The Bill Simmons Podcast - Harden’s Re-Re-Juvenation and the NBA Saboteur Hall of Fame With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: February 28, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss Harden’s debut in Philly, officially worrying about the Bucks, and Miami’s potential (3:51), before chatting about when to unleash Ben Simmons in Brooklyn, DeRozan’s renaissance, and the Durant-Harden relationship (24:56). Later, they discuss LeBron’s orchestration of the media, his desire to play in the NBA with his son, and the NBA’s move toward expansion (52:45). Finally, they induct players into the first ever NBA Saboteur Hall of Fame (70:36).  Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's the end of February. You know what that means. Ryan Russillo is back on Sundays. Cousin Sal has gone to the corner. He has made the tag. Russillo is here. That's next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer,

that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lights today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age.

It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks,

and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs in the next drive. They have so much stuff, it's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus, look out for FanDuel Squares this season.

Here's what you have to do. Visit FanDuel.com to download America's number one sports book. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit RG-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. And listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit RG-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network,

where we put up a couple of TV things over the weekend. I was on two of them. Love is Blind, the season finale. Kevin O'Connor, myself, Amelia Wedemeyer, and Juliette Lippman. We broke down what is easily the dumbest and most entertaining reality show, I think, that we've ever had.

So if you like that show, if you've caught up to season two on Netflix, go check out our recap. You can also check out, Mally Rubin and I, we broke down the first episode of Super Pumped. Koppelman and Levine were on this podcast on Thursday. Our review of the show is already up.

You can find it on the Prestige TV podcast. And then the season finale, Euphoria, I think is going up on Monday morning. It's going to be Nora Princiati and Joanna Robinson. I think Chris Ryan is joining as well. That is an incredible show. So there you go. Check it out.

The Prestige TV podcast heating up over the next couple months, by the way. New rewatchable is coming on Monday. It is the last installment of F'd Up Family February. This was the most, the goofiest podcast we did of the five. We did the ice storm and really, really, really dove into the key party concept. Like we were Tony Romo breaking down a fourth down play. It was really something. It was special to behold. So there you go. Coming up right now, our friend Ryan Rossello is back. He's going to be back on Sundays throughout the rest of the NBA season, all the way through that first free agency week.

This is the first installment of the Russillo-Simmons combo. First, our friends. Actually, I should mention, before I get to our friends from Pearl Jam, I saw Eddie Vedder on Friday night. He was playing at the YouTube Theater, which was next to the SoFi Stadium, which I'd never been to. Beautiful 6,000-seat arena, just immaculately put together. Perfect seating everywhere. Sounded unbelievable. One of the best-sounding venues I've been in. And Eddie has this new band, The Earthlings, that he messed around with over the pandemic,

made an album with them. And the concert, wow. I mean, not only did he play a bunch of stuff from the album, but he played covers from REM and the band. He brought out Stuart Copeland. They played Message in the Bottle. Message in a Bottle. Can't believe I said Message in the Bottle. Message in a Bottle. They played Better Man and Porch as well as I wish. But I mean, I couldn't believe he played Porch. That's my favorite Pearl Jam concert sound here in person. A bunch of great stuff. The highlight, he told this long story about Tom Petty at Summerfest in Milwaukee

and then broke into the waiting. And he had Tom Petty's old piano guy from the Heartbreakers, Ben Mott. And it was really great. I had a great time. Eddie's still throwing 98 miles an hour. The only thing that really hurt, he had one song that he did

and he said, this is for Jed Apatow. And then he played the song. And I'm like, I'm right here. I'm in the audience. We say, coming up next, first Pearl Jam before every podcast. What about a shout out for me? I'm right over here.

I'm right in front of you. No, nothing, nothing. Jed Apatow. I guess when you've made a bunch of $300 million movies, maybe you get the shout out. So with all that said, good to see Eddie. Still slinging it. And we'll get to Rosillo right now. First, our friends who love Jed Apatow more than me from Pearl Jam. All right, we are taping this. It is 4 o'clock on Sunday. The Celtics are blowing a game to a small ball Pacers team as we're taping right now. Ryan Rossell is here.

He's going to be here every Sunday all the way through what will hopefully be a half-decent free agency. And right now, it's Philly's world. We're just living in it, Rossello. You're already there. It's all happening. We have a rejuvenated James Harden.

His hammies are feeling great. His hand injury's good. He's sprinting. He's running. He's trying. Who knew? Who knew he had it in him? Do you remember when Twan got traded back to the Celts?

I do. And you remember, like, I remember because they got really sick of him towards the Celts. Hmm. I do. And you remember, like, I remember cause they got really sick of him towards the end there. And then he came back and he was like getting the ball immediately and trying to get it in bounds and push the pace. And it happened. It's kind of like getting back together with your ex for your life. You know what? I am going to make sure I text you back immediately.

And I'm gonna do all these things at the very beginning. Now look, Harden's a lot better than I am to date or Tuan was as a basketball player. Um, but I, I think it's going to be awesome in the regular season. And I still have a completely open mind about how good or bad it could be. I don't know. Well, one question has been answered. Was James Harden getting old and was his body breaking down? And the answer is no. It's actually his body's fine. He looked pretty smelt. I think he's one of those guys,

probably when he's bummed out, he might eat and drink more. And then as soon as it's ready to turn the switch back on, he can do a little juice cleanse or a little bone broth cleanse, whatever he's doing. And all of a sudden he looks lighter and more fit. But I thought he looked awesome today. I actually, I'm watching them going, all right, best, best case scenario in a playoff series. It's just fouls. And it's just, they're at 40

plus free throws. And I'm thinking about the Celtics going against in the playoff series and Time Lord's got two fouls in three minutes. And Marcus Smart has four fouls in the second quarter because E-May left him in one foul too long. And you're just like, oh my God, we have to play Peyton Pritchard now. And just like, there's very rarely been these teams that have these two 10 plus free throw guys. And that was the part I had forgotten when they made this trade. I mean, the upside, whatever, but just the pressure when you have two guys that get to the line like that, I was trying to think of other teams that had that. And remember like Durant and Westbrook,

there was one year where both of them were near like nine or 10 free throws together. And there were these certain games where you could just kind of feel it. So out of all the other stories that I was expecting, the free throws I was not expecting to think about. Embiid's averaging 0.35 free throws per minute, which is the most in NBA history, okay?

It's the highest number in NBA history for a player in a season. So if he keeps it at that number. I'm happy for Daryl. I love all the arguments we had about what the value of Simmons was. I just kind of felt like things can change. And the Harden thing got really weird. I mean, I don't admire Harden for bailing on two teams, which I know we'll get to in 13 months? That's kind of hard to do. And I just can't understand. Like, I have a hard time backing somebody who is okay with going out there and going like,

I'm going to play bad on purpose to prove a point. Like, that bothers me. You know what I mean? That's why I love Giannis. And we talk about the East. I think I probably am going to defer to personalities and all that stuff. But from a basketball standpoint in the regular season,

like, it's unbelievable to have a guy like Harden now controlling the offense as opposed to Simmons, who is not an offensive threat once the ball is out of his hands. The other part of this too, I love Bill, is Maxie, who I was just afraid, oh man, he's not going to touch the ball. He's immediately, and I think it kind of goes back to even his Kentucky days where he quickly would kind of shuffle the roles around. He's already, again, two games. It's the Knicks who are terrible. Minnesota that's actually going through like a little bit of a weird stretch. And Towns almost has no chance mentally against Embiid. I think as soon as he

sees him, it's like, uh-oh. So that wasn't a great game for Minnesota the other night. But, you know, none of this is surprising because it just has to be so much better for Embiid. But then I think about the playoffs and I think about, okay, what's Harden going to be like when the ball's out of his hands? Is he going to run around at all? Does he provide spacing? What's it going to be like when Embiid's getting doubled all the time? Maybe that leads back to the Harden thing. So it looks great right now, but I think I'm probably just let's see what it looks like in the playoffs because there's going to be nights too they're not going to get all those calls, despite how ridiculous this has been through two games.

The staggering with Embiid and Harden, you can feel that too, where there's just at every moment of the game, they have somebody awesome out there. And we do that before the trade too. Look, Harden's better than Seth Curry, even if he's playing at the speed he was playing in Brooklyn. So from that standpoint, Simmons wasn't playing. And it was always like there was always a conception of them being a little bit better. But I think, you know, it was always like, there was always a conception of them being a little bit better, but I think, man, if I was a Brooklyn fan, I think I'd be so mad right now watching those two games and being like, what the fuck, dude? Like you pushed your way to come here. You played hard last year and then you hurt your hammy, not your fault.

And then this year you showed up out of shape. You were never really fully in shape. And then for a variety of reasons, you checked out on us. And that's what happened. We're watching today. It's like, what happened to his hammies? Are they fine now? What happened to his mysterious hand injury?

It's fine now? But obviously he was doing whatever it was going to take to get out of there, but didn't want to just publicly do it because he didn't want to be branded as the guy who asked out of two teams in a year. Which is exactly who he is. So I don't know.

I mean, is anybody going? Is anybody saying, actually, you guys are wrong about this? And it's funny, too, because I'm with you. When I was watching his postgame with Cassidy today, I was like, he looks skinny. Not skinny, but I'm like, am I nuts? Is it the color of the unit? Like, why does this look like he's in two weeks later, he was able to drop some weight. Maybe he's one of those guys. I don't know. He just looked better. Can you do that? Can you drop

four or five pounds in a week? Because I can. Yeah. I could drop 10 pounds in days if I wanted to. It's hard for me to keep weight on. Yeah. I can just give up no lunches, just do soup for lunch or juices or whatever, and then not eat after seven. And I will lose five pounds in like six days. So maybe Harden was just like, all right, no strip clubs for two weeks. I'm not going to order pizza at two in the morning anymore. Light salad for lunch and maybe a little more cardio. And just was immediately 10 pounds lighter.

Like he looks totally different. He really does. The guy at the end of that Brooklyn run looked like he couldn't get up and down the court anymore. He was like the old guy in the pickup game. That Sacramento game is one of the worst games I've ever seen from somebody who's really good. It was so gross.

If you have NBA League Pass, you can go find it. It's on NBA League Pass. You can go backwards by date. You can watch that Sacramento game, and then you can watch the game today, and it's two different people. Okay, so that I think leads into when we start handicapping the East, and the top six teams are separated by four and a half games, so who knows? Brooklyn right now is an eight seed, which feels irrelevant because it sounds like Durant's

a couple days away. So then that changes everything for them. When I start figuring out who do I like, I don't think I'm wrong for going, you know what? There have been other times in other playoff series where I felt like Harden just kind of checked out mentally. And that if you're still okay doing what he did at the end of the Houston run, where I still love that John Wall play as much as anything I've seen in modern basketball. Where he threw the ball to John Wall behind him and Wall was so annoyed. He looked back and I'm like, what the fuck are you doing in a game? You don't see that. And then if Harden does it again, like, I don't know that, you know, I don't want to get back. Hey, welcome back, Rosillo. He was into Harden seven minutes into the podcast. I guess I'll just always kind of have a philosophical

opposition to somebody that's capable of doing that. And he's signing off and like, you're a Fox hole guy and I trust you in big moments in the playoffs. And that's the big issue with this Philly team. And that's why I'm not sending them to the finals yet, because between Harden's playoff history and beads, I don't know, checkered history to play for eight,

nine straight months in a row. And especially the pounding that he's taking this season. I mean, he's been one of my favorite players to watch this league, but I just want to see it. I want to see him get through the regular season four rounds. And then the Doc Rivers piece. There's some guys who have never been in big playoff games before, like Maxie, Tybal, people like that.

