The Bill Simmons Podcast - John McEnroe on the Knicks, the Greatest Match Ever Played, and Improving Tennis (Ep. 235)

Episode Date: July 7, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by John McEnroe to discuss the current state of the New York Knicks (5:00), the parallels between basketball and tennis (11:14), tennis at the collegiate level (24:44), McEnroe's first Wimbledon (27:03), the infamous tantrums (35:25), growing the game of tennis (49:40), and the 1980 Wimbledon men's singles final (1:05:05). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We love it. Game of Thrones coming up, but right now basketball season's still happening. A lot of signings, a lot of big picture stuff. Good times all the way around. If you missed it, I did two podcasts this week. One on Monday with Daryl Morey and Jimmy Iovine. And then the other one

on Wednesday, I did a little free agent through five days recap thing with Chris Ryan where we talked about Gordon Hayward, Paul George, all that stuff. So if you missed that, go check it out on my podcast. Coming up right now is a podcast that I taped two weeks ago with John McEnroe, who was one of my heroes growing up for sports. My favorite tennis player ever. Loving to death and never had him on a podcast. We did something in October of 2015.

We were at the Vanity Fair Summit together, hung out in the green room for two hours, shooting the crap about tennis, then hung out on the stage for an hour and then drove to the airport for another. We hung out for four hours. It was like a four-hour podcast that I didn't record. Talked about so much stuff.

And I'm just fascinated by the guy. I think not only one of the great athletes I've ever watched, I thought he was a true genius on the court, the way his mind works on a whole bunch of stuff. I'm really intrigued by it. We taped this before the Serena Williams controversy that he found himself in a couple days after we taped the interview. really intrigued by. We taped this before the Serena Williams controversy that he found himself in a couple of days after we taped the interview. So unfortunately,

we did not get to cover that. But we got to cover a lot of other stuff. It's a long one. If you love Johnny Mac and if you love tennis and if you want to hear some interesting ideas of maybe how to fix tennis, he came up with one that I was so jealous of, I can't even tell you. But all that is coming up right now. But first, our friends, the Rock and Roll this sometime in June, late June. So if anything happens in tennis between now and when we run this, I apologize. I don't think, what can happen?

Somebody might pull a hamstring? Someone would get hurt, yeah. A couple people would bail out. Pull a calf. That probably will happen to one of the top ten contenders in the men's or women's or both, but hopefully not. Yeah. Well, hopefully not. John McEnroe.

You've never been on this somehow. No. We've never done a podcast together. We did like a four-hour podcast that wasn't taped when we were at the Vanity Fair Summit a while ago. We just talked the whole time. Yeah, that was fun. It was an unrecorded version of a whole bunch of things.

It was amazing. It was amazing. You'll never hear it. One of the most unforgettable moments of your life. You're one of my sports heroes growing up. Not to kiss your butt, but it's true. Tell me more. I loved watching you.

Yeah, it was great. And it was a delight to meet you and talk to you and pick your brain on stuff. Yeah, it was a good couple of days and then it just all vanished. Then we fell apart, yeah. I don't know what happened. But you're in New York. You need to be near the failing Knicks and all your teams. I have a great mix of being able to spend some time in Malibu, which I love, and L.A., but I am a New Yorker at heart, obviously.

So I get that the pain that you mentioned is getting excruciating, but with most of the teams that I'm into right now, but I can't explain it. I couldn't in my wildest dreams have thought that it would get to this low, this bad with the Knicks. I mean, I could do this better job. It actually would have been fun if you ran them for three years. I don't know if it would have been much different. I think that we would have done better. But I mean, I thought initially that that made sense, that the Zen master would sort of pull it together.

But I don't know. I mean, for a guy who obviously got a lot of interesting things to say over the years and inspired some people and done a great job coaching, I don't get what's happened. He's lost it. Or I don't know. I wish I knew. Some of the Knicks celebrities who go to the games are always worried to criticize the Knicks because Dolan sometimes well yeah Jen's been nice enough over the years every now and then yeah I mean you sit on the floor of a basketball game it's one of the greatest perks you'll ever get I mean it's amazing you see these athletes and the intensity and they're drawing at each other I mean to, I love it.

So that's, you got to be, I suppose, in this case, because Jim has been criticized so many times in the past. He meddled in the affairs, and Lenny Wilkins was there a year or two, and Larry Brandt, everybody, it seemed like. And finally, I guess he listened to enough people. He decided, look, I'm going to let Phil Jackson take over. Now he's criticizing, even get rid of him. Right. And he's hesitant. I guess he listened to enough people. He decided, look, I'm going to let Phil Jackson take over. Now he's criticizing even get rid of him. Right. And he's hesitant, I'm sure, to get rid of him because he's like, look, I don't want to be the fall guy for the for once, you know, blame somebody else. So, I mean, it's a good problem to have. I mean, meanwhile, the team has gone up and

three times in value. God knows what it's worth. And they win 25, 30 games, which is amazing. Well, every team in the league just keeps going up and up. So no matter how bad the Knicks are, they're still in New York and all the NBA values go up. I can't bear to watch. I can't bear this a whole lot longer because this seems it's gotten to be of train wreck proportions. You're barely old enough to remember 73, right?

Well, I mean. The title team? Are you kidding? Of course I remember a lot of that. Yeah, I mean, I first started going to the Madison Square Garden probably, I'd say 68, 67, 68. There you go. Very rarely.

I mean, could my parents afford to go to a Nick or Ranger game? But I thought that happened regularly. I mean, I thought this was going to be normal. Because, I mean, when you had Clyde and then they got Earl, the Pearl. And, I mean, there was an amazing team. And just the type of team that you look at with sort of, to some extent, Golden State, but pass first type of selfless guys that just play defense. Red Holtzman was the greatest.

Everything just seemed so rosy. Willis, you know, limping out. Everything about it was amazing. So now, I mean, I guess the one part I feel bad about over the course of my Nick, being a fan of the Knicks, was when Patrick Ewing got drafted. And I sort of, I wasn't really like a big Ewing lover in the beginning, but that was like, to me, a monumental mistake. Cause not only is he far different than what he appeared,

which I should be able to relate to in my own world. He seemed out to be a tremendously, I mean, I don't know him well, but just a tremendously nice person and just totally underappreciated they brought rel he brought relevance and uh i mean i wish obviously he had won a couple but uh that uh i was i personally and i think a lot of others at the time were sort of hard on him what do you think was the lowest moment of the last 40 years as the next fan what was your what was your? Somewhere, was it one of the Hubie Brown years? I can't remember.

Like the mid-80s? Like after Bernard got hurt? I think I did a charity event in Tahoe once, and I believe, don't quote me on this, but Rory Sparrow was a center fielder, and I was at bat, and he was so close. He was just like, you can't even hit it over my head. And I thought, this guy, I've just got to pull this off.

And I did. I'm sure I couldn't do it now, but just the satisfaction of sort of... Torching Roy Sparrow. Well, yeah, exactly. So I sort of felt like around, I think he was around that time. Wasn't that the same time? I mean, it just seemed to just horrendous time. Yeah. And that would probably be just before Patrick got drafted.

I would say that was probably the low point, although this has gotten to be so bad that I really felt bad for Mello. I mean, Mello, who's not been on the highest. I mean, he always seems like a nice person, and he's a heck of an offensive player, but he wasn't necessarily like that wouldn't have been the approach that I've made or done some of those things, even though he's a tremendous scorer. But then when the way that Phil's tried to sort of, the way it's been handled just seems so bad that I really,

I made a point a couple of times of just saying to him, look, I feel that this is just totally, one of the few times where I was close and maybe before a game starts, not like he's calling me, hey, John, how's it going? But just to be like, look, I just disagree with this.

You don't deserve this. I mean, you can be criticized because you don't play enough defense or you haven't made the guys around you good enough, but you shouldn't be criticized for sort of, he's been a pro and he's, I think pretty much what you saw before is what you were going to get. And that's what he's given them. And it's sparked some excitement for a while, but he's gotten too much of the blame. He'll have one last run on a good team, I feel like. I don't know what that team is.

If he's willing to leave the Knicks, I mean, he better start thinking about it soon. Yeah, seriously. Basketball, going to a basketball game, especially with good seats, and going to, let's say, Wimbledon, and you're close. I feel like those are the two most naked sports.

You can, the athletes right there, you can read their expressions. You can really feed off them. You really almost feel like you have a feel for what they're actually like as a human being, which is unfair and not true, right? How much is true? How much is not true?

Well, that's the unanswerable question because you can be that person for a brief period of time. I mean, I went out there and I was like a crazed guy. Yeah. I'm not that, I don't know, you could ask, maybe my kids would feel differently at times or my wife or ex-wife. But I don't feel like that. That's like a way that you've got to get yourself, that you have to focus your energies and everything that you're thinking and doing into sort of trying to figure out a way to beat a guy. And so that requires a

lot of focus and concentration and things that every little thing, I mean, I was too much. I mean, there's no question. That's why I like basketball so much. It seems like they found that right mix where they're into it, that you can hear trash talking but they're also having some fun yeah which is what i think the team sports have over individuals i had a harder time just by myself being able to really appreciate the moment you know feeling like i'd lose my edge that's sort of the way i grew up um you you can't throw out a one-liner and say something light you might hurt yourself um so that was probably, for me personally, my biggest regret while I played.

