The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 80: Mike Tollin

Episode Date: March 24, 2016

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons welcomes 30 for 30 director and Mandalay Sports Media co-chairman Mike Tollin to discuss Ben Simmons and the state of Philly sports (11:00), 'The White Shadow' (18:00), Bill's idea for 'Varsity Blues 2’ (27:00), GSW's winning culture (32:30), MLB Opening Day (38:00), the Clippers’ chances (48:30), the death of the USFL (59:00), and his greatest meeting ever, with Donald Trump (1:02:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Today's episode is also brought to you by our old friend Stamps.com. We'll see you next time. for stamps.com and use my promo code BS for a four week trial plus $110 bonus offer, including postage and a digital scale. Go to stamps.com. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in BS. And we're also brought to you by the ringer.com. Sign up for our new free newsletter. We've done like five or six of them. Mike Tone, it's probably in your spam folder. It's in there. Like I'm, I'm trying everybody in the office is reading it. They're like quoting things and I'm, where am I? I'm not in the party. Yeah, just go to your...

It's probably in your spam. Yeah. Tate, let's go! Did you ever hire Tupac to be in a movie you did in the 90s or anything? Well, the show. You know the show. You've obviously seen the show. Can you picture us?

What? Back in the early 90s, we did that hip-hop doc in Philly. Shot it on the campus of drexel and it was biggie's heyday you never saw that oh you're getting a dvd at your house is it it's got to be on like netflix or one of those places now it's in my personal library you love it no early 90s tupac biggie it's like run dmc and what biggie and puffy when he was still puffy and warren g got booed off the stage. That's my dude.

I love Warren G. You did? Yeah. It was a whole East Coast, West Coast thing. They didn't like him in Philly. Interesting. So you're East Coast. Well, you know, Philly.

Snoop was there. You've lived there for 30 years. I have. No, not that many. 25? Not quite half my life, Bill. Do the math. That's Mike Tolan, who, longtime TV movie guy, did one of the first 30 for 30s. Number three it was, actually.

Yeah. The USFL one, which we're going to talk about. Co-owner of my Clipper season tickets. The man who convinced me to keep the tickets in like 2008 or 2000. I think it was the year Blake blew out out his knee or maybe the year before. It was before that. Yeah, definitely before that. I was going to give him up.

I was like, this is the worst investment I've ever made. It's been five years of terrible. Coming from Oklahoma. Yeah. And now we're waiting for him to come back. What's the over under a number of home games in the playoffs? I have a big prediction. Wow.

I've not heard this yet? No. I'm excited. What's today's date, Tate? March 24th? Yep. I don't think we see Blake Griffin in a Clipper uniform this season. And I don't think we ever see him in a Clippers uniform ever again.

Will we see him in a Celtics uniform? I don't know. I think they trade him this summer. You guys have the most guys. You may not have any great ones, but you could package three okay, mediocre guys, which might be just what the Clippers are looking for. We have all the picks. We'd have to do a three-teamer because they're going to want to win right away if they trade Blake.

It's March 24th. There's like 10 games left in the season. He's got to serve a four-game suspension. They keep saying, what is it, the calf or the quad or whatever it is? The quad is not healing. He's got some knee arthritis stuff. He's the broken shooting hand.

Can't they just have him warm up and say he's healthy, and okay, let's start the clock on the suspension? Who's going to know, right? You know what I'm saying? Oh, you mean, it's like, oh, he's ready. Yeah. Wouldn't the NBA check that? How would they?

Like, if he's shooting, and he's saying, I'm good to go, and he's sitting there? I don't know. I'm just trying to get him some time. It seems like the kind of thing that you could get away with in the NFL, but not the NBA. What are you saying about the NFL? I'm saying a lot.

Let's just go right to Rods, can we? Can we go to his like, sorry, you're not getting- You probably like him. You're not getting your draft choices back? Are you bitter all over again? Of course. How am I not bitter? I'm more bitter at my owner.

Because he's a Trump supporter or- He's a nice guy, no. There's that. Your quarterback at my owner. Because he's a Trump supporter? He's a nice guy. There's that. Your quarterback and your owner. How are you a self-respecting Patriots fan? Look, I've rooted for people who did worse things than that. Than Trump? Oh, then rooted for Trump.

I've just rooted for people who've committed crimes and said terrible things and done terrible things. If I have to look into the mirror about who I'm rooting for, then I shouldn't follow sports. Yeah. I'm with you on that separation of church and state. Totally. My favorite thing is Iverson, right? Like my kid is wearing an Iverson jersey and my mom says, how could you let your son parade around in that outfit of a thug? I'm like, mom, he's the smallest guy on the court, and he plays the hardest, and he gets up, and it's like, who better to teach your kids how to appreciate NBA, right? You love, I mean, one of the reasons you love me is because I am an Iverson defender. I know. I love Iverson.

Well, you see right through the uniform. By the way, did you notice I'm wearing green today for you? Thank you. I figured that was. As I was driving, no, it was like subconscious. And I thought, there were many years in my life where I wasn't allowed to wear green. Right. Because there was such intense Celtic hatred. Like, the famous thing was after the 72 Olympics when the Russians stole the gold medal.

And we had a poll of all my guys in Philly. It's like, so if the Russians were playing the Celtics... Who would you root for? Yeah, the Russians. Unanimous. And then it peaked in 80, 81, 82. Now the Sixers-Celtics rivalry is pretty much dead. And basketball in Philadelphia is dead.

No, no, not dead. There's this Monty Python sketch where they go. They're in a race, and he goes, dead, but not necessarily out of it. Or dead, but not. How about Moutier last night? Did you see the shot? You wish he was on your team? I just wish he didn't, like, make this ridiculous going sideways,

knock the ball off my knee, 35-footer at the buzzer. Yeah, but that's good. It's good for Philly to lose. No, no, no, because we've clinched the worst record by a mile. Oh, so now you're looking for moral victories? Well, I'm, like, tied with the worst record ever from the Roy Rubin 72-76ers, right? So we're 9-63. We have 10 games left to break it and there might not be a prize in this lottery yeah what do you think about your nephew I'm a little

worried about my nephew yeah so let's recap goes to uh LSU mysterious the godfather is the assistant coach right I'm a defender I'm just the case that's being laid out to him now. I don't like. Disqualified from wooden consideration. Well, so I think people in the league think it's a little sketchy that he won't tell us you. They think it's a little sketchy that his sister was working for Clutch Sports in some way well before he signed with them. Sketchy. They think it's a little sketchy that he ended up at Coach Sports.

Right. They think it's a little sketchy that he, for the last month of the season, maybe wasn't going all out. Almost seemed like he was in body self-preservation mode over, I got to carry these guys. We can't lose. We have to make the tournament. Yeah.

And then just dropped out of school like in mid-March. Yeah. I don't like any of this. So I was talking to a general manager. You say this all the time. I don't get to do this. So I was talking to a general manager. You say this all the time. I don't get to do this that often. Yeah, that's great. That's right.

I didn't know you knew general managers. Yeah, well, I'm not telling. I know a couple. But he said now that they're preparing for the draft, they go through and they look at all the missed, like surefire guys that missed. And it's all character stuff, right? So you look at your nephew versus Brandon Ingram

and the whole Coach K and premature? Yeah. I think we might take Ingram. I think we actually— I think he's got a slight edge. I think it's character or injury concerns. Like with Odin, that was a big thing when people measured him and his legs weren't the same size. And they were like, oh, so we put—

My dream is we get Inram and chris dunn because we desperately need a point guard with no offense to is smith my favorite current sixer well you you're gonna get ingram or simmons but i think with simmons the competitiveness thing i think that's what they look at more than anything now i think there's just a track record now of like the guys that make it are the guys who are competitive in games, like my boy Buddy in Oklahoma. And or, like the Kawhi Leonard story from a couple weeks ago by Lee Jenkins, where even when he went 13th and San Antonio was trying to trade. Even at that point in his career, he's up at 630 in the morning shooting threes and trying to prove to people he can make threes. I don't know if Ben Simmons is wired like that.

It's the Steph thing, right? It's not going to happen, but the notion that people are talking about the guy that wins the MVP could win the most improved player the same year. He just wants to get better. But I hope maybe this will be great for Ben Simmons. I'm not canceling him out by any means. I'm not crossing him off. I'm not putting an asterisk next to him.

I think if he goes second, maybe that's the best thing that happens. Yeah. I think it was great for Durant to go second. Right. Except it is kind of a dark, it's a black hole. There's like a long history of disastrous number twos, as you know. True. Durant's a good one though.

Yeah. I don't know. I'm just afraid whoever we pick is the wrong guy. Look, we got Embiid. You could have had Porzangis. Embiid is like, are you just crossing him off? What happens with Embiid? No, no, no. We actually did a ride-along with him for Vice Sports.

