan, I actually would be more scared of Osweiler, who's not healthy now. But I don't know. It just seems like we have advantages. He was less inclined to make the kinds of mistakes that Peyton was making. And by the way, Peyton has shown a little capacity for making some important mistakes at important moments in these playoff games. He has a certain propensity for that. Did you think Denver's fans, they sounded super nervous second quarter, third quarter?

You know why? Because Pittsburgh was beating their ass. They were moving up and down the field. And that's the thing. You think about that game. Pittsburgh had the ball twice over midfield, driving to go at least up four. And that first time, the steep offensive lineman gets the face mask penalty, knocks him back to midfield. The second time, the four-string running back fumbled. I know.

Pierre, Trudeau, Prasant, Lassant. But that's the thing. This is football. This is what the Patriots, the first three Super Bowls, the second, I think the second team was basically wired like this. Every game was 3.7 points, but they would make a couple plays and steal it. And you were like, I know this team's not that good, but every week they're winning.

You know, also slightly underrated for Pittsburgh. They had two different chances to kick field goals and decided not to, elected not to. I know, that was a bad one, Tom. The Pats aren't going to make that mistake. I like Gostkowski on that spin there. He's good for, first of all, Denver will not have a kickoff in this game. Every one of them will be in the end zone by Gostkowski.

And anything 55 and in, he's making. I hope. Knock on wood. Oh, I'm going to knock on wood. Oh, boy. But 55 and in, I'm going to rephrase. Anything 55 and in, he could make. Well, you'll at least take the shot.

You'll take the shot. You're not punting from the 38-yard line. Right. 38-yard line, he's coming out. We're kicking a 55-yarder. Yeah. So, yeah, I think Denver has to get to 28 points to win. 27-23.

That's my call. Yeah, I think the Pats have to go either double figures or Denver's going to pull one out of their butthole. And you know what? I might not listen to Nance and Sims. I don't know if I can take it. I think I'm better off not listening to them. What's the radio broadcast you could put on the radio?

I might just have my dad and I just do the broadcast, just talk or just sit there in stony silence as Manning's third and 11 pass bounces over 17 helmets, hits Ed Hockley's right bicep and goes right to Emmanuel Sanders. Oh, I was going to defend Manning. I forgot to do this. He's missing a couple guys that have always been Peyton Manning staples.

Sure. You know, he doesn't have that tight, the white tight end, that kind of clumsy white tight end who's somehow always open, bouncing off dudes. They don't really have that guy on this team. The surest handed. You know, it's always the surest handed guy he has available to him, too. And he doesn't have the Brandon Stokely on this team.

Right. He doesn't have that slot, that Amendola type, that guy who's just zigzagging across, getting open four or five yards. It actually feels like the pieces are mismatched for him on this team. Sanders and Thomas keep putting balls on the ground. Keep putting catchable balls on the ground, too. Right. All right.

So we're aligned. We're taking Carolina minus three and we're taking the Patriots minus three. Sal had some good stats about road favorites in the AFC title game, which made me feel better too. Oh, good. I think they've won their last four. Who did the Cubs take?

The Cubs likes the Pats. Alright, good. Joe House, good luck with the snow. I hope you get to see these games. That makes two of us. Good luck to you and the Pats. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mick Simmons from Sully's Bar.

All right. We'll talk to you next week. All right. I want to talk about our buddies at Squarespace. They make it easy to build beautiful websites without breaking a sweat. You know you can trust in Squarespace for your website needs when millions of people and some of the most respected brands in the world trust in them too. House just launched a new Squarespace site called www.housefromdc.com. He's putting his pics up there. He's putting pictures of food, doing a whole bunch of things,

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off your first purchase. And it also shows support for the Bill Simmons podcast. That's another good reason. Thanks to Squarespace for their support of the bill simmons podcast 10 off your first purchase offer code bs squarespace you should coming up now is a is an interview i did with mike shore uh a short one right after andy greedwell did an interview with him and we just decided hey screw it we'll turn on the equipment we'll talk some pats for a little bit so So here that is. All right. We're taping this on a Wednesday night. Right. That's Mike Schur. Hi.

He did the Andy Greenwald podcast on Channel 33. He's done a bunch of TV shows he's liked. Parks and Rec. You're involved in The Office. That's correct. Brooklyn 99999999. Right. And now you're doing something with Ted Danson.

You're a TV hero. That's right. And by the way, you're a tv hero that's right and by the way you're a tv hero don't put this all on me oh it's my favorite show of all time i like that you've reached the point that you're just like i'm doing a tv show with my favorite person from when i was growing up and it's gonna happen well they nbc i mentioned this on the andy's podcast but they i don't want to step on andy's podcast nbc said you can they they offered me the chance to just do a show, 13 episodes. You don't have to like audition with a pilot.

