The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 58: Tom Thibodeau

Episode Date: February 1, 2016

HBO's Bill Simmons talks hoops with former Bulls head coach Tom Thibodeau. Topics include: disrupting the Warriors (11:00), best 21st century teams (21:25), Team USA's 2016 roster (27:00), defensive wizardry in today's NBA (38:00), Celts-LA 2010 (46:00), D-Rose & NBA title windows (59:00), the Cavs (1:02:00) and the best team/player since 1989 (1:09:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Again, approved by my wife. And let's go. all right it's our first monday without cousin sal on the bs podcast because we're going to do the super bowl props podcast um later in the week probably wednesday and we need time to prepare we need to figure out what the best props are want to talk a little hoops today this is a guy i've been trying to get to come on for a while. Former coach of the Bulls had a cup of coffee, including a 2008 title cup of coffee with the Celtics, and has been in the league forever.

And I enjoy talking hoops with him. So that's what we're going to do. Tom Thibodeau, how are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on. A little different, but I'm enjoying my time off. Yeah, so, let let's see 26 straight years you're you're just immersed in the nba and then you leave chicago last summer

and so what happens what do you do first yeah you know you take a step back uh you know i'm still involved with team, so I had that last summer. But then you approach the season, you decide, okay, what do I want to get accomplished? For me, I'm doing it more as a sabbatical, recharge, re-energize, visit with some people, go on vacation, do some normal things, watch some movies, and we'll see what unfolds going forward.

So in the training camps, you hopped around and went and visited a bunch of different organizations and tried to learn some stuff. What did you learn? Bill, it was terrific. Obviously, when you're approaching it from this perspective, it's a lot different because it's not one team where you're trying to figure out, okay, how can you maximize the strengths and weaknesses

and cover up the weaknesses of your own team and prepare for the season. This was taking a step back, a much broader view of the game, and look at how everyone else is approaching the season. It was fascinating because each team is unique. Each team has their strengths and weaknesses. And they're also in different phases. You can take a San Antonio who's competing for a championship

and, you know, adding in a LaMarcus Aldridge and David West. It's a well-oiled machine, and it's a phenomenal system. You spend a few days with them. You go with the Warriors, and they're the defending champion. Then you're watching how they approach, and then you turn around and go to Utah. It's a young team that's building a great foundation. And so when you look at it that way and then you have some teams that are sort of in the middle. I spent some time with Rick Carlisle, who was terrific, in Dallas. And, you know, every

year he finds a way to get it done. And I spent time in Houston, Charlotte, the Clippers, of course, with Doc. So it was terrific. I also had the opportunity to visit with Stan Van Gundy in Detroit and Brad Stephens in Boston. So who were you the most jealous of? Well, you know, it's funny. When you're sitting in this position,

and you always have preconceived notions as to what it will be like. Then when you, when you get there and you're looking at the teams and it's, you know, like you go to a golden state and you, and it's just phenomenal. And obviously I had the chance to be around Clay and Steph with Team USA, but just watching how they do everything in their high-character team. You always worry or you want to get a look at how are they going to approach the season after winning it, particularly when they're unique in the sense that where their best players are really young and they won the championship.

And when they come back with the same hunger to do it again and obviously the uh the answer is uh resounding yes and then you know then you get to uh san antonio and you see like it's just a it's amazing just the way they do it you know and it's not like if you said to me what's the one thing that they do great you know i couldn't tell you that but it's all i could tell you is that everything matters with San Antonio. Every little thing, there's nothing that goes unprepared for or is not well thought out. So, you know, I think any of the championship caliber teams and then the teams that are trying to get there.

So it was a lot of fun, you know, when you do it that way, I think I learned a lot of things. And, you know, and then you get the chance to, you know, to watch at the beginning of the season. And my biggest takeaway is this, is that our league is in great shape. Like, I'm watching the East and the way things have unfolded. And there's a lot of really good young teams that are real competitive.

There's great games being played every night. I think we have some really good young superstars. The league is in great shape right now. So when you saw Golden State, in the back of your mind, you're thinking, I went through this in the summer and the fall of 2008 with the Celtics. We win the title. I'm not sure how these guys are going to come back, how they're going to react to it. Are they going to be coasting? Are they going to be hungry for a back-to-back? And in the case of the Celtics, super hungry. And did you see that when you were watching Golden State, did they remind you of the 2008 Celtics in that respect?

Well, that was the biggest thing when I was going out there. I wanted to see how they would compare. In Boston in 08, the challenge the first year was how quickly could we get everyone off the same page. Obviously, when you add Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen to Paul Pierce, it puts you in that position. But people were telling us, well, it's going to take more than a year, and we felt like we've got to get it done right away. And those guys were terrific and came back the next year. And because of the makeup of those three guys, they knew that they would have a

chance to repeat, and they were phenomenal. In the second year, we actually started the season off better than the first year, and when the first year was terrific, and then Kevin got hurt right after the All-Star break, and that sort of, you know, we ended up losing to Orlando in the second round, but I really felt that the second year we were better than we were the first year. Really? So then... You thought that even without Posey? but I really felt that the second year we were better than we were the first year. Really? You thought that even without Posey?

Yeah, yeah, and Posey was a big hit. But I also thought we had some good young players on that team that were still growing because when you look at like a Rondo and a Perk and Glenn Davis, we felt like, okay, we're losing a little something there, but we still have these young guys that could get better and they did. So we, and then the, just the, the way the, the, you know, the, the big three approached it, you know, I, I knew that that year was going to be really special and doc and I talk about

it all the time. The, you know, that, that year, I to be really special. And Doc and I talk about it all the time. That year, I think our depth, even though we lost Posey, we had the confidence that we could do it. And the young guys had really come along nicely and put a lot of time in the offseason preparing for the chance to repeat. So you saw it're around the warriors and you just see that same look in their eyes well the interesting thing to me is that you know like in boston everything came together at the right time for us because you had uh kevin coming

off a lot of re-season in in minnesota you had ray coming off a lottery season in Seattle and Paul coming off a lottery season in Boston. Excuse me. And when they got together, because of where they were in their careers, really the only box left for them to check was the championship. And they weren't going to let that opportunity pass. And so, like, in the same thing, the second year, they felt like, okay, this is our chance to repeat. And because of where they were, you knew they would approach it, you know, with the hunger of, okay, we're not going would Steph, Klay, and Draymond have that same drive and hunger

because of the fact that they're so young? Human nature would be to feel good, relax in the summer, and now you come into the year and, hey, if we miss it this year, we can get it next year. And to their credit, they were, I happened to be out there one day, it was right after they had lost to the Lakers in a preseason game, and they

had one of the most incredible practices that I had ever seen. Just the whole, oh yeah. And Steve was there. He wasn't running the practice, but they have a terrific staff. They did a phenomenal job. You could just see

the whole team, the attitude of the team, and they have some it's a really good mix of guys. They have the young guys that are obviously the stars, but then to say that you can't look at a guy like Andre Iguodala and say he's not

a star. He just knows how to win. He's so unselfish with the way he plays. You throw in a Barbosa, a Livingston, Bogut, a Zealy, they all do their job. It's a great group to be around. They knew the preseason was sort of winding down, and they knew how they wanted to approach it. But the practice was, from the beginning to the end, was absolutely phenomenal.

