The Bill Simmons Podcast - Heat 20-Year Anniversary Mega-Pod w/ Chris Ryan

Episode Date: December 22, 2015

20 years ago this month, one of the great action movies of all-time was released. What were the 10 most important lessons from Heat? Was DeNiro vs. Pacino worth the hype? Was this peak Michael Mann? Was this one of the great ensemble casts ever? Has there ever been a longer or better action scene than the bank heist? What was Pacino's best line? Who won this movie between Pacino and DeNiro? If you ever wanted to hear two dudes do an hour-long deep-dive on Heat, this is the pod for you... THIS PODCAST IS WORTH THE RISK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit simplisafebill.com and get an exclusive offer for 10% off. Finally, a home security system you can trust. Again, simplisafeb Yeah. Yeah. Can you picture us rolling? Can you see me all? It's the 20th anniversary of one of my favorite movies of all time. It's called Heat. It stars Robert De Niro and Al Pacino and about 25 other people that we know and love.

It's directed by Michael Mann. I think it's his peak movie. Chris Ryan is here. We've had many arguments about who liked this movie more, me or Chris Ryan. And I think it's a tie. It is my favorite movie. It's your favorite movie ever? It is my favorite movie ever.

I think it's the film I've seen the most over the course of my life. I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping we could record this podcast at BJ's on Alvarado at 2 a.m but we're stuck here you'll have to do how is there stuff happening at figaro and flower but then venice at the same time there's some street name mess ups in the movie great mystery of michael man is the way he collapses los angeles traffic on itself because that's the whole thing with collateral right it's like jam Foxx is like, I can get you from LAX to downtown in seven minutes. It's like, come on. It sounds great. So I watched it again last night.

And we're taping this the week before Christmas, but we're going to run it during the holiday week. Because we're all going away. And what better for the holidays than a little heat podcast? It's a Christmas gift to you, the listener. Yeah. One of my angles on this movie is that 95 was like the last pre-internet year there was the internet but there wasn't like i didn't even have an email address i don't think until 96 some people did but it was like you know the internet for the next couple years

started to change how we regarded movies and how we anticipated them and what we knew about them yeah but even as late as the 90s like Blair Witch Project came out I went to that movie I didn't know if it was real or not on that Friday night now if that came out it would have no chance yeah but when he came out all we knew was there was a trailer and De Niro and Pacino were in it and they were in the same movie and they were in the same scenes and De Niro was the bad guy and Pacino was the cop and everyone was in yeah like just all the way in you couldn't be more in you have to remember where these guys were I mean we look at them sometimes now with a little bit of like right smiling derision or just like sympathy but these

these this was them at the top of their craft still I mean De Niro was coming off of good fellas and Pacino would have this big sort of renaissance in the 90s the scent of a woman and he so these guys are still big draws and consider the top of their craft and they had been in godfather 2 together but were not in any scenes together in godfather 2 and ironically good godfather 2 was like 20 years before this movie now it's 20 years since he but um they were never in the same scene they actually de niroiro played Michael Corleone's dad, but the young version of him. De Niro, did he win Best Supporting Actor? For Godfather 2?

Yeah. I believe so, yeah. Right. And that was part of the appeal, was this is awesome, these guys are in the same movie. De Niro was coming off a really nice stretch where I think Goodfellas was 1990, I want to say, but then he had also had that Bronx tale.

And he was pumping out movies. And he was kind of in his post-prime prime. Cape Fear's around there. Cape Fear, yeah. He was on a good run. And Pacino had basically disappeared for most of the 80s. He came back with See You Love. Scent of a Woman, I think, was 93.

He wins the Oscar finally. And unfortunately, he turned into the son of the woman guy which which carries over into heat but i enjoyed it yeah right so he had done revolution in 85 and then he disappears for four years he was doing stage i think he was having some personal issues yeah he goes sea of love dick tracy godfather 3 frankie and johnny and glenn gary he's incredible son of a Woman Carlito's Way Heat yeah nice run

so before Son of a Woman there was a little like oh Pacino yeah what's going on like De Niro and De Niro versus Pacino I did this on ESPN.com

in 2001 one of my first big male brag I used to call him the Dr. Jack Breakdowns was De Niro versus Pacino this was like the bird versus magic

for actors you it sounds weird to say this now because I don't think anyone argues about actors this way. Well, the track that they followed was very similar. New York. The command of the 70s. Working in gritty crime films in the 70s

with these huge auteurs. A lot of New York movies. Yeah, and they were the place where the critical acclaim for the actor was actually met by some box office appeal. They weren't like, oh, actors love these guys, or only critics and fanboys love these guys. These were huge movie stars. And both Italian.

Yeah. The Godfather thing obviously tied them together. Combined, they probably made nine or ten movies set in New York. Yeah, yeah. And a little bit mythical off the screen. Yeah, method actors. Method actors, weird. Guys who little bit mythical off the screen. Yeah, method actors. Method actors, weird. Guys who really put themselves into their roles.

Yeah, nobody could totally get a handle on them. And it really looked like De Niro had won the rivalry and then The Scent of a Woman, which was a big commercial movie, but also big for Pacino. It was kind of like he laid the smack down. Yeah, that was the Rain Man move. He did a movie.

He was his Oscar B and it worked. He's great in that movie. It's kind of like he laid the smack down. Yeah, that was the Rain Man move. He did a movie, like he did, it was his Oscar bait and it worked. He's great in that movie. It's a ridiculous movie. I don't totally understand Scent of a Woman. Like when it's on cable it's like, wow, how did this movie get made? It basically comes down to this huge showdown of somebody might have not told the

truth about some statue that had been defaced and it's like a whole court. It's ridiculous. Yeah. But he's great in it. He's amazing. You know, it's like a whole court it's ridiculous yeah but he's great in it he's amazing you know it's also worth thinking about 95 in movies great thinking about how um especially for like crime movies like this you're coming out of a time period where like this is right when quentin starts to hit so it's reservoir dogs is i think 92 and um uh 94 yeah and there are all these movies that are ripping reservoir and pulp off, especially in like the tone.

So the tone is really winking. It's very self-aware. It's very like referential to pop culture and stuff like that. So, you know, reservoirs and, uh, you know,

usual suspects that come out that August. Um, and that was incredible, but that was almost, you know, a referendum on crime movies because it's, you know, the guy who you don't expect to be the villain is the villain right so he comes and i remember it was that december um i think i was

on christmas break from college my freshman year and there was this huge blizzard in philly but i remember going all the way to the theater in this blizzard and being like one of 10 people in the theater because it was almost shut down and immediately just it felt like a completely different experience than those other kind of more those more like ironic not even ironic but those more like post-modern films this was like so confident and rooted in a place and i had never been to los angeles and that's the thing about heat is an incredible los angeles very good element and collateral is almost like the la sequel yeah exactly yeah um it's it's. Yeah, exactly. It felt different. It was so long.

