The Bill Simmons Podcast - Jokic vs. Walton, Tatum Advice, Ja’s Leap and NBA 75 Regrets With Bob Ryan and Justin Termine

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Bob Ryan to discuss the NBA 75th Anniversary Team. They discuss their differing opinions in who was snubbed and the cutoff for eligibility of young players, and then get into some obligatory Boston sports talk (2:15). Then Bill talks with Justin Termine of 'NBA Today' on SiriusXM about the surprisingly exciting Cavaliers, competitive Warriors, Ja Morant's third-year leap, concerns around Zion Williamson, the Thunder's ongoing rebuild, and more (58:20) Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Bob Ryan and Justin Termine Producer: Kyle Crichton  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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which I really enjoyed. It was great having everybody back. What's going on with Larry? Is this going to be a whole season about getting old? Joe and I broke all of it down. I don't think anyone loves Caribbean enthusiasm more than me with the possible exception of Joe House. So you can check that out. Coming up on this podcast, the great Bob Ryan, the commish. He had to come on. We had to talk about this NBA 75 stuff, really deep dive how hard some of these choices were and then that dove into a whole bunch of subplots

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No football on this one. Basketball only. It's all coming up first. Pearl Jam. All right. So we had a lot of NBA 75 stuff the last few weeks. And the person who's valid, I cared about the most is the commish, Bob Ryan, longtime Boston Globe columnist. We've seen him on ESPN on all these other platforms, big influence on me over the course of my career. And more importantly, unlike me actually saw some of these guys from the sixties and seventies,

like my, my cutoffs, like I remember Dan Issel, but I remember like NBA Dan Issel and he would walk by me and he would be missing teeth and he looked like a vampire. You know, I remember, I remember later Walt Frazier, Norman Rose, stuff like that. You, you saw everybody from early sixties on and you were like, for the most part, pretty happy with how the list turned out because we had to, we had probably a hundred guys for 75 spots. So ultimately you were,

it seemed like you were at peace because you wrote about it on Sunday. You were kind of at peace with where the list landed. Yeah, you're never 100% happy and nobody could ever be. I mean, it's opinion in the end. It's opinion, even if your opinion is Larry Bird's or your opinion is whoever. It doesn't matter. It's an opinion. I was pleasantly surprised, Bill, that eight members of the original silver anniversary team of 1971 survived. I never would have expected that. It tells me the voting body was more open, you know, to the historical feel and the understanding of what this thing is really all about or what I would like to think it's all about. You know, could George Mikan play today kind of thing? Of course he'd be a backup center at best. I understand that.

Okay? No, but the point is George Mikan and Bob Cousy are the two most familiar basketball names to the average American in the first 60 years of the 20th century. And they both were vitally important people in the early days of the NBA and need to be,

absolutely have to be on any exclusive list of that nature. But my hardest thing, I don't mind the hardest, but one of my things was trying to make sure that I was fair to the current crop, as fair as I could be and not be tabbed as somebody that was only, you know, the old fart voter voting for the old guys. And so my final selection

was Damian Lillard. And I know that, I guess that's not really a popular one with some people, but I couldn't get away from his numbers, Bill. And that was just an example. He said he would be my, he was the one that I felt I had to pay some homage to. I had Dame as well. And I approached it the same way you did. I was psyched that the Silver Anniversary team was on there. For people listening, in 1970, they did a 25th anniversary team. And it was all guys who had already retired. So like Wilt wasn't on it. Elgin wasn't on it. West wasn't on it. Oscar wasn't on it. But the 12 guys they picked, like that stuff matters. The 35th anniversary team where they this list. Like I'm not going to leave Paul Harrison out. I'm not going to leave Dolph Shays out. Those guys in the first 20 years of the league were some of the most important guys.

So I think where people got caught up on this was they just thought it was the 75 best. The people that seem to have issues, they would look at old Bill Sharman footage and be like, what the hell is this? Klay Thompson, it's a way better shooter. And it's like, you can't look at it that way. It's got to be when the guy was playing, in my opinion, how did he compare to everybody he was playing against? How much better was he than just about everybody he played against? And I think if you look at it that way, it becomes a little easier, right? Let me ask you, yes. Let me ask you this, yourself. How did you go about

dealing with the 50, the 50 from 1996 and the possibility of having to bump somebody? I bumped a couple. I had, Dave Bing, I never understood the Dave big thing.

You're going to have to explain it to me sometime. But like, I think he played in 31 playoff games total. He had two first teams. But you know, like comparing him to somebody like Paul Westphal, I think

certain things just took hold. The fact that Dave Big made the list in 96 over some people. Same thing for Tiny Archibald, Lenny Wilkins. They're kind of grandfathered in for some people, but if you actually dig into it, I don't know, Paul Westphal made four straight

first-team OMAs during a really loaded stretch for the league, right? The late 70s when there was a ton of talent. He was the best player in a finals team. And if I compare that to Dave Bing, I'm just like, it seems like he had a better career, but you were there for some of this stuff. I bumped him, I'm just like, it seems like he had a better career, but you know, you were there for some of this stuff.

I, I bumped him. I bumped Lenny Wilkins. Um, and I think that was it out of the top 50. I think those are my only two. It hurt me to bump Lenny Wilkins. I did it only because I have known him over the years.

And, you know, he's a, he is a truly wonderful fellow and he has a distinguished career as a coach as well, but that has, should not have fixed it, factored in for anybody. But yeah, I bumped some, I, I, I bumped, I'm trying to find my list here, but I, I.

Well, I'll tell you too, I bumped that you're going to be surprised by. Go ahead. I didn't have Maravich and I didn't have Earl Monroe. Whoa, we're even, I didn't have Earl Monroe either. And I said, am I really doing this? And that just speaks, this speaks to the difficulty and the breadth of talent that we're talking about. And in some cases, guys, I felt had to be considered in addition to their numbers and their accomplishments, but what mark they left, the image they left, the way they played, especially, you know, and Earl was the best landlocked player ever,

you know, if you will. And Lenny was landlocked too, by the way, they both were. Lenny was also famous for never going right. Lenny Wilkins went left for like 15 years and nobody stopped him from going left. That's just, that's, That's a phenomenon. But I had a trouble. I did drop Earl as well. So that was something that I agonized over. Well, I think Monroe and Maravich were similar for me in that it seemed like more style, personality, kind of charisma was driving the resume versus what the actual resume was.

Like Maravich never had a relevant playoff moment his entire life in the NBA. And at some point, it's like, does winning matter or not with these lists? Like this was a guy who put up big stats on mostly bad to mediocre teams for his whole career. I know how brilliant he was. I know how great he was. But at some point, that has to matter if I'm really trying to narrow it down to 75 guys when I have 100. I just was partial to Pete. And then I kept Pete because

I think Pete's a very unique phenomenon in the history of the game. Of course, so much of it is centered on the fact that he averaged 44 points a game in college without a three-point shot, which was going to stand the test of time. I don't think we'll ever worry about that being eclipsed. I think he was victimized by being on the wrong team always. The Hawks took him for the wrong reason. They took him because he was white, and they were going to make a white superstar out of him. And the players on his team fought him,

resisted him from day one, and it didn't fit. Then he was traded to a terrible team that no one could lift it all by himself, New Orleans. He winds up in Boston and he might've had an interesting McAdoo-like coda to his career, but he quit because he didn't want to play for Bill Fitch. Is that the reason I thought it was his knees? It was more Bill Fitch?

There were two people that I encountered that could have extended their careers and did not want to play for Bill Fitch. The other one was Ernie DeGregorio. And so that's my take on it, and I'll stand on that. But Maravich was a special phenomenon. He did lead the league in scoring. By the way, so did Dave Bing one year.

Bing was on those pretty bad Detroit teams for the most part. But I could make the devil's advocate argument bill for at least 100 guys, at least 100. You know what I'm getting flack for? You'll like this. I'm getting a little minor flack locally. Where's Tommy? And I explained to people, I love Tommy Tommy Heinsohn I love him as a person I love him as a player But On this list He's like

Between 125 and 150 Wow Interesting I had Tommy on my list But only because I didn't get to see him play But it seemed like He was the second best forward

In the league for You know Eight years there Where it was like It was Pettit, then it was Elgin, and Tommy was always kind of, and especially his big game resume was pretty crazy. Well, the big

game, of course, the game seven in 1956, 37 points, 23 rebounds. I might have bent over backwards not to be a homer. I'll be honest. We're all human beings. Those are little foibles. I think I bent over backwards to include a few recent players.

I bent over backwards not to be perceived as a homer, even though I left Bill Sharman off. I did. I mean, because I did leave Bill Sharman off. But I don't think Tommy was a top 75. But anyway, people are

upset that I didn't vote for him here and by the way, I could be wrong I'm not going to the mattress to say that I couldn't be persuaded to change my mind on that one either but I didn't have him there My big, I'm proving to you I'm not a homer pick was, I left Robert

Parashoff I actually, I ranked it and I had him 76th. He was my first, my first two cuts. This is tough. These are my bubble guys. 76 was Robert Parrish, Carmelo 77, Alex English 78, Dantley 79, Monroe 80, Maravich 81, Thompson,

Rodman 82, David Thompson 83. Those are my first nine cuts I wanted to put all those guys on but at some point your list is your list you know I voted for some of the guys

that you you know that for how could you leave a seven time rebounder I'm asking you a rebound champion

and an all defensive team guy who was an important part of of three major teams the Rodman piece? And who's a crackpot. How could you leave him off? I don't understand that. I didn't feel great about it.

I thought he was one of the best defensive players I saw. Seven-time rebound champ! One of the best rebounders I ever saw. He was actually debilitatingly a problem in multiple cases, including I ended up like I just couldn't get over that Spurs season

when he basically sabotaged their title chances that year when they had Robinson at his peak, a season that I felt like they could have won. And you look at that and then you look at the 98 season, he's pretty checked out that last dance season for the most part. He's not Rodman anymore. He's like a show of himself. It was tough. I liked all of those

guys. I actually wish it could have been a top 85. I think I would have felt better at. I voted for one of the guys you mentioned. I think he's a special special player. You have to explain to younger people who didn't see him. They just don't understand the phenomenon. And that was Adrian Dantley.

Adrian Dantley was a 6'3 1⁄2", something forward. I don't know what you want to call it. But he was an inside-oriented player with 6'3 1⁄2", who well into what we would call a modern basketball era, was an unstoppable offensive force. And at every level, he was unstoppable. The math at Notre, and the NBA. Led the league and scored as many as 31 points a game in a style that will never come back

because the game is going to the three-point mania. It's never coming back. There's people on that list whose games will never come back. McHale. You know, nobody's been like McHale in the last 28 years. Nobody. And Adrian Daly was unique at there's, and there's, Adrian Dantley was unique at the time

and God knows he'd be unique now. But anyway, I voted for him. I was very fond of him. I'm trying to, Well, you did, wait, hold on, on Dantley, you, you named a box score quirk, the Dantley. Yes. Explain the Dantley to the listeners.