Is it fair to say that Draymond is the ultimate Tibbs player? The one guy in the league you would have loved coaching the most? Well, I'd say this. It's like any coach would love him. Yeah. I think if you went back to Michigan State, then you can tell his relationship with Tom Izzo and the way Michigan State won when they were there.

And then he gets to Golden State and his relationship with the coaches there and his teammates and the way he just has gotten so much better, he'd be a great fit on any team in any system. And he's probably the most unique player in the league because he can play multiple positions, including the center position. And when they go small at the end

and he goes to the center position, most teams, I would say almost all the teams that do that, they sacrifice their defense and rebounding. And when Golden State does it with Draymond going to the center position and Andre Vidal going to the power forward position, they sacrifice no defense and no rebounding. And then they are incredibly dangerous in transition because they all can bust out with it and put enormous pressure on your defensive transition so it seems like the biggest mistake teams are making this season is trying to replicate what golden state is doing because

they feel like that's the only way they're going to beat them and yet i've made this point on a couple podcasts before but you have curry who's the greatest shooter of all time and one of the best offensive players of all time. You have Kway Thompson, who's the second best shooter in the league right now. So they have, just by sheer fluke, they have the two best shooters in the league in a 30-team league. And then on top of that, they have the only guy in the league who can play the five when he's really a stretch

four or whatever the hell Draymond is. I don't even think he has a position. And then Iguodala can play power forward, and as you said, they don't sacrifice defense. Why are people trying to replicate something that's impossible to replicate? Well, that's a great question. I guess, you know, in all leagues,

you know, they always say, like in the NFL, the team that went to the top know, in all leagues, you know, they always say like in the NFL, the team that went to the Cop and Cap League. In some cases, I think that holds true in the NBA as well. And that's what I love about the way Pop coaches. You know, I think Pop, if you look at his career, you know, every year he's played to the strengths of his team and he's covered up its weaknesses. And if you went way back to the beginning with Robinson and Duncan, it was very much a power team that played great defense, and they pounded you. And then when David Robinson retired, they went to more of a pace push, emphasizing the strengths of Tony Parker, Mano Ginobili,

and then, of course, getting Diao a stretch forward, and they shot more threes and opened up the game. And now the acquisition of LaMarcus Aldridge and David West and emphasizing the strength of Kawhi Leonard, it's become more of a post-up, shooting less threes, but still highly efficient offensively and playing unbelievable individual and team defense. And they're trying to do it their way.

They feel that that's their best chance of having the ultimate success. Right. So I think that that's what the good teams do. They look at the strengths and weaknesses of their team and they try to play that way. I think the whole trick is more to be efficient, obviously to be a top-five offensive and defensive team, to be in the top five with your rebounding,

and then you look at the scoring margin. To me, those are the markers that are most important. All right, this is a tough question to ask because you wouldn't know what type of roster you'd have in this scenario. But let's say you had the ability to go big at a good level or to go small at a good level, and you're playing the Warriors. What kind of things would you try to do to disrupt them? Well, I think you just hit on it,

and that's where you have to give Golden State a tremendous amount of credit, the way their organization has put that roster together, because they have the ability to do both. And they do, they start big, and oftentimes play big most of the game and then if they're down at the end they have the ability to go to a small lineup and to change everything and if you went back to last year's uh finals uh you know in game three uh and and

they're down and they're losing big in the fourth quarter they you know they went without the center they had put deep david lee in and they found something that in the fourth quarter. They went without the center. They had put David Lee in, and they found something that worked. And so then they just kept downsizing from there, and it worked very effectively for them. So they have the ability to do both. So I think when you're playing Golden State, you have to have an understanding of who they have on the floor and how you want to match up.

And then also what schemes are you going to utilize with each unit that they have out there? Because you can't play the same way when they go to the small lineup. There are some things you can do differently with the big lineup. And I think the big thing with Steph is you can't give him a steady diet of anything. You have to keep adjusting to make him read and react to you. And even if you do that, he still has the ability, as does Clay, to make incredibly tough shots in transition. Right.

So as a coach, that's the type of team you lose the most sleep over because you might do everything perfectly and they're still going to hit crazy shots and beat you anyway. Right. over because you might do everything perfectly and they're still going to hit crazy shots and beat you anyway. I think with any star players, when you prepare and you're putting your game plan together, you have to decide okay, what are we going to try

to take away and what are we going to be willing to live with? Anytime you put two on the ball, you're going to be vulnerable in another area. So I think you have to determine how much are you going to do that, how are they going to counter, and what are the shots that we want to take away. You know, do you want to take away, you know, the obvious is the layup and the dunk and then the catch and shoot threes, particularly the corner three,

and then you want to limit the free throws. Like, to me, those are, you those are the three areas that you lock into. But the thing is, like with Klay and Steph, they play so well off of each other. You have to have great awareness. It requires multiple effort. You have to be able to challenge shots and then also finish your defense. I think challenging shots is something that's incredibly important. But the finish of the defense is equally, maybe even more important

because they get a lot of threes off the scramble, offensive rebound, hustle-type plays. So if you're not disciplined in where you need to be, they're going to make you pay for that. And Steph is so clever with the ball. You can put him in a box, and he can create just enough space to get that shot off. And he gets it off so quickly, he's almost impossible to guard.

But what you have to do with him is try to make him work as much as possible for his points. That's a team that they have the most success when the game goes kind of wonky especially like the the long offensive rebound i'm sorry long defensive rebound off a three or something and people are running back and somebody loses and then all of a sudden steps making a 26 footer so much of it is transition and some sort of screwed up play or somebody's over here. Oh, I forgot. Oh, you're, oh, oh, oh.

