The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 87: Chuck Klosterman and David Shoemaker

Episode Date: April 6, 2016

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons welcomes Chuck Klosterman to respond to Monday night's wild NCAA championship game, rank all-time Final Four moments (11:30), discuss the singularity of collegiate success (26:00), break down Celtics-GSW (30:00), go over the NYT’s Joe Lacob story (36:00), and have the pro-chance vs. pro-karma argument (42:00). Then, David Shoemaker joins to announce he's joining The Ringer and break down all things ‘WrestleMania’ (53:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Twitter feed. At Ringer, we announced two more writer hires there today. Very excited about K. Austin Collins is going to be writing a little film stuff for us. And Kate Nibbs is going to be helping out the tech side. Congratulations to them. More announcements coming, maybe even in this podcast.

Oh, yeah, get ready for our second guest. Yeah, I don't know why I'm whispering. And we're off. Yeah. Clearing off for you. All right. Chuck Klosterman my old friend on the line

Tate Frazier producing the podcast he's a show of himself, Carolina fan showed up to work today Chuck was that a better win for Villanova or a worse loss for Carolina

I would say it's a better win for Villanova I don worst loss for Carolina? I would say it's a better win for Villanova. Okay, I agree. I don't think anyone would look at this game and say, ah, man, Carolina choked. Like, nobody would say that, right? I mean, they played great. The whole game, I mean, anybody who watched this, it's not like I'm having some kind of controversial stance here.

I mean, that was an exceptionally fun game to watch. There were so many clutch shots in that game. Not just the last two. Throughout the whole game, the whole second half. I think both teams played great. I was thinking more in the way of just the devastation of you tie it on a double clutch three. And then you at least think you're going to overtime. You know Nova's going to get a shot off,

but you don't think it's going to be a wide open three to the guy who inbounded the ball. All we've learned over the last 50 years of basketball is to watch the inbounder. When there's less than eight seconds left, the inbounder's always involved in the play. It's just the rule of basketball. Although that's more of a... I mean, when the ball's at midcourt, that's definitely true. I mean, when you have the whole floor to work with,

you obviously can't follow the guy. I mean, they let the dude go up the court pretty much unencumbered because you don't want to hand-check him and give anything cheap. I studied the tape like it was the Zapruder film last night. There's three guys – so one Villanova guy comes out to set the pick on the point guard for the point guard's guy. And then the inbounder is coming up.

There's only two Carolina guys. And yet there's three Carolina guys in the paint covering two Villanova guys. And really, with five seconds left, you only have time to dribble up and then make one pass. So my thing is I don't want to leave the guy wide open who's 10 feet away from the guy with the ball. So I thought that was a mistake. You know what I mean?

I mean, maybe it was, but I would argue that if you're dealing with the whole court, you can't follow. Yeah. You can't really stop your opponent from taking a 21 foot shot right i mean somewhere on the floor they can take that shot i mean you know it's it's you know it's either 19 20 year old kids they're playing you know they call the timeout so i'm sure all the things you said i'm sure that this was all stressed to them by Roy Williams. You're probably right. In a tie game, you know, I mean, it's a really tough situation because you have no room for error.

You're essentially saying they're going to get some shot off. I hope it's 30 feet away and not 14 feet away, but in all likelihood it's going to be somewhere in between. And that's what happened, and he made it. I thought it was the biggest gut punch loss I've seen in college basketball. I've seen some good ones. You could technically say NC State, Houston,

the air ball getting dunked in. Well, yeah, I mean, that's still the greatest finish because of the disparity of talent in that game. And, you know, and so, I mean, if you would ask me, like, is this the greatest ending to a college basketball game I've ever seen, I guess I would say no.

But it's pretty much impossible to complain with because I really feel like, well, there were certainly two shots that seemed like game winners. I thought there was a play with about 23 seconds left or 20 seconds left where Page got a rebound and made an incredibly tough shot to cut it to one. I mean, that is, I think I like it, you know. This was one of those rare games where like a couple times I sort of made audible sounds while I was watching it. I was just like, oh, you know.

And we're grizzled sports veterans. See, that's why I think this was the greatest ending to a game I've ever seen and the worst loss I've ever seen because the last 30 seconds, the page play, the first page play, which nobody's going to remember. I didn't even know how he got the ball. I didn't even see a satisfactory replay. It seemed like he just lost the ball, and then all of a sudden he had it again, and he was doing this twisting reverse layup.

And then the double clutch three, which was insane. I can't believe that went in. It was insane for two reasons. One, if he misses that shot, which a normal person would, he would, you know, 95% of the time, then people might be hammering Roy Williams for having just no play at the end, sort of, you know, but he made it, you know. And also, when you watch that shot, he's not just throwing it up there. I mean, it looks, like when I saw it live, I wouldn't say it looked lucky, but like it

looked more kind of like chance, but he never took his eyes off the rim. He totally sort of put himself back together again in the air, shot the ball as cleanly as he could. I mean, that was the best. The end of that game sort of changed my opinion about him as a guy, as a player. I thought he was pretty good, but, you know, all year, it had kind of been the story seemed to was pretty good, but, you know, all year, it had kind of been,

the story seemed to have been that Bryce Johnson became sort of the key to that team, even though going into the season, I think, I mean, Tate would know this more than I, that Tate can't speak. That Paige was going to be sort of the center of the team, and then it became Johnson, but when it got down to the...

not the bolts or whatever. I want to go back to one thing, though. This can't be the worst loss you've seen in a basketball game. You've watched so many thousands of games. This one was the worst loss? No, for college. I just think when UNC hits the double-clutch shot, at that point you think you have the momentum and you're going to win in overtime.

I was watching and thinking, Villanova's got to go full court. The point guard they had wasn't the kind of guy who's just going to create some awesome shot by himself. And I just thought North Carolina would stay with the other shooters. They'd get a terrible shot. We'd go to overtime. Even Jim Nance was surprised. Jim Nance's call was just atrocious. I don't think he even entered his mind that anything was going to happen.

And what I loved about the last play and why I think the degree of difficulty was a little higher and a little greater than that NC State. NC State was an absolutely terrible possession. Wittberg almost lost the ball. He threw up a 35-foot air ball way too early, and Lorenzo Charles was just sitting there. Threw Bailey, almost threw the ball away to Benny Andrews. Yeah, it was just bad.

It was chaotic. Villanova, they come out of the timeout, and Jay Wright's like, here's what we're going to do. Our point guard's going to dribble up. He's going to draw the guy over. They're going to forget about Jenkins. Jenkins, be ready to shoot this. You're going to make the shot to win the national title.

He comes out of the timeout, and he's thinking, like, I'm going to inbound the ball, and I'm going to run. I'm not going to sprint because I can't go too fast because I have to stop and set myself and shoot. But I'm going to run, and I'm going to stop, and he's going to give me the ball, and I'm going to square, and I'm going to shoot. And he's thinking about this for, like, a minute, right? This isn't, like going to give me the ball and I'm going to square and I'm going to shoot. And he's thinking about this for like a minute, right? This isn't like just somebody throwing the ball. This is, he's like, if I make this shot, I'm, I'm, I'm in the buzzer beater montage for the rest of my life. I'm a hero.

I mentioned the first paragraph of every greatest shot thing ever. Did, did what you just said that, that Jay Wright had said in the timeout, did you, is that what he said? He said, that was a set play. What you just said that Jay Wright had said in the timeout, is that what he said he said? That was a set play. The impression I got is, I'm not going to butcher the kid's name, Archie, the point guy, Archie, a Kenoni guy. I got the sense from what I read this morning that they said pretty much,

you get the ball, drive the fuller, go to the middle of the floor, and it's your decision. I mean, you shoot or you look for a guy. I don't know if it was a set play for Jenkins. I think Jenkins peels around to the top like that, but I'm not sure he was the sole option. Well, I'm sure they wanted the point guard if he could get by his guy and get a shot. You always want that guy to shoot because he has the ball.

