The Bill Simmons Podcast - Is the NBA MVP Race Over? And Other Questions With Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 332)

Episode Date: February 28, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ringer staffer Kevin O'Connor to discuss who the NBA MVP is as things stand right now (6:00), the pace of the Pelicans (13:00), LeBron vs. Giannis (20:00), takeaways from the Sloan Conference (25:00), Brandon Ingram vs. Ben Simmons (38:00), Kawhi Leonard's trade value (46:00), and the top 2018 NBA draft prospects (1:01:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by ZipRecruiter, our 2018 presenting sponsor. I didn't have to use ZipRecruiter to find Kevin O'Connor, who's on this podcast today, but I happen to be great at hiring people. Not everyone is great. That's why 80% of employers who post a job on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site in just one day. ZipRecruiter is is great did you ever put your resume on on zip recruiter i haven't i haven't because well you don't need to now we've hired you their powerful technology

distributes your job to over 100 of the web's leading job boards and identifies the right people with the right experience and invites them to apply to your job, my listeners can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com. Did you know I hired Tate in my driveway? Really? Yeah. That's basically what happened, right, Tate? Employee number one, right? I don't need ZipRecruiter, but I'm special.

I have special hiring skills. Not everyone has special hiring skills. Meanwhile, Belvedere Vodka, the world's finest all-natural vodka, produced in one of the world's longest-running distilleries, crafted by a collective of master distillers, Belvedere is made with non-GMO Polish rye, pure water, no additives, recognized for quality. Belvedere, named the ISC World Vodka Producer of the Year in 2015, 16, 17. Wow.

Enjoy a delicious cocktail with Belvedere vodka today. Remember to always drink responsibly. Want to talk about TheRinger.com for a second? We were blowing out the Oscars this week. We had Wesley Morris come into town and Cam Collins from The Ringer and shot a bunch of Oscars videos with Sean Fantasy, Chris Ryan, and Amanda Dobbins.

They looked awesome. Unfortunately for all of them, Prince stole the show. You can see Prince right there, KFC. He's in the background. It's like he's watching them and judging their points. It's hilarious. Putting up a whole bunch of videos all week on our YouTube channel, on Twitter, all those places.

Really good discussions that we also ran as podcasts on Channel 33, where those are all running as well. We double-dipped. So check those out. Check out all the pieces we have this week. Check out on Monday on the BS podcast, we redid the 2013 Oscars. And then on Tuesday on the rewatchables, we did Get Out,

which is the earliest we've ever done in rewatchables that movie only came out a year ago um we think it should win the oscar for best picture i'm not sure it will what do you have what do you have you seem like a shape of water guy i'm gonna get out okay good get out was great everyone's gonna feel dumb get on the right side of history now and and tell people that get out should win the best picture because in 10 years, it's going to be like a Harden-Westbrook thing. I was on the right side of history with James Harden last year. Yeah, and this year Harden will win it, make up for it.

Right. But I go to my grave knowing that I made the right move there and I made the right move here with Get Out. I made the wrong move with Dwayne Wade on the Ringer NBA show. I said he was completely washed up. It was ridiculous that he takes these last-minute shots, and yet he made the game-winner last night. It looked like it was 2007 last night. He was like 10 for 16 in 25 minutes.

I don't think that happens again this year. I'm doubling down on my Dwayne Wade is washed up. Miami can go to hell. Here's Pearl Jam. All right. It is Wednesday morning here in Southern California. Kevin O'Connor from The Ringer is here. Tate Frazier is here.

I commend him for showing up after the devastating Miami UNC game yesterday. Tate showed up, his eyes. You know when you can tell somebody's been crying for like 12 hours and they just like their eyes are red and their face is puffy? That's what I saw from Tate today. I mean, Tate's Twitter post this morning, you know, talking about the alarm clock. I'll play it. It's all good, though. They saw from Tate today. I mean, Tate's Twitter post this morning, talking about the alarm clock. I'll play it. It's all good, though.

They're going to win the national championship now, Tate. There you go. Thanks, Kevin. They're our best chance to win the vacated 2018 national championship. Whoever wins is just going to be vacated. They're going to pretend it never happened. All right, we have a lot to discuss on NBA.

We covered some stuff on the Ringer NBA show on Monday. Me and Haralabob Vulgaris, who made a dramatic reappearance, as well as Jason Kitsap-Ziom was on that, Justin Verrier as well. I said on Monday it was too early to talk about the MVP. And my mindset is always like, I'm not even going to think about it until 60 games. And then I was doing some research today, and I realized it's been 60 games.

And now we're at the point where I feel like either you have two candidates and it's a duel for the last 22 or somebody has a big enough cushion that they reach a point where all they can do is lose the MVP. And I think some examples are like LeBron in 2009, which was just a SmackDown MVP season. There had a point during that where it's like, wow, the only way he loses the MVP is if he gets hurt, he goes in a massive slump. Harden might be there.

Harden, I think he's at 31 and nine, five rebounds. The percentages are as good as they've ever been. The team is great. They're 47 and 13. There's really no other monster challenger for him right now. I think the Warriors, Durant and Curry, it's hard to say who's the best guy in that team. LeBron's been up and down all year. Giannis, the Bucs are about five wins short of where I'd want them to be to seriously start thinking about him.

And really the only one who we discussed on Monday who could make a run here is Anthony Davis. 22 games left. What scenario do you see where James Harden does not win the MVP? I think it's really up to Anthony Davis here to really enter that mid-late April stage where votes happen to have enough momentum where he's averaging, let's just say, over the last 25 games in mid-April, 38 points and 13 rebounds, and the pelicans are like the four or five seats which is what he's been doing for about what 12 games

six games over their win streak especially but if he continues doing that putting that team on his back then i think the narrative is there post bogey injury um that he can have the ability to steal the votes it's hard i don't know if he can steal it from harden for me but I certainly think that there's a potential that he could steal it, though. So I laid out the case on Monday for what would need to happen.

I think they'd have to get to 49 or 50 wins. New Orleans. New Orleans. And maybe like a five seed. And we'd have to look at this and go, wow, Boogie went out, their season was over, and he just have to look at this and go wow boogie went out their season was over and he just refused to let it die and actually made them better and kicked ass and he was just the best player we have to give it to him that he's right now he's at 28 and 11 with two blocks i looked

that up i was just curious who's averaged 28 and 11 in a season? It's like 10 guys. All Hall of Famers? Yeah, there are. It's like Shaq and people like that with the two blocks. That's including the time played with Boogie this season. Never mind his time when it's just him on the court. Right. So in the West right now, which the West has turned into really a dramatically cool conference and somebody is going to get effed potentially in the playoff picture. But New Orleans is quietly a six seed.

They're 34-26. So if they go, there's 22 games left. If they went 15-7, that gets them to 50 wins. And if he bumps his stats to 30-12, and he's first or second in scoring, think it'll be second he's like sixth in rebounds and he leads the league in blocks and he puts the team on his back i think that's a legit case and we saw it last year what uh harden had an edge on westbrook and then remember westbrook got hot he made a couple game winners he just the triple doubles went crazy that people remember

when they're looking at their ballot thinking about who they're going to vote for to win MVP. I went from those last three weeks thinking I'm offended that people think Westbrook is the MVP to at least being like, all right, he's at least trying to earn it. I can consider it, but I still feel like Harden wins the MVP. This whole season, it feels like there's been almost people looking for other people to vote for aside from Harden. When Harden missed time, it was like, well, could Durant make a run? Could Curry make a run? Then the Cavaliers had their surge. LeBron's making a push.

And yes, Harden's been the favorite really the entire season. But despite him having one of, I think, one of the more magnificent scoring seasons, playmaking seasons that we've seen, I find it a little odd there hasn't been more hype surrounding him as MVP candidate this season. one of the more magnificent scoring seasons, playmaking seasons that we've seen. I find it a little odd there hasn't been more hype surrounding him as MVP candidate this season. I think people are bored by Harden because it's just so deathly boring to watch the Rockets, as brilliant as they are. I think they're fun. What is it?

We're up to 1,000 times with Harden at the top of the key with four guys standing there. It's greatness, though. Oh, wait, he went by somebody and got a layup. Oh, I've never seen that before. But they're unlike any other team, though, Houston. True. I think if every team was doing that, I'd hate it. You'd just like it because you were right before the season.

I mean, maybe that's a little bit part of it, but you doubled down. To your credit, you doubled down big time on the Houston over. That was like your best. You did the podcast with me in-house. That was your best bet. You were like, I love Houston. I think they're going to be actually ridiculous. And I think they're going to be able to stagger those guys

and be basically unstoppable. The question now is if it translates to the playoffs. That's really it now. Yeah. Well, they're 47-13. You figure they blow. Let's say everyone stays healthy. They blow two more.

And then the last three games, weird shit happens. You start resting guys. I have them at like 65 and 17 and Harden right now, his PR is over 30. Not that that totally matters, but that's usually a good indicator that you're having a monster season. Anything over 30.

Yeah. 31, nine and five. Now he created the 10 and 10 club. An indicator that you're having a monster season. Anything over 30. Yeah. 31-9-5. Now, he created the 10-10 club this year. 10.6 threes a game and 10.1 free throw attempts, which is like Daryl Morey's wet dream. It's been his dream to see that. But he's also shooting 45%.

