The Bill Simmons Podcast - Harden's Tear, Panic Buttons, and Midseason All-NBA Teams With Zach Lowe | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 469)

Episode Date: January 16, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by his old pal, ESPN's Zach Lowe, to talk panic-button NBA teams coming up on the trade deadline, intriguing NBA trade possibilities, midseason All-NBA front-runners, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you as always by ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? Assuming the last time you did a podcast with Zach Lowe, everything was going to be all right with the Celtics. That wasn't smart. You know what else is the smart job sites that overwhelm you? Tons of the wrong resumes. Luckily, a smart way exists at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. They tell you what people have the right skills for your job. They actively invite them to apply. Right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Meanwhile, let's talk about Skittles.

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Coming up, my old friend, my Grantland teammate, Zach Lowe. But first, Pearl Jam. All right, here to talk about the 2019 Oscars, Zach Lowe. Zach, I know no favorites really emerged for you. Who do you have, though? Who's your leading contender right now? How many 2018 movies have you seen? The favorite?

That's a movie, right? Yeah, that's a good one. I saw, give me some. I saw Black Panther. That was awesome. Wow. All right. That was a 2018 movie.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. None of the prestige ones I don't think of. Mission Impossible, Fallout, is that nominated? Or whatever the most recent Mission Impossible was, is that nominated for anything? It won't be nominated for Best Picture, but it should be. It's disappointing.

It's really, really good. I saw that. You're watching basketball. You're on the weird NBA websites. You're on Second Spectrum. You're rerunning pick and rolls of various teams. You're on the weird NBA websites. You're on Second Spectrum. You're rerunning pick and rolls of various teams. You don't have time for movies.

This has become a really goofy NBA season just in the last week since I went on your podcast. I feel like a lot has changed. I don't understand how that's possible since we just— When did we record? Six days ago? Seven? It feels like four Celtics turning points ago. Yeah. I don't want to start with that. It's too cliched. We'll wrap around with them. Let's start with Memphis.

You tweeted, you thought they were at some sort of tipping point for where they want to go. By the way, we're going to do all NBA teams. We're going to do our midseason all NBA teams and talk a couple all-star debates coming up later. But I did want to talk about a couple of panic button teams because the trade deadline is weirdly on February 7th, which is not that far away all of a sudden. It's like three and a half weeks. It's great. It's 11 days before my daughter's birthday, which is all I care about. It's liberated me from trade deadline

prison on her birthday. Yeah, but then you'll probably have some buyout, some Robin Lopez buyout right at like three in the morning, the day of the birthday, I would say what's going to happen. So Memphis is in an especially weird spot. They had some playoff hopes there for a little bit. It fell apart. Gasol just went in the tank over the last month. I'm not just physically just did not seem like the same guy. And now they really have a chance to be the second worst team in the West, which is what they should want. Boston gets their pick unless it falls in the top eight. Next year, Boston gets their pick unless it falls in the top six. And it eventually goes unprotected. But if I'm Memphis,

I just want to finish in the top eight and get another lottery pick this year. Is it time? Is it time to break up Conley and Gasol? What would you do? See, I think Memphis wants the opposite. It'll depend on how they do in the next month, but they would rather get this obligation over with and give the Celtics the 10th pick in this draft and roll it over when the protections get even lighter and maybe Gasol leaves, maybe Conley's a year old. I think Memphis, according to everyone I've talked to, would rather just get it over with now unless they spiral so badly that it becomes, oh, we have a chance at a top whatever pick. I mean, they'd have to spiral a little bit more than they are currently.

But I think they want to get it over with now and just give Boston the pick. But, yeah, I mean, look, they're 19-24. They're 14th in the West already. They're not going to get to 14th in the West. They're there. Their next four games are absolutely brutal. It's like Milwaukee, Boston, Toronto, Pelicans, who are surging now that they're healthy and playing with some urgency.

If you're 19- 28, it's over. You're done. You're not going to make the playoffs in the West. You're nine games under. You're out. And you at least have to pick up the phone and see. Now, maybe you don't want to do it. Maybe you don't do it.

No one in the league thinks they're going to do it. But don't you have to see? Like, what can we get? Maybe just put out some feelers, something, pick up the phone? I would do it personally. So you said they're 19 and 24. In the East, every non-playoff team is 19 and 24 or worse. But two and maybe three of those teams have not shown that they want to tank at.

Orlando is 19 and 24. Detroit's 18 and 24. Washington's 18 and24, Washington's 18-26, but Beal is playing out of his mind. And that does not seem like a team that's ready to roll over yet for whatever reason. So it's really hard for me to imagine how Memphis doesn't end up in the bottom eight. I don't see a path. You would almost need, you'd need Minnesota to crater. You'd need Sacramento to crater. You would need Anthony Davis to get hurt. You'd need Minnesota to crater. You'd need Sacramento to crater. You would need Anthony Davis to get hurt.

You'd need some sort of thing that's out of the loop in the West for that to happen. My thing is just, if you can get off Conley's contract now, because it's clear now, he's in the 30s. I put him in the trade value in the top 55 because he was playing so well and it seemed like they were going to be a playoff team. But now, for me, if they can put Conley and Gasol together and just start over and really bottom out this year, get the one more lottery pick, they're going to give up something good

to the Celtics anyway. But yeah, I don't feel like that can control how they think about this. Or do you feel differently? No, I don't think it should govern right i mean like you could the way that they avoid being in the top eight is playing better i mean that's it that's the only remedy they really have it's the only thing they can control they can look at the beginning part of the season when they got off to a hot start and

say okay we have we have we have hope but man i mean you just i didn't think they were going to be good and i was surprised at how good they were out of the gate this is more kind of in line with what i thought this team was, which is Gasol and Conley and really not much else. I mean, Triple J is exciting, but he's a rookie. I love Triple J. I love him. He's tailor-made for me. I love him. And you could build – Gasol is tough because he's maybe on an expiring.

No one really knows what he's going to do with that option, and the market for centers is not, you know, robust Conley. If you were willing to eat one bad contract, you, there are some interesting Conley deals you could build. If you're where you get a pick back,

but you eat a, a Solomon Hill sized contract or a pick a bad Detroit sized contract. They're like Reggie Jackson. There are some interesting deals you could build. That's all I'm saying. Do you think they would have to eat a deal to trade Conley? To trade Conley and get the kind of asset that they want? Yes, I think they would have to eat a deal that is maybe like a year shorter than Conley

and half the size. Like you add up like a Solomon Hill plus another expiring to make the money work. Plus you get one good asset. That's like the Kevin Love kind of deal. If this trade deadline would be so much more interesting if Kevin Love were healthy. Solomon Hill plus another expiring to make the money work plus you get a one good asset that's like the Kevin Love kind of deal if this trade deadline would be so much more interesting if Kevin Love were healthy like that that's the one I really wish he were healthy because he's got I think he has a foot injury right and he's just starting to do stuff again which means even if they say he'll return whenever I think they said February 1 or whatever they said you know he's not

going to be in shape and he's like he's good it's going to take him a month like you can't trade for Kevin Love in this season and think we're getting really good peak all-star Kevin Love right away so Gasol I remember when I was working on the trade value he was basically a 20 and 10 guy for the first I don't know six weeks of the season, and was making threes, which was a new wrinkle, a relatively new wrinkle. And in the last 21 games, he's basically 12.7 points, 7.6 rebounds. He's not making threes anymore. He looks old. And I'm not sure what kind of trade value he even has

as these games keep progressing. I guess he has a player option at the end of this year, or he could lock himself in to $24 million, whatever it is. It's funny. I was going to ask you about this trade, and freaking J.E. Skeets, damn that dude, he tweets the exact trade I was going to ask you about. He beat me by like an hour today.

Maybe it's when I didn't see it. Maybe it's when I'm – I've been spending a lot of fake trade time lately. This is my favorite in a while. It's Gasol and Conley to Dallas for the DeAndre expiring, the Wesley Matthews expiring, and Dennis Smith Jr. And basically Dallas saying, we'll take those contracts off your hands. And if you're Memphis, neither of them are on the books next year.

You can put DSJ, who I'm not a huge fan of, but I think some teams are. He's at least an asset that they could flip if they wanted. And then you're just starting over next year. You have really no major contracts except for the Chandler Parsons disaster. It's a get out of jail free card for them if they just want to get out of those deals. Um,

would you think about that if you were Memphis? Why does that make sense for Dallas is to me, but the more press, I mean, I, I it's, it's a, it's an interesting trade. It's just a lot of money for Dallas to take on. I mean, you're becoming, you're becoming the Grizzlies plus Luca, but, but are you, are you getting anywhere with that team? And Harrison Barnes. And Harrison Barnes, who's not expiring too.

So here's why I wouldn't do it, because of the way Gasol's been playing the last five weeks. And you're imprisoned by that option. Like if he opts in, that means he's had a really bad finish to the season or continues playing like this, and he's just on your books. And if he opts out, then he opts out and you have to make

a decision already. So plan B for the same trade. Just DeAndre for Gasol. It's just a flip. I don't see Memphis. That's selling too low for Memphis. I just think Mark means so much to their team and their franchise. I just don't see them. That's a salary dump

basically. I just don't. I don't see it. Alright, so what if portland says evan turner and zach collins for gasol will do that right now you've talked us into it don't see it i think nurkic has been better than gasol for the last six years i think i think portland just says we have a really good center nurkic is on a bargain deal it's four years 48 and the last year is like partially guaranteed i think you guaranteed. If Portland is going to make a play, and I'm ruining all my trade columns that are coming out the next month, but I don't care.