Yeah. And that gives you, that's a big weapon to use with actors because it's 13 paychecks, basically. Yeah. It feels like a real thing. And so the first thing I did was see if Ted Danson was available because I was like, you might actually go for this. And I knew that the CSI gig that he had was ending and stuff. So I just took a shot. And now Sam Malone

I'm going to write for Sam Malone so 82, 92 this is we're midway through decade 4 of Ted Danson it's amazing nobody's gone 4 decades like this certainly no one's gone 4 decades with this many different characters there's that thing about

Michael Landon you know where he did like 3 shows in 40 years he did like Bonanza Greaton, you know, where he did like three shows in 40 years. He did like Bonanza. Great hair. He was all hair. He was overrated. Low war. Why are you taking a shot at Michael Landon out of nowhere? He can't defend himself. I don't want to step on the antipod. So you're

also a diehard Pats fan like myself and you're concerned. So do your whole theory on why I should be more concerned about this game than I am. First of all, nothing good ever happens in denver no that's true denver miami against denver second of all there's just like there's just too much of like a peyton manning narrative thing that's happening for my comfort of like he came back that you know like by the way osweiler also osweiler has five there's five turnovers in that game very few of them are his fault there's like maybe one he threw the ball

too hard on one that's right yeah and then peyton comes in hands the ball off like 35 times in a row and they win the game and people are like wow peyton's back i mean he lit audibles he was five for nine or something it was nothing for 30 yards it's like the year that flacco in the in the divisional game against the pats was like four for 11 with for 39 yards yeah and they're like wow flacco won a road playoff game no he didn't ray rice ran 83 yards on the first play but there's just a little too much of this like the old the old gunslingers out there again and i that makes me nervous because he's playing at home. I knew the second that they lost to the Jets,

that they were also going to lose to Miami and that they were going to have to go on the road to Denver. I knew, I saw the whole thing unfold. Well, wait, you go back a little bit further though. You're like, you're like that Jennifer Love Hewitt show where she could see things. You saw all four losses. This is absolutely true.

I saw all four losses happening. I predicted they would lose to Denver the first time they they went it just felt like they were gonna lose the injuries were starting to mount up i had a very strong feeling that chip kelly was gonna beat belichick i don't know why i and then everything went wrong did you have a strong feeling we're gonna be up 14 nothing and then have a rugby onside kick followed by four return touchdowns i just felt like it was a trap game it was like every year there's one game where you're like they're at home against this terrible team and they always every and by the way that's not just true of the pats it's true of every team every team in the nfl yeah so and then i was you're looking at those last two games

they're both on the road the first game is the jets with everything to play for and i was like there's there's no way the jets gonna win going to win this game. I knew they were going to win that game. And then as soon as the Jets won that game, I was like, it's over. Miami. I guess Miami. And in the days leading up to Miami, anyone who had a hangnail, they were like, he's out for this game. They made the decision very clearly to not tank the game,

but basically say we would rather to have everyone to have chandler jones and high tower and all those guys who were sort of banged up take the week off and get ready for the playoffs we would rather do that than try to win this game and it seemed like in week 16 and 17 the mentality was let's just try to steal this without actually jeopardizing anyone on our team that's's right. I'm not against it. They almost stole the Jets game. They almost stole both games, by the way. They came back at the beginning of the second half in Miami

and tied the game, or went ahead maybe even, or at least tied the game. They had a chance in both games, but they just decided, they just didn't work. And as soon as that happened, I knew exactly what was going to happen, which was that they were going to win their opening playoff game. Denver was going to win theirs and they were going to go to Denver. And now here we are.

And I just can't. It's very hard for me to visualize them winning in Denver. I wasn't really nervous until Ed Hockeley became the referee for the Sunday game. And they're like, yeah, he's 45-0 in Denver games. Well, there is, you know, stats have proven there is a slight home field bias when it comes to calling plays. The thing about Hockley is that he likes to hear himself talk on the mic,

which means maybe more flags, which means maybe that bias comes into play. I don't know if I actually buy any of that. I just know that most of the bad Patriots memories in big games are in Denver. Like many of them are.

That Ben Watson game where Champ Bailey picked off Brady in the end zone, ran 102 yards. And Ben Watson ran like 170 yards and knocked the ball out. By the way, through the end zone for a touchback. We can all agree on that. No question. If there had been replay, that ball cut. That's the Patriots ball at the 20. I feel like they did replay that though, right?

Wasn't there like a 10 minute delay as they figured out what, or maybe they were just pretending they had replay. I don't remember. Remember there was a long delay? Yeah, that sounds vaguely right. See, the Rulon Jones was worse for me. That one crushed me. And that was on the heels of like Buckner and Len Bias. That's right.

All these bad things that happened. And then we're down three. We have the ball. All Eason Turtles. Just classic Eason. And then all of a sudden it was like, well, we're down five. Oh, this is over. Oh, my season's over.

It was like all this stuff happened once. Oh, we're done. I like that, by the way, that after they've been in whatever, six Super Bowls since then and won four of them. And that memory is still exactly what always that's the red sox thing too right yeah oh the red sox is gone for me that i have no pain i have no pain i have no pain about either team i'm still annoyed at certain things about the about the pats in the past but nothing it doesn't actually bother me like it's

just like oh that that was annoying i've that the eastern part is more annoying yeah isn't it funny like the boone homer was almost like having a tumor but then just having it removed and being fine yeah it was the doctor saying like for a year yeah it was like that's exactly right the doctor saying i'm gonna remove this and it's gonna be really bad and then your life will get much better yeah yeah because think about if we never won in 04 and nothing good happens, then Buckner and Boone combine into this one Uber scar that just haunts us. I mean, I... Now I don't think about it ever.

I don't know. I feel like you and I haven't talked about this that much, but I am just... All I feel is happiness. All of that. Yeah. It's great. Especially the Red Sox. Yeah.

And it's like happiness and good fortune and a a feeling of like after you know at some point brady and belichick are both going to leave in the next let's say three years and i'll still watch the team but it it will actually be even easier to watch with the pats yeah like it'll don't you think it'll be like well now like if when they leave if they go like nine and seven and sneak into the wild card you'll be like hey look at that good Good work, guys. Like right now, the reason this is still tormenting me is because they're in this run where it's like it's going to end. And they and you want you want everything. You just want more.

