The Bill Simmons Podcast - Houston’s Surprise Surge, Best West Futures, and the 2024 Defense Draft With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Houston Rockets climbing the ranks in the Western Conference (1:35), the Warriors' down year, and Western Conference teams with the brightest futures (21:22). Then, they talk through some Clippers confusion and whether they're ready to believe in the Bucks (48:18), before drafting the best NBA defenders (1:09:22), wondering if the Nets are in the worst spot in the league (1:27:16), and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, we're still in Niagara to talk about basketball. It's this new sport we've heard of. It's next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend,

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Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on Prime. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. We have new rewatchables coming on Monday night. I know it's still March, but we're heading into April and we're going to do Rock Bottom Week. And we're starting it now on Monday night. The first movie we're doing is called Manchester by the Sea. You might've heard of it. It won KCF like an Oscar. It won the Oscar for Best Original Screenplay. And it is the definition of rock bottom month. So me, Sean Fennessey, Chris Ryan, get ready for that on Monday night.

And then we'll do a bunch of other rock bottom month movies through the month of April. Stay tuned for more selections. That's all coming. You can watch all the rewatchables on youtube.com slash Bill Simmons, as well as videos and clips from this podcast as well. And some walk and talks, including my review of Roadhouse, the remake that I put on there as well. YouTube.com slash Bill Simmons. Coming up right now, Ryan Rosillo talking a lot of NBA,

a little March Madness too. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, taping this a little after 6.30 Pacific time, West Coast time. We wanted to wait until after Warriors-Timberwolves, figuring there would be some subplot that came out of the game. And a subplot did, because here come the Houston Rockets for solo. We would not have guessed this one week ago. We would not have guessed this two weeks ago. There is a scenario now where the Rockets catch and pass the Warriors and Steph Curry is not in the playoffs. Neither is Draymond Green or Chris Paul or Klay Thompson or Steve Kerr. And Houston, who loses Shangoon

two weeks ago and has been undefeated ever since he left, has now become the out-of-nowhere story in the league. I don't even know where to start. Where do you want to start with this? Well, it's funny. I liked watching them even though they weren't a good team. We talked about that, what, three weeks ago? We did a whole Rockets thing.

We were like, what is this team? Yeah, when I started thinking about the league past stuff where, I mean, there's the automatics. It's most of the contenders. And certain nights, you're like, oh, would they play each other

in the playoffs? You're going to learn anything from it. But I go, you know, I'm just really interested in the Rockets. And, you know, the unfortunate thing

about what's happened is Shangoon goes down and then Whitmore's out for a bit. Tari Eason's out for the season. Eason was already gone. Yeah. So when they, and then Whitmore's out for a bit. Tari Eason's out for the season. Eason was already gone, yeah. Yeah.

So when they had this Cam Whitmore stretch of him coming into the game and just going crazy and all this athleticism flying around, and at that point, Eason was already kind of out of the mix. So now all these guys go down, and they're awesome. So I guess you could point to it being a little schedule-y, but they're playing Jabari at center, and now Jalen Green, maybe it's a better version of a Kamingo, where you're waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting. I think Jalen's sophomore numbers were just

he got to take 20 shots a game, but now he's 40% from three from floor and march at nine attempts a game. I don't know if that's going to hold up at Van Vliet. They're shooting the ball well, they're running like crazy. And they've actually, since the stretch, if you dig into the numbers, number two on offense and number seven on defense. 10 and one in their last 11, second in net rating over that stretch. And there's so many places to go, but I mean, we should start with Jalen Green because he wasn't finishing games for them. He was in some stealth trade rumor stuff where it was like, it's hard to tell would they actually think about moving on from him? Could somebody make a godfather offer? There was a Nets Rockets rumor that I never fully believed with Mikael Bridges. Shingun goes out, red as greens

blossoming. And it's not just the threepoint stuff. It feels like they have more space. Because like you, I found myself watching more of the Rockets than maybe I expected this year. And putting Jabari at the five and even Jack Lando, it just feels like green has more space to do stuff. And he's starting to attack the rim. I'm going to say this very carefully. And I know

what's at stake and I know he's not going to be this person. But when I watch him, he reminds me, this version of the attack in the rim and then the jump shooting reminds me a little of young Kobe. Not like three rings in a row Kobe, but that late 90s Kobe where it's like man there's a lot here what's going on here and watching him the last couple weeks it's like man what if you were just drawing a two guard from scratch from from a scoring standpoint what kind of move or shot doesn't he have well I think that's the frustrating thing about it is that when it's right athletically you go oh my god this guy's doing stuff that just few people can do.

The week Aaron Gordon had that tip dunk off the rim in game from the baseline against Boston. And then when you're watching league pass and they'll have the NBA TV top 10 dunks of the week. And these are things I don't normally get mad about anymore since I'm no longer being a teenager, but they had Gordon sixth. And I was at home going like, are you fucking kidding me? How is that sixth? And then they showed the Jalen green dunk from that week. I went, Oh, okay. Nevermind. Yeah. Okay. At least that way. I still don't think

Gordon should have been sixth, but Jalen green had that one where he just went at everybody and look that layup he made the other night. I don't even know how have been sixth, but Jalen Green had that one where he just went at everybody. And look, that layup he made the other night, I don't even know how you try something like that, but it's really about the shooting, Bill. I mean, 40, 41% from three, then that changes everything because before it was a lot of bad. When it's bad, it's a lot of bad shots, and just not enough of them go in.

And I always wondered if they wanted to just Van Vliet and Brooks in there to just take the ball out of his hand so that he wasn't just going high screen and roll and not really playing basketball, just trying to figure out how he could go off. But he's had games prior to this year where you go, okay, well, this is why somebody goes this high. But when I ask you this, Kaminga felt like at their point, okay, see what he's worth at the deadline because it's not working out. Do you think whether it's Kaminga or Jonathan Isaac, who we want to talk about later, who's a different case because he was cheap and had been hurt all the time. So I don't really

know what the market was for him. But I think this is why teams just go, well, the last thing we want to do is give up on him. We'd rather take way too long than give up. It's a great point because he's only 22 years old and he would have a game every once in a while where you would say, oh, exactly. Okay. Jalen Green had 37 points last night. What? And then he would go three for 50 in the next game and get benched by Eme. There's an Eme piece of this that I just can't think is a coincidence because we watched this happen in Boston two years ago. Boston two years ago, people forget this, but they're 25 and 25 after 50 games.

And they went on this 26 to six run down the stretch. And a lot of it was like, he really coached those guys hard. He would get mad at them. He would get mad at Tatum and Brown. He would get mad at Marcus Smart's shot selection. And I think he was tough loving it a little with Green in a good way. And it's ironic that it started paying off right around the same time, right? The Rockets

started at 18 and 16. They go seven and 18 over the next 25. So their record was 25 and 34. And then they've gone 10 and one since. And you mentioned the schedule. They beat the Spurs twice. They beat Washington twice. They beat Portland. They beat Utah. Well, they also beat Sacramento twice. They beat Phoenix and they beat Cleveland. They have a couple more easy games and then it gets hard in the last week, but

it does feel like the light bulb has clicked. It's a surprisingly feisty team. If you think of all the altercations, they just had another one. They had DeRozan and Dylan Brooks. But I wrote down all the different things they had. I had that somewhere.

Oh, Jabari against Chris Dunn. That happened this weekend. That was the second time those guys have gone at it. Brooks to DeRozan. Whitmore had a thing with Devin Booker. Thompson had one against Sohan. And then Ime did the thing with LeBron when he got thrown out of the LeBron game

where he's basically like, who the fuck are you? And called him soft. And the ref was like, you can't say that to LeBron. Kicked him out. But there's like a roll up the sleeves feistiness that I think their fans really like.

I know a couple of Rockets fans and they're all like, this is our favorite team since 18. It feels like the pivot had been the player-friendly guy now. The personalities are different. Younger players. You can't just tell them what to do. You have to tell them why they're doing

it. And this not tough love. It's just this really soft, deferential thing where no matter what, you're just deferring them over and over and over again and that's just not who he was in boston like i used to die laughing when they sucked that first half of the season where they would screw stuff up and you know started to swear again so early on the pod but he would just look at the team going what the fuck are you guys doing

like as they were coming back to the thing where he would turn to the crowd and he'd be like what the fuck oh my he looks like an angry dad right it's just so rare so it makes me wonder you know if this is what look there's not 30 email you dokas but you wonder if you know a younger team i think a lot of gms or ownerships would have gone, hey, we need somebody that's going to it's kid gloves, it's kid gloves. And, you know, unfortunately for Steven Silas was there before like his personality's more subdued and he's somebody who thought he was inheriting a completely

different team and then it turns, it's like Chauncey Billups, like, wait, what are we doing? So, you got to have the right guys to respond to and probably, you know, having some vets. Here's another thing I'm going to ask you because this to respond to it. And probably having some vets. Here's another thing I'm going to ask you, because this is part of it. I'm almost to the point where I don't know if there's a bad free agent signing anymore. With the short years.

But these aren't even that short for Van Vliet and Brooks. It's not like it's a Jabari Parker deal. But when I look at the cap space for the bad teams, because when you see the sticker shock of Van Vliet, you're like, what? And then you're like Dylan Brooks and people are making jokes about, Hey, learn Chinese buddy. It's like, or 80 million. I think this is kind of what it is now is that there's just going to be somebody who's a free agent. Who's maybe not even, you know,

a top 50 player in these bad teams are going to go. We just need a couple guys in here who have been playing in the league a bunch of years because you can't roll the ball out there with five 22-year-olds anymore. Are you trying to prepare Cerruti for when Orlando spends $130 million on Malik Monk? Is that what that was? This is just a neck massage? I thought the DeRozan contract, I was wrong about the DeRozan Bulls contract I was just wrong about it okay and now you go well like what's wrong

what are you doing if you're this terrible team and you're like what are we supposed to do keep the powder dry for an all-star I think where it goes wrong is when like the Spurs extend Zach Collins for $17 million a year. It's that kind of price range

that goes wrong. If I'm overpaying for a guy who's a top 80 guy in the league and can start a Kuzma, Jeremy Grant, that price might not be too high. If I get Jeremy Grant for five years, 160, it's like, oh man, that's too much money.

And then you think, well, he is one of the best 80 guys like, oh man, that's too much money. And then you think, well, he is like one of the best 80 guys in the league. Maybe that's worth it. From a Warriors, I mean, I'm sorry, from a Rockets big picture standpoint, they have this Jalen Green situation.

His last 12 games, he's 28 points a game. He's 52, 42, 80. Post-All-Star break, he's 24 a game. And there's a Shang-Goon piece of this where Shang-Goon, I think, had turned it. You would have said, hands down, is the best asset on this team. He's discount Jokic. Love this guy.

But then the team kind of falls into place as soon as he goes away in some ways. And you think like, now if we were going to play GM conciliary later with another team, but if we were GM conciliary for the Rockets, they're like, hey man, do you think we should just make Jabari a five? Do you think we should shop Shangoon this summer? I think we would at least say, yeah, let's at least talk this out.

Let's look at the, let's do the pros and cons of this whole thing, because maybe this is the team you should be. You have so many athletes, you have so many scores. Maybe you need space. Like maybe you just need space and athleticism. Maybe that Shangoon guy is weighing you down a little bit. I would at least want to have the combo.

