The Bill Simmons Podcast - Game 4 Overreactions, CP3’s Stinker, Kawhi Weirdness, and Draft Trades With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: July 15, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Bucks’ Game 4 Finals win over the Suns, tying the series at 2-2 (1:25). They also hit on news of Kawhi Leonard’s injury (41:50), Team USA (55:45), NBA draft lottery prospects, fake trades, and more (1:00:25). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Coming up, we're going to talk about Game 4 of the NBA Finals and a whole bunch more first Pearl Jam. All right, Rosillo is in here. He's wearing his I Am Gonna Defend Chris Paul to the Death T-shirt. Oh, no, that's not what it is. But you have that look on your face.

It was yet another terrible last three minutes of the game for Chris Paul. Add it to the Pantheon. He's a Hall of Famer, but he's clearly hurt. I don't know if we should start there, but we should at least mention there's something really wrong with him. And if you look at the game tonight, the Bucks come back. They win by six, the series is tied 2-2.

And the Suns, they get this monster game from Booker who played 39 minutes, was in foul trouble, but still got to 42 points. And really nobody else does much. Crowder has 15, Chris Paul has 10, Aiton has six, Cam Johnson has 10. But it's like, if I'm a Suns fan, I'm now terrified. Because if I don't have a healthy Chris Paul,

I have one score that I completely trust. And this is now a best two of three. First question, did Chris Paul seem healthy to you? Because I say no. No, but we can't start there. We just can't. I mean, I've had people checking in on me. I just don't think we can.

Because I feel like it's disrespectful, the fact that Buck's even series. But it's your podcast. We can start wherever we want. The funny thing is, I'm start wherever we want the funny thing is i'm actually the biggest story of the game though here's here's the deal um he sucked i the first half i'm like okay is he feeling people out and then the third quarter i'm going all right he's gonna wake up and then you know pat coniston made that first big three the big three hit later with three minutes left then he made that one that hit on above the backboard and i was watching paul grab his wrist and here's what i would ask like he sucked so i'm not defending him everybody's checking in with me and everybody's expecting me to kind of this is going to sound like because i like him i'm making an excuse yeah why can't he

dribble in game four like i don't i don't get it and there were key possessions where campaign was in he actually was decent again after having the worst plus minus for any rotation guy through the first three games. But Paul was waving Payne to initiate the offense, and he was standing in the corner. So either he totally choked and didn't even want to have anything to do with the possessions, or there's also something wrong. But look, he sucked. I can't defend it.

But it sounds like an excuse if we're like, why could he also not dribble all of a sudden tonight? Because that's weird. My thing is, is an injury affecting how somebody plays? And this is one of the best ball handlers, you know, in recent NBA history. And it didn't seem like he could handle the ball at the level that he used to be able to handle it. And it really hurt them a couple of times down the stretch. And the reason I think it's an important storyline is the Suns team now, you know, they played eight guys tonight.

Torrey Craig played 15 minutes, but they lost Sarich, you know, relying on campaign who was pretty good tonight, 17 minutes, nine points. But, you know,

they're really going to have to lean on him if Chris isn't healthy. And then you look at the other side with the box. If Chris isn't healthy, healthy, if he's going to play like this again, the series is over. Well, do you think he has... I mean, are we going to find out after

that he has torn ligaments in his left hand or that he has some sort of severe injury? Because today, leaving this game tonight, I thought to myself, I actually think he's legitimately hurt and they're not telling us. I mean, we might find out something, but to like what magnitude?

Because he still looked pretty good throughout the series so did it happen recently did it happen because i thought he got hit in the clipper series and he had to tape himself up but then he still played well so you know i don't if somebody's hurt that's fine um but i don't always when they play poorly want to say okay well they're only playing because that's what happens a ton too we did that for years all of a sudden somebody would be terrible at the end of a closing playoff game they'd be like oh he's tired like he wasn't tired in game five like golden state went for 73 wins and then they lose a 3-1 lead and people are like yeah they got tired they're like well

they weren't tired when they were up 3-1 against the calves so killing them right so if they'd won 68 regular season games they would have won games five, six or seven like that stupid. So it feels like excuse me. I would just simply ask this. Why can he not dribble now all of a sudden? Whether he fell down, he was bobbling the ball the entire night and he just didn't look comfortable. And then to have him be like, no campaign, you go ahead and start the offense and I'll stick myself in the corner. I'm watching it going, okay, what is going on? Like, is the moment too big for him? Or does he know, like, it's just not happening?

Because, you know, maybe the argument is that the moment was too big for him, which feels really weird because he's had absolutely, like, legacy-defining moments throughout the playoffs. Well, if you're not feeling right and it is a big moment, those two things together can hurt. But five turnovers tonight and it just didn't seem right. I actually think this is a game where if Booker doesn't do what he does, they could potentially lose by 20 because he was the only guy that could get going.

But you talk about the great Game 4s in the finals. Game 4 is always a fun one, right? And we go back to 2016. You mentioned Warriors-Cavs. 2011, Mavs-Heat. 2008 was that Celtics comeback game. 2000 was the Shaq fouls out. Kobe and OT kind of becomes Kobe for the first time.

93, MJ against the Suns. 87 was the junior skyhook and the most devastating miss of my entire life. Bird missing the three in the corner by a split second. 85, DJ made a game winner. 84 was the famous Bird vs. Magic OT game, which swung that series. 1980 was Kareem's, I think, greatest finals moment when Sprains' ankle comes back. Was that game four again? No, I'm screwing that up. That was actually game five, my bad. But game fours, I don't know if this got there. I don't know historically if we'll be talking about, you know, oh yeah. And then 2021, but it had some really great stretches. The Booker

third quarter was outrageous. I mean, that was really like, I was just, we could, you talk and then I'll go after you. But like, I was thinking about him with the heat check guards on big stages. And something historically I felt like was happening. And then the foul trouble derailed it. But it seemed like he was on pace for what? You said easy 50, right? He was making every kind of shot. Yeah, he had 20 at the half.

He had 18 in the third quarter. The foul trouble. We'll get the Phantom. Oh, my God. The no call when he was actually trying to take the foul, which actually is worse that Booker was trying to foul. Right. Fouled him, and then he fouled him a second time on the same play.

And they actually had another foul they didn't call on him later, but now the game had kind of run. Like, the weird thing about Booker is because coming into this, you're like, okay, if Phoenix goes up 3-1, you imagine Booker's going to respond at some point because he was so bad in game three. I mean, he was terrible in stating where he is among NBA shot makers. But then he has the kind of night-to-night where he was absolutely carrying him. Nobody else had double figures until very late in the game, because again, Paul was terrible. You're never going to go to eight and enough. Bridges can be zero points or 18 points. Crowder's been steadier, even though he missed the first couple shots. I thought he really gave him something and then hit those free throws there again late. So honestly, I wouldn't call it a great game.

There's one stat in particular that means everything. Milwaukee had 34 extra chances in comparison to Phoenix's. They had 12 less turnovers, so they're plus 12, and then 12 more offensive rebounds. So despite the shooting numbers and some of the offense that they got away from, which I want to get to a little bit later, because finally we saw that Giannis Middleton two-man game, which basically was unstoppable at the end and Middleton was great.

The Giannis block on Aiton is the play from this game. Like if Milwaukee comes back and wins an NBA championship, I think Giannis' block on Aiton where his back is to Aiton, he turns, it's clean at the rim, no no foul that to me is like the image of this series if milwaukee wins a title and he even got the green block by anted a cupo he right he went to that uh lebron 2016 thing yeah look mark jackson keeps calling booker a superstar in this series and to me superstar, superstars reserve for a very, very small list of players. And one of the biggest quality, I think if you're an actual superstar

is even if you're not having a great game, you're still impacting it in all these different ways. Like your version of an average game is as good as anybody else's game. And I think why Booker's a star and you saw it tonight, but he also has games like

game three where he disappears. There's a consistency that he just doesn't have. And he was magnificent tonight. Giannis didn't really have it tonight. Still finished with 26 and 14, eight assists where he should have more assists. They missed a bunch of open threes that he was created for people and he had the two biggest blocks of the game. And as you said, his block on Aiton was the defining play of this game. And I just thought over and over again, he was doing positive stuff, positive things. There was even some really kind of high-level, high-IQ stuff where he was getting rid of the ball when he was getting fouled. Instead of shooting it, he was turning them into passes last second so he wouldn't have

to go to the free throw line. Did you notice that? He did that at least twice. Then there was another time when he got rid of the ball right as they were about to foul him. But I thought really high end game from him. But the Booker thing, I stand by the shot making thing. You saw it tonight.

He made like 10 different types of shots in this game. You had him ahead of Steph, though. They were bankers. I just couldn't accept it. Follower is. What about that play when Holiday was like, all right, fuck this. This guy's not scoring anymore in the third quarter and basically climbed in his jersey. And Booker did. He was at the foul line. He was doing this herky-jerky Earl Monroe, turning, turning, turning. And then

finally, Holiday never left. And he still made this shot with Holiday basically like hanging all over him. I thought it was that seven for seven in the third quarter was all-time stuff. I mean, this is the biggest stage we have, you know? And the rub for him is, can he do it more consistently? That's the difference between star, superstar. I think tonight he would have had 50-plus, and I do think those fouls, you know, you got to figure out a way to stay on the court when you're that hot. He fouled out, and they just didn't call it.

You know how they have for NFL, like, you know, it started with quarterback camps out here in California. Like all the QBs come out here to work out now in the LA area, you know, the OC, maybe even San Diego, but the entire coast down, it feels like quarterbacks come out here. So then the receivers are like, well, we need to do this. And then I think the Titans did it in Nashville. Then the O-line guys got together this past week. There needs to be, do you take bad fouls in your

really good player camp for NBA guys? Because the number of fouls that guys just waste for the clear path one that he could have been called for, like it's just never worth it. Like it's early in the game. What about the foul and the rebound when he knocks somebody into the basket support? And then I actually thought Tucker, that was a tough call. But honestly, between Tucker and Crowder and everybody falling down all over the place, it kind of evens out. But if you're a Bucs fan, if you had lost this game tonight and Booker doesn't get the sixth foul there where he's trying to take it,

which again is the more egregious thing that it was such an idiotic decision not to even be called, it felt like Milwaukee was the right team to win this tonight and i'd also say back to like the drew holiday thing because he just can't shoot consistently enough and it's been constantly disappointing his defense is wearing chris paul down so i don't know if we're going to find out about something else but when drew picks him up like that and then tucker is chasing him and then tucker's making chris paul have to find him you know what i mean like there's there's some plays in there where I think it's physically taxing on Paul maybe that's part of the equation of this like there was a huge offensive rebound

by Drew Holiday underneath the basket and and Paul just wasn't ready to box him out properly and Drew got a huge offensive rebound Tucker makes him fight him for rebounds because Tucker doesn't give him anything even though tucker you know the stat line you'd look at it be like what did he bring tonight so i think drew's tenacity has picked up dramatically since points of game two and even though he can't shoot it he was good in game three uh that's i think a big part of slowing down the perimeter stuff of phoenix getting set up well and some miles on paul these last three rounds too this is somebody who's been in the 30 to 32 range in the regular season.

