The Bill Simmons Podcast - Kobe vs. Duncan, Lob City vs. Sterling, and the "We Believe" Warriors With Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes. Plus: Best ‘Last Dance’ Lies!

Episode Date: May 22, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House and Jason Concepcion to run though Jason's list of the biggest lies told in the ESPN documentary series 'The Last Dance' (2:20). Then, Bill talks with NBA champions Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes about the inception of the 'All the Smoke' podcast, their thoughts on the NBA playoffs prior to the league shutdown, Matt's time at the Clippers during the Donald Sterling era, the complex chemistry of the "Lob City" Clippers, the "We Believe" Warriors, Tim Duncan vs. Kobe Bryant, the best teams they've ever played on, and much more (25:55)! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast on the ringer podcast network brought to you by zip recruiter. Hey, while some people in businesses are branching out during this time, you're seeing it on social media, athletes doing the Ben Roethlisberger, getting a haircut, all kinds of weird stuff. Well, there are places that are doing what they've always done. Like our presenting sponsor zip recruiter throughout all this, their mission has remained the same. They're still helping people find jobs and helping growing companies hire for their teams by bringing together candidates who need employment

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episode ever this week. Bill Murray. I can't even get Bill Murray on my podcast. The coaches, they get a podcast within five episodes. Bill Murray's coming on. I'm jealous. I'm envious. I feel spiteful. I can't believe it. And guess what?

You're not going to believe this, but Bill Murray was awesome. I don't even know if he's even been on a podcast before, but that's happening too. So you can check that out. Coming up on this podcast, going to talk for like two minutes about the NBA at the top, and then we're going to do the biggest lies of the MJ documentary with Jason Concepcion and Joe House. And then finally, people have wanted this for a while. The All the Smoke guys, Matt Barnes, Steven Jackson. I've had Stephen Jackson on with stuff before, but

never with Matt Barnes and never on this podcast. It's awesome. I love these guys. I promise you, you will enjoy this podcast or your money back first. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right.

The last dance is in the books. One last thing to discuss. Joe House is here. Jason Concepcion is here the books. One last thing to discuss. Joe House is here. Jason Concepcion is here. Yes. Jason went through the 10 episodes, noticed a recurring theme that MJ might not have been totally honest about some of these things.

House, I don't know if you were taking everything MJ was saying at face value. I wasn't. I don't know about you. Were you believing everything? Yeah, of course. Yeah. I was't. I don't know about you. Were you believing everything? Yeah, of course. Yeah. I was not.

And I loved the, let me just say that I love the documentary. I will spend as many hours as they will give us with MJ as he lies to my face. I loved it. See, I don't, I don't think of them as lies.

I just think of MJ operating in the fourth dimension. He's so ahead of his time, his, the, the time space continuum and his mental acuity in terms of running his world, uh, in adjacent to our world. That's the way that I prefer to think about the world that MJ occupied. Right. It's like Steve jobs. It's like what they said about Steve jobs. He, he bends reality to his reality. His reality is his reality.

Well, the question is, is it a lie? If you believe what you're saying is true, probably not. Well, I don't know. You, we should ask the president of the United States.

So Jason kept track of the biggest lies that he felt like just were hard to accept from MJ's side. He's going to count them down and we're going to react. Do you want to go? How many do you have? I have about six. Do you want to go six to one or one to six?

Let's go six to one. Okay. Number six. I don't have a gambling problem. I have a competition problem. Yeah. Now, I put this at six because while I think he clearly is a fiend for action, Michael Jordan, if he saw two ants crawling across the floor, would immediately look for anyone to take his action on which ant would win.

Right. It like is a fiend for it. That said, you know, he's got enough money where you could argue that it actually is not a problem. That said, the the interview of him with the sunglasses on denying the problem a gambling problem is iconic yeah iconic house when somebody says they don't have a gambling problem because if they did they would have lost their wife in their house is that is that an explanation you'd accept well well no as somebody that's been on the brink of losing my wife in my house, my own self, I will say that the MJ rationale, I feel like he was speaking directly to me. I think that that is an absolutely justifiable and fair description of the dynamic that he's dealing with there.

He just has he's motivated by competition. That's all. Right. I mean, we did see him, the low light of him from a competition standpoint was whatever game he was playing with that security guard who had the mullet. I don't even know what that game was. It was see who can get the coin closest to the wall?

Yeah. Was that what it was? It's pitching quarters. It's a famous game. It's pitching quarters. Pitching quarters, pitching penn's pitching quarters. It's a famous game. It's pitching quarters. Pitching penny. Yeah, pitching quarters, pitching pennies. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. It's a famous game. Who and where? Ask Jalen. Jalen will tell you about it. You got to ask Jalen. How bored do you have to be? And how limited do your resources have to be that this is something?

Like, House and I went to college together. We would all play wall ball in our dorm. We would hit a racquetball against the wall. And if it bounced twice, you lost a point. thing like house and i went to college together we would all play wall ball in our dorm we would hit a racquetball against the wall and if they bounce twice you lost the point that was a hundred times more entertaining than pitching quarters and was that what an that's probably my single favorite moment from the doc just because it's like what a cool relationship to have with mj where you're just around him that much and like these security guards can bust his balls like because you know MJ was pissed yeah

pissed that they showed him he goes why don't you go protect the United Center like he's fucking furious shouts to my guy hitting Mike hitting Mike with his own shrug not once but twice because he needed to make sure that Gus

saw it unbelievable right iconic all time that's great it. Unbelievable. Right. Iconic. All-time. That was great. Alright, so that's number six. I agree with that one. What's number five? Number five, I didn't push off. Now, let me just say this. I don't think that that's a foul at all. You don't call that in the NBA finals.

It's not a foul. You let that one go. This is like with Charles Smith, the famous Charles Smith play. Do I think he got fouled? Yes. Do you call that? No, I've made my peace with that. You don't call it. That said, people say that Mike didn't push off. Bob Costas among them. Then why is his hand on Brian Russell? What's it doing? Now people will say, okay, but his momentum, Brian's momentum was taking him that way.

Yeah. And Mike was moving in that direction too. And then pushed off on Brian Russell so that Brian could continue going in that way. And then Mike could take the shot. It didn't take much. He didn't push him hard because he didn't need to

because they were both moving in that direction. Now, again, should they have called it? No. But was it a push off? Yeah. What's his hand doing? I would I would have to me. It's like Mike should just be like, yeah, I pushed him.

Fuck, fuck, fuck everyone. I did it. So I think there were there were two other people on the planet who thought Mike didn't push off. And they're both interviewed immediately after his story in the doc. Bob Costas. And who was the other person? It was one other person came in and was like, yeah, he didn't push off. It's like, well, all right, we found the only three people on the planet

who thinks he didn't push off. House, do you think he pushed off? I think it depends on your definition of push. Now, there is no question that Michael's hand makes contact with Byron's waist. His hip. Yeah, hip waist. That's exactly right. But is it incidental contact?

Do the laws of physics, if we brought on a physicist and attempted to establish whether or not Michael generated oppositional force to propel himself in the other direction. I'm not sure that we would get there. So I just feel like we got to first establish the rules of the word push before we say push that Michael pushed him. Here's my counter. If they're on the edge of a building and Brian Russell's momentum is going toward the edge and Michael did that with his hand,

does he go to jail? I think yes. And does Brian Russell fall off the building without the push? I say no. He's going backwards, but he's not losing his balance yet. No, I think he keeps going.

The shove makes him lose his balance. He goes right off the building the way I see it. Well, then we should be talking about that MJ broke his ankles. Either way, Brian Russell loses. All true. Agreed. I don't know. I like that he pushed off.

By the way, Reggie Miller in game four of the Indiana series, they show that one. You weren't talking about a push. That is a two handed. That is a two handed push to Mike's chest. And by the way, that's getting our money's worth. That should not be called either. No, that's we agree.

We agree. Smart. All right. Number four, biggest lie in the Michael Jordan documentary. Number four, the kind of casual reveal. Now, this is outed as a lie, but the very casual reveal that the Bradford Smith nice game Mike story just never happened. And that Mike had had promulgated this conspiracy theory for a number of years before going. And that didn't happen.

I said that just to get fired up. It calls into question all these other stories like the George Carl dinner story calls into question all these other things. Yeah, I would have the George Carl dinner story as the accompanying for like the 4B right on the list, because if I'm George Carl and I'm watching that, I'm like, what? You weren't fired up enough for the 1996 NBA finals with a chance to be an iconic team. You needed it. But that dinner, he was very relaxed about it until George Carl snubbed him at dinner. Yeah.

It's like, ah, yeah, it's 96 finals. Tough to get enough energy house. What was bigger bullshit? The George Carl dinner story or MJ just casually admitting all these years later that poor LeBradford Smith, your guy, your bullet at the time that he made the whole thing up. So I'm glad that this is number four, because this is exactly the fourth plane level of existence that Michael occupied, you know, a different life experience than all the rest of us. I enormously enjoyed it.

I've enjoyed it so much. Now it's come out sometime. It wasn't a lie all the way up until this documentary. Michael conceded it was a lie some time ago, but it was great for the whole world to see what it took for Michael to, to rev himself up and to have the correct mindset. They beat the pants off the bullets in both those games, and yet he still had to come up with some kind of reason

to show up for the next game and drop 36 in the first half. That's not necessary. You didn't have to do that, MJ. You were going to win either way, bud. But I will say this it has led me I have a perpetual search in in eBay game worn LeBradford Smith jersey there's no price I won't pay for it it just hasn't shown up yet well more amazing Jason that LeBradford Smith scored 37 points in an NBA game like did you did you see his, the hitch in his jump shot?

I don't know how that happened. A broken clock and a broken shot is right twice a day. Apparently, unfortunately, LeBradford only got one game out of it, but it was what a game it was. It's that and Cal Chaney putting up 26 and 97 against MJ, the two greatest bullets, rated bullets performances. All right. The number greatest Bullets, rated Bullets performances. All right. The number three biggest lie of the duck.

Number three. I did not keep Zeke from the dream team. Come on. Come on. Well, so, all right. So if we're litigating this in a court of law house, he wins. Technically, he wins.

It's literally true. He didn't have the authority to keep him from the dream team. He did not. He wasn't. It wasn't his decision. He might have shared his views, but it is literally and legally accurate. It's legally accurate. I agree with that.