Yeah. I thought about that a lot. The last couple of days, like with Cleveland and going, I mean, they a lot the last couple days like with Cleveland and going, I mean, they got destroyed today by Miami team that hasn't been great offensively and that was just an ass kicking. So

you're like, okay, what if they took Mobley out like 4 50 into the game, right? And then they get the shooters out there and you're like, okay, the offense is slowing a little bit and granted Mobley just came back, so I have no idea what the rotation is going to be there but this isn't even, it's kind of

back to like the Jalen Green thing of like, okay, what do we have? What do we have? And then you start to look at Cleveland and you go, would they get weird this summer? Would they get weird about like, do we have to figure ourselves out here if we want to keep Mitchell or if we decide like we're so worried

about Mitchell and Garland so like it just it plays back into your Sengoon point about first of all I'd have to see more than not even a full month of this okay so maybe we should bring yeah could you keep this going right so let's let's see how it goes I don't know a few more games for this but But it would have seemed inconceivable three weeks ago to even have the combo. Don't you think it still might be though? Well,

the fear would be if he is on a Jokic pad, there's no way. I just, I guess it depends what kind of team you are because the kind of player he is, what kind of team makes sense to put around somebody like that? And you have all these different assets that I think we both really like. What's the best version of all those assets together? That would be my question because I really do like when Jabari, when they go a little smaller with Jabari at the five,

there's only what, five guys in the league. Maybe you don't want him defending against, but you know, if he's your defensive big, how many times are you really going to, like I watched Chet today just get annihilated by Giannis. And I think Chet's really good, but there's going to be some teams that are just like, it doesn't really matter who your center is.

So. I still want the option. And I'm a big Jock Landell guy. You know, he's a rotational big. He just is. He's been good lately too. For whatever reason.

You like him more than Tice, right? Yeah, he gets hit in the face way less. So from a future standpoint, they have Shangoon and Green and Jabari and Thompson and Whitmore and Eason. Six young dudes. They also have Van Blee and Brooks. They have Steven Adams coming back.

Your guy, Jeff Green, who they can opt in on another contract. Then they have the top eight Nets pick this year. It will be somewhere in the top eight. They also have the 26 Nets pick and they have two swaps in 25 and 27. And they have some expirings if they want to get kooky this summer. This team is in awesome shape, which leads us to the retradables because we got to revisit the heart of trade. Today's retradable is brought to you by Nissan SUV. If you ever wonder what's around the next corner, what happens when you push further, what's over the horizon, you need a Nissan SUV. The 2024 range includes the Nissan Rogue with class exclusive built in Google, the Pathfinder and the Armada. Go find your next adventure with the Nissan SUV. Learn more at nissanusa.com. So here was that hard to trade.

January, 2021. Brooklyn gets James Harden. Cleveland gets Jared Allen. Indy gets Karis LeVert. Houston gets Oladipo. They get some expirings. They get two swaps in 21 and 23 that we enjoyed a great deal. They were not exercised. They got Brooklyn's 22 pick, which became Terry Eason, number 17. They got Cleveland's

22 pick, which was number 24, Marshawn Beauchamp, which they used to get rid of PJ Tucker. They still have two swaps and two firsts unprotected. So this trade hasn't even really blossomed for them yet. And the big mistake, I guess, would be just that they threw Jared Allen in there. I think that wasn't great. But for the most part, I was in the moment saying, I can't believe they're not trying to get Ben Simmons for Harden. I just think he's the best asset. Think about that. January 2021, Ben Simmons versus now he's the worst asset in the league. Thank God they didn't listen to me.

When you think back at that trade, what do you think? I always was like, wait, Cleveland ended up with Jared Allen in all this? Because I was looking at it again on Basketball Reference. I'm like, am I missing something? There was a first that they moved out later on and then they ended up with Laverde again uh which was which is interesting but i just thought it

was like a great move by colby altman to just be involved in it because i was going through some of the trades today that because we have all of this protected unprotected stuff that i know you want to get to a little bit later and it's yeah so much traffic, man, trying to source through it all. Or it's like, no, Oklahoma City has four picks, but actually they have two picks, but they might only get one pick. And if that doesn't convey, then it actually never conveys.

And you're like, what is going on? Anyway, the point is that I just think the best GMs are like, what are you guys doing? What's going on? You need another landing spot. They needed a landing spot for Allen and one more pick for the trade. Cleveland raised their hand. They're like, we're right here. What do you need

another pick? Done. Brooklyn's looking at it from, we're adding Harden to this group, so Jared Allen is as much of a priority where, looking back on it, considering what went out for Jared Allen versus what you would get for him now incoming.

I know he's not perfect, but I really like Jared Allen. Let's be meaner about this because part of it was they wanted to keep DeAndre Jordan on Brooklyn because he was friends with those guys. And what they should have done is put DeAndre Jordan in the trade because the salary

would have worked the same way. But it's, you know, those guys... Cleveland, I don't know because the salary would have worked the same way. But it's, you know, they... But would Cleveland... Cleveland, I don't know what happens. What's Cleveland's... I just would have rather kept Jared Allen if I was trying to win the title versus Jordan,

who I don't think had been relevant for at least two years before that. What was the last good... What was it on the Knicks when he had that little Knicks free agent run? It's a while ago. It's a tough one. But I think to your other point, though, like I would ask you this,

is just how quickly, like whenever you're watching a player and it's not working out, like how rapidly the value can change for a player in 12 months. You know, the Ben Simmons thing, it's not like, oh, it's three years later. This is too long. Cause it immediately was, was just something that the next time he was moved. I mean, think about it from like,

think about how Philly salvage an impossible situation. And the nets are like, you know, could we've done better than this? Yes. Simmons was on par as an asset with Halliburton and Heald together at that time. And then it flipped. That's it for the Retradables.

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First online real money wager. Only $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. So there's a warrior's piece of this too. I can't believe I brought up, is it time to start thinking about maybe

trading Shingun? No, no, we, I just wanted to talk it out. I didn't think it was a good idea. I just wanted to have the conversation over some appetizers. Uh, you know what I hear? Here's what I think we'll learn is that they have this note they can play now when he comes back, but I'd still rather have a big that I can run my offense. Like all the great things that Shingun does. Like, I just feel like there's too many teams, especially in the West where it's like, do you even have another option based on the matchup?

And you know, it's to your okay. C point, which I'm sure we'll get to today. Cause Milwaukee just swallowed them up. Well, if you're the rockets, you're thinking,

well, this is great now because we can play this style, the non-Shen Goon style, and then we can play with the Shen Goon style depending on who we're playing. So, yeah. But I do wonder with all the picks they have, is there some sort of godfather move? Because we know that NBA players like living in Houston. This has been a disaster for the Warriors.

Where they're now 12, I think 12 and nine in their last 21 games in their last 20 before today, they were at 19th in net rating. Curry has not had a good March since he came back. And even though they're getting, I think, I think Kaminga has outkicked his coverage this year. Would you agree? Definitely getting a bigger Kaminga season than we ever expected. Yeah. Pod Zemsky, no question has been better than they ever could have expected. And Jackson Davis has been better than they ever could have expected. And this team is still barely 500. And they're paying, I think it's one of the four most expensive rosters in the league.

It's Curry at age 35, not a lot of great Curryers left. And this is, it's panic time. I was thinking they could get the nine seed and host the play-in game against the Lakers. And now you have the Rockets just coming on like a freight train. And you have an old team in the Lakers, you have an old team in the Warriors where just enough games left that if one of the old guys gets hurt and misses a week, the Rockets can pass either of those teams.

There was this stretch there where Golden State had put together a pretty good record. Yeah. And I don't know, was it 13-6 over that time? I have to look it up again. With good numbers. And then rotation was figuring itself out. Like, Looney's not part of the rotation. There were times there where other guys were out where I'm like,

how many touches is Sharish going to get? What's going on here? You get GP2 back. Pajemski's terrific just because he can play without having the ball, because just the rebounding and all the hustle stuff. And, you know, he's a smart player. And then finally, Kaminga kind of like, like, oh, wait, like, this is the reason

why you're taking this guy in the top 10. But Curry, prior to today, like over a 14-game stretch, his shooting numbers were terrible by his standards. He was a little better today. Clay looked like he was, you know, like he couldn't have continued to be that bad. I just refuse to believe, like, all of a sudden, Clay Thompson's just going to suck at shooting.

And they ran the last play for him tonight, and Curry was kind of the decoy on that, but it was still kind of a tough look. But, you know, when I look at today, they don't seem to have the second guy they can trust offensively. You just leave Curry in these spots. So I think the important thing

about the Houston part of this is if you look at the remaining strength of schedule, Golden State has the easier schedule. 22nd, toughest. Houston's 11th toughest. Golden State, those back out on the road again for four, they come back and play Dallas,

and then they go back to Texas for a couple. So this is still a tougher stretch for an older team with a lot of travel, even though it's an easier schedule on paper than what Houston faces. I don't love the new rules for them either. I think they've been a new rules casually because teams are just where you can be more physical with Steph.

And then they played Minnesota today. And that's, I think it just a Minnesota swept them this year. That's a worst case scenario team for them. They just have multiple six, five, six, eight,

six, seven guys that they can throw at him and just bother him, push him around. I thought the Pacers' loss on Friday night was pretty alarming. That was just a game I thought the Warriors were going to win, especially because Halliburton hadn't been playing that well. And it just seems like you're home, it's Friday night,

you're going to get this one. And Steph sucked. He was 6'4 for 18 from 3. It was just weird. Indiana got Indiana was 42% from 3, but just got shots that they liked the whole game. Did you watch that game?

I didn't catch all that one because I was at the tournament on Friday. Yeah, it just was a pretty convincing Indy win. And that was when I think every... Raheem did a thing this weekend about how Houston was plus 800 to make the play-in,

which are crazy odds. And this was before all the stuff that happened the last two days. But yeah, something seems amiss. And it made me... I was watching it today and I was just thinking like, I've been here before with great teams, right? Where you kind of know they don't have it anymore.

And I feel the same about the Lakers too. Not that the Lakers were a great team, but it's just so hard for them to be good. Like the Warriors, when they're playing a team like Minnesota, they just need Steph to be awesome basically. And when the Lakers are playing any good team, they kind of just need LeBron to be awesome

or they need some crazy D'Angelo Russell game. It's not, when you look at like the ease of like a team like the Celtics, like a younger team or like what the Bucks are starting to put together now, where the infrastructure of the team, you could just be up 15, you could be up 18.

And I think it's really hard for these older teams to do it. The league's also way better. But I think with the Warriors, what do you do if you don't make the playoffs this year? You don't make the play-in. If you're an 11 seed, what do you do? What are they if they're a 10 seed or a 9

seed anyway? It's still the same. But you could at least say, all right, we just wanted to get in the tournament and now we're in it. Then you're lying to yourself a little bit. Because if they're the 11th seed and they miss it by a game, oh, now we have to tear it down. But if you're the 9th seed and

say you make it losing 1-8 to Denver or OKC or Minneapolis. What are you tearing down though? I should say Minnesota. I don't know. I just said that. Because you got Clay and Chris Paul as expiring contracts. No, I'm telling you that the to-do list is the same. It doesn't matter if they're officially a playoff team or outside of the playoffs.

So you're saying this is a done deal. This is a rebuild after the season either way. Well, I don't know that it's a rebuild. I just, I guess what I'm asking you is like, are you doing something where, you know, the NCAA tournament, the guy will be like, yeah, I made it, you know, it's a middling power five program. Like, oh, we've been to the tournament five of the last eight years.