You're greedy. It's like the way I remember talking to my father in law about the Yankees. He's a big Yankees fan. And he was just like after they won in 09, which was Jeter's fifth ring, he was like, just one more, just one more. And I was like,

you've got to be kidding me. You can't even, he's won five rings. But now I understand it because now it's like, you just feel like you want, as long as this can go on, you want it to go on.

Ours is a little deeper because they ran an orchestrated smear campaign against our quarterback and took our first round pick. That's true. While being unable to understand ideal gas law. By the way, what's your prediction? Do you ever see that data that they've supposedly collected?

There's no way. There's no way, right? Because it's just a law of physics or chemistry, whatever you want to call it. And the information that they collected, if they collected it it honestly just shows what the laws of nature will show and the only way they ever release it is if somehow it it it proves their guilt which it can't because there's no way that the air it's just a law of physics it's like they're trying to prove that gravity doesn't work so i think you never see that data and if you do the data that they show is going to be data that they collected in like miami and atlanta when the playing temperature was 68 and the locker room was 72 and they're like look at this the ideal gas law is made up it reminds me of the oj trial when it was like the

dna and it's there's 99 million to one chance it's not his dna and people are like eh well you know blood who knows and then after 200 CSI episodes you look back and you go oh my god that was his blood that's how I feel at some point we'll get to with the ideal gas law where they'll be like oh yeah it was cold in the game and the balls deflated a little

I got so worked up about it you and I were in a race for who was more worked up about it. I really did. You and I were in a race for who was more worked up on Twitter. And now all I feel is just, I don't care. And it's not that I actually don't care. It's that there's so many other things to be so upset about the NFL about. You know what I mean? The NFL has way bigger problems than this and I

think that I'm actually I'm hurting that I'm causing the problem by focusing on this dumb thing and and so but if we had lost in February we would have blamed the flake gate for distracting us and we would have been haunted by it forever yeah because we still for some reason have a persecution complex after like nine titles. I know. And then like if you're a Vikings fan, you're listening to this going, I want to run both of these guys over in a car. Yeah. Well, that's certainly part of it.

Part of it is just like how, again, how lucky we are as fans. Super lucky. But then the other part of it is that I believe. Look, Andy's listening to us right now. He's just tortured. You're feeling it. I know. He's just tortured. You're feeling it. I know. He's mad our worst memory is Tony Eason

and kicking off to Desmond Howard and Sugarberry Hamilton. I was friends with a guy who was a writer at SNL who was a Yankee fan. And after the Boone home run, he wrote me this long email that talked about like, he knew how I felt. He was genuinely sorry. He didn't know how you felt.

He said, I know how you feel because I remember when it was literally like Billy Martin pinch hit for Bob Horner in some game in 1977. And I was like, how is that the thing? That's the worst thing that's ever happened to you as a Yankee fan is something no one's ever heard of that didn't matter. What was interesting about the Boone Homer and the Buckner-Sharaldi disaster was both times it was like a slow motion car accident.

Yeah. And the Pedro Grady thing, which had been, it just been Grady that whole year. Yeah. Just knowing that he was off and then it finally manifested itself. In the worst possible time. Yeah, but you could feel it coming. But again, the only thing to say about this is that like all of that, no one, no one will ever have that feeling that we had again. The only people who will have anything close to that feeling is when the Cubs finally win the series, which I believe will be either this year or next year.

When the Cubs finally, when the Cubs fans who have been fans all their whole lives will experience something close to what we got to experience. But don't you feel like the Cubs fans, like we were, we, we were more optimistic. That's right. Well, we, the Red Sox fans would always talk themselves back into it. The Cubs fans seem like they've just given up. Well,

they haven't, they haven't, I mean, they don't even, they don't even conceive it. They had made the world series several times and lost in seven games. So we had been better as an organization, gotten closer and lost in more spectacular fashion.

So what the Cubs fans will feel isn't exactly the same, but it's in the ballpark of the same. But other than that, no one else will ever, I mean, you'll have to wait a hundred more years for anybody to feel as good as we felt that year. And then also, by the way, there's four other Super Bowls and two other World Series titles and an NBA title and a Stanley Cup to just throw in there for good measure.

So all of this stuff is so secondary. Greenwald just killed himself. He's literally pointing a finger gun at his forehead. We got a clean Greenwald's body. I think when Cubs fans win, this is a dated reference, but you'll get it. Travolta and the boy in the plastic bubble at the end, which is on YouTube, which is a great last five minutes.

Oh no, Bill, that's not a dated reference. That's very relevant. It's only a dated reference. That's very relevant. It's very topical. But when he gets out of the bubble and he's just looking around and there's trees, that's how the Cubs fans are going to feel. It'll be like they've entered this new universe. Like, oh my God, the blue sky. And there's trees.