According to the letter of the law, it is. It is accurate. The spirit of the law, I it is accurate the spirit of the law i would argue is quite something else mike absolutely had the leverage to keep zeke off the team and had to know when he mentioned that he didn't care for isaiah that this was on the table for Isaiah had to know that. Here's what, here's how it actually played out. The, the hatred between the two of them was known enough at that point that they know he's not playing if Isaiah is on the team. So in a weird way, he's not lying because he's like, wow, you know,

I never said, but they also know he's not going to be on the team with Isaiah. So it's like a chicken and an egg thing, right? They're smart enough not to even bring it up because they know he wouldn't play with Isaiah. That's why it's number three. It seemed like that was true of more than just MJ too. There were some other guys. It seemed like the way they told that, that aspect of the story, it seemed like some of the other guys were not willing to play if Isaiah was on the team. Well, here, so you have Pippen, who also hates Isaiah from all the Bulls, Pistons stuff.

You have Bird, who in 87, he does, if he was black, he'd be just another good guy, that whole thing. And then Bird had to go save his ass in a press conference. And then you have Magic, and there were always all these rumors. And those guys had a real falling out in the early nineties. There was always rumors that, uh, Isaiah spread rumors about magic and nobody's ever really been able to figure out the truth. So now you have four of the best guys in the team who are out on them. Barkley hated the Pistons. It's like, here's the thing. If you're,

if you're going to be in Cobra Kai, if you're going to be Johnny Lawrence, you can't be amazed that Ralph Macchio didn't want you on a soccer team. Like, you can't have it both ways. Sorry, Isaiah. Number two. Number two. Every bull except me was doing drugs

and hanging out with women in a hotel room. They were all in that same hotel room partying, except for me. I was not there. Very, you know, very convenient. If one of your friends, Bill, came to you and said, oh, you never get a man. So here I was partying. You know, there was a there's a work party and I go into the back office there and everybody's in there just just going wild i did not party that wasn't i wasn't involved in that that was not me but i saw it come on i i just don't why even mention that everyone was in there

except you i i have to i i find the suspect has well Well, the sequencing matters, right? The way they set it up is he was a rookie. It was at the very beginning of his relationship with the Bulls. He's finding his way. He doesn't know the rules of the road exactly. Right. He's just drinking milk in his hotel room, milk and cookies at night.

He's looking for his teammates to spend some quality social time. And lo and behold, the entire group is convened in one room. Michael apparently did not get the invitation as a rookie. Maybe this was part of the hazing. And when he stumbled upon the scene they did invite him but i choose to believe that he was so offended by not having received the original invitation oh that he said oh no no you if you wanted me in you would have had me in and i think michael went and got three of his own girls and went back to his room i think that's fair so I did a deep dive on that team and there are four guys in that team who at

some point in the eighties had some sort of drug thing. So he, there's, I think 12 guys in the team, maybe like one injured list person. This story has evolved over the years. And I think it's evolved in the same way where we tell stories, you know,

like house that I watched, didn't we watch the Douglas Tyson fight together? There's a party in my house. There's probably was probably 35 people, 40 people there, but now the years pass and there's 200 people there in my head. Hundreds. So my guess is he went into a room and there's like five or six bowls.

There's Coke, bulls There's coke There's some women And as the years pass it becomes the whole team was in there The whole team obviously wasn't in there It's a better story I think it's an exaggeration more than a lie Okay I agree It's like when my mom tells stories

About when I was three And I just know they're not true It's like oh yeah you could speak Spanish When you were three. I say, no, I couldn't. Why are you saying that? You're like a lunatic. So I think the lie is that. He's making it seem like he was like this angel compared to everybody else when he clearly wasn't. Famously, Mike did not like to hang out and carouse. Yeah, I'm going to say that's not true. I'm going to say that carousing, being out, burning the candle piece of it was there

during most of the career for MJ. All right, number one. Number one, during the NBA finals against Utah in Utah, I, Michael Jordan, ordered a pizza under my own name. The pizza was then delivered past the front desk up to my room by five guys who poisoned the pizza. And that is why I got sick and then played in the game that is now known as the flu game. I was poisoned by a pizza in Utah. There's a lot to work with on this one. I just think, you know, five guys seems like a lot. I'm so glad this is number one.

I'm just imagining the phone. Hi. Yeah, this is Michael Jordan, NBA superstar shooting guard for the Chicago Bulls. I'm playing the jazz in the finals in your town. I'd like a pizza. Delivered it to room 12B. That's my room, Michael Jordan. Don't worry about the front desk. Just bring it on up.

Come on. He says they're staying at the Marriott in Salt Lake City. Everything's closed except for this one mystery pizza place. Right. That somehow has five guys working at it. And then somehow they have to know this pizza is for Michael Jordan. Right. I don't know why Tim Grover's there. Like his, his trainer dude. Like how about having Tim Grover order the pizza? I don't know how they paid for it maybe they paid cash so much of this doesn't add up how about this maybe it was just a bad pizza well that's maybe it was just like bad pepperoni from some shitty salt lake city pizza place why

do we have to have this whole complicated story right i mean to me the intimation that when grover says yeah these five guys in the hallway trying to look in and i was like mike i don't think you should eat this next thing you know he's sick it's like if you had a bad feeling if you eat pizza late at night and then go to bed and wake up not feeling well that's not a conspiracy you know if it even happened house what is the most realistic version of what actually happened that night? Well, we have the benefit of just today as we're taping this, a person who claims to have been the guy that prepared the pizza and delivered the pizza has gone on the record.

And his his tale, what he says about the, the relevant facts. Now, no, he doesn't say that it was Michael on the phone and that Michael identified himself. He simply says that it was a late call from the Marriott.

And this guy, by the way, uh, describes himself as an enormous bulls fan. And it's a, it's a pizza hut there in Salt Lake City, I think. It's the only place that's open late for a late-night snack. He says a call came in from the Marriott.

He said he was doing the math in his head. It has to be for the Bulls. So he makes the pizza. He's psyched to make the pizza for his own team. And he says it's him and one other guy that went to the hotel room. It wasn't five. He said there weren't even five people that worked at the whole store. But they made it through the security rigmarole because they knew the room number.

Now, the room number was given. And they walked it up there, and they were peeking. They were trying to see when they gave the pizza in there. So I think, you know, Grover might have exaggerated a little bit. But I have an explanation for what's going on here. Part of the story involves the

overwhelming stench of cigar smoke. And a crucial element of this story relating to the pizza is that when it came into the room, Michael Jordan spit to the pizza is that when it came into the room, Michael Jordan spit on the pizza so that nobody else would eat it.

How about this? Michael Jordan poisoned himself. Oh, because of the cigar? Oh, interesting. I love this. That's exactly right. A known carcinogen. The cigar, the tobacco from the cigar. He has tobacco juice

in his mouth and puts it all over that pizza and then eats that cigar pizza by himself and makes himself sick. You did it, MJ. I love this. That's amazing. It's self-poisoning. He did it. He said it in Game of Thrones. I love this. What Game of Thrones

character self-poisoned themselves? I'm so fine. This is incredible. Wow. I buy this. What Game of Thrones character self-poisoned themselves? I'm so fine. This is incredible. Wow. I buy it. That's a better. My theory was that it was a shitty pizza place in Salt Lake City that the pepperoni might have been out all night. I won't stand for it.

I won't tolerate any pepperoni slander. Yeah. Let me ask you guys this. How how many times did like ESPN legal have to go over Tim Grover's interview right there to make sure that he is not slandering this pizza place and the pizza guy? Because he doesn't say it, but he comes pretty close to saying they fucked with the pizza. He's like these five guys, they're peeking in. And then I said,

damn, Jay, I don't know about this. I don't know if you should eat it. I more importantly, why wasn't there room service at the Marriott where the bulls were staying? It was just like 1842. Great question.

Great. Nineties. What? All of you talk service. Ridiculous. All right Utah shuts down. Late night room service. Ridiculous. All right. I agree with that list. Jason, it was a pleasure.

House. Thank you. Pleasure as always. I like your theory. Talk to you guys soon. Good times. All right. We're going to bring in the All the Smoke guys in one second. First, FanDuel Sportsbook.

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Steven Jackson, Matt Barnes. Here we go. All right. These guys, Matt Barnes, Steven Jackson. A lot of people are creating sports podcasts. Most of them are bad. And these guys have actually created a really good podcast that breaks news and pulls good performances out of the guests.

And just walk me through, how did you decide the two of us? I'll start with Matt. How did you decide the two of you should even have a podcast and what were the goals initially um we were both working uh respectively for esp and the fox at the time we're literally back and forth and we just kept getting positive feedback like we like how real you guys are we like this we like that and then they kind of started tagging us together like you and jack or this this and that and i'm just like okay so then we're at my house in the Bay one time

kicking back, you know, doing what we do and we're like, we should do something together. And, you know, I can speak for myself. Like, I really didn't even know what a podcast was at the time, but I just knew there wasn't as much censorship, you know, with ESPN, obviously Disney and Fox being Fox. We kind of have to walk a straight line doing that, you know. So I'm just like, let's do a podcast. And Jack's like, shit with it he's like what is a podcast you know what i mean so fast forward to me speaking on the marcus cousins uh documentary the resurgent i think it was when he was coming back one of the producers there's like hey i heard you uh you're gonna you want to do a podcast i'm like i think so i don't really know what a podcast is. He's like, we need to talk to Showtime.

I'm like, all right, shit. Get a meeting with Showtime. No sizzle, no nothing, just kind of catching the vibe off me and Jack, and they took it. So I don't think we knew what we had at the time. You know, it's when we were talking about this, you know, before we started this, we didn't know what we had at the time. Like I said, we didn't know what a podcast was.

They were starting Showtime basketball, but they didn't really know where it was headed. And we struck gold. Well, it's the biggest regret of the last three years of my career. I just can't believe this isn't at the ringer. This is the most ringer podcast there is. Captain Jack, it's good to be working with you again. We go way back to the Grantland basketball hour for about eight minutes, you, me, and Jalen. But that was really fun. Captain Jack, it's good to be working with you again We go way back to the Grantland Basketball Hour For about eight minutes You, me, and Jalen, but that was really fun

That was the first time you were on TV, right? Well, you always say that you started me on ESPN But you really started me on TV And doing anything like that, period That was my first time ever getting behind a microphone Asking questions or doing anything like that You were a natural You were a natural.

