The Bill Simmons Podcast - Fultz to Philly, PG-13 Trades, and What Is Boston Doing? (Ep. 227)

Episode Date: June 19, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons brings on staff writer Kevin O'Connor and executive editor Chris Ryan to make sense of why the Celtics traded back in the stacked 2017 draft. Then, Ringer staff writer Mark Titus joins to discuss who won the trade between the Sixers and Celtics (46:00), Jayson Tatum's rookie of the year potential (43:00), Luke Kennard's NBA fit (56:00), Josh Jackson's desire to win the dunk contest (1:02:00), and NBA draft diaries (1:05:00). Finally, Bill's dad calls in to give the final verdict on Danny Ainge's draft record and decide whether the Celtics made the right move to trade the no. 1 pick (1:08:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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did the Razzies. We have a whole bunch of stuff coming up. Good, bad movies week. Also the ringers NBA draft guide, which is the best draft guide on the internet i'm not that's not even hyperbole it just is if you want to follow up on all these draft prospects that you're hearing about and reading about go check that guide out and check out all of our

nba draft content this week speaking of the nba draft i will be going on against all odds with cousin sal this week we're going to be talking about NBA draft props and we are taping that tomorrow Tuesday I mean at 4 30 p.m. and so it'll be up when late night Tuesday night yep and then we got two more BS podcasts coming this week as well including Malcolm Gladwell's coming on this week and then we'll have a big Friday after the draft extravaganza podcast. But coming up right now, we have the Ringers, Kevin O'Connor, with the Ringers, Chris Ryan. We're going to break down the Markel Fultz slash Celtics slash Sixers trade. And then around like the 40-minute mark, the Ringers' Mark Titus is going to come on

to give his take on all these different prospects that you're hearing about and the Fultz trade. And then finally, at around the one hour mark, my dad, long time diehard Celtics fan, very upset about the Celtics trade. He's very upset they traded down. He hates trading down. He's morally opposed to it.

And he's going to come in hot. I can feel it. He's going to come in very, very, very hot. Guns blazing. So that's the podcast. But first, our buddies from Pearl jam. All right. As promised the hardest work of man and show business, Kevin O'Connor from The Ringer. He wrote two columns this weekend.

I think he's been on 75 radio and TV shows. And now he's here on the BS Podcast. Big trade. Terrible timing, as always, for us. We hate when things happen on a Friday night and a Saturday morning when nobody's on the internet. But we felt like this had a chance to happen for a month or so. Who were you more surprised pulled the trigger, Philly or Boston? I'm surprised Boston pulled the trigger as soon as they did. I thought, if anything, this would last maybe until Wednesday night, Thursday night, a little bit before the draft.

The fact that it happened when it did, that part's surprising to me, Bill. Just the timing of all of it. Do you think that they were worried about something with Fultz where they had to maximize what the possibility of the trade was? I don't understand why they didn't wait. The only explanations I could come up with are either they're worried about something with him physically or this is part one of a part two move,

which will be Jimmy Butler for Jake Crowder and the third pick. What would be your guess? I think it's definitely the second part you mentioned where they're trying to make a bigger move. But in terms of Fultz specifically, basketball in drafting and decision-making is so much about more than just what the guy does on the court. And this is just speaking generally, but personality matters, character matters, health matters. And I think that's why there was a lot of talk last week or last weekend about philly needing to see fultz's medical records i don't think there's a

problem everybody i've talked to has said he's fine however fultz did hyper extend his knee twice in high school and then this last season at washington he did have a sore right knee so he said he's had knee injuries on both knees in the past four years so naturally if you're a team you want to check that out if there's so much that goes into decision making beyond just basketball so that all could have played a factor did it for boston i don't know but it certainly could have because it does for every team and every prospect that team scout so from what i know of this whole thing just from my little birdies in the boston organization area slash whatever um from the moment they got this first pick i think they knew that faults

was either the best player in the draft or in the conversation for the best player but clearly you know somebody who had a chance to be on eight-10 all-star teams if everything worked out great. Maybe not one of the best five players in the league, but one of the best 12-15. But the moment they got this pick, I think they were also kind of hoping that somebody underneath them would overpay for it. And, you know, it's that...

Ainge and Belichick, football's different than basketball, obviously. Belichick trades down every time, unless it's that Ainge and Belichick, football is different than basketball, obviously. Belichick trades down every time unless it's somebody like Andrew Luck. If it's like the Miles Garrett draft, he's trading backwards. He's just trying to get more assets for the one pick. I think Ainge is wired like that a little bit. But, you know, this is a situation where Philly at number three in a loaded draft, which I think has a chance to be the best draft since 1998, just from a one to ten standpoint. But I think Ainge just looked at this whole thing and said, if I move back two spots, I might get the best player in the draft at number three anyway.

And I pick up this extra asset, and I have more trade value stuff. It was just never a slam dunk for them. And then obviously when they worked out Fultz for, I don't know what, two different times, if he had blown them away, they don't entertain the trade. So that's what I want to find out. What happened when Fultz came?

What is your intel on that? Well, I think one of the things you hit on, Bill, is kind of what matters here with Fultz, right? They might have been blown away with Fultz, but it's also possible that they were blown away from other players, too. This year's draft is deep. There's a lot of good talent. So there's been a lot of talk the last week about how you shouldn't deal the number one pick. Historically, X amount of players that are drafted number one turn into all-star players. And that's true.

But the thing is, and this is one of the things I wrote about on the article this morning, is that every draft is independent. You can't look just at history. You need to project the particular draft that you're scouting based a little bit on history. So you mentioned the 1998 draft. Someone I talked to a couple months ago compared it to the 1999 draft. And normally, historically, the draft, like the number one pick, starts at the top of the slope, and then it kind of just drops off quickly in terms of production per pick, expected pick value. But if you look at 98 and 99 it's

pretty close to a flat line in terms of the the production the players had throughout their career and it's a little bit hard to explain over podcast but draft express is a great tool for pick expectations and if you plug in 1999 or 1998 on there you see it's a flat line kind of from the one pick to the 10 pick and then the drop off happens right and that's what i think will happen in this year's draft and that's why trading down has made sense for the last couple months and that's why i've been writing about it so much and i think i think all those teams up top would be smart to at least explore it so the fact the celtics did it isn't really surprising but it's a cool thing to see considering the nature of this draft. So 1998, here's the top 10.

Ola Wakandi, Bibby LaFrance. So when that happened, Kevin, you were like two years old during that draft. But when that happened, Paul Pierce was supposed to go one or two to the Clippers or the Vancouver Grizzlies, and he started dropping. Then it went Jameson, Vince Carter, four or five. Now my dad and I, I was actually doing a running diary of this draft for my old website.

My dad and I are watching this draft. I'm running over because back in the day we didn't have wireless. So I'm running over to his computer in the other room and I'm just like Googling, google to see if paul pierce like had a cocaine problem or something because we couldn't figure it out he's dropping he's dropping we're hoping for nowitzki because we were infatuated by this 19 year old german who had larry bird's hair who could shoot who was seven feet robert trailer six jason williams

seven larry he was eight now what now all of a sudden it's Nowitzki and Pierce still on the board and we're a pick away. Nowitzki goes nine for the trade and then Pierce falls to 10. The best two guys in that draft went nine and 10. So now you go the next year, 99, which you mentioned, which I agree is probably more similar to this draft. That was Elton Brand, Steve Francis, Baron Davis, Lamar Odom. And that was, at the time,

that was your top four. Like, people felt like that was our top four in some order, which reminds me of this draft with, you have Fultz, you have Lonzo, Tatum, and Jackson, I think, is the consensus top four for this one. Then you had Jonathan Bender at five,

who was the high school guy who never should have gone that soon. Serbiak, Rip Hamilton, Andre Miller, Sean Marion, Jason Terry. That was your top ten. And then it drops off. And then it drops off and it's done. Now you're the Alaskan assassin, Trajan Langdon, Alexander Roderjevic, Corey Maggette, William Avery, Fred Weiss.

Like the draft fell off a cliff. And you're right. It's like the 99. I tweeted that I thought this draft was better than 03 because I said it's the best draft since 98. And people got upset because they feel like 03 was this unbelievable draft. And it was. It was top heavy.

You had LeBron. You had Wade. You had Carmelo. You had Bosh. Other than that, you didn't have anybody. The reason why this draft is so great is because I forget who has the ninth pick Dallas Dallas might get the best guy in the draft Dennis Smith my father Dallas he might just be yeah he might be the best guy in the draft

we don't know that's why what I love about this draft it's an amazing draft in that sense and that's why like when people have unorthodox rankings, if somebody has Dennis Smith third on their rankings, I don't agree, but I'm not going to really argue against them because this year's draft is just like that. And I think maybe the top nine guys, in my opinion, I have Donovan Mitchell ranked 10th on my board, and I like him a lot, but kind of a top nine is where any of those guys, it wouldn't stun me if 10 years from now we're like, oh, how did Dennis Smith fall to 10?