Usually go to the – But Jenkins, I think, was like, if they go with him, be ready. I don't know. he just seemed ready like if you watch that play like even grant hill before he makes the pass he says jenkins it felt to me like i was watching one of those brad stevens voodoo plays but you know what a great shot i think it's really hard to shoot that shot when you're moving forward like that you know and he drained it it was celebration, too, where really somebody is going to get hurt really badly in one of those at some point. It was like 20 guys just hopping on him.

And then North Carolina was all time devastated. Like, you don't see that either. Well, that happened after the Michigan State-Michigan football game, didn't it? Somebody really got hurt, right? Well, you know, the game where the punter— Yeah. I think the guy who scored on that, I think he got injured on the dog pile afterwards, like missed a bunch of games.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that's what happened. So Charlie Pierce emailed me after. He was talking about how that was another example of the page double clutch shot that now nobody's going to remember was just another example of like that great the moment before the moment that just gets kind of lost in history and we're trying to go back and forth coming up with other ones like sean woods made that great shot before the weightner shot dave henderson game six 1986 world series top of the 10th hits the home run to give the Red Sox the lead. He's going to be a hero in Boston.

He's going to flip the curse, the whole thing, and then the Mets score in the ninth. Nobody remembers that. Andy Chavez had that famous catch in the baseball playoff game with the Mets. He saved the game, but then the Mets ended up losing it. Doesn't this argument sort of invalidate this discussion? You guys both remember all of these things. But we had to go out of our way to remember them.

Like the Rodgers Hail Mary, and then the Cardinals win in overtime. So Paige is on that list. He's with all of those. It's like, oh man, that was great. It's too bad it was the play before the play. I feel like I'll remember that shot, though. It was such a strange-looking shot. It's so clear in my mind.

I mean, who knows? He kept his body upright. But the Final Four in general is probably my favorite sporting event. But I find they do disappear over time in my mind. Someone will ask me, who played in the Final Four seven years ago? And I'll have no idea. Like, they do just kind of poof, because I saw people saying last night that this was

just, you know, like, maybe the greatest national championship game ever. And I was like, I don't know if that's the case, but, you know. No, I think it was certainly, I mean, the real argument is, was that the greatest college basketball shot ever? And for some reason, I always have Leitner as my number one, and meanwhile, that wasn't even to decide a Final Four, I don't think. I think that was a Final Eight game. Yeah, that was to get to the Final Four, but that is a greater shot in a way.

It's a greater degree of difficulty. It had the pass, it had the turnaround, it had the reactions, like all of that was just phenomenal. And it was a phenomenal game. I think if Gordon Haywood made that shot against Duke,

that would be the greatest shot ever. And even that miss would be pretty great. I was going to say, I think even him almost making it is in my top 10 for the greatest shots ever. This one was pretty awesome, though, because, I don't know, I'm still convinced Jenkins knew there was like a 50% chance

he was getting that ball. And he had time to think about it, you know? When you have time to think about that. It was interesting. Did you hear what they were saying about his mom? His mom had taught him how to shoot. And until he was in eighth grade, she wouldn't let him shoot outside of the paint. She didn't want him to get bad habits.

Wow, that sounds like Ben Simmons. You saw his mom hugging him after the game. She looks like an athlete. They were saying this, and I was like, I wonder what his mom looks like. And it's like, she looks like a ball player. Let's take a quick break to talk about our buddies at stamps.com. I like stamps.com because now I no longer go to the post office. I always hated the post office. At stamps.com, you can buy and print official US postage for any letter or package using your own computer and your own printer.

Usually people have a computer and a printer. That's why I said your own computer and your own printer. All you have to do is sign up for stamps.com right now. Use the promo code BS. You get a four-week trial plus a $110 bonus offer that includes postage and a digital scale. My house is covered in digital scales now. I kept just signing up for this over and over again. I just wanted a digital scale. My house is covered in digital scales now. I kept just signing up for this over and over again. I just wanted more digital scales.

Go to stamps.com, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage, type in BS, and you can avoid the post office literally for the rest of your life. That's stamps.com, enter BS, back to Chuck. Do you want to take your victory lap about how college sports is better than pro sports after last night? I'm going to let you do it if you want to take your victory lap about how college sports is better than pro sports after last night? I'm going to let you do it if you want it. Well, it just always seems that way to me. It always seems as though these games matter more. And when they're great, the high end of these games is so much higher because it's a single elimination tournament.

But, you know, it was a very interesting tournament this year. The first couple of days, really the first four days, were so great. And then there was kind of a bad stretch in the middle. Then it was really great at the end again. Yeah, I was bummed. I'm still all in on Buddy. He can't shake me off his scent because he stunk in one game. But that Saturday was just really

depressing it uh neither game was good and oklahoma not only played badly but sometimes in college sports this happens where the team just knows and they they they disintegrate and it really seemed like it started like when they went on that 25 to 3 run or whatever it was just oklahoma just didn't want to be there anymore it becomes one of those like the little league And it really seemed like it started when they went on that 25-3 run or whatever it was. Oklahoma just didn't want to be there anymore. It becomes like the Little League World Series where you're like, oh my God, should we stop this? Plus, you know, on the Saturday of the Final Four, when they're having these teams play in those huge monstrosities, you know, it's just a weird venue. And it does seem like sometimes a team will show up and they're just not in the

right mindset and it's over really fast. And then it just kind of becomes sort of a joke. Yeah, what's weird is Villanova wasn't shaken at all by that bizarre stadium. I mean, all these stadiums look really strange to have a basketball game being played in them. That one seemed super strange. It just seemed like the seats were low and they just kept going back. The first time I ever played basketball in an NBA arena, which was the Staples Center like five years ago, I was so flustered by the glass backboards with the weird distance, with how far the seats were behind the glass backboard. Everything was short. It was like an optical illusion.

It really takes you a while. I can't even imagine playing in that in a football stadium. I don't know. Some people can do it. Bird always used to have trouble in the Silverdome. Remember when the Pistons would play in the Silverdome? It's interesting. In his book, doesn't he go through every venue in the NBA?

Oh, yeah. Doesn't he shoot at it and drive? I feel like that's part in his book, doesn't he go through like every venue in the NBA and says what he's going to be like shooting at in drive? I feel like that's part of that book. Everyone hated the Silverdome, and that was a real advantage for the Pistons because people would go in there and they didn't know what to make of it. And I don't know what the statistics, how they back up. I'm sure there's some way to figure it out. But that was always the legend is like these shooters would go in and they'd be just freaked out by it.

Kind of interesting too because don't you think a lot of these guys That was always the legend is like these shooters would go in and they'd be just freaked out by it. But I wish – Kind of interesting too because wouldn't it – don't you think a lot of these guys must have grown up playing outdoors where it would essentially be very similar? You would think. And that there would be nothing behind the basket. It's not with the see-through backboard though. I think that's the difference. When you have the see-through backboard and then stuff way behind it, then I think you lose your perspective. The whole thing about going to those games

and watching a basketball game in that size of an arena and then not being able to drink, the fact that nobody can drink at these games I think is kind of fascinating. Like you're at that Saturday game for seven hours, you're just drinking Mountain Dew. It almost seems like that's more dangerous. You were sugared up. Yeah, I went to the final four of the year.

It was in Atlanta, and it is a weird deal because you have this court in the middle of the dome, and it's all kind of sealed off by the stands. And around it, it's like you're at the Democratic National Convention or something. It's all these tables and phones and reporters and all these things around. It would be a very – it doesn't seem like a place basketball should be played, but they're never going to switch back. I mean, I think it was – when was the last time that they played a Final Four? They played one in Lexington, Kentucky.