Connors was able to do that, which really infuriated me. He'd tell someone to blank themselves, and then the next thing you know, he'd sort of have his arm around the same guy, and he'd sort of go, oh, that's what you want, huh? And they'd be laughing. I'd go, how the hell does he do that? We'd play at the Open, and somehow it'd be, he's the New Yorker do that we'd play at the open and he'd be

somehow it'd be he's the new yorker i go wait a second he grew up in east st louis i grew up in douglas and queens and how the hell are they putting in the in the new york times or any of these papers he's like the real new yorker so that drove me crazy but i respected him for it i gotta say that that he was able to do that. And I respect, I mean, I guess with Federer, for example, the thing that I look at with Roger is that he loves it so much. That's the part that truly, the one thing, if I envy something, I wish I was able to sort of- Like loves like being the center of attention at a match and everything that goes with it? Well, I mean, I don't think any of us dislike that, but it's just everything about it. And he loves to practice and he loves to travel

and he loves the press conferences. He obviously loves, I mean, who doesn't want to go to women? But I mean, he'd shrug off losses a lot easier to me. I mean, to me, as I got older, they stuck with me longer. I didn't learn from them. That was what really hurt me, I think, in my career. And I didn't, the guy's got four kids and I'm thinking I couldn't juggle one, two, way that I wanted it to go. And yet here he is where he's now 35 and he did one of the most miraculous things that I've ever seen in a sport or tennis to be able to win at Australia the way he did and come from behind in the fifth set against Nadal, who was like the craziest competitor that makes Connors look like

maybe he's tried harder than Connors, which I thought was impossible. So that, that, those parts of it, I sort of wish I had, uh, That wouldn't have made you, you though. No, I don't. I think I could have been me and, uh, been a little bit more, uh, smelled the roses a little better. Yeah. I mean, almost like I, one of the reasons why I wrote the book in a way is it's sort of cathartic in a way, but sort of evaluating yourself as a person, as you get older, post 50, reinvent,

whatever you want to call it to get like, look, I mean, don't look at, I mean, in the beginning of the book, I talk about my match that I lost to Lendl in the 84 French, which, you know, to this day sort of haunts me in a way and I do when I go to the French every year I have these like a nightmare basically where I relive it almost and it just I mean it drives me crazy in a way but I think that each year's gone by I feel like I handle it a little better and people have those same things in their own lives you know it doesn't have to be the match per se but it's like what type of example am i sending to anyone especially myself if i'm thinking about i should have done

that instead of hey i did do a lot of things yeah so i feel in a way almost like tennis more which is sort of sad now i like getting out there and i feel like oh god i'm real close i think i can maybe do something well not come, but just feel like I can still play, you know, not best of five. I get tired after one set I'll play against, you know, at this point I'm playing guys like at times Andy Roddick. Well, he's 34 and I'm 58 and he should still be, I mean, he's chosen not to play in the circuit because he didn't like the traveling, a lot of the stuff that goes along with it that I was saying Roger did like. Yeah. And that drove Andy in a way out of the game because to me, he'd still be top 20 in the world.

Yeah. So what the hell is he playing me? So that drives me a bit crazy. But at the same time, I feel fortunate that at least I'm at least remotely a couple of times, sort of not that far away from at least having a good competition while hopefully putting on a good show. But I know my days, I've been lucky. It's 40 years since I played Wimbledon. Yeah. My first Wimbledon when I was 18 years old. So the fact that I can even sit here and say that I'm walking out on a tennis court in a reasonably one piece, when you think of football players,

for example, whose average lifespan is 20 years less than the average person around my age. Yeah. And I've known a fair amount of football players that are like cripples, these poor guys. And so I consider myself fortunate in a way. When I take a look back, I remember times where I was thinking that tennis on the one hand was a bit of a sissy type thing. And, you know, it was like the upper class. I mean, everyone looks at it that way.

Obviously, golf and tennis. Golf, are you kidding? They don't even run in golf. I mean, Jesus. It's a classy. Not that it's not the toughest game, like way tougher than tennis. It's crazy. I mean, it's an insane game.

But that these guys and you get a football player, and I'm thinking to myself, I was at a couple of games back when my buddies were playing, the Bears way back when in 86 when they played the Giants in the playoffs, and it was 17 below zero on the field. And I'm thinking to myself, thank God I'm a tennis player. Thank the good Lord. This start to appreciate this more instead of whining about it seems like it's a bit, you know, upper class and which, which I've always wanted to change, but it just hasn't changed. It's if anything is more difficult in a way it's more expensive.

And that's sort of our society in a microcosm and similar to tennis because the rich have gotten richer and it's more difficult to be able to afford it. And that's one of the things I've been wanting or trying to change in New York with my tennis academy, because it's just the best athletes are playing basketball or playing football or the size of a tennis court. They're putting 20 kids kicking a soccer ball and they think that, oh yeah, they know how to play soccer. They kick it. Well, tennis isn't that simple. You know, it's, you can't bluff that you can play and just kick it around. You need, it's a lot harder to get over the initial hump. So this cuts out like 99% of the people. That's, you know, people always, where's the next American, you know, champion? Well, let's try to give some of these kids a chance to do it. And I

think we could succeed. There's one other factor that I don't hear mentioned a lot, but I went through the thought process with my daughter who's 12 now and she's a soccer player, but she could have played a bunch of different sports and tennis. She was just naturally good at, and she's tall. And you look at it as a parent and you go, my kid loves being on teams. She loves having teammates and just being part of something bigger than just one person. And tennis is lonely. And you're out there all the time, and it's like five, six, seven hours. My wife and I talked about it, and neither of us felt like she had the kind of personality to just be like, I'm by myself just banging balls.

Does it take a certain type of personality to succeed? Yeah. I mean, excuse me. I think part of the issue with tennis is that in addition to it, you're out there by yourself and the loneliness of it and the difficulty of being able to handle a loss, for example, because you got no other teammates to sort of cry or put your shoulder. Right, it's just you. Now they're saying, well, they got to focus on it exclusively. This is in all sports, but I think that I completely disagree with it. As a matter of fact, I believe that part of the reason why I ended up eventually becoming the best player in the world is that I had other experiences playing basketball.

For example, I played four years of soccer all all those movements helped me in tennis but more importantly it helped me with sort of friendships it helped me with dealing with people um so i could maybe people didn't see it at first but hopefully growing up and you know trying to figure out life that My way of growing up might have been a little different than most. But now they're, in addition to that, on top of this, they're homeschooling kids. So they're already isolated when they're on the tennis court. Then they're further isolated. They're homeschooled. And so these people don't have a function in society in a way, and they're just awkward, and they're not able to grow up, and they can't handle the success, the 1.1% that have it anyway. So that makes no sense.

Now, my final thing that I sort of really hopefully will change also is the idea that this need, oh no, you go to college, it's terrible, terrible for your tennis. There's no players that can play and it's a step down. And that at some point was true. And it's also, maybe it is somewhat true that the competition level is obviously far less than it would be if you were trying to hit the circuit, the minor leagues. It's arguable either way. It's not like the minor leagues is some unbelievable thing but the uh players in tennis and even women uh girls used to be they peak would they could start at 16 and peak at 25 now you're and men would be say 18 and 19 to late 20s now you're seeing that it's probably with even the girls they may be sort of coming to their own 2021 and lasting to 30 say and the guys are 22 to 32 so

it's all the more reason to allow them to develop as human beings because it's not going to change the world look how tough it is for guys to try to win majors now at 20 you know becker won wimbledon at 17 v lander won the french at 17 this is in the 80s uh michael Michael Chang in 1989 won it. Nadal was 19, I believe, when he won the French. Djokovic was 19 when he won the Australian. But basically, few and far between for the most part. Even Roger, I believe, was 22 when he won his first major. We're not sure he's human, though. That I agree with.

I don't think he bleeds. There was always rumors of a UFO dropping him off like 28 years ago or something. I mean, the guy loves everything. I mean, I remember recently he was playing the semis. This was not this past Open, the one before. I always found it difficult because you're following the first match. So, you know, that match could be an hour and a half. It could go four hours.

So you're trying to figure out when to eat and sort of rev up. So this match is going very quickly. I think Djokovic was beating Cilic real badly. And I go, Roger, doesn't that piss you off that, like, you obviously, you know, they want you out there? He's like, no. The fans will get to see me sooner. Yeah.

And, you know, you're like, he has a way of saying something that's pretty cocky. But it just sounds he's right on. And he also just says it in a way you can't help but like the guy because he's like, how did you do that shot? They'll ask him on the – it was pretty amazing, wasn't it? And he's right, though. He is right. It is amazing.

I feel like he's become an honorary American. Certain athletes from other countries are so beloved here that it's almost like we've adopted them. Like him and Usain Bolt, I feel like, are the honorary Americans. Yeah, he's that way all around the world. Yeah. I mean, everywhere he plays is a home. Like, if he made a run at the U.S. Open this year, the crowds would respond the same way that they would have with you and Connors or anybody from America in their primes.

Oh no, there's no question. Especially since we don't have Americans, you know, if we had an American, especially if I, if we had like, so say Francis Tiafa,

who's an up and comer, who's got a shot at doing something pretty big. If he was playing somehow got to the semis this year and he's playing Federer. I mean, I'd be trying to tell these people, look, theis this year and he's playing Federer. I mean, I'd be trying to tell these people, look, the guy, he's got 18. Is that enough? Maybe this poor guy won possibly. So, but it's amazing how people don't, they, uh, please let me get one more with Roger. I'm like, Roger, Jesus. Yeah. Let's get an American. Let's get somebody else in here.