I think Portland is going to be aggressive, particularly if you look at the way Aminu's slumping. Harkless is always in and out of the lineup. I think Memphis is going to be aggressive trying to find help, but I don't think it's at center. Sorry, Portland.

I think Nerkic might be at least is going to be aggressive trying to find help, but I don't think it's at center. Sorry, Portland. I think Nurkic might be at least honorable mention for trade value because of the way he's been playing. Does him saying, I don't care what Iman Shumpert says because he's going to be retired next year, does that help his trade value? I think it helps his trade value. It was the best day of 2019. It was a good one.

I guess for Gasol, there might not be a trade team. Because I went through it. It was the best day of 2019. It was a good one. I guess for Gasol there might not be a trade team because I went through it. It's like, oh, there's somebody. But, you know, most teams have a center they either like

or kind of like or they don't really have the contract to flip for them or they just don't want to spend $24 million to bring some big lumbering dude in. Can I give you mine?

I'm spoiling my comment. I don't care. I don't care. Let's just throw caution to the wind. Can I give you one? I would love it. I don't care. I don't care. Let's just throw caution to the wind. What is it? Can I give you one? I would love it. I don't think they'd do this either,

but I've long been interested in the idea of Gasol for Andre Drummond. Oh, wow. So Detroit gets off Drummond's contract, which they've been trying to do off and on for like two years, and Memphis can kind of sell that as like, well, maybe change the scenery. He's still pretty young. He can lob, catch lobs and do this and that.

And like, you know, it's something. I don't know. It's just interesting to me. Kind of like that one. I don't think Memphis does it because I bet they view Drummond as almost a negative asset. But again, as you're saying,

it's not like they're going to get two first round picks and a good young player for Marc Gasol. It's just not going to happen. Well, what's not like they're going to get two first-round picks and a good young player for Marc Gasol. It's just not going to happen. Well, what do you think they see with Triple J? Do you think they see him as a five or somebody who can play next to a center and he'd be more successful that way? I think the value of him is both, you know, depending on who the other guy is.

To me, he's a little more five-ish, but as he extends his range a little bit, I think he's going to be pretty malleable in like a, you know, to use a cliche, sort of an Al Horford kind of way where if he's younger, as long as he's young and athletic, he can defend a lot of fours just fine. I like him as a

five if my goal is to eventually win the title. I think that's fair. Because he's basically everything you'd want. He's already hitting threes at a ridiculous rate for a 19-year-old. Who's your favorite, out of curiosity, out of DeAndre Ayton, Wendell Carter, and Triple J? Well, right now it's Triple J. That's how I feel too.

I do like Ayton more than most people do. I think he's made tangible progress already defensively this season from like completely clueless to beginning to get a clue, but that's still progress. And Wendell Carter lately looks overwhelmed by his responsibility on the Bulls Leadership Council. It looks like it's really getting to him. They extended their coach the day after they lost by 37.

Did the leadership council have to pass that? I think they did. I think by at least 60. I think it should be for coach extensions. I think it should be 60%, not just a simple majority. I think it should be 60% of the leadership council. Is Jerry Reinstorf like trapped under something? What's he doing?

Is he in the Bahamas with weighted ankle bracelets in the sand somewhere? I think it was Ricky O'Donnell at SB Nation who made a great joke about he was somewhere clutching his autographed Paul Canerco bat. That was pretty good. Do you think he remembered that he owns

the Bulls? I just don't understand how they haven't gotten rid of one of these two front office guys who have put them in this mess now for really the whole decade. Although the one thing that maybe they get a little credit for is getting out of Tibbs as the league was changing. I still defend Tibbs as a coach. I just feel like the league kind of shifted on him a little bit and the stuff that he was good at.

Really, 2004 would have been the all-time Tibbs wheelhouse year, right? When there were these 72 to 68 playoff games. That's where Tibbs needs to go back in a time machine and go back 15 years. That could be the case. And we get the Jimmy Bowl tonight. Are you going to watch the Jimmy Bowl, Minnesota-Philly? I am.

Because Wiggins, I could see Wiggins having, we talked about Wiggins last week. I know your growing fascination with Wiggins is starting to worry me. I'm starting to get a little worried. I didn't expect him to come up again in this one. I just could see him going for like 49 tonight. And, you know, Towns, who I still have not sorted out my feelings on, but, you know, is a guy who can put up 30 points and 27 rebounds

in some random game one night. And how many guys in the league can actually do that? Like five? Yeah, Towns is awesome. Maybe he just needed to get away from Jimmy Butler. The other trade I have for you. Ooh. By the way, oh, one more thing with Conley.

I'm just throwing this out. Indiana's got a bunch of expiring contracts. They're not totally happy with their point guards, and Conley's from Indiana. And I don't know if there's something there. Now that I like. I don't see Indiana doing that just because of the age timetable of the rest of their team.

But that's interesting. Indiana is really good, and they are somewhat worried, I think, about whether they're a better regular season team than a playoff team, whether they need a little more juice somewhere. That's interesting. It's an interesting one. They have $18 million in expiring point guard contracts, Darren Collison and Corey Joseph.

They also have Tyreek Evans for one year, 12.4, and they have Bogdanovich for 10.5 expiring. And they have Thad Young for 13.8 expiring. So they're equipped to make any kind of trade. And if you're the Pacers, see, I feel like teams should think this way more often. They're saving their cap space for guys that are never coming there.

I just don't see a marquee free agent being like, you know where I'm going? Indiana. So why not trade for somebody who has a couple years left on his contract who's either an all-star or borderline all-star? We talked about this on the Low Post podcast last week, I think with regard to the Jazz for some reason. That's another good example, though. I totally agree. And I said it last week. I actually think one of these teams,

not one of these two teams that we just mentioned, I think a team that would otherwise have a lot of cap space is going to make this kind of trade, where they identify a player with two or three years left on his deal that his team, for whatever reason, doesn't want, but is still pretty good, and take a shot at saying, that guy fits in our system. I guess the Jay Crowder deal for Utah was kind of like that, pretty good and take a shot at saying that guy fits, that guy fits in our system. Like, like,

I mean, I guess the Jay Crowder deal for Utah was kind of like that, but like I, even on a bigger scale, I could see a team doing that and just saying, look, we're not going to get who we want free agency. Let's just take a shot on somebody.

So you think Drummond is somebody like that too? I wouldn't want Drummond. I'm out on him. You don't think he's a take a shot at guy? I wouldn't take a shot at him. I wouldn't either. I'm out on all expensive centers who can't shoot free throws and you kind of have to accommodate your team

to make whatever work with them. Did you see Pistons-Kings the other day? Yeah, I did actually. So can I... I got a little fired up about that game. That was the game where they let Blake stay in L.A. because it was between the Lakers and the Clippers games for Detroit, I think. Yeah.

So if you're Andre Drummond, Blake Griffin's out. For whatever reason, he's out. He's not even with the team. He's out. You're now the max player star of the Detroit Pistons who are a crappy borderline playoff team who are dying to make the playoffs. Dying. They would release

Jack Cancook's balloons from the ceiling in Detroit. As a Lakers reference, if they got the eighth seed. You're at Sacramento, which is a winnable game. You're not the favorite in that game, but that's a winnable road game. If you are a max player

in the NBA, even if you can't post up, you can't shoot jump shots, if you're Andre Drummond max player, you come out in that game and you're like, I'm getting 20 rebounds. I'm getting 20 rebounds and nobody is getting to the rim in this game. I'm going to run the floor like all hell and I'm going to at least go for 18 and 25

and do everything I can to win this game by myself or lift my team up. He completely no-showed the game. Totally no-showed. I think he had like 11-8, got run off the floor by Willie Colley-Stein, got run off the floor by Harry Johns, got run off the floor by their whole team. And if you watch that, that was like, that was the game where Canard went off on the bench. Like Canard was mouthing off to the coaches on the bench.

Luke Canard. That was like one of the lowest moments for a pretty low franchise and it was like that is the distillation of why i do not want andre drummond on my team that's just for the contract he's making now you he no showed a game where like a real max player comes out and is like i'm getting 20 and 20 i got very angry about that game jesus that was a real rant I hope Andre Drummond heard it Do you not agree? No, it's, look I think sometimes if you're an expensive player, it's your responsibility

to show up on a night when your team needs you Get me 20 rebounds, like you're not gonna he's not gonna become Hakeem Olajuwon and get me 30 and start making jump hooks and fadeaways but do what you do, go out and get me 20 rebounds and do not let Willie Colley-Stein run you off the floor. This is my issue with Kyrie.

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All right, so Kyrie, who does a lot of... I had him on a podcast. I really liked him. I think he cares about winning. I think his heart's in the right place. Does a lot of talking about leadership and pointing fingers at different people and the responsibilities that everybody has and all this stuff. And yet it doesn't seem like he knows how to be a leader because I just look at the ebb and flow of this season and the Celtics team and Miami Thursday night.

They're coming off the best game they've played the whole year against the Pacers. They kill the Pacers at home. Things are going great. Everything is set up for them to suck the following night on TNT against Miami, a team that they've always had trouble with, right? If you're just looking at the schedule, you're like, oh, they're going to

be in trouble that game. To me, that's a franchise player game. That is a game where in the first half, Kyrie senses, man, this one could go sideways on us. I'm going to establish the tone early. I'm one of the best eight offensive players in the league. I'm going to put up 22 in the first half. I want to make sure this game doesn't get away from us. Nothing. And he ended up having a pretty good game, but it was the same thing as always with him where he waits to get involved until they're down 15.