How did Malik Monk end up being the 12th pick? Jonathan Isaac falling to 7? How? How did we miss that? It's just one of those years, and that's why trading now makes sense. That's why for some teams, like the Kings, I'm not dealing 5 and 10. I'm keeping both those swings that i have yeah because ten even though it feels like it's an eight or nine

player and then it drops so they're kind of sitting on the outside looking at the next wave of guys but teams always screw up you know you always might have minnesota taking Markin in seventh, and then all of a sudden that pushes somebody back. Or Dallas, who the hell knows? Dallas has always been kind of unorthodox with the draft. Two teams screw up. That's what happened with the Celtics. The Celtics had, in 98, they had the 10th pick in an eight-player draft, and two teams screwed up.

And all of a sudden, Paul Pierce is sitting there at 10. There's so many different little we have the ringer nba draft guide which i would encourage everybody who cares about this draft remotely to uh to go check out because we just you and danny chow and jonathan sharks everybody did just a fantastic job i talked to jaylen this weekend because he's doing the draft and we had our annual long phone call about it and at the end i sent him the ringer mba draft guide i was like you should use this check this out and he loved it he and jaylen like barely goes on the internet so even he loved it but we were talking about um all the different little arguments within this draft, which is one of the things that makes it so great.

Like Fultz is the best prospect in the draft from, you know, a safest bet standpoint. But Dennis Smith might end up being a better player. I don't know. I wouldn't bet my life against it. Then you have Jackson versus Tatum as small forwards who could go three or four, three or six, four or seven. Uh-oh, Sixers fan Chris Ryan is entering the building. We just don't know.

So you have all these little arguments within the argument. And that's why if Danny Ainge looked at this and he said, you know what? I think Jackson or Tatum are the two best players in this draft. We can just get these guys at three. Let's pick up an extra pick. I can't say he's wrong. I would have kept the pick and taken faults, but I can't say he's wrong.

Can you say he's wrong if he feels that way? No, because the thing is, everybody, not everybody, but a lot of people have this feeling that every single general manager in the sport, every single executive and scout has the same rankings that they see on the ringer, on ESPN, on DraftXpress, on every site. But that's not the case. Every executive within individual team front offices has different boards. And if you don't, that's usually when there's a problem

because there's groupthink. You want differences in your draft board because you want disagreement and you within a front office so look if danny age has something drastically different from other guys in that front office if daryl morey has different rankings from other guys in his front office that's what you want you want disagreement and there's really no consensus i think markel fultz uh markel fultz rather is the the consensus number one prospect he's not the unanimous number one guy if you ask scouts and executives across the league this is not town sitting there at number one and if you move back davis right and if you move back to like anthony davis it's a good example you move back two spots and now you're getting bradley

biel instead of anthony davis and i really like bradley beal did i just walk in on you guys drinking green kool-aid and talking about how how danny's figured it all out i actually really like faults and that's chris ryan by the way sixers fan i really like faults and i'd become very attached to him thanks to the 10 and a half hours of youtube clips i watched so it hurt a little bit but but you know the belichick i always go back to what would belichick do belichick would try to get more assets out of the pick and this lakers pick they got it's guaranteed to be two through five or they get the king's pick the next year so now you have two swings and if they're going to trade number three anyway which it seems like it's in play, and you flip three for Butler instead of flipping one for Butler,

and then you also get this Lakers pick, that would make sense to me. Would that make sense to you, Chris Ryan? Yeah, I think that Kevin's been writing about this all year. What are the Celtics building for? Are they building to beat LeBron? I don't know. Are they building to be the landing spot for Anthony Davis in a couple years

where they make a post-LeBron run at the Eastern Conference in the finals? Are they the team that's going to challenge the Warriors? Because Jimmy Butler feels like a real let's beat LeBron move. And I know that Kevin has said they're doing both, and that's what the balancing act that Danny is doing is trying to build for now and build for three years from now. But I don't even know if that's a future versus present move because Jimmy Butler's good and he's young

and he's under a good contract. So if you feel like you're just grabbing somebody who's already the, what do you think, Kevin? He's like the 14th best player in the league, somewhere in that range? Yeah. With a chance to get better? Yeah, and he's what, 25?

Jimmy Butler? 27. 27. He'll okay 28 next year a little later than i mean exiting his prime i i'll tell you what i'm a little unsure on jimmy butler uh i love jimmy butler as a player but at the same time like i don't know a part of me would rather take the gamble on paul george over butler depending on the and i think george would be cheaper too oh no i would not take the game on paul george i think he's already looking at houses on redfin and the la area i i think that's a done deal yeah i i get the i get a vibe that he just wants to go out go to la and enjoy himself and i mean

he's homesick in a way, I think. The vibe I get from people I've talked to. We started talking about this in January, February. I think Indiana missed a really big window to trade him. And we've seen this happen over and over again with teams. They missed the Darren Williams window. They missed the Darren Williams window. The shock window.

We talked about it on this podcast. We wrote about it on The Ringer. Utah is the only example of a team that proactively said, we don't like the look in this guy's eyes. Let's move. Paul George, everybody knew that he was looking at 2018 and that it wasn't realistic for him to stay in Indy. And I think if you're Indy, you just go, well, what are we if we don't have Paul George?

I would look at it the opposite. I think Boston would have overpaid for him in February. Yeah, I agree with you. And it's just a better trade. Now we're heading toward a similar situation, maybe with Anthony Davis, if free agency doesn't work out for the Pelicans this summer. Free agency is not going to work out for the Pelicans.

Drew Holiday leaves, and it's just Anthony Davis and Boogie Cousins. They're now staring into the sun with this Anthony Davis thing, right? And you could argue, maybe you just load up and get a million picks from Boston. They can't flip Boogie until,

what's the rule once they acquire it? When can they flip Boogie? Well, they can trade him anytime. They just can't trade him back to Sacramento. Right, okay. Yeah. So, I don't know what they They just can't trade him back to Sacramento. Right, okay. Yeah. So, I don't know what they do.

But anyway, the Paul George thing. So, if he goes to Cleveland, which is how this feels like this is going to work out. Yeah, well, Cleveland's pressing. There's a love, Paul George, either it's straight up or there's a third team or however it's going to work out. Sounds like Indy wants more based on rumors this morning. Like the Indiana is willing to do it, but they want more than just love. Or flip love to a third team and get assets for that, or however it works out.

I don't think the Celtics can beat the Cavs with Kyrie Irving, Paul George, and LeBron James next year. No, I don't think so. Which makes me think they should just keep the pick. Kevin, you think they like Jason Tatum the most of any player in this draft, correct? Yes, Jason Tatum from Duke. Go-to scorer, shot-maker type. All right, we're going to call Mark Titus in a little bit to ask him for his thoughts on Jason Tatum

since he watches more college basketball than anyone I know except maybe KOC. Can I ask you guys a question? Yeah. Do you like Danny Ainge's draft picks so this is and we're gonna call my dad at the end of this podcast because this is my dad's conundrum my dad thinks Danny Ainge makes great trades but then makes terrible draft picks I would much rather have trader Danny than drafter Danny and and if you guys are if you guys are like putting your eggs in the Danny Ainge sees something in Jason Tatum that other people don't, basket. Good luck. I think he's been above average.

Al Jefferson. Avery Bradley. Tony Allen. Tony Allen, Marcus Smart. Marshawn Brooks. Marshawn Brooks. There's been some bad ones. He passed on DeAndre. Yeah. Traded up to get a linic over Giannis. He passed been some bad ones He passed on DeAndre

Yeah Traded up to get He passed on Jimmy Butler Yeah He passed on Draymond Green Like but a lot of teams did too Yeah Giannis I'm not gonna hold against him

I did that draft Jalen and I were actually Talking about this weekend Us watching Giannis clips on my iPad And trying to figure out If he was playing On 10 foot rims or not

Like there's No way that guy Was going 13th I think Ainge's Drafting record was incredible pre-big three era so pre-garnett pre-ray allen but then after that it's been not quite as good and i mean one of the reasons is because the quality of the picks i mean later in the draft but he had a good hit rate early in the 2000s and since then it hasn't been uh nearly as good as it was then the only two indefensible age picks were jr giddens which just felt stupid even as it was happening you know and then um

fab bello the uh dearly departed late fab mellow but in the moment that was it was like fab mellow that's yep fab mellow's a pick and that they were good guys on the board at that standpoint. But I thought that Jalen Brown thing worked out last year. I think if you do that draft over again, he's still KFC. Is he still the third pick? Uh, no, I don't think so.

I think it's probably more like eight, maybe eight, something like that. What are you talking about? Yeah. Maybe this draft is really good no that he might have been eight he might have went eighth last year if he didn't get picked by the celtics he might have slipped last year's draft you think he would have been eighth if it was a do-over oh i thought

you're saying wait are you asking me if jalen if he was in this year's draft no i'm saying last year if we redid last year's draft, is he still the third pick? No, no, no. He'd still be third for sure. Oh, Chris Ryan gave me a smirk. Okay. I also was with you when you were just like Jalen Brown.

You were killing Jalen Brown. Well, he had a bad month. I got upset about it. I'm a passionate fan i know yeah i'm not fickle i just i'm passionate i like i like my guys to be good every month okay now he showed me enough in game seven of the wizard series that made me think that made me still buy in and i like the fact that he went to practice the next day after they got knocked out of the playoffs did you guys already talk about isaiah no, but I think we should because, you know, the thing I was the most surprised by, which KOC and I talked about on a pod two weeks ago, was when I was going to different playoff games, going to the finals games, how many people were asking me about whether they're going to trade Isaiah.