It's like, okay, but you didn't, like, what are you talking about? Well, I guess I'm saying more. I'm confused say say what you're saying because i don't i don't think i understand so the warriors had the season from hell right dream on how many games did he get suspended for i think he missed like being 10 10 plus for the second one drama the whole first two months of the year right they lost chris paul for a bunch of time wiggins disappeared for a bunch of time. Wiggins disappeared for a bunch of time. Curry just got hurt. And you're thinking if you can get to 45 wins and you're the nine seed, you could talk yourself into like, all right, this was the season from hell, but we're here. All of our guys are healthy. Let's go. But all their guys have been pretty healthy for all of March and they seem like

they're going the other way. And I think that would be more alarming to me. The point of the season where I would have thought, all right, all this shit's behind us. We're here. Chris Paul's back. We got our rookies of taste. Let's go. Let's make a run. And they're going the opposite way. So if I'm looking at that, if I'm writing the checks, I'm like, what am I writing the checks for? Maybe we should rebuild. Maybe this is just, we'll ride out Curry for the next five, six years. We'll let Clay go or we'll try to get him at a cheap price.

We'll let Chris go. I'm not spending $300 million on my roster every year anymore. We're moving into a different phase of the Warriors. I don't think they were there even thinking about that until probably today. I guess what I was saying, because now I'm on the same page, is that even if you had lost a competitive first round playoff, I don't think it really changes who you're sealing as a team for 24-25 with this roster. The biggest problem is you just wouldn't, like Steph's gone through his slump and he has to be normal Steph with this group offensively because Wiggins will still disappear.

You know, Draymond's a differential player. Clay, it felt better. He wasn't good tonight. You know, CP got it going a little bit when he was hunting his mid-range. Like you could just see with him going, all right, I need to be more aggressive. But he had a wide open three late. He needed to take it. And then he kicked he was hunting his mid range. Like you could just see with him going, all right, I need to be more aggressive, but he had a wide open three late. He needed to take it. And then he kicked it.

He swung it. Um, and as great as the Jackson Davis story has been that you found this rotational guy so late in the draft, he just needs to be better with the ball in his hands. So I think they get stuck. I think they get stuck hoping Steph is going to save them. And there were games earlier in the year where I felt like just Steph took tougher

and tougher shots because he knew like, all right, we don't really have much of a chance. And I think Kerr's trying to manage Steph. He's sixth on the team in fourth quarter minutes since the All-Star break. He played less minutes than Clayton. He played 30. Yeah. So I imagine Kerr, you know, that's

always been, you know, it's changed a little bit, but the standards usually because they've been so good, he just comes in with six to go to close out the game. So I don't know if you should have brought him back in earlier tonight. I don't know. I'm not going to question Steve Kerr on that one. But I think the writing is kind of on the wall

for this team, even if they, with these younger players had put together a nice little run, get through the play-in, but I wasn't going to pick him to beat anybody in the 1A, 2, 7, right? No, we were pretty honest about that. I just thought they'd at least be fun and who the hell knows, and I think that window is closed now, too.

And it's supposed to. This is what happens. I guess, but when you're spending $300 million on your team, you kind of want to be one of the top 10 teams in a conference. You would think so, but it's also- This is pretty devastating. But that was what Lakeup was always about.

Nothing's going to get in the way. We're never going to worry about it. We're just going to go and go and go. And he kept all the pieces. And they felt like they had- I mean, they won a title two years ago. So for the most part, this has worked. By the way, they don't have their first round pick.

Top four protected going to Utah. So there's that too. Well, flipping it toward which West team would you want to be for the next six years, which would take us through the 2020s? I love that it was six years. Six years, 24 through 30. Would it have changed if it were only five years? I went six. I thought it was sexier as a tease. What's each pick?

We'll go in order. But who would you... You could be any West team. You could have their future for the next six years. Who would you pick? Okay, this isn't a draft. We're just going to

kind of go back and forth. No, we're just like... It's Denver. Jokic is 29. Murray's 27. Gordon's 28.'t a draft. We're just going to kind of go back and forth. It's Denver. Jokic is 29, Murray's 27, Gordon's 28, Michael Porter Jr.'s 25, and Jokic. And Jokic is going to age well. That was also my pick.

I'm signing up for Jokic, Murray, Aaron Gordon, and whatever they add to this team year to year, and I bet they'll be able to get some free agents who want to be part of this. Number two is where it gets interesting though. Who'd you have? Oklahoma City.

So they've got a top five player already in Shea. They have cap space, major cap space this summer, which is part of the Hayward thing. Yeah, we don't know, but they got to spend something. They have potentially 15 first-round picks.

It could be nine. It depends on the protections and how all this all plays out. The brilliance of some of the other stuff, and I was digging into it with Presti, is he'll lose some picks this year, but it's the 24 draft and they already have all these young guys. Like that sneaky

Dallas trade he did where he just gave away the pick they had, but all of a sudden now he can swap with them in 28. Yeah. I'll push that one back. If you're really into it, he's got between, I think, 21 and 27 second round picks. There's one year on the books now they have six

that are just theirs. There'll be six second round picks. I mean, again, I think people overrate those quite a bit. Those are the Henke stands that just love second rounders that wrote about it over and over again. I like Ant more, but I can't argue that he's a better statistical

player than SGA. So there you go. I had OKC third. Okay, make your number two case. I took San Antonio. They have all their own firsts. They have Atlanta's 25 and 27 unprotected first. They can swap with Boston in 28 and Dallas in 30.

They have some other picks too. But they also have Victor Wambayama, who I've been watching more San Antonio than I did in the first part of the year instead of just following Wemby on social media. I think the thing I like about him the most, other than the fact that he's a fucking alien, is seven foot five and,

you know, and he's has five plays a game that you're like, I've probably never seen that before. He's got like a really nasty side to him. He's really competitive. I feel like the guy hates losing. It's like, this is,

this is probably like the worst year of his life. It fucking drives him crazy to be on a bad team with teammates that aren't very good. And if they can figure out how to put a good enough team around him, I would just rather have that than whatever OKC comes up with. Because I don't know how you're going to stop this guy. This is the worst he's ever going to be right now. And he's like 22, 12, and six blocks. This is like the fucking basement of where we are with

this and the thing that i was most worried about with him was you know the health like when you watch even yao in the early years you're like oh man i don't love how he runs you watch some of the big guys like i don't love that he i i like the way he moves i don't I feel like he's going to have... I'm going to knock on wood. I feel like he's going to have a nice little run here where... I don't know. I don't know why I trust it. Are you trying to guarantee a non-injury stretch?

I'm not trying to guarantee anything. I just... Some people are lighter on their feet than others. And I think he's surprisingly light on his feet for how fucking tall he is. I don't really fully understand it, but he's just very comfortable and coordinated and moves at a certain pace that he's not clumsy at all. Like at all. So I would bet on him second over OKC. Him and the picks and whatever they could potentially do it. But it's like a 2A, 2B thing for me. I think he made a good case with OKC. Because OKC, you have

SGA, you have Jalen Williams, you have Chet, and they're all young and on the way up. I'm not positive that team's going to spend money. I'm still dubious of that part. What happens when you actually have to keep dudes together and have a $220 million payroll. We have, we've just never seen them do it. But they have to kind of do it though. Like this is the Orlando thing. Right. But you have to spend this money while you still have everybody on the rookie scale, other than SGA and some of the other contracts, but like Dort's at a really good number. So this is usually what you do is you

spend that now and then you worry about it later. I didn't like the trade deadline. We didn't like it when it happened. And Hayward to me looks like he's just on the other side of the mountain. I don't know how that was their trade. I just don't get it. Right. We didn't like it because they didn't go for Gafford and they were part of facilitating it but the hayward thing cleared up all the extension on mitch so and it wasn't working out like for whatever reason he just wasn't playing that well with him and he was basically like an afterthought so i thought it was just another way of being like hey what if there's somebody this summer that we can add that is in that 30 to 40 range.

I don't know who that player is. You worry about them getting in the way of what they do offensively and duplicating some of the stuff. But usually the teams, when they have this kind of talent with so much of it on rookie scales, they'll spend the money now and then kind of worry about it a little bit later. And they're going to be to the floor anyway. So the second apron, I'm not exactly saying that here.

I like the player part of this because I think there's probably a lot of people who would say, hey, give me the Thunder because of all the picks. It's like, first of all, I'll just take Jokic. Take the top three. You guys can figure out the rest. I have Denver,

San Antonio 2A, and OKC 2B basically. Who do you have as your third? I have Minnesota, San Antonio 2A, and OKC 2B, basically. Who do you have as your third? I had Minnesota. Hmm. Because it is enough players. I can't argue with it. Right. It's having...

Look, there's some bad money stuff coming at some point. Yeah. You wonder how that's going to go. Because when they redo Cat and Ant with Rudy's $47 million player option, they're going to be at like $47 million player option, uh, they're going to be at like 140 million. If you look at the estimates for three guys, we know how it's going to go.

Towns will be traded. Right. And all the, that's how it will eventually go. You know, this is the bigger part of like, okay, the Rudy thing has been awesome this year.

And you know, he was, he was incredible tonight. Now granted, it's an advantage for him, um, because of the lack year. And, you know, he was, he was incredible tonight. Now, granted, it's an advantage for him because of the lack of size. But, you know, he had a play where he, he basically helped off a Draymond on a Steph drive. So Steph kicked it back out to Draymond, who's taken more threes. And he found a way to recover to Draymond and still get out and contest it. Like give it a good, a good contest.

And I had to rewind it and be like, he was shading stuff on the drive and a guy that size turned back around to contest Draymond. The pick stuff is... Wait, hold on on Gobert. Yeah. Why can't Rudy win most improved? Because people... Maxie's the prohibitive favorite

right now. I don't know. Couldn't we have predicted that if Harden was going to get traded from Philadelphia and Maxie was going to have the ball all the time, his stats were probably going to be better. I know he's better, but is it dramatic or is it in line with a guy who averaged 20 points a year last year, who's now averaging 26. If we're going to talk most improved, you got to go into like what Jalen Green's been doing the last month of the season, or even something like Rudy, who seemed like his career was over and do an interview where he cries. Like, Kyle Anderson,

we fought. Now we high-five. You know. Kyle and I cried together. You have the voice over. It's like, by March of last year, Rudy knew he was the least cool player on the team. And now he's considered one of the coolest. And one friend downloaded

Babbel to speak his native tongue. Anyway uh i'm a kobe white guy i think was that a babble ad um yeah i think i think we had a babble sponsorship we did we had to take care of them so fando has fando has maxi minus 230 kobe white plus 160 who's another one kobe white was a bench guy last year now is he's this guy who runs offense, end of games. Other than his second year, he's been a bench player his whole career. And now he's started basically the whole season. He's averaging 20.

Granted, it's more shots, but when I watch him now... He's been 22 and 6 for four months now. Back to our patience theme. Yeah. Jalen Williams is like 100-1 and Kaminga is 100-1. I think it would have been funny to just put Gobert in there. But that's how dramatic it's been from last year to this year.

And I agree with you. The Warriors... And it's weird watching this version of Draymond too. Because you remember that early in the year of Minnesota-Golden State, they played and Golden State-Minnesota had a fight. I do remember that. It was 12 games, by the way, Draymond was out. And Doc said, Doc was on my pod and he was like, this is actually an important moment that

this happened because this means Golden State's afraid of Minnesota. Like you don't fight with a team unless you know, like they're on your corner now. And since then, now I think how the roles are reversed. They get swept for the series. You watch at the end of the game and they're all hugging each other. And it just feels like this version of the Warriors is done in a lot of ways. Did you ever ask him, is that why Kevin Johnson tried to take him out? Who was the guy who came off the bench in street clothes? Greg Anthony had a tight fit from structure.

It's an unbelievable fit. Anyway, you have Minnesota third and I support it because the Edwards piece, I had Minnesota fourth. So does that mean you had San Antonio fourth? Uh, you know, Houston fourth.

No, no. Uh, you know, I can't quit the Pelicans. Oh, the Pelicans fourth? Really?