You know what I mean? I don't think that there were a lot of three-hour crime movies at that time. Yeah, and I don't know what I would have... There's definitely 25 minutes to cut out of this movie. Yeah, there's entire plot lines you could have gotten rid of. But that, I think, has a little bit to do with the fact that... So, I didn't know this until recently but this was an he was originally a pilot that i never knew that and it's on youtube it's called la takedown and it was uh apparently if

brandon tartikoff and michael mann had agreed on the actor the lead actor they would by the way never heard of again it was some dude adam plank or somebody like that scott plank i think scott plank and if they had just agreed on this, heat never would have happened. It just would have been a TV show like Miami Vice. The other thing with, Michael Mann was also in his prime. Oh, yeah. So he's coming off of Manhunter and Last of the Mohicans.

Yeah, and I idolized that guy. And Miami Vice, yeah. Well, he'd first done the Jericho Mile, which is the greatest TV movie of all time, in my opinion. And for me, a top 12 sports movie. And I don't even think it exists anywhere but it's if you have a chance watch the jericho my outfit somewhere then goes and does vice uh it's unclear how much how involved he was in vice but um i think for the

aesthetics he definitely created the look yeah he did the pilot yeah he hired all the people john johnson yeah he did all that stuff crime story Last of the Mohicans which has not aged great but in the moment was really cool and kind of symbolic of that early 90s

it's pretty romantic but it's you know it's funny it's like it's not unlike The Revenant which we got a chance to check out and it's

you know 20 years ago more than 20 years ago he's doing a lot of the stuff that Interretude winds up doing in The Revenant with these sweeping shots of these like hand to hand combat battles on the frontier. It's pretty incredible. It's actually Jeremiah Johnson, Last of the Mohicans and The Revenant.

And they all kind of speak to whatever the era was. The Last of the Mohicans was basically that kind of post MTV video, lots of driving music and lots of scenes with no dialogue. Yeah. And up until Heat, his like directing is very painterly. It's very, it's not still necessarily, but it's just, it looks like a moving like landscape painting. And then when he goes to Heat, it starts getting a little bit more handheld and a little bit more gritty. And like, it looks a little bit more, it's not quite digital, but it feels like very

like modern. Yeah. I used to go, so like I'm living in Boston for the whole 1990s basically. And that winter of 95 was one of my worst winters I think I've ever had in my life. Like I'm between girlfriends and started dating the wrong girlfriend. I'm at the Herald. I'm getting buried. I'm doing, covering all these high school sports. It's this monster blizzard year.

I think we had like 10 blizzards that year. My car just keeps getting towed over and over again. It was just miserable. The Celtics are awful. All the teams are awful. I think the Patriots, it was, I don't, the Patriots might have come on that year. They might have been the one silver lining,

but just, I love going to the movies. It was like, it was the one thing I had. I was like, I'm going to go to the Somerville Theater. i love going to the movies it was like it was the one thing i had is i'm gonna go to the somerville theater i'm gonna see a movie and i can't so the heat's on the radar it's like oh my god this is the highlight of my life and it was a christmas coming out yeah it was like december 15th it's like this is great i can't wait to see this and it was even better i thought it was gonna be oh i stumbled out of the theater because i think that there's a couple of scenes in there that were unlike anything we had seen before. So that opening heist with the trucks. And it's like the way that they build up to that, where you start and the credits are

rolling and you're like, why is this guy stealing an ambulance? And why is this guy buying detonation equipment from a Home Depot in Arizona? And you meet Wayne Gros at the food stand. He's officially Wayne Gros, right? I don't think he has a real name. No, I don't think. You think he goes into a bar? Yeah, I hope he has a much different name.

And it slowly starts, and Sizemore's like, don't, you know, stop talking, you know. And that first heist with the trucks and with the cops coming, and the chain across the road flattens their tires. And it takes your breath away and that's like a 25 minute sequence. And they did it for real.

It wasn't CGI. It was like they knocked down the truck. I remember the sound and you could see it when the DVDs came out a couple of years later. Like the way they did the sound in the theater, you almost had a heart attack. That's the same thing with the machine guns

and the bank robbery scene. It's just like, it's cacophonous. And it almost feels like how that would sound you almost had a heart attack. That's the same thing with the machine guns and the bank robbery scene. It's just like, it's cacophonous. Like it's, and you can, it almost feels like how that would sound on those big avenues down in Figueroa and Flower and Fifth Street, where it's just like, you could imagine the echo going off like that.

Well, that was, so DVDs kind of came to prominence in the mid nineties. And I remember I had started bartending in 96 and like one of the first things I bought was a nice TV and a DVD player and Heat was in that I can't remember when it came out that was one of the first DVDs

that just, like it was an experience and now it'd be primitive everyone's got awesome setups now but that bank robbery scene all of a sudden you're in your living room you get decent TV the picture's clear it was the first time i ever felt like i i was at the movies at my own house and of course i was stoned out of

my mind so it was like freaking out like eating sour patch kids and just watching because it's also an action scene that's on the level of anything like die hard or lethal weapon but it has none of the fakeness to it where there's like guys saying funny lines to each other or you see it coming from a mile away or it's like well he's got to fight this guy because this is the second command of the bad guys and the second good guy has to fight him it's none of that stuff but it's just as cool or you know it's just as exciting as predator or lethal weapon or diehard well i'll go further what 15 minute action scene is better no it's a 15 minute scene it might even be 20 minutes yeah but like if i'm flipping channels and that's about to come on i'm done

yeah if we're within a half an hour of that scene yeah it's like all right i'm gonna stick around that's the other thing about heat is that it came out at a time and you've talked about this all the time but the way that these movies would insinuate themselves into your life through cable yeah and heat is a movie that has all these huge just these distinct parts that you're like i'm just gonna i'm gonna watch until this happens i'm gonna watch until jeremy piven shows up or i'm gonna watch until henry rollins gets thrown through the door and you can you know you watch it in these 35 minute chunks it almost felt like a long television movie or something like that that you could watch over a couple of nights it had like a second and a third life because dvd helped but then as you said like

the cable channels really took off in the mid 90s and you have a whole package and yeah it's been on once a week for like 20 years yeah and you jump in whenever you want and there were a couple movies like that like the fugitive was like that yeah i think the fugitive had a second life it was so easy to jump in and out of that one but uh the heat you know it's long doesn't help from tv purposes it has not translated to tnt or any of those k it really has to be movie cable because on tnt it's four hours or they'd have to chop 40 minutes out of it or whatever but um what struck what struck me when i watched last night so many people in their prime or their post-prime and not just deniro pacino michael man but like it's sizemore's best movie it's val kilmer at probably his most interesting i don't know yeah it's his best movie but it's still movie star like super attractive kilmer but you can

see his face is aged a little bit he's got a little bit more gruff in his voice got like a little bit more character because he was you know when you see top gun and you see kilmer and cruise i don't know it's it's hard to tell like those guys were like neck and neck in terms of their oh these are the next two big movie stars right and he kind of brought kilmer back yeah and then there was like a couple year window after that where you know i the best analogy was you'd think you would have thought like a johnny depp type of yeah second act for him and he had the michael douglas movie the lion movie that he made dr moreau which was and all of a sudden he made the blind movie the shadow was that the the saint the saint was the thing that he was gonna make a big that was supposed to be his sort of entree into like a