And then they're making the three. How do you coach against that? Yeah, I think when you go in into the game against them, you have to make your team understand, okay, if this team averages 33s and they do a lot of damage in transition, your defensive transition is so critical. But then you have to ask yourself, okay, how can we get that number down? Like what you don't want them to do is take 35 or 40 threes

and then they make a high percentage. So I think the first thing is how do you get the attempts down? And then once you get the attempts down, how well can you challenge? And what are the ones that you absolutely don't want them to have? And I would say, you know, the odds would be the two corners, and you don't want them to be catching shoot threes from the corner. Right. And then, you know, like, so I think that deciding that is probably the most important thing.

And then you have to say, okay, if we blitz and try to get the ball out of his hands, where are they putting their people? And then maybe blitz in certain areas of the floor. But I think you have to have that discipline, and your team has to understand what you're trying to take away, what you're willing to live with. Like to me, if a guy, if you're on his body and you're forcing him in a certain direction,

you're making him pull the ball back to you with your shooting hand, and you can challenge that shot. And he makes those. You probably wouldn't live with those. But the ones in which it's a pass out, it's a rhythm shot, those are the ones that you're probably not. You want to take those out as much as you can. So the best three teams of this century, just from a ceiling standpoint,

I would say, were the 0-1 Lakers, who were just unbelievable in the playoffs. I think that somewhere from the 0-8 Celtics, from the conference finals, all the way through to when KG got through the next year, that was an unbelievable run by that team. And then this Warriors team now. And you were involved with one of those three teams, the Celtics. So let's say i've i put the celtics in a time machine you get you get the november 2008 celtics and you're playing the warriors and it's one game winner takes all what what's the strategy with that celtics team that you had well i you know the i think we'd match up quite well with them, to be honest with you. But it would be one heck of a game.

And I would say this, that the season would be really important because that home court would mean it all, probably. Right. What's the over-under of 2008 KG versus 2016 Draymond alpha dog arguments where they have to be separated? Like at least three? That would be before the tip. That's true.

In the warm-ups. Oh, yeah. You know, it would be. And again, you know, I can't say enough about Kevin. You know, and obviously, Bill, you were around the Celtics a lot, what he meant to that team. And, you know, he gave the team that heart, the fight, all of those things. And I think that's exactly what Draymond brings to the Warriors. You know, his stats are impressive.

You know, the seven assists, the points are not overwhelming or anything like that, the rebounding is out. But it's all that he brings. You know, it's the fight. You know, he does everything to unite and inspire that team. Right. And, you know know his playmaking and see like in and kevin is is a different player but kevin did a lot of those things that you probably

you know he probably doesn't get enough credit for like he sacrificed the most like he could have been the leading scorer of that team, and he was the third, I think. When the ball needed to move side to side, he got it going. Even if he had a decent shot for him from the top of the key, he'd get the ball hopping for us. Once he started doing it, everyone else would follow.

He was, in all my time, I've been around a lot of great players, he was a great, great practice player. And when your best player is like that, then you've got a team that practices well and a team that will play its best when its best is needed. Yeah, it's funny.

You wouldn't think that Draymond and KG, like you wouldn't think Draymond is this decade's KG, basically, because he's six inches shorter, different types of games, but really, he's kind of the legacy guy for KG. The way he carries himself, game after game, practice after practice,

the defensive intensity and excellence that he brings, and just how unique he is. I would say it's not a weird comparison. The thing that is similar, I would say, is the will to win. I think the thing that makes Kevin so special is to combine the incredible talent, superstar talent, with that will to win.

It's so rare to have that combination. Patrick was like that as well. Patrick Dilling. But when you have that, it's really special. And that intensity is... Because that's

not something that I think you could turn on and off. Some guys are great, fierce competitors in games and not that way in practice. But when you have a guy who can do both, I think that lifts your entire team. And what Kevin did there for that team was, I mean, when you think back that the year before he got there, they had lost 18 in a row.

So to change everything and to do it all as quickly as he did in the first year, I mean, it was just tremendous. And, you know, and obviously Paul Pierce and Ray deserve a lot of credit as well. You know, along with, you know, we had some really good young players on that team as well. Hold on, I want to talk about this 2016 Olympic team, but first I want to talk about my buddies at Squarespace. They build gorgeous websites for normal people who don't know how to build websites. My friend Louis K. just launched his own PR branding biz called Covert Creative. Check out that website at covertcreative.com.

It's covert with a K. And yeah, he used Squarespace. Lewis is a bigger technology dummy than I am. So shout out to Lewis's new business. And shout out to the technology dummies. Also a Squarespace customer. Speaking of technology dummies, the star of Friday Rolling, Mr. Joe House. Check out his site at housefromdc.com.

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So how do we leave Draymond off this 2016 Olympic team? I just don't see how he's not on it. Well, yeah, and that's the that's going to be the toughest thing in moving forward with Team USA is picking that team, that Final 12 team.

And it's such an incredibly tough job and Coach K and Jerry Colangelo they take that responsibility very seriously. And they, you know, they'll put a lot of time and thought into it. And, you know, unfortunately,

there's going to be some very deserving players that, you know, will be left off. But they're never entirely out of the pool. You know, they'll always be out between the next time around. But it's not going to be an easy task picking that team. Yeah, so, all right. LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Draymond, Kawhi, Anthony Davis, Chris Paul, Carmelo, Paul George, Klay Thompson.

That's 11 right there, and I did not even mention Kyrie, James Harden, Andre Drummond, Jimmy Butler, Chris Bosh, Boogie Cousins, LaMarcus Aldridge, or Blake Griffin. I don't think we've ever had a tougher roster situation. This is a nightmare. No, and it's an incredible credit to all the players, too, because what they've done is they've restored all the pride in playing for our country. It's a great honor, and it's a privilege.

And the way they've conducted themselves. And I know even with the World Cup, a lot of the older guys who did not stop by to watch practice and were texting the guys. It's really become a brotherhood. And it's actually a lot of fun. I think it's been great for our league.

Obviously, you know, it's worked out quite well for us. From being around that team and just being around the practices and some of that stuff, you know, you have a chance to see these guys up close.

