The Bill Simmons Podcast - Jimmy Butler's Trade Saga With Kevin O'Connor, Plus Johnny Bananas on 'The Challenge' | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 420)

Episode Date: September 27, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor to discuss the Jimmy Butler buzz, including questions and concerns (3:20). Then he sits down with six-time MTV 'Challenge' champion Johnny Bananas to talk his NBC show, '1st Look'; the evolution of 'The Challenge'; some of the series' legends; and more (34:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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that we are taping today, and then that is going to run, I think, on Tuesday. Let's just say we were dazed and a little bit confused for this one. That's happening. Then coming up, we're going to talk a little bit about the Jimmy Butler trade saga with Kevin O'Connor

and then my old friend John Bananas from Real World Challenge fame. He's here as well. First, Pearl Jam. All right, Kevin O'Connor, a.k.a. Kevin Obama, a.k.a. Kevin O'Blow-It-Up. You're Chris Vernon also. Yeah, I'm turning to Chris Vernon. You can hear him on the Ringer NBA show.

You can read him on the ringer.com. You can see him on NBA Preview Palooza. That's coming up on October 15th. I was ready to do the emergency trade podcast for Jimmy Butler. I've been on call the last 48 hours. I've been on call mentally. I told nephew Kyle, don't booze as much as you usually do from four o'clock on. Try to stay cool.

I was sweating last night at the concert I went to. I was thinking, I might have to bounce, right? I went to my daughter's volleyball game yesterday. I'm like, do I drive all the way over there and then he gets traded? I have to drive all the way back. Unfortunately, he's not getting traded and it's just kind of in limbo.

And this was a fun one because we didn't expect to have trade talk in mid-September. Usually, people are set with their teams. I think the last time this happened was James Harden, which happened basically right before the season in 2012. So I think we're hearing the same things about why this hasn't happened. And there's some fascinating dynamics in here. And as usual, the people that get screwed are the fans. Because you have Tom Thibodeau, who I like, who I just don't think has done a great job so far, but realizing he sees the end of the road. This is probably his last season as coach slash GM. He doesn't want to trade Jimmy Butler because Jimmy Butler helps him do better and

possibly save his job. And we see this over and over again. It's the save my job style of thinking. So he doesn't want to trade Jimmy Butler unless it's an incredible deal. But you have 29 other teams that are looking at it, KOC, and saying, well, why am I going to give up 100 cents on the dollar for a guy who's a free agent a year yeah we see this all the time what so it makes me think Tibbs doesn't want to trade him I am actually a subscriber to that theory what are you hearing yeah so you know the impression I get is around maybe 15 to 20 teams have actually made an offer and some of those offers aren't anything worthwhile other ones are maybe that's acceptable maybe there's something to work with here. And, um, you know, there's been a lot of talk, especially this morning about how people wonder how serious Minnesota actually is about making a deal. And, you know, one of the things that I've heard from a handful of sources

is that like with the Sixers, for example, with the initial offer that they made, uh, the counteroffer was like, we need Ben Simmons and a deal. And it's... Is that true? I mean, it's things like that, counteroffers like that, that make you wonder, is this actually for real? So they're the shithead in your fantasy league who doesn't have a QB and you offer them Jared Goff and they're like, yeah, we'll take Beckham back. And you're like, okay, dude, I'll see you later.

Yeah, it does seem like that, but there's certainly a frustration across the league trying to figure out what the actual price is for Jimmy Miller. It seems to be too significant. And the thing is, though, is the offers that do seem out there, like on Sunday there was a lot of noise about Miami. On Monday there was a lot about Brooklyn. You and I, we were texting about that for a week.

I thought he was going to end up in Miami. Me too. I thought it would have been done by now. Seems like that's not happening. No, because I think the difficulty there is finding the third team and the appropriate price for someone to take on the Gorgie Jang contract. The key with Miami is they are never really going to have the cap space to sign a marquee guy. Yeah.

So I always thought they were going to figure this out. Use Whiteside in the deal. Take Dang's contract back. I don't think Minnesota wants Whiteside. I can't really blame them. I would take them, though, figure this out. Use Whiteside in the deal. Take Dang's contract back. I don't think Minnesota wants Whiteside. I can't really blame them. Yeah, but I would take them, though, at this point. If I'm getting rid of Dang, it's two years, not three. That's the thing.

But then I get Bam Adebayo, and I get Justice Winslow in the trade. Yeah. And at least I have something. But you also get Hassan Whiteside. But only for two years. I don't have him for three. Like, dang. Yeah, but that's the thing.

I'm losing in this trade no matter what happens. I'm trading Jimmy Butler. You know, Thibodeau has clearly declined some acceptable offers or offers that you can actually work with and negotiate with, but you also can't blame him for saying no to some of the things that are out there. Like, I heard the Nets won't even put Karis LeVert on the table. Well, I mean, he's Karis LeVert.

Yeah, I mean, but that's what I'm saying. You can't put him on the table. Sean Marks, he's revolutionized the Nets. He saved them. Karis LeVert's Yeah, I mean, but that's what I'm saying. You can't put him on the table. Sean Marks, he's revolutionized the Nets. He saved them. Karis LeVert's pretty good. He's fine. Is he ever going to make an All-NBA team?

Probably not. Is he ever going to make an All-Star team? Probably not. I'm putting him on the table for Jimmy Butler. There's a non-zero percent chance that he,

you should probably put him on the table for Jimmy Butler. Plus he has an injury history. He does. Yeah, the foot injury in college. Karis LeVert. Well, I mean, but that's the thing though.

I want Sean Mark's PR team. I'm going to hire them for the ringer to just push everything we're doing in a crazy way. You love the Nets. The Nets? What do they have?

Does this have anything to do with... Oh God, did Sean Mark save the Nets? Like how? What do they have to sell all NBA players? They already stole

all their draft picks. But that's fine, but that doesn't excuse the Alan Crabb trade. Why are they paying $18 million a year for Alan Crabb? They're going to pay somebody. You're going to meet the minimum. Get the hell out of here.

The Nets. Stop. They have good talent. Who? Karis LeVert's pretty good. Great. Does Karis LeVert crack the 10-minute rotation in the Celtics? Yeah, he probably does the back end of it. can I tell you my semi-auge lay

semi-auge lay it's semi-auge lay or carousel vert if semi-auge lay was on the nets we'd be talking about him as the next Draymond Green on the Brooklyn PR people

out there here's my dream trade that I think makes a lot of sense Gallinari from the Clippers along with Beverly's expiring contract

along with Robinson the kid they took from BC in the draft along with Thornwell who I think is a

Tibbs type of guy you could have seen him on the 11 Bulls the Clips take back Butler and they take back Georgie Dang Georgie?

Georgie? Georgie Dang I've never been Georgie? Gorgie Jang. I've never been able to say it. I have an NBA speech impediment. I'm not going to apologize. I know who all these guys are. Some names are hard to say. That's a name where it starts with a D, but there's a J in there.

Gorgie Jang. I watch every Red Sox game, and I still say Porcello, Porcello. I still vacillate back and forth. So I have a pronunciation speech impediment. But if the Clippers do that, first of all, that's a fair amount to give up for a guy who could leave in a year and not sign with them. But more importantly, it keeps their cap space because they dump Gallinari, who I think makes 21. And then they're taking back Dang, who's 15, and they're taking them back for an extra year, but it still gives them enough to potentially get Kawhi too.

And if I were them, I would do that because you're basically turning Alan Arion to Butler. For sure. I think with the Clippers, they're one of the teams that can offer that blend of youth with veterans. And if you're Minnesota, whether you're Tom Thibodeau or you're Layden or Taylor, I feel like that's the type of package you should be seeking. That mixture. The thing is, it's like, I've also heard Clippers aren't willing

to put either of their first-round picks out there. I haven't heard that as well. Or Gilgis. You can understand not giving Gilgis to Alexander. I understand Shea. But Jerome Robinson, unless they are really that high on him, and you never know how much the team values the player compared to everybody else out there.

Maybe a little posturing. Could be. But if it is posturing, that's where if you're Minnesota, you get to play with that. You can't demand the best player in a turn sometimes. You need to be a little bit more realistic. I like that trade from Minnesota because in Gallinari is a classic. We've joked about this.

If he can stay healthy, he never stays healthy. But when he is healthy and when he's in shape, he's a good basketball player. He also fits in with the team they have a little bit better than some of the other names I've heard. And they would dump Dan's contract. And basically, they're out of all these things when the Towns-Wiggins really, the combination of those two extensions, really starts to kick in the season after this one. They need the flexibility. I have no idea how they would afford

Butler Towns and Wiggins anyway. It'd be expensive. I mean, it'd be tough to build around that core. But I think that's the best fake trade that... I was on the trade machine for hours and hours and hours just trying to figure out how this could go. The wildcard trade that will never happen, but we have to mention it.