It was interesting that Harris, who's making over $30 million a year, is like a fourth option. It reminds me of those old Dallas teams from like the early 2000s where they would have like Jawan and Anton Walker basically as like role players. But if he's your fourth option, you're doing pretty well.

We're going to do the Saboteur Hall of Fame a little bit later. I wanted to quickly hit the East because there's a bunch of subplots going on right now. The Philly thing, we're in the honeymoon phase. I have no idea how long it's going to last. You watch in a game like today, you watch them run pick and roll against this Knicks team that has no size at all.

And you're like, oh my God, how's anyone going to stop that? We'll see. They have Miami coming up and Cleveland, who has a team that has some size. There's some tests coming up that will have a better feel for what Philly's going to look like. The shocker to me is Milwaukee. And Milwaukee was a team, really up until last week, I was just like, nope, I'm not wavering.

I have Suns bucks as the rematch, as my finals pick. I had in October. You're never knocking me off it. Giannis, the whole thing. They're 12 and12 in their last 24 they are not winning games when you watch them in these fourth quarters like I watched last night

against Brooklyn they gave this Brooklyn game away they had I think a 10 point lead with like 4-5 minutes left and Kyrie just dismantled them they're sloppier with the ball I don't like their roll guys as much and I don't think Middleton is as good as he was last year I don't think he with the ball. I don't like their role guys as much. And I don't think Middleton is as good as he was last year. I don't think he's been bad, but I don't think he's at the

level he was in the playoffs last year. And it's all subtle stuff, but they feel different to me. And 12 and 12 in their last 24 with Giannis playing is alarming. And now I'm starting to wonder, maybe that's not the team. Yeah, I completely agree with you. You know, I've been waiting on it. I thought we had some numbers where it looked like with Drew and Middleton and Giannis, like the record was so good with that group that you're like, all right, it's fine. I mean, I know Brooke Lopez is a nice player, but, you know, Brooke was even somebody that depending on how a certain playoff game we're going, that's kind of, I think, the problem

for a lot of the bigs in today's game is oh wait we're actually going to yank you out of the game now like we just we just don't want you in there with the other team going small we're trying to switch things and so even though you'd love to have rook lopez uh considering what he's done for this team it's it's not like a lock that he's even one of your closing five guys because they they themselves abandoned a couple times last year but their defense you know maybe it's just been i'm not sure this is right it's a working theory it'll apply to atlanta if i want to get to them a little bit later here but there's a lot of teams to go before we get there uh milwaukee in february is 24th in defense

i mean how is that possible with that group i went and I looked at the box scores from the finals last year, where it was basically seven guys and Jeff Teague, remember? Yeah, those Teague minutes were huge. Yeah, I think he played one minute in the final game. So Lopez, Connaughton, and Tucker played 86 minutes in game five and 86 minutes in game six. That's sizable. Tucker played like 36 minutes in the game six. So they don't have any of those guys. And now it's Ibaka who they're kind of

working in, who can look like Serge some nights, other nights he looks old. That Nuwara who didn't play in the Brooklyn game. Grayson Allen, Wes Matthews. Connaughton's nowhere to be seen and it seems like he'll be back for the playoffs then Lopez is the big X factor but I didn't love P.J. Tucker but they did play well with him and it doesn't seem like they've found their five last night Grayson was out there

but it's little subtle stuff I was looking at their 21 versus their 22 in 21 they averaged 120.1 points a game. And this year, they're at 113.3, right? Last year, they were second in pace. This year, they're ninth. Last year, 21.4 free throw attempts.

This year, 17. The shooting's relatively similar. The defense is a little worse. But I mean, they were 30th in points allowed last year. Now they're 24th. is relatively similar. The defense is a little worse. But they were 30th in points allowed last year. Now they're 24th. So maybe it's not that much worse, at least regular season-wise. It just seems like the pace is a little slower.

They don't get to the line quite as much. And near the end of these games, I thought Drew was really sloppy last night. I've seen that over and over with them over the course of the season. Sometimes they look sloppy. They don't have that over and over with them on, you know, over the course of the season. Like sometimes they look sloppy. They don't have that extra guard. So it's little stuff. It's, I don't think there are huge alarm signs, but if Middleton can get back to where he was,

and if Lopez comes back, Connick and comes back. Yeah. They'll, they'll, they'll be the bucks again. But I don't, I think we're at the point of the season where I'm like, I don't know if I can bank on that anymore. You're not my final pick anymore. so i basically don't have a final pick right now okay so yeah if you're taking them out then who are you putting in because that's what i mean i don't i don't have the team well i have a gun to my head team yeah you know i don't know if it's kind of like you know the atlanta thing that i thought was ridiculous was hey you know we've been a little bored it's like dude you guys have have one playoff run in your history, and that was the Eastern Conference Finals.

10 playoff wins. Settle down. So could you, really young group of guys, could you be a tad more motivated and not be so over it? Like you're Jordan and the Bulls coming back for the second three-peat in that third season. So when Atlanta had said that, I was like, okay.

Do you think that's the all-time, I can't believe you just said you were bored example we've ever had in NBA history? Maybe publicly, because I bet you there's some bored pistons. Well, who was the guy who got hurt in the Milwaukee series that they were kind of pointing at? They were missing somebody in that Milwaukee series last year, right? Well, Trey got hurt, but.

Trey got hurt, but was Hunter? Was it Hunter? Yeah, somebody. Because I ran into somebody from the Hawks over Super Bowl, and he was bragging about the Hawks. And he was like, you know, if we had this and that, we would have made the finals. And I was kind of like, cool.

Because Giannis was on a fucking bender. Like, I'm sorry, you weren't beating Giannis in the playoff series last year? But yeah, so I guess, gun to my head, I have Miami. But I don't feel good about it. But I think they're probably the safest of all the bets because of the way, I don't know if you've noticed, but Bam is on a fucking bender right now.

And it looks like 2020 bubble Bam again on top of bender right now. And it looks like, you know, 2020 bubble bam again on top of all the other stuff. And it's just now that Lowry's back and he looks Lowry-ish again and you see all their pieces and that I'd probably feel the safest with them, but I don't feel good about it. Yeah, Hunter, you're right.

He missed, he played the first round, but not even the full first round. Right. And wasn't around. I don't know if he wanted to spend more time in Atlanta. I just get so frustrated with him. I just get so frustrated with him because I'll be like, there's no reason why this shouldn't work more.

You know, you've got this dynamic playmaker in Trey. Maybe you get a little predictable. I mean, I was watching the other night against Chicago and they ran a double screen left to right for Trey. I don't know, eight positions in a row that were half court setups, not something that's like transition or semi-transition and then you look at the shooting options around it and you go there's no reason why this shouldn't work and it and it just

doesn't and they don't defend and i still think they're trying to figure out who they are because the hunter part him coming back and kong who i think they maybe like sometimes more than capella even i don't know i mean just depending on the minutes. But do they remind you of the 2019 Celtics at all? Where you watch them and it feels like the pieces are there, but it's obvious something's not right? Yeah, that's a good call. I actually think I still like this Atlanta team better than that one. Yeah.

Because that Celtics team had some of the worst quotes ever where those guys were like, we don't think anyone in the world can beat us in seven games. You guys have done fucking nothing. remember they beat indiana in round one they're like here we go yeah and then they beat milwaukee in the first game and then it was just it was over it's still to this day one of the teams i've disliked watching the most of of any team ever and i just got so sick of those guys constantly being like well once we get started but like based on what you guys are talking like you're the Spurs.

And Hayward's energy that whole year was like, wah, wah. And Kyrie wanted to switch on to Giannis. And you were like, this isn't going to work, dude. All right. Kyrie's coming up later with the Saboteur Hall of Fame. Yeah, Miami. So Bam's last 13. Bam, you're right.

He's nuts right now. Go ahead. 21 and 11, 55% field goal. It's not just that. The defense, they can really throw some defensive sequences. And I think we've all been waiting for them and the Lowry thing and what's going on. Is he going to be back?

Is he healthy? He's old. You got to worry about it. But they have the best coach. They can put out Bam, Jimmy, Lowry, Hero, and Tucker at crunch time or switch Robinson for Tucker. Their bench is okay. The only thing I've seen is I don't love them in the half court

at the end of these games sometimes because it feels like stuff should run through Bam, and maybe they're going to realize that over the last six weeks. But sometimes it's Butler, I'm the guy stuff. And it seems like certain teams can just throw a taller guy at Butler and give him a lot of trouble. And then Hero is, who knows? He could have 27 one night and he could go three for 15 the next night.

So it feels like Bam is the key for whatever their ceiling is. I don't know. I like the team. Their defense has been second to only Boston, and that's why I think some of these projections have Boston way higher, which I do think we should touch on at some point because the numbers,

if you haven't looked at some of this stuff, you're like, wait, what? And Boston's defense is so off the chart since January 1st. It's 98.5 points per 100 defensively. Miami's second in the NBA over these last two months, and they're seven points behind Boston. That's how absurd some of these Boston defensive numbers have been in their overall net rating stuff. But I'm with you on BAM. When I watch them,

and there've been times where Butler's been in and out, and it looks like they are a little bit better with BAM. I think their depth has been really impressive for what they've done. I think Miami does one of the best jobs of any front office you know i don't know if they're number one but they're maybe in the conversation of three or five teams where you'd be like who the hell's that guy you have a lot of who the hell's that guy yeah they do and then you go oh you know what like this guy's not killing them right now um whether it's you know at times where I think Struess has knocked down shots for him. Gabe Vincent's had nights.

I mean, we can even go, you're Steven as well. You know, he's had moments. But, you know, I don't know what you're penciling in for any of these guys. I do like how Lowry is, even though he's still a guy who can get you buckets, I like that he's over it enough with his own accomplishments that I don't feel like he forces stuff.

But yeah, look, it's still going to be Jimmy Butler probably trying to get something off the wing and driving late in games where I still look at Bam and I feel like the guy doesn't make any mistakes. It seems like every time Bam has the ball in his hands, something good happens because he's making good decisions and he's really hard to deal with for another opposing big.