These are guys that you're just coaching against. Now, all of a sudden you're in around them day to day, watching how they act with each other, watching them in practice. Was there one guy in particular that just jumped out at you? Like where you were saying to yourself, my God, I didn't realize this guy was blank. Yeah. You you know the funny thing is because it's really it's an interesting experience because you you're having these all these guys who are you know dominating players for their teams and they're uh they come in and they're being asked to sacrifice you know maybe they come off the bench and none of them are playing a lot of minutes. You're probably playing 20 minutes a game, so it's not where you're playing 36 of the 40 minutes.

That's not going to happen. And just their willingness to share with each other and to bring the best out of each other, it's real interesting to observe. And you oftentimes, after practice, you'd see guys playing one-on-one and working on their games with each other. I think any time you could be around other people that are great at doing something, you're going to learn from the situation.

And I think our guys have done that. They've learned from each other they've learned from the international game uh and it's a it's an incredible experience so was there one guy that changed their perception of him or or i'll tell you the guy who probably stood out the most was cousin in terms of like you know until you're around somebody you you don't really know them. And, you know, he played great for us in the World Cup. And as a matter of fact, in the gold medal game, he was dominant.

I think Davis had gotten into early foul trouble and he went in and he played terrific. You know, he came off the bench and played unselfishly, played hard. But I think the biggest thing that stands out is the willingness of all the players to sacrifice. You see guys cheering. The guys are on the bench. They're cheering. The guys are on the floor all the time now.

They're greeting the guys coming off the floor. You see their love of the game. And the respect of the game, you know, and their respect of the game. You know, that really stood out to me. You know, they're also sacrificing their summer. You know, they're giving that up to, you know, represent their country, the NBA, you know, their teams themselves. It's quite an experience. So somebody like Cousins, who I'm a huge fan of, and you see this happen in the NBA so many times, where somebody's just in the wrong situation.

Like that guy's had five coaches already, and he's had five GMs and a couple owners and just roster turmoil year after year after year. And this is a common thing with the NBA where you, you know, you have young guys coming into a team. They're expected to carry the team right away because they're a high lottery pick, but they're 19 and they're 20. Things are changing year after year. And so I'm sure for somebody like Cousins, he goes to a team like that and it's the first time in five years he's been in a great basketball situation, right? I mean, it's good that he's thriving in that.

Right. I think that whole experience was real positive for him. And I think what you have to keep in mind, too, and you already hit on it, is usually when a guy comes into the league, he's 19 years old. And after a guy's been in 6, 7, eight, he's not going to be the same. He's going to have learned from past experiences, the people that he's been around, and he's going to grow. He's not the same person.

It's funny, like, you know, I've worked a few summers now, and each summer you can see a difference. You know, I think learns as as you go forward in uh uh i think when you're around other players that have done it and uh as you get older and you learn from some of the mistakes that you made you will be different and i i think to truly uh be great you have to have the ability to bring out the best of the people that are around you as well. Right.

And I think that that's something that they take from it. I think there's a big leadership component to Team USA. There's a communication component to it. And I think they all learn from that. You know, it's funny. People always talk about the bump that players get post-Team USA, the season right afterwards, because they get thrown into that mix of not just the games, but the practices. And, you know, people like Durant and Westbrook who are just maniacs and the practice ends and they're still out there for an hour and a half afterwards. And then the other players start to feel like,

oh, well, maybe I should be out there. And then you see these dramatic effects. Somebody like James Harden was the number two MVP last year, and people were saying one of the reasons he did so well last season was because he was in that Team USA mix, and he was measuring himself against these guys. Do you believe in that, or is that an old wives' tale? No, I do believe in it, and I saw it firsthand with Derek.

My first year in Chicago with Derek Rose, and he played with Team USA in the World Games, and he came into camp, and he was in great shape. And I had the opportunity to go and watch him practice. And it's a different setting. And that's the first thing you take away from it. So everyone is a little bit uncomfortable. It's not like you're with your team where you might be the star of the team

and where your role is defined by everything being built around you, and then your responsibility is to bring the best out of your teammates. Well, in this setting, it's different. Everyone has to sacrifice for the team, and you're going to have to sacrifice your own game and play a different role. And so watching the players deal with that and learning from that, and they're all going through the same thing because none of them are as i mentioned none of them are playing you know 36 minutes where everything is going to be catered to them and then you know what coach k has done

is he's asked them all the players to learn multiple positions so you might be an off guard you know in with your nba team and we might be asking you to play the power forward position. So you have to be comfortable in embracing that. Okay, that's what you're asking me to do. That's what I'll do. That's what our team needs. And I think the international game, there's that versatility, the ability to play two, three, four, in some cases the five.

It's a shorter game. know when you when you get to metal rounds it's like the ncaa term and it's you know one you know single elimination you're or you're out so i think that you have to you know like you look at it that way and you start you know you you realize how important starting a game fast is and how important it is to cover the three-point line. Then how you want to attack offensively. When you see the switching, to know what you're going to get to right away, to not let the block wind down.

And so how quickly you could adapt is so important in the international game, particularly for us. There's different rules. It's a different game. It's a shorter game. All those things, the way the game is officiated, being able to adapt. Because one game might be a little more physical.

The next game might be more where they're calling touch fouls. You've got to be ready. You don't want technical fouls because of the shortness of the game. It's more difficult to make up the technical fouls where you're giving points away. There are also personal fouls in international play, and there's only five fouls before you foul out. So it's a different dynamic. In 2004, we sent that team and they lost and uh it was kind of the end of that era of basketball which was really started in the 90s with jordan a lot of one-on-one and you didn't

see the ball moving around not as many not nearly as many three-pointers as we have now obviously but um it seemed like that was a transformative moment for basketball in this country just getting our butts kicked with one-on-one basketball versus the beautiful way these other teams play it in the slashing kick then Nash's sons come in uh and that that next season and they usher in this whole new era of basketball that, that now we're seeing the effects and the manifestation with the warriors and all this stuff. The reason I'm bringing this up is it was much easier for somebody like you to devise a game plan to stop that one-on-one stuff. And now with this ball movement where the passing is always ahead of the

rotations, I guess it's much less fun to coach now if you're a defensive wizard like yourself, or am I overthinking this? You are overthinking it. Okay. You know, as you can recall from the 90s, it was a much more physical game. And when you look at the power forwards, they were huge.

