The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ep. 98: Craig Kilborn

Episode Date: May 12, 2016

Craig Kilborn talks about his lifelong love of basketball and the Timberwolves, as well as his time at ESPN, Comedy Central and CBS. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You have 10 days to decide if you'll keep them. Again, premium clothes, expert advice, no work. Get started today at Trclub.com slash BS. And don't forget to subscribe to our new Ringer podcast, the Ringer NBA show, the Ringer NFL show, keeping it 1600 and the watch all available right now in their own feeds. Let's do it. Well, I never thought this day would happen We ran into each other two weeks ago On the streets of Los Angeles And we were just talking on the street

For a half hour, 35 minutes, 40 minutes We power walked together We decided to do a podcast together He's here, Craig Kilbourne, how are you? This is so exciting Nice to see you Can I make an opening statement? Please do I've timed it at 45 minutes the opening statement i'm kidding so i don't do interviews i just don't i just like it's relaxing not to i'm very i don't

want to hurt anyone's feelings i might say something controversial for example i i uh i have a wonderful lady friend she doesn't like the term girlfriend i've known her for 13 years we've been together maybe six years and she's what we call an exotic waif now i don't even know if we're allowed to say that anymore that's great another term is a gamine which is a french term which means uh i was gonna have your buddy look that up but it's kind of fun i use the word gamine which is a slim uh lady with a mischievous boyish charm. It's a French term, my little gamine. So I have this lovely lady friend.

So, and I'm magical, and I'm walking, and we don't want to give away where you live, but let's just say it's north of Compton. We don't want to give away our neighborhood. No, fair. And we met, but I met you when you weren't Bill Simmons. I met you, I didn't even know. You said we met.

You and Gus Ramsey, the great producer, came to the show. And I thought you meant L.A., but I talked to Gus. He said, no, no, it was in New York. It was like in 1997. I was making $50 a week writing a column on Digital City Boston and bartending at night. That's when I met you. We had a great dinner together. Yeah, so I don't recall it

which is fine you would never be able to call except rebecca lobo joined us and she was and she was fascinating yes and very nice lady and gus reminded me that i used to rebecca and i used to play one-on-one at madison square garden she had the keys to Madison Square Garden yeah she's on the liberty yes and it's not important that I won but I probably could have beaten Lisa Leslie you know but that's another story wait but Gus said when you were playing if people walked in you would make a shot and go 21 to 4 game yeah just for the people that you killed he likes to remind me of all these things but so basically i i i haven't met you i except for that i didn't count that as meeting you and now you're this this juggernaut of nba and i love the nba i know and i said i don't do

interviews and i said you know what? This guy loves the NBA. Plus, you're launching a show. I want to help you launch a show. Thank you. Because I give. Yeah. And I said, why not shoot the shit with this guy concerning the NBA? That would be the love of the game.

And I have so many. I don't know if we'll get to them, but I have little anecdotes that you'll like. I want to see your response to them. I might answer a few Tom Brady questions that I've been been asked and then i'll let you weigh in okay but um that's kind of fun but i was so i said i'll do this because i want to talk nba no that you what's your buddy's name by the way when i lean back our producer i don't remember yeah i don't even remember meeting him earlier i'm kidding uh does when i lean back can you still hear is it still mellifluous tones okay so rip but let's be honest though the only reason you did this is because the minnesota

t-wolves have hope for the first time in 10 years and you just want to rave about the t-wolves no well okay so happy truth be told first of all that's i like you might believe in them more than i do i'm i'm very cautiously. You watch like every minute of every game this season. And a couple of my buddies have pointed out, oh, I got to do a quick shout out. My friend, I referenced Goldie. Yeah. You know Alex Sulkin. You know him.

I do. Yes, I know. These were guys that worked on my old show, and now they're at Family Guy. And congratulations to Goldie. His show, his name's Julia Sharp. His show got picked up by Fox yesterday, his sitcom. It's called Making History. Congratulations to Goldie.

Those guys are huge Patriot fans. I'm going to tell you some stories later. If we get to them. So Goldie said to me a few years ago, he says, this is when it was Randy Foy, Al Jefferson. Oh my God, you watch every game. That's admirable. That's admirable that you watch every game. And I have it down to an art form.

I will turn it off. There's no reason to go through agony. Just enjoy the 22 wins. Just enjoy the 22 wins. I'm going to jump around and I apologize. If they traded, if they didn't trade Brandon Roy for Randy Foy on draft day. Yeah, 2006. KG would not have gotten a championship.

Brandon Roy would have played with KG. They would have made the playoffs. They may have had another player. Maybe they get the seventh, eighth seed. I don't think KG would have ever left. And I'm glad he left because I wanted to win a championship. I'm happy for Kevin Love. I'm a basketball fan first for 20 years.

I was an NBA fan with no team. And that's what I wanted to start off with basketball, my beginning. Well, that's true because you grew up in Minnesota and they don't have anesota yes my father took a job transfer from new jersey to hastings minnesota he worked in st paul and he said when we got there he said don't talk like the locals okay that's what he said and i wanted to ask you like this is what i want to think i wanted to tell you because i want to see i do like you're opinionated and i it's entertaining when guys are not in a hot take way i i genuinely believe you believe it i was wondering that i was wondering yeah i did minor research because oh that's what i that's what i wanted to tell you people have told me you got to read bill simmons book it's great and i said i

know i i know the guy's funny i know he loves the nba i read way too many nba books as a kid yeah zeke from cabin creek jerry west the houdini of the hardwood bob koozie ba the foul the connie hawkins story and on and on and on i'm going to say something about college and then i'm going to go to my childhood and then and then we can just go in all nba but this is nba related so i play basketball montana state university uh and if you'd like to talk about the skills we can any tournament any tournament potential there or no not when I was there yeah I remember at some point they made it after the after I left yeah they played St. John's uh after I left they were the 16th seed in the

west I did have a real well I had a 20 point game at Idaho and they were in a tournament they were very good at the time the first game game I started... I'll quickly get rid of this. What was your game? Like a late 70s Ken Reeves type of game? Like an early Don Nelson? Or like a more Chase Budinger athletic type game? This is going to surprise you. Let me go back to... Can you remember this?

This is what I'm trying to say. I'm keeping track mentally. So, there are 12 of us on the team. This is in 81, 82 is my freshman year two of us are dr j fans so i'm a dr j fanatic julius winfield irving the second his wife's name is turquoise blah blah blah my brother discovered him when he was at umass because he goes this guy's averaging 20 rebounds a game is his uh they couldn't play as a freshman his sophomore he has 20 rebounds again i was a walt frazier fan. My dad was a Knicks fan.

I was Walt Frazier. Then it was Dr. J. And by the way, you can love two players. I love Larry. And we're going to talk about Larry. I love Larry and Dr. J. You can love Tim Duncan and you can love Kevin Garnett. You can love, as you said off air, you can love two women at the same time.

I've heard you say that. But basically, I had these 12 guys on the team and i and so two of us are dr j fans and i go up and the rest are celtic and laker fans and i go up to the guy i go up to a a celtic fan i said who's the biggest whiner in the nba this is predated five questions i would just like to interview the guys who's the biggest whiner in the nba the celtic fans oh it's not even close it's magic and kareem and then you then you ask kareem that is the answer then you ask the laker fans who's the entire nba you don't have to name it the laker fans say it's not even close danny ange and kevin mckayle probably danny yeah so so that's the i do

enjoy these opinions but we know we know that people are um it's like this guy who's a, he's a Laker fan. He says, why do you hate the Lakers so much? I says, I know, they're overrated. The Shaq-Kobe team didn't have a starting five. I don't care that they won three in a row. As I told you the other day, you can be a single champion like Larry Brown's Pistons and be a superior championship team. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

And the Spurs are a dynasty, despite what Uncle Phil likes to say. It's a semi-dynasty. Well, I don't know what your definition of a dynasty is, but they're such a great team. And I love them, and they could have won more championships, so that's okay, but they won enough.

I came up with a word called dynastender. What does that mean? It's a dynasty contender. Do you think they have to, do you believe, did Phil make- I think a dynasty is like when the Celtics won 11 and 13. That's a dynasty contender. Do you think they have to? Do you believe? I think a dynasty is like when the Celtics won 11 and 13. That's a dynasty. Well, that's more than a dynasty.

That's outrageous. The Spurs won five and 18. It's not a dynasty. It's great. It's unbelievable. Yeah, well, I don't care about the terms. Six and eight is kind of a mini dynasty. I don't care about.

Well, see, that's the thing. I just want to. I wanted to say that the people thought I despised the Lakers. There was a guy out here as a Laker fan. And I always say when you're on SportsCenter, they thought that. No, when I was doing the CBS show, because that's when. Oh, yeah. And and it was it was as this guy said to me, he was a Laker fan. He was playing ball with wearing his Laker warm ups. And I always say where are you from and they go he goes i'm from la and i go good

you're not moving here and jumping on the bandwagon and he says oh i i said the fans are obnoxious you know people you know they overrate their team they're delusional it's their god given right to win the championship every year laker fans you know they save their best outfits for the finals etc etc and he he said oh i get it it's it's probably why i don't really appreciate springsteen because the fans are so rabid so it's that kind of thing but i wanted to say this i said this the other day and i'm fine with what you said i said don't think i hate the lakers i'm i'm objective the greatest team i had more of a problem i root for underdogs i had more of a problem with the bulls i didn't think the 90s were the greatest decade for basketball.