He's making almost 40% of his threes, 86% of his free throws. It's one of the most efficient seasons we've ever seen. It's one of the best seasons in the history. Do we call him a two guard or a guard? What do we call him? What are our positions today, really? I mean, he's a playmaker. So it's a little like Jerry West 45 years ago,

where Jerry West was like, is he a point guard? Is he a guard? I don't know. Oscar was a point guard. Jerry West was like, is he a point guard, is he a guard? I don't know. Oscar was a point guard. Jerry West was like, I don't know what he is. Did you hear Daryl Morey say Harden might be the greatest isolation scorer ever? So that at Sloan? So I did hear about that.

I just want to remind people that if Jordan played in this current era and you just put him at the top with 14 minutes around him, he would have gone by everybody every time, especially with the hand checks, no big guys in the paint. So I think Harden's been a beneficiary of this era. But at the same time, I would say he's the best penetrator now of this generation, right? 2009 Dwayne Wade was pretty unbelievable.

Yeah, he was. And even then, the spacing was different in 2009, never mind in the nineties with Jordan. I think that's, what's so tough about grading. These guys is hard and the best within his circumstances, perhaps, but put Jordan in this role,

unbelievable things could happen. Well, and then you look at some of the pace stuff, which we couldn't really figure out how to compare eras, even as recently as 10 years ago. Cause I remember trying to do that with my book, the pace that the Pelicans have been playing at since boogie went out. What isn't it like one of the top three all the time or something?

It's pretty fast. They're just cranking shots. Where as Houston slowed down. Yeah. Well, Chris Paul's Chris Paul slows them down a tiny bit because of which, by the way, it's working.

Pelicans in February had a pace of 106.8, which is three higher than any other team in the league. Yeah, that's crazy. Explain what that means to the people who don't totally understand that. It's basically like possessions. In a 48-minute game or at a 100-minute game? Yes. 48-minute game. Yeah, 48-minute game.

You're getting 106 possessions. Yes. 48-minute game. Yeah, 48-minute game. You're getting 106 possessions. Yes. So think about the 98 finals where – I'm going to have to look this up. But I think the 98 finals game six, which I wrote about last week on TheRinger.com a little bit. I think the Bulls had 69 shots in that game. Is that possible? How many? Bulls had 69 shots in that game. Is that possible? How many?

Bulls, 69. That's how slow it was. Well, Pace is at the highest in the league since around 87, 88 season, I believe. That was a great season. I really enjoyed that. Yeah, I'm looking up Bulls Jazz right now. All right. Bulls win 87, 86.

They went 34 for 67 from the field and shot 19 free throws. The jazz were 32 for 64 from the field and shot 25 free throws. Different game. I mean, that is like, it's, it's like a different sport. Plus you had Carl Malone out there, Antoine Carr, And that is like, it's like a different sport.

Plus you had Carl Malone out there, Antoine Carr, Chris Morris. Oh, man. Adam Keefe. Luke Longley. Wow. Jesus. How many guys from 1998 would not even sniff the court now like i can't believe kenneth reed doesn't play that's still like flummoxes me stuff like that like for he not playing or even

like a like a quote-unquote bad player like rodney stucky who's right not good but the fact that he he's he's historically you would think a guy like him would still have like the 13th or 14th spot on a roster yeah the league's deeper than ever right now the clips i think are a good example of a team that's a little bit old school even though they do a lot of the modern stuff but like harrow is harrow is somebody who doesn't really exist anymore and has been unleashed a little bit for them um tobias harris is somebody that i guess he's a modern stretch for but i don't think of him that way and he would have been called a tweener 10 years ago. Right.

We wouldn't have, I've always liked him by the way. I wanted the Celtics to sign him. Uh, but the guys they have, it's this weird hodgepodge of dudes and like they bring in Boban last night. The last night was, was a great random game.

It was a joy. It was a joy. I don't know what to make of that Denver team. It's like a better fantasy team than a real team you know yeah like i like their players but i don't like them together some of the decisions they made i'm curious to see how that'll either prevent them from making more impactful moves down the line it might keep them kind of in this middle range you know sonny gary has harris to the money that they did um they're still having farid under contract unable to unload him or uh chandler i farid would be on my team if i was a gm i would

have gotten him already just i would absolutely play him i think he could do what harold does um denver should be a team that's in the playoffs so right now i don't want to start i wanted to talk about the west a little bit let Let's wrap up the MVP thing. Let's say Houston goes, I'm sorry, Golden State is 47 and 14. Let's say they run the slate. They've won three straight. Let's say they finish the season on a 24-game winning streak. That's the only other monkey wrench I can see for MVP right now.

So Curry or Durant would take it. One of them gets hot. Curry was hot last night. Curry led the league in scoring in January. Did you know that? He had like 30 games. Yeah, he has these stretches where he's ridiculous. He channels his MVP season for spurts.

I've been quietly monitoring Curry's stats. I'm kind of a secret stat nerd, but old school stats. Not like the advanced metric stuff, which only like five people on the earth understand. Curry. There's a lot more at Sloan than five. Oh my, yeah, we're going to talk about that in a second. Curry right now for his career is 48, 44, 90 splits.

And field goal percentage this year is 49.4. I've been rooting for him to have an outside chance at the 50-40-90 club for a career, which I think would be, for a guard to do that, would be, like, freaking staggering. But I think he shoots too many threes. Like, the last three years, he's shot 11 threes a game, 10 threes a game, and 10 threes a game.

But he shot over 40% each season, though. I know, but even if you shoot 42%, that still is going to drag down your field goal. It'll tail down eventually. Those are half your shots. Yeah, you almost have to shoot 60% with your two points. He's got a lot of cushion, though. He said 43.6% for his career from three right now.

So you think he's 48% career, and he has nine seasons banked, which means the rest of his career would have to be a basically like 52 percent to swing that okay sorry i'm yeah i don't i miss i i misheard i thought you're talking about three point percentage not no no no no we're talking about yeah okay because of the three point shot the field goal percentage won't get over 50 yeah it's not happening it's not happening i don't think we'll ever see a guard do 50-40-90. Now, let me check Durant, because I think Durant is another guy who's potentially,

I don't think he has the free throws, but God, he's having a great year quietly. So Durant's at 49-38-88. That's kind of conceivable. This year he's 52-43-89. 88. Hmm. That's kind of conceivable. Hmm. This year he's 52, 43, 89. And with golden state,

he shoots 53% from the field. Yeah. His, his last six years have all been over 50%. The season that kills him was his rookie season. When, uh, when dumb ass PJ Carlissimo is playing him at the two guard and he shot 43%. But if you just wipe that year out, he's 50% for his career.

And I think he might be close to 40% from three. If you take out that season, he's 49.6% from the field, 38.9% from three, and then 88.3% free throw percentage. Close. Real close. And then Giannis is, I guess3% free throw percentage. Close. Real close. And then Giannis is, I guess, the other person we just have to even mention. Like, even yesterday, that game was awesome yesterday. The Bucks-Wiz.

Yeah. His ability to take over games. Granted, he missed that shot at the end to put him ahead or tie the game. He's a year away, I think. The shot's still not there yet. And that's the scary part with him is you know we talk about this with ben simmons not having a shot but yannis at least has a threat is a threat to shoot but if that shot actually becomes competent like 34 you don't need him to be great he doesn't need to be a knockdown guy but if that happens i think we're gonna see a guy who's going to win a lot of MVPs the next decade. 33-27 for them.

It's not good enough as a team. His stats are basically, the totality of them is probably better than Davis. He's basically 28-10-5 every night with three stocks, steals plus blocks. But I just, I look at the talent on that team and i know they missed jabari i still don't think to be 33 and 27 in the east is not acceptable when you have one of the best five players in the league you should be better than that so i can't take him seriously for mvp or yeah no i can't either but i mean i don't know if he's there yet he's only 23 years old i think he could get there at some point as a shot continues to improve.

He's another wildcard dark horse candidate for he could go, I don't know, let's say they just get hot and they go 18-2. And he finishes with some, at some point, they're like, whoa, look at that. The story could be there. You and Bob picked him over LeBron for All-NBA, right? Yeah. I found that interesting. You disagree.

Make the case for LeBron. I just think LeBron James. Is it because of his social media stuff? The uninterrupted? You really enjoy that? Of course. Those great Uber rides with Kerry Champion. That's always the X factor.

But LeBron has carried his team. I mean, you mentioned how the Bucs are only 33 and 27. I think LeBron has carried probably a worse overall team. They're like the most expensive roster of all time, and it's his fault. I see. Yeah. I believe he's an MVP for Kyrie Irving wanting to leave. Can you use that as a knock against an all NBA team, though?

Yeah, I can. Okay. I don't know why. Most valuable means what? What does that mean to you? For MVP, okay, all right. Oh, you're talking about all NBA, okay. Yeah, you're right.

That's the tough part with MVP is, like, how do you define MVP? Is it all that other stuff? No, they want us to be confused every year about this. Because if it's, like, offensive player of the year, like in the NFL, where you're just looking at numbers or impact on winning, it's that. But I've talked to, last season, when I talked to NBA executives about MVP, they were like, nobody talks about leadership or off-court stuff, how a guy is on the bus, in the flights, how he works with the players.

