The Bill Simmons Podcast - Knicks Chaos, Oscar Picks, Worst 2019 Movies, and a Claire Danes Interview, With Brian Koppelman and Wesley Morris | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: February 5, 2020

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by longtime friend and Knicks fan Brian Koppelman to discuss the state of the Knicks, Steve Mills’s departure, the possibility of Masai Ujiri taking over, and more (2:27). Then Bill sits down with Wesley Morris of The New York Times to make Oscar picks and discuss 2019 movies (32:05). Finally, Bill talks with actress Claire Danes about acting as a child, some of her past work including ‘My So Called Life,’ ‘Romeo + Juliet,’ and ‘Little Women.’ They also discuss the final season of ‘Homeland,’ premiering February 9 (1:04:12). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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on that one. Please check it out when you have a chance. We also have rewatchables coming up this week. Once upon a time in Hollywood, that's happening. We did it. We taped it at Sundance and pretty excited about that one as well. Hey, one more thing. A heads up on Thursday, Rosillo and I are going to be doing our second annual pseudo live trade deadline podcast. We're going to start taping at probably like 2.15 Eastern time before the trade deadline, as the trades are starting to go all the way through the actual deadline and then the next hour. And it'll probably be about two hours. And then we'll try to get that up as fast as we possibly can on late Thursday afternoon,

East Coast time, as well as on our Ringer YouTube channel as well. So keep an eye out for that and keep your ears out for that as well. Coming up, we're going to talk to Brian Koppelman about the New York Knicks. We're going to talk to Wesley Morris about the Oscars that are coming up this Sunday. And then an interview I did with Claire Danes, who has Homeland coming back a little bit later this month. First time she's been on the BS pod. Very excited about this one. This is a fun podcast. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

All right. Every time something traumatic happens with the Knicks, we tend to have this guy on. He's my friend who is one of the co-creators of Billions, as well as he wrote Rounders, and most importantly on his IMDb, appeared on the Godfather 2 rewatchables. Brian Koppelman, if this has been Godfather 3 as a basketball team for 20 solid years now,

there's no end in sight and now there's another savior being dangled, Masai Ujiri, who is currently running the Toronto Raptors, who won the title last year and have a chance to win the title again this year. And now he has become the new savior. Do you even believe this anymore when the,

when the latest savior gets thrown out for the Knicks? No. And also, I mean, to call it the Godfather three, you know, I hate the Godfather three, but I mean, this is so much worse than the Godfather three. This is like a middle school play version of The Godfather 3. I mean, honestly. But with Sofia Coppola. At least The Godfather 3

had some good performances in it and, you know, was Coppola. This is just as bad as it gets. Look, I was talking to Sammy about this earlier today and he was like, there's no difference between this. Dolan gets the chance to fire Dolan, right?

The Garden's chanting finally, and I get too many people for him to throw them all out, because you know, Bill, that Dolan is like an ineffective WWE heel. He's like pointing and trying to get people thrown out of the garden when they're chanting against him, realizing he's just going to get more heat that way. And I guess the chance got so big that he decided he had to fire Steve Phillips. But the timing made this particularly crazy

because we have the trade deadline coming up at 3 Eastern time on Thursday. And usually you want like a stable front office situation as you head into the trade deadline and you have a bunch of expiring contracts, all of whom you've signed while kind of dangling out that, hey, if we get these guys in, we'll be able to trade them for lots of stuff.

And now you have front office dissension 48 hours for the deadline. Well, the Knicks have always been, since Dolan's taken over, about as stable as Gary Busey in 79 at a Halloween party. So it's not like they've ever been selling stability. Yeah, that's true. But of course, you're right, man. Obviously, Dolan reacts emotionally. I met some kids who work at the garden. They sell stuff at the garden.

They're not even involved with basketball. They sell gear. I met these three kids who were part of the selling of stuff there. They were like, you know, the whole garden, everybody kind of runs away when Dolan's walking down the halls. I was like, what do you mean? He goes, no, they go, he's the meanest guy. Everybody else will say hello to you, shake your hand. Nolan won't even look at you, won't say hi to you.

And it creates this vibe in that building that's so ugly. And, you know, all Nolan's really thinking about, I guess, is what people's opinion of him is. And if he can remember a one, a 145 blues progression for his band. And that's just not what's needed in somebody running what was once, we can't even say it's like one of the most storied franchises anymore. Right? 1970 and 73 are a long time ago, Bill. I think calling it a storied franchise would be an overshoot.

I think they have generations of fans, but like we did a book of basketball podcast a couple of weeks ago about the LJ's four point shot and that whole game. And what I didn't realize when I was doing the research was that Dolan officially took over the team a few months later. And since then you're talking, we're on now our third decade of sad Knicks memories. I guess my question, so I see Messiah gets thrown out. And to me, it reminds me a lot of the Theo

Epstein with the Cubs in, you know, last decade, the beginning when they went for him. And he was this proven commodity who had done the impossible, had brought the Red Sox a World Series, ended the 86-year drought. And the biggest challenge left in baseball was the Cubs. Now, in this case, they didn't have somebody like James Dolan, but they had, whether it was a curse, whether it was a malaise, whatever it was, it just seemed like impossible that the Cubs were ever going to win the World Series. And Theo said, you know what?

It's not impossible. Here's my plan. We're going to really attack this over the course of five years. And then he actually pulled it off and they won the World Series. And if I'm Masai and I already won with Toronto, I already did that. I already climbed the mountain. He can leave now and the fans will be super grateful that he brought them. He made one of the great trades in the history of the league, brought them a title, set them up pretty

well. They have Siakam as their next star, all that stuff. Now, if I'm him, I'm looking at the Knicks. And is that my Cubs? Is that the biggest mountain to climb in basketball? I would say it is, right? Yeah. So there's no doubt that that's true, that if you could do this, you are a savior and you're remembered in this city and the league forever. But to not do this with pop culture references, just to talk really straight, I don't understand why a smart person like Messiah, who is as successful as you're saying, and who pulled off something so great would put himself in such a toxic situation in a way it's not, cause it's not just like you're saying, as you said with Theo and Theo, who, who's a sort of a hero of one of the episodes of billions, uh, season three, when, when we say Billy being never won, but, uh, Theo did, but the,

and I'm a big, you know, I, so I'm a big fan of this idea of somebody coming in with, uh, uh, who understands how, you know, I would have loved Daryl Morey to come in, like, but why would anybody like that choose, especially when you have a lot of choice, choose to put themselves in a position where this guy has capped. He's literally shot every single, to bring it back. I mean, he is like the Rosado brothers. He just garrotes you at the first moment that he can. If I can bring it back to a pop cultural reference. You double pop culture'd it.

I do feel like, yeah, I did. I just don't think that, or maybe I look at it, life on Nick's head, maybe I just can't imagine that this guy would do it. When you think about it, Bill, why would he come here to do this? It kind of doesn't track for me because Dolan has each person, whether it's Walsh, and we could go down, every person has been in the job, but at a certain moment, Dolan just decides to blame them, to try to escape his own blame.

I mean, he's talking about a guy who threw Charles Oakley out of the garden. Right. Well, maybe, you know when sometimes people get older and they get kind of crazier each year, especially when they hit like 70, they get crazier or their health starts breaking down or whatever. Maybe with Dolan, it'll go the other way. Maybe he'll start to get like more confident. Maybe, maybe.

Well, that's not, I think that that's, I don't, I don't think that's really, I don't think that's in play. I mean, I do think, no, and I don't really, look, I'm not a guy who's a big believer in ideas like karma, but I do think that the NBA gods should reward, I think that finally the fact that Zion and Ja were one and two, and RJ was three, should finally make up for the frozen envelope

and us getting Patrick. And we should start, we should start. Well, let's talk about that for a second, because in 2009, you lose out on Curry by one pick. You have this GM in front of you with two picks who, who is just throwing darts as a hundred miles an hour with a blindfold on and somehow misses Curry twice. And then, but unfortunately there's, there's one other team in front of you before Curry can get to you.

And the Warriors, who were about as incompetent as it gets, are smart enough to take Curry. And you end up with Jordan Hill. Then 10 years later, and we knew Ja was going to be good. It's not like this is a surprise that Ja... I was dead.

I was actually on your podcast that night. Yeah. And I said the fact that we didn't get Ja killed me. I knew it. I mean, I think a surprise that Ja. I was dead. I was actually on your podcast that night. Yeah. And I said the fact that we didn't get Ja killed me. I knew it. I mean, I think that was very odd. We knew it was bad. I still, I'm still an RJ Barrett fan. And I think he's just been in the wrong situation.

Every conceivable respect. Coaching, the organization itself, the roster they've made up. Everything, everything is set up for him to fail. With that said. Yeah, all of it. What Everything is set up for him to fail. With that said, what Ja is doing as a rookie in Memphis, I mean, they're 14-5 in their last 19 games. This is a team that Andre Iguodala

refused to even report to. They were going to be a lottery team. It's a team that has a top six protected pick at the Celtics' own that we just assumed was going to roll over and become unprotected a year from now. Now it's going to be like, they might make the playoffs. And it's really because of Ja and what he brings to the table night after night. And I think, look, all due respect to the

Memphis fans, they've had some playoff teams. They've had it pretty good the last, I would say, 15 years, dating back to Pau Gasol and all that stuff. If you put John on MSG, the sky's the limit. I think he would be the biggest star in New York. And I think if he was doing the stuff he's doing on the Grizzlies for the Knicks, this is like Jeter stuff. I'm going right there immediately to Jeter. It's crazy. You're correct. It's crazy that there are two guys in the league now,

two new players who are, if you know, if they don't get hurt, if lifestyle doesn't, if all the sort of variables don't happen, these are guys who for the next, they're going to define the league, those two dudes for the next 15 years.

And yeah, they'll be in the first wave. Yeah. And, and neither of in the first wave. Yeah. And neither of them were in New York, and either of them could have. Once it was down to the final three, and it was clear we were one of the final three, we had a 66% chance of getting one of them, and of course we didn't.

