The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 56: Charles Barkley

Episode Date: January 27, 2016

HBO's Bill Simmons talks to TNT's Charles Barkley about ESPN vs. TNT, the NBA's broken lottery system (5:00), the burden on young NBA stars (12:00), the Bird-Doc fight (17:00), Blake Griffin's latest saga (20:00), Kobe vs. Duncan (27:00), GSW's invincibility (32:00), Curry as an all-timer (40:00), David Blatt's firing (48:00), Boogie/C-Webb/D.C. (54:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's the only security I trust for my special 10% off discount. Please visit SimpliSafeBill.com. And today's podcast is not brought to you by the restaurant in Toronto that Blake Griffin punched the equipment manager. All right, we're off. Yeah. Clear enough for you? All right. Yeah.

Can you picture us rolling? Can you see me on there? All right. As promised, my Time Warner colleague. We're buddies. We're teammates now. Charles Barkley, what's happening? It's about time you moved over to a winning team.

I know. Well, and you were always the smart one. You always knew to stay where you were and to not mess with a place that gave you all the freedom that you enjoy as a creative person. Well, if you're going to do this, you don't want to be a company man. You want to be your own person. Listen, you know, first of all, I like ESPN. Yeah. I mean, you got, yeah, but they have an agenda. Yeah. But they have an agenda. It's kind of like I was telling somebody recently,

the playoffs game's been over like two days, and because they've got a lot of content and BS2 on their radio network, they've already started the black-white thing, Peyton Cam, good versus evil. And see, that's one of the things that really annoys me about talk radio because race is too important to just talk about it flippantly or make up stories about it. And like I say, I've already – because I pay very close attention to what guys say. And you can already see they're already starting the black versus white,

the good versus evil, which is another way of looking at racing this. I mean, you got two of the greatest quarterbacks ever, but I hate phony BS. That's what's got me mad already. And we still got two more weeks of this crap. And you have a special attachment to Cam because you paid him like $10 million to go to Auburn, right? How much did you, what was the final check? Well, you know, I didn't give him anything.

But they said, no, let me tell you this. They say allegedly we gave him $200,000. Yeah. That might be the best money ever spent in the history of college sports. I told my financial people, if I give y'all $200,000 and y'all turn it into Cam Newton, y'all got a job for life. Was that money, was even money like that, to that degree, floating around in the 1980s? Hell no. Man, first of all, I wasn't highly recruited.

Yeah. But I've admitted before, I took some money from some agents. Yeah. And first of all, I think you should be able to do that. You know, because I actually think we should let these college players borrow money. And I'm not talking about $300,000. I think my total was like, I can't remember.

It was, shoot, that's 84. Well, no, I left in 84. So 82, 83. I probably borrowed about $30,000 total from agents. Well, we could tell that from your suit at the draft. You know, listen, man. It wasn't really. Listen, man. It wasn't a lot.

They don't. Listen, when you poll. I wasn't even. We had so little money. We wasn't even poor. We were poor. P.O. And, you know, it's so funny looking at it going back.

Because I get Carl Malone a hard time. Yeah. Because his suit might be worse than mine. And now you see these guys come to the draft, and they only been out of high school for six months. They're wearing $2,000 suits. Times have changed. Yeah, and they have stylists and stuff.

And it was so much more fun in the 80s and 90s when nobody knew. Nobody knew this stuff was going to be on YouTube. Nobody knew what YouTube was. But you do notice a difference. The game has changed. And I'm not some old guy hating on the NBA. I don't like the level of basketball. I mean, you look at the NBA today.

You've got the Warriors. You've got the Spurs. You've got Oklahoma City. You've got the Cavaliers. And you've got Toronto. You've got five good teams in the entire NBA. And that's not fun for fans. I don't think it's not fun for me. Because I don't it's not fun for me because I don't want these, first of all,

I don't want to watch bad basketball, but I don't want to see these fans playing all this money to go see bad teams play. I mean, the players, even when they're on bad teams, they're still making $10 million, $15 million. But I don't think it's good for fans. So my biggest gripe, man, we've got to find a way to keep these kids in college at least two years.

We're bringing guys to the NBA who don't have any clue how to play basketball or help a team win, and it just sucks. Yeah, and it does seem like we're trapped in this lottery system now where, A, it rewards failure. The worse you are, the better draft pick you're going to get and then we're putting these people in situations where you're 19 years old you're carl anthony towns you're just on a young team you have a you have a shaky coaching staff and what are you learning like i look at you you're a great example you you're one of the best 25 players ever but you went to a situation you're in philly you're a kid and you have dr jay and moses and mo cheeks like nobody has that now well and that's my biggest gripe in the nba and you saw the sixers just bought in elton brand which i think would be great you know i had you named all those guys don't forget bobby

jones andrew tony the clement johnson clint risen these guys were like father figure they taught me how to save my money they taught me how to dress uh and they talked to me about things in life and i actually think uh if you and the thing that bothers me i talk about it we talk about kids staying in school look at the 10 greatest players ever now colby brown lebron they're legendary yeah but in my opinion michael oscar bill russell kareem, Wilt, those are the top five. Then you've got Magic and Bird and Tim Duncan. All these guys stayed in college more than one year.

Like Kobe's the exception, him and LeBron, and Kevin Garnett's in that situation. But what's wrong with guys staying in school? It really didn't affect those guys. And I know their agents and their family members agree to pigs. They want them to get to the contract and get to the second contract as quickly as possible. But we've got to find a way to help the league because this is not good basketball right now. Thank God for the Golden State Warriors because if it wasn't for the Golden State Warriors,

there really wouldn't be a reason to really watch a lot of basketball. I know the Spurs got a good team. Like I say, Oklahoma City, I picked them to win the whole thing. But after that, there's nothing happening in the Western Conference. And then in the East, you've got Cleveland. Toronto's playing terrific. But there's nothing happening right after that. Maybe the Bulls are solid.

But the rest of the teams are mediocre at best. There's an easy fix. You were talking about the agents want to rush these guys into the league because they can get to the second contract faster. And I don't think people realize how important agents are in this whole thing. They just want to get paid. Agents want commissions. That's all they care about.