franchise or something you're trolling me right now i know i love the saint the saint should have been a franchise but it wasn't you know what i mean and it's like the saint was great yeah and then you see different things that he probably i mean who knows what happens if he's in hunt for october or if he's in any one of these movies i think he was a super weirdo oh yeah i mean even in the 90s i think he was too weird yeah yeah jump closer has a great like piece he did yes when he was full weird yeah but i think he was always weird and i think that hurt him like johnny depp's weird but not in a way where people are afraid to hire him yeah and johnny depp obviously has found the five people who understand his weirdness

and they just happen to be like tim burton and g Gordon Brinsky and they make multi-million dollar movies. I found you and Sean. So you have De Niro and Pacino, you have Kilmer, the best Sizemore ever. Oh, yeah. You have the birth of John Voight as all of a sudden becoming a character actor. Yeah, and it launched like his whole character thing. You have five guys who became the guys that weren't their names.

So Wes Studi is basically Last of Mohicans bad guy. Yes. Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs. Ted Levine. Great. And he's so cool in this movie. Was she a big fat person? You don't know what pain is, lady!

You have Bubba Gump. Michael T. Williamson. Michael T. Williamson. You have Wayne Groh, who's just Wayne Groh. I don't even think he has a real name. He's now signing autographs as Wayne Groh. Now I'm going to go super, super, super IMDb dark on your hair. Silent Rage guy.

Who's that? Brian Libby from Silent Rage. He's in Shawshank. He plays one of the buddies in Shawshank. He's the bad guy in Silent Rage. He's one of those guys. He's a great that guy. Who's he in Heat?

He's one of the cops. Oh, wow. He's. Who's he in Heat? He's one of the cops. Oh, wow. He's in the Pacino team. So there's a couple other guys. There's William Fichtner, who's in Armageddon and a bunch of 90s stuff. He plays Van Sant, the money laundering guy. Tom Noonan. Tom Noonan.

Internet legend. Yeah, and he's the one who invents the internet. He's like, this stuff is just out there. Telcom. It's just out there. All you have to know is grab it. I can grab it. $13.9 million. It's true. That movie and Sandra Boke you have to know is grab it. I can grab it. 13.9 million.

It's true. That movie and Sandra Boke in the dead invented the internet. Yeah. Hank Azaria. Yep. Dennis Haysburg, who went on to become the president in 24. Jeremy Piven with no hair. Jeremy Piven was just a one-off scene.

I couldn't tell. Is that considered a cameo or was that really all Jeremy Piven could do at the time? That was it. Yeah. Because he's in like PCU, right? Yeah. He doesn't want us to remember he was in that movie because he did not have the Ari Harriot. Yeah. Because he's in like PCU, right? Yeah. He doesn't want us to remember he was in that movie. Yeah, he's in singles.

Because he did not have the Ari hair yet. Yeah, Dr. Heal Thyself. He has not yet gotten the Ari hair. Two incredible cameos. Henry Rollins wasn't even a cameo. He was in like five scenes. He's just in the movie, yeah. He's like a key part.

Yeah. Nobody remembers who Henry Rollins is now unless you're like in our age range. But Henry Rollins had a run there with like in our age range. But Henry Rollins had a run there with MTV, The Liar Song, he had a bunch of them. He was in that movie

with Christy Swanson and Charlie Sheen, The Chase, right? And then Tone Loke. Oh, yeah. Which is, that cameo is not age well from a who the hell

is that guy perspective. Right. But in the moment, it was like, hey, that's Tone Loke. I love all those scenes, the one at the chop shop and then he goes

and sees Tone Loke at BJ's on Alvarado at 2 a.m. Yeah. And then Four Women. Ashley Judd. Peak Ashley Judd. Absolutely. She's never looked better in a movie.

I've never liked her more in a movie. Diana Venora never totally made it. Stage actress has done a bunch of different stuff. But actually, I love their relationship. It's really great. Yeah. It shouldn't work in every scene. But it's actually good.

And it's messed up. Natalie Portman, second movie ever. Right after The Professional, right? Or right before it? If you're talking about cutting down the movie, maybe take out every Natalie Portman scene. Right, so we mentioned L.A. Takedown, and I think that it feels like sometimes the Dennis Haysbert plotline and the Natalie Portman plotline feel like television plotlines. Like if you're on episode nine of the season of heat, you're like, okay, yeah, let's spend, let's find out why like the Natalie Portman character is depressed or how it's going for

this guy being a short order cook at a diner. But in the movie heat, it feels a little bit extraneous. Although I think that one of the things that this film is does really well is show how all of these people's lives just kind of intersect it with this perfect moment for all this stuff to happen. Right. Yeah. And the last female, Amy Brenneman. Yeah, Judge and Amy.

Incredible Amy Brenneman run there in the mid-90s. NYPD Blue. She's great. Yeah. I immediately had a crush on her. I was like, I'd love to meet her and marry her if possible. Then she was in uh in this yeah she left nypd blue to do to make movies and i think that she just wound up doing

judging amy for a few years is that right oh you left out a key one which one daylight was sliced alone oh right how dare you and now she's had a comeback with the leftovers i always liked her yeah let's talk a little bit about um her relationship with neil mccauley because i always find their meet cute to be really weird where it's just like they meet in that bookstore you know and she's she walks by him and then they see each other again at the diner and she's just like what's your book about he's like medals it's just like it's not exactly like the stuff that tinder dreams are made out of but i really wind up hitting it off should we just go to the lessons?

Because that was one of my lessons. Yeah, sure, let's do some of it. We can do tangents off the lessons. This is one of the lessons from Heat. Never fall for a guy who starts courting you by saying, lady, why are you so interested in what I read and what I do? That's it, walk away. That's not making yourself emotionally available.

Yeah, walk away. This is not meant to last. And that's how their courting starts. Yeah, one way. This is not meant to last. And that's how the recording starts. Why does she like De Niro? I mean, talk about having... I think she's lonely. She's from Kentucky, and she's just working as a graphic designer. I can't believe I know all this about Edie, the character.

Edie. But she's working as a graphic designer in Santa Monica, and she says that the city is kind of lonely, and that's when Neil's like, I am alone. I am not lonely. Do you remember that? And they just kind of hit it off. I don't know. He goes up and shows her the algae, the way that the sea looks like algae at night or whatever. He talks about going to Tahiti and he has that whole speech and they just, they're two crazy kids in love.

