The Bill Simmons Podcast - Inside the NBA Bubble, KD & LeBron, ‘Showbiz Kids’ and River Phoenix With Chris Haynes and Alex Winter

Episode Date: July 14, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Yahoo senior NBA reporter Chris Haynes from inside the NBA bubble in Orlando to give us the scoop on how things are going. They discuss how the league has been administering the quarantine inside the bubble, why players decided it was in their best interest to play, Chris’s start in journalism, and covering the Cavaliers and Warriors during their rivalry (3:15). Then Bill talks with the director of the new HBO documentary ‘Showbiz Kids,’ Alex Winter, about his life as a child actor, the stigma associated with the profession, Hollywood in the ’80s, and what he learned from making the documentary (1:09:05). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the BS podcast on the ringer podcast network brought to you by zip recruiter. Hiring can be difficult, but if you're currently hiring, you face new difficulties, housing wire, they could relate. They needed a higher reporter to cover news stories in the U S housing market. So they turned to our presenting sponsor zip recruiter, and that's how housing wire found Alexander Roja. She never imagined she could get a reporter job during COVID-19. And then she created a profile on ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter matched Alexandra to HousingWire as a reporter job because she was a great fit for the role.

HousingWire received her application only four hours after they posted their job. Just a few weeks later, Alexandra was hired. See how ZipRecruiter can help you hire. Try it now for free at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. We're also brought to you by the HBO documentary, Showbiz Kids, which premieres tonight, Tuesday, July 14th at 9 p.m. on HBO. It is directed by Alex Winter, who's going to be coming on this podcast a little bit later.

I was one of the executive producers on it. It is, Ringer Films is involved. And it's a terrific documentary. And if you miss it tonight for whatever reason, you shouldn't because there's barely anything to watch. This is really good. If you like pop culture, if you care about Hollywood at all,

there's no way you won't enjoy this doc. And if you miss it tonight, you can catch it on HBO On Demand. You can catch it on HBO Go. I think it'll eventually be on HBO Max. You can find it on all On Demand. You can catch it on HBO Go. I think it'll eventually be on HBO Max. You can find it on all of those places. But Showbiz Kids, it's really good. We also commemorated Showbiz Kids by doing a Rewatchables on Stand By Me because all built around four child actors, including Will Wheaton, who made an appearance in Showbiz Kids. So you can check that out on the rewatchables feed. One of my favorite movies, a movie that is 34 years old

and could come out right now and basically be the exact same movie. It's great and a great one to watch with your kids. Great one to watch on a date. It is just an immensely satisfying movie. So you can hear that on the rewatchables. Don't forget to check out all of our other podcast offerings. Stay tuned because we're going to be announcing a new addition to the Ringer Podcast Network a little bit later this week.

We also launched the feed for Shea Serrano and Jason Concepcion's new podcast, The Connect, where they connect a couple movies, one that inspired a more famous movie and what that connection was. It's an interesting idea. I think it's going to be a really cool podcast if you want to subscribe to it. Go find it and subscribe

because I think it's launching next week. So there you go. Coming up, we're going to talk to Chris Haynes from Yahoo and Turner, who has been in the bubble for about a week and a half. And we're going to talk to my friend, Alex Winter, who directed is in full swing. It is going surprisingly well so far. One of the first people there, I don't know, it was you and Malik Andrews, Chris Haynes.

You guys are like the Lewis and Clark of the bubble. You've been there for 10 days. What's it like? 10 days? It seems like longer than that, Phil. I actually get, I know, I've got here on the 1st. I got here on the 1st of July, so two weeks. Oh, wow!

Yeah, that's two solid weeks. Jesus.esus yeah got here two weeks ago uh i mean it's it's cool it's interesting i think things are going to change soon but uh you know we're at we're at the coronado springs resort here at walt disney world and uh you know obviously i had to quarantine for seven days that was was, for me, that was tough, man. My room is not that big. So, you know, I struggled staying in here. The only time, Bill, the only time I was allowed to go out was to when I was going to get your daily testing.

And so I'm trying to work out, you know, still keep some shape. And so I would run across the campus to test it every day, every day. But then the last day, Bill, I was like, you know what? Damn, I'm running all this time. I'm not even getting to chill outside, you know, for a little bit. You know what I mean? So I caught on last minute. And so I moseyed and walked on the final day.

I'm like, I want to stay outside as much as I can. But, you know, that part was tough. But aside from that, man, it's been a unique experience, to say the least. So they wouldn't even let you guys walk around? Like, do like a two-hour power walk around? Even with a mask on, that didn't work? Nah, we couldn't. The only time we could walk out was to get tested.

As soon as you get tested, you got to walk right back to your room. They have, let me see if I have anything. They will give us, this is on video too, right, Bill? Yeah. This video, okay. So they will send us,

they will send us during quarantine, just send us a whole bunch of, you know, items, food items. So this is like a whole bunch of soda and I'm not drinking soda. So I got like, I got one of these and all Gatorade,

one of these and all water, other different juice options. And so they will send like just a whole bunch of food, snacks, just to get you through that quarantine. And it was lackluster, man. I couldn't stay at much of it. Yeah, that's tough to be in the same place for that many days in a row.

I mean, after about day four, you probably started losing it. Yeah, I was losing it day one, Bill. It was nice outside. You know what I'm saying? It was nice outside. You see other people walk by and enjoy the sunshine. You know, it just couldn't. So that was kind of tough for me. Well, so now the teams have arrived and you did your self-quarantine thing.

You must be allowed to walk around now and do stuff, right? Or is it still kind of regimented? Yeah, no, I'm allowed to walk around the area now. So I share. So I'm at a hotel called the Casitas or something like that. But it's the same. It's a hotel that's on the same property as where the Bucks, the Lakers, Nuggets, Utah Jazz, they're staying as well. And so we cross paths all the time. You know, we share the same lobby. We share the same restaurant as a right now that can change,

but we share the same restaurant and lobby space. And so it's kind of like, Bill, you've been to summer league. It's kind of like that. All the coaches and players are walking by. You know, we're told not to interact with the players, but

you know, they know me. They're coming up to me and talking. I was going to say, you know a lot of these guys now. Would it be weird to just walk by them like they weren't there? I've been talking to the league about that. What am I going to do? Hey, LeBron, I can't talk to you.

Hey, Donovan Mitchell, I got to move. That's why I say things could change, but as of right now, that's kind of been the atmosphere dynamic. It's just been me and Malika here. So you have the other riders, the other 10 or so riders who arrive Sunday, they have to quarantine for seven days. So I expect things to change once they get out. We thought about, I initially, we were going to send Kevin O'Connor and then the more we looked

into it for what we were getting back, it actually seemed like it was more valuable for him to just stay home because he would be able to watch all the games and react and do pods and stuff like that. It was an interesting dilemma of, is this worth it or not? How did you decide it was worth it for you to go? Well, so for me, the league allowed the two broadcast partners to get here early. So I'm here right now for Turner. I'm doing sidelines for TNT. Oh, yeah. So you had to go. Yeah.

Yeah. And so that's why me and Malika were here early. And so that was the only option I had. I took on the assignment. So I actually, it's funny, I got probably a, it's just how fluid these talks were and the negotiations were as far as the restart goes. I probably had a two-day notice as far as like, if you want to do this,

you got to leave in a couple of days. Right, right, right. I'm like, oh, because I was planning on getting here before the rules came out. I was planning on getting here like a week before the season started. I think that I got word on a Friday that they wanted me to go, Thursday or Friday that they wanted me to go. And I had to leave Monday morning. Well, we should mention you have like, how many kids do you have at home? Like 12, 17? I got 12 divided by four.

So my math is horrible. I got four. I got four. You have four daughters, right? I got four girls. So my oldest daughter horrible. I got four. I got four. You have four daughters, right? I got four girls. So my oldest daughter, she's actually going off to college. Oh my God.

She's going off to college. So I'm going to miss, I'm going to miss her, you know. What kind of, what kind of tears? Who cried? Everybody cried

when you left? Pretty much. No, none of my daughters. Well, my youngest daughter cried. Wife cried. That's about it. My daughter's 15. She would absolutely cry if I was leaving for three and a half months. There would be waterworks. No, no, no, no watershed from my teenagers.

My youngest, my youngest daughter. Yes. Well, the thing is now with FaceTime and stuff like that, it's not as crazy to go. You can still feel like some sort of connection. You can see faces, stuff like that. If this was happening 20 years ago, you're just doing phone calls and that's it. I think it would be a lot more jarring to be away for that long. Yeah, no doubt. But, you know, I'm here for a long haul, Bill.

You know, that's until early October. And so that's going to be rough, man. That's going to be rough man that's going to be rough so were you worried at any point that this might fall apart because there was about i would say 10 to 14 days ago once we started to actually get close to it and the florida numbers were spiking i felt like it was 50 50 that this was going to happen because i was worried about a snowball effect where a couple players are like fuck that I'm not going and then

it becomes dominoes and now all of a sudden 12 guys aren't going and then who knows but now that everybody's actually in the bubble it seems like this is going to work were you worried that this might not work you know I still don't know if it's going to work completely but i'll say this like

adam silver was very adamant about getting this restart going and um i think once the players understood that there are significant financial ramifications that can be had if this season didn't resume so knowing all those factors i figured they would come up to some type of solution and pathway to get this thing started again. So I wasn't surprised that they got it going. You know, I saw the numbers. I saw the spikes in Florida. Then I started thinking, like, well, can they change the venue all of a sudden?

Because Las Vegas really wanted this event. And obviously, the players really wanted it in Vegas. But there would just be too many loopholes in Vegas to overcome. But I wasn't surprised at all that they got it back going. Yeah, if they did Vegas, I think there was a way to shut off the bottom part of the strip where Mandalay and Four Seasons are and stuff like that and basically completely shut it so it's a bubble. But then there's a whole casino aspect of it that I'm not sure

they would have been able to control. There's a whole casino aspect, Bill, that I'm pretty sure a lot of players are familiar with some of the individuals that reside in Las Vegas. You know, they don't know to be individuals over here in the Walt Disney World area. You know what I mean? So there's a higher risk of getting in trouble. Sure.

When did you start thinking about the actual rest of the season in playoffs, just as somebody who analyzes basketball for a living? Because I am, I didn't want to let my guard down with that stuff yet. And this past week, I've started to get my mindset into, oh, shit, basketball is going to happen. I got to remember what the storylines were and who's on what team, who's not there, what the matchups could be. And I'm kind of slowly going back. It feels like it was a million years ago that the season stopped. When does your brain shift to, oh, yeah, somebody's going to win the title this year?

When, um, like I said, I've, I've always, I've always figured that they will find a way to make this thing happen again, but it wasn't until the league, you know, officially announced that there was agreement to get this started. And so that's when I was like, damn, like, I'm really going to have to leave. Like, I'm really going to have to go, you know? That's when it kind of started to hit. But obviously, it didn't really hit me hard until I got that call. Right.

About three days before I had to leave. You know, you got to go away now. Go away now for three months. I'm starting to get excited for the hoops, but I still feel I felt this way when they announced it. There's too many teams. I think they

probably could have settled on 14 and it would have been fine and it would have removed a lot of variables for just a couple hundred extra people that maybe didn't need to be there. I don't really see the point of even before Bradley Beal bowed out the wizards being involved. Who cares?

Oh, they have a puncher's chance to get in the eighth seed. Well, great. They're going to get killed by Milwaukee. Why is Sacramento there? Why is Phoenix there? Why San Antonio there?

I wonder, do you think if they had to do this over again, if they would have lowered the number of teams that maybe had 14, given the one seeds of buy in round one, what do you think they would do if they could do this again? I don't if they would have lowered the number of teams that maybe had 14 given the one seed to buy in round one? What do you think they would do if they could do this again? I don't think they would

change anything, Bill. Because I think they look at the attraction of Zion Williamson. They look at the attraction of Portland Trailblazers squad. That's right there. And it's like,

and I'm not going out there saying they made exceptions strictly for the Warriors. But Zion Williams. But they might have. They might have. They could have. They're a draw. And so the thing is, if you're going to let New Orleans in, then you have to see, okay,

who are the other teams that are in that range? Because they're going to feel some type of way about being left out. So I think that played a large part, the reason why we had so many teams in here. And I had, I want to say a month ago, you know, I interviewed Damian Miller. He had that statement that he didn't want to go to the bowl if his team didn't have a chance at all of making the playoffs. Like if there was no avenue for him to go, he doesn't want to play. He's going to sit it out. Obviously, that has changed.