It was very good. But after the expansion drafts, four teams coming in. And you lost some dudes. Some of the young dudes who were supposed to be great weren't as good as we thought. And so I thought people who think the Bulls are the greatest team of all time, I disagreed. Because I thought there were three teams in the 80s that could have beaten them. Maybe even more. Some people would say the Moses, Dr. Sixers.

But I like the bad boy Pistons. But I said, to show that I'm objective, I said the Lakers of the 80s were the best team. And I'd rather say the Celtics. And you, of course, say the Celtics. And I'm fine with that. That's fine. The 86 Celtics, one loss at home. And 50-1 at home and to 50 50 and one

at home but for me it's like simple math like with the 86 Celtics 87 Lakers there's only 21 teams yeah and if you had a 30 team league in 1986 Kevin McHale's just not on the Celtics like he's on exactly Orlando right and it's just not the same team. So many stories. Wait, can we talk about the Lakers for a second? Yeah, go ahead. Kobe, you've been here most of the time Kobe played. When did you move to LA? Well, the good news is I lived here in the late 80s. I lived here in the late 80s.

But then you were in New York for the Daily Show. And so then I moved back here in 99. So the Kobe love fest that happened this year. Yeah. Well, here's the good news. Did you buy it? Were you buying or selling? Oh, here's the good news were you buying or selling oh here's the good well we we bonded over this the other day i didn't know the good news is

i don't actively play or hate it's just a waste of energy yeah he's but i like to talk basketball he's of the all-time greats he's one of the most flawed as from a basketball standpoint it's basically his shot selection and which results in a low field goal percentage so as as i say to people he's a better outside shooter than duane wade and lebron james they shoot 49 50 he shoots 44 and people the good news is there are media members that know that he's it's kind of a joke he seduces a lot of fans by making trick shots not trick shots but he he rather fall down with two guys draped on him for a three pointer than dump into Pau Gasol. Yeah.

And it's the it's the wow factor. It's all this kind of stuff. And I see through that because I'm a little more advanced. No, because he and he when he played basketball. Yeah. And so he takes these. And I don't I didn't even I don't read the Phil Jackson books, but I heard that he talked about Kobe in high school sabotaging the games.

He wants his furious comeback. I'm allowed to take 35-footers now. It's exciting. And so I think his, I never thought he made his teammates better. I thought there were actually times I thought he would jump in the air and make a cross-court pass to the open guy.

Hey, everybody, look what i just did you better make that shot like he would like exaggerate the pass to say you better make that shot i'm good and how about when he moped against phoenix remember when he moped against 2006 when he didn't make the playoffs after shack left yeah he just said i'm not i'm not yeah hot potato what do you what do you think of that i didn't like that i think kobe's had some bad endings i mean i i think he's one of the best 10 players of all time i don't have him in the top 10 i i i purposely made my top 10 not to have him in there you gotta but i have oscar robertson in my top 10 that's the guy that you might i have oscar robertson my top 10 i have him in west in the top 10 i don't have west in the top

10 i actually put i actually was talking to really no west in the top 10 i actually put bark i told bark i don't have barkley i told barkley my top 10 months and, I actually put Barkley. I told Barkley. I don't have Barkley. I told Barkley my top 10 ones. And he goes, do you have Shaq in there? And I said, yeah, I put Shaq. I don't like Shaq's game, but he was dominant. I had Shaq like 11th. Okay. See, the thing with Kobe is it was just so many years in a row. Like, if you just look at the first team all-NBAs, which I think is a really good indicator,

he's basically the best two-guard in the league for 14 years. Yeah. Well, he definitely captured the imagination of the fans because of his competitive nature. He's good like Michael Beasley in the summer league scoring 58. He's good at his last game scoring 60. And he's good at branding. Yes. He's good almost like how Madonna keeps reinventing themselves.

Kobe was good at reinventing himself. I see through him. But I wasn't a big Van Damme fan. No, I'm through him. But I wasn't a big Van Damme. No, I'm just kidding. I was trying to think of the... Oh, in 2010. See, I've always... 2010 finals.

No, just the end of the decade. Player of the decade. It was too easy. It's Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is the greatest. No question. And people were like, Kobe, Kobe. Anyways, I want to go back to my childhood.

Wait, can we say one Kobe thing? I want to go back to my childhood. Wait, can we say one Kobe thing? I want to go back to my childhood. We talked about this, but let's have the conversation again. Game seven. I gave my brother that information yesterday. My brother's in Chicago. Great guy. I'm going to reference him a little bit.

I have the greatest older brother in the world. The Kobe story I told you? You said, because my brother likes Thibodeau because he was in Chicago. Game seven, 2010. Thibodeau and he was in Chicago. Game seven, 2010. Thibodeau and Doc. Yeah. Their whole game plan. Double team him.

He will not pass the ball. Yeah. Kobe's going to want to be the hero. It's game seven. We're going to double team him the whole game and he'll keep shooting. And they almost won that way. Yeah. And then in the fourth quarter, he started passing.

I just don't think, I don't think it's just impossible to win game sevens on the road. And I, and even, so I, by the way, there's, I'll give you some of these opinions. He's done that. Just like the 74 Celtics. That's, I think that was the last time. I don't remember, but I will say this, that I do, and I don't want to be a curmudgeon. I see the flaws in sports. There are a few things I see.

And you do this for a living because you're immersed. So, so the Celtics lose game seven. The reason they didn't have games. I mean, I assume the Eastern Conference may have been better or maybe they never, they had some injuries during the year. So the Celtics lose game seven. The reason they didn't have game seven, I assume the Eastern Conference may have been better or maybe they had some injuries during the year. So that's the problem. It's a flaw. So here's my thing.

People will say, well, anything can happen in a one game. Like in a Super Bowl, it can be an upset, blah, blah, blah. But in a seven-game series, the best team always wins. I calmly disagree. It's not true. I think the best team does not always win in a seven game series that's my opinion i i thought the celtics were better than that boss uh perkins got her in game six yeah so so i still feel like the 2013 spurs were better than the 2013 heat that was one of the rare

times i felt like the wrong team won the finals and that game was over in game six they're up five and it was just totally i'm a popovich fan i didn't say it afterwards i said it when it happened why i know why he did it why are you putting tim duncan on the bench he's your best rebounder he because they had to shoot a three and your smartest player yeah you have to shoot a three timmy oh timmy can't guard the three-point line okay yes he can and he did it the next year against russell westbrook in the playoffs. Yeah. They were terribly shot at the backboard. But the reason they got two shots is because there were two rebounds.

They missed their three offensive rebound. Tim would have had that. And then I think LeBron made a three. And then Ray Allen hit the three on a rebound. You know what I'm saying? It was like a one in a thousand sequence. The question I would say is would the Spurs have won back-to-back? I don't know because they won next year. i actually don't think they would have i think it actually drove them and the other thing i wanted to ask you i i know that so i do not watch as much as i used to but i follow it like last night i just follow it i

watch some if i think miami has a chance i'm going to watch and then i'll i follow it on the computer and then i'll rejoin the game there's i've got things to do right you're busy i'm i'm going to watch and then i'll i followed on the computer and then i'll rejoin the game there's i've got things to do right you're busy i'm i'm cooking i'm i'm listening i'm not going to bore you with bill your art bill so i wanted to ask you wait oh well you're going to go to your childhood i'm going to go to my childhood in a second i'm going to go to my well i want to get to that but question for, because I know you watch a lot of stuff. You love passing. We love passing.

That's my, I grew up on Bird. Oh God, I got so many stories. Bird was the greatest passer I'll ever see in my life. Oh my God. And on the West Coast, everyone got to watch Magic. Each coast had their own passing guy. I'm going to tell you, I was going to ask you, because I really like that Sacramento passing team. Very fun one.

Underrated. And when the Spurs won, when they beat Miami. 14. Everyone was raving about their passing. It was so beautiful. It was so beautiful. How about 77 Blazers? Another one.

Everybody did this running down the court. So anyways, let me say something about passing. I was just going to ask you how great that passing of the Spurs was. And, you know, was it better than Sacramento's? I guess maybe. And I do have, we can get into it later as we jump. And I apologize for jumping around. But, you know, the three-pointer is becoming. We're going to set a fine.

When Cleveland plays the Warriors, if that's what happens, they're going to set a record for threes. And they're going to. They're trying to eliminate the dominant big man, Bill. It's all part of this equality thing. I'm kidding. Don't you think the AAU is eliminating the dominant big man? If you're a tall guy, you want to handle the ball,

or else you're not going to get it. And now we're at this whole generation of guys don't actually want to be big men. It's depressing. I'm allowed to name drop because I had a talk show. Please do. You had a talk show for a while. I was talking to John Cleese.