The team's whatever. It's a messed-up game. Morris and Brown get in the shoving match. Two days later, the play breaks down on the last play. Kyrie is yelling at Brad Stevens before they even go on the court. He completely sells out where the play goes on court with like, he does a whole throws his hand thing. And then he yells at Gordon Hayward on his way out. Like he's showing up basically multiple guys in the team. And then he's pointing the fingers at the young guys after the game.

And it's like, this isn't how to lead people. You're not leading people correctly. If you're a real leader, none of this stuff is ever public. None of the passive aggressive Twitter shit that LeBron does. Everything you're supposed to do as a leader is underground behind the scenes.

Nobody knows about it or sees it. That's how you lead. Doesn't seem like he knows how to do this. What's your take just watching from afar? So two things. Number one, the Orlando play. You know, if there were four or five seconds left, I would understand Kyrie's point more than I do

of throw Al the ball, and I'm going to cut from half court and get a good shot off i think there was 2.1 right was 2.1 yeah like 2.7 i think 2.7 yeah that's not a lot of time and i don't mind the decision there to go to tatum for a mid-range jumper on the baseline if that shot goes in which it almost did kairi looks like a fool and people are writing a story about how Hayward made the right decision in the moment. Yeah, because he was gesturing before Tatum even shot the ball.

So I don't – that I actually kind of sympathize more with Hayward than Kyrie. I don't mind that decision by Hayward at all. I think that getting a good shot inbounding to Horford and waiting for the handoff there is more complicated. When I had Jackie on my pod about a month ago when she wrote her big Jalen Brown feature, I said, I asked her, I mean, she's around the team more than I am. I asked her, this is going to sound stupid, Jackie, but do you think anyone is going to get tired of hearing Kyrie say after every fourth game

that he's won a championship and he made a shot in big, a big shot in game seven. And he understands what it is to be in big moments. And I said that knowing like, dude, he did all that's true. The guy has been to all the four finals. He has won a championship. He has made one of the most iconic, most important shots in the history of the NBA. Like all credit to him. I would talk about it every day.

I just could see Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum and Gordon Hayward and everyone else on that team being like, okay, man, we got it. We got it. We made game seven last year without you. Well, that's what made it funny when he was like, these young guys don't understand what it takes. It's like, I'm pretty sure they do. They were within a minute of making the finals last year.

It's not like this was, you took over the Orlando Magic and they were 22 and 60. And by the way, if you were a leader, why weren't you at that game? He wasn't even on the bench for game seven. It's like, I don't think you can be the,

I'm the leader, I've won a title. You've got to back that up all the time. And part of backing it up is like the shit that James Harden's doing in Houston, where it's like, I'm not rolling over. I am carrying us.

This is, I am the best player on this team. I kind of thought that's what the Celtics thought they were getting with Kyrie and he can show flashes of it and he'll do it for a game. He'll do it for a quarter. He'll do it for a fourth quarter and overtime. But I really think, I think part of being a franchise player is sniffing out those nights when you know your team might not have it and that Miami game on Thursday night is a perfect example

that all the signs were there for a shit performance and he could have just prevented and he didn't I think um like there are a lot of coaches who have had to learn this lesson right like you can say you can say stuff to players behind closed doors that is pretty harsh but if you go out in the media and say they were soft or they didn't play hard or whatever like that like they get mad they remember you you can only play that card i think mike malone figured that out in denver that's a recent example you can only play that card in the media like twice in a season yeah without without alienating the players and i think the same logic applies to star players.

And Kyrie's not saying it with those, like he's not, I don't know if he said the word soft yet. Somebody said soft at some point, but I don't know if it was him. He's not using language that is all that pointed, but I just don't think you can say this often all the stuff you've done that the other guys in the locker room have not done, even if it's true, even if that is a locker room that needs leadership other than Al Horford, and even if you are a guy that I think probably a lot of the young players are happy to look to for leadership.

You've talked before about how the younger generation of NBA players idolizes Kyrie. I think all that's true. I just think you've just got to dial back the frequency with which these comments are public. Well, and that's a really good point, that last point you made. He carries a lot of weight with these guys because they idolize him. He's one of the best basketball players in the league. And when he says anything, it matters.

And I don't know. I think he, by all accounts, was pretty strange in Cleveland. You know, I remember somebody who played on the team in the last season told me that there'd just be weeks where he would just, just was out of the loop. Like they didn't know what was going on with him. He just wouldn't talk to anybody. And, you know, I don't think he's like a natural leader.

I think he's more of a lead by example. He's a little mercurial. He certainly seemed to have issues with LeBron and whether he was the sidekick or whatever. But when he came to Boston, I really bought into the whole Kyrie's an alpha dog. Kyrie wanted his own team. Kyrie wants to lead. And he goes to Boston. They start with that winning streak right after Hayward gets hurt. And it really seemed like, oh man, they bought in at the perfect time. This guy, he is a leader. I haven't seen it this year.

And if this is his idea of leadership, it's not working. And this team has other problems. And you can see it in that Jackie piece. I listened to that podcast. I read the piece. It was a month ago. It was clearly something was off. And the Jalen is part of it, the Roier part of it and then uh and then obviously hayward

just being a shell of himself which is to a lot of this is not unpredictable right like hayward hayward taking a long time to get back to being hayward and not being close is predictable the younger guys the guy not younger guys younger it just feels pejorative to say that the guys who were in bigger than expected roles last year and did well yeah being in lesser roles this year and having difficulty with that all of that is predictable which is why if you had told me the celtics are 25 if you had told me three months ago the celtics will be 25 and 18 with the third or fourth best point differential in the league now if you want to take out the 55 whatever win 55.1 against the bulls or whatever the hell it was um then say they're the seventh best point differential in the league. Now, if you want to take out the 55-point win against the Bulls or whatever the hell it was,

then say they're the seventh best point differential in the league. I would say that sounds, without any drama, without any finger-pointing and shoving and blah, blah, I would say, you know, that's not terrible. Like, I can see them having a better second half of the season. They'll be tough in the playoffs and this and that. But it's all the noise that is troublesome, not the results almost. Yeah, it's an unhappy team.

It really does seem unhappy. And I think the most surprising thing to me is that from a talent standpoint, they're not just blowing teams out, you know, blowing the door off teams. Like the Nets last night. The Nets are a team that is marginally talented that plays really hard. And the Celtics got, we're down 27 to them. It's inexplicable.

I know they're missing a couple guys, but it's just like, that to me is like a cry for help. When you're falling behind by 25, 30 points to teams that just aren't in your class, you know? So here's the other elephant in the room with the Kyrie thing. I don't even think the Celtics know if he's resigning. I think there was some wink-wink stuff before the season. I think they're confident he's resigning, but there's certainly no contract. It would be illegal to agree to something before the year.

What if Kyrie just decides this sucks? I'd rather go to New York. I think that's in play. I don't feel 100% that he's coming back. And I think the worse this gets, that becomes a storyline. And maybe, you know, maybe I shouldn't even mention it. But as you say, I think you may have just made a point. I don't think it's's 100 that he signs with them this summer i really don't i was thinking about this last night um actually i was going to start texting some people and then i got distracted i wonder if the knicks

are i was this is what i was thinking that's all so i was thinking i said i wonder if the people i know within the knicks are watching this thinking huh you know i know he said that thing at the season ticket holder event where what he whatever he said know, if they'll have me back, I'm happy to come back, essentially announcing his intention to resign. He said, I'm going to be back next year, whatever he said. It made it seem like I'm back. And he had told Danny Ainge and the higher-ups a little bit before that event that he was going to say that, I think is what the story was. I know he said that, and there would be very little precedent for someone proclaiming something in that kind of arena and then, and then doing something else.

But obviously even the skeptics at that time said, okay, you know, we're eight months from that moment or whatever we are, like we got to wait and see nine months to whatever it was. You know, I, I did think last night, you know, and when that, when he said that, I do think a lot of teams in the league like brooklyn and the knicks kind of went okay well i guess that's that's off the table for us yeah um or or check maybe something's got to really go wrong now and i i thought i was just thinking

of myself last night i wonder if there's people in the knicks front office in particular that are looking around saying oh that's interesting that's interesting. That's interesting. I 100% promise you there is. And I think over these next three weeks, deadlines February 7th, how hard the Knicks try to get off the Hardaway contract and the Courtney Lee contract is going to be a red flag for some of this. So if they're giving away like future first round picks with Hardaway and getting an expiring contract pack or whatever it takes, and it's a deal that it's like, hmm, why would you be doing that? If it really seems like you're confident you're getting two free agents, that would make me nervous as a Celtic fan. If it's a deal that signals we are not afraid to trade our 2021 first round pick because we think we're going to

be good that if that's the subtext yeah i mean um yeah it's like we'll trade all right dallas here's tim hardaway for wesley matthews but we're also giving you our unprotected 2021 pick i'd be like whoa wait a second what uh so i don't know and't know. And then you flip it around. It's like, all right, if you're the Celtics, you have three weeks left to improve this team. You have four first round picks potentially. You have a bunch of young guys. You can mix and match contracts in a lot of interesting ways.