I like your college thing though. I think it's get an American. Let's get somebody else in here. I like your college thing, though. I think it's smart because look at it this way. The last 20 years didn't work. That's for sure. We're doing something wrong. So if part of the rationale is, no, no, don't go to college, it's inferior competition. Well, the other way didn't work either. So maybe you're right.

Maybe we do need to. Well, and also. Maybe it's key to prepare somebody emotionally and intellectually and get them ready. That's true. A lot like Isner went to four years of college. He's been our best American. Steve Johnson was the greatest college player in history. He won the, I think he won like 70 straight matches, but he learned to compete. Steve Johnson in some ways is limited, especially compared to what the top players are, but yet he's a hell of a competitor. So he's gotten to 25 in the world. There's some basketball similarities with this, right?

Like Steph Curry's at college three years, has a big stage in March Madness, has a couple of great moments and that confidence. You know, you can lift that brain. Draymond Green went four years. Draymond, yeah. It's not all the time, but there are some good examples of it.

Tim Duncan, that's a pretty good example, right? Big fundamental. So I laugh because that's exactly the type of person you'd want in your wildest dreams. In tennis, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so the fact that people don't think that makes sense. In Europe, it's different. They don't have the college system that's set up. Apparently, there's not the opportunity or the excellence in a lot of the colleges. And maybe there's more traveling. I don't know the full details. Maybe some of it's money too, right? If you can turn pro and you're

19 and you're finishing second or fourth or fifth in some tournaments, you're making some cash. If you're finishing in the top, that's one thing. I mean, no one's saying if you're 10 in the world, you know, I was 21 in the world when I entered college. Yeah. So I'm an anomaly. No one ever would have done that. The highest ranked person that's gone in since is probably 400. Right. But that turned out to be one of the best decisions I ever made because it allowed me sort of time to gather myself and to prepare for what the rigors of the tour would be. I mean, a lot of them are great, but you have to sort of prepare for the constant traveling and the,

you're in all different parts of the world. And, and also because I had reached a pretty high ranking already, I was sort of the hunted in college. So that was good preparation. So how it would be when I was on the pros, everyone yelling at me and screaming, you were a bum. Yeah. What was the first tournament when you made a splash when people were like oh no this guy tennis's new bad boy wimbledon that was like uh 1977 okay i was

gonna i was gonna guess 78 but so my first my first wimbledon i sort of came from nowhere and um the big big fro uh do you have the fro with that when did you fully throw out i i just it depended i always wanted straight straight hair because I looked at, a couple of the guys I really looked up to were Vetus and Bjorn. I mean, Vetus's was a little wavier, but Bjorn's had the straight one. And my hair, when it was wet and I was out of the shower and combed it down, was like below my shoulders, but they're always froed out. So it drove me crazy.

So then I decided after a couple years of that of looking like uh bozo the clown or something right i better go with the shorter look that's got a like a natural wave so that worked a little better the the 77 wimbledon were they mean to you were they like who the hell is this guy they didn't know me so it was great the first year was such a crazy time in l in London with sort of the whole punk scene was happening. It was freaky there. I thought, I was like, they think I'm not weird? You know, or they call me a punk.

I'm like, go down King's Road and tell me what you see there. So I found it humorous. I actually had the time in my life knowing who I was. I was competing, winning, beating guys that I didn't think I'd beat. I was making my way through the tournament. The guy that had- Did you think you could be number one at that point? I didn't think I'd beat. I was making my way through the tournament. The guy that had- Did you think you could be number one at that point? I didn't think about it. You had no idea? No. Well, when I was 13, I played an event in Chicago and a guy wrote an article. I didn't know who the guy was, but it turns out he was an ex-tennis

player. And he said, I watched this national 14 and under indoors. And of all the people I see, I saw this one kid and I lost fairly early in the tournament. I predict in five to seven years, he's going to be number one in the world. So that threw me for a loop a little bit. So I did have a couple, and then Harry Hotman, who was an inspirational- Could you get girls from that article, or no?

No. Okay. Not even 21 in the world at Stanford. He still wasn't working. I thought that was going to real, I was like, all right, now I've got it made. And then I thought, oh my God, they don't care at all. So I got to get it to at least top five, if not higher.

So when did that start? Like 78, 79? It didn't take too long. But by the end, I went to college for a year. I turned pro in May of 78. By the end of 78, I had reached the top. I believe I was five or six in the world. And I won the masters.

You know, we used to play our year end top eight finishers at Madison Square Garden, which to me was like a dream come true. It was amazing. So, I mean, for me as a kid going to Nick games and my first concert, Led Zeppelin concert and the Rangers, I'm sitting there going, this is too good to be true. There's 19,000 people when i go out and play borg at madison's where connor's the first time i beat connor's after losing to him four times in a row was um at the garden he quit on me when i was a set and three love up and i just was like that's too bad you just quit because you were going to lose and because he was trying to take it away from me i felt like and i was like the hell so i just said made a point of putting my arms up and i listen i support all connor's bashing on this podcast i was always team johnny

mack from day one that's good we had to you had to pick in my opinion you couldn't have both and then when you guys when when you had lulls in your career in the mid 80s and you became the older guys you felt bad for both of us no i just gradually kind of accepted of connor's well because that lindell he's a lot older than me. So, I mean, he had a tremendous career. And I respected Connors. I didn't like him, but I respected him. Nah, come on. Because he gave a lot of... Don't even give him respect. He was like Pete Rose.

I give him nothing. You know, I thought him and Pete Rose were twins. Yeah. Somehow they're the exact same person played the exact same way. Terrible bowl haircut. Terrible bowl haircut. Just so intense. It was just beyond belief right just when pete rose ran over that poor guy in the all-star game and then that's how connor's was he just felt he's relentless well for you it's frustrating because you were like a genius the ceiling of your best

game was just going to be better than connor's but he was always going to be calm and calm and calm and calm rating to him but he tried to you if you lost yeah well i mean he was uh going to be calm and calm and calm and calm. It's infuriating to him. But he tried. Well, it's infuriating to you if you lost. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was, I mean, of all the guys I played against, I don't think there's ever been a guy. Maybe Chang was close. And I've seen a couple other guys that bring that all out. Nadal is the modern day Connors. People don't realize how extraordinarily difficult that is and how that is your biggest single quality by far in a sport. If you can bring it in every point, like it's the

last one you're going to play. If you can do that, you could not know what the hell you're doing and you'll be top 50 in the world easily. That's why Julio Cesar Chavez at his peak i still think was pound for pound the scariest boxer because he was like connor so you just he's just coming you you can't breathe he's he's on you you should have mentioned that to his son when he before he well that was because he forgot he forgot his father probably was like oh my god so disappointed this is the opposite of what i did let's go back to 77 though because that's, that's my favorite year for any city. And it kills me to say it as a Boston fan, but New York and 77,

there's just so much going on. And then you throw in London there, you went there where the punk rock scenes just going crazy. But then in New York, you had all the music you had Saturday night live. You had the disco scene is taken off. That wasn't my scene the yankees and reggie jackson i mean there's like you could go through it for a month all the things that are

going on then you're coming out of there too you know the probably the last local new york well that totally changed my life um i went there as a total nobody i missed my high school graduation i didn't go to the prom, but I was sent to Europe to play the French in Wimbledon for the juniors. And the next thing I know, I come back and people knew who I was. And I was like the super brat guy, which surprised me because I was amazed people even knew that I was playing. You didn't get that it would translate. I mean, now people listening, probably, what are you talking about? You can find out anything in two seconds. But in those days,

it just felt, how the hell did they, cause I thought they were just these sort of writers in England. They were sort of starting to get on me. It wasn't, it was only at the very end when I played, um, in the quarterfinals, which is my first sort of the second biggest stadium at Wimbledon. And I got upset. And the first time I ever questioned a call and people were actually watching and saw me get upset. And so I thought it was funny when they first were booing me. I thought, why are they booing me? I mean, I don't get it. I'm the one that's just lost his set. I pissed at myself and I, you know, I try to snap my racket and then it just all just exploded from there.

Nothing was ever the same after that for me. Hey, let's take a quick break to talk about Squarespace. Oh yeah. One of our longest sponsors here in the BS podcast. You've had these guys forever. Whatever your next big idea might be, count on Squarespace to help you create an eye-catching online platform that brings it to life. Whether you need a portfolio to showcase your work, a store to sell your products and services, or a blog to share your ideas, Squarespace gives you everything you need to look like an expert right from the start.

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Back to the one and only john mackinrow what's frustrating for me as as a diehard johnny mack fan the tantrums became part like in the first sentence of when people talked about you as a tennis player and i was always like that should be like second third fourth paragraph whatever yeah people got mad and there's a couple things but it was like i've just never seen anyone play tennis like you you know and i think there's a very small sorry to blow a lot of smoke i never had one but i feel like you got any free time the next well but it's like you know tiger is the same thing like it's not just that we lost tiger and this is sad what's happening to him but it was like i've never seen anybody play golf like him yeah you know and it's like i i think all of us

have been trying to replace it since he left all these guys are great all this next wave out dustin johnson and you go through but it's like all i know is when tiger was playing golf and he was on i was watching there was nothing else i wanted to do on the planet other than watch him play golf you had that and then you had borg who was, like, we'd never seen anybody like him either. There's pieces of Federer, I guess. But I think mostly Borg is a unique prototype that has not been replicated. Is that fair? I think that's fair.