And you can't blame Dolan for that, especially if like I said, I don't believe in the woo-woo stuff. On the other hand, it is kind of, it is kind of right that Dolan doesn't get to ruin those guys because I have no doubt that don't imagine this, just play this game with me. We get Zion, Zion tweaks his knee. Do you really think that Dolan would have allowed Zion the five months to recover? I say no chance. I say he would have

forced and pushed and hassled him back onto the court. They wouldn't have known how to let the kid grow. And I think it's possible there's a scenario where Zion comes back, hurts himself, and is never the guy who's going to be the best player in the league. I don't know what to believe with that

because I keep hearing these conflicting reports about Dolan, what he's like to work for. Obviously, not great at building an atmosphere around a franchise, dealing with the press, your story about like employees kind of being scared if he's around, stuff like that. But I've always heard on the basketball side,

he stays out of the way and that's kind of the problem. The problem on the basketball side is he continually hires the wrong people. Really the only person he hired that was a defensible hire was Donnie Walsh, who he got at like an advanced stage. But when you look at the stuff that Donnie Walsh did, he really did set them up pretty well heading into the 2010s. And then Dolan, now this is where you say, well, he actually does overrule because Dolan came plowing in and demanded to do everything possible. He made the Carmelo thing happen. So that's what makes me think.

And you know, he didn't have to give up all those players. No. He was willing to give up more players than they were even asking for. Right. So that makes me think he is a meddler. Well, and I would say this to just add to it. So as you know, like I study these kind of guys, right? These billionaires, the guys who made the money themselves, the ones who are, who've inherited it.

And here's the thing about Zion. Let's say you're right about him staying out of the way of basketball, Rich. But to a guy like Dolan, who's a guy who makes himself open for the Eagles, right? I mean, you got to really think about that. I'm not even saying it to be fun. Like, actually think about this guy, this billionaire's kid, who's convinced his friends to allow him to open for the Eagles.

That's what his ego needs. That like, he needs to stand in front of 100,000 people in a stadium or, you know, 30,000 in the garden and play his stupid blues songs and bask in the bullshit applause, right? So if you gave that guy a crown jewel like Zion, he would have not been able to help himself, but to demand that he, you know, just like, I'll tell you who he's the most like. He is the most like John Larroquette in Stripes. You know how when John Larroquette in

Stripes is like, the army's trained you to fire that mortar. So they're like, but what coordinates, sir? And he's like, fire the mortar. And they do, and they kill Sergeant Holka. Yeah. Or they knock Sergeant Holka out. Yeah, knocking that. I mean, that is what Dolan would be like, right?

He would say, put the kid on the floor. And they would go, but Mr. Dolan, he would go, I paid good money for this kid. People are in the garden and put him on the floor. And I don't even think if you look at the history and legacy of this team under him, it's been one thing like that after another. He's just ruined players. Look at Frank. You put Frank on a good team with a good coach and a smart GM, and that guy's really contributing, I think, in a meaningful way. And now who knows if he's ever going to be a great NBA player.

Maybe not. So you're saying Zion, if he had been drafted by the Knicks, would have ended up playing base for JD in the straight shot because Dolan would have wanted to get him, to glom onto him in a bunch of different ways. It's an interesting theory. I do wonder, though, as you know, I glom onto him in a bunch of different ways. It's an interesting theory. I do wonder though, as you know, I'm a big believer in karma and the gods deciding and all that stuff.

And I do think there's something to it. The fact that they were a pick away from Curry and then had the two out of three chance with John Zion and end up three. It almost feels like it can't be a coincidence. It can't be a coincidence. As Sammy said to me, this has to put us back. You got to take the Ewing thing off the table and this and just say, we missed out on two generational talents and Curry 10 years ago.

And we should now be, we should now be square for having gotten, for having gotten Patrick. All right. So let's bring it back to Masai. Yes. Given everything we just laid out, doesn't that make it in a weird way, even more enticing? If you do this, if you change the culture around the league's biggest, I mean,

the biggest teams in the league are the Knicks and the Lakers. You can say they're 1A, 1B, whatever you want to do. They certainly have the most media covering them. They certainly have, they're in the running for most fans. If you just talk about most total fans, most generations of fans rooting for them, they're probably number one.

It's either them or the Celtics. But I would put it, I'd flip it to you this way, though. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I would flip it to you this way.. Yeah. I hear, I hear what you're saying. I would flip it to you this way. You're a person who's been in this position of having places want you. Don't you think, especially experienced, like Masai's experienced now, right? He's one. He's seen what it's like in a good situation.

Like don't you get to a point as you get just a little older and a little more experienced where you start weighing this stuff slightly differently and your quality of life starts to matter a little bit. All right, so I'm going to flip that around. Remember when Ben Affleck decided to be Batman? Yes. He was on like an all-time hot streak, right? Yes. He had turned it around with Gone Baby Gone and The Town. He did Argo, wins the Oscar. He does Gone Girl. He works with Fincher and he's really good in that movie.

Are we going to mention his appearance on your show in this? No, no, that's later. That's not part of the run. No, this is when I'm still at Grantland. This is like 2014, 15 range. And I wrote a mailbag about why he wanted to be Batman. I was just guessing. I was like, that dude hit rock bottom. He just staged one of the most amazing comebacks in Hollywood history. And now this is like his version of trying to go for 19 and 0 with the Pats. This is when the Pats were going 19 and 0. It's like, it's not just enough for winning the Super Bowl. We're going 19 and 0. We're going all out. We're going to make this happen.

The Batman thing for him was the 19 and 0. It was like, I know I'm a heavy Super Bowl favorite. I know I just did something incredible. Now I want to go 19 and 0. I'm going to pull off Batman and I'm going to impress my kids. I'm going to take my kids to this Batman movie and they're just going to be impressed. And that's my 19 and 0. And I wrote this and then he admitted

that that was why he did it. It wasn't just enough to have the comeback. It was like you cement it with the exclamation point. And for Masai, at some point you want to go, if you're a competitor and you have real belief in yourself, you're going to make a run at the 19-0. And I think that's the Knicks job.

You pull the Knicks thing off. You make them a contender again. It's a four-year plan. You're going to get a ton of leeway. You change the culture and you create a contender. That's the 19-0 if you win it. If you actually win the title, that's the 19-0. I can argue. Those are the bright lights.

And I love Affleck. We made a movie together but maybe the worst movie of both of our careers. I still love the guy. I would have loved to have seen him have a long run as Batman and for that thing to be great.

When you chase these things that are outside of your not just comfort zone, I just comfort zone. I just think that there's no, I don't know him inside. Have you spent time with him? Do you know him?

So I've spent time with him a couple of times. We, including he did a podcast with me, I would say two and a half years ago, two and a half, three years ago. He's a genuinely impressive guy and he's a really thoughtful guy. And I can't emphasize this part enough. Incredibly well respected in NBA circles. I would say he is the number one, most, most respected executive. I think he's a really meaningful guy to the league and probably doesn't get enough. The basketball

without borders, that whole thing that, that he's doing with Adam, I would say if Adam was having a protective, you know, when you have the expansion draft and you can protect people, he would be one of Adam Silver's five guys that it'd be like, I'm protecting this guy for the next 20 years. I want nothing bad to happen to him. So if you put that guy in charge of the next. I think you answered your question. I think you just answered your question. All right. But if you're, but if you're Adam, no, no, but maybe I didn't though, because think you answered your question. I think you just answered your question. All right, but if you're Adam... I didn't answer your question.

No, but maybe I didn't, though, because if you're Adam, the single most important thing you can have right now is a good Knicks team. You got everything else in place. But if you're Adam, do you really say to that guy, if you're Adam, do you say to that guy, when that guy calls you and says,

man to man, friend to friend, I need to know, can I make this work? Because that's what you ask when you're given a shot at a job like that, right? Yeah. Do you think this can actually work? Can I make it work? And do you really think that any of the people Messiah respects who know, if he calls Phil, if he calls Adam, that any of those people are going to say to him

yes, do it well, so Adam, if he's really if he really thinks he might have a chance I think he would give the answer of, look do it, get as much amass as much power and check as many

boxes as possible, no meddling boxes as possible, and I will help you. I will help make this work for you. So that's interesting. I will do everything I can to make you succeed if you can pull this off. So you think Adam would get in there and body block a little bit? I think he has to. It's the crown jewel of the league, them and the Lakers. Those are the two teams that matter to them the most. None of the, everyone else, if the NBA is like a giant Irish Catholic family,

they're the two favorite sons and daughters. They just are. Everyone else is like, whatever, where's Jimmy today? I don't know, he left three hours ago. The Knicks and the Lakers are the teams they care about. And that's it. So they need them to be good. And what happened last year to have those guys assess the Knicks who, and they wanted to go there and assess that situation.

And Durant and Kyrie were like, we're actually going to go to Brooklyn and team that has no history. And the irony of that, you just saw it with Kobe and you know, the city is still broken and it's going to be broken for a long time by what happened. But there were arguments last summer about, is this a Qu Clippers town or a Lakers town now? Oh God, two basketball city now. And it's like, no, it's a Lakers town. The Clippers could win three titles in a row. It's

never going to be a Clippers town. It's a Lakers town. That's what it is. That's it. The conversation is over. And you just saw it because what happened with Kobe and the outpouring and the grief and everything like that was not only the biggest sports tragedy I think I've ever seen, it's in the running for biggest celebrity tragedy I've ever seen. I've never seen a city react like this and it's still going. We're talking 10 days later. And so my point is what the Lakers mean to LA, I still feel like the Knicks mean that to New York and Brooklyn, they can make the finals, they can do whatever. And it's just never gonna, never going to be the same ever.

You're correct. By the way, I realized the right Knicks analogy. It's not Godfather three, it's Boondock Saints. The next year, because there's nothing you could do to turn Boondock Saints into a Godfather. Right. It's just always going to be Boondock Saints. The next year, because there's nothing you could do to turn Boondock Saints into a God. Right. It's just always going to be Boondock Saints. So that's where I think we are sadly.