Yeah, if your favorite team's playing them or if you bet against them in the last two minutes when they have Bam at the top, that's where I'm scared. That's where I'm the most scared. I mean, Butler's so irrationally confident at all times. He's always scary. But I do feel like, you know,

if it's like everything's slowing down, people watching him on the right corner or the right side, I'm okay with that. I'll take my chances with that. But bam, it just seems like all kinds of good shit happens with him. I also think, every year there's a guy that didn't kind of get love around the All-Star game and then goes on a tear. And then three weeks later, there's somebody writes the article and the guy was like when I didn't make the all-star team I was fucking pissed and now I'm on a tear

I think he's he's the leading candidate for that this year I could see that one happen so do you have Miami like if you have did you say gun to your head here which is aggressive but well you know what I mean like I don't want to make a pick I mean the Celtics right now,

there's three minutes left. They're losing Indiana one 22 to one. Yeah. They actually cut this one. I think the single digit. Yeah. Long ago. I will say this though,

not to make excuses for the Celtics, but Indiana is a weird team. They're going to have weird results the rest of the year. I would say if you're betting, if you're betting basketball every day and you could get Indiana, like with a big money line, they're going to have games where they just score 130 points and beat whoever.

They're really hard to play. They have these weird guards. They're interchangeable. It's all slash and kick. They're one of those annoying college teams. Yeah, I would say Miami if I had to pick, but Brooklyn is the other wild card. Let's take a break. We'll talk about Brooklyn.

This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers,

host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. So the Brooklyn piece, KD's coming back, which is a relief. I was, you know, that was one of those, I really hope you're coming back.

And now he's back. Seems like it. He's coming back before Simmons is. Well, the Simmons thing is hilarious. Which part? They want no part of that Philly game. Whatever. I don't believe any information that comes out about Simmons until after that

Philly game. He will not be at that Philly game. They will make up whatever they need to make up. It's still what? March 10th, that game? Yeah, so that's like what, a week and a half from now? So you still think a week and a half. Yeah, actually, you know what, I think the way they were talking up Durant's status on the game last night,

they were like, you know, he's going to be back, and they were saying on the ESPN broadcast, he's going to be back before Simmons, but they were like, he's doing full court now. Then it made you feel like maybe Durant was a week out, that maybe that is the setup for him not playing in Philly. And by the way, if that's that important for him to not play against that Philly game,

then I'm sort of scared. Like, what did I just trade for? A guy that can't play in a regular season game against the Sixers? Or I'm going to lose him for the rest of the year? I hate to defend. If I can only defend a Ben Simmons, I want it to be the one I'm related to.

Okay. I would not have him anywhere one I'm related to. Okay. I would not have him anywhere near that Philly game. All right. If there's, well, first of all, who knows? If there's actually some mental health stuff going on with him, then we'll never know the real answer to that. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

We'll give him the benefit of the doubt. If there is, why would I want to put him in that Philly game? If I'm actually worried about him and his mental health, I'm going to bring him to that game with the Philly fans who are going to be out of their minds, ready to go nuts and boo him, boo him every time he gets the ball and yell and stuff. He's not going to be able to handle that if he's having issues with that. If he's not having issues with it, you're trying to build up his confidence,

regardless, as a basketball player, hasn't played since last June, you're going to throw him in that game? What if they go hack a Ben, keep putting him on the line, and he starts airballing free throws? There's so many ways that can go wrong. There's really only one scenario where that goes right,

where it's like, oh, Ben played well. Well, congratulations. You're making $30 million a year. You should play well. So I just don't think it's worth it. You got to get past that game and then bring him back. All right. You're making $30 million a year. You should play well. So I just don't think it's worth it. You got to get past that game and then bring them back. All right.

I'll look. You would bring them back. Well, yeah, I would. You would? You'd be like a fuck you, drop the mic. Here's Ben Simmons. Come get it. No, I would just be like, hey, man, you might have to play.

Do you want to have this thing, get it over with? Or do you want to maybe do this in the playoffs? What about his back tightness? How about his back tightness? Do they have another game in Philly? That's the only game with Philadelphia. So you're saying to avoid whatever the stresses will be. Like, hey, man, you're a pro athlete. You're going to have to play in front of a bunch of people.

It's going to be on TV, and there's going to be moments that you're going to feel pressure. I get your point, and it certainly feels like this is the way the league is going where you defer as much as you possibly can. But I'd rather just get this thing out of the way than have it potentially be who knows how the seating plays out here. There's a real possibility you're going to see them very early in the playoffs if you both advance. If Durant's back and Harden and Bede got it cooking, you're probably running into each other. So why not just get it over with?

I can't believe we're arguing about this and I'm in the position of coddling the athlete and treating him like a little baby bird and petting him. It's okay, baby bird, please fly again. Yeah, you're right. At some point, he's going to have to play. I mean, he might even have to play in a series against the Philadelphia 76ers. That could be our round one matchup. That would be a bunch of games in a row. And a couple of them

are going to be in Philadelphia out of the first four. Philly's two and a half out of the one spot. Brooklyn right now is in the eight seed. They might be able to get to Toronto in the seventh seed, but yeah, they could absolutely play Philly in round one. That could be a thing that happens.

So whether he's in a playing game or whatever, he's going to be in a high pressure basketball game at some point. I just don't know. Either he's got to come back right now and get some games under his belt, but it can't be like he's back March 8th and then his second game's at Philly. That to me seems like you're really playing with fire at that point.

If your goal is to try to rehabilitate whatever happened to the guy's confidence and get him back, I just want to get his confidence back, right? That means he misses six more games at least. Yeah. And then, I don't know, matinee at the Garden, ABC. That's not a great one either. I think I'd have him skip that one too. Is there a game in Detroit? No, we got you covered.

At Orlando, March 15th. Oh, perfect. Cerruti. We'll send Cerruti. We'll send him. He could be courtside. Yeah, Orlando. That's perfect.

Him, Markel Fultz. People can write think pieces about the process going sideways in a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, the thing with Brooklyn is, you know what's sneaky? And I didn't even really register with me, but just getting Drummond in that trade, where Drummond is like if you've had a roster catastrophe

and you just need guys who can just randomly play 30 minutes, he's probably one of the five weirdo guys you would want in that situation, right? Just people, somebody throw out and just eat up innings, like Tim Wakefield style in the early 2000s. Tim, can you just give us six innings? I don't care if you give up five runs, but you'll be able to at least get 18 outs. That's kind of like Drummond. And they have enough guys when Durant comes back. They might not need Simmons right away anyway if they list the mask mandates, which seems like it's happening. Yeah, the latest thing today was that we weren't sure,

but it feels like it's heading in that direction. It was kind of like a weird Sunday news dump on the mask mandate, but it looks like Kyrie is going to get his way on this one. The Drummond point's a great one because he's probably not as good as the rebounding numbers suggest. Because if you look at his rebounding numbers,

I think, doesn't he lead the NBA in the last decade or something ridiculous? He also was on an all-NBA team. Because I was looking for the Saboteur Hall of Fame. No. I was looking Saboteur Hall of Fame. I was going through every all-NBA team to make sure we didn't miss anyone.

Yeah. And I was like, Andre Drummond, 13. Was I, did I black out that year? I definitely can't imagine I voted for him, but yeah,

he made it 13, but yeah, he, in a game like last night, you know, he can do a couple of things. Yeah. I talked to,

I talked to somebody with the Lakers about it once, and it was a really, really good point. And I, it's going to sound really basic. So this isn't super insightful, but it just was kind of a reminder. And I was like, what's, what's the, what's the attraction of drumming? What is it? And it's like, you know what? Sometimes it's just awesome to have somebody that big around. Like it just makes you think about driving in the hoop. It, you know, it's, it's a pain in the ass to rebound against that guy, you know, when he's out there. So those 20 minutes, you know how it is.

You're just like, you know, you kind of have a thing go off in your head where you'll be like, do I want to fight over this box out to get this rebound? You're like, no, because this guy's enormous and I'm probably not going to get it anyway. Or you're busting your ass to even compete. And then you're kind of spending energy on that end that you want to spend on offense. So i think that there is and they were small too

yeah at least he's one big guy that they can throw out there against even in beads owned him but at least you can bang him around yeah i think that that's important but i also think the best version of this nets team is simmons playing in the bruce brown role is the five. Yes, I agree. The East since January 1st, Celtics including today, 19-8, Phillies 18-7, Miami 17-8, Cleveland 16-8, Toronto 17-10, Chicago 16-12, Atlanta and Milwaukee are 13-12, and 12-12. And Brooklyn's lower than all those teams. So at some point, I think if the mass thing comes up in time

and all of a sudden there's a Kyrie-KD combo thing happening, the Simmons part is almost like gravy for them. Because the big thing for them is, can we get KD and Kyrie every game? Kyrie looked awesome last night. I mean, it's actually kind of underrated that he's really not playing that many games.

He's basically on a baseball pitcher schedule where he's just coming out of the bullpen twice a week and to put up 38 on Saturday night when he just hasn't played that much basketball. I was actually impressed. He's kind of like that kid in your town who's on one of those rec league

teams. You're like, what's going on with him? He doesn't show up to practice. He's like, I was parents, man. He plays hockey. Yeah. He's not even from this town. And then he shows up on Thursday and gets 25. Or he had 35 last night.

So yeah, I mean, he was filthy. And that was kind of one of those games. I'm with you. Like I'm watching the whole time. I go, wait, Milwaukee's going to lose this one. Can we stay on your Celtics here for a second because we have to talk about these projections all right now when the win streak first started happening and by the way for a team that as you pointed out is on like a two-year disappointment run of basically being a 500 team

I remember last year we're talking I'm like I just don't think they're all that tough that that tough mentally they did figure some things out with how they have like Rob Williams um defend the opposing power forward especially if he's a non-shooter because that means that you can roam it's sort of like it keeps him beneath the free throw line instead of all these other things he has to do even though i think his pick and roll numbers are really good too with defending that kind of stuff um it's something they even mentioned with mbd uh when one of the mbd games i was watching the broadcaster was like hey this is something they'll do assigning them to the power forward so you have more freedom to roam. And when you look at these defensive numbers, that's what's happening.

But the win streak is still, anytime you're putting together a win streak like they were at the end of January into the middle of February where they didn't lose, I'd look through it and be like, all right, Miami's guys didn't play. Brooklyn's guys didn't play twice. But at least they're winning and they're destroying these teams. Philly right after the Harden trade. Right. But this is where you lose me because whether it's the ESPN BPI stuff where it gives them

a 15% chance of winning a championship, Milwaukee's number six at 6%, or excuse me, Milwaukee's number three on this list at 6% chance of winning a championship. So Boston, by this metric, has a 10% better chance than the Milwaukee Bucks of winning an NBA title. And then the 538 one is out of fucking control. They're number one in the NBA projection to win the NBA finals at 21%. 21% chance. A one in five chance, the Celtics. Look, they're not that team. That's not happening.

I think they could win a round or two or maybe even get to the conference finals if some things broke. They got some luck with some of the other teams, but I'm with you. I think some of that stuff really overrates point differential with wins. And if you look at, if you just go look at the standings at the point differential, they have the best point differential in the East, but this has been a super weird year with COVID and everything else and guys missing games.

So I think there's reasons for all this stuff. Chicago got decimated by injuries. I still think if you're, if you're just lining up the teams, like if you're telling me Chicago is going to have everybody back and you're telling me Brooklyn's going to have everybody back and you're telling me Brooklyn's going to have everybody back and Philly and beat and

Harden are going to be healthy. And then Miami, I think all the, and then Milwaukee, I think you have five teams over the Celtics. If you're actually saying who's going to make the finals, right. I would have the Celtics sixth.