Well, when you score more free throws than field goals, I call that a Dantley. And he was, he wasn't, well, we're going to get to that. I'm going toley to the listeners. Well, when you score more free throws than field goals, I call that a Dantley. And he wasn't, well, we're going to get to that. I'm going to get to this in a minute. But his all-time, my two favorite box scores. I'm going to give it a quiz you here, right here in public. 9-28-46. That was Dantley.

And for anybody listening, this is pre-three-point shot. No three-point shot available. 9-28-46. Hold on. You have to explain that better. The old box scores were just made field goals, made free throws points. That was it. So 92846 was his box score. Yeah. That's the greatest of that type of box score. Who had 34-64? Who would you guess? 34-64. Is that

Carmelo? No, but it's a Carmelo-ish player, a little bit different era. Alex English? Who was it? Rick Barry. Wow. 34-64? Those are my flip side. Those are like the flip side of the64? Those are my flip side.

Those are like the flip side of the record. Those are the flip sides of my favorite box scores. Jesus. 30 field goals in a game? And only four free throws. As opposed to nine field goals and 28 free throws. On Dantley, I did a thing. I remember my book because I was fascinated by him too

because he was a 6'3 low post guy. He was herky jerky. Nobody could defend him one-on-one. And it was just clear that this was never happening again in our lifetime. The issue was he got traded five times. I know. And he was a real pain in the ass. I feel like that has to be factored in, right?

And this is where human fallibility and frailty comes in. I have always been fascinated with him. He's one of my guys. And I didn't think I had to justify it totally, you know, but I understand what you're saying. And maybe, and I should have taken a little, and some other people, I might, and you mentioned one of them, Rodman,

taking that more into consideration than I actually did, I think about that. I, you know, I voted for at least one guy whose game I hated, but I couldn't deny it. That's Alvin Hayes. I think you did more to shape my Alvin Hayes opinion than probably anybody. He was, what did he not play the last 10 minutes of game seven and the title they won? I'll never forget the day he begged out of a game in Boston.

He's getting his ass kicked in the third quarter by Cowens. And he's got his hand up about five minutes into the third quarter. Oh, yeah. No, I still maintain they don't win that title if he doesn't foul out. Thank God he was off the floor when Mitch Kupchak went for that loose ball in 78 and saved the game for the game for the bullets. Anyway, I'm not a big Elvin Hayes guy. That's for sure. I think out of anyone in the seventies, I think, I think the social media era would have been trouble for Elvin.

Cause he would just, he would play 82 games, but he actually, how many would he actually be full speed in? And also he was a boring monotonous player with one move. It was a great move. It worked for him. Turnabout jumper. It worked for him. But, you know, I don't know. I just couldn't go and deal with it.

Wouldn't you say Dwight is kind of his generation's version of Elvin, where the resume was there, the stats were there, there was actual success, and yet everybody who was there in the moment was kind of like, eh, not fun to watch, not really enjoyed this. Positively. He is my least, my two least favorite player of the last 10, 15 years are Chris Webber, who does not belong in the Hall of Fame and not for the NBA. If you want to say put him in his college exploits, then that's fine.

And Dwight Howard. I think Dwight Howard is a, despite the number of times he was all defense, despite the rebound totals, I think he's a squandered talent who never, ever developed a pure offensive game and is an impediment to winning. He finally has found his niche.

He's a backup. So you don't give him credit at all for being the best guy on a team that beat LeBron in 2009, beat him in the conference finals when LeBron was playing great. No, I don't. I may be irrational and I'll confess to it. I don't think I have to apologize for not voting for Dwight Howard. You mentioned another guy that I probably should have given more consideration. I'm not saying I would have, but a lot of people have rallied to his defense.

And that's how it feels. I bet you would concur to as many, from all the stuff, the reaction you've seen, his name may come up most frequently. Yeah, it's, so I remember when I was trying to figure out the list of my book and you have these great scoring forwards and you had Bernard King, who I think his apex was just higher than Dantley and English. Absolutely.

He had to be on the top 75. I'm glad he made it. Oh, did he make it or he didn't make it? He didn't. He didn't make it. Yeah, my bad. So he didn't make it. Alex English didn't make it. Dantley didn't make it. But Carm didn't make it. Yeah, my bad. So he didn't make it. Alex English didn't make it. Dantley didn't make it. But Carmelo did make it.

And I think Carmelo was kind of his generation's versions of those guys. Except he was never as great as Bernard King was. Bernard King, he never... Carmelo never could have taken on the 84 Celtics by himself. That wasn't happening. I covered what I considered to be the greatest five-game series in the history of the NBA. The 1984 Knicks-Pistons first-round game, first-round series,

in which he averaged 40. And he had 44 in the final game in overtime, which they won, which he sealed with a two-hand stuff of a putback. Here's an out Bernard King story for you. In game one of that series at the Silverdome, oh no, at the Silverdome. Game five was in Joe Lewis, by the way.

But game one and two were in Silverdome. Jimmy Brown, coach of the Knicks, called Bernard King's number or his play 13 consecutive possessions in the first quarter, out of which he got 22 of the possible 26 points. Wow. And he was the most, you're right. There was a period of time, he was the greatest offensive force in the league. Quickest release ever. I called him Mazeroski. When you gave him the ball on the low post, it was gone out of his hand before you could react if you were guarding him. If you could, nobody... He was the best low post block on the block guy

in basketball in those days, other than Mikhail. And it's five inches shorter. He was a phenomenon. The only thing that set him back was the beginning was, of course, his personal problems, his alcoholism, which he did conquer, fortunately.

And secondly, injury in the end. He still remains the only guy in the NBA to score 20 points a game without a medial collateral ligament. Is that true? Yes, when he was with the end. He'd still be managed the only guy in the NBA to score 20 points a game without a medial collateral ligament. Is that true? Yes, when he was with the Washington. Yeah, because I just think out of all those scoring forwards, he

had a level that the other three didn't have. His peak value was just so right. His peak value was the highest. And that's why I couldn't 100% get there with Parrish and I didn't know if I was trying to overreact to being a home, a home or too much, but you know,

he, when you talk about cushy situations, you talked about the Maravich version of that, which is like from day one until the end of year nine, he's in probably a terrible basketball situation. Now, could you argue like if magic Johnson had been in those situations, would he have made it work better?

Probably. Um, Could you argue like if Magic Johnson had been in those situations, would he have made it work better? Probably. Parrish goes from this Golden State train wreck of a situation in the late 70s to pops in next to Bird and McHale and has the luxury of, he's doing all the dirty work. He also doesn't really have a lot of offensive responsibility. He's playing with one of the three or four best passers in the history of basketball. He's playing on awesome teams every year.

And it's just a nice spot. And it's just hard to judge like, all right, what happens if he's just like has Bob Lanier, if he's just on those forgettable Pistons teams for his entire career and then his career's over, would he have been on the top 75? No. I think you make the same case for James Worthy to some degree. I voted for James Worthy. But what happens if

James Worthy is just on Denver his whole career and then he retires? So that's where it gets tough for me with the 75 to separate circumstance, opportunity versus the actual talent ceiling upside. Well, a lot to unpack on that last little dissertation of yours. I'll start with that. Worthy. I finally voted for him. I know there was a point in time when we did my list, we did it, and I didn't have him, but I finally relented on him. But I could be talked out of it easily.

Robert, if you check Robert's field goal percentages, his relentlessly consistent nature, they're completely off the chart screen uh he was the only thing that ever changed with him was field goal attempts which diminished over time because of the increasing importance of mikhail and and and and then later on you know dj got his shots up and danny got his shots up but ro Robert's over 50 every year for like 10 to 11 years in a row. And he was, Thickenwall was master with Larry. I just think he was one of, easy a top 10 all-time center.

I'll tell you this about him though. When he was with Golden State, I had more than one conversation, breakfast conversations at the airport with Bill Fitch. And he said boy i'd love to get my hands on that robert parish and um because he he wanted to use his running ability he was al alice didn't make him run or allow you know and and he was trying out for the pan am team which is being coached by dave gavitt and they were practicing at rhode island college and i went down to see them because i yeah and and gavitt was raving about this guy from Centenary

that people didn't know about and said, watch him run. And it was totally unexploited by the Warriors and completely exploited by the Celtics. Robert Parish beat a lot of guys down the floor. You can remember this. Now I feel bad. Now I feel like I should have put him on. Remember how artistic.

He wasn't just a dunker. He could go up and under. He could hesitate. He was a fluid athlete. He just says, you know, he's a stoic guy. You know, he was nicknamed chief by Cedric Maxwell in honor of the cuckoo's nest, you know? I'm going to tell you, we got to take a break.

I'm going to tell you who I bumped him for because he was my 76 guy, but we you we gotta take a break I'm gonna tell you who I bumped him for because he was my 76 guy but we're gonna take a break this episode is brought to you by Movember the mustache is back with a vengeance

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like the fact that York U graduates have a 90% employer satisfaction rate. That's because across its three GTA campuses, York U's programs are strategically designed to prepare students for a meaningful career and long-term success. Join us in creating positive change at yorku.ca slash write the future. Talking about Robert Parrish. So I had him 75th, but I also had Dennis Johnson. And I wanted, I was trying to pull all the Celtics Kool-Aid out of my veins.

And to me, it felt like at some point I had to pick DJ or Parrish. I bumped Parrish for Luka Doncic. I had Luka Doncic and Nikola Jokic on my list. I had Jokic even higher than Doncic. But I felt like you're talking about being respectful to the current players in the current, relatively current era. I just felt like, I don't being respectful to the current players in the relatively current era. I just felt like, I don't know, even five years from now, those guys not being on this list would be weird.

The same way when Shaq made the 96 list, that seemed weird. Wow, so early for him. But it was the right thing to put him on the list. It would have been the right thing to put LeBron in 2006 on a list like this. And I just felt like that was the right thing to do. But now I have a lot of regrets. That aspect. Okay. DJ, I feel badly. I didn't vote for DJ. And I, you know, and I would gladly take the stand and be his witness before any tribunal about how great he was. So, you know, that makes me feel bad, but I didn't do it and I have to live with

it. Oh, the other guys, the young guys, number one, when Shaq made that team, I was, I went up, I was apoplectic in 96. It was too soon. I thought, I just thought, I don't know what the arbitrary cutoff is, but it's too soon. I thought I looked at, you know, I, I, I had no hesitation about voting for Anthony Quambo. Obviously I couldn't, I had no hesitation about voting for Anthony Dequambo, obviously. I couldn't, no hesitation. He's in year nine. I hesitated voting for Anthony Davis. I went back and forth and back and forth. I had it in my head that he hadn't been around long enough. Then I looked it up. This is year 10. Right. So, okay. And I, by the way, in the end, I didn't.