And, um, you know, you bring the Kobe tragedy into it. Obviously none of this is, that's sad. That's, that's actual,

you know, as soon as you mentioned that all the light kind of goes out of the conversation to me because it is so. Right. It's a different, It's a different conversation. As a sports fan, as a basketball fan, you can't even, nobody can even the second you bring it up and I flash on all that again. It's, um, you know, it's just, you've got punched by it.

Talking about the world of just sports and not life stuff. The Knicks sports wise are the biggest sort of, it doesn't even, but the Knicks sports wise are a total train wreck. And, um, look, I hope you, you should call him aside today and please ask him, uh, you know, please ask him to come. If he wants a cameo on billions, he's got it. He comes from the Knicks, but maybe that's the thing that's going to get them, you know,

get them over the edge. Well, I just don't see any other way that they can turn this around. Like even you had the Lakers, they were becoming a train wreck along the lines of what the Knicks are. And the reason it was able to turn around was because LeBron James wanted to live here. And that's it. It had really nothing to do with the Lakers, Magic Johnson.

But also you can't compare Jeannie, but as bad as that was with the Magic leaving and Jeannie, as bad as all that shit was. Right. It wasn't toxic. You cannot compare it. You cannot compare it. That's just incompetence. That's not Machiavellian evil.

No, it wasn't. Which I think is what is going on at the Garden. Well, it wasn't, you know, it was incredibly dysfunctional, which I think if you're going to be favorable to the Knicks, you would say it's just an impossibly, incredibly dysfunctional place. But I think the difference is LeBron's like, I'll make it work. I'm fine. I really want to live in Los Angeles.

I don't think there's a scenario where you have an NBA player go, I'm going to throw away every reservation I have. I just want to live in New York. And the Knicks make the most sense for me because we just had this with Durant. Durant wanted to move to New York and guess what? He didn't play for the Knicks. Well, you're not bringing up your friend, Rich Kleiman. Yeah. Right. So that's the other guy who could really take the job, right? I mean, that's what everyone always thought was going to happen.

Yeah, but if you're going to do that, do that a year ago when he could still potentially steer Durant to be a Knick. But... Sure. Yeah, I mean,

it's funny because I make fun of the Knicks a lot and the Knicks fans have reached this point where, you know, they're like, they're like Italians.

It's like, no, no, only we can make fun of us. You don't get, you don't get to say anything. It's just us. I'm half Italian, they're like Italians. There's like, no, no, only we can make fun of us. You don't get, you don't get to say anything. It's just us. I'm half Italian. I can say that. Um, but you know, I, I, I just think it sucks to have a bad Knicks team. I'm old enough to remember growing up with hearing the Willis and Clyde stories and all that stuff. I'm old enough to remember the great Bernard King season. He's still the most terrified I've ever been with a Celtics opponent. I'm old enough to remember

all the Riley's Knicks stuff. And the thing that I miss, and this is what made me think about it with the John Morant, is it's still an awesome place to either be at a basketball game or watch a basketball game that's being televised

if MSG is in that state of mind. And I've made that point 10,000 times on my pod, but we're just losing that every year we lose a year where it would be this incredible basketball kind of atmosphere. And, you know, we're seeing this now with the Clippers, they get Paul George to get Kawhi and the crowd's dead two thirds of the time. And, and a lot of times the guys aren't even playing together. There's no real history with the team other than the 5,000, 6,000 season ticket holders who never gave up their tickets.

And it's just a weird vibe. It's artificial. They haven't won anything yet. The fans don't really know the players. If you put that Clippers team in MSG for a month, people would lose their fucking minds. And that's the bummer. Well, it's a good analogy to the Nets, right? People care about the Nets. They cheer the Nets, but the Nets don't move to City at their fucking minds. And that's the bummer. Well, it's a good analogy to the Nets, right? Like people care about the Nets.

They cheer the Nets, but the Nets don't move the city at all. No. And I like the Nets and I like Sean Marks. I like the guys who run the Nets, but the Nets don't mean anything in New York City. They just don't. And it would take decades for that to flip. And that's why I brought up- I mean, when KD plays next year, like when when Katie plays next year, if they go on some insane run,

I could see the city getting caught up in a little bit of a fever. And I think then maybe the Dolan hatred plays into it. But, but, but as of right now, the nets don't, they don't, they're just not part of the fabric of the town.

Um, it's a mixed town. You don't see nets hats really, you know, you'll see sometimes like at night, you see a Nets hat when someone's wearing it just for style but sports fans are not walking around the city wearing Nets hats they're just not well I wish you the best

I hope Masai look I think he's done a great job in Toronto and I would also really respect and appreciate if he just said you know what, I'm really happy here. I've built something great. I want to stay.

Right. And that would be awesome. I think more people should do that. I'm a big loyalty guy. Everything I've said on here, I'm going to take back and if I see you

all-star weekend, because we talked about that we might both be there for like the Thursday or Friday. Yeah. If we're in a room and Masai's in the room, will you bring me over

and introduce me to him and then I can try to sell him on this, even though I know it's, I'll say everything I don't believe. I'll just lie to him for a half hour. Will you put me next to him? So that's a really good way to end this because Messiah will almost definitely be at All-Star Weekend

and he's going to be sports hit on by Knicks fans. Like he's the only girl at an Air Force bar or something. Yeah, everybody's going to be making a run at him. I just want to know, will you be my Masai wingman? I'd have to be your wingman. The thing is, I don't know if you guys

are going to make it better or worse. You're going to be so desperate you might scare him off. Masai! Just be my wingman. My favorite player is Dave DeBuscher. Please bring Jordan to my life again. It's going to be tough. Alright, compliment. When's Billion start?

May 3rd. Great. It's a great day. It's my wedding anniversary. Thank you. Alright, Bill. Talk soon. Alright, we're bringing Wesley Morrison in one second. Chances are you've heard of Salesforce, but if you're like a lot of people, you don't know exactly what Salesforce does. Well, the simple answer is this. Salesforce brings companies and customers together.

How does it work? Well, with Salesforce, different employees across your different departments like Steve and Sales, Merriam Marketing, Katie and Customer Service, even I and an IT, they all get a single shared 360 degree view of each of your customers. That means two things. First, whenever your customers talk with Steven Sales or everybody else, they'll feel like they're having a relationship with one united company, not a series of disconnected departments, which is important. Second, even more important, it means Steven Sales and everybody else have everything they

need to make your customers happy and they're all interconnected. Those customers won't be just a little happy. They'll be happy like, wow, I love this company. They really get me. I'm never going anywhere happy. That kind of happy. And when your customers are that happy, everyone's happy. That's how Salesforce brings companies and customers together.

Make sense? To learn more, visit salesforce.com slash learn more. Let's talk some movies. All right, Wesley Morris is here. Let's talk some movies. All right. Wesley Morris is here. Sometimes we fly him out and we just put you on a whole bunch of podcasts and we just wind you up and you go. Yeah.

Ping pong, pinball, pinball, Wesley. Yeah. Oscars this weekend. Yes. I can never get through an Oscars week without talking to you for at least 10 minutes on what's going on. I'm not sure what's happened to the Oscars

because we have all these prohibitive favorites. There's no drama at all. Everyone thinks 1917's gonna win. Isn't that wild? Everyone thinks

Phoenix is gonna win for the Joker. Yeah. That Renee Zellweger is gonna win for Judy, which I think like five people have seen. No, no, no.

It made money. Brad Pitt for Once Upon a Time. And then Laura Dern for Marriage Story. Yes. And those are kind of done. Yes. They're like huge, huge favorites. It doesn't even make sense to bet on them.

They're such huge favorites. It would be like betting on, I don't know, the Oklahoma City Thunder to beat some Division III team. Those are like the kind of odds you have. I guess the only one that's kind of, oh, even best director, Sam Mendes is a 25-20 favorite. That's wild. What is happening? Is it just the internet has made this that the consensus of thought, now nobody goes

against the grain and they just kind of follow the pack? What's happening here? I don't know. I think I really feel like increasingly there are just enough people. I don't know how voters individually are feeling about not pressure to pick a certain person, but the like doing the work to really choose the thing you love the most, because every year you read those blind items that Variety or Hollywood Reporter or Daily Beast do. Yeah. And you read these Oscar voters say things and they all have they all seem to have individual taste.

Right. To hear these voters justify why they're voting for who they're voting for. You would think anything could win. But that never happens. It rarely happens, right? So I also believe that in this particular year, I think there's a lot of politics going on, like movie industry politics, right?

Yeah, explain. So I don't think that people, I think there's a number of things happening. I think people don't like parasite that much. I think they see it and they think, Oh, that was, that was okay. I don't know how they could think that. It actually got, it's like Robert Covington right now at the NBA trade deadline. It's gotten hyped up too much. And now people are going, wait a second. He's not that good. I think parasite, everybody's like, it's great. It's awesome. You got to see it. And you, you end up going and you're like yeah it's good but you're not like oh my god

you're right i'm blown away yeah i can't speak but some people are leaving mad like not i know if they're leaving they're probably just watching it at home but like they're they're watching this movie and they're just kind of like well okay i'm i'm rich people poor people and i think that i mean i really think that they think it's that simple. Yeah. And I also think. It's good. I really liked it.

I didn't think it was like the best picture of the year. I, well, I do. But. You do, really? I think of those. What's the case? Give me the case in a minute. I think it's just, okay.

The very simple thing is it takes a story. It takes an idea that I can't believe that in a hundred and, believe that in 120 years of movies, nobody's ever done before. Nobody's ever thought to turn the class divide into a game in this particular way. Yeah. And by the time they get to the second, by the time the father gets the job, so the third introduction of the glomming on to this family, I was just laughing. I was just laughing with happiness at the brilliance of this idea. He's such a great—of these nine movies, almost all of them are perfectly made, I would say.