But that, I see to me, Cubs fans will be more joyous than that. He was joyous. He's like, this movie's over. My contract's up. I get to do Saturday Fever now. I imagine it being like that video that you can watch on YouTube of the celebration in

New Orleans when the Saints won that's just like pure happiness. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a great one. Underrated. The Saints Super Bowl is underrated. Yeah, just pure euphoria. Yeah, and that's maybe a better analogy because the saints were so miserable and embarrassing for so long and it's certainly more current analogy than the boy in the bubble by the way definitely

watch that on youtube anyone who's listening if you want just a great 70s experience travolta so you think the patrons are gonna lose i my i I very much hope that they win, but I'm very worried. I'm worried about 15 of the 17 calls that are crucial to the game going against us. Manning having his typical two guys drop the interception that somehow goes to Demarius Thomas who's running full speed. Some terrible special teams play in denver last week peyton manning threw himself to the ground they didn't call he dove he literally he self-sacked himself jumped to the ground and then looked around it was a slide it was a slide then he looked around and no one said anything so we kind of like got back up in my mind it took about 45 seconds yeah got

back to his feet the whole pittsburgh team stopped looked around right looked around the refs were like go ahead go ahead yeah okay good payton and he was like really do it and he was like yeah yeah go ahead go ahead and he was like okay and he looked around and he saw an open receiver and threw it hit him for 36 yards that was a key play in the game and like that is if you believe in such things as home field confirmation bias that that's what you would say. So here's the thing. If somebody comes flying in, Andy, admit this. Peyton goes into the self slide.

Right. A Steeler linebacker comes running in and tackles him. Yeah. It's a 15-yard penalty. That's right. But all that Steeler linebacker has to do is touch him with his index finger and he's down, right? So if he jumps on him, don't jump on him. Just touch him with his index finger and he's down right so if he jumps on him

don't don't jump on him just touch him with your hand just touch his shoulder but what but if he hadn't given himself up and he's just on the ground why can't he be tackled he could be but he's a quarterback so basically manning manning's a genius he figured out the one rule the one loophole where it's like if i I slide, nobody can touch me. It was his only good play of the game. Yeah. Well, the real thing to say about the NFL, and this is something that is, I think, their biggest problem, is they themselves don't know the rules. They just don't.

They say they do. Out of bounds, end zone, anything. But I've been hammering this for weeks. Mike Carey has never, when they go to Mike Carey he's anything he says it's like the Seinfeld episode where George does the opposite of what his instinct is whatever Mike Carey says it the opposite is true and Phil Simms agrees with him to compound it but also Jim Nance has to it's like they wake him up from a deep sleep every time he's like whoa what's happening what uh and then Jim Nance has to like hold him by the hand and walk him slowly through what's happened and Jim Nance it's like the most leading the witness thing ever Jim Nance will be like Mike don't you think that maybe in this case

based on what the rule says yeah the what should be called here is this and Mike Carroll go like no I don't it's like dummy listen to what he's telling you with the right answer and then he gives the other answer and then Jim Nance's call was right it's insane but that Ryan Shazier hit in that game in the Bengals game that's the definition of the rule he let he launched himself towards the runner with the crown of his helmet and then they were like well here's the deal he was a runner he's no longer a receiver what are you taught what are any of them talking about I think Nance was right I think Nance has been miserable all season. I think he's trapped with Phil Simms who says nothing. I think he hates

the violence. He's repulsed by the violence. The Cincinnati game really resonated with him in a way that Jim Nance didn't he just didn't want to be part of it. He just wants to get to the Butler cabin. He's just in his head. He's like, I'm going to quit. No, no, we'll take the Masters

from you. In the way superman derives power from the sun he derives power from augusta so that's true he's trying to get there it's a distance from augusta in time is how weak or strong he feels so like when it's i guess whatever april it's like october when it's october it's like he's the lowest energy and it's he slowly gets closer to like Amen Corner. The Shazier hit. Like they're peeling the guy off the turf and Nancy's just spitting. But look, Kevin. Billy Payne.

Butler Cabin. Jacket. Phil. Phil on 18. Phil on 18. I might be in the jacket. It's all good. It's all good.

I got Phil Simms drooling next to me who doesn't know where he is. Yeah, Mike Carey is like an SNL sketch. Yeah. It's like the sequel to judge pitman what is it referee pitman referee pitman yeah but it's also i don't i feel bad for him in a certain way because no one knows the rules they don't the ref the guys on the field don't know the rules they think they know how to interpret them maybe but it's like there's it's just it's too byzantine and they need to just make it flag football and then everything will be fine.

It's where we're headed. Unless they can fix the helmets or something. I don't know. These guys, you can't tell these guys to change how they learned how to play. Right. They're supposed to run fast and hit people. But also the, the, the fandom, like I heard Dan Lebitard debating this in his show the other day.

It's like, what would it take? The game is unstoppable. What would it take for, and like the premise premise was like if someone died in a game and he was like yeah that wouldn't do it like people would you would wait like if a person a player died in a game you would the next week you would still watch the games and like either way i've gone through this a little bit myself where like i got so fed up with the domestic violence stuff that I canceled my Sunday ticket. Oh my God. Yeah.

And so I, I still, but like, I was like, I'm done. I'm not, I'm not going to directly give the league this amount of money. I'm not doing that.

I'm not buying your pink Jersey in October. That's right. I wanted to buy my son a NFL licensed product for Christmas. And I didn't because I didn't want to give the league money. Yeah. But by the way, then like the games are on Sunday night. I still watch them. And like, I'm, I'm going through this weird contorted justification where I'm like, well,

I'm already paying for NBC, right? I'm paying for, it's not the, and it's like, it's just a crazy rationalization because I love the game. It's so fun to watch. Yeah. I like football. I like boxing. I like boxing.

I like MMA. I figured out how to compartmentalize everything. I can't take boxing. I like boxing. Do you like boxing? I like MMA. I figured out how to compartmentalize everything. I can't take boxing. I'm just a bad person. So I think the Pats are going to win. Give me your prediction for both games and then the Super Bowl. I think they have to win handily.