Is Kyrie on the table? Are you even thinking that way? Is Kyrie untradeable right now I guess is my question I think he's untradeable right now well I mean no one is untradeable right there's three guys in the league who are untradeable I think everything and and particularly this team being a disappointment so far and again like hey Hayward maybe look may look like a completely different player in six months than he looks now, but this team, looking like they're not as good as Toronto, Milwaukee, obviously the Warriors if the Warriors start rolling again,

I think only increases their urgency to keep things ready for Anthony Davis. And it would be easy to say, well, I'm going to just trade Kyrie for Anthony Davis because they can't have both on the roster this season or are allowed to, so they have to wait until the summer, blah, blah. Everything we just said about all these players love Kyrie, everybody wants to play with Kyrie, points to the fact that if they think they have a shot at Anthony Davis, I think they need Kyrie to be in play for that to be a thing that is appealing to Anthony Davis.

So complicated. I wonder what would happen if Doc Rivers called them right now and said, we'll trade you Shea, Jogis Alexander, and the Beaubon and Milos expirings for Kyrie right now. Shea, what just happened? First of all, I thought you were just going to call him the Beaubon. The Beaubon. I thought you were just going to call him the Boban. The Boban. I thought you were just going to call him the Boban. I was trying to think, could they turn Kyrie into assets to go make the power play for Anthony Davis right now?

Because you can't trade for Davis until July. I don't know. I'm just thinking a lot. I don't think I've adequately been able to explain how upset I am about the Celtics thing. Yeah, that one flummoxed me. I just got flummoxed for a second there. The moment you said the Beaubon, I started to get confused. I said the Beaubon-Milos expiring contracts.

I know. I know there was a... Did you see Beaubon riding around on the RV last night? No. I think it was last night. I don't know. I was watching the Clippers-Pelicans game this morning, and on one of the commercial breaks, when they came back from commercial, there was a shot of Beaubon riding around

the bowels of the Clippers Arena in an RV where it looked like a children's RV because Beaubon was on it. But it was, as Ralph Lawler clarified, a regular-sized RV. Let's talk Harden really quick. He's up to, last time on your podcast, which was nine weeks ago, but actually it was six days ago, I talked about the 33-point club. He's now at 34.8. That's insane.

Which the 35-point club is Wilt five times, Jordan, Rick Barry, Kobe Bryant. Has not happened since 2006. I don't even think you said this on my pod. I think you said this with Joe House the next day because I listened to that one. Anyway, we're getting into podcast music. Oh, you're right. We didn't talk about this. My bad.

I'm sorry. I love you equally. 2019 Harden compared to 2006 Kobe compared to 1988 Jordan. It's really funny. So these are like the three great shooting guard performances just statistically of the last 30 years, right? Jordan, 35 a game, didn't shoot threes. Took 0.6 three-point field goals a game, made 13% of them. But still was able to get to 35 because he shot 54%.

24 field goals a game, 10.5 free throws. Kobe now 06. People are starting to take threes more. 35 a game, 10.5 free throws. Kobe now 06. People are starting to take threes more. 35 a game for him. 27 field goal attempts, 10 free throw attempts, 6.5 threes. And now you have Harden, 35. Only 23 field goal attempts, which is the lowest of all three of those guys. 11 free throw attempts, 12.8 three-point field goal attempts, which is the lowest of all three of those guys. 11 free throw attempts. 12.8

three-point field goal attempts. So that's basically the story of the league over the course of 30 years through three guys. It's amazing. And Harden now has a chance. I remember you and I on a podcast when I was at Grantland, we were talking about how Harden was in the There was one year where Harden had a chance to have

like 800 free throws and 800 three-point attempts. It was like the 800-600 club. Or there was some club. And I was like, wow, imagine if he took eight threes a game and 10 free throws. I forget what the benchmarks were. Now he's creating 11.1 free throw attempts and 12.8 three point field goals there's a chance there's a chance

he could have 900 free throw attempts and like 1100 three point field goal attempts I was going to say he should step up the free throws and try and go for 1000 and 1000 that would be cooler I mean the 1000 club I'm positive has has never happened.

I don't even think the 500, 500 club has happened. But the stuff he's doing is out of control. And now there's been, this week he knew it would start. Is this sustainable? Can he keep this up? If you're the Rockets, is it worth it to do this? I've gone the other way. I feel like this is now becoming one of the most iconic statistical seasons

we've had. Like, this is his version of 62 Wilt, of 2006 Kobe, of... I forget which bird season was the great stat season, but everybody has

their one season. This is his season. I kind of want him to go for it. What do you want? First of all, if you look at his basketball reference page, the sheer number of

numbers that are in bold. Bold is when you lead the league. It's like half the thing is in bold. He's led the league in free throws five years in a row. I watched who did they play last night? I don't even remember. It doesn't even matter. Grizzlies? Rockets-Grizzlies, I think.

I watched it too, and I also can't remember who they played. matter Grizzlies Rockets Grizzlies I think I watched it too and I also can't remember who they played and I'm watching the first half and I'm like oh Harden's having a good game oh yeah

it's a pretty close game oh wow just made a step back three Rockets just went up by two that's okay 36-34 and then like it was like 40-38

and Matt Bullard on the color commentary for Houston said something like that's 32 now for Harden with four minutes to go in the first half. I was like, he has 32 points? I thought he had like 18.

He had 30. Like I was watching the whole game. I had no idea he had 32 points already. It was crazy. He's going to have a quiet 60 one day. Like it's 54 for James Harden. What? I couldn't believe it.

22. It was obscene. It was like obscene. Well, who would have thought Austin Rivers was the best trade of the decade? Replacing the Harden trade. The lineups,

they are running out there. And CP, Gordon, and Capella are obviously three of their four best players. They're all hurt. I mean, so it's understandable. But the lineups that are running out there,

I mean, it's like a joke. These guys are a two-way guy here, a former two-way guy there. Austin Rivers has been on 19 teams in the last four years. And like Nene, the corpse of Nene,

Marquise Cris plays for two minutes, airballs a three by four feet and gets pulled out of the game. Hartenstein, Hartenstein gets pulled out of the game. It's like they're playing these nobodies. If he can keep this up, the problem is he's going to, again,

if and when they lose in the playoffs and he has three bad games in a row, everyone's going to say, well, he just wore himself out in January. I don't think Austin Rivers is a nobody. To me, he's a playoff-proven valuable player. No, I don't. But I've always been. I'm on Austin Rivers Island. No, I've always been there with you.

I've said before, if his name were Austin Smith, people would say, oh, he's a decent rotation guard. I think he's a fine NBA player. But if he's in some lineups easily the second best player, it's like, oh my God. He's kind of found his calling playing with Harden because he doesn't have to have the ball that much and he kind of knows what to do without it.

So Harden's usage rate is creeping toward 40, which I enjoy. The only one who ever broke 40 was our man Russ in 2017 with the 41.65 usage rate. 39.9 right now for Harden. Yeah. So it's up there. Kobe was third with that. I think this keeps going. And I think he can get, I was trying to do the math. So he's like,what's he, like 42 a game or something for the last 17? Something like that? Yeah, since CP got hurt, he's over 40, whatever that is.

All right, so we're halfway through the season. He's at 35. Is it conceivable he goes for 40 a game the rest of the way? It feels conceivable. I was going to say 40 for the season. I thought I was going to say that sounds a little conceivable. No, that's crazy. But if you just do the math, if he's 34.8 first half of the season,

and let's give him 40 for the second half of the season, that puts him at 37.5, which is basically just him and Wilt. Like, that's insane. What is happening? Well, the step back three is the shot that changed everything. I mean, much has been written about that and how revolutionary it is and both in its simplicity and its audaciousness. It's a shot that just even Curry has never taken them like this.

And it's in part because Harden's a little taller, so he doesn't need to bob and weave as much to get it off. And you just think about, like, well, what are you supposed to do? If you double-team him at half-court, someone's going to get a dunk or an open three. And you want to say, well, just press up on him, press up on him. But you can't do that because then he just blows by you and gets to the rim. And so, I mean, you're going to see teams toy with stuff like the Bucs did last week.

But it's just like that shot, if he can make that shot 37 percent of the time and he's doing better than that this year i just don't really know what he's maybe put like maybe put gobert on him and just sort of like run around and have gobert run around with his arms up in the air and try and scare him or something i don't know what you're supposed to do he's certainly a better offensive player than kobe ever was for me it's's like him versus Jordan now for shooting guards, like just like the highest level of whatever they're capable of. And it's just so tough to compare because of the eras, the three points being worth more than two thing. You know, it wasn't even in Jordan's mindset. Jordan's mindset was just to get to the rim or then pull up and take a jump shot. But if you go back 30 years

and the three-point line was as valuable in 1988 as it is now, the whole way he would have played is different. So it's really hard for me to legislate that. I have a hard time dealing with that. I feel like they are neck and neck, though. And Jordan did it for longer and was able to be in the... He was from basically 30 points to 37 points a game for 10 years. But what Harden is doing is in the conversation.

I never thought we would say that about James Harden. It's hard for me to believe somebody could win the MVP and then take a leap. But that's what we witnessed. Am I correct? It's almost going to be disappointing when they get healthy again. This is boring. Like last night was like, oh, okay. Their solution to this Capella injury is just Harden is going to take 40 shots.

If he has to. Right. See how many. Or whatever. I mean, he's going to score 50 points. I mean, that's the end. I kind of want to watch that every night now. Now that I've seen it once, I'm like, oh, I'll watch that show again.