It was the year that Sam Bui and Mel Turpin were there, because the belief was that if Kentucky gets the Final Four that year, they'll be unstoppable because they're playing at home, and then they got beat in the regional. But that's probably the last time. So that's like, what, 85 or 84? Yeah. They've played the Final Four in a real basketball place, or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they're

somewhere in between. It's just a lot of people. You forget how, like, I went to WrestleMania in Dallas on Sunday. It's 100,000 people. It's so big, they had to, usually they do eight-foot ladders for the ladder match. They had to make them 10 feet, because everything felt so small with the scope and

size of the arena. How do you even know that? How do you know they increased the ladder? Well, I'm in a name drop right now. It's going to be one of my best name drops ever. I was talking to The Miz before the show. Oh, really?

The Miz was in the ladder match and he was concerned. He was like, ladder match and he was concerned he was like these usually we use eight foot ladders and these these are 10 feet like that's a big two feet you know especially just those ladder matches are treacherous so he was concerned so outside of a discussion over the ladder logistics what do you and and The Miz talk about? The Miz? Kind of reenact the conversation, a conversation you would have with The Miz in this scenario. All right, The Miz, Grantland fan.

He's been on my podcast. He actually came over to my house a few years ago to do my podcast. Okay, so you're maybe not friends, but you're definitely acquaintances. Definitely, like, always excited to see each other. And saw him before the match. He was with his wife. Does he hug you?

Does he hug you? Big handshake, couple shoulder slaps each way. He knows I'm a giant real-world fan as well, so we always have that little bond. And then just like, how are you feeling? And we start talking about the ladder match, and he's talking about just, you know, yeah. And his wife was all nervous next to him. Yeah, they get, you know, those guys, they take some major bumps, and it's one of those things, like the ladder goes the wrong way,

you dislocate your ankle, like you just don't know. Wait, can we go back to college basketball for one second? Sure, sure, sure. So you were saying about how these things all, you get older, these shots, these things all blend into each other, all that stuff. I realized that I thought Chalmers' shot won the title for Kansas. What is it, like eight years ago? I'm just old.

I was like, oh, no, actually Rose, you know, made the free throws and then they came down and, and they made the game tie in three, and it went into overtime, and they lost it. But it is funny, like, these games, you get older, you get older, these games blend into each other. But, like, the MJ shot, I remember. Oh, I remember that very vividly. Well, because it's odd. The very first national championship I remember watching was Indiana-North Carolina, which of course is easy to remember because Reagan got shot that day.

Yeah, Isaiah. And then almost every championship for the next five or six years, I feel like I have a very clear memory of. And then the more you add to your round of RAM or something. Plus, I have this, I have a strange history that any time I miss an NCAA championship, it tends to be a classic. Like the Kansas game you mentioned? Yeah. That was when I, remember when I was briefly living in Germany? Yeah.

That was the weekend, that was the weekend I moved to Germany, so I missed that game. When the Carmelo game, when Syracuse played Kansas, I had to fly to England to interview Radiohead, so I missed that one. And when Villanova beat Georgetown, I was in eighth grade, I think, but I was at an indoor track meet, and I remember they announced the they announced the the outcome of the game during the track meet you know and and everyone kind of clapped and cheer but it seems like I'm also a member when one year Indiana played UNLV on in the final four when it was like Steve Alford and Armand Gilliam and all those guys yeah classic game Armand Gilliam was in. Yeah, I was at a livestock judging competition.

So I was like looking at Hereford cattle, judging them during that game. You know, I was just a huge Indiana fan. So the whole day I'm thinking about this game. And then I get home and I hear all about it. I think that's when it was still in the afternoon. They still played those games in the afternoon. That is one of the great things about the Monday Night Championship game is if you do go back, you can always remember where you were, where you watched it in each game.

I just can't totally remember what happened, but I can always remember where I watched it. And last night, definitely. I mean, the kind of lost great game, and I don't know why. I don't know if it's because Ramil Robinson didn't become a great pro or whatever happened. But the Seton Hall-Michigan game, every time there was a game, that's the greatest game ever. Andrew Gaze played so good

in that game. That's such a good game. Glenn Rice played awesome in that game, too. That was a real memorable one. Oh, another great one was Kansas and Oklahoma, Danny Manning's senior year. Yeah.

And there was that kid for Oklahoma, Seager. He was just unstoppable in the first half. I guess these games, when I actually think of them, you're right. Not only do I remember what happened, but I do remember not only where I was at, but where I was sitting in my living room. And don't forget, I mean, arguably the most memorable game. I would still say 82, MJ making the shot, even though we didn't know he was MJ yet.

But all the guys on the floor, Ewing and Worthy and Perkin. It was just Sleepy Floyd. That game was just ridiculous. It felt like an NBA game. To me, that's still the pinnacle of – that's the best college basketball game I've ever seen from a talent standpoint. But C-Web, the timeout, just everything about that game, I think that's the most memorable college basketball game I think I've ever watched. Because the Fab Five, they were so compelling. Just everything about it and how it ended.

And then it was immediately so tragic. And he was so famous and they were so famous at the time. And, you know, I think that's still number one for me. Yesterday was pretty good, though. Yeah, the single most memorable game in terms of, like, you know, the people I was with. That may have been the Duke-Kentucky game because it was a bunch of people and it was a real hard-rooting interest. This was when I was in college. I was a sophomore.

And Duke had some cachet at that point. Yeah, Duke was a real event at that point. The Duke-Vegas game, when they beat them, that was real great. In terms of just remembering even the sequence of plays. This is why I argue that I always like college basketball more than pro basketball, because when these games have these apex moments, it does seem like it matters more in a way that like i i don't know the nba never feels like it matters as much even though the level of play is higher like it just doesn't seem like it if if uh

if golden state doesn't win the title this year i'll be like well that's a surprise but we'll just kind of move on it's not like it's going to stay with the program, because it's not a program, it's a franchise. The greatest game I saw this decade in person was when Miami fought off San Antonio in that game six and Ray Allen made the crazy shot. That was a great game. I think the difference when there's a game like that is just the amount of talent.

Oh, of course. It's like there's no question about that. But I also remember a game where LSU played Loyola Marymount when Shaq was there. Oh, yeah. And it was when Loyola was good and Shaq had like 13 blocks in the game, and all the Loyola guys had huge numbers. I just think that that kind of thing is so much more unique. Great pro games tend to be great in the same way.

I guess I feel a little bit like the NFL in the same way. A great pro game, it's kind of like a thing. It's like, oh, happy families are all happy in the same way that that a great pro game um it's kind of like you know that thing it's like oh happy families are all happy in the same way but every depressed family is uniquely depressed seems like a great pro game is great in the same way but every great college game has this kind of singularity to it um you know because it's just you know it's not just because it's younger guys, but you're really almost rooting for a kind of person. In fact, here's a great example. Last night I texted a few people while I was watching the game just to be like, what kind of person goes to Villanova outside of the players?

I've never met somebody who went to Villanova. I think Huey Long, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, Howie Long,

not Huey Long, Howie Long. Yeah. It'd be funny if Huey Long, but Howie Long was there. So it's like, that's sort of my, uh,

like I, but that's something that doesn't happen at the pro level. Like you don't watch the Spurs and you go like, ah, what kind of wonder kind of person lives in San Antonio? Like that doesn't really happen. You don't watch the Spurs and you go like, what kind of person lives in San Antonio? That doesn't really happen. Because there's this agency with going to a school and you kind of represent the kind of person.

