The Bill Simmons Podcast - Katie Nolan and NBA Summer Check-in With Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 413)

Episode Date: September 12, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor for a quick NBA offseason check-in. They discuss Carmelo on the Rockets, Luka Doncic's weight gain, Devin Booker's broken hand, Finals odds, and more (2:25). Then Bill sits down with Katie Nolan to talk about her new home at ESPN; her new show, 'Always Late With Katie Nolan'; the NFL, wearing makeup for TV, and more (1:07:10). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? Betting against the Celtics this year. They're going to be really good. You know what else is a smart? Job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. Luckily, there's a smart way at ziprecruiter.com slash BS rated number one by employers in the US based on trust pilot rating of hiring sites with at least 1000 reviews. Right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, SeatGeek, you've heard me say this

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We did it. It happened. Me and Sean Fantasy, we'd been waiting to do this one for a long time. It's up. People seem to have enjoyed it. Go listen to it. I went to Matt Damon's house this week

and we taped a long podcast, partly about Rounders. It was inspired by that. We have a lot of good podcasts in the bank right now. We might have to have a four-podcast week. Hopefully, you can keep up with this stuff. It's just, this is my kind of year. September, October, November, December.

Pop culture and basketball and football. I'm just super happy right now. Check out theringer.com. Check out theringer.com slash shop. If you're jealous of the hats and the t-shirts that we wear every once in a while. Coming up, Kevin O'Connor and I are going to recap the post free agency summer in the NBA. And then my old friend Katie Nolan is on to discuss her new show on ESPN and a whole bunch of other stuff. We haven't talked to her in two and a half years. So good to catch up with her. That's all coming up right now. First, Pearl Jam.

All right, Katie Nolan coming up in a little bit right now. K-O-F-N-C. What's up, Bill? How you doing? Fresh from vacation. We didn't know if we'd see you again. We thought you were just going to be gone. I'm back. I'm happy to have the time off.

It was good to refresh my mind, but I'm here. I'm happy to be back. That's right. It's a grueling NBA season these days. It goes 10 and a half months. You almost need a sabbatical after it's over. Some years now, it's a 12-month sport. Last year with the Kyrie trade going into deep August

with the Isaiah Thomas injury drama, this year was a little bit slower because we got Kawhi done early. We want to do a summer check-in. So we have, I think the last time I really talked about NBA was Russo and I did like a giant kind of post-free agency. Here's where everything moved. But then some other pieces shake afterwards. Nothing major, but because we don't have a lot to talk about.

Like I felt like Carmelo going to Houston was completely overcovered, including by us, but there wasn't a lot going on. So we might as well start there. Carmelo to Houston. Am I wrong thinking that there's a bigger chance that he gets bought out in March or thrown into a late February deal than there is that he would actually help them

and play crunch time for them? Yeah, I think you're wrong about that. I think the Carmelo backlash has been maybe a little bit overblown. I mean, granted, last summer the talk was with Oklahoma City, he can become Team USA Melo. We saw that he just sucked at it he wasn't good last season no but it's a new situation in Houston I'd be curious

about seeing him obviously in that spot-up role when he's sharing the floor with Harden and Paul but also when just one of those guys is on the floor how does Carmelo operate when he has that spacing when you're putting a six foot nine guy through pick and roll i think for houston it adds a little bit of diversity to their offense yeah it's a different look that they can throw at opponents instead of just relying on all cp all harden all eric gordon guard size players now you have carmelo who can be a new wrinkle for that team and i'd be interested to see how d'antoni uses him and the other thing bill is that a lot of talk about obviously losing trevor trevor ariza that's tough for them yes but they've added some interesting players you know marquis chris james ennis michael carter williams runo cabocla and vince edwards a

rookie in addition to carmelo anthony all those guys are going to make a combine about five million dollars less than trevor ariza so a Ariza's the best of those bunch defensively, the most proven, but maybe one of those guys elevates their play in a new system with Houston. Can I give you my counter? Yes. Carmelo's washed. We had a whole song about that on the ringer.

He's washed. It's over. He very well might be, but for the money... I was trying to find my iPad, which I think I forgot to bring, but I was looking at his stats year by year, like the last four or five. Basketball reference just does not lie. When there's a certain decline that goes in place for multiple years, it doesn't come back. And I remember the first time I really thought about this,

I was working on my book and I think it was right around Jermaine O'Neal got traded for maybe Sean Marion, something like that. And people were trying to be like, well, Sean Marion, Jermaine O'Neal, new team. We could be. And I was like, Jermaine O'Neal's done. Like his stats are going the wrong way for a reason. We never really see it bounce back once it hits a certain point. And for him, he's like 50% less productive than he used to be. You know what? That could be true. But for $1.6 million, that's like a very insignificant gamble for the Houston Rockets.

A guy who can still have high output scoring games. A guy who can still pop for you, right? I mean, he can get hot as a shooter. You say it's insignificant, but he's a former superstar with a huge ego who has not shown that he can just be happy being the ninth man on a team. And that could very

well be the possibility. But again, only like $1.6 billion for the Houston Rockets. For a guy who, like, yeah, he's, I mean, like you said with the numbers, he has declined every year. So where was he on the Knicks 2013? He was like 27 he on the next 2013 he was like 27 a game yeah he was in 2012 13 he averaged 28.7 points per game that's 27.4 24.2 21.8 22.4 and 16.2 and granted that's just a big stink to climb.

11, 9.6, 8.7, 8.2, 7.2, 3.8. That was 3.8 last year. That's per 100 possessions. So that's the thing for me, and that's why I think he's washed. And apologies, Carmelo. I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but his whole game was like it was a combination of he could spot up, shoot, pull up jumper, some threes,

especially like on the glory years of the Knicks that he had. He was a really good three-point shooter. But he got to the line. And especially he got to the line in fourth quarters and in big moments. Like he could figure out in traffic how to bounce off people and he'd either score or get to the line. I don't think he can do that anymore. And I also don't think he

was always kind of an okay rebounder. He was like at seven a game. He was not a liability, but not great. And the rebounding went way down too and he's basically just a guy who stands there. My thing is he doesn't need to be that anymore. That's why he's on the Rockets for the amount of money that he is.

I agree with your arch enemy, Chris Vernon, because I heard a great argument with you guys. I think right before you went to vacation, he's like, from that position, they need somebody who did the stuff Trevor Ariza did, whether it's as good as him or less good than him, whatever.

But all they need is defense and threes. They don't need somebody who's like, alright guys, I got this, because they already have two playmakers. Is James Ennis the Trevor Ariza replacement and Carmelo's the Ryan Anderson replacement? I think James Ennis is going to have to be. That's my point, right? Anderson

didn't play. They sat him because... So anyway, I think this is a good argument. Carmelo still has scoring ability off the dribble. I mean, maybe you're not going to go to him. Maybe you're not going to need him. But did we see it last year? Not a lot.

Where was it last year? My thing is, we had a whole year where he was actually in a pretty good situation in some ways, in a terrible situation in other ways. But if he'd thrown the ball, he'd be open. But last year he was making $26 million. This year he's making $1.6 million. The money matters a lot. This is my argument with Chrisris vernon about dwight howard it's like yeah he underperformed because

he's making over 20 million dollars the past x amount of years this year he's making 5.3 right it's like it's like it's a dwight howard the ebola virus yes the dwight that's white howard yeah me and chris got into it on tuesday's about that. But I mean, the money matters for the team. I think you're a young guy and you're glass half full optimistic. Maybe. Chris and I, we've had some kids. We've seen it all. We're just a little more negative.

We're a little more glass half empty. I look at Dwight Howard and there was like this 20 second span when it seemed like the Celtics might be interested. I was freaking out. I think if that guy's on your team, you might as well like bring in, what was that thing that happened on the Dubai plane? When everybody was throwing up on the plane? Brad Stevens has made like Jordan Crawford look good. He's made every player look better.

There's something about Dwight that he manages to turn off like 35 people at the same time. Yeah. I mean, look. The big picture fundamental thing for me with Houston is I just don't think they're as good. And I really honestly think they missed their window. Last year it lined up perfectly for them in so many ways. They were so hungry. I really liked their team. I liked how their team matched up against the Warriors.

I think they were catching the Warriors at a really nice time. Curry's still a little banged up. Team's a little flat. They'd gone through all these finals. They didn't really have that new energy. And now this year, I think the Rockets are worse. The Boogie thing's a great X factor. I was really interested in what Curry said on my podcast with him. He admitted they were a little stale last year because they just brought everyone back. Now you have Boogie, and it's like this new character on the TV show. And I think they missed their window.

They probably did. They probably did. They went seven games last year, won 65 games. They had— 65 games. They pretty much played as incredibly as they could have, right, with preseason projections. Some people loved them. Some people hated them. They pretty much did everything incredibly as they could have, right? With preseason projections, some people loved them,

some people hated them. They pretty much did everything they could until that game seven where they had that 0 for 20-ish stretch from three. And the Chris Paul injury, of course. And I've heard the argument, well, Chris Paul missed 20 games. And I was like, you guys were healthy in March, April, May, and June. Isn't Chris Paul pretty much a given for between 50 to 65 games? That's like you're happy with that.

Right, but they were healthy at the right time. They were healthy for three, three and a half months. Isn't Chris Paul pretty much a given for between 50 to 65 games? That's like you're happy with that. Right. But they were healthy at the right time. They were healthy for three, three and a half months. No dying, though, worse. We haven't even mentioned Bob Moutet, who they lost. Right. Trevor, it's not just Trevor Reason. Oh, that's true.

You're right. You're right. They did not have Bob Moutet in the playoffs. So they weren't 100% healthy. Yeah. But now they're going to lose him for the full season. But the Warriors didn't have Iggy, though. So it feels like that probably evens out, right?

They're worse on paper. They are. I don't think there's any denying that, but I'm not quite ready to call them losers of the offseason. I'm not either. I just think it was the natural outcome of what was going to happen to that team. For one year, we were able to stack it with Chris Paul and Harden and all these supporting

pieces they lucked out with pj tucker they got him at a great contract and it was awesome and then ariza had to be paid suddenly you can't get the the gift of ariza at whatever price he was at phoenix comes in and overpays them trevor ariza was once an overlooked free agent signing too yeah with houston so maybe maybe that's new James Ennis, or maybe history doesn't repeat itself. But I think we... James Ennis is the X factor for me because when they signed him,

I was like, oh, good one. Like that's somebody that had, we've never really seen him in good April, May basketball, but seems like he has the credentials. He's like pops on, you know, from Memphis, right? You know, for these like league pass NBA addicts who watch like, oh, James Ennis like he has the credentials. It's like he occasionally pops on, you know, from Memphis, right? Yeah. You know, for these like league pass NBA addicts who watch

like, oh, James Ennis, he's pretty good. Yeah, he's good. The other guy like that that New Orleans just tried to sign was Wallace of the Clippers. And I don't know, did the Clippers match that? Yeah, they matched. Yeah. See, that's why I like, I would never overpay for backup point guards.

I feel like every year there's three Walses out there that you can just kind of snatch Wallace is interesting I mean he reminds me of like a

like a worse or younger version of Will Barton that type of player yeah he's you know does it all good defensively yeah I like him a lot

who other than Atlanta who who have you already mentally crossed off like crossed off the playoff list? Just you're not even like, they're not even on your league pass radar or anything. Oh, I mean, so I wouldn't cross off Sacramento because they have intriguing players.

The Giles Summer League thing was really fun and a good wrinkle. You want to see De'Aaron Fox in year two. You want to see how Marvin Bagley, you know, develops over the course of his rookie season. Hawks, are you really crossing them off, though? I mean, don't you want to watch Trey Young? Not really. Really? He was like your favorite player ever last year, though. He was. I just...

Trey can be fun or a disaster, and disasters can be fun to watch. It's a bad situation. I don't like when rookies are in bad situations. It was like when Tatum was on the pod a couple weeks ago talking about how he was probably in one of the greatest situations of all time for a rookie. Oh, no doubt. You'd go with like James Worthy on the Lakers in 1982 and like McHale coming into the side.

Like very rarely does the right player come on the right team and be. And Trae Young is like the opposite of that. He's going to develop a shitload of bad habits. He's just going to be jacking up shots. He's going to develop a shitload of bad habits. He's just going to be jacking up shots. He's going to make a ton of turnovers. Their expectations combined with Doncic, which is the next summer storyline I want to talk to.

Doncic gained weight? What was going on there? There was some... Maybe let himself go a tiny bit? There were some whispers over the course of the summer that maybe himself go a tiny bit. There were some... There were some whispers. Over the course of the summer that maybe he gained a little bit of weight

over the offseason. I wouldn't read into it too much. I mean, he just played like a 90-game schedule over like a roughly a calendar year. I'm going to overreact. I have a lot at stake with this trade. I went all in. It's just going immediately.

This is one of the big disasters of the decade. Early August rumblings. So it's the type of thing where is one of the big disasters of the decade. This is like early August rumblings. So it's the type of thing where if he's in shape by late September, by mid-October when the season actually gets going, that's what matters. I mean, he just played a long, long stretch of games. But that's what worries me. He stopped exercising and then put on weight?

I mean, you need to rest your body. I mean, give him a break. Is he at the dark room with Biffy Kyle? Hope he's not at the dark room with Biffy Kyle? Hope he's not at the dark room. Yeah, if he's at the dark room, we've got to be really concerned. Has Luca been at the dark room, Kyle? Stay away from Luca Doncic. I haven't seen him.

I haven't seen him. Kyle, you're not allowed to hang out with him. I'll let the staff know not to let him in. We have too much at stake with him. We'll get a picture of him right in the main pillar. Yeah, we'll put it right on the pillar, right next to the Bill Simmons sticker. So we're okay with, we're not worried about that? I wouldn't worry too much.

But, I mean, it was kind of a minor conversation before the draft, and then it's like, oh, well, it would have been nice if in August he's in the best shape of his life. Devin Booker's broken hand? Ugh, that sucks. My rule with NBA, when two guys get in a fight, it's always poker or women. Cards or women, I should say.

And if there's a third possible reason, then it's going to come out in the actual fight. Otherwise, I'm just assuming cards or women. When an NBA player breaks their hand, I just, red flags go shooting out of my body. It's, first of all, really hard to break your hand. Second of all, if you punch somebody when breaking your hand,

they're going to try to cover it up as long as possible. Or you did it doing something completely stupid. There was that Instagram video of him. Yes, riding a bike. Seemed like on a unicycle or a bicycle. I don't know.

He was riding with no hands on the handlebars though. And then broke his hand two hours later. And now, so now they're saying, no, no, he hurt it in a pickup game and it's been swelling.

Really hard to do that in a pickup game. I'm just going to, as somebody who played basketball for most of my life, there's really only one situation. We can't jump as high as Devin Booker does though. Fall's not as hard. Yeah, but if you're going to fall,

you hurt your wrist, not your hand. So really the only way you can do it. You can do it back to last season, though, to be fair. Maybe it was something that had an issue already. Don't defend the Suns, Kevin. I mean, I know. Don't help them cover this up. This is like Chappaquiddick.

Remember when Rondo broke his hand falling out of the shower? That was a true story, right? Was that? I forget. Never really believed that one either. That was just an excuse. It's hard to break your hand. You really have to hit something at a high velocity.

It's going to fall at the side, the fifth metatarsal in the hand, whatever they're proper. So we've seen guys break their finger, break their thumb. If you're breaking your hand, there's impact. And the one way we've seen it is if somebody's like, they're going up for a rebound or something, they're swinging their hand out and's impact. And the one way we've seen it is if somebody's like, they're going up for a rebound or something,

they're swinging their hand out and they just hit somebody in the head. And their hand, they have no strength weight behind it. And it just kind of free falls into somebody's head. Other than that, you basically have to punch something or fall off a unicycle. Is that your conspiracy that he punched something? He might have punched somebody in a pickup game. Definitely could have. Who knows? My spidey senses are going off, KFC.