So the last three and a half seasons, going back the 16, 17, 18 seasons, and then half of this season, he's 39 and 7. 10.5 free throw attempts, 9.6 three-point field goal attempts. So he's almost been 10 and 10 every year. 44, 36, 86. When you're doing that for four years, that's a presidential term. That's like the Kobe 2006 thing. And Kobe got there in 2001. Kobe was really good.

And the stats backed it up. He had some 30-point seasons. But to just do the four years in a row is pretty nuts. And that's pretty rarefied territory for him. You even see like with Westbrook this year, you know, for whatever reason, Westbrook can't really shoot anymore. And his stats drop, but they're the same age.

You know, and Harden's only 29. He was younger than I think everybody realized when he went with OKC. He's got a whole other decade of basketball left. You know, I don't know where it's going. I don't know if he can play better than this, but it'll be interesting to see how long he can sustain the apex

and whether, you know, when you're shooting 11 free throws a game, the contact and all that stuff, at some point he's going to have a dumb injury. He hasn't had that in a while. I was going to say, you look at the underrated thing about him is the durability is like unbelievable.

He's led the league in minutes twice. His games played, he's played, he's missed a couple of games this year. He missed 10 last year, 81, 82, 81, 73, 78, 62 in the lockout year, 82, 76. He just did carrying the load that he carries over the minutes over Mike D'Antoni minutes. Now it's just, he's never hurt. He seems like almost LeBron level indestructible. It's, it's really like, he seems like he's never hurt he seems like almost LeBron level indestructible it's really like he seems like he's in great shape too and I don't I always felt like he was in good shape in the past but I never looked at him and thought like that

guy is at the peak of his powers in physical shape and I don't know what he did in the offseason or what's going on with him but he just seems he doesn't seem tired at the end of games he's also one of the guys that or what's going on with him, but he just seems, he doesn't seem tired at the end of games. He's also one of the guys that you don't, he's one of the see him up close guys where it changes how you think about him.

Because when you see him up close, I sat courtside once at a game, I don't even remember where it was, when Harden, I think it was his first year with the Rockets, when he was just, when people realized, oh, okay. And he had some drive, like watching him up close, that close for the first time, like he's just way more explosive. Like everyone talks about how he can slow down his deceleration,

his craftiness and blah, blah, blah. When that guy gets going, he is like straight up explosive, going from ground to rim. When he needs to be, when he needs to like close that space fast, seeing it up close in person, he has like a little freight train kind of explosiveness to him he's just he's a monster he's an absolute monster yeah i agree with you he's you know when i did the trade value i added that michelin rating where it's like one two or three stars for how you have to whether it's worth

it to go see this person in person i put two for him in the last column because of the, it was more of a penalty for him because I hate the flailing into the defender so much. It's so frustrating in person. But you're right. He should be a three-star guy because the explosiveness, but also the footwork in person really stands out even more. To watch somebody be able to kind of move like a magician five feet backwards to the left. It's like, how did he do that? You spend a lot of time like in disbelief. I should mention

on YouTube, there's like a 30 minute clip of us talking about the possibility of a hardened trade before it happened. And then 27 minutes right after it happened, where we were just appalled and in disbelief. So history will remember us up finally, Zach Lowe. Let's take a break. We're going to talk about the LNBA teams. Hey, turn your dream into a reality with Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easier than ever to launch a passion project. Whether you're looking to start a new business, showcase your work, publish content, sell products, and more. Squarespace is the tool for you with beautiful templates created by world class designers and the ability to customize just about anything. With a few clicks, you can easily

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Offer code BS. And since we're here, if you love True Detective, we are blowing out our coverage of it. You can watch The Flat Circle, which is Jason Concepcion and Chris Ryan on all of our YouTube, Twitter, everywhere you'd watch a Ringer video, it's on there. And we also run that on the Recapables feed, which has been blown back to life as we are ready for True Detective, Game of Thrones, Big Little Lies, and a whole bunch of things going forward. Also, Bachelor part, if you're a Bachelor fan,

Bad Season. Bad Season so far. I'm down on this Bachelor season. Julia Lipman is picking it apart. It's like the thunder defense. You can hear it every week with her cast of crazies. Right after the show ends on ABC, bachelor party goes up.

And you can hear that as well on The Ringer podcast network. All right, back to Zach. So we're doing mid-season all-NBA checkpoint. There's one other thing I want to talk about before we go after this, which is how do we get to 12 All-Stars in the East? I think it's like a real conversation. Have you tried to get to 12? Oh, yes.

It's not easy. Like Pascal Siakam is way more involved than I thought he was going to be in my thought process. If you're all up in Pascal Siakam, then it's not that hard. Guess who else was on my list? D'Angelo Russell. I know. It's getting a little scary.

What the hell? He's turned. I don't know if he's turned the corner, but he's turned a corner. There's two spots that are going to shock people. And the people available for those spots range from D'Angelo Russell, Vucevic, Pascal Siakam. Vuce is a lock. You think he's in? All right.

Do we think Siakam's in? No. I mean, I'm not saying, not a lock. He's on my to be considered for one of the last one and a half spots. All right. So those one and a half spots are Russell, Siakam, J.J. Redick, John Collins, who's only played like 27 games on a terrible team. I'm just throwing out dudes.

Sabonis, Marcus Morris. I'm telling you, it gets thin really fast. Well, a lot of it comes down to, I don't want to get distracted. Yeah, well, let's go on. First team. Yeah. go on beer first team yeah are we obeying the rules that we want somebody who at least conceivably is a center or would be a five if I'm trying to win a basketball game you have to okay they make you list a true center on all NBA which they just keep mixing this up an all-star now it's just

front court everyone's front court but in all NBA to have a center. So through 41 games, to me, no brainer, it's Jokic as the center. Is there any argument against Jokic? Yeah, AD. Oh, you want to put him at center? He's a center. Yeah, that screws me up. Are you sure he's a center? You could argue lately that with Randall starting, that Randall will guard some centers. But even then, I think that was part of the idea when they signed Randall. But even last night, for instance, they wanted AD on the center all the time

and Randall guarding fours, which Randall's not good at. But they want AD on the center because they need his rim protections. To me, the debate is over. Cousins is gone. He's a center. He's got to be center but yeah you'll get your davis pick your take pick him oh man is it bad if i go with yokich no okay i went i went with ad but um go with you okay well you know i'm the kind of guy that likes to reward winning, Zach Lowe. I'm a wins and losses kind of guy. I am a my teammates love playing with me kind of guy. I'm a parts are better, are not as good as the hole kind of guy,

whatever that is. I always screw that up. What is it? The sum of the parts are better than the hole? That's it. Sum of the parts are better than the hole. I'm a sum of the parts guy, Zach. That's who I am.

I like Jokic. The LeBron level passive aggressive shots being thrown at Anthony Davis right now. Well, you know what? Fit in, fit out. Stop trying to fit out. I didn't go to the game last night, the Clipper game, because I had a whole bunch of stuff going on at my house because it was pouring rain and apparently my house wasn't prepared for two inches of rain.

Whoa, whoa. That doesn't sound good. But Mike Tullin, who shares the Clipper tickets with me, went and he was like, God, the brow. He was unbelievable. And I was like, the Pelicans aren't bad, right? He's like, no, the Pelicans are good. Drew Holiday is good.

Julius Randle is good. They don't have bad players. I don't know what. So basically the same thing that I've been saying. It's not a bad team is my point. Peyton just got back. Miritich has missed a bunch of games. And you just named three guys.

The rest of the guys are not so good. Like, Etuan Moore had like a month where he was like, oh, Etuan Moore is good. I don't know where he went, but he's gone. He's not playing with Marco Yarge and washed up Sam Cassell and whoever the hell else was on the 06 Timberwolves. I'm just saying.

No, those two weren't on. It was Marco Yardge. Pelicans 4-15 or 5-15 is not awesome. Yeah, I agree with you. So. I remember to Yokech.

But see, I think this is a very interesting thing related to All-Star. And we're not going to do All-Star, but I think, you know, I thought more than usual this year about, oh, this team should get this many or this team doesn't deserve this many. And then you look at, like, there are some teams,

like the Spurs are winning with depth. The Clippers are winning with depth. Like the Spurs bench is awesome. And they've been destroyed with Aldridge and DeRozan on the floor. And I don't know what that means. Or last time I checked, they were DeRozan on the floor. And I don't know what that means. Or last time I checked, they were negative with those two guys on the floor. I don't know what that means for their all-star cases, but there are some teams where

5-15 is winning a lot of games. And I don't know what that does to the all-star case of 1-2, but it's interesting to think about. And conversely, there's the Pelicans who, like, 1-2 or whatever winning they're doing is all because of Davis and Holiday basically. And the Celtics are not winning with their depth.

No, no. It's kind of thought the depth would be an advantage, but not really. All right, so you have Davis, I have Jokic. Yes. Who do you have for your two forwards out of curiosity? Giannis and KD. Giannis and KD?

Yeah. All right, so I have... I should stress, we're at the halfway point. This is tentative. I have not put the level of thought into this that I will when I do the ballot for real.

But the last forward spot came down to... I mean, you could do KD, Kawhi, Paul George, LeBron, who's missed a bunch of games now. I think you got, at this point, he's missed X percent of the season.

So I just want KD's, Kawhi's missed 10 games, I think. So I just want sort of KD placeholder for now. Wow. What'd you do? I think Giannis is the only one that is in an indelible Sharpie. Yeah, agreed. I put Paul George in the other spot. Can you imagine being Paul George?