Yeah. He's had this aura and this just look that was just tremendous. And a style to him. And he never really said anything. In 40 years or 50, I've been watching tennis. Only once did I ever see this. I was watching Wimbledon once and there was about 300 screaming girls

outside the locker room. And I thought to myself, I want to be a tennis player. I was probably 14 or 15 years old. I'd never been to London, and Borg was coming out, and it was like the beat, I mean, the equivalent. I mean, not comparing it, but that type of Beatlemania. It was like totally girls crying. Never has that happened to anyone before or since.

So there was something unbelievable about it. It was almost like One Direction. Like One Direction now is like Harry Styles. Well, maybe it is, but it's something like that where you can't believe how people are reacting to him without him even seemingly doing anything. And maybe the less he did, the more crazy people went. 2 a.m. in the morning, 1978,

him and Vetus Gerolaitis decide they like the same girl who gets her? There would be more than one of them around, I would guess, if they were both. They both settle on the same brunette. If it was only one, I would say that it would be an easy one, Borg. Really? Yeah. Because Vetus was a legend, though.

Vetus was a legend, but he didn't seem to care that much. Vetus would just say, it's going to happen anyway. I'll just wait around a few more minutes. I don't think that that was a problem they had, sort of doing that. They had all types of options. Vetus was one of the 30 for 30s when, 30 for thirties when I was there, when we were creating a series of all that stuff, Vetus was always,

I thought one of the great sports docs that could happen. Cause he seemed like, is it not happening? I hope it does happen. Cause it's maybe at some point, maybe it's too late. I don't think it's too late. It's never too late.

Right. He was, so you had that whole class of guys, right? Which is just never be recreated. I don't think so. Because those days it was, and had that whole class of guys right which would just never be recreated or reassembled ever you know because those days there was and the era combined with the guys the era and then you know the money wasn't as nearly as crazy uh and so you didn't maybe correlate oh i'm blowing god knows how much money if i do something stupid like stay out all night

at studio 54 because we our goal was like to me in a way was we wanted to be the greatest tennis players we could be but we also wanted to sort of be able to try to burn it and burn burn both ends of the candle yeah we wanted our cake and eat it too or attempt it we were going to do a hell of a job trying it was like the lebron wade carmelo all those guys if you put them in 1977 and they were up all night and disco had started in new york city and nobody knew what was bad for you and you're just going i think that's it i mean i hear that uh michael uh jordan i don't know this to be true but i heard that he used to like go down to you know oh yeah gamble on that gamble that is i'm guessing that's

not the healthy healthiest thing the night before but it didn't seem to matter when he beat up on the Knicks or most everyone else. And somehow he did it. But I think that that would be a tougher, it would even seem 20 years later, that that would be tougher to pull off or too many people around or taking your pictures. And they'd be like, how dare, like when, what's his name? Beckham did it. Right. With the Giants.

It was like, it was like the stew it feels like the stupidest thing ever you know you go rent a boat in miami although that maybe doesn't have one iota what has to do with the game but then you go to green bay where it's you know it's seven degrees and then you wonder why you dropped three balls uh and you're thinking well they're gonna blame it on the fact that you went there. If you caught him, no one would have said a word. Yeah. So if you do it, you better back it up. Chicken egg thing.

That was too bad because I think I was like, oh, God, he's going to have a bad game, and they're just going to be on him. And he could have shut him up, but he just had to do this, and now it's just going to continue. He's like the Nick Kyrgios of football. Nick Kyrgios is probably, of all the tennis players around, he's the best and most talented of any of them. Unbelievable talent. But the mental part is a large part of it.

The self-destructiveness is... I know. It's not like I don't know something about this. And so you try to tell these guys in a way, look, I mean, this is just, you're going down the wrong path here and you try to say it in a nice way or you if or you try to be truthful like i don't want to be a commentator i'm like bsing and you see him throwing a match you know and and he's technically he may not be tanking it but we know damn well everyone in tennis that he's not giving it the effort if that's the one thing i can't

watch when i commentate it's like people not giving it that you always call it out i don't like that i can understand having bad days and i can understand you freeze in front of people all types of things happen that you don't want to happen you prepare for so long and then you just lay an egg it's's the worst feeling in the world. But if you don't give an effort, you start to walk away. That is a tremendously bad feeling for yourself, but just a total black eye. Yeah. All right, so late 70s, who's the classic guys?

It's you and Borg. Connors, but he's already married a playmate. Yvonne's younger than me. He's younger. As far as, I just try to stay around those guys are you kidding like being around

Vidas I'm just saying Vlas Vlas to some degree oh yeah Vlas Nastassi is he involved there is he hanging out

yeah he hangs out the mad Hungarian he's actually Romanian Romanian the mad Romanian yeah what was his nickname the Romanian something

no I think that was I think he's just nasty you know he called me macaroni he's the only guy that called me macaroni. And he'd go up to girls, which was, you know, the dumbest thing ever to me. He'd be like, are you going to sleep with him or not? You know, I go, do you think maybe possibly you could have a little more tact than that? I don't want to go crazy here, but do you think maybe that's the wrong thing to say? But he'd say it to every one of them. You you know nine out of ten would slap him in the face and the other tenth would leave with him

uh the tenth one so i i don't know uh but but is it a good thing to have like that cluster of great guys because you're all measuring each other like that had to have helped you measuring each other off the court on the court on the court um And maybe off the court too. That's what I thought you were saying. Vitus and Bjorn were very good. They were probably the best friends. I looked up to Vitus. He was like the coolest guy in the world to me. He really did seem like the coolest guy.

I met him when I was, say, 12. And he was like the coolest guy at the Port Washington Tennis Academy. I'd go, how does this guy just had everything, it seemed like. I mean, you know, the long hair. He just had everything it seemed like i mean you know the long hair he just had the charisma the girls played he was the best never seemed to get tired unbelievably fit wow this is i gotta try to somehow uh get to the point where i'm somewhere like around him or get close to him and i mean credit, um, he didn't have to do this because we were from, we were both from Queens. And then the first open we ever played, uh, either one of

us that we got to the finals, we played each other and I beat him pretty handily. And it's sort of, I was 20, he was 24. So that was a tough one for him to take. I'm uh god rest his soul yeah and later on he says what are you doing um you want to come with me basically to studio 54 or whatever it was i'm like thinking yeah myself yes because i know whatever he's doing is going to be a whole or has set up it's going to be a whole lot better than what i had said yeah which was not very much so this but you know here's where i just lost him in the he'd be He lost to me in the finals of the U.S. Open. So most guys aren't going around and hanging around each other. So he always felt like he almost was more important

that he be your friend than sort of beat you, even though he never beat Borg. He barely beat, he made the greatest line ever when he lost, he beat Conor Zena. No one beats Vita Scarolata 17 times in a row which is what he said which has got to be the greatest line ever at Madison Square Garden and with me he won he had a better record but not a good record you know a couple wins but uh it almost seemed like that was so much and I know he was burning with ambition

also but didn't seem quite as much as some of the other guys but that was i felt lucky because i sort of walked into where tennis was sort of exploding the late 70s and into the 80s and i was um a magical time um it was a lot like boxing when boxing has those clusters where like all of a sudden you have haggler and leonard and herns and all these guys and we're in the heavyweights in the 70s with Ali and Frazier and everybody. It's like boxing, you know, boxing right now. It's been, people barely talk about it. And we have the two greatest players that ever lived

playing right now, Nadal and Federer. And we're not getting much exposure. And people- So do you think that's because of longevity they're the greatest players ever or because they're playing at the highest level ever or both? Well, both. But I mean, they obviously have equipment that if we played without equipment, we would have played differently also.

We look like we're in slow motion. What about, like, what kind of sneakers were you wearing? It's like watching the old NFL compared to... What sneakers were you wearing in 79? They couldn't have been that healthy. Yeah. Actually, no. I mean, but these cushions, I'm not convinced of things that have cushions.

We're both wearing like Converse, which is owned by Nike. I believe those are Converse, but they look like them. And those to me are some of the greatest sneakers ever, most comfortable. And that was more or less the equivalent of what we used to play in, just like basketball players used to play in those. And sometimes I like that feeling of being sort of low to the ground and feeling the ground um it when you got in the air you started i twist my ankle more often and got in some trouble even always your body starts to get crickety and older

and you're like oh this is great we got a little cushion but i'm not that's why clay is great well clay is good in in in that way i mean mean, it blows in plenty of other ways. Yeah. Like you can't move on it the way you can move. Like you can't go out and stop and start. Like I look at these basketball guys and I think, God, they're so lucky. I do sort of resent, not resent it, but I wish we had it where we had indoor majors and it would be 70 degrees and perfect.