They are not, for the most part, working for the best interest of their clients. But there's an easy fix, right? Because these rookie year contracts, you come in, I think after like your third year, you can start talking about an extension, fourth year, whatever. I think they last five years total. But they could change it so that if you stay in college for two years, maybe you chop a year off that rookie contract. So either way, you're eligible for that second-year contract at the same time. And I think that's an easy fix that would work, and for whatever reason, they won't do it. Because I don't think the kid at Duke, Brandon Ingram,

who I think is going to be really good, I don't think he should be in the NBA next year. He's 6'10 and 100 pounds. He's going to come in the NBA next year? I agree with you. And you look at, I look at the kid at LSU, Simmons. He's a good player. My son.

He's not going to do great in the NBA next year. And there's that one kid at Kentucky who was supposed to be the best high school player in the country last year. He's a mess. And he's struggling. Yeah. I'm like, wait a minute. I'm starting to do my college basketball research now, getting ready for March Madness.

I'm like, okay. Because the best player in the country is the kid from Oklahoma. If he doesn't win player of the year, it's a sham. Yeah. You know, he's been the best player. And like I said, this will be an exciting tournament because there's probably 20 teams that could actually win this thing, maybe more. But it's going to be one of the most exciting tournaments ever

because it's not top-heavy at all, and anything could happen. So that makes it fun. But, man, I want to do what's best for the game. Like I say, everybody's making a lot of money, and your fix is very simple. But when you're dealing with greedy people, when you're dealing with greedy people, it's never that simple. Well, you know, you look at Chris Dunn at Providence, who's really good, and he's also in the running for Player of the Year candidate. Yes, he is.

He's 22. And teams are looking at him like, he's a lottery pick, but also, if I pick him, I lose three years with the guy I could have picked. I could take a 19-year-old, and three years from now, that kid will be the same age as Chris Dunn. But then you flip it around, you look at somebody like you. Let's say they had the rules, or let's say college basketball in the 1980s worked like it did now. There's a chance you would have come out after your freshman year in college

just to try to get the money. No, no, no. I mean, it's easy for me to say no but how do you know well because you you know you're not good enough i mean if you're gonna be really if you want to get paid that's different yeah but a lot of people don't know a lot of people don't know that though like you're more self-aware than some of these other kids like that kid at kentucky shale labassier whatever his name is he's not ready and he's gonna come out and he's not to come out.

And he's not self-aware enough if he comes out, I don't think. Well, you have to surround yourself with enough people. Listen, I know we can't get myself and Michael Jordan, all the guys. We just have a rule. We're going to stay for three years. Because your first year, you have success. Your second year, you struggle. Because they call it a sophomore slump,

but it's really not a sophomore slump. A sophomore slump, I tell people, they just know who you are now. They got tape on you. So you struggle a little bit your second year. So then it's up to you your third year to make that adjustment. Right. And then that's because you're not going to get a lot better between your junior and senior year. But if you make adjustments your junior year because of things that happen your sophomore year,

then I think you're ready. I don't think we can get three years because the way I look at it is, okay, think about this. If you go to college for one year, that's really just six months. You're not going to get a lot better or stronger as a player in six months. But if we keep you in college for two years, you're going to get a lot better as a player. You're going to get a lot stronger physically. There's a huge difference between six months and two years.

I mean, that's a huge difference. That's why I would like to keep him in college for two years. And also from an immaturity standpoint, you're coming in when you're 19 and you're coming to a bad team. Look at... I know I love Boogie Cousins. I know you have a tortured history with him, but you just look

at the situation he's been in in Sacramento. I think he's had five coaches, four or five GMs, probably eight or nine point guards, two owners. That's not a good situation. Imagine if he had gone to whatever the 2009 equivalent of the 1999 Spurs was, and he's there with David Robinson and Popovich and all those people.

His career is completely different. But that's the problem we have in the NBA now, because when you draft an 18-year-old kid, you're not going to get better. How good did Minnesota get when they got Wiggins? Right. Okay, now how much better are they with Carl out in the town? They're not.

So the soccer's going to keep repeating itself. So they're going to be in the lottery again next year. Right. So they're going to bring another freshman out of high school to play with another couple 20-year-olds. So they're never going to go to a good team because these guys aren't good enough to help a team. Well, look at poor Anthony Davis right now. I know.

He got screwed by his GM. They made some dumb signings and dumb trades, and now he grabbed the money. He grabbed the extension, and now he's on this team that really has no short-term future at all. Zero short-term future. I mean, they're not a playoff contender. And listen, let's be realistic.

Let's say hypothetically they make the playoffs next year. They're not a contender. No. And they're probably not. And the one thing about being on a bad team when you've got a great player like Anthony Davis, he's just good enough to get you screwed out the lottery. Right. Yeah. being on a bad team when you got a great player like Adam Davis, he's just good enough to get you screwed out the lottery. That's the way it is. That was like my last

three or four years in Philly. I got us into the playoffs, but then when I went back, because I'm not against tanking now, because if we're not going to win, let me get draft pick and some good players. And I think it's unfair when I hear the term tanking

and people make fun of the 76ers. What did the Miami Heat do when they got LeBron? They tanked. They traded every player on their team. The same thing the New York Knicks did to Zach, same thing when they went after LeBron also. I just think, what's wrong? What's in between tanking trying to get a big-time free agent

or tanking trying to get young studs? I prefer to go the route of Oklahoma City to get young studs. That guy right there, if you look at his last 10 draft picks, every one of them can flat-out play. Except for Josh Eustace. Except for that Josh Eustace except for that Josh Eustace kid well you I think the tanking

has gone back to I think it started in 1984 with whatever the I think the or Samson maybe 1983 something like that it's been going on

for 30 plus years and I you know the Celtics last year a good example I really wanted them to try to go for a playoff spot

because I love the coach I thought it would be a good experience for the young kids. And I wanted them to get a taste of what it's like to be on that big stage in round one. That's my team. And yet, so they try, they get the playoff spot. But if they had tanked, there's Justice Winslow sitting there at number 10. And that's a guy who's a potential multi-time all-star that they would have had had they just lost a couple games down the stretch.