I have no info on this. I am just pure trade machine speculation. That's it. I just want to make this clear. 100% will not happen. So don't turn this into a blog post, weirdos in the internet. But if Minnesota called the Celtics and said, Hey, word for mother.

Oh, I think Boston would say no. Okay. It said Hayward for Butler. Oh. I think Boston would say no. They would say no because trading Gordon Hayward would give them even worse karma than trading Isaiah Thomas did. I should have expected the Celtics but I wasn't expecting the Celtics.

But they would have a meeting about it. Celtics front office would. Absolutely. You'd have to. Now, Minnesota would say, we'll do Butler and Dang

for Hayward. They would say, no, they'd hang up. But if they were like, let's just figure out Butler and expirings for Hayward, let's just do it

straight up. In a vacuum, but not in, I mean, Hayward's locked up long-term and Butler's a free agent. Hayward's got three years left coming off a major injury.

If you're the Celtics and you think you can win the title, Hayward is the X factor on this team. I think this is the best nine-man rotation they've had since 1986. I'd say that without hyperbole. I think every player they bring in. It's a stack team. It's a stack team that they're now bringing in dudes who have started in conference

finals games and produced. It's like Hayward. I did the article on The Ringer about Hayward on Wednesday. He said it. Me today is like Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum have more experience than me. Yeah. Right? Because they've went the distance to the conference finals. Coming off the bench, Morris, Baines, Terry Roger, Marcus Smart. Those guys

are reliable bench guys. Nobody has four guys off the bench like that. Not to mention all the shooting they have, Terry Rozier, Marcus Smart. Those guys are reliable bench guys. Nobody has four guys off the bench like that. Not to mention all the shooting they have, all the lineups they have. The X factor is Hayward and whether he can stay healthy. And I've been surprised. I thought his ankle was going to be 100% from like May. And they're just saying now like he can finally dunk off his left leg. I'm like, fuck, it's mid-September.

He's just starting to dunk off his left leg. I'm like, fuck, it's mid-September. He's just starting to dunk off his left leg? I think when it comes to health, though, this almost kind of relates to the difficulties in valuing Jimmy Butler, though. He's only played over 70 games twice in his career. Has a lot of lower body injuries over his career, a lot of miles on his legs, about to turn 30 years old, wants a five-year max contract,

where you're mentioning Hayward post-injury. Butler has never had a major injury, but he's also had a lot of minor ones or nagging ones that have took him off the court. So I think if you're valuing him, it's tough to figure out what exactly he is, because when he's healthy, he's a top 10 player, but he's not always healthy, which puts him, to me, in my eyes, around ranked 15th or so in the best in the league. So I've heard this case. I saw it on Twitter and even Skeets, shout out to Skeets. What's up Skeets?

Shout out. Compared him a little bit to Blake Griffin, which I was surprised by. Yeah, like about, if you're giving him 190 million, there's a little Blake Griffin potential there and he's had some injuries. So I was like, that doesn't seem right.

So I looked it up. He's missed 61 games over the last four years. He's 29. He obviously turns 30 a year from now. But I feel like he's kind of a young 29. He started late. He transferred schools. He's only played 458 games regular season.

He's played 43 playoff games. So by comparison, I looked up Andrea Goodall, for example, a swing man who played a lot of minutes and had a lot of miles on him. He played 695 games by the time he was 29. Durant played 771 by the time he was 29. I don't feel like Butler has a ton of miles on him yet. I think it's like the 37 minutes per game, that type of thing. When he played, it was a lot.

I see it. He was third team all-NBA in 16 and 18. So, two of the last three years, he was one of the best 15 players in the league by any calculation.

Last year, at one point, he looked like a top five MVP candidate. I think if he didn't get hurt last year, and if he had played 82, I think he would have been

second team all-NBA. That's the thing. If he plays 82, though. Right. He has only played 70 games twice in his career I get it but I don't feel

he's always playing 60-ish games I don't feel like this is I don't think of him as an injury prone guy I guess is my point me neither

because he's so tough you know and he plays so hard and he plays through things but like Westbrook has knee surgery every August and we don't talk

about it anymore he has the same knee treatment every August and we don't talk about it anymore. He has the same knee treatment every year and it's like nobody ever worries about him. It's still like, even if a guy hasn't missed a lot of extended time, it's still scary moving into their 30s though, I think. Last four years, he's basically been 22, 6 and 5,

23 PER, 46% shooter, 35% from three, 85% from the line, which I like about him. I would describe him as an A minus defender. I don't think I would give him an A. I would give him an A minus. I think he's good. He can defend all types of guys. My big thing that concerns me about him is the locker room chemistry stuff. And I've had him on the podcast twice. I enjoyed his company. I thought he seemed like a good guy.

He's definitely got a swagger to him. But he's now been in three situations that something has gone wrong with his teammates. Two different times with the Bulls. And then this last year with Minnesota. And the thing that concerns me with the Minnesota, I see the Chicago one that was like you have a really I think a bad

coach a bunch of weird personalities on the team especially that Wade Rondo year Meritage Bobby Portis like that was like a nightmare last year doesn't make sense to me I went I talked about this on this podcast I went to a Minnesota Clippers game last year and you could tell their chemistry

was way off I think we were both at that we went to a Minnesota Clippers game last year and you could tell their chemistry was way off. I think we were both at that. We went to that together. That's right. And we were like, God, Butler hates towns. It was obvious.

We're in the fifth row. We could see it. And what concerns me is I don't think towns is like a bad guy. He's not. He's a little flighty. It's a good guy. Yeah. He's a nice guy.

I think his heart's in the right place. Wiggins is frustrating. It isn't trial the time, but I don't feel like he's a little flighty. He's a good guy. Yeah. He's a nice guy. I think his heart's in the right place. Wiggins is frustrating. He doesn't try all the time, but I don't feel like he's a bad guy either. And Butler somehow clashed with these guys, and I don't really know what happened. What did you hear from that? I mean, Butler's not a bad guy either. None of them are bad guys.

But how did this go so bad? Sometimes good people can have disagreements. Sometimes good people can not click. Sometimes good people can have disagreements. Sometimes good people can not click. Sometimes good people can be a little bit more aggressive. It's like you and Danny Chow. We try to keep you guys apart. I mean, Danny and I are tight. No, it just seemed last year, like last December,

when Verno and I had a pod talking about this, it seemed to me like there's a lot of stuff between Towns and Butler. But also, I think a lot of there's stuff between Towns and Butler. But also I think a lot of the younger players on the team just not playing not getting opportunity or some of the veterans

that expected more playing time not getting that playing time. So it was like up and down the roster I think was problematic in December and I think

it got a little better then it got worse and then the Butler Towns thing never resolved itself. They won 48 games. They had a really good season. Yeah and they really could have been better considering they never resolved itself. They won 48 games. They had a really good season. Yeah, and they really could have been better

considering they had some injuries. They were right in the three seed up until that Butler injury. So normally when players don't get along, my theory based on years and years and decades of experience following the NBA is women are cards. Those are the two reasons two teammates can fall apart.

98% of the time it's women or cards. I think this is the 2% of the time. I think Butler came in acting like he was hot shit. I'm like, I'm here to win. I'm Jimmy Butler. I'm one of the best 10 players in the league. And looks at Towns as like this cornerstone that he's going to have this thing with. And Towns isn't kind of where he thought he was going to be.

I think Towns is a little bit of a passive personality. He is. And Butler is just doing this whole, here's how we should do it here. And I'm Jimmy Butler. And those guys. Your chest is puffed out right now as you're saying that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, I'm Jimmy Butler.

This is, we should do this. And I think Towns and Wiggins are looking at this guy like, who the fuck are you? You've never made it out of the second round. What are you like? What are, bringing your four rings here? And I think that's what, from what I've heard, that's where it went bad. You had somebody that hadn't really won anything,

acting like he had, and talking down to these guys, and acting like he was superior to them, and it just didn't go well. None of it really went well, as we're finding out this past month. None of it has. You know, it finally got put out this week, and I believe it. I don't even think it's a conspiracy theory. Towns' contract extension was not an accident.