Yeah. I think that's look, I you're totally right about the point differential thing too. I think sometimes you have a couple of guys like PR wise, Rob Williams is always going to be off the charts because of the way he plays the game. And then that factors in. I remember looking back at some of the five 38 stuff. They were always in love with the Sixers. They were always in love with the Sixers because of how just some of the metrics came back for them. And you'd be like, why would you have them as like the second best chance of getting out of the East on some of these years? It didn't make a ton of sense to me.

But you even mentioning Chicago, we haven't done anything on them. We have to give them love here just because of how much fun it is. Even in that Memphis loss the other night, that's one of the best regular season games I've watched all season long. You turn on other arenas and then you'll put it on for a Bulls game and you're like this is the best and you know i was wrong about the rosen although there's very very rarely does somebody have their career year post 32 years old i think he's one of five players to do it in nba history i think he's like the fifth oldest to have his best year be at this stage of his career out of thousands and thousands of nba players um and the vooch thing scares me a little, depending on how they'd match

up, how they'd match up with the size of Milwaukee and Brooklyn. But I just kind of love watching that team and the way they're embraced again. And a lesson in front office is like, all right, maybe every move here isn't a championship-contending move, but just being interesting and being more fun and having DeRozan go on this MVP-type tear, I just kind of love that city and that team, even though I probably not going to pick them to win the East. It's so much fun when a team that has, and it'll be fun for when Philly's in there too.

These teams that have been around forever that have fans with the grandfather's tickets that the grandson now has shit like that. The DeRozan thing. Yeah, I'm with you. And so the San Antonio fan there, he was doing this in San Antonio. I was like, no, he wasn't. He wasn't doing this.

He wasn't. There was a telling moment in the All-Star game. You know I love to overanalyze All-Star game moments. You do. You love it. You might be right. Curry was trying to hit the game-winning three and they were like double-teaming him and he missed a couple.

And then LeBron reset it and he's like, we need a hoop. DeRozan. And DeRozan did that fucking turnaround move that has now become his version of Dirk's little one-legged thing. It's one of the hardest things to defend in the league. I compared him on Twitter to the Bernard King Knicks run when Bernard and people were like who the fuck

that was 40 years ago what are you talking about but first of all we have YouTube I would encourage people to if you really love basketball go back learn about some of the people from the 70s, 80s, 90s

but Bernard had this move he had two moves that he just dined on one was that thing when he would go, he would have the ball like on the left side going toward the hoop and he would go toward the baseline and then he would shoot that little fall away from the left off the baseline and nobody could stop it ever. And they knew it was coming and he would still get it off whenever he wanted. And then he had like a stinky little turnaround where most people, when they turn around,

they turn around the way DeRozan turns around where you have the ball and you turn around, so you're falling away to your left. Bernard would do a turnaround where he would turn around, but he would go to the right. So he was releasing it from the side, you know, he's right-handed. And he just dined on those two moves. And he had the Joe House pull up too and all those, and he was 35 points a game. DeRozan has his version of that Bernard going toward the baseline,

kind of that little off balance where you just can't block it. But that fucking turnaround he has that he makes all the time now, that I know he had in Toronto, I know he had in San Antonio, but now it's like, it's just unstoppable

where he goes toward the basket, toward the guy like he's driving and then spins and turns it into a turnaround. And he's at that Dirk angle that he can't block it. It's a top three unstoppable shot right now, right? What else would you have? He makes it all the time. I was reading.

I mean, it's totally locked in. Like it's calibrated perfectly. He's up in the air as a turnaround. And you just are like, ah, it's going in. That's how I feel about him every single time. It in the air as a turnaround. And you just are like, ah, it's going in. That's how I feel about him every single time. It's like Dirk, right? It's like when Dirk mastered that shot. It's like, ah, that's going in.

Yeah. And this is still without Caruso, which certainly hurt them because it ended up being Io that had to defend Ja. But I'll give Io this. I fucking love that guy, too. I love him. Caruso's out there. They haven't had Lonzo for this whole stretch after the the knee surgery and Levine who I wondered how is he going to adapt to another ball dominant guy into Rosen and you know it's it's that it's that really tough thing to figure out like how many

guys do I want on my team that can get their own and then how many guys do I have that only want to get their own and you never quite know, like you have to hope that your players are maybe over it enough in their own careers. You know, it is that 08 Celtics thing, 07, 08, where they came in, they'd all been over it. They all have their own individual stuff and the stats and all that stuff. And they were at a place in their career where they were okay and willing to collaborate. And I do think that's what you have with Chicago, with Lonzo being on multiple teams, Caruso knowing his role, Levine being like, yeah like yeah I could score 30 every night but it doesn't really mean much and even Vooch you'd made all star teams and put a big numbers with Orlando although I gotta tell you and as much as I love

the Bulls broadcast it's one of my favorite they're very high interest in Thompson very high some Rodman comparisons by Stacey King and I almost almost... It's tough. I was almost like, hey... Nobody tell them. Let them enjoy it for a couple weeks. They'll find out. It looks great. It looks great for a week. But you know what else is interesting about the DeRozan thing too is that I've always actually liked him.

I liked him before the draft. And then he had, let's face it, some disastrous series with Toronto in the playoffs. And I don't want to hear about what his overall averages are because we need the number one offensive, you know,

the number one offensive option on a basketball team. You're still going to put up points, but you're in a, you're in a gunfight with LeBron. You need somebody who can match baskets with him. And over and over again, he couldn't match baskets with LeBron. And that was,

that was what happened. And so he goes to San Antonio and he actually gets like, his playmaking improves. He's still hitting those long twos that everybody hates. But there would be, I don't know how often it's said, I want to get this wrong. But I remember one year

I was talking with Zach Lowe about it. We were going over our all NBA votes. But again, like he was like, what would you hypothetically be doing? And I brought up DeRozan and he like sent me this thing. He goes, check out some of these plus minus on off things with DeRozan.

Right. The team was better without him. so you're like cool you know you get 24 a game here um but this has been incredible and i was i was wrong about the contract and you know good for them i you know because i enjoy it i actually the bulls now for me are are like oh the bulls are on okay i'm just watching the second half and i want to be i don't want to be distracted by anything else and again credit to memphis for getting it done at their place too because they didn't really are like, oh, the Bulls are on? Okay, I'm just watching the second half and I don't want to be distracted by anything else. And again, credit to Memphis for getting it done at their place too because they didn't really know what to do with Ja

and they were kind of screwed by not having a better defensive option. But I really like that Bulls team, just probably not enough to pick them to come out of the East. You look at the Rosen stats. So in his peak, he could get to the line, right? He was in 16, 8.4, 17, 8.7, which is a huge

number. And usually that goes down when you get older and he's at eight this year. So he's still getting in the line. The big difference. So he takes even less threes than he did four years ago, but the two point percentages, he was was always in the mid-40s. It trickled up a little the last Toronto years to the high 40s for two-point field goal percentages. He was 54% and 52% in San Antonio. He's 53% in Chicago. He's taking 18 twos a game.

He's making 53% of them. That's crazy. That's fucking sick. We were talking about this in the finals last year when we were saying how one of the things we liked about this Milwaukee team was it wasn't just the threes. They could get hard two-point baskets. And that Phoenix-Milwaukee series kind of became a referendum on that, right? It was like, oh, they're just getting good 17 footers, 12 footers, 18 footers, 22 footers. And we were talking about, is this like

the new way to zag? Chicago, I don't know. I really like the way the league is this year from a basketball watching standpoint, because I think there's so many different styles this year. Remember two years ago, we were kind of having a freak out about, is the league just going to be guys running in the corner and jacking up threes and that's basketball from now on but i don't i feel like we're in a good spot and the rosens like the fulcrum of it yeah there was that one portland uh golden state game when d'angelo russell was still on golden state oh god i remember i remember and i think somebody from the team reached out later to be like i was there there. It was the worst. I remember it was one of those moments where like it even happened last night

where I'm like, how long is this last minute of Milwaukee and Brooklyn? I'm like, wait, how long is this bent? Because I was like, when's this game going to be fucking over? And there were, yeah, there've been a few games where I would go, oh, you guys are just taking threes all night.

I'm going to sit here for two and a half hours. Like I don't even need to write anything down. Be like, all right, high ball screen three, high ball screen three, high ball screen three miss. And so, yeah, I think Chicago and whether it's whatever we'll see from Brooklyn. Well, that's like a Chris Vernon thing where he made this point once, and I thought he crystallized exactly how I feel.

The first two- thirds of the season, there's certain teams like you kind of don't really have to study and watch, right? They are who they are. You know, you're like, oh, I don't,

I don't really need to watch Portland. I know what they do. I don't, I don't, but whereas like there's a team like Cleveland or like, I need to watch like 10 games of this. Cause I don't understand what's going on here. Now football's over.

Now we're just completely diving in and really trying to figure it out. But I think Chicago is a good example of, I just like watching them. Especially watching them try to figure out the Vooch part is like the wildcard thing. I know they don't have their guys back, but how do you get Vooch to where he was in Orlando? Is that even possible?

Or is he going to be like a 15 and 10 guy for them? but how do you get Vooch to where he was in Orlando? Is that even possible? You know, or is it just, is he going to be like a 15 and 10 guy for them? And that's it. Cause this was a guy who would have, like he would have nights where he would just absolutely eviscerate the Celtics. We haven't really seen that guy in Chicago. Maybe they don't need that guy,

but I think they're a really interesting team to watch. I just think they need to figure out a way to get him to hold up because, you know, Ja, Ja, who, by the way, in this praise for the bulls had 46 in a career high to win on the road which is which is worth bringing up well jaw who looked like he had a bo jackson hip injury what four days ago yeah i guess where they showed the replay and i was like is that the bo jackson injury i was having a heart attack right and then he left him in yeah it was like josh cutting through it.

It's like, wait, are we sure he didn't have the Bojack's in his dream? But he didn't. It's fine. That was a weird game because he got every single

offensive rebound imaginable. But if you go back to that Bulls game, I mean, that's, a lot of bigs just have a hard time holding up against

this pick and roll. But with Ja, I don't think there's anybody that splits a double team better than Ja. When you think there is no possible chance of him escaping some defensive closeout where you go, oh, they got him. And then it's like this snake that's hard to keep in your hands. He just pops through and then there's this extra step at a weird angle. And the next thing you know, he's

at the rim again. And there's no real reason to think that that's not going to be there in the playoffs because he's just that special of a player of splitting doubles of working angles his start stop momentum is probably as quick as anybody in the league and even if you decide all right we want to like it's a weird thing with him where you know you always talk about the wall with Giannis yeah jaw feels like point guard Giannis to me a lot where you may have to just sell out but the difference with him is even though the three-point shooting has kind of fallen off again the last couple months i'd have to look it up because he was really like hitting a nice clip and then he kind of like i think january is a disaster um but they still always have shooting between jackson

bane you know even depending on what happens with bro. The more I watch it, the more it reminds me of the late 80s Jordan stuff, just how Jordan would attack the rim. And the other team knew he was attacking the rim and he would just get to the spots he wanted anyway. I think guys are constantly surprised that Jha's just trying to either dunk on them or just go right to the rim on them

when he's eight, eight nine inches ten inches shorter than them and over and over again they seem like they're kind of jumping up a half second late because they're like i can't fucking move this guy's trying this and it seems like that happens what seven times a game with him he's like i'm fucking going to the basket come get me i like watching and they all like each other. It was something that we picked up on early. I don't know if we did a pod together. I think we did at one point.