Well, that was a minor lesson for me. This is one of the major lessons. There's five major lessons in heat and this is lesson number one and something i hope my daughter remembers someday never fall for a guy with no furniture that's really good point it's great yeah he's like i'll get around to it you're gonna get around to furniture that that that makes me nervous why don't you have furniture you don't have a tv so you think not having furniture is a bigger deal than falling in love with a guy with a reckless and debilitating gambling habit like like the val kilmer character has at least that's something no furniture is like nothing the guy could be going tomorrow actually judge shoes it's just like he comes home he's just robbed he's just robbed this uh this bank bank truck and he's just like i'm sorry baby i

had to pay off some debts you know i had the yeah to, I lost, I took a wash in the Super Bowl and she just gets so mad. Well, that's, you brought up the Netflix and it struck me last night, this would have been the greatest 10 episode Netflix series of all time because we never see the Val Kilmer gambling problem. We don't have the scene where he drives to Foxwoods

and loses $58,000 in three hours. He drives out to Arizona to get the detonating the detonation stuff for the for the truck and on his way back you know he stops at morongo no question i want to see val kilmer i want to see him on seventh street get killed by the last ace coming around the corner i'll get the money tomorrow you better i want all those scenes we didn't get any of those it was just like yeah he has a gambling problem does val kilmer is is he the toughest guy ever to have that haircut yeah in that movie the blonde it was really the only only era you could have gotten with the haircut and been a bad guy yeah like it's a holdover from the late 80s nobody's told him that he doesn't have to

tuck a gap t-shirt into baggy jeans with a blunt because if you see that guy now you're just like i bet that guy does not rob banks well now he would have a bunch of tattoos right he'd have some crazy haircut with like whatever and he'd have piercings and a bunch of tattoos like oh i get it this guy robs banks but you watch that movie there and it's like what is this guy like in the fabulous baker boys with jeff bridges yeah let's see what's going on uh yeah from a netflix standpoint the stories that would have helped the most to cook uh dennis hayes bird totally in that nat the stories that would have helped the most The Cook Dennis Haysbert totally in that Natalie Portman

would have been great yeah I don't know if she belongs in this movie what's Natalie Portman like at school what school do you think like she's

what is she going to is she going to Santa Monica High is she going to Harvard Westlake no she's going to a private school but she's bounced around

yeah she was at the center for a year she got kicked out did a whole bunch of stuff. She's smoking weed behind the bleachers. Oh, yeah. No question.

Telling everybody their stepdad's a cop and that it's okay. Yeah. No question. Yeah. So you have that. You have, I would have liked to know more about Van Zandt. Yeah. And his whole business.

Yeah. And Jon Voight. All we hear is like Cayman Islands offshore. He's like, get me the spreadsheets for the Cayman Islands offshore. That's true. Cayman Islands was a big. Huge. 85 to 95. Huge time for the cayman islands offshore not that's true cayman islands was a big huge 85 to 95 yeah movie yeah a lot of movies are cayman islandsy so if they said the heat is going to be on netflix they're remaking it okay it's gonna be 12 episodes

they're blowing out the movie michael mann's involved he's doing it so we're starting with same premise cop and bank robber who are basically the same except for one central difference i mean it doesn't have to be netflix either it could be amazon prime hulu i don't know if hbo now has made a commitment to doing like a 12 episode giant they'd probably just have it on hbo but let's say one of these places does this would you be excited or would you not be excited if it was a straight remake i think that there is parts of heat that i think would be very interesting to see in the modern world 2016 heat right so here's the thing though i think that all of these kinds of movies that involve surveillance or investigations are ultimately um much more interesting without the internet and without like

oh we can just read his emails and find like the departed is the right at the edge where like they're tracking guys based on their like motorola or their ericsson brick phones remember in the part of like it's all the stuff in the pocket with the phone and they're they're triangle triangulating it heat doesn't have any of that it's great that they actually have to follow these guys around and watch them with night vision cameras so i'd really like that rather than we're just sitting in a truck and we're like reading all these guys text messages and emails and everything like that there's a little bit it's like almost feels like cheating so i wouldn't want that that's part of the problem maybe that'd be part of the

charm you remake it in the internet world where you have to make it so that we're we're not old school oh man it was better when there's but I still don't know if, I enjoyed, for instance, this season of Homeland is fine, but it's pretty boring to just watch a bunch of people do stuff on computers, no matter what.

I'm out. That's why I'm out. Yeah. So I would rather he'd stick to the streets and get off the net. Although Homeland broke my streak of I fell asleep during the first four episodes. Which would have been a DiMaggio

like 56 fall asleep run. if all right so i have some more lessons when you're robbing an armored truck don't call anyone slick yeah good to know yeah if he just doesn't say slick nobody ever catches these guys tom sizemore the one sort of unbelievable thing is the way that they did slick they hung down on slick this entire criminal conspiracy he's like you run slick through the database you're gonna get the phone book back do it anyway and then of course yeah they say slick at bj's you know and it just it totally gets sizemore's character yeah yeah it's a little but you always have reaches in these kind of movies yeah uh never leave a living witness. Good to know.

Apparently. If you're going to take out most of the witnesses, just keep going. Just get rid of all the witnesses. Don't take out 80% of the witnesses. Why leave one or two? Do you want to talk now? Because we're talking about that witnesses thing is what gets Wayne Groh in trouble, right?

So he kills a guy and then De Niro feels like he has to go. He's making a move, man. He's like, I had to get it on. I had to get it, man. He's making a move, man. He's like, I had to get it on. I had to get it, man. He's making a move. You have a lot of problems with Wayne Groh's escape in the parking lot of the diner. So they're about to kill Wayne Groh and the cop car kind of drives by slowly. And Wayne Groh somehow Spider-Man's out of there.

I don't like the whole diner scene because first of all, when De Niro is repeatedly slamming his face against the table. I feel like the other customers would have been more upset about it they look at they they stare them over but not there's like yeah yeah it's and then they all leave together it just seems like somebody's calling that into the cops so let's say you and i are at a diner and we see that happen we see one guy slam another guy's head into the table four times right after uh a huge armored truck robbery that had four dead cops yeah which was exit which was perpetrated by four guys is your move just stare straight ahead of me chris let's start talking about the celtics is this we're getting up and leaving no you just you don't move you just stay there you don't move okay

so they go out and neo who i think is a really smart, thoughtful criminal, really good at what he does. Really good. Just always makes the right move. Starts beating him up. They have the trunk ready that's wrapped. The lining, which is great. You see that trunk of the lining, you're in trouble. People have put a lot of thought into your murder.

Hits him a couple times. Cop comes around. And Neo, De Niro, just kind of loses track of Wayne Grove. All three of them look up. He's like a safety. Like, he loses Odell Beckham on the 84-yard pass. Yeah. Just keep your foot on him.

It's like if three defensive backs look the other way while they're supposed to be looking at Odell. Just put your foot on him. He's right underneath you. What are you doing? It's a much shorter movie then. Yeah. I guess. To me, that and then in the bank scene,

the amount of Pacino's coming down the street for 10 minutes. All they're doing is walking from the bank to the car. Valcomer's walk from the bank to the car, it's like a mile long, even though it's 50 feet away. Yeah. And he's just walking and then Pacino's gaining another block. He's getting out of the car with his gun and Valcomer's just still making the 10 steps yeah little timing issue for me on

that one but that's part of the thing that's really interesting that they actually almost do that scene in real time I mean yeah so what's another lesson you have there uh after you steal bear bonds from a criminal don't try to sell them back to him can I add a little bit of a footnote onto that? Yeah, please do. Don't do the resale in an abandoned parking lot or abandoned drive-in parking lot on Sentinella. You're right.