And I do think that was part of this. I think if you take faults, that if I'm Isaiah, I'm not ecstatic about that. I think he was saying all the right things about it. I mean, those guys both went to the same school. It sounds like they know each other at least. I mean, are they friendly, Tate? Yeah. Yeah, they're friendly.

I mean, I'm sure that I would actually just... So if I hired a 25-year-old guy who loved NBA and Game of Thrones and wanted to do all kinds of stuff, you wouldn't feel remotely threatened? I did. The entire staff oh man um no i just think that here's my here's the scenario i could see playing out isaiah starts markel comes off the bench or maybe yeah markel comes off the bench and by the end of the year people are asking shouldn't we be starting markel or why are we paying isaiah 40 million when we just said markel yeah yeah yeah and i i think that danny have very subtly avoided that conversation by doing this but that's he seems like way more of a businessman that he wouldn't care about that like he would be like look but you you're the one who made it sound like it hasn't been since david ortiz that this is there's been a folk hero in Boston like this.

I think he's way too popular to get rid of, personally. It would be one of the most unpopular Boston moves ever. It would even be maybe more unpopular than when they traded Nomar, which was pretty unpopular. But Kevin muttered under his breath when you were talking about what if they, what if they took Dennis Smith third? Do you think that's conceivable? I mean, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's not. I think Dennis Smith is a super appealing prospect and he kind of fits Danny Angel's type.

Um, I don't think they'd take him third, but if you trade down again, which I reported this morning on the ringer is something that I've heard they've explored already. I don't think, I don't know if it will happen but it's something that i think they're open to uh if you trade down again dennis smith is one of the guys i'd have near the top of my list um that i'd be targeting i wonder the suns at four although i i've heard the suns are never going to trade with the celtics again after the isaiah thomason but if they made the suns think they were going to take josh jackson who i think is i think the sons josh jackson and lonzo probably make the most sense but who the

hell knows but i wonder if they could convince him to like tatum too yeah so the sons are fine they don't need to trade up and the kings if it's true that they like fox i never know what to believe because i think half of this stuff is full of shit. Yeah, half of it's agents. Half of it's agents. Like if we like some writer, we wouldn't start leaking to people that we like the writer. We would just kind of quietly try to get the writer, right? Yeah.

I think also, I mean, you just see there's like the Josh Jackson stuff over the last week before the Fultz trade. Yeah. Of like that, I think it was Thursday. Yeah. When Chad had, Chad Ford had Josh, Danny Ainge loves Josh Jackson. And I wouldn't put it past him and take him one, you know? And it's like, that stuff is, gets to Chad in a way. So that, for a reason. KOC, could Josh Jackson be Kawhi?

No. Okay. I don't think so. No, I don't. With Jackson, why is it that last week the rumor was that Josh Jackson got a promise from a team or two or three, and now that's over the weekend there was something that Jackson got promised from a team that's four or five.

I mean, it's a little odd that so much stuff has been out there about Jackson getting promised from now four slots in the top five. It's just a little odd to me. Yeah, which is strange because he's a consensus top five pick. So obviously he would go in. He's probably going to go in the top five. It's almost it was like they were trying to send a signal to somebody not to take him. Yeah, but I don't know what it would be.

Sacramento. Right. Could Jason Tatum be Paul Pierce? I mean, sure. Right. Could Jason Tatum be Paul Pierce? I mean, sure. Yes. I think Pierce is far more achievable than anybody than Kawhi Leonard. Yeah. Okay.

I don't think Josh Jackson could be as good as Kawhi Leonard, but saying like, could he be? Is that his destiny to be that type of a talent? Where you're just an A-plus defender, great athlete, and the offensive game is actually going to end up being a little better than people think. It all depends on where he lands. So much of Kawhi is where he landed in San Antonio. He ended up with the best shooting coach in the world, maybe one of the best specialist coaches ever.

And he got that to improve his jump shot whereas jackson i don't i don't know like hawaii was a solid free throw shooter in college he always had good touch jackson has poor form poor success from the free throw line that's that's my big hang up with him i'm concerned about jackson's shot i really am and i if i'm a team in the top five i'm asking myself do i want to invest in somebody when we we don't have chip england on our on our coaching staff to fix his jump shot you you're i don't know you're really high on tatum aren't you yeah you love i love tatum i think he's gonna be terrific great high free throw rate um big big wingspan tell me sneaky

sneaky big wingspan tell me like i've never watched college basketball in the last 10 years which is almost entirely true right why is is tatum is appreciably better prospect than jabari parker was oh uh i don't know if he's better than jabari but but he has he has the similar traits in the sense that like you can see that go-to scoring ability Parker was super smooth and still is Tatum his footwork is outstanding only 19 his ability to create space off the dribble he's just so fluid with his movements and I know we taught we're always wowed and amazed by great athletes who just throw down amazing dunks and whatnot and Tatum isn't really that guy.

He leans more on just his skill and his footwork and his fundamentals, and he still has athleticism, though. I just think when you project ahead with Tatum, some of the knocks on him are a little bit overrated. His defense isn't great, but if you put him in a situation like Boston that he'll need to defend to stay on the floor, he can. He's a better passer than he gets credit for, so he has other tools to complement his scoring ability.

I just see him as a super advanced scorer for his age who is only going to get better. Plus, the other thing, like we talked about earlier, he's a great kid, a really hard worker, and that stuff matters, all the intangibles off the court. And he's long. I was surprised as I was doing all my recon. He's got the seven-foot wingspan.

Because now you have to learn about all the other guys, right? Well, the thing is, could he be a stretch four? And the answer is, or could you play small ball with him at the four? And you actually could because he's long. He could just put his hands up and do stuff. All right, since we've blown Tatum for the last three minutes, I'm giving Tate 25 seconds to trash him. Here you go, Tate.

He doesn't play defense at all all and he shoots all the time he doesn't pass anyone just look just ask luke canard how many times jason tatum passed him the ball okay there it is that was uh ducator tate frazier with his 15 seconds of uh of throwing cold water on Hey, let's talk about faults for a second. Yeah, man. So the Sixers basically said, we don't really like this third pick, even though this draft is awesome, because basically every single person we could take doesn't really fit in with who we have.

Yeah. And we would love a combo guard who could shoot, who could play off the ball, who could dribble the ball, who could be a go-to scorer. This is why like five days ago I was like, I'm married married to monk because for the not only do i just love him yeah but i'm i'm he's the guy who i feel like fits in great with this team right scores off the ball fits even better yeah i didn't know that was on the table that's on the table

and obviously makes so much sense for them i I got to say, normally I hate everybody who is against the Celtics. It's going to be really hard for me to root against the Sixers, with Embiid, my son Ben Simmons, and Marco Foltz, all of whom I really enjoy watching, and Covington, and Sarich. I like everybody in this team. What a profound impact the process has had on me. Because you know what happens to me now every year? Is I get to the end of an incredibly long NBA season,

and then the NBA season starts. Because as soon as it's over, we're trading draft picks, we're drafting guys with serious injury problems, I'm watching Summer League. It's like this is my winter now, and you guys are all going into summer. But the Sixers are just the kings of the offseason. We were on our Slack in the NBA section immediately putting James Andrews photos,

Photoshopping them with the four guys, including Covington, who's put on 75 pounds of muscle. And had a meniscus last year. On the challenge. But Fultz, Embiid, and Simmons, if they all stay on the court, which I think for two of those three is completely 100% reasonable. Embiid, I don't know what to make of Embiid anymore. I mean, a lot of the cinches on Embiid. I think that they would be an adequate basketball team

with Fultz and Simmons and some Sarich kind of action in Covington. But if you add Embiid and Embiid is as good as he looked last year and gets better and stays healthy, then what are we talking about here? So could you play Embiid, Sarich, Simmons, Covington, and Fultz all together? That would be the inverse of the Stan Van Gundy offense. Yeah, that feels weird, right? Embiid and no shooters.

No, I mean Embiid and Sarge and Fultz can shoot, but the Simmons not being able to shoot thing is really real. And it's going to be the biggest thing that we have to get through. Hold on, but Kevin's contract says that he now has to spend 15 seconds talking about

how simmons is shooting with the wrong hand so go ahead kevin yeah ben simmons who shoots with the wrong hand uh he um he's gonna have problems i think early in his career and it's gonna be an issue for the sixers and that's why faults was important because they have another playmaker who i think could a little ease a little bit of pressure off him. But Simmons, look, teams are going to defend him like he's Jaleel Okafor. If he's spacing at the three-point line, he's not a concern. I have real concerns about him if he doesn't switch hands. And if anybody's wondering, like, why are you talking about Ben Simmons shooting with the wrong hand?

Article on the ringer, meet the NBA shot doctors. In that is a lot of observational evidence that Ben Simmons shoots with the wrong hand. And he admitted himself in an article a couple years back that when he grew up, he started with his right and his dad kind of made him switch to his left. So I think Ben Simmons shoots with the wrong hand and that could be a problem in his NBA career.

So, faults. Am I wrong to say you would have paid more than what you gave up for faults? Yeah. You would have thrown Holmes in, right? I would have thrown Holmes in. Why didn't the Celtics get more, Kevin? That's my biggest thing with this trade

is not that they traded back. It's that they didn't get more. Number three, Sarich and Covington for number one. The week before. And I was like, yeah, I think I'd do that. Right. I think it was really cap, saving cap space. I think that was part of it.