And all these other guys, I was texting you about this this summer. I was like, why is Jokic, why did they take care of him? Why did they take care of Devin Booker? Why isn't Towns taken care of yet? We were all kind of like, this is Jokic, why did they take care of him? Why did they take care of Devin Booker? Why isn't Towns taken care of yet? We were all kind of like, this is weird. Why not grab the long-term extension? It's clear now that he wanted to see how this Jimmy Butler thing went. And as soon as they were like, we're trading him, not a coincidence,

they announced the Towns extension. You didn't think that was a coincidence, did you? It didn't seem like a coincidence. That's for sure. Especially with the lead upup up to that, that Towns wouldn't want to sign it without Butler there. Or he wouldn't sign it unless Butler was gone. And granted, Butler's still there at this point.

And it seems like we're not close to a resolution that can flip in a heartbeat. If the right offer comes along or something changes within Minnesota's front office. But when it felt like this was going to be done, like over the weekend when we chatted, it doesn't seem any closer right now, does it? Let's take a quick break, talk about Starbucks double shot. Starts with bold Starbucks coffee blended with milk for a smooth, creamy, delicious flavor enhanced with ginseng, guarana, and B vitamins available in six delicious flavors. Mocha, vanilla, hazelnut, white chocolate, coffee, Mexican mocha. An energy coffee drink that not only tastes great,

it gives you the energy to go from point A to point done. I've been drinking these late afternoon in lieu of actually going to Starbucks and ordering my late afternoon latte. Life's a lot easier. It's just in my fridge. I go grab one. I get a little jolt.

Wake up a little bit. That's what you have to do. I'm not like Joe House who gets the Trenta Red Eye with three shots of espresso in it. He's a psychopath. This is for normal people. Starbucks double shot energy to do things you actually do. Find it in your local convenience store. Speaking of Joe House, check out Shack House. He has a bunch of – he did that – put that up yesterday, right, Kyle?

House of Carbs? No, the Shack House. He did do bunch of, he did that, put that up yesterday, right Kyle? House of Carbs? No, the Shack House. He did do Shack House yesterday as well, yeah. Yeah, he put up House of Carbs and Shack House yesterday, but Shack House has all of his Ryder Cup picks.

You know what you can do? Bet on the Ryder Cup. Oh yeah, and House has been really hot all season, so if you want a little extra, if you can't decide who to root for between your country and Europe, if you're on the fence, if you can't decide who to root for between your country and Europe, if you're on the fence and you need gambling to push over the top, check out Shack

House. He has all kinds of recommendations in there as well. I haven't decided if he's allowed back on Friday rolling yet, but we'll see. All right, back to the pod. Coming back really quick. The person who is involved in this story, to nobody's surprise, you're young. You don't have the same experience with this human being as some of the older NBA fans do. we've had as an owner for the last 20 plus years, presided over the Joe Smith tampering fiasco that ended up costing them multiple first round picks, kept Kevin McHale in charge for an inordinately long amount of time, hired, employed, and gave power of basketball attorney, basically, to David Kahn,

who passed Stephen Curry not once but twice and took two other point guards right in front of him. Held on to KG way too long. Should have traded him two years before he actually did. There was no roadmap for that team to do well with him. The Kevin Love saga, that was handled terribly and then worked out fortuitously because Cleveland got LeBron and was able to flip Wiggins there. But for the most part, has been one of the three or four worst owners in the league now for 20 plus years.

Gives the moon and the stars to Tom Thibodeau. By the way, we'll never see anyone get that again I don't think. I don't think we'll ever see the coach-GM combo. It's just worked out too badly. It would't think we'll ever see the coach-GM combo. It's just worked out too badly. It would have to be like the next Popovich-Belichick type of coach to get that responsibility.

Goes all in on this guy right as the NBA is changing. And I thought it was a great hire, but now you watch Tibsey's last couple years, and it's just the league is too different. That whole, you know, the 2013 Pacers could not happen in 2018, and that's kind of where he succeeds. So he's had a lot of time adjusting to that. He keeps bringing in his guys.

They give up a lot in that Jimmy Butler trade. I thought that was a good trade for them. But it just, none of it's worked out. And my point is, it always goes back to the owner. Bad ownership leads to bad situations. That is the one thing we learned. The players change, the coaches change, styles change. Everything changes in basketball.

The one thing that never changes is you're screwed if you have a bad owner. And I think he's a bad owner. I've heard he's a great guy, great. He's a bad owner. Yeah, you talk to executives, younger executives who have aspirations, if they want to rise up. They're even veterans as well. But the one thing that people always say is that when it comes to taking that job, you need to have the right owner in

place. If it's not the right owner, like there's going to be a, the clock's going to be ticking on you the second you take that. And that's true for even with good owners, but with bad ones, especially it's tough to do things that you want to do. It can be a high-pressure environment, depending on the type of owner. It all starts from the top with sports organizations. Always. I mean, another team that's been a mess and changed tactics a million times and is another good team of getting the press ready or getting the press behind them is Phoenix.

Sarver's been, I don't know, a really erratic, crazy owner. And I just think if you have a bad owner, you know it. You know, like the Knick fans know they have a bad owner. So this little pipe dream now of KD and Kyrie coming there next year. The players read all this stuff. They know. You know. Essentially with KD,

maybe it doesn't matter. Like someone at that level. I think it does. Ultimately, he's going to, this is the team that's going to employ him for four to five years.

And you can try to talk yourself into the city and the history and all that stuff. But ultimately, you have to deal with James Dolan. And right now, he's in this situation where he's dealing with the Lake Ups and Rick Welts and John Burbank

and all these really smart dudes. And now you're with James Dolan. And that's your conduit to the outside world. I don't know. I don't see it. Go from light years ahead to a guy who prefers playing in his band than running the scene. So I guess my point is, I know you have to go, but you have to tell Juliet to wait.

I don't care if you have a 10 o'clock meeting. This is important. I guess my point is, I am not surprised that this is the team embroiled in one of the weirdest situations we've seen where you have a GM and a coach who clearly don't want to trade somebody. The player who wants to get traded has already packed his bags. He's packed his bags alright.

And then the owner who's like, yeah, we're trading him. This is unprecedented. I've never seen such a public breach between an owner and a front office because it's the owner's team. He owns it. He gets to do whatever the fuck he wants. And with Taylor, there's the stuff, you know,

at the owner's meetings over the weekend that he, you know, he's the guy to talk to. And an executive said to me after that came out, he's like, well, if that's true, who's Taylor leaning on? Like, who are the people he's talking about, talking to about like what acceptable deals are, what to look for, which, you you know like who were his advisors essentially it turns out that it's Thibodeau and Layden like you know just

handing back the responsibility to them and that hasn't led to anything though and that puts Taylor in a tough position because you know the front office has a lot of years left on their deal Thibodeau had a very expensive contract it's not like you can just fire them today. You have them under control for a long time. And I think you need to work with them, but that's tough because they're not either finding a deal or they're unwilling to find one right now. How does this play out? What's your prediction?

Does the trade happen in the next four days? I would lean towards yes. It just feels like something needs to happen. I'd be surprised if Butler's a wolf. What's your prediction? What team? The two teams that there's been the most noise about, Miami and Brooklyn.

I think one of them. There's just been the most about them. So that actually makes me think those aren't going to be the team. So someone out of nowhere. It's usually when there's noise, that usually means the team that wants the noise to exist is floating out the noise so

so you Clippers maybe? I still think the Clippers make the most sense they make the most sense on paper that's for sure we know we know he has a place here we know he loves LA

yeah exactly why do you think the Lakers didn't get involved yet? I think it's worth keeping cap space there's guys I'd rather have in free agency than Jimmy Butler.

I'd rather just bank on that. I can't decide if Jimmy Butler is overrated or underrated. I actually think he might be underrated. I think he's overrated.

You think he's overrated? Just because of the injury history? Yes. I think that's a factor. Availability, the off-court stuff. I mean, Butler's, like you just mentioned,

but a good guy, but some of the concerns with how it's gone in the past situations i think all of that needs to be factored in more than just on-court performance when the guy's healthy availability matters a lot i care less he's awesome he's like fifth i have him like 15th best player i care well and there's 30 teams so that's important i care less about the injury history and much more about the locker room stuff. That would be my biggest hesitation. Like if the Celtics traded for him right now, I would be like, fuck, we have great chemistry. I don't, is this guy going to be happy?

I think enough has happened, fair or unfair to him, that you just have to question like, why is he repeatedly in an unhappy situation? I don't understand it. Is it just bad luck three times in a row? Or does he have some blame to it? Or is it somebody that he's got to be in the perfect situation? I was thinking that Houston would have been the most fascinating chemistry experiment. Putting him with Harden and Chris Paul and Carmelo.