And you've got the cheerleaders crying and the players are more likely to cry in college. It seems like there's more raw emotion. But you look at something like that Miami-S antonio game six lebron played the best nine minute stretch i've ever seen him play in that game in the fourth quarter to basically he he kept miami in that game he just went to another level and then san antonio went to another level with the shots they were getting the last couple minutes and all of a sudden you know it's about to be over, chaos,

and then Real makes the greatest shot I've ever seen in my life. That's the element that I just don't think you're going to get with college. The college seems more raw and relatable and chaotic. Well, I just think that if you love a pro game, there's only one reason to love it. Greatness. Yes. Like what you're describing is sort of possession after possession of raw, unadulterated greatness. But in college, there's a hundred different reasons to love the game. You know, a game can be interesting just because like the difference in style, like boxing is so profound. I mean, how often do you see a pro game

where what's unique about it or what's sort of fascinating is sort of the dissonance of style? It happens a little bit, but it happens in college basketball all the time. I will say this, though, that why, you know, because we've had this discussion, I don't know how many fucking times now over the time we've known each other,

I feel like we talk about this every other year. I love it. But one thing that does sort of, I think, I don't know how many fucking times now over the time we've known each other. I feel like we talk about this every other year. I love it. But one thing that does sort of, I think, a card in your favor, something else, is that in my memory at least, when you would watch college basketball games, every possession seemed meaningful. It didn't matter when the game was, if it was in January, because people really cared about winning the conference.

Like, you'd be watching, you know, Indiana and Illinois or whatever, and winning the conference was a big deal that the game would seem, you know, amazing. Now it has shifted, I think, that the players have sort of been socialized the same way the public has, but they really only care about the tournament. Like, I just don't get the sense that a lot of these kids still care about winning the ACC or winning the Pac-12. They're concerned about getting into the tournament, getting a good seed, and playing well there, which has, to a degree, professionalized college sports. But isn't part of the problem with that that they keep switching teams in all these different conferences?

Like, I don't even know who's in what conference anymore. If we had the Big East and the Big East was the same for 35 years, I feel like it would matter more. And same for the ACC. Everyone jumps around. That's definitely happened in football. But in, you know, the Big Ten, outside of the weird kind of, you know, pushing Maryland and Rutgers in there, that's still fundamentally the same. I guess Nebraska's in there too.

It's weird. It was like if they could have kept the Big 12 the way that used to be, that would have been smart. And it is too bad that they broke up the Big East. But that's like now i don't know that's just you know what though you're talking about like just pure greatness that's all you have so the celtics beat the warriors on friday night in oakland and you know other than that that was the best the celtics have ever played for stevens it actually made me think in the i know i'm a

giant homer in the right scenario where cleveland does seem like they're ready to fold a little bit, like just mentally, even though LeBron's been playing great the last two weeks. But just mentally, I think that team's fragile. I do think the right team could shock them in a playoff series. That was the first time I kind of felt like, yeah, maybe the Celtics could just really step it up and shock them. But the thing with the Warriors game that really struck me more than anything, we're up seven with like a minute and ten seconds left, right?

Normally in an NBA game it's like it's over. There's no way that team's coming back. I was so scared of the Warriors. I just assumed they were going to hit a three. I just assumed they were going to hit another three. We're up, you know up four with 30 seconds left. Curry comes down, draws the double team, throws his perfect pass to Harrison Barnes in the corner,

makes the three. Now they're down three with 10 seconds left. They somehow get the wide open shot for Curry. I just assumed it was going in. It didn't go in. It was shocking. I was literally flabbergasted. I don't remember feeling that way watching an NBA team in 20 years since the Bulls.

Jordan got to that point where you were just shocked when Jordan didn't come through. And I'm already there with the Warriors. They've only won one title. Yeah, I have a question about the Warriors for you. There was a story in the New York Times this weekend where all these venture capitalists were trying to argue that this was – Okay, but in the story, the writer at one point said that there hasn't been a team since the L.A. Showtime Lakers where people so often discuss the way they played as much as they succeeded. But I was thinking about that.

That's not true. Well, okay, even let's say that it was. When that was happening, half the country, though, I mean, it was kind of a, it was sort of a two-team league at the time. Half the country rooted for the Lakers, half rooted for the Celtics, you know. And so there were people who saw the Lakers and saw their style of play and hated them. You know, and hated that. Do you sense

that if we went around to the other guys in the NBA, players, coaches, and we said, who would you like to see win the title? They would say, us. And I was like, exclude your team. I get the sense most of them would say Golden State.

Isn't it strange how there seems to just be nothing but goodwill toward this team still? Or do you think that is changing? Do you think that there are now, if there's anybody out there rooting against them, I still feel like generally they are now everybody's, at worst, second favorite team. I don't know anybody who doesn't like watching them or kind of hope they succeed. That, to me, is actually pretty new. It does seem like, first of all, Kobe, Shaq, the Lakers, they never got there, obviously. LeBron invalidated the possibility of that happening with the way that he went to Miami.

So nobody was ever going to fully root for that team. The 27-game winning streak, I think, was half the people were rooting for it to keep going. The other half were just rooting for it to get shut down. The 96 Bulls, I do feel like a lot of people were in on that team because we missed Jordan. And, you know, it was just fun to have him back with, like, that killer instinct again. And it was just such a great ride. I think that's the last time that happened.

That might have been. Because I do remember, like, when Jordan came back and he had that game against the Knicks and it was just like, it seemed like everybody was excited about this again. Like, the fact that it was happening at all, regardless of how they felt about him previously. It was like having it was like breaking up with somebody and then that you really you know that you really love dating and then all of a sudden they're back in your life this is great i love this i missed you so much that's how i felt when jordan came back and then the orlando series happened and we all agreed to never mention it again and then he came back and the orlando

series was was like almost like his tiger woods moment when tiger woods lost to yi yang it was like oh somebody somebody looked tiger in the eye and gave him a haymaker and he actually like went down this is what does this mean and then he just came back and ran through the league but hold on that lake up story i want to talk about that quickly, and then we have to go. I thought it was – first of all, there were some really good lessons in there about communication and organization and how a good idea can come from anywhere. And there were some things I liked. It was astonishing to me how much credit he took, especially because, first of all, Curry was already there when he took over the team. And on top of that, Curry was only there because the stupid Minnesota

GM passed on Curry twice to take two other point guards. So you have that. Clay Thompson was already there when he bought the team. They tried to sign Dwight Howard, which never gets mentioned, in the summer of, I think, 2013. Remember, they threw all their chips in the Dwight Howard thing. They cleared cap space for him. The year before, they tried to sign DeAndre Jordan. If either of those things happen, none of these titles happen, right? And they've also been extraordinarily lucky with injuries. Like, their top three this year has really played almost every game.

And my point is if I had had a pretty nice run of luck there and some things happened that maybe if they had happened it would have been terrible. Like what? Steve Van Gundy they almost hired. And he turned them down. He went to Detroit and they settled on Steve Kerr who was the right coach for them. A lot of things could have gone wrong for them. And if I'm owning the team, I'm at least mentioning that luck's a possibility for all this. I'm not just saying, oh, this would have happened anyway.

I thought that was crazy. I thought he violated every karma rule there was. What was your takeaway? Well, I wouldn't even say he broke the rules, broke the rules of karma. It's just, it's a weird thing to do. And it's not as though, okay, he comes out and kind of says, essentially, or at least the story was framed this way. I do wonder if maybe he reads that story and he's like, that wasn't really what I thought.

I didn't realize we were talking about that. But it's not like you're going to read that story and go like, that's convincing. I guess it was the owner. You know, it's like that's never how it works. It just's not like you're going to read that story and go, like, that's convincing. I guess it was the owner. You know, it's like that's never how it works. It just makes people like you laugh. It's not the players. And it's like, yeah, okay, so they hired Kurt. That was brilliant.

Of course, isn't that what James Dolan wanted to do? And he's an idiot. I mean, it's like, so they would have hired him. At one point in the story, it kind of suggests that, like, well, you know, one of the smart things they did is they did not interfere with Jerry West when he wanted to make these moves. Well, that's what you're supposed to do if you hire a guy like that, right? Part of me does wonder if the story somehow kind of started from the thesis that we want to illustrate VC culture in Silicon Valley. And this is the kind of person, and it's the kind of person who's smart and knows he's smart and wants you to know it. And maybe that's just the person he is. But you don't often, i just it just didn't did

not come across well like i the two things the two things that he should absolutely take credit for is one it took balls to fire mark jackson like the guy the media loved mark jackson and they were going to defend him no matter what happened. He had so many cronies just placed all over the place. So that was not going to be a popular decision. And then I thought it took balls not to trade Klay Thompson for Kevin Love. That was a really smart non-trade by them. Other than that, they bought a team that was in the sixth or seventh biggest market in the United States and really is the centerpiece of Silicon Valley.