At halftime, eight players had played more minutes than him. And when they brought him back in, he was at like 24 minutes. So they paced him. And we got like three days off here. So that's the flip side, right? But he's still playing. He's been playing 37, 38, 39 minutes a game now for five weeks so if he's not hurt that's the only other reason it's not enough that he choked tonight yeah it's not enough for me if it then if

it's that then it's all on him um until you know we if we were to ever find out something about the risk but i'm not going to accept like when you have three days off i don't yeah you can't just be like hey now i'm tired at game four i don know. I just don't accept that one as much. I might be wrong. I was thinking about he checked guards on this stage. How many in history

and actually went through as Booker was doing his thing because obviously you have MJ and Kobe. I think Reggie could have had a game like the game Booker was headed for. Jerry West, Hondo, Dwayne Wade,

even though maybe not the same kind of three-point range, but he's in there. I think, I think Andrew Tony's in there. Nice. Um, and Sam Jones and then maybe Joe Dumars, Joe Dumars had a couple moments on big stages where he would just be complete. He wouldn't do it for four quarters, but he would do it for like a quarter and a half where you would be like, wow, why doesn't this guy average 35 a game? That's really it. The two guard position. Um, it's, it's not exactly loaded with guys who could do this. I mean, you have, you could have like the clay type of heat check, but not,

I'm talking about shot making. This is why I love Tony. I ride for Andrew Tony. He had a five year stretch there where he was just unstoppable. And it was, it was 20 footers, 15 footers going to the basket. And you, you just kind of couldn't handle him and booker reminded me andrew tony tonight they i know he gets compared to kobe because mark jackson loves the and kobe bryant told him be legendary and that's what he's doing tonight i know that everyone loves that story but he doesn't play like kobe bryant to me he plays way more like andrew tony um mean, Chuck Knobloch told me to fuck off one night too, but I don't get to put that on my shoes. So, you know, there's just

so many like, we've really pushed the limits of what some of these stories are. Hey, should you have thrown Manu in there? I'm just trying. I love that you put Dumars in there. I love that you put the Boston Strangler in there.

You know, Manu, he had a couple runs in the 2000s. I don't think he could do it for a whole game, but definitely a half. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think Manu belongs. I'm looking at one of the Dallas series here. I'm going to add him. I'll add him.

I'm not messing with your history. I know what tier you're at, what tier I'm at. We're talking historical perspective here. No, I think Mato's a good call. I'm just happy I got Andrew Toney in there because I do feel like he's been slept on completely. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

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facts, like the fact that York U graduates have a 90% employer satisfaction rate. That's because across its three GTA campuses, York U's programs are strategically designed to prepare you for a meaningful career and long-term success. Join us in creating positive change at yorku.ca slash write the future. Chris Middleton, 40 points, 24 in the second half. And this is another one, right? He's a star. He can have these nights where he can win a half for you. I don't think he can do all four quarters,

but he can win you a half and he can get confident. He could get locked in. I thought in this series, I thought he was having a lot of trouble getting going against bridges. And then Cam Johnson would come in and there was always like Crowder long guys to throw at him. And he was kind of having trouble getting this. And then they finally unlocked it tonight with that little Yana screen. I, I I'm surprised the Yana screen worked as well as it did. I don't know if the sons were like, we're getting tired at the end, but it seemed like really easy points. What's interesting about the 40 that he had,

it felt like he was missing some makeable shots a little earlier in the game. If you go back and you watch the tape, I bet he missed five 15-footers that seemed like layups for him in the fourth quarter. Hot game for him. Start of something that they can take into the last three here? Or is this just who he is, where he can have a shitty game one night,

really good half the next thing? Because to me, this just kind of seemed – it's the ebb and flow. He's like the ocean. I thought it was so good tonight because they needed it. Because Giannis, he took his first shot like eight minutes into the game. And it was – he had a layup in transition and then he had the dunk put back and he took two threes that was his first quarter shot attempt thing and then we also continue this trend of Giannis like apparently just hyperventilates to the point where he has to come out after a couple

minutes and Jared Greenberg at TNT when they were doing a previous game I think it was against Brooklyn like he tweeted out hey Giannis is like leaving the game he's exhausted and I'll I'll admit, like I saw the tweet, it was like, ah, whatever, like, I'm sure it'll be fine. And then he was on it early. He's like, no, I'm here at the game and it's weird. And now this is happening where he has to sub himself out. And I think there's a weird part of it where offensively it's same as like Booker when he is in foul trouble and he's out. It's not like automatically like, Hey, here's the ball back, fix everything. You know, there's a flow to this stuff. So I just thought that in the times where you wanted more from yannis middleton carried him he really carried him to close there's so much room for him on that shot he's got to hit

those shots he had one of that big jumper kind of going left to right that was that was huge and you're right like i mean he's 15 to 33 there was a stretch before he had some of those makes late we were like he's putting up numbers but he's not necessarily shooting. That's great. But I think it's a bigger point, Bill. Like that's why I always say there's probably six guys. Maybe it's seven. Everybody's list is probably a little bit different. But, you know, we give LeBron shit or we give Kawhi shit.

It's like actually these guys are like 30 every playoff game no matter what. Again, it's just do you have the closing moments? And tonight Middleton played like one of those guys, but I'm not going to be shocked if he ends up with 14 on 6 of 20 in one of the games either. Well, it's why Anthony Davis, who has superstar talent, I don't really consider him a superstar either because I don't know if he can stream together. Did you say that last year?

Well, he had the moments, right? He had the series where he looked good, but then the previous series, you're wondering what's going on with him. And, you know, he showed he can do it for a couple of rounds in a row, but I still don't trust him. Giannis seems like no matter how he's shooting, no matter how he's feeling,

he's going to impact the game. And I think that's the last level for a superstar. I think Durant's there. I think LeBron's there. I think Kawhi's there when he's healthy. Dame and Curry are probably there. They'll have games where they just miss everything, but I think that's just the nature

of their jobs. But the list is less than 10 is my point. It's less than 10. It's less than 10. Absolutely. And that's why we have the draft coming up and I'll just read draft comps and it's like the 14th pick and they're going reminds me a little of Luka and you're like,

Jesus. Luka's another one. Right, but Luka's another one you need to add because, I mean, it's not the playoff success

but the resume of games. Yeah, he'll get his numbers. If Luka gets 30, it feels like a disappointment. Right. And he'll get his 10 assists, he'll get all the stuff

and to me, it's like this is the next step for Tatum, right? He's at that Devin, same Devin Booker level where he can do it. He can look like a superstar on the night, but it's the consistency. And it's also like, how do I affect the game when I don't totally have it? And that's what's been to me, the three honest games in a row are also impressive for different reasons. Like he, we talked about it in the spot after game three, like so overpowering in game three. And just like this, one of the all time, I'm just going to destroy you. Like I'm in a Tarantino movie type of physicality, the whole thing. And today he

didn't have that, but he still figured out how to pick his spots, how to do some stuff. I think his playmaking has been really good. And Holiday was 4 for 20 in this game, and it felt like Giannis set up at least seven or eight of those, and Holiday just couldn't make anything. But to win a game at home when Holiday goes 4 for 20 is kind of amazing in itself, right?

Yeah, it's all those extra chances. I felt like I listened to you in KOC after game three, and I was in the car being like, like this janice run is incredible but ayton played 24 minutes in game three it was a massive rebound disparity you know in game two when he went crazy in the third quarter he hit a million free throws and he hit his free throws like so i'm like all right so now he's making free throws and now eight isn't even out there so then you add in the fact that ayton played it wasn't a foul trouble issue. Aiton was a monster on the boards.

Yeah. They did a good job. I think trying to figure out different ways to keep it fresh against Giannis. Um, I've, I've looked, whatever my level of being impressed with Giannis was,

and it was very high. It's at another level, win or lose the NBA finals. But the fact that you have a shot maker in Middleton, I mean, basically it was like two, the, you know how it always comes down. I was like the best

two players for Milwaukee were just way better. Like who's even the second best player for Phoenix tonight? I guess it'd be Aiton because of the rebounds. A little Jay Crowder. Nobody gets poked in the face better than Jay Crowder. He gets poked in the face twice a game. It goes down like he's Mr.

Fuji. I would like a Judge Judy episode with Jay Crowder and PJ Tucker as the plaintiff and defendant. And then campaign comes in as a witness. And I would just, Judge Judy, just like, I don't believe anybody. Yeah. Just leave by courtroom. I have some things to throw at you. So PJ Tucker, are we sure he's good? You've been on this for a bit. I have some things to throw you. So, P.J. Tucker. Are we sure he's good? You've been on this for a bit.

What? The stats are not good. What's good about him? One missed three. When he gets locked up against Devin Booker or whatever, it's like, oh, he's guarding Devin Booker. And then Devin Booker just goes right by him. Like I said, Durant just did whatever he wanted against him. And then on the other end he just

stands in the corner you don't have to guard him he took one wide open three that was at a huge part in the second half bricked it he had zero points zero points five rebounds in 29 minutes he had five fouls three of them were really bad fouls by the way um and it's just kind of amazing to me that the Bucks it's two, two in the finals. They have no bench. I mean, Jeff Teague again, played 11 minutes today. You're not going to believe this, but he didn't have a field goal. You have Portis was one for six.

Connaughton goes four for nine. It feels like a fucking miracle. He had nine rebounds. Like, oh my God, they got something from a bench guy and nobody else played. It's like, I just can't believe they have a chance to basically win the title with four and a half guys okay i think the the problem like you're right but you have to add the other part of it because phoenix is basically playing seven guys they like and the seventh is tory craig pain finally was good tonight he's had the worst plus minus basically in every game

of major rotation players. Like he had that nice game against the Clippers and then it felt like every night he made a layup, the announcers would be like, campaign is meant all aboard the Payne train.

And you're like, he's scary. If I'm a Suns fan, I'm scared to death every time he has the basketball, which again makes the Chris Paul decision to be like, no, you've got this.

Well, you also, I never think his, I never think his threes are going in, do you? Ever. When campaigns line up, I'm like, that's a brick. Rebound. Torrey Craig had a rebound where Payne was wide open at the left break, all right? And it was in the first half.

And Craig had it, and Payne was so wide open. My eyes told me Craig's like, I guess I got to pass it to you. Fuck. and Craig like had it and pain was so wide open. I almost like my, my eyes told me Craig's like, I guess I got to pass it to you. Fuck. He got it. Like was a little slow with it, but it was the right basketball play.