That's the one that surprised me the most in terms of how tight and smart and and surprising it was the one thing i don't like about it is the ending but in talking to people about who also sort of are the ending is sort of anticlimactic yeah but it also needs to be there none nobody could come up with a better ending so this is the ending this movie needs to have. This elegiac, sort of tragic fantasy ending. I liked Once Upon a Time the most. I mean as you know, I also love that movie. We did a podcast about that on this podcast

back in August. Wait, wait. Let's go back though. We did a Rewatchables that's coming this week about it. Already? Yeah. Well, we do one Oscar movie every year. Oh, of the nine. We did Get Out, we did A Star is Born, and now we do Once Uponcar movie every year oh of the nine we did get out we did a star is born and now we do once upon a time um that seems fair yeah um i think ford and ferrari for versus ferrari of those nine movies that and little women i think are the most

those are going to prove to be the most rewatchable of those i'm so glad you said that i feel like those have become the underrated, I'm not sure what happened in each case movies. I thought Little Women was excellent. Little Women! It was so good. The crazy thing about this year

is there are two stories. I just wrote a story about this for the paper. And the maddening thing about these nine movies, and I'll get back to the, back to what people are saying about who they, why 1917 is going to win for political reasons.

Movie industry political reasons. But I just wrote a piece about how this is the first year since they expanded the field to up to 10 movies that I have liked every single one of these movies more or less except for one. And I don't like Joker. I didn't either. Yeah, I don't like Joker. You and I were really aligned this year on what we liked and didn't like.

Yeah, I like that. I don't like Joker. I didn't have fun. I thought his performance was awesome, but I've seen a lot of movies where I thought the performance was awesome, but I didn't necessarily love the movie. Right.

I don't even... I don't even, Joaquin Phoenix is one of my four favorite male actors. And this does not, I feel like this is the first time he is looking for a character. As a, like, we are watching him do work that I think gets done before he starts shooting in this movie.

And part of it is he is playing a person who's changing, but he's always playing people who are undergoing some sort of psychological change. Wasn't he so much more interesting in The Master? Oh, well, you can't. Everything he was doing? If you're going to start there, then, I mean, I'm just saying, like, why did he?

Just give Antonio Banderas the Oscar. I mean. Right. Good point. That's where you're going to start. But I'm saying, like, I don't know why it took this movie for people to be like, here's his Oscar movie when he was so good in the master.

But I mean, the thing that, and that was a more interesting performance. The interesting thing that we should talk about is that like, he is one of those people where like, he's just a person who is owed, right? Like it's,

he's been, he's, it's a set of a woman. He's quote suffered so long. Just give him, just give it to him. Not that he's been he's that's the set of a woman he's quote suffered so long just give him just give it to him not that he's begging for it um because when he took this part i was like oh well you know he clearly he clearly understands where the business is going and i would never accuse him ever of like being interested in getting any prizes for the work he's doing but i also feel like there is a sense that he's been nominated three other times. I think

maybe four. Do you remember who we lost to the Master? Who won that year? I can find out as you're talking. Keep your point going and I'll have the answer. Anyway, I feel like if I sat here and thought about it, I'd come up with it, but I'm not going to remember. That was 2013.

2013. So we have... Is that Matthew McConaughey? No, it's not McConaughey. Oh, he lost to Daniel Day-Lewis as Lincoln. Oh, well, that's just bad luck for Joaquin Phoenix. I remember having an issue with that at the time. You should have. I mean,

just as a matter of history, you should. I have a beard on. Where's my Oscar? Oh, you blasph I have a beard on. Where's my Oscar? Oh, you blaspheme. He's fine. You blaspheme. He's fine in that movie. I thought Affleck should have been nominated that year.

I mean, it was a good year. You had a really good Bradley Cooper, really good Joaquin Phoenix, really good Daniel Day-Lewis. Denzel is in flight. You had one of the best Denzels. That might be the best. That's a top four Denzel.

Who's the fifth person? Hugh Jackman and Les Miserables. Look, I I'm just. He That's a guy who wants it, right? It's a good category That's a guy who wants it. That is maybe the most competitive best actor collection in a long time. There's some

star power in that. Those are four and a half great all-time performances. I mean, all right. I won't- I can't argue for Jackman. Denzel. Denzel in flight?

Where you're like, oh, man. I actually think he might be taking this character home with him. Yeah. Like, he might- We know Denzel throws himself in his roles. I hope he didn't do it this time around. Like, he definitely- That was a different side of- I like when Denzel takes me somewhere that I haven't gone with Denzel throws himself in his roles. I hope he didn't do it this time around. Like he definitely, that was a different side of,

I like when Denzel takes me somewhere that I haven't gone with Denzel yet. And in that movie, we'd never seen that before. He goes over the, it's like, oh man. He never plays people with that many flaws who also aren't,

like he's not entirely redeemed by the time that movie's over. And I like, I like that version of him. I also think that's the, that Bradley Cooper performance completely changed our perception of Bradley Cooper. Wait, can we go back to Phoenix?

Yes, yes. So you're talking about how he's owed. This is a theme over and over again with the Oscars. I don't like it, but this is how it works. No, but that's how it usually happens. The part I don't get is Renee Zellweger already won. Listen, do you want to go there now? Do we owe her?

Do you want to go there now? I we owe her? Do you want to go there now? I just thought Scarlett was better. I agree. Well, you know what's funny? Part or part. Judy and Marriage Story are the same movie. And Judy is satisfying the part of Marriage Story that people have a problem with with regard to Scarlett Johansson's character

and the movie sort of being more on Adam Driver's side. Yeah. Judy is totally about what happens to an actress trying to figure out her life in a divorce. That's Judy. Judy also has a really

good like last scene that you leave the movie with for the actress. Yes. Where you're like oh man that was amazing but it's like the last thing you think about when you leave the movie. Whereas Marriage Story, Scarlett's best scene happens like, what, 30 minutes in the movie? Yeah. That long one shot of her and Laura Dern.

Yeah. I feel like the thing about Renee Zellweger in this movie, she's not owed. I actually do think that, first of all, Joaquin Phoenix is also benefiting from this bias, which is it's a movie about a performer. We're not thinking of, I mean, we're talking about this in terms of race in a lot of ways because it's a movie that thinks

it's saying something about the state of the country. Yeah. But I also think that at the end of the day, Joaquin Phoenix is playing a performer in the same way that Renee Zellweger is. There's just like any insight

that an actor can give other acting professionals about the craft of performance in some way. Yeah. I think that is a thing that Joaquin Phoenix is doing in this film. Can Renée Zellweger win an Oscar the same year she made that terrible Netflix show? Because I say no. Wait, what terrible Netflix show? Yeah, she's on a Netflix show.

Speak some more. No, it came out like six months ago. She's some overlord who's maneuvering stuff. I watched one episode. I was like, wow, tough times for Renee Zellweger. Now she's going to win the Oscar. Cottage of Cards? What is it called?

It's bad. Go watch it. Okay. So let's do the five-year Oscars game. Okay. Five years from now, who are we going to say should have won the Oscar? Best picture, go. Probably Once Upon a Time in Hollywood or Parasite. One of those two. I think it's going to Probably Once Upon a Time in Hollywood or Parasite.

One of those two. I think it's going to be Once Upon a Time. Best actor, who are we going to say should win? Leo. I was going to say Leo too. It'll be DiCaprio. That'll be the five years from now performance where they're like, oh man, maybe we should have appreciated that was Leo's last great performance.

Of the five people, I think it's probably going to be Leonardo DiCaprio that we'll say that about. Best actress? Here's the tough part about these five people. I think that Scarlett Johansson will have done better work by then. And she is really good in this movie. And if I'm voting for one person, I probably would vote for her. But I've been thinking a lot about Judy in the last couple weeks. Judy was good.

I was surprised that I liked it. She really is doing it. Yeah. She goes. There's a moment where she's singing the first song she sings in london she she throws the mic cord over her shoulder like it's a shawl and that is such a like that's such a move i don't know if judy garland actually did it but then she has to remove the cord and it's just so there's so much drama, tragedy,

and comedy happening at every single moment of that performance. I, it's kind of a no-brainer. Okay. I think that's the one that lasts. But Charlize Theron,

by the way, just to say this, I don't know how she did that. I don't know how she gave that performance. She's excellent. I don't know how she did it. I, you watch it. I mean, the makeup is't know how she did it. You watch it.

I mean, the makeup is a part of it, but it's also the voice, obviously. But there's something about Charlize Theron being like maybe one of the very few. Laura Dern also has this characteristic in her, which is to play the most unlikable people, not in a way that makes you like them, but makes you admire the person playing them

for going for all the unpleasantness and trusting that there's enough material there to not make the person seem evil, but just to make them seem complex in the way that people are complex. I thought she had a good year because I thought she was really good in Longshot. Oh, she's really good in Longshot.

I like when Charlize is just Charlize. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that too. Young adults like that too. She's like a little crazier, Charlize, but I like when she goes back to the basics. Brad Pitt, I think, will be the one that lasts. But you know how I feel about that performance. We talked about it extensively. Best supporting actress.

Yes. I gotta say, I'm not totally happy with any of the five candidates. Laura Dern, good, not great. I don't know why she's like a runaway in this category because I felt like she's just playing Laura Dern. Laura Dern. She's basically this character in Big Little Lies, right? Well, yeah, except there's no—

It's a variation of the same— Except that she does nothing— I'm a professional. I'm aggressive. I know. But the Big Little Lies, that's a great character. I think that's a better. I'm aggressive. I know. But the Big Little Lies, that's a great character. I think that's a better character than this character.

Well, but see, the thing about this character is, and this is what I'll say about Marriage Story. I think that everything involving everybody who's not Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson is really wonderful.

I think all the law stuff in this movie is great. I think Ray Liotta, the guy who plays Ray Liotta's virtually silent assistant who is a person whose face I recognize but whose name

I can't conjure right now. Alan Alda, Julie Haggerty, Merritt Weaver. I didn't love Julie Haggerty. I love Julie Haggerty in this. I wanted like Meryl Streep in that spot.

Oh God, that would have been too much. And like there's a kind of, there's a thing about Julie Haggerty that if you're an Albert Brooks fan. I know,

but I couldn't separate the Albert Brooks part of it. Or maybe that was the intention. Well, that's fair. But I would just say that like the thing about that movie is I feel like Noah Baumbach basically wrote what's great about that performance. Right. That is just screenwriting. And I'm not going to say any actor can deliver it. I also think Laura Dern is one of those ode people.