You were good. You were good right away. I knew it. I was like, this guy has it. So I was thinking about you guys, and I want to go into the pot and all that stuff, but going backwards, I've been watching a lot

of old basketball games because I'm like, you know, I'm in withdrawal. I need hoops. It's the spring. I'm used to watching playoff games right now. The We Believe team was on.

A couple of those Mavericks games from 07. And the crowd in my opinion, so Steve Kerr, who's been in a lot of big games and has won championships and stuff, but announced, I think, game six and was like, that's the greatest crowd

I've ever been in the house for ever. And I'm watching that game and I'm seeing what the crowd was doing for you guys in those games. Is it fair to say we will never have a basketball crowd like that ever again? That was like the last perfect basketball crowd? I mean, because you had a lot of things that made that moment. You know, it was a 13-year playoff drought. That arena, Oracle Arena, was one of a kind.

That city, Oakland, is one of a kind. The team we had was one of a kind. You had a whole bunch of castaways that came together and found the love of basketball, one common goal, the love of basketball, and was able to build a family and a brotherhood and win games and have some success success along with the coach who let his whole team be them. Didn't try to transform anybody, let everybody be themselves. All that coming together made that moment. So I don't think that moment will ever be duplicated

because it was so many things that made that moment happen. Yeah, I think it was a perfect storm, you know, like Jack said. And I think the fact that I always like to – I remember along that run, I think one of the things we were proudest of was putting on for the city because that fan base was amazing. And they had been through some ups and downs in all major sports across the platform, but they had always been a consistent fan base. Whether the Raiders sucked, whether the Warriors sucked, A's, Giants, Niners, whatever it was, they always had a very loyal fan base.

So when we kind of put our, you know, got things going that second half of the season and that stretch run, we just continue to feel the energy build around the city and then the games. And, you know, I remember even in the first round of the playoffs, you know, during shoot around, like, first of all, the parking lot was filled when we're getting to the games early. You know, I mean, we get to, as players we get the game three, four hours before parking lots filled, barbecuing, smoking weed, loud music. I'm like, this is already a vibe.

We're not even in the arena yet. So we get to the arena during warm ups and it's filled up and people are standing and moving around. It was one of the most electric feelings and atmospheres I've ever been in. And it's funny you mentioned Steve Kerr because he said it, you know, to this day, it was the loudest arena he's ever been in. And he, you know, he coached the dynasty, you know, with the, you know, at the same place, but it was a different time. Tickets were more affordable. He was so hungry for a winner that it just all, like I said, it was a perfect storm for it to happen.

You know, in that game six, it's basically tied at halftime. And then in the second half, you guys start making some shots, and it's like a rocket ship. And the Mavs are, they're almost like Michael Spinks in the Tyson fight. Like, they're just getting, everyone's deer in the headlights. Everyone's demolished. You guys, Jack's making like 30-footers. Barron's dunking over 6'10".

Honestly, it's like the whole team got supercharged. I don't know. I just think as we head into this decade, especially with how expensive the seats have gotten, the type of arenas they're building, I don't know if we see that

again. Why didn't that team beat Utah, in your opinion? Because you look back and you think, man, it should have happened. People don't know, game six when we beat Dallas, BD came to us before the game and told us that he was on one leg and he didn't have it. He came and told us that before the game.

We knew we had to finish them off and we knew we had already had their number, but I think after we beat Dallas, we were so satisfied with beating them and doing that for Coach because Coach had a situation with Mark Q. We had to beat Coach and even going to the first two games,

you look at the first two games. Me personally, I feel along with getting screwed by the referees and missing free throws, we had them beat. If you look at the first two games and look at the referees we had the first two games, you will see what I'm talking about, Bill. We missed free throws, but look at the referees we had for the first two games in Utah, and then you tell me what you think.

Wait, was that a Donahue season? Was he in there? He was, right? That was his last year. Oh man, now I'm going to have to research this after the pod. Oh shit. You know what's funny is we're in the midst of getting a We Believe documentary together and

I sat down with Baron the other day and we were kind of just rehashing and we talked about this and he pointed out something that I never really thought of and he kind of feels like Nelly let his foot off the gas you know I mean it was so much built into kicking Dallas's ass that year and we did it and like Jack said we had celebrated like we had won a championship not that we weren't focused for the next round but if you look at the next round the the rotation was different than the first round. We were doing stuff that we hadn't done to get us there. And then on top of some very questionable calls down the stretch in game one

and game two in Utah, it just didn't work out for us. We felt like, because we had had success against Utah that season. We had a very good team and we had a chance to do something special and it just kind of died in the second round, unfortunately. Well, then you would have had the Spurs the next round, which would have been the captain Jack revenge series. You would have been ready for that one. I would have felt good about this series for some reason,

because I know that team, I knew him well. And I knew, you know, I'm not saying we was going to stop Tim, but they had nobody on that team to beat Baron Davis. If you look at that season, we beat them both times at home that season. So, you know, I was comfortable playing them. Well, and you guys had a whole edge that that was one of the ways to try to beat those Spurs teams because they were so polite. Such a nice group of guys.

Which is the way to really go at them was to really try to beat those Spurs teams because they were so polite. Such a nice group of guys. The way to really go at them was to really try to bully them and be assholes to them. Yeah. That was our specialty. Yeah. You couldn't rattle Tim. Tim was one of those guys that always had his composure, but the other guys on the team, if Tim's not going,

Tony's not really getting open shots. Manu's not really getting open shots because can't many of those guys in the Spurs organization create for themselves. You know, they want guys to spot up, shoot. All they want is the point guard to be able to create. So we would have been in a great situation. Matt, what's the best team you've ever been on

when you look back? Because you were on a lot of teams and you were on a lot of moments. What was, like, the peak? I think, you know, getting, although I got hurt going into the playoffs, probably the Golden State team the second time around, you know, with KD, Steph, Draymond. But, you know, our We Believe team was very talented.

I felt like we were one piece away. And then, you know, being able to have our podcast earlier at All-Star, you know, he really, like, we were all, after that season, we were all into the thing that we were supposed to trade Jay Rich and then kind of get trade to get Kevin Garnett. And when we felt like we could have got him, that would have been something special. But the Lob City teams, very, very talented, but too much ego between our stars. And then getting a chance to play with Kobe. Phil Jackson's last year where, you know, obviously he's diagnosed with cancer and he ends up stepping away. I got hurt.

I tore my knee that season in February, but they had just won two in a row going for a three-peat. And then kind of everything falls down at the end. So I would probably say... Well, it's got to be 17. It has to be the best team, even though you were hurt. But I think that's in the short list of best teams of all time.

Like, 121 points a game in the playoffs. Durant and Curry. Jesus. It was really ugly with that team. You know what I mean? And the time while I was there, the chemistry was incredible. You know, I mean And The time While I was there The chemistry was incredible You know You hear stories after

And all this kind of stuff But You know And I'm really big On picking up on shit And There was no At the time

It was all about basketball It was all about winning And That's what made that team so special Because there were so many Individual stars On that team Well

I did three Three or four podcasts With Durant that year, which he was great. And it was a lot like the podcast that you guys do, where he was just like, he's like, ask me anything. Everything's on the table. He was so happy that first year. Yeah.

Because he went from that Oklahoma City offense and that little tiny town to this big city. And all of a sudden, everybody's playing basketball. And my theory was always after he won and went toe-to-toe with lebron and was better than him in the finals and was and he thought he was gonna get the credit as like he was the guy now and it just didn't happen and i don't know if he was ever the same after that you agree with that ste Yeah, I mean, for him to go there and win the championship, you know, he expected all the praise. The only thing they could say was he was a snake.

Yeah, you're supposed to win by going there. Yeah, you're a traitor. They just – and that's what happens when you're at the top of anything, football, journalism, acting. When you're at the top, people hate to see you at the top. They're going to find reasons to pull down at you. And KD is no different. But I'm glad he got a stronger armor and able to deal with more things now and having a platform to speak his mind and kind of reply on things other people say about him. And that's all he can do. But you got to

have tough skin. Yeah. Matt, you talked about the egos with that Clipper team. That 2017 Warriors, as you said, everything was perfect. By the time we got into year three, you could see it wasn't. When did you know things had changed? If you're talking about year one, year two, year three

of that Warriors journey, when did, from afar watching it, when we were like, uh-oh, this doesn't feel right anymore? With that Warrior team or with the Clipper team? With the Warrior team. I want to talk about the Clippers later. I think it was after that first year,

you know, when KD clearly came out and proved to the world that he was the best player in the world and didn't get that credit. You know, we had a chance to talk with Draymond on the podcast about it. And obviously I retired after that season,

and he just kind of felt like the energy was off. KD's whole energy changed. So from the outside looking in, I couldn't really see it because I'm on the outside now, although I was still communicating with those guys. I couldn't see it because I wasn't in the locker room. But slowly, but surely, you know, things started to unravel. You know, whether it was his Katie's unhappiness with not getting the credit or, you know, you hear that there's frustration about guys doing taking too many shots. So you hear a lot of stuff. But, you know, it's hard for me to speak on because i wasn't in that situation but to me when you look back on the history and

actually watching the last dance it's harder the more you win because oh yeah there's more opinions there's more individuality after you finally win as a group like fuck it maybe i need to go get more money or maybe i need more shots or maybe I need this and I need that. So when you speak on teams that are fortunate enough to win championships and become a dynasty, you know, when Mike stepped away and, you know, when KD left, it's hard to say, even though on talent, on paper, these teams still have a lot of talent. But to me, the hardest thing is being able to stay mentally tough and mentally focused on the task at hand because it only gets harder with winning. I mean, you saw Mike was, you know, nearly driven into retirement the first time because there was just so much media

on his head and it's not even the type of media that there is today. So imagine that on steroids, you know, so I think the media plays a huge part and I think it played a huge part in the Warriors. I think it really, you win, everybody's like, all right, time for me to get more. Give me more money. Give me more shots. I need more minutes. And it just keeps going. I mean, this is why Captain Jack ended up in Atlanta after 2003, right?

You won the title. It's like, all right, give me a, I want a contract now. How, what'd you sign for? Like it was over 20 million, right? Well, they, they, they offered me a three-year, $10 million deal and really was trying to save all the money for Mondo and Tony. So I left and went to Atlanta for $1 million and ended up signing a six-year deal.