They save about $1.4 million moving from one to three. So if you take on a contract that's guaranteed, then you're just going to have to move that anyway in order to create max cap space. I mean, depending on the order of operations, if they make a trade before free agency it'll be really really difficult to have max space i mean you might not be able to even get there so i i think that's what it was more about about retaining their the maximum amount of flexibility that they have okay so why not get like a pick swap in 2023

or something like anything I don't know. I'm not sure. My problem with this trade from Boston's side is that the way the trade is constituted, Philly had to have said yes in three seconds. Given the people involved, I agree with you.

So we move up from three to one and this Lakers thing from two to five protected or you get the Kings pick done. Call it in. I don't even think they would have haggled about that. But if the Celtics were then like, all right, throwing homes or we want to pick swap at any point from 2020 to 2023, we get it once. I know that this isn't the case, but it's almost like there's a room that Brian Colangelo's in, and he's like Desmond and lost.

And when the trade call from Danny Ainge came in, he opens up this manual and is looking for, if Danny Ainge calls and offers you this, then ask for this in return. Well, there's definitely a fear of Ainge because he's won so many trades. But if I'm the Celtics, I really will never know because they never talk about this stuff. I'd love to know who made the first move. Were the Celtics quietly trying to shop it or were the Sixers saying,

hey, what does it take? They didn't talk about the Sixers. This had been talked about before. The Sixers approached them. Or that the Sixers really wanted Fultz and the Sixers would do what it took to get up to one. What do you think, Kevin? I think they're just a perfect match.

I just don't see another team in that range that made any sense for Boston necessarily to trade down for in terms of anything that could be better than that Lakers pick. And that's where, just playing devil's advocate here, what if, let's say the Celtics had held out and said, Oh yeah, we can get better than that. We, you can,

you can have that pick be unprotected. What if it went the opposite way? What if closer to the draft, there's nothing out there for Boston and Philly's like, you know what? Let's make those protections three to 10 instead of two to five. I'm just saying like, what if,

what if Boston actually had less leverage here than you think? Well, especially if they genuinely felt like they wanted to move back and that Fultz was the wrong pick for them. And they were moving back anyway. Do you think it takes, if this third pick now becomes Butler, do you think that there's a degree to which Ainge was thinking, what is the least amount that I can pay for Butler and what can I get getting there because I'm trying to figure

out why he wouldn't just say if you want Butler why why help the Sixers why not just turn around and trade the one for Butler I'm gonna I'm gonna answer that question in one second but first what's worse than having lousy sheets oh god I remember being in college trying to prolong the same set of sheets for weeks because I didn't feel like doing laundry. I still have nightmares about those sheets. Guess what? Great sleep starts with the right sheets and they're more affordable than you think with bowl and branch.

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and you'll get $50 off your first set of sheets plus free shipping when you use the promo code BS. Try them for 30 nights if you're not impressed. Return them for a full refund. $50 off plus free shipping right now at B-O-L-L and branch.com. All right. What was your question?

It was a great question. If the goal is to trade for Butler. Yeah. They don't want to give up one for Butler, so you give up three and you keep the pick. Because of the optics or because they think they can get something else out of that? I think they're just looking at it as assets. And they get the future pick. So basically they're quote unquote drafting Butler, right?

And then they have one of the two Sixers assets in future years, plus the Nets pick, plus their own pick. Why am I worried about an Isaiah Thomas, Jimmy Butler combo? Because they're both very headstrong guys. Who like to have the ball all the time. Yeah. I don't know if that's... I'd be worried.

I don't know if that's a great combo. I would rather take Tatum. I really would. I i like the tatum pick i think he's good i'd rather have tatum and have the laker pick i'm good i think i don't need jimmy butler problems in the locker room i don't they're not going to beat golden state in the next two years anyway nobody's beating golden state build for the future that's what that would be my recommendation chris ryan what about george so you still what if what if george came really cheap though like i know you said earlier you don't want anything to do with george but what what if it was really 25 cents on the dollar yeah but you just you would take the risk then it would be so this isn't david cohen man you can't you really can't just pay to rent him like you gotta david who david cohen like

you know david or david wells would get treated like oh yeah every at the end and every all-star break to like play for toronto or the yankees like i said on ringer slack which nobody could see other than people at the ringer i i would not go further than crowder smart and the laker pick for for george and i don't even know how to get smart crowder and smart and the laker pick and i would keep this pick and uh that and i would just try to see the one thing with paul george that i haven't seen mentioned and i'm reasonably sure i'm correct on if he makes second team or third team all nba this year this upcoming year then doesn't that mean the team that has him can offer more or no no no it's just it was just the pacers oh because he had the longevity there okay that's

the same thing with boogie right because they were that's why they were furious that boogie got traded because it cost him that contract right so if paul george was a smart person and wanted to play in a winning team he should okay the cleveland trade and play there for one year and then just sign with la over having la give up an asset that would help him build a better team that's why cleveland's the only right partner for this because cleveland theoretically cleveland could only have another season of this core anyway this is why the celtics should not trade for jimmy butler they're not beating a team with lebron kairi and paul george on it they're just not it's not

happening but why why would indiana want kevin love that that's the thing i can't figure out the only benefit i like kevin love is if you if you get him and you force feed him the ball like he did his last three years in minnesota he gets 26-12 because he can still do that. And then you flip him as soon as possible. But getting Kevin Love to keep Kevin Love makes zero sense. I just don't see why it makes sense. But has Indiana under Bird or even Pritchard ever suggested anything but wanting to be in and around the playoffs? Being a 42-win team?

I think he fits the plan perfectly. If that's your goal, then great. Yeah, but that's one of those teams where I feel like the institutional culture. But Indy's one of those teams where I feel like that's the culture there. They've never tanked. Old owner, right?

Old owner. Don't tank. It's a little like what Herb Cole was like in Milwaukee, too. Don't tank. Try to compete every year. I'm higher on kevin love than you kevin i think i think if if he's was just completely marginalized in cleveland and i still think it

would take him a week to get the inside outside game back and you could build an offense around him and turner and to be honest that's the appeal i'm not about... I'm not crazy what I saw from Paul George the last couple years. I don't think he's the number one guy. I think he'd be an unbelievable number three guy. Well, that's what he's setting himself up to be. I mean, unless he goes to the Lakers. And even in the Lakers, you know, it's like they're still trying to build up Ingram. They have the number two pick.

Unless they flip it for George, I guess. If the Lakers could trade Ingram and Dang for Paul George, I would do that in a heartbeat. Yeah, but they're not going to trade Ingram, though. You wouldn't do that for who? Indy? I wouldn't do that for George. You wouldn't do that if you were the Lakers?

No, I'd keep Ingram. No way. Ingram's going to be really good. He made really good progress towards the end of the season. He's so young. But you're dumping the Dan contract in that trade, I think, is part of the appeal, right?

If you think LeBron's coming. I don't think it's that big of a difference. If you think LeBron's coming. I think you can get George for cheaper than that. I really do. Really? I don't think you should have to give up Ingram. So you're talking like a Julius Randall-Jordan Clarkson combo? Yeah, I mean, why not?

Yeah. D'Angelo Russell instead. Why Ingram? Ingram is going to be really good for a really long time. If I was Indy, I would just call Paul George's bluff. And do what?

Keep him? Just keep him and hope he makes all NBA and that you could offer him $50 million more than everybody else. I don't think he wants to stay. We've been down this. This is Carmelo all over again. hope he makes all nba and that you could offer him 50 million more than everybody else i i think the whole i don't think he wants to say we've been down this this is this is carmelo but if

i'm looking at julius randall and jordan clarkson for paul george i'm just keeping him at that point and hoping that february yields a better offer if exactly if it is carmelo you can get a better offer in february some team will be willing to give more then i think don't settle for just kevin love and like jetty osmond now from the calves and like they're 2021 first wait until the season and then some team might be desperate willing to give up more maybe the lakers at that point are like oh damn we might lose them if we don't go all in the only thing is i think that's what i agree with you but think about what would have happened if

they tried to do wiggins for love at the All-Star break the year Wiggins got drafted after everybody saw his jumper. That's a good example. Well, that's a good example, though. I feel like draft picks lose their value as soon as they start playing. It's true. But Wiggins Love is the perfect test case for what Indy needs to do with Paul George, where the greatest trade possible materialized out of nowhere. And if it's six months later, it all of a sudden maybe doesn't seem like the greatest trade ever.

Andrew Regan's is wobbling around. Last question, KFC. And then we were going to call Mark Titus. How much did the brain doctor have to do with this trade for faults? You know, it's a, it's very funny that you mentioned that.

I texted one of my buddies about that yesterday. I asked that exact question. I wonder how much Brain Doctor factored into this. And I don't know. But I'm sure the Brain Doctor certainly might have played a role. You know, Chris, you know, Ange's Brain Doctor. He's got like a guru. Yeah, he asks all these weird questions.

So he probably asked Markel Fultz like, Okay, Markel, like a diehard situation. Terrorists enter the Celtics practice facility. What do you do? Markel Fultz is like, I look around and wait for somebody else to stop them. And they're like, you're out. We're trading you now.