You love that situation, don't you? Well, if any of those four guys are unhappy, that could go sideways pretty fast. Are you selling Rocket stock? I'm buying. If you're selling, I'm buying it. You're buying my Rocket stock? I mean, look, I don't think the Rockets are going to be as good as last year, but I'm buying. I still think they're going to be a really, really good team. Any stock

you're buying a lot of right now? I don't want to step on Preview Palooza. In terms of like, I feel like the Spurs and Lakers, like when you're looking at over-unders, I think both of them, I'd be hammering the over on both of them. I feel that way about the Salts, too. They were, what, 58 and a half, I think?

How is it not 60? It should be 62 or something like that. The East sucks. Yeah, the East sucks, and that team is loaded. I think Atlanta under is interesting, too, because last year, Coach Bud was just in FU mode trying to win games. And this year everyone's on the same page

and that team wants to stick. They openly want to be bad. Bucks are interesting too. I don't know what to make of them. What are they, 44, 45? Something like that. Because Budenhoser has always run a lot of pick and roll, whereas Milwaukee never has.

And I wonder now seeing Giannis Antetokounmpo in a situation where he'll be running more pick and roll could be pretty fascinating. He could elevate his play and boot and hold his system. I think they're the X factor. I think Philly's going to be worse. I just don't think their benches is good and they need a lot of

health from Simmons and Embiid. I think they need 150 games from those guys to hit 50 wins or beyond. Indiana, they moved the deck chairs a little bit. They're fine. I don't think they're different or much better or much worse than last year. Washington, who the hell knows? You go all the way through.

But Milwaukee is the one like, ah, I don't know. You could tell me that Giannis is going to be the MVP this year and they're going to win 55 games. I wouldn't be shocked by that. If he just had one of those LeBron in 2009 type of jumps. Boone and Holzer could unleash him. Could unleash him. And it felt

like one of those things where last year it never felt like they were using him correctly and that he was in the mix the right way. We have a lot of time to talk about this stuff. KOC, did you figure out a name for your Tuesday party yet? We're working on it, Bill. It's not going to be Blow It Up? I don't really love the Blow It Up name for the pod.

I just love Vernon saying, screaming, blow it up at the start of every pod. Just both of us just shouting at each other. What's the leader in the Cub S right now? There is no leader at the moment. Double Dribble? It's on the list. I don't love it. You need a spark.

You need a freaking picky. I i know we should be picky it's like picky when you're naming naming anything well can you fucking come up with a name we need to do the art for it jesus yeah it's true you're not like some band coming up with the title for a new album we're not naming our children here nah Nah, just come up with a name. Your name's Kevin O'Connor, his name's Chris Vernon. This isn't hard. I mean, we did say Chris and Kev, or, you know.

So you're out on KOC now? I mean, I like KOC, I just don't love it in the title. What do you think, Kyle? I think you're allowed to have like separate personas. Like KOC's talking, shit is getting real.

I like Kevin O'Connor's talking. I like Kev. Kev? You sound like... You lost me on Kev. You should be wearing a backwards hat right now. You're on the fucking Disney channel. You're like Jesse's new friend. Oh, Kev's here. He's wearing his hat backwards.

That's a good rocker power. Alright, well I look forward to reading you as the preseason goes along. And when Jimmy Butler gets traded, I'm sure we'll have you out again. Thank you. Thank you, Bill. Hey, we've been doing football picks every week on Fridays on the BS Podcast.

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to claim up to $1,000 in free play. That is my bookie. Don't forget to use the promo code Bill Simmons when creating your account to claim the bonus. You play you when you get paid. All right, John Bananas is here. In the flesh and blood. It's been a while.

It's been too long. And this is not my doing. For everyone who wants to know. What do you mean you're doing? I get tweets all the time. When are you going to go back on the ringer? And I'm like, guys, I text Bill on a daily basis ad nauseum. And he never texts me back.

There was a couple of times. No, that's not true. I text you back. The timing hasn't worked out a couple of times, but now it's working out. Now you have a new NBC show? Yeah. When's that start? Don't try and get off topic, man.

Come on. When does it start? If you were a girl, I would have deleted your number a long time ago. I'm not a girl, though. That's why you didn't. You're my best friend. Yeah. When does it start if you were a girl i would have deleted your number a long time ago i'm not a girl though that's why you didn't you're my best friend uh yes uh when does it start start saturday night after after snl okay great yeah great time what's the title it's called first look um people want to first look is essentially a combination of a travel show and an experiential show so essentially what every segment, if it's not the travel segments, which are cool, I've been to the South of France, where we did a whole profile on

everything France. Gerard Bertrand, who's this huge, he's essentially the Pablo Escobar of wines in France. Did a whole profile on him, his jazz festival. Went to Alaska, which is actually going to be the season premiere this Saturday. Spent seven days in Alaska, went to Seward, Alaska, Homer, Alaska, Cooper Landing. And then you vote the natives off. What happens? Exactly. Exactly. I go there.

Three people have to leave the town? By the time, once I get there, they realize why they don't like the lower 48 as they refer to it. And I'm essentially why. And then when we're not doing the travel episodes, we're doing the experiential segments, which are each episode is a theme and it's putting me in situations, circumstances that most people have never seen or never heard of.

Yesterday, I was in a thing called Wasteland Weekend, which is Mad Max meets Burning Man. I've sumo wrestled a 600 pound sumo wrestler. I danced. I made the LA Rams cheerleading squad. I was a stripper pole dancer last week. And, uh, I mean, the list goes on and on, man. It's any, any wacky, you know, idea you can come up with the producers probably already have. And they're putting me in that circumstance. I did, you know, I, I worked out with Travis Kelsey, the Pouncey brothers, Mark

Ingram, you know, in, in this training facility in Florida. Got my ass handed to me, obviously. I sent you the clip. I don't know if you watched it. I don't know if I watched it. Probably not. It's all right. I get it.

You're a busy guy, man. I have supported the banana. I was like the first one to support the franchise. I know. I was with you. What real world season was that? Key West. Key West.

17. How many years ago was that? 12. God, it feels like a hundred. It does. To you. How real world season was that? Key West. Key West. 17. How many years ago was that? 12. God, it feels like 100. It does. To you. How many challenges have you done since? Talk to my therapist.

I mean, yeah, she knows. 17 seasons. 17 challenges, 12 years on reality television. No signs of stopping. So people always ask me, what are your favorite TV shows? What are you watching lately? And I'll be like, oh, I like Succession and The Challenge. And they don't know what to do. I'm like, I fucking love The Challenge.

I'm not going to apologize. A lot of people like The Challenge, though. It rates really well. What's funny is Jimmy Fallon got the exact same reaction. Before I did his show, he had, who did he have on? Millie Bobby Brown. And then the next day he had Jerry Seinfeld on. And the challenge came up as topics of conversation with both of them. Seinfeld literally asked him. He asked him on the show. He goes, I don't have a show. Do you have a show?

And he goes, yeah, I love the challenge on MTV. And Seinfeld literally looked at him like, the what? What's going on? Same with Millie Bobby Brown. It was funny. After Stranger Things 2 came out. She was like, he literally hadn't, he's,

he has a guest on that he's talking to has not seen her show yet, but goes, but I love the challenge. I'm obsessed with it. I watch every episode. So it's pretty cool, man. And,

and, and I think, you know, guys like you, you know, watching the challenge and giving it props, it just gives it, you know,

so much more credibility than sometimes I believe it deserves. Well, I was worried that the challenge would survive because the feeder system was the real world. That was the minors to the challenge being the majors. And the real world, for a variety of reasons, has kind of hit the end, I feel like. Is it over? They're actually rebooting it soon.

They're doing a real world reboot. I know. It's tough. It's going to be tough. They got to get away from the the gimmicks if they get away from the gimmicks and just go back to what made the real world awesome which was seven you know 20 somethings attractive different walks of life but not from opposite ends of the universe uh hanging out hooking up drinking like that's what made the show great it was it shouldn't be seven people who all probably have a sexually transmitted disease yeah getting together and this is going to be the highlight of their lives just being on the show so the in the old days some of the people actually had stuff going on yeah this was like a stop

to wherever they were going next and somehow that that shifted. I think they blew it. I think a lot of it, you can't, I can't put it all on, on, on just the real world. I think a lot of it has to do with just the culture these days. And I think it has to do with the oversaturation of reality television.

When I started, it was us and survivor were the only games in town. Yeah. Two reality shows. So it was like, and now it's the point where there's a reality show about everything i mean there's probably a reality show about your your guy sitting over here at the computer you know what i mean kyle yeah we got his twitter feed from 1500 to like

11 000 in 24 hours i believe it we got a tattoo it was great i love it um you don't want to watch his reality show i'd love to it's it's just i mean i'm having a great time just watching him type over here it's just dark bars and women I'm having a great time just watching him type over here. It's just dark bars and women that he shouldn't be talking to. Good man. And cigarettes. Truly doing God's work, my friend. Thanks.