But he's like, that matters just as much as anything else, what a star player does impacting his team's mindset. And you could probably use that for or against LeBron this season with how the season's gone for Cleveland. It's unclear how much he should be blamed for Kyrie wanting to leave. I'm sure we'll get the story 10 years from now. It seemed like they were getting along at the All-Star weekend. Yeah, a lot of mixed signals with that.

If I'm him and I'm entering year 14, in my career and i have kairi on my team i'm just trying to make him happy so i want him to be there i need him i need the second guy i need some i need to win the title with two of the best 12 guys in the league that's my only chance and i can't screw that up that'd be my mindset i don don't know. Could be a subject for the next Uber ride with Carrie Champion. Hey, KOC, life is too short for bad food, for mediocre delivery, for settling for what they're slinging down the street. You just moved here. You're in charge of your own meals now.

Yeah. It's been good. Well, if you're hungry for something better, let Caviar deliver. They bring you quality eats like Sofia in San Francisco. I hope I said that right. Tokyo Underground in Washington, D.C. Momofuku in New York. John and Vinny's in Los Angeles.

One of my favorite caviar orders, by the way. Delicious meals delivered from the best local restaurants. You'll find exactly what you're craving right to your door. It's food you want to feed your family, friends, coworkers, even your podcast producers like Tate. Have we gotten caviar yet? No. We'll get caviar yet? No. We'll get it for March Madness.

Okay, perfect. Get the caviar app or order online at trycaviar.com. Try Caviar today. Pay no delivery fee on your first order. Plus, take $10 off your first order of $30 or more with code BILL. That's by name. Valid until March 30th, 31st, 2018. Caviar delivers to the office, too.

Lunches, big meetings, events. Let them cater. Use the GPS tracking. Watch your order get delivered. It's quality food from your favorite restaurants. Remember, pay no delivery fee on your first caviar order, plus $10 off your first order of $30 or more with code bill at trycaviar.com. Tate, who's your MVP right now?

I hope Harden wins. I think he deserves to win. I think he's the traditional MVP cause they're the one seat in the West, but it seems like everyone wants Anthony Davis to win. Nobody wants Harden to win. Nobody wants Harden to win. It seems. You don't think so?

Twist that thing. And then that thing, no, the underneath this part. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, there you go. There we go. Sweet. He was having some microphone issues. underneath this part yeah okay cool yeah there you go there we go sweet

KFC was having some microphone issues let's let's talk Sloan you were just there you spent a few days there tragically

we taped a Ringer NBA show yesterday then had some technical difficulties and we had to scrap it

our apologies you didn't get to hear Chris Vernon complain about Marc Gasol this week. Sloan Conference, Boston. What, 2,500 people? Yeah, quite a few. 2,482 men?

Yeah. How many women did you see in three days? 11? Not a lot. I could probably count them on my hands. Under, I don't know. Under 30. Under 30 I don't know, under 30. Under 30? Not a lot.

That should be one of the panels. How do we get more women at the Sloan Conference? So what was the big takeaway? You wrote about it a little bit on, you wrote about some of the scuttlebutt stuff on Monday on TheRinger.com, but every year at Sloan, there seems to be some sort of statistical something that's going. What was the big takeaway for you this year? More dissent this year.

Dissent? I like dissent. Yeah, I think having Jalen Rose on stage, having Nick Wright from Fox Sports, some guys who use numbers and support numbers, but they all offered a contrarian opinion. And I like that during the panels. I mean, the greatest value in Sloan is the networking and the meeting people and seeing people you may not have seen in quite a while or the research papers. But the panels is what everybody goes to and what everybody, I think a lot of people are there for. And it was nice to have, I think, a diversity of opinion at Sloan this year. Jalen does not use stats. I don't know what he said in the panel.

I mean, Sloan said, I think it's a tool, but not the toolbox, which kind of echoes something. Jalen is definitely an ITOS guy. Something the guy we're not supposed to talk to said the day before. Which guy? The guy who used to be president of the United States. I'm not supposed to talk about what he said. That was so weird.

Why'd they do it that way? I mean, they told us 24 hours you're not supposed to, and it's all off the record, which I guess is standard, I've heard. We've been talking a lot, and you wrote about that in the piece a little bit on Monday about when advanced metrics go wrong. I think we have the same issue with it, which is when the sample size isn't good enough yet. Haral Bob talked about this on Monday on Ringer NBA.

When the sample size just isn't there yet, and people are running it with it anyway to me that's when advanced metrics like early in the season with orlando shooting 50 from three or even when we're you know five weeks into the season and people are like here's this five-man lineup has been lights out and it's like yeah because they played 20 games like lineup data is the one thing i didn't put put much in there in this article about uh but i've talked to a handful of nba people that some like lineup data for noticing trends but others said to me there's just so much noise that you really can't you can't really put too

much value in it because there's so many variables that can't be accounted for with the on off data and that's what you it's utilized a lot the thing is is like publicly what else is there to turn to there's not a lot how about watch the games well that yes of course let's do that i mean you're gonna watch let's watch basketball and that that's kind of what i liked about one of the discussions between mike zarin daryl mori you know zarin's like i would think you know we're all pretty good at watching basketball. And he said, that's why sometimes if you have a stat that disagrees what you're seeing with your eyeballs, something's wrong. Whether it's looking to the black box of what's happening. The Kawhi stat's the greatest example of that. For sure.

The Kawhi's defensive rating is actually the better. It's like, get the fuck out of here. And that's where you know, if you see something like that i think it calls into question the the value in and on off stat right because you see like oh so and so team is eight points per 100 possessions better defensively when a guy is on off the floor which the spurs were last season when kawaii was off does it really make sense i mean is is it worth grading a defense like that? I don't think so, because it doesn't factor in who else is on the floor for your team

around that player or when he's on or off. It doesn't factor in who's on the court on the other side. It also doesn't factor in luck, just if a shot is made or missed. And that's where, for me, defensive stats, I think maybe privately teams might do this, but I wish publicly we had a way of looking at the process of stats, like your positioning on defense, whether your read or your rotation was good or not. It's almost like you call it the Horford. Yeah, the Horford. Horford is like the best example of this.

And I don't care what the stats say, but when I watch basketball and I watch a lot of Celtic games, but he always knows where to go and what to do on defense. I mean, Pete, you can always make fun of Horford's 13, 6, and 5 stat line. Yeah, great. Keep making fun of it. He's a master of positioning on defense. Even in the fucking All-Star game, he knew where to go and what to do. And Giannis is running around like he didn't know where to go, and Embiid is doing his thing and protecting the rim, but Horford was actually directing people.

I don't know. Some guys just know how to play basketball. Tate Frazier just knows what to do and where to go. Doing my best. That's the most important part of defense, right, is positioning and timing and communication. So is it really the most valuable thing if you're looking at points allowed by a defender

when in actuality, the great offensive players can just make tough shots when you can be in a perfect positioning. I think the positioning needs to be graded more so than actually whether that shot goes through the hoop or not. Well, Curry's a good example of I don't know what his defensive stats are, but they're probably pretty good because he's on a good defensive team. And I think he's a very good knows where to go and knows what to do and knows what to be guy

but he also has the insane luxury of he doesn't have to go against the other team's best point guard overnight because Clay Thompson is usually the guy that's guarding down the stretch

Damien Lillard Chris Paul Kyrie Irving whoever and Steph's not guarding those guys and if he was guarding those guys the defensive rating of the team would be worse

and his rating would be worse. And we'd be like, oh, look at the Steph Curry. For what it's worth, he ranks in the 81st percentile on synergy for defensive stats. Yeah, because he's playing free safety. Yes, yeah. This is the Larry Bird, my favorite basketball player of all time, Larry Bird.

He had McHale and he had Parrish and he DJ'd all these guys. And he just would play free safety. Plus there were nobody shooting threes back then, so you don't have to cover enough ground but he would just be in the paint jumping passes and sneak around back door and stuff like that and made it seem like i mean he was a good defensive player in some ways but you also like curry's a good defender right you're saying he's not great dominique could have covered Dominic Wilkins. Yeah. You wouldn't want him even covering Scottie Pippen. So yeah, I think Curry, he's fine,

but he has to have Klay Thompson with him. I mean, I think that goes for a lot of players where situation and fit and opportunity, whether it's offense or defense, is everything. And earlier you mentioned and I mentioned how certain players are allowed to do certain things or certain players might have to do certain things or certain players might have certain responsibilities that others don't yeah that's what makes grading

defense so hard anyway even if we were doing it the way I proposed with looking at the process aspect of it rather than the results even then it's still tough because you can watch you know whether it's a football game you can say the free safety made a mistake but in actuality it could have been that the defensive that the defensive game plan called for him to do what he did. Same thing with the NBA, whether it's certain rotations or not. And that's what makes it so hard where you don't know what's going inside their head.