And he keeps going back to guitar for special Kobe-like secrets. I don't understand that. You don't understand guitar? No, I don't understand. If you were like, I'm going to guitar, I'd be like, what? He's gone back the second time. Hey, I'm not asking questions.

He has shot. Yeah, why would you ask questions about a guy who hasn't played for two years and flies to Qatar? So we have him not playing. We have Okafor not playing. We have Saric and Turkey not playing. Okafor had a real injury. I know. Torn meniscus.

It was like, that's not. Well, I'm not suggesting they're tanking. They didn't have to tank. No, I'm just a little worried about him. I'm worried about the dude from Turkey. Bad season, he punched somebody. the up and down of Saric. Oh, Saric. There's so many guys out there that aren't.

Noel didn't play last night either. I'm just afraid he's going to take Ben because he doesn't want to draft anybody under 6'10". We're going to play with all frontcourt guys. What would you do if the Celts had four and philly had two and we traded up two spots and gave you like a whole boatload of more picks that you could possibly still get chris done maybe in the four spot yeah um let's let's call that into the league right now okay we might be able to get to three i want to stay at three i just want the lake so so the lakers now even in the papers they're like celebrating their win or their loss to the Suns.

It's great. It's so embarrassing, though. They're playing Ron Artest 25 minutes a game. Shooting 29%. He's been washed up for four years, and they're just throwing him out there. They have young guys to play. More minutes than Elton Brand. He's a veteran.

It's like, what? He's terrible. And then his name has World Peace on the back. I'm watching a game two days ago. He's a veteran. It's like, what? He's terrible. And then his name has World Peace on the back. I'm watching a game two days ago. He gets kicked out. It's like, I thought you were for World Peace. It's a different kind of peace, Bill. You have to defend.

So the great thing is they have a 56% chance of not losing their pick. Of a top two. No, of staying in the top three, which is what the protection is for the Laker pick. So the Sixers have their own Miami and Oklahoma City. Now forget the Sacramento trade thing. I mean, that could be important. But you could swap it. Right.

I think if Sacramento won the lottery, that's actually good for you because they would jump the Lakers and knock them down one. Now the Lakers are three and then all you need is one more team to jump them, and then you get that pick too. But so if the Lakers don't get their pick, right,

and everybody's complaining, does Kobe come back for another year? You could end up with one, three, and four. It's conceivable. Oh, no, I'm sorry. No, no, we can't get Sacramento. One, four, and seven. Yeah. No, no, we don't get Sacramento.

We only get to swap it if they're higher. So we don't get ours and theirs. So you could end up with one and four. One and four, and then the two non-lottery guys. I mean, the OKC and Miami Picks. They got to stop with the protection and the swap. It's too confusing. I know.

I feel like I'm a relatively smart guy. I can't even remember how it plays out. Relatively. So wait a second. Two camps of Philly, right? One is that this is great. You're playing the the odds this is the advanced metrics way to build a team just if you're gonna be bad you might as well just be horrendous i'm not matriculating that camp it's too many years bill like i drank that kool-aid for two we're way past that i mean you

just had your 50th birthday party you don't have four or five years to waste. I love that math, man. I'm 46. I think about it all the time. And then I remember, oh, wait, I won nine titles. I'm fine. It'd be good. Everything else is gravy. Let's see.

I won two. I got two. This century, I have nine titles. That's sick. It's great. And you just love seeing time. Not counting the two Kings titles that the Kings won for my two kids

to get them into sports I really have 11 you can't count them ah so I have one so I have two Sixers two Phillies

67 and 83 yeah wow is that both when was Philly Philly Philly Phillies

Philly 80 and 08 Eagles 0 for life. You can't count 60 because it was pre-Super Bowl. Flyers, you know, four years. Oh, that's interesting. So you don't count 60. I didn't get to go.

So if Cleveland didn't count 64, I mean, it gets really dark. It's all about being 0 for life, right? So anybody under 52 is 0 for life in Cleveland. When did you realize Chip wasn't going to work out? Oh, my God. I have to say I was ahead of the curve on that one. You were? He's just, you know, like it's sort of my thing about there's got to be a culture.

I mean, he always talks about the culture is more important than the scheme. The culture was miserable. Yeah. He just, he's one of those guys who can't look you in the eye. He, like, walks to the other side of the hallway. I have one good friend on the team who really was supportive up until the point where it was over. And then he started telling me the truth about the whole sports science thing was a sham. It was proven all wrong.

All the guys he hired as his chief of staff were antagonizing everybody. And repeatedly getting rid of black players keeping white players was getting weird my thing is it wasn't all black players though i was like i know but i like to i like to just talk in general yeah so i go he's not racist he's fascist it's a it's a broader categorization of a guy who just doesn't like understand i mean he's all about team concept but it's not really i mean deshaun and leswn, they weren't bad team players. They were just guys who came from different parts of the world, thought differently.

He didn't want to deal with it. Nah, it's too hard for him. So, Howie Roseman is just like, you know, shredding any trace of the Chip Kelly era. That was weird. Yeah, he's done some good things, though. I like the backup. I like Chase Daniel. He got a good guard, Brooks. He got a good

cornerback from the Rams. The good news is their division's a mess. Yeah, we keep... I mean, who knows? Nine and seven could take it. Just picked up Randall from the Giants. We're getting a lot of mediocre receivers. So would you say Philly sports fans always upset, always unhappy, miserable?

Out of one to ten, where is this on a typical Philly sports year right now? Oh, well, I mean, you have to go back to the early 70s to be this bad. When it gets really dark. Yeah. So it's still, even in Philly misery scale, it's like a 9. Oh, a 9? 9 in terms of misery.

Yeah. I mean, it depends which way you're going in version. Like 10 being the worst. Like you can't get out of bed. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, we got a nine it's like an eight and a half all right so because at least you got at least the football you have a new coach and all that stuff the great news is 36 million for sam bradford no problem it's not my money it's like david price come on let's be real david price in the last half of that contract

you're gonna be like where is he now is Is he coaching? Oh, I love David Price. Of course you do. That'd be great. We can use him on Nessun. He's a good guy. He can announce. Hey, we did a thing with him, actually. First plug. Movie called Fastball. Is there anything you haven't done?

Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot, Bill. Come on, don't embarrass me. Fastball's a John Hawk documentary. Yeah, Friday night. Yeah, theater near you. Yeah, I did this David Price and Andrew McCutcheon thing with these great visual effects. And then I went to Omaha, spent a day with bob gibson you think he's like this crazy

scary intimidating dude right was that new yorker profile and the bean balls and the bean balls and the new yorker profile about just how competitive the dude was those are the two legacies of bob gibson other than the 112 vra but the whole thing thing of squinting was just because he couldn't see. Right. He was just blind. McCarver had to put tape on his fingers so he could see the signs. He toured me around the house and we hung out. That's amazing, by the way.

How did he field ground balls and how did he not get hit by a line drive? He couldn't see. Richie Allen always said he was the guy. You couldn't dig in. He owned the inside part of the play. Like, you know, you couldn't dig in, right? He owned the inside part of the play, which guys don't do anymore. Right. He was great. I do miss those days of –

Who does that now? Does anybody really? Well, and also just how fast they at-bats were. Like sometimes MLB Network will show stuff from the 70s, and it's just boom, boom, guy stays in the box pitch. Gets a back pitch. Gets a back pitch. Maybe we'll get that back.

Wait, so. This is the best time of the year, though. Fastball. Fastball Friday night. Select theaters. Select theaters. John Hawk, who's done many of the memorable 30 for 30s and also did a couple good 30 for 30 shorts for us.

Yeah. He's a great guy. Great filmmaker. Yeah, excited to. Let. He's a great guy. Great filmmaker. Yeah. Excited to. Let's talk about The White Shadow. So we lost Ken Howard yesterday, who I had the pleasure of meeting in the 2012 Producers Guild Awards before the awards.

We saw him. Did you talk to him about the show? I wouldn't go over him. My wife made me go over. I was like, I can't. I can't. I just was too nervous to go over. And I never get nervous with celebrities with that one. I like i can't i can't what if he's not a

good guy did you get a selfie or an autograph or anything oh yeah 20 minutes john doll was with me and then i got a picture and uh i think about the nine minute mark i started to frighten him a little bit because we're talking white shadow and i'm just rattling off episodes and characters and at some point he realized i knew more about the white shadow than he did. And he was on the show. I remember the moment when I realized you knew more about Varsity Blues than I did. It is scary. It's the same kind of uh-oh.

It's time to pull back. Wait a second. This is sort of not healthy. So I was thinking though. Did he have his hair piece or not? I guess he didn't go out with that. I don't know. I couldn't tell.

He's so tall. You're just kind of looking up at his chin. He's a good basketball player. You know, somebody emailed me this, one of my friends, about how he was kind of like our coach for our generation of people kind of between 40 and 55. He was like the first basketball coach that belonged to all of us. Ken Reeves. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

As long as I've known you, which is what, 15 years? Yeah. You've been pitching the remake. But sometimes you just don't want to do it, right? Well, now it's been so far. Yeah. I mean, you did Coach Carter, which was a little bit of the same kind of guy saves the... It's the black shadow.