The Pelicans fourth. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Over, so you don't have Wemba Yum in your top four for team you'd want to be for the next six years. I struggled with all the Texas teams. I wrote all three Texas teams down because I knew that the exercise, like if maybe not

you, but I thought if other people did this i think they would just fall so in love with oklahoma city's draft stockpile that they would just pick them first and i'm like yeah i don't really think that's the exercise like i feel bad leaving luca out yeah i'm trying to win titles right like i get luca and i can't i'm still going to name five teams ahead of them we're houston this has been fun but come on like i can't i can't put them fifth even if the cool part of them is you have all these young guys we all like, where it's like, what if one or two of them pop?

Where San Antonio feels like they have the one guy that's more valuable, clearly, than anybody in Houston. Luke is the better player than Wimbanyama today, but San Antonio probably says no for that trade, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I did the Pelicans because I like...

Now, granted, I really like what I've seen from them. I just... This has been an unbelievable Zion turnaround from where we were the in-season tournament in December where it felt like the national media was really focused

and he played like crap and he looked awful. And it was like, is this really how it's going to end? And he's responded big time. I know Ingram's out now. So, was like, is this really how it's going to end? And he's responded big time. I know Ingram's out now. So the problem is it's the injury history stuff with those guys that you could argue against me. They have a ton of picks. They have all this depth. They can play a bunch of different ways. And San Antonio still has so much work to do around Wimbanyama. But

this one I might be willing to be wrong on. The first three, I wasn't. I had Houston fifth. I had Minnesota fourth and Houston fifth because... So no New Orleans. I had New Orleans as a runner up at six because the thing that surprised me about New Orleans, and I really do like them, but I thought Houston versus New Orleans was a great argument. The picks that New Orleans has aren't as great as I think we felt they were going to be four or five years ago. Now they're going to probably punt on that Lakers pick for this year. Cause they have their choice at 24 or 25. You punt this year.

Cause the draft sucks. 25. Now you have your fingers crossed. Like, Hey, who knows? That's going to be the most loaded draft of the decade. Maybe we'll get lucky in some way.

Um, the Houston, I just like the guys on the team, and I love the Brooklyn picks. It's ironic how that played out, where now those Brooklyn picks look amazing. And you never, ever in a million years would have thought that. And Brooklyn took that big chance by trading Durant, hoping maybe the Phoenix picks would kind of cancel out the picks that they were losing to Houston. And they bet wrong.

That was a bet they're going to lose because I think anybody would rather have the Brooklyn picks than the Phoenix picks. Dallas, I couldn't get there because they just don't have a lot of outs with this roster. They are locked in now in all different ways. They've traded away a bunch of picks. They have losing swaps in three of the next couple years. They're tied to basically Luka and Kyrie and a bunch of role players. And unless Lively can turn into somebody awesome,

I don't really see how the ceiling goes up with this team unless Luka just goes bonkers. Well, I don't know. Is there another goes up with this team unless Luca just goes bonkers. Well, I don't know. Is there another level beyond who this guy is now? That's what I'm saying. Could he be a 40-10-10 guy? I don't know. I don't know if he could be any better.

And that's why I flirted with them ahead of New Orleans because Luca's healthy. But then I had to have assurances. Like what if I guarantee you two more stress-free Kyrie seasons? Does that change? Could I, is that something I could interest you in? I still would. I'm seventh in Utah.

I had eight just because of all the picks. We need to, we need to take a break. We'll come back and got to hit the Clippers. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention,

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nothing will. Get your ghost pepper sandwich today at Popeye's before it ghosts you for another year. I got chicken from Popeye's. All right, so we're doing a Best Defenders Alive draft in a little bit. Just wanted to tease that so people don't be like, oh, I'll just listen to half of the podcast and move on.

I went to Clippers Sixers today, a 1230 game, which 1230 Sunday in a half empty crypto staples, whatever the hell it's called now. You know, one team's not showing up. It's a coin flip. The Clippers were, I think, nine and a half point favorites, which is just nuts. Nobody should ever be a nine and a half point favorite in a 1230 Sunday crypto game. But Philly came out, made a bunch of shots, and the Clippers just look generally semi-lethargic. They really have over and over again over the last 20 games. They are 10 and 11 in their last 21. They were 10 and 10. They went 22 and five and they had 19 nine plus point wins in that 22 and five stretch. In their last 23 games, they have four nine plus wins. They were killing teams.

Now they just don't kill teams anymore. In their last 20 games for today, they were 19th in net rating. And this is no longer like a little bit of a skid. This is kind of, this is one fourth of the season now, Rosillo. What is this? What are we watching? Not the team that won 26 and five and destroyed Boston. Yeah. Teams in Boston was rested. And that at that time was as impressive as anything I've seen a team do for one night all season long. Although I put Milwaukee up there with what they did against Oklahoma City. But when you looked at how the Clippers have been playing, and the biggest thing that jumped out, I know we've talked about the game a few times,

is that was a staggering impression game. How did you feel when you watched that? I hope I don't see these guys in the finals because we're going to have trouble chasing everybody around. Just everybody locked in, in sync defensively. Then you start wondering, like, is Kawhi going to be first team? Like, does Kawhi get MVP votes?

Like, what's going on? And so, now they're 10 and 11 over this stretch. And the crazy thing in March, Bill, is PG's only missed one game. Kawhi's only missed one. Harden's only missed two.

And if you look at some of their normal stats, you're like, oh, all these guys are all right. Like, Kawhi's three-point shootings dipped here a bit after it looked like he was paying like... That was the only one I noticed was the Kawhi three-point down. Other than that, it seems okay. They don't play defense. That's the point. And I don't know if it's one of those regular season tricks

where this team has been around so long or at least the guys individually have been around so long where they're like, okay, we know what we can do over 30 games because we did it and now we don't care because their offense is okay since the All-Star break, but since that same timeline,

that's kind of how I sort it when I update these for every Sunday, they're 26 now in defense since the All-Star break and it shows. And with some teams that aren't trying anymore. I'll tell you, I sat in a suite tonight or today and was able were. I'll tell you, I sat in a suite tonight or today and

was able to watch them not run back on defense a bunch of times and jog back. I was like, oh my god. Fucking mail-in from the clips. So, okay, isn't that the question though? Which version are we going to fall for? This isn't James Harden's

history though. He's been the most reliable, competitive guy in the league. Expected more. Expected more from Kawhi. If it were a different team, I'd go, okay, I guess that was like the fluky. I didn't know what to do with Cleveland when they went 17-1 and they were missing the other

guys for a good chunk of that. And I was like, all right. And now you're like, all right, you know, we'll see how it plays out in the first round matchups. I don't know if I was more tricked by 26 and five or if I'm setting myself, if I write them off, if they

lose, the Pelicans are chasing them. Like, does it matter? Okay, so it's a four or five. It's New Orleans. Well, there's one, but one variable has changed though. New rules. New rules. bad for the Clippers. I would say their top three new rules, not great for a team. Half of James Harden's stuff doesn't work anymore.

And they're a little undersized anyway. Listen, I was saying this at the game and I said this to you the last time we talked about them and I really feel strongly about this. They miss Westbrook. Westbrook is really helpful for them. A game like today is the perfect example of where you need Westbrook. They're dead. Crowd's dead. They're down 10 early. And Westbrook would just come in and run up and down. He'd get rebounds. He'd one man fast break stuff. He'd do like the, you know, the dunk and then stare at the crowd thing.

And he just gave them an energy that when you watch these guys all together, when they don't have him, it's a pretty, pretty passive team. It's not like the most demonstrative group of personalities, you know? And Westbrook at least was the one, he was like the one crazy guy in your friend group. We're like, oh, we're bringing Bob out tonight. Oh, yeah. Bob's coming. Don't let him drive. Like, wait, why doesn't he have a credit card with him?

Bob's out of jail. Is that a prepaid MasterCard? Spare the thing. I completely agree with you. Thank you. You felt it today in person. I'm telling you. It was the classic Westbrook coming in

and just igniting the game. And they just didn't have him. Now, I don't know if he's going to solve all their defensive problems. And when I look at those numbers and when you watch them, like that game where they came back against Houston that first half,

I was like what is this a while ago but you're watching you're going what what are you guys doing and since they came back I don't know and I don't know if it's a team that's like hey we know what we can do we've already proved it and now we don't care

and it's the four or five so we're not really chasing anything we're not really avoiding or anything but I think they do care though. I think Ty Lue cares. He was really upset during that game today. He was really mad that they weren't playing well and playing hard. And he called a couple timeouts and he was doing like the pissed off Ty Lue thing.

Like he did not, I think he wants them to get going and it's just not happening. Okay, so would you pick the Pelicans in the first round? Over the Clippers? I think I would. Because I've watched them with size and energy and effort, you know, kind of pull away some of the Clippers advantages. I think I would take them. What would you do? Right now? Yeah, I would. I would. I guess it depends

on when Ingram comes back, but I assume he'll be back by the time we get to the playoffs. Right? It's supposed to be re-evaluated, so that can always scare you a little bit. They've got the wing defenders, or at least they've got the size. If you're in this kind of

Zion, it just changes everything for the Pelicans. They've done things where they're going to play larry nance at center it looks like a little bit more if they feel like that's a better matchup for them so if the clippers think that they're going to solve it by going small against and the pelicans may be like cool let's have larry nance around out there at the five the whole time and then that means that everything's clear instead of just having that big body. I mean, I imagine if they, they're going to try both things like, Hey, let's have just a big body just around the rim, uh,

to prevent some of the stuff from Zion. Because when you go small against Zion, you know, now all of a sudden you're like, okay, who the hell is supposed to stop any of this stuff? But the Trey Murphy thing has been huge for him. the,

the Ingram thing definitely scares me. But as I remind myself and the listeners all the time, all the times the regular season can kind of trick you because you know how different it is. I don't know which version of the Clippers to fall for. Also, the Pelicans are fucking annoying

to play. In a seven-game series, that's Alvarado. They'll be like, hey, every time you're in, just bug the fucking shit out of James Harden. He's like, done. Got it. I'll go 94-3 with them. I'll try to take annoying, dumb charges against them.

Najee Marshall. I really liked how the Pelicans played against Miami the other night where they'd had an incident the last time. Butler talked some shit after, and the Pelicans waxed them on friday and then talked shit after and this was the day after they lost to orlando um but they uh they even their social media account was talking shit to miami but i i i think that team's got a little juice i feel the same about the rockets it was like what we

were talking about earlier um another team that has some juice. We're ready to believe in the Bucs yet, at least as the second best team in the East? Well, they're definitely the second best team and they're probably closer to Boston than the standings would say. And Dame wasn't even good today. They were so good defensively today. You're giving me the definitely the best,

second best team in the league? Because Cleveland would have a case. And they've been right there all year with way more injuries. I'd pick Milwaukee. It's always so funny when it's five or six. Like you say five,

you're like, whoa, smoking them. And then it's six. It's like, oh, a tight, tight series. I would pick Milwaukee with a lot of confidence because I'm not sure if Cleveland knows exactly

what they're supposed to be. And I know Mitchell is out with the nasal fracture and apparently there's a knee contusion on top of that as well. So you've got to worry about that. But they're going to be Cleveland's really going into the playoffs here, which feels like very little time to actually know what they're supposed to be. And they may abandon some things in the playoffs quickly. Milwaukee has when I go through the starting five stuff,

and I know we touched on it last week, but it just depends on kind of how you sort it. But if you go with the most minutes played five-man group, Milwaukee starters are, I think, better than any starters technically. But then you can change it to like, okay, but what if a team's played with these five, like 200 minutes, 300 minutes? Like, it's crazy. I think this is right. Going into today, Miami's most consistent five guys together had played 79 minutes. And I was like, how is that even possible?