Paul George is averaging 27 points a game. Paul George is fucking awesome this year. I can't believe how good he is. And I really enjoy watching him. I can believe how good he is. He's averaging 27 a game, all defense level. And you're like, okay, so if KD, Kawhi, Giannis, and LeBron are all healthy and awesome, there's just no way I can be anything

but a third team All-NBA player. That just sucks to be Paul George. He might be on the third team. Right now, I have him on the third team, tentatively, because those guys are just... I just named four of the top seven players in the NBA. What are you supposed to do? I think Paul George, as a two-way

player, has just been more consistent. And I've watched my fair share of Golden State games. And usually I put, you almost have to get knocked out of your spot for me with all NBA. But that OKC team is so weird. And it's a good kind of weird. It's not a bad weird. It's a good weird.

But like you, I watched that Spurs game on Thursday night, which was epic. And it's this team that really fights and plays their asses off. And it comes from Westbrook and George and Adam specifically. Those guys just really try hard. And there was a play near the end when they needed to get a steal, basically. And it reminded me of Kawhi and his prime where Bellinelli had him. Paul George is just like, I'm going to take the ball now. He just like took it

and created a fast break out of it. But athletically, it just seems like he is 100,000% back from that terrible leg injury. And that leg injury now is kind of a what if for me this decade because I didn't think Paul George was ever going to be this good. I knew he was good.

I thought he was like kind of a 1B as a star. I didn't know if he was a 1A. But now I wonder if he doesn't have that leg injury, what does his decade look like? Could this have happened three years ago for him? Interesting. I don't know. Interesting.

He sort of is still a 1b he's like a 1ab like he'll never handle the we think of 1a as the guy who like handles the ball the most yeah like that's the alpha dog the guy who has the ball the most is the alpha dog and that's never going to be him no matter what team he's like he's not cast for that role when he was that in indiana there was a pretty hard ceiling on that team. But he's like the A plus version of the 1B. It's like he's a different, he's just a different, he's like a different thing. Well, he reminds me, Paul Pierce, I feel like was like that. Yeah, it's a good one.

And I think he's, this season is having a better year than Paul Pierce ever had. Well, that's what makes KD's decision this summer so so fascinating. KD, for much of his career, has almost been the absolute apex of that. He's never been on a team, other than maybe before Russ became Russ, where he had the ball the most. Now, in crunch time, they would just give him the ball and get out of the way in early Oklahoma City years, most Oklahoma City years. But he's never been the guy who runs the most pick and rolls,

who controls the offense. He's always sort of been a mix of both of those things. And that's what, you know, there's sort of a curiosity of like, well, what does he look like if you just give him a bronze roll? Like, would he put up 33-8-8, and how good would that team be, and what would it look like?

And I think that's just an interesting thought exercise. That's all. So, I do think in 14 when he won the MVP, we were like 90% there at that. I'm looking at the stats now. Yeah, that's the one i do think in 14 when he won the mvp we were like 90 there at that i'm looking yeah that's the one that's the slim reaper year where he just had a string of like 30 point games in a row and was just like oh my god westbrook was hurt yeah he put up 32 7 7 plus rebounds five and a half assists that was the only time he's ever taken more than 20 shots all right one of two times. 20.8 shots

a game. 9.9 free throw attempts. You know I love free throw attempts, Zach. I like to fast forward through free throw attempts. Well, you know I like them on the basketball reference. I like bold. Unlike you, I like the bold. And I like free throw attempts. So I have Paul George just because of the

two-way stuff. I don't mind it. Like you said, Giannis is in Sharpie. Everything else is sort of TBD on that one. Well, I think these other two guys are in Sharpie for the guards, Harden and Curry. Well, obviously, yeah. That's done. I mean, that's decided already. Yeah.

To Harden having his greatest year and Curry 96% of his greatest year. With the chance of he might have some 12-game run coming up where he just scores 40 points a game and hits 10 threes a game or something. There's a chance that he might end up having his career year. He's at least circling it. I want to see them come out tonight, by the way, and really try to beat Denver. That's a fun game.

I want to see them. I hope they're up for this game. Maybe they just won't get up for any game in the regular season anymore, but I want to see them come out. Like, they kind of snuck... Did you see that Dallas game? They kind of, like, snuck that one out

and screwed around with it and Steph bailed them out. I want to see them come out. Like, I just hope... I would like to see 10 times a year say, Oh, this team thinks they're the best team in the West? This team thinks they're number one? Oh, we're in Denver.

Oh, the altitude. Oh, this and that. Let's come out and kick their ass. I'm not saying I'm rooting for them I love Denver you know nobody loves Jokic more than me I just

but I'd like to see the Warriors come out with like a little bit of a like fire tonight like let's just remind everyone that's what I want to see

I don't think I'm going to see it but that's what I want to see it would have been a fun game for Boogie Cousins to be in and I know we're getting close and I gotta say I'm surprised I thought it was going to be a while before we saw him Cousins to be in. And I know we're getting close. And I got to say, I'm surprised. I thought it was going to be a while before we saw him.

I was not a believer in the big man coming back. And I'd heard some buzz that actually he wasn't going to be ready when they thought he was going to be ready. But then all of a sudden he was practicing and they feel pretty good about it. He's coming back, I think, next week. But this one, Jokic, just not ideal. Not an ideal matchup for them.

I know they can try to get him on the other side, but I'm with you. This is a game that on paper, if both teams are trying, should be like a 155 to 150 slugfest. Hopefully we'll get there. Second team. So you have Jokic here, second team. I have Davis.

Well, I think the interesting question is, if you put Davis on first team or whatever, I think Jokic-Embiid is an interesting debate. I would right now pencil Jokic over Embiid. But I think that's an interesting debate. I would too. And I had Embiid as an MVP candidate. I just don't love the way that team's been playing.

I think Embiid is not, if you're going to put Jokic over Embiid, part of the reason is Embiid is not as good an offensive player as maybe the eye test suggests in some ways or as people think he is. Like he's below 30% from three. I think he's 49% overall. His assist to turnover issue after an interest,

which was his big sort of blind spot blind spot last year or whatever it started off strong is now down to one to one again like he's just like yokich what yokich is doing offensively i just can't be stressed it's the best passing season by a big man he's averaging more assists than lebron yeah it's the best probably ever it's absolutely insane a big man has bill walton didn't do this sabonis in the the NBA at least didn't do this. I mean, there's just never been a big man. Like, KG, who was sort of like not even a—he was like more of a KG and less of a traditional big man. Like, he never passed. Like, no one did this ever.

He's averaging seven and a half assists a game. It's ridiculous. With the Embiid, I like that he's at 10 free throws a game. Yeah. He brought that up. He's a very good offensive player. I just think Jokic is a— Oh, I think it's— —other very good offensive player. I just think Jokic is a worldly offensive player. Yeah, I don't...

Even though Embiid's getting the... You know, he's 27 and 13, but I don't like that he's not even shooting 50%. How's that possible? Well, if you ask him, he might tell you about how he has to be a floor spacer. He doesn't like to do that. He's got to take some threes

blah blah who are your guards second team guards I have well let's do the forwards okay so Durant

and then I got Karai so you have LeBron on the third team yeah LeBron's missed three weeks like if this is just mid-season only and I can only judge off what I've seen and using all the barometers LeBron on the third team. Yeah, LeBron's missed three weeks. If this is just midseason only,

and I can only judge off what I've seen in using all the barometers and team success and all that stuff, I don't see how LeBron's on one of the first two teams, which is now opening the door for LeBron not to be first team or second. It's opening the door. Okay, okay. I thought you were going to go a step further

and say not make an all-NBA team. I have LeBron. He might not make one of the top two. I have Paul George on the third team. Kawhi's missed 10 games too, by the way. LeBron hasn't missed that much more time than Kawhi. It just feels like he has because Kawhi's been here and there, back-to-back here, back-to-back there.

I love Paul George. Like, he's, Kawhi, I just don't think he's, like, at some point when I'm making the all-NBA decisions, just like, do I feel silly writing LeBron James under third team? He's like, yeah, I feel silly. It's silly. It's silliness. So I can't, I just, you know, if he misses 10 more games, we'll talk. But right now, he's on my second team. He's like, yeah, I feel silly. It's silly. It's silliness. So I can't, I just, you know,

if he misses 10 more games, we'll talk. But right now, he's on my second team. He's LeBron James. That's all. I don't need any more defense than that. Well, he's played, so he's played 34 games. Yeah, there's a case for it. I just like how the other guys have played more.

Like I said, it's all pencil right now. Yeah. So guards, I had a lot of trouble. Really? Yeah. Who'd you have? I didn't have trouble until I got the third team, and then it becomes a complete mess.

I have Kyrie and Lillard. I did too, and I didn't know if I was being a homer, putting Kyrie on the second team. Kyrie's been outstanding. We talked about him earlier, but he's been outstanding. I know the stats are there. Yeah. I just, the leadership slash team success thing,

but his team's, Kemba, I guess, had a case, but his team's just not playing well. It's really tough for me to, you're a second team all NBA, your team's going to go 34 and 48, and you're their best players. And Kemba, since he turned his ankle five, six weeks ago, whenever it was, he just hasn't been the same player. So third team, is Towns forward or center? Towns, I think you have to call a center.