It's frustrating. So we got swept by Cleveland. You know. And I told you, I'm not against tanking. I actually agree with you totally. Listen, if we're just going to barely make the playoffs and get swept, I'd rather have a lottery pick. Because you never know how those balls are going to bounce.

I mean, he slid all the way down to 10. They would have been in the top 10 more than likely. Oh, no question. Well, let me ask you. Go ahead. Your rookie year, 85, you play the Celtics. You make it all the way to the Eastern Finals. You have a really nice series against the Celtics.

Bird ends up stealing the ball from Tony, and the Celtics advance to the finals. But you got a taste of being in some really big games as a rookie with the big stage. I mean, wasn't that great for you? You know, you just, it's overwhelming. First of all, you can't play. You're just a rookie. You're right. You're just overwhelmed.

You can help your team a little bit. It's better when you can actually play. When you actually got control and can contribute. I was like the eighth guy on that team. And first of all, I couldn't. You can't

put me out there with Burr, McHale, and Parrish for long extended periods of time and say that we can beat the best front line of all time. And all my guys were old too, in fairness. That's no disrespect. We were way past our prime. Doc, Moses,

they were past their prime. But, and Bird, and the Sessions were, they probably had another two or three year run in there, I think. Yeah, they did. When you were a rookie, that didn't stop you from holding from you and moses holding back larry bird as dr jay punch don't think i'll ever forget that let me just tell you this you'll be i was so mad that they fired me in that situation every time and i'll tell you this every time i see that clip i'm

so pissed because first of all i would never hold somebody now you kind of held it back well i i you know you want to fight breaks out you just grab somebody trying to break it up but nobody grabbed doc right and he and i like i'm holding larry well i would never hold first of, I would never hold another player and let him get hit. Except for that one time. Except for that time when you let Larry Durden get hit over and over again. Because I went to, so when they called me in front of the commissioner's office, I requested a meeting. Because I got fined. I don't even remember how much it was.

But I said, wait a minute. What did I get fined? Well, for what? You held back the basketball, Jesus. He was trying to get some punches in. When a fight breaks out, you grab somebody to break it up. Yeah. You don't, yeah.

So, and I was really pissed, to be honest with you. I really was. You know who was mad after that game? The legend, Larry Bird. He was mad that Robert Parrish didn't grab Dr. J. Robert Parrish was just standing there with a front row seat to the whole fight not doing anything I got no problem I love Robert Parrish

but I blame Parrish now for my my fine I'm glad you told me that next time I see Robert I'm going to say you owe me some money because if you had to grab Bird it never would have been a fight and I would have never got fired well I saw the YouTube clip. If you look really closely, you can see you and Moses screaming at Doc.

Hit him. Hit him. Hit him. We're holding him. Get some punches in. Hold on one second. We got to do some business. Let's talk about our buddies at Stamps.com.

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Go to stamps.com, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage, and type in BS. That's stamps.com, enter BS. And now back to Charles Barkley. Wait, speaking of punches, we got to talk about Blake Griffin. Yeah, we do. So, all right. First of all, being on a team, close-knit team, you got 14, 15 players. You got four or five assistant coaches. You got a head coach, a couple equipment managers, trainers.

It's a pretty intimate family-type scenario. When something like this happens, how traumatizing is it for the inner circle? Well, when it's high profile like this, it's traumatizing. To the point where there's no coming back from it? Oh, yeah, you can come back from it. I mean, I've seen teammates get to fight. I've seen coaches and players fight. You always come back from it? Oh, yeah, you can come back from it. I mean, I've seen teammates get to fighting. I've seen coaches and players fight. You always come back from it.

The only problem is now everything's, every talk show has to talk about it. You know, I was watching TV yesterday. We got to trade Blake. We got to trade Blake. Blake is the worst person in the world. He hit an employee. And, like, so you have to deal with the crap.

That's the toughest part, dealing with the crap. Everybody's talking about you. When you screw up as a star or somebody famous today, you're going to let the Internet or every talk show on fire. That's the thing you have to navigate. You're a public enemy. I call them public lynchings. Every time you screw up, there's got to be a public lynching.

And Blake got to deal with that right now. Listen, man, Blake got to fighting with a friend. I'm not going to go crazy. Blake was wrong for a couple reasons. The guy's too little to be punching him. But they're friends. But that happens. We've all got to fight with a friend.

Right. Like I say, I've been in the NBA for 30 years. I've seen coaches and players go at it. I've seen teammates go at it. Blake was just wrong. But I don't think it's like the worst thing in the world. I don't overreact like a lot of people do. I actually feel like you were the first guy out of all the great NBA players

because, let's face it, like 70s, 80s, nobody really cared about basketball that much. The ratings reflected that. And then Bird and Magic, 1984 finals, Jordan comes in, you come in, Malone, Hakeem, all of a sudden the league takes off. And you became the first, for lack of a better word, polarizing player. You got involved in incidents in Philly and they're arguing about whether they should trade you or not for four years. And you were feuding with local media people. And now I look at what you went through. Imagine that now in the Internet era.

It's kind of insane. It's insane. Now, one of the reasons I don't do any Internet because I don't feel the need to talk talk to these fools i do no no zero social media so i think a lot of these people they're just losers you know i always say the internet is where losers go to feel important uh and like i say if you get if you do anything wrong uh you're gonna get publicly lynched yeah and and the thing is it's really more about jealousy i don't mind people having a fair opinion of me or anybody else, but most of the stuff is driven by jealousy because their life sucks. And I'd like to say I don't go crazy or overboard.

I'm never going to do social media. I had some knockdown drag outs with Turner. They're like, everybody else does social media. Well, then they got enough people on there then, don't they? I'm never going to talk to these fools. Because, first of all enough people on that end, don't they? I'm never going to talk to these fools. Especially in our job. When we pick a team, the other team fan base go crazy.

They think we care who wins. I can guarantee you I never care who wins. That was my least favorite part of doing NBA Countdown for those two years. I had one series. Oh, it was the finals. It was San Antonio, Miami.