Like, I think they ask weird questions like that. He's not trying to be in Starfleet. I'm just saying. He's the brain doctor. All right, KOC, We'll see you in LA. You're coming here tomorrow. And I'm sure you'll probably be on at least seven of our podcasts over the course of the week. Thank you.

Thank you guys for having me. See you tomorrow. All right. All right. We're going to call Mark Titus in a second. Why don't you dial him up as I'm reading this ad? It's not just an ad. It's propercloth.com.

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oh yeah first question did my Celtics make the biggest mistake of our lives trading down and giving up Markel Fultz you made the biggest mistake in firing Rick Pitino who just the news just broke he's going to have to take down his 2013 national

title banner i thought that's why you had me on to talk prostitution wait a second let's talk about that i hate rick patito give us the rick patito story in two minutes uh the rick patito story he basically like they brought 16 year old guys uh on recruiting visits um they would just be like hanging out in the dorms and then suddenly these strippers would burst into the dorms and start giving them lap dances, and then the assistant coaches would toss them condoms and say, go have sex with

these women, and the guys were really uncomfortable. And, yeah. And so now they're going to have to, like, for the first time in NCAA basketball history, they're going to have to take down a national title banner, and it's amazing. It's unprecedented. And Rick Pitino has released a press statement saying he's lost like all he's lost all faith in the ncaa and what they stand for

and all that kind of shit oh my god it's amazing so anyway sorry back to the point so wait you're saying we shouldn't do that when we're recruiting for writers for the ringer anymore right right yeah that's that's how i yeah that's how i came on with the race that's how that's how you first got me uh you and i first got in touch yeah back in the day you were 16 and i just sent some strippers over to you right so patino doesn't get fired for that explain that to me just quickly that's not a fireball offense no because he wins games that's all that matters he he wins you know bill i'm gonna is going to be shocking to you, but the NCAA, as it turns out, it's not just about amateur athletics and turning boys into men and giving guys education opportunities.

It actually is a lot about money and running a business. Who would have thought? Chris Ryan. Sixers fan Chris Ryan is here as well. Should he be, rank it from him being super excited about Markel Fultz to me being traumatized by it. Who do you feel more bad slash happy for? I would be happy. I mean, I'm happier for the Sixers fans, obviously.

Thank you, Mark. Was it going to be Simmons, Embiid, and Fultz, that's amazing. That's exciting. And TJ McConnell, that's a foursome. That's terrifying. That's devastating. Future Sixer, JJ Redick, Rashawn Holmes, Dario.

I'm sure you've already talked about this, or you will. What is Danny Ainge doing? I need this explained to me, because I don't i don't get into the weeds he's playing seven dimensional chess mark yeah mere mortals like us can't explain how to build for 2018 and 2025 at the same time we're we're we're all playing checkers and he's playing chess so don't ask it it feels like he's waiting for like the 2025 draft so he can own the entire first round and just sit back and just like, I want everybody.

I'm taking them all, and that's his plan. I'm really confused. But, yeah, I feel like he's overthinking it. I mean, this is hyped as the best draft in a long time, and I know every draft gets built like that. That seems to be the thing every year. This draft is so deep and all that. But it felt like people were serious about this one and you have a guy in Fultz who is clearly the best player

and the deepest and best draft in a long time and all that kind of stuff like why are we overthinking this Danny I hate this yeah it's like the deepest draft everybody was like this is the 99 draft again and then the closer we get it's like oh by the way, Lonzo sucks. And Tatum is just Jabari Parker. And I don't know, Darren Fox can't shoot. And then it just keeps getting worse and worse. Everyone picks it apart. KOC and I talked at the beginning of this about, I really do feel like this is on the level of the 98-99,

where if you have the ninth pick, you might get the best guy in the draft. We just don't know. But now I feel like people are like, everybody's just waiting for Michael Porter anyway. It's just like, what are we talking about? That's lazy narrative. But are you sure? That's going to happen again next year.

That's going to happen again next year. Porter's going to come along and be like, well, he's not actually that good. Let's trade down and let's worry about the guy in 2020 who's going to be the... It feels to me like the NBA, that's become the thing. It's just like, we don't actually want to build a team now. We're just perpetually building for the future that never actually comes.

I think people – It's hilarious to watch. I know, but I think people are paralyzed by the Warriors. I think they – That's true. There's like a helplessness where they just look at it and they go, well, we can't beat that team anyway, so what do you do? That's true.

The Celtics were the fourth, maybe even the third best team in the league this year, and they got annihilated by the Cavs who then got annihilated by the Warriors and probably could have been swept if they didn't hit 24 threes and they killed the Celtics Isaiah wasn't healthy for that series and there's been an erosion of appreciation for teams like Toronto, Washington

the Clippers you don't want to be those teams so if the Celtics take Jason Tatum at three and keep the pick like Toronto, Washington, the Clippers. You don't want to be those teams. Yeah. So, all right. So if the Celtics take Jason Tatum at three and keep the pick and then end up with this Lakers pick that, you know, has a chance to be two through five next year

or flips to the Kings pick. But should I be bummed out that I get Jason Tatum out of this draft when I had the first pick? Is that what they're going to do, you think? Tatum instead of Jackson? I think Tatum. Tatum makes sense.

Yeah. So tell us about Tatum. I was under the impression they were going to take Jackson, which I definitely did not like. I like Jackson as a player. I do not like Jackson with the Celtics when they've already got Marcus Smart and Jalen Brown, and they don't need another guy with a questionable jump shot

on the wing who plays defense and all that kind of stuff uh but Tatum yeah Tatum to me is like the best um he's the most NBA ready guy now it wouldn't surprise me I don't there are a lot of factors that go into like winning rookie of the year and all that kind of stuff but um just as it stands today without really knowing what teams all these guys are going to end up on and what their situations are going to be and what happens to free agency um Tatum to me like seems like a good rookie of the year pick um just as far as I mean the downside to him is like what you see is what you get like he's not to me he's not really going to get much better I mean he's just going

to kind of be the same guy he's going to score more um throughout his career like slowly get better but he's not going to Fultz obviously has the bigger upside Ball has a huge upside De'Aaron Fox you know ton of potential but Tatum I don't really see like a ton of potential with him but at the same time he's also like probably the best player at the stands right now so yeah I'd be excited for the Celtics if you've already got like a ton of guys you can be excited about and maybe Gordon Hayward's coming and all that kind of stuff then yeah Tatum Tatum makes sense. Your teed-up partner, Tate Frazier,

needless to say, had some mean remarks about Tatum. Tate highlighted some minuses. Let's just put it that way. Tate concentrated on the minuses in the Jason Tatum package. That's shocking. Where did Tatum go to school? I forget. He went to a place in North Carolina, Duke University.

Oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's weird. Tate wasn't a fan. There's been some Dennis Smith buzz, and we have not talked about him on this podcast with you. He had the 48-inch vertical leap that everybody got blown away about, and I felt from the beginning that this was Steve Francis 2.0 all over again.

It just seems like the kind of guy who's going to put up good stats on a bad team. Is there anything you like about him that I'm missing? I mean, I think you hit it. I didn't watch a ton of NC State this year. I was boycotting Mark Gottfried. So I purposely wasn't going to get sucked into the vortex because NC State was built as this great team.

They had a Turkish dude that they brought in that was supposed to be great, too, and Dennis Smith. And I knew they were going to get sucked into the vortex because NC State was like billed as this great team they had they had a Turkish dude that they brought in that was supposed to be great too and Dennis Smith and and I knew they were going to be terrible so I purposely didn't watch many games and I boycotted them but um no like he he was in the games I did watch yeah he's just like really explosive really raw like he clearly wasn't well coached and wasn't really sure what he's supposed to be doing out there but um I don't know I I could see him yeah having a great NBA't really sure what he's supposed to be doing out there. But I don't know. I could see him. Yeah. Having a great NBA career.

I mean, like he's got the stuff you can't teach, which is good, right? Like being able to jump high. That's typically a good thing. And Lonzo, Lonzo is now Chris,

you feel like there's some, I will Lonzo backlash. It seems to be all driven by his dad. The relative silence of the Lakers over the last five days, to me, signals that they're just sold on Lonzo. They should be. Yeah. I mean, it's a great story. It's like, I can't wait for this to happen.

It's the best. It's the best. I just think he has the highest ceiling of – I even think he has a higher ceiling than Fultz, I've got to be honest. Like if it all falls into place and he has the right teammates, it could be magical. It could be like everything I wanted from Ricky Rubio blown out bigger. Remember Rubio in the 2008 Olympics?

He was like 17 playing the Americans we were like oh my god what's and then it was just like everything that could have gone wrong went wrong for his NBA journey right stays in Spain for two years goes to Minnesota he's on a shit team Kobe rolls into his leg he's never the same from that 17 different coaches and I think Lonzo is just better than him anyway like better than what rubio had that run like the second half of last season where he got his jumper got inexplicably hot for like a couple weeks yeah and you were just like this guy would obviously be a hall of famer if he could if he could shoot this is amazing like he was just he was also single-handedly just

like making wiggins and Towns incredible. Yeah. The Lakers should take Lonzo. Titus, rank. Give us your top five ranked on who you'd want to play pickup basketball with. Hmm. I mean, Lonzo would definitely be number one. Me too. Because he passes.