Yeah. I don't even think you need to remake it. If you just go into a high school and you just... I mean, Friday Night Lights is not incredibly different from that White Shadow scenario of the savior coach comes in and tries to change people's lives. There have been so many movies about it. It was just the one that came along at the right time, like you said.

And a few of those guys, Thomas Carter, who directed Coach Carter. Well, it was this weird vortex of that kind of after-school special, very special episode culture in a drama, but then really good basketball footage, but then a cast of mostly black kids, which was just unheard of in the late 70s for a drama. They would do it for a couple comedies, but it was always like Good Times, Stanford and Son,

The Jeffersons. Right. Shorty Shorts was kind of cool. The Really Short Shorts. Oh, yeah. And you may not know Wolf Perry. Know that name? He was a Stanford player who was on the team.

Oh, yeah, he was season three. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was good. I don't really recognize that season. Good shooter. I wish that it ended when Jackson got shot. That should have been the final episode.

I just would have ended the series. It would have been like a walk-off Grand Slam. But it's like saying you wish Michael Jordan didn't play for the Wizards, right? Some great episodes, though. Tackled I saw Peter Horton when I was at HBO and I saw Peter Horton and he was kind of looking at me because after I went on that NBA show, anyone who likes basketball

they're kind of like, is that the white guy from Countdown? That's the look I get every once in a while. So I went over to him and I was like, hey, man, I'm a big fan. And he was like, oh, yeah, I thought that was you. We were talking. I was like, I've been with you since the White Shadow, man. It was like the first gay character on a show like that. And he was like blown away.

It's like, oh, my God, you remember that? But it was they had this guy. He might be gay, he might not. There was some gay bashing. It was like episode six, but that's, they tackled shit like that every week. It was great. It was a great show. Did you talk to Peter Horton about 30 something or no?

No. Were you a fan? It was one of my mom's like five favorite shows. That's another one that could probably come back. I would watch that. Yeah. Good cast. You could I would watch that. Yeah. Good cast. You could do that one again.

So we lost Ken Howard and we lost Tony Burton, Apollo Crews' trainer in Rocky. Yeah, but wait, before we do. This is a bad start to 2016. Now I'm worried about Gabe Kaplan. No, Gabe's got a long way to go. These are all my sports movie, sports TV icons. Can I just talk about Ken Howard's other not as memorable role? You like this?

Is this going to upset me? Yeah. That's why I'm talking about it. No, maybe it's good for you to have a little therapy about Arliss, right? Oh. So. You know, you've never rallied me on Arliss. It was just a Robert Wolf thing.

The last episode of the first season. Yeah. We had this episode about a Mickey Mantle-like character who's down and out. He's an alcoholic. He's broke. And he comes up with the master scheme, which is to go on home shopping and sell his sperm because it's so athletically gifted. And it's Ken Howard. Who better?

Think of Ken Howard playing a down-and-out older Mickey Mantle. He was great. And we loved him. And he just sat there and like put us on his knee and told us stories about the White Shadow. Really good guy. It's a good episode. Watch it.

I'll send it to you. Like two months ago, you know, I troll eBay. I've been looking for our new podcast studio that we're building. Right. So I always check out White Shadow just to make sure I'm not going to miss anything. They had a Nike White Shadow Ken Howard poster.

Wow. And I was like, I did like a quadruple take. I'm like, what? I didn't even know it existed. And then I'm like, I'm ending up with this. I don't care what the price is. So I put some crazy max bid and it ended up going for like 30 bucks because I'm the only person who cared that this was on there. I think I was the only bidder.

And it's this awesome Ken Howard poster. So I got that. It's in my office. You know, I have two things that I bought on auction thanks to you that you were trolling me. I always send you the Phillies stuff. You know, it's my prized possession, a 1967 68 and 13 Sixers championship ashtray. Yeah. It's so great.

I think I found that one for you, right? And then there's that like Canada Dry with all the guys with all the Phillies faces from the 80s Phillies. And it's like Canada Dry sticker and then Philly black and white photo. It just sits. Somehow I got away with it. Robbie never kicked it out of the house. Well, you have a collector's convention in Atlantic City in July that's going to have a lot of Philly stuff. And I'd be very disappointed in you.

Are you going? I can't because I think I'm going to have stuff. Well, maybe I'll represent. Stuff happening. I'll have a little Skyping thing going with you, and I'll send you photos, and I'll make bids for you. You did One Tree Hill. Did White Shadow influence One Tree Hill? Nah, not really.

The basketball stuff? The basketball footage was good. It was good. That's just because we hired the right guys. We hired the same guys that did Varsity Blues and all our sports movies. So we cared. My thing on One Tree Hill was, and any of the guys who worked on it, the directors and the writers, you're not allowed to go to a close-up of the basket and show the ball going in.

The ball has to be continuous from leaving the end. Yeah, you have to. Yeah. So that was a little hard with CMM. Yeah. It was a little tough with uh CMM with Chad yeah it was a little tough we did a lot of like some creative editing

with CMM 15 takes yeah but James could play the other guy my favorite cut to the my favorite cut ever was Fish That Saved Pittsburgh

the big white guy with the goggles right he shot the ball and then they cut to the ball going through the room and he was under the basket trying to rebound it.

Are you guys trying? He was fast, man. I mean, there's been some basketball movies where they will just, Teen Wolf was another one where they'll just loop the footage. I think they showed the same Michael J. Fox layup like from 18 different angles because he probably only made three of them. Hey, we launched our new golf podcast this week Really? Yeah Who's on it?

It's hosted by Jeff Shackelford And my buddy Joe House And it's called Shack House Related to It's presented by Callaway Related to Lynn? No It's presented by Callaway

And today it is number one on iTunes Sweet Now they rigged the rankings So that newer podcasts get elevated up But still we're very excited Shack House is number one You know why we created that podcast? rigged the rankings so that newer podcasts get elevated up but still we're very excited shack house is number one uh you know why we created that podcast other than that we wanted that house to have more money for food no uh because we're two weeks away from the masters the weather is

warming up soon and it's time to start thinking about golf um are you are you sporting new callaway sticks by any chance is that one of the reasons you started i was just gonna tell you if you're not playing an iron with Callaway's industry-leading 360 face cup technology, you're playing with inferior technology. You're losing out on distance. Their irons have a face built to change the game. And you know who's using their Callaway XR driver, the new one?

Phil Mickelson, 50-1 to win the Masters. A lefty stick. Yeah, sleeper alert. 50-1 if you want to join us. What's Jordy's speed? It's really weird to figure out what he's doing now. He's in a funk right now. He's trying to throw people off the scent. Visit Callaway.Golf.com for more information on the new

XR driver. You can buy it. You can brag about it. Same thing for the Irons, which are fantastic. Subscribe to Shack House on iTunes or SoundCloud. That's the Shack House podcast presented by Callaway. Wait, wait, wait. No.

Am I getting new clubs for sitting here and listening to you do that? Nothing? Not even a driver? Yeah. We already promoted fastball. You got some of those.

Wait a second. Wait, wait. We got to stay on golf for one more second. I wouldn't have brought it up, but since you brought me there, Lukey, as you know, my 16,

I'm 17 now, your old son, is the number one golfer on the Westmark team. Yesterday he went out and 175-yard par three, what would you use? Your old son is the number one golfer on the Westmark team. And yesterday he went out. And 175-yard par 3, what would you use? What club would you use?

175 yards. It's right between a 4 and a 5 for me. It's a 9. Oh, wow. Lip the cup. Wow. Two feet away for birdie. Wow, you might not have to pay for college.

I know. It's kind of cool, right? He's pretty psyched. We got to get Lukey some Callaway clubs. All right, we haven't talked about this since I came up with the idea, but I think I've been badgering you about email. Varsity Blues 2, which we have talked about in the podcast, now has taken a new form because of the tragic death of Paul Walker.

Yes. Which every time Fast 7 is on, I still get upset. I watch the NA all over again. I never realized I love Paul Walker so much. Which every time Fast 7 is on, I still get upset. I watch the NL over again. I never realized I love Paul Walker so much. He was so great. What a loss. Great guy. I really fast ate on it. I just don't understand how it's, I just don't feel the same.