Yeah. And we had dinner together a few times. Yeah. I watched Monty Python growing up minnesota and uh somehow soccer came up oh and i said you know i just can't i can't get excited about where only one guy can use their hands a sport where only one guy the goalie can use their hands and i i said something to you basketball is i maybe i shouldn't use the word superior basketball is a superior sport and and there are superior athletes. And he was like, that's your American arrogance talking, and blah, blah, blah. How come it's so worldwide popular?

And I said, well, beer is pretty popular, too. I'll take the Pinot Noir, which Popovich drinks, by the way. Yeah, big wine guy. I was at, you know that restaurant, Bouchon in Beverly Hills? There's one up in Yountville in Napa, and they have a nice pewter bar and it's a curved bar and i said to the bar i was with my lady friend i said i i just there's no one there i said can i have uh can i have a pinot noir kind of like popovich just to see what if the guy even knows who the hell pop the bar the huge young guy you named your popovich i just said i'll have a pinot noir like popovich does. Just like my dad used to check in hotels when I worked at ESPN.

He goes, it's spelled like Kilborn, like the guy at ESPN, just to have a little fun. You know what I'm saying? So I just said Popovich. And the guy turned out to be a sports fan. He goes, Popovich was in here. He drinks also Chardonnay. I said, tell me the story. He said, it was this summer.

And I said, well, what was it like? He said, I said, are you in town? The bartender said, are you in town for business or pleasure? He goes, business. it was it was this summer and he and i and i said well what was it like he said i i uh i said are you in town the bartender said are you in town for business or pleasure he goes business i go what business he goes we just signed lamarcus altridge because he was in town yeah and he and he goes oh congratulations and he goes hi i'm pop he introduced himself i just i just i love pop now i disagree with pop and belichick two allegedly, two of the greatest hangs. And you would never know from the interviews, but like great dinner companions, apparently. God, should I get rid of my, should I get rid of my, I have to tiptoe around certain people.

So, so Goldie and Alex Hulkin, they're Patriot fans. And years ago, there is a thing, just to let you know, you know how some fans. Don't hurt my feelings. I'm not. Okay. I'm not. Okay. I'm going to have a little fun, and then we'll move on. Patriot fans are so... You're a very nice person.

No, Patriot fans are so thin-skinned right now about this DeFleck-ade thing. No, you already answered it. Yeah, we're so upset. I was going to say, you've already answered my... That there are certain... Like, the Yankees are hated, and the fans relish in that. They're fine with that. And even Boston Celtic fans, celtics are so dominant forever

even though their patches you know the 60s they relish in it oh my god are patriot fan sensitive i mean it's us against everyone yeah yeah yeah but here's a little just a little bit can i do a little joke got railroaded though can i do a little joke this is different i don't even care about that i i get bothered by when when when one super bowl convincingly please which is more than set which but but here's the thing but but but can i i'm gonna give you one this is a little bit of joke so people come up to me and they always ask me because i have no horse in this race uh who's a better quarterback um peyton manning or tom brady and i say well people come up to you and ask you this no I'm just doing

this I'm just doing this to manipulate just to manipulate okay and I said uh well teams win Super Bowls superior quarterbacks win regular season MVPs but here's what Peyton Manning does better than Tom and I'm gonna tell you what Tom does better than Peyton Peyton Manning is can make passes that Tom can't make surgical precision passes he's an offensive genius he's an offensive coordinator he is the greatest at passing certain passes no one else can make okay Craig what about Tom Tom Brady when it's fourth and inches he can do a quarterback sneak he is the big old sneaker is that obnoxious is that funny do you like that no he's he's the best i know but i was being a little we're very proud of it okay no i know i know you're teasing but we're also very proud you took that very well

by the way i did how's the mic is it okay like this i'm just i'm touching it so let me i want to know when you started when you fell in love with the nba because i started playing in minnesota in second grade my dad put up a basket in grade. He put up a bet. He wanted me to play my brother and I to play baseball. He loved Willie Mays. I couldn't, I mean, seriously, I couldn't, I couldn't throw. I threw like this, which is effeminate. And, but I, I took the bat. He taught me one thing. He said, I'll talk, teach how to shoot a layup left, jump off your left leg, put it up. And I took to it. And my brother was three years ahead of me. So he's playing basketball started in fifth grade organized basketball. So I'm in second grade and I'm watching my brother at practice and I'm dribbling on the sideline and the coach comes over

and says, why are you dribbling with your left hand? Are you left-handed? And I said, no, I can already, I can already dribble with my right. So I, I really took the back. I was very coordinated. And you asked me what kind of player I was. I, i i was six four by the time i had a growth spurt and a six inch growth from fifth grade i was five three then i was five nine in sixth grade and then i was six four by ninth grade and i was always a ball i was a point guard i apologize to you i was like a zach levine i was i wasn't athletic like that okay in my it's funny because uh our dear friend albert scooter vertino told i knew flip saunders very well sweet superman i love him and and i miss him so much and uh i hope i'm hoping ryan will be part of tom tibideau's staff and um albert scooter vertino said oh flip said you could do all the dunks and

all the dunks in the world there was a period period where I could jump. It was my junior year in high school, and I knew Flip for a long time. Yeah. And we played summer league at Augsburg College and everything. But I was an extremely good shooter and a very good passer, and I want to jump into passing. So like a Kirk Heinrich? Kirk is inconsistent. I used to say I was like a –

Better than Kirk Heinrich. I like it. Well, I'm a better shooter, but I'm sorry i i don't play defense bill okay i okay i have a bad back when i was a freshman at montana state yeah the coach said you have a body of a 42 year old the the defensive stance that i can't get it you're up right oh come on don't hurt me i mean think wally zerbiak okay i actually i actually know i was quick so i used to say i was like reed gettys or i was like pace manion those type of players but listen but listen i i this is what's interesting you know people talk about steph curry's great jump shot and he's

i love pure shooters yeah and he can take listen kobe took a lot of shots and he was not a shooter like steph so let let Steph take some force. It's the greatest bad shot taker ever. Exactly. And I remember people laughing when he missed, they had the highlight of him missing his whatever shot, the most misses in NBA history or whatever. And there was a fall away that was forced. Remember when Kobe did that?

We talked about Kobe. Yeah. At Memphis or whatever the hell it was. So as a player, so Montana State, my sophomore year, I was recruited to play two guard. I ended up playing small forward. But you see, they got a really good two guard named Jeff Epperle from Kalispell, Montana. He was supposed to go to the Grizzlies. Much great athlete.

He was a 6'4 white guy like Rex Chapman. I mean, wow. So he played ahead of me. And I was such a shooting lights out in practice that sometimes I think it threw him off because he only was like a 40% shooter. But he would have been better. And there's a bunch of stories. But in my sophomore year, that's when college basketball had the three-point line. Yeah, finally.

ACC, inside the top of the key, Mark Price pulling up. Oh, yeah, he was like a 19-footer. Absolutely. Hilarious. And Mark Price is one of my favorite jump shooters. People talk about Steph. They say, is he like Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf? One of the great lost NBA players, Mark Price.

He was stocked in, then he got hurt. I loved Price's jump shot. He's really good. And so we had the longest, if you're sitting down, Bill, I need you to sit down. We had the longest three-pointer in college basketball in the big sky, 22 feet. I played, I didn't play all the time. I was a benchwarmer. They kicked off, there was some disciplinary action.

They kicked off the starting point guard, senior, and the backup point guard midway through the season. I got my first start at Idaho, at the Kibbe Dome, Moscow, Idaho. They were a good team. They had a guy named Brian Kellerman. They made the tournament. I played 40 minutes. I had two turnovers. Because I'm really into...

I was eight for nine from the floor, four and three. I scored 20 points. We lost. I'm sorry. We lost. I bet that your P.E.R. must have been really good. It was a close game. Yeah.

I was... For the year, because I didn't play much, I was nine for 20 on three-pointers. And some of those were late in the game where I had to force them. Were you eligible for the Big Sky three-point title or no? I don't know if I had enough. Probably nine for 20 on three pointers and some of those were late in the game where i had to force them were you eligible for the big sky three-point title or no i don't know if i had enough probably not nine for i don't know but that's pretty good though but the past so the defense i very i like passing now this is kind of funny i used to say um did you ever see the pass i made at tim rule's training camp or not? No. Okay. It's on YouTube. It's fine. Okay. And I did a whole joke about the pass,

but I, you mentioned Larry and this is important. I, uh, there's a type of passing. I like, I made a pass that I had never made. The coach at Montana state who didn't, we,

we fired our coach after my sophomore, we got a new coach and I was again, a bench warmer and I played, I played a new coach and i was again a bench warmer and i played i played a little bit and i played a game where i was feeding the post and making some passes and this guy had a little problem with me the next day was hilarious the next day in practice he pulled everyone together and he he touched everyone's chest kilbourne's a better passer than you he's a better passer than you he's a better now he didn't want to play me because of defense but he wanted these guys to learn how to pass and he was trying to inspire the team and he was so pleased with my path i love

passing it's the greatest thing in the world and i had this joke where i've said there are only three jokingly in the world three people that have eyes in the back of their head and i'm one of them with larry and arvitas that was that was my joke i think i got the joke from a guy there was a there was a father who said that about his son out of high school. You're going to love this. He said, after Magic Johnson and after Larry Bird, Leo Routens is the best passer in the world. Leo Routens, Canadian. He was the player.