Oftentimes, the small forwards were really power forwards. We had New York, we had Larry Johnson playing small forward. Oakley was power forward. Patrick Ewing was the center. Most teams were built that way. It was very physical. If you went into the paint, you were going to get hit. And then with the rule changes, I believe the rule changes occurred in 2003.

And so then what happened, because of the physicality, they thought it was crossing over, which it probably was. And for our game, the rule changes were very positive. So what it did is it put an emphasis on skill again. So then what you were seeing, now the small forwards were playing power forwards, so there was much more shooting on the floor. So that opened the game up.

And then the emphasis combined, the rule changes combined with the analytics, with the emphasis on the three-point shot and the value of taking them and where you were taking them from, teams started taking more threes, but there was a lot more shooting on the floor. So in the 90s, when teams ran pick and roll, it was easy to predict where everyone was going to go, so you could trap a lot more.

In side pick and roll, there'd be a flare or a roll and a ducking on the weak side. The high pick and roll was basically a roll and replace or a pick and pop. He knew where everyone was, and it was easy to take that out. Now with more shooting on the floor and overloads and movement on the pick and roll, it's much harder to predict. And then when you combine that, when you say, okay, when I put two on the ball, where are

we vulnerable? Well, now you're more reluctant if you think you're going to be giving up a three, particularly a corner three. Right. So that's all factored into what you're doing with your defense. And then I think in some ways, when the new rules were put in, I know it was to emphasize to try to get scoring up and more freedom of movement. And so it worked from that standpoint. But it also helped the defense because I felt like there were things that you could do

by positioning your weak side big over the strong side and taking advantage of the rules that you could kill isolation and make it a jump shooting game. And as long as you knew how you were going to close out on your rotations, you could

force teams into taking bad shots. You could force them into the long, too. And I think that that is, you know, like what teams were trying to do. And then how you play the ball, I think, is so important. And that's where your technique comes in, keeping the ball out of the middle of the floor, trying to get it into certain areas where you can have advantage. And then how you play the ball as the ball is being picked up,

your technique on it, and your ball pressure and how you trace the ball is critical. I think that the biggest thing that's changed for me is it doesn't seem like you can succeed anymore if two of your guys who are out there out of the five can't shoot. I look at the Kings, and the Kings have a lot of players that I like. And I watch a lot of them because they're on the West coast. If they play Colley Stein and Rondo together with the way the rules are now, and the way teams can just sag off people who

aren't going to shoot from 20 feet, it's almost a deal breaker at the end of some of these games. So it makes me think like in 08, when the Celtics used to play Rondo and Perkins together, now with the way the rules are now and the way the defense is now, I think those teams would be defended a lot differently than they were in 08. What do you think? I agree totally with you. It's much harder today to hide two non-shooters. You can hide one, and Rondo's so unique.

Rondo, as long as you have shooting on the floor with Rondo, and you can start a game that way, but to finish in the fourth quarter, you've got to make sure you have shooting on the floor. And you see now most teams are looking for the stretch forward, the power forward who can shoot to open up the floor. And I think in Boston in 08, I thought Doc did a terrific job with Rajon, particularly late in games, and it was unique. There were a lot of things that if the ball is in Rondo's hands,

obviously it's much harder to cheat off of him. And we did things where it was difficult to go under on him. And then when he gave the ball up, we would position him down on the baseline. And oftentimes in our offense, Garnett was the guy that was back at the top of the key. And that was an area in which he was so effective in shooting the ball for us. So we liked him in that position. So what we did, which was a lot different than most teams in defensive transition, we didn't have Kevin go to the offensive board.

We had him get back and basically take Rajon's responsibility from him in protecting the basket. And because Rajon was on the baseline, we allowed him to go after offensive rebounds, and he was a pass to come in from behind and pop the ball free. But the other thing that it allowed us to do was to establish our ball pressure up the floor a lot higher. And so that worked very effectively for us.

You guys kind of invented that move with KG. Like, weren't you the first team that really said, screw it, we're going to sacrifice offensive rebounding because we don't want to give up transition? Yeah, we wanted to make sure that our defensive transition was real strong. And Kevin is a defense unto himself. So, like, having him back there and communicating and getting everyone else back, and Rajon was terrific up the floor.

We did some things in which we would, because of the positioning, it also allowed us in certain situations to deny the point guard because he wasn't falling back first and then having to come up. He was already up so that we found that to be very effective for us so they were great but again i'm sorry go ahead well i was going to say you know i know they had kind of an up and down history but they they were actually kind of perfect for each other in a weird way yeah well know, the thing is, like, and LeJean, again, every year he got so much better. He's so smart.

And he had, you know, a certain amount of stubbornness that was probably good for him to be the player that he is. You know, and Kevin can be stubborn, too. And, you know, in the end, I think LeJean learned a lot from Kevin. And I think Kevin had a lot of respect for LeJean. Yeah. The four personalities of those guys, you almost like central cast. Central casting could have made four different guys, right? KG, the way he was wired.

Rondo's like this tortured genius who has trouble connecting with teammates but sees the floor differently and ray is like this crazy ocd shooter that's out there at 330 in a dark arena practicing threes and then pierce is like the traditional kind of normal nba star and those four come together and they almost win three titles no and it was incredible and you can't lose sight of the job that Doc did in getting everyone onto the same page as quickly as he did

it was a great job by him and getting and there's no other I don't think there's any other franchise like the Celtics with the history of the 17 championships and how proud that franchise championships and you know how proud that franchise is and you can feel it you know from the moment you walk into that building you

walk into the practice facility and then when you see you see the uh the old Celtics coming through there when you see a Bill Russell or a John Havlicek or Sam Jones, Casey Jones, Bob Cousy, Tommy Heinsohn. It's pretty special. So you and Doc are still tortured by Game 7 2010. I knew you would bring it up. I know. And I remember he told me a couple years ago you guys went to dinner once and for some reason you ended up talking about that game for an hour.

It never fails every every time we have dinner at some point we're going back there so you have you're up three two you go into la gotta win one of the last two perkins gets hurt in the first half of game six throws the whole game out of whack. Now you've got to go into game seven. You've got no Perkins. You basically have a six-man team and Rasheed, who just had not played a lot of minutes that year, Nate Robinson. You've got to figure out a game plan. So walk us through the game plan. Well, we knew going into that game, and we really, our regular season that year was not very good.