But the Portland, the Portland Trailblazers, they were the only team that voted against the 22-team format. They felt it should have been 20, 20 teams. And so I told Dane, the reason I brought Dane up, I told him even before it was final that it was going to be 22 teams, I told him, I said, you know what? Due to this pandemic and this virus, I said, I don't know if Blazers deserve to be there because you guys have, what they played, 50 games so far or something like that?

Like you have 50 games to show, to prove if you should be there or not. And I understand you had injuries. Nurkic wasn't there. Zach Collins wasn't there. Rodney Hood. I understand, but that's how it is. And so I felt like just for safety purposes, just bring in the top 16. Just bring in the eight from each conference and start that way.

That way you're not bringing in an extra amount of bodies, players and staff, onto the campus because we don't know how this thing is going to play out. So that's the way I felt, but I wasn't surprised at all that they added teams like New Orleans to give them a shot. And if you added New Orleans, then you had to add teams that were in that same distance away from that H-Suite.

You know, it's funny you're saying this because now that you're saying it, I'm thinking that four game cushion, where if you're within the four games, you get to be in the play-in. It does seem like that was specifically designed for New Orleans. Like they could have said it was a two game cushion. Then that makes it a lot harder.

But I mean, ultimately, if they can get Lakers, New Orleans in round one with a healthy Zion, I'm sure that would be their dream situation. The problem for them is in the East, you're going to have the seven seed and the eight seed is just going to suck, you know, and, and maybe even Indiana too, if there's no Ola Depot, they're going to be a little bit limited. Then you have Utah, they lost Bogdanovich. It really might be a situation where you have the three teams, maybe three and a half.

If you include the Celtics, depending on how they look that are just way above everybody else. And we're going to feel that pretty early. And the Pelicans have the softest schedule during this restart. Oh, you're saying conspiracy with that? No, I'm not saying that. I'm just stating the facts.

I'm just stating the facts. But if you talk to the Pails, you talk to the Pails, they said their schedule was actually, let me see, it was softer during the remaining regular season. And so they feel like there's not... Yeah, that's how they feel.

Who do you think ultimately was the superstar driving this the hardest to have the bubble come back? Do you think it was LeBron or Chris? It was probably both of them. Both of them for sure.

We knew where LeBron stood all along. He made it. He made that declaration early on in the process. They understood. Like, when you're talking to Chris Paul and LeBron James, even though LeBron James is not a part of the executive committee, he does have power and sway. And, you know, I reported on, whenever it was, that superstar call.

That it was LeBron, Chris Paul, Kawhi Leonard, Damian Lillard, Westbrook. I forgot who else. Stephen Curry. But they all said, we got to make this work. We got to go out there and play. And look, Bill, can you imagine? Say the player said, no, we're not going. We're not going we're not we're not risking our lives we're not risking our safety right then the owners from them will they will opt out of that cba

for sure and they still might anyways but if they opted out then they would say you know what guys you guys cost us you know millions and billions of dollars by not coming out. We have to factor that into these new CBA. So, you know, I think the players looked at that and felt when I say players, I'm going to say the superstar players. They looked into that and said, you know, if they can promise us they can give us the safest measures as possible over there. It's in our best interest to go out there and play. That call was the most positive moment of this whole last four months. Because I had been kind of waiting for, if this is going to happen,

the superstars have to kind of drive it a little bit. I thought the dynamic of who was on the call was really interesting. And the fact that Dame was on the call, for a variety of the call was really interesting. And the fact that Dame was on the call for a variety of reasons was really interesting. You've, I mean, you were kind of, how old, how old was he when you started covering him? Was he a rookie or were you, were you there when he was a rookie? Yeah, I was, I was his beat writer. Yeah. So you've watched him evolve over the last eight years.

When did you feel like he was an actual franchise superstar this was a guy you could build a 50 win playoff team around man i i knew he was special he came in the summer league and i know assembly but he came in the summer league and just dominated that performance man dominated that whole alley and so i knew there was some type of potential. But back then, and even still today, that's when it started to slowly become a point guard league. That's when the point guards were. Even Nash was at his peak, I think, at that point. Yeah, like tail end.

Yeah, tail end. He was with the Lakers. The reason I know he's with the Lakers, that's funny. Dame, because Dame is the one that injured Steve Nash. First game of Steve Nash's Laker career, and it was Dame's first game. And he injured Steve Nash. Like, knee to knee, Steve Nash never recovered. That was it.

So I kind of went off topic right there. But it was just a dirt of point guards out there. I'll be honest. I didn't think he would climb up to that category. But to see him evolve and when the Marcus Aldridge requested his trade and eventually became a free agent and went to San Antonio, he just got more leeway with organization. And he's just – I told him.

I'm honest. I didn't see this coming. I thought he would be good, maybe make an all-star or two. But, you know, he's definitely up there, somebody you got to consider. You know, it's debatable who's the top footballer in the league. Most people will say Steph, but, you know, you can't just say that. The league really evolved in his favor, which, you know,

you think like by his second year, 2013-14 season, that's when the threes really started to kick in. I remember I found this old email. We had a Grantland NBA preview email. We'd done this whole four-hour meeting about topics we wanted to write about before the start of the season. This is before the 2014 season.

One of the angles that was in the email was like, are threes going to ruin basketball? And I think, I think we probably actually even wrote the piece. Cause you could kind of feel things shifting where it's like, wait a second.

Are these, are these teams going to be shooting 33 as a game? Is this where this is going? This, that seems crazy. And obviously that not only is that what happened, but it's what happened, you know,

on steroids. And for somebody like Dame, it was perfect. But I always thought the whole LaMarcus-Dame thing was so fascinating to watch from afar where, for whatever reason, LaMarcus, it was like the classic movie poster where LaMarcus didn't kind of want to accept that both faces should be the same size on the poster. He had that thing like, this is kind of my team. I'm not. And you could feel the Dame thing coming.

Why do you think he didn't accept that this was like the perfect guy to play with? Well, LaMarcus is a guy who, you know, he felt he was underappreciated his whole time there in Portland. Like when he came in, the team was Brandon Roy's. Then at a certain point, they tried to anoint Greg Oden to be in the face. He always felt like he was being dismissed.

Lamarcus, he didn't really vibe with the culture of Portland. There's not a lot of diversity over there. He didn't get out much. Another thing, too, Dame is just no ego. I think

some people have an ego to a certain extent, but I'm just talking about his ego is not to the point where he feels like he's above anyone else. I remember there would be situations when the last couple years of the Marcus being there, I think they played two situations when, like the last couple years of the markets being there, I think they played two years together,

I believe. My mind serves me right. I think it was, yeah, it was three, I think. Play three? Yeah. So there would be situations where the Blazers would pitch commercial

ideas, poster ideas, and to LaMarcus, and he would turn them down. He wasn't outgoing like that. He would turn them down. And then they go to Dame, and Dame's like, yeah, I got you. This kept happening. This kept happening. And soon as it ended,

now you know it, the whole city is flooded with images of Damian Lillard. So and that that helped to build his popularity. And so now, you know, he's considered, you know, Mr. Blazer, arguably the all time greatest blazer. Right. You know, in history. So and I think once the market started seeing that, I think he probably took it as like they're trying to give him my spot. And that's not that's not what it was and dame and lamarcus ended up talking about that later on uh just about that confusion because dame never had a problem with lamarcus i don't think lamarcus had a problem with dame it was just the fact that he probably thought there was inner workings going on behind the scenes

that were trying to catapult dame over him and that rubbed in the wrong way. And then, you know, he goes off to San Antonio. Well, remember his last Portland year? He was fucking awesome that year. I think he was like 25 and 10. And in the playoffs, he was like 26 a game. And it was really like he hit a level that I got to be honest, I didn't think he was going to be able to get to. I never thought he was going to be like a 25 and 10 guy. And the combo of them, you think about, he ends up going to be honest. I didn't think he was going to be able to get to. I never thought he was going to be like a 25 and 10 guy.

And the combo of them, you think about, he ends up going to San Antonio. We don't know Kawhi is going to be Kawhi yet. And it was like, wow, he's going to San Antonio for Popovich. But then he ends up with Kawhi.

So he's played with two of the 10 best players of this decade, but has, I don't think ever even gotten to a conference final. He's going to be an interesting Hall of Fame case. Yeah, and you look at Bill, you look at both situations. He goes into a situation

and he felt like he was pitched on being the man. Right. They didn't know the Kawhi thing was coming. Didn't know it was coming, just like you didn't know Dane was coming. And so he left to be in the situation to get away from the situation he was at it ends up walking into another one that

is even uh you know even worse situation you know looking at from this standpoint yeah he's had some interesting what-ifs during his career like even you think when he got drafted, we did the redraftables of that draft and Chicago takes him too and then flips him for Ty Thomas. And he really just should have gone to Chicago and he would have been with this young nucleus that instead of going to Portland where they get two years of Brandon Roy, then he gets hurt.

And it's just basically craters until Lillard miraculously shows up. Thanks to Billy King. I, I remember going, I think it was Lillard's rookie year. And I, he, I went to a Clipper game and I had really good seats. It was one of the few times I've sat courtside on the actual, on the, when you're at like mid court, which is actually a weird way to watch a game, but Chris Paul just just like manhandled lillard and and i'm watching it going i like lillard but man this is like watching somebody at the all madden level play somebody at like the all rookie level he had so many more tricks he was so much more powerful

and it was really and i left that game thinking like yeah little it'll be fine he'll be he'll shoot some threes. He'll be fun, but he'll never be anything. And then to watch the way he evolved has been, you know, spectacular. And I'm with you. I think there's a statistical case for him versus Curry. I would still take Curry every time. Yeah, that's, you know, I think it's, that's fair.

That's fair. Hey, wanted to take a quick break to remind you, Showbiz Kids, our new documentary from Ringer Films and director Alex Winter. It premieres on HBO July 14th tonight, 9 p.m. And if you don't DVR it or you don't watch it live, you can eventually catch it on demand later this week. Really proud of this one.

It's an immensely satisfying doc. And if you like Hollywood and pop culture at all, highly recommend it. Wanted to make sure that it was on your radar. It's not like there's anything to watch right now. And this is really good and you'll really enjoy it. So Showbiz Kids, HBO, 9 p.m., July 14th, which is tonight. Check it out. Back to Chris Haynes.

Yeah, I've always admired your story. I'm a big fan of creating your own breaks. I know I certainly did way, way, way back when, but you basically made everything that happened to you happen. And, you know, you were in your late 20s. When I was 28. And you're working as a security guard and a freelance NBA writer and trying to make stuff happen. You already had kids at that point. Like what kept driving you? What made you not want to give up?

Bill, I just wanted a cup of lead. I wanted a cup of lead. And, you know, I just wanted to cover the league. I wanted to cover the league. And, you know, I graduated from college late. I took the 10-year plan, education plan. You know, you have dreams. You know, I played college ball. You know, you have dreams of trying to make it that way. Then reality hits. You're not good enough. And so I wanted to cover the league. That was it. And so I'm about 28 at this time. I'm in Fresno. Really never left Fresno, Fresno, California.

Really never Fresno all my life. And I have friends that are going to jail. I got, you know, all type of shit going on around me that's not positive. So I'm like, and I've already had, at that time, I had two daughters, my two oldest daughters. So I'm like, man, I don't want, I really don't want to raise them around all this. And so I graduated from college, Bill, and I'm like, I want to cover NBA. I want to write. I want to write.

And so I started looking at games, and I would just write stories off of games and send them to different publications. And they were like, some of them was like, yeah, you got talent. You're cool. We can work with you, but you have to be in the NBA market in order to for us to give you a break. We can't pay you, but

we'll get you credential. And so when they said that, man, somehow I convinced the wife to move to Portland. I picked Portland because I was just hella scared to go to L.A. I'm like, there's no way I'm making it to L.A. And in Sacramento, I did one year of junior college basketball in Sacramento. So I've been there.