And I'll listen. You know, that's just part of the, you know, the difficulty of this vote. But I do think that in cases of Doncic and Jokic, it is too soon. That's the way I look at it. I understand what you're saying. I know they're the two of the best talented players in the history of the league in 795. But now we're talking about accomplishment. I don't know where the cutoff is, but I do

think it's somewhere between the three years of those guys, or four, whatever it is, in one case, and the 10 years of the other two, of Anthony Quambo and Davis. Somewhere in there, I think, there's a cutoff line. I think that they fall short for me. I wish I hadn't done Luca. If I had to do it over again, I would have left him off. I don't think he's played enough. I think that they don't, but they fall short for me. I wish I hadn't done Luka.

If I had to do it over again, I would have left him off. I don't think he's played enough. I think I was projecting too much. Jokic, I feel okay about. I think he was in the 2014 draft. So he'd played seven years. So it was like right near the cutoff.

Won an MVP. So that was good. Let's talk about DJ because DJ hurt me the most that he didn't make the list because I just feel like even like his Hall of Fame thing where it took 10 years too late for him to make the Hall of Fame. He was dead by the time he made it, which I thought was just bullshit. People think of him as Celtics DJ, right?

But you were covering the league for Seattle DJ. There were two DJs. There was the early DJ to Seattle and the Seattle DJ league for Seattle DJ. There were two DJs. There was the early DJ to Seattle and the Seattle DJ and the Phoenix DJ. And then there was the Celtic DJ. I think he didn't get the respect he deserved simply because his final total, because I believe off the top of my head, you can look 14 points a game. He was capable. In my mind, he's more of an 18 or 20-point-a-game guy,

but it was 14 points a game total. That's the story. Some people just got hung up maybe on that. It wasn't enough for them. For that, taking into consideration the great defensive player that he was or the fact that he changed his game when he got to Boston. He was never really— Wait, hold on.

Go back to the defensive player. He's the best defensive perimeter guy in the league until Pippen. I described him in a way I never described another guard. Okay? Destructive. He was a destructive defensive guard.

Here's one for you. This alone... I know you know. In the 1979 finals, people, listen up, youngins, listen up. In a five-game series, operating as a guard, that would be a backcourt player, he blocked 14 shots while scoring 20 points a game. He blocked, I'll repeat that.

He blocked 14 shots as a guard in a five-game NBA game. By the way, it's on YouTube. So Seattle, they make the finals in 78. They win the finals in 79. They almost make the finals in 80. They lose to the magic Kareem Lakers, but they get to the conference finals. The league's loaded.

It's like a 21-team league at that point. It's him and Gus Williams are really the two great players in that team. I mean, I don't think people consider them the great now, but in the moment they were top 15 guys. They were an incredible backcourt together. They ended up not getting along and Gus holds out and DJ's unhappy. They flipped him for Paul Westphal.

But man, you look at the resume, just those three years, he's at least starting a conversation. Then he goes all the stuff that happens in Boston, where he guards Magic, he takes Magic out of the last four games of the 84 finals. Only after reason prevailed and KC put him on him. Right. KC didn't have him. We were going crazy.

Why isn't he guarding Magic? So he guards him, he neutralizes him, and he scores 20 points a game in each of the final four games in that series. So you have that. You're making me feel horrible. Well, 85, he makes the big shot in game four, ties it at 2-2, the Celtics blow game six, some terrible McHale foul calls that I'm not going to talk about.

86, he's the effective point guard of the best basketball team I've ever seen in my life, except for maybe the 2017 Warriors. I don't know. I saw it. He made the, what's the guard? The big guard that had, feel like he was wearing an iron overcoat. Oh, Robert Reed.

Robert Reed. He shut him down and, you know, totally dominated him. Here's the other thing. The Celtics, the guy they can't get by for years is Andrew Toney. Owns Boston. Literally his nickname is the Boston Strangler. They trade for DJ and we never lose to Philly again. That part matters. And then last thing, the steal is going on? Who's cut into the basket for the layup? And then who makes it? DJ makes this twisting layup, reverse layup, basically. He starts off on the foul line or almost near the top of the key when he reads this whole play immediately.

And if he doesn't make that cut, Larry's perching on one leg like a flamingo with nothing to do with the ball, but ball out of bounds. And he makes a contested backhand layup as well, by the way. But, you know, I'm making my case. I'm making myself. I'm not going to sleep well tonight thanks to this now. Well, I'll give you more. NBA Finals MVP, 79.

First team All-NBA, 81. Second team All-NBA, 80. Nine all defenses, six first teams. And the durability is amazing. He never played fewer than 72 games. He missed 48 games total. He also played 180 playoff games. So I'm just like,

what am I missing? I don't get it. I know he was a little bit of a malcontent. I get it. And also, Larry Bird's famous declaration, which he reiterated, did not back down from, best player ever played with, which is probably, Kevin's going to be nursing that wound to his grave.

So how much of that was Bird actually believed that and how much of that is like a slight dig at McHale because they had a weird relationship? 80-20. Yeah, I would say 70-30, 80-20, somewhere in there. Yeah, somewhere in there. Can you educate? There was just enough of this that it upset me. And I just think you need to sit the pupils in the class and you need to swing your ruler at them for two minutes. There was just a little, why is Bill Walton on this list? So go, just take the floor.

Bill Walton is the greatest what if in baseball history. And yet he does have an accomplishment as an MVP and as a man who was the focal point of a championship team, which was, had it stayed together and should have, and if he had not, if he had not gotten hurt, I think would have won multiple championships, would have been going down in history as one of the great dynasties in NBA history. The Portland Trail Boys was of 87. They were 50 and 10 the next year when he got hurt.

And essentially his career was never the same again. Bill Walton is the greatest two-way center in the history of basketball. What do I mean by that? If I had to have a, if the earth were in competition in a one game winner take all with an planetary invader. And if we lose the planet, the game, we're going into servitude for all eternity. And, and it's a basketball game. And I have a pick of the number one pick of all players who've ever laced up a sneaker to win this one game. My chicken choice is Bill Walton. You run your offense to him, you run your defense to him,

and you're going to have a wonderful team. The injuries just completely cut him short. He was the perfect center. Now, that's in a game that is no longer played today. Now, how he would have adjusted, now I'm not sure, but he was a high post passer as well he's the greatest passing center in the history of basketball

but we do have a new candidate to challenge him and that's Mr. Jokic but it's just he cast just a shadow over every team that he played against when he was healthy his peak is as good as anybody's, and that's why he belongs in the top 75.

The Jokic thing, because I think Jokic, I actually think he's as good of a passer as Walton. I think that's how good he's been, and especially as he gets to know his teammates better. But imagine if Jokic was 7'3", and was the dominant defender in the league, while also doing all the passing stuff that Jokic does. That's what we're talking about here.

Jokic, in a weird way, kind of combines some of the offensive stuff that Bird used to do, and then that kind of passing gene that Walton had, and Bird obviously had too. But he's closer to almost Bird than Walton for me. It's a hybrid. No, the more I think about it,

I think you're right. He's definitely a hybrid. And maybe it's 60, Bird and 40, Walton or 765, 35, whatever. But yes, he is a truly special player. Truly special. And yes, he is. I wasn't on to him as a rookie.

I was put on to him after his rookie year. You've got to pay attention to this guy. This guy, you know, and talking about his passing ability. And once I saw it, I went, oh boy, I didn't think I'd see anything as close to Walton ever again. And you're right. With more experience and as his teammates get to appreciate what they can do and what they should be doing, playing with a guy like that, his skills are flourishing. You know, especially their team,

I always want to watch them, you know, because of him. Period. Well, you're in Massachusetts, so you didn't catch it. On the West Coast out here, I get a lot of Denver. And it feels like every year Jokic's passing has gotten a little crazier. Remember Bird hit that point in the mid-80s where it was just like, he just saw

everything. He was like a second ahead of where everybody else was on the court. And it was like, what's happening? Does this guy have telepathic ability? Jokic is getting there. Going back to what we were talking about five minutes ago, you'll well remember those incredible passes Bird made to DJ on the baseline. Coming up and DJ would make that left to right cut and Bird would look over here and off the dribble, send that missile to DJ for a layup. Well, they would do the reverse too. They would have the Bird would be under the basket

with his hands down and DJ would just throw him a hard pass and at the last second, Bird would put his hands up, catch it, do the layup. Yeah, that's the thing. We see it the same way. Well, you taught me a lot of what I know about basketball. So, uh, you had your eight that didn't make it were Dantley. Cause you wrote about this on Sunday, Dantley, Bernard King, Dan Issel, Bob Lanier, Tracy McGrady, Chris Mullen, Clay Thompson, and Gasol. I'm with you. I, I, I wanted to figure out how to get Gasol in there. I had him

like in the low 80s, like 83, 84 range. I got to say the Memphis thing, that was the reason I held off. That cost him 10 spots for me. He kind of tanked it in Memphis. He did. And by the time the Lakers got him, it was a 40 cents in the dollar package. And this is Gasol, like his sixth year in the league. I had trouble getting past that. I have to make an amendment before we start. I caught an error of my own that I wrote this column and didn't do enough

double, double, triple, quadruple checking of my own, on my own, of my own people. I made the fatal mistake, and you know as a writer, you do it, and you often regret it. Doing completely on memory at certain things and not making sure. You're so sure you're right, but you're not right. I did not vote for Dan Issel.

I remember, and I cited Issel twice in my column, that I'm unhappy he didn't make it and I'm partially responsible. I talked myself out of it and I regret doing that because I think he was a special scoring machine. Okay, what else? So that's number one. So Gasol is in for you.

This is where I admit I've discussed human frailty. You know, if you want to call it bias, predisposition, whatever. Certain players you just love. And I'm particularly sensitive to this Gasol thing, because in 2010, I was on the voting body for the finals MVP. That he should have won? And he should have easily won. And Kobe won because he was Kobe, despite the fact he went

six for 24 in the final game. And Gasol was the best player, period. And period. I'm sorry, I'll never come off that. And then he built on that and built on that. Maybe I'm biased because I saw him in those two Olympics when Spain pushed us to the wire and he was so good. I think he was the best.