Or maybe we just texted with each other. I go, you know, my favorite thing about Memphis is these guys actually, you can see it, how much they like playing with each other. And it's fun. These don't even have to be your favorite teams, but it's a lot of fun to see a team's personality play out that way, where they're like, fuck you, let's go.

And they back it up. There's nothing worse than a team that's like 20 and 42 being like, we want all the smoke. They're like, bro, you're getting the smoke, and you don't beat anybody. And Memphis, you can make an argument that since the new year, they've been as good as anyone. Brooklyn didn't give you that feeling this year? You know, I didn't see a ton of joy.

Jalen had that one clip where Harden, the ball rolled over midcourt and Harden didn't go get it. And then somebody ran behind him and they just got a fast break layup and the Nets called timeout and nobody even said anything to Harden and Jalen's like, he's out.

He's out of there. He did a whole thing about, that's it. if those guys aren't even getting mad at him about that he's out say goodbye James Harden's gone he's right it's tough tough times when the team doesn't like each other so think about yeah I mean think about the the TNT thing that was one of the greatest things in broadcasting oh my god when they're doing the LeBron Durant draft and it's Gobert and Harden still available. And LeBron is losing his shit. I want to hear Durant really

talk about this because he went to bat for Harden. He convinced Brooklyn to trade a ton of shit for him. They lobbied the owners in the front office together really hard to get them to throw in some of the extra stuff the last couple days of that trade.

I have a lot of intel on that. Within a year, he just checked out. I just don't know. Are those guys... I don't know what the real-life version of that is. Were those guys good buddies, or were they work buddies?

Do they talk now? Is it like, I'm never talking to you again? Katie's been pretty quiet about it, but I would assume he was like a lot more like, fuck that guy. But I do feel like Kyrie was, you know, and Zach said that too, he was on the pod Thursday. It does feel like this is all Kyrie driven. Once Kyrie checks out and decides not to play, that seems like Harden was like, what the fuck is going on with this place? You told me that I can trust this guy, Kyrie. You told me he was cool.

He's not playing. Now I'm by myself. What the fuck is going on? So it does seem like that. It doesn't excuse what Harden did, but that's my take. No, it doesn't, but it's hard for Durant to have a counterpoint to Harden's argument about Kyrie. Yeah.

Right? Like, what do you say? No, dude, you're wrong. This is awesome. There's never been a situation like this in NBA history where somebody has vouched for somebody else for over a multi-year span to the detriment of a lot of different things. Yeah, none of us could believe it. I mean, you know, when it all went down, it's like, all right, you realize what you're hitching your wagon to believe it i mean you know when it when it all went down it's like all right you realize what you're hitching your wagon to and the fucked up

thing is it still might all work out it's still might work out let's oh quickly fan do odds brooklyn's plus 290 to win the conference milwaukee's 3 to 1 philly's plus 350 miami's 5 to 1 celtics are 9 to, and the Bulls are 16-1. I mean, Miami at 5-1, I don't like any of those odds that much, but it seems weird to me that Miami doesn't have as good odds as the other three guys. I would at least have those four together, and then maybe Chicago and the Celtics underneath them. We're going to take a break, and then let's talk about LeBron.

All right, LeBron James, you might have heard of him. They did a big We Didn't Really Mean It tour last week, which was really special. I'm always amazed at the media's capacity to carry the water for some of this stuff. LeBron spent

all of All-Star weekend just doing things, putting stuff out there, floating Sam Presti, floating the, I'm only going to play when Brian and James is coming to the league. I am playing with him.

That's how you get me to be on your team. Floating some third-party stuff that then they denied after about how they had tried to facilitate these West these whisper trades. They were unhappy and taking no accountability for any of it. And then I think what happened was, Jeannie Buss is a tough lady, man. Wait till people watch this HBO show. She's been in the league since the early 80s. And I think at some point she stood up to those guys and was like, no, stop. You don't get to undermine all this. Stop. You're here.

You're under contract next year. What are we doing? And I think they had a power. That's what I heard. But I think she stood up for at least something. But for them to unwind last week and pretend that they weren't being chaos agents was really strange what'd you what'd you think of the whole thing yeah everything was done on purpose uh this is lebron's mo and it works so it's hard to tell him he's doing it wrong but whether it was at the end of his first run with cleveland where remember they just trading for anybody that likes marginally upgraded but it still meant more money that they were taking on, like the Zerbiak, Ben Wallace stuff. You know what I mean? Oh, the 2009-10 range, yeah. Because anytime I'd ever heard somebody say, well, they didn't do good enough a job. And they

were like, they did literally everything they could possibly have done to prove to LeBron, we're investing, we'll spend whatever this takes. I remember one time with Miami, they were one below the maximum roster size. And I asked them, I was like, why is he complaining about that? And they were like, constant pressure, constant pressure. I mean, this is how LeBron handles it. This is how Clutch does it. Keep pressure on everyone, the short contracts, all that stuff. So look- Remember end of 2018 when they had the pick that turned out to be Colin Sexton and Windhorse just wrote about this recently. He was putting all that pressure and he kind of scaled back, just wasn't playing hard there for a few games because he wanted them to trade that pick.

Cleveland finally sniffed this out and they were like, well, wait a second. You're going to leave. You're going to go to Los Angeles. We know you're probably leaving. We're not trading that pick. We're going to have nothing. Fuck you.

And they didn't trade it. Was it DeAndre Jordan he wanted to trade it for or something like that? I think it was somebody that it was not worth the top 10 pick. It was like the Nets pick. And at that point, it still didn't know what the hell the pick was going to be,

by the way. So, you know, because the lottery would have been after the trade deadline, as it is every year. Listen, I think we both admire. LeBron has been about titles really since the, since he lost to the Celtics in 08. He's like, I want to win the title.

Every year I want to win the title. I'm the best player in the league. And I deserve to have the best possible team to win the title. He's not interested in, you know, he goes to Cleveland in 2015. He's not interested in developing Andrew Wiggins. He wants to win the title. Get me Kevin Love. Goes to the Lakers in 2018. He doesn't want to like mentor Alonzo Ball and Brandon Ingram. He's like, get me Anthony Davis. I want to win the title. And I think he was trying to do that this year, but they had no assets. They already traded all of them, LeBron. Sorry. Right. And they're distancing themselves strategically from the Westbrook deal. And

the only reason Westbrook's on this team is because LeBron. That's it. That's the only reason. Right. And they wanted them to trade Westbrook. That's what I believe. And to throw in that 27 first round pick. And then for a clutch client, John Wall, who I'd argue maybe that deal is better because you don't have the freelance part of Westbrook that can be disastrous. Maybe Wall doesn't do those things, but it's still hard to take on John Wall. We haven't even played this year,

and I got to add in another pick, and then who even knows? Here's the thing I don't understand about it. So you keep the constant pressure on everybody as if a front office sits around and goes, hey, do you want to get better today? Nah, it's not really that much pressure on us no well only only if lebron starts pressuring us then i guess we'll have to try to get better so then he compliments cleveland like crazy yeah we know what that's about yeah i predicted that in december i tried to flag it

the presti thing is so weird i think it's complimenting presti is it weird though no here's why it's weird here's why oh god i think he's doing it because the thunder have a lot of picks and presti would be sitting there going you know lebron was really complimentary about all-star week back two years ago let me take his kid 24th um which i think presti would be the last gm to go ahead and do that but i think lebron here's the weird thing about playing with his son which you've talked about for years this is a new news everybody that's known anything about the league has known that this is something you'd want to do here's what i gotta ask though if i take your kid who right now is a 17 year old junior i think. I think he's like 6'3".

I think he scores like nine points a game. He's the fourth best guy on Sarah Kandem this year. Right, okay. So, you know, he, by the way, I don't love talking about a high school kid. I mean, yeah. But LeBron is the one that is putting it out there that I want to play with this kid.

So if we treat it like we would treat any other prospect of like, how good is this guy going to be? I think it's a very fair question to ask because LeBron himself is putting the pressure on his son saying, that's where I want to go ahead and play. So if, if a team said, Hey, should we take his son? Cause that gives us a chance to win with LeBron, which again, what's LeBron going to look like at 39? You know, it's, he's a tough guy to to bet against because he's looked terrific the entire time.

I need to know this answer. Am I getting you that season or am I getting you later on and like the third year in? Because that's what it felt like. It felt like LeBron was complimenting Presti to be like, oh, if I say really nice things about Oklahoma State, Presti, and then say, hey, I do want to play with my son at some point, maybe they end up taking him. But here's what I'd ask, like any GM, do you realize how much you're putting yourself out there? Now, Presti has the equity to be able to get away with whatever he wants to get away with if he's still running the Thunder in a couple of years.

But for any other GM that's like, hey, let's evaluate this guy. You know what? He's probably not a first rounder, but we'll take him just in case because maybe LeBron will want to play for us and it's worth it. Then what happens if the kid isn't any because maybe LeBron will want to play for us and it's worth it. Then what happens if the kid isn't any good and LeBron doesn't play with you that first year that you have him? So this was very, I think, very calculated, but I don't know that it was worth the effort to go ahead and do all this stuff. I don't know. It's also a while away. The kid's in 11th grade now. He's going to be 12th grade next year. So that's one year. He's going to go to college for a year.

That's two years. So we're talking two and a half years from now. We don't know what LeBron's going to look like two and a half years from now as a player. He would be already, I mean, it would be on like some Tom Brady, 2020, 21 type shit going on if he's still really good at that point.

And then, you know, if he's not a top 30 prospect right now. So if you're not a top 30 prospect to jump from one year of college to be a first round NBA pick, it's hard. The, you know, the, the odds are pretty slim at that point. Usually it's the top 25 guys. And then, so who knows? So I would think the roadmap for him would be to stay in college a couple of years and boost your stock. And you come after your sophomore, junior, but then LeBron's even older after that. So I didn't understand that Bronny part at all. The Presti piece, I interpreted it as, I think there's a feeling in the league that Presti

could be had. He rebuilt Oklahoma, he left them with all these awesome picks. Could you get them with the right godfather offer if you were a giant team? Right. So I'm, I wonder if LeBron feels like, well, they could get rid of Palenka and get Preston and then he can figure this

out. Well, what's Preston going to figure out? They have two guys, the two guys in the 27 and 29 first round picks. What's he going to figure out? He's still going to be working around the fringes, trying to add lower level guys.