I've been around a long time. I'm old. There's a video of him on a bike. This video on a bike right before he broke his hand? And he's holding the phone with the hand. I don't know if the camera was off. He might have been holding the phone with his left hand. It looked like he was holding with the left. But that means he was probably holding with the left. Nephi Kyle, you know nothing, but you have been holding the phone with his left hand yeah it looked like he was holding with the left or the right but that means he was probably holding nifty kyle you know

nothing but you have a good shit detector with this stuff it doesn't sound right yeah it doesn't sound right koc put it this way something's not right because the fact is the injury went back to last season and yet he's having the surgery at the beginning of september and now it's a six week recovery which could mean that it goes into the season, could miss three games, could miss a couple more if it goes seven weeks instead. If it's really a broken hand, it's going to be more than six weeks. This is one of those things they throw it out. And it's like, it's not going to be six weeks. It takes six weeks to heal. And then he's got to learn how to shoot. It's sore. I just went through this with Aaron Judge in my fantasy league. He got hit by a pitch and it was like, it's a hairline fracture of his wrist.

He'll be back in three weeks. And I'm like, Aaron Judge is 6'7". And when he swings, the bat's going like 180 miles an hour. He's not going to be back in three weeks. It's like week seven, he's not back. And that's what's so bad for the Phoenix Suns, right? Adding Trevor Ariza, it signals they want to be a bit more competitive this year. They're not a playoff team, but make a push, right?

An effort. It seems like they just want to be professional this year. They want to have a professional basketball team. And Devin Booker was a big part of that because with the amount of wings they have, they could space the floor around him, kind of do their own version of what the Rockets do and put Booker in the hard and roll.

And maybe it would fail, maybe it would succeed. I think Booker, there's more to his game than we've already seen. I agree. But now he doesn't have training camp. Now he doesn't have preseason. They need him to be the playmaker because they don't have a point guard. Which I'm trying with. Just try Brandon Knight who I don't know what he has.

But adding Ryan Anderson was interesting for them. Get a floor spacer. Hold that thought. I want to talk about that trade the Devin Booker the second part of this is they gave him this massive extension when they didn't have to which doesn't make a lot of sense to me um other than you're just trying to impress your fans or give them something to be excited about keep him happy or keep him happy but who cares he to be excited about. Or keep him happy. Or keep him happy, but who cares? He's under contract and you can keep him happy a year from now. He can't go anywhere.

Yeah. So Denver did this with Jokic, which I didn't 100% agree with either because the thing is, if the guy can't go, why are you taking care of him early unless there's some sort of cap reason? Like the Covington Philly thing last year was actually, I thought, pretty smart, even though they overpaid. They added the space.

They were able to spread it out, and they knocked down his cap figure for this year. If you're not doing that, why do it? Unless it's like Ben Simmons. Then I get it. If you're scared the dude's why do it? Unless it's like Ben Simmons, then I get it. If you're scared, the dude's going to leave. I would do it. You seem like you do. You have a look on your face like you disagree. I mean, look, Ben spent Devin Booker is not Ben Simmons in terms of having upside to be at the face of the NBA. Ben Simmons has that type of upside if he develops his jump

shot. But Devin Booker at 21 old, averaged nearly 25 points per game. And he's improved his scoring efficiency each season. He's diversified his game each season. He's a zero defensively. He's a zero. We have no evidence whatsoever that he could be the best player in a good team. We have 0% evidence.

But he's a spectacular scorer who has not really had... He did all of it on bad teams. All of it on bad teams. We have no idea what it's like if a good team's actually planning to stop him. We'll see. I mean, he's also been the best guy on a bad team where he has absorbed a lot of the defensive attention. We haven't seen him with...

The flip side of that is we haven't seen him with quality players around him to take the pressure off of him to get him easier looks. And he might have no idea how to make any of those guys better. I'm just being devil's advocate. Oh, for sure. I have no idea if Devin Booker has a chance to be the best guy on a good team, much less a champion. That's what I want to find out. And unfortunately,

we're not going to get to see him in preseason. Why not find out for the next year and then give him the contract? Because now you're locked into this contract with this all offense, no defense guy. I feel pretty good. Because now you're locked into this contract with this all offense, no defense guy. I feel pretty good about Devin Booker

as a basketball player because of what we've seen so far. I remember when you were 10 years old, we did a podcast right after the Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury signings. And you were like,

he's a franchise guy. He's great offensively. I know there hasn't been a lot of team success yet. And I was like, I don't know, KOC. I never liked Steve Francis. I don't know, KOC. I just, I don't like,

I don't like overpaying offense only guards before they've shown me that they can actually lead a team to victories is my only thing. I know they have to pay him at some point. I just can, can you show me one more year? Can I see what you're like as, as the quote unquote guy running the team before I'm giving you $30 million a year?

That cap is unforgiving. Sure. But I think with Devin Booker, here's, here's my thing. Devin Booker is a guy I didn't love him in the draft. I viewed him as like a worse version of a clay Thompson type where like, he's not quite an all time great shooter like clay, but he can do some of those cool things, you know, off the catch off screens for you. But what he's not quite an all-time great shooter like Clay but he can do some of those cool things you know off the catch off screens for you but what he's turned into is a guy who's really good in the pick and roll yeah who can score off the dribble who can pull up who can get to the rim who can draw fouls who can do a lot of different things for you he can score in isolations he can score off screens he can do so much offensively and that's just three years removed from his time at Kentucky when he was essentially

just an off-ball player who ran through screens and spotted up. How did that Kentucky team do? I mean, beside the point though. Not beside the point. What evidence do we have that he's a winning player is my point. I don't think this is baseball where we just throw in like so many young players though.

They get drafted. Good young players get drafted onto the bad teams. I have to pay this guy $30 million a year. Sure. At that point, I need to be positive you're really good. You're not going to not pay Devin Booker though when that time comes. I'd pay him a year from now. Sure.

I wouldn't argue with that. The Marbury-Francis era to me is still the red flag. He's not Marbury or Francis. Marbury was great. Marbury, if we had done if we had done like trade value that I think I might have even done a trade value

that year he was like one of the top 10 guys in the league for like this guy's on his way he's gonna be a franchise guy but there was really no and at least Marbury

made the playoffs he had that run with Amari Stoudemire when they beat San Antonio in one game and like Booker's never done jack shit at the time

and now he just got hurt on a fucking unicycle at the time you know when you had Marbury top 10 in the trade value column were there the character issues at that point work ethic and all that yeah he was young he could get he was the best off the dribble guy in the league which is

what everybody cared about at that point other than Iverson Kobe too so those three He was the best off the dribble guy in the league, which is what everybody cared about at that point, other than Iverson. I had Kobe too. So those three. But he could just get by anybody and get to the basket. But had no idea how to lead a team, was a very strange guy, and eventually it manifested himself.

I'm not saying Booker's a strange guy, but I don't know. I just would like to see more. I think we've seen a lot already. It's weird. We've seen a lot. I think we have. Three years it's just weird like we've seen a lot i think we have three years we've seen a good fantasy fantasy guy jay's a fantastic fantasy player now maybe when they surround him with more quality players he becomes a real good real life i'm not against it i could see it i just can i see it for a year it's fair can you win more than 22 games i think for the franchise,

and Booker had, I might be paraphrasing incorrectly here, but I'm pretty sure Booker had a comment about how he's sick of losing last year. So the case for Booker, other than you just want to,

you're the sons and you're sad and you just want to lock people up. The sad sons. Younger than you think he is, right? Isn't he?

21 years old. He's only 21, so that's great. October 30th. That's a bonus. Fits into the modern NBA, old. He's only 21. So that's great. October 30th. That's a bonus. Um, fits into the modern NBA. Obviously there's no question.

The other players seem to really respect him. So those would be the three things, but I think. From USA pipeline. From what, from the little whispers I've heard, people were surprised the sons did this when they did this. And I think.

The timing's odd. I wouldn't argue that. I just think you do this. If it's somebody who can win the MVP someday. You do it if it's Jason Tatum, Ben Simmons, even Carl Anthony Towns. I can see it. But when we move to the Booker side, he has no leverage anyway. So we'll see. I don't really like – Phoenix, how many times have they picked in the top four now?

They had the Aiton pick, the Josh Jackson pick. Booker, they got booked out. Dragon Bender. They had four and eight? Yeah, that year they traded up from 13 with 27 and Bogdanovich to move up to eight to get Marquis Chris. They had Alex Lenn at five. These had a lot of swings, man.

Yeah, they have. And it's like, yeah, we're building something. It's like, yeah, you're building something because you've had a shitload of lottery picks. They undeniably have

some nice talent, though, on the roster. Are we sure Aiden Missouri pick? I like the pick for them. I think he's a good fit on paper with Devin Booker. Would you rather have

Jaron Jackson Jr.? No. Would you rather have Wendell Carter? No. Okay. I wouldn't move off the pre-drafts evaluation. I like Wendell Carter even more than I did pre-drafts. I had him ranked fifth.

I might bump him up to fourth or he'd be more solid at five. But I wouldn't move Aiton off second behind Luka Doncic. If I was doing a trade value column and I could have DeAndre Aiton at $8 million plus a year or Wendell Carter at $4 million a year, what would you rather have? Aiton because the upside factor. I think with Wendell Carter, he projects

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I agree with you. I'm not anti-Devin Booker. I know there's some terrible sports bloggers, but Simmons hates the Booker contract. I don't. I just think they should have waited a year. Bright side of the suns tomorrow morning. Yeah, is that their blog?

Yeah. I just think they should have waited a year. They should have. I mean, I wouldn't argue that. I just think the timing is less relevant than the player they seem like the most desperate you know every year there's like one or two super desperate

teams they seem like the most desperate this year I did not like the Ryan Anderson trade you didn't I did not how come out of curiosity I don't like when teams help other teams especially contenders. It's one of those,

if you're in a fantasy league and your team, if we're in a fantasy league together and your team sucks every year and I'm always trying to win money and then one of the guys I'm competing against. My fantasy team never sucks, Bill. Well, hypothetically, one of the guys I'm competing against

trades with you and that trade helps them and your team sucks, I get mad. Of course. So this was one of those where like the Rockets had no chance of trading Ryan Anderson this year of using that contract

for anything. But now they get Brandon Aitback who's like 14 something million dollars a year. That contract you can actually trade. You can flip that

for something else. And, you know, in February, if worst case scenario, Atlanta comes to them and is like, all right, here's Bazemore. You take Bazemore, we'll take Brandon Knight back and give us a protected first. The Rockets are better. They didn't have the option to do that with the Ryan Anderson thing.

So then you look at it from the Sun side, it's like, well, Ryan Anderson is going to space the floor for us and be our three-point shooting. It's like, for what? So you could go 35 and 47? What the fuck are you doing? Pretty much. Yeah, to try to improve the winning culture, try to improve their system and create a structure for how they want to build moving forward. Great.

I think, look, Brandon Knight, what has he done in the past two seasons he's a cap figure he's not a player he's a cap figure I'm just talking cap figure only Ryan Anderson is only a cap figure

at this point if he was a player people would have been trading for him you know and also his cap figure did get lowered in the second year

though I think to what was it 15-16 million it got dropped in the second year to a non-guaranteed yeah that seemed illegal NBA has some weird little loopholes.

But Houston didn't care about next year because next year he's an expiring contract, which is fine anyway. If it was bigger, they wouldn't have cared. They cared about this year, and now they're going to be able to get somebody. It was an odd trade. It was an odd trade.

It was just weird. I don't mind it for either side. I think for Houston, you get Brandon Knight, another secondary ball handler who can maybe turn into something resembling what he was in the past. And for Phoenix, maybe Ryan Anderson helps you really create the type of system that you want to build moving forward and lessen the pressure on some of the younger guys

by having a solid veteran on the team alongside Trevor Ariza. We've talked about this long enough. Listen, don't ever... The Phoenix Suns fans are loving it, though. Don't ever return Daryl Morris' phone calls if he's trying to trade with you Listen, don't ever... The Phoenix Suns fans are loving it, though. Don't ever return Daryl Morey's phone calls if he's trying to trade with you. Just don't.

He's targeting whatever the six most desperate teams are every year. Who are the guys you don't answer the phone from? Morey, Ainge? Those two for sure.

If Morey's calling me, I know something's up. I'm just like, what's up, dude? Do you want me to come to a Sloan conference? He's like, no, actually, I thought maybe there's a deal we could make.

I'm like, sorry, man. My owner told me I can't trade with you. Ainge, I'm not even answering. Just have some number blocks. And then he'd have Mike Zarin. He'd have all his son. I'm not answering any Boston calls. Yeah, I'm not doing anything.

Dave Lee went out of the blue. No. Next topic. I actually think the Celtics are... Well, I'll do doing anything. Dave Lee went out of the blue. No. Next topic. I actually think the Celtics are, well, I'll do this quickly because I get too much shit for talking about the Celtics. I actually think they're underrated this year. I think they have like high 60 win potential

with all the talent they have. Of course they do. It's weird. They don't have the highest win total ever under. They're in a bad conference. They're freaking deep as shit. They have the best coach. They probably have

the best three-point shooting lineup other than Golden State. They have the most flexibility. Hayward, just people have forgotten that he's good. It's weird.

It's like he never had a career. He was underrated in Utah. I voted for him for 13-0 NBA two years ago. He was amazing. Talk about a do-it-all player.

And I really don't think there's any chance Philly is going to be better than them in the regular season. I think Toronto is the one team if they can reignite Kawhi somehow, that's their competitor. Philly in the playoffs I think is a competitor. I don't think regular season

Philly is a competitor. If Kawhi turns into Kawhi, the last Kawhi we saw at full health, you know, with some of the other things Toronto did, they could be a team

that pushes for the one seed. But Boston, you know, I'm with you, Bill. It's the truth. Like getting Gordon Hayward back and Kyrie Irving back. And Marcus Smart

and Roger. Marcus Smart and the development of other guys like Tatum and Jalen Brown. They're going to be a fantastic team this year. Their top nine is probably the deepest top nine

I think they've had since going back to the Russell era. It's actually kind of ridiculous. It's fucking ridiculous. Having Rozier as your fourth guard is crazy because he would be starting for 10 teams. And next year he probably will be. And Phoenix was trying to trade for him. That finally came out. But we had been hearing about that for 10 teams. And next year he probably will be. And Phoenix was trying to trade for him. That finally came out.

But we had been hearing about that for a while. When Milwaukee made the Eric Bledsoe trade last year, I had heard they also inquired about Rozier at the time last year. So no matter where Rozier goes next year, odds are he could be starting for somebody if it's not with the Celtics, of course. When do you think OKC is going to start their off-the-ball drills with Westbrook to learn how to kind of move two or three feet left or right

when somebody else has the ball? Hopefully day one. Hopefully day one. That would be fantastic. I've been on this for a couple years now. Like just desperately hoping, Bill. Desperately. Just move a little.

I think, Russ, we saw glimmers of it in the past with kd yeah russ cuts you know he's he's so explosive he can dunk over anybody he's a smart player yeah he's been proved as a spot-up shooter i just think you know with their team that they have it would enhance russell westbrook and if you make russell westbrook a more efficient scorer guess what your team gets better too. It's just disappointing that it hasn't happened already. Because I think Billy Donovan wants to run that offense. He did it Florida.