You know, go get those give and go's or those alley-oops where you're slipping the first step, you slip on the clay. Like they just picture what they're doing, play on clay. Yeah. It wouldn't be quite so simple. It wouldn't look like quite so bad how tough it is to do that. So we put ourselves in tennis in extremely difficult positions to showcase ourselves the best we can, unlike some of the other sports. All right. One more quick break to talk about Spotify. Did you know you could listen to Bill Simmons podcast and others from

the Ringer family on Spotify? Oh yeah, you can. You could be listening to this one right now on Spotify. It's a streaming service, you know, in love for music. It's also fully loaded with podcasts. Find us in the podcast section within the browse tab when you're using Spotify on mobile or just by searching for the Bill Simmons podcast, which is this one. While you're there, click to follow us to have our new episodes delivered

right into your Spotify library. Head to Spotify.com slash podcast for more of that. Spotify.com slash podcast. Since we're here, I want to talk about two of our newest podcasts. House of Carbs hosted by Joe House. Food. A celebration of that, spotify.com slash podcast. Since we're here, I want to talk about two of our newest podcasts. House of Carbs, hosted by Joe House. Food, a celebration of food, eating, the love of food. I think everything you want to know about this podcast is in the first episode.

House talking to Bon Appetit's Adam Rappaport, who mentions his ideas for how to make caprese salad a little better. And as he says caprese salad, House goes, oh, and just lets out this great groan. And it's all authentic. The guy loves eating. He loves food. He loves talking about food. That's what the podcast is.

It goes in a bunch of different directions. I highly recommend it. And it's not as artsy-fartsy as some of these food podcasts. You're going to get a breakdown of whether it's okay to put barbecue sauce on a cheeseburger and things like that. It is for the food lovers, the food connoisseurs, and people who just like eating food. In the first one, they actually, Juliet and him, talk about this new Sonic burger that has a lot of mushrooms in it, and they break that down. But that's the kind of stuff we're going to get in this one, so that's good. And then against all odds with Cousin Sal, even though it's the off season, no football, they've really stepped up their games and had a

five minute breakdown of who would win a fight between Mr. Miyagi and John Rambo. That is among my favorite five minutes we've ever had on a podcast. Amazingly, three of them took Miyagi as an underdog and laid out reasons why and treated it very seriously. Good stuff all the way around. But listen to those two. If you love gaming, you love food, I would recommend Against All Odds. And I would recommend House of Carbs. And you can listen to those on Spotify to bring it full circle. All right, back to the one, the only, John McEnroe. I didn't want to throw a bunch of tennis. I want to go back to the 80s in a second, but I just didn't want to forget this idea.

I think there should be a doubles major. A doubles major. I think part of the problem with sports just in general is that we just get stuck on the way we did it 40 years ago and we never tried to innovate and go. I think the NBA schedule is a good example of that, right? Why is it 82 games? Because they decided in 1970 it was 82 games.

It doesn't mean it should be 82 games now. It should probably be like 70, but like with, with tennis, I really like doubles. I think it's fascinating. You were probably the best of all time at it. You were just great at it. And, um, it was fun watching you play doubles. I think it'd be fun watching other people play doubles and at the majors, it's an afterthought. And it's this thing you also do. And should he keep that? Oh, yeah, I'm going to play doubles.

And Serena, it's like in her spare time, she's winning the doubles title. I would like to see an actual doubles major that would almost be like how we're doing with this Olympics three and three basketball thing, which will be a disaster the first year. But then by 2028, I think it'll actually be pretty cool once they actually win. That's in the Olympics? It's in the Olympics, yeah. But with tennis, though. But you can play half the court. I could maybe still come back. If they had two weeks and it was like, here's the tennis.

It's going to be doubles. We're going to put it in this awesome location. There's a lot of prize money at stake. It's not going to happen. You don't think that works? Never. I'm not saying, I don't use the word never very often because I think that once you say it, it's, you know, you're proving that.

Then you're opening the door. Well, not only that, it's just very rarely is it, you know, my kids never, you never, you always do that. No, neither one of those. Okay. So I, I think doubles is on life support. You you know i watch it now and i'm like are you kidding well so let's talk about that how do you improve doubles and make it so that it's something because i think that's probably the brian complaining right now uh hey uh why you bad mouthing doubles i'm the guy that loved doubles and somehow i'm the bad guy for doubles but you're the reason why i i'm not going to give up on this idea yet, because not only is doubles fun to watch if it's done correctly,

but the camaraderie of it is what I like. And that's what tennis is missing. Tennis is so individual, you versus me. I actually like the thought of, like, I like when the Williams sisters play doubles together. I like it also. I just don't think that it's visually at this point, the way they play it. It's just sort of wham, bam, thank you, man, swinging for the fences.

People out there playing like they're on the singles court. The strategy of it's changed. So what was it when you were doing it? What was the strategy? Well, I mean, there would be more of a sort of a build. You know, you chip to the guy, hit a low return. He builds up. Maybe a guy poaches.

Maybe he doesn't. Now they just swing as hard as they can at everything. You know, ended on the serve and to just go for a winner on the return every rally is sort of guys standing in from the neck because generally they don't know how to volley so the way to counteract that is stand very close to the net and just start moving one way yeah the other guy stands back it's like chickens with their heads cut off all right i'm giving up no no you ruined it i don't want it now no no forget it i'm out what if we use wooden rackets wooden rackets i think the cat's out of the bag on that one all right so doubles is dead doubles is what they should do which they let them since people like yourself like doubles and i don't dislike doubles i just i liked i liked doubles

i find it to be distracting to what we need to do to take the game to another level i would eliminate the like people that don't know the sport of tennis they come on and there's two people playing singles and they have the doubles allies which aren't used why the hell are they even there yeah why not just have the court they actually use for god's sakes and maybe put people like vips or people around the court closer which we used to do at the open like family and friends but you know jack nicholson would come and he'd have this seat and that's inspiring just like it was for the lakers in the 80s or whoever it is this is when these you know guys come in this is a great idea so you're saying you have the you have the umpire on one side and the players.

You have the ball boys, umpires, obviously the spectators can't sit there. Well, you don't need umpires either in tennis, which is the one sport that would be, if you really want to make the game exciting and really bring back trash talking, you eliminate the umpires. Or the self-call. You have to have players call their own things. The players call, but you have a challenge. So you could challenge them and people are like, oh, you cheated.

You know, McEnroe, you did it again. And it would bring this whole element. It will never happen. It will never happen. So, oh, I shouldn't have said never. So my wife plays a ton of tennis and they, you know, they call their own stuff. And like once every three weeks she comes back like, ah, slated today. I ended up getting kind of in a fight in this whole story.

And there's bad blood after. And you're right. It would be fantastic if that was the Australian Open finals. Federer and Nadal are coming to blows. It would be amazing. It would be amazing. You could have the challenges, right? You could have challenges that would allow you to go back and challenge what you thought

the guy was cheating you. And you could convince yourself that the guy was cheating you yeah uh even if it wasn't true and then that would even add an added element of interest to when they call for the challenge and you wait for the replay because let's be honest people cheat in tennis and we know who they are uh there's some people who just can't help themselves you know people are always you know i would throw myself into this category where you sort of take the rules you know where you can take them they they use bathroom breaks as sort of ways to break momentum now you know they don't have to go to the bathroom they'll tell you they did and you can't prove that they didn't right a lot of diarrhea and tennis stuff a lot of stuff going on

a lot of injuries that were not you know they make it up as they go along you know and you can get away with that and from a sort of uh the spectacle of it as a commentator i look at i sort of sometimes i'm entertained i'm like here this is taking this girl who i used to play team tennis with one of the chinese girls she looked like she was gonna have a heart attack it was so hot and she fell over yeah they put her back'd stopped the match for 10 minutes. I mean, there must be rules that you can't do that. After 10 minutes, she's getting looked at the doctor. She comes back on the court.

She looks like, you know, she's going to drop dead. And you're thinking, what is going on here? Don't let her, don't put her back on this tennis court, whatever you do. And she was out and played a little. And you're thinking, what? I mean, but from the standpoint of there's drama real drama it was sort of you know if you see someone cramping usually you've broken that person down and that and that should matter that should matter and

that's what you try to do is break them down mentally or physically that's the whole point in the nba if lebron got cramps they wouldn't be like we have stopped the game for 10 minutes as lebron deals with his cramps he would just have to leave the game. Or they'd have to figure something out, like put the air conditioning on. Like when it was in San Antonio, I did the studio for that guy. One day it was 89 or whatever you're thinking. I'm sorry. It wasn't 70. Not that LeBron is not the most amazing athlete, but it is lucky when you have that sort of set thing. Yeah. It's a pretty nice thing. Wait a second.

Let's go back to the no umpire thing. Okay. So we get rid of umpires. Right. Players call their own things. So around the court- The linesmen you get rid of. You keep an umpire to call the score.

So that, I'm screwing up the linesman or something. Yeah, the guy in the chair. The linesman, all the other guys are out. So he stays. Yeah, he stays. Or she, whoever it is. Players on the right or left. Maybe a couple courtside seats.

Yeah. Down there either way. Maybe get like three and three, four and four. Or you can get a, go look at the old seating arrangement at the open in the 80s. And you'll see that it's very cool. Other side, you could put people all down the line there. Are you kidding? It'd be like floor seats, you know.

Yeah. Listen, they didn't have floor seats until the 80s i mean i remember when i was my ex-wife but my with my first son was being born and i think the lakers were the first team that i can recall is 86 my son was born it was unbelievable i'm like it's showtime with kareem and magic and worthy and these guys i mean they're just showing a 30 by 30 now. This thing, I'm sitting here watching and go, this is too good to be true. Then I had a chance to do that. The Triple OT game the Celtics and Suns played like 40 years ago, 1976. If you watch that game, there's really no courtsides and there's just nothing behind the basket.

