The Bill Simmons Podcast - Kyrie-LeBron Fallout and Carmelo-to-OKC With Kevin O'Connor and Joe House (Ep. 241)

Episode Date: July 24, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor and Joe House to discuss Carmelo Anthony potentially going to OKC (5:00), Kyrie Irving's decision to demand a trade (14:00), the importance of All-NBA honors (18:00), John Wall vs. Kyrie (25:00), LeBron's blindsided act (35:00), David Griffin's best moves (43:00), Dan Gilbert's dysfunction (50:00), potential trades for Kyrie (56:00), LeBron's media strategy (1:03:00), and the big-picture move for LeBron (1:12:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's special What the Hell is Kyrie Doing? episode of the BS Podcast brought to you by SeatGeek. That's our presenting sponsor, the easiest way to shop for the best tickets. Thanks to the revolutionary grading system. Saturday morning, my friend Daniel, fellow Red Sox fan, emailed me and said, let's take our sons to the Angels-Red Sox game at 6 o'clock at Angel Stadium. We went on SeatGeek.

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SimpliSafe with two I's. And get a special 10% discount when you order today. That's SimpliSafeBS.com for 10% off your order. We're also brought to you by Joe House's two podcasts. You did a shack house right after the British Open, right? We had to get it out it was such an incredible end to the open championship incredible speed the 13th hole i was worried speed like his career would never be the same if they didn't find the ball and then he proceeds to

lay one of the great ass kickings i've ever seen in my life in golf and there it was now he's back humongous balls on that kid the biggest balls so. So he's won three majors, and he has, like, what, three or four second-place finishes in majors, too? He's in two second places in the Masters. I think one at the U.S. Open. He has at least three second-place finishes, right? Yeah, he finished outside of the playoff for the British Open a couple years ago. He has a couple second places at the masters yeah he's he's amazing as a very young fellow already looking like an all-timer he's already in the hall of

golf hall of fame i mean it's not like there's a very high bar there but he's won three majors that means he's in who has a brighter future jordan speed or kevin o'connor i love kevin o'connor okay i'm gonna have to go with speed kevin o'Connor. Okay. I'm going to have to go with speed. Kevin O'Connor says speed. And also House of Carbs, House's new food podcast that none other than my daughter, Zoe Simmons, said in the car the other day. I said, we're driving to get lunch.

I'm like, want to put on a podcast? Have you heard the House podcast yet? And she goes, I've heard all three. It's fantastic. I love House's food podcast. Zoe Simmons, big fan. That's the best endorsement I've heard so far. Yeah, it's good.

We got Chris Bianco and copy chief from The Ringer, Craig Gaines, coming up this week on House of Carbs to discuss one of the great LA places. Hopefully Craig Gaines, his career doesn't blow up and he won't leave The Ringer. week on house of carbs to discuss one of the uh great la places hopefully craig gaines uh his career doesn't blow up and he won't leave the ringer um and then finally talk the thrones our twitter game of thrones show we just put up episode two we archived it they went on last night all kinds of crazy stuff happened i know house enjoyed the nudity as he always does and uh and you can check that out on at ringer on our Twitter feed. All right.

Kevin O'Connor, Joe House coming up. But first, Pearl Jam. All right. On the line, the ringer's Kevin O'Connor, the ringer's Joe House. We're going to try to do a three-man pod, which has mixed success, but I think we can pull it off this time. But before we talk about Kyrie quickly, I tweeted right before we started taping this podcast that Carmelo and Oklahoma City are officially circling each other. And the connection there is Troy Weaver, who is, I think his title is assistant GM for Oklahoma City.

But he recruited Carmelo to Syracuse. He knew Carmelo since way back in the DMV days when Carmelo was a kid. And now they're discussing that. Kevin O'Connor, what is your instant reaction to a Carmelo Anthony OKC possibility? Wow, that's fascinating. Is that a place where they could potentially dump Enos Cantor? Send Cantor to New York, he could be the salary filler maybe?

Yeah, so if you're the Knicks and Carmelo's like, I'm out, send me to the Rockets, and the Rockets are like, we'll do it, but you gotta take Ryan Anderson for $60 million three years. Cantor, I think, is $17 million a year for two? Yep, that's all. It's a much better contract. And Oklahoma City has better

assets to give, too. Right. Maybe better assets. Maybe. They might be willing to give more house paul george russell westbrook carmelo anthony patrick patterson steven adams at crunch time in the western finals against golden state you're not gonna bet against golden state but you'd be a little more scared right well i think uh this news certainly has me interested in checking the odds at the western conference champion prognostication i'd like very much to know what i can get oklahoma city at right now right as we speak right as this podcast is being recorded uh oklahoma city is the

potential western conference champ going into the nba. I bet it's a good number. So you came to the right place. Obviously, I have a gambling problem. I've looked at this. And Oklahoma City, before this tweet, was 40-1 to win the title. A Celtics Thunder Finals, 70-1. 70-1. 70-1.

Just throwing that out there. Is LeBron playing for the Celtics? Let's talk about that. I don't want that one then. So yeah, who knows? They might just be circling each other. The catch here is that Carmelo's contract goes beyond the Paul George isn't expiring this year, Russell Westbrook hasn't out,

and if I'm Carmelo, the fear would be you end up on this team and then everybody leaves. The other fear would be OKC, amazingly, considering that they once traded James Harden because they didn't want to pay the luxury tax. OKC now. KOC, do you know they're the third highest payroll this season? Yes.

I think you've got to pay to keep Russ. I mean, you've got to keep him happy. mean you got you gotta keep him happy and if like carmelo if they were to really add him that that is really intriguing because you have three guys who can really really make plays for you at the end of the shot clock and uh you like you said they wouldn't be on par with golden state but man that gets you pretty damn close yeah i think the thing if if somehow they did add carmelo and you talk about Paul George, who, as you've written, is a terrific, spot-up, three-point shooter and just is going to help you space the floor. Now you have Carmelo, too. Now you have Patrick Patterson in the corner.

All that's doing is opening up the middle for Russ, who is one of the five most devastating going-to-the-rim, if only one person's in front of him, guys, in the history of the league. So the more they can do to space it out for him, the more dangerous they are. I still have a little bit of concern about Russ and whether he's able to really scale it back and not be in the high usage rate mode that he was once in. But it's certainly a better situation than we're in. And we have Kevin Pritchard to thank. I still haven't gotten over Kevin Pritchard giving Paul George to the Thunder for Oladipo. I still can't wrap my head around it. House, is that the worst trade of the decade?

Or would you put Harden ahead of it? I'm not sure. The thing that's interesting is the stories that are coming out now in the context of the Kyrie deal is that the other sort of best competing offer on the table involved Gary Harris and the 13 pick. Kevin, is that true? I think it's true. I don't know if it was actually.

Yeah, I think it's true. I don't know if it was actually – yeah, I think it's true, though. If that was your other best competing offer, then Oladipo and Sabonis, I think Sabonis is kind of better than what you're likely to get for that 13 pick. And Oladipo is better at the moment than Gary Harris. Gary Harris has potential, and Gary Harris has ambition of getting a mega contract. But you have Oladipo kind of locked in at a price. It looks better in that context. It still seems crazy to me that that's the best the Pacers could do.

House, what about just taking Kevin Love? I mean, let's just throw everyone else off the table. Would you rather have Kevin Love for the next couple years or Victor Oladipo for the next couple years? I don't think it's even a discussion. Do you? Well, what's the team? What are you trying to do with the pay?