And I had both fan bases convinced that I hated them. And no matter what I said, the other fan base got mad. I'm like, how could I hate two teams that are playing each other at the same time? I have to have an opinion one way or the other. But you have to have an opinion on who's going to win the series. But if you say anything

bad about one of their players, they go nuts. Especially the San Antonio people. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I actually like them. They're like soccer moms. They just can't handle it. They go crazy.

Well, they've got the best coaching probably arguably in NBA history. They've got a great fan base. But they're so sensitive. And, like, dude, I say you you got the best coach maybe in NBA history. You got the best franchise in history. I mean, a model organization. But then if you pick against them, they go crazy. Well, I do think the last three years,

people have come to really appreciate everything that team has built. But I do think last decade, they were in the shadow of the Lakers and the KG Celtics, all that stuff. And it did drive them a little crazy. They were like, hey, Duncan. Dude, they've won the most championships. They've been in the playoffs, deep in the playoffs every year. I mean, you say that, but they just go crazy

if you don't say everything about them positive all the time. I mean, it's crazy. If you could have spent 15 years playing with one of these two people, if you don't say everything about them positive all the time. I mean, it's crazy. If you could have spent 15 years playing with one of these two people with the goal being simply to win titles, would you have picked Duncan or would you have picked Kobe? I probably would rather play with Tim Duncan. That's not a knock on Kobe because it's been an honor and a privilege to watch Kobe Bryant play. I said that when he announced his retirement. It's been an honor and a privilege to watch Kobe Bryant play. I said

that when he announced his retirement. It's been an honor and a privilege. The difference with Tim would be, number one, he's never going to bring drama to the table. I mean, you go back. First of all, because I've said this before, too. One of the most probably disappointing things, if Kobe and

Shaq had been able to just be cordial, they probably could have won eight championships. It's the greatest what-if in the history of the league. It really is. I mean, these guys are acting like babies with each other. You got the best, the second best three, maybe

12, I don't know what I count, Oscar. You got two of probably the 10th to 15th greatest players. I got Kobe in the top 10, and Shaq is right after the Magic Bird, Tim Duncan. So these guys could have won. I think, like I say, everybody, give me a chance to play with a Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O'Neal. I'm not going to be petty arguing with either one of those guys. We're just going to be kicking people's ass.

And these guys are sitting here fighting with each other and arguing with either one of those guys. We're just going to be kicking people's ass. Right. And these guys are sitting here fighting with each other and arguing with each other. And I'm sitting here like, dude, the rest of us out there who don't have a championship, we're playing with damn bums. Right. And you guys have got players that good, and y'all just can't get along? You don't have to be friendly.

You don't have to be friendly. You don't have to be best friends, but just be cordial and just go out there and kick people's ass. It's unprecedented. Like, you look at the 00, 01, and 02 Lakers, and especially 01, which was their best team, when they fought the beginning of the season, then they got it together. I think they were 15-1 or 16-1 in the playoffs.

They just destroyed everyone. And they had really, unless Duncan's in there too, they had two of the best three players in the league in their primes at the same time. Like that's going to happen once every 25 years. You're right. It's not going to happen. And you think about it. Kobe won a couple more and Shaq won one.

Yeah. And that was like X amount of years later. Right. So they probably could have won those three together, but people wanted to come to L.A. and play with those two guys. It's funny that they won't admit that they completely blew that whole thing up. Sometimes they'll admit it, but then other times they'll be like, no it was fine we got along it's like no you didn't you guys know yeah yeah it was awful come on we're not we're not stupid yeah um wait so talking about

teammates like back to blake it never felt like blake and chris love playing with each other and i did feel like the clippers were at the crossroads where you've just seen four straight years where their best three guys didn't translate into even a conference finals appearance and this felt like a do or die season for them, for that nucleus at least. Now Blake breaks his hand. They can't get to the conference finals without Blake.

Right, but I'm saying, did you feel like this was a do or die, we have to trade somebody after this season if it doesn't work kind of year, even before Blake broke his hand? I think that's a fair assessment. I do. Because, you know, if they don't win this year, like I said, they're going to be in the conversation if Blake can get healthy.

This is a long way to go. He broke his shooting hand. He's not going to be back in four weeks. Yeah, but listen, they just got to avoid those top three teams. It's all going to be about matchups. First of all, they're playing great. I mean, they've won 12 out of 15 without Blake, but they've been playing bad teams.

They've only played three teams with a winning record during that stretch. So if he can get back and they can be in the top four, which is going to be right, they might still be in the top four because Chris Paul is the best leader we got in the NBA. That's why they've been playing well. Yeah, but they cannot play the Warriors in round two. They need to get to that three spot because they know they beat the Spurs in a playoff series. So they know they can at least do that spot because they know they beat the Spurs in a playoff series.

So they know they can at least do that. No, no, but the Spurs are a better team than she was in the market. But at least they know they can beat the Spurs, whereas the Warriors, I think they get killed. No, but they match up better. You think they match up better than the Warriors?

They do. Because the only way you're going to beat the Warriors, you've got to have a great point guard because you can't let Steph just play offense. And they got that in Chris Paul. And Blake and DeAndre can pound them down low. I mean, you got to pound the Warriors down low because, you know, they play small.

Listen, I don't know if the Warriors would ever get a rebound if you got Blake and DeAndre down there. I'm going to tell you, they match up very well. I don't know if they can beat them, but even if you look at the two games they played this year, they all went down to the buzzer. That's a tough matchup for them. True. It just feels

like it would be one of those series where the Clips had the lead in a couple games, then the last six minutes the Warriors would just close them out. The Clips cannot close these games. Well, because he had a disadvantage with DeAndre out there. He's a great rebounder. You can foul right i mean it's that's why you need blake because blake can make free throw they can go small and blake can play down low and down so that's why they need blake

so i don't be fooled by what they're doing right now they're not gonna win deep until they get blake well i mean really when you think about it, couldn't Blake be their version of Draymond where you play him at center on crunch time? That's the thing. I can't believe they played DeAndre. Yes. Yeah. That's my point.

And he could dominate down low. Doc doesn't do that, though. He's afraid to do it. I don't know why. I wouldn't play DeAndre. Game seven last year against the Spurs, he just benched DeAndre the last six minutes, and I thought that was one of the reasons they won the game.