Like, let's go to Portland. It's not too far, but it's just close enough that if I fail, we can come back home. It was the build. Going to Portland was the best decision, one of the best decisions of my career, man. Like, if I pick any other opportunity, I don't know that it works out, but I go out there to Portland and I couldn't get a job. Here I got a bachelor's degree in kinesiology. You know, that's what the degree you need to be a PE teacher. And I could not find a job. The only job I could find was being a security guard at a high school and a security guard at an apartment complex.

So I did that during the day. And then at night when the Blazers were home, I would go cover some of those games. And I did that for a year straight. Who were you covering the games for? It was Slam Online, Slam Online. And it was a site that's defunct now, Pro Basketball News. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's defunct now, Pro Basketball News.

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I did. I did that for a whole year. And then, like, towards the end of this year, I always got to credit Dwight James, long-time sports columnist there in Portland. He's working for Comcast Sportsnet Northwest,

and they're the TV partner of the Blazers. And they were looking for their first Blazer beat writer. Somebody to cover the team, go to all the games, be on TV three, four times a day. Long story short, I got the job. And that's how it went on. So I went from never flying on planes, went from never being on TV to just flooding with TV obligations. So I just learned on the fly. That's kind of really how I got started.

That's amazing. And the best part is you picked the right city because that is a top five. We care about basketball more than anything else. I always call them the Portland soccer moms, the fans. Because they don't have any other teams. It's like all the four major sports combined into one team. So they care about 365 days a year,

every single thing that's happening with them. And Bill, that's funny because you hit the nail on the head right there with that point. And that's how I would cover the team. I would notice like Will Barton at the time, he was like the 4 for 15 man on that squad. He wouldn't get any burn. But when you write something over there about Will Barton at the time, he was like the 4th or 15th man on that squad. He wouldn't get any burn. But when you write something over there about Will Barton, they care.

Right. They care. But when I went to Cleveland to cover LeBron when he announced he was going back, I tried it a little bit, that same format over there that I did in Portland and Cleveland. They don't want to hear it. They don't want to write it. Matthew Della Padola, no. You know, Joe Harris at that time,

no. It's LeBron, LeBron, LeBron, sprinkling Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love, but LeBron, LeBron, LeBron. And that's when I realized, okay, different markets calls for different ways of covering teams. I noticed when

I was writing columns back when I used to be a writer and they would take the paragraph I wrote about the Blazers and it would be this long blog post on Blazers Edge about something I said about whatever. And then when the podcast really started to take it off and I

would have Zach Lowe on and we would have this throwaway two-minute conversation about the Blazers. It would be another like 2000. I was like, these guys are crazy. I kind of loved it though. I love how passionate they are. How long, how many years did you spend in Cleveland? I did two years. So I left after, um, I left after they won that championship. And then I went to ESPN and, and start, uh, covering the Warriors from there. What was your LeBron strategy when you got to the team?

How did you handle, all right, I got to win this guy over, but he's one of the most famous Americans we have. How do I cover this guy? Yeah, I had a little bit of a relationship with him before I went to Cleveland. And I think obviously that played into me getting a job. It was funny, like I was in Portland, Bill. So I was covering the Blazers. And where I came from, like, Bill, like, all I wanted was to have a job,

a car, and a 9-to-5. And I felt like I made it in life. Like, that was it. That was it. And so, like, as my life went on and i start my career started to take off you know i started getting bigger goals and so i'm in portland now and i feel like i made it yeah i'm a little local celebrity whatever you want to call it i'm on tv three four times a day like i'm loving it like this is the pinnacle people are talking to you when you're getting

a soda the 7-eleven yeah 7-eleven walk through the concourse, they want to take pictures with you. So I made it. This is it. But, Bill, this is what changed. Like, I started seeing the respect that national riders get when they come into town. So you see a national rider come into town, and you see they open up the red carpet,

take on the areas of the practice facility that beat writers aren't allowed to go with you know and then you see and you see that night or that morning they come in and drop this story has so many news nuggets in it you know you're like damn they just gave them all that access and this and that and so you just saw the level of respect that national writers get i'm like i want I want that. I want that. So from that, from that day on, you know,

I, you know, then I started noticing the game. I'm like, man, there's certain stories that local people just don't get, you know what I mean? I'm doing all this work trying to buy the best coverage possible, but there's still stories that don't come to me because I'm this local guy.

You know, they don't think I had that reach or whatever. Well, because every player has their own little inner council of their media strategist or PR guy, whatever. And if they're going to give a story to somebody, they're not giving it to the guy in Portland.

They're giving it to the guy at ESPN.com or whatever. Yeah, exactly. And people don't know like players, they don't, you know, they don't control most of the time where the story goes to, you know. So so my mission from that point on was like, all right, I want to become a national guy.

And so I felt like in order to that last year in Portland, Bill, I started venturing out. Like so the Portland Blazers stories, Portland Troubled Stories that I would break. You know, those same contacts, those same executives, those same agents, those same people you talk to about the Blazers, I started asking them about other players now on other teams. You know what I mean? And so I started breaking stories on other teams while I was a Portland Trailblazer beat writer. And then people started – I look on the Internet, people started saying, well, who's this cat from Portland breaking this Miami Heat story?

What credibility does he have? And so I'm like, okay, they still not giving me my respect. I'm like, all right. And so when LeBron announced, I felt like I had to make that next move. I got to go on a bigger platform. So when LeBron announced he was going back to Cleveland, I'm like, okay, that's a step. And so I know I'm going around dancing around your question, but that's why Cleveland's job, they had like over a thousand applicants. And I had a relationship with LeBron and his people before that

because I started a year prior. You put the work in. Yeah, breaking news outside of Portland. And so that's how I was able to get in. And, you know, he already knew me when I got there. It just grew from the time I was there. By the time he got back to Cleveland, he really understood how to handle the media. And there's been some good pieces written about this where he would have his four to six guys and he would kind of,

I always call it watering the plant. He made sure he watered the plant with, with certain guys. Right. And when you're around somebody every day like that, it's hard not to, it's hard not to feel like, well, I'm definitely not going to snake that guy. This guy's, this guy's been good to me. And I think some guys never realized that. I think he's been one of the best guys to, to kind of not only realize that,

but the way he's handled that. Cause it, it really does seem like he handles the media probably as well as anybody other than maybe Curry. Right. Yeah. He gets them. Like he gets, he gets the media and in Cleveland,

it was myself, Jason Lloyd, Joe Barton, David Miniman. And so, yeah, he would take care of us. But, Bill, I remember, and I've had this approach ever since then, but I can't remember the story. I wrote a story about, like, his leadership tactics. Because that first, like, five months of his tenure, you know, it was like when he was like subtle shots being taken at Kevin Love online.

Right. It was like little things going on. And so I wrote about his leadership tactics and how things must be changed and adjusted. And so I remember like a few days later, he pulled me to the side. He was like, yo,

Chris, he said, I don't mind you writing or taking shots if you feel it's necessary. But he was like, at least come to me and ask me why it is that I do it this way. Why do I treat this player that way? Why do I do that? He said, now, if you still feel that you need to do it your way and write what you want to write, then go ahead. But at least get my perspective.

And he said, I won't fault you for writing what you write but at least hear from me why it is i'm doing it this way and so from that point on bill i was like you know that's that's fair that's that's logical you know because i'm just seeing it from what i see you know i don't know the behind the scenes of context i don't know context why why why he did that that night and so from that point on, like if I have a negative story or negative subplot to write about an athlete, you know, I'll text him. I'll call him.

I'll hit him up and say, hey, I'm going this way. I just want to get your perspective. And that's the right thing to do. It is. It's kind of, it's, I guess a heads up, but as you're giving the heads up, you might get something, you know, you might get one more piece of info that you need out of it.

So you left after 2016, right? And then you went to Oakland? Yeah, then I went to the Bay, correct. So did you see the Kyrie departure thing coming? Like when you left Cleveland in 2016, were you like, these guys only have one more year together and I bet it blows up? I didn't see it getting to that

point. But obviously, there was friction throughout those two years. It was never like... It seemed like a lot of those interactions that those teams had, Cleveland seemed like they were forced a little bit. Because LeBron is a guy he likes the teams to all be together. Like if one person

has an event, we're all going. You know what I mean? I'm having my party. I need to see you all there. And it seemed a little bit forced over there with Cleveland. Like with the Lakers, they genuinely love each other. They genuinely out-support them. I was at an event. JaVale McGee invited me to in LA.

And majority of the whole team was there including LeBron and AD like they get down like that and so it's seen it's seen for so I wasn't surprised Kyrie went that route but um I guess looking back now I guess you could have seen it coming but I want to say this real quick. When I went to ESPN to take that job in the Bay, I did not want that job. I did not want that job because I felt like I covered

the Cavs for two years. This is the highest beat, pinnacle you can have before coming national because that was my whole aim. I'm going national and so they talked me into it taking that you know taking the job and going to cover the warriors and i still espn did me wonders like i was still able to break news outside the warriors but i was still

having to focus on the wars but i remembered i was like i was concerned about the image the perception you go from covering thes in the middle of this rivalry and then going over and covering the Warriors. Right. You know what I mean? Like, I was like, and so I didn't hear from Bron the whole time since I left to go cover the Warriors. And so it was Christmas.

Bill, Christmas Day game and Warriors caps in Cleveland. First time I've seen LeBron since I moved over. I'm walking to the media room at halftime and LeBron is walking off the court going into the locker room. He sees

me and yells, you trained ass, blah, blah, blah. I'm saying? And I'm like, this fool. You trained ass, blah, blah, blah. So I'm like, oh, this fool. Okay. But I was concerned. And then at the end of that game,

I tried to go in the locker room. And LeBron's security was like, you can't go in. I'm like, I can't go in. I'm like, isn't all the media in there? He's like security was like you can't go in I'm like I can't go in I'm like it's not immediate in there he's like yeah you can't go in I'm like what's going on man why I can't go in he's like bro I'm sorry I'm like can you get somebody else and so one of the PR guys come in I think it was Tad he comes over pulls me out I'm like Tad what's going on why can't go in the locker room come on in Chris on in. As soon as I walk in,

Brian's just laughing. That's hilarious. But I didn't want to take that job. So he's probably 10% did feel like you were a traitor. It's an awkward feeling. And I was

concerned about that perception. Not from him, but just like I've never seen, I've never heard of anybody covering the Pistons. Like, well, Lakers or let's go Lakers and Celtics. I've never heard of a beat writer covering the Lakers in the middle of that rivalry and then going over and covering the Celtics. And then flipping sides.

Yeah, that's interesting. Even though I don't care who wins. But it's just like, and so I remember when I went to Golden State, Draymond was a little bit iffy on me initially. He was like, oh, you're a spy. You're sent over here by the Cavs. And they were serious. Like, he was serious.

I'm like, Dray, I ain't got, man, come on, man. I don't care who wins. I think that 2017 Warriors team is in the running for best team of all time. And it's interesting because I listened to the podcast I did with Duran. I did six of them, but the first one. So it's like March 2017. And he's so freaking happy. And it's like everything he ever wanted was happening with that team and how unselfish they were in the level of basketball and just not dealing with all the

bullshit and okc and kind of being able to be himself all that stuff and you can really hear it the whole podcast and then i would say the fifth one we did, which was during the 17, 18 season, it felt like something had shifted. And my theory had always been, he, he went mano a mano against LeBron in 2017 finals. I did a podcast with him the 36 hours after they won the title or 30 hours, whatever. And he really felt like I'm the best player in the league. Now everybody knows. I went toe-to-toe with LeBron. My team won. I played better than him.

And then he didn't get the credit for it. And it was like, ah, you chased the title. Doesn't matter. Blah, blah, blah. And all the stuff he thought he was going to get, he didn't get. And I don't think he was ever the same. What's your theory on the whole thing? I think Kevin Durant, he was the best player on that team.

Yes. Kevin Durant, he's a great player, but he wasn't, it was Stephen Curry's team. And I don't think he had a problem with that, but I think it was too strong of a narrative that he wasn't a true warrior. It was too strong of a narrative that he had to jump over there to beat LeBron. Even though head-to-head, KD did his thing. That big shot, that big three over LeBron, that's an iconic shot. That's an iconic moment. Both finals.

He was great. He went right at him. He was that guy, but it was still the fact that he was on the Warriors, people were not giving him his credit. You definitely saw his vibe change from the first year to the next.