If you're Kevin Pritchard, you're in his shoes. What are you trying to do with the team? What's your plan for the next three years? At least I have a better asset. I mean, I would argue the Oladipo contract almost makes him a prohibitive asset. I don't really think he has, I don't know, barely any trade value.

Oladipo's a negative. Yeah. He's a negative. He should have been a salary dump. That's what I felt about him. He's a solid player, but for that amount of money, I mean, that was way too much that they signed him for last year.

I mean, I thought trading George for Love straight up would have been like a poor move because it would have put you on the playoff treadmill. Like you just would have been like a 6-7 seed for the next couple years. But at the same time, if that's your goal, Kevin Love makes more sense than Victor Oladipo and Sabonis. And I think he probably could have shaken a little bit more out than just Kevin Love as well. It's just that deal still baffles me. house you know you made the point about the 13th pick uh that's true like you know maybe sabonis would be better than the 13th pick but at the same time like this draft was so good and donovan mitchell went 13 and he's looking like the steel

of the draft a couple other guys behind him bam adebayo i think would be a better better prospect than sabonis justin patton dj wilson there's a handful of guys that I would have taken 13 that I think are better than Sabonis. But each team grades these guys individually, and so maybe they're just super, super high on Sabonis. I think that's an insane evaluation if that's true. I'd much rather have the 13th pick. We did so much good stuff.

The draft guide we were doing on the ringer and all the mocks and all the content we had. We knew somebody good was going to fall into that 12, 13, 14 range. And it turned out to be Mitchell. And I don't know, it just straight up Mitchell for Paul George is a much better haul than old Depot for $21 million. Even if you have Gary Harris for a year and just let him go, I'd rather have the 13th pick. And also, we've never heard exactly what Boston offered,

and I think the Celtics have a habit of not making a deal and then telling everybody that they offered probably more than they actually did. But at the very least, let's agree they must have offered Bradley and Crowder

and a couple first-round picks that weren't the Brooklyn Lottery picks. I would argue I'd rather even have that over the Oladipo for $20 million a year. But anyway, that's another story. Let's talk about Kyrie. All right. I have 10 questions. We're going to answer these questions one at a time. The first question, I'll throw this to you, Kevin O'Connor.

How long do you think Kyrie Irving has actually been either kind of unhappy or legitimately unhappy with his Cleveland slash LeBron relationship? I think even before LeBron got there, I mean, there were reports going back to 2013, back to 2013, that he kind of wanted out. So I think, you know, it's been quite a while since before LeBron got there. And then since then, I mean, he has openly admitted like during their first season together that he wouldn't say it was a rocky start with them. Right. He has admitted these things publicly. So the signs have always been there that like these guys say it was a rocky start with them, right? He has admitted these things publicly. So the signs have always been there that these guys have clashed a little bit. So I think over time they got better.

I think they learned how to play with each other, and Kyrie learned a lot from LeBron. There's no denying that. But at the same time, I just think for Kyrie, he's at the point now where it's like, I want my own team. In some ways, you might call that selfish. In other ways, it's a little bit understandable, too. House, were you surprised to hear that Kyrie was unhappy?

I'm not surprised by it because the capacity for self-delusion amongst these guys we've come to appreciate is unfettered. You can't put a ceiling on how much these guys will talk themselves between themselves and whatever their, the team around them in terms of their ability to, to not be in touch with the reality of their situation and their skillset and so forth. But you know,

I'm disappointed because I think that Cleveland, as currently constituted, has every bit as much of a legit chance of taking on Golden State in just the way that they're currently configured and posing a real challenge to Golden State just the way they were when Game 7 ended a month ago. It was Game 5. You know what I meant. Game 5. Well, it's a pretty dramatic difference between Game 5 and Game 7. You were thinking Game 7 a year ago.

And I'm with you. To me, my fear if I'm running Cleveland is I don't want to overreact from the mild ass-kicking I got in the finals because you had, it was a big revenge finals for Golden State as Chase Serrano wrote about one of the best revenge finals that we've had in the last 35 years. Everything was going right for Golden State. They're completely healthy. They, they survived some really, really great offensive performances from LeBron and Kyrie, which can't be forgotten.

They couldn't guard LeBron or Kyrie that whole series. And, you know, if I'm looking at this as a Cleveland fan, I know I have at least one more year. I got to think like injuries have determined 50 to 60 percent of of how these last maybe 35 to 40 years of the finals have played out. And the best chance they have is just to keep this team together and then hope for some injury luck or hope for something weird to happen because that's the NBA. Weird shit happens all the time. I said in a podcast last week when I had Jimmy Butler on my podcast,

I was saying when we went into last week, when I had Jimmy Butler on my podcast, I was saying, when we went into last decade, we thought the decade was going to belong to LeBron's team, assuming it was Miami or wherever else, Oklahoma City, and Chicago. And LeBron won two titles in Miami. Oklahoma City won one finals game, and Chicago never made the finals. So you just never know. And I think that would be my hesitation with panicking with this Kyrie thing. I will say this, though, not to do a five-minute monologue here. So, KOC, you don't have an All-NBA vote yet, but we're going to get you on that.

We're going to get you an awards ballot this year. I'm making that my personal mission. I was on it last year. Oh, you got a vote last year. Yeah, yeah. I got one last year. You did a vote last year yeah yeah i got one last year you did this is tremendous oh now i need a new personal mission what you didn't look at the uh what everybody else voted for but i always get excited to see that list i i'm just too old the print's so small i can't

see anybody they release it in that little small print what is that like four font four point font but uh so i was figuring out my others for some reason i was figuring out my all nba teams and i think kairi is i don't know he's he's definitely one of the five best offensive players in the league i think talent standpoint he's in the discussion from somewhere between number seven to number 11. Once you get past the big six, big seven, Kyrie's in that next group. He's got to be discussed. I didn't really even consider voting for him for even third team All-NBA. I just felt like, eh, he's kind of up and down.

He seems detached sometimes. That team didn't play well. It seems like if you have LeBron and Kyrie in the same team, you should win more than 50 games. And I just bumped him. And I really think that's at least part of what this is all about, is I think Kyrie thinks I'm one of the best eight players in the league. I can't even make the All-NBA team.

And he didn't. So, House, does that, I mean, I know you're worried about the ego part of this with Kyrie, but that makes a little bit of sense, right? That this guy feels like he's top eight but can't even make third team All-NBA? But the thing about that is he's playing with the very best player. I mean, the competing considerations there are he has the best stage, the biggest stage. He's able to go out and prove to everybody that he deserves that All-NBA accolade. He's been in the league six years, and he's only made one All-NBA team in his tenure,

and it was the third team in 2014-2015. He has a combination of not being able to stay on the court early in his career, all 80 games, 82 games, and he doesn't play any defense. So people recognize that. People see that. The voters for all NBA see that. I don't think that he's not making all NBA teams because he's in LeBron's shadow. What do you think, Kevin?

I think it is because he's in LeBron's shadow. I think that it's just the fact that LeBron is the point guard of the team. And so one of the points a source made to me, like why Kyrie kind of wants out, is just the fact that he can do more as a playmaker, and he wants to do more. He's seen how guys like John Wall have developed with the heavy opportunity that he's gotten.