He went to Minnesota and then transferred to Syracuse. He was second in the Big Ten to passing to a guy named Magic Johnson. He played as a freshman. Leo Routens. He was the best player from Canada. He had a little bit a put you know the coos had the eyes in the back of his head yeah but i yeah yes yes i mean he literally i think he could see peripherally i think he could see at 90 degree angles and here's the thing that i find interesting about i love passing and i was thinking about this i had a conversation a few years ago with chris weber

and i said and you can disagree because I was starting a good pass. Well, yes, but I was stunned. And I said, well, Larry's the best passer of all, best passing forward of all time. He said, LeBron, you've never, have you not seen LeBron? And I was stunned and he looked at me and I said, maybe I'm being seduced by the touch passes. And you know what I thought?

I said, okay, maybe. And this is what it is. Stockton makes all the right passes and LeBron makes all the right passes. The other thing is this, this is the key. This is the detail that I love.

I love passing. I used to tell, I used to hang out with Nash and I had dinner. I would say, uh, I thought when you, I used to hang out with Nash and I had dinner. I would say, uh, I thought when you, I thought when you played with Dallas, you over dribbled when you circled underneath and probed.

Yeah. But now with Phoenix, I love it. It's an art form. Beautiful. But guys that move and dribble, they're creating angles. I like the guys like Arvitas and Larry who are stationary and do this.

Oh yeah. That's the touch passes. And there is a pass and do this. Oh yeah. Bill Walton did it too. The touch passes. And there is a pass that Larry made. Oh my Lord. It was in an all-star game. It was an offensive rebound and he jumped up and- Oh, you touch pass. I'm the touch tap.

Down to George Girvin. Yeah. Touch passes to me are so, that thing underneath them- Well, the other thing Bird and Magic did, they would know what pass they're going to make like three seconds before it happened. They would dribble to a spot to bring the guy over and then they'd be whipping it behind their head because they brought the guy over and now this guy was open. They saw it like a chessboard.

I don't think LeBron totally sees it that way. I think he's a great passer. Like, oh, you're open. I'm passing to you. But he's not like, this is a five second sequence that will lead to me passing. Yeah, when Weber said that, I almost felt like, oh God, I'm being a fan where I'm being seduced by how fancy Larry is. But I thought, you know, yeah, Stockton. I mean, I don't care if Stockton has more assists than Magic.

Magic's the greatest passer of all time. But in my opinion, I just think. So I was wondering, does LeBron make all the right passes? Okay, yeah, he's a great passer. But there's, I always called it it there's a contagion that happens with great passers where when you're such a good passer the other guys in the team start seeing the same things like bird made mikhail a good passer mikhail was a black hole and by 86 mikhail could like see dudes absolutely that's the final level for me the other basic thing is with passing is

if you make an entry pass to the side just entry pass and the guy's open he's not supposed to shoot the three-pointer or the 20-footer because get some ball movement yeah but and he might miss it because of that but when someone penetrates let's say ricky and dumps it out and makes a firm pass you're gonna probably make i say he's gonna make this because it was such a nice pass it's's, it's instinctive. The guy's going to really make this shot. You know what I'm saying? That's an underrated thing about passing is getting the guy, the ball in a spot where he's, it's all one motion shot, which most people don't realize like Westbrook passes and the guys like reaching backwards for it. I'm going to make excuses. Okay. Okay. What you just said, this is, this is the problem. You remind me of so many things.

Years ago, I was asked to referee a three-point shooting contest on TNT between Kenny Smith and Steve Kerr. Okay? How many years ago are we talking? 2004, when the Wolves had the Western Conference Finals or whatever. And I woke up, and I'll just say it was a late night. There was a time in my life where there was nothing better than after the show going to Mastro's and being with the late great actor. He sadly passed away.

Get Shorty. What was my buddy from Chicago? My buddy from Chicago. The great actor from Chicago. He was in Get Shorty. Why am I slipping? This is why I woke up too early. Come on. The guy with the mustache in... What's your buddy?

Dennis Farina. Dennis Farina. Sweetest man in the world. He sadly passed away. You went Get Shorty for Dennis Farina over Midnight Run? No. Midnight Run is... Yeah. I feel like he's Midnight Run's Dennis Farina. It is. It is. I just... That was the one that popped in. I've only seen Midnight Run. I've've never seen you oh he's funny he was at we would go to mastro's he would say park in the back walk through the kitchen and when that's when i used to like love drinking a martini

greatest thing in the world yeah and uh coasting on the air i'm kidding coasting through the second interview so you got it and he was wearing this i said he was wearing this sweater i said is that peach he goes it's salmon it's salmon you know it's not peach and uh i used to i used to call up on wait you were finishing it but you were at mastro's and there was a basketball there was a payoff for the mastro's thing what were we talking about passing we're talking oh steph kerr steve ker Steve Kerr and Kenny Smith three-point contest. I had a late night, and then I wake up in the morning. I go, God, I'm so glad.

I don't know how old I am. 42 or something. I'm so glad I don't have to play ball anymore. So glad. They call me. Scooter says, hey, Kenny can't make it. You've got to go up against Kerr in the three-point contest. And I'm like, oh.

Kenny can't make it? Yeah, Kenny's busy busy you know whatever uh so i'm bummed and i'm like so now i have i still have substance alcohol in my system i have to have a bad back and i'm going to so i start shooting around i'm wearing a sam cassell wolves jersey as of the year 2004 and steve he goes wow you can shoot. Because I can shoot a little bit. We're only going to do three racks, okay? The first rack on the baseline, left baseline, I miss all five.

And it's over. And then the next rack I made four out of five, which is kind of my spot. And then I made it two out of five. And he won, you know. And he says to me, this is funny. Because I know a little bit. I worked really hard on my shot. I could shoot.

I have great. Freddie Brown had beautiful. I like formreddie brown had beautiful form i like guys that have beautiful form okay and i thought mark price had a beautiful jump shot he says uh you gotta you might you might want to put your legs a little wider and i'm thinking i'm very particular about my legs it's like andrew wiggins when he's at the foul line i want his right foot to be slightly he has him parallel put your right foot slightly forward and i'm thinking well who's telling me this the guy with the widest stance in the nba his you know how kerr had the really exaggerated white stand

but what he said which was very and here come the excuses besides the late night he said have you ever shot off a rack before i said no i've never shot off a rack before he goes it's not it's an unnatural it's like a bad pass you're pulling it this way what you just said you got to you're pulling it across your body and going like this and that's an until you practice that you're not going to that's why you have to spread your legs no that was two different points one is spread your legs that was one of his point i thought i have a proper leg spread i've always felt i have a proper leg yeah so anyways you're right about that you got to put the ball there let me jump oh uh have you ever used this argument you know you say michael jordan's the greatest player of all time yeah absolutely of course larry's a better shooter

passer and rebounder have you ever yet used that because i've read it and it's true he's a better shooter passer and rebounder and of of course, Michael's the greatest. That's pretty good. You never heard that. No, I like it. It's the greatest. He is, he is the, he beats him in those three categories. That's pretty good.

How many 6'9 guys, how many 6'9 guys can shoot three-pointers like that? When you talk about shooters and some guys, what do you mean by a shooter? And well, I'm mainly talking jump shot and free throws, pure. But also, you want to add shooting. You want to talk about left hand and right hand around the basket. I mean, the guy.

Steph took his title, though. That's fine. As bumped. I don't care. He had a nice run with it. But even I would admit, Steph's the best shooter ever. I told you this the other day, but I love those guys at Indiana State. They said, yeah.

You know, becausery broke his fingers shooting his pointer finger on his right hand in college in a softball softball game right before the draft and he's like uh his friends at college yeah he shot pretty well in the pros but man you should have seen him in college he couldn't miss i always love that the two worst things that happened to him he broke his finger in a college softball game and then he hurt his back shoveling um because he was tarring his driveway in french lick and wouldn't pay people to do it because he didn't believe in paying manual laborers right and his back was never the same those were the two injuries that derailed his greatness yeah so when i was can we talk about the playoffs or no yeah i want to get rid of this because i

i want to get rid of this little note little to get rid of this little thing I have for you. Okay. Do your thing. I started playing in second grade. Did you play growing up? I did. Okay. Were you any good?

No. Okay. I mean, I was good, but not like good to. But you loved the game. I loved it. I peaked when I was like 12. Okay. I don't know why.