I'm glad somebody sees it, though. The other thing that's the problem with that is, even when you were on the real world, social media didn't exist yet. And the internet was like- In its infancy. First decade. Yeah. Now social media is such a huge part of

being a young person i don't know how you capture that in the quote-unquote real world where nobody's allowed to go on their phones see here's the problem with that is and this is what i i say this and i've said this many times and i'll say it again the problem with the challenge and what's happened is the challenge has gone from the old school gritty guys which back when the derricks the cts the brads you know the CTs, the Bradds, the Darrells. Derrick's one of my all-timers. Love Derrick.

Shout out to D. Darrell. Wes, Mark Long, you know, Kenny, Evan, like these guys, it was like, they were cut from a different cloth. And we went and we competed and we were there for the love of the game. Yeah.

This is before the social media world existed. Now I feel like cast members are going simply for followers or simply to create an image or a brand or a name before like the Johnny Bananas brand that just kind of came about like organically over the seasons. And I was like, Hey, I've been on five seasons. Maybe I should see, sell a bobblehead and see what people think. And it worked. Whereas people are coming on now and after one season, it's like, they want to be the star of the show. And it's like this whole instant gratification, know entitlement of i feel like this new generation of of you know kids and reality television people but you're to blame for that

new generation uh listen the blood is on your hands sort of but they haven't exactly followed in my footsteps if you see the way i came into the show it was like i came into a house of monsters and i was like i don't want to take them. I want to assimilate into them. Now it's, I want a storyline that we went through bananas. That's the new, that's the trend now on the challenge. You're going to get on the show if you do that. But it's, but it's lame, dude. It's like, be you don't be me. Like create your own story. I didn't, I didn't create the Johnny Bananas brand by going after other cast members. It happened. We went against each other. It wasn't like, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to ride this guy's coattails and make a storyline simply based off the fact that me and him are going at it. You know? It reminds me of world series of

poker when it took off and the best guys were in the world series of poker. And then these people would just be at the tables being like, I'm going all in. I want to be the one that brings down Daniel Negreanu. And then sometimes they actually would. That's happening to you. I'm team bananas. You're my favorite team in the challenge. Thank you, man. It means a lot. The other one that's grown on me and not just because of the mask, she's that same, but because I feel like she's been in my life now for 10 years. I feel like I know her as Cara Maria. Yeah. Because she's such a tortured soul and she's so self-loathing and it's like people are yelling at her and she's like

you can't hurt me, nobody hates me more than myself and you're just like man I really wish she could find some happiness it was like how that almost like short circuits people it's like I hate you, it's like well I hate myself it's like now what do I do that's bouncing off me

the thing about Cara and this is why I think Cara has grown to be not just a fan favorite but like i mean i'm gonna say it right here i love the girl all right and it took a long time i think for me and her to really just had a rocky relationship we had a very rocky relationship for a long time and i think the reason why is because she was never they call it your truth on the challenge she never, she never was true to her truth, which was she's a weirdo. She's, she's a shy, kind of like awkward, like weird girl. And she would always try and do things like, oh, I like horseback riding. I'm a CrossFitter. I'm into S&M. And it's like, Cara, you don't need to constantly keep reinventing yourself on this image. Just be you. And I feel like as soon as she finally was comfortable being herself and owning her weirdness really owning it and it's almost like now that she is

comfortable who she is she's so much more of a likable lovable person and so like i've seen that side of her and that's grown on me but in addition to that it's like now car essentially is the female johnny bananas where when she comes comes onto a challenge based on her- Her competitive track record. Exactly. And based on, you know, what she's accomplished, everyone hates her just solely based on that. So it's almost like on this season of Final Reckoning, they pushed, I mean, they pushed us together and it was almost like we're in an alliance essentially, you know, based on nothing other than the fact that everyone in the house hates us. So it's like, we, you know, you kind of find common ground with, with people who are in the same situation as, and that again, it helped me get to know her a lot better. And.

I like the competitors. The thing I like about the challenge, I mean, I like all the parting stuff and all the drama and people yelling at each other, but ultimately like there's just some people who kick ass and are really tough, you know? And you watch some of these challenges with you're 250 feet up on these fucking cranes. 600. 600, whatever it is. 1,000. We were 1,000 feet off a cliff in Hermanus, Africa.

Yeah, so. And the challenge is, like, somebody like Cara, she's up 1, thousand feet and she's just non-pussed you know like there's no challenge they could throw at me that I haven't seen you're the same way

and it's funny watching that in comparison to some of the newbies yeah who were like and there's like no challenge that would scare any of the veterans at this point

they scare the shit out of me don't listen doesn't seem like it well listen man don't let appearances fool you I am absolutely shitting myself when i do these things but i mean it's almost like mind over matter i don't care who you are i mean i guess unless you're some sicko like daredevil flying suit wing weirdo it's like being that high up

off the ground suspended by literally a piece of paracord that's thinner than this cable. Yeah. You're like, if I fall, like, okay, yeah, I know this is like a professional stunt crew. Like, what if they didn't tie a knot or like, what if something goes wrong? See, that's what I would think about the whole time. I do. We're on these cranes and it's like, what if some dude got drunk last night and forgot to screw in like the part of the crane? We're in Columbia.

All right. We are in Cartagena, Columbia. You know, we're in Thailandumbia all right we are in cartagena columbia you know we're in thailand we're in the middle of nowhere the guys i see over here it's like this guy doesn't know how to tie a shoe let alone probably tie a bowling knot or whatever the hell you do on a on rigging and i'm like these are the guys whose lives that were you know our our lives are held in their hands it's crazy um give me the great competitor rankings right now. Rankings? The ones you respect the most.

What's like the top four? Females? Both. Okay. Females in no particular order. No, it has to be. I'm giving you an order. Give me the top four.

It's hard to say because here's the thing about the Shines. Are you talking about competitive wise or just overall game? How about this? Because from an athletic standpoint, there are certain girls that stand out. And then like Cara Maria in eliminations is a freak of nature. She doesn't lose. But politically, terrible.

The girl's political game is like- All right, so co-ed draft. Okay. You win the challenge. It's 5 million bucks at stake. Okay. Bananas draws first pick. You can pick any female to go to the challenge with.

Oh, Emily. Emily Schramm, for sure. One of the great athletes of all time. For sure. I don't know how she wasn't a 10 gold medalist, 10-time gold medalist in the Olympics. Who, she? What do you mean? No, she should have been. She should have been.

The girl can do anything. And you know what makes her so good? Is she doesn't even, when she competes, she doesn't compete against the girls. She competes against the guys. Yeah. She doesn't care about how much better she does in the girls. She's like, Oh bananas.

Like when I, in champ stars, when I literally ran circles around your boy, Terrell Owens, um, I didn't, I didn't support that. Uh,

the word stars was used a little too loosely. It was a little, a little, a little liberal. I wanted to think that they're actually stars. I get it here's the semi-finalist in the darts championship here's this dude that won

a one-legged ass-kicking contest yeah I agree we don't have to talk about championships but no, I would do that was the last time me and her competed next to each other and I'd do a challenge and she'd do a challenge and it'd be like, Oh bananas,

you've got 10 more flags than me. I want it to beat you. And it's like, Emily, like you're, you're a phenomenal athlete. Like, but you know, you're competing against another phenomenal dudes,

but, but hanging though, hang. Oh dude, she can hang. So Emily won. Who's two. I'd probably have to go right now in this day and age.

I have to go car Maria. You have to have to. Yeah. I mean, and one of the feistiest competitors we have. She's so feisty and she does not back down. And like I said, what's now made her so much more of a dangerous competitor is her willingness to accept the negativity that comes her way.

Before it used to hurt her feelings. She used to cry. She's like, but I'm not this. There's one way to hurt her though. Hook up with the guy she likes. Or talk about her horse. Oh, that's the other way feelings. She used to cry. She used to be like, but I'm not this. There's one way to hurt her, though. Hook up with the guy she likes. Or talk about her horse. Oh, that's the other way? That's the other way.

Hook up with the guy she likes. She can handle it. She freaks out. She liked that English dude with the hair plugs. He's the worst. She's the guy hooked up with like three girls in the house. And she's like, I still love this guy. It's like, move on.