Whereas Irving, he's not the point guard. He's really like a two guard on that team. He's primarily an off-ball player who occasionally gets buckets at the end of the clock. But he's not a two guard on that team he's an off ball primarily an off ball player who occasionally gets buckets at the end of the clock but he doesn't he's not a playmaker for that team and i think that's really the kind of the hole that's missing with him i know like his defense it's true house like that is rightfully knocked his defense is horrific but at the same time like isaiah thomas made all nba playing horrific defense um i just think god russell westbrook made first team all nba playing horrific defense james just think Russell Westbrook made first-team All-NBA playing horrific defense.

James Harden as well. Kyrie Irving isn't the only guard who plays bad D. It's just he doesn't get those playmaking chances that those other guys do. He had those chances early in his career. He's gotten so much better. I don't think you can judge that. He's coming off a 10-game college career and then was thrown into a rebuilding team.

He was super young. They had bad coaching situations. I don't blame Kyrie for anything that happened pre-LeBron because I think he was a young player. I will say this, though, House. So Damian Lillard made second team All-NBA in 2016. Kyle Lowry made third team. Last year, Isaiah made second team All-NBA.

John Wall and DeMar DeRozan made the third team. I think Kyrie's better than all those guys, including your boy John Wall. And that has to be part of this. And people think, like, oh, the All- OMBA, these guys, they care about rings. But they care about all of it. They care about the acclaim. I'm sure he looks at like, you know, the fact that his shoes are number two for Nike. I think they're the number two selling brand.

He's huge with young kids. And he's a phenomenal offensive player. I actually kind of agree with him. I do think he needs his own team. I think he's done it. I think he's been the wingman for LeBron for three years here. And, you know, there's a lot less pressure in some respects because if he doesn't have it, LeBron can carry the offense.

So it's kind of like the Kyrie heat check happens like it did in Game 4 in the Boston series. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, watch out, here's Kyrie. But if it doesn't happen, it's not like it's going to murder his team. So the pressure of that, I think, you know, but maybe he wants it. Maybe he's ready for it. Maybe he wants, you know, his own empire. I don't know.

I see it. I really did feel like that was an unhappy team last year, which takes me to our second question. Did Cleveland try to trade him in June? Because I heard they did. And then it came out in the ESPN piece by Wynne Horst and Ramon and those people that his name had popped up in those things. I had heard that. I had heard Phoenix, that that was a lot more real than I think people realized,

that it was, as reported pretty much, Bledsoe and the No. 4 pick were leaving Phoenix. Kyrie was involved. I've heard different scenarios where Love was involved or Love wasn't involved. Indiana was involved. And his name was definitely thrown around there. O'Connor, what did you hear? I think it did happen. I'm not sure if they knew at the time that he wanted out.

That part's totally unclear to me, but I do think that happened. So House, his name was on the streets, to borrow a phrase from Marlo Stanfield. He heard his name was on the streets he didn't like it he's Kyrie Irving he's the number one overall pick he's supposed to be a franchise guy and they're kind of quietly

secretly sniffing around what his value is and trying to figure out if there's a way to maybe parlay him into Eric Bledsoe and Paul George can you blame Kyrie now maybe parlay him into Eric Bledsoe and Paul George. Can you blame Kyrie now? Well, before we go any further,

I'm not going to countenance any more of this disrespect. And I've sat quietly for a month now, while both of you dicks have said bad things about John Wall and his relationship to the Wizards, and Kyrie as a superior player to John Wall. I'm not standing for any more of that BS. John Wall is DC for life. He's where he belongs.

And guess what? He's better than Kyrie Irving. John Wall's never played with the best player in the NBA and he's never been on the NBA final stage. He's never been to an Eastern Conference finals. But Kyrie has been able to ride LeBron's coattails all the way through here, get on the biggest stage, and has the second most popular shoe for a guy that gets to play half the games. How about this, Kyrie?

If you are who you think you are, then why did the Cavaliers only win 50 whatever games? There was an opportunity. It was clear from Christmastime on that LeBron wanted to start getting some rest. He didn't need to play 35 minutes a game. How about that time, Kyrie, to go to distinguish yourself? And if the all-NBA team is important to you, Kyrie, you have 35, 40 games to go do it in the regular season. Go get it done, son!

Anyway. KFC, you're a better. Having said all of that. KFC, you're a better. Having said all of that. It's pretty close between those two, but I just think Kyrie Irving, at his peak, when we haven't seen it yet, I think his potential is a little bit higher, a lot higher than what we've seen so far the past three years in Cleveland.

I just think he's capable of so much more as a playmaker. If he had really the keys to handle that offense, bring the ball up all the time. Can you imagine if Kyrie got a lot of transition opportunities LeBron got? The amount of assists he would pick up, the amount of easy layups he would get. I mean, LeBron does so much for that offense um just bringing the ball coast to coast I think we'd see Irving get a lot more points than this is just from that statistically um never mind kind of the it factor he has with his clutch performances at the end of games house I'll just tell you having rooted against both of them in a playoff series last year. Kyrie scared the living feces out of me.

And I never, we had Avery Bradley last year who's probably the best on-ball defender at that position. And he was just doing whatever he wanted against them. He was torching them. And the difference between them, in my opinion, is Kyrie is unbelievable in the half court. He's one of the best shot makers I've ever seen in my life. And the bigger the stage, the better he gets.

John Wadamy is still, I don't want to call him a gimmick player, but I think he's just much better in a chaotic, up and down, fast pace. When the things slow down, he's just not that good in the half court. And the stats back it up. He had a lot of trouble when the game slows down, and that's what happens in the playoffs. Things slow down. KFC, what were the John Wall half-court stats?

They weren't great, right? I was in the process of pulling those up right now from Synergy. While you're looking that up, tell me how many times in those half-court sets LeBron James was on the floor for the Washington Wizards. That definitely helps Irving. What are you talking about? But at the same time, just individually, Irving has moments. Will you agree at least that Irving is a better shooter off the dribble?

Just that basic skill set. Come on, House. Sure, sure, sure. You know what? He's not one-tenth of the passer that John Wall is. But he also has a development. Name a player that Kyrie Irving's played with that's gotten a contract because of catch and shoot from the corner. I can name three Washington Wizards who have gotten humongous contracts

because of John Wall's passing ability. It's a great counter. I just feel like game seven. But that's something Wall's learned from. Yeah. He's had developmental years doing that like from from the start with washington he's been able to do that whereas irving had only three years alone in the last three years he hasn't even been the point guard like he's missed out

on three years of developing as a point guard he and he was stuck with uh i mean it's no secret waiters island and uh and kai reed did not get along. But the team he had was just a lot of one-on-one guys, and you throw in the bad coaches. Who were the coaches? Mike Brown was there for a year running the clock toilet offense, but who was the one before Mike Brown who was even worse? Byron Scott? Byron Scott and Mike Brown as his coach's house.

That's why I throw away everything that happened before LeBron. You really want me to talk about Randy Whitman and the development of John Wall and Randy Whitman? All fair points. All I can tell you is, Game 7, I wanted John Wall to shoot as a Celtic fan. I was like, please, shoot more

threes, John Wall. He was exhausted. We went through this. That was an institutional failure. That was the Washington franchise against the Boston franchise in the last eight minutes of that game. And Boston was, over the course of the season, better designed and much better prepared for that eight-minute moment than Washington was. And it all goes back to what happened the previous offseason

and the fact that Wall didn't have a credible backup point guard and a whole series of things that led to Wall being physically exhausted. And it was obvious to everybody. So your point about being more concerned about Kyrie as opposed to Wall in last year's playoffs, that's extremely valid. Of course that's the case. Kyrie has the benefit of riding coattails all season long. Oh, wow. And he comes out fresh and he did torch Avery Bradley. You're absolutely right about that.