And I think now there's a lot of people who are there, a lot of rich people who are like, shit, I should have bought the Warriors. I blew that one. So I'm sure he's feeling himself with that. I'm sure there are many people who think that now. But it's just like so many things came together there. A lot of things. I mean, hiring Kerr.

Hiring Kerr was great. It was great. You know, everybody sort of concedes that Popovich, clearly the best coach in the NBA. But then again, Kerr played for him, in many ways seems like him, except a little more or considerably more media-friendly and younger, maybe a little closer to what's happening. I mean, he might be the best coach in the league.

He just hasn't coached long enough to prove it. He's like if Phil Jackson and Popovich had a baby, because he played for both of them. They had a coach baby, he's Steve Kerr. And they just, they've had, you know, they've got these guys playing these strange positions

who are also really intense, and it just a lot of things sort of work out in this way. Well, that's another lucky thing. Like Draymond falls to 37. Now they're smart enough to take him, but 15, 16, 17 teams pass him, and that's how they get him, and that's luck. And maybe he mentioned the luck part, and the writer just didn't use it, but if that's the case, he should have come out and said something

because, you know, first of all, all these rich guys who own all the different teams, they all know each other. They all run in the same circles. So this did not go over well in super rich guy circles. And I mean, I've already heard stuff about how the Warriors, their local TV deal, they settled for a number that's way less than they could have gotten had they done a smarter deal, like kind of read the landscape better. I think they make like $40, $45 million from their local TV deal per year, and now that should be like over $100. So I've already heard that from people in those rich guy circles, like, oh, Lacob's so smart.

Why did he leave all that local TV money on the table every year? So he just basically put a bullseye on his back, which isn't great. And I really honestly feel like he violated some karma rules. It's really the hot blackjack table thing, right? If you're winning money at a blackjack table and you're just raking it in hand after hand, don't talk about how great you are at blackjack. Just don't do it. I can ask you one question quick, though. I saw you kind of posted that on Twitter, and you've just said it now.

I'm curious. Yeah. When you talk about things like karma, is that sort of your media take, or do you actually believe it? I actually believe it. No, I genuinely believe it. I really do. Okay. So what is your belief system, then?

Like, are you a spiritual creature? Oh, this is good. I like when you—no, it's weird. I am a little spiritual with stuff like this. I guess I am, because I'm not religious. But I think it's bad form. Well, first of all...

No, it's definitely bad form. I think humility is a good thing. What you're actually saying is that you're saying that there is that in some ways he intangibly has put the team at risk of winning the title. I do. I feel that way.

Does that make me a crazy person? I honestly feel that way. I'm not going to say it makes you a crazy person, but I'm wondering what makes you think that. Like, have you had experiences in your life that have validated this? Do you just feel like the universe must work this way? It only seems reasonable that doing something uh negative will bring negativity are you kind of like like do you believe like in crystal and shit like that like would you or like how about feng shui and like the way your house is designed do you believe

in that i don't believe in that do you read your horoscope no but i do ever i that the horoscope thing scares me though it scares me that people born in different months have the same characteristics. Like people have guessed that I'm a Libra and that scares me. I don't understand that whole thing. And then you get to the Chinese New Year stuff. That's also frightening to me. So I stay away from all that stuff. Psychics stay away.

I don't pray. Ever. I don't pray. But I do – Even when the Giants were driving against the Pats in that Super Bowl. Now, who am I praying to? God's got to have better things going on than that. But yet you believe that there's some force that's interested in NBA ownership

and how he's a guy acts to newspaper reporters. You think that that has a consequence. So, I mean, that's the thing. You know, when people talk about God, they'll be like, you know, they'll be mad. They'll be, you know, why would God care about who wins this NBA game, or why would God care about, like, Mike drives my wife crazy when

someone on Survivor will thank God, and she's like, why would God possibly care about Survivor? Well, I never know. If you believe in a conventional God, I mean, he kind of cares about everything, right? Equally. He has unlimited bandwidth to care. So it's like, you could do this,

but I mean, also praying for a team would essentially mean you're praying against a team in a weird way. Maybe this is all being shaped by all the experiences I've had watching sports and gambling and casinos, and it's not rational at all. Is that possible?

But you believe in luck. I believe in luck? You believe some people are inherently luckier than other people. I 100% believe that, and I don't have any explanation for it. I do think some people are luckier than other people. I absolutely do. Well, some people certainly have better luck, but you're saying going forward, like, okay, if you, you don't have to mention anybody, but like, just imagine the entire ringer staff in your mind. Yeah. You believe someone on

that staff is intrinsically luckier than everybody else. And as time moves forward, that person will have more success, not based on what they do or who they are, but because luck is on their side. And it's already on their side. You can't retroactively say they were lucky. Tate is lucky. I met Tate because he was a Grantland intern who was delivering some things that I owned in the Grantland studio. And I just liked their interaction, so I ended up hiring him. I think that makes Tate lucky.

I did hear this story. I did hear this story from a few people that Tate was like bringing over your posters and you had a good conversation with him and hired him almost on the spot. He was the first person you hired, right? Yeah, pretty much. Okay, but wouldn't that, but now

That also might make me insane. I don't know if that may it's either tate's lucky or i'm insane it's one of those he was able to get an internship so that's part partially you know to his credit it's his ingenuity he must have a certain degree of social likability that when this person you did not know came to your house that's true but he has 10 000 twitter followers now i don't know how that plays out with him. It could end up being like a bad 80s movie. He came to your house on the right day. That's the biggest thing. I mean, I'm a huge believer that the biggest factor in my life has been chance. I think with most people that the biggest factor in their success or lack of success

is chance. However, to me, that's very different than luck. Everybody will have certain chances where things will work or they won't, and the window will open and you jump through or you don't. I just don't believe like a leprechaun is making the decision. Like I don't feel like there's anything making luck happen. Okay, so but if you're Joe Lacob and things are going great for your team and you've been really lucky with injuries to your top three guys and just things are going great, would you talk about this publicly and brag about it? So basically you're saying there's no –

He's arrogant. I guess I don't think that him doing this will impact whether or not they succeed, unless, in a tangible sense, maybe Steve Kerr reads that story and goes like, who's this guy? Like, my boss thinks he's smarter than me? Or maybe that the players might be mildly offended if they read the New York Times. But I don't think that there's any cosmic aspect to it. I mean, or or is that short sighted? Am I being childish by trying to like this? Like, like, is this naive realism? And I'm saying basically, the only information that exists is the information I know. I think this is almost like a form of a religious conversation. You're more pro-chance. And I agree with you that chance is a major factor. But I also believe in obeying the rules of karma.

And I don't know why. I don't really have a rational explanation for it. But see, that's a belief in God. Like, a belief in luck is a belief in God. Because it's a belief in a force, like a supernatural force greater than yourself that can influence I've written about this before before the Red Sox won the World Series I went to an Indians Red Sox

game once and we basically needed to win the game to have a playoff chance I think it was 2000 and Nomar hit a ball and it hit the very top of the wall. It seemed like it was going to be Homer and it hit as high on the wall as it possibly could without going over the wall. And it bounced down and he ended up getting a double.

And he was in second base with no outs and we're down by a run. And all of us thought we were going to lose because the ball didn't go over the wall. And you had 35,000 fans in Fenway who were just convinced we were going to lose. And that was it. And we ended up not scoring, and we lost, and we didn't make the playoffs. So what does that mean? Well, do you believe in psychic energy?