And with OKC, it just hasn't worked out because he hasn't been able to install it. I'm in on OKC. I'm looking up their odds right now. The NBA title odds have, there it is, NBA Futures. They had a great summer. Championships. Golden State's minus 180. Celtics 6-1.

Rockets 10-1. Lakers 18-1. Philly 20-1. Toronto 30-1. OKC still 40-1. I would say. Not a bad sleeper bet. Am I crazy or are they the second best chance in the west if something

weird happens with golden state would you take houston or okc right now um probably houston right now by a little bit but chris paul year 14 scary he gets hurt every year james harden year eight of oh he always gets burned out in the playoffs yeah you know yeah i mean i mean like i'm kind of flip-flopping right here, but OKC, you know, we'll see how Burn and Ingram develops for the Lakers as well, and Lonzo too with LeBron. They're there as well. I think the Lakers.

It's kind of a toss-up between them. The Lakers 18-1. Lakers are underrated right now. Yeah, that seems too high. You think it's too high? I think it should be like 10-1. Oh, OK, sorry. Yeah, OK.

18-1 seems... I had a good conversation with my friend. It's not like Cleveland was a good team last year that LeBron took to the finals. And if they win game one, who the F is, what's happening? Cleveland. No. Just from losing LeBron. There's a 7-8 seed chance with them.

Yeah, 7-8 seed. And then you get bounced in the first round. Yeah. But, you know, with OKC and the Lakers, I think both those teams obviously had tremendous summers, right? OKC, it wasn't just retaining Paul George. It was you get back Jeremy Grant. You also add Dennis Schroeder, who I know you're not a big fan of, right? No, I'm a big fan of that trade for them.

You like the trade for them. I like the trade for them. I mean, I think Schroeder, he's become a little bit underrated where, like in Atlanta, he had to become the scorer. My argument with him was I didn't think he was an elite point guard. But I think if he's your third guard

he's kind of overqualified to do that. Yeah. Because he can create his own shot and he can distribute. And I think he's good enough to where it's worth it

for us to get moved off ball. What kind of a dick was he in Atlanta that it just seemed like over and over again it's like wow you know they need to change their chemistry. Like what the dick was he in Atlanta that it just seemed like over and over again, it's like, wow, you know, they need to change their chemistry. Like, what the fuck was he doing? Like they talk about 9-11 truther videos

in the locker room. Like, what was he up to? Whatever it is, that's one thing that's going to need to change in Oklahoma City, for sure. Well, if this trade wasn't a wake-up call for him, he was basically given away. Not just a wake-up call. He was basically given away. Not just a wake-up call.

He was literally given away. Not just a wake-up call, but an opportunity of a lifetime to go to a contender. To play crunch time. Yeah, to play crunch time minutes alongside Russell Westbrook and Paul George

and Steven Adams and Andre Robertson. You know, those last four I just mentioned were one of the best groups in the league last regular season. Those guys managed

to stay healthy. I heard what you said to Verno about OKC actually targeted him and they believe he can play crunch time for them. And I kind of believe it too. My argument with this trade, which I've said before, I'll just quickly say it again, is I think he can swing a playoff game.

If they're playing Portland in round two and it's game three and Westbrook's off and Paul George is in foul trouble, he could actually score 15 points in the third quarter and kind of keep them around a little like what Reggie Jackson used to do for them. And I didn't love Reggie Jackson either, but on that team, he was really useful, that OKC team. So I think he could do that. He's a rational confidence. He honestly thinks he's one of the best guys in the league. And you kind of need that as a sixth man on that team so westbrook's hard to play with my favorite type of backup guards are the the spark plugs like rogier yeah right yeah yeah right you know and smart like those guys are out there

yeah i think schruder is um he's someone who can pop 30 points for you he can have one game like that to help swing a game in the regular season you know improve your seating or somebody who can help win a playoff game for you i like schr shooter a lot and i think you know 15.5 million dollars by the end of that deal could end up looking like a pretty solid uh cap figure for him compared to now when it feels like an overpay 40 to 1 seems too high and the thing is we haven't talked about it but the reason to believe in that team is their defense oh no doubt and i think they're more flexible than they were last year, but that's the... If you

think about last year, Houston almost beat Golden State because of their defense. It was not because of their offense. It was because of their defense and threes. OKC could be this year's version of that, where they just make it really hard for Golden State to do stuff. The Celtics over under, by the way. What do you think it is?

This is what Vegas is. It was like 58 or something like that. Yeah, 58 and a half. 58 and a half, wow. That feels too low to me. Vegas really doesn't think the Celtics are in 60 games

in the East? It feels too low. I thought it should have been around like 62 and a half. That's what Golden State is. Golden State's like 62, 63. I think it should have been right on par.

But Golden State should be low because they just take games off. Yeah, exactly. I don't know if the Celtics team is going to take a lot of games off. Especially rejuvenated with Hayward and Irving back. Yeah, they have young guys. Kyrie's in a contract here.

Kyrie's apparently looking great. Last thing before we go, Philly. No GM yet. Pretty odd. No GM. Whole summer, nothing. Weird. Do you think they need to add one right now?

Is it a rush? Who do I call if I'm another team? Who am I calling? Brett Brown? The weird stuff. Yeah, I mean, I've heard like some people, like an agent told me, I think this is like in late July or something.

He's like, I'm not sure who to talk to about certain things right now. Before it was always Brian Colangelo. Now it's, I don't know. That team got worse. That team, the March, April, May Philly team that we saw that really probably should have beaten Boston and just kind of wasn't ready to do it.

But that team that had the winning streak, all that stuff, it partially happened because their bench was so good. Yeah. And the Bell and Elie Sova combo really kind of, and then Ben kind of took off. He obviously had a bad round too. But there was a depth that they had that unless Fultz comes through,

they don't have the depth this year. They didn't add anybody. They added Wilson Chandler. That was it. Yeah. And like Mikael Burgess, when they initially drafted him, he was thought of as a rookie who could contribute early. But then they flipped him for Zaire Smith, of course, who's probably not going to be a guy who contributes early. Well, he got hurt.

Yeah, he got hurt, and he's just not at that stage yet. Yeah, but we weren't counting on him this year as being a reliable contributor, and then now it looks like he might miss the season anyway. I just don't think they have the same depth. He'll be back at some point, I think. Come back all-star break range. Yeah, maybe late.

I wouldn't underrate the the Jonah Bolden ad granted he's just a backup big behind him bead but Jonah Bolden's an interesting player who can space the floor for you versatile defensively I like Bolden a lot I know me and Charks and Danny Chow all had him ranked pretty highly in the 2017 draft guide it'll I think he could be a little bit overlooked for Philly's bench. Well, I didn't realize that Jonah Baldwin, I'm going to change my mind.

I mean, that's like a deep cut, right? Totally forgot. That's a deep cut. But the thing is like, it's the same thing as last year. And bead,

who the hell is Jonah Baldwin? He might have to play next year. And be, they need 70 games? I mean, that's to me a big question. 2,200 minutes? I mean, he could have had the healthiest season of his career, and I hope not.

I hope he has healthier seasons. But, you know, can't forget the injury concerns. He played like 60 games last year, probably played like 1,800 minutes, something like that. 1,700 minutes. For them to be a top four team in the East, I think he's got to play 70 games in 2,200 minutes. So you're talking top four in the East even.

Top four in the East. Like behind Boston, Toronto, Indiana, and Milwaukee. So like obviously if the Mies aren't healthy. But the thing is all those teams are in flex, right? Toronto, if Kawhi doesn't come through toss him out Indiana I don't I didn't love their summer as much as other people did really I liked it

Tyreek Evans, ball handler, Doug McDermott a shooter I don't like Tyreek and Victor Oladipo together I don't think that works I think they're too similar I could see that McDermott for what they paid seemed high.

I don't know. I really thought they should have signed Marcus. I think they went down the list of shooters on the market like J.J. Redick. Nope. Didn't get him. Joe Harris. Nope. Didn't get him. Doug McDermott. Okay. Guess we can get him. But they were kind of operating in the supporting actor

thing and I actually thought they needed like a blue chipper guy who could play crunch time for them like they needed one more I don't like Darren Carlson I wanted them to get

another guard and I thought Marcus was the perfect guy for them I would have overpaid for him what if it is Tyreek Evans though

Tyreek was really good crunch time I'm not saying he'll replicate what he did last season on a bad team like the Grizzlies. But was last season a fluke? That came out of nowhere. It easily could have been a fluke. It was so weird. It was the best four month stretch of awesomeness. Best season since his rookie year.

Which was like 10 years ago. I'm still surprised Memphis didn't trade him at the deadline. If you were running Indiana, would you have overpaid for Marcus? 60 for 4? Something like that? I was wondering what's the number. If you were running Indiana, would you have overpaid for Marcus? 60 for 4, something like that? Yeah, I was wondering what's the number, 60 for 4? That's not much more than what he got.

Well, he ended up with like 4 for 50, something like that. Yeah, I think, what if Boston matches that? Do they? Make them match it. That's good. You hurt Boston. That's what I don't get with these teams. You're hurting the Celtics. They've now overpaid for somebody they like.

I love Marcus Smart. Would you rather have Tyreek and Doug McDermott or Marcus Smart for this season? Door A is Tyreek and Doug McDermott. Door B is Marcus Smart. You said for this season? Tyreek and Doug McDermott for Indiana.

I'd rather Marcus Smart. Does Marcus get worse in any situation? All I care about is a situation like that Cleveland game, game four. I need five guys in the last five minutes. Who are my five? They didn't have five. They had four. Marcus I know can be in that game.

So now I have him, I have Oladipo, I have Miles Turner, I have Bogdanovich, and who's my fifth? Who'd you not say? So bonus, did you say name two? Thad Young. Thad Young, okay, yeah. So I have those five. I'm okay.

I feel like I can maybe some bonus. I now have six guys that I know I can count on at least okay. Marcus Smart with Brad Stevensvens one of the best coaches in the league if not the best even with boston marcus smart still takes these wild shots and makes crazy decisions on the court that make you pull your hair out that make your blood pressure rise what happens in a new situation does that get worse it very well might that would be my fear if i'm any of the other 29 teams that marcus Smart on my team is going to do even more insane things than he already does on Boston.

And granted, you live with that when you're the Celtics because of the fact that everything else he does as a passer, he's very underrated as a passer, as a defender, leadership, intangibles, all those things, intercepting passes, deflecting passes, blocking shots at the rim. He is an unbelievable defensive player, one of the best in the league. So you live with it. But if the offense gets worse

in a new situation, maybe it gets to a point where it's like, eh, maybe the defense isn't worth it. Can it make the counter? Sure. Is there a better defensive backcourt in the league or maybe in the last 10 years than Oladipo and Marcus Smart? Probably not. I mean, it's right up there. Can you think of

three other crowds other than Boston that Marcus would click with like he would with Indiana? They would embrace him for sure. Those fans, the way they built that arena, the fans are right on top of the court. I think Marcus would have, I just think, and he's a proven playoff guy, which is what they need. I just, I don't know what I'm getting with

Tyreek. And as a Celtic fan, I'm glad that that's what they ended up doing. I really think it would have been bad if they had signed Marcus. We're talking about tradable contracts. Now Marcus becomes that guy, either he's a keeper for you at a fair price or he's the guy you use in a deal to get the next guy. Or

him or Roger. I just don't feel like in March, one of those two is not on the team. Unless Boston is thinking like, well, what if Kyrie leaves? What if worst case scenario happens? Kyrie's not leaving. I'm so tired of reading this. Why would Kyrie leave?

This is the best possible team to be on for a 1% chance. He's not leaving. I don't think he's leaving either. It's crazy for him to team to be on from a talent standpoint. There's at least a 1% chance. He's not leaving. I don't think he's leaving either. It's crazy for him to leave. It's not a guarantee though. So Rozier could be considered insurance. The question for me is, does Boston secretly want him to leave?

Hmm. I don't think so. It seems silly. Sure, yeah. Let's say in December he hurt December he has yet another knee injury. Oh, then see you later, maybe. No, and he comes back, but it's like his knee is 80% again, and now we're heading into free agency.

Well, if that's the case, and if Rozier makes improvements, then maybe you're thinking about it, similar to Isaiah Thomas somewhere where it's like, yeah, we like you a lot, but we don't really want to pay you. People keep saying, like Kyra, well, what if he leaves? It's like, well, what if Boston wants him to leave? Because they can't afford to pay somebody $25, $26, $27 million a year

if they're not 100% convinced he's healthy. You don't want Kyrie to leave. It's only if this worst case scenario presents itself. If you just feel like he can't stay healthy, you're not investing in him because you have Jalen Brown and Tatum coming. And the way they have staggered the contracts, Horford's got two years left.

He expires. Now you pay Jalen Brown. And then a year later, Hayward expires. And then you pay Tatum. And they've mapped this whole thing out. And then those guys can come back unless their salaries. Kyrie is the X factor. You don't want Kyrie to leave though. He's like 26 years old. I just said I don't want him to leave. I know. I'm X factor. You don't want Kyrie to leave though.

He's like 26. I just said, I don't want to leave. I know. I'm just saying like, I don't want him to leave. You don't see. I don't think he's leaving.

I don't either. I think he has to prove that he can make it physically through a season. But even if it's like Chris Paul type of 65 ish games, you're cool with that. As long as it's healthy in the playoffs. How many knee injuries? He already has proven. He can stay healthy in the playoffs. He helped the winner frigging finals for the calves. I'm with that as long as he's healthy in the playoffs. How many knee injuries? He already has proven he can stay healthy

in the playoffs. He helped win our frigging finals for the Cavs. I'm with that. He's had three moving forward. He's had three knee injuries.

There's no doubt the knee's scary. He'd broken kneecap. He had the injury last year. And then he had the thing at Duke. So he's had three. That was a foot injury.

Foot injury. So he's had three leg injuries. Yeah, put it this way. There's been knee trouble. He's 26. Yeah, it was a right toe injury at Duke. And you missed the whole thing. Yeah, after eight games.

What other injuries has he had? Now I'm starting to freak out. I mean, I'm always a worrywot when it comes to injuries. I think guards who have been injured a few times make me nervous. Guards and big guys. But he's at least had two knees. Alright, my point is

if they're going to invest $180 million in him, I think he has to have a healthy season. And if he can't stay healthy, I think they are going to blink. I'm not saying they won't resign him, but I think it'll give them pause. It's the type of thing that you kind of have to do it.

Kind of have to bring him back. You don't want to screw around with that because of his talent level. Unless the injury is serious. We're just talking in hypotheticals here. If he has another pretty severe injury that now it's like turning into like a Blake Griffin Clippers thing where you're like, man, he's had this, this, this, this, and this already.

I don't know. Clippers managed to trade Blake. True. You know, I mean, maybe I'm just saying, maybe that's the play is like you resign him and then six months later, then you're free to do it. Here's where I want to end on this. I think Kyrie is going to be healthy this season.

I think he's going to kick ass. And I think he's going to stay in Boston. Are the Celtics going to win the title this year? I think they have a very good team. I think they could compete for one. I think Golden State is the best team. I think Golden State, this is one of the best teams of all time.

And picking against them for any reason is foolish. It would be silly. To pick against Golden State, you're projecting an injury for them, which could happen. That could happen to anybody. I like adding boogie to everything they have. It's a new dimension to their team. They can play with size now.

It's just like a fun random dude. And if it doesn't work out, you just get rid of him. All this talk about small ball is obviously important in today's NBA, but now suddenly the team that really accelerated small ball with Draymond at the five, even KD at the five, now they have DeMarcus Cousins, who last we saw him healthy, was one of the best big men in basketball. It's fascinating.

