The Bill Simmons Podcast - How Great Were the ’96 Bulls? Plus: 1996 ECF Game 2 RewatchaBulls With Joe House | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: May 6, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to compare the different Chicago Bulls rosters of the 1990s, as well as some of the other all-time NBA teams (2:55), before revisiting Game 2 of the 1996 Eastern Conference finals, between the Chicago Bulls and Orlando Magic (46:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the BS podcast, the rigor podcast network brought to you by zip recruiter during this time of change. We might know that zip recruiters focused. Hasn't changed. Joe house's focus. Hasn't changed either. You still enjoy eating and drinking, right? Yeah.

And I'm counting on zip recruiter, helping restaurants, restaff, get everybody assembled. Let's get those restaurants. Once we're on the other side of this and there's, we can, we've established, we can all safely get together again. Let's get those restaurants. Once we're on the other side of this and we've established we can all safely get together again, let's get the restaurants going. Well, they're dedicated right now to helping you, the people out there, get hired from caretaking and delivering food and goods, building medical facilities, supplying protective equipment, so much more. ZipRecruiter's app will send you up-to-date job openings so you can be one of the first to apply. And if you're actively hiring, ZipRecruiter will invite candidates to apply to your most urgent roles, making it faster and easier to reach the people you need

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and pop culture pieces, as well as The Ringer Podcast Network, where we have a new Rewatchables coming. We did Gladiator, me, Shea, Jason, and Chris, an OG classic. Wow. And then we have Groundhog Day coming Wednesday night. How did you guys come up with that? Because that is making the rounds.

Not only is it making the rounds, I watched it with my wife and child last week. Yeah, it's the ultimate pandemic movie. And we cover that with me, Sean Fennessey, and a very special guest that people will be surprised about. Joe House brought back House of Carbs. It's the House of Carbs pantry party. What are you calling it? Well, we did.

We visited with a lot of our beloved Ringer friends and family. We went into their kitchens. We went into a couple of liquor cabinets. And then this week we got together with Brett Martin, our old pal from GQ Magazine, the food critic there. He just published his Best New Restaurants in America 2020, and we talked about how weird it is to be talking about restaurants in this moment and whether or not, you know, uh, how, how everything's going to change when we're done with this thing.

So it was a good conversation with Brett. Yeah. Well, the good thing is get takeout that helps support the restaurants. If you can do it coming up house and I are going to do the all time deep dive of deep dives of the 96 bulls, including a really good, uh, magic bulls games from 96 that we watched. But first fans of the bulls, our there's no sports. And what we're going to do this week and next is really deep dive MJ even more than we've done already. We've done the rewatch of Bulls series.

We've done four volumes, me and Rosillo on mine. On Thursday, you and I are going over to Rosillo's pod and we're going to do game two, 1997, Wizards-Bulls. Except you weren't the Wizards. You were the Boulets. Oh, man. The last great moment for this, for this team right here,

the ball, man. And it's a really fun series and we're going to dive into it because that 97 team that the bulls had was arguably in some ways, at least deeper than the 96 team. They, they won 69 games and did just as well in the playoffs. Um,

so anyway, we're blowing this all out leading to the final episode. What we want to do here was talk about the 96 Bulls because I think what older NBA aficionados like Kaus and myself are realizing slowly over the course of these three weeks is, you know, especially if you're under 30

and you weren't there, you just tend to embrace certain myths or half-truths from this era, one of which is the 96 Bulls are the best team of all time. In my basketball book, I wrote that this was wrong, and I laid out all the reasons why, and I had the 86 Celtics as the best team, not because it was a Boston thing. I laid out the case. I think if I wrote the book now, I would probably say the 2017 warriors were the best team ever. There are specific cases against the 96 bulls and I want to get into all of them.

I think what, one of the things that has been undersold with the whole MJ run has been how good the other teams were. And I wanted to go through them because I really think he was on four great teams. And the first one was the 91 team, which didn't really come together until about March. You know, they won 61 games. The league's a lot deeper back then. During the regular season, they were 9-12 against 50-win teams.

They went 56-15 over the last 71. Best winning streak was 11. But in the playoffs was when they took off and they went 15 and two. They had a plus 11.7 point differential. Both of the games they lost were winnable games. They lost an OT game to Philly where Jordan had, I think they either the game time or the game winning shot and just missed it.

Oh, okay. And then they had that Laker game, game one of the finals when Perkins makes the three Jordan comes down and has an open look at a jumper and misses it. That was it. Those are their two losses. They had nine double digit wins. Their two losses were by four points total. And then they defended the title the following year. And I think, you know, you talk about the faux, faux, faux Philly postseason 83, where they only lost one game. This on paper is as good as that postseason. I think the difference house, this team didn't really know it was great yet. And we weren't even really sure.

And I remember betting on the Lakers in game three in LA thinking, oh yeah, MJ, you can't win a title. And one guy shooting all the time. And I, there wasn't that kind of aura of excellence yet. Would you agree or disagree?

Yeah, because they had just finally gotten over the, the Pistons hump that like that, that happened, you know, and they, they, they swept their asses, but they, that was the first vanquished foe. And then beyond that, we didn't know what was, what they were capable of, what was possible, uh, for the bulls beyond that. Could we trust Scotty in it, in a mammoth game? He got through the Pistons in the, in the sweep. And it was like, Oh good. Scotty passed that checkpoint in a mammoth game. He got through the Pistons in the, in the sweep.

And it was like, oh good. Scotty passed that checkpoint. And they did cover this in the documentary. Rodman shoves him into the basket support. And it's one of those, okay. He responded really well. He took that one at Horace Grant, same thing. The Pistons are beating the shit out of them and 89 and 90 and 91. They do a good job in the doc of pointing out. He learned how to turn the other cheek, just get mad, get revenge, all that stuff. I, uh, I think, I think this is probably the best playoff run they have. Ironically out of the six, this is the most dominant they were in any of the six post seasons, 15 and two, they barely lost the two games and the league is really deep back then. You look at, uh, at where we were in 91 versus 96, right?

I'm going to read you the three all NBA teams in 1991. Go ahead. The year they win their first title. First team, Charles Barkley, magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Carl Malone, David Robinson. Second team, Clyde Drexler, Patrick Ewing, Kevin Johnson, Chris Mullin, Dominique Wilkins. Third team, Joe Dumars, Bernard King, Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, James Worthy. Oh my God. And we're leaving off a shitload of good guys because, you know, you also have Gary Payton

had just gotten in the league by then. Um, you have Sean camps kind of in there trying to figure out what he is. You have Mark price and Brad Doherty of Reggie Lewis. You have a really good Celtics team that, uh, was started out season 29, five. The league is just deep and awesome. By the time we get to 96, our first team is Penny Hardaway, who I was really unimpressed with a game we're about to watch for somebody who's a first team on BA Jordan, Carl Malone, Scotty Pippen, David Robinson. Second team is grand Hill early in his career. Sean camp Hakeem, Gary Payton, John Stockton, not bad. Third team Barkley. This is 96 Barkley past his prime. I think even he would admit it.