I grew six inches and my body never recovered from it. So my brother and I, we, uh, he was an older brother. He was into science fiction. I was into Monty Python and Fernwood tonight. He liked, uh, I remember once I slept through and two in the afternoon down in Minnesota, you have basements, they're, they're big rooms and they're cool. And in the summertime you have a TV room down in your basement. Basements are coming back in LA by tv room down in your basement basements are coming back in la by the way there's people are building basements yeah yeah i'm a little

scared of base journey to the center of the earth was on and i was probably 10 years old and i slept through it on the couch and he goes you're anemic you're anemic i've learned this because you're tired all the time and i learned the word anemic from my brother but we would change our names instead of working on our game basketball game we'd go to the court and we'd put on the wristbands and practice running out for introductions and giving each other five or fists and then here were the names he was satchel holland we basically take a name and a name into us he was satchel holland because we thought our name we were we like julius irving's name so much it's a great name and i was sweet i was sweetwater gilmore and my nickname was golden boy buttercup sweetwater gilmore i like

yes and at some point when doctor came to the sixers and my i was more in the doctor than my brother was but i because he was my brother was lone valdick dorn valdictorian valdictorian of his graduating class of 500 which they will not do now. They will name salutatorians. But he was very, very bright guy and wasn't all immersed into basketball. He actually cared about his academics. Good kid. Great brother. Great human being. Handsome man. High jump record. I could go on and on. Great calves. i don't have calves he has great calves brown okay he wrote he wrote four dr j limericks when i was maybe in eighth grade or whatever it was and i remember two of them i'd like to read them to you now i couldn't i call i sent him i said do you have do you remember

all four he goes i don't remember all four i mean these are just dr j limericks from a teenager in minnesota it's i mean did you do the limericks or not i feel like it's cliche to read dr j limericks from a teenager in minnesota it's i mean did you do the limericks or not i feel like it's cliched to read dr j limericks on a pot oh no it's not this has never happened before it does does it happen all the time no it's never happened is this good or bad this is good because i can't wait for your dr j limerick because now what now what does that mean because when as a kid it was kind of fun is it are they because i know it's fun by the way i'm not a fan of 2016 it's fun i'm not a fan of limericks i i think they're boring i'm not and i also have a thing about puns are the lowest form of humor blah blah blah but this was when i was a kid and my brother

i think it was because i got my brother to talk i made people talk about dr j the baryshnikov of basketball i made i i was obnoxious like i'm now obsessed this is kind of if you knew the sitcoms i did not see i've never seen friends i really i i didn't really watch seinfeld i didn't watch seinfeld i'm obsessed with i told you the other day frazier yeah and i watched it after the fact and i watched it after interviewing jane leaves daphne moon the beautiful daphne moon so i was really into dr. J. So my brother does. There once was a man from the sky. The Philadelphian said he could fly.

He slam dunked his way through the NBA. The doctor from Roosevelt High. They're nice. Listen to these words. This is the only other one I know. There once was a man named Irving and all manner of jams was he serving. He started his stuff and that was enough for his high wire act was unnerving. That's my big brother.

I love my big brother. He's such a wonderful human being. Did you watch introverted by the way? He's an introvert, but he's a limerick specialist. Yes. And so he was a software engineer. He goes down to rice university where Paul Pierce,

what's his name? Pierce. What was the guy with the shooter? Ricky Pierce. Ricky Pierce. Tommy Kramer. And he goes down to Rice and he says, I'm going to walk on the team. And I said, OK.

And he does really, he's a much better, he's a better athlete than I am, but was not as good a basketball player. He was 6'3 and he played post in high school, which a lot of guys do. better he's a better athlete than i am but was not as good a basketball player he was six three and he played post in high school which a lot of guys do so he he plays and he but he doesn't he says i i gotta my academic load was too much i had to i had to drop out of the team but i was doing well and mike schuler was the head coach so one day he's playing one-on-one he no he's in the gym by himself shooting just he's just you know he's doing class he's shooting by himself there's a nondescript white guy that comes down and says hey do you want to go one-on-one and my brother's good one-on-one he's a good defender and he's he's good he's a very he's and they play

to like 11 and they have to go to extra they have to be like 13 11 this guy beats my brother and my brother is kind of impressed like wow you're pretty good he goes did you play in college he goes yeah i played at south carolina he goes what do you do now? He goes, I play for the Rockets. I'm Mike Dunleavy. Wow. Mike Dunleavy, but years before he ruined the Clippers. Yeah, yeah. Although he claims he didn't.

Yeah. So anyways, I'm taking a break now. I'm just going to drink some water. All right. Let's take a quick break from Craig to talk about Blue Apron, which has been a huge asset in my house the last couple days because my wife has been using Blue Apron to make our dinners. Blue Apron knows that when you cook with incredible ingredients,

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So far this week, I've had steak and I've had chicken. That kind of tasted like the tiki marsala chicken that I like. It was a little variation of it. It was delicious. My kids liked it. It was all great. And you know what? Delivery is too expensive.

So just use Blue Apron. Blueapron.com slash BS. Blue Apron, a better way to cook. And since we're here, I want to talk about our buddies at MailChimp. They helped us launch an incredible newsletter for The Ringer that we've been updating three to four times a week.

It's been a huge success for us. We are over 200,000 subscribers and it's been an awesome place to showcase all of our writers before we launch. So if you're just getting started like we were, or if you're building a growing business like we are, I want you to know that MailChimp makes it super easy to connect with your customers and to sell more stuff. It's free to get started. There's no expiring trial. There is no credit card required. Thanks to MailChimp for helping me and everyone at The Ringer build our audience because we are launching a website this summer.

Go to MailChimp.com. Check out everything they have to offer and also go to TheRinger.com and subscribe to our newsletter because it's really good. Back to Craig Kilborn. All right. So I have some questions for you. Is there an NBA player that you would trade? You could have this guy for the next 12 years.

Not over Carl Towns. No. So nobody? Nobody. Curry? No. But here's the thing. I wanted to ask you.

Say to the T-Wolves, we've won two titles with Curry. We want Towns. Curry for Towns. You say no. So, absolutely. I two titles with Curry. We want Towns. Curry for Towns. You say no. So, absolutely. I would never. No. So, I...

And the other thing is, I'm realistic about the Wolves. It's fun. You have a good coach and a franchise player. I think you should be unrealistic. You might be more... It's hard to win a championship. You said on the sidewalk outside of Compton the other day, you said they're going to win the championship.

And I said, come on. No, I think they're the next great young team. OK, I really do. Now, do you know when they were struggling this year, what one of their major flaws was? And it changed after the All-Star break a little bit. You know what one of their big flaws is? The coach? No.

Well, no, they don't shoot. They're one of the worst teams in three pointers. Right. They need a shooter. And that's where I kind of a little irritated with the three-point shot becomes so important now. And I would much rather watch Carl. I think it's more difficult

than Steph Curry shooting a three-pointer or Klay Thompson. And those guys have great jump shots. And that's why they win. They have the two best shooters in the league. And Draymond Green's okay.

He's very good. Yeah. But I think it's harder. Carl Towns shooting a left-handed jump hook is more difficult than a three-pointer in my opinion over a defender but that's okay or when carl towns does the fakes the jump shot sweeping into the lane c-web my body's going in nine different directions and then it's a finger oh yes i tried to demonstrate that for you in the sidewalk outside

of content he is he he is uh he is better than I thought he'd be. And I love Andrew Wiggins. I actually think he had the best season by a number one pick as a rookie that I can remember. LaRue Martin. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

He was a boss. LeBron was amazing in his rookie year for what he was. And I think Towns, that was an amazing season. He went into Golden State and was the best player in that overtime against the best regular season team of all time. What do you think of Wiggins, though?

Too passive? A little too passive? I love him because he has Carl Towns, and the crunch time, he takes it to the rim. And I don't care if he's passive. Obviously, if he had to carry a team himself, but it might be a pretty good marriage. Well, that's the thing.

If he's the third best player on a title team, that's perfect, and he might be good enough to be the second best player, but I'm not sure. I think he – well, it depends on how – it's kind of funny. Someone said he – I don't know if he's 6'7 or 6'8. Someone said he is the worst 6'8 rebounder in NBA history. He doesn't rebound a lot. It's true.

He's not active enough for my liking. I'm not worried about him because he is— Very good defensive player, though. Yes, and he had a better rookie year defensively than he did the second year. He needs to shoot threes. He needs to spend this summer just taking 1,000 threes a day until he gets better at them. You're right, and he did that. After the All-Star break, he started hitting his threes a day until he gets better at them and he he you're right and he did that and he after the all-star break he started hitting his threes i don't think you understand

what's going to happen with you with tibbs i think you know but deep down i don't think you really know it's you're going from like you know i'm better than i you're going from like an eighth grade elementary science teacher to like a nobel peace prize a Nobel prize winning Harvard professor who like figured out nuclear fission. That's the difference in coaching that you're about to have. I, I'm, I love that we have them, you know, I'm better than I, I, I'm not worried about him at all. Um, I I'm worried. I mean, the way the game has changed, I think the three-point shot is becoming too important. Yeah, but you're going to be able to get shooters. What's that?