Did you ever meet him? No. He is just like you would expect. And want him to be. Yeah. Sweet. Knew how to use those beautiful blue eyes. Charming as hell but he

could act it was understated but like i mean what's varsity blues without that right i mean you got john voight you got the beak you got ally you got amy but like kind of paul walker's movie and so so you want to pitch the uh well but the original pitch of varsity blues too yeah was that paul walker was still there lance harbor right never got to play to college because it was a terrible knee injury like a marcus marcus latimer type of knee injury who's the other guy sean livingston willis mcgee sean livingston never really was able to come back maybe play a little div too in texas right ends up settling as the coach there what was the school called uh i forget that's embarrassing you know more west

something high uh yeah whatever state what was it called tate's gonna look it up uh but now we don't have paul walker that doesn't mean we can't have varsity blues too i think it starts at the funeral west west canaan west canaan Coyotes. It starts at the funeral for Lance Harbor. Right, of course it does. Lance Harbor's passed away. Everyone comes back, including Mox. Now, Mox, after Varsity Blues, he went into the internet business. He started up, made a lot of money, married somebody who's good looking.

Not Amy Smart. Not Ally either. Not either one of them. Just somebody in the East Coast. Met somebody, married, looking. Not Amy Smart. Not Ally either. Not either one of them. Just somebody in the East Coast. Met somebody, married, had a very nice life. Something happened. He's divorced. The stock collapsed a little bit.

He's at a little bit of a crossroads of his life. Right. He's back home. School's in trouble. Doesn't have a coach. The beak. The beak is back. Nah, he's thinking about it about he needs to be talked into it

the principal of the school now is the black running back that he i can't remember the guy's name eli swinton yeah stanford running back in real life yeah so that guy's the principal now and he's like hey man this they're cutting my funding we might lose the program he's like mox is like what you'll lose the program well maybe i like, Mox is like, what? You're going to lose the program? Well, maybe I can stay around and help out for a couple weeks. Kicks off, gets a practice,

some hothead quarterback. Mox teaches him how, no, all of a sudden he's in. There you go. Varsity Blues 2. Wow. Yeah,

we're off. It's John Gaten's listening. He wrote Varsity Blues 1 even though the poster doesn't say that. We're off. The funeral's going to be so sad, the beginning. I mean, it's almost like the big chill.

Great start to the big chill, right? The funeral, the Rolling Stones songs kind of sets the tone for what's to come. So is it a series or a movie? I think you want the eight episodes streaming money right now. You go to one of the places, you just tell them, and they're just like, oh, here's a yeah fuller great if they can do fuller house they can do vb2 i think totally yeah vb2 13 start putting out the vb2 poster the beak it's not really for hbo though it's not going to work at your place no hbo wouldn't do it well they're not really streaming what interesting vb i vb the beak i think part of this is he spent some time with

some football coaches he really wants to get this right right it's a couple days with chip kelly in san francisco ali shows up sort of just for morale how do you think for ali larder having a nice career in my favorites do you think having been the whipped cream bikini girl is a positive or is it sort of a drag at this point? I don't think her career played out the way I wanted it to. And I feel the same way about Kelly Preston, previous generation. I think every decade has the blonde that just should have gone on to huge things. And Ally Larder, the heroes was fun. She's in that show now about the –

She's in the show now about the she's in the pitch female pitcher yeah yeah I never feel like it got there for her but that's the thing it's like I think she's got a nice life

um actresses need luck no I'm sure she has a nice life but actresses need luck they need that one you know like Sandra Bullock at Speed right

it's a great role she was awesome in it but that could have been probably seven actresses from that generation it's just a great role in a great movie in it, but that could have been probably seven actresses from that generation. It's just a great role in a great movie. She never had that one thing. Blindside, 300 million.

Oh, yeah. But yeah, she was established at that point. But she had speed, and while you were sleeping, then she's off. You've heard my theory on her, right? No, let me hear it. It's a Nolanolan ryan type career at this point star rights no come on we don't know that about no we don't we don't but like what's he doing at 45 throwing 240 strikeouts at age 46 i i totally bought it but uh no she had

three runs she had 90s then she had this whole other run from like 00 to 07 and rom-coms, all that stuff. And then the third blindside run. Amazing. Yeah. Three different eras. She's going to have a fourth is the question. Hey, talking about, I meant to ask you this when you talk about the Philly culture, how bad it was. You know Goober a little bit because he owns.

Yeah. Peter Goober we're talking about. Peter Goober is your partner for your company, but he also bought in on the Warriors, which is one of the great investments of all time. You think? The Warriors have done a really good job of building a behind-the-scenes front office, consultants.

They picked a great coach. They use advanced metrics. They're one of the model franchises now. So you went to the game yesterday. What's it like to just go in that vortex does it just like this well-run well-oiled machine yeah i wouldn't use the word vortex because that sort of suggests something kind of negative and weird and it's so well what word uh umbrella i don't know uh it's going into that whole world it's um right about the behind the scenes and the hierarchy. So you start with Rick Welch, who was a very successful executive.

Super well respected. And a good guy. And he sort of quit and said, I'm going back to the Bay Area and living my life and taking a hiatus. And like, bam, he gets the job and he's now the president of the number one sports team in the history of the world. We were laughing about it last night, actually. And we were talking about the hyperbolic sports writers of, you know, anointing this team and like, you know, is it a good thing or is it just in the way to be going for this record?

It's sort of like the NCAA teams who are like 29-0 going to the tournament and the coach wants them to lose or having a Patriots team. Is it better to be 15-1 than 16-0? Because you're playing not to lose as opposed to figuringots team is it better to to be 15 and 1 than 16 and 0 because you're playing not to lose as opposed to figuring it out and getting better that's the whole Draymond thing like when they first lost to Milwaukee in December and after the game you're expecting him to say well it was great while it lasted he's like so great like now we can stop worrying about this streak and playing not to lose but there's so many things we can do to get better and we have to figure out what our roles are

and how to integrate them. So it starts with- Sounds like you've become a Warriors fan. I'm just reading between the lines. Look, man, you know me a little bit. I'm like you, Bill. I root for the laundry. You know where my heart is.

I love Peter and it's fun going to Oracle. Wait a second. What you just said, though. So I think about that a lot with the Pats because it could go two ways, right? Like the street clearly wore them down. oracle it's it's wait a second what you just said though so i think about that a lot with the pats because it could go two ways right like the street clearly wore them down they were playing up from like the 10th game on they were playing a playoff game every week from that point on on the flip side um it wasn't as good of a team by the time we got to the end of the season because we lost

sammy morris and they didn't have good running backs anyway and it's you look at the running backs it was like lawrence maroney and kevin fox and it's just we couldn't run the ball yeah and the team became a little more one-dimensional and i think that was a big part of it and also you know the giants they just whooped our offensive line's ass you know we had holes so i'm trying to think like with this State thing, even if they wear down a little bit, they don't have that. If Iggy's gone for the year, to me that would be the Sammy Morris thing,

but he's not. He's coming back. They'll have their full team. Well, so you and I, when we went to the, oh, it was the Clips Cavs game, we were talking about how the Warriors seemed like, eh, they've had some near misses. Well, so here they are.

They've won nine out of the last ten, and the tenth was like a near miss in San Antonio that hasn't lost there all season. And now they're sitting— Yeah, they didn't play well, and they almost won. Right. So now they're sitting at 64-7. They have eight of the last 11 at home. I would totally go for it. They could go nine and two.

They could lose both to San Antonio and win the other nine and still get it. I guess if you're saying, look, we won the championship, if we have the best record and win a second in a row, we're the best team ever. I think you have to go for it. And I never begrudge the Pats for going for it. Because if they had pulled it off, then you're in the conversation. Anytime anyone mentions a great team, you're mentioned. Right.

And that's what, for the NBA, just nba only you're talking 86 souths you're talking 96 bulls you're talking the 72 lakers 33 game win streak and 67 lakers 68 and 13 i'm not hearing the 67 sixers that's i mean 67 sixers that's what i meant yeah the 68. Yeah. And those are the first four things people are going to bring up. And now they get to be in that conversation. So back to that management. So Rick is unmatched. Bob Myers is a really unsung general manager. Really smart.

Smart dude. Really puts it together. I'm going to have him on the pod at some point. I don't know why it hasn't happened. He's great. Everybody likes him. He's smart. I think he's smart, dude. Really puts it together. I'm going to have him on the pod at some point. I don't know why it hasn't happened. He's great. Everybody likes him. He's smart. He's sensitive.

He kind of says stuff, too. He's not afraid to actually have an opinion on it in an interview. No other marketing guys. Chip, Kenny, Brian. They're just great guys. They have this arena. You know about it. In three years, they're going to be playing in San Francisco.

They're going to have, it's going to be a in san francisco they're going to have it's going to be a smaller capacity but it's going to have like amazing it's going to be state-of-the-art and they'll have 200 dates a year there and on they'll control it it's just more revenue they've already sold naming rights for 400 million so they've paid for half of it already it's and and and peter's partner joe lake and the two of them play off each other really well Peter Joe Lacob former uh Celtics minority owner wow Joe Lacob also one of the few if not maybe the only owner that I know of in the NBA who brought in his son in like a prominent role and he's actually competent yeah usually when that happens it's a red flag it's like my son's going to be the director of player development. It's like the kid took eight years to graduate college.