Can 35,000 people with a bad feeling cause things on the field to happen? See, I think I do, because I was there, and I could feel the energy, and I think that's kind of how I feel about this Joe Lacob thing. I don't like the psychic energy from those quotes. The same reason, like,

if I'm gambling at a blackjack table and I'm doing well, and some shithead sits down and starts doing some weird stuff at the table, I get up no matter how well I'm doing. I don't want to deal with that. So what does that mean? And not because you're annoyed, but because you think that that player is bringing something

to reality that will affect the sequence of cards that will come out of a deck. Well, did you see in that article Joe Lacob said he's one of the best 10 blackjack players in the world? That was another one. I was like, how do you say that? It's an insane thing to say. He's never going to win again. But again, that's karma. I don't know.

Well, I just – that might be just a reflection of the way the guy talks. So maybe if we were talking about you know if the reporter had been like oh you know me and my wife play scrabble that guy would be like i've never i've never lost at scrabble like maybe he just says that maybe he just says things like that basketball team well we're gonna find out we're gonna find out if karma exists in sports over these next two this will actually prove it so if the Warriors do not win the title proof that karma exists if they win the title karma is a sham

well this has been a meaningful podcast this is it we're in the finals of karma this is the championship finals of karma versus chance alright we have to go we have to call David Shoemaker so let's continue this at another time.

You bet, man. Chuck Klosterman, thank you. Let's take a quick break to talk about baseball season. Oh, it started. Games have happened. Don't you wish you could catch every baseball game? Well, now you can. Only T-Mobile customers get a free year-long MLB.TV premium subscription.

It's a $109.99 value. For free! And you never miss a game. Hurry and sign up by April 10th, and you can catch any out-of-market game all season long. That's over 2,400 games and over 7,000 hours of baseball. My God, that's a lot of baseball. And it will never touch your data plan this season.

Thanks to BingeOn. Only from T-Mobile, you can stream your favorite team's games without using any of your data. So switch to the Un-Carrier today. And if you're already a T-Mobile customer, sign up at T-Mobile.com slash MLB. It's that easy. You have to sign up while you're on T-Mobile's network.

New MLB. It's that easy. You have to sign up while you're on T-Mobile's network. New MLB.TV premium subscribers only. Blackout and other restrictions apply. Visit MLB.TV for details. But yeah, it's that easy. I only watch the Red Sox games, but I could watch every Red Sox game on my T-Mobile phone. Why wouldn't you do this? Again, sign up at T-Mobile.com slash MLB, and you have to do it by April 10th. And since we're talking about streaming, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention we announced a little show called After the Thrones that's going to be on HBO Now.

It stars two of your old friends. Current channel 33 stars Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan. They had a little podcast that once upon a time was on a site that breaks my heart to mention. I'm not going to mention the name, but they used to talk about Game of Thrones after it happened. And now they're going to do it again and even better. It's going to stream on HBO now on Mondays as early as we can possibly get up, get it up. I'm hoping midnight, uh, but it'll be up shortly after the show. It's going to be awesome. These guys talk about that show better than anyone on the planet. So get ready for that. April 24th game of Thrones premieres

shortly after that, after the Thrones it's happening. Congratulations to Chris Ryan. Congratulations to Andy Greenwald. I am looking forward to it. All right. And in professional wrestling, sometimes, well, it doesn't happen anymore because the WWE owns everything. But in the old days, somebody would be on WWE on Monday Night Raw or something one day, and then they would be on the other place the next week, and the announcers would act totally surprised like they didn't know it was coming. I think we're in one of these moments right now.

The newest member of The Ringer. My God, that's David Shoemaker's music. Oh, my God, what's he doing here? Oh, it's a pleasure to be here, man. Yeah, so your last day at ESPN was April 5th, and on April 6th, we're here. And you're a member of The Ringer. You're going to be our art director. You're going to be our art director. You're going to be our, uh, wrestling columnist and you're gonna have a podcast for us.

And I am very excited. I'm excited too, man. I guess a lot, probably a lot of people that just follow my wrestling stuff. Don't know that I always had a real life as an art director. And, uh, it's really cool to be combining those things together. And we wanted to get you to LA so we could have you in the office. Cause over, over all the other things you bring to the table,

one of the biggest things is we really needed the guy at 4.45 p.m. on a Friday who's like, where are we going for drinks? And I think you can be that guy too. You know, just the good for the clubhouse guy. Oh man, I was just saying the other day that like I'm going to die

and my tombstone's going to say David Shoemaker, he was a great hang. I hope I can the other day that I'm going to die and my tombstone is going to say David Shoemaker. He was a great hang. I hope I can achieve more than that. But if I can bring that to the table, I'll be happy that I've done my job. Well, that could at least be in the first paragraph of your obituary. So we saw each other in Dallas at WrestleMania. And the show, I think it's still going. I think WrestleMania 30 is not over yet.

I think we all just left. It was at like four hours and 40 minutes. I don't know. Why so long? Well, I'd just like to say thank goodness for once that professional wrestling is not covered like a real sport because there'd be a whole lot of beat writers missing their deadlines on Sunday night. Oh, God.

I'm complaining about it. Yeah. Yeah. It would have been, Twitter would have been a terrible place to beat writers missing their deadlines on Sunday night. Oh, God. I'm complaining about it. Yeah. Yeah. It would have been, Twitter would have been a terrible place to be if it wasn't bad enough already. I don't know, man. I had a good time on Sunday. It was good to see you there. I think the WWE Network caught us in a couple of frames together once or twice.

But, you know, it was all in all kind of a good show. It had a lot of really cool moments, but it was a show that was sort of built around the moments and not a lot of thought towards some of the other big aspects. One of the craziest things was, like what you just said, the show went so long. I mean, to bring out The Rock, who's great, and then to bring out John Cena, who's also, you know,

is exciting to see, but to have them go, I mean, that weird little segment went until after 11 East Coast time, and then to have a main event that, I mean, 75% of the people in attendance were sort of mad that match was happening to begin with, to put that on last after 11, and have no special hijinks, nothing happening in the match to make it more interesting, was a real bold move. If I were going to play conspiracy theorist and say that they were trying to get Roman Reigns over as the greatest heel in WWE history, that would have been exactly the way to do it.

But yet he's not totally a heel yet. They just won't do it. Why won't they do it? What are they waiting for? This should happen a year ago. Yeah, there's two things one is obviously you know vince mcmahon and other people backstage have a very strong vested interest in him being the next rock or john cena or whoever and they want it to work no matter how how much they're hearing that it's not working from the crowd i mean but the other thing is if there is a a counter, if there is like a, you know, a counterpoint going on in that conversation, there's some extent to which

he's already such a good heel, even more so than John Cena was that, you know, I mean, the whole audience, the whole crowd at WrestleMania was booing him, but booing is more important than cheering, you know, in professional wrestling like that. He was getting a real reaction. And as soon as he turned him heel, you know, we're talking about how awesome it is so i don't know i think that there's you know it kind of cuts both ways that's why when uh they told me ahead of time that they're going to show me on the big video screen i i would much rather have been booed so that's why i flashed the patriots logo i was very excited yeah getting booed is much better than wise bill simmons on on the big screen yeah yeah we yeah. That's exactly right.

There's some applause and some boos or just general confusion. It's like, I just want the boos. I wanted some heat. I want some real heat. The Roman Reigns thing, though, I think you even wrote about this for Grantland maybe two years ago about the new wave heel, which is basically not the traditional heel, but somebody who still generates anger from the fans. It's just a different reason for the anger, but it's still the same anger. And he does for whatever reason.

Yeah, I mean, it's just the way the modern wrestling world works. So much of the fan base is driven by Internet conversation and backstage chatter. And even the fans that don't really engage that way still sort of end up having an opinion close to that because they engage via Twitter or whatever else. All these other websites that they'll go on are kind of spouting that party line. So everyone's sort of in on it, except for the sort of younger demographic. And, well, I mean, you can speak from firsthand experience. I saw you with your son this week, and he's kind of getting out on Roman Reigns.