Yeah, maybe just a little bit more public. You know, like MacArthur Park? I don't know, maybe that's a little dangerous, but you just, if all you're doing is a simple exchange, maybe don't do it in the most remote place possible. Yeah, I didn't like that one. There's no better threat than i'm talking to an empty telephone oh my god if i call you never say that just run because there's a dead man on the other end of this line on this line great deniro yeah deniro's never i think this and goodfellas were his two best i'm just

pissed off and i want to wrench somebody's neck faces yeah he just had over and over again uh when your criminal friends your buddies your compatriots when you're planning something with them and they tell you one guy says the bank is worth the risk and the other says for me the action is the juice wait so you got to give this a little bit finish the lesson those aren't good reasons to rob a bank i need more the action is worth the risk it's like well why is it worth the risk yeah one and then he's got to pay off his gamblers and get charlene back yeah so i want more info from him val kilmer and then tom sizemore is like for me the action is the juice

it's like so you're a complete psychopath well okay but here's the thing is that the funniest part about that scene is that neil's like look you've got t bonds you've got real estate she takes good care of you you're all set up why does de niro know so much about his financial portfolio right he's just like i didn't know you worked at northwestern mutual and then the best part is that this is like peak if you want to pinpoint the greatest moment in tom sizemore's acting career it's right here yeah where he takes like a solid 10 seconds of beat and then he he blinks 50 times, and he goes, for me, the action is the juice.

Yeah, and he's dancing in the ring with De Niro in his prime, too. You can tell he's feeling it. He's like, I'm going to show this scene. I'm taking my 10 seconds. I'm showing this scene to my grandkids. When I die, this is going to my obit reel. This is it. The action is the juice.

I'm going right at De Niro. He told his girlfriend the night before. De deniro and i are going head dead yeah the uh that's another slight stretch here yeah i i think neil is too smart to rob the bank when he knows there's that much heat right right i just think he's like you know what guys let's wait a year we'll get the heat off us, then we'll make another move. Well, he's got to get out of town with Edie. They have to go on vacation. He doesn't have enough money? He's going to New Zealand.

How much money do you need to go live in New Zealand? Part of it is that he has a lot of money tied up in some other job that they tried to do and that it didn't work out. So he had paid all up front for that. And then I think that he's not spending money on furniture. And apparently he's not in T-bonds in uh real estate yeah uh oh this is a good one this almost could have been a major lesson but i had as a minor lesson don't stay in the car patiently waiting for your psychotic criminal boyfriend if he mysteriously entered a massive

hotel without giving you a heads up and 10 minutes later everyone is pouring out of the hotel and dozens of police cars and fire engines have arrived i'm gonna say just drive away when you're on your way to the airport have you ever been to the airport i think in two times in my life have i ever been like i need to stop on my way to the airport and both times have been for nicorette patches but both times were pretty sketchy when I did it like I think that my Uber driver

and my wife were both just like this is insane we're on our way to the airport hey what are you doing yeah Juliet

our friend Juliet loves these movies where the women have terrible choices and men basically yeah and that the whole movie is centered around

she shouldn't have picked this guy she should be with this guy and said that's like the rom-com foundation. He's like, you can leave now or on your own. You take this, you know?

Nobody's ever had a worse choice in a man than Amy Brenneman in this movie. I don't care if you've just moved to LA and you don't know anyone. Because at least the Diane Venora, Al Pacino, like they just so fully know where they are in their lives together. And it's like, you know, Amy Brenneman

is really in for a surprise. She's watching the news and it's like, yeah,y brenneman is is really in for a surprise she's watching the news and it's like yeah the biggest bank robbery disaster of all time 20 people are dead neil comes strolling home she's like did you do this he's like it's a book about metals that's why i needed it yeah she should have run all right here's the major lessons that I have. Never fall for a guy with no furniture. We covered that. Don't let word get out on the street that it's okay to steal your stuff.

No, never. Never. I got to say, I feel that way myself. Well, here's the thing. What are you going to do about it? Oh, I might do something. Are you going to send me and Sean to a drive-in on Sentinella with a package of t-shirts? Nobody's stealing stuff from Bill Simmons.

Never fall for God, no furniture. You know the risk. You don't have to be there. If it rains, you get wet. I actually think that's a great high school senior yearbook quote. I already graduated by the time he came out so it's

a good fortune cookie yeah if it rains you get wet it's a fact know the risks if you can do something do it it might rain you might get wet uh if you have a regular life that revolves around barbecue and ball games your life sucks yes that's awesome can we talk a little bit about like incredible the domestic life of Vincent Hanna here? Because my favorite parts of this movie are, uh, one of my favorite parts of this movie, or when he comes home after various long days at the office.

And by long days at the office, I mean like investigating murders and major robbery homicides. Yeah. He comes home and he's just like, I'm sorry if the chicken got overcooked. It's such a great line. And she's just like i'm sorry if the chicken got overcooked it's such a great line and she's just like i'm okay whatever and then the best is when he comes home and ralph is there yeah ralph and he goes i'm very angry ralph you can lounge around here on her sofa in her

ex-husband's dead tech post-modernistic bullshit house if you want to but you do not get to watch my fucking television it's amazing and it's such a shitty television the tv yeah shut up ralph sit down it's uh and she's like this is what i have to do to get closure yeah i have to demean myself with ralph i'm wasting on prozac and and alcohol on grass and prozac yeah. Yeah, that is a messed up relationship. Baby, Brenneman, and De Niro, actually, I feel better about that relationship. Yeah, it's healthier. A lot less baggage.

And the last one, obviously, the famous one, and a great lesson for anything in life. Have no attachments. Have nothing in your life that you can't walk away from in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner. What I love about this, first of all, great advice for a criminal to another criminal. They work the title of the movie. It's great. Into the signature quote. It's not like spotlight.

The heat. Yeah, heat. You're right. Spotlight? Spotlight. Because this is a Corolla bit. But when movies shoehorn it in. And Corolla sometimes thinks they came up with the title before the plot.

But like Face Off is a good example. They have a whole scene where travolta's like face off face off he just keeps repeatedly says title this one very subtle but the movie's called heat and it's about the heat around the corner and it's about the decisions you make and whether how much do you care about somebody when you're a criminal? Yeah. Is it, who should you be loyal to? If you remember, the heat's around the corner with him and Val Kilmer, and Val Kilmer gets shot. Technically, he should have listened to himself and left, but he loves Val Kilmer. This is another example of why this can't really be remade, is because that concept

of leaving everything you have in 30 seconds and vanishing, I think only the best, greatest criminals could probably pull away of that. You'd have to be planning to do that for quite some time. Because even if I had interest in doing that, even if I was like, I'm going to walk out of this place and I'm going to be gone in 30 seconds. Don't do that to me. I'm not going to do that. Okay.