I think with offense, the data's pretty good. But defense, I'm not sure how good you can actually make it. And I don't know why we care so much. I think that at some point it's like just watch basketball man like marcus smart i don't know if the stats accurately represent what he does i have no idea but i know that when he wasn't in the lineup for three weeks the celtics suffered and when he came back he plays with a certain energy and granted their schedule is a little easier but the energy he brings and his ability to switching and just the intensity

he had really changed the team Tony Allen another guy like that back in the day for sure yeah certain guys like that I think Harold's been like that in the Clippers I don't know what his stats are but the energy that he's playing with when you have guys who are just trying to kick ass like that it I don't know. I'm not sure there's stats for that. I, I love a lot of the stats. I like looking at them,

but when it gets to like the defensive stuff, I just think, I don't know. It just, I just get, I just don't think there's ever going to be a way to properly quantify that for what it's worth. I had an analytics guy tell me that he,

he hates stocks. He hates stocks. Oh, steals plus blocks yes hates it he hates it interesting what does he hate about the reason why he brought it up because i told him hey you know i had another executive say to me that one of the stats that he really likes is steals plus blocks divided by fouls and the reason why that executive liked that is because it was kind of an indicator of keeping the ball moving having a higher pace right so you're stealing and blocking passes or shots and you're not turning the ball over on the other end so you're not um or you're rather you're not following where the game stops you're keeping the game moving and he's like yeah but steals and blocks aren't the a good indicator of defensive play like that was simply all i said it's just to me it's like it's an indicator of activity

which energy like you mentioned energy activity i feel the same thing about free throw attempts you know like it also be an indicator of frenetic energy like a negative way where you might be falling too much as well maybe but like you knowakeem and David Robinson, guys like that, when they're putting up sevens for blocks plus steals, to me that tells me something. That might be where the divided by fouls comes in, right? Because if you have a guy – well, the example that was brought up to me was Jordan Bell from Oregon.

And the person said, look at Jordan Bell, his stats from his freshman to sophomore to junior season and how he got better each year more steals more blocks and the fouls dropped off because he learned how to play with better discipline each season um learned how to not jump you know at pump fakes learned how to rotate better so he wasn't following as much and yet his steals and his blocks were continuing to rise i think perhaps it's not an uh be all end all type of stat all, but I did find it interesting looking at certain guys like that. Cause you did mention, you know, the,

the, the, you do need discipline and maybe it makes sense to have ratios with these stats rather than just like adding them together. Well, you can tell that on name executive to fuck off and, um, you might be listening.

Yeah. Another one I really like is free throw attempts. Okay. That tells me not just activity, but it doesn't lie. I was tweeting the other day about Carmelo. For his entire Denver career, he's like eight or nine free throw attempts a game, which backed up what I was watching with my eyes. He was a guy who he could shoot threes.

He could post up on the foul line with those little Dirk 18 footers, or he just put his head down and get to the basket and get fouled. Now he's a jump shooter. And he's not even really a good jump shooter. I think- Numbers are really down this year.

He's 42%. He's like, I don't know, 31% from three. And he's also not getting in the line. He's also not rebounding. He doesn't set anybody else up. He's not active at all defensively. And there hits a point where you're like, wow, you're not even remotely as good as Tobias Harris.

As impressive as OKC's been in certain times this season when they've had those flashes of what they could be right carmelo still hasn't been the team usa mellow that i expected him to possibly be that a lot of people thought he would be in the situation and that that's probably one of the biggest disappointments for you for me of the entire season i'm shocked i i really thought he was gonna have a nice mid-30s career and And I've always been a big Carmelo defender. But even I'm like, wow, this guy might be washed. Maybe all the Knicks fans were right. Maybe.

It's too fast for him, though. I still don't understand the class of 2003 guys with the technology we have and all the training stuff that we have and all the dieting and all the sleep stuff and just everything. LeBron has been able to just continually reinvent himself year after year. And Wade is like almost in this farewell tour point in his career. And Carmelo is really like a liability.

I think he looks cooked. He does. He looks cooked. And you think about OKC who is suddenly seven seed, but really tied for the 8th seed in losses. And Westbrook and George are good. Adams has been, I think, really good. And that's it.

Carmelo is an average player. For the amount of shots that he takes, for what he does, I would say he's league average. Do they make one too many moves? I mean, it's easy to say in hindsight, but... All right right so who was in the Carmelo trade it was Cantor McDermott right basically just that would you rather have those two or Anthony I think I'd still rather Mello just for the the the chance that he figures things out by April because we're still only in February it's February 28th right now there's still time for him to

develop a rhythm get hot from three and Cantor isn't a three-point shooter. So just the spacing aspect I think helps. But could Cantor have been used in a different trade? For sure. With McDermott. Yeah. I still like McDermott. Tate, how much Carmelo have you watched? A good amount, a fair amount.

What do you think on the washed-up scale, one to ten? I think he's saving it for the playoffs. Interesting. Could be. KFC, I think you might be right. The upside of Carmelo just figuring it out. Can they send HGH to OKC?

This is why HGH should be legal. I would love to have Carmelo back. Let him take some HGH. Give him some PEDs. Let's get him back. Hey, propercloth.com. Every guy knows that it's hard to find a dress shirt that fits. Is that hard for you, KOC?

Sometimes, yeah. Collar too tight, sleeves too long, shirts too loose. I have some good news. Ordering a custom fit shirt has never been easier thanks to Proper Cloth. Create a custom shirt size in seconds by answering 10 easy questions. No measuring required. Choose from over 20 collar styles, 10 cuff styles,

500 fabric styles from classic to business. Completely customize your shirt. Get the style you want, all high quality, with the absolute best quality and craftsmanship starting at just 80 bucks. Proper Cloth guarantees a perfect fit, a much better fit than Carmelo and OKC, meaning that if somehow your shirt doesn't fit perfectly,

they will remake it for free. Stop wearing shirts that don't fit. Look your best. Go to propercloth.com slash BS. Enter gift code BS to save $20 on your first shirt. Again, propercloth.com slash BS. Gift code BS. You're hosting on Fridays in the Ringer MBA show.

You're hosting Draft Class. Me and Charks. Sometimes Danny Chops. Our draft show. You deep dive. You go all in on the draft i've been impressed by your hosting chops trying to get better yeah you're moving you're moving it i mean you're no me reading the proper cloth.com type type situation yeah but it's our producer isaac

lee has been very helpful with the ad read sometimes i go in the radio host mode no it's good you're doing a good job to do that radio voice uh some topics i want to hit really quick you think there's still a case that brandon ingram might be a better draft pick than bed simmons make the case i think you look at the fact that one of those players shoots with the wrong hand and can't space the floor outside of eight feet effectively. I think that's, that's one of the issues I have with people saying LeBron goes to Philly because the stuff fit issues with Ben Simmons are something where the better that team gets, the more guys are going to have to touch the ball,

whether it's Joel Embiid or some other guy, they get the next star that they get. The ball is going to get taken out of Ben Simmons hands. And when it's not in his hands offensively, I'm not sure what he gives you on that end of the floor. Gives you probably a sad face. That for sure. Could you post him up more?

You could post him up more, sure, but then that means you're putting Joel Embiid just spacing the floor from three. He's happy with that. He likes being 25 feet away. Yeah, but he's a 33% three-point shooter, whereas with Ingram, he's a multidimensional offensive threat, potentially.

Not there yet. The shot still needs to get better, but he's shown flashes of what he can be with his ability to get in the lane finish with both hands not just one like ben simmons who only uses his right hand ability to pull up from mid-range ability to shoot don't get ben simmons a complex i took a picture with my ben simmons that's i'm a pro ben simmons i thought that was with joel unbeat oh yeah that was yes yes that was a good selfie if you follow my instagram my son i found out 10 days after he took the selfie that he had a selfie of him and joel unbeat i would have liked that information sooner but that's okay for what's worth with with simmons he is a dynamic player i think his playmaking

is extraordinary and when he wants to turn it on defensively which he will in the playoffs i don't care about inconsistent regular season defense at this time for him when he turns on he can be a great versatile defender and that's where he's always going to have an edge over ingram he's always going to have an edge in playmaking but ingram is just a guy who's also a good passer as we see as we've seen when lonzo ball's been out yeah his ability to play make at six foot nine", 6'10", is really good for his role. He's 16-5-5 since Christmas. 49-43-71 splits.

The Laker fans are losing their minds. They've dumped Kuzma. Kuzma's got kicked to the curb. He's been slumping too, but I look at Ingram and I'm like, I don't know what this guy is. I know there's something. There's way more potential than there was two months ago know what this guy is. I know there's something. There's way more potential than there was two months ago.

He's clearly something. I like how hard he plays. I like that at Duke, too. He's a year and a half younger, too. That's the thing that stuck away. He's a lot younger than Ben Simmons. He gives a shit. He shows up. And I'll be interested to see if he grows.

We've seen some of these guys, they'll add the extra inch, inch and a half. Do we want him to grow that much more? I don't know. He's pretty lanky, pretty long as is. Could he the extra inch much more he's i don't know he's pretty lanky pretty long as could he get to seven feet though i don't know i mean i think i think with ingram i don't know if it matters i'm gonna make the case for simmons okay an elite passer i don't think he's like i to me he's like a lebron level passer really really good passer um i think rebounding especially in traffic i've been really impressed by he'll go like a minute left he'll go and he'll get a rebound in a group of like five guys

and then the uh the downhill drives are really good they play five feet off him and he still goes by people with real speed and like and purpose and can also shoot or pass coming off those drives. I don't know if he's ever going to learn how to shoot. I'm not positive it matters. You make a good case, though. If LeBron's on that team, LeBron's going to want to have the ball. I wonder if they wouldn't trade Simmons.