But that just – and piggybacking on my point, I think you've got to take DeAndre out the game in close games and in certain situations. But that only works against the Warriors because I don't think it'll work against the Spurs, because the Spurs are going to go small, so you can't really go small against the Spurs. You can go small against the Warriors, because they go small, but the Spurs are not going to go totally small. It's about matchups in a seven-game series.

I hate comparing eras, because the era, especially the 80s, nobody even paid attention to the three-point line. I think Bird led the league in three-point shooting one year. He made like 53s or something. So it was like the Celtics, their whole idea of how to score was to get as close to the basket as possible, to pound the ball down low. You guys would just leave dj open from 18 feet because it was bad it was a better option than just having mikhail or paris torch somebody and now you see that the the spacing is

so much different and yet if you had the 86 celtics playing against this warriors team wouldn't they just pound the hell out of the Warriors down low? I don't know how that would play out. How do you think it plays out? I think it would play out very well. I mean, first of all, none to take anything away from the Warriors. They're a terrific offensive team and a terrific defensive team. But if you've got a point guard and some big guys, you've got a chance against them.

I mean, you do. So isn't that the case for the Spurs? I mean, they didn't play the Duncan card on Monday night, which you knew Popovich was going to do. Well, I don't think the Duncan card was irrelevant. I think Tim Duncan is pretty much done. The guy who's got to play... Well, he's... You know what's so funny? You say that,

who? If you were actually... Everybody knows Kobe Bryant's done. Who do you think actually playing better this knows what Kobe Bryant's done. Who do you think is actually playing better this year, Kobe Bryant or Tim Duncan? I just think Duncan's on cruise control until April. He's a two-month player. I don't think he's got a lot left in the tank.

Well, he's been on one leg for four years. I know, but that's the difference in the organizations. Think about this. The Spurs bring in Kawhi Leonard, MVP of the finals, Defensive Player of the Year. Who did the Lakers bring in? The Spurs bring in an all-star, LaMarcus Aldridge. Who did the Lakers bring in?

So Tim Duncan can hide. Colbert Bryant can hide. That's the difference. I think Duncan would have retired if the Aldrich thing didn't happen because I don't think he could have carried that party. Oh, no question. Yeah. No question.

But now he – like I say, I don't think Tim has a lot left in the tank. He's the greatest power forward ever. But he can – like I think Colbert Bryant's probably averaging more points than Tim Duncan. But it looks awful because the Lakers are just an awful team. Well, I just thought for me that Duncan not playing him on Monday was more symbolic because I don't think Popovich was going to go into that game going, we are throwing the kitchen sink at these guys and trying to win.

I don't think he wanted to show his hand yet because that's what he does. No, I don't think that's what happened. I actually think, honestly, first of all, who is Tim Duncan going to guard out there? You can't play the Warriors big. Tim Duncan can't guard anybody out there. So, first of all, I didn't overreact to that game. I thought that was just like a boxing match. Yeah, they're supposed to win.

Yeah. Well, I just want to see what we got to do next time we play these guys. We got to play them three more times in the regular season. And this is a better matchup. We're going to play small. Yeah. Which is the way we're going to have to play them in the playoffs anyway. And let's see what happens.

And I guarantee you, Pop says, we got Kawhi only shot the ball six times. And LaMarcus didn't have a good game lamarcus is going to be the key he's got to punish draymond down low he can't just go out there and get like two points like he did the other night right oh you talk about the celtics pounding them down low that's got to be lamarcus if you can't let them play small and lamarcus just gets well i think he had four points that's just he can't he got to have a and LaMarcus just gets, I think he had four points. That's just, he got to have a lot more points than that. And I think next time you see it, it'll be a better example.

Yeah. But I'll tell you who's dangerous, Oklahoma City. I agree. No team got, I picked Oklahoma to win the championship because there's no deeper team in the NBA than Oklahoma City. They got the most talent by far in the NBA. But their two best players go one-on-one all the time when the game's on the line. And that's the one flaw of that team.

As great as they are, they're going to win a bunch of games because they got so much talent. But they never use Cantor, Adams, Ibaka enough. And that's going to be up to KD and Russell. Because they have the talent to beat, in my opinion, there's only two teams that can beat Golden State. From a talent standpoint, Oklahoma City. From a coaching standpoint, it's going to be the Spurs. Because they're going to make adjustments game to game to game. But if you just want to roll the ball out there,

Oklahoma City against the warriors it'd be 132 to 129 every game in a seven game series and to see russell and steph go at it would be worth the price of admission i agree with you in the sense that the Warriors go into that series and they know that the other team has two guys that can go at them for seven straight games for two straight weeks. And that, that there's going to be games where they're going to be the best players in the court. And that's what San Antonio doesn't have unless Kawhi can go up a level.

And I've, it feels like it's happening in the regular season, but I still feel, I remember that Clipper series last year where basically he could have won that series for the Spurs. He wasn't quite ready yet to just be like, I'm just going to beat my guy every time. That's what he's going to have to do this year, and we just haven't seen it yet. Well, I think he's starting to go there, but I told you. It's starting.

To me, the key is going to be Lamarcus. Lamarcus can't be a 6'11 jump shooter scoring four points. When he's playing against these undersized power forwards, because when they got Draymond out there, who's a terrific player, they got Stevenson, not Stevenson, Livingston. When they got those little guys out there, he's got to punish them down low. Quick question about Curry.

I don't want to compare him to Bird, Magic, Jordan, like the all-time greats. I hope not. Well, he's got to do it for 10 years before we start having that conversation. Thank you. But from just an offensive impact, impact just being magical just being able to completely rip the heart out of another team offensively he's at least in the conversation

where you think about like bernard king in the 1980s um the way bird was in the 80s the way magic got to in the late 80s what jordan did, what Kobe was doing for a long time. There's something about what he's doing. It feels like it's on that level. And I'm not saying he's the same player, but the way he can kill a team and the way he can kill a crowd on the road and the way he can get his own crowd involved is starting to feel historic. Do you agree with that? Yeah, I think this year and a half,

this year and a half is one of the great spurts in basketball history. Starting last year, obviously this year, this is one of the great runs. This is like Bernard King, I agree with that. Obviously, Michael had probably a 10- to 12-year run like this. Kobe had a 10- to 12-year run. You know, Steve Nash had a run like this. I agree.