I maintain that there was a period of that time from roughly 2010 to 12, 13. He was the most skilled big man was the best. I maintain that there was a period of time from roughly 2010 to 12, 13. He was the most skilled big man in the world. Nobody had a broader range of skill in the low post position than Pau Gasol. And when you can have that kind of stature at a point in time in history, I think you're deserving. So I'm a suck up. I'm not against it. No, honestly, you're kind of talking me into it a little bit because I'm just a, I'm a sucker. I'm not against it. No, honestly, I, I, you're kind of

talking me into it a little bit because I went to those 08 finals games in the Celtics bullied him a little bit. 2010, he bullied them and was the biggest reason they won that series. I would believe that to my grave. He was the most important player in that series. They Celtics could not keep him away from the rim. And what's interesting about that series, it's kind of the last old school basketball finals where it's like the series was kind of decided the five feet around the rim. Right after that, we start moving away, right? The threes, Jason Terry, the next year, and then all of a sudden becomes a jump shooting sport as the decade goes. That was the last kind of...

Very good point. I hadn't thought about that, but I think you're 100% correct. That was the brief transition into the new era. Of course, the thing I always remember about that is game seven, the Celtics were up by three. 94 seconds later, they're down six. And it all started when Derek Fisher hit a three. How

many times was that the case with the Lakers in those days, right? And of course, what killed me, killed me, Bill, was losing to Meadow World Peace. Oh my God. The whole arena made a noise because they didn't want me to shoot the three.

I, you know, he did it. I'll give him full credit, acknowledge he kicked their ass there, but losing to that clown was, that hurt me. That really did. And you thought Clay Thompson should have been on. I couldn't get there. I don't think the body of work is

there yet. I think what hurts Klay Thompson is that he plays along. The other guy's better. So he plays along the greatest shooter of all time. But he's the guy that had a 37-point quarter, by the way. He's had pretty big playoff moments.

And the two-way stuff, too. He was such a good defender. And defense. I voted for him, so I'm not responsible for his demise. No, you can't be 100% sure, certain. I'm just honored, and I think you feel the same way, honored to have been a part of it. If I had to do it all over again. Oh, and I did confess, you noticed I have to tell everybody here.

I made it just to show you, you're not perfect. And I made a colossal boo-boo, which I only discovered like two days later after I mailed the ballot. I forgot, and I'll be honest, I forgot to vote for Bob McAdoo. And I said to myself, when I discovered that I had forgotten to vote for him, that I said, well, but he'll make it, damn it. He'll make it and I won't have to feel so bad. And he did. And I don't because of that.

But if there's a writer outside of Buffalo who should have known better, more than me, having been upfront and personal with those duels with the Celtics when Buffalo was really a terrific team in those years, it's me. Nobody should have been more appreciative or had a better working knowledge of Bob McAdoo as a writer outside of Buffalo than me. And for me to have blown that one, I'm embarrassed. But I have to admit it, I did it. I forgot to vote for him. Yeah, he was a little closer

to Durant than I think maybe he gets credit for. Like some of the stuff he did. 18, 20 feet from the hoop. When I saw Durant, you know what I said? He's a cross between McAdoo and Girvin.

You were right. I started going to the Celtic games 74, 75. And McAdoo is a God, right? And then by the time he showed up in Boston, they traded the three first round picks for him. And he was just completely miserable the entire time. It's like, what happened to this guy?

This guy killed us. And then he eventually figured it out. But yeah, he went into a funk. He had a renaissance with the Lakers and I'm glad he did because he was treated poorly in Boston. You know, I'll tell you a story. They make the trade. And of course, Red didn't want to make the trade.

It was over his head. It was John White Brown. Red had painstakingly assembled three number ones and he makes the trade. And he trades away those three number ones from McAdoo. I'm in San Antonio with the team and I'm sitting in the lobby of the hotel early afternoon and in walks McAdoo.

Nobody around him. Nobody picked him up. Nobody escorted him. Nobody around him. Nobody picked him up. Nobody escorted him. Nobody greeted him. It was a metaphor built for his entire Boston experience. It was. And he was miserable the whole time. He was not treated properly.

Nobody wanted him. It was unfortunate. And he had a right to feel agreed. And I'm glad he had his renaissance in Los Angeles, got his rings. He deserved them. Turned into a trade that ended up getting them the McHale pick. Yeah, so you can't complain about it. It was all fine.

Before we go, give me your state of the Boston sports right now. Who's number one in town? Who's the alpha dog? Who's the lead dog right now? Franchise-wise, the win with Patriots rule, the transformation took place gradually. Even with the Red Sox

breaking a phony curse in 2004 and winning four championships, even in the midst of all that, the Patriots became the number one team. And maybe it wouldn't have been quite as dominant if it weren't for Brady himself being the singular figure that he was and is. But I think they have taken over, and the Red Sox made a nice little comeback in the last three weeks, quite frankly.

And they positioned themselves well to get back in the hunt. But it's a Patriots town like every other city in America. Now, we're no different than everybody else. NFL rules. get back in the hunt. But it's a Patriots town like every other city in America. Now, we're like, we're no different than everybody else. NFL rules. But the Red Sox, certainly the ballpark, Bill, you would have really enjoyed being in the ballpark for the Yankee game and for those three

Astros games. And it was as alive as really I ever remember it. I mean, ever. Seriously. And it was fun. I was really happy to be there. That's number one. And then the winner, Bill, now it depends on who's hotter at the time. Bruins Celtics.

The Bruins fan base, as you know, is incredibly loyal and incredibly, you know, and the Celtics have a whole new crop of fans, of people that never saw Larry, let alone Havlicek or Kuzi and Russell. And they're steadfast. But this team's going to test their patience, by the way. This team is going to test their patience. It's going to be a very interesting year to see if they're going to figure out how to

put things together here. They're trying to operate without a proper point guard. Do you even think about Marcus Smart in those terms? No, I don't. I thought they were going to face him back a little bit and he would basically take a step back and not be somebody who's taking deciding threes in games anymore, which he was doing last night against Charlotte. I'm like, why does he even have the ball? I know.

Because they don't, you know, they got, Schroeder, Schroeder, excuse me, you know, who's a trick-or-treat player to me. He is. Trick-or-treat. I like having him because there's the nights when he can carry you for a quarter or a half. We have central casting sent over to perfect backup and Pritchard,

but he's a career. He's going to be a career backup. You know, he's going to be, he's going to have a 10 or 12 year career, probably play for three or four teams ultimately. And, and,

and be around and have his moments. And he might, he might turn into Steve Kerr someday, you know, he might, it's very possible. Steve Kerr loved him in the draft. The question for me, Jason Tatum,

I think he has greatness in him. Is he ever going to be great? Or is he just going to be one of those guys that the seeds are there, I can see him. There's going to be a night or two where it's like, wow, that guy's great. But does he get it? Does he fully understand what he should be doing game to game?

Because you watch these games where anytime he's like, I'm going to the basket, he's kind of unstoppable. Yeah. You know? And like that's the rant always got to the basket. He would always get to eight to 10 free throws a game and mix in the other stuff.

And Tatum, just some nights he's like, I don't feel like going to the basket. And those are the games where they look like dog shit. When he was a rookie, Nixon, the other stuff. And Tatum, just some nights, he's like, I don't feel like going to the basket. And those are the games where they look like dog shit. When he was a rookie, the thing that first struck you about him was that great first step. And a great first step.

And there was a precociousness about him there. And then, you know, I just think he's caught up in the current NBA culture. The three, the three, the three, you know? Yep. And it's a disease. Everybody has it. I thought he would benefit from the Olympic experience. I was led to believe that there was people around that thought he would really benefit from it and seen the light

in some way, in certain ways. And the other thing is I don't, I didn't, you know, the great X factor on this team from day one was the new coach. Have you ever heard a coach praise some universally outside coming in before the game in the league. And I said, I hope he's as good as all that. I hope people don't think he's going to enter the garden by walking across the Charles River to get to the stadium. You know, but I don't know what influence yet he's going to have. You know, we don't see any positive effect on smart yet. Tatum has had, start out seven for 30.

All right, that's going to, you can have those kinds. And last night, you know, he was, he was a big boy last night. He looked great last night. And I think he took the Hayward thing personally. And it was like, he was playing like the Jason Tatum. You know, I never want to be the guy sitting on the couch telling people,

you should be playing this way. He's way better at basketball than I ever was in my life. But at the same time, it's so clear the certain things he should be doing and that sometimes he just forgets. Well, I was counting on that Amy Adoka would get to him

and get the things we're talking about because I think we're on the same page with this. We are. The skill level is there. The intelligence is there. You just got to put the whole thing together. I call it calibration, Bill. When the great guys with a range of skill

have to learn how to calibrate their skills, when to turn certain things on and utilize this as opposed to that, and how to blend with the teammates, which includes the psychological blend, and when to hold back and have the other guy do it, or when it's time for me to do it, which is what Michael had to learn.

And it's what LeBron had to learn. No one's amused. They all have to learn it. You know, Bird instinctively knew it, you know, as much as anyone I ever saw from day one. He was also older. I mean, he was older as a rookie than Tatum is now. Bird turned 23 in his rookie year, December 7th, 1979.

You're right. And these guys come in and they're five-year veterans at 24, 25. So it's a different world in that regard, exactly. Well, we've got 78 more games to go for him to figure it out. But I do think this team has a – there's a feeling they're going to be trying our patience for a while before they figure something out. Yeah, or maybe this isn't the same team three months from now. They have a lot of tradable contracts.

You know, the Tatum thing, though, it reminds me of Pierce was in the same boat for a while, right? In 03, 04, 05, where we're like, this guy's so talented. There's a couple pieces here he doesn't get. Yeah, he never locked at all until the other guys came. I mean, from that point on, yeah. See, I would say the that point on, yeah, once Garnett... See, I would say the year before when they sucked,

the year before they tanked, the 06 year, I actually felt like he figured it out. The team just wasn't good. But remember he made like, I think he made 13 All-NBA or... Oh, yeah. And he was just like,

I was like, oh, he gets it now. He understands like how to give the ball away. That was what, year seven for him? It was your Celtic quiz then. Okay, Bill Simmons. What number of rank is he in your all-time list of great Celtics? Oh, my God. I mean, he's not on the A-list team, but he's on the B-list, right?

He's in that kind of Charmin, Heinsen, Parrish DJ, McHale list we all know who the Matt Rushmore is alright, the next cluster for me is McHale, Cowens and him and he's third out of those three isn't he?

he belongs in that cluster he does, I agree but you know better than anyone, Cowens is one of the lost great guys in the history of the league. You know, I am hopelessly, you know, prejudiced in favor of Dave Cowens. And, you know, of course.

So I love Dave Cowens. My dad, same thing. My dad was like, my dad will go to his grave defending Dave Cowens and him going to war with Kareem, who was eight inches taller than him. Absolutely. And Lanier. And when you look back, I did a column once, way a number of years ago, go back to the 90s, I think it's 71, 72,

70, 71. Look at the names of the centers in basketball, both leagues, real old-fashioned centers, old-fashioned Al McGuire aircraft carriers. And what a world that was that is gone. It is truly like before the meteorites hit and the dinosaurs died 65 million years ago. There was some kind of meteorite hit the NBA and those centers don't exist anymore. But take a look at what the world was like in those days.