I have those synergy numbers, the half-court numbers for John Wall and Irving. Let's hear them. So, okay. So, John Wall this year in the half-court scored 0.8 points per possession, which ranked him in the 29th percentile of all NBA players. Irving scored 1.02, which ranked him in the 83th percentile of all nba players erving scored one one one point zero two which ranked in the 83rd percentile and i know the counter argument will be yes well he had lebron james on the floor well let's look at erving's numbers before lebron james as a rookie ranked in the 71st percentile

second year 70th percentile third year 58th percentile whereas wall now at this stage in his career still ranked in the 29th percentile and half court scoring and you're right john wall you know he's really a coast to coast guy but at the same time that's really the big separation right now at this level is just irving's ability to create in the half court the stats show it i think our eyes show it as well hey listen i i can see it all of that that's fine i just want to hear one of you guys name a player that Kyrie's made better in his career. Great. I love that argument.

That's one of my favorite arguments. You're right. Kyrie has not made one person better that I can remember. But I'm not sure that's why God put him on the earth with a basketball. I think his job is, I think it's like a Westbrook thing. He's a usage rate force. House, you're upset, and I have something that's going to cheer you up. Picnics, potlucks, dinner parties, barbecues.

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Right now you can get your first three Blue Apron meals for free with free shipping. Just go to blueapron.com. Blue Apron, a better way to cook. Okay, third question. We have eight questions left. We're only at number three. KOC, do you believe Kyrie asked to be traded on July 7th, or do you believe he asked way, way earlier?

Because I believe he was pushing for it with chicago and his buddy jimmy butler before the draft and it's kind of trickled out a tiny bit but hasn't really come out in full force yet what do you think so everything i've heard indicates the july 7th range but logically it would make sense that it happened prior to that. Logically, it would make sense that it did happen before the draft, but everything I've heard has indicated in the July 7th range. So if they had shopped him before the draft, and this is part of the, one of the things I don't like about the structure of the NBA season right now is how fast the draft comes after the finals.

It was literally like maybe six days later. But there were some chess pieces that could have been moved around. I wonder, would Chris Paul have wanted to go to Cleveland over Houston for a year if he knew that Kyrie was potentially on his way out. How's – if you're Chris Paul, do you rather go to Cleveland or Houston for a year? Oh, it's got to be Cleveland, right? Yeah. You get a chance to play with LeBron. I want to make a very quick observation.

The point you just made about how quickly the draft comes, that to me is the A number one argument for shortening the season. We need a 70 game season. It goes too far into June. We need to let the teams, let the franchises have a breather between the end of the finals, the draft, the commencement of free agency

so that they're not making these crazy decisions on the fly because the reason we're talking about Kyrie Irving right now under these circumstances is because of whatever crazy thing happened between Dan Gilbert and David Griffin that I'll never understand. Well, I have a lot of insight in that, but let's shove that for five minutes. So if the finals ended on June 20 20th the draft was i'm sorry the finals

ends on june 10th the draft is june 20th and then you have free agency starts like june 26 something like that now you don't have even july 1st you can keep it the way it is but you can't though because that you're having like the best 96 hours of the off season during a time when everybody is going away for j July 4th weekend. You know, we see it. I talked about this on the podcast. That's the way it is now.

It's great. Is it though? It's not, I'll tell you, it's not great for the ringer. It's not great for people that make content because people are away. I'm sorry. Yeah.

I'm sorry. Everybody has to work. I can't. The, if, if Kyrie had been able to push for a trade, if there had been enough padding, the number of teams that he could have gone to goes up. It just would have been more fun. On the flip side, maybe the league likes it this way

because what's today's date? July 24th, 25th? And now we're talking about Kyrie for 72 straight hours. So maybe it's better that way. I think he sniffed out a trade earlier than that, personally. Question number four. Why did LeBron pretend he was blindsided by this trade request? I'm going to use the word pretend because if I'm in L.A. 3,000 miles away or 2,500 miles away, however far it is, and I know Kyrie Irving is unhappy after the finals and everybody in NBA circles knows that nobody on this team is happy.

Is LeBron really that arrogant to pretend that he didn't have any inkling that Kyrie Irving was unhappy what do you hear what are you hearing about this KFC well we know how powerful LeBron is and how much he's used social media to kind of uh form the narrative in some ways so I think that's really what LeBron did and I honestly Bill like I am so intrigued by what Stephen A. Smith reported last week. Not what he reported, but what he said he's heard Kyrie Irving's camp thinks, and that's that LeBron's camp was the leak for this initial thing last Friday with Irving demanding a trade. So that factor there is really intriguing just with everything that's happened

these past couple days. If LeBron was behind it for whatever reason, whatever his motives might have been. But that part's fascinating to me. Well, that was question five, so let's just get to it now. Did LeBron's camp leak the Kyrie story so LeBron can't recall. KOC did a masterful job of setting up how LeBron is moving chess pieces right now. And I apologize. I'm not sure whether KOC made this point was an awesome observation about putting the chess pieces in place to create the narrative that the organization and the organizational dysfunction is responsible for all of the momentum that is going to push LeBron away from Cleveland a year from now. And that this Kyrie stuff is already part of it. LeBron claiming that he was blindsided by the Griffin news. LeBron claiming that he was blindsided by Kyrie wanting a trade.

These are all chess pieces that start a narrative that's very compelling about the franchise being to blame this time around as opposed to LeBron making the decision. Yeah, and I don't think LeBron making the decision. Yeah. And I don't think LeBron has taken nearly enough shit, which is just the question six. We'll just merge all of these together. Is this LeBron's fault?

The short answer is yes. When you have this much uncertainty about what your long-term future is with the franchise, when you have this many people talking about lebron to la really since the finals i mean that's why we ended up writing about and talking about on the ringer and we tried to jump the gun a little bit on people because this was the narrative at the finals and i remember kevin i called you and i said you were gonna hold that remember you're gonna hold that story for a few days

and I was like we got to run this now we got to go with this now we end up doing a podcast because I was like this is every conversation I'm having at the finals is about this we got to reflect this on the site so these conversations are happening they're happening they're happening they lose the

finals the Cavs look super unhappy in game five, especially Kevin Love. I actually felt bad for Kevin Love on the bench. He just looked lost. Finals ends. This narrative will not go away. All LeBron has to do is say something publicly about, look, I made a commitment to Cleveland. This is why I came back.