How's that working out in L.A.? L.A., not great. Jimmy Buff's seven years for Long Beach State. Oh, man. But, yeah, Kirk Lakob's actually competent. He's in that whole advanced metric thing. Even the D-League is like the sort of model D-League team. They've done an awesome job.

It's all going on there. That's what's really fascinating about the NBA right now is all these teams that just know what they're doing. So then when you have a team like Philly where it's just a mess, it really stands out. Like the Celtics are a well-oiled machine now. They have Danny. They have Mike Zarin who would be a GM on most teams. And he's like the assistant. Great young coach. And they have Stevens who's a great coach. They have GM on most teams, and he's like the assistant. Great young coach.

And they have Stevens, who's a great coach. They have owners who are smart enough to stay out of the way. Yeah. And they just kind of know what they're doing. And everyone is trying to follow that model or the Golden State model. And then you see somebody like Sacramento, and you're like, wow, this isn't hard, guys. Just follow what the smart teams are doing.

Yeah, but that follow the model thing is a little bit of a slippery slope, too. It's like, so Kansas City wins the World Series, and now the Yankees have this ridiculous Miller-Batances-Chapman thing, and you guys tried to do the same thing. You went out and got Kimbrell. But that's a talent model, though. I'm talking organizational. Okay, but there's that, too.

It's now there's a little bit of what's being called tanking, although I don't think it's really tanking. It's like, look what the Braves did. Right. You know, it's stockpiling. And even dodgers with their 240 million dollar payroll like why do they let rinky go and why are they like not trading for somebody when they have no pitchers and why are they maybe that payroll is too high too high maybe the rich guys were like all right guys can we try to do this with like $210 million? How's Clayton Kershaw feeling about that? I don't know.

Can you name his number two and number three pitchers? Can I name the great playoff game I've watched him pitch? It'll happen. It took Barry a while. It'll happen. It's going to happen for Clayton. A laugh from Joe Fuentes. Did that hit close to home?

See the Dodger fan? They do have the anointed guy at shortstop, though, right? Everybody's going to be watching their shortstop. Sort of unanimous rookie of the year pick, right? Yeah. Be fun to watch. Puig, this is the year Puig ends up getting deported. This is just headed that way.

It's always been headed that way. He's behaving, Bill. He's behaving. He's in a new league. He's going to be on a one-way plane. I think Dave Roberts might be the guy to get through to Puig. Come on, give him that way. He's behaving, Bill. He's behaving. He's in a new league. He's going to be on a one-way plane. I think Dave Roberts might be the guy to get through to Puig. Come on, give him a shot. I love Puig. He's a keeper

in my fantasy league. I'm all in on Puig. I was totally in on the Bryce Harper. And how about Trace Thompson? Aren't you psyched about that? Michael's other kid's going to play in the big leagues. Trace Thompson. Oh, Clay Thompson's brother? Yeah. He's going to make the team now. He's making the team? Yeah, yeah, because Ethier's hurt.

He might start. He may platoon. You're one of the only people in my life that still gets genuinely excited for opening day. Okay, so here's the thing. My dad, a couple people in the ringer office. Yeah. A couple people in my League of Dorks league, and that's about it. It's great.

What's better than opening day? There's no opening day in any other sport but baseball right no though they did kind of a tiny bit ruin it well it's not yeah i don't like sunday i hate the sunday so much it should start on monday looky and i when they open citizens bank park yeah your friend and mine. Said, hey, you guys want to ride to Philly? So Lukey and I are on the Gulf Stream to the opener at Citizens Bank Park. Lukey's like, this is cool, Dad. I like this. What's this world?

I remember we brought a tennis ball. We were having a catch on the plane. We were annoying all the naming rights Citizens Bank guys. But I'll never forget it. It's like that was his first. And you sort of do that imprinting when your kid is at the right age. We will not be in Philly for opening day, but we will be in spring training next week in Clearwater as the Phillies are zero games out of first place in case you didn't know.

And by the way, having – give me a minute here. We're 14-7 in spring. How much does that mean? Come on. Are you serious? Okay, but wait, wait, wait. We're not leaving the Phillies yet. That's terrible.'s do a little over under let's do an over under number have you let me look it up have you done you don't have to i can tell you no no i'm gonna

have you done your baseball over unders yet no i i do have a team i like it's very varied the numbers are like like the first numbers the Cubs were at 94, and then last week they were down to 90, or just maybe it's a different book. I did notice that the Cubs had better World Series odds than teams that will actually potentially win the World Series, which is hilarious. Yeah, because it's the Cubs. It's the Cub nation thing, and they are catering to people drinking that Cub Kool-Aid.

Yeah, that used to be the – what do I look at, Futures? Oh, here we go. That used to be the Red Sox. That's how the Vegas would get the Red Sox fans. They would go to Vegas. They'd put the odds intentionally low because when people went to Vegas, they'd be like, I'm going to buy my grandma the Red Sox ticket. And they'd spend 50 bucks.

So they would put the, instead of being like 25 to it, they'd be 10 to one because they knew all the Red Sox ticket. And it's been 50 bucks. So they would put the, instead of being like 25 to it, they'd be 10 to one because they knew all the Red Sox sucker fans. And then one year we actually did it. How about the guy who bet five quid on Leicester City? How great is that story? So you're over under? I can tell you what I bet. Is that real?

What does it say? I can tell you what I actually bet. 65 and a half? Yeah. That's your over under? So Vegas is saying you might lose 100 games like it's in you what 65 and a half yeah that's your over under so here's vegas is saying you might lose 100 games like it's in play 65 and 97 last year we were 63 and 99 what's your payroll uh it's ryan howard and nobody else he's the only guy getting well

chooch is getting there's two guys left from the oa team chooch and ryan and the other guys are all and helixson and morton i can't believe it didn't't work out to overpay a slugger who can't move and who can only play a corner position and is heading into his 30s. All right, so here's a question for you. Which my team did twice, Ramirez and Sandoval. Unbelievable. Now once a first baseman, gold glove first baseman, Hanley Ramirez. He did so well in left field.

Why not? Somebody asked me yesterday what we're going to do. I was like, it's not going to matter. Hanley will get hurt in three weeks and it'll all all the people will be in the right place after that. So then Chris Young, where does he go? I don't know. That's great. Okay, so I said to a guy, a baseball guy, I said I've been betting

the over, which means they've got to go 66-96. Here's the question. If I said 66 and 96, they got to play blank games under, what would you say? How many games under is that? It's 31. Well, it's 30. 30 games under. Yeah. So I said that and he said, no, it's 15 games under. I'm like, what? Well, 66 is

15 under 81. Oh, that's true. If you win 15 more than 66, then you're actually- But you don't really say that, right? I've been pulling this all week. So you're going with 30 under. Oh, no question. That's like, is hot dog a sandwich? Thank you. Hot dog's not a sandwich. It's a hot dog. Right. But do you use ketchup or mustard? Here's my over under that's going to win. And it wins every year. Tampa over. Wow. What's the number? Tampa over is 82. I just do it blind.

I don't even know who's on the team. Tampa's always over. That's great. The Red Sox are 87. I like that one, too. I saw 85. Don't bet 87. I can give you 85.

I think 85 is a good bet. You know who's the key is Borsello, right? Because you figure Buck Holtz is okay. You need at least three guys right and you have a good bullpen have you ever thought about building a website that could put uh your baseball runner picks on there maybe some of your things you've collected over the years and some photos of you on the set with our list because i have an idea um i know building a website can be daunting how'd you guys what you guys think about that segue one to ten two and that was a nine and

a half creating something that looks good and works well as a time-consuming affair whether it's a business site portfolio restaurant or even just uh a guy who's met a lot of great people over his life and wants to put photos on the website so people can look at them in this day and age you probably need your own website that's why our buddies at squarespace build gorgeous websites for normal people who don't know how to build websites like my friend Louis K

who launched Covert Creative on Squarespace. How do you think he feels about being called normal? I mean normal? Yeah.

Well he's definitely not normal. Crazy Kings fan. Like I really feel like if Ryan Perry was crossing the street and Louis would look left look right

if nobody was looking he'd run him over. He really would. He'd run him over. Ryan Perry was crossing the street, and Lewis would look left, look right. If nobody was looking, he'd run them over. He really would. He'd run them over. You know who else uses Squarespace? The star of the Smash Hit Golf podcast, Shaq House, Joe House. He uses Squarespace. Does he have to pay Shaq royalties for that title, Shaq House?

Shaq House? Yeah. Who owns Shaq House? Nobody. We own Shaq House now. It's like Spike. Remember Spike sued when Spike TV came out, and he sued because they took his name? I forgot about that. Shack House? Yeah. Who owns Shack House? Nobody. We own Shack House now. It's like Spike. Remember Spike sued when Spike TV came out and he sued because they took his name?

I forgot about that. Who won that suit? He lost. Okay. Squarespace makes it easy regardless of skill level. No coding needed. Easy to use tool. State of the art technology.