And he's like, all right, this is going to break. It's going to break the rim. And he, and he, but look, he,

he made some buckets for him because Paul was so bad tonight. They, they needed anything they could get out of him. But I think the bucks rotation, you're right, but it's not like Phoenix's rotation is more than seven guys they even trust. Well, and I don't trust... Mikael Bridges on the road two straight games just looked like a young guy who is going to be way better in a home playoff game than he is in a road playoff game.

Cam Johnson has been a little more chest hairy in these games, but those guys, Phoenix is just better at home. And if Chris is healthy, I agree with you. I think the Suns should probably win game five. This is what the finals is supposed to be.

Home team's supposed to win the first two. We're supposed to go back to the other team's place. They're supposed to win two and we're supposed to go to game five. So that's what happened. And as we know, I love it when a guy comes on and says, the series does not start.

It's one of the worst cliches. I think Bill Parcells said it. And everybody just repeated it. It's funny to say though. I love saying it with the sarcastic you know, Ryan, as you know, the series doesn't start until the home team loses.

So if the home team wins every game, the series never started. I remember Parcells was so good so early. He had this Bon Jovi slash Tony Soprano personality. And everybody would just repeat what he said all the time. And I remember he'd be like, yeah, you take the wrong quarterback. It sets you back 10 years. And you're like, 10? 10 years?

Yeah, maybe like two. 10 seems long. So anyway, I don't know. That's one of those deals where I think people repeat this stuff so much. You're like, wait, does the series really only start when that happens? Because this feels like it started. I'm good. Chris Ryan's been on this.

I'm good with the shot of everybody outside of the stadium cheering wildly. I'm just good. It's great. I'm glad fans can gather again, but I don't really care. Just show me the basketball game. Where are you on the two 60-second segments

for the halftime show? What do you mean 60? where do you get 60 i actually did some of the math today the the first segment in the halftime show is 65 seconds i brian curtis confirmed for me then the second segment the oculus segment was 40 man so combined it was less than two less than two minutes combined it's impossible. You did that show. Do you know how hard it is to be like,

hey, everybody, we've got 60. It gets cut off. Somebody's talking and it gets cut off every game. Here's how I would describe a studio show for the people at home if you want to know what it's like. Go to dinner with three friends, sit down, take turns talking for three minutes, and then have the waiter come over for the next six,

have the waiter leave, talk again for two and a half minutes, then have the waiter come back and just repeat this for a half hour where you have 11 minutes of talking where all of you just take turns to talk and then ask yourself after that half hour whether it was a good conversation or not because I guarantee you'll say no. We should try this at Manhattan Beach with you, me, and two of the LA Kings from the 2014 Cup team.

You, me, Matt Green, and Jared Stoll. We'll just sit around. We'll do it. We'll try to see if we can have a real conversation in three and a half minutes where nobody's allowed

to have banter back and forth. Yeah, but Stoll is from Canada, so he's just going to be nice and he won't care. A lot of nodding. He won't care if he leads the segment. And then Matt Green's,

like, arguably, even as nice as Stoll is. Yeah. So they'd probably just watch you and I and then one of them be like, you guys get paid for this? Yeah, I can't believe it. What's going on here?

It's halftime. Presented by Oculus. Giannis and Chris Webber, 2002. I just want to do a littleftime presented by Oculus. Um, Giannis and Chris Weber, 2002. I just want to do a little compare and contrast. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Hold on. I'm going to, I'm going to land this plane. I know I started out, started out rocket. I'm going to land it. Um, Giannis was doing the thing where he was, he had the ball top and he,

all he wanted to do is kind of feed Chris Middleton, right? He was doing the 25 feet from the hoop, a lot of handoff screens, stuff like that. Didn't really want to shoot himself. Right. The difference between him and C-Web, and I don't feel like C-Web gets enough credit for just how terrified he was in the 2002 Kings-Lakers series

and some of those games, was he actually just wanted to get rid of the ball. He was doing those handoffs because he was so terrified he was either going to get fouled or going to have to make a play. And he just didn't want to be the GOAT. He was like, please, Mike, baby, take this. Giannis was doing the 2002 C-Web, but his brain was also calculating the possibilities of

as soon as anything happens, I'm rolling the basket with my hands up. I'm doing stuff like he was active, but he wasn't a threat from 25 feet. And I think if you ever see those Kings Lakers games from O2 and you watch how they use C-Web, it's very similar to the honest stuff with the exception of C-Web didn't, his brain wasn't working that way. He kind of didn't want to be in the action, which is why it was so funny to hear him announce when he would criticize these different guys for where's so-and-so. And it's like, I, we asked that your whole career.

So you're a good guy to ask the question. But anyway, I had to mention that I think to, to be the, I don't really want to shoot guy in the last three minutes, but still be able to be offensively impactful was pretty, it's a pretty hard plane to land. I thought he landed it. No, that's really interesting because more often than not, especially when we start talking about these tier one guys, the guy, the expectation is like

anything below thirties, a disappointment in these playoff games where we'll be shocked when they have a bad playoff game. You know, like there's, there's other guys in the second tier that we kind of hitting at here. Like if Tatum were in the second tier that we're kind of hitting at here. If Tatum were in the Eastern Conference Finals, from what I've seen at this point, and he had like 16 and didn't hit a bunch of shots, I don't know that I'd be shocked. I'd be shocked if that happened to a healthy Kawhi. So back to the point.

Giannis, I think that's a great point, man. I'm totally with you on it. I appreciate the thank you. No, but it's a good point because it's like i'm still impacting the game a ton even though and by the way the thing that i do the worst would be to settle would be to settle in some of these and some guys are such superstars they're like you know what this isn't the best shot but like i gotta take something and do something here

it's just scary because the two stay with yannis on that role they just like we don't want to let you get any momentum so there's always this kind of break of, hey, Middleton, you're going to have some space. And if you're ready when the space happens, you're going to get a really good look.

And that's, again, what I thought, close it out. One of your funniest lines you had going back to your prime days. Thank you. Long time ago. Before Garnett was a Celtic, because you were like,

I hope Garnett and Weber end up in the same team. So at the end of a playoff game, they can just pass it back and forth to each other at the top of the hot potato Olympics. Yeah. Look, it's not, it was, this is not an unfair, like it's not an unfair criticism of the time. The tapes are the tape. Go look on YouTube. They're all there. You can watch, you can watch for yourself. Uh, the thing with Giannis, I do think for a month now he's figured out a couple of things.

And one of them today was just like, just go hard to the basket, just lurch into people. I'm home. I'm probably getting these calls. And there were a couple of calls that were a little shaky, but for the most part, I just thought his heart was in the right place with the decisions he made. Pretty much. He took a terrible three. When he takes threes.

Now the announcers react like a child's been left in a hot car or something like they're completely, completely unhappy and outraged. Oh my God. He took a 25 footer. Um, but that's Southern Mark Jackson, Southern Mark Jackson. Um, but yeah, so, Hey, can I, can I finish one thing though? Cause you, we, we went off because you went off it you were beating up on PJ Tucker again which is definitely one of your moves not sure he's good okay but the effort that he makes you match

with the way he just crashes the glass all of that stuff like he makes it's not that he's going to get every rebound he makes your fighting for the rebound that much more of a pain in the ass there are little things in there and value and yes I'm not saying he shuts down Booker he's going to get every rebound. He makes your fighting for the rebound that much more of a pain in the ass. There are little things in there and value. And yes, I'm not saying he shuts down Booker.

Clearly, that's not the case tonight. It's a great point by you, but the Kevin Durant thing, like, oh, he's out there to defend Durant. Durant drops to the 40. He's 40 to 50 every game. But switchable perimeter players where it's not, you know, it's not Bryn Forbes,

who now is banished because they feel actually more comfortable with Teague in a bad switch or Connaughton who seems to be somebody that Phoenix wants to go after. But, you know, Phoenix, that stuff that worked in the beginning of the series where it felt like, hey, they can run three different things at you with the high pick and roll. Like they're stopping this action further away from the basket earlier into the shot clock, which has messed up a lot of things.

And then the other part too, is that Lopez was a complete non-factor. They're just using him wrong. I don't get it. I don't know why he's not near the basket. They're just not bringing him back in because, well, they don't want him hunted. So that would be, if this series does turn and Milwaukee ends up winning it,

I think one of the things that we'll look at is going, when they decided they couldn't really play Lopez, I mean, I don't even know how much he played in the second half. They took him out, never brought him back. And so we talked about game one. It was one of those game on Atlanta observations. And he's had games where he actually looks terrific offensively.

But it's something that Buds clearly doesn't want to go to in a closing group with Lopez because they're afraid of him defensively. 0 for 5 from 3. PJ Tucker. So this is a football theory I have. Sometimes the teams will sign the old safety that used to be good. There's

a sense of calm that that guy's out there and the announcer will be like, Ed Reed. Ed Reed's a bad one. You got to do something. Last year, Houston Texans, Ed Reed. Carnell Lake. Whoever. Rodney Harrison near the end. Oh, old veteran, always in the right place, knows what to do. And then you're just watching the game and wide receivers are just

flying by the guy. Everyone's open at all times. Like, oh, veteran. He's breaking up passes that are wildly underthrown. And the announcer's like, oh, veteran savvy. Once again, meanwhile, the guy would have been 10 yards open if the pass had been on thing. I think there's an illusion of competence with PJ Tucker that's important. And I mean this as a compliment. It seems like he's good. So when you're out there, it's like this guy's fighting. He's not afraid. It's a good guy to have out there, right? If you want five guys, especially when you're going to Phoenix for game five, he's not going to be scared. You know, he's going to feel like he belongs.

He's going to switch on D. He's going to talk trash. He's going to argue with the refs. And it feels like somebody you want out there. But then when you actually look at it, it's like, what's this guy actually doing? But so I think you're right, I guess is my point. He does enough stuff that it seems like things are happening,

but I'm not actually sure things are happening. But people think they're happening, which might be half the battle. Having somebody who's not taking shots away from your stars and plays with that level of effort, I think is important. Especially when you're talking about teams that feel like, wait, who are they playing again? Not everybody gets to have eight good players. And the funny thing is, I actually think he moves way more now than he does when he was with Houston.

Yeah, well, it's probably in better shape now. He was glued in the corner. I'm going to talk about Drew Holiday, but let's take a quick break. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit, more cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days, and the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum.

That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. So quickly, my last thought, and then I want to move on. We have to talk about this Kawhi Clippers thing that we have some Olympic stuff. There's some other stuff on the docket. Draft. We're going to talk draft. Yeah, draft. Drew Holiday holiday sometimes he has these games where it feels like in the off season you'll be reading a story about like drew holiday got lasik surgery and he reports he he really sees the ball now he didn't realize he needed it he can look so bad

shooting that it almost seems like his vision is off like he misses like wide right on foul line jumpers. You're like, what is going on? Then other games, he seems fine. I have, I think he's the most confusing player of the playoffs. There's games where he has quarters defensively where he looks like the greatest defensive guard you've ever seen in your whole life.