What is handily? If we're in the fourth quarter and it's like three points and Sims is just muttering about something and Nance is getting more and more excited that's what i'm nervous in the league what is what sims and nance are doing i don't know they make because they root for manning sims man uh nance and manning have the same agent yeah nance loves payton manning when when he was handing the ball to cj anderson and the broncos started winning there was a lot of talk from jim nance about how amazing peyton manning great audibles good handoffs i mean nance fred couples when when fred couples

won the masters sure nance literally almost self-combusted like he almost he almost had an explosion yeah um i don't think he loves manning that much but it's like 70 when the when that hgh al jazeera story came out well that on cbs how How dare you besmirch the good name of Peyton Manning. It's like, you're not even, it's just like, whatever. I mean. Oh, meanwhile, you've got Collinsworth. We're on the game winning drive in the Super Bowl. And he's like, and I told Tom, look at my eye.

Tell me if you're guilty. It's like, can I watch my team try to win the Super Bowl? And not think about your media contrived thing? Again, there's a certain amount of persecution complex coming into play here, I would say. I'll speak for myself. Speak for me, too. I do feel like everyone made the biggest deal in the world about Deflategate. And that HGH thing just came and went, man.

It was because of Al Jazeera. If it had been like Yahoo, it would still be going. Yeah, I agree. And by the way, I'll go on record, i couldn't care less if that guy me too who cares i don't no one cares i wish he had i wish he'd come out and said like yeah i had four neck surgeries and i and i took a small amount of a drug that most people consider to be not that big a deal when it's administered properly and it helped me get back on the field and i recommend other people do the same i take it right now if you had it right me get back on the field. And I recommend other people do the same. I'd take it right now.

If you had it right now, I'd pop seven of them. It would have at least kick-started a debate about... And by the way, isn't it true that the league wasn't even... They weren't testing for it then. No, and you might not have even been on a team the next year. Yeah, I don't care. Here's the thing, look around. Watch the game in HD this weekend

and tell me that everyone's on a level playing field. Yeah. I'm pretty sure there's a couple things going on. How about Roethlisberger last week? My God. I mean, what did they shoot in his arm? He basically said like, yeah, I couldn't feel my shoulder. It was great.

Well, also they announced it as a separation. What? You couldn't feel your shoulder? His throwing shoulder had separated. Yeah. He couldn't feel it. Yeah. It's fine though.

Yeah. I can't feel it, but they told me it's fine. There's a certain amount of like Pittsburgh and Cincinnati have that thing. It's why the game was so chippy where it's just about who's more macho. It's Kianis Masmacho. Yeah. It's like another dated reference. It's like Southie versus Everett or something.

Yeah. It's not about football. Yeah. But it's territory. It makes me queasy, man. Even, and I mean, if I were a better person, I wouldn't be watching the games, but I am. Well, after that uplifting preview. So give me your prediction. Give me your prediction.

What do you got? I think the Pats win in double figures or they lose. I don't think they win by four to seven. You heard it here twice in two different ways. Well, I think it's either 10 plus or they lose. If it's close in the fourth quarter, something bad. Just make your prediction to see what you think is going to happen. I think they're much better.

And I think Manning is smoking mirrors. And Belichick will be able to figure out how to take him out. And also, if Manning goes to the next round against Carolina, that could make the Seattle Super Bowl look like child's play. I agree. I think if your job as an omniscient being were to look after Peyton Manning's health and safety, you would have him lose this week. Because I think either of those two defenses in the NFC, it'll be ugly.

Also, America, what's more fun than Brady and Belichick on the podium with Goodell after this DeFleke thing? That's true. And Kraft, who lost his first round pick. I'll say this, too. This isn't going to work because everyone hates the Patriots, and that's totally fine. Not everyone, but almost everyone. But America in general, if you have no rooting interest, you work because everyone hates the Patriots and that's totally fine. Not everyone. Almost everyone. America in general, if you have no rooting

interest, you should be rooting for the Patriots to make the Super Bowl because they've been in six in this era and they've all been good. They've all been really close games. They're 6-0 in terms of good games. They've never been a boring one. Their three victories before last year were three-point victories

on field goals in the fourth quarter. Janet Jackson's nipple. Donovan McNabb throwing up in the huddle. That's right. You two beautiful dads. Last year at Greenwald. Last year in interception at the one. Yeah, that's the best of both.

The two losses are the Tyree game and the Mario Manningham catch down the sideline. Yeah, we're six for six. They're good games. They play really good games. Eagles game wasn't that great. It was more sad and funny. The Eagles fans all quit in the second quarter. By the way, Andy Reid, I'm directing this now.

Oh, Andy, you're right there. I forgot. Andy Reid still doing the same thing. Yeah, I know. He hasn't. Years later. Greenwald knows. That's right.

He knows. All right. Mike Scher, good luck to both of us. Yes, good luck. Thanks for stopping on. And listen to the entire Mike and Andy interview on the Channel 33 pod. All right. We have some bonus content.

Wesley Morris and I went so long the other day that we actually carved some stuff out for the end of this podcast. But before we do that, we have a new season of Real Sports launching on January 26th. I say we because I work for HBO Now. You don't need cable or satellite to watch HBO anymore. Just download the HBO Now app. Start your free one-month trial at some point in 2016. Who knows?

You might be able to watch this podcast on HBO Now. Oh, yeah. You can see me in my MeUndies jogging pants with my glasses on, pretending to listen to my guests as I check my fantasy teams. You'll see it. You'll see all the warts. This world could actually exist. You never know.