24-7 online support and a beautiful website for only $8 a month. You even get a free domain if you buy Squarespace for the year so why wait start your trial no credit card go to squarespace.com use the offer code bs for 10 off your first purchase i'm going right now on my we had to we had to do that on a blackberry you think no you're the only other person i know the black bear that's why there's an email about the white shadow can you name the white shadow starting five by position? This is your chance. I just got this email.

Well, it depends. He would go small and he would go big. Never mind. Coolidge Center. Hayward and Thorpe were always the guards. Salami. And then sometimes he'd go with Reese. But there are other times he'd just bring in Abner Goldstein,

just start the game with him bring Reese off the bench yeah there you have it two things we have to talk about one is we've talked about this at games over and over again we had Clippers and Trump left

and then we're done okay because the real reason you came on was Trump well it is kind of my civic duty we're saving it for the end alright so let's do Clips

so Clips we've noticed at the games and we haven't gone to as many games this year clips. So clips. We've noticed that the games, and we haven't gone to as many games this year because it really makes me sad to go to the games because the team is just so kind of, yeah, I don't really enjoy going this year. The team has a weird energy to it and the people in the stands are just kind of on edge

and I don't know. If I go, I go to see the other team. I can be one back. It's just the way I feel. But we've noticed there's kind of a sky and I don't know if I go I go to see the other team I I can be one back it's just the way I feel but we've noticed there's kind of a sky is falling thing now that's entered these games that I don't remember in the old days it was like we stink oh it'll be it was like they were little league parents now it's it's this expectation of failure that surprises me partly this is colored by the fact that you missed the OKC comeback game, which was pretty amazing.

That they won? Yeah. So you think that shed it? No, I'm saying your impression is colored by having not been there for that. Not been there for one of those games. That's fair. Which is extraordinary. I mean, yes, it was an aberration, but it did happen. And it wasn't that long ago. I just think there's a little bit of like, OK, we overachieved

in Blake's absence. And Chris, for all you want to say about him is like you know 20 and 10 season playing why did you make it seem like i don't like chris what was that i don't know for all you say about him it's like what i don't know he's one of the best point guards ever yeah he's amazing it is in his 30 year year 30 year old year he's like up restaurant would you want to play with him? Depends who I was. Depends if I was a J.J. Redick, I wouldn't mind.

Yeah. How's that for a diplomatic answer? Good, that was very diplomatic. Okay, so I think they like killed themselves and overachieved in Blake's absence. And now it's like, whew, we need him. We need him back. And we're waiting. And as you said, he may not be back.

And it's just, there's just not – it was clear in the Cavs game. It's been clear a lot that when it comes to the good teams, they don't have enough firepower. The league has moved away from the model of DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin out there in crunch time. You know what's interesting, though? I don't know if you can play both of them. Like DeAndre has – see, this is what I saw last night in Oracle.

They're so like – they're playing – they're trying to play beyond their means, but they're playing away from their comfort zone to make up for Blake's absence. So I saw DeAndre, who's basically hanging around the low post, looking for the lob, right, getting putbacks. He's driving the lane. He's making shots for himself last night out of necessity. Had a great night. Is that why they lost? No.

That's not why he's lost. He is 19 and 20. Why they lost was Chris shot four for 16 and JJ was cold too. He usually goes at Steph. Last night, Steph definitely had the upper hand in that one. Steph was, you know what? It wasn't a stellar Steph game. He had like four threes, but it wasn't.

I wonder, he was at such a high level, and he's got so much stuff coming at him, and so much pressure game to game, and just the burden of every time I'm on the road, people are coming to watch me warm up for three hours, and then his agent's like, hey, this guy called, this guy called, this guy called. At some point, that's got to wear you down a little bit. His life is just too different than it was five months ago.

Doesn't it seem like so far it's early, but he seems impervious to it so far. I thought he looked worn out in that San Antonio game in a way I didn't like, but they did play the night before, and they did play six games in that night, so I just have my eye on it. Everybody, you know, back to that inner circle, everybody loves him. Everybody is respectful, and he's just like he is everything right now. It's kind of cool.

I don't know about my wife traveling on all my road trips with me. I don't know. I don't know if I'm okay with that. What do you mean? Like if my wife was here right now just nodding at us, it would be weird. Eventually you'd be like, why was your wife here? I'm just like, she's just here. Is Riley there too?

It's like the Adam LaRoche thing. It's like my son's here. It's like tell your son to stay home. It's a clubhouse son's here. It's like, tell your son to stay home. It's a clubhouse. It's a work environment. What side of that are you on? I'm on that side. Harsh, man.

I love my kids. I don't want to go to work. Yeah, every day's a lot. Every day's a lot. Every day's a lot. I agree. Here's my take. I have a hot take on this.

Everyone at The Ringer has already heard this. What's that much fun about hanging around with a 14-year-old boy 24-7? Is there a moodier, less social person than a 14-year-old boy? You've been through it. You had a 14-year-old boy. I did a couple years ago. Not a barrel of laughs. Let's get this kid his own locker so he can stare at his cell phone and grunt one-word answers to people.

Let's get him in. own locker so he can stare at his cell phone and grunt one-word answers to people. Let's get him in. I got to have him around. Oh, man. I hope the Simmons household is not listening. I don't know, man. Your son might take offense. I had great times with my son. My son would be like attacking players with baseball bats and fake wrestling moves and jumping off lockers and clotheslining people.

That's funny. I don't know. It's just for $13 million bucks he could have bought that kid like the greatest bedroom he's ever had right what do you think the settlement is loaded it with porn

he would have been happy he wouldn't have left what's the settlement what does Jerry give him to go away quietly and not complain because he hasn't come out and said anything yet

LaRoche LaRoche they give him half they give him 50% of the 13 no Reinsdorf yeah Reinsdorf will be like

you'll get nothing. And be happy. Here's my offer. Zero. Go in, smile. That guy wouldn't pay Michael Jordan. Right. And so how different would it have been if instead of hitting 207, he hit 280 with 30

dingers? I'd like to go back to how ridiculous it was that his kid had a locker next to him. And people are arguing about this. Oh, he's a great dad. He's apparently a great kid. He's working a great kid. He's working. That was ludicrous.

I love my kids more than anything. My whole life revolves around my kids. I wouldn't want to bring my son to work every day. I don't get it. He's homeschooled. Where's the mom in all this? You've got to wonder, right? And are there other siblings that are home?

I'm like, why aren't we going? I don't know. It's crazy. I can't believe we're talking about this. I swore I would never talk about this on a podcast. Never talk about this. So we're pessimistic about the Clippers. Well, look, they got Memphis, who I know they lost to last week because Zeebo decided to just like take the game into his own hands.

Which is always funny because we were there for that terrible Zeebo season. It didn't even happen. It's like, did that really? Was he really a Clipper? But you know what, though? That's still my favorite Clipper season. Why? It was just so dysfunctional.

It was great. We had so much fun at those games. Okay, so it's good. We could hear the players talk because they weren't playing that much music because it was so sad. And Zeebo and Mike Dunleavy and Tim Thomas. It was a train wreck. I think that was the inspiration for your Yahoo basketball show. Maybe so.

Yes. Sin City Saints. That was basically Sin the inspiration for your Yahoo basketball show. Maybe so. Yes. Sin City Saints. That was basically Sin City Saints. It was kind of. All right. So they have Gasol's out. Conley, Willer won't be back. Oh, I think they beat Memphis.

Yeah. Conley will be. Yeah, that's going to happen. All right. Even without Blake. That would be one of the all-time collapses. They just come out. All right.

So then we got the Warriors. Yeah. It's fine. You didn't answer my question over under home playoff games. Oh. Memphis goes five, so there's three. And I think they have two at home, and that's it. They either get swept or win in five.

Five and a half. On the other hand, though, they might just, like, try to really, you know, close on Steph Curry once. I think it'll be a good series. I think they'll play him well. It's hard to say they'll beat him, but they'll be respectable. Here's my thing about the NBA. Yeah.

We love Adam. Yeah. I still like Adam. I haven't flipped on him yet. Don't. Well, I'm worried about this lockout. It's not going to happen. Split the money up.

No, no, no. I don't want to miss one game. This would be be ludicrous it's the best time for the league they're so far ahead of it they're already having talks it's gonna happen so you could argue adams on his way to like best commissioner ever he's off to an amazing start great start okay so and like you can't even really think of like what, what are the issues. If the hack-a-shack thing is your biggest problem, obviously things are great. But my concern would be that if you are heading into the playoffs and sitting here, you can honestly say there are three, maybe four teams that have a shot to win. Whereas in hockey, eight seeds win the Stanley Cups. And in football and baseball, wild cards win World Series and Super Bowl.

So I don't know what you do about that. And now with the new cap money— The league has almost always been like that. There's always been three or four teams. No. I think what's going to stink this year is I think round one in the West is going to be terrible unless Damian Lillard can get hot for a couple games. Right.