I want to finish my career here. I want to win more titles. I have more work to do. I'm not leaving. This story is stupid. I'm not going to LA. Just stop this. I don't want to hear this narrative anymore. He didn't do any of that. He hasn't said one thing. If anything, he goes to the summer league game with Lonzo, right as the height of Is LeBron Going to the Lakers is going on he fucking goes to the to the to the Laker game with Lonzo the summer league game I was saying this would be like if if if my wife had heard rumors that I was cheating on her with some teacher at some high school and I'm like no no no I'm not what are you talking about I'm not cheating and then I just go to a

basketball game at that high school it's the same thing like it i just think it's crazy that he hasn't tried to squash this which makes me think it's real and i'm sure kairi thinks it's real and i'm sure all the calves think it's real um koc have you have you heard one thing since the finals that made you think that lebron to the lakers was not real no not a single thing and even what came out yesterday um from espn's writer chris haynes reporting that lebron will not waive his no trade clause under any circumstances this year like the the language behind it was like he will fulfill his contract obligations um this season but it has no say on what will happen beyond the coming season it's like well even that kind of just touches on the fact that sure he's in cleveland this year

but maybe not next year everything that's come out everything i've heard since then regarding his relationship with dan gilbert um just all this kairi stuff everything has moved you know the needle in that direction that LeBron's out. Let me pose this question to you guys, though. Yeah. There was an enormous intervening event between the end of the finals, game five, not game seven. My bad. And, you know, the onset of all this free agency stuff and the trade machinations and

so forth. And that was the fallout between Gilbert and David Griffin. David Griffin is the linchpin to this whole thing. So if I was trying to be a LeBron apologist, what I would argue is he had no obligation right after the finals to do anything other than get his ass onto the beach and chill out for two weeks and turn his brain off after another grueling run through the playoffs and into the finals. And in the meantime, he was comfortable enough leaving the team to the guys that have done pretty good stewardship the last three years creating a team. And he potentially made his preferences known in terms of players to target

and so forth, but didn't he earn the right to just turn his brain off and go away and then was potentially surprised, maybe not blindsided, but surprised that Griffin and Gilbert couldn't work it out. And that was the thing that really set all these forces in motion that have brought us to this point now. Stop there. So I talked about this on a podcast a couple of weeks ago about why is this narrative that David Griffin is such a great GM? I'm not against it. I just want to know where it came from and what the evidence is. And I actually did some research. David Griffin actually was not a good GM for Cleveland. I think he's very good at having great media relationships and I think he gets credit maybe for the Ty Lue, David Blatt thing,

which seemed like it had to happen and LeBron was unhappy and so on and so forth. But if you go back to where they were that summer, first of all, they hired David Blatt, who is basically never going to work again as an NBA coach. That was David Griffin's hire, right? They trade the number one pick for Love, which I think everybody would have done.

Now, you remember later that summer, they gave Anderson Vergeau, it was either that summer or that fall, they gave Anderson Vergeau the three year, $30 million contract extension. Remember that? And we all said to ourselves, why are they giving that guy that guy can't stay on the court? What are you doing? And

that was a salary cap murder. They traded two first round picks for Mozgov. Think about that. Lost them a year later. That was a trade that in the finals people, or in the playoffs, people got a little excited about, but still, two first-round picks for Mozgov. They overpaid Tristan Thompson and mangled that thing.

They gave him $85 million. They gave Shumpert four years 40. They gave JR 57 mil. They they traded didn't they trade KFC they trade a first round pick for chaining fry yet first round pick for chaining fry then a first rounder for Kyle Korver protected um that in 2014 the year before LeBron got there, Seth Curry and Joe Harris were on the Cavs and both got, they ended up not keeping either of them. They brought in a slew of free agents. I think the only ones that probably, Richard Jefferson definitely worked.

Darren Williams, I don't feel like that worked. Would you say that worked? Talking about the minimum guys. I mean, they didn't have like that worked. Would you say that worked? Talking about the minimum guys. I mean, they didn't have many options, though. Right, but I'm saying the guys that didn't work, it's like Derek Williams, James Jones, Mike Miller, Sean Marion, Kendrick Perkins, Chris Anderson, Larry Sanders, Bogut got hurt, but still, Dante Jones.

I mean, you can go on and on and on. I just want to know, what's the evidence that David Griffin did a great job on this team? He had LeBron James, Kyrie Irving, and Kevin Love. And Tristan Thompson was already there. Why do we think he was such a great GM? I honestly want to know. I don't understand it. They made the NBA Finals the last three years.

Yeah, because they had LeBron James and Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. That's why they made the Finals. I mean, that's enough. They had the third best player of all time. LeBron's been in seven straight Finals. The results are already at an exercise. We're in agreement. We're arguing both sides of the same coin.

I really feel like... I don't think you can call a franchise that made the NBA Finals three straight years, anybody associated with it, a failure. I'm not saying it's a failure. I'm just saying the fact that David Griffin isn't there anymore, people are acting like this whole thing fell apart because Griffin's not there. Who cares?

The owners run the team anyway. I'm interested in KOC. He's always got his ear to the ground. I mean, I know you do too, BS, but KOC, a lot of these stories over the last five, six weeks talk about the role that Griffin played in keeping guys happy, in keeping guys understanding what their roles were, in brokering peace between various camps. How much of that do you give credence to? A lot.

I think that's a big part of why David Griffin is a good GM. Maybe not great, but good. I think with Griffin, so three years ago at the NBA Combine is where I met Dave for the first time. And at the time, I really didn't know a whole lot about who he was besides he worked a lot of years in phoenix um and like a lot of people were like raving like he's going to be a really great gm it's great he got an opportunity so i think part of the reason why he has that reputation of being a great general manager is yes because a lot of people like him and a lot of people have supported him over the years when he first got the gig um but here here's the other

part like all those moves you mentioned bill i'm i'm with you in the sense that a lot of those were either poor decisions or short-sighted decisions it's something i've written about before that from the start i think cleveland should have been building through the lens of this lens of sustainability thinking long term with their decisions about sustaining success however you wouldn't do that you wouldn't build through the lens of sustainability if you knew lebron leaving, if you knew from the start you got four years of LeBron James, and then that's it, you're going to do all these short-term moves. You're going to trade two picks for Mozgov.

You're going to trade a top-10 protected pick for Korver. You're going to do all those things. If you know, LeBron's probably gone in four years. He's probably going somewhere else. And I'm just speculating here, but if I think, I think David Griffin's a smart guy, a smart general manager, I think he wouldn't have done those things unless there was some type of background knowledge that there's a chance that this, this fling LeBron being back is only going to be a short term, a short term thing. And that's

what's happening. I mean, that's what we're going towards. So maybe I'm just speculating again, maybe that, that was really the reasoning behind a lot of these short-sighted decisions because they knew they were running on short time. And maybe they knew they had to do those things in order to win a title. Otherwise, the four years would have been an utter failure if they didn't have that tremendous comeback against Golden State. These are all great points. And it goes to my point that we don't really know how good of a GM Griffin was because if you just like I listed all. And it was always like spend, spend, spend.

Spend more money. Spend more. Don't care about the luxury tax. Give away your future picks. So, you know, maybe Griffin was completely handcuffed in a lot of ways. But I think I don't know enough about the personality management he did behind the scenes. I know the team won 50 games and was super unhappy for most of the season and i know they they uh they did not seem happy by the end of the finals i'm not sure how much he could have saved that but um you know i just that it

bothers me when they it's a little like the doc rivers was a great coach narrative that somehow unfolded and then we saw what happened with the clippers these last few years the doc rivers was a great coach narrative that somehow unfolded and then we saw what happened with the clippers these last few years where doc rivers isn't a great coach he's fine he's okay but it was like doc river's a great coach that people were saying that because you know a lot of media members love doc rivers and he was friends with a lot of people and that gets pushed and pushed and pushed it's the same people that are wondering why mark jackson doesn't have another job mark jack Jackson doesn't have another job because his last year in Golden State

was one of the all-time behind-the-scenes disasters we've seen with a head coach in the last 20 years. That's why he doesn't have a job. He's a great guy. I like Mark Jackson, but those are just the facts. Anyway, we got to talk about propercloth.com really quick. Every guy knows it's hard to find a dress shirt that fits. Collar too tight, sleeves too long, shirts too loose. Guess what? I have

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So stop wearing shirts that don't fit. Look your best. Go to propercloth.com slash BS. Enter gift code BS to save $20 on your first shirt. Again, propercloth.com slash BS. Gift code BS. This wasn't one of my 10 questions, but I'm throwing this in just because it's topical considering the Griffin discussion.