$36 million deal, but it equaled up to $42 million. Right. You had already gotten your title. It was time to go. This is why it's so hard to keep teams together just in general. And then on top of it, you have any of the ego stuff that might

pop up and all those different things. Like in the last dance, they didn't really go into this as much as I thought they would, but Jordan's talked about it. The 93 bowls, you had Horace Grant. He's just tired of Jordan at that point. He knows he has a big contract coming. Pippen's mad that he's underpaid. BJ Armstrong wants to play more. Stacey King wants Horace Grant's job. And these are all things that after you win a couple of titles, uh, it just gets harder. But I guess the difference with the Spurs, Steven,

was that when Duncan's your best guy, it's really hard to have bad chemistry, right? I mean, it's pretty impossible. Yeah, he leads by example. And when you got a guy like Tim,

you can put anything around him. You know, I think they won that championship with Dave in 99. Then Dave's last year, we won in 2003. That was the blueprint to pop that you can put anything around Tim Duncan and play in that system and win for, for years. And you know,

it's just one of those situations. You have a Kobe Bryant, you have a LeBron James, you can build around that. It really don't matter what you put around it. That guy's going to be dominant. And when a guy like Tim, you know, Pop taught others through Tim. You know, he got on Tim extra hard. So if I can get on Tim, you got to take it as well. So, and that's how Pop worked.

And if you didn't buy in, you know, he sent you out of there. And that was the quickest way to win a championship. Just go in there and buy in. And I think at the end of the day, everybody benefited from winning the championship and being in that system. On the outside looking in, to me,

I looked at the Spurs like the Patriots. You know what I mean? You have Pop, you have Belichick, you have Brady, you have Tim Duncan. So you're able to plug pieces in and out because the system around is so solid. Manage is so solid that you can plug players in here and there, and then they know when they're coming here, like they said.

I'm sure Belichick got on Tom. You know, Pop was on Tim. So if I can talk to Tim anyway, you damn sure are going to listen to whatever is going on and realizing it's all about the team and all about winning. You know, as a Boston fan, I really appreciated that you brought the Patriots in there. So thanks for that.

This is why I have Duncan ahead of Kobe though, which is an opinion that I don't think most people have, but I just feel like Duncan at basically any point of his career in the first 10 years, definitely. And then even the next four or five, if you put decent guys around him, you're making the playoffs. And if they're like even above average, now you're guaranteed 50 wins. And if it's like a B minus supporting cast with one other good guy, now I'm in the, I'm potentially in the semifinals and so on. And I just don't think Kobe was like that. I think if it was just Kobe and a bunch of mediocre guys, we saw what

was going to happen in the mid-2000s. You're basically in that 41 to 45 win range, and that's it. Steven, if you had to pick one of those two guys, who would you pick to build a team around? To build a team around? Me, personally, I would go with Kobe. I wouldn't go with Tim Duncan. Okay, tell me why.

Well, because of Kobe's attitude. I want somebody with Kobe's attitude and his approach to the game to lead my team. Tim wasn't really too outspoken, and Pop had to do a lot of that. I had to do a lot of that when I was there. I had to be the protector and the guy to get in guys' faces. I think with Kobe Bryant,

he's going to give you everything that you need in one body to lead a team to the championship. Pop had to put certain different personalities and different aspects around Tim Duncan for that organization to be who it is. There's been times where Pop, the second time Pop brought me back, he was like, the main reason I'm bringing you back is because the team needs some nasty. We don't have no nasty.

You know what I mean? So Tim was in the right situation. You know what I'm saying? Kobe Bryant, I think you can put Kobe Bryant in any situation, and he's going to bring guys along, give them the attitudes and more confidence, which Tim did too. But me personally, I would go with Kobe Bryant. And I feel the same way too.

And I think this is not to discredit anything that Tim done because he's obviously one of the greatest power or the greatest power forward ever. But there was a consistency throughout his career that he had that coach. Kobe went through a lot of bullshit coaches outside of Phil. You know what I mean? And an ongoing beef between him and Shaq where they ultimately had to choose between one. So I think like Jack said, and then watching,

I got chills watching the last dance when they finally showed like MJ in practice and how competitive he was and how he got up people's ass, cussed them out. It was about to fight him because that was Kobe. No matter what it took, he was going to win. And then you hear people like Channing Frye coming out and crying like, well,

that kind of shit is all when it all costs got, I mean, these guys wanted to win. It wasn't about making friends. When you go into the NBA, your goal is to win. Your goal is to win as much as you can and make as much money as you can while you can. If you happen to develop some amazing friendships such Jack and I that will last a lifetime, that's just a cherry on top. But you're not going in looking to make friends. You're going in to win. So guys that win at all costs, like how would you not want to play with guys that are going to do absolutely everything to win? You're going to hurt feelings, but that's what happens all the way to the top in any business, you know, to become a CEO or become a billionaire, you're stepping on people daily. You know what I mean? So to win championships and at the level, and as many as these guys won, that's what it took.

So when I was sitting back watching the last dance, I'm just like, holy shit, like this is Kobe all over again. You know, there's documented him elbowing the shit out of Sasha and cussing people out. And then you see, you know, you see MJ punching Steve in the face and cussing people like that. These guys were built different and and to me that's why those two are one and two in my book and LeBron is a very close third and has the ability to pass Kobe at two and be in the conversation with Jordan at one but but MJ and Kobe were different and like Jack said they have they had it all in one one package like they had the dog they had the intelligence they obviously had the skill level They had the intelligence. They obviously had the skill level. They had the mental capacity.

And they had that fire to win at all costs. And to me, I love that. Well, I feel like I just lost the argument because I'm outvoted two to one and you guys played against both guys. So I'm kind of fucked here. This feels like a loss. Matt, what's the number one memory you have of Kobe as a teammate?

Because you caught him at the tail end of his prime there, which can be dangerous, especially in basketball, when somebody is still carrying themselves like the best player in the league, but they're not anymore. Just his mental approach. His approach to the game every day changed. I got a chance to travel out to Orange County and work out with them. We're working out before the sun comes up.

We're getting shots up. We're running on the track. We're lifting weights. His approach. One quick story. We're flying to Spain one time in the preseason. Everyone's knocked out. I don't even know what time it is, but the whole cabin's knocked out. I see Kobe over there with some headphones on and bobbing his head. I'm like, oh, shit. This

dude's over here rapping again. Let me go talk some shit to him because I know he can't rap. So I end up going over there and I'm looking and he has this piece of scratch paper with maybe like 30 basketball courts drawn on it. And I'm just like, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm drawing sets in the triangle to figure out where you guys are going to be open. And I'm just like, okay, explain. He's like, well, I never look at the first defender. I'm always looking at the second defender and the help side. So I'm trying to figure out where you, LO, Ron, everyone else is going to be open when,

and he had his self on all different angles of the court and how the defense would shade to him and where he felt we were going to be open at. And when I saw that, I'm just like, this is insane, but it's a beautiful mind because he was upset with getting the most out of not only himself, but us, you know, Kobe was someone that'll cut your ass out in a heartbeat, but most of the time he'll just look at you because he's leading by example. He's diving on the floor. He's doing absolutely whatever he can. He used to get pissed off sometimes, but obviously me and Ron were the defensive guys. But if someone would get good and fuck that I'm guarding him, like move,

I'm like, chill out, bro. You know, like we got, but he was that kind of guy. And to me, that's what puts him ahead of LeBron is just that killer.

And this is no, you know, all due respect to LeBron, his greatness, Kobe was going to be a killer. And if we were going to sink, it was going to be because of a move that Kobe made. And that's what I want.

Like, like Jackson, I want a leader like that. And you've the closest LeBron came to tapping into that. Probably 2018, his last Cleveland season when I, I talked about this on this podcast, but I went to game one when he had like 50 and that it was the famous J.R. Smith game. I was there.

That was the most ridiculous individual performance I think I've seen on a basketball court because it's basically him against one of the great teams of all time. And he's not only controlling the game, but when he really wanted to do, he was just getting layups and it kind of didn't matter who was there.

Physically, it was honestly like watching Wilt Chamberlain or somebody. I know Wilt was like a center and seven feet tall and all that, but he's just like, I'm just backing my dude down and getting a layup. No matter what. Jack, do you feel that way with him that year, that that was something,

he was tapping into something a little different? Well, especially after that game one. His numbers after that game one was unbelievable. For them to lose that game, it really crushed me because I really never seen, with my own eyes, a performance like that live in the playoffs. I think that probably was the best performance I've ever seen by a player with my own eyes in the playoffs.

It was just unbelievable, man. And for him to lose that game, it hurt me because you definitely seen him tap into him being the best player ever. The way he was playing that night, walking to the baskets and one, just making every

right play. He was tapping into something different and that loss kind of pulled from that. Well, he also had that. I mean, there's one moment when I, cause I was sitting close. There was one moment when he got into it with Curry and actually thought he was going to punch Curry. I've never seen that kind of level of anger with him. It was like, he was,

he, it was almost like he knew he needed to get to that place. Had you seen anything like that, Matt? No, I hadn't. But i loved it because to me that was the old like you know to me he was he has that magic johnson charisma about himself you know what i mean like it was never you know mj and kobe are different you're not you don't want to you know compare the mentalities but lebron's greatness you've never seen him really have to get to do that you know what i mean to be able to see that to be able to see and i'll even take it a step further after i retired i want to say this season i got a chance

to kind of step away from the game obviously but sit course that at the next game uh when the lakers played him and the way that lebron can completely controls the game from being that close because i've always been a competitor so i'm always guarding him so I don't get a chance to enjoy the essence of what is going on to see the way he completely has his imprint on a basketball game and the way he's able to control it for me to see that courtside in person that watching through the tv I'm just like oh I get it now but I got I got to feel it as a fan and it's incredible because I I got a chance. I never got, obviously, a chance to just sit and watch Kobe as a fan, but to be a fan of LeBron, obviously a competitor, but a fan post-career, but to see the way he has his imprint on the game,

and obviously he's older, he's not playing the defense he used to play, but still he completely controlled the game from the tip to the final buzzer, and to see that as an athlete and and someone used to compete against them, it was incredible to me. Can you talk about the physicality? Cause that dude's 275 pounds. He could say he's two 50, but he's not two 50.