There's other games where it seems like he's terrified to shoot. There's other games where he seems like I am intent to prove to you that I'm not terrified to shoot. And he just takes terrible shots. Then other times he makes the shots. Then he has like this little back down reverse thing that tiny Archibald used to have where you back the guy down and you kind of drop step, um, the opposite way from where guards usually drop step. And all of a sudden you get like this twisting layup and i just i'm confused by him constantly where do you stand on drew holiday these days

i think he covered it all i just think it's defensive improvement just from his intensity and trying to you know cut the head off the snake here with chris paul the last couple games has been a big part of their turnaround so the shooting's been terrible other than game three um and i mean he just i can't believe he's going to shoot this poorly, right? Like this. And then it seems like they kind of know how bad it's going offensively. So he's not really a big part of what they're doing. You know, it's either.

What would you tell Drew? What would you tell him tonight if you're buddies with him? What would your text be? Like, do you know how many picks we gave up for you? True. Hold on, Drew. I'm going to text you. I just want to text you every pick we gave up.

Now I know Eric Bledsoe was in the trade and that was a bonus this is how good two picks this is how good people thought you were this is the market for you so um you know he i want to give him credit because i really think the defensive stuff has slowed phoenixes or just it's made phoenix like phoenix in the beginning of this series you're going all right so you can run this screen and then paul can throw it toiton if you keep two with him. If you switch it, then Paul is going to beat the big that he switched on to. If you come off of somebody else, Paul's going to find that guy. Like Paul was just absolutely puppet mastering this entire offense. And they've, they found a way to slow it down. And look, and Paul was so bad tonight. It wasn't just because of the D. I mean, he sucked. So I'm getting texts now from people. They're checking on me and I'm like,

look, what did you think I was going to say? No, he was actually just feeling him out for game five. Like, I got nothing for you. He was awful. What do you think

the line is for game five? I have it. I just looked on the FanDuel Sportsbook app. Phoenix minus three, two and a half? Phoenix minus four. Seems a little high

considering we don't know what's going on with our guy Chris. I bet on Milwaukee to win in six before the series. It's five to one. You did? Yeah. That's right. We talked about that. That's great value. So good for you. Well, it didn't feel like great value when they were down

to nothing. But that's what happens though. I mean, it's like no one's ever watched i look i'm just gonna repeat myself but you know phoenix is up 2-0 and it's like oh and i look one of the things i thought about the series even though i picked phoenix i go you know there's gonna be times where milwaukee's size feels like it's overwhelming for a small group like phoenix actually you know the whole reason we cared about the lakers match up there. And, and guess what? Like, okay, now it's two, two and Phoenix is probably going to look better at home. And they'll probably, you know what I mean? Like, remember the 99 Knicks when Ewing goes, they make the finals, Ewing goes down and they basically had six guys. And there was a point in that series where it was like, oh man, they're actually trying to win the title, getting huge minutes from Chris Childs and Chris Dudley.

Like this probably isn't happening, but it was kind of their Jedi mind tricked you into thinking it could happen. I wonder which one of these two teams will have that realization after the finals. We're like, oh man, what were we thinking? The Bucks had four guys. So how did we ever talk ourselves

into them winning the title? Or conversely, the Suns had one reliable scorer and seven guys total. Why did we ever think they were going to win the finals? I feel like however this plays out, we're going to be saying, how did we think that team was going to win afterwards? I just don't know who the team is. That's why it's such a weird finals. Yeah, but I mean, that's the playoffs. So I imagine if we're doing this in five years and somebody goes, hey, that was weird. How did that happen? And then we're going to go over all the injuries. You're like, mean, that's the playoffs. So, I imagine if we're doing this in five years and somebody

goes, hey, that was weird. How did that happen? And then we're going to go over all the injuries. You're like, oh, that's right. That happened. But none of it matters now, you know. But the thing is, if Milwaukee wins these next two, it'll be, I would say the main reason would be because Giannis kicked all kinds of ass and then we leave this series

with the, oh, that was the Giannis series. That was when Giannis became an all time guy that was when he moved into this other sphere and then we'll remember the series that way if Phoenix wins it'll be like a little more of the man weird year

Chris Paul broke his hand in game three the Phoenix won the title like what the fuck happened Phoenix had seven guys. Campaign made the game winning three in game seven. Banked in a three to win it. Alright, Kawhi and the Clippers.

Campaign gets full mid-level. He didn't call glass, but we're not gonna hold against him. Kawhi and the Clippers. So we find out literally a month after Kawhi hurt his knee in that Clippers jazz game, that he had a partially torn ACL. This was the weirdest kind of secret NBA story of the last month. I know you and I talked about it privately. We

didn't talk about it on the pod that much because we didn't really have information. We did. We did. But we just didn't know what to say. Well, we said, hey, I've heard everything from acl to not and that he's trying to get a second opinion but i didn't say like hey this is exactly what i'm hearing because i didn't know you know and that's that's the whole point with kawaii so i know we touched on it but we threw it out as like here's all the bullshit that's out there but we don't know so yeah i didn't feel you know i don't know the one thing we did say in the pod and, I didn't feel, you know, I didn't know.

The one thing we did say in the pod, and I think I said it and you backed it up, was like the Clippers are just in the dark. Because this is the experience of having Kawhi on your team is he just doesn't communicate. So now comes out the ACL thing. And I think both of us have heard that this was late arriving news for the Clips. Yeah, I think the Clippers knew, but they

didn't know officially. And then Kawhi... I guess I just don't understand it. Like, look, if Kawhi's a free agent, everybody wants him tomorrow, even though he's probably going to miss most of the year. And then you don't really know what you have. San Antonio, he didn't trust the doctors. Antonio Daniels, who I went on with in NBA Radio,

who does a great job, he played down there and he told a really good story because I was like, how come every player thinks every team doctor is out to get you? He goes, look, Ryan, I'm telling you straight up. He goes, when I was in San Antonio, the team doctor said, hey, look, if it's a tie, the team pays my check.

So I'm going to think team before you. So when you're a player and you hear that, okay. So then if you go through the timeline, like he goes to Toronto, Toronto was basically afraid of him, Bill, right? Yeah. I was saying to you, they, they wouldn't even make eye contact with him. Yeah. He walks in the room. They all look down. Don't look at him. Don't make eye contact. It's like those stories here about Hollywood stars where you're not allowed

to look at them on the set. So you, you've got that situation. It worked out. It worked out for everybody. You went there, won a ring, you know, and then he gets to the Clippers and you're like, okay, we know we're signing up for something that's a little bit different here. But I think he makes it excessive. I don't know if it's just a massive distrust. I know it sounds old and lame to a younger generation, but I still believe in kind of the team before yourself thing a little bit. I would imagine more younger media members think that that's stupid. I'm not saying that as a player, you're just supposed to like follow the team's orders every single time. But I don't look, he's still going to get all his money probably. But at what point do you think it's actually like, hey, could we be a little bit more on the same page here?

Or is that just impossible with Kawhi? Because honestly, I'm not a huge fan of it, even though I think he's and understand how great he is. There seems like a big distrust going back to the Spurs. The Raptors, as we said, it was very, very, they left them alone. Same thing with the Clippers. This is a real issue though,

that if he had a knee injury that happened a month ago and now it's the partial tear which is basically treated like the full tear so you're talking 10-11 months for the recovery well

we're in mid-July now that takes us to end of March April range which will be in the playoff start next year that means they're a 6, 7, 8 seed, best case scenario, they're not going to have him. Then when he comes back, he's not going to

communicate with them. He'll be on his own timetable. He'll be on his own recovery timetable too. I would say it's more likely he just doesn't play next year. Because from what we've seen from him, he doesn't like playing. He doesn't want to risk it. He doesn't want to get hurt and he wants to play on his own pain timetable. So now we're looking at, I think it's pretty safe to say, I don't think they're a full-fledged cross-off next year,

but I think you can cross them off in pencil when you think like the Warriors are going to be way better next year. The Lakers are going to do stuff. We're going to have the Suns, I think are going to be in a better place. They're going to bring everyone back. Denver, Murray should be back by March range. Luca and Dallas, I'm not sure what's going to happen with that, but you go on down the line and it's like, I just don't see a scenario where they're one of the best six teams. So if you're telling me they're going to be a seven seed or an eight seed, or maybe even in the play-in tournament with Kawhi coming back from an ACL thing,

to me, that's a cross-off. I'll cross them off in pencil, but it's still a cross-off. And my big point here is all the stuff they gave away for this guy, this will be three years where they got within two games of getting out of round two. And that's going to be the legacy of this team. Classic Clippers. It's just, this is why they're the Clippers. They just have the worst luck of, I think, anybody. I don't even know what number. I remember I did the Curse of the Clippers piece

when Blake Griffin got drafted for page two back when my fingers worked. And Blake Griffin was like, I'm not afraid of a curse. I'm not afraid of the Clippers. And I wrote a afraid of a curse. I'm not afraid of the Clippers. And I wrote a whole piece about, you actually should be afraid of the Clippers and here are all the reasons why. And I had a paragraph in there

of all like the knee injuries guys on the Clippers have had. And it was like some of the best players, you know, some of the highest lottery picks of like two generations. And Danny Manning on down, all of them got hurt. And now Kawhi's another one. Um, Elton Brand has this career year out, you know, right before I wrote

that piece, he blew out his Achilles. Blake gets drafted as a rookie. Everyone's excited. He gets hurt. He misses his whole rookie year, but it's just like, I, this franchise and the luck they've had is really, really remarkable. And, you know, there's going to be three years there where all the picks they gave up where they got nothing at all. And how about the contract part of it? Because he's got a deadline in his player option for 36 million, I think in the very beginning of August. And so part of you would say, well, now he's just going to go ahead and pick that up or would he decline it and ask for the four-year extension? But the difference is, is if he picked up the player option, then he can sign a new five-year max, which is like 240 million.

Would you give him that? Honestly, would you give him that? He's had knee issues now for five years. Probably. And now he just has an ACL injury on top of it, on top of all the other knee stuff he has, which we don't even know how bad it was. I know the easiest thing is to say no way you can't do that and it's like okay then what's your plan then what's your plan and honestly like he scares the shit out of me now at this point and the fact that it's like hey if we're gonna give you 240 million can you give us any kind of fucking heads up about anything right is

that okay like can we but the thing is is it's not even worth losing any sleepover because he's just not going to do it. He's not going to operate that way. And you just hear like how when you have Kawhi on your team, you don't really have like, he's just, he's just not. There's a stability piece of it that it's just never going to be there. No, but it's, it's just like, he's not going to do you, hell, it's not even doing somebody a favor. There's just a certain level of, of courtesy you'd expect, but it's just like he's not going to do you... Hell, it's not even doing somebody a favor. There's just a certain level of courtesy you'd expect,

but it's just not. And again, I'm sure some stars are like, who cares, whatever. We're the ones out there doing all this stuff. You're like, all right, man, whatever. This whole playoffs, oh, Kawhi's been so vocal around the team. You're like, what?