You're going to be able to get shooters. People are going to want to play with Towns and Wiggins and Tibbs and all these guys. I don't know where Levine fits in. I'll tell you the good news about Zach Levine, and you actually said it the other day because I asked you. I don't know if you remember what you said. I said, what do you think of him?

I said he was a sixth man. Yes, and he is, and that's what I believe. I said, what do you think of him? Because I said he was a six man. Yes. And he is. And that's what I said. He's like offense off the bench. He has a really pretty jump shot and people get obsessed with his dunking. And you also said it made a good point. He can get to the rim and finish. It's amazing that I go, wow, he actually finished on that. He likes to go in the traffic.

So his problem, which is a little scary, he's a little like John Starks, he'll just start taking shots that you say, that's a force, that's not a good shot. Because he's reactive. He's instinctive. And he can get a shot off any time. But when he played point, it was ugly. And there were things that were said. It wasn't his fault. But that's not what he's, you know.

He did not start at UCLA. I know. And he left after a year. Would you like Serge Ibaka on your team? Because I feel like that trade makes sense. The lottery pick for Serge. Because Serge has become expendable in this Spurs series. To be honest, when I said I did limited research,

I saw you say somewhere that. Twitter. So I looked him up. He's only 26. Yeah. I like that. I don't think you can play him and Adams together. Because Thinabaka has to play outside the paint.

And that takes away all of his athleticism. On your team with talents, he'd be amazing. Plus, you have a lottery pick. That's the other thing. You might win the lottery. Might get Ben Simmons. Do you like Ricky, by the way? I do like Ricky.

And I think he's a very good defensive player and a very good passer. The last two games. His shooting is atrocious, and it's gotten slightly less atrocious, but it's still atrocious. Yeah, he makes his free throws, and he makes some shots. I love him. I love watching him. He actually, the last two games against the Warriors,

at home it was a close game we lost, and the one we won in overtime at Golden State, it was like, oh, my God. Steph really six for 20 and six for 17 or whatever it was. He plays good defense. And he's always the top one or two in steals. Do you blame Kobe for maiming his knee? It was an aggression. Accidental.

I don't know. But this is what I say about Ricky. When Rick Adleman was there, we had kevin love we were 40 and 42 one year and i say we i can say we absolutely kind of it makes it 100 makes it more personal and uh you know he didn't score in the fourth quarter and kevin love could be double team blah blah blah and they bring in berea who could score but now it's you know and i said to people okay fine if you guys want to trade ricky if get a better point guard you better get a better point guard they tried to sign eric bledsoe at one point if you can get a better point guard well i'll let i'm not worried about it ricky is really i

really enjoy watching him and if he gets traded this is because i'm a basketball fan first an nba fan first just like i watch kevin love on theiers. I'm happy for Kevin Love. So you're happy for KG? He's extremely. That was one of my questions. As I said to the great Jimmy Jam, who's KG's brother-in-law, I said I might be a bigger K at the time. I want KG to win a ring. He's done his job in Minnesota.

Let him go. You know, win a ring. And it's not easy because KG said there's no guarantee I win a ring. This is before he went to Boston. And he said, oh, okay. They talked him into going. He goes, I'll play with Steve Nash a ring. This is before he went to Boston. And he said, oh, okay. They talked him into going. He goes, I'll play with Steve Nash and Phoenix. Then he ended up going to Boston.

And there was a commercial I remember finding out about you. You've seen that commercial? Yeah. They show that in Boston. Yeah. And they KG. KG's walking through that door. I mean, we love him.

We love KG. And what was weird is we had the other way that it goes when Ray Bork got traded to Colorado because he couldn't win a cup with the Bruins and everyone in Boston rooted for Ray Bork. Finally, we get to talk hockey. I waited 40 minutes to start talking hockey. Where have you been?

I'm talking fan proxy championships. So KG wins a title and you feel a little bit... I went to a hockey game. Are you really a hockey fan? I had to play in Minnesota I could skate backwards, that's all you need to know skate backwards, wow, Tirico took me to a Hartford Whalers game that's right, the whale

and I said, can we go to Ruth's Chris Steakhouse first, I just wanted to and I said, who's and I sit there, and this is what I love about hockey fans, I have buddies that are hockey I have a buddy who's a and I just sit there and, and this is what I love about hockey fans. I have buddies that are hockey. I have a buddy who's a Ranger fan and they, because I like passing and I, and they, they get so excited when there's a fight. That's when they get the most excited.

They're pugilists, you know? So I'm at the game with, and I said, cause I don't follow high. He said, who's number eight. He goes, why? I go, I just, I just liked the way he plays. He's it's Jeff Sanderson. He's the best pastor and fastest skater on the team. go okay eyes in the back of the head yeah i remember jeff sanderson was that with torico that's enough hockey enough hockey um let's do can we do a

little vikings or not you can save it for one second because you set me up with torico yeah um you're basically your rookie class in br. When'd you get to Bristol? 94? In the mid-90s. And the guy... So, Tariko, Eisen, who else? No, Rich was not there. Not there? Now, listen.

They would... The new guy would take in another new guy. So, you had a person... Like, when I... Brett Haber came, I was the last guy. So, I had to take him under my wings. Love Brett Haber. Get good Brett Haber service. So, Brett Haber came. I was the last guy, so I had to take him under my wings. Love Brett Haber. Get good Brett Haber service.

So Brett Haber's in your class. But he wasn't there. When I got there, the nicest guy in the world was the preceding new guy took me under his wing. Mike Tirico. Carl Ravitch. Carl Ravitch. Great guy. One of the sweetest guys around.

Yeah. So Ravitch, Tirico, you, Brett Haber. I'm going to tell a controversy. i don't know if this is controversial because it's been so many years this is a basic point about broadcasting yeah i find broadcasting wonder it's very i find it very easy okay that's why so many people can do it's not difficult yeah okay but it's you know you have a person different guys like lawyers like howard cosell whatever become broadcaster so ravi we working together, and he's the greatest, and I'm goofing off, and I write these silly lead-ins,

and I honestly didn't want to do too much on camera because I'm this, who the hell is this blonde, pretty boy guy? So, I'd save most of my stuff where I could hide behind the highlights and go, oh, resourceful, look at Steve Kerr, all this. Like, I'll tell you a catchphrase i was telling akim elijah one was uh this is not i'm jumping but akim elijah one was out for with anemia for a couple of weeks anemia reference of the podcast yeah and i and again my brother my brother how i called i was going into work and i said he's anemia he goes oh he's coming back tonight i got

the you know i'm gonna watch the rockets i do the lead and i say he's out with anemia for two weeks so keem's in the game now let's he's back after anemia we go to the highlights first quarter keem oh the red cell count is up they give him the ball oh hemoglobin like she's ridiculous things but here's what i wanted to say this controversy so ravage goes and he goes they're taking me off sports center you're gonna be working with somebody else i go oh come on buddy he goes i'm doing baseball tonight and i shut up i go oh interesting you're excited he goes i'm an nba fan ravage no i don't want to get him in trouble because my point is it's just like a reporter if you don't know a story you can research it and immerse yourself and he immersed himself in baseball and he's the

greatest he's the greatest. He's the man, you know what I'm saying? But it's not, in other words, if you had to cover something, like if we're going to send you, we send you an assignment right now in Europe to cover,

you can do it. The Euros. If you want to do it, if you want to, of course, I don't want to do certain things. You started like at the 2am. Yes,

sir. Cause I remember that's usually when I got home in the mid nineties. Yeah. And, uh, the 2am wasm yes sir because i remember that's usually when i got home in the mid 90s and uh the 2 a.m was always a throwaway sports center and then eventually started becoming a really fun sports center and they would rerun it the next day and yeah that's my buddy gus was working with you the whole thing you started experimenting boy was he funny yeah he was great nice guy so he was a dr j fan by the way Were you thinking when you got there, I'm here for a couple years and it will lead to this? Or you're just thinking this is great.

If you're sitting down when I was in college. Yeah. You know, there was a part of me that said, oh, I love basketball. I want to do maybe I'll be like Chick Hearn. I don't. Some of these guys can't do play by play I'm average or below average you know that's why Tirico he can do studio and play by play

but in college I was like secretly you don't say this I like Johnny Carson and I also like Cheers so you wanted a talk show I almost didn't go to ESPN my buddies wanted me

to do stand-up when i came at the late 80s i used to go to the comedy store and watch argus hamilton jackson purdue these are names but and then and then dice clay was there at the beginning and then i saw jim carrey before he did in living color this is in the late 80s and he would not do any jokes he would sit there and do 20 different now now here's david bowie fame fame he would morph into these different impressions and uh i decided and it was he i'm looking back i had no does i thought about stan i used to go to the ice house in pasadena watch guys talk and the guy who ran the ice said sad letterman he didn't like stand up he like hosting the night, blah, blah, blah.

And I had too much respect for the, they said, don't do standup to, to do something else. Do it. Cause you want to be, you want to do standup. Right. It's in your DNA. And it's, and it's, and I, I have the, what I consider the appropriate amount of respect for it. But I would say that there are some people that aren't that, that you're not funny just because you do standup.