Yeah, Steve Nash had a run like this. So, I mean, it's not the first time, but his last year and a half has been spectacular. Yeah, it's weird to think of this little wispy kid that David Kahn passed on him twice, and then he became the best three-point shooter in the league. of this little wispy kid that David Kahn passed on him twice, and then he became the best three-point shooter in the league. But now, you know, he's vaulted to this place I just did not expect. Like, when he's taking these 30-foot threes. Well, I think his confidence is so high right now. He's a great shooter.

But, you know, Bill, like with any sport, when your confidence kicks in, that's what makes you a superstar. Like there are guys who are really good players and who are all-stars. But until your confidence where you believe in yourself so much, like I can do anything and they can't stop me, that's what takes you to the superstar level. Yeah. And he's there now how much do you

think Draymond helps him because I almost feel like Draymond says Bundini Brown I don't well no I think it's a combination I think their team everybody like Clay Thompson who might be the second best shooter in the world, gives him that space. And then I think there are benches on the reading. I think that kid, Livingston, has been playing fantastic. Yeah. You know, I think they're the sum of their parts. I mean, obviously it all starts with Steph and Klay.

But, you know, when Draymond plays, he's coming at you. You're doubling Steph. And Draymond plays, he's coming at you, you're doubling Steph, and Draymond is coming at two big guys, and he's got, I call it fast break basketball in a half court. We broke down like five of their plays the other night, and the team doubled Steph, and Draymond's coming at the big guys and he's got shooters everywhere. So they are better by the sum of all their parts. I mean, they are, like I say, Steph is the leader and the best player, him and Klay.

But man, their team and that really helps Draymond in his situation. And they thrive in chaos. I know Wilbon's brought you to a couple Blackhawk games. Patrick Kane's a little like Curry, where the Blackhawks are always trying to get transition, fast breaks, like where the game's screwed up, people are doing line changes,

all of a sudden they got a three-on-two, and that's what they're going for all the time. The Warriors like that, too. The reason I asked about Draymond, I'm talking more about a personality thing, because I'm not sure if Steph is a traditional alpha dog in the Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan magic, all those guys where they're just force of personality. And it seems like he draws some of that from Draymond. And I wonder if Draymond

wasn't on that team, if Steph would be as much of an alpha dog. Well, he got great swag, but I think Draymond brings that personality. Yeah, that's what I'm getting to. First of all, I don't even think Klay Thompson, I don't think I've seen him on TV all year. Right. I mean, I'm joking, but I'm serious. I don't remember seeing Klay talk on TV all year. He doesn't talk much.

And obviously, Bogut, I think I saw him do one interview. I haven't seen Livingston. I think most of the interviews I've seen, even at the games, has been Steph or Draymond. But Draymond is the mouthpiece for that team. Yes. So, yeah, if that's your point, yeah, I mean,

I don't remember Clay saying, I might have saw one interview all season with Clay, but that's it, man. The only two guys on that team who talk is Draymond and Steph. Yeah, Clay easily could have been a foreign player. He could be from Latvia and just be tearing that off

pretending he was Latvian. The thing with Draymond, he played the best basketball game I've seen anyone play all year where they went into Boston when they had their streak going. And Curry was off and they were tired. They're on a road trip. And Draymond just wouldn't let him lose.

What's amazing about him is he carries himself like he's the best player in the world. Like, I think he really believes that. And they all feed off that. I'm going to disagree with that. I watched that whole Celtics game. That was just a giveaway by the Celtics, man. Well, that too.

Yeah, we can't score on crunch time. But Draymond was all over the place in that game. He was all over the place. But that game, I'm sitting there, the Celtics had five chances to win that game. you know that's the one weakness you know isaiah thomas he's their closer he's their closer he's five foot two yeah and i'm sitting there like oh man i see that's one reason i would never coach there's two reasons i would never coach that game is one of them and the Wake Forest game

last night. Oh, I didn't see it. What happened? They had a 10-point lead with I want to say 45 seconds to go and lost the game. And I'm sitting there and I'm pulling for Danny Manning because I played with Danny Manning.

They had a 10-point lead with less than a minute to go, and Virginia hit a three, and they missed two free throws. Virginia hit another three. Oh, God. They missed two more free throws, and Virginia hit another three, and it's a one-point game. Virginia hit one free throw. No, Wake Forest hits one free throw.

And Virginia hits a three at the buzzer. From the side of the corner, he banked it from the corner. So that's where the coach ends up at the hotel bar for like three hours afterwards. Oh, my God. And I'm sitting there. Because you have to mercy your players, man, when you're a coach. The coach ends up at the hotel bar for like three hours afterwards. Oh, my God. And I'm sitting there. Because you have to mercy your players, man, when you're a coach. Yeah.

And they have people's lives, livelihoods in the palm of their hands. And I'm sitting there like, because I'm pulling for Danny Manning. And to blow a 10-point lead with less than a minute to go at home. I mean, the crowd's like, I don't think I just saw that, did I? It was awful. Would you have fired David Blatt? like, I don't think I just saw that, did I? It was awful. Would you have fired David Blatt? No, he didn't deserve to get fired. He did not deserve... GM LeBron wanted to fire him.

Well, you know what? That's really unfair. I think, listen, LeBron deserves some blame. Kyrie Irving deserves some blame, and David Blatt. I said this last week on our show. They made Kevin Durant one-dimensional. Kevin Love.

Kevin Love, excuse me. He's just standing out there shooting three. He's a hell of a post player. And it reminds me of what happened in Miami the first year where they blamed everything on Chris Bosh because they didn't use him correctly. But LeBron was so great back then, it didn't matter. And Dwayne still had a little bit left in the tank. So they got through it.

They blamed everything on Spos. Remember the first year when it's Pat Riley coming down? The whole year. Because at one point they were 9-8. But the whole year was like when it's Pat Riley coming down or they blame everything on Chris Bosh.