Jawan Howard. Oh, all right. Good job. You won Reggie Miller. I think one, only two times he made it all NBA team Shaq who got really boned because he's behind Robinson, Elijah and Mitch Richmond, the league's just deeper 91. And the cases for this are they have two expansion teams or four, I'm sorry, four expansion teams in 89 and 92 Florida teams, Minnesota, Charlotte, and then heading into the 95, 96 season, they had two more expansion teams, right? So that that's really the dilution of, of, of talent came with, with those expansion teams. And that's why nobody puts an asterisk next to the 72 wins, but the bulls didn't lose a game in January. Like if you look at the thing, it just says January undefeated.

Right. And, and we're looking for greatest games from the regular, cause we were trying to figure out what game to do for this. And we're going through and we're like, all right, what's an awesome game that they were in that year. It was hard to find an awesome game. Like even the finals, there's no great 96 finals game. The Orlando series, we found the one great game to do the next series. Game three was good. It went into OT. Jordan makes a, a game tying shot to send it into OT. It's at MSG. But for the most part, like even during the season, they have one good nationally televised game against Indiana. They have a really fun game at the Lakers. The game after magic comes back and it's on a Sunday and it's MJ versus magic. Oh my God, how this is happening again. But they end up killing them. Yeah. The Lakers lose by 20. So, you know, it's just the league was deeper

and better in a 91, 92. This isn't like an old guy. Oh, this is back. But it's just the league was deeper and better in 91, 92. This isn't like an old guy. Oh, this is back. But it's just, it's a fact. There were six less teams. The talent was much more condensed. And also you had some really great drafts. You had all the drafts from 79 to 82 that had all those Hall of Famers. And you had the 84 and 85 drafts, which was another slew of Hall of Famers.

And then the late eighties, you had, you know, the David Robinson and Sean camp and Gary Payton, uh, those guys coming in and the league was just really good. So this is where it gets weird because I think the merger of the 91 bulls playoffs and the 92 regular season team is your best Bulls team ever. And unfortunately, we can't do that because you'd bend the rules. The 92 team goes 67 and 15. Pretty good. And has a real fuck you edge. And this was something when I interviewed Steve Kerr about in my book about what's better when you're chasing something to get it back or when you're

defending something and you have the fuck you edge, what's more dangerous. He thought the 96 team, the edge they had was more dangerous because they had been the champs. Now they're trying to get it back. Okay. But he also thought that fuck you were defending the title edge was also really frightening and scary and also harder to harness because it becomes a little on off switchy. The thing about the 96 team that just changed everything. Maybe not change is the wrong word. Maybe it's not.

It was a effing like monumental cultural force. Michael Jordan and the Bulls ruled the world. And Dennis Rodman was no small part of that. The addition of Rodman and having Rodman sublimate his you know persona to be a very very effective and crucial part to that to that team like it was it wasn't just the circuses in town it was like you know better than the circus when the bulls came to town. Right. I agree with that. And I think you could really feel that with the 97 team too, because that was a two year

run of them just becoming so famous and so incredible and so awesome. And it was like a traveling tour. The night 97 team went 69 games. They went three less than the 96 team in the playoffs. I think they went 15 and four, the 96, the, the bulls in 96, I think went 15 and three. The teams are basically even if anything, you could say they had bison daily in 97, which was a really fun wrinkle for them. Rodman's not as good at 97, but what really made 97 amazing was what you just said. They were like the Beatles coming to America. They were like the Rolling Stones in 1977. They were Springsteen and born in the USA.

They were the, you know, Michael Jackson thriller. They transcended everything. And the only time we've ever came close to that, I think, I think, I think LeBron and the heat during the 27 game winning streak, it tasted it. I don't think it was as close, but I think it started to veer toward becoming a cultural phenomenon. I never quite got there, but then really we saw it with the Warriors with Curry when the 25 game winning streak specifically. Right. That's right. And, and, you know, Miami might've had that allure, but those dumb asses wouldn't gotten on a stage when they were all together,

they ruined it immediately. They didn't let the natural organic, like curiosity and interest. They didn't build the interest in that. They immediately just went in and seized the mantle of being, you know, this accomplished thing before they'd played an effing game together. So put a sour taste in, in everybody's mouth. And then they lost. And then they lost,

which was great. I mean, they were, they, the funny thing is they became, um, the op, they were villains as opposed to,

to heroes, the way that the Bulls were heroes. And I think that's one of the reasons the 96 Bulls team has been received so favorably in the moment and over the years because they just had a unanimous approval rating. Everybody was so excited that A, Jordan came back, and B, that they were awesome to watch.

There was no backlash. Everybody was just all in the entire year. I think you look at specifically the Miami team in 2013 that won the 27th straight and what a great achievement that was. But as you said, they still had that residue of, ah, you fucking assholes guys go on the stage. You tell us you're going to win eight straight. Then JJ Barea is guarding LeBron low post. There was still like an animosity toward that team. And the same thing with the 2017 warriors, which was,

you know, you could really make the case is the best team ever. According to all calculations. But that whole year, everybody was like, no, fuck off. You,

you cheated with this Durant thing. You cheated. It wasn't fair. I mean, it's Durant catches most of that criticism. I do want to quibble with one thing. I listened to you and Rosillo do the comparison of the, was it the 96 Bulls against the 2017 Warriors?

The one aspect of your discussion that I took issue with was you were taking the 96 Bulls and pushing them up into the 2017 era, and I them up into the 2017 era. And I didn't think that was fair. I want to drag the 2017 warriors back to 1996 and see how that team plays. The league was definitely more physical. There's no arguing it, the hand check rules, the chips as you, as you go by and so forth. And what kind of impact that level of physicality might have on guys like Curry and Durant? You know, I'm, I, it's just, I don't think it's as it's so easy to just, you know, I agree with the idea that if you grab that 96 bulls team and push them into the

2017, it's, it's going to be tough because, you know, they're, they're going to have to learn a new style of play basically. But I like it going backwards. That's fair. We, we saw in the Orlando game, we're going to talk about later when they try to shut down Shaq in the fourth quarter. Shaq, starting out at the high post, and then he's moving down. They set him a pick. He moves down the low block to try to get position. The Bulls are chipping

him with one guy hard. A foul every time now. Knocking him so that as he's about to play a position, he's off balance. Then Rodman's coming in right behind him and basically ramming his groin into Shaq's ass and planning. And all of it was about chipping Shaq, almost like he was Gronk on the offensive line, like how you would chip a tight end because you wouldn't want to get him to go down the field. You wouldn't be able to do that in 2020, be a foul.