The guy hasn't talked in like three years. What are you talking about? He played nine games in 2018. He missed 22 talked in like three years. What are you talking about? And then he played, he played nine games in 2018. He missed 22 games in 2019. He missed, um, I guess nine games in the bubble, bubble season.

Then he missed 20 last year. And then he's going to miss all the ones this year. He's going to turn 31 next year. Well, what would you do? I'd be, I'd be terrified to give him the ones this year. He's going to turn 31 next year. Well, what would you do? I'd be terrified to give him a five-year max. I don't think I would do it. Okay. But you know exactly what's going to happen. Say he goes that route, picks up the option because he's looking for the five-year next year. Picks it up. Every article is going to be, it's actually the knee

is stronger. And since he hasn't played as much, there's more mileage and he's still one of the top five players. All that stuff's going to happen. So if he picks up the option, you have him for next year, that's it. And then you have the option. He could pick up the option and say, I'm now going to leave unless you give me the five-year deal. Why couldn't he just do that now? Or it would have to be a four-year deal now. It's a four-year deal now. It's a tough one i just think we from what we've seen from the clippers they're going to pay him because they're the same team that gave marcus morris 64 million and luke canard 64 million they're just they're going to end up

paying them and probably i just don't recommend it but i don't even know that it's a clipper specific thing because you know durant as soon as he blows the achilles out you ask somebody in golden state like hey and they're like already like this might of course we're going to max thing because Durant, as soon as he blows the Achilles out, you ask somebody in Golden State, of course we're going to max him. There's different durability. To me, he's a safer durability risk. Yeah, he broke his foot

that one year. Broke his foot and he had the Achilles. But for the most part, I just think it feels like Kawhi has been battling stuff for six straight years here. When is the last time he's looked 100% healthy? I'm with you there, but I wouldn't use Durant as the picture of healthier. I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying I think he's a safer bet than Kawhi is. But the other thing you have to factor in, it's like getting rid of the quarterback who sucks. All right, you know, I shouldn't say it. It's like getting around to the quarterback who can't win you a playoff game. And then everybody in the city is mad at the quarterback. They're mad at the GM. They think everybody's an idiot. And then you're like, all right, we know you should replace him too. But then what do you want us to do? Just cut him. And now what? Like, what are we going to do? It's not the exact same thing, but it's the same challenge in the sense

that it's like, okay, I don't want to give him this massive max deal because that's absurd. But then it's like, okay, but what are you going to do now? Because a healthy Kawhi and Paul George still gives you a better chance than probably whatever your backup plan is. That's two years from now. He's going to be so healthy next year when the articles come out. I guess the case for giving them the contract is you could probably always trade them. But it just to me feels feels like... We've seen teams in this situation before.

Remember Washington in the late 2000s with Gilbert? Where Gilbert was eligible for that giant contract. And it's like, well, he's coming off a knee surgery. Probably shouldn't do it. But hey, what's plan B? Got to do it. And then it's like, you've completely crippled your franchise. A little like the John Wall contract.

It just makes me really nervous. You're right to be nervous. With a $105 million salary cap, you're going to give one guy $40 million and you have no idea if he can play 60 games? I don't know if I would do it. Everything you're saying is right. I would sign and trade him. I would sign and trade him.

I would exit playing it right now if I could. I don't know if I could because Kawhi has partially torn ACL and doesn't talk to anybody. Yeah, but then there's also like, what are you going to trick him? Here's the part I don't get. They know right away with ACLs, right? It's torn, it's partially torn, whatever. You know within 24 hours. Why the fuck did it take him a month to have the surgery on? Because it's Kawhi. It's everything we're talking about. It's a bad job by him though. Cause if let's say he gets it in June, let's say he gets it within a week. Now, if it's 10 months, now he's back heading toward the playoffs. Like he can come back like two, three weeks left in the season, but to wait that extra month, like

really fucks the team. Yeah. I'm sure he doesn't care. But I know he cares about his legacy. That's why he went to the Clippers. That's why he hijacked them to trade for Paul George. He clearly cares about being on a winning team and how he's regarded. That's why he didn't want to go to the Lakers. He didn't want to be LeBron's caddy. So he does care about this stuff to some degree.

And he had a chance to win the title with three different teams. And he really set himself back. It's very strange. I think it's one of the weirder stories and what's weirdest to me is that both of us are confident the Clippers didn't really know what was going on until the tail end of this.

Right. I think they suspected. They had an idea. Right. And again, with Kawhi, you never know. I'd heard maybe the delay was because he was looking for another opinion. But the ACL, it's not, this isn't like. How long would it take for, would it go to New Zealand? How long does it take to get an opinion? Hey, look, conclusion of story, great player. We may completely underestimate, we may underestimate that like he kind of sucks to deal with. Well, he certainly had trouble dealing with a team that is an organization that everybody seems to love

for the most part. And then you see the Team USA stuff, and it's like Popovich, Popovich, always wanted to play for this guy. And Kawhi was the one guy who just, for whatever reason, it went completely sideways. He's the only one. It's one of the most surprising AWOL moments

in team sports modern history. It is. Because when that stuff, I remember the first time I heard it, I'd be like, wait, Kawhi? Not Kawhi, he's a spur. He's a spur for life. He's like a patriot.

And I'm not criticizing him for that. Everything he did for Toronto, good for him, It's awesome. Like, I'm just, I don't understand the lack of communication. The thing is,

the reason we're saying all this is we love Kawhi. If you've listened to this podcast and we came on after some of those Raptors games in 2019, like, I think he's one of the 30 best

players of all time. But I also think he's had a really weird career. And if you look at the other guys, like, you know, I have my list. I have him 28th right now. The other guys in that list are all really reliable guys. Pippen, Wade, Isaiah Thomas.

Did you mean Chris Paul? Koozie. Well, Chris Paul is still in that 30 spot, depending on what happens in this Phoenix series. Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Bob Pettit. These guys are all reliable. Pull up Bob. Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Bob Pettit. These guys were all reliable. And I think Kawhi is the one of this whole, in that whole group where it's just like, I don't know what we're getting from this guy.

Pretty strange. Team USA, you famously don't care about international basketball, which is weird because you'll watch Juco kids on YouTube for like six straight hours, but a USA Argentina game with a 41-year-old Luis Scola just doesn't pique your interest. I don't know why it happened, but it just doesn't do much for me. It might be because the Hall of Fame argument thing that I've always brought up.

The quicker you have to tell me you won a gold medal, the worse your case for being a Hall of Famer is. If it's like the second thing somebody says about your player resume, you're like, Olympic gold medalist. It's a good point. I don't even know why it happened. It just sort of happened. Like I'll notice all the international stuff going on. And I was like, yeah, I don't know. I guess I just don't think I'm going to get that much out of it. I guess probably other than watching the other teams.

I watched the under 19 France USA deal. Oh, what do you think of KOC's guy? The seven foot two Ralph Sampson kid from France. He's unbelievable. He's unbelievable. Very Sampson-y. I watched all the YouTube clips. Yeah.

Young Ralph. He's back. French Ralph. Young Ralph. Quicker than Ralph. Ralph was one of the best college players I've ever seen. He's like in the top seven. He really is.

I'll say this about Olympic basketball. KOC and I talked about it the other day. And I was talking about how I really wish they didn't have like that playmaker glue guy whose just main goal was to make everyone else better. It felt like a team that was very similar to watching the Celtics all season of just one-on-one guys, your turn, now you go.

And Dame Lillard, just the classic, dribbles the ball up, finds somebody, but isn't really the traditional point guard, right? He's more of a zero guard. And a couple people texted me, what about Lomelo? Wouldn't Lomelo be more fun on this team than the ghost of Kevin Love? And I got to say, I think Lomelo would have been more fun on this team than the ghost of Kevin Love? And I got to say, I think Lomelo would have been really fun on this team. And I actually got bummed out because I was like, wow,

that way he actually would have been perfect. It would have been really fun to watch Lomelo. He wouldn't have cared if he scored. I think he would have pulled some sort of togetherness out of this team as we had it in the Olympics. But anyway, probably would have benched him the last four minutes because of defensive... Pop's like, get that dude out of here.

Right, right. He just lost some guy from France. You're a big, as soon as it started going south between the Nigerian loss and then the Australian, I did watch the Aussie game because when I saw the Nigerian score,

I was like, wait, what? Patty Mills, one of the greater international players of all time. So then, as soon as it happens, it turns into a roster construction. Chairman construction. Slap an injunction on them so fast they'll make their heads spin. I feel like, wait,

so let me get this straight because they don't have a better rebounder or playmaker. they're supposed to lose to Patty Mills, Delva Dova Joel Ingles Baines who was hurt at the end of that game and then I called one of the guys number 15 because

it was number 15 one of the big guys do you want to apologize to the Australian community oh no Australian people got really upset about that I'll give you the floor. Brian, I know you have some words to say to the Australian community. Here's what I'll ask the Australian fans. You've got to understand how bad

I want to make it down there, New Zealand, the whole deal. I'm going to swing through. It's going to happen at some point. Me too. So, understand, this is, I love and respect the deal. Me as well. If we were playing a fantasy GM game,

because people are like, you don't understand international play. I'm like, eh, okay. I'm not as locked in as other guys. But I still watch a lot of basketball. And then I'm like, I had American guys going, oh, we sound like soccer elitists. And I go, okay, everybody just back up.

If you had the first five picks for a team to beat another team, would you take Patty Mills, Deleva Dova, Ingles, Baines, and number 15 before you took Durant, Lillard, Tatum, and Beal? Would you? Because you would. All right. So yes, in one game, anything can happen. Yes, the international guys are a little more locked in, but there's a, in a season where we saw NBA stars miss a million games and not take it real seriously, I think we're seeing a little carryover of that,

at least in the first couple games until the U.S. got a win. What, today or yesterday? I wish Moby was on the team. I wish Lomelo was on the team. Coutinho? No, Evan. Oh, I'm sorry.

I would have put more young guys on the team just for some young blood. Uh, coming up after the break, we're still, I was going to apologize to Australia. All right. Draft time. You're in the weeds.

You're doing stuff. I could tell you have that kind of glaze look of a guy who's been squinting too much on bad YouTube video. Um, what are you thinking? What's your top three right now? My top three is Cade, Mobley, and Jalen Green. So you don't have Mobley over Cade yet. I thought you were considering it. Yep. And I was. And I do both clips and full games because if you just do clips, you can trick yourself. And if you don't do full games, because if you just do clips, you can trick yourself,

and if you don't do full games, you'll miss stuff. And if you watch just Evan Mobley clips, which is I think I was after like a five-hour Mobley clip phase, I texted you. I went 40 clips in a row before I saw Bad Play. And I was like, this guy's nuts. Like I had done work on him before, but I was like, this is crazy.