I mean, they're just a mess on offense when you talk about being tricked again from the regular season into the playoffs. But yeah, I don't have any concern. Look, Dame wasn't even good tonight and it didn't matter. They housed them in another Oklahoma City rebounding night, even though they've been better rebounding since the All-Star break from some of the dismal numbers

comparison over the entire season. I think Milwaukee was plus 15 by the time when the game was over with four minutes to go. I was like, let me check this. And it was plus 15. OKC is in a hole now where they play Minnesota, Denver, Milwaukee, or Boston. They basically are prisoners of whether they made threes or not.

They haven't, there's, they're just not winning unless they shoot like 40% from three. Like they didn't make threes today. They're not, they have no chance against a team with real size. If they're not making threes, there's no plan B. Milwaukee did about as good of a job of limiting SGA as I've seen this year, too. He did not have a good game. When I looked at it, because I was watching both games at the same time, let me double check here. Yeah, they held Shada.

I mean, he was 5 of 12, but before that was worse, and he took only three free throws. And he just couldn't get to his spots. And he took only three free throws. And he just couldn't get to spots. And he loves to live in the paint and around the key. And that's one place where Milwaukee's got a lot of size to throw at him. It was not an encouraging game if you're buying a OKC stock. It also reinforced the possibilities of Denver is now in the lead by a half game. Minnesota is a game back.

And Denver getting the one seed, you know, home court throughout the playoffs, basically, until they get to the finals. Meanwhile, Milwaukee looks like they're going to get the two seed now, which is almost definitely going to be Miami versus Philly in the 7-8 game. Want to do an ESPN segment? Can we just touch on that Oklahoma City does have the season series 3-1 against Denver? So Denver has to beat them by a game.

Right. So that's why when you look at the standings, they had the same record. They had the tiebreaker as the one seed. Jokic did miss one of those. So I'm not going to sit here and say, hey, they're definitely better than Denver, but I just think it's at least... Because I think you and I are guilty of kind of writing them off in certain matchups

against all this size, because we've talked about it so much. I'm super guilty. I don't see it. I don't see it in a seven-game series. I don't think they have enough size. I don't. There's another thing they do, because I was trying to find more Clippers reasons and if you look at contested

shots and then closeouts and then open and then wide open. Wide open is known within 10 feet of you and then completely uncontested is like a range of 4 to 6 feet. It's closest defender and it's all the tracking stuff they use. Oklahoma City is like

the best in the league. They find ways to get more open shots because you have to figure out a way to build the wall against sga um he could be another one with the new rules where you go wait is he gonna because i think he was always a little craftier getting free throws because once you get a guy up in the air the ref's never going to get the defender that, even if you're initiating the contact. But when I looked at the Clippers, it depends on which one you look at, but they, in one of those categories, had the least wide-open attempts of anybody. But with Oklahoma City, I wonder, in the playoffs, does that mean teams are just going to close out that much harder? So some of those, does that tick down? Are they rolling through everybody in the regular season

with all this great shooting and this awesome offense around SGA? Like, will that end up becoming something they can't bank as much because guys just try that much harder to go out and contest after they help off a drive? Here's the other thing I'd worry about if I was them. Shays played 68 games. Jalen Williams, 62. Chet, 69. Josh G Jayden Williams, 62. Chet, 69.

Josh Giddey, 68. Dort, 67. Isaiah Joe, 65. Wallace, 69. Teams like Ben, unbelievably, incredibly healthy all year. Right? So whatever their record is right now,

which is 49 and 21. Great stuff. But with the best health situation of anyone in the league, it's a little like what happened with Sacramento last year. Remember? Sacramento, I think just, if I remember this correct, I think Sacramento was pretty healthy last year. I think they're fine.

They played the most minutes of anybody. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes that's worth five, six games, you know. We gotta take a break. When we come back, I am throwing a hacky ESPN segment at you, and then we're going to do our all-defense draft. These small business go together like... TD's small business account managers have

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with one of our advisors. Upper Canada College inspires boys from senior kindergarten to year 12 to find their passions and realize their potential. An IB World School, UCC offers a supportive environment, cutting-edge facilities, and a best in Canada financial assistance program. UCC, a place where tradition, excellence, and innovation meet. Learn more at our open house events on October 15th and 16th. Register now at causeandeffect.ucc.on.ca. All right, hack ESPN segment time. If you're the Milwaukee Bucks, are you more afraid in the first round of the Miami Heat,

the team that beat you last year, or the Philadelphia 76ers with the rested and healthy Joel Embiid? Ryan, who do you got? All right. I told myself I would never do this again, but I think I'm going to do it again. Uh-oh.

What is it? You going against Miami? Yeah, I'd still rather play that offense than Embiid. Right? If you have any kind of personal pride, if you have anything in you, you would want to play Miami again and be like, okay,

we need to get back at these guys. I mean, that might be the most motivation any team could have in a potential first round matchup. I know Thanasis wants another crack at him. I don't know what I'm getting from Embiid, but everyone I've talked to about this who knows anything about anything, it was like, yeah, he's going to be fine.

It's a six to eight week injury or six, seven weeks, whatever it was. And he's practicing and he's going to be back. And now we have Buddy Heald and we have Campaign and we have, who's the other guy they added? Then they had a third guy, just Buddy Heald and Campaign, Kyle Lowry. Kyle Lowry. So we're a little better than when he left. And by the way, when he left, we were number one in net rating And we were like 15, 16 games over 500. So yeah, don't count us out yet. Because I did a segment on Thursday in the pod about like, would you just, if Embiid's not 100% healthy,

should you just shut him down? And the Sixers side is like, look, he's recovering from an injury, but he's going to be recovered when we bring him back. So I wouldn't shut him down because I would, because of his injury history, I'd go, okay, he's healthy. You get a chance to go into the playoffs and adding the pieces that you mentioned when we were getting ready for a defensive draft. I did notice that preseason odds listed campaign is a potential defensive player of the year option at plus 4,000. I was surprised he was even on the list. Did you put wood on that one or no? I couldn't. I was going back, getting ready for the defensive

team draft, and I'm like, wait. Are you serious? Like, why was he even on this list? And some book had him listed. Maybe that's something I don't understand. Do you think I've earned enough weight to make the case against Miami, considering I'm the most afraid person of them?

Well, if it's stats, I don't think they matter. I mean, Hero hasn't been playing and it's desperate that they get him back. They started Patty Mills and Jovich again today. As much as I love Jovich's ceiling as a big guy who can pass, I don't know what the latest numbers were. And they were awesome today, by the way. I mean, they

absolutely put it on Cleveland, but they've been basically a 500 team since the break. I mean, they absolutely put it on Cleveland, but they've been basically a 500 team since the break. So are they just tricking us all again and they're going to be offensive? I mean, is Caleb Martin going to turn into Durant again for the Eastern Conference Finals? So that would be the case against Miami would be, are they getting that Caleb Martin

from the Eastern Finals again? The second piece would be Rozier with a lot of weight on him. We haven't seen him in a playoff series really since 2018. Let me read you... And Butler turns into Jordan. Yeah, will that ever happen again? Right. Let me read

you Jaquez. Three-point shooting by the month. Starting in October. 37.5. Nice. 39.2 in November. Pretty good. We dipped a little in December, 32.4. Not great. Oh no, we're still going down 25.9 in January. We're not going to get worse than that, right? Oh, I guess we are. February, 20% from three. And this month he is 30%. This is somebody that a couple months ago I think we felt like

holy shit, what an asset this guy's... And he's still a good bench player and he's had a really good rookie season but I still wonder with them who's their five going to be? Because the East is much better than it was last year. Celtics are much better.

Milwaukee is going to be healthy and Giannis won't have fallen on his, broken his back basically, but in the first game of the series. I think Middleton looks good, by the way. Whatever they did getting him back to recovery,

and I know Doc mentioned on the broadcast today kind of kidding around being like he must have been playing in pickup games. Yeah. Because there was a matchup earlier this year

where I watched him and was like, I don't think he's moving all that well. So I didn't know what to expect. And it just like from a movement standpoint, yeah, we totally agree. Keep going. You want to stay on Hot Cats? Because I'm going to share something with you. I just don't know who

their finishing five is at this point. Because they've been all over the map with their lineups and I don't know where they're going to land. Especially when we haven't seen Hero in a while. From a shot creation standpoint, Hero, even though that's the weird byproduct of last year, where it was like, was the dirty little secret that they were actually so much better

defensively because they didn't have a hero. But I also thought you got like incredible kind of out of character offensive stretches from players. Um, when you go back to those Caleb Martin game logs, the playoff show, like what was this? And then as soon as the NBA final started,

he was, he was like the worst version of him. Yeah. So there's that. But I, I'doff show, like, what was this? And then as soon as the NBA finals started, he was like the worst version of him. So there's that. But I have to think, like, Hero had so many times this year where I watch him and I'm like, man, he is good. He's really good at getting his stuff on his own. And to survive in the

playoffs, you're going to need that when Butler's not getting calls or there was a play against Herb Jones or Herb Jones just was like, I'm not going up in the air against you, dude. I know everybody does it and you kind of have that second pump off the first one that gets everybody. I'm not falling for it. Great advanced

scouting work by Herb Jones and he blocked Butler on like a fadeaway. Granny's not going to have to worry about Herb Jones unless we're the NBA finals again and we're all sitting here eating our words with Miami, but there's no Miami stat. There's no Miami stat, though, that you go, okay,

well, this is a bad stat, so now I don't think they're going to be good. I mean, that's what I was doing last year. I was like, hey, this offense is terrible. Give me a break. This isn't going to happen. And hell, they almost didn't even get out of the playing game part of it, but you have to figure it's hero, Bam Butler. I don't know if you can go Rozier, Caleb. Is that the five?

I think that's the five. And is that enough size against Milwaukee and against Boston? It isn't. And they don't really have any other options. And Thomas Bryant, who's out there chucking threes today. And the Hawkins point that I think is worth bringing back up. This is why he lasted this long in the draft. Okay.

Four years at UCLA. He only shot it. Well, once one season from three. So Miami saw stuff that other teams didn't. But when I was talking to other teams, you know, you can go through all the guys and you're like,

I don't really know what he is. Like, is he going to be able to do some of this kind of old man post-up stuff? Or is he going to, you know, he's not a great athlete. It doesn't really shoot it that well. Like,

what is he? He's going to be a decade long NBA player. Like he absolutely is. He's going to be, but the shooting decline is alarming because there was more samples of, of him throughout his career, not being a three point. If he was 37, 38% from three, then he goes a lot higher. Yeah. All right, it's time. We're doing a defense draft and we're stealing a page

from Sean Fennessey's Big Picture Padme and does the movie drafts. We have positions. Russo and I are just going to draft the team. You have to draft the center. You have to draft two forwards. You have to draft two guards. You have to draft a six man. You have to draft a center. You have to draft two forwards. You have to draft two guards. You have to draft a six man and you have to draft a white guy and you can draft them in any order.

So if you, with the first pick in the draft, if you wanted to take the white guy and just get them off the board. So, cause you, you feel like there's levels of white guys and you're like, I want to get this white guy right now. I don't want Bill to get him. You can take that with your first pick. So I'm going to give you the first pick because you're the guest. I appreciate that, Bill. Yeah, it's a really good point because I was prepping for my 18th annual fantasy draft where I do the solo show and I make the poor audience have to listen to that monstrosity as I go 26 rounds deep or so. I was doing a little prep, and I went, ooh, might want to take a second baseman a little higher than he's going

because I'm worried about the depth. So in this case, it could be the white defender because I just don't know how much depth is there. But I think I'll get my guy if you don't take him. All right, so I have the first pick. This does not mean... I'm going to do this in honor of Saruti watching Jonathan Isaac just wreck games.