He's six foot eight and a half. And I would say he's at least two 70 and both of you ended up there. Cause he put on, if you look at like the 2008 Celtics series where he's still basically a kid, he's probably, I don't know, 22, 23 years old at that point.

And then after that year, you really started to put on the weight by, by team time. He gets back to Cleveland. He's looking like a tight end. What was it like when he actually was like putting his body into you and you're trying to just defend him on the low post? A freight train.

You know what I mean? The hardest, you know, someone that you have to write, you know, you see so many times when guys have to like try to wrap him up and he goes through them. Like he's someone you literally,

and with my football background, like when I tried to wrap him up, I almost had to tackle him because that's how he would take. And I was 230. He would take me with him like I was a child. You know what I mean? So you really have to wrap and put that extra oomph, put your shoulder on him and really make sure he doesn't get that ball up.

You know, but for him to be 6'9", 270, and moving like a point guard in that body, it's crazy. I played in Charlotte at 260. What? Yeah. 260? Wow. that body it's crazy i played i played in charlotte at 260 and um what yeah 260 wow my second year going to my second year in charlotte i went there i got that summer i blew up and um most of it was in my calves but uh i'm uh i'm gardening at that time and um it was easy to guard him the next year. I got back in better shape and I got down like two 35, two 40.

And he was just walking me to the basket. I mean, walking me to the basket. I, I, so if you ain't two 60, two 70, if you ain't a powerful in the league,

you ain't, you don't have a chance against LeBron. Right. Yeah. Cause like, even you seen the last dance, Karl Malone, and it's like the end of his prime,

Karl Malone at that point, 97, 98. But you think of Karl Malone as this physically imposing power forward. You didn't want to take a charge from him ever, especially because he's

putting his knee in your balls. But this big-ass dude, and I think LeBron's bigger than him. I actually think they're literally the same height, and I think LeBron's probably 15 pounds stronger than him. And Carl was like the strongest guy in the league in the nineties.

So I, I think that piece of it, the physicality of his game is the thing. Oh, is that jumps out to me when I see him in person where you're just kind of like a shack was like that too, especially younger shack. But you also like when you mentioned strong, big, like Carl imposed his will, Shaq imposed his will.

LeBron has always been so gifted. Like to me, I wish he would bully more. You know what I mean? He always is the strongest, biggest, fastest guy out there. He's got a way of being so agile and swift. But there's times where like I would look at it just as a fan, even in the league. I'm like, damn, why is he just, I would love to see him just fuck everybody i'm the strongest dude out here i'm gonna bully you but he was always so skilled that he never really took bully tactics

that you know you watch early shack shack used to bully people and take pride in it you know what i mean because that's what he had but lebron was so skilled that you know to me his game was always skill and finesse. But he could have, if he wanted to at any time, just bullied the whole league. dunking on their souls where they're just going sprawling. And it's not like 45 seconds. It's like a seven-minute clip of him just dunking on everybody and then knocking them backwards by 10 feet. He's another guy who gets lost in time. He was pulling down the whole basket. He was pulling down the basket the whole step. You know what I mean?

Like, Jesus. Well, what you were talking about with LeBron there, that was why I thought the Lakers were going to win the title this year. I thought they were hitting a point right before the pandemic hit where they were starting to figure out, like LeBron and Davis together physically, nobody can match this. We are going to get to the line 25 times in a playoff game, and we're going to get offensive rebounds,

and we're going to be able to get close to the rim. Hey, Steven, how did you feel right before the season stops who was actually going to win the title? Were you thinking Lakers or somebody else? Yeah, I had Lakers at the beginning of the season. I just haven't seen LeBron with that dynamic of a big man like Anthony Davis. I called Anthony Davis Tim Duncan on steroids because Tim wasn't athletic and he didn't shoot threes.

AD does all those things. I've never seen LeBron with a guy with that much talent. So with the way LeBron is playing and having AD, I had them winning the championship. I didn't see nobody beating him. If anybody gave him a chance, it would have been the Clippers. And like we just talked about, the Clippers, the only way they can beat them is by punking them.

And the Clippers have that capability. What did you think, Matt? I had the Clippers. I had the Clippers for the fact that with Jackson, they had a cage full of dogs. You know what I mean? And then adding the Morris twin at the end, Kawhi and Paul are going to do their thing.

But to me, they had so much more chemistry and camaraderie as a team because they had bought in. Like you drop, you think about it, you drop Kawhi in the season before with the Clipper team, those battling Golden State, the way Clippers battled Golden State without a real superstar. And there's no telling what would have happened that year. So to me, I get the edge of coaching and chemistry to the Clippers. And for another reason is outside of LeBron, who was really, I mean, AD is talented, but he needs a LeBron to kind of get him going. Who was going to get there? Who's going to get his shot off?

And to me, the Clippers had three guys that all can close games for him. So I gave them the edge. But at the same time, I would have loved to see LeBron, would still love to see LeBron win a championship with the Lakers and do it this year of all years to honor Kobe. You don't think it was a bad sign

that the Clippers were so up and down during the season that they never seemed to go on one of those 12, 13 game runs where they're just kicking ass, where they play well for two games, then all of a sudden they lose by 30, and then this guy wasn't playing it. I never felt like they were in the right rhythm. What'd you think of that, Jack?

I was thinking that too. You know, I think that they needed to have everybody playing so they can go into the playoffs with some camera strength and camaraderie, and they was doing that. Before everything happened, they had started doing that. They had started playing Paul and Kawhi at the same time, trying to accolade the Morris twin and the bench was playing well,

even Patrick Beverly was playing well. So I think they were starting to do that. I just think they wasn't at the peak that they needed to be going to the playoffs. And I think, you know, coming back from this might hurt them if they just got to the playoffs. Let's take a quick break just to tell you about a couple of ringer pods in case you weren't aware of them. Flying Coach with Pete Carroll and Steve Kerr.

Bill Murray is on this week. Boom Bust, the rise and fall of HQ, our new narrative podcast series. That's happening. The Wire Way Down in the Hole. TV Concierge on Spotify. That's happening as well. Behind the Billions, our Billions recap from Brian Koppelman and David Levine. Yeah.

And then I want you to just start thinking ahead to next week when we launch our new podcast with Rachel Lindsay and Van Lathan. I will tell you the name on Sunday night. We shot a pilot this week. This thing is going to be awesome. I'm so excited for it. So get ready for that. Get ready on Sunday's pod with Priscilla.

I will tell you the name. I will tell you how to subscribe to it. That's all happening on the Ringer Podcast Network. And while we're here, I hope you check out the Spotify app because like a couple of our pods, music exists, TV Concierge, The Hottest Take are Spotify exclusive, but in general, an awesome app that we're very proud to be affiliated with, especially I love being able to change speeds, pop into the library and just coming out of music,

just going right over the pods, the whole thing. So check it out all on the Spotify app where you can find the All The Smoke podcast as well. Let's get back to those guys. What was the best team? I mean, you won a title, so I'm sure that team's in the running. But are we sure that Pacers team pre-melee that season wasn't the best team you've ever been on? We would have played the Spurs in the seven-game series. We would have took their heart. That Indiana team was the best team I played on all around. We had Jamal Tensley.

You had me at the two. You had Ron Artesta at the four. You had Jermaine O'Neal. I mean, you had Ron Artesta at three, Jermaine O'Neal at the four, and Jeff Foster at the five. You had Reggie Miller coming off the bench because Reggie was hurt at the beginning of the season. He was trying to get well.

We had Scott Pollard. We had a crazy team, man, an experienced team. We didn't have a young team. That was Danny Granger's rookie year. That team was a talented team. I just hate the brawl happened because when the brawl happened, if you look at

the standings, we were the best team in the league. We had beat everybody already. The only team that was standing our way was Detroit. And we beat Detroit by 15 that game. I mean, that's the what if. The melee now and our test, like everybody knows that part. But that was always the great what if for

me for that season. Because even if you look at the finals, it's not a great finals. And it was like a Detroit team that wasn't as good as they were the year before against the San Antonio team that were Duncan's pretty banged up. He was coming off the Olympics. He's playing

basically on one and a half legs. Manu and Tony Manu was good in the finals. Manu played. Manu played his butt off in the finals. But it's, I don't know. I just feel like they were beatable. And then you look at that Indiana that melee game

you guys go into Detroit and you kick their ass it was one of the reasons the fight happened it was an ass kicking where you guys

are carrying yourself on their court like you're the best team in the league which I thought you were and I thought that's a what if season to me

a lot of people didn't know too that Ben Wallace had just buried his brother. So he was coming back from that. So when Ron fired him at the end of the game and they was getting their butt kicked at home, all that just

triggered like that. So I kind of understand why Ben reacted the way he did. But I hated having him because that was definitely a championship season for us. Matt, when we were at Grantland, we decided to do an oral history on the melee. So we sent Jonathan Abrams, who's one of our best writers,

to try to chase it down. And one of the first people we go after is Jack. And we're waiting for him after the game. Abrams is waiting for him after the game. And we're like, ah, he probably doesn't want to talk about this. There weren't a lot of oral histories back then. And he comes in and he's like, Hey,

I want to talk to you about the, uh, the, our test fight. And Jack's like, I've been waiting to talk about this for years. It gave like an hour. And I still have the email Abram sent me after he's like, you're not going to believe what just happened. Steven Jackson was so excited to get all of his thoughts on this. And then we ended up writing this great oral history about it. This Clippers documentary is out about, about 2014 and Sterling and all that stuff. And I was working on countdown that year and we actually had that Sunday game. We were, we were doing the, uh,

the shows, you know, before it was, I think it was the second game of the doubleheader golden state. And somewhere during the day, it became clear something was going on. And I never felt like we had the intelligence that it was getting to the point where you guys might not play. Um,

but we knew something was going to happen. That ended up being the warmup jackets thing. I look back and I feel like that might've been a missed opportunity that you guys just shouldn't have played. And there are a lot of forces at work. You have a lot of players who were like their own little individual brands and companies. And there's all these reasons not to do that.

But six years later, do you look at that and go, why the fuck didn't we play? Like, wouldn't people have been behind us not playing that game? If we knew we were going to get our asses kicked by 30, we sure wouldn't have played. Right. It was just a new, like I said, we were traveling in, I've been talking about this left and right doing interviews for Quibi about this, but we were embarking on a new territory. Social media wasn't new, but the fact that players using their platform and their voices hadn't really started yet.