How much of this is that Dan Gilbert, who is perfectly willing to just spend money? So on that perspective, he's a good owner, I guess. But how much of this is the dysfunction that just seems to be there in these Dan Gilbert organizations really since the late 2000s. KFC, what have you heard on that? I think that could be a lot of it with Gilbert. I think the relationship with LeBron James is not good still. From what I heard is when we published the piece back in June about LeBron potentially leaving, the next day someone texted me for an office executive, saying one of the main reasons he wants out is still the relationship

with Dan Gilbert. And that same week, the video was released through his outlet, the barbershop video where he talked about Dan Gilbert and the Comic Sans letter he wrote. I still don't think things are great there. I mean, Gilbert has never extended a general manager. Maybe those feelings also apply to Kyrie Irving as well. I do think that could be part of it.

And it's kind of telling that Chauncey didn't take the job. Because you take a GM job. There's 30 GM jobs. They're hard to get. If you want to become a GM and you're offered the chance to be the GM of the second best team in the league, you would think you would want to take that. He did not. Ty Lue.

Ty Lue is one of Chauncey's best friends. He still didn't take the job. So either... I mean, it's... One of the reasons Florida was that they didn't offer him a lot of money. I don't believe that. I don't. The guy's made it. Chauncey's made a ton of money already. I don't think he's

making a decision because the offer was $300,000 shorter than it should have been. I think it was one of two things, and maybe both. One, Ty Lue telling him, I think LeBron's out of here after this year. You shouldn't take this job. It's a disaster.

We don't have any picks, and we're screwed. Or Dan Gilbert's kind of a nightmare. I would stay away. It had to be one of those two, so who knows? All right, question seven. Can Cleveland trade Kyrie and make their 2018 team better? So there's only one trade that I see out there that is possible, I tweeted it already,

but it involves clutch client Eric Bledsoe who a lot of people would argue that if he can as long as he can stay on the court which has he has had a checkered history with that but if he's on the court and he's healthy um might be a better two-way player than Kyrie certainly not the offensive player but a much better defensive player um if they could get him from Phoenix, if Kyrie goes to Phoenix, is that, oh no, I'm sorry. Kyrie goes to, the trade ad was Kyrie goes to the Knicks. They send Nitalinka, the French kid, the number eight lottery pick to the Suns. Cleveland ends up getting Bledsoe and Carmelo,

and they send a couple contracts to make everything work. That was the most logical trade I've seen. I saw another one that I really liked, which was basically Kyrie, Tristan Thompson, and a contract to Memphis for Marc Gasol and Mike Conley. Readers are just mailing me crazy trades, and I've actually been enjoying it. But KFC, is there a trade out there that you think could actually make Cleveland better? Yeah, I think there's got to be something out there.

But at the same time, I don't think it's that Phoenix deal. I'm just thinking if it's true that Dan Gilbert made it clear to the front office that they want to get better, they want to retrofit their roster to better battle Golden State, if that's true, I think we've got to think really big here. And I don't think it would be so simple as a deal like that, where that deal makes too much sense on paper. It's too easy. I feel like it would be the type of deal that's extremely complex, a four-way deal maybe, where you're looping in other teams to get extra assets.

Because there's teams that can offer them those high-level, long-term prospects, but they might not have the short-term point guard to replace Kyrie Irving or something like that. And that's where I think you would loop in that other team. And the thing with Bledsoe and Melo, Bill, is the fact those two guys are really good players. I'm on Team Melo in the sense that I think you put him around other great players, he will be really good. If you put him on Houston, he's going to become Team USA Carmelo Anthony. His efficiency will skyrocket.

However, I do think with Cleveland, Eric Bledsoe really isn't a good spot-up shooter, and the ball would primarily be in LeBron and Carmelo's hands. Carmelo isn't nearly, nearly the shooter off the dribble that Kyrie Irving is. So while conventional wisdom may say Melo would replace that aspect that Irving brings, it's not necessarily the case. Irving is a significantly better half-court scorer, significantly better isolation scorer, and I think that would need to be replaced in some way or another. Either it would have to be balanced by more defensive players

or a high upside player that could really turn it on this season. That's what I would be looking for, some type of mixture of younger guys with upside and veterans because that way you set yourself up no matter what LeBron does next summer maybe your team looks great going forward and LeBron's like you know what forget LA I'm staying in Cleveland or it could be the type of thing where if he leaves you're looking at your roster and you're like we're in good shape we got a good haul for one of the best young point guards 25 years old in the prime of his career and for Kyra Irving that's

that's what I'm targeting I'm thinking really big hair. It's hard to find, though. But I think we've got to expand what we're thinking about for them. House, Tate wants to know if you think Charlotte can get Kyrie for Kemba Walker and Nicholas Batum. I love Tate. The wishful thinking. I agree with everything KOC said which is why I think what is going to happen is that Kyrie Irving plays basketball for the Cleveland Cavaliers this coming season

because I don't think that with the guiding principles all of those very sound principles that KOC just laid out in terms of the return that Cleveland ought to get for a player. It is incredible how young Kyrie is and how much of his prime is yet to be had. We've seen so much of him because of these returns. He's been in the finals three straight years. He feels like he's been around longer. So he's a tremendous haul for somebody, which is why Cleveland ought to just sit tight unless it gets the out-of-the-ballpark,

home-run kind of deal with the assets that KOC outlined. I'm not sure that Batum and Kemba quite fit the criteria. I don't think Cleveland would ever trade with Boston, but I think it's ironic that Boston probably has the best type of package that would help Cleveland short-term and long-term, right? Isaiah would have to be in it. You'd have to put Jay Crowder in it to make the contract work. And then you could pick whatever future pick you'd want to throw in there too. I don't think they would put the Brooklyn pick, especially now that Marvin Bagley might be in this draft.

But you could argue maybe that LA Sixers pick they own, that LA Kings pick, something like that. But Isaiah Crowder and one of those picks for Kyrie, which will never happen in a million years, but is a trade that could keep Cleveland at least somewhere near where they need to be. Am I crazy? No, I think that would make sense for both teams.

But at the same time, if I'm Cleveland, I'm still seeking out a better mix of some younger players that can help immediately as well. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. It's hard to pinpoint. if I'm Cleveland, I'm still, I'm still seeking out a better mix of some younger players that can help immediately as well. Um, and we, again, it's hard to pinpoint. It's hard to pinpoint. We all agree, Minnesota. There's no way. Cause I just don't see it. Well, I, if I'm Minnesota, Wiggins goes on the table for me in five seconds. I, I, I don't even blink. I think, I think you and I agree, Kevin, that Wiggins is really overrated in a lot of ways. He's just atrocious defensively.

But I think offensively he has a lot of potential, and he's young, and he might mature into something really good. But the Teague contract to me is prohibitive because they wouldn't be able to trade Teague until mid-December. And Houston would never trade Chris Paul for Kyrie, especially after they've had the press conference and started sewing the jerseys. But it would be the all-time Daryl Morey move to just flip Chris Paul for Kyrie. Be like, all right, I'm going to step in here.

I'm going to take Kyrie. Thanks. Thanks. I have a point guard who's eight years younger and is just better at this memphis i think is has to be considered at least peripherally as as a long long long shot possibility maybe not now but maybe in february if their season is heading in the wrong direction yeah denver is the other one but it's like they've they had the prior relationship you know talking trade with kevin love around the draft.