Okay, I agree. So Embiid as my third team center, which you have as well. I have LeBron as one of my third team center. Yeah. Which you have as well. I have LeBron as one of my third team forwards. I hope you felt good saying that sentence. Well, come back. Fix your groin. Fix your groin, old man. Oh, man.

And then, oh, God. Am I going to really do this? Yes, you are. I know it. I can feel it. You're going to to really do this? Yes, you are. I know it. I can feel it. You're going to let me do this? Yep. What am I going to do?

I don't know. Marcus Morris? As my third-team all-NBA? Yeah, forward. I don't know. I'm bracing for something. Am I allowed to pick Luka for third-team all-NBA? Absolutely.

He's a candidate. Yeah. I just don't know. He's one where if I, like, it almost, like, can I move him to guard? Do I have to put him in the front court? He's functionally a point guard. I wonder how they're going to classify him positionally.

Simmons, too. Do you think Luka's been one of the 15 best players in the league? No. No. But it's not,he's in the conversation because when you get down to—so I have my forwards. By the way, the guy I had in there is Griffin. Yeah, I have Blake. Blake is my other forward. I have Paul George.

So my third team, forwards and center, are Paul George, Blake, and Embiid. And for me, Luka entered into the guard discussion because I'm under the assumption that if I cajole the league enough, they will let people play around with him positionally. Because they should. If Simmons can be a call to guard, then so should Luka Doncic and so should LeBron. So who'd you have for your two third-team guards?

Well, we haven't said that yet, and I just have a bunch of— I have two names in parentheses, and then I just have a bunch of, like, 17 names next to them because I just don't know and can't make a decision right now. Well, if Luka is eligible at guard, that makes things a lot easier for me. It doesn't necessarily make things easier for me, but he gets in the—like, I don't think he's in the conversation for forward. I think Blake has been demonstrably better. But Blake had a, I've been working on my trade value list for this next month.

Blake made a dramatic return. I mean, as crazy as this sounds, he's having the best season of his career statistically. I love that he's so mad too. And I mean that genuinely. I love that he's owning it. He's not trying to pretend

like he's bigger than that. Like it doesn't mean anything to him. He's being a real person with regard to the Clippers trade. And I think like we tend to lionize guys who act like they're above it all. And really maybe they are above it all. Like Michael was above it all. But I like when guys are real people. And Blake is like, Blake's mad.

His feelings are hurt. He's mad. He's not going to go make a nice to Steve Ballmer and this and that. Like he's mad. I like it. I like that he's owning it. Yeah, it's even beyond a feeling's been hurt. They just flat out lied to him.

And whether that was a smart trade or not is kind of to the side for a second. They did this huge selling pitch that they wanted him to be a clipper for life and got him to buy into it and then really coldly traded him. I think that was one of the coldest NBA trades ever. See, that doesn't bother me because that's just business. And even like the retired jersey thing is dumb. They shouldn't have done that. But like what they really – all they really need to do is give them the five-year max.

And I think they didn't need the pomp and circumstance of it. I think he would have signed it and then they could have just done the same trade without the silliness. So it didn't bother you that you had – they had all these people pitching him, Clipper for life. Here's where your jersey is going to be, blah, blah, blah. You're a guy. And then like seven months later traded him? I don't think they had to do that. But I just think like if you want to re-sign the guy, you're going to say things to him and probably part of you means it and part of you doesn't.

They went over the top. I don't think they had to do that. They had the hammer, which was a fifth year at whatever percent of the cap. I don't remember. I think 30% of the cap. They had the hammer. They didn't need to go crazy with it. But that's business. That's going to happen all the time in the NBA. My only

point is I kind of like that he's wearing his emotions on his sleeve a little bit. I like it too and it's actually brought out a level of basketball that I wasn't sure still existed inside him. Yeah, so he's my forward along with PG and then the guards are a

total mess. You could make an argument for 12 different guys. Am I wrong to think DeRozan's in here? Yeah, he's on my to be considered list. I don't think he should make it, but he's on the list. I had a DeRozan-Kemba combo,

but didn't know that Luka was a possibility. And by the way, is Bradley Beals a guard or a forward? Did we decide that? He's a guard, and he is one of the two names in parentheses that right now

I would... Whatever is lighter than pencil, like chalk. I guess chalk is probably worse than pencil. Whatever. I have Beal in parentheses as one of the two guards.

Beal's like basically 30 a game now for three weeks. And one of the things I like about him is he will go toe-to-toe with whoever the other team's superstar is if it's the right kind of game.

Yeah, he loves it. Beal is for real. Beal is legit. He's untradeable. They'd be nuts to consider trading. They're not going to trade. They just have to figure out what the hell to do with our man John Wall. So, two questions for you. Can I ask you two questions? Yeah. Two sort of

lightning rod names here. Yeah. Is Russell Westbrook going to average a triple-double and not make an all-NBA team? With those shooting percentages, it's very possible. I think so, too.

He's not the other name in parentheses for me. He's not Russell Westbrook. I do think, though, out of all the guys we were talking about, he has the best chance to go on a hot streak

and by the end of the year will be second or third team. Agreed. Because, you know, I forget who I was talking about this with. It wasn't on a podcast. Watching that Thursday night game, which I watched closely because I really wanted to try to get a feel

for what the hell was going on with OKC. Westbrook's playing really hard and athletically he seems like the. Westbrook's playing really hard and athletically, he seems like the same Westbrook to me. It's just like he's lost the ability to shoot consistently, but I don't feel like he's slipped physically or athletically at all.

And if anything, defensively, it seems like he's trying harder than he ever has and he's getting more steals and all that stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if his offense came around,

but I love this pass first version of him. and all that stuff. And I wouldn't be surprised if his offense came around. But I love this pass-first version of him. When he's driving to the – he still has the athleticism to get by whoever he wants. And then he is actually looking for his teammates now. And I like watching him. I like watching this version of him. He just can't shoot. So I thought a lot about him for all-star purposes

because by the numbers other than the triple double thing which like i just can't i can't overstate how little i care about the triple double thing i just don't care well we've both you and i are in agreement i don't care um by every other number but that he is a borderline all-star case and i but you just it's it's funny you just feel him in a way that you don't feel mike conley and drew holiday and demar de rosen on every single possession just like you just he is just a force that you have to deal with every single time the thunder have the ball and in a way that is a little bit scary like I think coaches worry about him more than they do about all these other guards that are candidates for that spot but then you're like well um that also translates into like five terrible shots every game that result in zero

points or fast breaks that are away or whatever so it's like so he's doing so the three-pointer at the worst the three-pointer at the worst possible time in the game when you have momentum. But I just like, there are four-minute spans where like, oh, Drew Holiday was on the floor. That was cool. I didn't really notice that. Like with Russ, it's like you got to deal with him every single time. And it's scary.

Like I think he's going to make the all-star team anyway. The coaches will name him. But if you're going 12 deep in the West, it's actually kind of a shaky case, but I'm leaning towards that he should be on it. I forgot to ask you my other question. Can I ask you my other question? I'm pro Westbrook this year.

How about that? I think he's actually weirdly underrated now, except for the fact that he can't hit the side of a barn. Can I ask you my other question? Yeah. What are we to do with this Jimmy Butler season? It's not going to deserve any awards from Bill Simmons. I'll tell you that much.

They're awards, but they don't unfortunately have them on the ballot that I would like to give for it. I, um, so, so, um, by the, by some things he should be – like he's in the East now. As you said, when you're getting down to the last two all-star spots in the East, it's not like a huge bar. Like for me personally, I think if you – I just – I can't get – I think if you sabotage your team or – I shouldn't say it. If you participate in the sabotaging of your team, he was

not the sole saboteur in Minnesota, but if you participate in it and then get traded, and there's immediately drama at your next team, I just think you're kind of disqualified from All-Star for that year. I think you're out. That's it. You're out for a year. Come back next year and we'll talk about it.

You're preaching in the choir, Zach. Is that fair? I was going to say, am I being unfair? No. Like he's just, he's not even, like his name is crossed off for me. Also, I look at it, you know, like in the beginning of Good Will Hunting when he gets arrested for the fight

and he goes in front of the judge and the judge is just listing all of his violations over the years. To me, it's worse that Jimmy Butler has had this happen two other times in his career. Now it's happened two times this season, but it's the repeated kind of chemistry issues that he's had now,

where over and over again, he's been mad or this has happened or he's handled this wrong or that wrong and stuff has come out. And it just doesn't seem like he has been able to successfully indoctrinate himself within a basketball team. You know what? You know what?