I don't think so. Get LeBron, trade Simmons? Get LeBron and Paul George and then flip Simmons? I mean, I don't think he would do that. Oh, God. Philly's going to come and light our offices on fire. Simmons and Embiid are the draw for LeBron, I think. But with Ben Simmons, I would take Simmons

right now, to be clear. The tweet I sent out yesterday was what? A can full of Embiid people saying. You're talking about five years from now. Yeah, five, ten years from now. And I think if I'm taking a guy for five to ten years from now, I'd give Simmons a very slight edge right now over Ingram. I had Ingram over Simmons prior to the draft. Right now I'd put Simmons slightly ahead.

So if you're GM and it's a redraft, who are you taking? Right now Simmons, barely. And I would kind of construct my team to try to build around him. And I'd give Chip England $20 million to have him fix Simmons' jumper. But the point the executive kind of made is factoring in playoff perform projected playoff performance obviously we've seen neither playing the player in the playoffs yet and he mentioned lebron and he mentioned early in lebron's career when he was a competent shooter but not a super effective shooter even he had moments where he was limited when defenses really had time to game plan and That was the book on LeBron for eight years.

Force him to shoot. And so what happens to Ben Simmons, who is an inferior driver, finisher than LeBron James? I think we're going to see that in the playoffs this year. Then it's clear that Simmons at least needs to be a threat to shoot the ball, at least at Giannis' level. He doesn't need to be a great shooter, but he needs to be at least a threat to make a shot outside of 15 16 feet is there any under 28 pairing you'd rather have than

simmons and a beat um the answer could be yannis and everyone yeah yeah i know it's like anybody or davis and anybody ad plus blank you know ad plus blank you know uh ad's been the big winner the last two months for sure everyone's like oh wow he's really great i remember i two months ago i was on the ringer and base show i think you were even on it i was like no i'm not trading for ad you can't stay in the court i mean that that's the question with a couple of those guys it was the question with poor zingas and now he is hurt you know me koc i'm a durability guy i mean you got to be available tate frazier hosts two podcasts produces mine he's a durability guy. I mean, you've got to be available. Tate Frazier hosts two podcasts, produces mine. He's a durability guy.

He's not playing 58 game seasons. He's going 82. Availability is the best ability. I got you, Tate. We're going to the playoffs. I got you, Tate. Kawhi Leonard? You're in a scuttlebutt on that one?

I think this is... Thank God for Markel Fultz, because this would be a bigger story, because we can only handle so many weird nba stories i don't know i think i think me and chris vernon talked about this in january at the time like the the rift was initially reported where what i had heard was that it was basically just a disagreement on the injury like how to handle it how to come back from it the timing on all that and that's kind of what's been reported since um do you think he ever plays another game for the Spurs?

Yeah, I think he returns this season. Do you buy that? Do you buy like Jalen Rose saying that Kawhi won't be a Spur in a year, though? I do. I always trust Jalen when he has inside influence. Do you think it's a Jordan brand thing? They don't have a single big star star player in a big market. Not a single one. He also went to college in Southern California.

He also has clearly had a rift. Definitely. What's the most you would trade for him if you were the Lakers? Well, I think you get to see him play and be healthy this season. He wasn't the same Kawhi early in the nine or so games that he played. Would you trade Brandon Ingram for him? Yeah, if he shows himself. Of course you would. No doubt. Yeah, no question.

Chip England. He makes Brandon a lot better. No kidding. Duke guy. If I'm the Spurs, I'd be pretty excited to have Brandon Ingram plus whatever. Would you trade... I gotta figure out what his trade value is now. Because I don't think Philly would trade Ben Simmons for him. Let's assume... Would Philly trade Ben Simmons for Kawhi Leonard? You should. Let's pretend in now, because I don't think Philly would trade Ben Simmons for him. Well, let's assume.

Would Philly trade Ben Simmons for Kawhi Leonard? You should. Let's pretend in this scenario, Kawhi comes back and he looks like the same old dominant Kawhi. We haven't seen it in 11 months. Well, let's say we do. Let's say he comes back and he looks terrific. Or 10 months? Spurs make a little bit of a playoff run.

Kawhi looks great. Yeah. Then I think his value is the same as what you would have thought it was. I thought he looked really bad when he came back. He didn't look right. He looked off and slow and not right. It's almost like you can't value him right now. You can't put a price tag on him because you don't know.

I will say this. I'm older than you. I've watched a lot of good basketball players. One thing that is completely underrated with basketball players is how they handle when their body isn't a hundred percent. And some guys just can't handle it and they don't trust it. And it gets in their head. And I think Derrick Rose is a really good example. There's no way Derrick Rose's knee, maybe it wasn't a hundred percent in two years after that surgery, but I bet it was like 90%. He never trusted his body again. Whereas you watch somebody like Westbrook who completely trusts his body and is just a running back.

That's how Rose used to play. Rose got hurt once and it just went away. And I just, I don't know, I worry about that with Kawhi. I think some of these guys, they have something and they start thinking about it and it just kind of snowballs. I mean, I was talking to somebody at Sloan about this because we were talking about Fultz and whatever's going on with him between his ears, and I was like, well, could it be that with Kawhi?

And the response was like, nah, probably not. This is an actual quad issue, and it's like, yeah, it is. I mean, Tom Havister wrote a great story on ESPN around two years ago how the Spurs took Kawhi to P3 and solved this weird quad issue. But since that story went live, the quad issue was something that bothered him, I think, later that season in 2016. And then entering this season, of course, he's missed all these games. So the problem's back. And sure, the problem is real, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is never a mental element involved with it i'm not saying there is with kawaii but it's certainly something i think that's

worth thinking about when any player has a lingering problem or a major injury that affects them maybe they should send him back to his planet to have the aliens work on him and then they could beam him back down maybe maybe they haven't tried that yet. Where do you stand on the Wizards? Kind of where I did before, where I think John Wall needs to change, needs to evolve, and we've seen how this team plays without him, moving the ball a hell of a lot better on the court. Bradley Beal has elevated his play.

They're a fun watch. They're fun now. I love Bradley Beal. They went from frustrating to watch. Why is this team not better with all this talent? And now they're really frigging good. And they're looking out for each other. Do they play this way when John Wall comes back, though?

I don't know. But yesterday I tweeted a Patrick Ewing picture at house. The Ewing Theater committee is circling the Wizards. And John Wall's got a lot of money on that contract. He's got a lot of money. If I were the Wiz, I would be flipping it for Drew Holiday as soon as June rolls around. I'd be getting the hell out of that.

Because I think Walt would want to go to New Orleans with Davis. New Orleans is dumb enough to take a huge risk to try to keep Davis, and then you at least get out of that Walt contract. You know, the Blake Griffin trade is already kind of a semi-disaster for Detroit.

Can we call it a semi-disaster it's looking pretty pretty disappointing would you rather have blake griffin or tobias harris um and we factor in contracts yeah i'd rather have tobias harris would you rather have blake griffin or tobias harris with not factoring the contracts uh i'd rather have blake just for the upside if they had the same money. Tate? I'll take Blake. What about Blake for $35 million and Tobias Harris for $16 million? I'm still going to take Blake.

Really? I still believe in Blake. Five years left? Tate backs talent. Tate's like this new J-Law movie that doesn't look very good. Tate still has his J-Law stock. John Wall is going to make $47 million in the 22-23 season.

Oh, my God. Oof. That is scary. Trade him to L.A. So trade Wall to L.A. Kawhi, Wall, LeBron. There you go. Carmelo on a league minimum contract.

There you go. Everybody goes to L.A. We fixed the Lakers. I like Bradley Beal and I just want things to work out for him he's one of my favorite non-Celtics

who are your favorite non-Celtics James Harden I know that's like an easy name but I love watching James Harden I don't see why

people think he's boring I don't know I don't get it James Harden is amazing do you think what he does is a travel wait what I want to have this five year old conversation I tweeted about I don't know. I don't get it. J.T. Harden is amazing. Do you think what he does is a travel? Wait, what?

I want to have this five-year-old conversation. I tweeted about his game when he moved the other day. This thing now where there's this whole, and this was a whole controversy five years ago, and now people have just given up on it. But this whole gather the ball thing, he has taken more liberties with this than any than any player i've ever seen kudos to him the refs can't figure it out but like he had a play the other day where he gathered the ball took a step and then took like this two-step hop step five feet away from his defender it's like

if you're allowed to do that then nobody's going to be able to stop anybody ever um that's the play steve kerr accidentally tweeted about, right? I think, no, this was a similar version of that play from a week ago, yeah. I just, you know, LeBron gets away with stuff with the three-step, basically gather the ball and then the two giant steps.