Do yourself a favor. Download the HBO Now app right now. You can watch real sports, and you've got Game of Thrones coming in three months. No-brainer. All right, let's get to it. Wesley Morris talking about a whole bunch of stuff that Odell Beckham, Rajon Rondo, Bill Kennedy

here we go Wesley Morris is in town my old Grantland colleague who is now at the New York Times and we taped a whole podcast that was on the BS podcast earlier in the week wanted to talk about one thing sports related to throw in at the end of this

because some stuff happened and you and I were talking off podcast about it, but I did want to talk about it on podcast. Two things that happened pretty close to each other. Weirdly close to each other. Yeah, the first one was Rayjean Rondo and Bill Kennedy. Yes. And then the second one was Odell Beckham,

which three people that you might not think have a lot in common and they might not. But the Rondo Bill Kennedy thing happens. Bunch of gay slurs. The league suspends him a few days after. Yes. For language abusive to a referee or something. Then Bill Kennedy comes out, says, I'm gay.

Right. Now it turns out one of the reasons he did that was because of this whole incident. But it wasn't a gay bashing, but it was. But Rondo didn't know, but he might not have. So it's this whole context of this whole incident that happens where you have to go into it and you say either rondo knew or rondo didn't know and if rondo knew and he berated this guy in a basketball court with 15 000 people there and repeatedly called him the f-bomb this is the exact same situation as isaiah washington and tr knight in gray's anatomy in front of a crew of 50 people. And Isaiah Washington basically never acted again

and was blackballed in Hollywood and had to go counseling and all this stuff. Right. This happens with Rondo. He's suspended a game. Mm-hmm. The catch is, did he know? Did he not know?

But it doesn't matter. It's eight years later. Right. You would think it would actually be worse for Rondo, and it wasn't. So why? Well, there are gay people in Hollywoodllywood for one thing i mean you don't see a lot of in front of the camera but i mean they're there yeah and the thing about

kennedy i mean kennedy is is kennedy as far as i understand was not in the closet i mean he was an openly gay person but he wasn't openly gay to everybody i mean he was out in the way that he needed to be out right and i think that hollywood is a somewhat similar situation and i think that nobody i mean also the difference is that it was ray john rondo versus you know i mean i'm trying to last if if i mean god forbid if denzel washington went on a tirade like that on the set of some movie against, you know, I don't know who. That's a bigger deal. It's a bigger deal, but he continues to work. He did it in Philadelphia in the grocery store.

But that was in the script. It was in the movie, and it was in the service of what I think is his best performance, by the way. Oh. Oh, yes. Okay. We can talk about that later. I love Philadelphia. that's his best performance that was during the jonathan demi run of every scene i shoot my camera is just right in

the face of the person yes and then i cut to another shot of the other person they're talking to and the camera's right in their face it actually worked for like three movies people got tired of that device and i think the same thing was true with spike lee in the dolly shot which you always use um but anyway i think that it's different if denzel if someone if someone like in hollywood if someone like denzel does it i also think that maybe it's not different because mel gibbs i mean i don't know if mel gibson were at the height of his if he had gone on that rant during like at the height of his power at the height of his, like during the lethal weapon days or something.

Yeah. I wonder what the effect on his career. I wonder how that would have affected his career, but at the point in which he had done it in, you know, 2004 or five or six or whenever that rant was, I think he was sort of past his prime anyway. And so it was a lot easier to discard him.

Are you talking about Ronda? No, I'm talking about Mel Gibson. No, I'm just kidding. Oh, wow. Ding, ding, ding. Come on. So, but I think that, but the league is, but all, so here's the other thing.

I mean, I think there's a lot of institutionalized homophobia in sports generally and with respect to different leagues, no matter what you say or do about combating publicly combating homophobia and i think adam silver has done a pretty good job yes in terms of coming down in these incidents and in delivering like some sort of fair and just punishment i think that as we've kind of talked about i mean he was in a bit of a tricky situation with the bill kennedy thing because it was more than tricky because if he suspended rondo based on bill kennedy being gay everybody would have he would like why is the suspension so serious right

right but i mean this is i i know that this is sort of parsing a little bit but i think that that outing is is tricky because he was out, right? Just nobody had said. It's just like it was his business. I knew he was gay. It's the classic thing where this is where we are with sexuality now. It's not ask, don't tell. If you ask me, I'll tell you, but I'm not going to tell you because I have to.

He didn't have to say anything about his sexuality. What difference does it make and so this is the point at which the rondo's relationship to his knowledge of kennedy's sexuality somewhat does matter correct like it wasn't i'm i don't i can't say what rondo did or didn't know but i i would say contextually it's likely that that people in the league kind of know some they know who's gay especially with the south because he had a whole incident with doc rivers and kennedy and he was on that contested right i mean that's not that's still in dispute is it not i mean doc rivers himself is has disputed it what else is he gonna do well oh that's fair that's fair i mean it's true i just knew from

like oh nine on that was always the story i heard and if i knew it living in los angeles 3 000 miles away i'm gonna guess that there's a really good chance rondo knew being on that team that's fair i also would say that one of the problems is that the infrastructure of of these sports leagues reinforces a kind of a homophobia where there's a lot of glass closets there's a lot of people who don't feel comfortable being as openly gay as like i was at grantland for instance, or like, exactly, exactly. I chose to tell you, but it's my business. You know, it's my business to share with your choice.

Other people. I mean, in the same way that like, I shouldn't, but I'm also not like choosing to disclose to you. I've never said to you, Bill, I'm gay.

Like it's just, isn't something that's not how coming out really works now. Unless it's on MTV. Unless, well, right. But then we're going to MTV. That's every real world season.