They didn't even put seats there. It's just like 28 feet of space. Oh, really? And it's like, wow, what were they thinking back then? Exactly. They could have put all those. And then they have no offense because you're sort of a reporter, but they'd have these. Sort of.

Wow, okay. I barely. But they put like these on the floor seats. At the garden, they do that. Yeah. You're like, wow, man. They get floor seats after they just roast us or, you know. They've pretty much stopped doing that with the press. Just bury us. Yeah. They stick them in the corners now. You're like, wow, man, they get floor seats after they just roast us or, you know, and.

They've pretty much stopped doing that with the press. They stick them in the corners now. You see that seat up on the top? Right. Let me know how that is. Court sides. So why wouldn't U.S. Open do this? They did do it.

They should do it either way because the U.S. Open court is big. Yeah. Arthur S. Stadium is a very big court. So there is room for that either way. I think they should do it.S. Open court is big. Arthur S. Stadium is a very big court. So there is room for that either way. I think they should do it, absolutely. And I think there should be a way, especially at the big events, where you could have it where maybe visually for tennis it's better if you don't have those other lines. Maybe.

I don't think we've experimented enough is the point. Yeah, I agree with you. You mentioned wood rackets. If you look at baseball, these guys, when they're young, they use graphite or whatever materials used. And then when you make it, when and if you ever make it to the pros, or not the pros, even the minors still use it, then you go to wood bats.

And that, to me, is what they should have done in tennis. But now it's too late. The game is so much faster. And just in terms of the economics of it, I don't think it could happen. But it would be interesting to see roger federer my frame was a 78 square inches of wood racket that he's using a 98 square inch frame that's that's quite a big bit bigger sweet spot it allows you to swing harder make contact easier these guys haven't made they don't have it tough like us in the old days cushy shoes they think and they're like oh they're

amazing athletes and they're saying we're total bums i like you old farts couldn't you know move at all but you know borg was the fastest guy ever saw on a tennis court to this day no one i've ever seen is faster than him i think your generation would have been okay with the advantages that i mean i think it would have been interesting to the idea of it's the fun part. He's thinking what I would have done. And it was also about getting in someone's head. It wasn't like Connors was coming on the court with me and saying, hey, how you doing? He wasn't exactly real friendly.

And I wasn't real friendly to Yvonne Lendl. And I mean, with Borgen, how we got along. But for the most part, you're sort of battling and you're trying to get up some sort of anger and sort of hate, not, well, bordering on hatred. Well, Lendo was like a robot. I don't even know how you were trying to get in his head. He was like barely a human.

Yeah, he really was. Like from Rocky IV or something. He was unbelievable. So that was quite a tall order. If I could get him pissed, I knew I'd accomplish something. I do. I'm a little suspicious how these guys are able to play five and a half hour matches and stuff.

It just doesn't seem. Well, I'm suspicious of, this isn't the only sport we should be suspicious of. Just let's throw that down. As these guys know, I'm suspicious of everybody. It's amazing that certainly they know more than they've ever known. And they certainly have better ways to sort of recover and what you put into it. I mean, Milos Raonic, who I worked with last year

and still want to help him, he's got these booklets, the detailed booklets of, depending on how long he plays, what exactly the meal he should put in afterwards. I'm like, Milos, it's not about that. Yeah. It's about, you got some fucking cojones, man. Right. You know, and he gets that in a way, but he's, you know, he's so,

and I don't know what to what level and to what level that matters. And you wonder like, how the hell do these people do this sometimes? It's beyond belief. I mean, I played two six hour matches in my life. I felt like I was needed to get a wheelchair when I walked off the court. Well, probably you before the match, you're probably having a cheeseburger and fries.

No, I wasn't that bad. You know, Borg had this, he had two hours before, which I already found difficult, but he'd have a steak, a baked potato and a vegetable every meal,

dinner meal for every match he ever played. Never wants you to get tired in a match and he never was maybe that's why he retired he had high cholesterol maybe he had a heart attack uh when i when i spent time with you in 2015 the two things i remember more than anything one is that you brought up that 84 french open lost to lendl and you were going through it point by point, like 31 years later, like here's where I turn. And then this happened. And like you, it was like, it was on an ESPN classic and you were narrating it only. It wasn't on an ESPN classic. You were tortured by it.

Yeah. Well, I actually start this book. Yeah. That's what I, that's why I brought it up. Cause you said earlier you started the book. Well, because it really, uh, it's something that i have to deal with and um that's crazy that you have to deal with that yeah so the thing that bothers you you could add the grand slam right well i just i just i well i could have had it because i would have gone to australia then but i also just feel like uh beating myself yeah you know it's tough when you beat yourself and it's tough the way it all happened but it's also tough because paris is arguably the most beautiful city in the world

and there's anyone my wife or i'm sure any woman alive and most guys with hey let's go to paris it's every building you look at it's just an extraordinary spectacle and i've been doing commentary for the past 25 years so i go it, it's nice. You get to go to the friend and the majors basically is what I do, which is great. But it's the scene of the crime. Exactly. So I just can't help. And then my good friends always seem to bring it up after a couple drinks. Hey, John, what happened? Are you kidding me? You're going to ask me about this now again. Did you ever pull a major out of your ass though? I mean, maybe there was the bizarre equivalent of it, that when you shouldn't have won, that you won.

Well, it's probably not to that degree, no. No, no. I actually blew a couple more than I would say I was able to steal one. I mean, I had a couple moments. I wasn't matched. Which one do you think you borderline stole? Well, I think the year that I'm in 80, which is my probably best year, I beat Landon on the quarters in the, at the open.

And the next day I had to play a five set doubles match in the finals. And then this is Friday. So that was, it should have been a day off. Then Saturday I played Connors in the semis and I beat him seven, six in the fifth where I was down. Yeah. I remember that one. That could have gone either way.

And I was down in the fourth after being down two sets to one and i came back and then the next day because there was no day off i had to play borg after i'd lost him into that 80 wimbledon final which is the most famous one i was ever part of and i was two sets up and i was then i got to a fifth set like i was like oh my god i'm gonna blow it again so that was probably my proudest moment that i pulled that those three off in a row and beat those guys and showed that i could people like oh god you know something you look fitter now than you did when you played i'm like no yeah here's my track record because a lot of it's mental and and it's not even close physically even though i take pride that i'm still in shape or whatever, but this is not even comparable.

I'm proud to say I watched the 81 with the match life. I'm sure you get that a lot. You and 100,000 other people. Yeah, I know. It's amazing. It's a 13,000 seat stadium. You're probably about, and I hope you are one of them, but one of the 100,000 people that have literally come to me and said, I was there when you played.

I'm like, how the hell? No, I wasn't there, but I watched it. I watched all your stuff back then no but that was uh to me it was like the fist calm run in the 75 world series where we lost the world series but we had the fist calm run and you you lost the match but you won the fourth set it was basically the same uh. Yeah, it was amazing. That's obviously one of the few matches, most obvious one, where I knew something was special while it was going on. It was just this intensity and energy that was amazing. I didn't want to ask you about it because it's probably the question you get the most asked, but we had to at least gloss over it.

It is because it's certainly a match I'm most proud of. Well, it's the greatest match of all time. I didn't write about it much in the second book because I'd certainly written about it in the first one, but it's not that I'm not proud of it. I am. It's not that I'm not, you know, to say that you're part of like one of the best matches in the sports history is great. Most people don't remember I lost.

You know, they think like, oh, yeah, that was great. That's why it's like the fist comer. People don't even remember the Red Sox lost the World Series. So that's also good. I don't bother to tell them that I dumped the fifth set. But at the same time, it's a long time ago. So to me, it's got its own folklore. It's not like I want to go watch it again and say,

oh, that tiebreaker was amazing. Well, it's good because you have the documentary now. So it's got the snapshot now that it's just going to live on. Well, I had the documentary from a few years ago. Then I had this movie that's coming out that I've had nothing to do with. The Shia LaBeouf is starting now. I was afraid to ask you about that. Are we okay with this movie? I'm afraid to talk about it. Shia LaBeouf is starring in it. I was afraid to ask you about that. Are we okay with this movie?

I'm afraid to talk about it. Okay. I hope it's good. Okay. I mean, I don't want a movie about me and Bjorn, and I'm pretty sure it's about this match in 1980. I don't know what it is. How are they going to handle the left-handed thing?

Apparently, they did something where somehow they reversed the sort of, the way they film it or something. I'm out. I'm out too. Yeah. I don't know how they do it. That sounds horrible. No, well, they make him, he plays,

because he's righty, they make it where he's lefty. I don't know how they do that. That's beyond me. Tennis movies have always been just doomed. I'm more concerned about the size of his legs. When I saw him, I'm like, wait a minute, I did have some pretty strong legs, and those look a little spindly.

But he supposedly, I know he's crazy which may be good for this particular role but he's also supposedly a good actor i haven't seen a lot of his work and i never actually have spoken to him yet and um this all sounds terrible and i haven't seen sounds good i didn't see i kept saying to these people because they want me to sort of get involved and promote and i And I'm like, look, well, first I want to see it. Because I want to see if this is a disaster that the other tennis movies have been. A couple of which I was in.