Right. No, that's right. And one of the things I'm glad you mentioned the Rodman part of it, especially gosh, darn it. Was he physical? I know what a specimen. Yeah. We'll, we'll get into that. So 92, 67 and 15, but the Jordan rules comes out that year and it does mess them up a little

bit. Like there's no question. Like you read all the books from that era and it, it definitely changed Jordan. Um, all we knew from Jordan was the commercials and very good interviews and things like that. And that's like, Oh, you're kind of an asshole. I had no idea. And he retreated a little bit. And I think their performance is really spotty because, um, they lose seven playoff games in 92, which even though the league was really loaded that year, like they have a series against the calves that goes six and game six is in Cleveland. Doherty's got like an injured hand. Mark price is playing on a bad ankle or something. And the calf still almost beat them.

They tie the game with 35 seconds left. Jordan comes down, go watch this on YouTube, add this to the Jordan list, makes a, just a crazy three point play door. He drives into Doherty Doherty, like football, body blocks them. It's like a flagrant Jordan finishes the layup, makes the free throw and it's done. Um, but that was a really hard series. And then they go in the next series. Um, they play the next, that series ends up going seven. Yeah. And they, you know, game seven was decisive. They killed them, but then you go into the Portland series. And I think the Portland series has been misremembered a little bit because they kill them in game one. Everyone thinks it was a walk. It really wasn't like the, it ends up going

six, their bench ends up bringing them back in game six. They ended up winning the title, but the dominance wasn't quite there. So then you go to the, uh, the 97 team would be the third team I mentioned, um, 69 and 13, 39 and two at home, 10 at one at home in the playoffs. So they were 49 and three at home. Their playoff only five and a half point differential in the playoffs, which really hurts them. And that's why the 96 team, the statistical resume, I think is just better.

But here's what I wrote about them back then. They'd played 200 games, not counting exhibition 20 months with an oversized bullseye on their backs with every contender gunning for them with the gargantuan media horde greeting them in every city was sold out arenas of fans around the country saying, happy. I'm going to see the bulls today. I mean, do you remember this in 96, 97, when they were in town, we were going, neither of us had any money. We were going, I, I, I used all the money that I had to buy into season ticket packages for the, for the bullets. In fact, I bought those, those, uh, it was right after college. I had season tickets where I was

driving out to Landover, Maryland, and it was just a happy coincidence that the bulls got incredible. But I always, I mean, I went to all those games. I had, yeah, they were must the must, the most important things in my life. I was shamelessly using my dad's season tickets. So I wasn't paying, but I was paying for beer and food. I barely had money for that. Um, but then I wrote, so that arenas of fans around the country saying happy, I'm going to see the bulls tonight. Would you remember how colossal Jordan and the team to a lesser extent was compared to the other sports at the time, which is a crucial point.

Hockey's dying at that point. Hockey's moving into a different form. That's post-Devil's Trap. Oh, right. Weird shit starting to go on with hockey. It's not, I don't feel like as meaningful as it was five years before. Baseball is recovering from a damaging strike.

College hoops, that's right when the underclassmen start leaving after one year, two years. That project started, that product's starting to change. Tennis has no stars at all. None. This is between, it's kind of Agassi Sampras, but nobody really cares yet. You have golf. Guess who hadn't shown up yet? Tiger Woods.

We're just watching him. Amateurs. Football was the only real thing going. They have LA and the Dallas guys and Favre and Sanders. That's the only other sport. Football. Football was good.

But I wrote the 97 Bulls team meant more to the landscape than anyone remembers. A two-season, 20-month concert stretch that spanned, you know, all these cities. They're wearing out all these countries. And I think they did wear down in the 97 playoffs. They could have been had. I totally agree with you.

And I love that concert analogy. They're like the most popular band in, in history during that 20 month. So, I mean, they're, they are equivalent to the Beatles. I mean, that's, we, the Beatles preceded us. Um, the, the factoid that I was reminded of and looking at this, that blew my mind was the bulls had a chance to go 40 and one at home in 97. And they lost to the Pacers in their last home game. And Scottie Pippen took a three to win that game and it didn't go down. And if it had, they would have been the only team in history to go to have back-to-back 70 win, uh, seasons. Right. And the set, the 86 Celtics went 50 and one at home. They only lost to Portland in the regular season.

This, that 96 bulls team. Now, if you include the, if I'm including playoffs too, with the Celtics, cause they didn't lose, you know, in the playoffs either 50 and one, you look at the 96 bulls, 49 and two at home. So they only missed out on that 51 by one, 87 and 13 for the season. 12.3 point differential. So that's like in the history of, of competitive basketball. That's one of the top three, top four, top five.

It's pretty ridiculous. 12 and four versus 49 win teams. They had two different winning streaks of 18 and 13, which back then was no joke because of the travel was, you know, you had the charters by them, but you still were doing the four games, five nights, things like that. Playoffs. There were 15 and three, 10 and at home, 10 double digit wins.

Um, they, they were, uh, fourth in points and first and points allowed. And like, Oh, the statistical thing is really amazing, but here's, here's the issue. Um, the NBA expands to Vancouver and Minnesota that year. You have six teams that won 26 games or less out of the 29. So we have six out of 29. In 1986, there was only two teams that won 26 or less. The thing I always look at if I'm making the case, because look, we're just trying to be objective. If you've ever heard us on this pod, obviously I'm a huge Boston Homer. I also had magic ahead of Larry Bird in my book. Like I'm trying to use the perspective

of all the games we watched. The best thing you can say about what was wrong with the mid nineties to bang on this expansion point was Utah from 91 to 93, they averaged 52 wins. From 96 to 98, they averaged 61 wins. Stockton and Malone are worse in 96 to 98. They averaged 61 wins. Stockton and Malone are worse in 96 to 98. The supporting cast is either even or worse. I, you know, it's debatable, but it's at least even, it's definitely not better from 96, 98, but those guys weren't as good. How do they jump by nine wins? It makes no sense. The only thing you can point to is expansion

and dilution, right? That's right. And, and, you know, they feasted on, uh, the arrival of Vancouver and, and, uh, and the four teams that, that, that, you know, came in, um, in that era also the four other teams. See, look at the standings. Orlando wins 60 games. Chicago wins 72. Indiana, which wasn't really totally Indiana yet. They're kind of between that Reggie Miller MSG area, but they're not quite at that

Jalen Rose Davis brother era yet. Smits is not really him yet. Cleveland wins 47 games, which with Mike Fratello, remember when Mike Fratello was just bastardizing basketball. I was, you know, Doherty and Price was kind of enough. No, but I don't think they had Doherty and Price at that point. At that point, Price was on your team, right?