I just don't see it. And you know, and this leads to the other part of the thing. How long do we think LeBron's going to be working around the fringes trying to add lower level guys. I just don't see it. And this leads to the other part of the thing. How long do we think LeBron's going to be in LA? People feel like, well, he lives there. That's where his whole business is. But I don't know if he's going to be with the Lakers after his contract expires next year. He's guaranteed deal next year.

But after that, do we know where he's going to be? Would it shock you if he was in Cleveland? Would you shock you if he was somewhere else? I feel like everything's on the table, right? Yeah, I don't think he has any allegiance to anything. But I also would wonder if playing with his son is his top priority, would he really sacrifice a better chance at a ring in one of the final couple seasons of his career,

whenever that is, because he's a little known. Because he has to get to five rings. He has to at least match Kobe, I think. I think that would be his number one quest as a basketball player. I need to get to five. Six would be ideal, but I need one more. Right. So would he want to play with his son so badly that he would go play somewhere

that has no chance? That's why I think the playing with the son thing, although he would go play somewhere that has no chance that's why i think the playing with the sun thing although interesting and he said it forever i i can't imagine being a gm being because you know this has like shabazz napier written all over it again it just does well is it possible it's like we're going to all-star weekend my team's four games under 500 and nobody's going to talk about me this weekend so i'm going to create some news no i think he has a purpose, I think he has a purpose. Yeah.

I think he has a purpose though. Every time he says stuff and I think he says it to keep people constantly. He, he wants everyone around him to have pressure on them as if their goals are not his goals. And I think it's a little excessive, but you can't say that it hasn't worked. I have a, I have some intel.

Okay. I think the league is going to expand to Vegas and to Seattle. And I think the leading contender to get that Vegas team is going to be the Fenway Sports Group that they have Liverpool, they've bought the Penguins,

they've been circling different NBA teams for a while. I think they looked at Minnesota, and I think they're the leading contender to Vegas. And if I had to bet on a LeBron scenario, it would be for him to be involved with whatever happens with that, where he is the point man of that Vegas team. And I haven't heard that mentioned.

I don't care if it gets aggregated because I think I'm right. I think that is scenario A for LeBron. He wants to be an owner. I think he wants to run one of these teams. And I think conversely, I think the NBA is looking at this going, we can add these huge expansion things.

I heard combined, we're talking 6.5, 7 billion for the two teams. So explain that to us because that's a huge part of this because you're giving up the future rights, the TV rights, you're splitting it up 32 ways instead of 30, but you get an immediate check. So most people are going to vote for this. Yeah. You're talking, let's say it's 3 million for Vegas and 3.5 for Seattle. 6.5 combined.

Billion. You're talking 30 teams splitting the 6.5 billion for those two entries. So you're just getting a free check for 200 million plus each, which would kind of cover a lot of the attendance stuff they lost over whatever the last two years. Now they could also rig it, and they've done this in the past

with the expansion teams where it's like, you don't get to participate in the media rights for two years three years whatever so they can put that wrinkle in as well ultimately they want lebron to be the point man of the team they did this with jordan we watched him do it and i think they want to do it with lebron so do i think he's going to be a how's that going to work with him playing basketball i don't know could it be fenway sports Group buys Vegas and then LeBron plays for them for two years and then eventually joins as the lead owner? I don't know. Could you see Adam Silver bending the rules and making it so that an owner can also play for the

team? Would you put it past Adam Silver? He's bent over for the players in all these different ways, to bend over to their demands. Could he change the rules for that? I don't know. I'm just saying the Vegas thing, I would watch that because I think that's, we talked about expansion last year. I think it is officially real. And in rich guy circles, there's a lot of people jockeying. And I think that's why some people let the Minnesota thing go because Minnesota, everybody agrees Minnesota got a pretty good deal. But I think there's a feeling like there's two more teams coming wait for the two teams.

And I think they're going to be really, really, really, really focused on having minority representation with the two ownership groups. However that happens. And LeBron is definitely going to be involved in that. So that would be my prediction. Well, that last part too, I would agree with. I agree with you you by the way on everything um here on this one that's i'm not

it's too much money yeah and honestly it's too much money at this point i think there have been times where you've brought up stuff and then you think i'm like disagreeing with you but it's usually just poking at you to go give me more information so i i want it on the record here that i agree with you about this one because whether it was the vultures circling the Pelicans or whatever. Well, wait, hold on. We should talk about that because that's a monkey wrench for this.

Yeah. Because, and Vegas is getting expanded. I don't, I couldn't see the Pelicans moving to Vegas, but I could see them moving to Seattle. And, you know,

then maybe you go 31 teams instead of 32 and you have New Orleans goes to Seattle and Vegas gets the expansion team. And then you figure eventually we'll have 32. You start talking about places like Louisville or whoever. Kansas City. Kansas City. I don't know. I don't know what the possibilities would be, but I think Seattle and Vegas are going to have teams. That's happening um but i'm fully i'm fully willing to be aggregated seattle and vegas will have nba teams in the next like five six years all right the the part that you nailed though too

i think when you look at the nba and you look at the the coaching situation um minority hires versus what the nfl is going through right now. I think if you kind of know what was going on last year or so, the NBA was very proactive about it. They wanted to be progressive about it. This last cycling was like, look, we need to do a better job. And I think the league has done a lot better. I think less than half the league right now are actually white head coaches. So that silver and other people at the highest levels of the league would want that representation in ownership as well, which is as big of an issue it is on the field or on the court. That would not surprise me because I think Silver does a better job with this than any of the other commissioners. And that Fenway Sports Group has been super ambitious and really successful.

Like the Liverpool thing worked. The Red Sox, they've, what do you think, 12-2 pulled at this point? Oh, I can't even imagine. 15-2 pulled. So I also, listen, I never love expansion. But I think the NBA is in the best position to expand that it's probably been in since the early 90s from a talent standpoint. There's enough talent to go around.

I was watching Detroit-Boston yesterday. You're like, Detroit's like, I'm texting my dad. I'm like, Detroit's like pretty good. They're a bad team. They're pretty good. They have guys, they have Cade Cunningham. I like Stewart. I like Olenek.

I like Bay. Jeremy Grant. That's a team that in 2006 would have won 39 games. Look, I can't believe Orlando has the record they have. Right. And then you watch the guys. I've been watching some college the last week, and you watch Jabari and Chet Holmgren and Paolo,

who I'm not sure about. Sometimes he reminds me of late second half of his prime, Jawan Howard, a little bit. It makes me nervous. I need to watch him more. And then Ivy's the- Whoa, whoa. I know.

Wow. I wasn't expecting that. Ivy's a wild card. I mean, he's probably the upside swing guy. Johnny Davis and then Griffin on Duke. I talked to a team about their top four and they had Jordan two behind Jabari. Not surprised. Ahead of Chet, ahead of Paolo. From what I've seen, Jabari. Not surprised.

Ahead of Chet, ahead of Paolo. From what I've seen, Jabari has to go one. But I have admittedly, I need to watch more. But it's just clear, like, holy shit. This is like, I was, Sharks was the one who said, who told me the Rashard Lewis, like watch for a little Rashard Lewis with him. And I've been watching that.

And it's like the Rashard Lewis 3.0. But he really gives a shit that's what i like about him he's really competitive which i think is like my number one thing i look for now when i watch this stuff totally yeah i'm the same way it's like just show me the guy who's really fucking into it that's why i want to draft the only time it's bad is when his guards forget they have the best fucking player in the country on their team i said that to serene before you came on unbelievable It's unbelievable how many times I'm watching Auburn

and I go, what are you guys doing to this dude? I'm going to throw a name out. Is that college basketball though where it's like these guys who are never going to make it who all of a sudden

are deciding your destiny with two minutes left? Yeah. I think the guards kind of lose their shit. A little Len Bias. Oh. Interesting.

He's a little more slender than Lenumbias was as a junior, but yeah. Oh, I think Len looked big back then in that era. Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. Len was kind of jacked. I think Jabari's pretty jacked. You know what? Jabari, when he pulls up, when he goes into his dribble and pulls up from like 15, 17 feet,

it looks like he's a 28-year-old guy who's been in the NBA for 10 years. I'm all in. I don't love his dribbling. It's a little Tatum-ish with his handling, but everything else, I just love the competitiveness. Anyway, I think we will have two more teams, and I think the league is ready for me.

They know what's great about that? It's two more teams players can force trades out of. Hey, that's a good segue into the Saboteur Hall of Fame. That's next. All right, Russo and I spent half of our weekend researching NBA stars who either quit on their teams or something weird happened. And we don't want to call this the Quitter Hall of fame because in some cases the guys didn't quit.

Like Carmelo Anthony, I think there's, now that the year's passed, you think, oh, that guy, he forced his way out of Denver, blah, blah, blah. You go look at the game log and he's like averaging 30 a game to the bitter end. He had like 50 like a week before they traded him. Like he did not quit on the Nuggets. He just told them, you have to trade me because I'm going to leave at the end of the year, which I don't know is necessarily quitting. So we're going to call this the Saboteur Hall of Fame. And what's funny is Will Chamberlain, I mailed you a Sports Illustrated article about Will Chamberlain. This was in 1965 and it was two sabotages away from where he'd end up in the career sabotage standing. But Frank DeFord wrote the piece and it was two sabotages away from where he'd end up in the career sabotage standing.

But Frank DeFord wrote the piece and it was about how Wilt had just forced his way out of San Francisco and they gave him away for nothing. But it was like, he tried to leave Kansas twice. He tried to leave Philly after his rookie year. He tried to leave the 76ers when they were moving and now he's done it again. And this guy, Will Chamberlain, and meanwhile, they have no idea he's going to do it again in 1968 when he forces them to trade him to the Lakers. So he's really kind of the poster boy for the Saboteur Hall of Fame. It's one of the many reasons I have Russell over Chamberlain until my dying breath. But as you're doing the research, what were some of the stuff that jumped out for you? I'll just stay on the Wilt stuff because I don't know if it was the most recent Lakers book that I was reading where I was getting into his entire run in the 69 finals against the Celtics where the Celtics weren't supposed to win an NBA championship that year.

He had four points in game two of the NBA finals. Four points. And then there's the mysterious game seven where Van Brendenkoff doesn't put him back in the game. And it was like, imagine if this stuff was happening now if one of and again wilt's a little older at this stage of his career but he still won a championship three years after this um which is weird because he almost didn't finish that series against the knicks but they won in five games in 72 so but you're right like he shit on kareem and said that kareem should have retired five years ago and so then kareem got a chance he had a chapter in a book called Wilt Chumper Lane, right? Where he fucking ethers

Wilt and was like, you quit on Kansas to go to the Globetrotters. You quit on the Sixers or you quit on the Warriors. You quit on the Sixers. And then you try to quit on the Lakers too. And it just, he absolutely eviscerates him where he was like, you weren't a leader, you were a quitter. And every time things got tough for you, you blamed everyone else except for yourself. So. When I did all the research for my book, it was why I ended up doing a whole Russell Chamberlain chapter. Cause I just couldn't believe the grenades that everybody, that what was playing for and against, they're just throwing grenades at him. Like Rick Barry, Bill Bradley. It didn't make you pick anybody.