You know, you mentioned the what if of Paul George's leg injury. Yeah. It's another what if. We're talking about Jimmy Butler's career. What if? What if the Bulls had had a leadership council when Jimmy was there? Do you think it would have changed his career? If he had been maybe put on the leadership council at a young age, do you think he maybe would behave differently, a little more maturity? It's a real missed

opportunity. I think it would have played out like the government shutdown right now, where the Bulls would have just not played. The ushers in the stadium wouldn't have been paid. It just would have been a complete disaster. Okay, so you're with me. I just think you kind of punt All-Star for a year like that. You just don't get to be on it. It's funny. I was thinking about this

with the Butler thing. We've had these trades over the last four or five years that felt like these big, huge, awesome trades. The one that we thought was the most lopsided turned out to be one of the most fair, awesome trades of the past 30 years. Paul George for Oladipo and Sabonis. Really one of the hall of fame trades. Unbelievable trade. Yeah. Awesome trade. Both of those guys are on my trade value list. I think Paul George is going to be in the top 10 by the time I do this next one. Oladipo is

a franchise guy. That trade just couldn't have worked out any better. Then you have these other trades that we thought were going to be these mammoth franchise changing trades. Butler and going to Minnesota. Everything the Bulls got back. I like Lori Markkinen,

but that's certainly everything the Bulls got back I like Laurie Markkinen but you know that's certainly we're not going to be telling our grandkids about that trade and what was the there was one other one that was like that

what was the other big oh the Kyrie trade where if Kyrie goes to the Knicks in six months and then all we really have to show for that trade is Colin Sexton and nobody made the finals. And it's just bizarre, right? Well, the Dwight trade is the ultimate example of like somehow

it was a four-team trade that all four teams lost. I think Orlando kind of won it. I'm giving Orlando, I'm giving Rob Hennigan his only W of the entire Orlando Magic run for him. I think he won it, right? What did they get? Vucevic, Afalo? Well, at least he got Vuce. Vuce might make the All-Star team. Yeah, Vuce is good.

And the other one that's fun for me, everybody's going to groan, but the Harden trade. It is kind of cool that Adams turned out to be good. He's really good. That trade really is still one of the worst trades of all time. But at least Adams is a borderline all-star. And if he's your third best player, you actually have a chance to win the title. So that wasn't bad.

But it was bad. Between that and the Goodwill hunting reference, you're on a roll right now. I have one more thing for you. It's going to make you really happy. Okay. I was really mean to the Nets earlier this year because they kept blowing games near the end of the game.

By the way, they better hope they don't look back on some of those games. They didn't just blow games. I mean, those were two or three of the absolute worst. Well, I think there was more like seven. Well, whatever. But there were two or three like in New Orleans and the Jimmy Butler buzzer. There were ones where like you had to try hard to blow those games. And I was mean about, you know, Sean Marks gets a lot of love.

And I do think we're in a world now where a lot of the people that write about cover basketball talk about it. Like, they know some of these people. The Nets had a lot of friends in the media, shall we say. But you look at the stuff that they've done, the Alan Crabb thing was reprehensible and was dumb at the time. And I didn't understand it because they were basically throwing Portland this $50 million luxury tax balloon. But other than that, like the Russell trade, that's about as good as you're going to do with a trade like that. Right? Some of the picks that they made that weren't even in the lottery turned out to be really good trades.

They plucked Dinwiddie, who they didn't even draft. The Pistons had him. I did that draft. That was one of my favorite second round picks because he was coming off a knee injury. He would have been a lottery pick. But they've done a nice job. And then this, I still don't understand

how they got this Kurooks, whatever the hell his name is. I love that guy. What's the correct pronunciation, Zach? I believe it's Kuroots. Kuroots. But this was somebody that would have been a lottery pick. Ended up going to Barcelona, signed with the B team instead of the A team. They buried him. And this was somebody that would have been a lottery pick, ended up going to Barcelona,

signed with the B team instead of the A team. They buried him, and now the Nets kind of stole him. But Jared Allen, it is kind of a success story. I have to apologize. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I think they did a nice job. The question before the season,

there was no question Dinwiddie. Joe Harris, great pick. Joe Harris, another good one. Levert was clearly going to be a good player if he stays healthy, which I guess it still has to be an if. Allen was clearly after last year going to be a good player. The question going into the season was, do they get through this season and feel good about point guard?

And if they do, because I agree with you, the Crabb thing is a clear like black mark disaster. They shouldn't have done it. Can you imagine right now if they had this team plus enough cap space to be a predator at the trade deadline and try to get another pick? I mean, that's the forfeited opportunity. Even the Carroll trade turned out pretty okay for them. They got a pick.

It's not going to be a good pick. But the question before the season was if they get through this season, if they feel bad about point guard, then I still think they're pretty close to square one. And they're going to get through this season, I think, feeling pretty good about point guard and with a fascinating

negotiation with D'Angelo Russell because they've already assigned Dinwiddie, obviously, who's, I think, starter caliber good. Not top 10 starter, but starter caliber good. Russell's a tough one. He might be somebody who should be paid by the year. Yeah. It's, it's going to be a really interesting negotiation because he's, like I said, he's turned a corner. I don't think he's

turned the corner. Um, he, he, he is make, he makes a lot of difficult shots and you just wonder, is there a slump coming defensively? He's still kind of a train wreck. Um, but, but he's, he's made a lot of progress enough that you could feel good about him at the right salary. And yeah, I think they've done, other than Crabb, I think they've done an outstanding job. Let's end with this.

What franchise out of the 30 do you feel the worst for, for their fans? So we can't say the Sonics because they're not one of the 30, but the answer't say the Sonics because they're not one of the 30, but the answer would be the Sonics.

That's going to change I think in four years they have a team. Okay, the worst. Who do you feel the worst for? What fan base? You can't say Cleveland because they got one.

No, they won a title. They got one. Five-year grace period. And they're getting Zion because they have to win the lottery every couple years by the rule of the week. I am going to say, boy, I'm not going to make any friends. Do it. Let's not make friends.

I think Charlotte. Charlotte. With Memphis maybe knocking on the door if the next 12 months goes in a bad direction. Yeah, but Memphis at least has Jared Jackson. That's true. I forgot about that. I mean, Charlotte and Detroit are up there. You would tip – well, no, the Knicks have Porzingis and some hope.

I mean, the Wizards have a couple good players. I mean, who else is a candidate? What's your answer? Candidates would be – I think Charlotte is my answer. I think in the West, you could make a case that everybody's in okay shape. Even like Sacramento,

who's been the league punching bag really since 2004. But that is one of the feel-good situations we have. So it's got to be East Conference. Charlotte was on my list. I think Orlando's on the list. I think Detroit's on the list I think Detroit's on the list Orlando's up there and weirdly the Wizards

those would be my four I think the Wizards fans are just like fatigued it's just like a lot of it's like all this drama to not be very good. It's just like even I'm tired of it. The thing with The Wiz that I think is frustrating for their fans

is they just over and over again end up in these salary situations where it's like four years from now, we're free. So now they're in it again. It's like, wow, four years from now, John Wall's contract expires. Didn't we just go through this with Gilbert Arenas and Antoine Jameson? And there's just a recurring theme with them. So I don't know.

I think you're right on Charlotte, though, because Kemba's probably going to leave. Or even worse, he stays but gets a max, even though he's not a top, I don't know. We have no proof he could be the best guy in even a playoff team. And then other than that, it's just salary cap crap

and an owner that doesn't really seem like he has his eye on the ball. Kemba is exciting. I like Bridges. Monk has some potential, although he just can never escape the doghouse for more than three or four games at a time. I just think Detroit, it's just so bad that Stanley Johnson has busted out. Kennard was a DNP for a while. Like, they've just missed on all those wings. Yeah, a lot of lottery picks.

And nobody wants Reggie Jackson. And it's just like, you got Blake, Andres, whatever, and just all those supplementary pieces. Like, Bruce Brown is starting because the other guys you picked in the lottery just haven't worked out to that degree. Plus, that was another team that turned down the Boston Justice Winslow trade offer. I don't even think they considered it. You know who's getting really good, by the way?

Justice Winslow. That's right. It all circles around. All right, Zach Lowe, you going to All-Star? I am, for the first time in my NBA Lowe, you going to All-Star? I am for the first time in my NBA writing career not going to All-Star. Wow. Remember when we used to send you there at Grantland to meet sources? It's great.

Network. Now you're networked out. You have enough sources. Well, it's just, it's sort of like a one-time, it's a one-time blip where for some personal reasons I'm going to do it um but it's also the trade deadline become being before all-star has really changed the networking aspect of it where like a lot of the gms won't come like a lot like many fewer front office people come because there's no business to be done or minimal business to be done it's just not it's not quite

the same from that perspective anymore yeah do you Do you think by the time this podcast goes up, there's going to have been a trade with Kemba Walker or something weird, Dennis Smith Jr., something? I hope not. I really hope not. I hate when that happens. Today is January 15th, which means that every free agent signed this summer

is now trade eligible other than the ones that have the weird one-year veto rights. You know what I call that, Zach? Trade machine Christmas. There you go. The trade machine, they should have like a switch where you can just turn everything off and just make whatever trades you want

without those stupid restrictions. Agreed. Because I like to look in the future and know what my team can do ahead of time. Do the Lakers have the same team three weeks from now? I will say no, but I don't know that it's going to be a major move. I think they're going to do something.

If I was a GM, I would be trying to steal Josh Hart from them. I want to see him on a different team. I'm going to leave you with that thought. You take that to your sleep tonight. Zach Lowe, read you on ESPN.com, listen to you on the Low Post podcast, and the best pronunciation of Croatian last names ever in the history of NBA media.

Congratulations on that. That's a big honor. Thank you very much, sir. All right. Thanks, buddy. All right. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS.

Thanks to the New York Times crossword. If you're looking for a smart way to unwind, play the New York Times mini crossword. A fun, relaxing way to stay sharp. Enjoy a quick battle of wits with yourself, or challenge a friend. In about two minutes, you'll experience

the satisfaction of solving the mini puzzles. Wordplay every day. Download the New York Times crossword app at newyorktimes.com slash mini. And don't forget about

the rewatchables this week. Old school. We banged it out. Coming back on Thursday, we're going to do football picks and talk to somebody I've always wanted to have on this podcast. He's in the pop culture circles. I'll leave you with that.

Until then. I want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside, on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.