Well, I mean, look at her. She dated Abram before. I mean, the girl doesn't have the most spectacular track record. She's going to find happiness, though. I can feel it. So I count her titles. When people talk about what a great 21st century Boston has had with three Red Sox titles, five Super Bowls, NBA title, Stanley Cup,

multiple challenges from CT and Cara Marie I feel like that should be on the list I agree and Cara beat she was the first female

individual winner where she beat she was overall won the entire challenge against guys too the final

right impressive that's the thing about her her political game is god awful like she literally could not you know she couldn't sell a cup of water to a guy that's been you know she couldn't give a cup of water away to a guy that's been you know dying of thirst in the desert for a month but when it comes to the eliminations which she finds herself in often which is a result

of her lack of politics she wins you know and then when she makes it to the final, she wins. And she just finds a way, dude, to just grind it out, man, and just make it there. And she's as gritty as they get. Is there another one up there or just those two? Laurel. Yeah, Laurel. Laurel brings some baggage, though. She does, but that's what makes the challenge amazing, dude.

It's the baggage. You got to manage the baggage, though. You do. Cara Maria is easy. Laurel actually like flip out and start screaming at somebody and cause a whole riot at house. Laurel's her own worst enemy. I think like a lot of

really good athletes are really good competitors. It's like that psycho factor, that switch that they flip is what makes them great. You know what I mean? So, same exercise

but with dudes. You can pick any male partner, $5 million on the line for a challenge. You have first pick. Who's your pick? CT. Yeah.

100%. What am I getting? Am I getting the new dad who ate a ton of macaroni and cheese from off his little, his kid's little thing, CT? Or am I getting like, I actually care about my body.

You want to know what's crazy about CT? It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. He's such a freak of nature. The guy competes as well at 250 pounds out of shape as he did at 220 pounds he's like shaquille o'neal it's like when shaquille didn't show up in shape for laker seasons we've done challenges all right and i'm a nimble dude i'm light on my feet we've done challenges where i had trouble there one, I'll never forget it. We had to sit on this little tiny bench,

kind of just push forward. I mean, the bench was probably six inches wide. CT's ass is about six feet wide. And somehow he managed to sit his ass on this thing, suspended over the water and did as well as I did. We did this thing, we had to jump on these bells, suspended 35 feet over the water. You literally had three inches to jump like six feet and get your toes in this little three inch little

tiny on tiny lip and he managed to do it his his political game is unbelievable i mean he's obviously one of the most you know convincing he's calmed down over the years he's calmed down a lot but i mean he's still it's like he's still's still just as dangerous as he's always been, which is the most- Nobody fucks with him. No. That's how you know. It's like that.

Nobody- Girls. Girls don't. There's no like new person who just comes in and be like, I'm going to take a run at CT. No, never. It's not like me. It's like, oh, let's go after bananas.

Everyone comes in. That's like, you know, let's go after him. It's like CT. It's like, nah, we'll leave that guy alone. I don't blame him. CT, I'd have to say, you know, overall, just based on, you know, the guy's body of work. He drew the short straw in the last challenge. He did.

I didn't like the partners thing. It's just rough, man. It is. As soon as he got Veronica, I was like, oh, man. I want CT in the show for like more than four episodes. I know. Who's number two? Number two, I would have to go with probably either I'd say close to would be

either Darrell or Derek they both bring different things to the table obviously but they both play a very similar game and they like to stay out of the drama and fly under the radar but when push comes to shove I mean they're both those guys you were in the room right? I was standing right there I helped pull them off we all were

three inches away from it when this went down and it was Brad was kind of asking for it. Big time. Yeah. He'll even say to this day, like he threw the sorriest tie kick at Darrell you've ever seen

in a pair of- In a pair of dad socks, which was the best part. And dude, yeah, it was something that I think he's to this day regrets. Well, especially because it was videotaped by cameramen.

It's something you'll never get away from. Yeah, you don't want to be the drunk out of your mind going after Durrell. No. It's never a good plan. No, Golden Gloves boxer, dude. Yeah, no thanks. Let's talk about Belvedere.

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with Belvedere Vodka today. Remember to always drink responsibly. Is there more sex or less sex than we see on TV in the show? Or right around the same? So here's what will happen. With the Brad and Brittany situation, say on Vendettas. The two of them literally fucked more than two rabbits that were like, you know, stuck in a cage together for a month.

Like it was to the point where people were just like all right now this is just getting egregious you know what i mean so it was something like that they're going to show like the first or second time to hook up but they're not going to show every single time yeah this last season final reckoning there was a lot of hooking up going on dude it seems like it a lot and kyle was responsible for about half of it and that's what that's what blows my mind with that guy is like these girls knowing that it was like, you were just with, you know, faith last night. I mean, not that Ashley has, has any semblance of, uh, you know, self-respect, but you'd think, come on. I will say this about Ashley. Good competitor, good competitor, sort of. She

threatens to quit all the time and does, but I will say this about Ashley. She's like Paula where she doesn't apologize for who she is. She's unapologetically her. And I got to say, that's refreshing because a lot of these girls will do dumb shit, hook up, make bad decisions,

wake up next day and be like, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. Ashley's like, yeah, I did it. So what? And I think that's kind of a, you know. Did Tony take it personally that he's kind of the Will Chamberlain

of bad hookup decisions. And then Kyle comes in and is hooking up with everyone, including the camera crew. Like, what is Tony? Tony looks at that. It must be like, wow. It's like Will scored 100. Then somebody comes in and scores 150. Yeah, dude.

Yeah. I mean, Kyle just walks around with a giant boner. He's fucking knocking over cups all day. It's like, you know, it's like, I mean, he literally is, you know, he's an absolute savage human being. I'm unapologetic about it. Totally unapologetic. Just enjoys having sex. But you know what's funny is, and this, I've heard this from all of the UK kids, Kaylee, Melissa, Kyle, Joss.

It's like, they're like, you guys make such a big deal about hooking up on TV. In the UK, the shit that they get away with. Oh, yeah. You want to talk about scandalous, dude? joss it's like they're like you guys make such a big deal about hooking up on tv in the uk yeah the shit that they get away with oh yeah you want to talk about that scan list dude no uh x on the beach i mean they're literally going in and they're sleeping with three four five different people on the show and it's like no one even blinks at it here it's a group of one person and it's front page news i literally sit next to angela on a bus and it's all anyone could talk about for a month it's like guys we like made out like let's let's give it a bus and it's all anyone could talk about for a month. It's like, guys, we like made out.

Like, let's give it a rest here. That's why I was so smart to bring in the UK people. For what? On the challenge. They just ratcheted it up, man. Emphasis on the ratchet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They really brought it to another level.

Well, you came in single to the last challenge for the first time in a long time. Last two, yeah. Yeah. I never liked when, I always liked the unattached bananas in the challenge. Thank you, man.

I do too. It's just more fun. It's less fun when you basically are like in one of those Richard Dreyfuss shark cages and all the sharks are swimming around

and you can't get out of the cage. It's a double-edged sword and here's why. Having someone, being in a relationship going on the challenge, it literally, and if you're faithful,

which I was, it completely removes a very messy, difficult part of the challenge, which is hooking up. No, and also political hookups. Exactly.

You don't know if somebody likes you because they like you or they like you because they want to get attached. I don really care i'm like use me abuse me just yeah please i'm right here get me an uber home um um with uh i don't i don't i don't mind that aspect it's more though if say i start hooking up with a girl and this kind of happened this season with angela um people then turn on her based on her hooking up with me and they kind

of ostracize her and now it's kind of her job and my job to kind of keep an eye on the other one when it's not necessarily it kind of makes the game more difficult because now you're kind of forced to vouch for a person or protect a person that you otherwise wouldn't have to yeah however from a television standpoint i mean that wasn't that was kind of an arrow in my quiver that was missing for a long time. Again, no pun intended. Arrow in the quiver. It was where, where, you know, I had so, so, which is why I kind of relied so heavily on the being controversial and stirring the pot and this and that, because that whole hookup aspect portion of Johnny Bananas wasn't available. I love when you go third person.

You like that? Yeah. I just had an adult body experience. Yeah. So you, last year you were in like a whole weird love triangle. It was even like a love, it was a love rectangle.

Tony calls it a quadruple triangle. But what's amazing is Tony's not involved in any triangles or rectangles. No, Tony's, listen, man, Tony. Did he chemically castrate himself? What happened? Cause he was the horniest guy in the history of the challenge. Um, I think it was, it could have, it's partially that I think. Couple of kids maybe. Losing a spleen. Yeah. I think, um, I think the kids, I think Tony curbing his drinking. I think that that was a huge part of it where he now, for the first time, and I've seen him like this, really wants to be a better person. And he wants to make better decisions.

And I think he realizes I have three girls, including Alyssa, in addition to Isla and Harper, that I need to look out for and I need to be a good role model for and me getting drunk on TV and making bad decisions. I think that's just an image that he didn't want anymore. And I think- It's an image I wanted. I get it.