What's your favorite collectible possession? Oh, for a lineup. That you have. Oh. Like a guitar? Oh, definitely a guitar. Basket have. Oh. Like a guitar? Oh, definitely a guitar. Basketball card? Definitely a guitar.

Would you bet your guitar that Kyrie Irving can play 90 games this year? So we're talking including playoffs, of course. 90 games. Can you get to 90? Would you bet your guitar on this? I'm just doing math in my head. So like four game series. So it's like 74 regular season games.

I'm making this way more complicated than it has to be. 74 regular season games in like 16 to 20. Yeah. All right. Kevin O'Connor just bet his guitar. You heard it here first. I'll bet my worst guitar. And Kyle, stop going to the dark room with Luka Doncic.

This is bullshit. Leave this guy alone. Leave Luka alone. You can listen to KOC on the Ringer NBA show every Tuesday or is it Wednesday during the off season? Every Tuesday. Every Tuesday. With Verno?

And then Fridays, I haven't even told you this, we're figuring out something for Fridays. I have like an email. A non-draft party. I have like an email pre-typed to you that I was going to send this morning. I think it just might be you, Danny, and Charks on Fridays. Would you enjoy that?

Yeah, I'll show you the email. Let's let America decide whether that should happen. I'll show you the email after the pod. That sounds cryptic. Stay off a fucking unicycle, KLC. I have ideas. Stay off your unicycle. Don't take Instagram photos with no hands.

All right, coming up, Katie Nolan a little bit right after this. All right. Before we get to Katie, you can probably tell from my Instagram, I've been trying to stay clean shaven. Had a beard for a while. Wasn't feeling it anymore. Every now and then, like right now, I'll go a few days without shaving. And then I realize I look terrible.

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that subscription. God, we're just giving you stuff. Visit Gillette online at gilletteondemand.com to get started. And if you're a dude, you probably shave. Why wouldn't you do this? All right. Let's talk to Katie. Katie Dolan's here. We're taping this on a Friday afternoon, LA time, but I think it's running a little bit later than that. What do you mean? It's going to run like, I don't know, Tuesday? Oh. Wednesday?

Something like that? Just whenever you feel like it. Just any given. When I need a guest. Yeah. I already did all my pods this week. Oh. Well, I'm honored to be here.

You haven't slept in four days. We have to figure out how to edit it and make it seem like you're not tired. Yeah. Make me sound smart. You literally haven't slept in four days? No, not literally. We could be literal. So Monday night, something went wrong with our show at 11 p.m. for Wednesday.

So I stayed at the office until 5 fixing it. And then the get-up crew came in while I was still there. Really? Yeah, which was fun. You should have just gone on and been just in sweatpants. I wanted to go to their morning meeting. Like I have thoughts, but I'm sure they wouldn't have listened anyway. So I went home and then the next night, probably three hours in the night after that, like two.

I would imagine those morning meetings for the morning shows have to be one of the saddest, most uncaffeinated places you could be. It was so weird. Everybody's focus just has to be waiting for the coffee to kick in. Because I'm not a morning person. So I don't know if there are people who are like, I'm ready to go for a 5 a.m. meeting. But I couldn't picture it. And when I saw them all walk in, I'm like, yeah, that's what I thought it would be. It was a lot of like, oh.

Yeah, I can tell you're not a morning person because I'm on West Coast time and you're tweeting at times when I'm about to fall asleep. Yeah. There's tweets like at 11.48 Pacific time. Yeah. And that's early for me. And you're just up doing stuff. Yeah, you're watching TV. Yeah.

Playing video games. Mm-hmm. Fortnite? Mm-hmm. But I heard Stephanie told me, you have the most controversial Fortnite thing. You play like the elementary school Fortnite. It's not elementary school.

It definitely is. There are statistically more children that play Battle Royale which is the one that you've can we say you play it or you you've have played it

you're good now no I'm terrible yeah I have no twitch reflexes left no I play it all the time because my kids play it see

elementary school version yeah but we play Battle Royale yeah it's Royale but it's Battle Royale you got it you got it

yeah I play Save the World which is like the bigger campaign where like Yeah, but we play Battle Royale. Yeah, it's Royale, but it's... Battle Royale. You got it. Yeah, I play Save the World, which is like the bigger campaign where like if you do well, you get stuff for that and then you can do better the next. It's like a, it's all about personal growth as opposed to just... Just like Hunger Games. There's only going to be one of us left at the end of this. Right. And it's like teamwork. It's co-op.

We could do squads. Yeah, you could. I don't have friends. Yeah. I don't have friends that play video games. That's baloney. I personally know

like two people who play video games all the time that you know. But I play PlayStation and I imagine do they have Xbox? Like nobody plays on PlayStation.

Most people are PlayStation. Are they? Everybody I've ever talked to is Xbox. I'm pro PlayStation anti-Xbox. Is Fortnite, do you get obsessed with video games or is this like a unique thing? I would say are they? everybody I've ever talked to is Xbox I'm pro PlayStation anti Xbox is Fortnite do you get obsessed

with video games or is this like a unique thing? I would say I never thought I mean I'm kind of an obsessive person in general

when I do something I like to do it a lot yeah that's why I never tried you know heroin but yet

yet but no when I didn't have a job or anything to do for a couple months, I started playing video games. Got really into Uncharted. I don't know what Uncharted is.

I don't do the online version. Fortnite's the first game I played the online version of anything with where you have to play with other real people elsewhere in the world. That was more of like a campaign game. I used to be one of the great video gamers of all time. Oh, really? During the early days of video games. Yeah. Way back in television, Atari, Nintendo, Tecmo. And finally stopped about, I don't know, 15 years ago.

It's the wrong time to stop. But then now my kids are into it. And the Fortnite thing and I got sucked back in. I've spent a little too much time this summer. How are your kids? My kids are 10 and 13. So we have a 13 year old girl. You met, you probably met her when she was like, I don't know, eight, seven, something like that. So yeah, I just, on my podcast last week, I did a parent quarter about the, my wife versus my daughter is now the next seven years of my life. Seven's a low number, right? Even seven's low. Ten years of your life. It's just, and nephew Kyle's gets involved too. It's just, it's the little pettiest, dumbest, small start. And then it snowballs into something major. Yeah. And it's just amazing to watch. What about your son? My son's, he's great. Is

he still a crazy person? My son's great. Is he more crazy, less crazy? What do you think, Kyle? I'd say he's toeing the line. Toeing the line, yeah. Right now, he's a good kind of crazy. Okay. But he's definitely also the potential of the spending seven years in college and running the frat,

but then getting kicked out and having to live off campus and finish somewhere else is awesome. He's like the Van Wilder. You want to get to the point with kids else is awesome. But yeah, it's wilder. You want to get to the point with kids where you can travel with them and it's actually fun, which I think I'm at the point with each. They're old enough now. That seems about right.

Give them an iPad. You just want to get out of there. But when you go back to the morning person thing, I was the same way. I was a night owl night person. But when you have a kid, you have no choice. From what I've heard. It's like Stockholm syndrome. You just get sucked in. And does that stay like did you are you now more of a morning person because you had to do that for so long i don't feel like in my heart i don't feel like i am yeah

but i feel like you are so you you were unemployed or you were you were between yes i was fun employed in that you collect a check, but you can't do anything. I wish I knew what that was like. Oh, wait. Oh, yeah. That was the last four months of my ESPN life. Uh-huh.

Yeah. I actually really liked it. Four months. You had a, you knew when it was going to be over, right? Yeah, I was trying to do my next job, find my next job. I didn't have a end point.

It felt kind of indefinite. job. I didn't have a end point it felt kind of indefinite so I didn't love it the first few months were really fun I went on vacation I learned how to like relax instead of work all the time Where'd you go on vacation? What'd you do? I went to Turks and Caicos for like longer

than you should go to Turks and Caicos cause there's really not as much to do as than just like sit on the beach Did you watch like tourist rom-coms to get ready to film your own rom-com? Like how Stella got her groove back, all this type of. Did they, where'd they go when Stella got her groove back?

I think they went to Jamaica, didn't they? Probably. Taye Diggs. It was a good film. There's a lot of tourist rom-coms. I didn't watch any of them. Okay. I read books.

You read books. Turks and Caicos reading books. Yep. Trying to just like keep my brain active. But then after a couple months of not working, I started to kind of go crazy. I don't blame you. Then I played video games. Well, you're used to having a platform.

I'm used to working all hours of the day. And content and doing things and thinking about content. Yeah. So it was hard to feel like I existed if there was nothing being made. I felt I was in that hamster wheel. And then when I got suspended and all of a sudden, like I literally couldn't come to work. And then when I found out they weren't paying me for something like, well, I'm not working. And I was like, Oh, what do I do? I'll go to the movies today. I'm going to go play golf. It was kind of cool. It was fun for two weeks. The third week I was bored. I wish I was good at golf. I'm not to go play golf. It was kind of cool. It was fun for two weeks. By the third week, I was bored.

I wish I was good at golf. I'm not good at golf. No, but I'm like not even playable at golf. And I get frustrated if I start to play and it goes poorly because I don't like being really bad at something. And so then I just get frustrated the whole day. And the whole point of golf is to kind of just enjoy it and relax. That sounds like my son. My son's one of those things where he's either good at it or he hates it.

Yep. It's kind of like me. Did you have temper tantrums as a kid? Me? No. No? Yes, of course I did. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, my son has to be good at something or else he doesn't want to learn how to be good at something. I don't mind learning. I don't like if it's something that I can't learn. If I identify, you've told me this same thing every time and I still don't get it, it's not helping me, then I just get frustrated. Do you play sports? Do you do stuff? I played softball when I was a kid.

That was my thing. And then I danced. I was captain of my dance team. Oh, you danced? I didn't know that. Yes, you did. If I did, I forgot it. Oh, you danced? I didn't know that. Yes, you did. If I did, I forgot it. Oh, that's fine.

That's more honest. Yeah, that was always going to be my thing. I was going to be a dancer. I was a rhythmic gymnast. You knew all of this. I do know that. I remember that. So that was my thing.

How is dancing the same as rhythm? Say it. Rhythmic gymnastics? Rhythmic gymnastics. Rhythmic. It's like rhythm. Rhythmic. Rhythmic gymnastics. Rhythmic gymnastics. Rhythmic. It's like rhythm. Rhythmic. Rhythmic.

It's dance-based because you're not allowed to do any flips and stuff. It's not gymnastics. You're not allowed to do flips. Yeah. So if you do a flip, they get mad? Your score gets docked? You get a penalty. Sounds like a sports movie.

Someone does a flip anyway to fight the rules maybe rhythmic gymnastics would have it's renaissance what would happen if you did rhythmic gymnastics he's really struggling with the word rhythmic rhythmic gymnastics what would happen if you did that right now would you be like

half decent I'd be better than you but I don't it's now become a sport about would you be like half decent? I'd be better than you right but I don't I mean it's now become a sport about like body contortion like if you've ever watched it

in the Olympics the girls do these crazy back bends and legs over their head and oh like stuff in a horror movie when somebody's possessed by Satan

and their body's going backwards and their like joints bent like my my joints still do weird things ooh I know her right elbow just kind of it just go it overextends yeah and then their body's going backwards. And their like joints bent. Like my joints still do weird things. Ooh. I know. Her right elbow just kind of. It just go, it overextends.

Yeah. And my legs, I still have some of the flexibility because they train you like crazy for that sport. And they tear your muscles so that when they heal, they reheal longer. I don't know the science behind that. I just know it's what we were told as kids. It naturally tears.

Yeah. Well, so they'll put your, the heel of your leg on the on a chair and then the rest of your leg in a split behind you on the ground yeah and they'll sit on you so that your butt it's not a good visual but you're like this and then they try to push your torso down into the ground so it tears your what is that your quad what's the one on So it tears your, what is that, your quad? What's the one on the back? This doesn't sound legal. It probably isn't, but you know, it was the wild west back then.

There were no rules. Yeah. Fortunately, we have rules. But so my legs are still, I can still do the kicks and stuff. It's just not as useful. Yeah, that sounds horrible. Yeah. How many people can make the rhythmic gymnastics team?

You did it. Or Olympics. That was really good. Thank you. I actually don't know. Or Olympics. That was really good. On the Olympics. Thank you. I actually don't know. There's group and there's individual. Group. Yeah.

So I did group, even though I wanted to do individual. It's four people. I think now they might do five, but it was four. And then now you can do multi. Nobody cares about any of this, so we can move on. But you can do multi apparatus. I think it's fascinating. Multi apparatus. So there's hoop, ball we can move on. But you can do multi-apparatus. I think it's fascinating. Multi-apparatus. So there's hoop, ball, ribbon, clubs.

Clubs? Yeah, they're the bane of my existence. And ball and floor. So there's six. Not nunchucks? Nunchucks isn't one of them? Essentially clubs are nunchucks. But now you can do like a routine where three of the girls have a hoop and two of them have a ribbon.

And then it gives you all these opportunities to do cool stuff. Is there video of you on the internet doing this? I don't know if it's on the internet yet. But the video does exist. It might. Your parents just have to be in your corner and not leak it out. There's also something weird about sharing videos of you as a child in a leotard that I'm like, I don't know if I want that on the internet. Just because I don't want the weirdness that I feel like would ensue.

I would say you 100% don't want that. Yeah. If it was a sport, I did wearing pants. I wouldn't be if I want that on the internet just because I don't want the weirdness that I feel like. I would say you 100% don't want that. Yeah. If I did, if it was a sport, I did wearing pants. I wouldn't be embarrassed to show it, but it's like, that's my little childhood butt. And I don't think the world needs to see it. So the last time we did this was, I don't know, it was probably winter 2015, something like that. It's hard to picture it being winter because it was hot, but we're in LA, so it might have been. I didn't have the office yet.

It was that you came to my house. Yes, yeah. And you were debating whether you're going to move to LA. Yeah. When was that? It seemed like, I'm going to say it was like December 2015, somewhere in there. You were one of the first 20 pods I did when I relaunched the feed. And you were thinking about moving out to LA. I've been quote unquote thinking about moving to LA for like five years. Right. Yeah.

But that time it really seemed like you were kind of, I could tell you were looking around. Ooh, what's this neighborhood? Anybody's like, what's this neighborhood? Like that's not a question you ask unless you're actually thinking of moving to LA. Because there's so many neighborhoods here and I don't understand which ones are the good ones and which ones you're not supposed to move to or which ones are, oh, you live there. Ew. Right. That was cool five years ago And I don't understand which ones are the good ones and which ones you're not supposed to move to or which ones are, oh, you live there? Ew. Right.

That was cool five years ago. I don't get any of that. I still don't get it and I've been here since 2002. I thought I got a hotel close to here and I'm, it took me 45 minutes

to get here. Oh, seriously? Yeah, I don't know. Why didn't you ask us what hotel? Because you're busy. If there's text me, I'd be like,

what hotel should I stay at? And I would text you back. You should stay in this neighborhood. I'm in Marina Del Rey. Oh, Jesus. Not close. Oh, my God. Everyone's faces in the room just went, what?

I don't know. That's where the NBA teams put their teams for the night when they don't want them to go out in LA. They put them in Marina Del Rey. But it's so pretty. There's so many boats. I know. And the NBA players don't get in trouble there because there's nothing to do. That's why I'm there. That's why you're there? Staying out in LA. They put them in Marina Del Rey. But it's so pretty. There's so many boats. I know. And the NBA players don't get in

trouble there because there's nothing to do. That's why I'm there. Staying out of trouble. That's why you're there? ESPN put you in Marina Del Rey? I picked it. They didn't want you in Hollywood. I don't know. It is nice over there, I will say. It's relaxing. There's a nice breeze off the water. You know who's in kind of that area is

Loyola Marymount. Oh. The college, which is one of the many reasons why I don't understand why they're not an awesome basketball program because when you go there, you're like, wow, there's a college here with a Division I basketball team? Yeah. And DNA? This should work. So you never moved here? No.