And Cowens was right there with all of them at 6'8 and a half. So give people your Mount Rushmore just for people who would know this off the top of their head for the Celtics. And the order too. The order is Russell 1 and Bird 2 and Havlicek 3 and Kuzi 4. And then we

draw a line and then we start arguing. Right. And then it's I have Cowens then McHale I think. I then it's, I have Cowens, then McHale, I think. I can't remember where I had, but it's close. I'll go McHale. Now I got to look. Maybe I had McHale, but they were right near each other. And I know I probably, you know, but I'll tell you what, you can make a case for Pierce. You can make it.

And you know what I say, and I'm sure you're aware, and I've taken a lot of flack for this, he's the greatest individual scorer and the greatest pure scorer in Celtic history. Nobody could put the ball in the basket more reliably in different ways than him. Unlike Larry, who didn't need a little help, certain guys could guard him, at least to the point where he needed a pick. Never for Paul Pierce. He could get that shot off, much like Curry.

He can get the shot off anytime he wanted, ever, always. He could go to the basket, don't foul him, he'll make 80-some percent. He's the greatest finisher in a break that he ever had, I think. And he could shoot threes as well. Incredibly durable, Really good defensive player. Went against some awesome ones. And also probably born 10 years too soon

because if you put him in the 2010s as like a stretch four, I hate you would have been devastated. And he's one of the two guys of this, that recent era that I think were throwback players from the 50s which I said they could bamboozle away under the free throw line, you know,

half a dozen times a game. The other one being Manu Ginobili. I think those two guys would have, you could place them in the, close your mind, eyes and put them back in the Syracuse Nats against the Fort Wayne Pistons as much as any two players have played in the game in the last 15 years.

I feel that way about Facundo Compazzo too. I feel like I could have put him in any era. That's a fun list of what players could have fit in during every decade of the NBA. I do feel like Pierce easily could have played in like 1957. Absolutely.

Oh, I got one for you. We talked about Dantley earlier. You talked about the Dantleys. During the course of my research, I came across, I looked up Dolph Shays again. And I always knew that he had taken more free throws, made more free throws than field goals and thought he was singular.

We have in our midst someone else. Who is that? Made more free throws. Isn't it Harden? It is. He's made well over 100 more free throws than field goals. I thought that he would be the closest thing to Shays, but wouldn't even be close.

Instead, no. He's like 150 more or so. How's that? Well, just one of the things you taught me to look at free throws and who's getting to the line, because especially when it gets playoff time, that's sometimes it comes down to that.

Giannis is another one. Giannis gets to the free throw line. Durant was always getting to the free throw line, you know, at every point in his career. And I'm always, I'm always going to like those guys a little bit more because there's going to be these moments. You're an imposing building, six minutes left,

nothing's going right. Where it's, that was always when Bird was at his best. Like, I don't have it tonight. I'm getting to the line. When they beat Milwaukee in that series in 87 and it came from behind the fourth quarter, Larry just got himself. He said to Pressey, Paul Pressey, I had enough of this crap. I'm posting you up and I'm going to the line. Right. I said, I had one more.

Luca has some of that too, I think. I think Luca's already started to figure out when it's not going well, I'm going to the line. I know you'll relate to this one. One of the great short-term examples of it was Dwayne Wade. Right? 2006. They'll bitch forever, right?

In Dallas? They will. And it's weird because it's actually unfair to Wade now. Because the calls weren't great. And there was a couple of bad ones. But at the same time, what he was doing was they were down 10 in game three, down to nothing in the series. And he was just like, fuck it.

And just started going to the line and crashing into people. And he was getting the calls. It was the right thing to do. But I'm weird on Wade because on the one hand, I think his career is a little overrated, but I think his peak is underrated.

I really feel like he was as good as Kobe for like four or five years there where it was, it was a real argument year after year for me. And I, I, I kind of had him on my back burner too long as well. And I came around, you know,

I came around with him. Yeah. All right, Bob Ryan. Great to see you. Sorry about the red socks. Um, don't be a stranger. We got to do a three way with me and Jackie name. Yeah. All right, Bob Ryan, great to see you. Sorry about the Red Sox. Don't be a stranger. We got to do a three-way with me and Jackie on this podcast.

That'll be the next step. But great to see you. Glad you're well. Take care. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. What does possible sound like for your business?

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All right. Justin Termini is here from Sirius's NBA show, which is one of my go-to channels, especially driving around in LA because it's mid-afternoon this time. You do it with Eddie Johnson. You guys, you will openly fight on the air with him, which I really enjoy. I don't think we'll fight as much because I feel like we're pretty aligned on a lot of this stuff. But I still wanted to hit the big topics. What time is the show on? Because I'm on West Coast time. I don't know.

So it's four to seven Eastern time. We start fighting right around four o'clock. Okay, great. And you do a good job of egging us on, too, as well, saying you actually like it. So it gives us ambition. And we agree on a lot. We still aren't fighting about the minutia. So that's the problem.

If we really had different viewpoints, it would be a massive problem. We agree on most things and still end up fighting about it. So let's talk first. I was talking to somebody today, and I think this is a good way, a good entry point for us. In the over-under pods I did with Priscilla and House, I was saying how I thought it was Giannis 1A, KD 1B drop-off.

And maybe even a slight drop-off, but I just thought it was 1A, 1B, and then three we could argue about. Some people would have LeBron there, some people would have Jokic, et cetera, et cetera. I think just from what we've seen in the first week, Jokic has demanded to be at least included in that conversation as a 1C. I still feel like Giannis is 1A. And if anything, he's looked even better this season. He basically picked up where he left off. Durant is still Durant. I'm not ready to nudge him out of the 1B spot, even though the Brooklins looked a little goofy. But Jokic has moved into that conversation with the stuff he's doing. What's your opinion on what you've seen

from Jokic first week? Yeah, well, I mean, you're a big Walton guy. So this is just like an overall thing, right? And I've always said Bill's the best passer in the history of the sport. I think he should have been on the list of 75. I know there were a lot of people taking it off or taking him off.

I think Jokic is the best passer of all time. And I know you're talking with Bob Ryan today. And Bob feels the same way. But Jokic is doing it from so many different areas on the floor. He's one of my five most exciting players to watch. He deserves to be in the conversation. I don't think he won it last year just because he played 72 games. I think that was unfair. I also thought it was BS when people were saying, oh, he's the worst MVP since Dave Cowens, who, by the way, was pretty good. I think he's in the top five three different times in the MVP race. I think he deserves to be in that conversation.

But there's also another guy, Bill, and you can tell me if you agree or disagree. I said this on the air the other day. I said, why am I looking at all these lists? So I'm a Giannis guy with you, but why am I looking at all these lists? And I'm hearing LeBron, Giannis, and KD, and nobody else is acceptable. Doesn't Steph deserve a seat at that table? I have him

second in my MVP race last year. He does. And I have, you can't see, well, my white iPad. So I have that first tier. I have Steph as the 1D. So it's now four. And look, this is going to change.

The season ebbs and flows. Guys get hot. Guys cool off. Guys have injuries, stuff like that. But with Steph, I was wrong on the Warriors. I caught it right before the season. I had them for the under when we did the over-under. It was like 48 and a half. By the time the actual season started, I was like, this is the one. If I could flip it, I would do Golden State over, Portland under. Yesterday, I bet on Golden State plus 320 to win their division. I think they might actually be the best team in the West because you think what we're seeing now, how advanced they are, Klay's coming back, assets for a trade, and then what you just said, Steph is just at the peak of his powers. You can see it game to game. He is just incomplete. It's like almost watching a pitcher. It's like watching Maddox or Pedro way back when,

where it's just like, oh, this guy knows every single thing he wants to do. He knows how to play off his teammates. They know how to play off of him. And it's like the sum of the parts is better than the whole. So I think I'm with you. I think he's one D right now.

Yeah. And I was on New York, New York with JJ, John just scrims just a couple of weeks ago. And I'm an idiot. Cause I picked the under for them as well. Now, I said they could be a championship team because I thought once they get Roland Clays back, playoffs, like they'll be maybe close to the old Warriors. So I thought that,'ve been going back and forth and that's like I thought those teams had an advantage in the Lakers too because they were together for a decade plus almost right so like they knew where everybody was going to be on the floor they didn't have to spend all all season like adapting to each other they've been through

adversity together and once they get clay back you're gonna have three guys plus their coach that have been in those situations before I think that's going to help especially when they get into a tight situation against, say, the Lakers, who haven't done it together before. And we already saw maybe a little infighting. You don't think when the pressure intensifies, it could get worse?

Yeah, with that Lakers team, it feels like... I felt this way before the year, and I feel triple down on it now. There will be five guys on the team we see right now that probably won't be there in February. I think this roster will be a work in progress. And you saw it happen with LeBron in 2018 with the Cavs where they started out there with Jake Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Dwayne Wade. And over the course of that year, all of a sudden that team started to shift. I'm not going to go crazy judging them yet before I know what those moves are. But you made the key point with Golden State. The continuity, which is so rare now.

And you and I are aligned on a lot of the player movement stuff, which I'm not against the concept of players doing what's best for them, making the most money. I'm on board. I'm just saying there's going to be real effects with the basketball we watch. And we see it because when you have these rosters change so dramatically year after year, the Golden State shouldn't stand out like this when we're watching them. And by the way, it's not like they don't have new guys on the roster either. I guess Iggy comes back, but they did work in Otto Porter, you know, they, and Bijelica, who I'm never going

to be able to say his name correctly. They are working in a couple new guys, but it's the thing that they've done differently this time around is the guys they added are guys who make sense for who they are and what their style, guys who know how to move without the ball, guys who are unselfish. Like having Kelly Oubre, who I was watching last night on Charlotte,

who's like a different type of player. He's a wing, he's a three and D wing who will go to the basket and shoot threes. He's not, you know, he doesn go to the basket and shoot threes. He's not, you know, he doesn't have the basketball IQ that Iggy does. And I think they realize like we have to triple down on basketball IQ, guys who know what they're

doing. And now you watch and it's just like it's really impressive for a start of a season for a team to be on the same page like that. Yeah, I think they just get an edge because they know how to play and they play the right way, right? And then Steph, you know, Steph off the ball, you watch him off the ball. You look at the 45 points he had the other day. It's not even just about that. It's about like, so all right, maybe he doesn't do the fancy passes like LeBron or Jokic, but he's doing just as much for his teammates

because they're chasing him around the other day against the Clippers. And when he had 25 points in the first quarter and leaving everybody else wide open. I mean, so that has an impact. And then I like your point to like Bielitsa and Oubre. All right, maybe Bielitsa is not the player that Oubre is, depending on how you feel on Oubre, but he just fits into their style perfectly. And I was shocked that he wasn't utilized a little bit more last year in Miami.