But I'm just saying, I wouldn't be able to do it. There's too much of a digital footprint. People would just be able to go into my email and be like, oh, you bought a plane ticket to Phoenix. Yeah. You know, like you wouldn't be able to, I think that back then you paid for things in checks and cash more. You know what I mean?

It was a little harder to track your money. I don't know, it just seems like it would be impossible to even pull off the basic premise of this movie now. You feel very safe and content about the fact that this movie is confined to a specific era and now can't translate to a different era. And it's timeless, though. It doesn't feel dated, but I don't think that you could do it with a lot of the stuff that's happening now.

Everything leads to, at the end, the heat is around the corner. He's got 30 seconds to decide whether to roll with Brenneman or not. And unlike when he left Val Kilmer, or when he kept Val Kilmer and saved them he leaves Brenneman behind right now do you think he's leaving Brenneman behind because he has to you know he's getting chased but do you think it's because he wants to keep her safe I think he's just like this lady's a loser if she's still here with chaos chaos in the hotel like I gotta get rid of her I don't want to raise kids with her man Man's view of the end of this movie is very telling because he was like,

this guy winds up dying with the person who, the only person in the world who truly understands him. Are you okay with the hand touching at the end? Yeah, I think it's amazing. I think it's an incredible moment. I think it's incredible that it happens at LAX where all these planes are taking off and landing and it's like departures and arrivals.

And I think the music is amazing at the end with, uh, I think it's, uh, it's a great, the movie track. And, uh,

it's very, I find it very moving. That's another, that's another thing that could never happen now is nobody's just stumbling into an area where airplanes are taking off and landing with machine guns. Cause Pacino catched an arrow. Let's, let's talk about that.

No, I always thought that was really unlikely. Pacino's working on two packs a day. He's been up for two days. It's impossible. De Niro had a really good head start. The reason why this should show in the movie theater every once in a while, because a couple of these scenes are amazing, and the scene that doesn't hold up on your normal TV versus in the theater is that airplane scene.

And the planes and the lights from the planes. The music is so loud. The noise. It was just such an incredible ending. It's like God smiling over the water or something. I can't remember the name of the Moby song, but it's really, really beautiful. It's a great ending.

I don't have really lessons as much as I have questions. Okay. Enduring questions from Heat. I want to know where the guy is that did the Pacino stunt work when he comes running through the door and tackles Henry Rollins. Oh, yeah. Because there's a shot of him and it looks like Joe Jerevicius. Yeah. It's like all of a sudden Pacino is 22 years younger and is running slant patterns for

somebody. Joe Jerevicius. The Falcons. And he's just like, come over. He jumps an ottoman and just tackles henry rollins and then it's one of the great all-time cutaway it's this is a stunt guy with a wig and then it cuts away and pacino is like i got you you son of a bitch like holding him right um the other one and this is one of the weirdest parts about the movie is has anyone in the history of american pickup basketball ever interrupted a pickup basketball game to ask where you can get a loaf of bread

which is what val kilmer does at the end when he goes to charlene's apartment and she's just like gives him the hand gesture that says the cops are here you remember that big big flaw and he goes up to that pickup game those guys are playing in the dark yeah first of all and he goes hey guys hey guys they all stop like it's not like where they're like we're playing basketball you can like hang out for a second and they come over to the gate he's like uh where can i get some bread around here and they they act like it's a totally normal question oh good question when is the last time anyone's ever asked you where can i get some bread gluten-. What are you looking for? Sourdough? That's true. Yeah.

That seems very flawed because there's a massive manhunt for these people that destroyed downtown and murdered all these cops. They know he's coming to see Ashley Judd. Yeah. They know what he looks like. Yeah. He got a haircut. It's not like he had facial reconstructive surgery. It's not that bad.

He gets a haircut. He's also limping because he's had his clavicle shattered by a bullet. Yeah. He's limping. He looks in pain, gets out of his car, and they're like, yeah, let him go. He checked out. Yeah. He checked out.

He checked out his Val Kilmer. I'm going to do some. Oh, you have more? No, no. That's pretty much it. Those are my two main questions. Do you have some more lessons? No.

What I do have is some Pacino lines I wanted to do. Okay. Give me all you got. Give me all you got. By the time I get to Phoenix. This can't be karaoke. That scene is my favorite scene in the movie, actually. It's incredible.

The chop shop scene when he's just like, did you fall in love last night? I'll settle for that. You fell in love last night. I'm okay with that. He's still inside of a woman mode for the first hour of the movie. He eventually jogs out of it. You can tell that's all improv, too, because the two other guys in the scene with him are just like, what the hell is going on?

Pacino's on something today. Don't waste my motherfucking time! Enjoyed that. You can get killed walking your doggy! Who is he talking to with that scene i can't remember is that his area it's one of the two black guys oh yeah right yeah yeah when he's when right who was the other black guy we took one was tone loke the other was somebody i didn't

really recognize i think it was ricky he was a comedian back then i think he was like on deaf comedy jan uh shut up ralph sit down what we got what we got ricky harris ricky harris right the end when he thinks deniro's gone what we got bon voyage motherfucker you were good there was like there's a couple of scenes where like that it feels like they didn't quite get the chronology right because there's a bunch of scenes in a row where al pacino's like eight hours eight hours and they're gone to get a new exit plan they like he's talking about their exit strategy and like they're and they're out and he's just like he keeps being obsessed with this and it's like if you stopped worrying so much about whether or not they were able to get plane tickets and just pursued them yeah i think you would have

caught up yeah uh all i am is all i'm going after yeah that was a good good line yeah really good line i am what I am and I do what I do. And then the best one, only because of the pauses which were vaguely reminiscent of Pat Summerall doing murder,

she wrote, because she's got a great ass and you got your head all the way up it. I don't understand. That scene's incredible. That is pretty amazing.

Azaria has no idea what is going on in that scene. It's the best 10 seconds of Pacino's career. That is pretty amazing. Azaria has no idea what is going on in that scene. It's the best 10 seconds of Pacino's career. I want to know if that was in the script or if Pacino ad-libbed it. Even if it is, the delivery is so on Pluto that you know that nobody in that scene knew it was coming. Do you think, is Azaria just overmatched by the amount of acting talent in the room? Or was he playing a guy who's overwhelmed? I think he's playing a guy who's overwhelmed, for sure.

I felt like he was overmatched in the Pacino scene. It's also a thing with school. He was kind of like, oh my God, this guy's a maniac. What does he play again? Like a suit salesman from Vegas or something like that? He's having sex with Ashley Judd? Yeah. Oh, we have a couple more things here.

There's a flip side to that coin. There's a seven second pause. What if I got to take you down? Incredible. Just incredible. Has there ever been a better, I'm rooting for the bad guys, and I don't know why, but I really want the bad guys to get away movie than this movie. Yeah. All these guys are bad guys.