It almost happened though, right? You were going to come here and you were going to do like a daily nighttime something. It was going to be daytime. Daytime. It was going to be every day. Yeah. So what happened? Well, so the me moving to LA thing has been a question since forever ago because everyone's based out here. And so it's always been a, if I have to, have to, have to, I would have done it. But I always wanted to make sure before I did it that all the ducks were in a row that everything made sense that I wasn't just gonna give up the I don't know like the gambling chip that I have

of like oh I live in New York and I like it here I like being separate which I know you can understand being separate from the behemoth that you work for so uh after we did Garbage Time at the Super Bowl, was that 52 that we won? 51? 51. Which one of the five that we won? Hold on. 36, 38, 39. Overtime.

I think it was 51. Yeah. Right? Seattle? No. No, Atlanta. Yeah. The last one.

That was 51. Yeah. Okay. And so after that, like we didn't know that was going to be essentially our last show. Then we were going to have conversations about moving me out there and doing a daily live show. But a lot of things went wrong at the Super Bowl show that I had specifically said, all I care about is like these three things. And they were like, totally. And then they didn't care. So I just started to get really skeptical of like moving out here before I knew exactly on paper, like what's happening, what's what the standard is.

Yeah. So I was like, I'll come out here for the summer or whatever that was like March and we can develop a show. And then if we develop a show that we like. I'll stay. I'll sign a deal and I'll stay because I was still under contract. So I was like, I'll sign a new deal. And they were like, we want you to sign a new deal

and then move out here and then we'll develop it. And that didn't make any sense to me because if we didn't develop something that I liked, I would have been stuck. And so I don't know if it was the right decision, but it just didn't feel right to me to move and put that much faith in something when I just put faith in it at the Superbowl and it didn't work out. So I decided to not do that.

What didn't work out at the Superbowl? I don't remember. I remember it being unhappy, but I don't remember the reasons. Um, the big one was we made it into a panel show. So it was going to be me and three other hosts. And we had, it was kind of a headache booking the hosts. And I had made it a point that, you know, a lot of shows on FS1 at the time were just the same show, but shuffling chairs. So it just always felt like it was the same talent, but one was hosting this time and then these ones were the panel. And I didn't want it to be me and a bunch of FS1 talent. Not that I didn't like them. You just didn't want it to seem like every other show. I just didn't want it to feel like every other show. Right. Because we were always so different. And I knew we had to change a little because we were going to be an hour every day.

But I didn't want it to look that much the same. So I was like, Nick Wright, who I love, like he can be on our show. And I want the two other seats to be other people. So I went and got Sarah Tiana. Yeah. Who I found through your podcast, I think. Yeah. It's probably the first I'd heard of her. And I wanted her. So I found through your podcast, I think. Yeah. It's probably the first I'd heard of her.

And I wanted her. So I got her. She's a Falcons fan. So that worked out. So it was her and Nick Wright. And then we were going to rotate that other seat because we couldn't get somebody. And the day of,

or the night before our first show, they said whoever they had booked, quote unquote, missed his flight. And so it's going to be Chris Carter, Nick Wright, and Sarah Tiana. And I knew's going to be Chris Carter, Nick Wright and Sarah Tiana. And I knew they were launching a Chris Carter, Nick Wright vehicle soon. And I knew that they wanted to use our show to be like, look at the two of them together. Look at the chemistry.

And I love both of them, but I didn't want our show to be used for that. And so we did a show with Chris Carter and Chris Carter didn't know me yet. And so he didn't really know the vibe of me and my show. And so you could tell he felt like when he was trying to talk and I would interject, he gave me kind of a look of like, excuse me, I'm talking right now, which is fair because that's what he, that's the kind of programming he's on where it's like you talk for a long time and then this person talks and then you give it back to the host who moves on to the next thing.

And so it was kind of, we got into this fight about Spy Kate. You did? Which is so stupid. Is this on the internet? Yeah. Oh, I gotta watch this. But like, I wasn't prepared to go down that road.

And, but I also couldn't let somebody sit next to me on my show and be like the Patriots cheated and blah, blah, blah. So I, we got into it. And I know afterwards he was like, I'm never doing that show again. Like, why did you put me on this to the Fox people? We've since made up and now I would call him a very good friend. But I said to them when we're going in, I'm like, he, it's nothing against him personally. It's that he, it's the vibe of our

show. He doesn't, I don't think he'll. More importantly, you defended Spygate, which I really appreciate. Yeah. Because people seem to think we'll get it or care. More importantly, you defended Spygate, which I really appreciate. Because people seem to think we taped the practices back then. Yes, I know. It's this whole, it's become an urban legend. No one has room in their brains to remember the details. So they just boil it down to like. They tape practices.

Yeah. Yeah. We probably did something that wasn't legal, but we didn't tape practices. But it wasn't as illegal as all the other stuff. We find our way around the rules that exist. I will say that. We have now said we. Well, we're on the team. Yeah.

The players change, but we stay the same. That's true. Goodell definitely destroyed a lot of boxes with a lot of stuff. Yeah. Which was always. That is shady. Even as a pass fit, I'm like, I'm glad that stuff's gone. But that's weird that he's destroying all this stuff. Why are you doing that?

What was in the tapes? Really weird. We'll never know. Someday, I think we'll know. I don't know. It would be cool if Goodell did a tell all or like an oral history of his commissionership once it's over. When's it going to be over, though? He's such a robot.

I don't know if it ever happens. But maybe he's just a robot because the paycheck. Even like we're taping this on a Friday. The night before he did that football dot is dot back dot tweet. And it's like, are you like an American who's lived here forever and knows like how to use grammar? Like what's going on? How is that where you landed with your getting everyone fired up for football tweet? I don't know how long it lasts.

I hope it's not much longer, but. Him versus Trump. Who goes first? Ooh. Hmm. I think Goodell outlasts Trump. I think so too. I hope so.

I don't actually even know. I can't. When they re-signed Goodell, I was stupefied. I was like, really? He's getting an extension? He's just had the worst five-year run I've ever seen in my life for any commissioner. But I think it makes sense because his job is just to take the heat off of the owners. To fight the bullets.

And he does a very good job of that. If everybody hates Goodell, he's doing his job. Where did you stand on Mr. Garoppolo? You gonna get me fired aren't you no um uh where do i stand on him in what sense like him leaving him leaving did you like him were you ready to move on as your second quarterback husband after brady like i was i was already grooming him to be my my second absolutely i'm always looking at the second guy as like, could I do it? And he was probably the first time I felt like,

yeah, okay. But I don't know. Tom's getting old. Tom is getting old. But he doesn't look like he's getting old. No, he looks great. So it's really hard to predict if them getting rid of him. I didn't know if I was supposed to be angry

or if I'm supposed to do what I always do, which is, you know, in Bill we trust. And so I was excited and I'm still kind of excited to see how he does in San Francisco. And I still think we'll figure something out, but I feel less sure than I'd like to, I guess. Did you think less or more of him

when he compared himself to Vince from Montage and compared his friends to the friends from Vince? I think that my stance on our quarterback and any quarterback that was ours is like, I don't have to like you as a person. Yeah. Not in a, like if they do some shit, like bad,

actual bad things. That's different. Bad football stuff. But if they do, like, if Jimmy Garoppolo is an airhead, I'm okay with that.

Yeah. You know? Like I don't, if Tom Brady is weird and not that smart outside of football, I'm okay with that.

I like that he's getting weird. Yeah? Well, no, I just think he's kept it interesting because if he's going to keep playing, the weirdness, as long as it's not too weird, but I always thought he was like this football robot, but now he clearly wants to show and prove something else, and I don't even think he knows what it is.

I don't think he needs to though. He's pursuing this ideal of how long you can push the limits of the human body and dieting and sleep. And he clearly wants us to believe in him and follow him. But none of us would ever live our lives that way. It's kind of adorable. I love nightshades. I don't even know what nightshades are, but he doesn't eat them.

And I don't like giving up any kind of food. He doesn't really seem to eat anything. He doesn't drink coffee. I don't even know what nightshades are, but he doesn't eat them. And I don't like giving up any kind of food. He doesn't really seem to eat anything. He doesn't drink coffee, I don't think. Well, that's right there as a deal breaker. It's weird. He's weird. What do you think about Guerrero? I have complicated thoughts.

As do I. It does seem like, I always look at it this way. If five years ago we found out the worst about whatever it is, whether you're talking about Alex Guerrero or whatever else, and I saw you and neither of us were surprised at all, that's probably a bad sign. So like if they came out that Alex Guerrero was PD patient X for like 20 football players,

I wouldn't be like, what the fuck? I can't like, I'd be like, all right. What do we do now? I'm not stunned. I mean, I'm not saying he did or he didn't, but it just seems like he's so involved in pushing the limits of the human body.

We've seen this go wrong so many different times in the past in sports that my guard is just up all the time now. You're never sneaking one by me with PDs again. Oh, yeah? It's never happening. Not going to sneak one past Simmons. No, not anymore.

Nope. Not after Manny. Manny was the last time. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because Manny, my argument was that he was always just too stupid to do steroids. Because if you do steroids, you have to buy them. You have to put the needle in them. You have to figure out where to put them in your body

Phil is actually pretending he's mimicking putting a needle in his butt right now I just think that that's good content I need to let the people know yeah I wish we were

being videotaped but there's a relative you have to follow instructions oh yeah you've got like if you miss one at a time you miss one you're screwed up

you're kind of screwed yeah and Manny was these that's a great point he was this guy by all accounts that would leave paychecks for $300,000 in his glove compartment for three years. And it just seemed improbable to me he was going to also do steroids.

And then he gets caught taking this female whatever the thing. It's estrogen that knocks down because you have all this other stuff in your system and you need to bring your hormones back the other way. Right. And there's no reason for a man to take that really ever. Right. So after that, my guard's up. All right. I'll never trust anyone again, Katie.

Oh, no. All because of Manny. Not with PDs. All because of Manny. Anytime there's a situation where we're going, I can't believe he's still doing this or how is he doing this at his age or any of that? I might just, it's like a trigger warning now. I saw, this is reckless speculation and I'm not saying anything, but I saw a video of

Julian Edelman the other day. His face looks weird. I thought it was. You got worried. I thought it was like Botox. Oh I thought it was Botox. Oh. But somebody that I was with was like, because he's on steroids. I'm like, alright, you hate the Patriots. We get it.

He had a little bit... His cheeks were puffy. And he has a line down his... I'm not saying it. You think he's doing fillers? I don't know. Everybody is now. He is in the bottles. Everybody is putting things in their face. And I feel like, ugh. I can't wait until you come back in nine years in the pod and you've just got big ass cheeks.

Oh, yeah. It's scary. Big chin. It's just more common than I thought it was in this industry. It seems pretty easy. I've had people in makeup say, you know, you could fix that if you just pop in and see a doctor and get little fillers. Like, what? Fix what? You're like, what's wrong with me? No, you know, you could fix that if you just pop in and see a doctor and get little fillers. Like what? Fix what?

I have a, you're like, what's wrong with me? No, I know what's wrong. I have big dark circles under my eyes, but they're like,

that's just because if you got a little bit of filler next to your nose, like that seems risky. You do that once, you've got to keep doing that for the rest of your life. It's like when you're

a little girl and you shave your legs for the first time. My mom gave me the speech of you better be ready to do this every day for the rest of your life because once you start, you can't stop.

So I should give that speech to my daughter soon? Well, maybe just have your wife do it, I think. I'm out. I'm out on all hygiene conversations. Yeah, let her deal with that. Really? The makeup artist talked about the dark circles? But it wasn't even in a negative way.

She was being supportive of this will make your life easier. But I was like, oh God, we've reached that point now where I have to actually start thinking about doing that. Jalen was telling me how they're doing postgame on countdown this year. Oh, yeah. And I remember when I did the countdown. You loved it so much. I liked the first year. You would get the makeup pretty much an hour before it started.

So let's say we came on for the pregame at like four. So you get it at three, but then it was a double header and we would stay all the way through the halftime of the second game, which was about, I don't know, nine o'clock. So we'd make up on for like six solid hours. And I honestly felt like it was killing me by like the fifth hour. You poor thing. I don't understand how women just do it every day.

Because we have to because you make us. I felt like the skin was like, I felt like my face was just dying by hour five. Like I wasn't breathing. I was like, my eyes were getting red. You like feel a pimple coming in somewhere. You just know you're clogging a pore. Yeah, it's just burning my eyes. And now they have to go all the way through the second halftime to the post game,

which is now eight straight hours of not only having makeup on, but like the other thing when you do those shows, you know, you have your TV personality, right? Like you do your show. You did your first show last week. You have an audience. There's like that 20 minutes before you're getting fired up. And you have to stay high energy the whole time

and the smile on your face and then once it's over I'm like leave me alone for 35 minutes I need to sit in a corner in silence you just crash that's why they always said Letterman was always in a funk for 23 hours and then when you do a show then he's out and he's a mess

you only have so much energy and you just gotta save it so you have this the double header countdown. You have to have that energy from the pregame. You're eating. That's the other thing. When you eat, when you're doing TV, like Magic and those guys, they would have like, you know, like two plates of whatever we had and then they would go out and be able to turn

it on. Yeah, I don't. And I would be like, I would eat. I would be in a coma at halftime. Yeah. So I've always been impressed by, Beads was the craziest I've ever worked with at that. Where Beats would be like, the camera's about to come on. Boom.

Yeah. She became like TV superhero person. Bill Wolf called her a universal donor for chemistry. And I was like, that's the most accurate description. Yeah. I feel like you can put her on TV with anybody. She just lights up.

She helps it. Yeah. I don't think you could put her on with anybody and it would make it worse. She talks to the crew. Yeah. The crew's in a better mood.

Yeah. And she's just, it's like this on-off switch. Right. And I was always jealous of that because I was the opposite. I had to like, by the time we're at that second half,

don't talk to me. I'm like, can we get coffee? You just said coffee an hour ago. Is there more coffee? Is there soda, candy, anything? I'm tired. Is Jalen still doing Get Up then too?

The next, I should know that I work there. You're in the building with those people. If he does a night thing, a double header and an after show, that's a tough. I think they're going to do the thing where he does weekends countdown and then when the playoffs starts, he's probably not on Get Up. But I've heard he

heard a rumor about him, and I love him very much, that he sometimes keeps his makeup on after he leaves work. Oh, that's not a rumor. Oh, that's like a known thing? I didn't know if it was a known thing. I think it's hilarious known. Okay. Yeah. I think it's hilarious because I can totally agree.

Like, I can see why he would do that. Because I think for men, you don't wear makeup, obviously, for the most part. And I think once you see yourself with makeup, you're like, oh, I could look like this all the time. It must be hard to then go back to having just a face. I have stories about this, to be honest. What? So we were in Miami, I think, for the 13 finals. And we did the show and then we went out. And I was like, Jay, he just looked very sparkly.

I'm like, did you keep your makeup on? And he's like, yeah, why wouldn't I? Exactly. I look good right now. I think it's logical. Fast forward to we did a show, and then I had like a school event after or something. Kept the makeup on.

Yeah. And people were like, I felt like a million bucks. They probably were like, you look great. You've been drinking a lot of water. You're skinny. Yeah, you're glowing. Are you pregnant? Thank you. It's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah yeah makeup makes a friend yeah it just also is a foe because you have to

well because it makes you feel like you're dying all the time it kills you yeah it hurts it murders you well so when you were getting back in the swing you did your first show for the for the espn ott yes um called always, which I think is accurate. How many people in the studio? I think we had an audience of 20. Oh, it sounded like more than that. Yeah, it did. They made it sound big.