I'm going to take him as my sixth man. God damn it. I know. Were you going to take him first? I was. I was going to take him first. How crazy is that? We both had the same first pick

and it was a guy who plays 15 minutes a game. I said to Cerruti on Thursday night that it was, it was what I imagined if Bill Russell came from the 1960s in a time machine

and just guarded Zion for 15 minutes. This is what Isaac looked like on Thursday night. All right, so you have Isaac. He had 25 in the loss against Sacramento. That was a good one for Sacramento.

See, the draft's already gotten hard because there's so many guards. I'm going to take Herb Jones as a forward. Excellent pick. Thanks. I'm just continually... Herb Jones as a forward. Excellent pick. Thanks. I'm just continually... He has these little plays during the game

that aren't things that you'll see on Twitter. But it'll be plays like somebody will inbound the ball. It'll be five seconds left on the shot clock. The ball will be out of bounds. And somebody will throw it in to somebody 25 feet from the basket. And Herb Jones will know, oh, this guy has four seconds to take

a shot to get a three off. And he's going to do some sort of up fake and then shoot it. I'm not going to fall for the up fake. And he's going to know that I'm going to challenge. And the guy will just be like frozen for four of the five seconds. And then he'll finally throw it off the shot clock because Herb Jones just kind of knows what the dude is going to do. I'm constantly in love with that guy as a role player, as a defender, as just a weapon. Like I, in the playoffs, I feel like he's going to be a 35 minute a game guy, Rosillo. I love him. Love him.

I mean, the Paul George block alone, that block doesn't happen in NBA games. I don't know if I already talked about it with you. I probably talked about it on my

podcast. I'm stuttering now because I'm still so shook by it. But somebody at Paul George's height, wide open three

at the top of the key, that shot doesn't get blocked. Right. It doesn't get blocked like that. And he flew out,

contested it, and blocked it. Like nobody ever thinks, like you would just reset it, dribble, whatever. So George flew out, contested, and blocked it. Nobody ever thinks. You would just reset it, dribble, whatever. So George is like, I got this. And he didn't. Okay, great pick. I think some people would be confused by going,

wait a minute, how's Rudy Gobert? How's Rosillo's guy? Did you see the highlight the other day of two guys declining invitations to layups? How are you not doing this? But where's the lack of depth? Where do I need to go? I can't believe Isaac's gone.

I'm going to stay in Orlando. I'm taking Jalen Suggs. He was the other one I was looking at. It's a great pick. Can he win Defensive Player of the year for you he won't but let's say he won would you be upset about it

not watching him snake through screens but I just don't know how any card could ever be as valuable as somebody at the rim I just don't think you can be and that's why I still don't think Marcus Smart should have won that's fine I'm glad Marcus won I think I swung think Marcus Smart should have won. That's fine.

I'm glad Marcus won. I think I swung the momentum that year. I did the first Why Can't Marcus Smart Win the Defensive Player of the Year segment. You were the first? I got the boat going. Some people hopped on and then we took off for Defensive Player of the Year Island. I'm taking

Victor Wembanyama at center. Okay, no problem. Because he's now routinely blocking six to eight blocks a game. Let's see here. I feel like you're pulling my trap. The problem with these segments is we're both competitive and there's just long stretches of silence

as we try to figure out the best team possible. So I apologize to the listeners. This is why I've been on one movie draft with Sean and I was terrible at it because I got too competitive. No, no, that's fine. I just didn't contribute to the podcast for like 10 minute stretches. No, we're

okay because I'm just looking at my depth. so far you have Suggs and Isaac and I have Wemby and Herb Jones this is a battle yeah but I think if I play my cards right I'm going to be in good shape I'm going to take Drew Holiday okay

now did you see that clip that made the rounds last week of him doing like four different things inside of the same possession? Yes. Okay. I sure did.

I think because they've been so good this year that you haven't had to see drew play like some of the on the ball stuff as intensely as he has at other moments. But you know, that was the granted there's a lot more goes into who you're voting for with all this stuff in that clip but like seeing that clip in the brilliance of what he does and the different times he's been asked to take on centers i just think he's an incredible weapon at that position that you know that's why everybody always loves having this guy on the roster. I love him.

Part of the reason this team is going to end up with like 65 to 66 wins is because all he wants to do is win games. He could care less how many shots he gets. It's one of the many reasons. The shots, right. He just doesn't care. Yeah. Yeah.

He doesn't care. He just wants to help out and do winning stuff. All right. Well. yeah yeah he doesn't care he just wants to help out and do winning stuff all right well i'm gonna take yannis at my other forward spot yannis always gets overlooked in this all defense stuff i i would say worst case scenario if he's, he's one of the best four or five defensive players in the league year after year after year. Doesn't really get the four blocks a game, but teams are afraid of him.

Nobody likes to drive and see him. He's incredible in transition and he's got us. And by the way, when he's showing on his, it's not like that many people are ever switching into him, but nobody's like, oh, cool. I'm going to dribble like this guy now. Right. I'm really glad you did that.

I thought you were going to fall into my trap. Now the momentum may have swung the other way with that pick, because he just gets overlooked all the time. I'm pretty sure I'm voting him second for MVP this year. I still almost,

I had like a couple weeks stretch where I was going to vote him MVP last year. I'm not voting SGA ahead of him. I'm not. You'll get no argument from this guy.

Okay, all right. So I would gladly take... If you watch him versus OKC today, I don't think you would say SGA is the number two Okay. All right. So I, if you watch him versus OKC today, I don't think you would say SGA is the number two MVP. All right. Um, I'm going to take Lou door.

At guard or six man, small, small forward, small forward. All right. That's fine. Lou door got nailed in the face today and bled all over the court

that was it was that kind of day for OKC we need more information I love Lou Dort um I still so I have Wemby, Herb, Jones, and Giannis I have all my guard spots left

I can't believe how long we're taking which which leads me to uh the one the only Alex Caruso Giannis. I have all my guard spots left. I can't believe how long we're taking. Which leads me to the one and the only Alex Caruso. Okay, so you've got your white guy. Yeah, you know what? I am going to take him at my white guy spot.

I think he could be part of your regular spot too. Yeah, you know what? It's going to be a TBD. We'll see. One of the values of Caruso is he's a swing guy. You can swing him at guard. You can swing him into the white guy spot. He's eligible in two positions.

That scares me a little bit because then I have to take the next other white guy in the conversation and that's Hardenstein. So I can't have you take Caruso and then take Hartenstein, because then I don't even know what to do. Wow, what a time for Hartenstein. The depth for our people is not great right now defensively. Okay.

I got a spot. But for a guy who I think gets no credit for how good of a defensive player he is, but he's fucking awesome. And he hops into passing lanes, I think as well as anybody in the league. Shea Gilgis Alexander. I'm putting a guard.

Reach. He made his bones on defense. I still think he's really good at it. I don't think guys like going against him. And he's my first guard. Because I think I'll be able to get my other guard next. You're basically, you only have center and forward left. Yeah, see, I felt like I had to go guards early

because I liked the forward depth better. Yeah. But when you went Giannis we agree there's one awesome forward left though there is there is and you're going to take him right now or are you going to wait

on Gobert? No I'm taking Jaden McDaniels now how about his jumper today I was like are you seriously with No, I'm taking Jaden McDaniels now. Yeah, okay. How about his jumper today? I was like, are you seriously with two on ant? He's got one of those in him every tight game. He's like, I'm shooting this. You know I'm shooting this.

He's their no, no, yes guy. Yeah, he had one today. I've changed my opinion on Minnesota a couple times this year. Cool. I think defensively, where I've landed now on March 24th, I think defensively I could see them getting there. I don't think anyone's beating Denver, but I do at least feel comfortable enough in their backbone and defense and what I've seen from Edwards, which we didn't even talk about today.

Edwards in that Golden State game. Second quarter, yeah State game wasn't like an unbelievable stats game for him, but he's just making better passing decisions over and over and over again in these games. There's a sophistication that he has since Towns went out that I don't remember seeing before Towns went out. Is that fair? Yeah, but I think he's had very early on it was, okay, he's driving and thinking about making a play still. And that's rare with the young scores that are that good.

Like, hey, I'm getting into the hoop and I'm supposed to be thinking about somebody else. And just think the level he'd be at statistically if he flopped all the time. But he doesn't. He had a play today where in the fourth quarter he had a play he was driving hard all the time. But he doesn't. He had a play today where in the fourth quarter, he had a play.

He was driving hard on the left. And I feel like a year ago, he just would have surged in and tried to get a layup off or a runner. And instead, he just kind of kept going, rode the baseline

and found the dude in the corner and got a three. And I just, I don't think he would have done it six months ago. And by the way, Alexander Walker's defense, too, you throw him into the mix.

And I thought like Nas Reed, part of the reason why he wasn't drafted is people thought like, okay, what is he laterally like? And he carried him in the first half today. I know Ant had the second quarter, but Nas, some of the help defense that he's showing now, that cat's not out there. Yeah. So that's a lot to ask,

because I wonder how much teams are just going to absolutely load up on Edwards. But it means that, you know, Kyle Anderson was the guy Golden State chose to ignore today. And at times I was like, okay, this is going to win Golden State the game. And it wasn't. So I'll take Jaden. I'd like him to cut down on some of the,

like the one or two awful fouls a game, but he's so good against the best players on the game. And it wasn't. So I'll take Jaden. I'd like him to cut down on some of the one or two awful fouls of the game. But he's so good against the best players on the ball, it looks like to me. I'm going to take Derek White, who probably should have gone

a little bit sooner than this. I've never seen a guard protect the rim like him since like Dennis Johnson growing back to like the 80s. He's always in the right spots. He's just a really smart all-around team defender. He can guard

a bunch of guys. He can guard bigger guys. And him and Drew together has been a joy to watch and a huge reason why this team is so good. So, Derek Waite.

I'll take Rudy Gobert. Okay. Um, I'll take Rudy Gobert. Okay. Can I get a Tyree Eason ruling for my sixth man? He's out for the year. Can I still take him? He was under 20 minutes, right? Was he under 20? Oh, shit.

Oh, he's at 21.8. Yeah, I know. I can't take him then shit oh man take Grant Williams is Grant Williams under is he under 20 minutes again no no he's like 30 now for Charlotte

oh I'll take I would allow it though I would allow it only with him though yeah this is tough I think Tari's close enough I'll take if I have to go under 20 minutes can I take is would you laugh

if I took Alvarado? Oh. Under 20 minutes is tough. I probably should have made under 25 minutes. I'm taking Terry Eason. He's hurt anyway. Makes my team look better. All right.

So you have Gobert, McDaniels, Lou Dort, Drew and Suggs, Isaac, who's the pick of the draft, and the number one pick, and Hartenstein. I have Wemba Nyama, Herb Jones, Giannis, SGA, Derek White, Tari Eason, and Alex Caruso is my white guy.

And now we bring in Steve Cerruti, who's going to tell us who won. And it's not going to be a shocker since you took both Orlando Magic. So Rudy, who won the draft? I mean, this is a pointless exercise. I think you got the two best defenders that aren't centers in the league

in Suggs and Isaac. And I'll rest my case there. Isaac going one though is wild. I don't even know that. I probably would have done it because I'm a huge homer, but I don't even know if it's the right pick, but I love that you went there. Well, for the six-man spot,

the distance between Isaac and whoever the number two six-man was was massive. That's why when you told me I had the number one pick, I wrote down my board, and I was like, I need to get Isaac first because I figured you would take him because the sixth man thing. So you have to plug that guy in because I look

at my list here. I go, hey, could I be a little small with Jaden as my power forward and Dora as my small forward and Suggs and Drew? Like, wait, what if, could I be, oh, wait, I'm bringing in Jonathan Isaac to destroy souls and putting him in front of Rudy Gobert? I like my team. I could have

the Wemby, Herb, Jones, Giannis and then my SGA, White and Alex Crusoe three-guard backcourt. I feel pretty good about that. I might even vote for Bills. I gotta be honest, if you take away Suggs and Isaac, I think Bill

might have the better team. I think S honest, if you take away Suggs and Isaac, I think Bill might have the better team. I think SGA is a little overrated defensively. Really? What's the case for that? I just said it. I think there will be some questions on Dean Wade not being selected.