The Euro step's always confusing. I don't think the league cares. You're talking about this one right oh yeah you're showing me one yeah yeah no that's a different one but same same thing yeah to gather the ball step and then the two steps back i mean it seems like a travel it's like when i don't think it is by the rule what do you think bob koozie and tommy heidson would think a hundred percent of travel tommy's probably yelling about it right now but i don't think it is by the rule. What do you think Bob Cousy and Tommy Heinsohn would think? Oh, a hundred percent of travel. Tommy's probably yelling about it right now,

but I don't think it's, it looks different because he's doing it behind the arc, but it's like when you're driving the lane and you take the one, two. All I know is you love James Harden, which means you love traveling. Who else do you like? Other favorite,

favorite dudes. I'm trying to think of like Bradley Beal's probably my favorite. Rashawn Holmes. Who else do you like? Other favorite dudes? I'm trying to think of a guy. Bradley Beal is probably my favorite. Rashawn Holmes. Rashawn Holmes. He needs more. He needs to be on a team.

Dario Saric. I love Dario. Enjoy him. I'd love to see him on a team. What's Dario's ideal situation? Not on a team with a guy who handles the ball all the time, like a multi-ball handler offense. Kind of like what the Clippers are doing with Gallinari right now, but Sarge.

Yeah, that type of team. Clippers with a ball. I agree with you. There's no point guard. It's just multiple guys. This would be a good piece for you. For like... Guys who need their own team. I don't know if Sarge needs his own team. It would be a bad team. I'm just saying

it would be fun if he got to have his. Here's the thing. He was like Phoenix's number two guy. If you look up, just search Dario Sarich on YouTube, and you're going to get videos of him when he played overseas playmaking the hell out of it. That guy was a point forward overseas. He'd be a good Phoenix set.

I like guys on Phoenix, too. Which guys do you like? You like Bender for some reason. It really bothers me. It's not that I like Bender. It's that I'm not giving Phoenix, too. Which guys do you like? You like Bender for some reason. It really bothers me. It's not that I like Bender. It's that I'm not giving up on him. He's 20 years old, and we knew he was going to be a project. You can keep in touch with him when he's playing in Spain.

Marquis Chris, can we give up on? Yeah. Okay. I don't know if give up, but pretty close. Can we give up on Ryan McDonough, the Suns GM? No. Why do people look at the Suns and think they have nothing good going for them? I don't get it.

I would hope they have something good for them. Devin Booker is one of the best young players in the league. They just got Alfred Payton for nothing, and he's a solid point guard. TJ Warren is starting, but he can become a really good scorer off the bench. That's a good playoff he checked out. Josh Jackson I'm not the biggest fan of of but a lot of people love his game and he's been really good the past month or so you have been really good qualify really good because that team gets killed every game versatile yeah versatile defender we knew he was a really good defender who can play make

plays off the out of the pass ability to score from multiple areas of the floor. The Suns had a special moment this week. I was watching them play somebody, and my daughter came in and saw Alfred Payton's hair and Josh Jackson's hair and said, what's going on with this team? And I didn't have an answer. And by the way, the Suns have a ton of future picks. Ton of future picks.

So they have the ability with cap space. They have the Miami pick. When's that? Is that this year? I think 2019, I think, right? 2019, I believe. And obviously they have all their own first picks as well. I would hope so.

They have Miami's pick this year, actually. So they have Miami's first this year, their own first. They have Miami's first this year? This year, yes. Oh, wow. So they have two first round picks and a pretty good draft up top. So they'll have the ability to move around. So flip that second pick for Sarge.

Hey, there we go. Bender, Chris, and the 13th pick for Sarge. Now the Philly fans are going to definitely set her off so far. Phoenix has a potential star in Devin Booker. They have a lot of draft picks.

They're going to draft another player this year. Josh Jackson, if he's your fourth best player, you're doing really well. And then you have cap space when you're entering a market where there's not going to be a lot of teams that have a ton of cap. And you're in a pretty good city in Phoenix, good state, close to L.A., close to Vegas, on the West Coast.

They had a meeting with Blake Griffin last year. Granted, he canceled. They had a meeting with LaMarcus Aldridge. Lucky for them. Yeah, lucky. Bullet dodged. I think they might have wanted him at the deadline, too. But I don't know what the price is.

That's another GM saver job. Yeah. Do you think we have the best chance to hire Stan Van Gundy in two months? TheRinger.com. Who are we competing against? What are we hiring Stan for? Well, when he gets fired by Detroit. Oh, God.

He's going to get fired. He got a lot of money. It's fine. Don't worry about Stan Van Gundy. Quickly, you wrote about the Celtics? First time in a while. The reality is they're paying $30 million

to someone who's played five minutes. Somehow they have the second best record in the East, which I don't understand. Tatum has been average to below average for two months now. Smart got hurt. Greg Monroe's been a bust. Terrible. God, I might have to turn in my basketball chops card.

I just did not see that one coming i thought i thought stevens would be he's like your classic kind of flawed guy that stevens usually figures out how to maximize and it's been the opposite they don't know what the hell how much of it that he needs to play himself back into basketball shape you think he's out of shape i mean it could be that could be like the david lee situation a couple years ago when boston got him and he just was never in shape but then he went to the Spurs and he was in shape and he performed well within his role you think he's listening right now

Greg Monroe Greg have a salad have some of those juice drinks they have some good juice bars in Boston he's so slow I'm like bummed out I really thought he was going to come in and like take over second quarters for them Kyrie's been awesome really good out. I really thought he was going to come in and take over second quarters for them.

Kyrie's been awesome. Really good. Hayward, we're still thinking April? Maybe. They've been super quiet. Yeah. I don't know really what that does. Right now, I feel less sure that he'd be back than I did before. Would they be the fifth best

team in the West? With Hayward or without right now um yeah who wins a seven game series between this celtics team and minnesota with butler back boston really oh no i mean so butler coming back of what level is he going to be at after surgery i think that has to be factored in as well. If he's 100%, that'll be a really tight series. But I would never be confident that any guy would come back over 85% that late in the season, including Hayward. I bet he moves better than Greg Monroe.

Hey, for all you guys that love discovering cool-ass new products that you can't find everywhere, I need to tell you about bespokepost.com, a subscription club that offers monthly themed boxes curated from unique and upcoming brands around the world with a wide variety of box themes, including style, grooming, cooking, drinking, travel. They cover all the bases, no commitments.

Once you're assigned your box, on the first of each month, you have five days to keep it, switch it, or skip it. Visit bespokepost.com. Answer a few short questions that will help them gauge your interests. Get a feel for the boxes that'll vibe with your style. How would you rank that? Style, grooming, cooking, drinking, travel.

We'll be number one for you with the bespokepost.com box. Can you go through those one more time? Style, grooming, cooking, drinking, travel. Travel. Tate? Same. Travel. Tate's drinking.

Who's he kidding? To receive 20% off your first subscription box. Tate was definitely drinking last night after that Miami game when he shot. What'd you do? Did you go hard liquor or you go beer? No, nothing. Hard liquor? One shot?

Just sat in the dark. Just sat in the dark? Sat in the dark. shot what'd you do did you go hard liquor you go beer no nothing hard liquor one shot just set in the dark to receive 20 off your first subscription box go to bespokepost.com and our promo code bs at checkout once again bespokepost.com b-e-s-p-o-k-e post.com theme boxes for guys that give a damn draft i don't want to talk about lottery form okay i do want to talk about who's the top five in the draft right now donkich donchich donchich you can choose one of two ways donchich or donchich donchich donchich but you need it i had a conversation with someone about this and it's like you're just gonna get the chitch right so luka donchich is the way everybody's gonna be saying so luka donchic everyone who's listening this podcast especially

the people who have been with me way back when since 07 know that i mangle names that are on the fringe i think i'm in more trouble with this one than maybe ever because it really seems like he might end up being one of the 30 best players of all time potentially and i can't say his name and we have this guy and we have Pulisic, the soccer player, who's the only good American soccer player. I can't say his name either. I'm just upset. Just why make this so hard for me?

I'm going to call him Luka. Luka's a good name. Can I call him Luka? Luka, yeah. Luka's a great name. Have we ever had a Luka? No. Like a good Luka?

No. Just the Suzanne Vegas song that you don't remember because you're not old enough um his european stats for his age and more importantly how many games they play overseas are ridiculous full nba season yeah people don't i you know in college you're playing 30 games maybe 31 like if you're playing for unc this year 30 game regular season then you lose in what, the first weekend? So that's 32 games total? Something like that.

But my man Luca, he's going to play like 80. Yeah, he's played 42 already. He's putting up what, 18, 7-7 or something? 16 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, and 25 minutes per game, which is a lot of minutes. So it's per 36 is like 28 and 8 basically per 40 according to draft express blue is 25 points nine rebounds seven assists which is just ridiculous for an 18 year old kid playing in the second best basketball league in

the world i was listening to draft class with you and jonathanarks and you started talking about him and you qualified it you admitted you were about to say something completely ridiculous and then you did and I almost drove into a post. What did I say? You threw the Larry Bird name out there. Charks threw it out.