I mean, our producers were in there too. But yeah, I think it's like 20 people. They're in a weird spot. We're still trying to figure that out. They're not, they're like on the right of one of the cameras. So it's tough to address them. especially if I'm on camera two. I'm faced away from them.

So we're trying to figure out- What if you had them in harnesses being lowered from the ceiling? I think that's the best option. Like skylights. Maybe we'll try that next week. Not skylights, like chandeliers. Yeah. Try to up the budget of the show a little, see if we can get some harnesses.

The set looked fancy. It was fancy. It was fancier than I thought it was going to be. It's big. It's the get up set. We just have a corner of it. So was it hard to get in the flow back of just, we're a minute away from doing a show now and there's people staring at me and I have to be energy and I'm the anchor of this. It was, I think because so much went wrong right before I almost, it was almost a good thing. I didn't have time to sit and realize that I hadn't done this in a while. The first take we did,

something went wrong. So luckily we had to start it over. But when I said, hello, welcome to always late. I started to choke up because I was like, oh my God, I haven't done this in so long.

And now there's a real audience. It's my show. Uh oh. And so I started to forget. So-oh. You started to choke up? So I started to tear up. That would be awesome if you started just sobbing. I almost did. Welcome to Iceland!

And then I took a moment. I breathed. Then I started the thing and then a graphic thing messed up. And they're like, stop down. We got to start over. And I was like, oh, thank God. Oh, thank God.

So I didn't cry like a loser the second time oh so you get to stop and start that yeah we try not to but first show a bunch went wrong so we had to do that

a couple times so the audience I felt terrible they made them get there way too early and then they they had to stay through the whole taping

which was probably like an hour and a half that's not bad yeah I'm sure I'm sure it was the highlight of their week. I don't know. Might have been.

Did you go and shake hands with everybody after? Well, so we were. Did you high fives like Jay Leno? We had a hard out. We didn't think we were going to hit because it was so far away from when we were supposed to start taping. Yeah.

And so they kicked everybody out the second we were done. So I didn't shake anybody's hand. That was it. But I will someday. How is that complex? It's good. I like it. The seaport. It's nice because at least as of right now, no one really goes down there in the city. So it's not super crowded. So, you know, the commute isn't too bad. It's a nice office space. There's two studios. The second one,

I think, is either about to be finished or just finished. That's where first take is going to be. And I think around the horn. So it's a nice place and there's a lot of people. Is there an oxygen chamber for Stephen A? He has to replenish his oxygen. That man is always

working. I'm all in on Stephen A. I've defended him multiple times the past month. He is there a lot. That dude goes from two hours on live TV doing three-minute monologues back and forth with Max Kellerman on 40 different sports topics, and then goes right to a radio show and talks by himself for another two hours. It's fascinating. I don't know how the fuck he does that. I don't know how he does it either.

And then you'll hear randomly throughout the day yelling. And it's him. And it's because someone's in his office rolling on him on their phone for social yeah and he just has to give a quick opinion on something and he you never hear him like start and then go can we start over he just goes then the social person leaves and he's right back to whatever he was working on he didn't like me in the first few years we kind of crossed paths because i had made jokes and columns about you know writing his quote like he did a couple NBA drafts and any quote I had from him I would just put in all caps and stuff

like that and then he notices those things you think I think he does okay good to know but um I think one of the finals he read my book and anytime I ran into him he was always kind of you know I was like hey whatever uh hey how you doing man um I ran into him, he was always kind of, you know, I was like, hey, whatever. Hey, how you doing, man? And then this one time, he was looking at me with this big smile and said, hey, man, I read your book. And after that, we were great. It was like this whole new Stephen A. that I didn't know existed. And he was like a really good hang.

I love anyone who loves basketball. That's really my starting point. Yeah. If you like genuinely love the NBA, I can figure out a way to talk myself into all human beings. Right. Anyone. I don't. Really anybody.

There's a name that comes to mind. I don't agree. I don't think you could, but we can off pod that. No, if Trump was like. No, that's not who I was thinking of. I don't think he likes basketball. No, but if Trump was like.

Doesn't seem like his sport. If Trump was like. Couple reasons. Hear all my thoughts about the Showtime Lakers and Kareem and like he had these hardcore basketball takes I would be like.

You could talk to him? I'd be like, ah, you know, Trump, you know, maybe get to know him a little bit more. He did love the 80s.

How did you know Stephen A didn't like you? Because I need to know the cues because I don't know if he does or doesn't. He's very nice to me. He always is like, if you ever need anything,

but I also feel like that's partially what you do when you're the face of the network. You tell the new people if they need anything to let you know. But if I ever did need anything. He just becomes more gregarious. Okay. He's very gregarious with me.

Yeah. That's good. That means he likes you. All right. Good. Great. Keep it that way. He could have his own channel and just do 24 straight hours.

I feel like that's the goal. I'm like you. After I'm done with stuff, I need to go in a corner. I genuinely don't like anyone to talk to me for at least 30 minutes. We did that courtside show, and I always had to talk to people on the court and try to be kind of really on for an hour. And your brain's moving. You're trying to figure out, how can I get the best possible question answer.

And even after that, after like 50 minutes, I didn't want to do anything. It's a lot. Yeah. I'm very envious of all the people who have the motor. So you stayed in New York. Mm-hmm. But you're a Boston fan. This is a big red flag.

No, I'm a New York fan now. No, this is a big red flag. What? I don't like that you're so happy living there when that is like our arch enemy. I'm not. In every sport. It's not that I'm happy living there. No, it is.

You like New York. Just admit it. Better than LA. No, but you like New York. Better than LA. No, you like New York. No, I don't even know that I don't. You enjoy living in New York.

I don't leave my house. You like Yankee hats. I don't. Yes, I love Yankee hats. You like seeing Yankee hats. I love a pinstripe. No, I hate it, but I don't leave my house. I work and then I go home and I work and I go home. So it really doesn't matter to me where I live. What matters is like the vibe of the people, not what they're fans of, but that they're fans. I think there are probably more active, passionate sports fans in New York than LA.

Being around a bunch of people. Oh, that's 100% true. Yeah, being around a bunch of people that don't really even care that sports are on. The type of people that would say, oh, it's the NBA finals. Like it's tough to be around an atmosphere like that. And I think that's what LA is.

And I would pick New York over that. Is it? The Laker fans are legit. And we're going to see it, unfortunately, now that LeBron's here. They're going to be crawling out of the woodwork like termites. It's like when the summer comes and there's like, what's that? Is that a bug? And then there's like 130 of them.

That's the Laker fans with LeBron. Well, and there's also, they're not, it's two very different vibes. A stressed out, constantly anxious person like myself fits in new york yeah where everything's go go go i would like to be more chill like the people in la but i'm 31 i know me at this point i don't think barring some huge life-changing event i'm going to turn into a person that just wants to chill and like go to the beach man and work what's work even about and that's what la is so i don't fit in that way either it's like a stereotype you're like a stereotype it's true though rifle right now

just firing bullets it's true la is everybody leaves early in la because because la is already three hours behind new york and so when people in new york leave there's less to do in la true so they all leave at like four or five. I wouldn't know what to do if I left work at four or five. I get there at noon. Well, you don't wake up until 11.30 a.m. Until noon. Quick break to talk about my bookie.

People always ask me for advice. Usually it's what team to bet on this week. If they had asked me last week, they would have done really well. I nailed last week. Sometimes I don't know who's going to win, but if you think you know, you got to check out MyBookie.

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you can even bet the over-under on how many fantasy points a player will score each game. So lay down some cash. Win big today. You win, they pay. They're slammed with new bettors. They want to give everyone the best service possible. If you're willing to deposit after 7 p.m. Eastern time,

they'll give you an additional $25 free play and deposits over $100. Join now. MyBookie will match your deposit dollar for dollar. Use the promo code Bill Simmons when creating your account to climb up to 1,000 in free play. That is M-Y-B-O-O-K-I-E. Don't forget to use my promo code Bill Simmons when creating your account to claim the bonus. You play, you win, you get paid. Can we get back to the part where you just work and don't leave

your house? Why? That seems kind of weird. It is. I don't know. What's going on with you? What do you mean? Well, why don't you leave your house? Why don't you go do stuff? You have friends. I know some of your friends. I have some friends, but I also- Why aren't you out? Are you like afraid to go out? Yes. I'm just scared of- You scared of humans? no I just if I spend all day working on something it's kind of like the thing we were just talking about I only have so much energy

to be on and a lot of times if I go out people expect you to be TV catering on oh talk about this make jokes dance clown and then I just want to sit and have a beer and then you don't want to be that person that's like can we not do this

right now like you're like a staff you're on your phone she's nothing like she is on TV and it's like no I am I just can only be that for so many hours doesn't sound like you are like you are on TV though I am I am it's just like this the to be that way in a stressful situation and hosting your own show as

you know is a stressful situation it hosting your own show, as you know, is a stressful situation. It's awful. Because there's no panelist or something you can turn to to help you in a moment when something's going wrong or when you don't have it, you can lean on your co-host. I don't have that. And so. Do you want Nephi Kyle? He'll be the co-host. Okay.

He'll move. He likes New York City. You're going to have to wear real pants, not sweatpants. These are not sweatpants. Oh, they look like sweatpants. They're khaki pants. Oh, I'm sorry. I like that.

That's fair. I'm really sorry. It's off the table. I apologize. Okay, he's out. I'm out. He's out now. He doesn't want to co-host anymore because of his pants.

Do you want to hear about Nephew Kyle's dating situation? No. I sure do. It's Friday. So are we on or off this week, Kyle? We're on. I'm taking her to do her driver's test when I leave here. Oh, it's back on.

How old is she? She's 22. Oh, Kyle. We're on. I'm taking her to do her driver's test when I leave here. It's back on. How old is she? She's 22. I was like, taking her to do her driver's test but we were going down a weird road. Pun intended. They started dating in April and over the last six months have gotten back together and broken up, I think, 230 times. No.

Yeah. How old are you? 24. Oh. 24. To be young again. Yeah. How'd you meet her? My favorite bar. Darkroom. Melrose. The old way.

Cool. The old fashioned way. The old fashioned way bar. Yeah. Yeah. So my whole family's involved. There's a lot of judging going on. Now I just pity you because why is everybody so involved in your dating life?

You haven't met my daughter. My daughter's involved in everyone's life. She's the nosiest person ever. Plus, social media, you can kind of follow what's going on. So they give you notes? More like comments. Comments. Yeah, throwaway comments.

So we're on this week. We're on, yeah. But he didn't say that confidently. It feels like they might be about to be. They're on the precipice of being off. Here are my thoughts on love, Katie Nolan. If you have to work on it constantly all the time to make it work, it's probably not going to work. Well, okay.

But yes. But it does take some work. And there are a lot of people that think it's supposed to just click and be magic and perfect all the time right away. And that's not true. Right. perfect all the time right away and that's not true right so like when you hit 25 and you get into those roadblocks where you guys keep breaking up you start to learn that oh this isn't a breakup it's what we call a fight and you can get through it and stay together without going through a big breakup i'm diagnosing your relationship it's not a breakup if you just don't talk for 24 hours

right because that's my move oh yeah that's still not a great move okay if you just don't talk for 24 hours, right? Because that's my move. Oh. Well, that's still not a great move. Okay, so you just ghost your own girlfriend. No, she tells me to leave and never talk to her again. And I'm like, I'll give her 24 hours, see what happens. Oh, man. Yeah, see? She sounds like me. It's rocky.

Yeah. It's rocky. Volatile. I feel like it's like a football offense. How, Bill? Go ahead and expound on that. You can try to talk yourself into Nathan Peterman all you want. You can get him the toys and receivers, but ultimately, if you're struggling to score

points, there's something wrong. That was a stretch of a metaphor, but I'll support it. Thank you. It's your podcast. But you have Tom Brady. He's just going. Whatever receiver works and it's flowing. Yeah.

It's probably a good thing. So your take there is Tom Brady better than Nathan Peterman. Yes. Yeah. Strong. That's one of my many takes. It's flowing. Yeah. It's probably a good thing. So your take there is Tom Brady better than Nathan Peterman. Yes. Yeah, strong. That's one of my many takes. It's a good take. You had a long relationship, but you haven't had one for a little while.

I do have one. You have one now? Yes. Is it the same one from before or it's another one? God, no. No, no. So you're in another relationship.

So that's why you don't go out. Yeah. You just work and you're in a relationship. Partially that, yeah. Because I don't have to. You have to when you you're in another relationship. So that's why you don't go out. Yeah. You just work and you're in a relationship. Partially that, yeah. Because I don't have to. You have to when you aren't in a relationship. You don't when you are. Was it hard to meet somebody when you were more recognizable?

Well, funny story. I met him through work. Okay. Yes, because when we did work together, it was like, oh, this is, I can't tell if it's just because you're really good at producing the stuff that I do and anticipating my needs and understanding my voice and helping me be better

at being me. I can't tell if it's because you're really good at your job or if this is actually a thing. Or we have a little chemistry thing. So that was tough. So this is like a rom-com. It is.

It's like a Netflix movie. It is and it isn't. So yeah, I don't know. She's the wacky host of a sports show and she can't keep her life together. And he's the one who does. I keep forgetting that people listen to your podcast. Yeah. What does that mean?

So we'll leave it there. You don't think it sounds like a Netflix movie? No, it does. I'm saying like expounding upon my love life. I know I'm going to hear about it from people that don't listen to the things I do, but listen. Oh, I heard you on the Bill Simmons podcast. By the way, that's the number one thing when people recognize me.

Yeah. They're like, I heard you on the Bill Simmons podcast. It's the only thing anyone ever says. You haven't even been on in like two years. I know. But that's how they either found me or whatever. Well, we had a great first one. The Bill Simmons podcast.

Always. We had a great first pod. It's always the Bill Simmons podcast. Always. We had a great first pod. What was wrong with the second one? Well, I'm just saying the first one because we had like, there was a little backstory of people didn't know that you almost came to Grantland.

It's a good what if. It was a good what if. And then. And now you're working with Jacoby anyway. Hey, I went to ESPN, which is what you wanted. Yeah. Yeah.

You ended up at ESPN. I got there. Thanks. Ironically, we had a meeting, me, you, and Connor show. Mm-hmm. Was Connor there? In like 2014. Yeah.

I introduced you to Connor, and now he's the one who hired you. Extra ironically is that was right next to the office that I had been working out of before I went to Seaport. Yeah. Because that was at the, what was the name of that restaurant? It was right next to their Columbus Circle office. It's my fault. I fucked up because you were doing those guys and videos

and I didn't realize. I was working too hard. Yeah, you didn't do it. I didn't realize there was some Boston fan who was doing funny stuff on the internet that should have been working for Grantland and I missed it. And then you were on that Regis show

and I was like, what the fuck is this? Wait, she's a Pats fan? But now Jacoby helped launch our show. I know. He helps runis show. And I was like, what the fuck is this? She's wait, she's a Pats fan. But now Jacoby helped launch our show. I know. Helps run our show. So I know. And he moved back to New York with three kids, which he Instagrams. They're pain in the butt from what I've heard, but they're really cute pains in the butt.

So, I mean, he had three kids all under the age of three, which is like, it's not, not something I would do, but I also. I don't encourage it for any human being. I don't either, but I do support, you know, Jacoby and his lovely family. It is one of those things like you read the stories of when people are like trapped in a well and they just got to figure out how to get out of there and make it work.