96. Oh, I forgot. Right to my heart. Here's their team that won 47 games. Chris Mills, Bobby Phils, Terrell Brandon, Danny Ferry, Michael Cage, and a semi-washed up Dan Marley. And a little Tyrone Hill. It was a 47-game team somehow.

They averaged 91 points a game that year. That was when basketball was really starting to get fucked up. Then you go in the West. You had the Houston team, back-to- back champs. They're finally falling off. Hakeem's not at his apex anymore. Utah is holding steady. They win 55 games in 96, uh, and then jump even more the next two years, San Antonio is at 59. And that's basically with Robinson and Sean Elliott and Will Purdue and not a lot. Yep.

And then you have, here's another damning thing. Seattle wins 64. Seattle goes 64 and 18 that year. 64 and 18. They were good. With an almost nine point point differential. And then the other crazy thing, do you know the Lakers went 53 and 29 that year? I do not remember that at all. They, so they have Nick Van Exel, Cedric Sabalos, Eldon Campbell, Divac, Eddie Jones, and then magic shows up with 30 games left in the year

and they end up losing the playoffs. The point is 72 wins in this season is not as impressive as, I don't know, the Warriors winning going 67 and 15 in 2017, something like that. Or even like the, the 2016 Warriors going 73 and nine. Yeah. The 73 and nine, I think it will over, over time be regarded as an even greater accomplishment than we already recognize it for it being an incredible accomplishment. The one thing, if you wanted to argue eras, is in 2016, the idea of tanking to get to top picks,

like bad teams absolutely have as a strategy losing professional basketball games in the regular season. Yeah. By, by this point. Yeah. Well, I think you wouldn't say that was the case of the mid nineties though. It just wasn't as, as, as, um, pronounced teams through a little more scattershot. So there's a sports illustrated team article that comes out about the Bulls in January as they're making this run.

And it's basically like, can these guys win 70? And the article is weirdly both flattering, but not that flattering about them. You have Brendan Malone, who is the Toronto coach. He says, I could tell you right now that they're not as good as the Boston Celtics teams of the eighties or the Lakers of the eighties comma. And they're not as good as the Chicago team that went three in a row. He just comes out and says that in the pieces, he's the head coach, Jack Ramsey, who is the TV guy at that point goes, the bulls are an excellent team and what appears to be an increasingly mediocre league. And then Larry Bird, a following year, he says the league is a lot more

watered down than when I played. So if you have a star like Michael Jordan today, you rule the league. Once he leaves, things will level out. Wasn't wrong. Yeah. I think even Jordan, if you read some of the books and they covered in the documentary, although one of the reasons he came back from baseball was he was thinking, I can steal a title. The league's worse. It won't be as hard to win three. I can do this now.

He's watching these games going, holy shit, I can just come back. I literally might be able to steal the title. And he, and he could have, well, that was the 95 motivation, right?

Yeah. That's why you thought he could sneak in and just knock it out. Well, the league's worse than 96. So you have that. We talked about the NBA stuff. Here's another case against them and why I think there's some hybrid of 91 and 92 has to be considered his best team. He's 33 this season.

Yeah. He had over 800 games in his best team. He's 33 this season. Yeah. He had over 800 games in his odometer. Same thing. Pippen was turned 30 before this season and was over 800 games career. Rodman turned 35 this season. Ron Harper was 32. Kukoc was in his prime, but he's a six man.

And I think if you just look at, I covered this in the book, if you're going to go like, all right, this is the greatest team ever. What are their Sistine chapel games? You know, like the 86 Celtics, the famous game they had was game five against Atlanta. They scored 25 straight points in the third quarter and the closeout game and jet and the Hawks call four timeouts, and they're just demolishing them. They're just killing them. The 92 Bulls team had game seven

against the Knicks. They went 110-81. MJ has 42. Scott is 17-11-11. They shoot 58%. This is in a closeout game seven. And then the game one Portland game, 122-89, 63 points, 21 assists for MJ and Pippen. And MJ has the iconic 35 points in the

half to six threes. And the shrug, the John Michael Wozniak shrug. This 96 team, I don't think could play four quarters like that. The game we're going to cover in a little bit, they do it for two in this Orlando game and it's incredible, right? It's incredible. Yes. But Jordan, I hesitate to say it and I'm going to say it very carefully. He's not totally as good in this 96, 97, 98. It's harder for him to score. And if anything, he's wilier, he's doing, he's posting up a lot more. He's doing that turnaround fadeaway. The reason he's doing that stuff is he can't get to the rim like

he used to. He can do it in little spurts, right? That's not a criticism. It's different. He's 33. He's a different basketball player. So if you had to say, oh, I, I had a thing. There's a comparison to wilt and Jerry West in 72,

which I think is really fair. Okay. Jordan and Pippen. Pippen's at the tail end of his prime. He's still great. Jordan's at some new prime that he's created that doesn't totally resemble his early 90s prime, but it's still amazing. And the same thing with Wilt and West with the 72 Lakers.

When they win the 33 straight, one of the ways to debunk that one, that was another thing with the 72 Lakers, when they win the 33 straight, what, you know, one of the ways to debunk that one, that was another thing with the expansion. You had expansion, then you had the ABA, they're losing young talent. And if you could have Wilt and Jerry West and Gail Goodrich on the same team, it was an enormous advantage. The league just wasn't deep enough. So even though it wasn't the best versions of them, that was the best team they ever played on. And I think that's a fair way to think about this 96 Bulls team. But if I was going to say, when did those guys peak?

I would say 91 to 93 for Jordan, 92 to 94 for Pippen. Sure. Right. Is that fair? Yeah. If you're like, what are their apex peak as basketball players? I think those are the stretches. It wasn't earlier than that for Pippen because Pippen needed Michael, the psychologist, really, to help him get over, you know, just to build the mental fortitude, the strength, the mental strength to become the player that he became. And Michael was an all-time unstoppable peak powers, 91 to 93. It's tough to argue that.