I see the same thing happening now. They blame everything. Instead of using Kevin, like I say, if I'm LeBron, I says, Kevin, go to the box. We're going to go to you ten times a game. Or I'm Kyrie Irving. Kevin, we're going to go to you ten times. Like I told guys sometimes, hey, you're going to get this shot.

I'm going to get double just for you to get this shot. Hey, I'm going to get double just for you to get this shot. You know they're going to double this guy. But they may, and so they may, I blame Blatt, Kyrie, and LeBron for not using Kevin Love. This guy ain't become a bomb since he went to Cleveland. First of all, they have been winning, actually, but they still don't use him in the right way.

It's a bad conference. Yeah, I was worried when they got him because just I loved watching him in Minnesota, even though that team stunk. He loved having the ball on the top of the key to the left. That was his spot. Or he'd go down low. But when he had the ball at the top of the key, they'd run little high screens for him.

That's where he was a really good passer. He could shoot from there. It was his favorite spot. And it's also LeBron's favorite spot. So it never made sense. Well, that's what I thought. I thought they would either go high screen with both of them or they would alternate. Instead, they just threw him in the corner and they forgot about him.

And that's one of the reasons I say you blame Blott for that to a certain degree. Yeah. But also, I tell LeBron, I'm telling LeBron, dude, go to that guy down low. I tell everybody, get the hell out the way. We're going to Kevin on the box. And LeBron's never done it. Same thing with Kyrie. Hey, man, y'all get the hell out, especially when LeBron's not in the game.

It's Kyrie and Kevin. Hey, y'all get the hell out the way. We're going to Kevin on the box. Now, Blatt deserves some blame for that. Well, couldn't we say, though, if LeBron, and we saw this last year, and everybody jumped down anyone's throat who mentioned this, but LeBron didn't seem to have a lot of respect for Blatt that whole season last year. True. I agree with that.

He never did it from the beginning. But when you're the best player, and you're not showing the coach that kind of respect, and he did it with Spolstra too, doesn't that trickle down to the other guys? It's following the leader at some point, right? Yes. LeBron could have did a better job of being inclusive to Coach Blatt. He's been very disrespectful this entire time there. Could you say that LeBron is way harder to coach during his entire career

than maybe he's gotten credit for? Well, I think he's probably hard to coach, but all great players are hard to coach because they want to do it their way. But you've got to put a guy in there who's not intimidated. There's no way David Blatt's going to come all the way from Russia and get handed LeBron James. They're going to be tough on LeBron James. Right. You know, so that goes with it also. Quick break to talk about Audible.com.

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No questions asked. So why listen to sports radio and lousazy Music channels when you can listen to books? Right now, Audible.com offering a free 30-day trial membership that includes one free audiobook of your choice. Go to audible.com slash BS to start your free trial today. And just for the record, my wife uses audible.com. They listen to books in the car with the kids. It's great. Check it out, audible.com. Was there a coach during your career that you undermined a little bit where you look back now and you go, man, I should have handled that better? No, not really. I think that because when I got – listen, we had actual coaches in the NBA

when I got there. You know, what I mean by that is they didn't care how much money you made, they were going to coach you. Billy Cunningham, when I got to the NBA, he coached me. He made me a better player. Not like today where he's – first of all, there's only three coaches in the NBA who got power, who is not intimidated by their highest paid player and things like that.

Yeah. Who are the coaches? Yeah, yeah. Steve Kerr. Popovich. Popovich. Popovich is number one. I think Doug Rivers probably got that type of power.

Not for much longer. I'm trying to think. I think Brad Stevens does. Brad Stevens is the only coach in the league. He doesn't have a superstar making $25 million a year. He's the only coach in the league who will go offense defense repeatedly in the last two minutes and just sit guys and treat them like they're in college well i mean he can do that when he got younger and i like brad stevens i like what him and dan angie doing up in boston thank you and

i do i like what they're doing but you know you really won't be able to tell until a guy like when you get a temperamental superstar like like every superstar is not Tim Duncan and Tony Parker. You know, how would Brad Stevens do with DeMarcus Cousins? That would be a test. I want to find out. Can we find out? How do we get him

to Boston? Hey man, you know, be careful what you ask for. I still believe in Boogie. I just think when you're in bad... Like, this happened to you. You got pigeonholed in Philly. Oh, Barkley's a pain in the ass.

Oh, you can't win with Barkley. Meanwhile, you had shit teammates the whole time. No offense to your teammates. But the thing... Well, hey, listen. Truth is the truth. But the thing is, is it too late to change Boogie Cousins? Because at some point, I don't think a player can change.

My fear with him is that he goes in little runs. Like right now he's in a run where he's kicking ass, he's playing really well. Well, like last night. First of all, I don't think he's in good enough shape, number one. I agree. But then, because like, he comes off the monster game, then he goes four for 21 last night. I think that's conditioning.

I've seen him play in person, and he doesn't run hard at all. Yeah. And that's a – I know he goes crazy every time I say something about it. I think the kid's a hell of a player, but he's not in shape. And he went to a Mickey Mouse organization, which hurt him. That's true, yes. But my question is, Bill, and it's a a Mickey Mouse organization, which hurt him. That's true, yes. But my question is, Bill, and it's a fair, fair question,

is it too late? Because he doesn't like hard coaching. Can I give you my theory on this? You're going to love this. This is going to be your favorite. Feel free to steal this on Inside the NBA on TNT tomorrow night. How about that, Puck?

Okay. I think head cases in the NBA, and I think it's fair to call Boogie a head case, or we could call erratic personalities, whatever you want to say, enigmas. I think when they hit their late 20s, some of that, they shed a lot of that stuff.

You look back in the history of these, like Zach Randolph, Rasheed Wallace, Bernard King. Some of the greatest players, it just takes them a while to get it. They're a little more mature. Maybe they meet the right girl. Maybe they're not going out as much.

Maybe they just kind of level out a little bit. I would take a chance on Boogie. Well, that works both ways. I can't remember some of the guys right off the top of my head, but I always say this. I've been in the NBA for 30 years and I've seen 25 guys who I said man when that guy gets it

we're not going to have a chance. Derek Coleman. First of all I've always said I thank God Derek Coleman never got it. He was the most talented. Him and Weber the the two best, most talented power forwards ever at that position, they never got it. Well, first of all, Weber's a Hall of Famer now. Well, I know, but it took him, he wasted six, seven years before he got it.