That's what it's like to have three kids and two of them being twins like that. You just got to like get through the two years somehow. And part of it is probably by taking on another show and having to stay at work really late because that's when our schedule is. So he probably was like, Oh, this is nice. I don't know.

I don't know if it was the reason, but I can imagine he's like, this is a good excuse. Katie's on her phone. No, I just realized that he sent me an email and told me to say something to you. And I want to get it perfectly. Who's he?

Jacoby. Oh, I thought it was the new boyfriend. I and told me to say something to you and I want to get it perfectly. Who's he? Jacoby. Oh, I thought it was the new boyfriend. I was excited. Oh God, no. Tell Bill I said I hope he gets herpes. I promise. That's word for word. Is he back in the flow in New York?

Jacoby? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. He missed New York. I loved having him here, but ultimately I think New York is where he belongs. Yeah, I don't catch either of that. There's a seediness to New York that he just embraces. He'll end up at a Turkish bathhouse at like three in the morning one night.

Yeah, the other night we launched our show and we're all in the conference room like waiting to have a postmortem and Jacoby wasn't there yet. And so I said, somebody go get beers because we just need to drink a couple of beers because I think we're all on edge. So we went, got beers, came back and Jacoby comes in and then goes, oh, why'd you guys buy beers? I reserved a room across the street at a bar, food, drinks for us to celebrate the launch. Yeah. And I said, why didn't you tell him? Classic Jacoby. You didn't tell a single person that you did that. So we bought like two 30s. But now we have nowhere to put them in Stephen A's mini fridge in his office.

There's nowhere to put them. And he said, well, I didn't know if it was going to go well. And if it didn't go well, I didn't want to have to hang out with you all after. I was like, okay, that makes perfect sense. That's classic Jacoby. All three of those things. Not telling people, reserving the room. Like the nicest thing ever to do,

but to never even mention it or want credit for it until after. And then now it kind of actually complicated things because we had beer. What was your goal with structuring the show? What did you want to do? How did you want it to stand out? I wanted it to be a late night show for sports. And that's really all we had as our guiding principle. We played around with a lot of different things,

kind of like we did with Garbage Time. But I knew this time we had the ability to actually get an audience because we had an actual studio, whereas Garbage Time was the corner of a hallway. So I just wanted to- Garbage Time was stunningly cheap. It was incredibly cheap.

I remember I came to see you like May 2016 or something. And you were up in our podcast studio, which was vast compared to the actual television studio. I think I was in the other one too. Maybe it was earlier than that. I saw both. Yeah, it's small. We had one camera. You had to lock it.

I couldn't move. That's that cheapskate Michael Davis. He knows how to make a lot with a little. Cheapo. Yeah. Cheap English guy. But it feels like everybody's kind of trending that way now. Yeah. he knows how to make a lot with a little cheapo yeah cheap English guy but it is it feels like everybody's kind of trending that way now

yeah we do NBA desktop which has been very popular for Jason very great show shout out to Jason wait till you see that studio it's a studio

I thought I just thought it was the office no it's basically like that corner right there but with some posters it's like garbage time yeah

but you guys also embrace that. We tried to make a TV show. Well, you're trying, the OTT app is trying to be a TV network. Yeah, essentially. I mean, I told them to treat it like it's a TV show, even though it's not. Just treat it like a TV show. The tough thing, and this is boring corporate talk, but the tough thing is that we're not under the original content side. We're under the digital side in the org chart.

And so we don't have, I know Wild's just left, but like those people weren't over us. I mean, they're over us in the company, but they're not monitoring us and guiding us. We have digital people. So it's tough to make like a show without people who are like, here's how to time out your rundown. Here's how to, you know, do this and other TV stuff that I don't know because I came up in a weird way. You're right. That was boring corp talk.

Yeah, whatever. At least you advertised it correctly. Whatever, Bill. The digital stuff though. Your show has to look like a TV show. Yeah. I think the mistake some people make with internet shows, which we try not to do, is they make TV shows that are just for the internet.

Yeah. If somebody's watching on your phone, who cares? I don't care that you spent all this money to make a set look nice. And I don't need graphics. Yeah, I don't need a lot of- Like fancy graphics.

It just catch my attention immediately. And it took us a while to kind of figure that out. I'm not saying we've even figured it out, but at least the stuff we try to do now is internet stuff. And if we do the bigger stuff, you know, like we do the Game of Thrones post-game show, like that has to look like a TV show. Right.

That can't be like in the corner. How much of the stuff that The Ringer makes are you seeing and helping develop and approving? And how much are you just like, I hired the right people, I let them do their thing. A mix. Ultimately, you want people that are doing their own thing and bring it to you when it's in good shape. And then you can help it go from the 10-yard line to the end zone.

What's your title here? My title? Yeah. CEO. CEO. Boss. Founder. Founder.

Well, that's obvious. That doesn't really mean anything. That just meant something happened. It doesn't mean you're doing anything. You. Founder. Founder. Well, that's obvious. That doesn't really mean anything. That just meant something happened. It doesn't mean you're doing anything. You can found something. You're not doing anything. Founder is a good one.

Now, the thing we have here is we want people to feel like if they have an idea, it might happen. Because once you get to that spot, people think differently. They think like, oh, there's no ceiling on this idea and maybe this could happen. And the people that tend to succeed with us are the people that have ideas. How do you tell people their ideas are bad without making them upset? You do it.

This is a lesson I need to learn. You do it diplomatically. How? It's really hard. I remember when I was working for Jimmy's show, we would be sitting around the table for two hours pitching ideas for act one. And somebody would have an idea and it would just be silence and he would just be on his computer.

And his tactic was just to ignore the idea. Like it never, it just immediately died. And then if he liked something, his head would pop up or he'd laugh and he'd be like, oh, he likes that one. So it was like he was never rejecting it. But if he had no reaction, it was his own form of rejection. Yeah, that's really smart. I'm not as good at that. No, I could see that I could do.

What I have a hard time doing is being like an active part of the meeting and someone pitching an idea that they think is hilarious and looking him in the eye and being like, somebody did that three years ago. That's not funny. Yeah. Because then you see them go, oh, they get dejected. And then, you know, they're really not going to toss out another idea because you've now demotivated them.

But the thing what you've created or you're trying to create is you want people to have ideas, but their feelings aren't going to get hurt. It's like what Jacoby always says, that no bad ideas in a brainstorm. He says that every second. And he always says it right before he says a really bad idea. He goes, I have an idea. And again, no bad ideas in a brainstorm. It's like Jacoby, we get it. But then he always says the best idea after he says no bad ideas. And when he comes in and says, I have a great idea, it's never a good idea. It's very strange. Yeah. When he believes in his idea, I'm like, that doesn't work. And then when he says,

this is a bad idea, but I'm like, we started at Grantland. We would have these kind of these big round tables with everybody to bring one idea. And sometimes we would have like, all right, move Oscars are coming up. We're going to have a smaller pop culture group.

But then sometimes we would have like a giant idea summit. Like how many people? A summit. Yeah. That means it's got to like a giant idea summit. Like how many people? A summit. Yeah. That means it's got to be like 50 plus people. At Grandland, it was like basically everybody we had in the office. And everybody had to bring an idea. And one of the cool things was, it was literally everybody.

So like the intern, the assistant copy editor, a podcast producer, everybody had to have one idea and we'd go around the table. And what was interesting is some people would have really that one good idea that you would never expect. Yeah. So then when we came to the ringer and we're trying to figure out what to do with that, we went even bigger and we have these groups and it's like six people in a group. They come up with their best ideas, but then it gets fed into a larger thing.

And then we have a big summit and you just never know. Yeah. gets fed into a larger thing and then we have a big summit and you just never know yeah the thing is if you spend that time and you can come up with five six seven ideas that we can actually do stuff with that's a win if we go if you go seven for 300 which sounds terrible right that's you get seven ideas yeah so you know you just all about sample size it's all about you got to create an environment where people feel like they can have ideas and it's not a bad thing if it doesn't work. It's still a good idea. It just didn't work for what we're trying to do.

Yeah. I'm working on it. We had the best ideas meeting. I mean, I've been in better ones since, but we had one for Grantland and the 2014, we had an MBA meeting. We had all the best MBA people there. And it was like, we had like a murderer's row. And we just had this awesome four-hour meeting and everybody went around the room and there was like little like ego stuff going on because we had different people doing well. And it was just, I was like, this is it.

This is where we want to be. We had like so many good things come out of that. So we've tried to recreate that here. That's cool. In bigger ways. Yeah. I like the big ideas meeting. My. That's cool. In bigger ways. Yeah. I like the big ideas, Minnie. My advice would be.

We have that every week though. My advice would be like, you never want to say that idea sucked. What were you thinking? Okay. Oh my God. You're a moron. Oh, okay. So don't say those things.

Did we sign you to a long contract or can we get rid of you this week? I wouldn't say that. I'll avoid it. How many shows are you doing? I think the other day I heard the number 40, which feels like a lot, but here we go. One a week for 40 straight weeks? I think so. Are you going to have guests?

I'm trying to avoid making the same mistakes that I made on Garbage Time. And on Garbage Time, we had a lot of trouble booking guests because we did not have a dedicated booker and we built the show around having a guest segment. And so when we came into doing always late and I noticed that our guest booker books for get up and a bunch of those other shows that if they were to do a car wash, those shows are all at like 7am, 9., 9 a.m. So we would be like, you could get this guest, but he's already been on these two shows on your network

and you have to come in at 10 a.m. to do it and you get him for 20 minutes. And so I looked into the future and saw a world where we were always extending our day by coming in early to get a guest that's already been used on two other shows. And I didn't love that. And so I told us, like the staff, let's develop a show that does not need a guest.

Yeah. And then when we can get a great guest, let's make sure we have a way to fit that into. Fine. I'll fucking do it. Just ask me. I didn't want to end on that. I didn't. I'll do it.

It's fine. You're never in New York. I am. I'm actually coming in October. I'm very excited. When in October? Well, I'm not, I'm not telling America. No, I'm coming in October.

Okay. I'm going to just. I'm coming back a lot. I don't know if you know, but the Celtics are really good. I'm coming back East Coast a lot. So October 1st, I'm putting my calendar. Bill is coming. May come now.

You just said you're coming. I didn't tell you what week. My God. Yeah. You are the best and the worst at this. I want to come to the seaport. Are you allowed? I'm more than allowed.

Everybody I've ever had a problem with is gone, except for maybe like one or two. I can think of one or two that isn't. Yeah. But the people running it now I get along with. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know Jimmy P? Have you met Jimmy P yet? He tried to hire me twice at Yahoo. Really? Yeah now I get along with. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know Jimmy P? I do.

He tried to hire me twice at Yahoo. Really? Yeah. I like Jimmy P. He was at Yahoo? God, I should know more about him. His best friend's Mike O'Malley, the world's celebrity Boston fan. Yeah.

His best friend? That's his best friend. I didn't know that. Yeah. That's cool. Didn't he host Guts? Yeah. That's right.

That was your generation. Yes. I'm younger than you. I know him as the Rick. Okay. Because he is pan things. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. He's in, he's a good guy. Connor's a good guy. Connor's a great guy. Connor and I did a lot of shit together once upon a time. And you guys are good. Connor and I are really good. Yeah.

Okay. I don't know. Burke Magnus and I. I've met him twice. Holy cross. I met him in the cafeteria at Bristol once. And then I met him. I went to SummerSlam.

Yeah. SummerSlam. And I was in line at the beer thing, buying two beers for myself. And I felt somebody looking over my shoulder when I was signing my credit card thing. I was like, oh, it's going to be be a fan and he's like Katie Nolan I turned around I was like hey Burke I'm just holding two gigantic beers on my way down to seems like a nice guy Holy Cross that's really all that matters to you isn't it I just like yeah Holy Cross like oh what's he like I don't know but Holy Cross guys from Holy Cross

they like sports they know how to drink good hangs so simple that's what we that's what we do in our school so simple

yeah it's funny like uh I don't know I don't have any bitterness with the ESPN thing anymore it's like I haven't for a while it was like one of those

really bad bad bad breakups yeah yeah you lit the bridge on fire well the bridge was poorly constructed it was covered Well, the bridge was poorly constructed. It was covered in gasoline. The bridge was poorly constructed. But you lit it on fire.

The bridge was poorly constructed. Yes. But so it's good now. It's fine. There's a new bridge? I honestly don't care. I'm totally happy. I loved how it worked out.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like it didn't work out for you. You're fine. It's great. I love who I work with. I'm happy for whatever direction ESPN's going. I don't know. It's good. Who cares?

It's good. Let it all out. The thing is, when you get older, you're like, who fucking cares? Why did I care so much? You cared so much, though. I did. I cared too much. Yeah, you don't get to now say, who cares?

Because you did. I cared too much. When we couldn't hire you, I was so mad and so upset at so many people. And now I look back, I'm like, why did I care? Just move on to the next one. We were doing great. You were doing great. But I was like, what the fuck?

We had this. So yeah, I think I just got a little caught up in stuff. That's fair. It happens to the best of us. It happens. So you can come to Seaport then. But don't do that thing where you're like, maybe. It's not like I'm Hannibal Lecter

they're gonna wheel me in on a fucking stretcher with a metal mask on but you can't do the thing you did with Garbage Time where you were like maybe I'll come maybe I won't

okay I can come but I can only come for five minutes you gotta like we're a real show now why are you giving me that look first of all I went all the way

across New York City and what a what a what a sacrifice and I had all these freaking meetings that day. I know you did. And made it work. I know.

And how dare you? It was funny. It was good. We had you reading off a teleprompter, which was actually just a laptop. Yeah, that's right. It was a laptop. Oh my God. It was so low budget.

But everybody there, I don't know if it was clear, was freaking out because all those, you know, they're all just dudes that love Bill Simmons. So many dudes love Bill Simmons. Number one question everybody asks me. So what's Bill Simmons like? That can't be the- He's a dickhead. That can't in a million years be the number one question everyone asks.

Everybody wants to know what you're like. Like, don't you listen to him talk for hours? Haven't you done that for years? You know exactly what he's like. You know, it's funny. I was joking with you about how we were going to have our sellout morning show someday. Oh, yeah. And then ESPN actually made the sellout morning show.

Oh, my God. We didn't invite us. Get Up was our show. That was our show. Wow. What were they doing? We could have been Regis and- We joked about it for three years.

Regis and Kathie Lee. We were so ready to do that show with you. Oh, boy. We would have done it totally different than how Get Up is. I, yes. There would have been coffee. The first 15 minutes would have been about how tired we were. Yeah, no guess. We would have sat it totally different than how get up is. Yes. There would have been coffee. The first 15 minutes would have been about how tired we were. Yeah, no guests.

We would have sat. Super tired. Yeah, we would have sat at chairs, but no desk because there's no desk. Regis and Kathleen didn't have a desk. They would have said like, why aren't you guys? They would have been on our ears like, why aren't you talking about the Philly Atlanta game? Because we would have been talking about the half and half and the commissary. That just would have been.

Then we go to a break. They would have been mad. Yeah. and half and the commissary. That just would have been. Then we go to a break. They would have been mad. Yeah. Hey, maybe someday. Maybe someday. I don't know if I could wear makeup. I don't know if I could do mornings. I don't know if I could keep doing this podcast

because it's like 130 degrees in here. Yeah, the problem with this room. I see you tried because you've got one of those fans that makes no noise. This one makes a ton of noise. That's a Dyson, right? And it's supposed to make no noise. How many minutes one? Makes a ton of noise. Which that that's a Dyson. Right. And it's supposed to make no noise.