Having a show. But the thing about the real world was nobody ever came out on the real world. They all got there gay. Well, no, that's not technically true because part of the first episode, there were a bunch of beats in the first episode. With Norman? No, just any any season it was always about about two-thirds in whoever the gay person was had to pull something be like hey man i gotta tell you something oh well moment yes but he already he was gay to himself

oh yeah do you mean it wasn't like he like before he got to this show, he was gay. I think that the thing about the way the closet works in sports now and the way it works, the way coming out or being out or having a sexual identity works is it's not a public thing anymore. I don't think that I think people are now expecting there to be some big press conference where some big athlete just says, hey, all I'm gay. I don't think that's ever really going to happen because, first of all, it's not necessary. is willing to be and it has to be like a huge star and it has to be somebody who is willing to sort of spend a significant portion of his or her life talking about this and only this or it could go the other way and it could be a situation like almost like what happened with Rodman although he was not gay but he was he was interesting he was experimenting he didn't care what people thought he just went did his thing and he was flamboyant and just kind of a personality and it's just he didn't care there was a mystery to him maybe that's how this

would go with somebody but rodman was intimidating for that reason what i'm talking about is the alternative to a person holding a press conference and saying, hello, world, I'm a homosexual. The alternative to that is you are living your life the way you normally would live it. You go to practice, you go to the games, you do a good job, and you go on with the rest of your business for the rest of the day or the week or the month of the year. Your teammates know your situation. Whether or not they like it, that's their problem. And obviously, and this brings us kind of to Odell Beckham, they can make it your problem. Do you know what I mean?

They can make your life difficult. Whether or not you're gay, just to be suspected of, or to be accused of it, is an additional psychological burden. And I understand, I mean, I think for a while the question was, why don't these athletes come out? Like, why aren't they coming out? The reason is, it sucks. Can you imagine being in a place where, like, it only takes one guy to make your life a living hell? I mean, and hopefully what only takes one guy to make your life a living hell. I mean, and hopefully what the alternative to that guy making your life a living hell is some other guys like, shut up, man. Respect this guy's situation.

Like, we don't care. He does a good job on the field, on the court, wherever. I think like the thing that Michael Sam talked about when he came out, which was that the entire team knew about his sexuality and they, they, you know, the claim was that they supported him. Yeah. I think that the idea that if someone came out and it's so funny,

cause I'm tempted to like say all these names, but like if, if a person came out, like what kind of support would that person be guaranteed to have if they came out in a way more than they already are out you know i mean there are people on teams where the teammates presumably know the person is gay and they respect it but i don't think the teams from the from the locker rooms to the front offices want to deal with the sort of national spectacle that comes to their team this is what was so

interesting to me about the idea that there was going to be this like group coming out like a bunch of guys two christmases ago yeah i mean it does sort of diffuse the attention you know like it it makes it more it's like what i'm it distributes the the attention not can we wait a second though can we go back to the woman's World Cup when Abby Wambach kissed her wife? Right. After the game that like 28 million people watched, nobody gave a shit. It's women though. Like women aren't homophobic in the

way that men are homophobic. Like the structure, the institution, the institutional structure of male, the male sports world is just much more comfortable with homophobia than it is with homosexuality well remember 30 years ago when martina was winning wimbledon's and they would cut to like whoever her girlfriend was in the box and the announcer like there's her

good friend uh vanessa they're very very good friends and she's very happy to have but now now they're a little more open but with the men though like with beckham it's clear that there was some form of gay bashing with beckham who's might be gay might not be some form it was like it was bad at one point it was crazy trying to get in his head either because he's gay or because they're just trying to get into his head by calling him gay well because the other because i mean i think like setting aside his actual sexual orientation i mean there was there were videos and and rumors and i don't know is him dancing who knows but he might be it might be like a rodman thing he might just be well either way like you know rodman didn't get treated like that no you know and the thing that

offends me with the beckham situation is the league didn't do anything well of course not well obviously yes but i mean look you have a you have a whole team or like enough of a team saying you know gay slurs to one guy. And there was a menacing aspect to it. The whole energy of the whole game was weird. But here's the thing, though, and this is why I want to bring this up. These are two incidents. The Beckham thing was pretty self-contained

to New York media. It was a football story a little bit in a mainstream way. And then in the gay blog community, like the guy in Out wrote a big piece about it. Sid Ziegler. Right. So that was there, but it wasn't really.

And then it kind of came and went. Rondo Kennedy came and went. We're in the outrage society where everybody gets, this is the kind of thing people seize onto and go crazy about it until we get justice. And it didn't happen here which i thought was strange i will say two things about that i won't forget that rondo did that i won't either and i can't believe you i mean i don't know what i mean i think that i don't think the people

who know rondo did that and have a problem with rondo's having done it will forget that it happened i think i personally i, this is my, this is, I feel like everybody's got a really tortured relationship with the NFL. I know you do. I feel like this for me further complicates any pleasure I get out of watching football. Let's add this to the list of 17 other things.