Yeah. So I don't want to be- Which ones were you in? Wimbledon. I was a commentator. A lot of close, tight shots of Kirsten Dunst over the wide shot of whether she could hit a tennis ball or not. And then they said like, you really got to express it.

And it was like, unbelievable shot. But I go, that's not, I think they really prefer what I sound like. Yeah. And that's good enough. No, no, let's really ham it up. Yeah. Incredible. So I just like this, I go, oh my God, I am so bad.

I was like my worst, one of my worst roles, feature roles. I'm trying to think, what are the other tennis movies? Spring Break with Carling Bassett? I missed that one. Yeah, you were still playing when that happened. It was actually, it was called Players in 1979. It was Dean Martin Jr. Yes.

Ali McGraw, Maximilian Schell, Steve Guttenberg. I mean, a pretty good cast. All copies have been destroyed. That's a good thing. Yeah. That would be, including my, again, my cameo was pretty abysmal, even though Bob Evans directed it. Bob Evans. He was the producer of the movie.

Kid that stays in the picture. Yeah. You probably spent some time at Bob Evans' house in the 80s. Not too much. I was more than my ex-father-in-law. Yeah, but by that time, Ryan was up at Farrah Fawcett, so I didn'ts not too much i was more than my ex-father-in-law yeah but you know by that time ryan was up at farrow faucet so i didn't see him too much which probably as as we all know not been the worst probably probably a good thing uh so then bore when did borg leave after the 80

open 81 81 open he just walked out and uh that was it kind of kicked his ass i felt like that was one of the reasons it was a mild ass kick you know you you could say that uh things could change uh in a year you never know like someone gets injured or things happen you have people have life things kids who knows you know the complicated things there's no reason at 20 he was only 25 now if you think federer that'd be a scandal now if that happened if somebody just retires at age 25 he was only 25. Now, if you think Federer at 35. That'd be a scandal now if that happened. Yeah. Well. If somebody just retires at age 25. It was a scandal then. Yeah. To me, it was a shame. I mean, he was my best rival and he walked away. I was like, look, I'd rather lose some more to him because I think the game was getting so exciting. You've been, I mean, you've talked about this before, but just, it was, you had a loss after that happened. Just, you never were able to fully

replace him. I think i did a couple years later i had the best year but for a couple years i was sort of floundering in a way i mean i was still doing well and um finished the year number one a couple times but they weren't my best years those two and it was sort of it was disappointing it was hard to handle all the attention sort of was placed on me and so that took a a lot. I just, I don't know if I was prepared for that. I really didn't anticipate that he would do that. None of us did. We were all completely shocked. I remember when he first told Vetus and I that he was going to quit. We thought he was kidding. We just thought he was BSing us. And then he said, I'm not playing anymore. I'm quitting.

And we were like, yeah, yeah, right. Sort of like that. And then we went to this press conference. This is in Australia when he first told us and they said, well, how do you feel about next year? It was one of the first questions. I'm very excited about next year. I can't wait. And we're like, what the hell? Because he said the complete opposite to us. So needless to say, we were confused, but they also did some asadine things like our association. And I'm not going to bore your listeners with the details, but it got ugly where it was just in a way he was forced out. And this is like if you force LeBron James out because, you know, he's too he's got his muscles are too strong. So, you know, you're not allowed to play again until you lose some of that muscle mass.

You know, because it's it's not fair to the other players. You know, it was almost as if they said to him, unless you do certain things and sign certain forms, you're going to have to go play the qualifying, which would be put, you know, put the guy in the Vegas summer league or something. You're like, what? This is our greatest player, you know, ever biggest player we've had. And you're going to treat him like what? So tennis is really screwed up in that way. I think how you've described with the void not having Borg there, it always made me wonder like with Jordan after he won the first three

and he just didn't have a rival, right? He's just looking for a rival, looking for a rival. Magic leaves. He kills Clyde Drexler. The next year he beats Barkley there's really nobody on the horizon and you know there's been a million theories why he retired that first time but I always felt like that was part of it whereas you look at somebody like LeBron and from the moment he showed up in the league he had these carrots being waved in front of him

you know he had to beat the Pistons then he had to to beat KG in the Celtics. What about the Knicks? He never was really worried about the Knicks. He didn't even mention Ewing. He had to overcome the Knicks. The Spurs. Now he's got the Warriors. And it's just all these carrots. I'm talking about Jordan.

Yeah, well. Come on. But I think that's important. It'd be great as you need that carrot kind of day. I mean, that's what was so great when you see Larry and Magic. Exactly. It's the greatest. And so Jordan came along and he was in a way,

I'm not comparing myself to Michael Jordan, but I tried to- I wouldn't be against it. I would sort of get to it. I was one of your biggest fans, so I would support it. Thank you. But no, but just in terms of following like Conor's Borg. Oh, yeah. And then you try to get in that mix and get respected.

And Jordan eventually did that. He's become the greatest player ever, him and whoever you want to ask. But even then, you still have this thing about Magic and Larry in a way that elevates them now even to another thing. Wow, isn't it great they got it together? And I had this thing with Bjorn where I sort of maybe bypassed what was going on with him and Connors and become like the equivalent of Magic and Larry

and then lost that, which was a bummer. Well, you also had a great stylist. Because it wasn't the same with Lendl. No offense, even though Lendl was arguably, could be better. Some people could say he was a better player. No. But I wouldn't.

But nonetheless, there was a void. Mats Wielander was a great champion, but i wouldn't but but uh but nonetheless there was a void you know matt's v lander was a great champion but he wasn't beyond board yeah so what is that thing what are they the the board that people hit the tennis balls against some blackboard is that what it's called the backboard the wall or the wall whatever that was lindell that's that was his style supposedly it just felt like it was just like hitting. There was no personality. There was no charisma to it. I didn't feel like there was an artistic anything to it. It's still the same.

He's just like a tennis robot. You should see him coach. He's like that too. Yeah. The Federer and Nadal and the fact that that's still going. Do you think they have that for each other? Do you think they measure? Because Federer is such a nice guy.

I wonder if he measures anybody against himself. I don't know what I think he, in terms of. Do you think he wakes up going, I got to beat Nadal? I want to be the champion of this. He knows that Nadal's made him a better player and vice versa, which is important. Yeah, he's probably grateful for him, right? He is. Exactly. He knows that Nadal's made him a better player and vice versa, which is important. Yeah, he's probably grateful for him, right?

Yeah, he is. Exactly. That's like he appreciates the fact that people used to hit to his backhand, so therefore his backhand could get better. Yeah. You're like, how does he turn lemons into lemonade? He does an incredible job of that. So that's the way Roger is. Nadal, you can see he torturesures himself even though he's an amazing athlete obviously

but he's so ocd and he's touching everything and he's got to move and you know and roger's sort of cruising around and he's got you know touching every part of his body every point he'd drive anyone crazy yeah you almost hope he'll lose a little so he doesn't have to do this you know the poor guy i don't know what he's gonna do when when he's retired, man. He'll be like an Evian dealer. Working at Starbucks, just making coffees. So it's not easy being out there. I had my own things, so I'm not sitting here saying that it's easy. And in certain ways, it's great. But Federer, he loves everything about it.

I would more towards say, hey, I want it. You'd certainly measure yourself up at the people around you, whether it's Connors, Borg, Glendal, whoever. Then along came Sampras and Becker. And I'm like, oh, my God, these guys are much bigger. They're hitting it a lot harder. I've lost like a third or half a step. And this is bad situation because they're just coming out

and just swinging for the, you know, they're serving bigger than anyone I've ever seen in my life. Nothing had ever come close to what I saw with Becker and Sampras. Any server. I played Becker at 18 in an exhibition in Atlanta at the Old Omni, I believe. It was like, great crowd. And I'm thinking to myself, this guy's got the biggest serve in the history of tennis. And he's 18.

And not only, you know, he'd be diving and, you know, it's not like, you know, you get the ball back, you've won the point. You still have to deal with, you know, he's got a great forehand or he's willing to dive for volleys, all this other stuff, which was real exciting at the time.

I loved watching Boris. I hated playing him. Becker to me is like almost like a Penny Hardaway type in tennis history. I'd say way better than that. Well, Penny Hardaway was top five all-NBA during a really good year. I'm just trying to think of some basketball.

One or two years. So how many years was Becker at the top? He only was number one very briefly, but he won six majors. Oh, that's better than Penny Hardaway. I don't know. He's along the lines of, it would have to be someone like,

I wasn't going to say Tim Duncan, but it's going to be someone- Somebody who won a title and then got hurt. Someone who won more than one title, like numerous titles, a power forward type guy, like Elgin. I don't know how many Elgin Baylor,

that's too far back, but not Scotty Pippen. He's a little- I'm trying to think like because he never gets mentioned at all anymore carl malone type guy but uh carl malone didn't win anything right you know charles barkley he always talk about because i did a couple of things with uh bob casas i think we did on your on the record or i think that's what it's called and sometimes because i'd be on the panel with him and Chris Collinsworth,

and I'd think, well, these guys obviously are great at what they, you know, in their own way, they're great commentators, but they'd be sitting there telling everyone what they, you know, how to do this or what you need to do. And I'm thinking, did they ever win any? As far as I know, they never won. Either one of them won one. But that shouldn't be because they look,

ah, you're some wimpy tennis player or whatever but it to me it was sort of you have to be a little bit careful even if you know obviously in football you got a lot of other people and even in basketball i mean to me barkley got conned by jordan totally like that year like let's go play golf and uh you know buddy and then he fell for it and he should be sitting there that's what that's his version of paris you know to me yeah he fell for it and he should be sitting there that's what that's his version of paris you know to me yeah would be he's got to live with that the rest of his life because i think he could have won it but he just was too busy wanting to be you know michael's buddy it started with the dream team before so it appeared i mean i don't know no it

started the dream team charles to me is obviously really good at what he does, and he's turned out to be a lovable guy. And he was a great basketball player, but he got burned the way I got burned. Yeah. Is the way I look at it. So what helped back Becker, just out of curiosity? Why was he one of the top six players ever? Becker's going to be one of the top 10 or 15. His body didn't hold up too long.