Then, obviously with the Draymond incident that happened in L.A. Bill, I want to say this about KD, and this pertains to that incident. Is he sensitive? Yeah, he'll tell you he's sensitive. I mean, you know him pretty well too, Bill. But I have so much respect for him and his character i had i was

starting my own i was starting my podcast posted up with chris haynes when i first got my full-time national gig at yahoo right so i started my podcast and i asked him if he would be my first guest and he said yes and i'm like great great i got kd my first guest. And he said, yes. And I'm like, great, great. I got KD, my first guest, have my podcast popping cool. So that was a week before. No, excuse me. A few days before that incident in LA.

So that incident in LA happens. He was supposed to do it a week from now. So then two days later, that incident in LA with Draymond happens. And I'm like, fuck. Damn. Like, okay, this is content. But there's no way he's still doing this.

Like, because he shut off media. Like, remember, he didn't talk for weeks after that. You know how KD gets. Like, when he's mad, he just shuts off everybody completely. So I'm trying to be patient. I'm trying to be like the days are ticking. It's getting a few days to the day we're supposed to do it, which is a Monday.

And so they played the Rockets, I believe, on a Friday. And I haven't seen KD. I haven't spoken to him. And they were in Houston. So I made the trip to Houston for that game. It was a big game, Warriors-Rockets. But I really made that trip over there to see where we were at. Like, you know, are we still going to do this?

Because Yahoo has all the equipment, the crew, the camera crew. Like, they're invested. We already paid to have everything over there. So I go over there in the Rockets locker room. Excuse me, Warriors locker room before the game. And KD got his earphones on. He's in his zone. You can tell he doesn't want to be messed with,

but I got to go over there. I got to go over there. I go over there. I'm like, KD, what's up? Small chat. I was like, hey, bro, I know this ain't the time, but I just want to make sure. Are we still good for Monday? He's like, Chris, get the fuck out of here, man. I don't want to talk about this right now. Get the fuck out of here or something like that. Right. So I'm like, all

right, well, you know, no hard feelings, but just keep it on your mind. And so, you know, I didn't take offense to it, you know, but I had to go over there and say something. But the days went by, still no confirmation. The days went by. It was the night, Sunday night. And he still hasn't talked to anybody. Sunday night, I text him late, like 11. I'm like, KD, you know, it's supposed to be tomorrow at noon. You know, please still do it. You still do it. I got you, bro. I'll be there. Came and gave me the first interview for an hour. Gave me the first interview about the whole incident with Draymond. I was super jealous of it. Oh, you remember that, Bill?

You're talking to over-competitive Bill. Of course I remember. Oh, man. You remember that, Bill? Chris Hayden's got this, damn it. That's all the shit that went into getting that, man. I didn't know I was going to get it until the late night before. But he held his word and he did it, man. So I'm appreciative for that. I went to that game and I watched the whole thing.

And, you know, I'm the body language doctor. When I go to basketball games, I love watching the body language. So I watched everything, including Draymond not passing to him at the tail end of regulation, how KD reacted to it. And I just followed them because I was like, ooh, KD really kind of showed him up there. This is unusual. And then I just watched the huddle and the whole thing happened. And I knew it was

bad. I was tweeting from it. I think I might even videotape some of it and did a couple of tweets that night. And usually I don't do that, but I was like, this, something happened here. And you could see from even when they went back out at overtime, stuff like that. My theory though, is that it was going to happen at some point. That just happened to be the game. I think Draymond especially, he's somebody who just loves being on a team so much and the concept of team. He's so old school. It's like, you're on my side or you're against me. And that's how he feels about everything.

And as soon as KD had that one foot out the door heading into that third season, I might stay, I might not. It just felt like that was going to blow up at some point. And I don't know if there's any way to avoid it. You know, you think about the personalities, the situation, Katie obviously realizes that point. It's, it's Steph Curry's team. He's always going to be considered a hired gun and it became clear he was going to leave. And, you know, it's amazing. It didn't blow up sooner, right? It took, it was basically month three of the final season,

but it could have happened earlier than that. A lot of those issues could have been avoided. You know, I saw Draymond say that if KD would have told them what he was going to do, then it wouldn't have been all this confusion or escalated tension. Bill, I don't know that anybody has a right to know what you're going to do.

Also, I don't think KD knew what he was going to do. I think he just wanted to keep his options open. Yeah, well, I definitely think he knew what he was going to do after that incident, for sure. Yeah, agreed. But, you know, I don't think he has a right. He's a free agent, you know,

and you sign those deals to give yourself flexibility, to, to give yourself, buy yourself more time to make those decisions. And so I, I thought that part was unfair, but even with Draymond, you know,

Draymond's a player that he'll show you up and you take it. And then that's looked, that's viewed upon as Draymond, just a fierce leader, fierce competitor. Draymond's not used to somebody doing that. Cause KD was clapping at him after he didn't give him the ball. Draymond's not used to somebody showing like Steph is not going to do that.

Clay is not going to do that. You know? So that was just, I think it was just escalated tension and Dre's not used to that. I think he was also embarrassed because he made a bad play. He should have passed it. It wasn't. So I think he was mad at himself

too and then he's got KD doing this at him and he's like, ah. And he just kind of loses it. No, no doubt. Yeah, it's too bad. You think like the heat, those four years of the heat, the three years of that Warriors team, and 2000 to 2004 Shaq-Kobe, those are probably the three most memorable runs that a team had. And San Antonio was the most successful team of all those teams, but it's a little more, you don't really know like what, all right, could we say the 2003 to 2007 Spurs, but there's not kind of, I don't know the mystique about them.

There's not the, there's, there's nobody's having conversations about those teams. And ironically, those teams are really good, you know whatever reason, they didn't resonate the same way. I don't know. I'm bummed out because I really liked watching them. I thought it was one of the three best teams I've ever seen. No, you're right. You're right, Bill. And to the Spurs, maybe it has something to do with,

I don't think they ever won back-to-back titles. They were always kind of scattered through, which shouldn't take, it shouldn't take anything away from their greatness. Well, the 07 team was the best version of it, and they just drew the short straw in the finals because they played this

pretty terrible Cleveland team, where it was just like LeBron and a bunch of role players, and they killed them. And that, you know, if they had gone against even the 08 Celtics, if gone against even the 08 Celtics, if you just take the 08 Celtics, you move them forward 12 months and they have a slugfest with them and they win.

I think that team's remembered completely differently. No, you're right there, but that 07 team you mentioned, they were great, but that Spurs team, what year was that when they beat the Heat? It was... Oh, the 14th. That team was excellent. Yeah, the 14th team.

I've never seen ball movement like that, man. They were moving that ball around. Patty Mills seeking threes, man. That was beautiful basketball to watch. The Heat had no answer for that. I think that team, that team right there, was one of the best first-team teams. That was the team that figured out where basketball was going.

When you look back at it, because they've obviously watched a ton of old basketball games over the last four months, the way that team played, they didn't shoot as many threes as are happening now, but basically the style and the slashing kick and all these, they just kind of knew who they were. I remember going on TV after game four and being like, this series is over and people are like, oh, fuck you.

You're a heat hater. I'm like, they just won game three and game four by 20 points apiece. They don't have an answer for this. This ain't happening. Do you feel like with LeBron heading into this playoffs, is there a little bit of a last stand

aspect to him here? Or do you think he plays at this level for like, is it ridiculous to count out LeBron ever leaving his prime at this point? Does this just keep going until he's 39 years old? Man, Bill, I don't know, Bill.

I thought, I thought he was breaking down when I was covering in Cleveland, when he had the, he had a back injury and he sat out for like two weeks. And that was the most time he's ever sat out at that point. And that was, you know, that's pretty impressive. And so, I mean, a lot of time has got to come at some point, Bill. You think?

You know, I've seen him practice a few times. He's practiced out here. I know he's practiced, but, man, he's going to look good, man. I mean, I don't think we're going to see any rust during this restart. But it has to come. It has to come. But he keeps himself in shape like nobody else I've seen. You know, maybe Jordan.

They can say that about Jordan and Kobe. I think he's probably number one on the list. I remember talking to Maverick about this in 2016. I was like, what's the one thing people don't understand about LeBron? He was like, how much time and money he spends on his body.

People have no idea what he does day after day after day after day religiously and all the thought, money, energy, training, all that stuff, that's why he's going to be great for way longer than people realize. Like he really, and he was saying this in 16,

he was like, this isn't going to end. Now, how it ends is how it ends with Kobe in 2012, where you have a bad injury and then you can't put the time in on your body like that and you lose the eight months and i think that's how we've seen with older athletes who are great that injury when they can't do that day after day after day after day that's when it falls apart but he doesn't get hurt so you know that's what and that's what and that's where maintenance comes into today and i know a lot of people don't like this maintenance era or load management era but that's where that comes

into play they're kind of like we know the inevitable is going to come but yeah they hope with proper maintenance that they can prolong it and for somebody like lebron who takes care of his body maybe you can squeeze another year year and a half half off of getting into his tenure at a maximum level. If anybody can do it, it's going to be him that can play at a high level up to 40. Before we go, I got to ask you about media basketball.

Okay. You weren't in my media jam last year, Bill. I don't know if you knew this, but I'm retired. I've been retired since 2014. Okay, well,

I don't know if you knew this, but most people that played were retired. No, like, I'm retired. I don't... I left too good of a legacy

to go back and taint it the way I did that last... The last... I had one great comeback and then 2013-14, everything basically knees down went.

I just couldn't move the same way anymore. I was basically like, I'm a stretch four who just can't move. I was like, this isn't fun. I'm going up for a rebound. I see the rebound. I'm looking at the rebound and then somebody jumps over and gets the rebound. I'm like, I got to get out. What am I doing?

You got to box them out, Bill. You got to box them out. That's when you got to start using the fundamentals. You got to box them out. Well, how old are you now? I'm 38 now. Yeah, you wait. When you hit 40, you hit 40 every year one thing goes.

It's like, oh, I can't dribble with my left hand anymore. Oh, I can't rebound like I used to. Oh, it really hurts to box out. You just start losing things at 40. So who, give me the first team All-NBA for media basketball players right now.

Me? Strong start, anointing yourself. I have to I get it Me Who else was out there Damn people get mad

You know I'm going to put Dave McMiniman as my shooting guard Oh interesting He has a stroke I play with him a lot You know who's really good? I don't know if he's still playing because he might be older now, but John Schumann at the NBA.com was really good.

Yeah, he had that kind of a – he kind of had a Darren Williams type game. Like physical point guard. Yeah. He got the body. Yeah. I enjoyed his game. Yeah, he really knew what to do. I thought he was good.

Have you seen Chris Boussard play? game. Yeah. He really knew he knew what to do. I thought he was good. Have you seen Chris Boussard play? No. Okay. I heard he used to be able to play. So, but he's, yeah, he's almost my age now.

Buecher was apparently really good way back when. Is that right? Yeah. He was, he was, uh, like a scoring forward. You know,

who was apparently great was Dan Patrick. Who's now like in his 60s. Yeah, apparently in the ESPN games, he was really, really, really good for a while. He's like 6'4", 6'5". How tall is he? Oh, yeah. He was legit good.

Rosillo's good too. I think Rosillo's early 40s now, so I don't know if he plays as much, but he was another one. He was like a banger. Rosillo is early 40s now, so I don't know if he plays as much, but he was another one. He was like a banger. Rosillo big. Offensive game, yeah. Yeah, I can tell. I'll pull the shit out of Rosillo. I never, I mean,

Mark Spears is older now, but I'm sure he's like 6'5". I'm sure he had a run at some point. Yeah, he got 6'5", 6'6". Spears don't want that. It's tough, man. It's tough to pick five, but ain't. It's tough, man. It's tough to pick an off-bar. It's tough to pick 5, but ain't nobody messing with me, man. Well, you televised one

of those games, right? It was live stream. It was live stream. We had play-by-play. You know, we had the whole works, man. We had different camera angles. We had all those cameras that moved across the court, man. We did it legit. We would have did it this year,

obviously, but the pandemic. Did you think about having a media big three team? A media big three. That would have been fun. I have not, Bill. I haven't. Think about that. Think about that when the pandemic ends

seven years from now, when we finally have a vaccine. It would definitely be, I think media members would definitely appreciate that more, not having to run full court. That might work. True. True. That's another sign that you've turned early

40s. Yeah, no doubt. When half court becomes a lot more appetizing. No doubt, man. Give me your pick for the 2020 Bizarre Playoffs. Dang. I can't see how Milwaukee gets bounced. Obviously, with these conditions and everybody being on this long hiatus,

anything can happen. I can't see Milwaukee getting bounced out in the East. In the West, I will say this, Bill. If Portland gets to play any game, I think they win it. And if Portland is in this thing, Bill, to me, they're the most dangerous team in this league. I think if they get in, even if it's the Lakers, that's number one seed,

Portland has the potential to take the Lakers to the distance. And if they happen to get by the Lakers, you can see them in the finals, man. They're healthy. Nurkic is back. Zach Collins is back. Dame and CJ, they are, man, ultra motivated. I'm being dead serious. They're ultra motivated.