You might have four sweeps or three sweeps in a five-game series. Like Houston, I think, will fold like a freaking couch in round one. Well, if they even get in. That team's so ready to quit on each other in like the worst possible way. Don't be bitter because of your overbat on the Rockets. Oh, I've already. I've mourned that bad. I went to the funeral.

It's all good. That team is so ready to quit. They might as well just not make the playoffs and let Utah in. It'd be better off. Yeah. But Portland versus Oklahoma City, I think, is a matchup, unless they can pass Memphis. But that one, Oklahoma City will blow a game.

That one could be good. Yeah. And the East is crazy because you have these four teams who are basically tied for the three spots. There's some East scenarios that are fun. Like Detroit-Cleveland would be fun, I think. I think Boston-Miami would be awesome. It would be amazing.

Boston-Atlanta would be cool. Charlotte-Miami would be kind of weirdly fun. How crazy. How does Chicago, fighting for a playoff spot, lose at home to the Knicks? What's going on there? Talk about dysfunction. Where are all the media cronies that just were crushing Thibodeau for years and years?

Right. And they finally get rid of him. And the team's way worse. And they have more talent than two, three, four of the actual playoff teams. And they've completely self-combusted. And they probably should have traded Jimmy Butler before the deadline or Rose. You can't go with those Rose. Could Phil hire, you can't go with those two.

Could Phil ever hire Tibbs? He's got to do something. No, he won't do that. I think it's going to be Luke Walton, either Lakers or Knicks. I don't know. Luke Walton,

31 years old. All right, Trump. We're there. That's it. We're there. Wait, before we leave the Clippers,

how about the dance squad? Oh, you're doing the show. Come on, man. I want you to watch it. Is it on yet? Yeah, it's on. Two episodes in.

You might give it a... It's two episodes in? Why didn't you email me this stuff? I told you we were at the game. Who's your audience for the Dance Squad show? Me. You are it. I think you might give it a better review than you gave the Kareem doc.

That's not true. That was a little dig. That was a dig. Yeah. But sort of true. That was a little dig. That was a dig. Yeah. But sort of deserved. It was a little deserved. Yeah. Well, you actually apologized to me.

So that's on the record. I'll take that. My standards are so high for unmade documentaries. Yeah. But listen. Okay. We've talked about it. That's fine.

So watch it. Tell me what you think. It's fun. It's really fun. The girls, they're attractive. They're athletic. They're fun. We what's the show the show you could have had if the nba didn't oversee the footage talk about that was like a minus a plus a plus a plus nah whatever it depends hey yeah i think

it's pretty close anyway we're above the curve is this this a PG or a PG-13 version of that show? This is, well, it's TV. It's basic cable, so you can't really curse. So I guess it's PG. But let's get into it a little bit. There's a little controversy. The trip to China led to some interesting developments. It's coming up soon, episode four.

I think they're really... That seems very cryptic well i'm gonna be cryptic because you need to watch it yeah it's good does anyone get pregnant not yet stay tuned all right so so far back how much what time how much time are we at we're at 59 minutes all right we have 10 minutes to go through this. So we should go back because everybody's done the whole what an idiot he is and how ridiculous and how embarrassing. But nobody really knows the you, me, and Connor story, the origin story.

Should we do that? Yeah, let's do that. All right, so I'll do my version and you can chime in if I'm making stuff up. I'm just going to nod. Okay, so it's like, oh, wait, right? Birthing, 30 for 30. You guys sort of invite me on the team. You'll be like our Hollywood guy.

You'll be like a consulting producer. Get some relationships. But you should do one, you say. And I say, great, I'd love to do one. And let me think about it. You go, no, no, no, you should do the USFL. I spent three years as the Steve Sable of the USFL, I guess, which just means for- But you were like 15 years old.

Yeah, of course. It was like your first job. It wasn of course. It was like your first job. It wasn't quite. It was my first like as an entrepreneur. First big job. So I started a company after MLB and said, I know how to do this. And somehow got the rights in my 20s to be the official production company of the USFL. So that man in 84, when he bought the team from Walter Duncan, that like, there's this

guy in Trump Tower that's like making big news. And so we spent a lot of time with each other. So you guys- Doesn't he, we don't even really know what he's about at that point. This is pre-Spy Magazine. He's starting to build stuff, but he's not- Pre-short-fingered Bulgarian.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he had built Trump Tower. Yeah. He had bought the Grand Hyatt on 42nd Street and made that the Trump Hyatt, whatever. It's funny, though, since you mentioned that. We went back and talked to some real estate guys. My buddy, the rabbi, who was my partner, had a real estate mogul brother. And so he said, we know what he is now.

He's not in the real estate business really at all, just slapping his name on things. But back then, wasn't he good at it? Wasn't he like one of the top real estate guys in the city? He said, no, never. It was all like he took his father's money and he bullied his way into getting like some abatements and some ordinances. And so he got the right kind of tax advantages. Caught a couple of breaks.

Yeah. And he built these big towers that were splashy. And that was the lead-in to buying the Generals. He's like a GM who just had two of the top three picks in the draft two years in a row and took guys from him. He inherits Herschel. He immediately gets Brian Seip. Later he went and got Doug Flutie, threw Brian Seip away after a year.

That was a good move. He had the highest-paid quarterback in the league, and then just got another quarterback. It's like Gary Barbaro, you're offering me how much money? And Lawrence Taylor got like $900,000 to never play a down in the USFL. Is that true? That is true. He spent that right away.

Yeah, you think on what? Never mind. Okay, so it's 08, and you guys say, no, no, do the USFL. And I said, no, man, I spent three years doing that. I was, you know, running the production company. I've sort of done that. Let me think of something else. And you guys said, no, we really want these shows to be sort of first person

and we want the filmmakers to be involved. Distinct. Yes. So I said, I remember, like right on the spot, well, the only interesting thing for me would be if I can call it Who Killed the USFL and Go After Trump. You're like, done. Do it.

So we announced it and we're doing it and as I recall, the first one was Pete Berg doing Gretzky and the second one was Barry Levinson doing the crazy band and we were up third. We were actually going to be later, but I think Ron wasn't ready with Jordan.

Rides the bus. Right. We had to move it up. So he moved me up. So I'm off doing this thing. And you like, I think Maisels was next.zel's was next oh wow the homes i think he was like right after yeah it was october and i remember getting a call from you guys in the summer like okay you're on deck anyway so you said yeah i said okay i'm in and i started writing and calling the office and there was i forget her name but there was the gatekeeper and like oh, oh yeah, Mr. Trumbull, get back to you. I wrote him these letters.

And I'm filming all this because this is going to be like, you guys were very encouraging. You should be in it. You're integral to the story. You were there with him. This is shared history. So I'm filming all this and nothing,

like stonewalled. So it goes through about three or four months and I'm calling you guys and saying, I may not get them. I mean, I may have to do like a Michael and Moore, Michael Moore Roger and me and like go out to a golf course with a camera and just like catch them on the turn of the ninth hole. Doesn't matter. Just keep doing the show. And we're getting everybody.

And, you know, amazing guys, right? Steve Young. It's Jim Kelly. It's Herschel. It's Calvin Bryant. It's on and on and on. It's one of only two 30 forerschel. It's Calvin Bryant. It's on and on and on. It's one of only two 30s I was in. Yes.

Because I tried to stay out of them. But that one, you're like, I need you. I got a Breakers jersey. You were authentic. I crammed into some D-backs jersey from the Breakers. It was like 5'9". They had to shoot me from the nipples up because it was like a half shirt. Can Bill Simmons eight years later get into that Breakers jersey?

Now I could, yeah. You look good. I'm like 15 pounds lighter now. You're in shape. Yeah. I still have it somewhere. That's a legacy for your boys. Dick Corey crying at Nickerson Field and the Immaculate Reception. There's no greater sports highlights ever. So we're about three, four months into this thing and we've done 30 interviews and it's going great and there's no Trump. And finally a guy named John Gonzalez, Gonzali, writes a story in the Sports Business Journal. And he interviews me and I'm telling about all the cool ones. And there's going to be this one on the USFL. It's called Who Killed the USFL? Oh, really? What's

that about? And I sort of dropped the name. And he writes that, you know, unofficially or off the record, it sounds like this film may be identifying Donald Trump as the cause of the demise. Magically, coincidentally, who knows how the phone rings like the next day, Mr. Trump will see you now. That's awesome. So the rabbi and I go to the tower with three cameras blazing. And he says to me, we're rolling from the time we set up the cameras till the time he leaves, just like you never know what kind of insanity. And I'm sort of assuming, this guy's a pretty good spin doctor, right? I'm assuming there's going to be like, hey, Mike, he's going to have done some research.