Bill Russell, John Havlicek. All right, so we were talking about on the basketball reference pages of these different guys where it has like all NBA teams, all-star, all defense. It should just be like sabotages. It's hard.

They would have like 2020 and 2022. Wilt would have had a bunch of them. So our criteria is basically somebody didn't like his situation and sabotaged it until he was able to change the situation. Now, some guys

might have done that, but still played well. So I'm just going through some examples because there's a lot. Jason might have done that, but still played well. So just going through some examples, because there's a lot. Jason Kidd on the 2007-08 Nets, who had played with Vince for a few years, and that team was going nowhere. There's this whole thing where he skipped

the Knicks game because he had a migraine. People were suspicious about that. He made kind of a trade request, and then all of a sudden was like, I want to be traded. But if you look at his stats, it wasn't like he didn't do a Harden. He was still playing hard to the bitter end, but it made it clear, like, just trade me. His stats didn't suffer. So I can't really put him in the sabotage hall of fame. He was just unhappy and wanted to be traded,

and they traded him. Do you count that as a saboteur hall of fame candidacy or no no because we have better examples there's just like when i went through i'm kind of surprised we're even starting here because um like that was not one of the first ones that jumped out of my mind like i probably could have come up with 30 but i don't know how like is that accurate you know what i mean or how much do we even know at the time um where i think the guy that you just named is the first ballot saboteur vince carter vince carter who i wrote about at the time who i was very mean to in my book but i felt like i really took the toronto thing personally and i went to a quipper game right near the end when

i watched him do it in person so So his last year with the Raptors, he was 16, three and three. 41%. He stopped rebounding. Yeah. Stopped going to the free throw line. 3.6 free throws. It was the worst rebounding numbers in the first 18 years of his career.

Goes to the Nets. They're so desperate to trade him. They take Alonzo Mourning's bad contract back. It's the worst trade anyone's made for a superstar. People would have a heart attack if anyone did anything like it now. They got nothing back. They were just, he was unhappy.

They were desperate to get rid of him. Goes to the Nets. Same season, 28, six and five. Rest of the way, 28 points a game, 46% field goal, almost seven free throw attempts. So he's the gold standard, and he is in the Saboteur Hall of Fame, I think. He's got to be in there.

His PER were all in the 20s throughout his entire start of his career. And then that year with Toronto, 0-4-0-5, he just says, nah, I'm over this. Get me out of here. And I watched it. I went to a game. I watched him do it.

2015 Rondo will do quickly his whole Mavs thing, which would be the worst 30 for 30 ever. But he fights with Rick Carlisle the whole time. They play him only 10 minutes in game two of the first playoff series. He gets an eight second violation at one point because he's yelling at the coach. I can't remember if that was game one or game two. And then Dallas just sends him home. And then after the series, the mavericks vote no playoff

share for rajon rondo yeah rondo's got a couple because rondo's first lakers one was weird too when they all just wanted everyone to know fuck luke walton right remember that right and he sat down in the seats oh yeah right and then and then rondo in classic rondo fashion, then got told us we were the jerks for questioning it. Well, welcome to the Saboteur Hall of Fame, Rajon Rondo. Bob McAdoo, early, carrying the torch early for the Saboteurs, 1981. Really miserable playing for a bad Pistons team. Gets away by them and paid off just to go away.

The rarely seen, this really didn't happen that much in the 1980s. Here's your entire contract. Please go. Signs with the Nets as a free agent. Never really gets in shape and then ends up in the Lakers turning his career around the next year. But early early saboteur. TMAC we have to put

in there, right? For the way his Rockets thing ended. That was pretty ugly. Yeah, you're going to have to refresh me on that one. Came back from surgery. He had knee surgery. Wanted more minutes. Rick Adelman didn't think he looked good enough. Didn't want to play him more minutes.

T-Mac takes a leave of absence. They end up trading him. But the funny thing is the Knicks need to get rid of Jordan Hale and somebody else to create cap space for LeBron down the road. So they give up two first-round picks to get TMAC in the trade. And then TMAC's basically done. So they trade for TMAC. He's way past his prime T-Mac.

But there was some sabotage. And you go back and read. He was really unhappy he wasn't playing. So I think he's in there. Lamar Odom in Dallas. We don't need to go over that. But he had a lot of personal issues. Do personal issues count for the Saboteur Hall of Fame?

It's a tough one. I think he... Maybe we can push him to the next year's ballot. Lamar had a lot of stuff going on. He did. So we'll push him off. We're yeah. Kawhi Leonard in the 2017, 18 Spurs.

Absolutely. Played nine games. Was working on with his own doctors. Turned on the team i never really heard the most perfect story of why that happened but i don't see how he's not on here they ended up having to trade him for demar de rosa he's got to be on here yeah the weird thing about this too is like this is the last of the trades where you go what did you get like if this trade had happened two years later you know the spurs would still have five first last of the trades where you go, what did you get? Like if this trade had happened two years later, you know, the Spurs would still have five first rounders, a couple of swaps that are probably never going to happen. This was the last like normal one for a guy forcing his way out where now you're still

paying some ridiculous first round tax that you could see. So when he played, he played nine games for him and and then he came back, and he only played 60 for Toronto. God, he's 26, 27 years old, and apparently it's this condition that he's going to have forever. Well, it was also a contract year. There was a lot of buzz that he was going to LA. So I think that's why the Celtics were afraid to trade him. I think he's on there.

Would you put Kyrie on there for his last Celtics season? Only because we know more about the behind the scenes stuff where he was uh his milwaukee series there's youtube clips you can go watch them i think he belongs yeah i mean the difference there is he just left as a free agent after saying like i don't care that he lied and said you know hey if you'll have me back i think that doesn't bother me i mean guys don't tell the truth when they're trying to worry about their next move and all that stuff i think that was more of sabotaging that there had been so many hints that this guy wasn't into it and people would try to tell you you were wrong all the time yeah like no no he didn't show up to the cleveland thing because he had had this weird dental surgery and he was embarrassed deviated septum yeah and you were just like what like it's game seven against the Cavs he doesn't want to be in the bench yeah you can't no he's

busy you know like the mass pike that time of day too if you're just like sterile gets congested yeah sterile you know they could do some construction in that brighton alston exit take some back roads to the comm and didn't wear a comm av. Well, his last four games in the playoffs that year, he was 19 points a game in the playoffs that year, 30% field goal. The Celtics lost

the last four games against the Bucs by 21, 7, 12, and 25. And he was doing weird shit and some of it's on YouTube. The switching to demanding to guard Giannis was iconic. I will never understand what happened to him in that series, but I think we have to include him.

Dwight Howard is a special entry to the Saboteur Hall of Fame because he does the trade request in December of his last Magic season, 2011. I know Steve Cerruti's on hand, probably sobbing tears right now listening to this. He demands to go to either New Jersey, LA, or Dallas. Then we get to the trade deadline, which was in March that year

because the season started late. And remember the internet was really mean to Dwight. And Dwight decided, no, no, forget it. And he waived his ability to opt out that summer. Yeah, he picked up his own option to stay another year. He picked up his own option. He's like, no, no, not only that way I traded, I picked up my option. I'm coming back.

And the Magic fans are like, what? And then that summer, he's like, no, actually trade me. And they end up trading him. And they somehow made out the best of that trade. They just traded it at Andrew Bynum and Andrea Goddard, all these guys. Orlando got the best guys in it. So he's on there.

His stats never suffered in the 2011-12 season, though. So I don't know. That's a special, with the Saboteur Hall of Fame, when the stats don't suffer, I never know what to do. But he was so, you remember he had that weird press conference with Stan Van Gundy when it came out that he wanted Stan Van Gundy fired, and then they had to stand next to each other. Oh, that was weird.

Yeah, the metrics for that, the only thing you could argue is that some of the stuff started falling off, but they still were pretty big numbers. Yeah. And they're marginally falling off. He's like 14 rebounds a game that year. Yeah.

He was leading the league in rebounding. I mean, his efficiency numbers are all going to be through the roof because he's around the hoop and he's rebounding like crazy. His defensive numbers, depending on what you want to buy into metric wise, there's no like Valley where you go, Oh,

you know, like the Vince Carter one again, to go back to it. When I was looking at it this weekend, I was laughing hysterically. I'm like, he stopped shooting, stopped scoring, stopped getting to the free throw line, and just his lowest rebound per game number

up until he turned 38 years old. And this was at what? When Vince was 27 or 28? No, he was younger. Yeah, he was probably like 25. He's like, I'm just not going to rebound anymore. And so you see it. And then as soon as he's on the nets, he's back to like scoring major. And he's like, yeah, he's like i'm just not gonna rebound anymore and so you see it and then as soon as he's on the nets he's back to like scoring major and he's like yeah he looks like

kobe again yeah so uh dwight does not like we haven't got to baron davis's last year with the hornets yet yeah let's do that now 2005 baron davis clashed with byron Scott. Missed 12 games with a heel injury during this season. Just decided, did the I'm going to rehab at home thing, so nobody knew where he was. Came back his last 12 games with New Orleans. He was 18-7, 34% shooting. Got traded to the Warriors in a trade that was not good for the Hornets and immediately turned

into a 20 and eight guy, 40% shooting. There's a lot of reasons I think he was unhappy in New Orleans. And I'm sure he is a podcast. I would love to hear him talk about it someday. But he wanted the hell out of New Orleans to the point that they had to trade him for 35 cents on the dollar. And it was a great trade for Golden golden state i think he belongs on the list yeah he he shut it down i mean he played 18 games that year for new orleans and then you were like okay so how did how did this work because i went through and did the game logs this morning and you're like okay so he played in november and then he didn't dress for a couple games and then he played most of December yeah and then once January into February he just didn't dress or didn't play or wasn't with the team so like all there's like three different classifications for why he didn't play

and I think at that point he was kind of like you know I'm sure there was some kind of injury there but there was no real hurry to come back and then then the way it shows in the game log, once he was with Golden State, I don't think he missed a game, like played 29 straight with him and was really good again. And he did say too, he was on TNT when all the Anthony Davis Pelicans Lakers stuff was going on. And Davis said to Shaq, he's like, look, I'd rather live in LA and have a 120 million than live in New Orleans and have 240 million. So I think that gives us a good sense of where his head was at with not wanting to stay in New Orleans. He gets on here again, but I can't crush him on this one with the Clippers. He signs with the Clippers thinking Outbran's

going to be there. Outbran basically backstabs him and goes to Philly. So he ends up in the Clippers. First year he tries. I was going to the games because I had season tickets. I wrote about it a bunch. Second year, I think it was second year, showed up. He's 20 pounds overweight and on cruise control and was really on cruise control until Blake showed up. But I think he was really disenchanted about the situation. But it sucks because when Baron Davis was right, he's probably one of my favorite players the last 20 years because he was so powerful and so dynamic and he did have a little you know that that fuck you in your game that i love to see uh when he was right he was he was a lot of fun man i think

out of the guys who you're just like man i wish we could do that career over again he's way up there for me c-web kenny anderson there's a bunch of guys like that. Brandon Hunter. Kevin Love. 2021. Multiple bizarre examples during games that everyone was just like, wow, this guy really wants to get traded, including that one where he just passed the ball to the other team. I think he apologized multiple times, but just didn't want to be there. I think he's done an incredible job rehabbing his image with that stuff and assimilating in a really good Cavs playoff team.