You have guts to do it. And you're not charismatic just because you do standup. Cause some guys to do it. And you're not charismatic just because you do standup. Because some guys are not that charismatic or not that funny. They just do it because they love it. That's good. Doesn't mean you're as funny as Jeff Van Gundy. Yeah. How funny is that guy, by the way?

I mean, it's pretty amazing, right? He's broadcaster funny. Yeah. It's like when athletes are athlete funny, but they're not actually funny. Well, it's a thing where... You know what I mean. Well, Barkley's funny, but these guys...

Like, Barclay's funny funny. Yeah. I actually think Van Gundy's funny funny, but I could be wrong. You think Van Gundy's funny funny? Yeah. I think he's funny. But I like guys... There's an aspect to comedy where I think it's too desperate.

I like it when it's a little cooler. I like it when you're like... I was going to say Churchill. A world leader who's very... Like, Churchill had all these all these, he got on a boat once and he goes, enough with this. I like it like an Italian boat. And it was like, it's not women and children first. He goes, good. That's ridiculous. Like he did all these, uh, and you know, you know, all the famous Churchill stuff, right? You know, you'd be ugly, you know, you're drunk. Yes. But in the morning I'll be sober and you'll be still be ugly, blah, blah, blah. But, uh, so yeah, I, I, I wanted to do,

I almost didn't do, I, I, I, I, I used, I didn't want to do the daily show for very long. I just wanted to do a network talk show. And then of course, where I'm a little controversial, I walked away because it was dysfunctional or whatever reasons it's going to be in the book i'm going to save it for the book what book the book that i write one day you're not writing it though no i just have anecdotes anecdotes well i remember gus you know gus and i are really close especially back then we used to talk all the time because you didn't have email you actually had to call somebody and have conversations with them um and he would i'd be like this kilburn is fucking great on these

oh my god you can swear this would be like he just he's just like he wants to have a late night show he's not gonna be here very long yeah so that was fun and and i'm trying to think of uh oh you you but isn't it better if i don't ask you why you're not on tv anymore because i like the mystery that you've created about yourself i would you know what i would say to you if you ask me i'd say it's a story for another day i would probably just say that can i great i heard your podcast you just kind of pop in and out everybody's like wait a second also even when i saw you i was like oh my god would you be nice to the guys i got i got okay i got some requests well colin and these guys were asking me to do their show and i love they're

all great i just don't want to i just this was this was a baby step and i like this i don't see any cameras i don't think i don't even know what a podcast is a fluke we ran into each other i want someone to walk me through a podcast because my brother and i used to do this with tape recorders after watching monty python i wanted to ask you i heard you the other day on your podcast with rapaport with rapapappaport. Good energy. Great energy from Rappaport. I heard him mention he's excited about David Blatt, and then he said other things. That was great.

Okay. I'm not disagreeing with you. Yeah. Eddie Murphy. You said Eddie Murphy. What was your thing? He's the greatest or what? I said Eddie Murphy was the greatest SNL cast member

of all time he was the only one who was actually overqualified to be on the show okay and I think Will Ferrell was a close second

but I think Eddie Murphy when he was on the show the entire time I felt like he was too famous and too gifted to just be on a television show

it was always clear he was going to do something much bigger one of the more entertaining topics to me is to listen to people. And my big calm disagreement is with human nature and instincts in general, overrating a Kobe or there'll be a championship team every year. If you expand the NBA by 10 teams, there's still going to be a championship team.

It does not mean it's a good championship team. So you hate recency bias. Yes. Whatever that term, there's a new term. Oh my God. I was, I was telling a friend of mine, there was a term, this, this buddy of mine Yes, whatever that term. There's a new term. Oh, my God. I was telling a friend of mine, there was a term, this buddy of mine, he was at a job for 20-some years at a newspaper. And he's a big liberal, but he said he hates political correctness.

And he said, this woman quit, she says, is so heteronormative. And he had not heard the term before. I don't even know what that means. Well, you can put it together. You can figure it out. But I wanted to say, I'm entertained by opinions. That's why I get back to the, who's the biggest whiner in the NBA?

And one of the more entertaining things is when people break down people's talent. Yeah. And now it is fun when it's Prince, but there is something beyond talent. Like there are more talented actors than Clint Eastwood, but I love Clint Eastwood. There are movie stars that, you know, are movies.

I like James Spader. Okay. I just have to present. So Eddie Murphy is extremely talented and he's also saying, you know, he also did a party all the time and he did the raw, he did the raw standup thing. I have a favorite that a lot of us, you know how all of us loved Letterman? Yeah. Letterman's my favorite.

I'm maybe two years older than you. No, Letterman's my dude. A couple years older. All of us loved Letterman. My favorite is Johnny Carson, then Steve Allen, then Dave Letterman. There's one guy that is the funniest guy and our favorite guy of all time from SNL. And we're just like, he's the man. Who is it?

Who is that, Bill? It could be Will Ferrell. It could be John Belushi. Wow. I'll wait over here. Could be Dana Carvey. You're having a... Who is it?

Bill Murray. Okay. Wow. Wow. So years ago at ESPN, i've told this story before there were some youngins carl ravage i think steve levy who uh who said well chevy chevy chase is funnier than bill murray well that's not true and uh dan patrick and keith and i we're like no but that's okay and i asked a question bill by the way later called me yeah but i'll tell you i asked them do you are you familiar with the lounge singer on snl he goes no

i never saw him do the lounge singer oh so you don't know what you just saw caddyshack when he was the groundskeeper is that all you know bill is the man he's the greatest the funniest man ever and i got to interview him a number of times but how much of that opinion is colored by what he did after he left the show i was just talking purely for the show oh i i yeah i okay that's you guess what bill you probably watched snl with eddie murphy i only saw a little bit. I didn't watch it. I'm just saying, Bill... I was an only child, so I saw all the SNLs.

So Bill is... This is kind of funny. The greatest thing he does is his appearance on Letterman. I mean, his appearances on Letterman are great. He's had a 40-year run of just being consistently, charismatically funny, which Eddie Murphy really, by the early 90s, just wasn't funny anymore.

But one thing I'll say is he doesn't do real he doesn't do a lot of comedy movies now he obviously right does dramatic stuff and Jim Jarmusch with the long setup shots and stuff you know the independent stuff but a lot of comedians that happens where they've just run out of ways to make funny films and they start going like I thought Bill Murray was amazing in Lost in Translation. I thought he should have won the Oscar. And he wasn't funny in that. He was understanding. Yeah, he's got a couple different personalities

and that was one of them. Yeah, he's... It's so funny. Who was the best guest you had on the CBS show? Like the one that you were the most fanboy-ish about? The only guy I got nervous about was Clint Eastwood. Really? Because he was taller than you?

No, he's not taller. Do you have an inch on him? Yeah. I'm not going to tell it. I'll tell it off. I could tell it. My greatest story is a Clint Eastwood story. I'll tell you off air.

But then you'll repeat it. But maybe I'll save it for another time. It's a great story. Great story. That is the all Eastwood story. I'll tell you off air, but then you'll repeat it. But maybe I'll save it for another time. It's a great story. That is the all-time tease. I apologize. Is it an offensive story? I have to work blue, but not very much. So why can't you just tell it?

It's the greatest story. Everybody's been listening for an hour. You can't tell them a Clint Eastwood story? So, by the way, one of the five questions was, okay, finally show us. I want you to squint because it's sunny and then squint because you're mad. He's squinting. And he's like, I paid a lot of money to squint.

I'm not going to do it here for free. He said that? Yeah. That's great. I give him a heads up. I give people a heads up sometimes on the five questions. Letterman never came on, did he? No, no.

Did you ever interact with Letterman? I'm glad you asked because this is for you. I'm handing this to you. Thank you. I'm handing this to you. I appreciate it. So I like to call him Tortured Dave, and he was the greatest, blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He picked you? Yeah, yeah. I don't think you get the job unless he says, it's okay, you can give it to that guy. Yeah, I would take pride if someone says I'm not his cup of tea. I would enjoy that because I Johnny is cool and smooth. And my dad, my dad said that my dad was a big Carson fan.

Then it became a little bit of a dork festival. Yeah, that's my dad. Those are my dad's words, not mine. But he called me once. Remember, Ray Romano said, does he call you? Did he call you after your first show? I said, yeah, it was a quick call. Good job. Good luck. show? I said, yeah. It was a quick call. Good job.

Good luck. Blah, blah, blah. Then he called me a few months later. And it's very funny. And he called me for something else. And Rob Burnett, who's the guy that I dealt with, was surprised that David called. And we were having a little trouble with our executive producer. And just as an interesting note, because I do have a lot of anecdotes on this stuff.