That's the scariest team out there for me. I'm picking Lakers Celtics. Of course you are. Of course you are, Bill. I like where the Celtics are at. The only thing that worries me is Kemba Walker had four months off and his knee still doesn't feel great. Yeah. I like the Celtics too. I like the Celtics too.

I like the Celtics too. I like the, here's my theory. Young, young legs. People were basically going to be playing every other day. It's going to be a grind. And I,

I am, I know other people have had this theory. I am a subscriber of the younger teams. It's an advantage. And you saw it in 1999 with a team like the Spurs who had Robinson when he still was throwing his fastball, but then you put young Duncan in there

and that dude could go all day. I don't know. I think the young legs help. You saw it in 2012 too. I think the young, the young legs help. You saw it in 2012 too, with that was the year. Okay. See made it right. And that was 66 game season packed playoffs.

And all of a sudden, okay. See, it's like, all right, we'll make the finals. We'll go. And it was young legs.

So I think from that standpoint, the Celtics are in good shape, but the Kemba thing, you know, there's always been rumors that that's why Charlotte basically wasn't ready to commit to him big time because they knew

like his knees weren't great. And the fact that it was only four months here and it's not like he has like a sprained MCL or something like that. This seems like it's arthritis, which makes me nervous.

You got to keep going. But no, to your point, Bill, about the young legs, you're dead on and you have to remember under these conditions where everybody is just being brought back like all of a sudden you know like the first probably all eight games is really like a training camp period you know i mean so who's going to recover the quickest it's going to be those young legs

it's going to be those guys so they definitely It's going to be those guys. So, they definitely have an edge there. But I just think Milwaukee has so much to lose if they don't get this. I think they feel the pressure. I think they make some funds. Okay. Chris Haynes, congrats on everything. Enjoy the bubble. Look forward to seeing you on TV. Sideline reporter, you'd have a mask on when you do that? How does that work? No, I won't have a mask on from my knowledge, but I think I'm still doing the interviews, but they'll be.

Have you seen the, what's the league? What's that basketball league that's going on right now? Oh, the TBL? Yeah, the TBL. So I think they're doing interviews where somebody holding this long stick mic and they kind of transport it back and forth. You have an eight foot mic? Yeah. I think it'd be something like that.

So those are the walk-offs right there. All right. Cool. All right. Stay safe. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. All right.

Take care, Bill. All right. We're bringing in Alex Winter in one second. First, Tiger is back. Tiger is back. That means we're in for an epic weekend of golf. And if you're excited as I am about his return, you want to celebrate with me on FanDuel Sportsbook. It's America's number one sports betting site for a reason. It's easy to use. They've got a

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Be sure to sign up using my promo code BS to claim your exclusive $500 risk-free bet. I haven't decided who I'm betting on this week. I'm waiting for the new episode of Fairway Rolling with Joe Hass and Nathan Hubbard, where they're going to... That podcast has been awesome, by the way. But they've been kind of on fire with predicting what's going to happen. So I'm going to listen to Fairway Rowling. I'm going to also join their little FanDuel league that they have. And I am going to decide who to bet on. If you want to bet, you could do it in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Indiana,

Colorado on FanDuel. You have to be 21 plus. You have to live in one of those states. First online real money wager only. Refund issued as non-withdrawable site credit that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See full terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. In West Virginia, visit 1800gambler.net. In Indiana, call 809-WITH-IT. Or in Colorado, call 800-522-4700. All right, bringing in Alex Winter right now.

He's somebody I've gotten to know over the last two years. I think he's really talented. And it was an absolute delight to work with him. And he did a great job in this documentary, Showbiz Kids, which you can find tonight on HBO 9 PM. Here he is. All right, my friend Alex Winter is here. He's in the middle of a whirlwind press tour. He's almost like a press tour carcass at this point, but I think I'm going to be the caffeine

bolt he needs. I got plenty of caffeine. I'm ready for you. Two years ago, you had an idea. We talked about a bunch of ideas you had and then you had this one yeah and it was the the whole process of this has been so enjoyable where it was just like that's a great idea let's make it and then we pitched at HBO and HBO's like great idea go make it and then you made exactly the film you pitched which is pretty much the only time in my career that's ever happened that easily. It's not always this easy, right? Right. Yeah, I know. And then I was like, wow, I'm using all this Tweety music as like temp. I wonder if Tweety would score it. Oh,

he will. Great. It's unbelievable. And we're finally here. Obviously, there's bigger concerns in life with the pandemic, but it sucks that we didn't get like, you know, the big premiere and all that stuff. But I still think it's really cool that it's coming at a time when people want content, any content. And this is a really good documentary. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's the only project I've got that hasn't been completely side-blinded by the pandemic. So I'm really grateful. You know, you've been great.

Ringer was great. HBO have been great partners. And they were like, let's bring it up in the schedule. So I'm really grateful. You've been great. Ringer was great. HBO have been great partners. And they were like, let's bring it up in the schedule. We're all stuck at home. And it's all been super smooth. So yeah, it's been a really good experience. I'm really grateful that we're putting it out in July. I just think that people are stuck at home and it gives them something to watch amongst all the other stuff. So I'm happy about that. Well, let's go backwards just for some of the people that don't know who you are, because you've done a whole bunch of things over the course of your career. And one of the few people that have gone from acting to just making documentaries mostly, and some people have tried that, but not a lot of people have done it successfully. But going backwards, you were a child actor, which is what made you interested in this whole

thing. You were a child actor in the 80s. You intersected with a bunch of people that I grew up watching. You worked with some of those people. You're kind of more all over the place in that decade than I think people realize. Your IMDb is action-packed. At what point in your life did you realize, I really want to travel backwards and talk about what it's like to be a child actor, not just a, oh my God, there are all these dangers and you might get hooked on drugs. There's so many more pieces to it, which was the compelling thing to me. When did you realize you want to tell that story? I think when I became a dad and I had kids and I looked at their childhoods, which were not in the

entertainment. I mean, I started professionally at nine years old and I actually cleaned through to 26. And I look at my kids when I got a 22 year old now when he was nine when I got a 10 year old now I look at them and I'm like there's no way like like right like there's they would be like they would be like cannon fodder you know um and so I then I started to think like wow how did I actually manage that and it wasn't like all like you said it wasn't all negative it was just full-on you know at 12 years old I, I was co-starring in a Broadway show, a giant show with a lot of responsibility. And my kids at 12 and 13 were drooling in the backyard and still eating dirt. And they're great kids and they're really smart. It was just so

unlike my childhood. I began to think, well, there's a lot of things about my childhood that were very similar to my kids because I was just a kid. And there are a lot of things that are like literally like an alien from another planet. And I never felt like I'd ever seen that conveyed in a film. Like I never felt that anyone had ever showed me anything remotely like what my experience was. It was like, as soon as you started talking about being a child, it was like, okay, we're going to just talk about sexual abuse. We're going to just talk about how crappy your transition into regular life was. Or drugs. Or drugs.

Or your terrible stage mother. Or like all of these sort of cliches, which still abound and still grab eyeballs. And these things do happen. But it was such a fragment of my experience and not the whole experience. And I was even someone who had extreme trauma. I couldn't even say, I have friends, have friends like, you know, I guess I'm throwing them under the bus. I have friends like Elijah Wood who literally have no problems and no neuroses. And he's just a perfect human being. And, you know, I love him dearly. And he just sailed clean

through. I didn't sail clean through, but I had a great time and I don't regret it. And I'd never seen that expressed. I'd never seen that expressed. I've never seen the real full spectrum of that experience expressed. And that's what I really wanted to do. Well, I remember the first time we talked about it, seriously. And having lived in LA and my kids have grown up here and especially my son, who's a really charismatic kid

who in the wrong hands, I think somebody would be like, oh, we should start auditioning you around and things like that. And my attitude, and when I would talk to other parents about it, why would we do that to him? Why would we want him to have that life? And so I was always looking at it in the prism of, is it worth it? Even for the people who succeeded, was it worth it to go through all that? And then the more we talked about it and you talked about the film you wanted to make, I think the piece that I never had really considered before that I was so fascinated by was the concept of failing when you're like 12, when you're like, you've spent a year making this movie, you're 12,

you don't know any better. You think it's going to be this massive success. And then it bombs and you feel like the biggest loser in the world. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't have the psychological capacity to deal with that kind of rejection, that kind of disappointment. Your expectations are all over the place. It is a very,

it is a world where your fantasies do come true in a way. So your nightmares can come true too. Like I talk about this, but I remember the first time I stepped on a Broadway stage at 12, 13 years old, it was a giant theater. It was in a huge hit show. I was carrying the show with the duet. It was like paradise. You know, I was a kid who'd grown up loving movies and theater. And there I was opening a big Broadway show at a really young age. And it really was great and a joyful experience. And yet there was a lot almost immediately that was not great. So it was a very complicated ball

of wax from the very beginning. Yeah. I remember really the last couple of years, sometimes when I have actors or actresses on the podcast and they had a child actor background, now I'm always so fascinated in that part. I remember Ethan Hawke was on talking about how he got Explorers and Explorers was supposed to be this massive movie and it wasn't. And then he went back to school and people were making fun of him. Cause you know, Oh yeah. Explorers that sucked. And he was just like completely devastated. Yeah. And that's,

that's the piece of the the child acting child singer whatever where the whole failure component which you really dive into in your film that i thought that resonated with me the most yeah it's really interesting i mean that's why i opened the film that way with diana sarah carey you know who had this who had the biggest career you could have at a time when no one, she was literally the only child star on the planet. And so that's literally being the one, right? She's Neo, basically. And then by seven years old, her career is over, like flat out over.

And she's like doing extra work by 12. Like when my career was just starting, hers was already done. And she was out the industry by 17 completely. So, I mean, that's an insane trajectory when you think about the age that she was having to try to process all that. And she spent a good deal of a good chunk of her adulthood just trying to make sense of what the hell had happened between zero and seven. And then, you know, we were thinking about the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, 2000s, each decade, there's different kind of third rail things you have to worry about, right? Right. In the 70s, it's a fucking free-for-all.

Brooke Shields is making pretty babies. She's 13 playing a hooker. That would never happen now. Yeah. The 80s, cocaine has become a real thing. Yes. That's when predators start going into the business in a real way. And that's 80s through the 90s. But then now you move into this century, some of those things, we've learned how to litigate them. We've learned how to really worry about who's on a set, things like that. But now social media has become the most dangerous thing. And that was a tough one for us to figure out. How much do we do with social media? How tough is that for a child actor where you get an instant feedback? You could get just crushed

on Instagram and your mentions. How do you handle that? So what was your mindset of how to include that versus the old stuff? Well, I wanted to find a kid that had gone through the kind of Disney machine at the time the internet was really taking off and that was a very short list of people that I knew would be good on camera and compelling. And that's why I went after Cameron Boyce. And he was the person that I really wanted the most out of all of the kids that I had on that

list. And I mean, I have to sort of not bury the lead and talk about the fact that he died of an epileptic seizure a year ago. And it was absolutely devastating. He was just the greatest, greatest kid. And he was only 20 years old when he passed, but from five to 20, he was on fire and the thing I loved about Cameron was like I knew I wanted to show uh I mean there's so much of a stereotype in this industry like it's oh what kid would want to perform I mean there are a lot of kids who don't want to perform right but there are kids who really do want to perform like who are going to their mom and dad who aren't even in the industry and saying no you don't get it I want to be on stage. I was that kid, right? Cameron was that kid. Mara Wilson was that kid. I mean, my parents were kind of aghast, right? They were very effete,

kind of college professor, snobby people. And they were like, you want to do what now? And so it was, I wanted to show the passion that sometimes does come from someone that young who's really born to be on stage. But then if you're doing that in the modern era, then every single mistake you make, every pimple, every screw up online, every girlfriend that dumps you,

like even your very first kiss, whatever, it's all documented on social media forever. It doesn't go away. It's baked into the chronicle of our times. So Cameron was a really good way into that because he obviously had navigated it successfully, but he was not like, no one is that thick skin. He's a human being and he was sensitive. And I really wanted the perspective of someone who would be honest about what that was like, but who hadn't been so crushed by it that they couldn't even communicate the experience. Well, now you're seeing the cycle of fame for young people is now condensed and you're seeing it.