He's passing first. Yeah, you know you're getting the ball. Yeah. And he's just, yeah. He was so fun to watch. I'm semi-worried about, like, he's got one one-on-one move and it's a 35 foot step back then he shoots from the wrong shoulder that like kind of worries me if i'm being honest but like you know it goes in you know he makes it a lot so that's kind of cool uh he would definitely be number one i would say malik monk i would love to play pickup with he would drive

me crazy if he's not hidden but i respect guys that get hot and i i as someone who can get hot myself not clearly not on the level of malik monk but um that was because you were never in the right system man yeah titus you were in the wrong situation. As someone who firmly believes in feeding the hot hand and pick up basketball, and it drives me up a wall when people do not feed the hot hand, I would love playing with Monk when he's got the hot hand and just finding a way to get him the ball. Wait, can I interrupt you for one second?

Yeah, go ahead. Because the advanced metrics 538 culture, where sometimes they write stuff when it's clear that they maybe haven't played sports as much as other people. But there's been this whole thing about how the hot hand is a myth and it doesn't really exist. It's total bullshit. It doesn't exist. Get out of here. It 1 million percent exists. And there are moments when the rim just gets bigger. And it was when I did the pod with Durant last week. And one of my favorite parts about that pod was when he was talking about how bummed out he was that the finals was over because he was hot. He was like, I was in the zone.

I want to keep playing basketball. The rim is huge for me right now. And Mock is a great example of the rim just gets big for him yeah and he goes on these binges that's why if if we're doing the most fun version of this draft mock on the knicks is the most fun destination him and msg having like these 29 going on like a clay thompson run at msg yeah and msg just fucking losing their mind because mock and porzingis are hitting 23s and a half. That's the most fun for this. Alright, so you have Monk second. Who's third for playing pickup?

I guess Fox. I like Fox a lot. He plays really hard. He would kind of... I would want him on my team because I wouldn't want to play against him. He would be the guy that takes it way too seriously. Yeah, he's guarding your full court. Yeah, and it would drive me nuts. So I'd want him on my team

so I wouldn't have to play against him. Then probably Fultz just because he can do a little bit of everything and those are valuable guys to have. And he's mellow.

Yeah, he's mellow. He won't care if he takes the last shot. And then I guess it's Jackson or Tatum and I'm not sure which one. It depends on what we need, I guess.

I haven't really thought about it. I want to shoot a lot so I would say Jackson. I would make him play defense. I don't want Tatum treating me and I'm not sure which one. It depends on what we need, I guess. I haven't really thought about it. I want to shoot a lot, so I would say Jackson. I would make him play defense. I don't want Tatum treating me like I'm Luke Kennard and trying to fight for shots like he did on Duke last year. I want the shots. Which I guess is counterproductive

if I said I want Monk on my team and I want the shots, but you know what I mean. Tate just did his rankings and Luke Kennard and Tatum were last. They were tied for last place. They were at the end of the second round. Last question. I should have said Luke Kennard, Markkinen, all the street racers.

That's true. The Hornets are figuring out how to get Markkinen. They need to add him to their list of seven-foot white guys. The T-Wolves have been attached to Markk marketing in every single mock like there's never been a second like i've never seen a single like oh yeah maybe they'll trade back or maybe they'll trade zach levine in this pick for something it's just always like nope marketing it's like what's like what it would be funny if tibbs gave a press conference it was like look we're not fucking taking marketing all right that guy can't rebound last question uh there's been some lu Luke Kennard climbing into the top 10 buzz.

He's this year's workout warrior. Every year there's a workout guy. And after Joe Alexander went eighth, I thought that would be scary. But no. Then Nick Stauskas. Every couple of years this happens again. Is Luke Kennard an NBA player? Is this somebody that's going to start for a good team

oh my god this is i yes yes or no that's my answer yes i don't know he i'll like so if you don't watch if you didn't watch canard play a lot you you might think that he's just a shooter and i will say that he's definitely not just like a spot-up three-point shooter. He can score. He's a scorer who can shoot. And I'm not really sure if that translates well. I was a believer in guys like Morrison. I thought Redick is having a good career. I guess maybe he might be the – that would be the comparison.

I know they both played at Duke, and I'm trying not to compare white Duke guys to other white Duke guys. But, yes, I want to say yes. Like, I'm a college guy, but I know, like, people are going to make fun of me, like, he's not actually that guy. I think his biggest problem is he's a white guy who played from Duke and he's from Ohio. And if he was, like, from Europe somewhere, if he was from France

and, you know, he was some, like, 18-year-old who was billed as, like, the next big thing, I think people will be more excited about him because i don't know white guys who are shorter than six six from america there's not exactly a great track record there so if you said modern nba so if his name was luca canardich and he's from croatia people would be higher on him people will love him i make this point all the time with like, yeah, that's a huge deal. That's why like, there's a kid at, me and Tate talk about this on our podcast all the time, there's a kid at Kansas from Ukraine,

Svitislav Mikhailuk, who's 6'8 and is supposed to be this great shooter, and every time in a mark he gave, he does nothing. You check these mock drafts, he's always projected to go first round, because he's a 6'8 dude from Europe, who can shoot and kind of handle the ball a little bit. Yeah, he's always like projected to go first round. Cause he's a six foot eight dude from Europe. Yeah. Shoot and kind of handle the ball a little bit.

Um, yeah, I swear there's something to that. Is that, yeah, there's, you gotta be European. The best case ever of this was Mike Dunleavy Jr.

Who, if he, if he was just a Lithuanian guy named Alexandre Dunleavich or whatever, he would have been the, this, everybody would have not known what to do with him, but he had the combo of he went to Duke and was a junior and then just was graded

on this curve for his whole career. He actually was a pretty skilled weight swingman guy for a long, long time. I'm more dubious of Kennard. The word combo guard is always a red flag for me because that just tells me you can't play either position well.

That is true. So who's a combo guard? Like Della Dova? Della Vadova? Right? Grievous Vasquez? We haven't used combo guard in a while. Combo guard is worrisome.

I'd like somebody to be able to play one of the two positions well. Combo guard means I can't play either well. Titus, how high are you on Jonathan Isaac? Not as high as Tate, who loves Jonathan, who proclaimed Jonathan Isaac to be National Player of the Year throughout the season. But, yeah, I like it. I think the tendency there is people think he's Durant, which is what happened with Brandon Ingram, where they're like, oh, a I think the tendency there is like people think he's Durant,

which is what happened with Brandon Ingram where they're like, Oh, a skinny dude who can shoot threes a little bit. You're, you're the next Durant. And he's not that he's definitely not that, but he also is. Yeah.

He's like seven foot tall and can shoot threes. So that's cool. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I, I would say he's properly rated if we're doing the, uh,

the patented overrated, underrated, properly rated thing. Yeah. Okay. So, all right, this is my new last question. rated if we're doing the uh the patented overrated underrated properly rated thing yeah okay so all right this is my new last question can we at least agree that josh jackson is going to be an incredible in-game dunker in the nba like at the very least that's that's going to happen right yes yes he is he's yes he's going to win a dunk contest i I would bet on that. He's like a 9.5 out of 10 on the dunking on guys scale.

Yes. He also strikes me as a guy who is very serious about the dunk contest. I hope I'm right. Like a little too serious? Yeah, he's going to want to win the dunk contest. He's going to want to dunk on people. Yeah, he's very aggressive, very intense. I love Josh Jackson, you know. So, yeah.

Because I went on a YouTube deep dive. I had watched him in college, and I thought he was good. But I went on a YouTube deep dive to try to see what his extended offensive game was. And it was just, like, all dunk videos. It was just him dunking in traffic on alley-oops um all over the place and i didn't really see a lot of drop steps or beating guys off the liberal dribble a little baseline follow-aways none of that but i saw dunks i saw lots and lots of dunks so you're right for the celtics the team that has Marcus smart and Jalen Brown and all that,

like that probably don't need another guy to be a rule of how many defensive bulldogs you can have on one team. Right. Yeah. Unless you're trying to create a rock fight team. All right, Titus, are you writing this week?

Yeah, I'm writing about, for the bad movie week, I'm writing about roadhouse. I'm really excited about that. Fantastic. Great to hear that. I haven't watched roadhouse. And then I think I'm going to do something for the draft. I'm going to Roadhouse. I'm really excited about that. Fantastic. Great to hear that. I haven't watched Roadhouse.

And then I think I'm going to do something for the draft. I'm going to watch the draft, which, by the way, because a certain somebody that I'm talking to right now has kind of retired the draft diary thing and is not giving the people a rundown of the draft as an event. I'm going to try to write about the draft as an event. Do it. Because that's super interesting to me. Everyone talks about what this means for the teams moving forward like grade the team's drafts all that kind of stuff i don't want to that's not as interesting for a guy like me who's

like the college basketball guy i'm more interested in like fran forshilla popping out of his bunker to talk about these you know eastern european guys that he started scouting three weeks earlier and stuff like that. I'm excited about Shane Battier when he was interviewing guys after they would get drafted. He's just monotone and all that kind of stuff. To me, the draft is an awesome event and I'm excited to watch it.

I'll probably write something about that. I did that draft when Shane Battier, who was such a nice guy, and he just didn't know how to be a sideline reporter. It was too bad. So Fran, Fran's really like that. Because we did the Giannis draft together, and Jalen and I were so confused by the Giannis clips because we couldn't tell if they were 10-foot rims, all that stuff.