No, for TV, it's amazing. I miss drunk Tony. Me too, man. I love drunk Tony. But the thing is, I also, it's like, care about the guy, you know, off camera.

And it's like, you don't want to see someone that you actually give a shit about making decisions that are going to affect their lives outside the show it's like with me whatever dude i you know i can be an idiot and do things i don't have other human beings that are relying upon me whereas he does you know is leroy ever going to win the title is he just like one of those one of those athletes dude that just like goes his whole career he's like philip rivers

like oh man it would be nice to see him in a Superbowl. It really would. he, listen, dude, the guy makes it to finals, man. You know what I mean? He makes it.

And, and I think it's just never happened. It's never happened. But then again, it's like, you know, me and him have never, well,

actually we were on, you know, his first season rivals one, we were in a final together, but the Cubs won the world series. Lee can win the challenge. I mean, he could do it.

Look at the Browns. The Browns won a game this season. Yeah. The Browns won a game this season. Yeah, the Browns won a game. Listen, Tiger Woods just won a championship. Tiger Woods came back. Dude, so this might be the year for Leroy. Well, he's out of this challenge, but the next one he'll be in, right? Possibly.

We'll see. Is he still your best friend? Dude, are you kidding me? Best friend. We're more than friends, just slightly less than lovers. Is he still in Las Vegas? Yep. I was just with him last week shooting a segment for First Look.

Yeah. We raced dune buggies in the sand. So obviously, I'm going to try and get as many people. I want to do a crossover sort of thing where I'm going to try and get as many people that I like and care about from the challenge to shoot segments with me for First Look. So yeah, last season, we wrapped up a segment called Mr. Sandman on First Look, where we profiled different sand sports. So one of them was sand sculpting in Coney Island.

Yeah. One of them was desert survival. So I had to survive all night in the desert. Leroy was racing dune buggies. And then yesterday, I was in a thing called Wasteland Weekend. I think I told you it's like Mad Max meets Burning Man. Super crazy. So yeah, it's a whole different challenge I'm doing now.

I'll tell you what, Bill. What about Teej? Can you get Teej to come in and somebody quits in front of him and then TJ kills him with an arrow? Or like, yeah, or make some, or make some, no, you know what would be even better? If they quit in front of him, then they're forced to jump off one of the massive jumps in his backyard in a bicycle

with no helmet into, into a pit. Did he get hurt again recently? Yes. What happened? Dude. Okay. This is, but this is why I love TJ, man. This is why I love TJ.

TJ had an accident, you know, years back that literally almost cost him his life. Yeah. He was in like a fucking coma. Medically induced coma. Right. He still like, isn't his, you know, he still has, you know, he's still, you know, regaining, you know, some functions. But it's like this guy after that, if I had an accident that bad, I'd literally be in

a padded room wearing a helmet at home, you know, every day. You know, I wouldn't even want to go outside to pick up the newspaper. TJ, on the other hand, is in the back, it is in his backyard, 41 years old, still flying off these massive jumps. So, yeah, he didn't stick his landing. Cut up his knee pretty bad. And actually, the worst part of the injury was he took the edge of the handlebars to his forehead. So, it gashed his forehead open. Luckily, he didn't, you know, bang his head on the ground.

Luckily, there was no, you know, cognitive or brain damage, but it's like, what I love about that guy is, dude, no matter how old that guy gets, no matter, you know, what he goes through, you can't stop the competitor in that guy. And he'll just always be out there competing and kicking ass, dude. I love him for it. And judging quitters. And judging quitters. That's what you love about him. It's like on the challenge, it's almost like there's this saying, I think it was Mark Wahlberg actually said, he goes, I'll never take training advice from someone who's in worse shape than me. And it's like with TJ, it's almost like I would never listen to someone

or take advice from someone or take motivation from someone who, as a host or someone on the show, you know, that wouldn't be willing to do the same thing that i am or hasn't done the same thing and it's almost like with tj he's done so much more death defying shit than we have and more dangerous more crazy shit it's like that's why it's like more than anything i'm almost i almost feel like tj in a way is like i want to please my father you know what i mean where it's like yeah i want tj to be impressed when i when i do something and tj's like good job daps me up like Like keep going. Like great challenge. You guys really competed out

there. That means more to me than like anything else, dude. So it's like, absolutely, man. I mean, coming from him, it carries a lot more weight than it does just coming from, you know, what's the PD situation on the challenge these days. I mean, at this point, at this point, it should just be like, they should hand out syringes at the front door. You know what I mean? It's unbelievable. I mean, dude, the last couple of seasons, not to name names, but they've literally in front of us confiscated.

Please don't name names. They've literally confiscated. I mean, everything you could imagine, dude. Yeah. And it's funny because some of the guys now are just open about talking about it all day long. Cycles, they go on. For a million bucks.

When they're on or when they're off. You can see though. I mean, if you watch, if you watch very close in the episodes you'll notice the guys who day one come in and they look like you know an ice sculpture and then two weeks later they look like a deflated balloon i mean that's generally a pretty good idea of of uh who's on the sauce wouldn't that hurt your challenge absolutely like It would get worse as it goes along, right? Here's the problem, and this is what a lot of people don't understand. Competitors, even guys who've been on the challenge for a long time, is it's not necessary. The strength,

the heavyweight strength, I'm going to man in the sand, beat you to the ground aspect is so such a small part of the show. It's like one out of every five challenges. More than that. One out of every ten. The one this week was like people had to run on treadmills

going different ways. So these guys come in and they're jacked. It's like they can't reach around to wipe their own ass and it's like, oh yeah, today you're going to be balancing on a beam or running across a moving log or dangling from your balls and it's like, it's not going to help you. The dangling from the balls challenge was one of the best ones ever.

Bro, and that's what I'm saying. The guys that weighed more, it was more painful for them. You want to be light on a challenge like that. The less weight you have hanging from your balls, the better. Yeah. They always find a way to torture somebody's balls in the challenge. As difficult as the challenge has been and everything that I've accomplished, it's like this first look is like the challenge now for me

has been doing what comes so naturally to you. And that is being a host. Yeah. Having conversations. Being a point guard. Being a point guard, dude. Having conversations, being interested and not interesting. Yeah.

It's been really difficult for me. And it's because on the challenge and on reality TV, it's all about dominating conversations, getting as many sound bites in as you can, everything being a punchline, you know. Being a character. Being a character. Whereas on first look, it's completely different. They're like, listen, here's the flow of the conversation we want. Here's the questions we want you to hit. Ask a question and let them talk as long as you want. And, you know, you don't have to, everything doesn't have to be a punchline. It's okay to be vulnerable and to open up and to be sensitive. We're on the challenge. The second you open up and you're vulnerable, man, you're dead. And in addition

to that, every shoot that I do for first look every day is something different. I go from the NFL to, you know, to a haunted house in Miami. Yeah. To cheerleading, to wrangling iguanas in South Florida, to the South of France. I go from hanging out with, you know, guys who spend their lives literally catching iguanas on fishing poles to going to the South of France and sitting at the same table as the CEO of Emirates Airline, the CEO of Southern Wine and Spirits and the biggest wine producer in France and like the boug same table as the CEO of Emirates airline, the CEO of Southern wine and spirits and the biggest wine producer in France and like the bougiest people on

the planet. So it's like from day to day, I literally have to be like a chameleon and fit into so many different circumstances and work. Is it harder or less hard than being in the top bunk when Brad and Brittany are having sex for the 330th time? It's, it's difficult in a different way it's less because i don't sleep in the bunk beds just shaking you get used to it man you get used to that's the thing you get used to not sleeping on the challenge you really do get used to not

sleeping i mean it's it's it you know it's even more difficult than the bed shaking usually i'm in a room with eight nine ten dudes yeah snoring you got guys each one of them it's like a chorus dude i had i have to put in like earplugs eye masks like dude I have to do like the I look like a helicopter pilot

I got earplugs and earphones over that to try and sleep but how many roommates are in the bed? it depends so this last

could be like four? last season we had two four six eight ten people in our bedroom. All guys.

Oh, my God. It's like Grand Central Station. How many bathrooms? In the house, there was one, two, three bathrooms. Jesus. I know. For like 25 people? I think I got one hot shower the entire time I was there.

Are you retired from the challenge now? Absolutely not. So you can do this first look show and do the challenge so nbc is nice enough to uh work around the challenge schedule so essentially whenever i'm filming the challenge they shut down and as soon as i'm done i mean dude i got back from final reckoning i was home for two days i got home on a saturday monday I was in Minneapolis doing American Ninja Warrior. And then after that, it was just on the road. I've literally, since May, since the end of May, I've been home for a total of about 12 days.