Yeah, especially like some of these rewatchables games we've done where he's just dropping 55, like he's putting a cough drop in his mouth or something. It's just like he has, I was looking through because I was trying to see if we could do an unbelievable regular season game for him. There's a Pistons game. You can find it on YouTube in 96, where it is old school, early nineties, MJ. He goes like 21 for

28. He's making everything. He scores 53. He's really pouring it on grand Hill and Allen Houston. He had a little thing with Allen Houston because of the dream team that year. He always liked to go out in Houston. And then a grand Hill was considered to be, Oh, when MJ retires, Grant Hill will be the guy. So he always gave him a little extra, but it was just harder for him to summon that. I think by the time we got here, uh, the other thing with the playoffs in 96, they, they really didn't play that well. Um, they Pippen shot 39% for the playoffs and 64% free throws and his free throw shooting was a problem. Kukoc had a bad back during the game. We're about to do he's one for 28 from three. At one point, he ends up 13 for 68 from three for the playoffs. Kerr was only 32% for three. And then Jordan had his worst playoff moments

of the 90s for him. He's 31-5-4, 46%. And you wonder, they also left with the whole thing about if Gary Payton guards him from game one of that series, is it different? I personally think no. I think Jordan would have figured it out.

But remember his last three games? I remember calling you. We would talk after every one of these games in 96 and we were going nuts about Sean camp nuts. We were like, Oh my God, does Sean camp arrival. And then like when Peyton started gording MJ,

we just made fun of George Carl on every phone call. We had like, what was George Carl doing? That's the adult team was good. And they were, and, and if there was an opportunity, they had the talent to, you know, surprise the bulls. They, they really, they needed a game one,

go in there and steal it surprise. Um, and they did, they, they didn't have it in them, um, because of the, the, the game plan, but like talent wise, that Seattle team was loaded and they were inside, outside, and they could give it to the bulls. They could give it to them. They could, they could definitely have made a mark. It just, they wasted it. You know, they had the, it's a, such a tiny sliver of an opportunity and they wasted it. So you go through the 96 bowls, third, third, third scorers, coo coach center combinations, Luke Longley and bill Wennington in the game we're about to do. They show graphic in the fourth quarter of game two, the Orlando game. And it's the center comparison is shack 31 points. Luke Longley zero. I thought that was tough for Luke. Uh, Kerr,

Kerr played crunch time. Kerr was basically a journeyman when they got him. He was on Cleveland. He was on Orlando. A couple other teams. It's a perfect fit for him. They'd Ron Harper who, uh,

who the players jokingly called peg leg. Couldn't shoot threes. Was playing on one leg. Ninth and 10th men were Judd Bushler and, uh, and Randy Brown. So, you know, I think it's a great team. I think it's one of the five best teams ever. I'm not sure it was his best Bulls team from an Apex standpoint, from a beginning to end it was,

but I would still take some version of that 91 playoff team combined with the 92 regular season team with the Horace Grant athleticism could do 80% what Rodman could do. Plus you have BJ Armstrong, you have Cartwright, who is a real center, who is a really good defender. And you have Stacey King coming off the bench,

could bang some bodies. BJ Armstrong was a good King coming off the bench, could bang some bodies. B.J. Armstrong was a good third guard off the bench. I just thought they had more weapons. I'm not going to argue with you. It doesn't show disrespect to those Bulls to have them be included as a top five all-time historical team. The case for them really quickly, if you're going to make the case,

they did start out the 96 seasons, 41 and three. It's pretty good. And it hit a point where every game they're playing was the biggest game of the season for the other team. That's a fact. And I remember I wrote about this in my book about the Celtic game I went to when the garden

fans kind of just started cheering for the bulls a little bit. It's on YouTube and I watched some of it. Pippen and Jordan each have 37, but they're way down in the game. The Celtics are up by like 15, 18 and they do the thing they do in that Orlando game that I think if you're going to say like, what is the single most memorable identifiable thing about this team? It was when they were down and Jordan and Pippen were like, let's just take the ball from them every time. It's it's unbelievable. It's there's never been anything like it ever.

That's right. I mean, this is the part that we need to emphasize to folks. This is the real takeaway of our show today. That bulls defense in 1996, Rodman Pippen and Jordan was goddamn incredible. They covered so much space, like from one side of the court, all the way to the other side of the court, from, from the half court line, all the way to the baseline, those guys by themselves the athleticism the length their iq the defensive iq was insane and they got so many easy baskets that way then they could flip it that was what that's the part of it is like they it's not like you could see them looking at

each other but they clearly like all agree okay Okay, now let's go do it. And they go do it. It's unbelievable. And I think the 91 bulls, you could feel it in that Lakers series. If you go and watch those games could dial it up defensively in a really frightening way when they wanted to, because of the athletes that they had,

they could do it. I think the difference with this 96 team and like, you know, when I'm on my deathbed thinking about the greatest basketball, which is probably what I'll be thinking about over my family and everything else, the greatest thing I've ever seen on basketball court, I'll just never forget seeing these guys in person

and watching them do that. The only way I can describe it is when you watch Kawhi now, when Kawhi gets in that mode of like, I'm going to guard this guy full court. I think I'm going to take the ball from him. And he actually would. The difference is they had two Kawhis. I like this. I love that Kawhi. We were put bringing Kawhi into this conversation. Because the Pippen really reminds me of Kawhi. If anything, I think you see it in that Orlando game.

Pippen's actually kind of like, seems bigger. Like he was 6'8", but in these games, it seems like he's seven feet. He's around the rim, explosive. Like Kawhi was never around the rim like Pippen was. What's his wingspan? It seems like it's eight and a half feet. It could be nine feet for as long as his arms are,

how he plays lengthwise. I still, I've, I've been fortunate enough to see both them in person. I was alive for both their primes. I still think Pippen's the best perimeter guy I've ever seen. Wow. And I, and I actually think Rodman, I just, as a defender is in probably like my top five or six ever. So if you're going to make the case for the 96 bulls, to me, this is the case. Yeah. Those three guys together defensively. Sure. That's it. I mean, I, I totally agree with you and I'm glad that you mentioned Rodman again, because the, the he's 35 years old this season. It's right. It's you could told me he's 23 and I was so yeah. Right. The young,

the young Rodman after the Pistons, when he was a teenager, he came, but I mean, he's the way he moves. And again, that, that, uh, the instinct, the basketball IQ, and that was one of my favorite aspects so far of the last dance is him talking about how he taught himself, how he learned that, you know, the, the intellect to, to understand that, like, this is going to be my role role this is my way to be successful at this sport and i'm going to study this and then he did it and he had you know the the best possible um coaching situations from daily to um uh uh who who was the coach in in in san antonio was pop there no he wasn't there was bob hill that didn't go that didn't go that well that doesn't count the bob hill bob hill didn't go well anywhere

no nobody named hill really was a fan of we were not a fan of anyone named hill we're gonna kill brian hill later but chuck daly and phil jackson as as you know the the Rodman whisperer, pretty good. And another reason that the 96 Bulls team is so fun, Rodman, it's the best version of him. It's the most reliable he is out of those three years. And he's just awesome in the Orlando game we're going to do. He's really awesome. He's awesome.