And he's a tremendous player. He got to seven Wimbledon finals. He won three of them. So wait a second. It sounds like we're talking about Shaq then. Maybe Shaq. Because Shaq was like the 12th best player ever and probably should have been like the fifth.

Yeah, that could be about right. Yeah. Unbelievable athletes. Because he's very big. He was extremely unusual for a uh uh tennis player that build you know he looked like he'd be sort of a you know he stood up real straight with the posture and intimidating six three which for tennis at that time would be the equivalent of about i don't know about seven feet or seven one but you know six eight in basketball yeah is

he the greatest athlete who's ever been a good tennis player? Who? Becker. He's got to be up there. He's not the greatest athlete. He isn't the greatest athlete, actually. Who do you think it is? The greatest athlete I was... Who was ever good? Borg, to me, was

the fastest. And then Djokovic is sort of the most sort of Gumby-like and, you know, ability to play sort of like in crazy positions. Yeah. And Rodgers is the most beautiful player I've ever seen play. And Nadal is an amazing specimen. Yeah.

Those are the guys I'd put like up there at the very top. And Landau became a machine, but he's not at their level. Yeah. I don't think, but, you know, that's a pretty high level. So even though you get this question all the time too, just for my listeners. So you think Sampras is the greatest ever on grass? Yeah. I think Sampras, they would, these players now, they scoff at me and they say, oh, they return to serve too easily. I don't buy it. Again, the grass is different than when he played.

It's easier. It's a truer bounce, which I think all of us would have preferred. Yeah. Why not? We were taught shorter backswings and take the ball in the air because there was a lot of bad bounces. Now there's a lot better so that people can afford to stay back. Although I think they stay back way too much. But Pete, to me, was the greatest fast court player. Rod Laver was my idol. So I put him up there. And then I put, well, two years ago, before Nadal started having a lot of injuries, I thought Nadal's overall record was better than Rodgers. I was going to give him a slight edge over Rodger. Now I've shifted back to consistency-wise and overall record, Rodgers is better. And he's recently beaten Rafa three times

in a row. If he had lost that Australian match, you could have swung back at 3-1 in the fifth when Nadal was going to pull that out of his rear end and win that thing. You would have said, because that was the fastest court I've ever seen an Australian Open played on, which is not normally Nadal's best service. And he was handling, he beat Milos in the quarters.

He had that five-hour match with Dimitrov, who's trying to make a name for himself, can't get over the hump. Then he's got 3-1 against Federer. So those are the four guys I put one, two, three, four. And then I probably put- But you were the one who said, I thought you had to say by the surface though, right? By surface, yeah. Like slower court, I put Nadal. And then like a hard court, I put Djokovic. And overall, I put Roger because he can play in all of them. Right. So for year round, you'd go Roger.

Now, what if he was like in my basketball book, I did this whole thing about the wine bottle team where I put together the greatest, the greatest team, but you had to use the actual year. You can't just be like, I've picked LeBron James. It'd be like, all right, what year LeBron James? You give me 2013 LeBron James or, and and same thing magic's a really good example because it's like do you want 87 i score more magic or do you want 85 i'm just completely selfless on the point guard magic um that's a tough call so who would you what what wine bottle tennis player would you pick

if you had to go through one season all four tournaments uh jokovic when he won you know the last he was holding all four at once and yeah you know this pastokovic when he won you know the last he was holding all four at once and yeah you know this past French I mean when he won the French last year he had all four now he's got none so he's like become somewhat of a shell at what he was a year ago which is almost as surprising as him winning all four at the same time because that hadn't been done for 37 years and then he's then he fell off a cliff. Well, he's had some, I don't know exactly, but some off-court stuff that's complicated things. And then I think Roger, 2005, won three of the four. And he was in the finals of the French, the one he lost.

Conor's 74, won all three. They didn't let him play the French. Yeah, screw Conor. No, I'm not giving Conor's time on this. We don't want to give Conor's that same list. Forget that guy. Then we got Nadal. What was your wine bottle year?

Mine would have been the 84 when I won the Wimbledon in the US and I was in the match I lost to the French. Then I would have won all three and then gone to... I didn't play the Australian that year. I pulled out and I didn't play only in the beginning very much. So that would have been... I won... I was like 82 and three or something that year.

And I believe I should have been, you know, 83 and two. And then I could, or even better. And I would have gone to Australia and try to win the Grand Slam, but then it's just screwed it up. That would be for me. And then I'm trying to think of Nadal's. I mean, he's so, it's hard to say with him.

Probably five five six years ago when he won the Wimbledon he thread the year the 2008 Wimbledon final was the best match I'd ever seen and that year he won the French and I can't remember what he did at the open but I'd pick him that year because that was an amazing man he beat Federer 9-7 in the fifth and Serena is still the best tennis player of all time if you're measuring her versus whoever the second person she was going at this right the gap between her and number two is much bigger than any men's tennis i don't know i mean not on clay you know i think like steffi on clay or hen and justine ennin would would cause some serious problems

but anything like on a quicker court, I think she's the best and she could, could win on the clay too. I mean, she's just an amazing athlete. And, um, but even more so, cause she obviously is an amazing athlete, but, uh, her will. Yeah. She's come back from more matches where she's match point down than any player I've ever seen, you know, and won the tournament or won that match. And that's not easy to do. I didn't do that that much. And so, and she's had a, you know, had it a lot, you know, 10 times or 50 times or however many times more difficult than someone like myself, being a black girl in a white man's game, basically. So the fact that she's overcome that and been able to be as successful as it says a lot about her. I mean, one is that she's overcome that and been able to be as successful is, it says a lot about her. I mean,

one is that she's so much better than everyone, but also that she's been able to persevere. Her sister was killed and about 10, 15 years ago. So that, and she had a life threatening ill, you know, she's had a lot of stuff. Who's the best under 27 tennis player right now in male or female? Under 27. Um, let's see. Do we have a future A-lister in the mix? There's like the Zverev, this 20-year-old German guy. He's going to be big time. Okay. He's going to win majors.

Is that a Wimbledon sleeper pick? No, I don't think he's ready yet, but I wouldn't put it past him in the right set of situations. He was in like the semis. That's what always happens in wimbledon though somebody the year we don't think they're ready yet that's the year they break through right uh they probably said that about you when's the last time that someone you know maybe leighton hewitt in 2002 but you know if you think about the guys you know fetter is one seven the doll's one two joker is one two Nadal's won two. Djokovic has won two. Murray's won two. I'm trying to think of who the other person is. But, you know, Krychek in 96 came.

You know, even he wasn't out of nowhere. You know, he was like the third best grass court player. It's very hard to be out of nowhere now. The reason I work with Milos, besides I like him, you know, he's a good kid and he's extremely serious and wants to make himself better, is that he was one of the few guys I thought that could win Wimbledon. You know, there's only like six guys to me that could win it. It's a small group. There's other guys that could make a run and cause problems, but they're not going to win it. So who are the six? The six would be Roger, Rafa, Nadal. I mean, I said Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Milos. I would throw in Kyrgios, you know, although I'm not, I don't think mentally, you know, he's gets me more. I mean, he's a talent

that could do it. I would vote for him more to start an international incident at Wimbledon. That's true. Winning Wimbledon. It's a shame, you know, cause we really need him and he's, he got, he's just, but you know, Del Pocho need him and he's, he got, uh, he's just, but you know, Del Pocho is, I like him a lot. I'm hoping he's going to have a good sort of couple of years. Cause he's had a lot of injury problems, but like, I look at Vavrenka, who's won three majors, the same as Murray. I don't, I don't even know he's like a tremendous player and turned out to be, you know, first round hall of famer. I don't think he could win Wimbledon. All right, I left some stuff on the bone for the next time you pass through town.

Beautiful. I left, there's some scoring ideas I have. I have some ideas. There's other stuff I want to talk about in the 80s, but we'll save it for the next time. But really serious, when maybe the really seriously book comes out. But I think this is but seriously.

No, no, I think the book hopefully will be something that will be looked at favorably. And hopefully people get an interest out of it. It's more like my last 15 years because I did this other book. So I'm hopeful that people have some fun with it and hopefully see that I'm having some fun with myself and that I've learned a little bit over the years. I mean, Lord knows I'm 58 for God's sake. I better learn something, right?

Bill, thanks for having me. John McEnroe. Thank you. All right. That's it for this week for the BS podcast. Thank you so much to Spotify. Remember you can listen to Bill Simmons podcast and others from the ringer

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Take a break. Game of Thrones coming up, NFL coming up. Good times. See you next week.