So, I mean, it trickles down. But, yeah, it's tough. The hardest thing about it is there is, as effective as some of these modern era heels can be, and we saw it with, you know, Triple H most recently, is if you're really getting people to hate you, there's a fine line between that kind of a nuclear heat and what, you know, we call, what we refer to in the businesses as X-Pac heat, which is just sort of like, you know, people are doing because they want you to go away. Right, which is basically where Seamus is right now.

Well, yeah. I mean, when Seamus is on top and people are just sort of like, you know, they don't think that's the – everyone wishes they could be doing something different. Yeah. Yeah, he gets that reaction sometimes. I like Seamus a lot, though. I also like Xbox.

I want to make that clear. Well, you also – I mean, your old podcast was called Cheap Heat. I don't know what we're calling the new one, but there was a lot of cheap heat during WrestleMania. Like when you start dragging out the legends and you kind of know. I love seeing him. My son, he absolutely lost his freaking mind when Stone Cold came out. Like he really almost had a stroke.

And it's great, but, you know, at the same time, it's the equivalent of if the NBA brought out Larry Bird and Magic Johnson right now, and, you know, all of a sudden they're beating the Warriors. It's just, it doesn't help the Wyatts, I don't think. Yeah. To get their asses kicked by The Rock, you know? I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, the Wyatts didn't even get a lick in, which was sort of weird. But of all the legends that came out, I think the biggest shock was Shawn Michaels. I mean, you said it would be like if the NBA brought Magic Johnson and Bird back, it would be like if they both came back with LeBron James' body. Shawn Michaels looked like

he was about 10 years younger and a whole lot more chemically enhanced. He looked incredible out there. Well, it did seem to open the Shawn Michaels comeback door. Because he looked like he was in shape beyond just, yeah, I'm still staying in shape. I exercise twice a week. He's like, yeah, I'm still staying in shape.

I'm ready to be in a Hell in a Cell match in two months. Like that was the vibe I got from Shawn Michaels. no you would expect him to you know I mean a lot of people get into shape later in life but you expect a little bit more of like you know my wife made me cut out red meat shape and not like uh you know like I'm playing Superman in the next in the next DC movie shape it was pretty crazy so you know far be it for me to tell the WWE how to think about things and promote things, but they clearly stumbled on a little bit of gold here with the Shane McMahon comeback, and he took the single most insane bump I've ever seen in person.

I mean, I wasn't there when Undertaker piledrived Mankind through the top of the thing, which is, to me, still number one all time. But they have the Shane McMahon thing going. They also have this NXT thing going. And I don't know if they're going to tap into this as a main storyline, but there is some NWO potential here with Reigns as the champ that nobody's happy with. All the wrestling diehards love NXT and love the future of that,

and you could feel it in WrestleMania when a couple of them from NXT had good things happen to them. And I'm wondering, is that where we could be headed with this, where NXT has to basically save wrestling from this Roman Reigns corporate, them screwing up who the champion is. Let's have the new guys. Could that be where we're going? There's been some chatter about it,

and I think that there's definitely elements of that that are possible, especially if this ends up in a sort of Shane versus Triple H battle for control or battle for the future of the company thing. Although, like you said, NXT is sort of the de facto heroes and Triple H is on the other side of the spectrum, even though he's the sort of godfather of NXT. So it'll be interesting to see where it goes. You know, Monday night they brought up about half the NXT roster onto Raw or announced them for SmackDown.

So, you know, I don't know how many more they're going to bring up in the near future. But, I mean, I agree with you. I kind of think that Shane, I mean, they're separate things. You know, Shane coming back was, I mean, I guess you could, you know, you could, and I did predict how big that sort of return would have been. But the degree to which it happened, you know, the amount of hype that he received compared to everybody else was sort of shocking. I think in general the NXT thing and just sort of the new generation,

not just the young ones, but the new debuts on the roster, have been really, I mean, are kind of this incredible breath of fresh air. I thought about it on Monday when I was watching the people they had competing for the number one contendership, minus Chris Jericho. It's all guys that are sort of on that. They're not NXT all, but they're all the sort of new generation of guys from

the indie scene and stuff. You look at that crop of wrestlers, and especially the women. The women's championship match at wrestlemania thought was great who's an excellent charlotte's crazy moon salt off of the top rope onto the floor

scared me more than change giant off the cage about that almost because it was just to the meeting dot of missing your mail missing the landing or so much higher uh... but you know i was sitting there during that match, and there was, you know, a five-year-old girl who ran from somewhere in the back and just leaned up against the railing for the entire match and was purely captivated, had a mini-diva title belt around her waist,

and was reacting to everything. And I was just sitting there like, I'm sitting behind the next, you know, a future WWE women's champion, you know, and the way that the way that young fans are gravitating towards the women and towards wrestlers like Kevin Owens and Sammy Zane and AJ Styles. I think really, you know, if they have anything, if they've caught any lightning in a bottle, I mean, they really should focus in on that. Yeah, and you correctly wrote the piece last week about how WrestleMania, this is a weird one because so many stars are injured and out and all that stuff. You could make a case like they're actually probably better off developing all these new people. And even having somebody like Jericho in a WrestleMania 32 match, that's such a better match if it's AJ Styles and Finn Balor.

That steals the whole show if it's those two. And I don't know why they just won't kind of make that leap. Well, I mean, I've said back at Grantland a bunch of times that John Cena, his greatest attribute, and not to take anything away from Cena, his 2015 was an all-time year. But the most important thing he does is let your favorite wrestler look important by standing in the ring with him.

And, you know, there's always going to be a really important role for guys like Jericho and Cena and Randy Orton and even, you know, the big show to be the person across the ring. And he just sort of legitimized it in all the kind of casual viewers' minds. So, you know, I talked to Daniel Bryan a while ago, and he made this point. He was like, you know, WWE is a variety show. You know, that's why we have John Cena and the big show and me, me being Daniel Bryan. He's like, if everybody on the roster was Daniel Bryan, you know, it would be boring and I wouldn't be the champion.

And, you know, you've got to have a little bit of everything. And, you know, these guys with long legacies are a big part of that. Yeah, I get it. I just think that you could have blended it a little bit better because Jericho at this point, I think they were counting on Styles versus Jericho to kind of every WrestleMania has that one match that the pure wrestling fans love. And I don't think it got there. And if anything, the women's belt was the one that got there.

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree the women's match was better. I heard so much great stuff about the Jericho Styles match that I went back and rewatched it, and it was actually really, really good. You know, it's hard to do. It's hard to recreate. I mean, it's hard to do WrestleMania every year, give WWE all the credit for pulling it off as much as they have,

but it's even harder to try to recreate Savage Steamboat every year. That's just not going to happen, especially when there's ten other giant moments that you're going to try to cram onto the card afterward. You know, it's sort of, you know, having the one great smart fan wrestling match is important, but it gets lost in the shuffle. What was more fun, Friday night at NXT or Sunday at WrestleMania?

Well, I mean, NXT by far, but, you know, and anyone listening that hasn't been to an NXT show, one of these events, you know, one of these big SummerSlam or WrestleMania or anything or just a regular NXT event, check it out, because it's crazy. But just like everything else, I've got to kind of... People think I'm a sellout when I say stuff like this, but I firmly believe it. The NXT show is really awesome, but only when you have WrestleMania to compare it to, or you have Monday Night Raw to compare it to. It's just such a different vibe.

It felt like going to an old you know it was what's way bigger than the sportatorium that venue but like an old you know world-class von eric's arena show uh in the 80s it was yeah i half expected an old woman to jump out of the front row with a hat pin and stab kevin i mean stab samoa joe or something but uh it was it was just so so cool it's all and i would say the ECW late 90s had that vibe, too. It's very hard to capture, and it usually doesn't last very long. Yeah, I said to Rosenberg this week, the thing that scares me, the thing that I'm saddest most about NXT is that they're getting to the point where they're getting too big for

the fun venues. And when they were in Brooklyn, they ran a Barclays Center, and they're going to probably do it again at SummerSlam this year. And I like the Hammerstein Ballroom. You know, I like the place that we were at for NXT this year, the convention center that, you know, probably had a rodeo in it the night before. I mean, it's just a really cool, these cool, you know, underused venues are part of what makes the vibe feel different.