I can't believe he only made two all-star teams. I had him, I think in my book, I had him like 69th or 70th, something like that. He only plays one side of the ball. You know, I mean, I know, but if you're looking for like, who do I need as my third best player? I have two awesome players. Who's a perfect third guy for me. He's got to be on that conversation. I agree with you. Cause it's a perfect third guy for me. He's gotta be on that conversation. I agree with you. Cause it's just, he doesn't care. He doesn't need the ball. He's going to do his two things. I mean, you, you get all the craziness that comes with it, but, um, the stuff he does in the Orlando game we're about to talk to, I think is one of the reasons, um, he was so special, but you know, I think about, um,

that, that Celtic game that I remember seeing and I wrote about, but then on YouTube and I watched some of it and it was exactly how I remembered it with the Pippen Jordan. Like it was like, it was honestly wild kingdom. It was watching two cheetahs size up the, the shitty deer in the pack being like, Oh, that's our guy. If you had a bad point guard against those guys, and this dates back to the early nineties too, because this is something that I had just forgotten from, this was a tactic they use that whole decade. Yeah. Their ability to swing the momentum of a game with the full court trap or the pressing defense, but using their two

best guys, you would just never be able to get away with it. Now you wouldn't even think about it right now. I asked, I talked to Steve Kerr today because we were playing in the flying coach podcast. And, uh, and I asked him, I was like the 96 bowls team. Wasn't as good as the 90 one 92 teams, right? It's like, no, no, the league was league was watered down. So he actually agreed with that. Um, but we were talking about the pressing stuff and I was like, why don't teams do that now? And he was like, why don't teams do that now? And he was like, cause now it'd be too risky. Cause if you get caught, somebody shoots a three back then, nobody was thinking that way. So if you got caught, it was fine. They just either got a layup or as a three on two, they're going to shoot it too. But if you did it in 2020, you're, you're risking a three. It's too risky. That's a great point. The thing that came to mind to me immediately is they would foul out

because you're not allowed to breathe on a guy now. True. You get in the neighborhood of James Harden and it's a foul. The stuff Pippen does in the Orlando game we're about to talk about, only Kawhi lives in this universe, and maybe Jordan too. Maybe it's those three. But where just somebody being like, I'm just taking the ball. I'm just taking it.

Nobody can do that. It's impossible. So I just remember those two guys together was really special. And I think if you're going to make the case for 96 over those 91-92 teams, the familiarity those two guys had by that point was really special to watch in person. And by the way, if you're going to come to me and be like, 96 was better,

it's because those guys were so beautiful together and then Rodman was better than Grant. Those are my only reasons. I'm not against it. I'm just telling you, I think that 91-92 team is just more explosive because of his offense. They always had the ability. Someday we'll have the ability. Somebody will come up with the definitive defense, a defensive advanced metric, and we'll be able to try and compare across eras,

but the symbiosis Rodman as a defender and what kind of a complimentary role he played for the kind of defenders that MJ and Pippen were, that would be the argument. And you would say, that's a, it's a reasonable argument. You can't yell at somebody for making that case. All right. So this game we did bulls magic game to 96. The background is we covered on Sunday's podcast with Rosillo where Jordan comes back from baseball, thinks he can steal the title, plays better than people remember, but still has blows it in game one and blows it in game six.

And we just weren't used to watching Michael Jordan blow it before. I forgot until I listened to you guys, uh, the 31, seven and four. Yeah. And then he had three games over at 38 or more like vintage MJ stuff. But that the lingering memory is the mistakes. It's the, it's the giveaways at the end of games. Yeah. And you know, now that I, we watched this 96 game, I think the difference,

cause he's sloppy in this game too. Like he has a couple of I, we watched this 96 game, I think the difference, cause he's sloppy in this game too. Like he has a couple of turnovers and there's moments when he goes to the rim, it gets blocked and things like that. It was stuff that didn't happen in the early nineties ever. Cause he was so athletically superior to everybody. It's just a little wear and tear. There's an ease with how he carries himself in this game, especially on the defensive end that I just feel like he wasn't comfortable enough in 95. With that said, I still think they lose because of that matchup. Yeah, I agree with you.

So they swing it in this game as we're about to go into. It's 53 38 at halftime. Shaq has 26 points at halftime. Shaq is magnificent. I highly urge people to go on YouTube and watch this because it, there's a couple of interesting things that come out of it. One is you always hear about, well, they never went against the center,

best center they went against was Ewing. And then they went against Shaq there and they lost Shaq's better in the 96 series than he was the 95 series. And he's torching them and they solve it. They figure it out in the 96 series than he was in the 95 series. And he's torching them. And they solve it. They figure it out in the second half. They figure out how to solve it in the first half. Not only can they not solve it, he's drop-stepping them.

He's jump-hooking them. He's spin-moving them. He's going up alley-oops. He's overpowering them. You watch this game and you're like, Shaq is the best part of all time. It does remind you how good his footwork was oh he's a he's a goddamn ballet expert out there it's beautiful to see and you know it's it's funny because we're so used to seeing Shaq on tv in this era skinny Shaq unbelievable handsome guy skinny Shaq. Yeah. Still handsome, but handsome.

Handsome athletic Shaq. But it's funny watching that 95 game. And then this game, I was getting mad at his teammates. Nobody could throw a fucking entry pass on his team. Yeah. And then Penny Hardaway, who I was all in on as, oh man, Penny Hardaway. You should have seen him. And I really loved watching him.

And then you watch this game. You're like, God, he can't fucking dribble. He can't bring the ball up against the press. He doesn't know how to throw an entry pass. Like he has no idea how to run a team. I was so mad at him during this game. It's like, Penny, take over. You're in first team all NBA. It's just because it's MJ and Pippen with their, with their mentality to, you know,

game winning it's game and Pippen with their, with their mentality to, you know, game winning it's game winning time mentality. Well, and that's what, one of the many things that made this team special is they, they solve the magic by, they put Pippen on Penny when he's not out there, they have Jordan on Penny when he's not out there, they bring in Randy Brown, who was just an awesome defensive guard back then. Like really like a Lindsay, a Lindsay just an awesome defensive guard back then. A great cast. A Lindsey Hunter type, just

annoying. I love that Lindsey Hunter comparison. Absolutely. So, Penny's uncomfortable the whole game. And then they slowly figure out with Shaq, we'll put Rodman on him. We'll double team him. Rodman's going to do just crazy Rodman shit.