And Fran had somehow watched like 120 Giannis games dating back to like the seventh grade. But yeah, he had the classic quote about that bruno guy that toronto picked oh a year away from being your way two years away from being two years away yeah but i love fred yeah fred was good he's awesome the problem with the draft like from when i was doing the diaries way back when there was so much unintentional comedy but then the agents and the reps around the players have figured out how to nullify a lot of the comedy all the suits are

very like well thought out now and the guys are a lot more polished than they were also pick tipping is is like kind of pick tipping is ruined a visual event yeah like when i was doing it darius miles walked up to the stage and and gave David Stern a full body dick on dick hug. That would never happen now. Like you can go look it up on YouTube, whatever draft that was. He hugs him and it's like a romantic hug. That doesn't happen anymore. Anyway, if you can mind the comedy of this draft, I fully support it. Use doesn't happen anymore. Anyway, if you can

mind the comedy of this draft, I fully support it. Use the diary gimmick. I bequeath it to you. Okay, I will think about it. I'm definitely going to grill John Calipari. You know John Calipari is going to get in front of a camera at some point, and he's going to do this thing where he complains about

how he doesn't know which of his players' tables to sit at. He does that complaint thing where he complains about how he doesn't know which of his players tables to sit at. And he's like, he does that, that complaint thing where it's like actually like a humble brag type situation. Yeah. He's the master of that.

That's going to piss me off. So, um, yeah, I'm sure there'll be enough content for me to, to work with, but cool. Thank you.

Yep. See you guys. All right. Thanks to Chris Ryan as well for joining us. We're going to call my dad in one second, but first a quick break with a message brought to you by credit wise from capital one credit is like a, See you guys. All right. Thanks to Chris Ryan as well for joining us. We're going to call my dad in one second. But first, a quick break with a message brought to you by Credit Wise from Capital One. Credit is like a golf major.

It's all about how well you perform against the factors that go into a credit score. How good are you at paying your bills on time? How much credit do you have spread across different accounts? And how long have those accounts been open? All of these factors impact your credit health. And there is no one single score that lenders use... I'm on a podcast right now. Yeah, but Dad, did you crash the... Dad, can you wait one second until I finish this read?

Sure, I'm sorry. Since there is no one single score that lenders use, knowing these factors are key credit-wise lets you track the factors that make up your credit health using information from your TransUnion credit report. The app can help you spot errors or identify theft and lays out information you need to understand your behaviors and how they impact your credit health. Plus, you can check it anytime without negatively impacting your credit. My dad's credit health is fine, but his health is not fine after this trade. Anyway, the best part, it's 100% free for everyone,

whether you're a Capital One customer or not. So step up your game and download CreditWise today. All right, my dad's on the phone. My dad is really upset. He's about as upset as I've seen him with a Boston sports trade. As he put it in text the other day, he thinks Danny Ainge is great at trades

and bad at drafting. And I texted him, well, this should make you happy. He's great at trades. And my dad texted back, yeah, but he's bad at drafting. So it's like a chicken or an egg thing. You're on the phone.

Dad, give us your thoughts. Well, I'm just, you know, all season long we were hoping that Brooklyn would fall so far that we'd end up with the number one draft pick, which means you have total control over which player you want to take, and you want to take the number one, the best player that's out there. And it just feels like one of those trades where we traded two quarters for a dollar, and nobody knows what that Laker pick's going to look like.

Nobody knows what New Orleans is going to look like in two years. The only way that the trade, I could make sense of the trade of the draft picks and live with it, is if it's part of a bigger plan to package a number of these assets together to bring in somebody. And I don't know who that somebody is. I mean, the two you keep hearing about are Butler and Anthony Davis, and I can't see Anthony Davis ever happening. So it just makes no sense to me, unless they were really worried about Fultz's knee, which you mentioned to me. I was guessing, though.

I don't know either way. It just seems like maybe if they were worried about him physically or if they just decided they have to pay Isaiah and to pay Isaiah $40 million a year and Fultz $8 million a year when now you're paying two guards half of your salary cap, maybe they just didn't want to do that. I don't know. Yeah.

I mean, if they're going to pay Isaiah, whoever the second guard is, is going to be paid. If it's A.B. Bradley, he's going to be paid good money. If they bring somebody in here, he's going to be paid good money. It's going to be interesting. I'm still not convinced that the Lakers are going to take Ball. I don't know about you, but we could end up sitting there with the third pick trying to choose between Ball and Tatum. And I just think that's ludicrous.

And the other thing I mentioned to you, I mean, I was watching TV. I wasn't there, but was watching TV last year when they announced, when Rick Grossbach went out to a very large crowd at the Garden to announce that they had chosen Jalen Brown. Yeah. And he got so strongly booed. Yeah. Well, what do you think is going to happen this time?

People were really locked in up here to folks. Yeah. You know? So you think you still live in Boston. I mean, we've talked about that before, but for anybody who doesn't know that, everyone in Boston is upset about this trade, right? Everyone I've talked to, first of all, doesn't think they got enough for it. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to, if there's,

everything we've read has said that there's been three tiers of players in the top 15. Fultz was in a tier by himself. Then you had a tier of four or five other people, and then all the others. Well, or Fultz and Lonzo were in a tier together. It was either Fultz or Fultz and Lonzo together but that's doesn't matter for us because we have the third pick uh well i i i never read that lonzo was in the same tier as uh folks chad ford had that

chad ford did the tears you just won't pay for espn insider anymore because you won't give espn any money but well i won't um for reasons any money. Well, I won't. For reasons that I probably shouldn't talk about publicly. Yeah, especially after last week. After last week. And I just read an article in Hollywood Reporter that made me cringe. But anyway, that's a different topic. I just, nobody I have chatted with thinks, if we had gotten more than just one extra draft pick,

or even a player, you know, I always like, I thought that Holmes, the center on Philly, would have been a tremendous asset for us. And Philly has about 12 centers, so I'm not sure why Ainge didn't apply something more in order to make this deal. Kevin O'Connor was on before you,

and he theorized, and feels pretty confident about the information, that one of the appeals for this thing for them was that they saved $1.5 million in cap space, dropped it from one to three and they didn't want to add

a player because they're trying to get as much money as possible for free agency was his theory because I feel the same with you I just feel like Holmes or Sarich probably should have been in this deal should have been in the deal

and if that's the small amount of money that you're trying to make up, then cut more people on the current team. I mean, how many people on this current team are people that you couldn't live without? Two or three, probably. What do you mean, two or three? That I couldn't live without?

Couldn't live without. Yeah, it's basically Isaiah Horford and Jalen. And maybe Bradley. Maybe, maybe. Not for $25 million a year, though, but for $8 million, Bradley I would put on that list. Well, I mean, I'm talking about the future. In a year, Avery Bradley is going to want much more money than that.

He may want almost maximum money. You're not going to pay him that. I don't think you're going to pay him that. So you're saying you would have rather gotten Holmes and then given away Terry Rozier to make up the money? Of course. I mean, even the Terry Rozier pick make up the money. Of course. I mean, even the Terry Rozier pick a couple years ago, he came in,

he had two good workouts, and suddenly a mediocre season became this secret lottery choice that Danny Ainge was going to make. And the guy's mediocre. You know, he has a couple of good moments every game,

but, you know, he's not going to take anywhere. And, you know, if you have to give up his salary and bring in a Holmes, I'd make that trade in a millisecond. You even like that. You're like the last person in the world who likes Okafor, too. At least Okafor gives you an inside presence, and I think Okafor and Horford

could play together. I mean, I would have rather I think Holmes would have been a much cheaper option because he was a free agent or a second round pick so I would have gotten that route because he's a rebounder. I mean, we watched

every one of these playoff games most of the season we got got out-rebounded. And he made no move, Ainge, at the trade deadline in February. I just feel like... I know Ainge has made three great trades that certainly he should get a lot of credit for. The bringing in KG, Jeff, Ray Allen.

That period, making the trade with New Jersey, with Brooklyn, New Jersey for those draft picks and then signing Isaiah or trading for Isaiah. But there's a lot of other moves that are really iffy.

When you look at some of the draft picks that are no longer on our team, I mean, James Young, the three-point shooter that is out of the league now. I don't know. All right, so let's quickly go through this. So here's the Ainge draft record because I've heard you say this let's just talk about it 2004 Jefferson, Delante and Tony Allen that was a good draft

right? Jefferson was a very good pick at I think 16 or 17 the other two guys are role players Tony Allen at 25 is a good pick Delante was nuts but 25 is a good pick. Delonte was nuts, but he was a good pick at 24.

You got to give him that. So he's 1-0 with that draft. Next year, Gerald Green and Ryan Gomes. Terrible draft. What are you kidding? Next year. They were part of the trade for Garnett, but keep going. The next year took the seventh pick, and instead of taking Rudy Gay, traded it to Portland for Sebastian Telfair and put the Love Friends contract.

What a great pick. Maybe Danny will testify at his trial. Probably coming up next week or soon. Well, they did get rid of the LaFrance contract in that trade. I like LaFrance. All right. All right, so. He's one of my lefties.