So I kind of feel like, you know, that situation kind of opened the door a little bit, but not playing was definitely something we had talked about. And Golden State was going to be down with whatever we did. But I just kind of feel like as players, there was too much unknown for us. OK, if we don't play this game, is this what we got? I think we're playing against a young, hungry ass Golden State team.

They took us to seven games and we finally beat them. So is this going to be an automatic loss? OK, and if we sit out this long, do we sit out until Sterling's gone? You know, how long is it going to be until he's actually gone? So there was too many, too many unknowns. I think for us not to play, I agree, was probably a missed opportunity. But when you're in the moment and as players, you dream of getting a chance to play for a championship. And we felt we were one of the best teams in the league that year. I think we won 57, 58 games.

Yeah. We felt like we were talented enough to win so we didn't you know in in being a clipper in in being in that organization for me twice it was never about sterling and the team had always been shitty because to me winning starts at the top and he was never you know a winner when it came to sports um so when we got there it was always like we you would never we would never say no shit like let's win for Donald and let's win for Sterling. Now they might want to win for Ballmer because he's dope and it's a whole other atmosphere,

but it was never that. So whenever we got there, it was always kind of us against, not against them, but it was for us. It was for us. It was for our team. It was for our family, for our fans. It was never for him. So we just didn't know enough of the backlash or what would have happened if we would have sat out that game to take a chance on sitting out

because we felt like we had a team that could win it. So we fast forward, we're able to beat Golden State. We're beating Oklahoma City. We're having a better series than them. And then the whole story you know kind of resurfaces that you know sterling is refusing to leave now so then that whole drama kind of gets dug back up and i would never blame us losing on that because we lost those games but to me yeah you blew you blew that home game i went to that game there was so much just added input and

distraction put on of what you should have did and you know you should have sat out last year so there was so much should have what it could have shit that happened that it was just like damn but you know to me like and like i said in the document it was the worst and the best thing ever to happen to the clippers because the league was trying to get him out the second they found out who he was once he kind of bought the team and started showing his hands so you know although he walked away with two billion kind of bought the team and started showing his hands. So, you know, although he walked away with $2 billion and only bought the team for $12, so technically it was a win for him. The league as a whole finally got him out of the league.

Well, I was 10 years in on Clipper season tickets at that point. And Sterling was just like, was like owning a house and your next door neighbor is just the absolute worst on the earth and you just kind of get used to it. You know, you go to these games, he's sitting at mid court, he's dressed in all black. He's just like the grim Reaper. And he's just kind of there with the shitty look on his face. And it was like, all right, I'm going to try to enjoy the game anyway. But he was, you know, and everybody knew all the stories. It wasn't like when the 2014 thing happened, it wasn't like, Oh my God, I can't believe it. It was like everybody knew

they couldn't figure out how to get rid of them. Because it's like once you buy an NBA team, you're in. That's it. What would you have done, Steven Jackson? Well, actually, I got cut before it came out. I was, I think I was on that team

a couple months before that happened. I got cut in January. I got cut in January. I was on a 10 a couple months before that happened. I got cut in January. I got cut in January. I was on a 10-day, and I got cut. But I ended up doing a song about it, you know, because that was my last team I played on. Once I got cut, my NBA career was over. I ended up doing a song with the rapper Scarface called

America the Beautiful, basically saying, is this a court or is this a cabin field? You know what I mean? You know, with having this guy out here. And I honestly feel like he's not the only one. beautiful basically saying is this a court or this is always this academy field you know i mean you know what would happen this guy out here and i i honestly feel like he's not the only one but um it was devastating for me to see and i told matt this you know i i mean i thought they missed out on a moment too i think they shouldn't have played i think the warriors and the clippers shouldn't even showed up neither team should have showed up, you know. But they did what they could because, you know, a lot of stuff was going on.

A lot of people didn't know the repercussions of not showing up. You know what I'm saying? A lot of people didn't know what was going on. They just wanted to be, you know, I'm sure they just wanted to do something as a team. But me, I felt since I was just on that team and I got cut by that team, it was on the right that I speak on it because I was already doing music.

Well, I remember it just being a sad day, you know, because the game was so dispiriting. You guys were just like shells of yourself. You know, it was almost like you would have been better off not playing. But just in general, like it felt like a missed moment. I don't think, you know, obviously there's not going to be backlash to that, but I think it's hard for you guys to know that in the moment because you're thinking like, well,

shit, this could fuck up our playoff series. What if people get mad at us? And you're thinking all these variables, but now you look back at how the world works. I think everybody's on your side. Like, I don't know who's against you guys for being like, we're not playing for this guy. They have to fix this now. It's one of those things you realize some stuff after the fact. You talked about egos on that team, Matt. This was something

I was talking about on TV and everybody would get mad at me. I was like, look, I go to the games. I know a lot of people that work for the team. The Chris Blake thing is a real thing. There is a steering wheel issue with this. And this is the biggest issue that this team has. And everybody's like, fuck you. You're just trying to start trouble. It's typical talking head.

I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. I'm going to the games. These guys don't like playing with each other. I honestly don't know what to say. Could you feel that? How early did you feel that as a teammate? Um, it was weird because it was crazy because off the court

we were all so cool. Like, our families kicked it, our girls kicked it, our kids, like, me and Chris's kids still go to the same school.

So it was always such a cool energy, but when it came to on the court, this is, and this is kind of my way i look at it i've never really spoke on it publicly it was blake's team blake kind of brought the juice back to the clippers and that's true and then chris comes and then it's chris's team so there's a little bit of

natural animosity there whose team is it i've done this i've done that my accomplishments your accomplishments but then when they start playing together and putting that ball on the court they're there. Whose team is it? I've done this. I've done that. My accomplishments, your accomplishments. But then when they start playing together and putting that ball on the court, they're amazing together. So there was still a little back and forth because whenever Chris would get hurt, Blake would be superhuman. When Blake

wasn't playing, Chris is the best player in the world. You know what I mean? So it's just... But then together, they were still great. And then what else I saw with, which a lot of people might've not have seen was Blake and DeAndre were best friends off the court when DJ was just a rebounder and kind of doing what he was doing. And then DJ starts to kind of develop into a defensive monster and a shot

blocker and catching lobs just as beautiful as blake's so then there starts to be a little animosity between those two because dj's just not the homie no more dj's first team all defense and dj's playing on the ellipse team and dj's getting accolades now so it's just like so it's almost like i kind of felt like blake was almost competing against our other best players, so to speak. Yeah. But then there would be times where we would click in games and we were the best team in the NBA. There was no question with our shooting with JJ and Jamal, my defense.

We had Bledsoe. We had Darren Collison. We had Lamar Odom. We had so much talent to go with our three best players, but we could just never get out of each other's way. Never. And then you have the, in 2015,

Blake is out of control for the first two rounds. I mean, he's, he looks like he's one of the best three players in the league. And then you, you blow that weird Houston game and everything flips. What was your, what was your interpretation, Jack, when you walked into that,

the whole Chris Paul-Blake thing? Like I said, I was on it for three weeks, but I think I really didn't see much of it because I was there short. I think what I did recognize when I did get there was J.J. Riddick

was the patch-up guy was J.J. Riddick was like the patch-up guy. J.J. saw all the nonsense. He was the patch-up guy. I don't know a lot of people know about J.J. Riddick, but he's a straight shooter as well. He's a professional. One thing I noticed

when I got there, I think everybody got their right and wrongs. Did I do that right? The short when I got there, I think everybody kind of like got their right and wrongs. Or what was that right? Or did I do that right? The short time I was there from J.J. Riddick, even I had some conversations with him the time I was there about basketball and watches and stuff like that. But I didn't get a chance to really see the Chris Paul and Blake stuff too much. The time I was there, everything looked like it was peaches and cream.

One thing that I forgot to mention was Chris is a throwback old school player. So sometimes he's going to yell and say things. But what he's saying is right. I just think his delivery would rub Blake and DJ the wrong way sometimes. Yeah. When they're like the voice, the reason was definitely DJ. I was able to kind of breathe a bridge of communication because we know that, you know, Chris is a throwback eighties, 90 type mentality leader, but then that new era of the younger players,

when Blake and DJ were coming in, these guys were kind of, they never really had too much adversity. You know what I mean? Like AU was pampered and they got everything in the world and then college for a year or two and they're you know they're this this and that so the reality of coming to the nba and then you know being with amongst other talented players when you're really good you see it a lot and this is not in that necessarily uh you know blake or dj but you see like young players they don't react well to this you know what i mean like you have to kind of pull them aside and pamper them and say some others so that's what i would kind of do when chris might bark something out i'd just be like yo this is what he's trying to say but what he's saying is

not wrong just his delivery wasn't received and i think you know when you hear rondo bring up like something like everyone hated playing with chris because he's that wasn't true, but I just think the one flaw, and I wouldn't even call it a flaw because I was cool with it, but I was old school, was Chris was one of those guys that Kobe and Mike win at all costs, one of the most fierce competitors I've ever played. So if he's going to cuss your ass out, it's probably because you deserve it. If he's yelling at you, it's probably because he sees something out there that you should have been doing.

And that's not to say Chris wasn't perfect. And, you know, we didn't cover for him on the defensive end sometimes, but this is not. But Chris was our leader. And I just think sometimes with his delivery and the misconception of him being a bad teammate is really a misconception, was he was just one of those throwback type leaders

that if you had to get cussed out, he would cuss you out. If he had to yell at you, he would yell at you. And it was that situation. And sometimes I feel like that kind of rubbed some of our younger players the wrong way. You could feel it at the games. Chris was like the dad coming in and just yelling at who left the plate on

the counter. Like, here's just like the way he carried himself in games. And you could see something as like, all right, this guy, I'm glad you brought up JJ though. He hosts a

Ringer podcast. He's a true professional in the Ringer offices as well. I love him. Someone I didn't like, you know, there's kind of always an additive on this and that. So before I even knew JJ, I'm like, fuck this guy.

You know, this, this and that. And then I got a chance to play with him in Orlando. We became close and then became very close when we played on the Clippers. And it was weird, you know, because there was always such – and I'm sure I had a similar reputation. I'm like, man, fuck Matt. He's this, this, and that. And then when I become a teammate, like, you are cool. You're down to earth.