And he does. does make them uncomfortable. And Shaq has 10 in the second half. It's not like they completely shut him down. Right. Rodman's kind of baiting him into feeling comfortable getting the entry pass. He's hopping around him, uh, just doing all these things.

But basically they solve these two guys who were two of the best eight players in the league magic score. I think they had 26 points in the second half until the game's over. Then they got a couple extra baskets, but it's, it's, it's beyond the shutdown, right? That's right. They unplug the magic, the biggest bummer of this game. And really the way this series, um, you know, is, is properly remembered is all the injuries that Orlando had because it was on, as we were sort of,

you know, looking at, this is going to be the, the, the great matchup. This is where MJ, we're going to see whether or not he can get revenge on the team that knocked him and the bulls out the year before.

And then Horace Grant hyper extends his elbow in game one. So it was really like only the first half of game one where the two teams both sort of equally healthy. But the both, both beat them by what? 40 in game one. Yeah. Because Michael came in and said,

you know, we're going to make a point here. You know, this was one of the trademark aspects of the, of this bulls team from this era. Also, I mean, they did the same thing to Portland. They feasted. They did this to the Knicks in the previous round. The Knicks had a really aging Derek Harper at that point as the point guard and Charlie Ward as the backup. And they just use the press and the trap and made it

made the Knicks so uncomfortable. They ended up winning in five. It was something that they probably should have done in 95. He should have played Ron Harper more. And I think Steve told me that, I think Phil realized that after the 95 season that he didn't use Harper correctly and that the move was actually, they let B.J. Armstrong go in the expansion draft. They decided to just get bigger

and do Harper, Pippenippen and Jordan and Rodman just all together and go length athleticism. And that unlocked the team. Um, but I think, I think, uh, their ability to switch on D which is very modern now, right? Every, every team is looking for the team that, Oh, you, you got it. And,, and oh, now I'm going to guard him. You couldn't do that with B.J. Armstrong. You know, you could barely do it with Kukic. Yeah, right. And it is that aspect of it

that, to me, resonates the most with the 2017 Warriors. That interchangeability, the fungibility, and the guys are, you know, size guys and speed guys and athletic guys. It's Draymond. It's clay. It's, uh, you know, KD played defense that year. Right. So a couple other things from this game, we have to kill Brian Hill. I was so unimpressed by him. He, he, he loses Horace Grant and he's like, I'm going to start John conk.

Kack. I mean, who, who plays like 25 minutes, Danny, Angie, Vern Lundquist are the announcers. And Danny age is like,

conk. Kack seems hurt to me. Vern like, see, he's really banged up. I give him a lot of credit for gutting it out. It's like, you don't have to do this.

Just play Brian Shaw. He did get hurt. I mean, he was hurt. He, he barely played in the second half con cack, but your point is right. He ended up with 22 minutes, which was probably 19 and a half minutes more than necessary. Just play, play Brian Shaw, Anderson, Scott, Penny, and Shaq. This isn't hard. Play your best guys. The other thing, when they really start, the Bulls come out in the third quarter and they're just like, we're dialing this up. We're taking the ball

every time. MJ has 17 points in the third quarter. It seems like they force, what, eight steals in the third quarter? It feels like in a row, too. Like, every time they come up, they just pick it. Taking the ball. Yeah.

And they really need Brian Shaw to be out there. And finally, he goes out there. But there's this one third quarter stretch. Pippen, first of all, Rodman makes a bank shot, which is hilarious. They come down. They get a stop. Pippen, fast break, pseudo fast break, goes in, but then kicks back out to MJ for three. Yeah. Makes it cuts it to

like nine crowd goes nuts. Magic inbound the ball. Pippen does a diving steel. Like he's a defensive back catching an interception steals and calls timeout. And the fans are like losing their minds. I highly encourage people to watch this. It's just like, it's this, I'll put it on the book of basketball, Twitter account. It's this one minute sequence where you're just like, Oh my God, what just happened? Yeah.

But they only credited Pippen for three steals in this game. It seemed like he had like eight. Well, did they capture touches back then? Isn't that a, I don't know. Touches or whatever. Oh,

if you had, if you had touches in 96, he would have, he would have twice as many as anyone else in the league. I had, if you had touches in 96, he would have, he would have twice as many as anyone else in the league. I mean, that's true. And then they're doing the double thing on, on Shaq and they just swing the game.

MJ is 17 that they're, they're going to 24 to four run fourth quarter. Now Shaw's playing. So Orlando settles down. It's 81 79 with, I don't know, three and a half minutes left and the magic don't score again until the game's over.

Bulls are like steel, a 24 second violation, uh, another steel. Like it's just, they just put the clamps down and this is a team that had Shaq and Penny who were two of the best 10 players in the league. They can't get a shot.

They can't throw an entry pass. It's worth noting how shitty Dennisq and Penny who were two of the best 10 players in the league. They can't get a shot. They can't throw an entry pass. It's worth noting how shitty Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson were. I mean, those are the guys that could make a difference, right? And they were making shots in the first half of this game and that's what kind of staked

Orlando out. It made you feel like, oh, this one, okay, this is the way the series is supposed to be. And that perimeter pressure is what should have taken the pressure off of Shaq. Like the ability to double team Shaq. You have to make the Bulls pay for that by Nick Anderson knocking down an open three or Dennis Scott knocking down an open three. And they couldn't do it.

They sucked. It's funny. Cause I think our memory of those guys is that they were really good in the moment. It's kind of like, we didn't know any better. Like Dennis Scott, he averaged, uh, I mean, he had a good year. He was almost 18 a game. He led that year and threes made. He took seven and a half threes a game made 42%. They, it was still the gimmick three pointpoint line, though, so it's hard.

He had to take it with a little grain of salt. Anderson was 50 in a game, 39%. But in games like this, for whatever reason, the athleticism of Jordan Pippen just seemed like starkly different. You know? It just was like, oh, shit. They can't like, neither of them could handle the ball,

but that's, that's not an explanation for not being able to make open shots. And, you know, I think you're right about this reputation thing. I do think that both of those guys were good. Maybe I, you know,

we misremembered we're misremembering it. Well, Nick Anderson, the playoffs, 28% from three, 43% shooting. And then if you remember, you know, he lost his confidence. Yes. Never from the finals. He started missing free throws and kind of fell apart on that

front, but they got really exposed the next year because Shaq leaves, they go 45 and 37. Um, and Nick Anderson at that point, you'd be like, Oh man, Nick Anderson probably cooked that year without Shaq, right? His dads go backwards. He scores 12 points a game.