And I go, all right, make sure you go back and watch Cade and watch full games. If you just watch mobile clips, he's number one. If you watch full games of both, Cade is still the only player in this draft. Although there are a few limitations there, but the team wasn't very good. He's the only guy with that ability, and especially in today's NBA, Bill, high ball screen, comes off of it, makes the play or shoots. His free throw shooting and 40% from three is incredible. The big moment factors that he's had all season long, that he's totally in control of the game.

You can't speed him up, all that stuff. Those big wings that may be multiple position defenders, because they played a lot of zone there, those guys are just too valuable. They're too valuable. So there might end up being a player. Like if somebody said, hey, Cade's going to be really good,

but there's going to be another player that's going to be better than him. I'm not going to be shocked if that happens in a few years, but Cade is still safer than even a Jalen Green that some teams love in Mobley. Do you agree with my plan

if I was Detroit to trade down a spot, take Mobley and get more assets? The AKA the Jason Tatum? It just depends on what kind of asset you're getting. Eric Gordon? That was floated out there. I was laughing. Pretty sure, pretty sure Eric Gordon's not going to be the sweetener to go from number two to number one. I think you're getting other picks. I think you're getting future picks with two for one. So kind of like you're saying there

with Boston, they got potentially what could have been a great. Could have been a great pick. And nine out of 10 times probably would have been. By the way, your theory about just watching clips of Mobley and tricking yourself into thinking he's going to be the next carbon Garnett. I think that's how the Celtics ended up with Romeo Langford. I don't think he was really in their board.

And I think they frantically watched like 30 short clips of him. And they're like, this guy looks amazing. Wow. I'd like to know what those clips are. Look, Mobley, I mean, he does shit, Bill. Where there was one play, I was sending you a bunch of clips last week when I was doing my final deep dive on him.

Like, he grabbed a rebound. Like, he challenged a shot, then recovered to get in a rebounding position grabs the defensive board and then i thought he fell down and turned it over and actually what he was doing his body was all out of whack and he still threw a perfect outlet pass out to the wing as he was falling down and i was like what is this and like look he's the shot he's not comfortable with that's fine he takes one three game hits only 30 but some of his perimeter skills where he'll get it out

and guys will he just blows by guy and then like two guys will be like okay well holy shit like he got our guy off the dribble so let's bring the back line up to him because it's not like he's going to pass and then he drops a dime five feet away to a baseline cutter like there's some really special um perimeter stuff and smart and he doesn't make bad plays and I think he's you know even though the post evaluation is like oh he can post he can seal he can do all these different things he's going to get pushed around a little bit his waist is really thin which actually makes him physically incredibly impressive he runs past everybody in transition but even some of the post stuff that other people don't necessarily like as much I think his instincts are all really

good and he's got a soft touch which is another another thing. Cause like, just, I know I'm rambling, but like they're post guys and you could tell, like, did you learn one move ever? And then you're like, okay, plant foot, right now swing shoulder over and now throw ball up at rim and hope it like there's guys that sort of play in the post and there's no fluidity. Whereas everything around the rim, even if you think he's a little soft right now because of his frame, which is obviously going to get bigger, his touch and feel is all very natural.

He's honestly built out of a lap. I wish for the last 20 years I had been doing a segment called I'm All In where I could just go all in on people. I'm all in on Mobley. I think he's a can't miss. I think he's a can't miss. I think he's worst case scenario.

Cause Bosh. Okay. Let me throw another, let me throw something else at you. All right. So on top of whatever work I do, people would take it or leave it. I, every time I talk to like somebody under the decision maker,

you know, mobile, he'll come up like, Hey, I wouldn't, you know, when they don't have the pick either, by the way,

but yeah, it's like, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't hesitate on, you know, Mobley, right. Or like Jalen green, a couple of teams are like, Jalen's going to be the best player out of this draft, you know, and everybody makes compelling arguments. And then Kaminga is not going to be the best part of this draft. No, no. Kaminga is the most polarizing the best part of this draft. No, no. Kaminga is the most polarizing guy. I stopped watching him. I was watching his AAU shit. And I go, all right, I'm over.

I'm done. Polarizing means there's people on both sides. Oh, some people are all in. Like they think with his size and his perimeter skill. I'm not going to say who, but. Oh, good luck. There are people. I'm out.

I'm all out on Kaminga. You're all out on Kaminga. I'm all out on Kaminga. That'd be your on Kaminga. I'm all out on Kaminga. That'd be your other second. He feels like the eighth pick of the magic waiting to happen. You could just see it. You could see it in slow motion, just him heading toward Orlando. It's like, ah, talented forward.

Can do it all. I hope he goes to Orlando so we can have like a Jonathan Isaac Kaminga DVD release party. With Bamba? Hype video. Get started with Baba. I actually don't want that to happen to them, but I don't know. At six, he might end up there. So

as I'm taking you through all this stuff, I was asking a GM this morning, and they don't have a pick that's even in play here, so they were fairly open with me about it and i said what do you think about one and the guy's like it's kate that's the seventh decision maker when i've asked them if you have kate do you have to think about mobile or green it's seven for seven

everybody's like no kate don't have to think about it and i was like wow so then when i asked the gym this morning i go okay just take me through the process he goes here's the deal he goes all the scouts and assistant guys that you'll talk to they're like hey maybe a little jalen green might be the call mobiley might be the call those guys don't have to get worry about getting fired when kate cunningham makes like five all-star games like fair i i have to worry about being fired so that's why at the top of the draft it'll end up being more consensus. But I'm surprised that the decision makers were so much certain.

I was like, you don't have to think about it at all. Like Mobley's pretty special. Yep. Don't have to. Game today, all the stuff we ran through with Kate. Can I ask you a question or do you have something to add to that? Yeah, I have something to add to that. It's one of my favorite theories, the fear of losing my job syndrome, which drives

90% of the decisions made in the NBA. People just want to keep their jobs. And if they could, like Portland, Olshay, who's, him and Griffin, it's like 1A, 1B for most people who love them in the media versus the actual job that they're doing.

It would make sense to me if he trades Lillard to get this godfather package of a bunch of picks back because then he can't get fired for another three years. And they'll be like, we're adding an all-star back. Well, you're not going to get an all-star back and send him to a team that he's going to actually want to go to.

Your best case scenario is the Wiseman, Wiggins, 714 and a bunch of Warriors picks, send them to the Warriors. But whatever trade happens will be a keeping my job trade if they trade Dame Lillard. Otherwise, you're better off keeping them. Anyway, go ahead.

I also don't know that Lillard, when we're talking about somebody who's under contract with a player option the fourth year from now, that's a completely different set of circumstances. Is it? I'm still waiting for the first NBA star to be like, I want out, who hasn't been able

to get out. All of them can Houdini style get rid of the straight jacket and climb up to the surface of the water if they really want to. Yeah, but you got to make it nasty or you can have your agents do it for Anthony Davis. Dame has some cards

to play. He does. Especially the Billups hiring. There's places he could go if he really wants to. Right, but it felt like Dame liked the Billups hire and then people on Twitter didn't like it. So then Dame felt like, okay, now I

have to distance myself from this. Dame felt like, okay, now I have to distance myself from this. It's like, okay, but you know. All right. Let me, did you have more on the draft? Do you have another guy you kind of like? I like Booknight. People do like Booknight. KFC said he's climbing.

I think ESPN had him going ninth or 10th today on their mock. He just seems like an NBA player. I haven't gone. I've only done the top 10 guys. I haven't done that 10 to 24. I haven't done the deep dive because I'm just waiting for the finals 10, to be honest.

But everyone's saying it's a deep draft. You could end up with somebody 19, 20th pick who could be really good. I haven't done the dive on those, but Booknight, I just... It just seems like... Could he have played in tonight's game? Yes. Easily. That's a good way of putting it.

Is he better than Jeff Teague? Could Mitchell have played in tonight's game? Yes. He would have been out there. He would have gotten all 11 Jeff Teague minutes. And he could have leaned on his brother for playoff experience. His brother could have helped him.

Would have been great. You have lottery trades for me. Yeah, I don't have all of them yet. I just, this is my favorite one. You know I love trades more than anybody who's ever loved trades. All right, you're running the Detroit Pistons. Yeah, I'm trading down.

No. I'm making this more interesting. And the Hornets call you up. And they go, hey, you know what? Why don't we do something fun here? Oh, LaMelo? Why don't you trade the unknown for the known? If Charlotte

offered you LaMelo for the number one pick and you're Detroit, what would you do? I'd rather have Lomelo. I would take Lomelo over Cade. I like Lomelo more than Cade. I liked what I saw from Lomelo last year. I think he's a winning player. Granted,

he's all over the place defensively, but there's a competitive spirit to him that I wasn't positive any member of the ball family could have that he absolutely had. Really fun to play with. I loved, like you did, how he could get to the basket

against bigger guys and do the bounce off the body, double clutch layup thing. I just really liked him. He shot it better? Yeah. Somehow he shot it better in the NBA than he had at like three previous stops

safer bet to me to be a superstar not a superstar a high end star than Cade I think Cade's a safer bet in the sense that we know he's going to be

a really good shooter and we know he has size you can be able to switch to the Mundy all that stuff but I think LaMelo's just I think he's more fun to watch

I think he's more if you're I think he's more fun to watch. I think he's more, if you're in Charlotte, he's going to get your fans kind of more invested. I think Charlotte would have a really hard time trading him just in general. I think he really hit it big in Charlotte. I don't think they've had a star like that before. Have they? I mean, it's like, you'd have to go back to like Baron Davis. Kemba wasn't exciting like LaMelo was, though. Yeah, but I think because he was... Look, he's not LaMelo for the excitement standpoint, so I'm not even going to debate that one at all.

But I do think it's... You don't want to cut like Kemba too short because he'd had a long enough run, even though they didn't do anything, that at least I feel like he was somebody that was a face of the franchise stability, no? But no, it's fair. But it's just like you weren't telling your grand face of the franchise stability. No, but no, it's fair.

But it's just like, you weren't telling your grandkids about seeing a combo. You weren't, you weren't, uh, being like, get eight tickets. Cause your whole family's in town. They got to see come to the night.

You know, speaking of Lamello, there's this tweet, Mark Stein, who by the way, is on a sub stack. Now highly recommend the, uh,

Stein line. You can get them. He gets right in your email box. He writes pieces and certainly been a guest on this podcast. He was the first podcast guest I ever had. So I want to have him on at some point to plug his new sub stack. I thought it wasn't Carl Ravitch. No, it was not Carl Ravitch.