I've been on the road filming every day for First Look since then, pretty much. Very important question. Karmically, I don't know if you win the challenge again ever because of what you did. You haven't won since. Is it karma though? Might be karma. All I know is you won a lot of challenges. You were the MJ of the challenge.

Then you did the greatest move in challenge history. You backstabbed your partner and took her money. Now, is that the only thing that you've seen change since then? Or are there other factors that maybe contribute to that as well? I'm just saying you haven't won since and as a Bananas fan, I'm just worried that karmically you might have to atone. You might have to atone with her on the show.

What was her name? Sarah? What was her name again? Are you talking to her? She still hates you? Yeah, she still hates me. You took like $500,000 away from her. $275,000. But who's counting? $275,000 is not chump change it's nothing

nothing to poo poo about after taxes it's only one it was great you had to do it had to from a production standpoint I had to

like what like what do you want me to do not do the greatest movie challenge history she's never coming on again no no

she's she's done with the whole universe I think that ended her no she still does her Botox candy podcast but other than that is that what it's called yep

should be so you guys haven't made up no listen man she still does her Botox candy podcast. But other than that, is that what it's called? Yep. Should be. So you guys haven't made up. No, listen, man, she says what she says on social media. Sometimes I'm not even going to gratify with response.

As far as I was concerned, listen, she took the first shot. I took the second shot. We're even man. I mean, let's just leave it at that. But going back to the car, the,

the, the car MEDIC, uh, aspect winning six, winning number six, put me in a category where it went from. We don't necessarily like what this guy's done to this guy's never going to win again. I'm the only person that walks into a house when our car is kind of in the same boat and she gets where I'm coming from, where I walk in day one and it's me against the entire house. It's like being the New England

Patriots, the New England Patriots after an undefeated season, winning the Superbowl coming to the next season where every team you get their best shot. And that's kind of the, that's kind of where I'm at now is based on what I've accomplished based on how good I am at the game, based on the amount of wins I've had and whatever the the notoriety I've gained I come in every season and everybody if there's one thing they can agree on it's let's get bananas the fuck out of here and that's how it's been the last few seasons it's a smart play but what I'm saying is it's not I don't believe in karma dude I like to believe that I like to, that I determined my own fate. It's, I think me not winning is more a product of what I've accomplished. And the, and, and, and the fact that people, even my own friends, all right.

Even people who I consider my friends don't want to see me win. Last season, me and Tony were like thicker than thieves, right? I consider this guy, my best, he even stabs. It's like, if someone like Tony that I've literally like like looked out for as a brother you know what I mean and as in some ways

like you know as a younger brother and really like helped the guy through the game did everything I could pretty much to help the guy through he batted his boners down with a paddle

so he didn't have sex with somebody took him out of sticky situations you know what I mean if someone like that is going to turn on me it reminded me of Scarface when when Manny started sleeping with Tony's sister and Tony found out.

And it was like, really Manny? You're going to betray Tony? I know. That's how I felt about Tony and Bananas. Leroy would have never done that. Never. I judge all challenge friendships by you and Leroy. Me and Leroy are- You never do it. There's never, there never has been,

never will be a friendship as strong in mine and his, and that's on and off the screen. But, you know, going back to what I was saying was, you know, it's, you know, I show up and I have a harder hill to climb than anyone else ever has or ever will. I wouldn't change that for the world though. You know what I mean?

It's not like I'd go back and be like, man, I wish I was less successful. So, so people didn't come at me every, it makes my, it makes, it makes my, the game harder for me, but it makes it that much more entertaining because it's like, these people are helping me out by talking about me ad nauseum by forming these alliances and every new guy wanted to take out bananas. It's like, it's like, I'm, you know, the most talked about guy in the house without even doing anything. Just by nature of me showing up. So it's a tough, it's a very-

So how many years? What's the drought? Three years? Three year drought now? So it's been, I mean, dude, I've, let's see. It was rivals. Dude, I lose track of challenges. It was rivals.

I think you were on in like- Rivals three. Three years. You were on like two years ago. It's been about four challenges, you know? So Jordan has six. Brady has five. Kobe has five.

Shaq has four. Gretzky had five. Really, the one you're chasing now is Bill Russell. Seven. Yeah. Bill Russell at 11. I'm trying to think who had... Not really anybody had seven.

What about... Maybe there's like Sam Jones. Roger Federer. I'm going for Roger Federer's number. What's he at? Like 22 or something like that? Oh, the majors? Yeah, that's a tough one.

Maybe like Roger Federer at Wimbledon or something. Because he had like six or seven Wimbledons. Okay, Roger Federer at Wimbledon. You can't tell us how you did in this one. I'll tell you what, I do a lot better than any other person on the planet would have done in my position. Yeah. So, I mean, dude, like I said, man, nobody has to deal with what I have to deal with, dude. Showing up and having every single person in the house every day.

It's like every day I show up, if I don't show up and give my best at a challenge every day, I'm fucked. Whereas everyone else could come. It's like, they're in this alliance. As long as I'm in the house, that means everybody else is safe essentially, because it's, everyone's just focused on me.

Yeah. And until I'm gone, that's how it's going to be. So, and everyone's, dude, it's, it's just,

that's just the nature of the beast, you know? All right, just win another challenge. Stop making excuses. I'm not making excuses. You just win one. You are making excuses as well. It's not, I'm just trying to make the beast. All right, just win another challenge. Stop making excuses. I'm not making excuses. You just win one. You are making excuses as well.

It's not, I'm just trying to make the point that it's not karma. I think you should call Sarah and apologize. You think that would make it all better? Yeah, you got to get her on your side. You have her number? She's probably like got some witchcraft shit going on against you.

Listen, believe it or not, her mother is a wizard. Something's going on. Her mom's a wizard in Costa Rica. She like, her mom's like a, like a witch, dude. So first, first look launches on NBC at one o'clock AM. It's on after SNL.

So whenever. Yeah. 102, 103 AM. Different markets. Just set it on your DVR. Set it on your DVR. Unless you're a night owl like Bill over here. I'm not a night owl anymore.

Yeah, he is. Bill still sends me nudes at 1 a.m on a regular basis and apologies to your lawyer who you wanted to call during the podcast so uh i i immediately banished okay so just so you know my guy alex spiro yeah um is he's a new england guy just like just like okay but you don't you guys wrote an order friends on the podcast he's not a friend he's my attorney and he wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to say anything that was going to... Now that I'm on NBC, he's like, dude, I got to make sure you're not going to say this. It's going to jeopardize your future.

And he just... Dude, he just got done... We have two small edits we're going to make. I'll tell you after what they are. He just got done defending Julian Edelman in his PE case. And he was on Aaron Hernandez's defense team. And I mean, he's a New England guy. You guys have, he's a few guys.

You ever get in any trouble? All right, you gave him a shout out, but we're not calling him on the podcast. Where are you living now? LA or? Orange County still. Orange County. I'm still waiting for you to let me move

into the guest house, man. I thought that was part, when you can't, well, dude, maybe it was the alcohol talk. When I came and gave the toast for Grantland, you're like, hey, honey, do you mind if Bananas moves into my office in the back? And I think she was okay with it. I don't remember that.

You don't? No, I don't remember that. I do remember your toast, though. We got it on video. That was a great toast. That was one of the last parties. I know, man. Well, no, it was the last party I've been invited to.

No, we haven't had one. Really? We had one ringer party, but you were away in the challenge. If anyone- And now I don't have parties at my house anymore. Dude, that was awesome, man. It's just scary times these days. Hanging out, taking shots with Jalen Rose, Seth Meyers, you know, almost pushed me in the challenge. If anyone. And now, now I don't have parties at my house anymore. Dude, that was, that was awesome. Scary times. Hanging out,

taking shots with Jalen Rose, Seth Meyers, you know, almost pushed me in the pool. I mean, that was, that was, that was a cool.

We, was there an ice luge at that one? No, but there's going to be one at my premiere party on Saturday in Manhattan. If you're going to be there. there you go.

All right. It's going to be banana ice luge there. Mr. Bananas, congrats on everything. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate you having me, man. All right.

Thanks so much to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to check them out at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to TheRinger.com. Thanks to The Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks to KOC and Bananas. Thanks to Starbucks Double Shot. Starts with bold Starbucks coffee blended with milk for a smooth, creamy, delicious flavor. Enhanced with ginseng, guarana, and B vitamins.

Makes you sharp. I could use one right now. It's only like 11 o'clock in the morning, I think. I need more caffeine. Starbucks Double Shot. Energy to do the things you actually do. Find it in your local convenience store. Hey, guess what?

We have another podcast coming tomorrow. We're doing four this week. Just, we're feeling it. So stay tuned for that. Until then.