But yeah, I think he's a piece that fits in perfectly. But he might just be one of those guys that it has to be the right situation for him to thrive. Like if you're putting him on the Kings with guard dominated, a lot of ISO stuff, he's just like, what am I doing? But on this team, you can even see it. I want to talk about the Cavs a little bit later,

but you could see the Cavs last night. They bring Rubio in. Rubio's bounced around at this point and he's weirdly become underrated. And then you see Love and Love and Rubio played together. And they had some moments. They beat Denver last night.

Jokic was great, but the Cavs just played really well. They played really hard. But they got baskets from people moving and guys making cuts and stuff like that. And there's like this high basketball IQ with that team that I honestly wasn't expecting. Mobley looks like he's in year three.

I thought Mobley should be the first pick in the draft. Mobley looks like he's in his third year. He's played four games. The way he's moving on defense, you see that stat? He's had 72 contested shots in four games already. It's unbelievable. Yeah, I saw you tweet that. And I think Jared Allen is like third.

And how do you run that front line with it? They got Markkinen at the three. They're going with Mobley at the four. And they've got Allen there at the five. And I don't know how you're going to score against those guys. And we're also going bigger. I was in Cleveland a couple of weeks ago, and I talked with him. And I'm kind of like, yeah.

I see you're doing this in the preseason with these three in the front line. You're not going to do this during the regular season, are you? And they're like, no, no, we're going to do it. And right now it's proven to work because it's not like the schedule has been difficult. They beat Atlanta, who I got as the three seed in the Eastern Conference. They beat Denver, who I got as the three seed in the Eastern Conference.

And they did Denver on the road. Yeah, you think you watch the first week, first two weeks, it's overreactions galore, especially for, I'm only doing three pods a week and I'm only talking basketball on two of them. You're doing shows every day. Every single day coming off the night before is the biggest overreaction possible.

There's two things that I think just having seen four games that I actually really do believe are real. And one is Golden State and one is Cleveland. I don't know if Cleveland's going to win. Are they going to go 500? I don't know. Are they going to go 45 and 37? I wouldn't rule it out. But I think it's real. I think they have nine guys that I like. They can defend. They have size. They can kind of control the paint in a pretty unique way in this day and age with guys who can switch off, you know, on high screens, can actually switch to guards and not get completely embarrassed.

And they have multiple guys who can score. Like, I think he had 21 points in 22 minutes last night. They have guards who can get hot. And what I saw last night, especially in that Denver game, the bench was standing. They're locked in. They're charging on the court after a basket and a timeout.

And it just seemed like... I was hoping this would happen because I love Moby, but I'm a believer. I'm really in. I think this is a sneaky play-in team. Yeah, and Garland's the guy when I was there, everybody was focused on him. And Steph, I don't know if you saw that quote a couple weeks ago.

He's the guy that's going to be the superstar on this team. And you just hope that it doesn't seep over with Sexton not getting that rookie extension where he's viewing the numbers. Because he's capable of putting up big numbers. But you hope that doesn't infect the team. Or like Love with, I want to trade, but he seems to be all in from the the outside. I haven't seen in the past. Maybe that's not the case. But like if you're all in, because I love the style they're playing right now. And I love how they're going big and kind of going against the grain. But like, what does that mean all in? Does it mean like they got a shot at a top 10 seed? Because if I like look at the standings in the Eastern Conference,

I go, all right, they're definitely better than Orlando. They're definitely better than Detroit. Is there anybody else that they could definitely be better than in the Eastern Conference? So I could see them playing very well and still ending up like the 13th seed. Well, their over-under was 27, right?

Yeah. So what's a good season for the Cavs? I think it would be getting to mid-highirties with wins, but you start looking at the teams that are on that fringe, right? Where you have that wizards kind of Celtics, Knicks,

Charlotte, the bulls, that area. And it's like, they're probably a notch below, but considering like rebuilding thing. And I think you and I have a lot of the same feelings about some of the rebuilding stuff that people do, where they're

just like, we're going to be shit for three years, deal with it. This is, it's all part of my plan, but part of that plan involves, Oh, I get to keep my job as we're doing this because I've already said, we're going to suck. So you can't blame me for the sucking because I'm already in the record as we're stripping it down. We're going to 25 wins, take some lottery picks. And the only way you really get fired at that point is that the lottery picks are disaster. In the Cavs case, I like Okoro. I don't think he's an all-star, but he's somebody that defensively and athletically can be out there in big situations, right? Mobley, they hit a home run. Like getting that guy set, he should have been first, getting him second or third.

Getting him third was ridiculous. And then I don't know what to make of the Sexton Garland thing. I think they're both guys who are nine-man rotations. Sexton's probably better than that, but those aren't $25 million a year guys, do you think? No. I mean, I don't know what Steph's talking about. Sometimes stars or superstars or players see the game a little bit differently. I don't know what he's looking at with Garland.

The team seems to be pumping Garland up too when I was there. We talked with Kevin Love and he answered all the questions about whether he was happy or not. I don't know. But when he talked about the success of the team, he kind of just inferred that it all relies on what Garland does and taking the next step. And, I mean, we've seen flashes.

I think it was against San Antonio last year where he had the 37-point game. So you know he can do things like that. And now I guess they're handing him the keys, and now he can learn from a guy like Ricky Rubio. But, like, I felt that when I was there, the biggest thing that we're missing was they got a bunch of number three guys, right? Like guys that can be third best player on a contender. Do they have the number one guy?

Well, maybe that could be Mobley. It looks like right now he's on that trajectory, but again, four games in. But if he's a number one, all right, now we're talking because Allen could maybe be a two or a three. Larry Markin, if he goes back to what he was a couple of years ago, give him some time, maybe still, what, 23 years of age. And then Sexton Garland, a curl off the bench that you mentioned. Yeah, so I like it. But I would say success is probably maybe heading into the last month of the season being competitive? Or even if you're not competitive, would you sign up for like, all right, we know like you got 30 wins, but you know that Mobley is going to be a future superstar. And you know that Garland is,

is going to be a guy that Steph was referring to as a guy that could potentially be a superstar. Like if I got 30 wins, but I knew those guys were going to be great in the future, I would actually sign up for them. Yeah. I guess playing, getting one of the playing spots

would be the ultimate goal for this team, right? Could they get to the 10th spot? They've already won in my mind because they're a really fun league pass team. Yeah. I wasn't expecting that. I don't know. I need to watch more.

I don't, I'm like two weeks away from my league pass rankings. They are my most surprising league passing. I actually genuinely enjoy the games that they've been in. Memphis was another one, but just because of how Jha's playing right now and they're fun to watch anyway, but Jha finally, you know, it's in motion now.

We've been waiting for this. The Jha-Zion thing is tough. It's, especially if you're a Knicks fan and you were thinking that whole year you were getting Zion, you end up getting the three pick. You get Barrett, who's a good player, but you were one spot away from Ja. And now if we do that draft over again, there's no way Ja's not the first pick. I'm a hundred times out of a hundred, but now it actually looks like he's going to be an all NBA guy this year if he stays healthy.

Yeah. And I heard you talking about that in the pod. I think when you're doing the over-unders where it was hard to judge him because if he took that leap in year three, then he by himself could turn that team into a team that's far over. I had him as a 10 seed because I originally didn't like this Val and June straight. I thought he was great last year and I didn't understand that from their perspective. But if he's going to play like this, yeah, they're going to be the over. Yeah. Maybe they can get like a five seed, a six seed. Maybe even higher with the West being a little bit shaky but we did that yesterday actually bill with the the zion and moran thing because i don't understand these lists and i tweeted about this as well but i don't understand these lists you see like everybody is 25 and under and everybody's going like all right it's luca wanted zion to end his story then we could start

talking about jaw and trey and tatum and you know Booker, whoever else. If I'm looking at that, I'm going, all right, we got the healthier guy in Ja, a guy that takes care of his body, a guy that's been leading to wins, a guy that looks like he's a leader. And then maybe most importantly in a situation like this is he looks like less of a flight risk. I mean, Joe Varden had a piece in The Athletic the other day where he was talking about how Jha's like, all right, I'm not in line with these guys that move and hop from place to place. I really enjoyed being in Memphis. Now, back at it, it's changed. We've seen it. But it already appears that Zion, a major concern is he's a flight risk. Not only is he not playing

and not healthy, but he's a flight risk., and jaw doesn't appear to be that right now. The Zion thing is one of the tougher NBA calls in a while. Cause talent wise, I'm a full believer. I thought some of the stuff he was doing last year, I might've even voted him for 13 all NBA. I did. I put him 13 all NBA last year.

The, the offensive, the momentum he had by the end of last season was like, holy shit, where is this going? But now you think he's had three major injuries, and it seems like he has, if you believe the stories, that he's over 300 pounds again. It seems like he has a real issue with staying in shape.

He can't figure that piece out. I don't like the wear and tear. This is something that I think with Blake Griffin, I was talking about on this pod five years ago about your body's like a car. And it's like, if your car has had two car accidents and the axle's broken and you have 112,000 miles on it, at some point the car's not just going to drive as well. And you could see that with Blake. You could see the athleticism in the mid-2010s. It just started to fade a little bit. And I just wonder with Zion, as young as he is and how powerful and spectacular that he can be,

what happens when these miles start adding up on your body and you're up to five surgeries? Right now, he's at three. He's had feet. He's had knees. At some point, there's going to be some real wear and tear. I think Jaws is safe for bet. I really do. Yeah, I'm 100% on board with you. And the other thing,

like speaking of the wear and tear, that would just be annoying for me as a fan, like I hate the load management stuff and I understand it to a certain extent, but I hate it. And I just wouldn't want, on my favorite team, the team I'm rooting for,

even though I'd love to watch Zion play every night, I don't want to have to worry about, all right, when's the next injury coming? Are we just going to rest this guy and never take the regular season seriously? And that's maybe something you're going to have with Zion throughout the course of his entire career, where it's like, all right, right off the bat,

he's going to miss 15 games, even if he's not hurt, because he's just got to take care of his body. That's just frustrating from a viewing perspective. Yeah, and I've heard the theory that, well, he could be the first one that just doesn't even sign the max. He just goes to free.

I feel the opposite. I think he's grabbing the money because when you've already had the wear and tear that he's had, you're grabbing the first max contract. And it's a really weird spot for New Orleans because that's a team, I'm sure you saw the opening week crowds that they had.