They've murdered cops. They just shot armored truck security guards. They're all taking hostages. Yeah, they're taking hostages. They blew up a truck. He's like, see that? Hey, Slick, see that stuff coming out of their ears? They can't hear you.

It's like, these are horrible guys. Come on, get away. Just keep shooting. You'll get out of there. Come on, Val, get him. Yeah. Tom Sizemore grabs a little kid in the park as like a shield. I'm like, oh, good move.

Good move. That's also a moment where Pacino makes that shot to save the kid and kill Sizemore. Risky. It's probably one of the greatest like long range shots in like American combat history. And he just like drops the gun and goes off running towards the supermarket where Kilmer and Pacino is. Not even a high five to anybody or anything. It's 480 yards away. Yeah, I can't remember.

There have been other bad guy movies, but this is the one where if you really take a step back. The bank robbery scene is very crazy because you think that they're just trapped. This is another reason why in 95 there wasn't as much information about movies going into them. So I don't think I even knew how long the movie was.

I thought the bank robbery scene was going to be the last scene in the movie. Right. So you're just kind of like, I guess this is it. I guess this is. And then it's like, oh, my God. Yeah. They got away. And now it's another hour of them running.

And then De Niro's in the car and he's like, and he's like, what's Van Zandt's address? And where's Wayne Bro? Yeah. Danny Trejo. He goes to Danny Trejo's house. He's Van Zandt's address? And where's Wayne Grow? Yeah. Danny Trejo. He goes to Danny Trejo's house. He's like, oh, we're going to go find Wayne Grow? This is a special bonus. Wayne Grow needed to be in Honolulu by then, though.

If you've ratted out that crew, you're on the first plane to Thailand. You cannot stay in Los Angeles. Are you pro or con him hunting down Wayne Grow? Oh, absolutely pro are you pro or con wayne grow just randomly murdering a young prostitute so what's up with that plot line that's another television cut that one out i think it was really they needed the pacino hug with the mom yeah and it gives and it shows like the i mean i thought that that actually did a good job you're talking about like sympathizing with the bad guys like that actually does a good job of showing like you know just how destructive these guys are you know and even though

you can appreciate i mean the thing that's so cool about this movie is and a lot of michael man movies are about this is they're about the minutiae of work right yeah so they're about the process and the details that go into the solving or the setting up of crimes and that's what's the best part about, like after the truck robbery and there's this awesome shot where it's inside of the car and Pacino rolls up and gets out and he doesn't even talk.

All his guys are coming up to him and being like, this guy saw that. There are the fingerprints on this. The detonation device is exotic. And he doesn't even have to ask. He's just pointing and nodding. And you can just, you just immediately feel like you're working with them.

And you're learning so much. Even if it's a movie. But the thing that's so incredible about this movie is its attention to detail. Well, I agree with everything you just said. And I thought in that, I think it was the Rolling Stone thing that was out. Yeah. That came out this week. Yeah, it was like a Michael Mann as told to thing.

I felt like Michael Mann felt this way about the movie. But it was good to hear him say that. So here's his quote. If you track the movie from a storytelling point of view, who are you supposed to empathize with at the end of the film? You want Bob to get away and you want Al to get Bob. I love when people call De Niro Bob. I love it. I can't do it.

I just call him Robert or De Niro. So you want Bob to get away. You want Al to get Bob. Both are true simultaneously and the two fuse there's a fusion in the end of the two men in this perfect counterpoint it's not complicated but it has complexity it's ordered in symmetry

and so the way that these stories are told and how these lives are opposed against each other is maybe why we're still talking about heat so I think he went into that movie and he's like I want to create a movie where ultimately the audience there's a chase scene at the end yeah and the audience is rooting for both guys equally yeah and i'm gonna spend two hours and 35 minutes getting to this point and i think a huge part about the way the movie makes you feel at the end is the fact that it ends with those guys

holding hands instead of pacino gets de niro and then all the cops come and Pacino and Diane Venora have like a quiet moment where he's just like, I guess he finally felt the heat. You know, it's like, you know, it's, it's not, it's not Pacino's movie. It's both of their movies. And, and I think that you're left with thinking about their relationship, how they were similar, the one, one way they were different, which is one guy is trying to protect people and another guy doesn't care about protecting people. And even though they're the same

in terms of their dedication to something and the way that that thing defines who they are, it's a lot deeper than that. It makes me quite emotional when I watch the end of it. Does it make you emotional that I ruined his whole 30 seconds heat around the corner thing because he did go back for Val Kilmer. No, I was there.

You're a hypocrite. I never really thought. You're a hypocrite, Neil. I thought you got away with the heats around the corner. Why are you going back to get Val Kilmer and his shattered clavicle? Just start running. You have a bag of money. Just go.

We didn't talk about the diner scene. Yeah, let's do it. So the interesting thing about this is that when Michael Mann and Art Linson decided that they were going to make this movie and they decided that they wanted to offer it to Pacino and De Niro, they did it. They had that conversation at the diner that they wound up shooting. Kate Manolini's. Yeah. Now defunct. Right.

Right. So that was like a very cool little. So Kate Manolini's, it's on Beverly Hills. It's in Beverly Hills on Wilshire. And they had a big poster of the two of them face to face okay but remember there was a whole internet legend in the 2000s that they weren't in the same scene when they filmed it right that there's like over the shoulder shots or whatever it's like they never they couldn't stand each other and all these different reasons for it and meanwhile the end of the movie they're in the same scene for the last 10 minutes and

it's like I'm pretty sure they were okay with each other yeah the whole narrative i don't know why he chose to just show the two angles of de niro's face with pacino's head in the background and then vice versa but he never did the wide shot of them and i kind of respect it he had to have had a reason it's an incredible scene the movie's leading up to it you want it to happen you don't know if it's going to happen um in the theater i'm like are these guys ever is it you want it to happen you don't know if it's going to happen um in the theater i'm like are these guys ever is it you know it's almost like in basketball you get like let's say lebron and kobe had actually played each other in the 08 finals and then finals they're like are these guys gonna guard each other right oh they're guarding each other oh here we go i thought the

brilliant part about that scene is that the conversation is weird like the cover like the guy's just like i have these dreams everybody i've ever worked like these cases i've worked they're looking back at me with eight ball hemorrhages it's like it's an edonero's like oh i have that i have a dream where i'm drowning or something like that and he's like they're analyzing each other's dreams and then they have that conversation where it's just like i will not hesitate you know blah blah but there's something about the how idiosyncratic the conversation is that's perfect. If they just sat down and started yelling at each other and doing all these big shot lines,

I think it would have been a little bit distracting. There's information gathering on both ends. And then Mann tried to make the point in the Rolling Stone piece that whatever Pacino gleaned in that conversation. Yeah, Macaulay slips and seems to say, like, I'm like, because what does he say? Like, I'm not a monk. 30 seconds around the corner. Yeah, but he says something where he's to say, because what does he say? 30 seconds around the corner. Yeah, but he says something where he's like, what are you, a monk?