But in the playoffs, we played really, really well. And the loss of Perk was huge for us because of the Lakers' size. And people, like, sometimes forget that. And we started off the game,

and we knew, like, when you're dealing with Kobe in a game seven, there would be no bullets left in his gun. You know, we knew that, okay, he's going to keep going, so we've got to be ready to deal with that. And we started off that game great. We had an early lead.

We played a great first quarter. I believe we were up six at the half. But the thing, and they did not shoot well. We played a great first quarter. I believe we were up six at the half. But the thing, and they did not shoot well. They shot 32%. But it was a low-scoring game. And the thing, because we started off the game, even though we had that lead in the first quarter, the big lead, I think it was nine or ten points,

the rebounding was really hurting us. Like we were given two and three shots. And so we're up six at the half. Third quarter was back and forth. I think we built a 13-point lead. Well, hold on. Wait a second, though. You guys went into that game thinking that it was a game seven

and Kobe was going to beat Kobe. And you were like, let's double team him anyway. And maybe he'll, maybe he'll try to beat the double teams and, and, and try to force his hand to keep shooting. Right. Wasn't that the game plan? Yeah. Yeah.

Which he did. Yeah. Okay. I think it was, see the thing that, and, and to his credit, you know, we knew that he would do that. I mean, he's got a killer mentality. He's not walking out of that building saying, I had anything left in there. So, you know, I think he was 6 for 24.

And he was trying to get we knew as and as the game would go up was going up we were trying to get away from the health quicker so you had to adjust like where the health was coming from and how quickly you were coming and then you had to get back to bodies to finish your defense now the second shot did hurt us and the one thing that you know like in and it's it's funny because we knew how good DeSalle was. But, you know, when I had the opportunity to coach Powell last year, Powell was really, really good. And in game seven, he had 19 points and 18 rebounds and nine offenses. But they were really, really long.

Like, when you look at when Bynum, and he only played about 20 minutes, I think he had four or five offensive rebounds as well. And then Kobe did not have a good shooting night, but his will to win, he had 15 rebounds. So I think he had four or five offensive rebounds. And then there were two plays. We're up four going into the fourth, and we had a play in which Fisher hit a spot up three off a help with a salt post up, and then Artest hit a three late in the fourth, which is normally not a great strength of his, but Artest really hurt us.

Artest had 20 points in that game. He had an and one in the fourth quarter that was one of those plays on the restricted line, go either way. And we just had, you know, in the free throws, like we had a lot of, you know, they had 35, 37 free throws. And I think we had 17. So there was a big discrepancy there. And, you know, when you think back of all the things, you know, in your mind you're saying, well, what if the game seven was in Boston? You know, it would be a little, you know, you go back to the importance of having home court.

Yeah. And all those things. But it was a great game. You know, Ray had a couple shots go in and out on him before. Actually, you know, if you remember the end of that game when we got down five, Bajon made a great hustle play corner three, and he comes back, and it's a scramble as they're racing it up the floor. There's about 20 seconds left, and he deflects the ball, and we would have had it.

It just hit the sideline. That ball didn't hit the sideline. At that point, you never know what could happen. A three right there, and we could end up winning the game. But you're right. Our depth in that game was not great, and particularly Perkins. You know, just the size. Because of, you know, like where they had, you know, Gasol

and they had Bynum and then Odom, you know, was terrific for them. And then, like, Artest played 46 minutes in that game. Bopey played 45. And Gasol never came out. Gasol played 42 minutes in that game. Kobe played 45. And Gasol never came out. Gasol played 42 minutes in that game. He was incredible. Yeah. You almost stole the title.

I mean, really, it's a team. The 0-9 team should have won the title. The 2010 team probably shouldn't have. But came very, very close to stealing it. And it almost is more, I'm more tortured by that game six, game seven than any Celtics since 1987. 87 was the last one, but 2010, it was right there.

It was sitting there. Yes. With a ribbon on it. You never get over it. No. You never get over it. You just got to get around it. So who is...

And I give Danny a lot of credit, too. And from, you know, like when they did the Kevin deal, get around it. I give Danny a lot of credit, too. When they did the Kevin deal, they were hoping for three good years, and it ended up being six great years. That was just a tremendous move, and of course the Ray, and there were a lot of other guys that

were huge for us. When you look at Opposi, you look at Eddie Howes, Leon Paul, Glenn Davis, you know, all of them, they were that team was it had a lot of heart. And then the KG deal paid off a second time with that Brooklyn trade. KG,

we're still reaping the benefits of KG all these years later. Hold on, we gotta take one break here. Are you ever more angry, more annoyed, more infuriated than the moment you realize you've been lied to? I lied to Tate, the producer, last week. I told him that I thought UNC Hoops had a chance to make some noise in March Madness. And as soon as he finds out I lied, which is right now, he's going to be angry.

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So go to simplisafebill.com to get my exclusive 10% discount. simplisafebill..com back to tips. Uh, we're going to wrap up, but I wanted to ask, we were talking about what ifs with the, uh, with the Celtics and you had a,

what if 2012 you're going to the playoffs, you're the one seed. Um, Rose is playing at the highest possible level and gets hurt in round one, game one. And that's it. And he's never really the same physically after that. Just as a coach, you're sitting there.

This is your chance. This is the chance to make the finals. The league's kind of wide open that year. LeBron hadn't won a title in Miami yet. Nobody knew what was going on there. On the west side, the Lakers are kind of fading. OKC's not quite ready yet. How often do you think about that playoffs?

Yeah, it was heartbreaking for us, and particularly for Derek. And Derek, he had an amazing 2010-11 season in which he was the youngest MVP in the history of the league. When we came back the next year, that was the lockout year. We had another terrific season. And we're the number one seed. We have the top five offense and the top five defense.

And we thought we had a great shot that year. And unfortunately, that's part of the game you know and you hate to see it um but he he gets the acl and you know he's uh he's a terrific guy and he's still young and i'm still hopeful that he he'll bounce back it looks like he's he's getting his legs back now so hopefully that'll be the case. That team was a terrific team. I thought we had a good chance that year. It just didn't happen. What do you remember? It's now four years later. What do you remember from the 12 to 24 hours after

he goes down? The hardest thing was because of what he meant to the team and the type of guy that he is like the the the team it's a big hit when you lose somebody like that not just from a basketball standpoint but he's a he's such a great guy on top of it his teammates you know absolutely love him so uh that that was that was tough that you tough. The next game was a struggle, but then there was a lot of fight. And unfortunately, Joe Keen went down with an ankle in the next game, and C.J. Watson had a strained elbow, couldn't shoot. And we still ended up, we won a second game,

and we actually, in game six, we had a situation in which we missed two free throws at the end of the game until he came back at one. But we probably could have won that series if it comes back to Chicago. So just the disappointment of Derek being injured and knowing what he meant to the team and then of course you lose Joe King and then

going forward from there we endured a lot of heartache with the continuation of Derek going down but I absolutely loved that team because there was never any quit in them. Most teams when you lose your best player, it's a struggle.