Right. Okay. Laura Dern has been around a long time. She should have had an Oscar for any of her David Lynch works I feel the least strongly about that category I don't feel like there's I won't be telling my grandkids

about anybody Florence Pugh Florence Pugh is really good so is Scarlett Johansson that's a it's a good category no but that's best oh Scarlett

I'd further support her Scarlett Johansson is really good in Jojo Rabbit Florence Pugh is really good in Little Women um who are the other can you do your can you do your thing about

why 1917 winning is a political thing? Oh, right. Hollywood politics. So I feel like people, there's a real fight among, I don't know if it's everybody. I would guess it's older people and people who've been in the industry

for a long time about what a movie is. Yeah. And it isn't just the one the quote one shot unquote gimmick it's also mendez actually saying whenever he wins or the couple times he's won that like i got to make a real movie and you guys should go to a movie theater and see it there is this like laying down smart marketing for yes i mean there's a real there's like i'm gonna because everything has to be divided now

in this binary way. It's either you watched it via Netflix and Netflix is ruining movies, or you go see this wonderful movie that no streaming company made and is a sort of genre classic. So LaMarcus Aldridge should do this, is what you're saying.

He should say, look, nobody comes to basketball games anymore. Everybody's shooting threes. Come to the arena and watch me take long twos. And he'll win the MVP. I mean, what if he did say that though, right? I also feel bad if 1917, if Mendez wins a second Oscar in 1917 wins for best picture,

you know who I'm going to feel bad for? Among all the people to feel bad for. It could feel bad for Greta Gerwig or Ban Joon-ho. I'm going to pour one out for Christopher Nolan. Because he did this already. I mean, Dunkirk, I mean, I have complicated feelings about Dunkirk, which is ultimately a great movie. My complicated feelings about Dunkirk are about, like, I don't know if you feel this way. I just feel like that is the first honest Christopher Nolan movie.

It's the one where he just says, you know what? I really don't have any ideas about, like, life and society. I just want to make a good, gripping movie. All my movies are about filmmaking. I only have movie ideas and like i'm really good at figuring out what to do with time but not if you have to make the time changes mean something larger than them operating within the world of a cinematic experience i feel like dunkirk the genius of dunkirk is that it's him just being like you know what the dark knight i

didn't know how to make that movie mean more than it could have meant if I just like read the torture memos. I don't know. But Dunkirk is a thing that happened. I can take a thing that happened and just like, I can jazz it

until it's just the most exciting movie experience you have. And he didn't get anything for that. I mean, you know, some of his technicians did, but I don't know it's just gonna be a really interesting year Sam Mendes

two Oscars how many does Tarantino have? one just like screenwriting right? I think he's got one for Pulp Fiction and one maybe one

did he win for Django? I think he won for Django for just screenwriting oh and Glorious Bastards he won for one of those but he never won Best Movie he's never won Best Picture. But he never won Best Movie. He's never won Best Picture

and he's never won Best Director. Why don't people feel like they owe him? Because he talks a lot and he probably in the minds of a lot of people seems like he's won

because he, I mean, he has won and he's somebody who I think whatever the ninth, whatever the last movie is, it'll be the one that he gets all these things for. I'm gonna give you my

as promised from the last podcast my eight worst movies of the year. Oh, bring it. Number eight Richard Jewell. Oh.

As we discussed an incredible fatal flaw where they just make up this entire plot of Jon Hamm getting seduced by the Atlanta Journal Constitution character played by Olivia Wilde. She's really good in that part, though.

She's good in that movie. She's really good. Unfortunately, this never happened. And this is the equivalent of the O.J. movie where it's like, oh, Marcia Clark got seduced by some guy and gave her the glove idea. And it's like, that didn't happen. You're making a factual movie, and you've just made up the key part of it's like, that didn't happen. You're making a factual movie and you've just made up the key part of it.

She's really good in the part though. She's good. Kathy Bates is good. Sam Rockwell's really good. All the supporting performances, even the lead guy, I think all the acting in the movie is really good. It's a really good movie. But it's cheap. And it gets completely submarine by the dumbest movie

decision of the year, so I'm putting it in the top eight. Number seven, The Haunting of Sharon Tate. Ooh. So the same director just made another movie, which I also watch, called The Haunting of Nicole Brown Simpson. Oh, no. He takes these real-life things and makes horror movies out of them? Ooh.

I didn't see The Haunting of Sharon Tate. This movie is one of the worst movies I've ever seen. The only reason it's not number one on the list is because they knew it was bad. They just wanted to put Sharon Tate in the thing. Are they dramatic reenactments? Yeah, dramatic. It's like basically a much better Lifetime movie with like a horror bent taking a real life thing.

Terrible idea. That guy can go to hell. Oh my. Number six, Rocket Man. Oh. If my son, who likes all music movies,

and every time he goes to a music movie, comes home and plays the songs for three days. Yeah. And he was like, what the hell is going on? He was so ready to like this movie and was so disappointed. And it was such a misfire.

And it speaks to what's happened with movies and with documentaries a little bit too which I call these documentaries that are infomercials documershels oh sure like the Taylor Swift one

on Netflix which I actually enjoyed watching but it's good it's a documershal yes it's not a documentary no we're not documenting anything

we're documersheling you are documersheling the day that she thought she was going to get a bunch of Grammy nominations and got none. That was the only honest moment in the movie. Right.

For 10 seconds, she's like, and she's melting down and she's like, I just got to make a better album. And I'm like, oh, no wonder you're so successful. You just digested failure in 10 seconds. This Rocketman is a movie-mershal. It's here's Elton John. He's going to be a producer. Here's this sanitized version of his life. Here's somebody doing an impression of him.

Those aren't movies. Number five. This isn't the fifth worst movie of the year. Oh, no. But I was so disappointed in it that I'm putting it number five and I'm disappointed in it for a specific reason. Just mercy. Oh,

okay. I want to hear your reason. I'm so upset by Michael B. Jordan's performance in this. I wanted him to be the awesome charismatic lawyer. This was like his moment movie. And I don't know What happened He just whiffs

Bill And I love Michael B. Jordan Be nice I like Michael B. Jordan I think it's a whiff I think it's Bill

It's a loss for him As a performance This is like The Oscar performance And he doesn't pull it off And I don't get it Because I thought He would do better

Jamie Foxx and Rob Morgan Are amazing in this movie They're awesome And Michael B. Jordan's like Not good Jamie I mean Jamie Foxx and Rob Morgan are amazing in this movie. They're awesome. And Michael B. Jordan's like not good. Jamie? I mean, Jamie Foxx. Michael B. Jordan needs a director who is going

to, if he's not going to work with Coogler, who's going to let him be a movie star, he needs an actor, he needs a director who's really going to push him until he thinks he might break. How can you watch Fruitvale State, you watch him in Fruitvale Station and Creed break how can you watch fruitvale state you watch him in fruitvale station and creed and then you watch him in this movie and it's like he's been replaced by a michael b jordan pod yeah i don't get it i think it's also playing brian stevenson

too brian stevenson i i've met him a couple times he is the kindest mildest mannered person like it would seem so false for him to have like a you can't handle the truth you know he can't brian stevenson doesn't need to go into court with that he's done his homework so maybe that's the reason right maybe he scaled it back yeah for whatever reason but it's just it wasn't a compelling performance and i wanted it to be awesome it's not jamie foxx and rob morgan are so good in that movie that you kind of just you only want to spend time on death row with that. So this wasn't the fifth worst movie of the year.

Which is a crazy thing to say. It was the fifth most disappointing. I guess this is my list. This is the fifth most disappointed I've been in a movie this year was this, because I was just like, I thought he was going to

like absolutely crush this. I read about it. I was like, oh, this is it, man. This is the Oscar. He's kind of in a bad situation. You just can't, you can't do that

with Bryan Stevenson. He just doesn't, he's not that person. I want him to learn from this. I still believe, I still think he can win an Oscar, but he's got to go, go back and look at this and go,

what, what happened here? What did I do wrong? What decisions did I make that were incorrect? The person who robbed the bank in, or the art museum or wherever in, in Black Panther, that guy,

the guy who shoots, uh, Andy Serkis. Yeah. Like that guy is in Black Panther, that guy, the guy who shoots Andy Serkis. Yeah. Like that guy is a movie that, did he, does he kill Andy Serkis? I can't remember now. Anyway, that guy before he,

before he gets to Wakanda is the most interesting person in Black Panther. I want, I want him to bottle a little bit of that. I look at actors like athletes. I think they can have a bad season, a bad playoff series. It doesn't mean they're bad. Right.

This was his version of just a bad playoff series. I want him to learn from it. Bounce back. My number four worst movie, The Intruder. Dennis Quaid. Oh, he sells his house.

Oh, this movie is so bad. It's so bad. It's the worst movie. I urge everyone to watch it. It is such a missed... If you like bad action movies... It's such a missed opportunity.

It doesn't even know what it is. No. It's like, all they have is the title. They're like, hey, we have this movie. It's called The Intruder. What's the plot? So this guy sells this house, but doesn't want to give it up. All right, let's just make it and on the fly we'll create

some of the seeds. It's such a weird movie because you got to be more specific, Bill. I don't want to spoil it though because I actually want people to watch it because it's that bad. All right. But the movie is messed up and it doesn't go far. It's my

favorite genre. It's the blank from hell. I know. It's a blank from hell that doesn't even go to heck. I forgot to text you. I knew you would have seen this. Ugh. Yeah, it doesn't go to hell. It goes to heck.

Right. And it's like, is this guy evil? Am I supposed to feel bad for him? It's a... They should just consult us. It's a Jack Lemmon movie from like 1974

that somebody was like, you know, we should just make it a thriller. Just make it scary. I just feel like the race stuff. The movie is so afraid of his being white and the homeowners being black that it doesn't really even successfully engage with that. No, it more has the people be black because they thought it was a way to get more of an audience for the movie. Yes.