He's been an awesome teammate this year. He was a terrible, terrible big money guy for them last year, and I think he deserves to be in the Saboteur Hall of Fame. Okay, but can you be on it if you don't get your way? Oh, interesting. No, it's fair. I think what you're saying is like wait there's no stipulation that you have to be able to say you moved on i i think the saboteur hall of fame

should include the people who didn't get their way okay he tried they looked him in the eye a couple other people who tried Sean Kemp heading, coming out into the 1999 lock. So 1997, Sean Kemp gets to be in the Saboteur Hall of Fame because he's so mad that they overpaid Jim McElvain. He's so miserable that they end up having to trade him to Cleveland before the 97 season starts.

That wasn't a full-fledged during the season, tanking it, but just, he was, it was him and GP, and he basically was like, you got to get me out of here. So we could debate at the end of this whether he belongs, but then 1999, he gained 35 pounds during the lockout.

You can go read the stories. He was supposed to show up at 280, and he showed up at 315. I don't know if that's a saboteur thing. I know he had some other issues going on. I just wanted to mention it. Same thing for Spencer Haywood. And you'll find out more about it when you watch this winning time show on HBO. But Spencer Haywood, his drug problem got so bad, he fell asleep during calisthenics during the finals and they kicked him off the team.

Here's one who does belong. And this is one he made history. And one of my favorite role players, Robert Horry. 1997. Hated playing for Danny Ainge so much. Whipped a towel in his face at a Celtic game that I was attending. And they eventually had to trade him with Joe Klein for Cedric Sabalos and Ramil Robinson. And he ends up on the Lakers. So there you go.

Adrian Dantley forced his way out of Utah. We mentioned Carmelo. I thought Pau Gasol maybe, but I looked up the game logs. He was great in his last Memphis year, which may be even a matter that the Lakers traded for him. Anthony Davis does not count.

His team sent him home because they were tanking. I think he would have played. Jimmy Butler, I think. Really, Davis doesn't count at all, though? All right, let's talk it out leaves the arena with his agent pick him up in like the middle of stuff yeah you're right i mean the team did send them they sent him home though they they because they were trying to tank i don't know yeah i but like from what I had heard, people were furious about it.

All right. We'll throw them in. Listen, we don't have a limit on the Hall of Fame. Jimmy Butler, Minnesota, has to be in there. That's one of the most efficient saboteur jobs you've ever seen. I mean, he wasn't even there that long. And then he showed up to a practice. Rachel Nichols was there with the camera crew.

And we were off. I'll never forget that forget that too it was so obvious what happened was like i'm gonna go ape shit at this practice i'm gonna have people see it and then i'm gonna sit down with rachel and make my case and i'm like this is all way too convenient and i still think it was fucking lame that wilbon like thought i was he was like rossillo just they brought it up at some interview in chicago and i like wilbon but he was like oh rachel would never do that i'm like what are you talking about it's a fucking tv show it's exactly what they did and it's not rachel's fault that jimmy played it perfectly but it was all part of yeah it was all part of the plan like nobody was wrong necessarily other than jimmy was like i'm gonna do all these things it was very obvious what he's doing and it worked for him we asked

house for some examples from the wizard's bullets history and he really didn't have enough evidence for Chris Webber other than just Chris Webber or whatever was going on with him in Washington. But I rejected it. He was really pushing hard for Hot Plate Williams. I don't think Hot Plate Williams is good enough to be in the Saboteur Hall of Fame.

So I'm disallowing that one. The nickname's good enough. Andrew Bynum's in though because of what happened in Cleveland when he kept shooting after the coach called the team over and it just kept shooting shots and wouldn't listen

and they kicked him out and they kicked him off and they eventually traded him to Chicago because Chicago was trying to save money. But he actually like sabotaged a practice to get him out. So he gets to be in. Congrats, Bynum.

Yeah, Bynum wasn't real locked in towards the end. Yeah, no. Do you know how old Bynum wasn't real locked in towards the end um yeah no I would do you know how old Bynum is today is he like 36 he's 34 oh my god he played 400 games wow he was really when he wanted to be he could could get baskets. I mean, he was basically done, Bill, at 24 years old. Yeah, his knees. He was one of those when you see the guy in person and you're watching them run, you're like, oh, this isn't going to be a long career.

Is it like just legs and arms going? He works out at the gym I go to sometimes. I haven't seen him there in a while, but everybody says he's really nice. Did some research on 1970 Oscar Robertson in Cincinnati. I just want to retract what I just said. Cause it was so irrelevant, but leave it in because I sound like an idiot.

Go ahead. Big O. It was a suspicious, suspicious 12 game hammy poll at one point. It wasn't getting along with Bob Cousy, but he was Oscar Robertson. One of the 12 best players we've ever had. His stats were still good that year.

He got the trade to Milwaukee in the off year. I'm disallowing that one. Same for Kareem. He told the Bucs, I'm going to leave in a year. Not sabotaging. I'm leaving in a year. You should trade me now. They did. They traded him to the Lakers. Bill Walton used free agency to leave

Portland, so he can't be included. Same for Moses in 1982. 1992, Barkley, even though he had some off the field, he always gave a shit in Philly, not putting him on. And then the only other one was Andre Miller in the Clippers. He hated being in the Clippers so much.

Go look at his basketball reference. It's just a mail-in. But I think he hated the Clippers. I don't even know if that's a saboteur or not. He was just so miserable. Didn't you write a piece? I did. This is years ago, right? And there was some thing that they was asked to do. We were's a saboteur or not. He was just so miserable. Didn't you write a piece? I did. This is years ago, right? And there was something that they was asked to do.

We were doing a Jimmy come alive thing. And he was like, man, I ain't doing shit for the Clippers. He walked away. We were like, cool. So anyway, here's our final saboteur hall of fame. Will Chamberlain, Vince Russellsell vince russell vince carter rayjean rondo bob mcadoo james harden a two-time winner rarely seen it's wilt and james harden stand alone in the saboteur hall of fame i would love i would love for a hardened documentary like one of these hagiography i would

just be like so you were one of the rare like you were able to do it twice in 13 months. Two times saboteur. And he just answers it like serious. He's like, Hey, when I have, when I'm focused, when I have my, like when I'm, my heart is set out for something, like I just, I got to get it done. I like, I'm a closer. He's like, you say your hammy hurts. I mean, how do they know?

Say you have a hand injury. How are they going to know? All right. So we have him. We have a Kevin, Baron Davis, Robert Horry, T-Mac, Dwight Howard,

Jason Cade. You're saying yes. I mean, he trade requested, but he was playing hard. I'm going to say no. Cause I'm going to say no. I don't remember it being nearly as ugly as like seven or eight of these

other guys that we've mentioned. Lamar Odom had issues. So we're saying no Kyrie. Yeah. But that was a little different. Cause he did leave as a straight free agent. But it was... Yeah, it was like passive-aggressive sabotage.

It was such a bad time. I'm putting him in. He deserves to be in. Kawhi, yes. Jimmy Butler, yes. Andrew Bynum, yes. And then... The Bynum one I forgot about.

Scottie Pippen, no, because I love Scotty. He was one of my favorites. Fuck that. We're not putting him in the saboteur. I'll fan for not getting the foot surgery or ankle surgery until after the season started. Last but not least, then we're going to go. Zion Williamson, yes or no? All right.

So it feels like it's heading in that direction now. But I've been told a couple different direction now. Um, but I've, I've been told a couple of different things here. One, the weight thing is actually a little exaggerated. And, you know, speaking of,

we were talking about like, can he's apparently one of those guys who can cut down pretty quickly. Um, it's hard for us to go full blown, you know, who is this guy? I think he is type of thing. When the reports are all over the place,

like clearly he could do a better job of relaying the communication with his team. CJ McCollum saying that stuff on TNT during All-Star break, that wasn't an accident. He clearly was doing that on purpose to try to either get to Zion or be like, look, you need to be more mature about this. You need to be more accountable. I think that's part of the problem with it. But I still feel like people think because he's going to want this rookie max extension, that this can be salvageable and there's still another version of him playing again with the pelicans i'm not saying it's going to be awesome i'm not saying it's going to solve everybody's problems i'm not going to say that some point down the road he's not going to ask for that trade because that's kind of what

guys do now is they get the full max and then they ask to transfer essentially but when someone says he'll never play in another pelicans he'll never play in a pelicans uniform again i don't know that i'm i wouldn't sign off on that yet. I said that three days ago. Oh, okay. No, I'm,

you might be right. I just feels like it's done when they put, didn't put them in the season ticket thing. I don't, I don't know how you unwind that at that point. Okay. So you, you're saying no way he doesn't,

he doesn't play for him again. I just, I have no inside Intel. I just feels to me, five decades of experience watching this league we love feels like it's a wrap. Feels like they trade him this summer. I would probably want to trade him

to be honest with you. The other thing that sucks with the Pelicans, you realize there's a 500 team since that disaster started. I know. And if they had Zion with CJ, who's good?

Like CJ's good. Brandon Ingram's good. Herb Jones has been really good for him. Jonas. Jonas is a good player. You know, there's still a couple younger guys that are only, you know, one or two years into their careers.

Also, they can get in the play-in. They could get a 10 seed pretty easily. Yeah, so, I mean, it kind of sucks because I actually think this front office has done a better job than people would ever realize. Like, if you actually looked at it and go, oh, you know what they've done? And Willie's a good coach.

You know, I think they've upgraded a lot of stuff with how they've, you know, it was a pretty cheap organization for a long time. And know what they've done? And Willie's a good coach. I think they've upgraded a lot of stuff with how they've... It was a pretty cheap organization for a long time, and I think they've done a better job with some of the expenditures and making sure people are taken care of that work behind the scenes. But I'd love to see that city, and I love that place down there. I'd love for them to be able to figure out a way to get Zanon to play with this group and see what it looks like. I would be scared of giving them a max too, considering how bad the season has gone. The NBA Saboteur Hall of Fame, our scouts will be monitoring the Zion situation. But for now,

those are our inductees. We're wrapping this up. We're going to be back next Sunday. I'm excited. I'm going to a bunch of live basketball next week too. So I want to try to get back in the habit of actually going to games. Yeah, I think I'm going to try to get into that Lakers-Waters game. Yeah, there's some good ones coming up. And the Lakers, the way it is for them now, it's like basically a playoff game every game

because you don't want to be the ninth seed or the 10th seed and have to win the two road games just to get in the playoffs. Not to mention you have to play Phoenix too. We left a lot on the bone. We'll be back next Sunday. We'll have a lot more to talk about. Good to see you, Rosillo.

Thanks, Ben. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Craig Horlbeck, as always, for producing. Thanks to Rosillo. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Dylan Berkey. Don't forget about the rewatchables coming Monday. Don't forget that we will be on this feed on Tuesday and on Thursday this week. See you later in the week. Feel the air Sweat down On the wayside

On the first I never was And I don't have To say