Was he on your white guy board? Because technically right now, he's the number one defensive rated player in the NBA. Dean was not on my board. He was on my board of guy who beat the Celtics by himself and then scored zero points three nights later. He was on that board. He's on a different board, a board I'm still trying to figure out.

What I really would have jammed you up with is if I had taken Hartenstein and Caruso. Together. And then you would have to take... I would take Chet. Yeah, you take Chet. you up with is if I had taken Hartenstein and Caruso together. And then I would have had to go. I would take Chet. Yeah. You take Chet. Okay.

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Best Coke ever. Learn more at Coca-Cola.ca. All right, we're going to talk Brooklyn really quick. So you mentioned earlier about what a draft pick nightmare 2024 is. It's a nightmare for a bunch of reasons. One is it's going to be one of the worst drafts we've had this century. Teams that don't have a 2024 first, Brooklyn, it's going to Houston. Houston, it's going to OKC. Indiana, it's going to Toronto. Golden State, it's going to Portland unless somehow they win the lottery. Clippers going to OKC. Might not have a first round pick.

Toronto, top six protected goes to San Antonio. Lakers, New Orleans can take it. Dallas, they're probably keeping it. Hawks, top 14 protected, they might lose it. OKC is rerouting a couple picks, as you mentioned. It's so complicated to figure out. I'm not even going to go through it. And then we have some

swaps, including Washington can swap. Well, they're not going to get the Utah pick. So whatever the Utah pick is, Utah is going to be fun. Right. New Orleans can swap with Milwaukee and Washington can swap with Memphis, which I think is a pretty interesting wrinkle because that might be like one and two or two and three or somewhere along the lines. But we bring all this up because Brooklyn, I think Brooklyn is the

number one team you wouldn't want to be right now in the NBA. And we're going to play a little- Who's the only other team in the conversation? Because I think there's only one other team. Who do you think it is? It's Washington. But they're at least going to get the number one pick in this draft or a top three pick, right?

It's a better asset than anything Brooklyn has, unless you want to say Mikhail Bridges. There's nothing exciting about Washington's roster. There's nothing. And it's expensive. That's a good point. Well, Kuzma wants to be there.

Cool. You know, the Jordan pool extension is like another 95 million because some of the language in there is the incentives. So that's, this is the first year of the extension. So that's three more years. Kuzma's contract goes down by like a million or two.

No, but it's Kuzma's three more years after this year. Right, right. So, you know, I think Denny's okay. I think there's been a couple of Kispert moments,

but at least with Bridges, I know I've got somebody that's kind of in that top three where last year you were like, wait, he's probably not a one, but is he a two? And then this year, I don't really know what the hell. I don't know what the hell they're doing. He's probably more on a three of a really really good team but there's at least that stretch

where he was with the Nets last year where he initiated so much of the offense and he started scoring you're like man when this guy has a little bit more freedom like there's another ceiling to his offense so I think that that's still in there but turned out maybe there wasn't a ceiling I just I think

Washington has to be in the debate because there's just nothing about that roster that you're excited about. Brooklyn started out 13 and 10. They are 13 and 35 since. From an asset standpoint, they have Bridges and Cam Johnson, who they just overpaid with an extension,

and Cam Thomas, who I'm not even sure, is a winning player. He can score, man, but I just don't understand what they're doing. I don't understand. Is this what you guys wanted to do? Just let Cam Thomas take a million shots? They have Nick Claxton as a free agent.

They have Ben Simmons as expiring next year at $40.3 million. They have Finney Smith and Schroeder on the roster next year at 40.3 million. They have Finney Smith and Schroeder on the roster next year. They have Phoenix's 25 and 27 first round picks. They have the best two of Brooklyn, Phoenix, and Philly, top eight protected in 28. In 29, they have their own first, Phoenix's first, and Dallas's first.

So that's the positive. They have picks down the road coming. On the negative side, they're giving their 24 and 26 unprotected first to Houston. In 2025, they're in a Houston OKC Brooklyn swap where they get the worst of the three picks. And then in 27, Houston can swap with them. What would you do if Brooklyn's GM called us and said, I need a GM conciliary. I love the podcast. I need some help.

What would you do if you were me? What would be the first thing you told him? I would say check in on Bridges and see where he's at. Because he's what? Up in two years? I know everybody just would be like, oh, they stink now. So just tear it down and rebuild. I know everybody just be like, Oh, they stink now. So just tear it down and rebuild it.

But my thing is like, what? And then get draft picks and hope you draft him to kill bridges. Or you get really, really lucky with a pick that the protections lesson, you know, from 25 to 28, and then you're in business in 2028,

like very few GMs are going to be like, yeah, that's cool. Hopefully I'll still have my job in 2028 while we stink for three years. Because everybody on paper always loves those plans until they have to sit through it. And be like, wait, we're not very good. And be like, no, I told you this when you made me the GM three years ago. We're going to do this.

So I would guess you might even say it right now. Like, are you saying that you would tell Brooklyn if they called you up? Joe says, all right, I'm cleaning house, Bill. I don't know that I can hire you as GM. Bit of an ego, but I'd like you to just give me some advice. What would you do? I want you to answer this question first instead of, because I feel like sometimes we go back and forth. I would tell Joe, you don't have any of your picks for the next four years. So trading McHale Bridges and rebuilding makes no sense because you can't rebuild. With that said, McHale Bridges making $25 million a year is an incredible asset for a couple of these teams that can actually overpay for the asset. You have New Orleans, you have Utah, and you have Oklahoma City.

All three of those teams, he might be worth 140 cents on the dollar to any of those teams because they have all these assets. It might be worth it for them just to overpay for them. So at least kick the tires on all of those teams before you figure out where they want to keep them. I would look at that Ben Simmons expiring and try to do my version of what Phoenix did with that Bradley Beal trade last year, where you're like, all right, like Zach Levine, right? Somebody like that, where you're like, oh, nobody wants this guy. Well, he did score 25 a game last year. We'll take them. We'll roll the dice with them because ultimately you're trying to patch together either other team's mistakes or underappreciated assets that are underappreciated because of the

price tag. You don't care about the price tag because you don't have anything anyway, but you do have the SIMs expiring that you could flip into something. So I would think about it that way. Or could you flip them in a sign-in trade for a free agent and attach something with that and try to get somebody back. I would be more proactive than Rebuild. But what I think they can't do is just be like, Nick Claxton, 150 million. And then now you're just shelling out money for a shitty team anyway. They have to decide this summer, how shitty do we want to be?

I think would be my first question. What's our appetite? And then second, how's it going to look to our fans when this is like the best draft we've had all decade and we don't have a pick because we traded it for James Harden four years ago who fled us in a year and a half. They're in a really, really tough spot. It's brutal. Because the good thing for Houston is

they recouped all the picks that they had lost. So the funny thing is you could make an argument prior to these last couple weeks of like, okay, well, this team's hurt. They're going to tank. The funny thing that's happened this year is you have teams that don't have control

of their own picks that are just like, well, we have no going to tank. The funny thing that's happened this year is you have teams that don't have control of their own picks that are just like, well, we have no reason to tank and this draft sucks. And Detroit is still trying to figure out who they have on their roster. Detroit is a roster that's a completely different conversation

than say Washington, even though the record is the same. Where I go, there's four guys on this team, maybe five that I'm really interested in and seeing where this can go. So how many, how many guys are you interested in on this Nets roster? I like really have your interest. Cam Johnson.

Like, okay. I'm completely with you on that. Normally I'd say we're just going to pay next class and whatever. I don't know, man, there'd be a limit. They're real.

I do not want to do one of those deals with him where I'm like, as soon as we sign this, we hate this contract because I think he's okay. I know there's some defensive numbers that you tell you, oh, he's a lot better than that. When I watch them a lot, for whatever reason, they're just kind of on early and it's ugly. I mean, it's really bad

and maybe that's why I'm not as into him, but I just am like, what am I paying for here? Like, am I paying? Hey,

we are center position is now solved for the next four years. I don't think he's that. Would you want to keep the team in Brooklyn? Wait, you're thinking about moving them? Yeah. It went from trading bridges. I'll tell you what they could do.

I would bring that up in our GM conciliary meeting. Like if we have two hours with Joe, I wouldn't bring it up there in the appetizers and I probably wouldn't bring it up there in the entree. But when desserts are coming, I might be like, hey, Joe, you ever thought about maybe just not staying in Brooklyn? As somebody who spent 11 hours inside of that arena on Friday,

but then in between sessions, I had to leave and then go back. Yeah. I would say whoever designed it, like, did you go to Wrigleyville and say, okay, when we put the Barclays center here,

let's have the opposite feeling of going to a Cubs game outside of it. And yes, I know. I remember Big Daddy Kane and Bismarck. I remember how I've heard, I didn't hang out there. I know that area was not the most desirable real estate in the five boroughs, but you leave. And I had to walk around and I was like, there was nowhere to go. I guess there's this one little stretch because we went, I ended up at the James Madison after party.

There's one stretch, but if you don't go toward the direction of that stretch, you kind of don't really know where you are. Yeah, but there's nothing, like there's nothing

right around it where you're like, okay, this is perfect. I mean, I guess I go to Models and drop Kyle's name. I said that really, I said,

Modell is very fancy. Uh, I feel like I'm not serving your exercise, uh, the way you would, you would want me to, but would you, I guess there's a price for bridges,

but then you stink. And now your picks that you're giving away are going to be that much better. How many picks is it again? I mean, they, they basically don't have control of their own pick until 2028. They're going to get lesser versions of the pick because of swaps in 2025 and 2027. Right. And the Phoenix picks, you never know, but it doesn't feel good right now. Unless Devin Booker says, get me the F out of here and Durant gets hurt would be the two variables for that, which I don't think either of those are realistic.

Yeah. For a couple of years, those picks are probably going to not be that valuable. the two expansion teams are worth 5 billion and 4.5 billion or 5 billion and 5 billion. The numbers I've been hearing are between 9 and 10 million with people saying bet on the 9.5 to 10 range. For both. Billion, you mean? Combo. 5 billion. Yeah. So yeah. One going for 4.5, one going for five or just both going for five. And you're Brooklyn. Would you be like, well, wait a second. What if we moved to Vegas? I know he owns the arena. I know this is never happening. I'm just, I'm just trying to think like, did this work out well for the Nets? Because I don't think anyone in New York cares about the Nets and I don't think it's ever happening. And I think if anything, the Knicks,

that whole foothold has been emboldened. And it's just like, did this work? I'm going to say it didn't. I saw something the other day. It's like, can you believe that? I mean, when you think about, imagine if you were on TV after they get Kyrie and Durant and you're on first take and you go,

this is the best thing that could have ever happened to the New York Knicks. Right. It's amazing how life works. Hey, guess what? You didn't get Kyrie. You didn't get Durant. It's going to be the best thing

that could have ever happened to you. I still think if they had gotten Durant and not Kyrie and just like Durant had signed there and he wasn't attached to somebody that still could have been a good outcome for them the combo probably not I don't know the answer

to this one I usually feel like we can solve stuff like even Washington it's like alright Washington's been doing this for 30 years like they just need to get lucky in a draft and At least they're... Right. They have a right guy doing it. The problem is it's Rashawn Holmes, Bagley, Kuzma,

and Jordan Poole for like $90 million next year. That's a lot. If we ever ran a team, I promise Russel and I would not be spending the $15 to $17 million a year on 10th men. That would be one of my rules. I wouldn't mind... It's like what you said before, I wouldn't mind overpaying somebody who's actually a good player. But I think when you over... It's

the Davis Bertans type contracts that are just the murders, the Zach Collins. When you're paying somebody 17, 18, 19 million a year who isn't going to be in crunch time for you. That's where I draw the line. All right, so we don't really have answers for... Yeah, I don't... It depends on what you think of bridges. And you did bring up a good point because imagine if there weren't the trade restrictions with draft picks.