These guys, they refuse to give in. They still always found a way to compete and be competitive. I have a lot of respect for that. When OKC traded James Harden, I wrote a column about the windows of NBA teams and how if the NBA has taught us anything over the last 40, 50 years, it's that you just never know when that window is going to end. And I'm always amazed, even like now with the Warriors. The Warriors are on an amazing year and a half run, but who knows? You just never know when something bad's going to happen. When you're in the middle of it as a coach, how aware are you of the mortality of your team? Or is that something you don't even think about

until something bad happens? Yeah. I mean, I think you go into every season and you're always thinking about, you know, you try to prepare for everything. And you prepare for the worst case scenarios. If something happens, what would we do? You know, obviously you're hopeful that it never happens. Right, right. But it's, you know, that's the one thing about this league is that things do change very quickly. And you always say, and it's both ways.

It can go from being great to being bad very quickly, and it can go from bad to being great very quickly. As you know, the 2008 experience, you know, if you look at the year before, you know, it was about as bad as it could get. Then next year, it was about as good as it could get. It can change very quickly on you. Then I think when it does change, it's how quickly can you adapt. That's the challenge that you're faced with.

I think every season you're faced with new and different challenges, but you never know what could happen. I know we ended up, after Derek got hurt, we lost Osik to a crazy situation with Houston. You never know how things can change. Same thing with James Harden.

I would say he was the other guy that really stood out with Team USA. Those guys come in and everyone was saying he won't play defense. He played great defense for us with Team USA. DeMarcus and Kevin Durant did the same.

I think that those guys, when you look at them and what they bring to teams, it's pretty remarkable. That's why when I'm watching Kyrie Irving play now, I see I know how he played in that World Cup, but I'm saying, wow,

this guy's as talented as anyone in the league. Yeah, that Cleveland team who just got a new coach, but they have LeBron and Love and Kyrie, all guys that you've rubbed shoulders with on Team USA, right? Wasn't Love in there? Yeah. He didn't play. He came through.

That's what I was saying. Some of the older guys from the Olympic team, during Vegas, they come through there to check on the guys and to check in with Jerry Colangelo and Mike. And they're just great to be around. When you spend time with them and you see that, if it didn't mean anything to them, you probably wouldn't see them there. Right, right.

So it's a lot of fun. That Cavs team, looking at it now, feels like a little bit of a sleeping giant because they were thrown off the first half of the year. Who knows what happened with the coach? Kyrie's not healthy. Loves being used in a way that obviously he wasn't responding to that well now they're trying to fix stuff getting a little

momentum would you say that's the sleeping kind of giant of this season or do you think it's somebody else well I would dispute the sleeping giant part because when you're talking about LeBron, you know, you're talking about a guy who's been in the finals five straight years, right? Right. So I don't know if anyone's saying sleeping giant, but I look at. Hibernating? Hibernating giant?

But, you know, like it's really, you know, sometimes I think you look at LeBron and you say, you know, like it's really, you know, sometimes I think you look at LeBron and you say, you know, people don't, even though he's obviously LeBron, what he's doing is amazing. You know, every year in the finals and, you know, you look at the minutes that he played in the four years in Miami and to still be doing it at the level that he's doing it at, that's a credit to him.

And now Kyrie's biggest thing is the help. If he's healthy, he's impossible to guard. And then, you know, like if Kevin gets comfortable and they've changed the lineup with, you know with Tristan Thompson going into the starting lineup, which has made them a lot faster. They're playing Jefferson at the four. They're playing LeBron at the four. So that's changed that dynamic.

And now Love is playing a little bit of five as well. So they're a real interesting team. I look at them and I'm saying, okay, they're going to score more and then the question is, can they still remain an elite defensive team? Like right now, I think they're second in offensive efficiency

and ninth in defensive efficiency. So they're giving up. When you take Moscow out of the starting lineup, you're giving up the shot blocking at the rim. Anytime When you take Moskov out of the starting lineup, you're giving up the shot blocking at the rim. That's what you're doing, but you're also gaining a lot more speed. There's a trade-off.

Then you have to ask yourself, in the end, what gives us the best chance to win it? I would say having LeBron on the team really helps. I have three quick questions left. I've always had a theory, and you'll like this because this is right in your wheelhouse, that the title is always decided by who can control the five feet in front of the rim and around the rim.

And even you look back at 2010 Game 7, it really came down to those five feet, and the Lakers won the five feet and got the rebounds and protected all that stuff. But now basketball is starting to shift into this, into this sport where the shooting is becoming the dominant X factor. And yet I still feel like when we get to the playoffs, it's going to be about that five feet.

What do you think? Well, you probably, the playoffs are a different animal because it's the same team, you know, over and over again. So you're going to know, you know, everything that's come, their tendencies, their out-of-time outplays, every action. Like you see the shooting percentages go way down. You know, the rotations go down. So instead of playing, you know, 10 or 9, now it becomes 8 or 7.

You look at the minutes of the star players in the playoffs, particularly the further you go, they get up to 38, 40 minutes a game. It's a different game. The rebounding component, you cannot overlook.

That's critical. That's why you want to see, like usually when you look at the final four teams every year, if you went back the last 20 years, they're well-balanced, they're efficient offensively and defensively, but the rebounding component is huge. It's hard to win it without being a dominant rebounding team. So I think the size does matter.

I think that, you know, like we always felt in Boston that, clearly when we were playing against LeBron, if you were facing high pick and roll and yet they were taking one seven-footer away from the basket, you always wanted to have the second seven-footer at the basket. You always wanted to have the second seven-footer at the basket. So having that second guy with size I think is important. But I think the one thing you could take from the Golden State is they have the great versatility of playing big and playing small. They can go with Bogut, who's terrific, Azealy, who's terrific,

and then the wild card is Draymond. So now Draymond goes to the five. And now, see, the thing is, it's the enormous pressure that they're going to put on you when they go to that lineup because now they're going to go to switching the pick and rolls. Now what do you do? If you hold on to the ball, let the clock wind down

and settle for the jump shot, long jump shot over Draymond, and now it's a miss, now you put them in the open because whoever gets the rebound, and they've got guys that are going to fight for that rebound, when they get it, they're flying at you. This isn't like a walk-off. And now it's not going to be a traditional first big to the rim, second big trail type transition.