That interested in exploring it. We apparently love. The racist part would be like the awesome part of it. If they did it correctly where he's like, I can't believe I sold my house. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Speaking of movies that tried to target a specific audience and failed miserably.

My third worst movie of the year. A truly atrocious movie. I can't believe it happened. Ma. This is the same problem as The Intruder in a weird way, right? It is a horror movie

that is afraid to fully be about the racism that is engendering the psychopathology of Octavia Spencer in this movie. So she has two misfires. She has this movie and she's not that good

and loose. Yeah. That's fair. She's just kind of miscast and she's an actress I really like and I appreciate and respect

that she's trying to branch out but she went 0 for 2. Yes. And this Ma is bad. Ma is bad. My kids who will watch any horror movie, I just watched Countdown with my son

a couple days ago. He'll watch literally anything, and he was like, this sucks. If my son doesn't like your horror movie, you failed. My number two worst movie of the year, Late Night.

Ooh. Ooh. Spicy choice. I don't like it either, but... This movie blew. Late Night ooh ooh spicy choice I don't like it either but this movie blew I didn't like it Emma Thompson

as an 1130 network late night comedy host I know I know was literally the dumbest casting decision of the year

what she's competing against like Jimmy Fallon in America this is somebody who's gonna be a success she's gonna be telling jokes like Jimmy Fallon. This is in America. This is somebody who's going to be a success. She's going to be telling jokes at the top of the monologue. Like what the fuck are you doing?

This is, yeah. I mean, this is where like trying to go against the grain goes wrong because this is like, they might've had as well of Emma Thompson as the point guard of the Lakers. Honestly,

can't believe she's the point guard of the Lakers. Wow. She's really battling sexism. I would watch that though. Well, the interesting thing about the movie though, and I hate to say this, but like all the good writing

is with the asshole men. Mindy Kaling wrote this movie. Right. And all the men have really good comedy writing. And there's nothing, I have nothing, I mean, I can't redeem you. The romantic relationship's bad. I just, nothing, I have nothing, I mean,

I can't redeem you. The romantic relationship's bad. I just, so if I'm judging this by not what's the worst movie as much as how disappointed I was in the execution of the movie.

It's also a world you kind of know, I feel like. Yeah, it's just, it's just, I was so disappointed. Yeah.

My number one worst movie, Serenity. Bill, McConaughey. This is whyity. Bill. McConaughey. This is why we're friends. McConaughey and Anne Hathaway. I knew it was bad. In a hotel room.

I'm in New York. I'm with my wife. Can't find anything. Let's get a hotel pay-per-view. Oh, there's McConaughey and Anne Hathaway. Oh, my God. I heard this was bad. Well, it can't be that bad.

They're both in it. Ah, let's give it a shot. You're burying so many leads right now. It's disappointing. It's awful. It's inexplicable. The plot is the dumbest plot in the last maybe five years. You couldn't even explain the plot. It's incoherent.

I don't understand why they made it. Did you take a picture of your face when they got to the end in the big reveal? Did you take a picture of your face? Which big reveal? The big reveal a picture of your face? Which big reveal? The big reveal should have been me realizing I lost $19.99 on my hotel room pay-per-view. What? Whatever it was. Oh, my God.

No. Matthew McConaughey needs to give you some Cadillac money. Or Lincoln or whatever. Here's my idea. I think you have to lose your Oscars if you make a movie that bad. I think there's a quality line. quality line and if that line gets crossed I don't even I can't even

You have to give the Oscar back. I want there to be more accountability. Your Oscar should go on probation. You should have You have to put it in layaway for four years.

You have to like it has to go to the pawn shop or something. So if you're going to make Serenity you have to be really sure like you're like ah this script's bad

but I'll take the paycheck. It's like no can't do it so that's those are my nominees Wesley we can hear you more on the big picture

and we can hear you on two rewatchables that we have coming up thank you thanks for coming in thanks for having me okay Claire Danes coming up in one second

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Go to simply safe.com slash BS. That is SimpliSafe with two I's. And now, Claire Danes. Okay, Claire Danes is here. Hi. I feel like you've been in my life for a long time. Really? Dating back.

I'm a 90s guy. Oh, yeah. Well, then. Then your show started, but it was pre-internet. Yes. My so-called life. That's right. It would have had a totally different outcome, I think, in just about any other era.

Probably, yeah. Yeah. We didn't even make it through a full season. We were canceled at 19 episodes. But then it got bought by all these other outlets and had this kind of bizarrely long afterlife especially on mtv i think it was just like played on a loop on tv for years after that so it um yeah it was it made it made an impact but kind of after the fact in a way like so yeah it seems like there's one show every year like that because the next decade was friday night lights Right. It was also Jason Kadams, who was a writer on My So-Called Life.

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Winnie really had a hard time delegating to any other writer or voice, but Jason was worthy. Yeah. Because that one hits right before this whole streaming thing happens. And the ratings weren't quite high enough for NBC. Right, right. And it's this constant quite high enough for NBC. Right, right. And it's this constant battle whether to keep it. But if it comes along five years later, it's golden.

Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true. I mean, there's just so much television now. But it gets to survive because it seems like everything's so atomized now. So you don't get canceled, but your viewership's probably a lot smaller. Yeah, seriously. You know? If you think about my so-called life, probably it would have been like a top five show now.

Yeah, I think that's right. That's right. Yeah. It's really, I think the effects of that are actually pretty profound. I don't know if they're entirely good. I mean, there is value in it, I think, for sure. But then there's that echo chamber problem. I think both shows probably have the same thing in common

where it resonated really deeply with a specific demo. Yeah, and I also think it was very fresh. It was pretty novel. And I love that David Bowie quote, it doesn't matter who does it first. It matters who does it second. You know, like I, I do think it was, it, it, it, it was a little early with its, um, style and it's, you know know yeah it's met content you know it was unusual to have a a girl insecure kind of heady retiring girl at the center of the story and and to just spend all that time in her internal my so-called life. That was an amazing TV year. It feels like a lot of stuff changed. Amazing TV year? Really?

What else? That was when you had Friends in the ER. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was when you had NYPD really starting to push you and blow up over what a crime drama was. That's true. And Ed Zwick and Marshall Herskovitz were the executive producers,

and they had done 30 something. So it was, you know, related to that stylistically, I think. Which is now coming back, which is how we know we're old. Yeah. Is it? They're bringing it back with the, I think the original people, but it's going to be their children. Uh-huh.

Okay. Cool. Yeah. All right. But then all the originals get to still be on it. That's so nice. Yeah. Yeah. All right. But then all the originals get to still be on it. That's so nice. Yeah. Yeah.

Everything circles back. It is funny how some shows live on and some other shows just go away. Like I think my so-called life lived on and was able to keep resonating with these new generations of kids. Yeah. My soul cycle instructor of all people approached me after class the other day and said that her, maybe it wasn't the other day because it was around the end of summer, but her daughter was going off to college and she was taking a few things. And one of them was my so-called life, like DVDs. I was like, people still watch DVDs? Nevermind my so-called life. But it was just, it's very surprising that it is still relevant. I mean, it's amazing. And people really do approach me about that as much as anything, which is wonderful.

It is, you know, it's kind of a classic and apparently a little timeless, which is fantastic. I'm still really close with Winnie Holtzman, who wrote it, who also wrote Wicked. So she's rad. I haven't forced my daughter to watch it yet, or not forced. How old is she? So she's 14, and she's the perfect age to watch it. I was waiting until—

She could get into that. I was 13 when I did the pilot. I was 14 when I filmed it. So she's age-appropriate. Oh, totally. Although she does push the envelope with some of the stuff she watches. Like what?

What is she into? Everybody seems to be into Friends now, again. Friends made a huge comeback. But sorry, I interrupted. No, that's one of them. Yeah. Because I think Friends has not only a timelessness, but it's just kind of a safe show.

Yeah. Yeah. All. Yeah. All the themes. It's a bomb. You're an 11-year-old could watch it and you don't really have to worry about anything. All this stuff's in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then some of the other stuff, like Netflix had a show called The Society, which I didn't

realize she was watching. Oh. And that has some themes in it. Right, right, right. I was like, all right, I guess we're pushing the envelope with that one. Yeah. But our philosophy is they're going to find this stuff anyway. And if we're throwing our bodies in front of it, that's just going to make them want to watch it more.

I think that's probably true. Yeah. But I think this is the right time. There's really not that many shows with strong high school female character, you know, that are the centerpiece. No, no. It remains unusual right seriously yeah yeah so when you got that you were living in new york right and then you moved out to do that but you hadn't really done any work at all right a little bit i mean a very little bit i i i had i

got an agent when i was 12 and i worked you pretty consistently, but like I did a TV movie here, a pilot that didn't get picked up there. You know, I had some experience, but it was modest to say the least. Um, but I had like much more confidence that I had any right to have. Um, and there were an amazing group of people, uh, you know. I already named the key players, but they were just lovely and responsible. And it was kind of an ideal way to begin. It was a very healthy little culture that I landed in. But yeah, my parents and I just flew out to LA. Was that being driven by you or them that you wanted to be an actor? Me. It was really weird. Yeah. I was way in and I just had always

known that I wanted to be an actor inexplicably, like from the age of five. It was just very evident that that was my calling. And then I was told around maybe nine, eight or nine, that most actors didn't actually make that much money, which seemed concerning. And so I, um, I then revised my plan and I was going to be a therapist and do acting workshops on the side. And, um, but, uh, but a year later I made a formal announcement to my family at the dinner table, and I said, you know what? Money or no money, there is no plan B. I am an actor.

And they were like, okay, that's great. And we're doing this. We're doing this. Again, it felt like they were humoring me. So you knew. You knew deep in your soul. I really, really did. And then I started taking classes at Lee Strasberg when I was 10.

Oh, wow. You know, yeah. Hyman Roth. Yeah. And then I went to performing arts. That's one of your two biggest acting schools. Yeah. It helps living in New York City.