Like what would... Would somebody trade 10 first rounders? I think Ishbier would have. Would Ishbier just have kept going? I think it should be. Would it just be, or just have kept going new owner syndrome, man? Who knows? It feels like Zach Levine. Tell me about him.

How many, could we give up our tooth? 2038 first round pick. Try to get a top four protection on that one. Here's my last topic for you. Unless you have anything. Why can't Joe Mazzola win Coach of the Year?

I'm just curious. As you know, I'm not like the most giant fan. I just want to talk it out. Why can't he? Probably because people have been listening to you for two years.

It's not my fault. I don't sway Coach of the Year voting. They're 57 and 14 and they have the fourth highest net rating and scoring differential in the history of the year voting. They're 57 and 14 and they have the fourth highest net rating and scoring differential in the history of the league. He's managed

the roster kind of perfectly. I got to hand it to him. Guys just rest on the perfect things. Hauser will pop in. He'll be awesome. Luke Cornett will be awesome. Pritchard has... Pritchard was unbelievable the other night. Yeah, I was really worried about that dude.

Last year playoffs, then started this year where it seemed like his confidence was gone. It's back and then some. And this is a team now that no matter... As long as they have five of their best eight playing, they're just beating whoever. At least in the regular season. They've mapped this out perfectly.

The best two guys really give a shit, play super hard every game. Everybody is bought in. What am I missing? He's not even really being mentioned. It never goes to that guy. Like, Jamal Mosley's probably going to win at this point. Or Dagon.

Bickerstaff, I think. When I look at what happens over the course of a season, I think Dagnall has moments where I'm like, man, they have their premise. He finds ways to kind of like, even though everybody's played the whole time, I just think there's such a well-coached team throughout it.

I mean, sometimes I'm tempted to just be like, why don't you just vote for Spoh every year? It's like from now on, for the entire time I ever have a vote, which I do, obviously, I'm just going to vote Spoh coach of the year. And you don't know who to vote for? No, no.

I'm just going to vote for him coach of the year every single year. And then the conversation will start at number two. But the reason Missoula won't win it is because those guys don't... The guy with the best team never wins this. Right? It just never happens. Dagnall is a minus 420 favorite right now.

Mosley's plus 550. The Sun fan to one. Missoula is 12 to one. And the Celtics have a chance to go like 66 and 16. They're going to have an 8-10 game lead over everyone else in the league. They've completely bought in.

I just don't know what other check marks they can hit. I don't know if he should be coach of the year, but it's weird that it's not at least an argument. I get it. OKC's young. They've done a nice job with kind of an underman roster. They still have a chance to get a argument. But I get it. OKC is young. They've done a nice job with kind of an underman roster. They still have a chance to get a one seed.

I get it. Mosley. It's usually the surprise team. That's usually all it is. Yeah, but they're not potentially winning the West. Could be a four seed. I just don't think voters do that. Yeah.

I'm done with this topic. All right. We'll finish with March Madness, which just as a product just gets worse and worse every year. And I appreciate that people enjoy it. But when I watch a game like OKC Milwaukee today or Minnesota versus Golden State, and then I'm watching Grand Canyon against Alabama, I'm like, I'm sorry. It's just not for me. I'm not judging. If people love it, that's great. I've certainly watched some games. I had a good time. I watched the Oregon game last night, but bad coaching and erratic basketball is not my cup of tea. I also didn't go to a school that was in the final four every year, so I might have a different outlook on it. Did somebody from your women's team punch Caitlin Clark today?

No, it was yesterday. It wasn't a punch. She was just trying to cut through a screen. How dare you talk about the Lady Satyrs that way? We covered, by the way. Congrats. 38.5 underdogs. Covered easily.

Only lost by 26. I went on Friday. I went to see you and take on duke and my guys john becker one of the best coaches in the country i was hoping he would get uh they got the game from duke that they needed but uvm just didn't play well enough um i think once you get past your issues which i would say i agree with because you're just like looking for a couple guys that can just take over a game you know and you kind of selfishly

want it to be like a top NBA prospect too I watch Castle of Yukon play and they were I think 40 to 10 on Stetson and I almost drafted him in our defensive player draft the effort that he was playing with was so off the effort that he was playing with was

so off the charts. What he was doing off the ball, what he was doing on the ball. There was a moment where a guy had his three-point stance, and he was trying to mirror where the ball would be in the stance with his own hand. I know people can say,

oh, that's what everybody does. Not when you're up 40-10 on Stetson. He still played with with that kind of intensity and he's supposed to be a lottery pick and yet I'm like if you're not looking for him you may not even notice it because he's not a great shooter and by the way UConn has like a million different ways they can attack you with their offense so what you do is you sign up for the drama. You sign up for the pageantry. It's why I love Saturday so much college football. That as cool as the Northwestern game was, and, you know, UConn blew them out, so it didn't really matter.

I was into it. And for a place like Vermont that doesn't have this great, amazing athletic tradition. I enjoyed that game. It made me feel like I cared about something again, which I just don't have enough of in sports anymore. But when I was in there for James Madison, Wisconsin, my man, it was on fire. Now, Wisconsin fans are some of the best fans in the country.

They're my favorite Big Ten campus. They're my favorite Big Ten fans. They're absolutely the best people. And the women get after it, too too in a very wholesome way. You know, a lot of sweatshirts, but wholesome, but not afraid. I had no idea about James Madison's whole vibe. Yeah. I didn't know anything about it.

And of course, PFT was like, look, I'm going to be in Brooklyn that night. He's like, why don't you meet me? And we have an extra seat because i had my seat for the earlier session so i sat with pft who shows up in tux ready to go like full-blown james madison and wisconsin played terrible james madison from the tips in control maybe a moment there in the second half and so james madison's experience the first tourney with that place bill i, I'm telling you, like the electricity in that building for like two straight hours from this rabid family. James Madison impressed the hell out of me.

My awareness of the Dukes prior to that, Kelvin, I mean, couldn't be lower. And now after that, they were on fire the whole time. And that's kind of what you have to remind yourself of what this tournament really is. Because for all the Blue Bloods, they're used to it, they're numb to it, their expectations are through the roof. Kentucky wants a new coach.

But for a place like James Madison or a place like Oakland for a night, beating Kentucky, that's what you're hoping is that this place, if I got a Vermont Duke win, I'd be like, man, that was like my moment I know they're gonna make it to the final four but like I finally got one of those moments so then you have to turn into what was way more aggressive because I had no understanding of James Madison these were

aggressive younger kids that were really feeling themselves against a place like Wisconsin. That's certainly had a lot more success. And I go into the bathroom after the game is over. And these James Madison guys are just heckling the shit out of this older Wisconsin guy. And he was older and he just comes right out from the urinal, doesn't unzip. And he's like, I remember my first tournament win too, unless the guys have it, which the urinal, doesn't unzip. And he's like, I remember my first tournament win too,

unless the guys have it, which the young kids, you can't combat them with more energy because they just feed off of your energy. And then I think someone yelled, his dick is out. And then somebody else yelled, now you have to show your dick. And it turned into a massive show him your dick chant that went on for a good five minutes.

And the old guy was like, I don't want to do that. And they were like, it's too late. It's too late. So it got really, really aggressive. It sounds like some March Madness. I just wish, I wish there was somebody that I could still talk to right now that was there for the chant.

Cause I'm like watching it going, Oh my God. And I thought like, Hey, if these young guys swing on this old guy, like you can't let that happen. Right. And the old guy was like ready to fight everybody.

So he might not even need any help. You're like Dalton in Roadhouse. You might have to be the cooler of the situation potentially. Hmm. Well, you made a very compelling point. It is fun when it becomes the Oakland situation or, you know,

what we had last night with Creighton. Um, I, I guess like I was talking to some friends about it, about just growing up at the tournament when you got to know the guys over the course of four years and the basketball in some ways felt like it was as good as the NBA because the guys had been around.

I just don't think I'll ever get used to that. Even today watching Duke, Duke was great today. And Duke's the team I bet on to make the Final Four. today, watching Duke. Duke was great today. Duke's the team I bet on to make the final four. So those are the games I've been watching. And Jared McCain was awesome in the game. And he was the best player in LA for the previous two years. He just had an awesome career and went to Duke. So it's been fun to watch him. But just watching that and then thinking like, oh man, he's definitely going to come out in the draft now. He'll be like a top seven pick.

But if he just stayed one more year, now he's going to play with Cooper flag and that will be fucking amazing. But he's going to leave because all these dudes leave. And that's the problem. I mean, it's great for them because they're, they're starting their professional career faster, but you don't have those moments like what we grew up with where it's like he stays, then maybe he plays three years and Flagg plays two and they're together for two years. And now I have some history with those guys.

That's what the women have going. I knew most of the Iowa players from last year watching when Iowa played Holy Cross. I saw most of those players last year and now they're together again. It's like, can they get by South Carolina? So it's like women's college has usurped some of the stuff that we grew up loving

about men's college basketball. And that's going to be the secret. We'll see what happens with the ratings when we get to the final eight. But I think it's, I think it's going to be interesting to see where America goes. I don't know if the women's thing

is like now permanent, right? Like, hey, this is what it is now, but it's really impressive. But the basketball itself, if you get caught up in that as an NBA guy, you're ignoring, you you know being there on that friday and seeing right like the the tension of a single elimination deal and you're flying these

people in from all over the country right and that moment like it was a couple times on that friday night especially the last game where i was like like, okay, this is as intense a basketball arena and it's not even a home arena. And it was a nice reminder. Right. Think if you're a Kentucky fan. You're like, all right, we'll go down Wednesday night. I got us rooms.

So we're playing Thursday and Saturday. And you think this is going to be like a five-day trip. And then your team's out. You're watching them go down in flames on a Thursday night. You're like, oh my God, I've paid for my hotel room for three more days. Our plane reservations, we don't leave until Sunday. Good Lord. You're right. There is like a single elimination tension in the building. I don't know if it translates as well on TV. Also, single elimination feels more omnipresent

in all of our viewing these days. Everything feels like whatever. I'm glad I went. It had been a while and I was glad. I was like, you know what? This is a good reminder. I'm a big College Hoops guy next year. Harlan did a great job. Harlan and I and Eagle

just lights out really enjoy those guys alright that's it hey Kyle pop on for a second who are you rooting for right now in March Madness it's UConn Big East is back and I think

Chesty Dan Hurley is the best thing we got going so UConn. McGee's is back. I think Chesty, Dan Hurley is the best thing we got going. UConn. That was Kyle Creighton. He helped produce this podcast. So did Steve Cerruti. Rosillo, great to see you. You got two podcasts this week. I am terrified that the

Patriots are going to trade down now. I forgot to mention that to you during the podcast, but it just feels like a foregone conclusion. They're trading backwards. And I really am terrified that Drake May is going to haunt the next 15 years of my life. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I don't. Okay. I'll see you next week. I want to see them on the way so I never want to say I don't have feelings with them

On the way so I never want to say I don't have feelings with them Must be 21 plus and president in select states. Fando is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Visit FanDuel.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont. Call 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 in Arizona, 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org

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