That's a team that everybody feels is a real flight risk. They're already trying to sell it. They're worth a shitload more in Seattle or Vegas. Like that's just a fact. And then you have the Zion piece. And I do wonder as the next couple of weeks pass, are there teams that are going to think we can maybe get this guy? Maybe we trade for this guy right now. We throw a bunch of assets at this team. And if you're

New Orleans and you're going, well, we're moving anyway, if that's how it's actually going to play out, maybe we should really think about cashing in. They know, they know this guy's body and health better than anybody. You know, they're there every day. And maybe that's when we talk about like, what are the monster trades out there. Could it be Dame? Could it be Beal? Maybe Zion should be included in those. I don't know. What do you think of that?

First of all, I didn't see the crowds there because there was no crowd there. He's going to take the money bill because look at the way that the league is trending. You sign the contract and you say, I don't want to be here five minutes after you sign it. So that's something maybe in the next CBA, there's going to have to be massive movement on because then I saw Barkley ripping into this the other day. It's like with Ben Simmons and with Anthony Davis, you sign James

Harden, you sign and then there's extended period of time. So of course, he's going to take the money and then he's just going to throw a fit if he doesn't like it down there and he'll move. I mean, that takes some balls to trade him if you think that he can be what we anticipate he could be. Like you mentioned, 27 points per game on 61% shooting last year at the age of 20. I don't think anybody ever did that. I think McHale was like the guy that was the closest over 26 and 87 when he was fourth in MVP and shot like over 60%. Nobody else did it. That's McHale at his apex. And this is Zion

doing it at the age of 20. You've got to get a slew back for him. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I guess if you definitely think he's leaving, you do that with David Griffin. But does David Griffin want his name attached to that? If you're David Griffin, regardless of whether

it's the right move or not, do you want your name attached? And, right? Like if you're David Griffin, do you want, regardless of whether it's the right move or not, do you want your name attached to that? And that's why it won't happen. But I think for the first time, there's probably some teams out there wondering what is the godfather package we could offer New Orleans? Is this a team that's ready to panic? I wouldn't trade them.

Just based on that three-month stretch we saw last year, unless you're getting one of the other elite, elite, elite guys has to be the centerpiece of it. That's it. That's the only way I'm even listening. I used to like reading those trade columns you would do. Where would you put them? Yeah.

Where would you put them? How high? And I know that's a question where maybe you've got to think about it a little bit more, but is it like, is it top five? Is it top 10, top 15? Like where would you kind of put it? That's a good question to head us into the break.

I'm going to answer that right after this break. You asked me where I would put Zion if I had a trade value call. So if it was like last February, March range, I think he had, he would have had to, there would have been Luka and Giannis, a couple other of the stars, and Zion somewhere in like that top six range.

Now, if you're doing the exercise of which team says no, which team says no faster, stuff like that, Memphis is saying no for Ja, right? Yeah. I think the Celtics have a meeting if they call about Tatum. I think you have to.

I think you have to have the meeting and at least put everybody in the room and talk about the upside downside of Zion. He's a rookie contract. But I don't know. I don't know if they would trade healthy Tatum, who's been incredibly durable and who still seems to be getting better, although I didn't love his I don't know if they would trade healthy Tatum, who's been incredibly durable and who still seems to be getting better. Although I didn't love his opening night. Last

night was better. But would you entertain Tatum for Zion, who's had three surgeries already? I don't know. That's where the trade value thing, he'd be one of the hardest trade value guys, I think, to figure out. I hate injuries on young players. Now the counter is Embiid had a bunch of them and now he seems relatively durable. He's a top eight guy. So that would be the best case scenario. But where would you have him? Well, yeah, that's a good question.

The Tatum one's a good question because again, it depends on like, if like if he puts a Laker jersey on again, I know he's done that like seven times since he's been with the Celtics. If he does it one more time, then maybe I'm going, all right, like clearly this guy wants out.

Like let's do it and pull the trigger on it. He drove me nuts. Like his Eddie, Eddie Johnson, who I host with on SiriusXM, he doesn't think Tatum and Brown can play together. So he's been going nuts on that for years. He doesn't think that it's a fit side by side. I don't know how you think about that, but he won't let me win that battle. I think they can play together.

We had a rough show the day after game one because they didn't look like they could play together. And Tatum's taking 30 shots when the hot hand is Jalen Brown, and maybe he should have been taking more shots. So I guess how you view that dynamic, do you think those two guys can play together? And do you think that Tatum is a flight risk in and of himself? I don't think he's a flight risk.

I have had those same thoughts about Tatum and Brown together in both ways, right? They've had a ton of success together too, which I think has kind of got swept under the rug. They did make the conference finals together as the two best guys on a team two years ago. So it's

not like you can say they can't play together. That's because they can. The question is, if Jalen keeps getting better, does it make sense to have those two guys as your best two guys? What is, what's the model for the teams that have actually won titles? What is the model?

Like the Clippers basically try to do the same thing with Kawhi and PG, who are like the older, more experienced versions of Tatum and Brown. And what happened to them in the playoffs? They first year upset, second year Kawhi gets hurt, and they end up going down. So I don't know. I've heard Eddie make that.

Eddie drives me crazy. I'm glad you're there as my proxy to argue with Eddie because he's just like, oh, these guys can't play together. It's like they've been in three conference finals together. What are you talking about? That's exactly what I'm screaming at him all the time. We can't. He drives you crazy. I deal with him three hours a day. We don't text off

the air anymore. That part of the relationship is done. We no longer are on Twitter together because it makes it full book like infants. We don't communicate back and forth on Twitter because the fights just get into name-calling. It's family members. Yes, I think they can play together.

The reason is the same thing you cited. They've been to three conference finals at this age together. They can clearly play together. Here's the thing that needs to be mentioned with Zion. Dallas isn't trading Luka for him. Atlanta's not trading Trae Young for him.

Memphis isn't trading John Morant for him. Boston, Tatum, they're having meetings, but I think ultimately Tatum's a safer bet. Now we're into like, oh, Donovan Mitchell. Utah's not trading Donovan Mitchell for him. So those are five younger

guys, younger stars slash superstars, right? You don't think that Utah would go with Donovan Mitchell. Utah's not trading Donovan Mitchell for him. So those are five younger guys, younger stars slash superstars, right? You don't think that Utah would go with Donovan Mitchell, especially if there's talk of him and Rudy Gobert the last couple of years. Plus, I think Zion's a better player than Tatum, and I think Tatum's a lot better than Donovan Mitchell. So you wouldn't do Donovan Mitchell for Zion. I personally...

Now we're doing old school sports radio. I'm trying to put myself in Utah's shoes. I personally would. I don't think Utah would. I think they think Mitchell's like Dwayne Wade. And they might be right for all we've seen. They've had playoff success with them already. So I don't know. This has gotten two sports radio, even though I love it. But I think those are the five guys.

And then Devin Booker's another one. On paper, yeah, they should trade Devin Booker for Zion. But would Phoenix do that at the point of the season and the arc and chasing the title that they're at? I have no idea. Anyway, can we go to a topic, two topics I really want to hit with you. One is OKC's rebuilding plan. You and I seem to be the only two that were annoyed by this, that Presti. I put myself in the Shea Gilgis Alexander shoes where I'm this young guy.

I'm looking around. I see John Morant. I see Mitchell. I see Trey Young. Maybe I'm not quite as good at these guys, but I'm an irrational confidence guy. I believe I should be in the conversation with those guys, even if maybe nobody else does.

But I want opportunities like that. And now they have sentenced me to this five-year rebuilding plan with these goofy lottery picks who may or may not make it, like Josh Giddey, who seems okay. Poku, who wasn't lottery, but is the high ceiling, low basement kind of guy. And it's just this island of misfit, either picks and future picks and all these things. And then they give Shea the contract or be patient.

That team's going to win like 10 games this year. So what do you tell Shea? If you're Shea's agent, what do you tell him? Take the money. We'll figure it out. But by the way, you're probably going to be on a 10 win team the next two years. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, again, nobody's turned down that money because people like I brought that up the other day and it was like, well, he chose to sign the con. Of course, he's going to sign the contract. It's like changing money. He can't get it anywhere else. He's taking the money. That's one. And then secondly, I agree with you from this person. Like you saw what Jha did the other night, right? Again, maybe he's not Jha Morant, but he's in Los Angeles. He gets to play the Lakers in a big game, put on a performance like that. One, it enhances his brand, which is so important now. And then two, it gives him the experience. So three, four years down the line, he knows, hey, I've been in big games before. I can build off of that. Same thing for LaMelo Ball. LaMelo Ball's entering the league now.

And you saw last night, he's playing an overtime game against the Boston Celtics, which a lot of people have interest in. That's a big game. And that's something that's going to help their growth moving forward. Now Shea Gildas Alexander, okay, I'm going to deal with this for three years, where showing up is tedious because we got no shot. And then once we are good, I don't have the experience to fall back on on what it feels like to play in big moments. I feel like Presti is almost doing a bit at this point

where, you know, it didn't work out. He never was able to bring them a title. I think they were, his lottery pick track record is really great. They took the Westbrook thing as far as they could take it and then made incredible trade.

He made an incredible Paul George trade. And then to extricate himself from the Westbrook-George thing, which just wasn't working. That was first round, second round out for the next five years. He's able to get rid of both guys and get this shitload of picks back. But now it's like, alright, so

where it falls apart for me is when they trade. They basically do this Ponzi scheme thing that starts out with the Stephen Adams contract. They get a number one back and they get, I think it was George Hill. Now you flip that, you get Horford back.

Now you flip that into Kemba and it's like, yeah, we're flipping these salaries of these guys that then they're not going to play for us. So they're going to take the year off. And then we're going to get a lottery pick out of it. So then they flip Horford for Kemba in the 16th pick. And then they flip the 16th pick into two other picks. And meanwhile, Shangoon, who I think is going to be good, was there at 16.

And it's just like, what's going on here? Is this a Ponzi scheme or you're trying to build a basketball team? It's like, you're just trying to impress NBA writers on Twitter. They have 30 first round picks. Are you going to use them? Exactly. It's like, who are you? What's the goal here?

And you're right with the NBA writers. I saw some poll on ESPN the other day where they ranked the top executives in the sport and don't even get started on Miami. I know Pat Riley knows what he's doing, but it you know listen david khan did build the winner in miami everybody wants to go down there the point is is that presley got the was the fifth best gm like what's the point of the the sport is it to collect draft picks or to collect championship trophies uh and it just seems like, are you telling me right now, like Danny Ainge before he left, couldn't have traded Tatum and Brown and Kyrie before that

and Gordon Hayward maybe before that, Robert Williams, and collected 75 first round picks and then said, well, you can't put any pressure on me. Like I'm rebuilding. And how does like Danny Ainge and Daryl Morey, who first of all, Danny Ainge actually has a championship ring, has been to two finals, then rebuilt without losing on purpose, got back to three conference finals. Daryl Morey's been to a couple of conference finals, if not for a crisp ball but Sam Presti is hitting reset, embarrassing the league, by the way, which tried to put an end to this a couple of years ago.