These resources are readily available. And then I went to a performing arts junior high school. And there I met kids who were doing it professionally. And so I learned what a headshot was and how you go about getting one and finding an agent. And I had done a couple of student films because my best friend, I danced and my best friend danced. And I'd done a few productions like in way, way off Broadway theaters, these avant-garde productions when I was a very tiny person. And my friend had done a student film and that same director was doing another student film. So her mother recommended me.

And so I had this little bit of like footage that I could show agents and stuff. And yeah, so I, you know, would rollerblade to my auditions. I mean, dorky as all get up and very sweaty. Yeah. Take off my like wrist guards. And, you know, but the stakes were low. Like, you know, I think that helped. I had tests every so often. My dad would fly out with me and we were all just so bewildered. And when my so-called life happened, when we moved out, it was literally the day after those 94 Northridge earthquakes,

you know, that massive earthquake. I mean, a lot of stuff was going on because OJ was that year too, right? That's right. And Rodney King and not, you know, like it was a lot. So, but no, but the earth was literally undulating, you know, when we got, when we, when we went, yeah, we, we had these aftershocks. It was just, it was a very striking metaphor. You know, we were, we were feeling like pretty, like we were on shaky ground literally figuratively. But, you know, it all worked out. My parents are still here. I dragged them out here. And my mom, they had been artists. And then my dad was a contractor for 20 years.

My mom ran a nurse, like a toddler school in our loft in Crosby Street for the majority of my childhood. But then they, my mom went back to grad school here at a place called Otis in her 50s. And they live in Santa Monica. My dad built studios for them in the backyard, and 25 years later, they're making their art and showing it to kids. It all worked out, but I moved back as soon as I could. So I'm producing this documentary for HBO that's finished now, that Alex Winter did, and it's called Showbiz Kids.

Oh, really? Okay. It's about when kids become famous, but not like the stereotypical way of the way you would think where it's not like, oh, the Corys and all that. It's more about this little arc that kids have. And one of the big themes is about failure with child actors and, you know, either losing a role or you have a show that gets canceled and you're a 14 year old. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, oh, shit, I can't believe. Yeah. My show's gone. Did you feel that? Yeah. That would inspire you to make that movie. Alex is a former child actor and it was a topic that he was really obsessed with. And for all the reasons that people wouldn't think it's a good idea.

Yeah. You know, they would just think it's going to be like the sexy, sensational version. But it's actually like you've thousands of kids every year trying to break into the business. God, I know so much what that means. Like my heart is kind of breaking just thinking about it. But yeah, that sounds really fascinating. So when my so-called life got canceled. Yeah.

How did you deal with that? Well, we had shot the pilot and it did not get picked up. And I went to high school. And then kind of halfway through my first semester, it suddenly did get picked up. So my heart had been, I had been devastated already. Yeah. And it was a good primer. Yeah.

But yeah, it was confusing. Yeah, the viewership was low. We'd heard rumbling. Yeah, it was not a total shock, but it was a disappointment for sure. What do you wish you could have told yourself, the person you are now, tell the 14-year-old, be ready for this, be ready for that?

Is there any advice you would have given yourself? Oh, gosh. I don't know. I feel really, really lucky that I had the parents that I did, honestly, because they were with me the entire time in a way that wasn't, you know, cloying. It was uncomfortable because it was at the moment

when you're supposed to be starting to drift away from each other a little bit and have just a bit more space, you know, between you and the reverse was happening where I was like bunking with my mom, which definitely created tension. But, you know, they were there to make sure I had the right tutor and, you know, got what I needed and was safe. And, you know, so. That seems to be the recurring theme of when this actually works well right right because I knew a lot of kids who emancipated

themselves when they were like 14 or something crazy and they're living on their own in some awkward apartment you know like a few I mean they've done okay I mean, they've done okay. I mean, they landed amazingly, but I think it was a much harder course.

So, again, I think that was, that accounted for a lot of my, I don't know. They were really responsible for my sanity, you know. And it was always clear that I was going to go to college. Yeah, because you made a bunch of movies and then you basically cold turkey went to Yale for a few years. I did. I deferred for a year and made a movie and breathed for a second. But it was something I knew that needed to happen,

really for social reasons as much as academic reasons. I was starting to become a little strange. I really was. Well, I mean, I was always a little precocious. I think growing up in New York too, and I had liberal know liberal parents who were exposed me to a lot really early and you know so I yeah but that just became really compounded when I was surrounded by adults and you know bearing a huge amount of responsibility and just didn't really go to school with kids and, you know, bypassed all of that, which I was very happy to do because junior high was a friggin nightmare.

And I was actually, I mean, I think people overuse this word, but I think I was pretty traumatized by it. So that was also like such a blessing that my so-called life appeared because I got to kind of release a lot of that and comment on it. And I had these perfect words that Winnie had given me, and I was in the kind of these styrofoam high school walls, actual ones. And so it was many steps removed and I got to simulate it, but I didn't have to do it. Uh, which I was really relieved. Could you assess what was going on in the outside world at that age? Cause like Jared Leto became America's heartthrob for like six months and that's happening

but you're in these little walls yeah yeah yeah but I just didn't stop working so like as soon as my so called life wrapped

I then did Little Women and I did I don't know it was just one movie after another and then I did Romeo and Juliet

you did the Little Women that's now not the latest Little Women that's right no I know you did like Yesterday's News

Little Women we've been bumped that's right that's right gets supplanted No, I know. You'd be like, yesterday's news, Little Women. That's right. That's right. Get supplanted. I know. I think very well. Which one were you, Beth?

I was Beth, yes. So who was that in the new one? Because I really like the new one. Yeah, I haven't seen it yet. I think Beth was Florence Pugh, maybe. No, she was Amy, I think. I don't remember. I don't remember.

But I'm super eager to see it. I'm a massive Gerwig fan. Did you do a double take when they were making it? You were like, wait a second, I just did this. No, I'm old. I am fully reconciled to that. Yeah. Every 25 years that movie has to happen.

Yes. It's one of those, you know. She did a great job of it. I'm sure someone else will play Juliet also. I think they already have. You know, like, you've got to be gracious about these things. I'm sure someone else will play Juliet also. I think they already have. You've got to be gracious about these things. I can't claim ownership over the classics.

That felt like you were, that was, Romeo and Juliet was the first time you got thrown into the Hollywood big budget. Yeah, yeah. Commercials, trailers, the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leo was clearly headed toward something really major. Yes, yes. Which you could see for five years. Absolutely.

He's one of my favorite young actors, and it seems like it gets— He's amazing. That part got forgotten once Titanic became what it became. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he did a bunch of really good stuff there for five, six years. What's Eating Gilbert Grape and Basketball Diaries. This Boy's Life. This Boy's Life.

Yeah, no. Yeah, he's incredible. And he always has been. This Boy's Life. This Boy's Life. Yeah. No. Yeah. He's incredible. And he always has been. Like he was good on the growing page. Oh, yeah. Growing Pains. He was amazing.

He had some good scenes in Growing Pains. Yeah. What was he like? Well, he was Leo in his early 20s. Oh, so he was older than his early 20s. So he was older than you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Everybody was older than me. That's why it's really funny to now be so ancient. I don't know if that would go this way now. What? Where you're a 14-year-old doing scenes with a 20-year-old. They're always a liability. I don't know. I don't know about that.

You don't think so? I don't know if that's such an issue. When you're really little, you have to be, you have to get tutored, which is a lot of time. Yeah. And so, therefore, it's very expensive. So, we're, you know, it's unusual that young people are cast kind of for that reason. Broke down palace? Yeah. Did you have to go to Thailand the whole time?

That was my gap year. I was in the Philippines. We shot that in the Philippines. That seemed like a rough movie. I thought that Down Palace? Yeah. Did you have to go to Thailand the whole time? That was my gap year. I was in the Philippines. We shot that in the Philippines. That seemed like a rough movie. I thought that movie was really good. Thank you. Thank you.

But that seemed like one of those movies. It was hard. That was the first movie that I made without my mom and without my tutor and, you know, so, and it was in a,

yeah, it was, it was a rough one. It was dark. That movie made me never want to go to the Far East, which is totally irrational. You're welcome. Yeah, no, it was. This could happen to me. Yeah, that was.

I don't want to go to jail. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, that was a tough one. But thank you. Yeah. I liked the idea that it was a story about these about female friendship. Kyle, you know that movie? What?

Broke Down Palace? No. It's a good one. Really? I'm going to Google it. It's a good ending. I don't want to spoil the ending for the people out there. Yeah. What did you think of Yale? Would you do that one over again? I loved it. I loved it. I only went for two years. I didn't graduate, but I still have really good pizza. Yeah, New Haven pizza scene.

And Louie's really good food in New Haven. Yeah. And my dad actually grew up in New Haven because my grandfather was dean of architecture at Yale. So we had a lot of friends and family there. So that was nice. And it's an amazing school.flash great school um but no but it's but it's but it did suit me like it's um the the yeah well it's very artsy it's very artsy it is i would say that's the most artsy yeah yeah well brown maybe um brown brown likes to

promote itself as artsy okay i feel like it was actually artsy yeah yeah yeah brown maybe um brown brown likes to promote itself as artsy okay i feel like it was actually artsy yeah yeah yeah it is the brown people yeah um um yeah so that was no it was a good fit and i you know all those wonderful cliches you know i met my best friends and my mind was blown and i so you never? No. How many classes do you have left? Two years left. I'm halfway there. You should be like Shaq. You should just start banging out classes in the Homeland set.

Did he do that? In your next movie. Did he do that? That's good for him. He did. I think he was starting to do like here and there, grabbing a couple of NBA players. That's super impressive. Yeah.

I remember I presented an award with Shaquille O'Neal when I was like 15, maybe 16. It's MTV Movie Awards or something. Yeah. We were an unlikely pair. I would imagine. I remember I shook his hand and it disappeared. I'd never encountered someone that behemoth before. And he was so kind.

He was so sweet. And he was really excited because he was so sweet. And he was really excited because he said, he was talking about how his girlfriend was pregnant. I was like, oh, that woman. Who's your big eye?