You got our back. So it was interesting to finally get to play with JJ after kind of having a notion of what I thought he was. Complete opposite. Amazing guy, blue guy, ultimate professional on and off the court. And, and one of the better people I got a chance to play with. Well, it's funny you talk about the young guys and how they don't handle adversity the best. Sometimes they don't like being yelled at. And they're,

they're a little bit pampered and we sound like the old guys on the couch talking about these young guys they don't get it but i do think it's true to some degree because we've seen it and how the league has changed right when people have adversity they just switch teams and they don't they don't want to be like oh man we lost this year we're gonna come back let's band together now it's like ah we lost this year i'm gonna leave i'm gonna go to this place. Jack, do you like where the league is going with this, where it's just people switching teams like they're at a pickup venue? Well, you got guys like Damian Lillard that's trying to practice law.

But then you got to understand, these teams, once Shaq got traded, all bets off. Yeah. Man, once you start trading guys like that, that shows that these teams ain't loyal to nothing. So sometimes you got to start doing what's best for you. Once you get that money, you got an opportunity to go somewhere and play with some great players, win a couple championships,

strengthen your legacy, and make money. I mean, guys can do that, but you don't want to be in a situation where you're on the team and your team is not doing well, and now they're sending you to a dog pound. Now you're on a sorry team for the rest of your career. So it makes sense. I think the teams that traded guys like Shaden did what they wanted with players

and sent players to bad teams when they should have been on great teams their whole career on purpose. I love the fact that players can make their own decisions like that. Do you like it as a basketball fan with the continuity of the teams though? Yeah, because it's different. Like we just talked about,

guys wasn't raised like, we had to earn everything. We had to prove everything. We played on courts with broken glass and all. They didn't have to do it. They played in gyms. They didn't even play outside.

So a lot of these kids now, it's different. So for them to be comfortable, you know, that's a lot of reason why I give a lot of props to LeBron James. We make sure everybody

even in fan back, for them to be comfortable and be able to choose what they want to play. You know, I wish I was in a situation where I could have decided to say, I want to go play in Houston. I want to go play at home. And it actually happened.

You know what I'm saying? These days, you can say you want to go play home if you're good enough, and it actually happened. You know, I think that's a good thing. Well, you know who started it? Matt Barnes. He was on like 12 teams. Some credit you with just changing teams

the moment you want a new situation. Opening the door. The podcast you guys have, people are coming on, and more importantly, they're super comfortable. And when people are super comfortable, they end up saying stuff. And when they say stuff, sometimes it makes news in the 24-7 basketball cycle.

How do you get these guys to come on and be this comfortable with you? If you had to rank its previous relationships, do you now have people that are volunteering to come on because they've heard some of the other pods? Why is this working so well? That's the vibe. That's the vibe we give off. I mean, you know, they, they only, they only become that comfortable because once they either they know us ahead

of time and they know how real we are, we already have a relationship with the vibe is laid back. But once they come to our set and be around us and see how we lay back, it brings them to a place. Okay. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm, I'm having a conversation with my boys. It's not like coming to a show. And, uh, but the them to a place, okay, yeah, well, you know, I'm having a conversation with my boys. It's not like coming to a show. But the good thing about that, a lot of the people that's been on our show, we have that relationship before we even call them to come on the show.

You know what I mean? And that's why it looks like that. I think it really, too, it starts with me and Jack's chemistry. You know what I mean? We're like brothers, so we'll talk shit about each other laugh at each other joke at each other and never take ourselves too serious you know so when we thought about this show when i when i you know when i once once he agreed to do something i'm just like okay i don't want a typical put a microphone in someone's face type interview i want it to be like you know we're in

the movie room we're in we're in the dungeon we're in the band cave, you know, having a drink, smoking a joint, and just having a conversation, you know, a back and forth dialogue. So I think the fact that, you know, Jack and I's reputations speak for themselves. We've always been straight shooters. And then I also think that, you know, there's no angle with us. There's no ulterior motive with us. And with some people in media, they want to get that one soundbite or that, you know, that, that, that piece that's going to go viral, that's going to cause disruption in these guys' lives, uh, one way or another. Now with that said, some guys will, you know,

some guys feel so comfortable that they will possibly say something that can have the same effect, but it's not because we're digging or prying or tell your teammate or how, you know, it wasn't, it was never like this is it's really just a're digging or prying or telling your teammate or how, you know, it wasn't it was never like this. It's really just a genuine conversation. And when people feel comfortable, like you said, they're more susceptible to just freely speak. Like there wasn't really a microphone there to begin with. You know, I have that environment where guys are talking like we're not like we're just talking. Because if you come, you know, if you ever come on the set we're playing music me and jack are smoking we're talking uh some guys are drinking getting haircuts yeah getting haircuts having friends come up and hang out for the day so it's really just like someone's coming to the house and kicking it you know what i mean it's really that energy and that vibe and and to me

i that's what i credit to our ability to get the best out of these people because it is just such an authentic type vibe. It's really, it's a hard place to get to. And I know I've had a podcast since 07. My only goal is for the person to get comfortable. Not because I want to burn them with, oh man, I can't believe they said that. We also don't do that, which I think is one of the reasons people get comfortable. But I don't use notes when I do a podcast. I want people to feel like we're having a conversation and kicking it like that. It's a really hard thing to pull off. I've been really impressed that you guys have created this world. It's only been like, what, 35 episodes, something like that? 30, 32?

Yeah, 30. That people come in now and they know what they're getting into. Because now you're at the point where people come on and if they don't know what the game is, it's their fault. If they're going to come on and be like, oh man, I don't feel good talking about that, or I

don't want to go there. Then it's like, well, why are you on this podcast then? Well, now we're at the point now where we have athletes reach out to us and call us because they want to come on the show because it's stuff that they need to say. They're tired of hearing stuff said about them that's not true. They're in a situation that came up in the paper, and they want to tell the real because, you know,

they're not getting the real story. So that's a good benefit from the show that I love, the fact that I love, the fact that guys are using us as their outlet because we didn't have that same outlet to control our own narrative. Even taking it a step further now, it's to the point, too, with me, actors and musicians, like, you need to have us on. It's just not just athletes. Let us come kind of tell our story so it really feels good

because we feel like that was our goal, to kind ofize our guests give them a comfortable platform they feel like they can freely speak their mind but that doesn't just pertain in sports you know what i mean like media and we're a part of the media now so we know but media is powerful it plays powerful roles in society in an ability to paint a negative perception or a positive perception about people so that's not only in sports. So there's so many misconceptions, and I kind of feel like media is at a point now, and this is not all media, but they're at a point now about being first and not necessarily being right. And when they're not right, not really worrying about the repercussions that may cause for the individual

that they're saying these negative things about. So that's why we kind of give these people an open forum. I mean, when we had Draymond, Draymond was, I've been waiting so fucking long to get some shit off my chest. We're like, oh shit, okay, well, let's go then. You know what I mean? So it's just kind of like a,

players can kind of exhale on our podcast and come really just freely speak because they know that it's really, you know, you're in the circle of trust, so to speak. What was your favorite one so far, Jack? What was the one you're the most pleased with? I like the Sean King episode. You're going to see the episodes that my favorites are the episodes

that I tell Matt, don't expect me to talk too much because the guests, I'm really intrigued on learning from them and hearing what they got to say. I think Sean King was one of those, but I think the Kobe Bryant and I, I hold the Kobe Bryant episode dearly. You can see in our faces, the admiration and excitement we had going to see him and spend some time with him.

And then everything happened afterwards. I hold that one close, but I enjoyed the Shannon Sharp episode. That's, that's my guy. We have been wanting to get him on the show, and he talked and showed emotion that he's never showed. You know what I mean?

Nobody's never asked some of the questions that we asked him, especially about his grandmother and his relationship with his brother and how his brother's like his father. A lot of stuff that he said on the show, he never spoke on before. And me working with him and me, you know, being a talker to him, a lot of it becoming like a little brother to him. There was a lot of stuff that I didn't know, you know, so to see that emotion from him on that show, that meant a lot to me. I think, too, the best part, it's hard for me to pick one.

Obviously, I would say Kobe if I had to just choose one. But the fact that, like Jack said, we know these guys, but we're still learning as we sit and talk to them, you know what I mean? Cause to, to, to be in a controlled environment where they're really willing to share their lives and their upbringing, their history. And I kind of look at it as, I mean, obviously one of the best things about it to me is every episode is a handful of people's favorite, you know what I mean? And we've had a wide variety of people.

So I kind of go on the journey where I kind of feel like we've all of them been great but stephen a smith kind of put us on the map because i got him by calling him out on the can on the weed stuff that he's always kind of uneducatedly speaking about and you know i was able to get him to come on the show and talk about that obviously kobe and then duane's duwayne Wade's vulnerability really opening up to what talking about the dynamic with his son who now is transitioning um to be his daughter the I think that's when we kind of crossed over to mainstream and the world and we've been able to build off that with Shannon Sharp with Snoop with you know you know, Steph Curry, KD, you name them, we grabbed them. But I think there was a few kind of monumental interviews that kind of put us on the map and then made us like, OK, these guys are legitimate interviewers, podcasters.

They really know what they're doing. And it was refreshing because, you know, Jack and I kind of we had no idea what this world was like. All we knew how was to stay true to ourselves, to stay true to each other. And for us to be able to kind of have the same mentality we played with now in the media space. I think that's why we get so much love and respect from not only basketball players, but athletes around the world. Period. Soccer players in Europe are DMing me and MLB players and NFL players just thanking us for some of the stuff we speak on because you know, they're either, they can't speak on it or they just haven't really had the opportunity to speak on it.

Well, I remember when you launched it and I was like, Oh shit, I hope, I hope not that many people see it and then we can get it at the ringer. And then you started having a couple of good ones. And then when you had Kobe on, I was like,

Oh man, the ship, the ship has left the port. This is done. Kobe's a wrap. How close to that was his death when you had him? It was within two months, right? So we had him the end of December. So it was a month away.

So we saved him for the new year. We were going to drop him, but then we wanted to come out of the new year with the bang. So we saved him for the new year. We were going to drop him, but then we wanted to come out of the new year with the bang. So we saved him for the beginning of January. I mean, that's incredible. That was probably the last big interview that he did, I'm guessing. Yeah, it's the last one that

we kind of knew of. It was just a special situation for me to get the chance to know him through fighting almost. We almost fought. I remember. To become a teammate. And we kind of became brothers after that off the court, you know.