He threw away the 90s. Come on. He was a good a year. I know you got to work with him. No, no, no. Wait a minute. Okay, see, this is an argument we have all the time. I think Chris has gotten screwed the last few times on the Hall of Fame.

Okay. I agree. He's a Hall of Famer. No question. But let me give you his credentials. Yeah. Okay. He won Rick of the Year.

And then got himself traded to a terrible team. He intentionally pushed himself to a bad team. Hold on. Hold on. And they made the playoffs. Who did? The Wizards. The Wizards. When he got traded to the terrible team. He intentionally pushed himself to a bad team. Hold on, hold on. And they made the playoffs. Who did? The Wizards. When he got traded to the Wizards.

They were like a first round and out. But they were irrelevant until he got there. Charles, he was on a team with Tim Hardaway, Latrell Sprewell, Billy Owens, Chris Mullen, and he pushed his way to Washington who had nobody. But he still got them to the playoffs. And didn't he get them to the playoffs? Nah, they were meaningless.

Okay, okay, okay. Then let me get the rest of it. Then he gets traded to Sacramento who we never even heard of before. Right, and then it happens. And he gets them to the playoffs every year. Yeah, and they had an awesome five-year run. He was one of the best five players in the league a couple years. Yeah, but let's get back to Derek Coleman.

Derek Coleman is one of the few guys that I ever said, that guy scares me right there. Yeah. If that guy had got his stuff together, they would have to change the rules. Yeah. Because he can shoot threes. He can shoot

threes, he can post up, he can shoot, he was ambidextrous. That guy, I said, whoa, this is a handful right here. And I'm talking about I played against Karl Malone in his prime. The best player I've ever played against is Kevin McHale. But Derek Coleman, that guy, I said, if this kid ever gets it together. But see, he went to a Mickey Mouse organization too. Well, and that's

and that's what I hate about the NBA lottery system it rewards failure it puts young kids in a position to fail and to learn from other people who are failing well Bill in fairness all sports reward losing but basketball's the worst cause it's like it's 12 guys well why don't y'all

quit shipping these bombs after one year of college to the NBA I'm with you Well maybe Adam Silver listens to this podcast I like Adam Silver I think his heart's in the right place And to me this is the most important Topic for him right now

Is to figure this out Because Ben Simmons is going to go to a Shitty team next year And he can't shoot and he's really talented and he needs to be with great teammates on the right team and he's going to be screwed you know you're going to a bad team we right well that's the one thing about sports you're going to go to a bad team that's one of the reasons I think we need to really consider more keeping them in college for two years i'm with you well imagine

being okra for right now you're in that crappy philly team yeah but let me tell you something i actually think yeah people too hard on the sixes i think the six is gonna get good quickly listen first of all they had joel mb do you have an outside chance of making the playoffs uh wait in the eastern conference they only got to win a couple games. I don't know. I mean, he hasn't played one game. I'm a big Embiid fan. Listen, first of all, they might not have even taken Okafor if they had Embiid.

They might have taken another guard. You know, well, Russell was gone. I guess Porzingis was the big prize that they missed, but I think that would have been pretty ballsy. No, Sixers had the number two pick, didn't they? No, the Lakers had two, I thought. Yeah, Sixers had three, remember?

The Lakers might have taken Ockelford, though. The Lakers took Russell. I know, but they might have taken Ockelford. They needed a big guy, too. I know, but they might have taken Okenfogel. They needed a big guy, too. I think they just take Russell because... I'm trying to think. You could argue that that was a great pick because the way the league is going,

you can't play more than one big guy at the same time. I can't believe all these teams who have five, six, seven big guys, like the Cavaliers. They have Kevin Love, Mozgov, Thompson, Verge. They can only play one of them at a time. The whole league is shifted. Well, I know you think that,

but there's only one team that lives by small ball. Stop it. This is just, all these teams are measuring themselves. They're trying to replicate the Warriors. Oh, you can't do that. I don't agree with you. Let's don't hand them the championship yet. How's that?

I'm not ready to, but look at my Celtics. They play Isaiah Thomas, who's 5'2", Avery Bradley, and Marcus Smart. That's their crunch time lineup with Jay Crowder, who's a small forward, and then they play Sollinger, who's 6'6". And that's their crunch time lineup.

Well, that's why they're getting crunched then, because that's not a good lineup to have with the game on the line. Do you want to plug inside the NBA? Oh, man, Thursday night. Tomorrow night, you know, we're announcing the reserves, which is going to be interesting. Yeah. I thought the fans didn't do a great job,

because Draymond Green and Kawhi Leonard should be starting. I agree. Jimmy Butler should be starting. I agree. Jimmy Butler should be starting. I agree. But it's always interesting because they're always going to leave off a couple guys who deserve it. Do you want to give your daughter's resume

to try to get her a job in New York City? Yes, she needs a job. I told her, at some point, I want to retire. Right. I don't want to work forever. I can only imagine what kind of setup you have for your daughter in New York City, what kind of awesome studio apartment she has. I'm betting it's nice.

She's the best kid in the world. She's the only kid I got. She's going to get, at some point, she's going to get the keys to the castle. All right. Well, Chuck's daughter is get the keys to the castle. All right. Well, Chuck's daughter is available for work, for hire. Yes, she is. And I told her, pretty soon I'm about to come see her.

You know what she's going to say to me? Welcome to McDonald's. Can I help you, please? She's got to get a job. I tell you, listen, welcome to McDonald's. Can I help you, please? I said, practice on that because you're leaning toward that way right now. Alright, Charles Barclay,

thank you so much. Look forward to watching you tomorrow night with the All-Star Reserves, and I'll talk to you soon. Okay, my brother. Take care of myself. Give my best to your family. Alright, thank you, you too. Alright, okay. Thanks to Stamps.com for sponsoring today's show. You can buy and print official U.S. postage using your own computer and printer if you go to Stamps.com, uh, use the promo code BS, you get a four week

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The BS Podcast. Thank you.