If the Panthers go to the Super Bowl, I don't know how it's gonna i mean whatever i'll watch the super bowl obviously but it's just it it just makes it a little bit less fun knowing that you have proof that people don't like an aspect of you yeah and that they think that it's okay to use that to get in your head and look there's a lot of smack talk there's a lot of you know sort of disrespectful play in sports and that sort of thing but there's a limit there's a limit like even like certain kinds of your mama cracks like you can't take that but so seriously but what we're talking about if you call somebody an mfr i mean that's like you know yeah that's when you really break down that word that's not a nice word but but nobody it takes an enlightened person with a very thin skin to let that bother you true um but but but

calling somebody an mfr faggot do you know what i mean like a motherfucking faggot that's a different thing right and it like keeps saying it and to like have an entire like have a team sort of campaign like this is how we're getting in this guy's head right right like to wage an entire campaign against your psychology for for a game and the thing that bugs me by that whole that bugs offends me is that there was only one person who got punished for that incident. Right. You know? And the Giants didn't say anything. I mean, at least as far as I know,

the Giants said nothing about the conduct of the Panthers in that game. Yeah. And the league said nothing about the Panthers' conduct. It's hard to believe the 70-year-old Giants coach didn't. But what he said instead was, it's all fine. It's year old giants coach didn't but but what he said instead

was it's all fine it's okay don't worry it's good so it's almost like real life right i mean the 70 year old dad like no no he's fine he's fine he's between girlfriends my big manly son is totally fine don't you worry about that he's fine yeah rihanna yeah it's just yeah i don't know it just it really bothers me i don't feel i don't know and i took a step back from the whole jason collins michael sam hey we're making some momentum and it really feels like we took a step back in the end of 2000 bill it's all lip service yeah it's all lip service at this point i feel like i i am not one of the people who who needs a gay athlete to come out and say to even like sort of acknowledge his gayness in a public way because they're in the league like we know that it's a really tough decision to make it's a hard decision like what you're

giving up you're giving everything up this is the thing that moved me about about bill kennedy yeah and his and is not even coming out but it's just being like dude i've always been gay yeah like shocker it was basically what that statement was but what he also said was listen basically what he said was listen this is not easy and every athlete of of any gender should have the freedom to be who they are and not be persecuted for it by their by their teammates peers bosses co-workers whatever and i think that goes for the entire sports apparatus whether you sit in an office or like you sell hot dogs or whatever you should be able to be the person you are and not be shamed for it, especially in a context where it doesn't even matter.

Like the thing about Kennedy to me that's so moving is like we shouldn't even know who Bill Kennedy is. Right. You know, we shouldn't know at all. It's how he does his job is anonymously pretty much, although he is a pretty spectacular to watch referee. I just feel like he really is sort of taking a hit. I didn't know how to follow that comment up, so I just kind of stared at you. What about Kennedy?

Where you were saying spectacular to watch referee, and I'm like, because... Oh, I just like his referee style. You like his demeanor? Oh, you like his style. His style as a referee is noticeable. Yes, I would agree. You do notice that.

I'm glad you asked for a follow-up if you were bothered by that. Well, I've always known I wasn't bothered. I mean, if you noticed it, I'd thank you for asking. I always noticed him because he was ripped and his shirt's never quite fit. He's also very fit. Normally the refs are either old guys or they're a little doughy or there's a couple in shape ones. And he's the one that's like, wow, that guy must go home and just power lift. Right.

He and Ed Hockley. He was the Ed Hockley of the NBA. Yeah, I don't know. This is a perennially tough situation for me because so many things would have to change in order for it to be worth it for a guy. Or, I mean, basically we're talking about men at this point. We're in this,

but we're in the same spot that we're in a couple of years ago. When, when it happens, it's going to be because it wasn't the person's choice, I think is where we're headed, but it'll be a big star, but it will happen for a reason that wasn't up to him. But what's interesting to me is there's so many,

there are so many almosts out there, basically. And I feel like it's in this it's in not in the athlete, not only in the athlete's interest. It's in the beard. You know, like she's the woman who procures the girlfriends for these guys on these teams. Yeah. So they don't seem gay. This is the missed opportunity on Ballers, by the way. Is that a real show?

It should be. You saw that thing, right? That's on Hulu? Rosario Dawson is the beard.ar epps is back right it's angie quarterback should he come out of the closet he's not before you have to lose right not before he gets his beard the beard right and it'd be like a beard of the week you get some like you get some very famous actress like jennifer lawrence makes an appearance as a beard on the show i mean it could really entourage with yeah right i mean which caught growing a beard growing a beard i don't know a beard some some building a beard some

podcast is gonna have a i think the beard beards beards beards beards a little weird now the beard i think you had it right the beard yeah anyway I think it's an agency run by the league. We'll just say the NFL. The NFL's got like the Olivia Pope of, you know, sports scandals. I got scared when you started saying that name. Why? Olivia Pope? I didn't know where you were going.

No, they've got the Olivia Pope of sports scandals. Yeah. And they basically, her job is to find women for these men who are on the verge of being outed. This feels like a USA show. I just said USA. I think you're right. It does feel like a USA show.

But Ballers. Everything is light and happy and it's set in Miami. Right. There's a lot of scenes of people walking in the beach being like, guys, Out Magazine said they're going to write this. There's a lot of scenes of people walking in the beach being like, guys, Out Magazine said they're going to write this.

There's a lot of scenes like that, but there's water. We got to get... There's water. Kerry Washington. We got to get Rosario Dawson on the phone right now.

And she comes in and is like, what's the problem? I think because Rosario's involved, we could get Chris Rock to EP because they're dating. Yeah. Oh, interesting.

They're dating. How could I not have known that? You didn't know Chris Rock and EP because they're dating. Yeah. Oh, interesting. They're dating. How could I not have known that? You didn't know Chris Rock and Rosario Dawson were dating? No. They've never, I mean, not to be that person. They came out as a couple. I've never seen them out together. I've seen them out respectfully without each other.

We have to go because I have to leave. All right, let's go. All right. Thanks, Wesley Morris. That was fun. Thank you. That was fun. Thanks to HBO Now for sponsoring today's podcast.

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