He's going to butter me up a little bit, make me, because by this point I'm like, you know, everybody knows what this guy really is. And he really did lead the league to a, I would say, premature demise. It was him and Bassett getting cancer. Those are the two things. Yeah, well, Bassett was the guy who could go head-to-head with them. And I found this amazing letter, Bill, recently,

which I think somebody put online, where Bassett wrote him, Donald, a letter after one of the league meetings where he said, you're younger, stronger, and bigger than me, so I'm no hesitation whatsoever punching you right in the nose the next time you try to bully me or one of my colleagues. He was just... Anyway, so instead of him coming in, his like girl, his lead girl comes in. Now, I've done a lot of interviews. I don't know how many, thousands probably over my many years doing this. This is the first time this ever happened. She comes in and she sees where the cameras are

and she says, you're going to need to move not would you please or would you consider you're going to need to move those cameras to the other side. Like, well, I don't really care, but why? We just like it that way. It was a little bit of annoyance because we'd set up the lighting. And then I realized, you know what it was?

It was like the cameras were set up on the origin side of the hair instead of the destination side. And the origin side is really gnarly. It's gamey. Oh, it's just horrible. And on the other side, you just see the flop down and it looks like almost normal. So we had to go through that whole exercise. He walks in and he's just like, you know, the chin's up in the air and like nothing like no no handshake barely a handshake with no eye contact it's the kind of

thing where if like your kid did it you'd smack him and say eye contact didn't do it like adam la roche's kid probably that's how he acts now it's hard for life but like we spent a lot i'm not proud of this but like we spent a lot of time together because he was looking for whatever exposure. We had the weekly show. He was a good copy. That's what you print guys used to call it, although you're not really a print guy. Yeah, I was a digital guy. But he was fun, and he was silly.

Ivana would be there, and she would call me her director. It was heady. You'd go up to the box and watch the general games. They were good. I have to say, they did go from six wins to five right no 14 wins the first year and then 11 the second but trump wins man no no wait okay though the thing i always said because i've i've done a lot of these interviews again my civic duty um to let the country know um he he always won the early rounds and never won the big one never won a single

playoff game which is kind of like what's going to happen in cleveland yeah waiting for cleveland so there was no schmooze whatsoever nothing like no hey good to see you have you been whatever sits down starts yelling camera this that the other my next thing was i had to like get a aerial view of the hair so i like pretended to be checking out the lighting. And I did like a 360 around him and looked down on this thing, this orange mop. It's like looking down at a Porto John. You don't want to look down. It's like, oh, no.

I can't see it. I do have to say it is, I think it's real. It's just insane. It's just like how much time a day does he spend making it look that way? It just goes around and around and around like a bowl of linguine. Yeah, but I wouldn't eat that linguine. Right, I wouldn't either. It's like bad sauce.

Yeah. So we do the thing and he's great because he doesn't remember it and he's completely at odds with everybody who loved this league and thought we had a shot. He wants to move it to the fall to go head-to-head with the nfl which is a suicide bomber mission right so his whole thing was he never wanted to be in the league he came into a spring football league and said if god wanted football to be played in the spring he never would have invented baseball well so why are you crashing our party like why are you here he's here because here because nobody wanted him

in the NFL. Your owner might have. Bob Kraft. Well, you have to remember, though, this is eight years earlier. The four ABA owners were able to get

into the NBA from the ABA. So that was probably his thinking. So let's build up this league well enough to the point where they need to take a few of us

to get us out of their hair. Yeah. And they were annoyed by the USFL. It was competitive. Yeah. But that wasn't working. USFL. It was competitive. Yeah. But that wasn't working. So then he says, we're going to go to the fall, where there are only three networks

then. This is pre-Fox. So they're on all three networks. So they're claiming monopolistic practices, anti-Sherman Act, antitrust. And they sue for like a billion and a half dollars. Well, the fallacy, the way he engineered this lawsuit, first of all, he puts it in New York instead of like Memphis or Birmingham. He hires Harvey Meyerson as this like fancy heavy hitter Harvey, they called him. And he's like, somehow the NFL is the downtrodden

underdog. And everybody's sympathetic toward the NFL's case. So they, you know how this ends up, they win, but the judge rules that there were no really appreciable damages. So they, you know how this ends up. They win, but the judge rules that there were no really appreciable damages. So he awards them $1, which because it's antitrust, it's treble damages. So it's $3. That's the settlement.

That's the end of the league. It's the $1 league. He's basically like, yeah, there's antitrust, but you guys were so reckless and so stupid with everything you did that I can't give you money for it. And it was confusing. You know, as a USFL guy, the jurors didn't really know that.

And some of the jurors came out later and said, whoa, whoa, whoa, if we'd have known that, you know, we would have done something different, you know, recommended. Anyway, it's over. So now I get to, I've got everything. Now you get to grill him, Mike Wallace style. So I get everything I want and we're getting to the end and I really have it all. And I'm like looking, making sure the cameras are going and I pull out the check which with interest because it

wasn't delivered till 90 is now $3.76. So you have the actual check. How did you get the check? Well Steve Earhart who became like the custodian of the league he was like deputy commissioner and then he was the Memphis owner keeps it literally in a bank vault in Memphis and we went

you borrowed it. I borrowed it. Oh that's right I remember this. And we went. It's in the film. You borrowed it. I borrowed it. Oh, that's right. I remember this part. So I have the check in my folder. Obviously, I saw the USFL doc. I think so. I just don't remember that part.

Yeah. It's still on, by the way, all the time. Yeah. Anyway, so I hand him the check. Have you ever seen this, Donald? It's like, it was exactly what I wanted. It was one of the great moments in the history of the series. So he gets up.

He got angry. Really angry. I've had about enough of this. I'm out of here. You know I made the league. I did the best I could. It would have ended earlier. And I go, well, I don't know, Donald. I don't know if I really agree.

I guess we'll let's see what everybody else says, and I'll try to be. And he pats me on the shoulders and says, small potatoes. It was small potatoes. So again, the rabbi's still rolling. So Trump walks out. I turn to the camera. Small potatoes, guys. That's all we were.

That becomes the name of the film, Small Potatoes. It's always good when the title's actually said in the film in an organic way. It's not like I could have ever planned that. But there it was on a platter. So now we're packing up and laughing and high-fiving, and this is so perfect. I can't wait to call you guys and say this is going to be great. And the lady comes back in the office, obviously having told her boss, like, you blew that, man. That was not good.

You came off imperious, whatever else you might have said. Donna would like to see you in his office. So we're, like, down the hall from the inner sanctum. So the camera guys start trailing me. No, no, no, no cameras. So I walk into the office. He's got this giant stack of checks he's signing. Could barely, barely make the effort to look up from the checks to make eye contact for half a second. And she'd obviously prepped him the way I thought she would have earlier. He comes around the desk, shakes my hand, a little bit of eye contact. I'm so, Mike, I'm so glad to see you. I'm so proud of you. I'm so happy for all your success. How's your family? Oh my God. Could not be any less

authentic. He has no idea about my career, about my family, about anything. He's like, Mark, it's great to see you. So I go, everything's great, Don. I really appreciate you doing this. This is really going to be great. I hope you'll come to the premiere of the film. He goes, well, that'll be up to you, won't it? Which led to me writing him a letter. I said, I'll invite you and we'll send you a limo and I hope you'll come and everybody will be there.

So I sent him a letter as promised, inviting him, which leads to my number one prized possession that'll go on that. What's that website for normal people? Squarespace.com. There you go. Good callback. Nice. Sponsors love to be called back. So I write him this letter, and in Donald Trump hate mail fashion, this is how he does it.

He sends the letter back. He doesn't write his own letter with this thick black magic marker, and he scribbles on it. Dear Mike, an extremely dishonest film. Best wishes, Donald. P.S. You are a loser. That was pre-Twitter, before he realized he could just call everyone a loser on Twitter. Exactly.

It felt so special. Oh, I felt so great. Or it was like at the start of Twitter. No, it was way before. All I got was like, it was page six in TMZ is what we got from it. That was about the extent of social media. So I'm calling it. You have to send me the photo of that.

So when I do the Facebook post for this podcast, I can post that letter. Crazily out of nowhere last week. You are a loser. You're a loser. Jed Apatow just like retweeted it last week for no reason. Like it's out there. So yeah, put it, put it up. I'm very proud of it.

My mom's proud of it. We're all, we have to go. It's fine. Thanks to Callaway for sponsoring today's podcast. If you're not playing, he's sending my, my son for Lukey's new clubs.

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Sweet. You don't need cable or satellite to watch HBO. Download the HBO Now app and start a free one-month trial. You can watch Mike Tolan's Kareem documentary that we've argued about for five six hours I'm back in

I've watched it three times oh great thank you thanks to SeatGeek the presenting sponsor of the BS podcast and channel 33 most important

thanks to The Ringer go to theringer.com to sign up for our new newsletter Mike Tolan thank you it's fun this was fun.

I'll see you at a Clipper game. Can't wait. We about this bitch. Anytime y'all want to see me again, rewind this track right here, close your eyes, and picture me rolling.