Anyway, he tweeted about the NBA's 15 most popular jerseys for the second half of the season. And here they were LeBron James, Giannis, KD, Luca, Jason Tatum in the five spot, Booker, Steph Curry, number eight, Kyrie Irving, James Harden, Brooklyn Nets, Dame Lillard. that's your top 10, then Trey Young, Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, Ja Morant, Kawhi Leonard. The two that jumped out at me that were not on the list was LaMelo and Zion.

I would have bet anything those guys were on the list and they were not. Zion not being on that list is like, if you're making the case, you're writing the dissertation, the closing argument in the trial, why he needs to get the fuck out of New Orleans. You just show him that list.

You're like, look at this list. You're not on it. You're one of the five most exciting players in the league. Every time on league pass, there's a fourth quarter and Rosillo is home. He's watching your game over all the other games and you're not a top 15 jersey like you got to get out of there what are you doing that surprises me um it almost makes you think something's wrong but i mean it's not you can't just say like well new orleans they're a small market all that kind of stuff

you would just think like the fact that jaw is in the top 15 and zion isn't that's the that's the part where like oh you can't argue market there. I'm impressed that Ja's there. I'm surprised Trey isn't a little bit higher because I feel like little kids. Trey is now the new Westbrook in that every little kid loved Westbrook. All my friends' kids that were a certain age didn't care where they were from in the country. They all loved Westbrook. I think a lot of those, the next group of

kids five years younger than them, it's all Trey Young. Especially with the Atlanta part of it. I feel like Curry's in there. Curry grabbed the Westbrook title for three, four years there with little kids. He was like little kid Pied Piper. I actually probably might have been at the same thing. I guess I just felt like I had all these... No, it was Westbrook and then

Curry 2014. Curry took the mantle. And now I agree with you. So if you do that, let's... If we do that again this summer... Or in Australia, Ingalls has to be top 10. Ingalls. Hey, you got to apologize to the Australian community again later in the podcast.

I don't think I'm going to, though. I didn't really say anything wrong. I hate that Team USA lost to... Just go with the bit. Just go with the bit, Russolla. I think if we do this top 50 most popular jerseys in September, I think Trey's in the top five, right?

It's probably LeBron, Giannis. Maybe Giannis has won. LeBron, KD, Luka, and I would say Trey's fifth because I think he won over that many people over the course of the tournament but this is one of the things that's at stake with Giannis for the finals it's not just winning the title

he now gets the conch Lord of the Flies style he gets it it's in his tent, he has it you get all the spoils you're the best player in the league you're the biggest name

you came through on the biggest stage and I think he'll be the biggest jersey internationally definitely plus the best hyperventilator I think we've ever seen

in the finals no Jokic no Jokic the Joker tough tough little kids they're not really

grown up wanted to be the joker and the thing is the xl kids jersey the argument for it is like he's the most like a little kid that's ever played in the league in recent memory i mean he's like a huge kid that beats up people for making fun of him when he just snaps like once one recess every every four months i was kind of surprised so we we've a lot about Nets-Nicks and just like the Nets will never own New York. It's a Knicks town, all that stuff. It is pretty interesting that there were three

of the top nine were Brooklyn Nets jerseys and Julius Randle is nowhere to be seen. No, none of that's surprising though. Honestly, the Brooklyn thing was huge. But rooting more for the players instead of the team, I think. Yeah, but it was also new, too. Like, is that why LeBron changes his jersey up?

I mean, the Lakers thing alone is enough to carry it because of the Laker fan base, because it's not just an insane number in the biggest state, but it's also international. It's all over, you know, not beyond just being all over the states. It's international as well. But, I mean, he's changing his number again,'t he yeah lebron had once he got bounced he had a couple different moves to keep himself in the news during the uh off season as the playoffs

were going on that was one now he's got space jam so he can promote that what give me another lottery trade what else did you have all, let me give you one more. Number nine from Sacramento. Sacramento, yeah. And Buddy Heald. Oh, Simmons? For Simmons. I think I need one more piece.

Can you give me one more thing? Bagley. Bagley. You will? Yeah, Bagley,ley you will yeah Bagley healed in 9 I feel like we've discussed this trade no we did the De'Aaron Fox one because I believe that was offered years ago Simmons

De'Aaron Fox I don't know who said alright so let's play this out so I could get Buddy healed I could take Booknight at 9 yeah I'll take a flyer on Bagley. I could always spin them for another asset, right? I could trade them to Orlando or Detroit or wherever I can get something back for him. Maybe. I don't know. Those high lottery guys that flame out this hard, they usually don't get flipped the second time. They usually like

Darko. You got the number 15 overall pick, I think, from Orlando. I don't think the second time he gets moved you get much back. But go ahead. Maybe revive him. If I'm trading with the Kings, though, don't I want Bogdanovich instead of Healds? No, too soon. That would be great

if somebody called about Bogdanovich. I bet you that. I bet you that has happened, though, that a GM, and there are really good GMs throughout the league now, but I think there was a stretch where there felt like there was always a few guys you could pick off. I want someone one day to tell me, maybe somebody will text one of us about this after the fact, there had to have been a GM at some point that called about a player

that was no longer on that team. Has to have happened. Yeah, probably like an older GM, like a Mitch Kupchak. Not Mitch. Mitch is still... No, I'm just saying, just some old guy,

some older guy because I have old guy moments all the time now. I'm only 51. I'm getting things wrong left and right these days. I did a rewatchables on Monday and couldn't remember

if we did like three movies this is talking to Julia and Amanda and we had already done all three of them it was like I'm not that old I should be able to remember what movies we did on the rewatchables Kyle you've been in the mix for a while have you noticed it with Bill more slipping

there's some things I just won't say out loud thanks Kyle that's why you're a loyal ally and a great producer and an asset to this podcast. He is a loyal guy. Kyle's the fucking best. Um, can I do better than number nine, buddy healed and the Bagley trade asset. I think you might have to give me a pick swap in like 2025. Fine. I don't know. I mean, you know, the pick swap thing, I can't even keep it. I still think it's funny you said acid after Bagley, but that's fine.

I think I just like, could I, could I turn him into something? He's, he's a $10 million expiring salary, right? Right. I can turn that into something. Okay. Would you do seven? Golden 14 from Golden State. Yeah. And Wiggins for Pascal Siakam?

I don't think I would. I don't think the upgrade from Wiggins to Siakam is worth two more rotation guys because I think I can get two really good guys at 7 and 14. I think I can get two guys that can play for me next year. Odds are one is going to suck. Odds are, but listen, if I'm on the Warriors, I

think I work for Joe Lacob. Thousand points of light. What was the thing he said that time? In the New York Times piece? There's a lot of stuff that he said in that one. He said that light years ahead? No, it was light years ahead until they'd already won titles and he was like wait till we really get started yeah like you said so i'm working with joe lake up he's light

years ahead um i uh i look if you can if you can't nail 7 and 14 in this draft that's a bad job no it is and it's fucking history. I know it's history, but I think this is a deep draft full of guys who could play for the Warriors based on the team I watched last year. I think they can get two rotation guys. I would rather move up and try to get Mobley with 7-14.

If Mobley falls to 3, I would really make a hardcore effort to try to get Mobley. I don't think you can. I don't think you can. I don't think you can with 7 and 14. It's not the NFL. What about 7 and Wiseman? I don't want to give up on Wiseman.

I don't think I want to. I want the Warriors to keep Wiseman, take 7, take 14, keep Wiggins, bring Klay back, sign and trade Oubre for something, and they'll have nine guys next year that can play basketball. We are very invested in this Warriors-Steph Curry next season. I just want

them to surround him with good NBA players who don't suck. Just give him eight teammates who can hang in a playoff game. You are asking for a lot. As much as I like the first nine, 10, 11 of this draft,

maybe 10, maybe nine. They're going to hit seven. Seven is going to be a guy who plays for them next year. But see, I keep reading. There's two steady things that I've read about Golden State throughout this. It's like Wiseman's in every deal

because everybody's already off him. I think the media and the outside world is more off. I'm not saying he won't be traded, but I just feel like they're way higher on him still internally than everybody is externally. How can you not be after this DeAndre Ayton thing?

I think Ayton was a safer bet to really be successful than Wiseman was, right? But at the same time, you see the value of a big who can rebound and protect the rim and roll the basket. And it's like, Wiseman might be able to do that. Like there's a really good chance in two years,

you know, and I, the interesting thing with, with them is Steve Kerr was on the blazers when Jermaine O'Neal was on that team. Right. When remember Jermaine O'Neal was on that team. Right? Remember Jermaine O'Neal basically went to college on the Portland Trail Blazers, and he didn't really play for like three, four years.

Good program. Good program. Good program. Learned a lot. But by the time we got to the 0-4 season, he was one of the 10 best players in the league. And the talent was there, and they took his time, and he blossomed. And

I, I think that for somebody like Steve, who actually saw that and knows how talented Wiseman is, I just think they'd be nervous to give him up just because in a weird bubble season where you don't coming off a year where he didn't have a college season and then we have no training camp and then he's thrown in as a starter, like, Oh, I can't believe it didn't go well. Like what were the ads? It was going to go well. He was held to a different standard than all those other guys. Like,

you don't think he would have gotten 20 and 10 and some shitty team. I mean, he might've had like one, his hall of fame tracker. If he played for the rockets this year would have been off the charts. All right. So I think the one more thing I was, no,

that's as we saw once he stopped playing, cause he got hurt and they had to kind of do that high IQ Curry green thing. That's, as we saw, once he stopped playing because he got hurt and they had to kind of do that high IQ Curry Green thing. That was a high IQ team. I think it's a lot to ask a 19-year-old center to figure out how to click with Curry and Draymond and just all the shit that that team did. Anyway, go ahead.

I agree with that part. I think that you're overstating the success rate of draft picks to think that they're going to get two guys that are going to go ahead and play. But I think the other part of it is when you look at how the lottery starts to shake out. Because I think at this point, it's Cade, it's Mobley or Green, and then so those are your three guys.

Maybe it's Suggs. I think it's Mitchell or Franz Wagner at seven, right? They're looking at either of those dudes. Scotty Barnes feels like he's ahead of Kaminga now where Kaminga was always the fifth name

that I'd heard all season long. Hey, give me your top five. Give me your top five. Going back to like the beginning of the calendar year. Yep. And it was always Kaminga.

It feels like Barnes Florida State is ahead of Kaminga. So then you think, okay, so what if Kaminga goes sixth to Orlando? So now you're talking about for Golden State.

No, OKC's sixth. Excuse me, five Orlando if they went Barnes, sixth Kaminga or whatever. Honestly, Kaminga to Oklahoma City. Presti's not taking Kaminga. It's not happening. I don't see it.

You don't? That's kind of usually the kind of like close your eyes and swing as hard as you can move he might make. All right, so that would put Golden State at seven.