Apparently the rules don't pertain to Sam Presti. He can do whatever he wants. But the other 29 teams have to compete. But why is he getting praised for not getting anywhere close to winning? Danny H wins a championship. Daryl Morey every single year is putting out a competitive product, and those guys are getting criticized for maybe doing stuff around the edges

incorrectly and Preston's just going oh, I can't be held accountable. Yeah, it's this weird stage that we've entered with sports where sports has gotten so much more sophisticated to follow and I think we're all smarter about how to build champions, what stats matter,

what's a real asset. Like I think about like in the seventies, they were, there'd be these trades in the NBA where like Denver, who had a really good team, they had David Thompson before he fell apart with drugs. They had Dan Issel, who we arguably could have made the top 75 list. And then Bobby Jones, who was now is in the hall of fame Fame and was kind of the best glue guy, best defensive forward of that era. Just an awesome guy to have on your team. And then they traded him for George McGinnis,

who was like, oh, he scores a lot of points. You basically just look at a basketball magazine. George McGinnis is good. He averaged 24 a game. And there was no concept of anything. And Philly, that was a steal. Great trade for them. Those type of trades don't happen anymore. Everybody is more sophisticated with all this stuff. At the same time, it feels like we've swung a tad too far with the asset stuff. And it seems like people love this stuff because

they understand math. They understand assets. Like they understand this is how, and at some point I still feel like it's dangerous to teach a young team that losing is okay. Here's an example, Ben fucking Simmons. Exactly. Well,

did it work out well for him with LSU and that, that, that first six or season? Like, you know, when you have that culture of it's okay to lose, it's all going to head down the right road someday, what's your impetus to get better? How do you learn anything? Okaford, New Orleans Noel,

Ben Simmons. And the problem is you're not bringing any veterans. Carter Williams? Michael Carter Williams. Guys that probably could have went elsewhere and fit into the fabric of a team and, you know, maybe not been superstars, but had long NBA careers where they were sent. Like, I don't know how to be a professional. Like Okafor is getting into all sorts of trouble. Like, I think he got into a fight in Boston at one point. I think he got caught on the Ben Franklin Bridge in Philadelphia. There was all sorts of behavior issues because you don't have any veterans around them.

So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely swung to the opposite direction. And I've seen, like, again, like Daryl Morey had a ton of success and Danny Ainge got bit by this too, right? Probably with the Isaiah Thomas thing where it's like, I'm not worried about the feelings of players,

but like, are you telling me as good as maybe the individual talent is, you've got James Harden, Dwight Howard, Ty Lawson, Michael Beasley, and Josh Smith all on the same team. Are you telling me from a personality? It's going to be hard enough with Harden and Dwight. But you're putting those six, five or six guys on the same team with their personality issues and expecting them to, like, gel. It can't just be about the numbers. You got to treat these guys like human beings.

Yeah. I don't like the OKC thing. I know the OKC fans, they're super territorial. I get it. They're going to be mad at me, but look, the whole concept of we're going to take these next three, four years

off and it's going to be worth it is a really big leap to take. And I never felt good with it with the Philly thing either. And then when they got Simmons and Embiid and they were good together and the Philly fans were like, see, see, that was worth it. It was like, was it? You just lost five years. I don't know if it was worth it.

You haven't got out of the second round yet. Now, I think Sam Preston can draft better than what they did in real assets because they screw it up at every turn, right? Whether it's like New Orleans, Noel, Okafor, and Dembeat all playing the same position. It's the Zyger Smith thing a couple of years ago with like Mikael Bridges, you know,

Jimmy Butler trading assets and they're not keeping them. Like, I think he'll do a better job in that regard. But like, what's the goal for Sam Pressley? Are you bringing all these guys in? The goal isn't to draft them. Like, the goal is to actually win games with them. So are you going to do that? Or is it going to be a situation where like,

all right, we got all this great individual talent. Now I'm just going to let half the guys walk away. What's the end goal? Yeah. So here's the problem with the process, which on paper is great. And I think it was smart. It was smart to zag.

I remember writing a million times, you want to bottom out. You don't want to be in the middle. The problem and why you can't say this is the way to do it is you still have to hit the picks. And it's really hard to draft. You know, you think like Markel Fultz, we all thought was the number one pick in the draft. And they just missed it on Tatum. Had they taken Tatum in that spot, Tatum, Simmons, and Bede,

maybe we're having a different conversation about the process, but that's the point. It's still a coin flip with some of these picks. We see it every year at the draft. It's a fucking crapshoot. You don't know. You don't know. Like they took Giddy with the sixth pick. Should they have taken Davian Mitchell? Yeah. If you watch first four games, yes. Five years from now, Giddy might've been an awesome pick. I don't fucking know. Yeah, like, so if you're Miami and you're going to make free, you can't miss on free agents, right? Because that's what they have to know. They have to know free agents. That's how they're going to

build their team. So they can't, and a couple of years ago, they signed like Dion Waiters, they signed Whiteside, but you can't do that if you're Miami. You have to know your free agents because that's how you're choosing to build. So if you're Philadelphia, okay, you can do that, but then you can't, like, you have to know the draft better than anybody else in the league. You have to make sure you hit every single time. And that's what Presti's got to do now. And again,

like he's shown a better track record maybe than Philadelphia at making draft picks. But even with him, and I would take a lot of heat for this, like, are you giving him credit? I'll just ask you. And some people fire back. Some people agree. Like, are you giving him credit? I'll just ask you. And some people fire back. Some people agree. Are you giving him credit for KD? Okay. That was an obvious pick. I would give him credit if you took him number one overall. Westbrook and Harden, he gets credit. And I think Abaka. Those are great picks. Exactly. So I give him credit for Westbrook, definitely for Abaka as well, without question. I give him half credit for Harden because yes, he did draft him. He didn't necessarily have to do that third. But I think it's pretty well known out there that he was taking Ashim to beat. And that was kind of backed up a couple of years later when he signed him as a free agent

or got him by a trade. But he was going to take Ashim to beat. Memphis took him number two, and then he ended up with Harden. So even there, I'm hesitant. But the KD one, which is all predicated on, that entire organization is predicated on, the Durant draft pick. And that was an obvious one. I'm not against the process.

I'm not against what OKC is doing. I'm against the celebration of it. I think it's a strategy. I respect it. There's thought put into it. I understand it. But I don't think it should be a big jerk circle because OKC is going to go 9-73

and Sam Preston is a genius. And meanwhile, SGA now has lost the second year of his career. Yeah. So my issue is one is don't don't give Preston credit for it. Like, all right, so they're going to do it, but don't treat that like it's some type of accomplishment. Any team in the league could sell off like really good players now and get all these picks I mentioned earlier. And then secondly, like, OK, yes, it might be the best way to win in that environment, like Oklahoma City, a small market. But if we push that aside, where's the NBA on this? After a couple of years ago, we went great, like we were moved hinky. We came out and

we said, all right, we're changing the lottery. We're legislating anti, like the commissioner's asking you, do not do this. Well, 29 teams appear to have come out and at least said, we're going to listen to the commissioner. We'll do what's best for the game. And Oklahoma City hasn't. And maybe you want to say,

Orlando has given away a year or so. Okay, that's one year. 12 years. Exactly. This seems like Oklahoma City's going to do this for five, a decade. Yeah. Well, at least the lottery rules,

it's a little harder to succeed in the top five than it was as they found out last year. Before we go, you, you like to tweak though. LeBron's like Beyonce. We, none of us are allowed to make fun of him anymore.

He has a whole army of fans that come back, but then he says stuff like the Carmelo Anthony quote the other day, where it's like, I don't know where all you guys were, whatever he said. I don't know where you were, but he was sitting there and it's like, you're the GM of every team you bet on. If you thought Carmelo Anthony deserved a chance, why wasn't he on one of your teams the last three years? It's stuff like that happens. You're just like, all right, is there any accountability at all for some of this stuff? Can we just ask the question, like the follow-up? I can't tell, and I've been doing this for years. I can't tell if I'm upset with LeBron or I'm upset with the way he is covered. I'm the upset with the way he was covered. I am not upset with LeBron.

I think he's covered in one of the most bizarre ways I think I've ever seen following sports. Yeah. It's like, hey, why didn't you give mellow a shot? Then you're saying everybody else, what about you? Uh, you know, you're saying this like wash King thing. Okay. Who with any legitimate platform is saying wash King? Uh, I certainly haven't heard it. Maybe you can point me in the direction of like the podcast or the television

show or the radio show. I haven't heard it. So like, how about just like a follow-up question like that? Or like he says, I should have multiple MVPs. Okay, LeBron, like which ones should you have won that we didn't, you know, somehow give you? It's like, we'll allow you to play. And it's not even just on like basketball. There's all sorts of issues he brings up. It's like, okay, fair point, but we're not just here to be your platform. We're not your PR. Let's ask a follow-up question that challenges his point of view in some way or another. Yeah. And I'm sorry, but he's not one of the four best players in the league anymore. I watch basketball every night. I don't think he is. Now, he's had a way of where he dips a little to start the season and then has a surge, but he's in year 19. I think what he's

doing at the age he's at with the miles that he has on his body is one of the most incredible things I've ever seen in any sport. He's still in the conversation in his 19th year with all of these guys who are at their absolute peaks, primes, apexes. That alone is like, that's a compliment. That's not an insult. Do I think he could do what Giannis does night after night as a two-way player and as a dominant force? No, I don't. Sorry. I'm not insulting you. Yeah. And if you want to say like in a one-off situation, I'm heading into the NBA finals. Do I want LeBron? Do I want Giannis? Do I want KD? Do I want Steph? I think that's a good conversation. But yeah, over the course of an

entire season, do I think LeBron's the best? No, I don't think he can do it every single one. I think our top four is somewhat aligned with Giannis, KD, Jokic, Curry, and then Luka in the waiting room. I want to see it.

Can you at least have a 50-plus win team as the best player on it, regardless of who your guys are. So we'll see. All right. Say hi to Eddie for me. It was good to see you. I'm glad we got to talk about some of this stuff.

I'm going to lead off the show today with how I came on and he, he did not. So we're going to spend a good 10 to 15 minutes about his material. It's not good enough to get on the Bill Simmons podcast. Yeah. Thanks. Tell him I'm team termini. All right. Good to see you. Most people are with a brain. to 15 minutes about his material is not good enough to get on the Bill Simmons podcast. Yeah. Thanks, man. Tell him I'm Team Termini.

All right. Good to see you. Most people are with a brain. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Bob Ryan. Thanks to Justin Termini. Thanks to Kyle Creighton, who produced this podcast. We are coming back on Thursday with a million dollar picks and some hoops and a whole bunch more.

See that. On the wayside On the first sun I never lost And I don't have to ever forget