They were saving money where they hired a guy who was both the head writer and the executive producer. And just as an interesting note, because I do have a lot of anecdotes on this stuff, they were saving money where they hired a guy who was both the head writer and the executive producer. And I thought he would have been great as just the head writer. He's a very funny guy. I'm not going to mention his name, but we had to let him go, blah, blah, blah. And I was influenced by some certain executives. So, and that's why Dave called because he knew he was making a change. But I remember Rob had kind of handpicked this guy, but they were saving money by having a dual role. And it's not easy to be creative and then also have the boring ass meetings where you have to talk about what we're going to put in the break room,

which is almost like, so Rob's, this is a joke that Rob goes, Craig, there are two types of executive producers, okay? There's the kind like me who's the writer and the other guys like so-and-so. Dave, we need a new carpet around your desk now like like these guys he's the kind of dismissing yeah you're not you're not right so Dave calls me because and he only called because he wanted to know he wanted to see how everything was going because he knew I was making a change and at the end of the phone call I said to him listen I like you're loyal to people that's a great quality i'm just trying to find people i want to be loyal to and he says fine great but at the beginning of the phone call

because it was and i remember telling my dad he goes that's an 11 minute phone call you know this is how dave opened you know he goes how you doing yeah yeah whatever happened to christian laitner that was his opener because he knew i liked basketball he must have interviewed christian laitner he was like what's up maybe he was like there's another pretty boy what happened to Christian Laettner? That was his opener? Because he knew I liked basketball and he must have interviewed Christian Laettner. He was like, what's up? Maybe he was like, there's another pretty boy. What happened to him? And I said, well, he was drafted third by the Wolves and he had a decent career. Great college player.

He actually made the, he goes, he did an all-star. He goes one year with Atlanta. He made the all-star team or the all-star game. But isn't that funny that he, you know, he he also he also mocked leno on the phone call it was yeah i was remembering i'm not surprised by that yeah he goes you know let me tell you about jay he's the kind of guy that would help you with you you got a flat tire he'd stop and help you with a flat tire but um yeah so that was uh that's pretty did you call him when you decided to leave the show yes i did i had that How'd that go? Well, it went well.

I thanked him for the job. I said, thank you, sir. And I said, listen, it's just me. I'm like, I'm peripatetic like Larry Brown. I used to basketball. I'm looking for the perfect thing. But it was, it was, I had 15. I don't want to get into it.

15 writers, 15 writers at the daily show. We have, it was just a smaller show. It was good. The problem is i can only really share that decision with myself some people find it admirable but if i say it was such an easy decision so cathartic escaping the dysfunction but you know i will say this because i can kind of transition our friend jimmy kimmel and i ran into him uh a few times and i there are things that i he likes you yeah I really don't miss certain things

and I said Jimmy I said Jimmy I uh I was at some charity event you had to host and you did a great job tell me you you you hate doing those because it's extra work it's extra work now I obviously has a bigger staffing but hosting award shows and actually he says I hate it and he goes god I just did one and I bombed in front of Bill Gates I I mean, it's really a lot of extra work. There are things you have to do to promote your show. That's a real headache. And, uh, also the thing that all, all these guys talk about is, which is different, which are corporate events, corporate events. I've heard Letterman complain. He goes, I did a corporate event. He was talking to a guest. He goes, I, they're really hard. Sometimes they can, you can just be the funniest man in the world and i did a corporate event he was talking to a guest he goes it was i they're really hard sometimes they can you can just be the funniest man in the world and bomb at a corporate event yeah and then you can have and i've done a few and i actually the last one i

did it went well and this is the reason it goes well it was up in san francisco my favorite city and it was for uh it was for some uh beverage the wine company that did beverages or whatever and it was a beverage company and I was they wrote this and they said and they write inside jokes for all the people and that's when it you know so if you do a

Bush joke or a Clinton joke that they've already heard so you do joke about Bob on the second floor oh my God that's hilarious and I just remember I took my lady friend up there and about Bob on the second floor. Oh my God, that's hilarious. And I just remember, I took my lady friend up there and the thing was called, it was in a little conference room

and I did it the whole day. They kept putting people in, they flew them in and it was like 30 people and it was called the Daily Spill. You know, the wine spills. It's like that. But all I know is, this is why my you go there they

put us in the penthouse of the saint uh the saint francis and union square and and you don't have to put down your credit card and it's all that kind of fun stuff and it went and they pay you well and we get to go out and eat and the thing and it was just a and it sometimes they go well sometimes the corporate event but i i was i I ran into Jimmy, and there's a headache. And I didn't like disposable comedy in late night. Now, it's not as disposable now. But when I would write a... You have to do...

You do the four monologue jokes. You do the... In the news, whatever. You do a desk chat. The kind of keeping the trains moving part of the show. Yeah, and if I crafted out a desk chat that I liked on Monday, I was like, okay,

I want to, I want to enjoy that for a few days. No, you got another show Tuesday. You got to do another thing. You have to keep churning out stuff. And I like, that's why,

are you a Frazier fan at all or not? I liked it when it was on, but it's sad that I'm talking about it now. It's kind of sad, right? I just think it's, it's, I love that. Well, so, I mean, one of my weird theories, and I'm known to have a lot of weird theories,

I don't think it's a normal life to host a late night show. Because I worked for Jimmy for the first 18 months he had a show, right? Right. The grind of that day in, day out. Not just putting together the show and it's over and then, oh, got another one tomorrow. And you got to keep doing that. But also just having to have that energy

and knowing every day you're playing in the show, you're the point man, you're doing everything. And then also separate of that, at five o'clock, I have to be on TV. I have to perform.

And it's almost like you got to rise to the occasion like an NBA player. Then you crash. Then you got to do it again and again and i i think it's a really hard process it is and it's so i think it's freaking grueling i remember in local tv in monterey it was the 110 mark and i got my start up there and i also i'd interned in minneapolis and the guy the sports caster said all you have to do once a day five minutes of sports just be up for five minutes that's not the way he explained it yeah you gotta be that's not difficult five minutes do it so you do these shows and um again the best thing

is the writer's room where you're yeah the camaraderie is you're talking i mean yeah throwing ideas around oh my god comedy writers can't make each other laugh yeah it becomes like it's like a climbing a ladder to see who can go higher i remember i was doing five questions for larry flint yeah alex sulkin starts throwing larry flint impressions right you cross every line yeah it's the best it's great and and he does voice sulkin does voices he does a great gregory peck and all this kind of fun stuff and uh so so yeah that's the best part but the i don't miss it at all but when you mentioned you crash where I I had friends visit me and they wanted to see me

for dinner after the show and I was I did but I was absent because I wanted to I either want to be by like a zombie yes and then you know Robert I would say yeah Dave couldn't really really get out of that until 2 p.m. Saturday you know that's when you kind of rest and you sleep and maybe I can

breathe a little bit well that's why I can you have to make a lot of decisions i made so many it was like i remember once i said because i was making a lot of decisions and i was hands-on and uh i don't know i'm just sure that six months and i walk i'm walking after i'm after rehearsal and uh i actually turned mine off only because i'm responsible but i the adjacent studio was uh the adjacent studio was an abc show yeah politically incorrect with bill maher yeah and they painted on the wall they had painted ever since i was there politically incorrect bill maher on the entrance on the on the wall entering the studio doors in the hallway i walked it every day. And so I have my head down because I'm working on all this stuff. Sebastian, the asexual icon, Yombo name, all this blah, blah, blah. And one day I said, God,

why? Why don't I? Why don't I have a painted thing here? Late, late show, you know? Now, my point is, I wish I didn't have to come up with it, but that's fine. So I went to the line producer. You're smiling. And the line producer goes, that's a fair point, though. Yeah, that's a good question. And then, of course, it happened. They did it.

But you had to mention it. Yeah, but that's OK. But I want to make this a beautiful point. One of my favorite lines in life. And this is the way I do. You ever see the John Wooden documentary on hbo yeah of course he came out from the midwest yeah he came out from the midwest with three things his father told him drink deeply from good books make each day your masterpiece and don't complain i love don't

complain that's one of my favorites don Don't Complain. It's a good one. Just leave. What's the time we're at right now? No, we're pretty much done. I do think that Kimmel is, there's something about how he operates day to day that he's very well equipped to do that show because he's just always engaged.

You can email him at any point of the day and he's ready to go and I just think you have to be wired that way. But I think it's interesting. Stuart and Letterman both leave their shows and immediately grow giant beards. Yeah. It's no fun shaving. Is that where you think it's a shaving thing or it's just like you almost want to assume a new identity?

No, it was the worst part of the job was shaving. And I would do this thing where I would shave on monday and not shaving until wednesday and they would say why you sometimes i'd have a little very stylish stubble on me you know right i mean is that beckham what's going on but anyways all right we're gonna go because so because i took so much of your time thank you this was awesome we saved some stuff for the next time if you ever want to do this again, you might not. If I tell you that Clint Eastwood saw you off camera, off air, will you not repeat it to anybody? Of course. You promise? I promise.

Pleasure seeing you. And if you win the lottery, will you come back? What lottery? Minnesota. Oh, that might be too soon. I don't want you to get bored with me. Good luck with your new show, by the way. Good luck with your new show.

Thank you. Thank you for coming on. It was great to see you. Nice to see you. All right, thanks to Craig Kilborn. Thanks to MailChimp for helping me and everyone at The Ringer build our audience. Go to MailChimp.com. Check out everything they have to offer.

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