Dennis Scott's at 12 and a half points a game. They're still making threes, but I think they were probably more limited than we realized because it was so fun to have guys like him. Chuck person was another one. We thought Chuck person was like amazing. Remember? It was like,

Oh my God, he made five threes in a game. He made some deep threes. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So I look at that Orlando team now and you know, if he makes those free throws, do they beat Houston? It's a, it's a, it's a little bit of a, what if I don't really know how to feel about that. Cause they almost won game three. Right. Hakeem was the best part in the series series but Shaq was putting up numbers in that series at least no it's an incredible what if era yeah I was really unimpressed by Hardaway compared to what his stats were in this game though I really think that they were um really affected by Horace Grant not being out there. Like he was like their glue guy, leader guy.

Yes, yes, especially against the Bulls, right? Like the single contribution that he can make in that context, in that instance, is to help galvanize them. And, you know, coming out and having a stinker in game one in Chicago after Chicago's ripped off 72 and 10 win thing, like, you know, a coronation kind of moment. Oh, it's the playoffs. We're going to go out and kick ass in the playoffs. Like you, you can chalk that one up. But then game two is, is, is the competitive game and not having Horace Grant for the competitive game.

It just, it was obviously fatal. Um, but I think it translated like more into those role players. Like those guys just were clueless and Penny was lost. He was, he, that second half, he was lost. It's he's certainly on paper was a baddest talented of the guys you would have wanted that position. And you know, like if he had been MJ's sidekick for the first six years of his career, I'm sure he would have had a pipping like, correct. He did get hurt, which is unfair. Unfair to like, when you talk about him, you have to mention here at his name. And he just wasn't the same after that.

But I felt like in the Houston finals and in this series, they kind of needed him to make a leap that it, for whatever reason, he wasn't totally, uh, totally ready to make. So, so with this 96 bulls team, and I think they're the third best team ever. I still have the 86 Celts ahead of them. And I honestly have the 2017 warriors ahead of everybody. I think that's the best basketball team I've ever seen. Um, the, the, the thing, those three teams had in common. And I think the 89 Pistons had this. I had them ranked fourth in my book. I think the 87 Lakers had this too.

When they absolutely had to win a game, they were winning the game. Yeah. And you could catch them like with the bulls. They go up three, nothing in Seattle, kind of, kind of lose focus a little bit. They lose game four. They some game, all of a sudden it's a game six. You and I never thought they were losing game six. It was more like, wow, they kind of fucked this up. They, they, but they're not losing this game. Same thing for, uh for game six after in Phoenix

when they blow game five, MJ packs the one suit. They tell that story over and over again during Jordan's career when he really needed to get one. He usually got it, but this 96 team was definitely like that. 86 team, same thing. They lose in Houston game five, the Samson fight. They're winning game six. I went into the garden that day. I'm like, there's no way we're losing. There's a 0% chance. Uh, the Warriors team is another one. They lose that game four to Cleveland in Cleveland game, game five.

It's like, there's no way they're losing there. This team's fucking awesome. They're not losing two games in a row. And I think the rare teams made me feel that way. It's weird. The Miami team, in the playoffs, they never had a stretch like this

where you were like, oh my God, that team, when they really won it, they're winning. It just really wasn't the case. The OKC series in 2012, those first four games were really close. Yeah. 2013, they probably should have lost. And then

round hits a shot. I thought the streak was their greatest moment. And I still think it's one of the 10 greatest NBA moments to win 27 in a really competitive season. And, and the team that finally beat them was this Bulls team. That was really good. That was home. And through every punch they had at them and still barely one, you know, I, I,

to me, that was when they peaked. It didn't really totally happen in the playoffs, but I, um, I think that's going to end up being the signature, um, high watermark for that,

for that, um, heat team, right? The titles that they won were impressive enough, but the real achievement of that team was that streak. That, and I think the fight that they showed

at the end of Game 6 when they could have rolled over and they didn't. Yes. In 2013. Yeah, in Game 6 to just they got the two biggest rebounds of the game to keep their seasons alive. And then game seven, LeBron was amazing. Yeah. He it's in the running for greatest game he ever played. And, uh, and the Spurs were still coming at them. And I think

people are now realizing that those Spurs teams are really great. I think you can make a case for the excellence that the 2014 Spurs reached in that finals might've been a higher level than any heat team got to. You may remember that. Remember, remember watching that they fucking looked like the 77 blazers shooting threes. It was incredible. It was,

it was, um, the, the most impressive comeback validation of like, you know, a championship identity because they had 13. They've they regarded that as having been stolen from them. And they're like, there's just no way we're going to let that happen again. That was that's the true mark of prideful.

You know, that Tony Parker, Manu, Timmy Duncan. Lil' Boris? Yeah. Lil' Boris? Why not? Our guy Boris was doing some stuff. Yeah. Making espressos and moving the ball from the high post. So it's a fun argument.

And I would highly encourage people to go watch. There's some miracle worker on YouTube. I couldn't believe this. Has every single Bulls regular season game on a YouTube playlist. Oh, wow. which there's some, some miracle worker on YouTube. I couldn't believe this has every single bulls regular season game on a YouTube playlist. Oh, wow. All in a row. All of that's how I found that Celtic game. I was watching Todd day, Dana Barrows, uh, little Rick Fox. I'm going to go back and watch them put the clamps on, uh, Cal Chaney and at the capital center out in Landover. I was at that game. We're going to get to do it on Rosillo's pot on, uh, Cal Chaney and at the Capitol center out in Landover. I was at that game.

We're going to get to do it on Rosillo's pot on, on a Thursday. Your guys see what happened to one. Yeah. They were my guys house. Thanks for, uh, thanks for batting around the 96 bulls with me. I had fun. I loved it. I, I, we could do it for another hour and I wouldn't get bored. Everybody else would, but I loved it. I, I, we could do it for another hour and I wouldn't get bored. Everybody else would, but I wouldn't. Uh, that's it for the BS pod. Thanks to a zip recruiter. Don't forget about the rewatchables with, uh, groundhog day with Bishan fantasy and a special guest. Don't forget me and Rosillo and house on Rosillo's pod on, game two bullets, not wizards, bullets, bulls, which is on YouTube. If you want to find it. And then we're coming back here with one more podcast later this week.

See them. I don't have feelings with him On the wayside On the first side of the river I don't have feelings with him