So maybe that's something you can revisit. I don't think Denver has that. It's just got, I need a blue chipper for Kyrie. You can't give me. I like what they have, though. For what? I like their assets. I like Gary Harris.

I like Juan Hernan Gomez. I'm not super high on Jamal Murray, even though a lot of people love him. Maybe Cleveland does. Who knows? But I like their assets. I love Malik Beasley. I mean, I'm not talking about these guys for Kyrie Irving necessarily, but I think they have a lot of good talent on their team.

We're with you. But that's the poo-poo platter if you're getting Kyrie Irving. Like Jokic, I think Jokic is the only blue chipper they have it's tough you know like the Knicks the Knicks uh I don't really see any way they can get Kyrie without Porzingis being involved they can take on a bunch of money with Kyrie but then you know now you're handicapping your team until it becomes a free agent it's tough. Do we all agree Kyrie is going to stay put? Because if I had to bet my life on this house, you're dangling from a helicopter

as people are shooting barbecue sauce pellet guns at you and you have to decide is Kyrie getting traded or not and your life depends on it. What do you pick? First, I'm catching as many of those pellets as I can and putting them into my mouth. And then I'm gambling on, I'm betting on my life depends on Kyrie staying in Cleveland. I just don't think that anybody can make a sizable enough offer for it to make sense for Cleveland.

And also you have an organization that's kind of a mess internally and will talk themselves into, let's make this work. We'll have a summit meeting with these guys. They'll say all the right things. That's not even a mistake. I think that's the right play. Well, it's a mistake if it starts coming out in November that they're quietly shopping Kyrie again. You know, if you're in on this, you have to be all in. You almost have to promise Kyrie.

Can you put a no trade clause in a contract after the fact, Kevin? You can't, right? I don't believe so, no. Yeah, so it would basically be the Jerry Maguire with Kush's dad, my word is oak. Yeah, we're not trading you, Kyrie. But then if it's February and they're, you know, 27 and 23 and LeBron, I do think, I do wonder if LeBron and Kyrie, this is about as public of a breach as I can remember, which

leads me to question number nine. Where does this rank among the all-time NBA clusterfucks with a good team because I would say that the Lakers in 03 and 04 with Kobe's trial and Karl Malone hitting on Kobe's wife and just all the complete chaos and then Shaq not getting paid and Shaq and Kobe just having the all-time most public breach, I would say that's a 10 out of 10 on the scale. I would say this is like an 8. What would you say,'s a 10 out of 10 on the scale i would say this is like an eight what would you say house eight out of ten no i give it more more of a six i mean everything here feels

to me more kind of reactionary in the sense that that each camp is reacting to you know leaks and and gestures and intonations and insinuations that the other camps are making. And the camps here are LeBron's camp, Kyrie's camp, and the Cavs' camp. And everybody's doing a little lean, little body shuffle. It doesn't feel like a full-out breach. I don't think Kyrie is going to be rapping at LeBron and asking him how his ass tastes. Yeah, that's true. House, out of those three camps, which is the one that employs a famous and successful and well-known media strategist?

Out of those three camps. Do you know the answer? That's LeBron's camp, right? Yeah. Adam Mendelsohn, his actual media strategist. That's his title. So I would be worried if I'm Kyrie about heading uh going heading heading into uh nba internet vietnam with uh battling lebron and his media strategist koc where does this rank for you the all-time nba

clusterfucks pretty highly i'd give it a seven seven out of ten for this um i think i think if we hear a little bit more like look we're only three days into this uh more more could leak out if irving gets traded right um i think we could rank it a little bit higher um if more develops over the coming weeks and months you know there was a thing that and i think the guy deleted it but i saw it on uh on reddit about somebody in kairi's camp went after lebron pretty hard on his instagram account and then people connected the dots, and then it disappeared. Oh, yeah. By the way, that is Tate's favorite.

Tate's corner is people in somebody's camp crossing the line on social media and then having to redact it or delete the account. It's his all-time favorite NBA beef. I'm here. Tate. Yeah, Tate. That'll happen. At some point, I'm going to try to have a beef and have Tate defend me on his Instagram

and then delete it in two hours just so he can live vicariously through the experience of it. But I think this could get worse over the week because everyone's talking about it. More importantly, there's nothing else to talk about right now. There's nothing going on. What are we going to talk about, the baseball trade deadline? There's nothing happening. Football's not starting yet. There's no Olympics. Football's not starting yet. There's no Olympics.

There's no World Cup. I mean, people were excited about the Gold Cup this weekend. Did we even know what the Gold Cup was 15 years ago? Everyone's like, oh, the Gold Cup. Unbelievable. Josie Altidore goal. I was into it. There's nothing going on.

So I just think this can keep going and going and going and going. Last question. Why isn't LeBon getting criticized more beyond the obvious reason of that he has a media strategist doesn't it feel like everybody should be kind of collectively going wow this guy's really screwed up the situation he had the second best team in the league and all these assets and the uncertainty that he just seems to bring with him wherever he goes has now potentially submarine this team. Do you feel like LeBron went from an era where he got criticized too much to I'm not sure he's getting criticized enough?

What do you think on that, House? I am going to sound like I work with Adam Mendelsohn. Adam, is that his name? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what there is to criticize LeBron about. All he's done, he averaged a triple-double in the finals. All he's done is deliver a finals to every franchise that he's played for the past seven years.

I mean, all two franchises. But still, they have a wonderful team around him. He's made his preferences known in terms of coaches and the players that he wants to play with. And they have had a lot of chances to win the NBA Finals. So I don't think he's responsible for instability. He has properly leveraged the terrific advantage that he has, which is the right to self-determine by way of these one-year, two-year deals, and that's it.

Let me interrupt you because because this will hit close to home and i really want you to i don't feel like you fully understanding this part yet so let's say anthony bourdain decides he wants to do a podcast and there's rumors that the ringer is talking to anthony bourdain about taking over house of carbs from joe house just float it's floating in the app people are reporting it like it's a real like Ringer is talking to Anthony Bourdain about taking over House of Carbs from Joe House. It's floating in the app and people are reporting it like they would with an NBA story. And I don't do anything. I say nothing to you.

We talk about it. You bring it up. I play dumb or I pretend my phone went dead. And it's just kind of lingering for weeks and weeks as you wonder if you're going to get replaced on House of Carbs. Isn't this how Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving have felt for most of 2017 or am I crazy? Well, first of all, I would say bring it. Wait till you see what I have Adam Rappaport and Jacko put out on the House of Carbs Reddit. Wait till you see those Reddits. I say bring it on, Daddy. But secondly, I mean, it's just a turn to Machiavellian. It's just, I love a conspiracy theory.

You know this about me. But to sit and say that the king is sitting up there playing Game of Thrones with the caval with the uh cavaliers it's just a turn too much i think he's focused mainly on making sure that he's healthy continuing to play 110 games a season and you know uh being the the multimedia mogul that he is and wants to be and that takes up enough of his time he doesn't need to be playing uh you know basketball whisperer behind the scenes also yeah but but that's kind of what's going on though if if this was the team he wanted to roll with and the nucleus he wanted to roll with then he would just say that publicly and it's over but obviously it's not so he is both um you know he's not stuck up for his dudes that he just won a title with a year ago.

But then also, he's not really proactively... Who has he left out to dry? Why doesn't he have to say anything? Why doesn't he have to say anything? Because the whole reason this is all happening is because he hasn't said anything. Like, all he has to do is say, I'm staying in Cleveland and these are my guys. And he hasn't done it. Maybe this is just the way the NBA is now.