I blacked out. I didn't know who said it. I woke up. I was wrapped around a telephone pole. Yeah, you threw the Larry Bird out. Anytime that happens I didn't know who said it. I just, I woke up, I was wrapped around a telephone pole. Yeah. You threw the Larry Bird out. Anytime that happens, I have to go on YouTube and watch like three hours of the guy. I got to say,

he was really good. He was a little Larry Bird-ish. He's really good. I mean, he's an amazing passer. He beats everyone off the dribble. He plays like he's one of those guys that his feet aren't really on the ground ever when he's dribbling playing.

It just seems like he's always ready to do something. I love them. He's always alive those guys that his feet aren't really on the ground ever when he's dribbling, playing. He just seems like he's always ready to do something. I love them. He's always alive. I think with Luka, with his passing ability, it's great. If you plug in Luka Doncic on YouTube and just passing, there's like five 10-minute highlight videos of him just passing the ball, whether it's for an assist or just great passes that were misses or hockey assists.

The dude is frigging awesome. There's two kinds of players. There's guys who look for their shot first or guys that settle for their shot after they couldn't find the perfect pass. And those guys are rare. There's only been a few of them ever. And it seems like he might be one of those guys.

He's driving to the basket and he's already thinking about how he's going to set somebody up. I don't know if you saw the bird McHale thing on NBA TV, but bird was talking about McHale was asking him how he was such a good passer. And he was saying how it's just, it seems so simple,

but I've never heard anyone say this. He was like, I bird said, I knew if I beat my guy and I got into the paint at that point, I'd have any pass I want. Because the big guy's instinct is to come over and try to block your shot. And they're always going to start moving. So as I was beating my guy, I was always trying to see where the big guy was.

Because I knew once he started moving, I'd have this guy, this guy, or this guy. I was like, wow, that seems easy. I wish I was good at basketball and I could have done that. Probably easier said than done. I think our man Luka's like that. He has that. I'm beating my guy. Oh, that guy's open.

And I think with Luka, a lot of times people knock his athleticism. But I thought athleticism is more than jumping and dunking. Luka has a great NBA body. He's strong for his age with the ability to get stronger as he gets NBA training, like going to P3, get athletic training. It's the Jamal Murray theory. For sure. Explain what happened with Jamal Murray to the listeners.

Well, Jamal Murray was a guy, I think for me prior to the draft, I worried about his first step and his ability to create off the dribble. We should mention you spend months and months working on an NBA draft guide that you're doing again for the ringer this year. So you were really worried about his first step and you were worried about his athleticism. Yeah, and I liked Mario. I had him ranked like seven or eight.

Those were your two concerns. Yes, and those concerns look silly now. But explain why they look silly. Because you're getting NBA athletic training. You're full-time basketball training with the best training in the world. And Luka Doncic, granted, this is his job right now. He's not a college kid.

This is his job. It's on another level in the NBA when you're getting that level of athletic training. And right now, he's not getting that. Jamal Murray now has a first step. I think Jonathan Givoni said on a podcast somewhere else or tweeted this. Doncic spent like two weeks at P3 last summer. Yeah. And his athleticism this year already looks better than it has in the past.

So give him that again and again and again with all the training that they have in the NBA, all the resources. I don't worry at all about his first step because his instincts and his feel are so good. And his first step, by the way, is pretty good. It's not like he's slow. I think his feet tell me he's going be fine he knows how to move i think i think he's not gonna be a guy who dunks in the lane but you mentioned with larry bird he knows how to turn the corner in that in the pick and roll and keep a guy in his back and survey the floor and always

tend to make the right play whether it's throwing up a floater whether it's going to the lane and finishing with either hand whether it's pulling up a floater, whether it's going to the lane and finishing with either hand, whether it's pulling up and shooting, kicking out a pass, or whatever else, I think Dontrich, at his age, his instincts are just on another level. And I'm a big instincts guy. So when you factor in that he's also a good athlete, not a poor one like a lot of people knock him as,

I think he could potentially be a stud. The question is, does his three point shot get better than this now? Right now he's like a 33% three point shooter, whether it's off the judge with 18 years for sure. And he has already improved and shown flashes. He's going to be tremendous. So one guy right now, gunpoint gun to your head, Tate's holding a gun to your head.

Cause he's furious that the, that UNC got knocked out. Um, Aiton or Lucauka with the first pick? Luka Dondrich, number one. I have him in his own tier right now. You have him in his own tier? Tate, you hear that?

Tate likes Aiton. Yeah. You like franchise centers. I'm taking Aiton. Old school. Bring back the big man. Aiton has the best chance, I think, of entering that level for me, though. Who does Aiton remind you of?

Young Ewing. I don't know. That jump shot is perfect. I think Ewing's a good comp. Yeah, Ewing's a good comp, but he's a better shooter. Ewing without the giant ice packs on his knees because John Thompson ran him into the ground for four years. He's fun to watch.

Aiton just looks like he was built for basketball. He's a machine. I will say Aiton passes my test because I always look at centers. I haven't seen him in person yet. But there's two types of centers. The guys who look like they are centers just because they were super tall and they figured it out. Or the guys who are like, that guy's an awesome athlete.

He just happens to be that height. And he seems like that. He grew up to seven feet tall. He was already fine. He already had handles. He could probably dribble and shoot the basketball. Aiton can pass, too. KG was already fine. He already had handles. He could probably dribble and shoot the basketball. Aiton can pass too. KG was always like, he's seven feet,

but that's not really what makes him great. It was his feet and his athleticism. What about Aiton's motor? He's playing college basketball right now. He'll be fine. I'm not worried about that. Only for $100,000. But now we think that story might be bogus, right?

Yes. The timeline does that up. You covered that on One Channel Podcast yesterday? We did. We talked about it. Timeline's bogus. Yeah, ESPN reported 2017 originally. Then they said it was 2016. They're sticking with the timeline being 2016,

but they only had wiretaps in 2017. I thought ESPN only fucked up stories about the Patriots. Oh! Oh! Come on, KFC. Give me it. So. Got it.

Never mind. I'm going to just avoid talking about the Patriots. Luka won. Aiton, two. Yeah. Who's three? So, and then. Then it drops.

Honestly, for me, I mean, it's not a cop out, but I have, I have Aiton in his own tier. Aiton kind of in his own tier right now. Then tier three I have Bamba, Jaron Jackson, Marvin Bagley, Michael Porter. So I have those guys kind of lumped together. Michael Porter? And I would take them probably in that order right now. Bamba, Jackson, Bagley, Porter. Probably in that order.

Bad times for my man Trae Young. I talked to some guys, NBA front office guys over the weekend, and it surprised me how low some NBA people are. Someone said to me, Trey Young is the type of guy you are panicking that your owner is going to be like, we're taking him. Number one. He's the guy. The next Steph Curry.

It's like the buddy healed syndrome. Yes. And you know that if the owner has you take him, you're probably losing your job in a couple years we know who's taking him it's the calves seventh pick lebron's gonna get right young there's no doubt about it it's gonna be napier all over clutch already has trey young so trey young is the leader of the calves have you soured on trey young i will give both of you $200 if Trae Young doesn't sign with Clutch. I'm going to give you $200 in cash. That's a bonus.

$200 in cash. Okay, cash. I'm going to drop the bags off. I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying I'll give you each $200. That's our bet. You don't have to give me anything if it doesn't go. Trae Young, for two weeks, was the best guard I've ever seen in my life in college basketball.

And I don't know whether all the attention wore him down or the way the defense has shifted on him or he just got in his own head or whatever, but he doesn't look like the same guy and I'm concerned. He needs a sports psychologist, I think. Just to talk to him, settle him down. He got way too much buzz. We took the blame for it. We said it. We put him on front street for everyone.

We've got to stop ruining our franchise guards. America. Was it the defense or is it just the fact that he's taken these insanely hard shots? I think he was. That West Virginia game was insane when they were throwing everything at him. Yeah. And then Javon Carter is also the best defensive guard in the country. He was never the same after that game.

Yeah, shook him. Where would you take him? Where would you feel good? High first, or rather high lottery, mid lottery? If he's not top 10, that's ridiculous. He's going seventh to the Cavs. Michael Porter feels to me like the most Sacramento pick possible. I feel like he's been a little bit overrated uh because just because we haven't seen my comment

i mean we we haven't we haven't seen him so people don't think he has weaknesses but it's like here he's a guy who still needs to improve his ball handling a lot and prove that he can score against a set defense the potential is obviously there but but... They're going to team him with Harry Giles. One shiny podcast. Sorry, Harry. Guy with major knee problems, and then a guy who just had back surgery. They can hang out together.

I like Porter to the Mavs. I can see the Mavs loving Michael Porter. What do you think about Porter Tate? Do you like him? I don't know anything about him. I haven't seen him. I've watched him play in all the high school games, but I've been confused by those before, too.

Yeah, it can be hard. And he's definitely sitting out out like he can play right now and he just doesn't want to ruin his value what if what if what if he can't hurt his value anymore like aside from getting hurt again but like right now i think a lot of nba people probably have them like seventh or eighth and if you're michael porter you're thinking i'm the number one guy in this draft and you so maybe you do need to play to help your value or maybe you went to college and saw all those other guys and were like wait a second that's possible like i'll take the eighth pick you know that that thing that leaked with all the payments uh-huh the what was that andy miller the agent yeah with everybody's getting i would be so mad if i got less than some of the other guys on the sheet that I was better at I kept thinking about that

If you got like 32 grand And then you saw some dude that you were just dusting in AAU Got like 56 grand If you're Isaiah Whitehead and you saw Dennis Smith Jr. Who didn't even make the tournament or anything Is getting paid 73,000 You gotta be a little frustrated by that You're like, what? I got 30,000?