I watch it with my kids, like these TikTok stars and YouTube stars that they become enchanted by. And those people are done in six months or nine months, 11 months. They were riding high. They're huge. And then they're just gone. They're discarded for the next one. So I can't even imagine what it's like in that universe. At least when you're an actor in the 80s, 90s, you could move on to the next role, the next thing. In this, you almost only have one chance. It's true. And even when you're performing, even if you get rejection, unless you really just don't want to do it and not put it, because you know this, it's the same in sports. You may not have been born with like God-given superstar talent, but if you really want something

and you're willing to work really hard at it, you will get somewhere, right? And it's the same in the entertainment industry. want something and you're willing to work really hard at it, you will get somewhere, right? And it's the same in the entertainment industry. And so for the kids that really want it and work really hard, they do get somewhere. And that positive reinforcement, when you do get like what happened to Ethan Hawke in Explorers, he might have crushed him for a beat, but he picked himself up. He dusted himself out. And he knew he was good underneath it because he knew he was willing to do the work and that he had passion henry thomas same thing he was like finished et went through a lot of shit in his adolescence a lot of stress in his adolescence you know but he knew he'd had enough positive reinforcement he's

like you know what i know i'm good like i know i'm good and he picked he dusted himself off and he's done great work as an adult so i think that that's the thing about and you and i talked about this when we first started talking about conceiving the movie, you know, about why we didn't want to just include YouTube kids, you know, why it wasn't going to just be so broad that we were going to include, you know, social media stars because it's a very different phenomenon and what they're known for and what their skill sets are so different that you're right.

If you're famous for basically hanging out in your living room and like, you know, looking at unboxing things, then what really separates you from the next person that people want to watch you unboxes things in their living room. Like you don't, how do you develop any sense of worth around that? That's going to carry you through to, to rebuilding yourself. Well, our joke was always like, that would be the sequel after this one did well,

where you just, that's, we just move into that generation with the next one. Yeah. I think one thing that was fascinating and unlike any other documentary that I've been involved with was the guest list of people we were interviewing was so important to have a good mix of people, a mix of different voices and experiences. And then there's this whole other subplot of, you knew all these people,

and there were some other people who seemed to be interested. And half the time it was, I can't do it, but that sounds like an awesome documentary. I wish I could. And that was the message over and over again and I really wonder after this comes out who you're going to hear from like ah shit I should have fucking done an interview with you god damn it I'm already hearing that that's already happening

that started happening as soon as the trailer went out I started getting calls from people that I knew who were like you know this was and look this is not something because I'm great or anything. It's just, we did it. We, we told sort of the inside story from the perspective of the people involved, the subjects that we got, you know, were really great and did an incredible job and were very honest and very

compelling. So, you know, I got a lot of people, even casting directors from like huge casting directors from you know the age of doing big kid stuff who are just like this is the story that no one's ever told like it's someone's finally telling it and you know i have friends who who had kids who were big stars who were who were parents who were like this was i watched the trailer and it was literally my life like i just got that from the trailer. So it's just something that no one, you know, a group of us had never, us meaning a bunch of child actors, had never gotten together and told our stories before. And it is weird. I mean, I remember when I first sat down with you to talk about it, we both kind of looked at each other like, why has no one done this?

It seems like someone should have done this at some point, right? It seems so obvious. Well, we were saying it could be like seven hours. Right, of course. It could be multiple parts. There was so much material. You had 80, 90 years of material we could have dove into. Yeah, it's true. It's true. So I'm very grateful that we got to do it. I do think it's, to your point, it's the beginning of a conversation. It's not the end of one.

There's a lot more to be said. Mara wrote a really good book about her experiences. I will probably someday write a book about, you know, some of my experiences in that space. But, you know, there's a satisfaction in knowing that that group of people got to tell their stories their way. And I also was very happy that we got really great responses from the subjects themselves when they saw the film. And one of my favorite responses I got, I mean, Evan and I have had, you know, great interchange about the cathartic nature of having done it for both of us, frankly. Evan Rachel Wood for people listening. Yeah, Evan Rachel Wood, yeah. And obviously I feel so protective of the people in the film.

You know, you feel like both parental and sort of fraternal with your subjects. But Mara Wilson said something so lovely to me the other day that, you know, she had said something in the interview. We had a lot of trust going in. My story is very well known to most of my fellows in the business, so they know what I've been through. And so there was a good level of trust there. But, you know, she'd said a couple of things that she said she didn't usually say in interviews, and she not regretted it, but was a little concerned at how that would come off. And then she watched the doc, and the thing that she was – I don't even know what it was she's ever told me, but she said the anecdote that she was so concerned about

was sandwiched between one actor saying the exact same thing and another actor saying the exact same thing, and it kind of neutralized her own feelings of either remorse or sensitivity around that anecdote, like around that part of her past. And that really happened to me, too, making the film. Like, I realized that even things I'd stigmatized about myself, which are kind of abstract, they're not the things you would think. They can be subtle because so many weird things happen to you when you're a kid. It kind of got neutralized by just hearing so many people tell the same story and, and from such a

heartfelt place. And that was, that was cathartic. And I'm hoping when the film goes out into the broader public, that that's kind of the sort of net result of, of the impact that it has. Well, there was, we were dealing with the stigma of what the film could be to people where they're thinking like, I know I'm listening to you. I know what you're saying. I know you're saying it's not going to be like this. And then the film comes out

and it's 25 minutes on how River Phoenix died and 30 minutes on child predators in the late 80s. And then my interview is mixed into that. And I did feel like even though you were doing it and you had a lot of the relationships, it still seemed like there were some people that we tried to get that were just like, eh, it's just not worth it. Right. It's not worth it for me to give you the time. I don't know what this is going to ultimately be. And I think they're, you know, probably going to regret it. Yeah. I think that, that to be fair, when you're dealing with, with your childhood and events

that happened around your childhood, there's a lot of trust issues, right? Whether you're in show business or not. So if you feel like your trust has been betrayed, you're over the course of having been a child actor, you're always going to have some kind of, some level of vigilance, right? You're always going to have some level of, uh, this may be cool, but it's just like you said, it's not worth the risk. It's not worth me putting the wall down just to get betrayed again, 30 years later.

Well, this is why you're the only person who could have done this. I feel like it had to be somebody who was a child actor who made this. Otherwise it's like, you're not even getting the people you got. Yeah. Yeah. And they're certainly not going to be willing to say anything to me of any value.

And, you know, some of them I'd known a long time, even though I wouldn't say any of them, even the ones I know well, I knew their story. Like I didn't know, I know Henry very well.

I didn't know Henry's full story or Mila's who I've known since she was quite young. So there was a level of trust cause they knew I'd been there, but there was also, they came to the table, uh, prepared to be honest. And that was just super, you know, that was super lucky. I was really grateful for that. Um, but I also was very understanding of the people who didn't want to talk. You know, I would talk to people, they'd be like, I can't do this.

There's no, I mean, I would love to do it. Um, but I i just can't i can't uh tell these stories i can't revisit that period and it isn't all pain it's just a lot of times it's you know they feel it might be damaging for their career you know they feel like there's things they haven't told their own family whatever um or they feel like they already talked about it and they're good they're already on the record exactly yeah there's plenty of that. I mean, and frankly, we often didn't go after those people.

It was like, there's certain shot actors whose stories we know and we know, and we know like, we really need to hear them talk more about something that we already know intimately. And then there are people whose stories aren't particularly interesting, right? Who had like,

you know, there are people who I have huge respect for who have been really successful, but their lives are pretty uneventful and they, you know, they don't have that much to offer as far as their perspective on it. And then another decision we had to figure out is how involved are you and your story in this whole thing? The, you know, to mix results over the years with documentaries, we've seen people throw themselves in and they've either done it as a subject or they've done it just because they're like,

oh, it'll be cool if you hear my voice as I'm interviewing somebody. And it's like, I always operate from the standpoint of, I don't want to hear from you unless there's an awesome reason and it makes it better. Otherwise, let's not hear from you. But I thought we handled it right. But it was a really interesting thing to bat around and figure out what the right idea was. Yeah, I think it was important to examine the possibility of it or it would have been irresponsible creatively

from my end. And I did go so far as to assemble all my media. I went back and got all my child photos, all videos from my shows, a bunch of stuff so that Wes, Wes Cadwell, who cut the film, he and I could have easily sort of slipped me into the ensemble.

We did, I'm not even sure I ever sent this to you, we did actually do a pass where we tried that, where I just did it as VO, like as if I was in interview. It really did not work. It was exactly what we suspected it was. The whole, it was like a record scratch, right? The whole movie just stops. And you just

go, oh, the director's here now and he's going to tell his story. And, you know, I'm with you creatively. I very, very rarely like watching the filmmaker inserting them. It's a very kind of trendy thing to do right now just because we live in a world where, you know, we're playing a lot with the conventions of narrative and what even is a documentary and what is the line between a documentary and a narrative and, you know, where's the truth and where's the lie and all of that. And I get it. Some of those films are

interesting, but it's very, very distracting and it's very, it calls a lot of attention to itself. And the whole theme of the movie I was, that I wanted to make was that these stories are universal, that this is one conversation across time. And that doesn't work if I'm in it. It's just automatically not one conversation. It's my conversation. Like the only film I can think of recently that worked with the director in it

was Minding the Gap because he's such a fundamental part of the narrative. Like it's literally a coming of age, it's like stand by me and he's one of the kids. He had to be in that. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, but I almost, otherwise I almost never like it. I always feel like, oh God,

I always feel like it's an executive somewhere told the director, you gotta be in this, find a way to put yourself in. And the director kind of begrudgingly starts filming himself. I didn't want to do that. Yeah, one gimmick, my friend Jason Hare, who I did Andre with, Andre the Giant, but he just did the Michael Jordan thing. And he had this gimmick

in there when he would give Michael Jordan his iPad to look at some little snippet of an interview he had already done with somebody else. And then he would capture Jordan's reaction to the interview on the camera. And it was really effective and really smart. Most of the time, those ideas make the thing worse when it's like, hey, I'm coming in. And it's like, no, no, no, stay over there. What are you doing? Yeah. You know, let's talk about you in the 80s because you're in a whole bunch of stuff, but then you become the guy from Bill and Ted, which is another one of the themes we explore in this movie when you get pigeonholed

by one role and people just see you and they're like, oh, you're just this person in this one thing I saw. I can't accept you as anything else. How strongly did you feel like that happened to you? Um, it did from the standpoint that I was suddenly, I was, it was a phenomenon worldwide. So anywhere I went, I was recognized as Bill. I'd been recognized from the Lost Boys. I've been recognized from, from other stuff. And I came up on Broadway. And so I had the experience of like coming out of a stage or in signing autographs at 13, 14, whatever, doing interviews. I'd had an experience with having some sense of notoriety. Primarily, the way it impacted my life was the recognition,

was that, like Henry talks about in the film, I could not go anywhere on the planet without people freaking out because Bill was there. I would have people slide all the way across the floor, bars on their knees, doing air guitar up to my bar stool. And I mean, it was impossible. And God forbid, because Keanu and I have always been very close. God forbid the two of us were together anywhere. Forget it.