How is that going to work? But yeah, so anyway, but he was lovely. Anyway, I remember that. That's my, okay,

that's a tangent, but that's my- So you go to Yale and then that's it. You're making movies and everything from that point on? Well, I really thought that I could make a movie a summer. And then, of course, it doesn't work that way. And I've kind of failed to realize how much work goes into getting work.

So I wasn't able to read a script or take a meeting. And, you know, it was... And then I really kind of got what I needed from it. Like that. Yeah, I sort of got the fundamentals of it. And I was supposed to do a movie that fell through and I had to train for it. And that was kind of jarring and a little distressing. And so like I guess I had taken some time off that I didn't really mean to take and the whole thing started to feel a little protracted and my good friends were starting to graduate and and I missed acting I hadn't worked for three years which was just you know

yeah that's like a lifetime insanely long time for me especially um it's like acting in sports are like that where you're a little three years it really feels like three years yeah and I think also I needed to I wanted to give myself a chance to commit to

acting as an adult rather just do it by default or because out of habit or because I'd made this decision you know when i was a kid and uh and then you know sure enough it turns out that's in fact what i wanted to continue doing but i i really did give myself a good whack at you know entertaining other possibilities which was incredibly thrilling at a great time. What's your favorite movie you've made?

It's a tough question. I think Romeo and Juliet, just because it was so surprising. And it was ambitious, and it achieved everything it wanted to, I think. And I liked the idea. And a really creative director.

And a really creative director, mind-blowingly so. And that was really exciting. You also had some pressure on that one because people were like, uh-oh, they're doing Romeo and Juliet. Yeah. And they had these two hot young actors. Yeah. This better be good.

That was canceled. Yeah. So, yeah. Romeo and Juliet yeah and they had these two hot young actors yeah this better be good that was cancelled so yeah no you were you were the up and coming it actress there for a little bit yeah but you know

I've made others I don't know I forgot about making movies I've been making TV shows I know TV show for so long it's eight years

yeah you started making it and I had, that was the first year we had Grantland, which was the website before The Ringer. Oh, oh.

And we just threw ourselves into Homeland because we loved it. Oh, okay. And we were covering it every week. Oh, right. All right.

It was such an original show and the characters were so vivid. And it's interesting, now you think like earlier in the decade compared to now and your character

in Homeland who's, you know, has some real issues. And in the early part of the decade, you just know, man, she's batshit crazy, make all these jokes. But now I think there's much more sensitivity about some of those issues and how they're portrayed both on a show, but then also how people talk about them. But that was not the case in the early 2000s. I guess that's true. Yeah. Because my whole thing was like, Brody, run. Run from that. You weren't wrong. She's nuts. I wasn't totally wrong. You weren't wrong.

But then it turned out Brody was even more nuts. Yeah. But that was a great season. And it was interesting to show after that season had to reconcile. All right, what do we do with this because this worked but brody was probably only meant to last one season but now you gotta actually keep going that's right season second and then ultimately third you know i actually think in retrospect it would have been better off if he blew up at the end of season one and he just moved on i don't know they wouldn't

have had franny true they wouldn't have franny but maybe you could have snuck that one in anyway i don't know it's been a weekend in a cabin i kind of like that he he there was such a long brody's shadow that was cast throughout the rest of the season he never really went away i mean because they had this child. And then in this final season, the conceit is that, you know, well, she's been in the custody of the Russians for seven months and she was denied her meds. So she totally unraveled. And, you know, there's a big question of whether she was turned or not. So so in fact becomes brody in a sense um so that's that's the that's the premise that's the premise that's one of them but yeah so she's she in some ways she becomes totally fused with him um which is kind of nice the good news is

there wasn't any traumatic stuff that happened to her over the course of this series she's totally fine yeah she's doing okay she's an average lady living in this series. No, she's totally fine. Yeah, she's doing okay. She's an average lady living in America, in D.C., working for the government, doing some stuff. Yeah. No, she has way too many lives. It's, you know, she's a magical creature. Yeah.

She's endured a lot. Do you, after you've played somebody for that long, is it tough to imagine that person just kind of dying for you? Yeah. She's gone. This is a very awkward beat right now because, you know, I'm still doing ADR for the show. I'm promoting it now, obviously. It comes out very soon.

And so I'm still tethered to it. I'm still kind of in it. I don't think it's really going to occur to me that it's over until we're in April and I would be going back to film the next season. I mean, right now, the pattern hasn't really been interrupted. Yeah, I'm doing what I've always done, which is recover, you know, have a holiday Christmas and then promoted and, you know, and, and so, yeah, I'm not quite there yet. And, uh, it's so big, you know, like this year I turned 40, we had our 10 year wedding anniversary and this nearly decade long odyssey of homeland is ending. So it's quite seminal. And there's like this really, it does feel like a stark line, the end of the decade. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's right. It's, um, uh, it's, it's, um,

pretty stark. And I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't, I can't even begin to think about where I might go next. It's, it's hard to believe that there is a next, you know. It's going to be a process. You know where it's leading eventually. You seem like you do. It's just really exciting. What? Where?

Angela, age 40, coming back for like a TV movie or a movie or something. Yeah. Angela at age 40. Yeah. She's got two kids. Aw. She's still in touch with some of the gang. That's true.

Yeah. Because all these reunion shows, these are the projects now. Yeah. It's like, oh, this was successful 20, 25 years ago. I got to bring it back. People love this. Oh, gosh. I can't just spend the rest of my life.

No, you can't. Redoing what I did in the first half. I bet it gets pitched to you, though. When the 30-something thing made me think anything was possible. Yeah. Because I was like, my mom's excited, but my mom's 72. But my mom is like really fired up. The show's coming back.

So I was like, once that happened, I was like, oh my God. Yeah. Well, we'll see. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Do you feel like Showtime is properly indebted to you? That was the first big show they've ever had.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. It was the first big show they've ever had. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It was like their first time. It's true. They really looked HBO in the eye and they were like, we have a show

that you're super jealous of. That's a happy characterization. It's true. Yeah, I think it is true to a certain extent. It definitely leveled the playing field. Yeah.

I don't know. I feel, I really feel very lucky that it was as good as it was for as long as it was. I mean, I'm so relieved that it was ambitious to try, attempt to maintain the quality of the show. Plus with all the real life characters shifting. Yeah. Toward who should be on the show. And it reimagined itself every season,

which I think is a reason why it was... Because then the Russians have to come in as the show keeps going, right? But in the first part of the decade, they weren't so relevant. Why would you have the Russians? It's all ISIS and all that kind of stuff. It didn't seem anyway. Yeah, yeah.

So it was like origami or something. It just kept getting refolded, you know. Have you had those like farewell dinners, all that stuff? We had one the other night, Fox and Showtime, through a really, really lovely party for us. It was fairly intimate and speeches were made and tears were shed. And, you know, it was nice. But, yeah, we had and we filmed in Morocco for seven months.

So we had a wrap party there. We filmed here in L.A. You filmed in Morocco for seven months? Yeah. What do you do with kids? Cyrus went to school there and Rowan learned to crawl there. Yeah. Yeah. He went to an American school.

We lived in Casablanca. And George Washington Academy he went. And, you know, it all kind of worked out. We've lived in South Africa for half a year. We lived in Berlin for half a year. We, you know, yeah. But your husband's also acting. Yeah. Well, Hugh took a role on this season. So that worked out. But. Is he a good guy or a bad guy? He's a bad guy. Is he a bad guy? He would tell you he's a good guy, but I would say he's a bad guy.

We don't actually have any scenes together. Really? Yeah. No. You didn't sneak one in like just in an elevator together? No, I would. In a line at Starbucks?

That would have been tough. I don't know if I would have. Yeah, it would have been tough. I don't know if I would have. Yeah. It would have been hard to maintain focus. But no, it was really cool. It was really cool to share the show from the inside out with him like that. Well, congratulations. I mean, that show.

2011? That sounds right. I think it was. Yeah. Because that was when Grantland started. Yeah. Yeah. So you went the whole decade.

Pretty hard to do on started. Yeah. Yeah. So you went the whole decade. Pretty hard to do on television. Yeah. Yeah. And I really, I feel a little Rip Van Winkle-ed by the whole thing. Like, I've been, you know, within that ecosystem, you know, and so much has changed. I've changed a lot, you know, but the world and the medium, the industry has changed a lot. So I don't quite know how it all functions now. I was kind of hoping it would end.

You know how some shows stay like one season too long and they do just some completely crazy idea that doesn't work? Yeah. I was hoping with President – what's the character's name? Who? Unhomeland. Carrie. President Carrie. Oh, President Carrie.

I think. And then like her meds get hid for the cliffhanger episode and then we just never know what happens. Or she's working for the Russians. Yeah, or the whole time she's undercover or something. But yeah, they did a nice job of never having that once. Because I remember 24 had a season like that where it's like alright same guys who did 24

yeah because sometimes especially when you're on that tightrope of it's gotta be thrilling and

we have to have surprises and turns I mean I think we really did see it as a novel yeah and

yeah do you think they knew what the ending was like years ago or was it one of those year later things? no, no,

no, no, no, no, no. Because we were mirror, always mirroring what was happening

in, you know, the actual world which we couldn't anticipate and it was hard, really hard in that, I guess it was the sixth season

when we were waiting to see who would be elected. And so we had this president character that had to be kind of broad and flexible enough to accommodate all the different possibilities. But you didn't accommodate for the possibility we ended up with. No, no, we did a little bit. I mean, she was kind of at a rogue spirit, which was a little bit similar. She was on the political fringe a little bit. Did she tweet 20 times a day or no? No, but that was stressful. You know, they were, and then once the outcome was determined, they could, they had something concrete to work with.

Yeah. So anyway. Well, congratulations. Thanks. Congrats on everything. Thank you very much. It was great to talk to you finally. Yeah, so nice to talk to you.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for the coffee, which I really needed. You're welcome. Yeah. Thanks to ZipCruiter. Thanks to Koppelman. talk to you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for the coffee, which I really needed. You're welcome. Yeah. Thanks to ZipCruiter. Thanks to Koppelman. Thanks to Wesley. And thanks to Claire Danes.

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