I love this whole world where you get loans from agents, but you don't necessarily have to sign with them. They have to chase you down. Unbelievable. What is happening? We got to fix college basketball. Last thing. Oh, yeah.

Last thing on my list, and then we're going to go. The West. We have 10 teams for eight playoff spots. Okay. Hold on. Here are the 10 teams for eight playoff spots. Okay. Hold on. Here are the 10 teams. Well, Golden State and Houston, obviously. Minnesota's at 38 wins, and Utah's at 31 wins.

So there's a seven-win difference between the three-seed and the 10-seed. But if you go by losses, Minnesota's at 26 losses. Utah's at 30 losses. Four-l loss difference. The Spurs are 36 and 25. And they only have a two and a half game lead over Denver. Unreal. Right now it's Minnesota, San Antonio, Portland five, New Orleans six,

Oklahoma City seven, Clippers eight. Clippers have the same number of losses as OKC. Denver, nine. Utah, 10. Who's out? Feels like Utah, that's just too much ground for them to cover in that conference, even though they've been playing well. On the ringer last Friday or the Friday before, we kind of did this.

What are the teams that miss out? And I had New Orleans and the Clippers. And this might be a little bit. i think the clippers make it the only question is which one of doc rivers's media cronies are going to write the doc rivers should be the coach of the year piece because that's coming in the next two weeks when that happens tweet that at me so i don't miss it make that case somebody will make it he's got a lot of cronies. You know who's the coach of the year? Doc Rivers. That's who. Look out for that one. That's coming.

Or Jeff Van Gundy will say it on the ABC broadcast. That's another one. I'll tell you who the coach of the year is. Hold on. I'm not going to complain about officials for three minutes. This is really hard. There's kind of a roadmap for OKC not to make it 35 and 27 i mean i i tend to select the teams that that have the best players on it so i have a hard time picking against okc with george

one of the league's best two-way players and obviously ross he's been on fire for two months he's unbelievable so much of this is gonna have to do with luck, I think. If you face a team on the wrong night and they beat you. Did you see OKC's schedule? It's tough. It's really tough. This is something me and Chris Vernon talked about on the Lost podcast. Oh, the Lost podcast? Did you really lose a podcast?

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. It was KFC's fault. He didn't care enough about it. I'm sorry, Kevin. Next three, at At Phoenix At Portland That feels like two and one

Right? Home for Houston Phoenix San Antonio Sacramento Three and one? Possible At Atlanta

Four and one Home for the Clippers But then At Toronto At Boston Home for Miami Home for Portland At San Antonio Home for Denver At New Orleans home for the Clippers, but then at Toronto, at Boston, home for Miami, home for Portland, at San Antonio, home for Denver, at New Orleans, home for Golden State,

at Houston, at Miami, and then home for Memphis, who will probably be playing Chris Vernon in that game in their last attempt to get the number one pick. How many points does Vernon score? Over or under two and a half? He probably gets a flagrant foul in like a minute. But there's a roadmap there for like nine more losses,

which would get them to about 47 and 35, which is, in my opinion, might not make it. It's tough. It might be a 48 win. Remember the year the We Believe Warriors, the year after they didn't make it, they had 48 wins? So I don't know. So you're picking him.

It's going to be tough for Minnesota, too. Let's look at their upcoming schedule as well. With Minnesota, you have a run coming up. At Portland, at Utah, versus Boston, versus Golden State, at Washington, at San Antonio, versus Houston, versus Clippers. Oof. That is tough. That's a gauntlet.

With them, you're going to need Towns to just continue elevating his game. He's going to have to channel Anthony Davis. I mean, I have a hard time picking against Minnesota with the cushion that they have, but what kind of cushion is it really? Three and a half games over Denver. Are we sure the Spurs are going to make the playoffs? I'm not sure. I mean, look, this is, like I said, so much of this is going to have to do with luck.

Facing a bad team that has a hot night. I watch the Spurs and have no idea how their 11 game's over 500. I don't think I'd put Denver in. It's very Belichick Patriots-ish, where you're just looking around going, wait, is that Kyle Van Noyce, our best defensive player? What's going on here? All right, so we would say. Got to keep the Spurs in.

Got to keep Minnesota in with the cushion. They have towns. I think you keep Portland in with the firepower. Tate, who does Adam Silver call the referees to say, let's make sure these guys get in? OKC, definitely. OKC, definitely. Westbrook gets every call the last two months.

I think the Nuggets are falling out. I think Nuggets out, too. They think they're rid of the Nuggets in Utah? Clippers Jazz. Either you get Quinn Snyder in there to be like, this could be the Lakers' future head coach, or you get the Clippers in there to go against the Warriors. I'm so mad that I have to pay for Clippers' playoff tickets,

and it's going to be like two home games, but it's going to be a check for 16, and then we get refunded after four months. The greatest scam in professional sports. Is that how they do it? Yeah. Really? Send all your money now and renew for next year because you won't get playoff tickets otherwise. It's like, yeah, you guys are going to get swept. So that's how they do it? Yeah. Really? Send all your money now and renew for next year because you won't

get playoff tickets otherwise. It's like, you're going to get swept. I didn't know that. Yeah, that's how they do it, KFC. Is that league-wide, every team? Oh, yeah. Huh. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, they have many scams. But when you have a really bad team, you can't do it.

Most fun first round playoff matchup and then we'll go for the West who are the teams you're knocking out I'm just assuming Denver and Utah

are the ones that don't make it but Millsap's coming back for Denver which is a wild card I liked his hair by the way good job Paul Millsap Clippers Houston I think would be really fun that they're actually playing tonight.

A fun sweep. Golden State, Oklahoma City is the 2-7 right now. I'd love to see that. Minnesota, New Orleans is our 3-6. And San Antonio, Portland is our 4-5. It's pretty damn good. San Antonio is the only team I'm just not excited about. Sorry, Shea Serrano.

The no Kawhi Spurs are not Not the most riveting You can't get excited about them without Kawhi But if he comes back and he's 80% 90% Here's another thing with the Spurs They're fun they can make some noise I miss Popovich being a dick You don't like nice guy?

I don't like nice guy Greg Popovich I don't like him like praising LeBron With like guy Greg Popovich I don't like him praising LeBron With the secret kind of stealth Trying to get him on the Spurs next year Compliment I don't like how he's friendlier to the Southern reporters I don't like I just want him to be an asshole again

I think they miss his asshole in this Maybe LeBron would add the Spurs to his list If Pop turns him into an asshole again Because right now I don't think they are on the list. I did file that away. Spurs. No, Popovich basically tampering. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Basically tampered. Yeah. LeBron's the superhero these kids need. He's the real-life Black Panther. For my article, I wrote about LeBron. He's an amazing guy. He's soliloquy about how great LeBron is. Nobody wanted to

say anything on the record about lebron for the thing i wrote a couple weeks or last week or whatever it was yeah and like then you got pop out there saying all these beautiful things about him which are true you know i mean he's trying to probably probably trying to make him feel good trying to trying to give themselves a chance this summer thanks to zip recruiter the smartest way to hire my listeners can try for free at zip free at ZipRecruiter.com. Thanks to Proper Cloth, the leader in men's custom shirts. Need new clothes for all of your holiday festivities? At ProperCloth.com, ordering custom shirts has never been easier. Create your custom shirt size by answering 10 easy questions.

Shirts start at $80 and are delivered in just two weeks. For premium quality, perfect fitting shirts, visit ProperCloth.com. Use gift code BS to get $20 off your first custom shirt today you can hear Kevin O'Connor

on the draft class show on Fridays the ringer NBA that's a good show it's been fun I really like it my family doesn't like it as much

getting better each week my daughter said get that off on Saturday as we drove to soccer get that off those guys are talking about basketball

I don't know I really like it I don't know. I really like it. I don't care what she thinks. Thanks, Phil. She doesn't like basketball. We're getting there each week. Tate Frazier, One Shining Podcast. The Eagles landing today. The original bag man himself, Mark Titus. He's

dropping bags on the Pepperdine campus this weekend. The bag man from Ohio is here tonight. Is he dropping bags at Pepperdine? You guys driving to Malibu? There's no telling what he's doing. He has no car this time, so he has no freedom. So that's going to be great to watch. A no-car Titus just wandering around our lot. Wandering around the streets of Hollywood.

Should be interesting. And we're amping it up. One shining pod. Yes. Whole bunch of stuff coming. It starts as soon as he lands. Big Ten tournament this week. Big Ten tournament this week.

Starts today. Get ready for the rock fights. Get ready. New York. 53 to 51 with two minutes left. The home of the Big Ten. New this week. Starts today. Get ready for the rock fights. Get ready. New York, 53 to 51 with two minutes left in New York city. Big 10 tournament. Thanks. Kelsey.

Thanks. We will see you on Friday. We. I don't have a few years with him on the wayside on the first I never said I don't have a few years