I mean, it's still like that. But back then, it was literally like a whole other thing. It didn't really impact me in terms of pigeonholing me because I stopped acting at that time. So it coincided, like, you know, I did all this acting from age 10 and I was on Broadway all the way from 12 until 17, every day, eight shows a week, two long running shows back to back, all of high school, all of middle school, all on Broadway. So by the time I got to college, and I, you know, unlike Cameron Boyce, I wanted to stop acting and go to college. I wanted to go to film school. And I went to NYU and I came out and I was directing and I had an agent manager

and I booked Bill and Ted and Lost Boys and all that while I was already directing. I was at propaganda and making music videos and commercials and I had a whole directing and writing career that was getting started. And my intention at that time was to phase out the acting and just focused on the directing. And it wasn't, it wasn't just a career move. I was, I was baked, you know, like I was very much like Evan and Will and Mara talk about in the movie. I just been, I'd been at it so long since I was so young. And I love to act, you know, and I love being in the Bill and Ted movies and everything,

but I was pretty fried and I just been under the public eye a little too long and I needed a break. Like I needed to just not have an acting agent and not be in Hollywood and not have that spotlight on me and just do my work quietly and kind of do my thing. And I wasn't really ready to come back until we did this last Bill and Ted movie. It took me 25 years. So, you know, it's a, it's an interesting phenomenon. I hadn't thought about that much, honestly, Bill, until I made the doc and I just heard the same story

over and over again from my subjects. I was like, yeah, that's really what I did. I hadn't given it a ton of thought because I was like, I always wanted to direct. I was like, no, I didn't want to just direct. I really wanted out. Well, that was the part that you're kind of hoping comes across when we're throwing around ideas

for something versus when you're actually, you're putting of hoping comes across when we're throwing around ideas for something versus when you're actually, you're putting all the interviews together and you realize it's undeniable. You could take somebody's story from 2018 and somebody's story from 1976, and it's basically the same story. Yeah. And all of these things have changed, but not really. Yeah. And I think that was the most shocking thing is like, you literally could have had one person from every decade starting in 1940 and made this film. Yeah. Yeah. And they're finishing like Cameron Boyce is finishing Diana, you know, a hundred year old woman's sentences with the exact same sentence.

So, you know, that was really, really interesting. So yeah, for me, I didn't, I didn't really get billed so much for that reason was like, it was around the time I made freaked. And then I was like, I me, I didn't, I didn't really get billed so much. Um, for that reason was like, it was around the time I made freaked and then I was like, I'm, I'm out of here. So can, can I ask you a Keanu question? Yeah, sure. It's a question I've already asked you, but I'm just going to do it for the podcast. Did you expect what happened to him over the last 30 years to happen? What, in terms of his career? Yeah, in terms of like Speed, The Matrix, John Wick. He's basically became, I think, one of the most bankable A-list actors of the last 30 years. Were there signs of that when you were working with him?

How would you explain it? No, it's not mystical to me because he's honestly one of my very best friends. Were there signs of that when you were working with him? Yes. How would you explain it? No. It's not mystical to me because he's honestly one of my very best friends, and we have grown up together. And I see a lot of him, and I have all the way along the path of his career. We've been very close. And the thing, again, you deal with a lot of actors, so you get it, but you deal with a lot of athletes too. Keanu started as an athlete, you know, he was almost pro hockey. Yeah.

And I haven't met anyone. I mean, literally anyone at the top of their game in our field who doesn't work harder than anyone else, like markedly harder than anyone else, and not neurotically and not workaholically, but in terms of focus and drive, like you don't have that career if you don't want it. You may even think you want it and not really somewhere in your heart want it. You won't have it, right? You have to, you have to want it and you have to be willing to work 10 times harder than the other guy to have it. He has, you know, Reeves has this, has a lot, a combination of intellect and drive. And frankly, a lot of really high functioning people that I know in my business and in Silicon Valley, because I've done a lot of stuff in technology,

have that. Like they're, they're very, very smart, but it isn't just talent and it isn't just intelligence. They will work markedly harder than the next person. And, you know, they taught you talk about rejection. You talk about the things that can punt people out of the business. I don't know anyone, him included, but not to, you know, not to psychoanalyze Reeves. Cause I feel this way about all those people sort of working at that level. They're all human beings. They all feel the sting of rejection and, you know, life can be difficult and you have shitty years or whatever, but they pick themselves up and they keep moving and they, and they, you know, they have that kind of resilience of like,

I'm just going to go at it. And Reeves has always felt very much like kind of a, kind of a poet athlete to me. I know that sounds a little airy fairy, but like, you know, he is an actor's actor. He's not a hockey player. And he's very studied in his craft and everything, but he's like a pro athlete.

He's like, okay, I had a crappy year. I'm going to keep training. I'm going to keep being my best. And there's a very good chance I'll come out on the ice next year and not have a crappy year. And lo and behold, he didn't. Right. Well, we did the rewatchables on Stand By Me.

It kind of an honor of your documentary coming out this week. It was either Stand By Me or ET. We picked Stand By Me. Cool. Mainly because we wanted to have the River Phoenix conversation at the top. And that was the guy from your generation. Although you're older than him a little bit. A little bit. Not really. Not that much older. Yeah, pretty similar. Yeah, I certainly knew him. But he's kind of the... He easily

could have been in this doc. We easily could have had a River part. And there hasn't been a River Phoenix doc. And everybody from that generation, I think, simultaneously revered him and is super protective of his legacy. Why is that? You know, he was a very, very lovely person from the few interactions that I had with him.

He was incredibly talented. He had a very clear artistic sensibility. But there's a protectiveness that we kind of all had coming up and uh sort of was like a a you know your brother your brothers and sisters you see each other at auditions you hear about people going through hard times uh his death uh i remember vividly and you know this was my whole social group at that time, including my friends who ran the Viper Room. And, you know, his death was like a was a was a blindside because, you know, it wasn't someone who was sort of out outwardly kind of Joe crazy party guy, even though, you know, there was drugs around all of us at that time. And I just think that it was such an intense shock to this kind of system of the community. There was a feeling of loss with him specifically, but there was also this feeling like it could have been you.

Yeah. There was a real relatability to River. And, you know, we all kind of checked ourselves when that happened. And we were all like off the rails on some level or another, all of us, myself included. And we all just kind ofey went through what he went through. I literally quit and left LA. Every person I know, not to get into detail, went through some stuff around that time that were from that group. It was sort of like the kind of lame parallel to the Summer of Love after Altamont, right? It was like the party of the 80s know, after Altamont, right. It was like, it was like the, the, the, the party of the eighties was over and everything got really dark for a little while in the early to mid nineties.

Yeah. You think about the cocaine era and the party era. Cause I, I just had Rob Lowe on my podcast and we were talking about he's, he's making San almost fire and 85 and they're just, they're getting it on. They're partying. He's got a place in Hollywood Hills. And nobody really knows that half the stuff they're doing is really that bad. They know it's not great, but they don't know. It's like, hey, man, people are going to die and you're going to lose all your stuff.

And he's just out and everybody's out. Everybody knows each other and you can't, your generation's like a tight, like probably a half generation after that, but it was the same thing. You're all out. It's the late eighties. You're just doing stuff unchecked. Yeah. And well, you know, I've worked on lost boys in 86 and that was the vibe. That was the eighties on full turbo mode and it was all go and there was a lot going on i mean thankfully joel was a really good den dad and that set was really safe um yeah very

comfortable and very professional and i truly mean that i got to see him not long before he died and we had a really really sweet chat about working together but i I mean, you know, at night, like away from the shackles of production, it was insane. It was totally off the rails. And, and, uh, you know, there was a price to pay for that. It just felt very strange to everyone that river was going to be the one to pay that price. And I think that was just incredibly unexpected. When was the last time you watched the last place? Um, I don't think I've watched that movie all the way through in decades. I think my kids have watched it, and I've sort of waltzed into the room to see a little bit of it. And I'm always struck by how gorgeous it is.

It's unbelievably well-crafted, that movie, for what it is, for this crazy genre movie about vampires. It's kind of half a comedy now. Oh, yeah, But it was then, I mean, we, we knew then that it was, you know, look at the way he handles the,

you know, Corey Feldman and like even us, like the whole thing was so grotesquely over the top. We knew there was like Kiefer and I knew like the thing. I don't think I knew watching it in the, in the mid eighties. I'm like cool vampire movie. And then you,

you realize 30 years later, like, Oh, that sack scene is completely insane. Oh, come on. How is that in a movie? Yeah. What's going on?

Close-ups of the sax guy. Yeah. Yeah, it's such, obviously I'm old and I'm in the demo, but I have such fond memories of so many of those movies because they've aged in such a fun way. We just did St. Elmo's Fire on rewatchables. That movie's insane now.

Yeah. And that was a huge hit. People are like, this is the big chill for that generation. It's like, that movie's bonkers. Yeah, it really is. But it's really funny. That air is so distinct. The hair. Yeah. All that stuff. It's really great. So what was the, doing this documentary, what was the thing you figure you know everything about this story. You're the expert. What was the, did you learn anything that just surprised you?

Was there a revelation that you were like, holy shit, I had no idea. I mean, there were many revelations. I think that the main revelation is the thing we touched on earlier. And I really had no idea, which was the universality of everyone's narrative. I mean, it almost like even my crew, like Angel, my DP, we would look at each other after an interview and be like, that's crazy. Like we had just come from doing one person who was, whether it was Diana at 100 or whoever, Jada, talking about come up in Baltimore. And then you've got Cameron. And you're like, the stories are literally identical. And by the time I got to Evan, Rachel Wood, who I knew her story, but I didn't know the nuance of it.

And she's talking about having that moment in her early 20s when she, you know, as great as her career was and as grateful for it as she was and as much as she wanted it. All of those things lined up. She still had that moment of pausing and going, who am I and what am I doing? That was revelatory for me, both thematically and personally. Like thematically, I just never had, I'd always wanted it to be like one conversation across time, but I'd never assumed it would literally be one conversation across time. But personally, it was really cathartic to hear all these different people tell my story. And because they were very considered people working through some of the things I'd worked through, because I've done a lot of work, some of the things I hadn't worked

through that I thought I'd worked through. So it was much more cathartic for me individually than I thought it was going to be. I've done so much work on my childhood and the stuff I went through and all of that. And I'm turning 55 in a couple of days. And I've been around a while. And I got kids and a good life. And everything is hunky-dory. But I did a lot of work. I rolled up my sleeves.

And at a certain point, I was like, something's not right. I better do some work, right? So I figured, I've done the work. I'm good. It's like Will says in the movie, but I was sitting and listening to people going, wow, there's stuff about myself and my own past. And it was weird, man, because I'm about to have Bill and Ted come out and I haven't been on camera in

a long time. And it like, it was a, it was a real head trip in terms of like really being brought back to my childhood. Like there I am playing a character I haven't played since I was a, it was a real head trip in terms of like really being brought back to my childhood. Like there I am playing a character I haven't played since I was 25, making a movie about being a child actor when I left the business intentionally and went through a lot of stuff. And like, I'm having, it was all that stuff was in my face at the same time. And like, and thankfully it was good. It wasn't bad, but I did have a moment of going, Oh, I have a lot more clarity of my own path than I've ever had. Just making this film and hearing these people, like I did have a moment of going, Oh, I have a lot more clarity of my own path than I've ever had. Just making this film and hearing these people.

Like I totally see what I did now. Like I was running, I got fried. I left at a certain point. I came back. Like I'd never really put the pieces together that clearly before. Well, I think it's a special movie.

And like you said earlier, it's kind of amazing. It never happened before. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad it it happened i think the actors that are in it are glad it happened it's you know that that's always my dream when i'm doing any kind of documentary is always are we doing something that i haven't seen yeah would i want to see this and from the moment you pitched it was like man i'd want to see that I would rather we did that than somebody else would just be jealous of it. And the experience was a pleasure. You're a really talented dude. And I was just really impressed with the entire process. It shouldn't be as easy as it was. I'm excited to see what the reaction is to it. And who knows,

maybe there'll be a sequel at some point. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see what happens. There's certainly more story to tell. All right. And who knows, maybe there'll be a sequel at some point. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see what happens. There's certainly more story to tell. So. All right. Uh, and good luck with Bill and Ted. Thanks man. Yeah. I'm excited to see what your kids think of that one. Yeah. Well, they love the first two. We made a movie. So if, if you like Bill and Ted, I think you'll like it. It is. Yeah. But now you're, but now you're the age you are now and you're their dad who they're hanging out with every day. And then all of a sudden you'll be on this 70 foot screen. Although hopefully maybe we won't have movie theaters then. I don't even know.