07, they flipped Jeff Green for Ray Allen. So I support that. We gave him credit for that one. 2008 flipped, took J.R. Giddens over DeAndre Jordan. I got to say, you were very unhappy about that even that night. You were upset about that one. When you and I were talking on the phone before we had our pick, I said to you, they need to take DeAndre Jordan.

He's a terrific rebounder. You'd seen him for two minutes, but you were all in on him. All in on him. I never saw him play, but I'm all in on him. He's 18 tall. He's a rebounder. Okay. So they mess that one up.

2009, they didn't have a pick. You think? 2010, Avery Bradley at 19. It's a good draft. He's an okay ball player. Oh, stop. Avery Bradley's good. Come on.

Don't do that. You rate him much higher than I do. The 2012 had two picks in a row, 21 and 22. It took Jared Sollinger and Fab Mello. Oh, we'll'd that work out? The next eight... They're both out of the league, by the way. The next eight picks were all terrible,

but then the second round in that draft had Jay Crowder, Draymond Green, Chris Middleton, and Will Barton, all from 30 to 40. Wait a minute, we didn't draft Jay Crowder, Draymond Green, Chris Middleton, and Will Barton, all from 30 to 40. Wait a minute. We didn't draft Jay Crowder. No, I'm saying those guys were all in the second round. Instead of taking the two they took.

The year after, they had 16, traded up, and took Kelly Olenek, who you can say what you want, but I went to Wiz Celtics Game 7 with you, and you were chanting Kelly, Kelly at the top of your lungs. So I'm going to give that a win. Believe me, I was not chanting Kelly, Kelly. You were chanting Kelly, Kelly, and you were like, oh my God, it's like Larry Bird came back to life.

I totally remember that. Okay. But they did pass on Giannis So we should mention that Really? He was sitting there? Yeah Tough one 2014 Marcus Smart 6 pick The next 6 picks

Were Julius Randle, Nick Stauskas Noah Vonley, Alfred Payton, Doug McDermott And Dario Sarge I still support the Marcus Smart pick. I'm sorry. Well, you're higher on him than I am, too. I think I could go out there and shoot 28%, by the way. You like Marcus Smart.

Now you're just being a dick. So, 2015, you were not happy about this draft. Rozier at 16 RJ Hunter at 28 and then Jordan Mickey at 33 you'd do all those picks again and I remember when

you know I don't know whether I remember when they took Rozier and the next pick was uh Porter that Chicago took no Portis was like five picks later. Okay, but Porter would have helped us. He certainly, you know, he fills the need. We didn't need,

we don't need 12 guards on our team. So the Rozier pick was puzzling. So they had, so here's some of the guys in that draft because they had three picks and they just didn't do well. Sam Decker was 18.

Portis was 22. Larry Nance Jr. was 27, who turned out to be a good bench player. Harold on the Rockets, 32. Willie Hernan Gomez, who's good. Let's stop for a minute. You and I really liked Harold. We did. He at least rebounds.

And we took people that aren't even on our team anymore instead of Harrell. This one's going to hurt your feelings. We took Jordan Mickey at 33 and Rashawn Holmes went 37, the guy that you wanted the Sixers to include in that trade. Yeah. And then last year, just to wrap it up, Jalen Brown at three. I still would

stand by that pick. I would have taken Murray, the shooter. You just said we had too many guards. Now you're going to take another guard. French Draymond at 16. And then we took Zizic at 23, who's going to be on the team next year, and you're going to love him. guard. French Draymond at 16. And then we took Zizic at 23, who's going to be

on the team next year, and you're going to love him. I don't know. I think Ainge is a fine drafter. He's not a bad drafter. I don't know where that narrative got started. I don't think... I think he's had some swings and misses. But, you know, they picked some

good players. Okay. Okay. You must be doing a podcast with Angelator today, so if you want me to go along with you, I will. No, listen, I was very unhappy at a couple of those drafts, and I do think the Rozier draft, they missed out on a bunch of chances, too. The two that stand out as just felt bad in the moment and then turned out to be bad were the Rozier draft and then the Sollinger-Mello draft, which was just crazy that we just didn't get anybody who really helped the team out of those two drafts. And the Rozier, I mean, we had three

picks. And just missed on all of them. You can hit a home run on one of them. And we just don't. We just didn't. So wait a second, because we

got to go. So quickly, if they traded the number three pick in Crowder for Jimmy Butler and we ended up turning that number one pick into Jimmy Butler and that Laker pick, are you down with that? I'm good with that. Okay. I'd start the Jay Crowder fan club in Chicago.

Yeah, would you help Jay pack to make sure he got on the plane? I'd make sure he was able to fly first class. And then, if they kept number three and took Jason Tatum, who, by all accounts, has that kind of Paul Pierce-ish

small forward, just knows how to put the ball in the basket guy, you wouldn't be excited for that? Well, I'll be real excited when they take the team photo of Tatum standing next to Gordon Haywood, standing next to Jake Crowder, standing next to Jalen Brown. And we have four guys that are the same guy.

Sure, that's real exciting. Tate, my dad thinks we should have a Senior Citizen podcast on The Ringer where he just talks to other old disgruntled sports fans. Will it be at 5 o'clock? Yeah, that's true. We could put it on. I have a fan base that thinks the same way I do. We call it the Blue Plate Special.

You just talked to other people over 65 about sports. I think it's a winner. All right. You know who our first guest would be? Who? Danny Ainge. Talk about the draft. Just go through all the picks?

Yeah. I'm with you my final verdict on this trade which took 90 minutes to get to is that I like moving back and getting the extra asset I wish we had gotten more I don't think we got enough for the pick that's where I stand

I agree with that yeah and that's how I'm feeling too I think the mentality of it was fine I agree with it I don't think there's any way to know if Fultz was going to be the best guy. We certainly didn't need another guard if you're trying to build a team short-term, long-term. But I just don't understand how they didn't get more

because Fultz was so appealing for the Sixers and was just the perfect pick for them, and they had the assets to overpay for him. And I just wish we had gotten that third piece whether it was a pick swap whether it was Rashawn Holmes whether it was Sarich and then we threw something else in the trade whatever it had to be I wish we had

gotten I feel like we got like 85 cents in the dollar for it for what the possibility was you throw Jake Crowder in there and you get Sarich and Holmes back with the draft pick. Then I'm happy. And now the Philly fans are unhappy.

But yeah, like we throw in our 2018 first and they throw in Sarich. There was more to the trade that I felt. It just felt like the Sixers were willing to overpay for that pick and we got them to slightly overpay but not overpay,

and that's my regret. I kept waiting for the one more piece to be announced, and I guess obviously there's nothing more to it. All right, Dad. I feel badly for Rick Grossbach when he has to announce the pick on Thursday night. Yeah, it's not going to be a kind reception. Unless they trade it for Jimmy Butler, they'll be fine.

All right, Dad, I'll talk to you this week. When do I get my contract from my podcast? Coming up soon? Oh, wait a second. One more thing. Binge Mode has convinced you to watch Game of Thrones, and now you're on season five. Do you want to give your quick one-minute recap

on your first four seasons of Game of Thrones? Well, for a number of years, you've been after me saying that you knew that I liked Lord of the Rings, and you said that I would really get into Game of Thrones, and I was convinced I wouldn't. And because of that podcast a couple weeks ago, I had to watch the first episode of year one, and now I'm binge-watching them in year five, and you finish an episode and you have to know what happens next, so you watch the next episode, and I think it's just unbelievable. It's like, I love The Wire, but this is really good. This is really well done, and I'm curious to know where it's heading.

So you listened to episode one of Binge Mode's Game of Thrones with Mally Rubin and Jason Concepcion, then watched the first episode, and then you are now plowing through Game of Thrones, and you've put down four live seasons in two weeks. I'm on year five. Most shocking moment so far? Probably the Red Wedding. most shocking moment so far um probably the red wedding um i didn't see that coming probably the second most shocking was when he cut the uh guy's hand off right um the guy's hand most shocking was how terrifically they filmed the Siege of the Wall scene.

That was great. How many characters do you actually know the names of? Oh, Tarion. He's the short guy? I don't know who he is, but he's the short guy. He's dead? Yeah. Oh, the short guy.

The names aren't important. I can visually recognize everybody. Okay, good. All right. Well, when Game of Thrones is on this summer, I'm going to have you on the pod every week to recap for the last five minutes of each pod. Or maybe you'll be doing that for the Blue Plate Specials pod. I don't know.

America, if you want a Blue Plate Special pod hosted by my dad, definitely email us. Yeah, you might get a lot of responses. I might. Who knows? The internet never ceases to amaze. All right, Dad, thanks for coming on. I'll talk to you this week. Talk to you, bye. All right.

Let's give some thanks to CreditWise from Capital One. That's the free app that lets you track the factors that make up your credit health using information from your TransUnion credit report. You can check it anytime without negatively impacting your credit. Download CreditWise today. Thanks again to ProperCloth.

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And we have two more BS podcasts coming this week, at least, plus a ton of awesome video content this week that we have planned on Twitter and Facebook and all of those mediums. So until then, uh, if, if the Celtics do something crazy, we'll also do an emergency podcast, obviously. But until then,

thanks for listening to the marathon Celtics trade podcast. Talk to you soon. I don't have a few years with him on the wayside I'm a person I never was I don't have a few years