No, I got a girl. Yeah, right, and that gives it away. Yeah, another bad move by Neil Macaulay. Overrated a little bit, Neil Macaulay. Overrated as a criminal. Low PR as a criminal. I might have a girlfriend, I might not. Isn't that the answer?

It's a book about medals. Maybe I'm gay, I don't know. I'm a metal guy, I don't know. I love your furniture. Who wins the din the answer? It's a book about metals. Maybe I'm gay. I don't know. I'm a metal guy. I don't know. I don't read furniture. Who wins the diner scene? I think it's Pacino. I think he's like a little bit.

You think he's on the offensive a little? Yeah. I mean, I think that it's hard to say somebody wins because I think that those guys were so dialed in to playing the roles. Yeah. Even though Neil gives something away, Neil's very cagey. And I think that Vincent is supposed to be the aggressor and the guy's trying to seduce him into saying something he doesn't want to say.

And yeah, so I think that it's Pacino, but it's not because De Niro does a bad job. So it's like a split decision. Pacino wins 115 to 114 on the card, but somebody else had it. 117 to 111, De Niro. And they have to have a rematch, basically. I wish.

I thought De Niro won. Okay. But I'm not a tester. I mean, Pacino ultimately wins the movie at the end. Because De Niro had no schtick at all. Pacino got a little schticky in there. And then at the end, Pacino slightly smiles at the tail end. Yeah.

And it was like De Niro broke him a little bit. Like, here we are. Just two guys. Bob and Al. I thought it was fascinating that michael man like that whole thing he said about how that was basically the scene in the movie is the first take he wanted the energy of those two going ahead they didn't do a lot of rehearsal i don't know either yeah i don't think they did yeah and he wanted them to just go boom anything else did we cover everything no i think it's good i mean let me check my list to

make sure any more lessons to teach me well what's the other thing is these guys were never totally the same after this movie took a lot out of them so it's like the 87 finals i want to look at patino here uh he does a lot of stuff after this that i feel like is uh he starts to do a little bit self-parody and it gets really bad as the as the career goes on but after he does city hall which is i think like no don't but don't no okay no donnie brasco which was supposed to be sort of in deflating the gangster legend a little bit devil's advocate yeah pretty sad the insider he's great in the insider it's great in the insider uh any given sunday which is his last great moment not you can't really criticize any given sunday it exists

in a different plane of existence he's unbelievable in that movie yeah he's really great i would say that's one of his four best performances the whole movie he's great and that's it then then the wheels came off so i i do think he yeah until until 2005 so maybe he did for the money the wheel the wheels were off in 0203 pacino uh deniro kind of gravitated into that weird meets meet the parents i'll do any movie just make me an offer stage which i think culminated in 15 minutes with uh uh big grantland fan ed burns he's kind of come back a little bit with the David O. Russell stuff. But hasn't done what an amazing performance by Robert De Niro specifically for...

God, I'm looking here. What was from Heat? What were the next ones? Well, here's the thing. He had a pretty cool run here. Yeah, he did. The fan, sleepers... The fan was awful. Sleepers, not bad. Marvin's room, awful. Copland, he's. So he goes The Fan, Sleepers. The Fan was awful. Yeah. Sleepers, not bad. Marvin's Room.

Awful. Copland. He's good in Copland. Pretty good. Not a huge role. Great in Wag the Dog. Yeah. Jackie Brown, he's phenomenal in.

Unbelievable. And then, of course, this is a movie. We could do a complete other podcast about this movie, but Ronan. Oh, you know how I feel about Ronan. Also one of the first great DVDs. One of the all-time great cameo movies. One of the great chase scenes ever.

It actually has a couple great chase scenes. Ronan is actually the last one. Ronan is literally the last. I think somewhere around, he was making too many movies and somewhere around that time it stopped feeling as special

when De Niro was in a movie and I'm not sure when. Yeah. And now it's like pretty much when he does a David O. Russell movie he's pretty good but otherwise it's just kind of crap both of those guys had rigged it so that when they released a movie i remember when sea of love was coming out i was like pagino's back oh my god yeah this is amazing yeah because that was when those guys would

take like two or three years in between yeah yeah and now denaro's making like the only person who does that now is daniel Lewis. Yeah. Heat 2. Would you see it? Still hot? Heat 2. What would it be about? The heat's still around the corner. De Niro's not dead. He's passed out.

De Niro was fine. He's fine. He passed out. He was like, hey, I'm here still. What's going on? He saved them. They blood transfused and he made it. Oh, what about Heat 2?

Natalie Portman's character is a cop now. Oh. I would see that. She's chasing Val Kilmer. Michael Mann directing Natalie Portman as a homicide detective in Los Angeles

and she comes across someone maybe it could be another a female bank robber she falls in love with Neil's son

Neil Jr. Neil Jr. from another marriage he had a son we didn't realize with Danny Trejo's daughter it's yeah I would see he too yeah that'd be a good one would you reboot it with any actors We didn't realize. It was Danny Trejo's daughter.

Yeah, I would see Heat too. Yeah. That'd be a good one. Would you reboot it? Any actors who you think would be good at squaring off against each other? Who would be the two you'd want to put up? So who is the modern equivalent of the Heat diner scene? I don't think there is.

I don't think anyone means as much to this generation as De Niro and Pacino meant in the mid-90s to people who love movies. I think the two guys who are up there I think would be, for me, would probably be Downey and Denzel. Not on the De Niro and Pacino. No, of course not, but in terms of movie stars who have acting chops, who would be really interesting to see the two of them square off. I think Downey and

Denzel. Wouldn't it be Downey and Leo? Can't we all agree that denzel's kind of on the but i still i still think that like when denzel like really grabs the the stick shift it goes you know it's like oh yeah i think he still has incredible moves he's getting like in flight he's still like oh denzel's an incredible actor. Daniel Day-Lewis in Downey? No, I feel like it has to be guys who feel like you'd see them on Wilshire. You'd see them on Figueroa. That's an open challenge to Daniel Day-Lewis.

You don't think I can do that movie? You don't think I could do it? I'll do it. He would probably move to Los Angeles for two whole years and work in an abandoned drive-in just to feel like he knew what it was like there. I'm working at an old blockbuster on Fairfax. Don't you tell me what I can and can't do, sir.

I'll do whatever I want, Chris Ryan. All of our accents now are Larry Mullen Jr. accents. All right, Heat, I give it a thousand thumbs up. I don't think it's aged at all it has it's there's nothing there's nothing wrong with this great like even pulp fiction i feel like has aged a tiny bit and some of those movies from the 90s this one has not this one could be released in the theaters right now heat 2 natalie portman coming to theaters in 2019 heat 2 or netflix 12 episode modern heat heat 2 because i want i want the big screen experience all right there

you go. Chris Ryan, pleasure. Happy 20th anniversary, my friend. Thank you. You too. We about this bitch. Anytime y'all want to see me again, rewind this track right here. Close your eyes.

And picture me rolling. Love