Jesus. No one does. Yeah. But I will be on some screen. That is true. You'll be on a screen. You'll be on a screen somewhere. All right.

Alex, thanks for coming on and congrats on the movie. I'm honored to be involved even in a small way. I thought it was really great. It was really great that we got to do it together, man. Thank you so much. All right.

All right. Before we go, wanted to play a snippet from the rewatchables about Stand By Me. This is a conversation Chris Ryan and I had

about River Phoenix. It's hard to watch this movie and not think about River Phoenix. It's hard to think about child actors and not think about River Phoenix. It's not hard to think about child actors and not think about River Phoenix. He was one of the greats, one of the best under 18 actors I think we've had in my lifetime. So Chris and I talked about this and

the whole concept of lost potential and how it relates to sports and acting and some other stuff. Here's that conversation. It's a snippet from the new rewatchables about Stand By Me. I want to dive into River Phoenix because it's really hard to watch this movie and not get swept up in how great he is and all the potential he has. And it's really an experience you only have a couple times with actors like this where you just know they're going to be incredible. I felt this way with DiCaprio in This Boy's Life. I felt this way with Natalie Portman in The Professional and Beautiful Girls where you're just like, that person is going to be a number one overall draft pick at some point in their life. And I

can't wait to see this awesome career they have. The best way I can explain the River Phoenix thing to people who are younger is another analogy that might be hard for people to understand when they're younger. But to me, it's like Len Bias for acting, where it's like, there's this Len Bias scenario where nothing bad happens to him. And he basically becomes as good as Charles Barkley or Karl Malone on the Celtics with Larry Bird and Kevin McHale. He becomes the forward version of Michael Jordan. He ushers in this whole new era of basically power plus ballet for an NBA forward. And he's just such, he's like probably one of the first NBA badasses that we have. And he has this whole career and we just think of him so fondly.

And in one minute it was gone. And I feel the same way with River Phoenix. The guy died when he was 23. And when you watch this movie, I think the potential of him and what he could have become, it almost overpowers the movie. And I mean it in a good way. It's his movie. It belongs to him. And it's impossible to watch it without just constantly thinking about what would this guy's career have been like? Do you feel that way too, watching it?

Yeah. I think that there are... When you think about great performances or memorable performances by child actors, they usually fall into one of two categories. There's kids who are great at being kids like Macaulay Culkin in Home Alone. Or Haley Joel Asman in The Sixth Sense, right? I would say he's the second category where he's incredibly precocious. It almost seems like an adult in a kid's body.

Like the way he reads dialogue, the way he seems to be interpreting the world. River Phoenix in Stand By Me is just like a full three-dimensional human being. It feels like there's no filter between actor and performance. What you get on the screen is absolutely uncut. And I think that was a hallmark of his performances that he did leave behind, whether it's My Own Private Idaho or something like Running on Empty, which I really love.

These movies that he left behind, no matter what age he was, he had an incredible raw humanity that was always on display. And the stuff he's doing in Stand By Me is absolutely ridiculous. It's off the charts how present and vulnerable he is, but also weirdly cool, even though he's just a 12-year-old kid. And you can feel the entire movie jump up into another stratosphere when he's on screen, which is obviously a lot. And how handsome he is, too. He's just so... Everything about him, it's a complete package. And my wife and daughter are watching it last night,

and both of them are like, God, he was so good-looking. He just had every single quality you would want if you were like, all right, we want a lead actor for the next 30 years. What would this person look like? It would be him. And what's crazy about it is Leo basically shows up. I don't know. He goes on Growing Pains late eighties and then eventually he's in Gilbert Grape and then he's in This Boy's Life and he starts to have a real career probably in the 91, 92 range. And it was really hard to watch Leo as his career took off, finally culminating in Titanic without thinking like, this is kind of what should have happened for River Phoenix. And I think he had issues pretty much within two

years of this movie. He's I think 15 when he makes this movie, 14 or 15 when he makes this movie. By the time he's making My Own Private Idaho, he's having issues. Yeah. And he's battling them basically for the rest of his life. And he ends up dying at the Viper Club of an overdose. And I think it was a big reckoning for the movie industry and the young actors is the same way that the Len Bias thing was a big reckoning in sports where it's like, hey, cocaine, this just took Len Bias. Let's be careful. What are we doing? I think with River, it was the same

thing for a whole generation of guys. Yeah. Hugely impactful death, especially on that generation of actors. I mean, I think you've heard Winona Ryder talk about it. Obviously, it had a huge impact on his brother's life. One thing that kind of connects to that is that when you watch him, when you think about these really great, great actors that we've had over the years, whether it's Daniel Day-Lewis

or Leonardo DiCaprio or even to some extent, Joaquin Phoenix, I always think of those guys as on an island. You don't think of them as part of a crew or a gang. River Phoenix seemed

like a really good friend. You can see in the movie his facility with Wil Wheaton's character and the other guys. He seemed like a sociable person in a real world. Not like, I am a actor made in a Petri dish who is just going to go off and learn this part and then

learn how to like be Abraham Lincoln or be Jack and Titanic or figure out the blood diamond. Not to knock Leo, but do you know what I mean? Where sometimes great actors seem almost unknowable and River Phoenix seemed like incredibly knowable in that way yeah and he has you know he has that monologue about the uh the milk stealing the milk money and then the teacher basically lying about him so she could keep the money for himself and it's like a four minute scene and it's about as good as anybody under 18 is going to do with this scene. And I think Leo had a couple of moments like that too, over the course of the first part of his career. It's so hard to find somebody, especially an actor who could just kind of show off all the

tools, you know, to borrow the basketball analogy, it's almost like when you go back and you read this stuff about LeBron when he's like a sophomore or a junior in high school and the Sports Illustrated piece comes out and they're like this is the total package this is everything you would want in a basketball player this guy has and I think River and Leo are the only two guys

in the last 35 years under 18 that you could have said that about where it's like, all right, let's check all the boxes of how somebody can become an A-plus list movie star. They were the only two people that were gifted with the car wash package. And it was something that I remember I wrote about in my basketball book. It happens so rarely in the NBA and in football and in baseball and in acting and in music where somebody gets the car wash package where it's like you go to the car wash and it's like, which section do you want

to get for your car? And there's that one where it's like, all right, for $39.99, we'll do everything. And there's only a couple actors really in our lifetime that have gotten it. I really feel like he was one of them. And this is the movie out of all the movies he made where you see it. Yeah. You, I mean, and you see little, little taste of it. I mean, the, the idea that he could do my own private Idaho and also be the same person who played young Indiana Jones in last crusade and have that kind of range and have that kind of movie star magnetism, but also like real, real dramatic chops. It's just such a, I mean, just even talking about it,

it's really, you think about all the stuff we missed out on. Yeah, the Indiana Jones was interesting because that was one lane that his career could have gone, right? It was like worst case scenario, he's Harrison Ford. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's like his worst case scenario. Best case scenario, he might be De Niro, Pacino,

going that route. But worst case scenario, he could have a 30-year Harrison Ford career and just be the lead of action movies. It's interesting that Chalice of that role is like, because that was sort of offered up to Shia LaBeouf a little later and I think

without getting too into the weeds on that, he obviously is someone who child actor did a bunch of blockbuster stuff, but also clearly had real chops and then kind of went off the rails a little bit. Yeah. And I think there's a difference, like you pointed out, between a successful child actor and a child actor who can make you kind of see what the future is for them too and portman is another great example like if you you left beautiful girls and you're like that person's gonna win an oscar like you just you kind of knew it it would she hit she hit every kind of note you would want from a 13 year old actress um yeah it's interesting to people

who project that way like when you think back on early sean penn performances yeah that's just like well this guy's just like un-fucking-deniable like you you did they will have to like put this dude in a hole in the ground for him not to to be something amazing it's funny i was trying to think of i didn't i was really trying to think of people like from the last 20 years that you could have said this about. And I don't know whether it's because our culture has changed

and people get too hyped up now or we're making less movies that have good parts for people who are under 18 or whatever. Yeah, you had asked me and Sean on text a little while ago about this. And I think he and I were both saying like Saoirseonan and timothy chalamet are probably like the best under 30 young actors right now um and it'll be really interesting because chalamet is going to

be in whenever movies come out again he'll be in dune which is like his big blockbuster one and so for a while he's been kind of making more arthouse stuff. But I think that it'll be really fascinating to see whether he can carry a sci-fi epic like that. But even Chalamet, I never could have bought him as Indiana Jones's son. I think there were certain doors that just weren't going to be open for him with movie roles, as good of an actor as he is. And I think Shia LaBeouf was the same way where part of the problem with Shia LaBeouf was he was trying to do that River Phoenix, Leo arc in the early part of his career. And I just don't think he was as talented as those guys. You can't really say River was a unicorn

because I think Leo ended up doing a lot of the things we thought River was going to do. But the potential of it and kind of the loss of what we didn't get, not to mention the guy died and how horrible that was. And you can even feel with his brother who carries it to this day and won't even talk about it. And I think in a lot of ways feels like he's carrying the legacy of it. But then you think about that, where you had these two incredibly talented brothers that obviously would have done at least

one amazing project together at some point in their lives. But River was such a dominant force that that shadow kind of hung over the brother for a long time. It was hard to take him seriously because he was always just River Phoenix's brother. It was like, well, he's always going to be that. Yeah. And I think that that whole extra textual stuff, like cloud hangs over standby me sometimes making the movie a little bit. I mean, for a movie that is as almost like effervescent as standby me is it's, it's incredibly dark when you start to consider all the other stuff that,

you know, like just the fact that river's character, you know, from the first scene has passed away already and has been murdered. And, you know, you're going into the movie with that. And then there is the kind of the older brother plot line with John Cusack's character with Denny. So it's just like, it's got a lot of resonance. Well, and then you think about where this movie fits in with the documentary that we made with HBO and Alex Winter. The Showbiz Kids is not about, oh man, here's all the horrible stuff that happens

when you become a famous child actor. It's way smarter than that. And it's way more subtle than that. And what's interesting about Stand By Me as it fits into the context of that movie is it fits a lot of the lanes for how this can go right and wrong, right? Like Will Wheaton basically becomes pigeonholed as the Stand By Me guy

and has talked about that openly and talks about that in a documentary where it's like people just knew him as Gordy. He couldn't break out of it. I think Henry Thomas was like that with E.T. to some degree. River, the way his career went, that's a lot of the ill effects of what can happen with young stardom and getting a lot too soon and making a couple of bad choices, getting derailed by them. Corey Feldman, everyone knows his whole story, but I think this movie really ties into nicely

his real life, which was by all accounts, like his childhood was really miserable and, and probably just as chaotic as the character in this movie ends up falling into movies, making a couple and gets thrown into the fast life of Hollywood, becomes friends with Corey Haim. They do that whole thing. And he's living like he's a 35 year old guy when he's 15. That's another way it can go. And then there's the Jerry O'Connell side, which is the side that's not as sexy to talk about, but it's like, yeah, he's the fat kid in Stand By Me. Eventually, all of a sudden, 10, 12 years later, 10 years later, he's a Jerry Maguire, he's Kush, he's the quarterback. It's like, whoa. Yeah.

Hey, he's handsome now. And he had a really really good experience he had a child actor experience that led to an adult experience and he's had a good career and and and so it's basically the four paths are all in this movie plus the key for Sutherland path

which I guess you could throw in there too celebrity kid yeah and also I think that that that comes across in the film itself you know the guys in this movie

have talked about how their characters were essentially who they were. That Wil Wheaton was bookish and shy. That Jerry O'Connell was a little bit of a class clown. That Corey was really that

intense. And that River really was that fucking cool. And that he was that dude. Alright, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to creator thanks to chris haynes thanks to alex winter don't forget about show biz kids premiering july 14th 9 p.m on hbo that's tonight catching on demand starting uh wednesday and uh we're gonna be back with one more more BS podcast later in the week and possibly one more rewatch of us as well. Stay tuned for that. Enjoy the middle of the week. Stay safe. I don't have feelings within. On the wayside, I'm a person never lost. I don't have feelings within.