How many minutes are we at? Oh, great. We can wrap it up. I thought that was like 25. Anything else? Did we talk about my show enough? Yeah. It's on Wednesdays.

It's on the OTT app. Called ESPN Plus. I went to find it. You click on the ESPN OTT thing, which you now get if you have ESPN Insider. Which is nice, huh? You click the watch, which is a TV screen. Yeah.

All these shows come up. Yeah. And very clearly it says Always Late with Katie Nolan. That's me. Why is it 32 minutes? So that was an accident. We didn't time our show properly.

How many minutes should it be? It's going to be 22 to 28. I was going to say, you realize you can do like 24 minutes. Yeah, we can get away with less. It's actually harder for me to make less content than it is to make more. But we didn't get to rehearse that show because of things.

And so watching it back, I'm like, could have cut that, could have shortened that, could have done that. So, you know, show number one, I feel okay with how it went. Have you been on every ESPN Talking Head show? I haven't been on First Take. I haven't been on Get Up. I haven't been on, that might be it. No, I haven't been on get up I haven't been on that might be it no I haven't been on around the horn because they've asked me but I said I don't think it I don't think I fit in around the horn because if I'm next to somebody and they like even just digitally next to somebody and they

say something stupid I want to be able to say are you kidding like and talk about it instead of having to then go to me for my preackaged. I don't have good takes. I disagree. I heard you on sports radio once and I thought you were actually a natural sports radio person. What sports radio did you be on? It was like two years ago. You were on some weird Fox. It was like Fox Sports Radio.

What radio show would you have been on? Yeah, why did you listen to that? Because it was on my satellite. There was one night where me and Chris Carlin Hosted a radio show together I have I don't even I forgot about it Until you just brought it up

I don't even remember Where that came from I have a weird story I was driving home from here And the radio was on I was like That lady sounds like Katie And then I was like

That lady really sounds like Katie Why did you listen to that? I don't know it was on I listen to sports radio When I drive I like hearing the dumb takes I know but what are the odds That you heard That's really weird I've done sports radio one I drive I like hearing the dumb takes I know but what are the odds that you heard That's really weird

I've done sports radio one time You were good at it Thank you we talked about people not tipping I remember that And then a guy called in and called me the c-word No That happened? I was like sorry to the radio station

I bring that out of people What was your take on tipping just out of curiosity? That you should do it. The guy who called in said that you shouldn't have to. And I was like, that's just, that doesn't make any, like you're not understanding how the industry works.

Well, we both are former service industry graduates. Yeah. And I just, I don't know. Very pro tipping. I judge people when they don't tip. And I'm not saying you got to leave 50% and like show everybody how much money you make.

But if you're not going to tip and the person didn't do anything terrible, it's just like, ew. Where do you stand on takeout tipping? I do it because I make more money than I ever planned on making in my life. And it makes me feel selfish to not leave $5. Right. I don't know that I'd go 20% if I'm picking up a huge order and it doesn't seem to make any sense. But yeah, I tip. But I don't know that you have to. I just remember when I was a hostess and I would have to put in the takeout orders. If somebody left a tip, it was like the highlight of my day.

So I like to be the highlight of people's days. I remember when I was bartending, there were these two people that would come in and they would just always tip like 75%. And I would see these two and I would get so freaking happy. Like, oh, these guys. I love these guys. And they just kind of got it. The thing with, especially if you're in the whole world, and then you go in other bars,

and all the waiters and bartenders are tipping each other like crazy because they get caught up in it. That's what you should do. You turn into like a Goodfellas character. Yeah. I'm starting at 20%. Me too. And then I'm happy to get tinkered with that.

Okay, but we're not average Americans. No, I just, I was like this when I was not making any money. Yeah. I just feel like it starts at 20%. It also depends. Unless they fuck it up. If you're doing takeout, not even pickup, like literally takeout, like you walk into the bar, you sit at the bar, you order takeout.

If you're taking up a seat, you need to be tipping because if you're not drinking a beer and somebody could be sitting there and drinking a beer, you owe money to that bartender. What do you think about the new thing with where you sign on the screen and they turn the thing around? Oh, yeah. And they're kind of staring at you and it's like $1, $2, $3 or more. The reason I don't like that. You know they're going to look at it. Yeah, the reason I don't like that is because they do it at places like,

there's a place called, it's got a big sign outside of it that says tacos versus burritos, but I know that's not what it's called. I think it's called like a luchadoras or whatever, right by work. And they do it there. It's like a Chipotle essentially.

And they turn the thing around and I'm like, do I tip you? This doesn't feel like a... And then my brain's like, but you're the person who says you're supposed to tip all the time. So I'm like, well, I guess I should, but it's a weird precedent to set. Because I don't know if they're getting paid like waitresses. I don't think they are because it's a different type of industry. I don't know.

I forgot to ask you. This is $3. What? What's it like to be a woman in sports media? Well, we don't have time now this pod's running over but it's great I think we've now you've asked me every single time

we've done something together but it's been a running joke what it's like to be a woman people actually ask you that though Desus and Miro asked me my first time I looked at them and I said are you seriously going to ask me what it's like to be a woman and then I immediately felt bad because you could tell that somebody else told them to ask it.

And they were like, I don't know. We didn't know what else to ask you. So I was like, that's fair. That's fair. I'm really sorry. I think it's come even in the time I met you. It's come a long way where it would sound weird to ask that in 2014. But now it sounds super weird.

So there's a lot of women doing well in sports media. Nobody even thinks about Doris made the hall of fame. Oh God. That was big. Doris is the best basketball analyst we have in America. She's the, she's just the best. Have you hung out with her? No, I haven't met her yet. You haven't met Doris? No, I don't know if I'm ready to, I want to be a better, more impressive person before I meet Doris. You ever have that with people? I'm sure you don't. Um, where you're like, I don't want to be a better, more impressive person before I meet Doris. You ever have that with people? I'm sure you don't. Where you're like, I don't want to meet anyone until I am

a person they would be interested in knowing. Like I met Joan Rivers and I'm glad now that it happened because obviously she passed away. But I met her and I'm like, man, I wish I met you once I got to a place. Like eight years from now. Yeah. Where you could go, oh, I may have seen a thing you did once and I like it or I don't like it.

Either way. But this was just, I was just a random person. I think you're overthinking the Doris thing. Doris is cool. I know she's cool. Just go hang out with Doris. Maybe I can get Cassidy to introduce me. I did that with Berman.

What, that you wanted to impress him when you met him? No, I had a couple different chances to meet him, and I was like, you know what? It doesn't feel right yet. Yeah. And then at the 2013 ESPYs, which would be the greatest oral history of all time, Berman was there. And I was like, I'm feeling good. I've been on TV shows. 3030's going great.

I got Grantland. It's time. I'm going to go meet Berman. And he really appreciated it. and i was just like hey man i really appreciate you're one of the founding fathers um just thanks for everything you did i love working at espn and i know you're a big part of it so thanks then we talked for 20 minutes he's like six five really yeah he's giant he's a giant dude so he's definitely intimidating to go up to but But anyway, I would encourage you to go up to Doris. I met Bob Lee in a way that I didn't mean to.

He came into makeup and I was like, oh, I haven't put any thought into what I want to. But he's here and I have to. And so I just was, I think it was right after the sports Emmys and he had just won for something. So I said, congrats on the win last night. And he said, thanks. And he sat down and I was like, oh, that wasn't, he didn't say any other words. And then he looked over and said, Katie, I didn't even realize that was you. Welcome to the team.

And he shook my hand. He was the nicest guy. He just wins an Emmy for being Bob Lee. It's not even a category. Yeah, he should. He just shows up and they're just like, Bob Lee, here's yours. Costas wins one every year. I think Bob Lee should win one every year.

Yeah. Is he officially done? Seems like he's out at NBC. What's he going to do next? It's tough when you work at a place, but you don't want to do Olympics and football anymore, but the reason you're there is for Olympics and football. It's not a lot of outs. Hmm.

So I don't know. I'll have to listen to your podcast. He's probably made a lot of- I don't know what he does next. Which one? I listen to all of your like, what's going on in sports media podcasts. Oh, the sports reporters? Yeah.

I don't do a lot of those. No, you did one with some recently with somebody. I did one with Jason Gay and Brian Curtis. No, not that one. But I did listen to that one. Like recent, recent. You had somebody on as a guest on, I think, your show. Who was it? I don't know.

Jim Miller? It might have been Jim Miller. Yeah. Yeah. So I listened to that. I was like, oh, interesting. All these things that I. Thought you knew or things you didn't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I listened to that. I was like, oh, interesting, all these things that I didn't know. Thought you knew or things you didn't know.

No, it's interesting to keep a finger on the pulse. I will say the OTT app is super important for them and should be and is probably the future of Disney's entire business is merging that with the Netflix movie model for the Disney movies. It's a good thing, but it also makes me nervous. Good to plant the flag. Makes me nervous of like, I want to be on a thing that matters to the network, but I don't want a bunch of people sending me notes about how to change my show because it's important

to the network. You know what I mean? I don't want a bunch of executive eyeballs. It's really difficult to work with. It seems like a recurring theme. What do you mean? How is that difficult? I don't want a person who doesn't understand my show to be like, cut this joke.

It's like, let us do our thing. Just trust me. I wish there was more trust in all sports media. Nobody's ever like, go ahead. They keep a watchful eye because I say stupid things sometimes. Oh, the sports media whatever's? No, like the bosses in sports media. The executives. Like the bosses in sports media. The key to ESPN is you never want to end up on an email chain that has started with like a Richard Deitch link.

Where it's like, anybody see what Katie said in this whatever? And then it gets forwarded and then it goes and then it starts getting forwarded up. And that's where you don't want to be. Maybe happen the second week there, but yes. When I was there, the rule was never say anything that will get you in the sports business journal in a bad way because Bodenheimer read the sports business journal. He was the boss before Skipper,

but he read every inch of the sports business journal. And if anything bad about it was in there about ESPN, he'd be like, what's this? Like he didn't, he was so high up, he barely knew what was going on because he was just doing billion dollar deals. Well, that's what's scary now is I feel like Sports Business Journal was at least a trade publication. But now I feel like there's a bunch of websites that exist, this is a hot take,

only because the executives of sports media companies read them to see what's going on. 100%. And a lot of the people who work at those websites aren't distinguished journalists. A lot of them are people that just wanted to talk about what's happening in sports media. And so like executives are reading. The things are shockingly bad sometimes. Yeah, and sometimes they're really wrong.

And you never want to be that person that tweets out, hey, you got this wrong. But I read a bunch of articles about me during the time I wasn't working that were shockingly inaccurate. And you're just kind of like, someone's going to read that

and take that as gospel. And that's not fair. Why do you get away with doing that? That's never happened to me. I don't know what that feels like. Everything ever written about me was so accurate. It's just, it's just frustrating to watch people that aren't, don't have journalistic ethics covering us. And then knowing that our bosses are all reading it. It's like, what? Well, you feed off like the power of, you know, like the higher off like the power of, you know, like the higher ups are probably, well, you know, one thing that happens, especially the podcasts, they have somebody transcribe the transcripts.

Stupid. Which is just, if you can't be bothered to listen to the podcast, you don't get to have the information that was divulged. Right now we're in a transcript. Yeah, that's great. And things are being highlighted. I love everyone at ESPN and I think that they are just looking forward to the future, you know? Eyes on the prize. So you're at ESPN and I think that they are just looking forward to the future, you know? Eyes on the prize.

So you're at ESPN's Katie Nolan? That's me. You're at the ESPN OTT apps, Katie Nolan? I don't know. ESPN OTT? What is it called? ESPN OTT? ESPN Plus. You keep calling it OTT. I keep calling it ESPN Plus. ESPN Plus. It's called ESPN Plus. Are they cutting stuff

out and putting it on SportsCenter? What do you mean? Like, are they cutting from our show and putting it on Linear? Yeah, like little two-minute things and putting it. I think there's a goal to do that. I don't think there was anything in the first show that warranted it. But I think there's going to hopefully be, like, cross-promotion, you know, on Linear. But I don't know.

There's also rules about putting something behind a paywall and then giving some of it away. What rules? I think there's, like like only a certain amount of fcc rules a certain amount of minutes of i don't know somebody is paid to know this and it isn't me all right so you're gonna sleep better no i'm not i'm gonna try but got a show to make it's 24 minutes what should we talk about next week so by the time people hear this, the show will have happened already. I think the thing with sports now is you have to play it by ear with everything. Everything is so fast now. The cycle is crazy.

There's so much news every day. Just moves. I just remembered I had a bunch of words that I asked my staff what I should like. Give me a word and I'll say it in the Bill Simmons podcast. And I didn't say any of them. So just really quick. I had an extraordinary experience here. Oh, extraordinary is a good word.

Even though the cooling system in your studio is a little bit dilapidated. But it does feel, I like the way it feels like it's really portable. You know, like you could pick up and do this podcast anywhere. But the heat is making this an arduous endeavor. Arduous, another good one. Well well we were supposed to be in my office no it's perfect wow you're letting it come over you're not leaving it at the door when you walk in

Kyle what are you doing with this girl tonight we're going to get her license back get it back it was taken away it was reckless driving that's tough to get charged with reckless driving Get it back. It was taken away. It was. For what? Reckless driving. Reckless driving? That's tough to get charged with. Wet reckless, I guess.

Reckless driving. Wet reckless? Is that what you just said? Yeah, it's when you have a good lawyer and you don't get a DUI, I think. It's literally called wet reckless driving. I know. It sounds like a video or something, right? Wet reckless driving.

That should have been the title of your show. Wet reckless driving with Katie Nolan. Wet Reckless Driving? Is she from a rich family? How do you get out of a DUI? You cry, I think. Oh, God. Well, that's why it's wet.

That makes sense. This is what you're missing, not living in LA. Yeah, because I take Ubers everywhere and or a subway. Are you drinking kombucha? Disgusting. Tommy's very LA now. Disgusting. I forgot to ask you, how much shit do you get about the Pats these days

not a lot not a lot no and maybe I'm just immune to it of like oh the cheater all that stuff has died down New York City

they're not throwing it at you well I think because we just lost a Super Bowl that's all they're really talking about right now and I don't really care I mean I cared

but I don't I mean it's fine why you wanted me to say I get a ton of shit and then my life is miserable you seemed very disappointed when I said it was fine no I didn't know what it was like in New York I don't I mean it's fine why you wanted me to say I get a ton of shit and then my life is miserable you seemed very disappointed when I said it was fine no I didn't know

what it was like in New York I didn't know how contentious it is again I don't live in the house so it's not not like I walk around wearing a shirt that says Pats every day

you should I know you should at least do it on Sundays Katie I do good luck with your show it was good to see you again I'm sorry it's so hot in here

I'm sorry about Kyle I'll see here. I'm sorry about Kyle. I'll see you in October. Yeah, maybe. Some vague day in October, maybe. Maybe. Yeah, that'll be a no by next week. Could happen. Yeah, could.

Bye. Bye. Thanks so much to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to check them out at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to TheRinger.com, The Ringer Podcast Network, and The Rewatchables, where you can find the 20th anniversary rounders. Thanks to TheRinger.com, The Ringer Podcast Network, and The Rewatchables, where you can find the 20th anniversary rounders. Thanks to Gillette.

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All you have to do, special offer code SIMMONS5, like the number five at checkout. Enjoy free shipping every fourth order, free with subscription. Visit Gillette online at gilletteondemand.com. To get started, we'll be back later in the week with more. A lot of good guests this month. We are absolutely overloaded with great guests. I will see you

later in the week. I don't have feelings within. On the wayside, on the front side of the road. I don't have feelings within.