Maybe this is the decade of you just get to pick up and go every time things don't go right for you. Maybe that's where we are in 2017. But I don't know know isn't part of adversity building a team yeah but the lakers lost in 84 matt kareem wasn't like ah maybe we need a new point guard maybe magic needs to go you know it's not the way it used to work now that now the way it works is something bad happens now everybody's got to leave. We vigorously defended KD's right to self-determine just a summer ago. We were having this conversation. You and I vigorously defending Kevin Durant's right to choose the team

and the city and the franchise he wanted to be with. How is this any different now for LeBron? I think it's different in the sense that he's the third best player of all time and made a big fuss about I'm coming home to Cleveland and I have unfinished business and all this stuff and handpicked his team and he's the unequivocal leader. I just think he has more equity in Cleveland. Well, I mean, let's be honest. All of this is about the fact that he's leaving in a year. And that's why Kyrie wants to get out. KOC, isn't that ultimately coming full circle?. All of this is about the fact that he's leaving in a year, and that's why Kyrie wants to get out.

KOC, isn't that ultimately coming full circle? That's what this is about, is that everybody thinks LeBron is leaving, including LeBron James, and that leads to Kyrie trying to proactively control his own destiny. Yes. I think Kyrie has learned a lot from LeBron. I think in that sense that he knows that he can control his destiny each year, too. I think he wants to go to a place where he has that spotlight,

and he's learned that from LeBron James. As for the point that each of you guys are making, both of you guys are being fair in terms of, yes, LeBron maybe isn't getting enough criticism, but at the same time, I'm with House in the fact that he is just doing what KD did to just a greater extreme um controlling his entire brand um i think he his pr team is masterfully um shaped shaped really the picture we have of lebron james in the public sphere so i think in that sense lebron has kind of made himself into someone who set himself up for not just being maybe the greatest basketball player of all time,

but he has big dreams after playing. And I think that's really what it's about, post-playing career and setting himself up for that too. LeBron's a big thinker. And I think a lot of what's happening goes beyond basketball. I think it's a fair point. KD definitely that last year left it a little bit uncertain. I think that the difference is, and maybe these Cleveland guys have learned point. KD definitely, that last year, left it a little bit uncertain. I think that the difference is, and maybe these Cleveland guys have learned from the KD thing,

and maybe they all tie together, where Kyrie looks at that KD thing and says, I don't want to end up like Russell Westbrook that year after KD left. I don't want to end up on this team with a bunch of bad contracts, and we're 45 wins, I don't know if I trust my owner. It's kind of a quest for care. I don't like that, though. How about take the challenge on the way that Russell Westbrook did? Russell Westbrook just won the MVP of the effing league.

Come on, House. How about step up to the plate? How about step up to the challenge? You're a team, Kyrie. Go nuts, brother. Neither of us voted for Westbrook. I don't know why am i team kairi on this i feel like all of a sudden i'm in team kairi and i'm anti i'm team anti lebron and

put in pro kairi i just feel like if they really did try to trade kairi before the draft which it seems like they did i don't blame k Kyrie for being like, fuck you guys. Hey, how about this? Here's my list of four teams. Trade me to one of these teams. Get me out of here. I don't blame him. I think it's legit.

KOC, you're the tiebreaker. Should LeBron James get more blame? No, for me versus House right now, because House is Team LeBron. Media strategist adam mentelson has obviously gotten the house oh i'm with house for sure i'm with house yeah i'm team i'm team lebron but at the same time i understand what irving's doing i understand wanting to control his brain and that's why i i'm team lebron because i get it he wants to control

his brand and irving is capable of being much more off the court. Can we talk about how bad the list of Kyrie's teams were? First of all, Miami, he hated playing with Deion Waiters. He hated it. Here's one of my four teams. I want to be reunited with Deion Waiters. Minnesota,

who he has no chance to actually go to because they already have their team set. The Knicks, who have been the chance to actually go to because they already have their team set. The Knicks, who have been the biggest clusterfuck in the whole league for the last 20 years of any big budget team. And then what was the fourth one? San Antonio, who has absolutely no way to trade for them. Here's the Marcus Aldridge for Kyrie. Any interest?

What a terrible list. Come on, Kyrie. Make a better list. Put Phoenix on the list, for God's sakes. You and Devin Booker would be phenomenal. I don't know. I think Kyrie needs a media strategist. Maybe he needs us.

Maybe he can bring us in. New York and Miami are totally defensible. The other two are not. San Antonio was odd. I think a lot of people saw that and they're like, wait a minute. Kyrie Irving wants a spotlight, yet he wants to play against Kawhi Leonard, who's maybe better than he is. Yeah, not maybe. Yeah, he is better.

I think that's a big difference, though. I mean, Kawhi Leonard is super quiet. I mean, what is his brand? I mean, Irving would be the guy on that team in terms of, I think, the off-court stuff, everything else besides basketball, and he would still be really right next to Kawhi as the most important scorer on that team. So I think that won't happen because of, obviously, for the reasons you listed, Bill. But at the same time, I get it.

Kyrie still wants to win. I don't think this is just about him wanting to get away and play anywhere just to have the spotlight and get points, get buckets. But I do think for him, those four teams were a little weird none of them really work uh except for the knicks i understand the knicks because that's home well if it had been the porzingis and kairi then you just figure out the rest later that would be unbelievable tate i don't like the fact that i lost the team krie versus Team LeBron election, so I'm bringing in Tate. Tate, you get a vote, too.

Kyrie's the fall guy. LeBron has set him up. We're Team Kyrie. LeBron can't dictate everything, all right? It's not his league. It's the NBA. It's everyone's league. Give Kyrie a chance.

Yeah, Kyrie got set up by LeBron. I like it. I should have thought of that earlier. This is a setup. This is like the Godfather 2. That's what's going on here. Try to set them up. All right.

We're done. KOC, you wrote a piece on Saturday and you have another piece on Monday. Your Shack House Golf Podcast is up. And you have another House of Carbs coming with the best pizza chef in the world, Chris Bianco, and the best copy editor in the world, copy chief in the world, Craig Gaines. So that's happening. Thanks again to Proper Cloth. Ordering a custom-fit shirt has never been easier.

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Yes, thank you, Adam. Go to adammendelsohn.com slash house for 10% off your media strategy from Adam Mendelson. Thanks to SimpliSafe, getting a good night's sleep easier said than done, especially when you think you hear a noise downstairs. Install SimpliSafe's home security system. Arm your home with powerful sensors that actually tell you if a door opens or if a window breaks. Please don't spend another night second-guessing your home's safety. Go to simplisafebs.com.

Get a special 10 discount when you order today that is simply safe with two eyes and again the talk the throne show is on our twitter feed at ringer thank you guys that was fun i think we pulled it off the three good times yeah i don't like i don't like that you guys teamed up but that's fine that's fine i'll get my revenge at some point i'm like lebron I'm just biding my time until I set both of you up. I'm just relieved that I could finally forgive you guys for all the bad things you said about John Wall and the Wizards. Oh, we forgot to

congratulate House. I'm glad we're all friends again. You signed John Wall to the Supermax. I was so worried. He wasn't taking the Supermax. Why do you think he changed his mind? You dirty sons of bitches. We're not talking about it, but thank you. Alright, congratulations. Bye, Kevin. Bye,, but thank you. All right. Congratulations. Bye Kevin.

Bye Joe. See you. See you boys. On the wayside On the first side of the road