So whenever I see like, oh, Davionion he's ready and they're ready to go i don't know that bob hires like i don't like look if their evaluation of davian mitchell's that he's the seventh best player in the draft and he's there they'll go ahead and take him but when it's described as well he's more ready because he's older and they're a championship contender immediately i don't think front office even with with their situation, would be saying, hey, let's take the lesser player just because of the schedule of our age of the roster. I think that's when you start making mistakes, especially the other thing is Davion that much, but it would just surprise me if he's like, hey, there's two or three guys I like more, but I'll take Davion because of the run they just had in the tournament and we think he fits in and he's going to catch up to our guys quicker. I think that's something a lesser GM would do. Can I make the extended case beyond what you just said for him?

Sure. Just roster fit. I actually think he's the perfect guy to play with Steph. Davion? Because he's not an... Offensively, he's not your point guard. He's not a distributor. He's playing off the ball, right?

But you want Steph to have the ball. Steph and Draymond, you want the offense to run through those guys. You don't want his position to be the guy who's handing the ball. But defensively, you need him to guard Lillard and Jamal Murray, name any guard. That's what he can do on the defensive end because I know he measured out at six feet, but to me, I think that's actually pretty good. I think in the league that we have now, you need a guy who can guard other teams' point guards, who can go Chris Paul one night, Dave Miller the next night, all the way through.

And the worst have never really had that. They've always had to have like clay Thompson, you know, guarding small guys and shit like that. I think you could play him with clay and Steph. And then you have dream on. And then that's so small. You're so small.

But then that fifth spot becomes kind of that, that four was size. Maybe it's Wiseman. Maybe Wiseman can be the fifth guy with that team. Maybe it's a smaller team where you have like a four with some size. I don't know. And maybe the four with the size is the next guy you draft. But I just like that. I like him with Curry is my point. Wiseman would have to develop into a center you're keeping on the floor from, you know, we're both still high on what's been covered, but that's still a lot to ask for a team

that's going to be playing in the playoffs. Well, we think Mitchell's going to be able to shoot threes right away, right? All right, that's the other part of it. Depends on who you ask. And he measured six without shoes. They were supposed to change this where forever all of the high heights, as you know this, are NBA heights with shoes on. And then they

decided they were going to stop doing that. i think he's six feet without shoes so his nba height based on the old standard would have been like six one and a half his wingspan was not crazy you know that's why when you look at guys like harden and you're like why is harden so good again you're like oh he has the wingspan of a seven footer um like reggie jackson wingspan of a nine footer exactly and the attitude of a 10 footer right although I haven't met a ton of those guys there's another argument

again I was talking to somebody else the other day and they were giving me the anti-Devion argument you're like small wings small he's not a first step guy he finishes below the rim I push back a little bit on that I go even though he finishes below the rim he has all the awkward finishes the wrong foot to show it bring it back finish to the other side like he's figured out how to finish at least in college as a small player

but this is the part that brings it up like i don't like and this is not my quote but somebody was talking to saying i don't like fluke shooters so i was like oh so you think his because if you go through it he was like below 30, right at 30% at Auburn. And then he's in the low 40s. And, you know, it sounded as if it was already short season. Right. Had made up their mind on Davian. And so they continue to talk themselves into not liking him.

All right. So you think Franz Wagner for them? Little Wagner action. Six foot nine. Franz is a really skilled guy. Yeah. Could be very worriorsy.

So let's talk this out. Wiseman, Draymond, Wagner, Curry, and Thompson. Wagner wouldn't be playing in a

playoff game. I'm just thinking of him as like, I'm projecting could he be, would he make sense as the fifth guy

probably? Six foot nine. What if they took Kaminga? Would you be back in? How about Kaminsky? I don't think the Warriors will take Kaminga. If there's a way to bet on this, I would like to put money down on that.

I don't think Kaminga is a Warriors type of pick. I think they know who they are now. Wiseman can be their one, kind of not quite there with the high hoops IQ yet, but maybe we can get him there. But other than that, I think they're going hoops IQ and specific high-end skills to put around Curry and Clay. And we'll see if Clay comes back.

All right, any more lottery trades? No, I'm going to load it up for you next week. How's that sound? KFC really likes the Turkish guy Hollinger has him fourth And he said it might be too low I watched the clips And I know Jokic was similarly bizarre

But the Turkish guy, man Those spin moves I really have a hard time believing Those are like working in the finals, like in the game we watched today, where it's like, I said, oh, triple spin move into the paint. He really faked eight now. I just don't, I find it hard to believe.

I wonder, he's almost better for like TikTok than he would be for an NBA finals game. Honestly, that's how Giannis used to be. I used to say on the air, when Giannis first got going, I go, he's way better on Vine than he is Finals game. Honestly, that's how Giannis used to be. I used to say on the air, when Giannis first got going, I'd go, he's way better on Vine than he is in a game. And it turned into

one of the best players in the league. So I'm not sure Sengoon is the same projection as Giannis. Did you notice how much he complains? Have you watched any full games of him yet? No, I have not. Okay. I told you, I'm not throwing myself in. You might not have to.

When the finals ends, I'm throwing myself in. I'm going to be all in, but I'm still kind of into this finals thing. By the way, some height news at the Simmons house. Uh-oh. We get a new measurement of Ben? Ben's up to 5'8". Legit 5'8".

Where's he getting this size? He's grown 8 inches since the pandemic started. Ben's up to 5'8". Legit 5'8 now. Where's he getting this size? He's grown eight inches since the pandemic started. We have size on both sides of the family, but here's the crazier thing. Zoe Simmons grew an inch. She's now 5'8". She grew an inch inexplicably this summer at age 16.

Thought girls stopped growing at like 13. Nope. That's not sexist. 5'8 no girls usually stop they you know once I don't want to get too graphic

but certain biological changes happen and they they're done but she she is now 5'8 that's a great height

great height for athletes right good height that means soccer, tennis great your grandkids are likely to be tall

on that side of things. 5'8", that's a lot of height to bring to the table. Kyle, what are your thoughts of Ben and Zoe now both being 5'8"? I think Ben's a six-footer. I think you're putting... You're like...

I don't think it's... I'm not happy with it yet. I think you're giving too much praise. I think we got to wait for a 5'10". Around that corner. Oh, yeah. We're not done. We're not done. I'm not happy with it yet. I think you're giving too much praise. I think we're, we got to wait for a five, 10 around that quarter. Oh yeah. We're not done. We're not done. I'm not throwing a victim.

I'm not throwing a duck boat. I feel like you're throwing your hands up a little early. I'm not. I'm just excited that he's growing. Eight inches is a lot in a pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. Big,

big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big,

big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big,

big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big,

big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big,

big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big,

big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big,

big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big,

big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, any Rosillo clips of Ben at football camp doing the drill shirtless, which Rosillo thought was a move that he liked and respected. I know I keep throwing the same shirt on because I walk around the house with no shirt on constantly. And I was like, oh, I got to do this pod. And I think I'm wearing the same shirt as the one I taped the other day. So apologies to the audience on that one. The thing I like about Ben is that he's 5'8, but he had, he had, I feel like he identifies as six, four. He's got six bar energy. He's definitely not a Kaminga.

He looked good in the drills. I liked that he, I liked that you keep me invested. I haven't got to see the guy in a while, but I liked that you keep me updated on him. I'm just going to send them to Manhattan beach for you for like four days. Try to time it to an MMA fight, maybe a dinner with the Kings. I'll do it. I got a show for you. I got a weird show for you. I made you watch Mayor of Easttown.

I basically put a gun to your head. You begrudgingly watched it. A month later, now the showrunner's on your show. Bullshit. Now you're like drinking the Kool-Aid and all that stuff. You gave me three days while I was away to be like, hey, Mayor of Easttown, recap this Sunday. I'm like, I haven't watched it.

And there's three playoff games every night. That's fair. So, okay. Not only did I binge it in three days on top of the basketball when I wasn't even home for the Sunday pod. Who then, guess who forgot to bring it up for that fucking Sunday pod? Well, I brought it up eventually. Just not that Sunday. Okay.

Right. But now you're the showrunner on there. Inglesby's a huge fan. So, look out. Great guy. New show. White Lotus. Huge fan of you, by the way. White Lotus. Oh, nice. White Lotus, HBO. Weird, quirky

hotel show. Mike White wrote and directed. And it's got a bunch of actresses that I like in it. Alexandra Daddario. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of hers. Always have enjoyed her forever. I bought stock of her. She's kind of this generation's Carlo Gugino for me.

She's in there. Connie Britton, Coach Taylor's wife. Just have season tickets for her for since whenever. Dirty John. And then the girl from Euphoria, whose name I'm not remembering.

Not Zendaya, but the other female star on that one. Euphoria scares the shit out of me. Sydney something. I can't remember. I think she's good too. Murder mystery in a hotel, but we know somebody's dead. We have no idea.

And then they go backwards a week. And we just kind of dive into this week at the resort trying to figure out what's going on. Good show. Liked it. Thumbs up. White Lotus. White Lotus. Writing it down now.

White Lotus. Good stuff. Yeah, that's all I got for you. Did we hit everything on our list? I think so. British Open? Not invested. I'm all draft right now.

That's it. That's all I do. I'm excited that this is the only podcast of former ESPN people not spending an hour talking about their experience at ESPN. I like to look forward at this point in my life. Maybe it's just because I'm old

and I can barely remember anyone's name and my kids are growing. It could also be because you sold your company for a ton of money too. Maybe that would too. I still look back probably a tad more than you do. That's all right. We have, we, so here's our programming for next week. We're going to be on together Tuesday night after game six, game six, 6 PM.

And if it goes to a game seven, what do we do? Just go, man. Do we do another one for Thursday? Game seven? Yeah, what do we do? Just go, man. Do we do another one for Thursday? Game seven? Yeah, I think we do. We're with you game six and potentially if there's a game seven. I have this weird

feeling there's not going to be a game seven. Can't explain it. I just feel like whoever wins game five is also going to win game six. I have no rational explanation for it, but I think that's how it puts out. The crazy thing is Phoenix still almost won this game tonight. They were up with two minutes to go.

And then, you know, Middleton just took over. So, you know, this, if this thing goes seven, if it goes six,

fine. But I, I don't know. I didn't go into it being like, oh, absolutely. I know Phoenix is going to beat them. You know,

it feels close. And now it's close. Hey, if you ever tear your ACL, could you tell me before a month passed? Just give me a heads up. Yeah, I will. Thanks, man.

I appreciate it. All right. Ryan Rosillo. We could hear a podcast later this week. This podcast was produced by an awesome guy who I'm happy to be related to Kyle Creighton. Thank you. As always, we will be back on this feed. I actually have one more coming this week.

I know it's weird that we did the Wednesday night, but I have another one coming this week. Rosillo does as always. We will be back on this feed. I actually have one more coming this week. I know it's weird that we did the Wednesday night, but I have another one coming this week. Rossello does as well. Stay safe. See you in about 24 hours or so. I don't have feelings within on the wayside I'm a person I never

said I don't have feelings