So to get a chance to know Kobe, the person, you know, not the mom, but Kobe, the man, the father, the husband, the businessman. It was a blessing. And then to even travel further to our post-careers where I was seeing Kobe every other weekend because he was coaching Gigi and I was coaching my twins. So we ran into each other literally every two weeks. And when I tell you, he would always like, yo, when the twins are playing. So either two hours before the game,

an hour after Gigi's done playing, he would always take time to come see the twins and their team play. And always send the newest shoe. The twins got sweatsuits shoes, their whole team got shoes. But the crazy thing about it was he revamped one of his shoes and re released it.

And he sent it to the twins the Tuesday before the Sunday that he died. So it was just like, Oh my God, super excited. Oh my God. They're like the boys. I think I actually Instagram like, yo, we got the Kobe's and they, they did this, this and that to them and they're like the boys i think i actually instagrammed like yo we got the kobe's and they did this this and that to them and they're better now so i got a whole

bunch of 11 year olds running around in their kobe so the day the accident happened we were actually up in my place in the bay because we were playing a bay area tournament we're based in la we were playing a bay area tournament i was downstairs talking to some of the dads hanging out the boys were upstairs in the playroom playing and we found out and i go upstairs and obviously the twins have known kobe since they were like three years old you know he took him in started giving them shoes like at four years old they got their first pair of shoes so it was uncle kobe to them but then for just the rest of their team like i see the twins crying and i see that everyone is just shook, you know, and for me, it just didn't seem real. Like not this, not Kobe, like, you know, that's not him.

He's not supposed to go out that way, you know. So to be able to to get back to the point, to be able to, you know, for Jack and I and me in particular, to get a chance to know the man, not the basketball player, because we all know how great he was as a player. But to get to know the person, that's what i hold near and dear to our heart and in in our ability to to have one of his last interviews and knowing that we were planning on doing a part two because he was short on time and you know come back we'll do it again he gave me and jack a bunch of shoes that day right it's like god you know we went and before we even started the interview we went and sat in his office and he was talking to us about the books he was writing for kids and and and all the other stuff he was doing it was just so amazing to see like i said jack and i would be able to keep that same mentality we played with

and brought it into our podcast he had that safe same fierce competitive nature about being you know putting the first 20 years of basketball to bed and building this next 24 years of Kobe, the man, the entrepreneur, you know, all that kind of stuff. And for it to be cut short at 41, it just still doesn't seem real. Well, it's interesting, you know, he passes away and all the reporting and all the facts and the interviews that happened afterwards. And it was clear that there was a lot of stuff that was misunderstood about him as a person and just like the relationships he had.

And I feel like I follow basketball at the highest level and I never knew that he had a relationship with Michael Jordan. Like I just never, stuff came out that when Michael Jordan gave that speech, I was like, what? This was real. I had no idea. Are there other guys like this,

Jack, that you feel like people don't, people know what they think they know, but they actually don't out of some of these NBA stars. Is there another guy like this that we just don't understand correctly? Yeah. Allen, obviously he's the main one.

He's the main one to me. I mean, there's no reason why when they have all these NBA events and all the stuff that he's not included or his face is not involved, I think they kind of shied away from him because of the side of the culture that he brought to the game. His face and what he's brought to the game is just as big as Jerry West's picture on the basketball. For what he's done for guys from where we're from. You know what I mean?

He gave us the confidence to – he let us know that we can make it to the NBA, be successful, be an MVP, and not compromise who we are. Not compromise – Hold our own skin. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? You can be comfortable in your own skin. And, and hey i did that for a lot of guys and to this day guys walk around with tattoos guys walk around with you know we're wearing their hair like they want to you know even even even with the dress code and all that they have it has a lot to do with ala ibsen came to the league and i think he is one of those guys that don't get the praise he deserves. Absolutely.

He was also incredible in person. Just to watch. He was always... I wrote about this when I wrote about it in my book. When I get the season tickets and you would just mark down certain games. Like, oh, I got to keep those. Definitely keeping those. And it was just like, you just kept the Iverson tickets

because it was like... He was so much more amazing in person because he was just like, you just kept the Iverson tickets because it was like, he was so much more amazing person because he was so small. He was listed as 6'1". He was 5'9", 5'10", max. There's no way he was taller than that. Yeah, and was the toughest guy on the court every game.

I think you made a great point, Bill, too. To me, that was another reason why we wanted to do this show because I think there was such a misunderstanding of who who and i uh who jack and i were you know what i mean yeah that's what you know in the brawl but you know he was labeled a thug or a bad guy because of the brawl but he was there to help his teammates you know so he missed out on money and all-star appearances and got a horrible reputation because he was trying to come to the defense of his brother me you will look everywhere i, no one ever fucked with me.

So every time I got in trouble, I was protecting my teammates. Now I'm a bad guy, I'm a troublemaker, I'm this, this, I'm that. And then, you know, luckily post-career, both Jack and I have been able to kind of shed the negative stereotype that was painted on us through social media, now through our show,

through ESPN and Fox giving us an opportunity to kind of speak and like, oh shit, these guys are intelligent and they have something to say say but i think there's a lot of you know ai is definitely one that comes to mind but there's a lot of guys that there is that there's a misconception of who people think they are because they get a small piece of him obviously social media helps develop our personalities now but back when there wasn't that you know if you're painted a bad guy you were a bad guy you, and that was something that I had to embrace because I knew I wasn't a bad guy. But I'm like, fuck it. If they want me to be a bad guy, I'm going to be a bad guy. I'm going to brace it and make a career out of it.

But there was times where it was hard because I'm just like, you know, I'm not this thug or person they want. But that's just what the media has labeled me. So I think that was another driving force behind our show is just to kind of show the human side of us and our guests, you know, show the humanized side of Kobe Bryant. You know, everyone thought he was a robot that just, and he was one of the coolest most down to earth dudes you'll ever meet, but you wouldn't actually get a chance to know that, you know, if it wasn't for the opportunity, you know, of, you know, different platforms being able to, you know,

shed that light on situations like that. You know, I think the reason I like both of you guys over a lot of the other reasons was the authenticity, which, you know, especially with somebody like Jack, it's like... You have it, you know. We get it from you. You have it, too.

Well, you just kind of, you are who you are, and that's it. And you're not going to, whatever situation you're in, you're just too well well you just kind of you are who you are and that's it and you're not gonna whatever situation you're in you're just gonna be you i feel like we're losing that a little bit you know at the nba where everybody's a brand now and everybody can put out whatever they want to put out on social media to reflect whatever they're trying to reflect versus who they actually are. I think it's a lot harder to figure out who people actually are in 2020, you know, it's a lot of people playing. It's a lot of people living characters. Yeah.

Like they, they, they, they leave the house and they, they paint this, they wear this costume of being somebody they not. Then when they come home, they exhale because why it's taking the toll on them trying to beat somebody that they're not.

And that's what a lot, you know, a lot of people, you know, Tony, not Tony Dungy, Herm Edwards told me this. He's like, I look at the game of basketball from when y'all played, Jack, and I can tell y'all loved the game. Y'all played the game because y'all loved the game. When y'all walked outside, it was nothing else to do. If the gangbang

get in trouble, go play basketball. We wouldn't decide to go play basketball. You know, we didn't have too many choices. These days, these guys care about what the game can do for them, how many likes they can get them on Instagram, how many videos they can get them in, how many name jobs they can get by a rapper. That's the things they care about now.

And the game is different. So when people say that getting to the NBA and the talent wasn't harder and better back then. The talent is better now, but it's definitely harder to get into. I mean, it's definitely harder to see guys appreciate the game and love the game and the passion for the game has definitely left a way because it's easier for guys to get in and guys are having basically the ground laid for them with AAU and all that stuff now. It's a totally different situation. We had Kemba this year. I say we like I'm on

the Celtics. It's my favorite team. We had Kemba this year. The first moment was just incredible. Such a great guy. Great guy off the court. Completely changed the mood of the team behind the scenes in five seconds.

All of a sudden, the team's together. I talked to... Steve Kerr was telling me at the Team USA when they did that. He was just like, Kemba's unbelievable. What an awesome teammate. But he's not one of those guys who's like, I'm going to prove on social media today how awesome of a teammate I am. He's just

an awesome teammate. And you could ask anybody. He does a lot of stuff that nobody knows about. He does a lot of stuff for charity people don't know about. But he's, to me, it's so funny how we went from Kyrie to that, where this guy who, Kyrie, I mean, we can do that another time. Kemba, just the most authentic, great guy who loves basketball and just wants to be a good teammate and is who he is. But I think with that said,

I don't know Kyrie as good as Jack does, but I think Kyrie is another one of those guys that's misunderstood. You know what I mean? We've seen his mistakes play out in front of us and understanding how tough it is to actually be a leader. When he gets from an

under-bronze shadow, he thinks he can just come to Boston. Because I'm the best player, I'm a leader. It doesn't work that way. I think it's a bad rap too for his growing pains happening in front of our own eyes. I can't speak rationally about Kyrie.

I need a couple more years. I need more distance. Him shaking off people in the Buck series and trying to guard Giannis. I'm just like, what is happening? Why did this happen to us? Hey, we got to wrap it up. This was really great. It was good to, Jack, it was good to see you again. Matt, I'm glad we finally did this. I love your podcast. I hope we get to work together at some point in our lives. Keep it up. Great job. It's important. I'm really glad that

I think the Draymond interview is a good example of I think some of these guys needed a place where they felt comfortable and could just shoot the shit about things they cared about. So you guys fill that void and I think it's really great. So congratulations. Thanks for coming on. Hey, thanks. We definitely got to do some work together. I definitely see it's really great. So congratulations. Thanks for coming on.

Hey, thanks. We definitely got to do some work together. I definitely see it in the future, man. You're my guy. Like I said, I appreciate you opening that door for me.

So anything you need from me going forward, I'm here to do that, my guy. Jack, you're my guy for life. Matt, great to see you. All right. Thanks. All right.

That's it for the podcast. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Thanks to Matt and Steven. Thanks to House and Concepcion. We'll be back Sunday night on the BS pod. And if you want more of me, you can listen to the rewatchables because we did Armageddon this week

and we also did Back to the Future. So you can find those, listen to them over the weekend. See you on Sunday night. Enjoy the weekend. Stay safe.