They're going to be flying to the corners. The floor is going to be open. And then it's wide open driving kick or the open three for, you know, player Steph or, you know, a bigger dollar. Or if they get Draymond on the roll, his playmaking ability, you know, it's not an easy transition. So you have to understand what you're going to do. And then how are you going to handle the pick and roll with Steph and Draymond?

You know, are you going to switch that? Are you going to handle the pick and roll with Steph and Draymond? Are you going to switch that? Are you going to blitz that? Because that's going to put enormous pressure on you as well. Since 1989, best team you saw? We can't take it to 86? Were you in the league in 86? No, but I was in boston well but listen all right so this is a trick question because we all know i mean it's it's a foreground conclusion the 86 celtics were the greatest team of all time so from 89 on

question yeah so from 89 on who who was the best team you coached against or coached for? I'd say, you know, the Jordan Bulls were, that 72-win team was, that was a great, great team. That was the hardest team, I think, to coach against. How come? Just because, you know, like Jordan could break it down so many different ways. And he made everyone else

a lot better than what they were. You know, like he probably still doesn't get enough credit for how great. You know, you can make obviously the case that he's the greatest ever, along with Bill Russell or whoever else you want to put in that

argument, but what he did in the physicality that was in the league at that point, to do it the way he did it for six out of eight years, and who knows what would have happened in those two years in between.

But he made everyone so much better, and he was just such a killer. You know, he was going to come at you. He was going to post you. He was going to be off the dribble. He was going to be in the pick and roll. And then he was going to take your best player, and he was going to guard him and make it impossible.

And then Pippen, the same thing. You know, then Horace Grant, then Rodman, then great role players. That run was incredible by them. And then I'd say after that, pick any one of the Spurs teams just because of the balance. When you're dealing with David Robinson and Tim Duncan, you know, it's impossible. That team was very, very difficult to get a good quality shot against.

But you're probably happy that Shaq and Kobe ultimately couldn't get along in parted ways because that decade probably could have been done if they got along. Yeah, you could put them in there too because that's probably – I mean Shaq was as dominant as any big man ever. It was impossible to guard him with one. Kobe off the dribble was impossible to guard. So you had two guys that virtually you had to commit your whole team to.

And that team was very difficult to play against. And then the toughest team that I was with was obviously the Celtic team. Right. All right, so you're taking this year off. You're out of the loop. But then next season you think you'll coach again yeah i mean this year has been great for me you know as i said it's a much broader view uh we'll wait till the end of the season i do miss the competition you know so i you know the right situation comes along i'd

you know love to get back into it isn't't there like some sort of local Illinois high school team you could moonlight on for a month and just whip the guys into shape, start yelling at them? I don't know if they'd be ready for that. So wait a second. So if you're looking at... Right now I have fun just harassing all my friends that are coaching. And it's funny when you're looking at it from this perspective.

So the Clippers are playing, and I'm watching Doc. And you know so well, you know what the look means. I'm saying, man, I hope I didn't look like that. So when you're looking at the next job last thing are you like if you had to weigh the variables would you where would you put it for next five years of the roster um owner gm front office infrastructure the city uh best player like what What's the number one variable when you're looking at a next job? That's a good question. I think all of the above. I think you want to gather the information, evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of it,

and then try to make a good decision where you feel like you'll be a good fit and where you could be for an extended amount of time. I think the makeup of the roster is critical. I obviously want to have the right type of guys. I've been around long enough. I've been in just about every situation. I've been with young teams.

I've been with old teams. I've been with in-between teams. I think it's what you make it. If there's a shared vision where you have certain things that you believe in as an organization and a commitment made

by everybody where you can go in and try to get the most out of each and every day and hopefully have a chance to build a championship caliber team. That's what I'm looking for and I'm hopeful that that's what will happen. Whose opinion do you value more for this next job?

Van Gundy or Doc? If you have to pick one, you throw out the other guy. Do you trust one of those guys? That's a good question. Pick them. You have to get rid of one. I have a board of directors.

Okay, good. Smart. I'm going to the board. I'm not relying on any one or two. It's a board. All right. I'd like to apply to be on the board if you need any more board members. You're on it.

Tibbs, this was a pleasure. You did it. You're a media person now. This was fun. All right. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Good luck with the rest of the season. Thanks. You did it. You're a media person now. This was fun. All right. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Good luck with the rest of the season.

Thanks. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye-bye. All right. Thanks to Tibbs. And just for the record, I didn't want to ask him a whole bunch of questions about the bulls and what happened and all that stuff because he's taken a year sabbatical here

and he's been very, very private about all that stuff. And I'm sure he'll say whatever he has to say at some point, but it wasn't going to be on this podcast. I just wanted to talk hoops with him. And down the road, if he wants to talk about it, we're here. Anyway, thanks to Tibbs. Thanks to SimpliSafe. They have no long-term contracts, period. You get the best 24-7 security protection possible for just $14.99 a month. It's the only security I trust. Visit SimpliSafeBill.com to get my 10% off discount.

SimpliSafeBill.com. And thanks to HBO, you don't need cable or satellite to watch HBO anymore. Download the HBO Now app and start your free one-month trial today. Coming to HBO Now later this month, because it is February, Fast 7 and San Andreas. Oh, yeah. Those are two rewatchable movies. Speaking of rewatchable movies, check out the Channel 33 podcast,

because not only are we talking about the phenomenal Greece TV experiment yesterday that Fox did, Julia and Amanda will be talking about that on Jam Session. But Chris and Andy will be on there, a whole bunch of stuff. Check out Channel 33. Thanks to SeatGeek, the presenting sponsor of the BS Podcast and Channel 33. Subscribe to both podcasts on iTunes, Stitcher, or SoundCloud. Back later this week, the Super Bowl props. Cousin Sal, it's coming.

Be patient. We will have it. Midweek. Talk to you soon. We about this bitch. Anytime y'all want to see me again, rewind this track right here. Close your eyes. And picture me rolling. Love