And that's part of what makes it so fun. Lesnar, I think we've already achieved peak Lesnar. I don't know if there's more. All he does now is suplexes. It's like we get it, dude. Yeah, oh, you're into the 20s suplex again is there any way he can add to his repertoire his playbook anything is there anything he could do because i think this is going to flame out pretty fast if that's all he's doing yeah i mean i guess that's true i mean when people go see their

favorite bands from the 90s they just want to hear the hits over and over again. But, I mean, I guess they kind of agree. No, it sounds like you disagree. Well, I mean, that's not what I would want to hear. And especially if he's a current, if you consider him a current, you know, significant wrestler and not just a, he's not a throwback act. Like, you know, if the Rock is a little bit when he comes back and certainly not like, you know, if you brought in Hulk Hogan or whoever for one last run.

I mean, it's not just doing the three moves and getting out of the ring. Yeah, I think he's a better wrestler than, you know, some of the predictable guys we've had over the years, like Hogan, Warrior, people like that. This guy actually knows what he's doing, so why just do superlatives? He's one of the most talented guys on the roster. I totally agree. And I think that it's up to WWE to sort of put him in position to succeed. I was really caught off guard

by the fact that he and Ambrose were not in most of the mainstream promotion for the show. It was the title match and the cage match, the Hell in a Cell match, and the Women's Championship match. Those were the faces that you saw over and over again. Um, and you know,

as many injuries as we had as much as empty is sort of the WrestleMania card looked a couple months ago. It's kind of hard to believe that they gave that match short shrift. Um, but both of those, both him and Ambrose could have, you know, conceivably wrestled for twice as long and done a lot more crazy stuff and really brought the house down. But for whatever reason, it seemed like WWE and as a byproduct, Lesnar weren't really motivated to make that one of the moments that we'll remember at WrestleMania.

Yeah, I think they're messing up the Ambrose thing a little bit I just feel like he's Roddy Piper in the mid 80's and I never liked when Roddy Piper became a good guy Roddy Piper was always the best when he was a villain and he was starting stuff and I just think that's his DNA and I don't like where he is right now

I wish he would just become a super duper bad guy yeah well when I start putting pen to paper for The Ringer, we should do a counterfactual piece or a fantasy book. Imagine what would have happened if Reigns and or Ambrose had taken Rollins' spot as the authority member. Yeah, I think it would have been better. Yeah, I mean, Ambrose was born to be a bad guy.

I think part of what made it so interesting at the beginning is that, I mean, I really thought that Rollins was just going to be a textbook good guy for, you know, that was going to be his role. And I thought Ambrose was, like you said, going to be bad guy Roddy Piper. And they went the other way, and it worked. I mean, Rollins was great as a heel and will continue to be, presumably, throughout his career. And Ambrose, but I think you're right about Ambrose.

I mean, it's never quite clicked, and it's gotten as close to clicking as it could over the past few weeks. But then WrestleMania just sort of put a damper on it all. You know, there's been rumors that Vince and the rest of the people backstage aren't quite sold on him as a top guy, and maybe that's why they're happy to let him just sort of stay where he is and not mess with what they have. But the one thing that's undeniable is that when he is in the main event

and when he's in the ring in main event spots, be it wrestling or cutting promos, the crowd reacts to him like you stone-cold Steve Austin. And there's not many other people. And he's not there. He's got a long way to go, especially with his ring work, to really become that sort of iconic level. And that's taking nothing away from the dude, as everybody would in his position.

But not many people get that kind of reaction from crowds across the country. And it's not every time he comes out. It's only when he's in that main event spot they really respond to him. I can't remember if I told you this on Sunday, but we got there super early because we had to film a couple of things for them. And sort of backstage, ran into a whole bunch of wrestlers and my son got more pictures. My son at now, his picture album with WWE wrestlers is pretty outrageous, but they're all really nice. Right. And I'm always struck by, man, these guys are about to go out in front of 80 000 people or

20 000 whatever venue you're in and they're you know they're taking big athletic risks and a couple big spots especially wrestlemania and they're all super nice hey how you doing blah blah it's like they they're not about to do that ambrose we saw him and my son like didn't even want to go up to him for a photo he He was so locked in already three hours before. He had the look on his face of somebody who was about to have the absolute shit beaten out of him by Brock Lesnar for 20 minutes. He was trying to get himself psyched, and I actually felt bad for him. That's my story. Yeah, no, I mean, I don't want to undersell the match that they had.

I don't want anyone to take away from it that they didn't go all out, or at least Ambrose didn't go all out. He got thrown head and neck first onto a pile of chairs about 15 times. It was brutal. But, yeah, I mean, I guess part of my biggest disappointment is that for what he went through, the pay, you know, the fallout doesn't seem like it's going to be that significant. I mean, who knows what's next for him?

He could be headlining the next pay-per-view for all we know, but yeah, I mean, it makes sense. Ambrose is, I mean, I've only interacted with him a little bit, but he's a funny guy because he always gives off the vibe of being in character and being sort of like the guy you should stay away from, but in reality,

in reality, he's like, well, I mean, WWE, inside WWE, he's one of the best PR guys. He's always everywhere on time. He's really great with all the appearances and interviews and stuff. And people that know him love the guy. He's just a different sort of guy. Well, you could see the look on his face three hours before. I'm sure. It's just got to be brutal. I can't imagine the look that would be on my face. Well, you could see the look on his face three hours before. I'm sure.

It's just got to be brutal. I can't imagine the look that would be on my face. Oh, my God. Can you imagine? Like, you're going to bed the night before. You'd be like, oh, my God. I'm about to be in 20 car accidents. That's what's going to happen to my body.

Well, it was – I'm going to give it a B for overall grade for WrestleMania. I thought the McMahon bump was seriously one of the craziest things I've ever seen. And I think that will end up being the legacy of that whole card, is it will be the one when Shane McMahon climbed up to a 20-foot steel cage and jumped, and I really thought he was dead. Yeah. Yeah, I saw the video that you posted. I think everybody that was sitting around where you were sitting posted an Instagram or a Vine or a Twitter video or whatever.

And all of them got a million views. Yeah. It was such a crazy moment that I'm glad that I wasn't sitting right there in front of it just then. Because I think I would have just like... In the video you can hear Beatle, like Shane McMahon's about to do the cross, and Beatle like screams and not even kidding was like, please God no! It sounded like a kid was being dangled over a cliff or something. It was terrifying. I didn't think he was going to do it. It seemed way too high. It really seemed like he was going to kill himself.

It's weird because when he started climbing, I think everybody thought he was going to jump off the cage. But then the higher he got, the more I started thinking, like, what is going to interfere with this? You know, what is the Undertaker going to follow him up? Is he going to stop? Is he going to stop halfway and just jump from there? You know, it didn't, as much as I had, like, talked about it ahead of time,

when it started happening, my mind was just sort of blown. I was in a complete state of disbelief when it was going on. But, yeah, I agree. You know, you're talking about promoting the young guys. It's a little bit sad that the image we're going to see for the next 20 years is of this 40-something-year guy jumping, jumping to his near death. But, uh, but man, that was, that was incredible. Well, I mean, what, and it was, I mean, just an incredible moment to be present for. All right. So David Shoemaker, you finally have your own name as a Twitter handle,

which is a big victory for us this weekend. And you are coming to the ringer and we will have your columns and your podcasts and you will coming to the ringer and we will have your columns and your podcasts and you will appear in the newsletter until we actually launch the website and you're going to help us design the website and you're in charge of 445 friday drinks that's a lot of responsibility um well i appreciate the faith you have in me and uh and i'll do my best to take it all on all right it is a pleasure to work together again. I will talk to you soon. Oh, yeah. Thanks to T-Mobile.

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