The Bill Simmons Podcast - Larry Wilmore on the Lakers, Stand-up Comedy, and Political Discourse (Ep. 191)

Episode Date: March 22, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons brings on comedian Larry Wilmore, the cocreator of 'Insecure,' to discuss the 2017 Lakers drama (5:00), Kobe's prime (14:00), LaVar Ball's brashness (23:00), competitive balance in the NBA (33:00), Dave Chappelle's new stand-up (45:00), Richard Pryor's honesty (54:00), the multiverse political scenario (1:02:00), the success of 'Black-ish' (1:10:00), and the biggest fear in Trump's America (1:15:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the BS Podcast brought to you by SeatGeek. That's our presenting sponsor since 1983. Find the best tickets for sporting events, music, wrestling, opera, March Madness, you name it. What better way to grab bargain tickets for NHL and NBA teams that are already out of the running like Larry Wilmore's Lakers. Yes. Great seats available on SeatGeek for the Lakers right now. I have SeatGeek on my phone. By far the easiest way to shop for the best tickets thanks to their revolutionary grading system. Try it out. Download the SeatGeek app today or go right to SeatGeek on my phone. By far the easiest way to shop for the best tickets thanks to their revolutionary

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Blue Chips. Nice. You like Blue Chips? Isn't Shaq in that? Shaq's in it. Young Shaq. Is Penny in that too? Penny's in it. Yeah, I remember Blue Chips. Yeah. I said on Chips? Isn't Shaq in that? Shaq's in it. Young Shaq. Is Penny in that too? Penny's in it. Yeah, I remember Blue Chips. Yeah. I said on the podcast, it's like Penny Hardaway's career. It starts out super promising.

I know. Ultimately dissatisfying, but then underrated at the same time. I think so. Although I had an argument with somebody who was trying to tell me that he was just making Penny to be greater than he really was. And I was like, no, Penny was good. He was first team all NBA. Yeah.

Led a team in the finals. But didn't they make him put him in that top 50 at that time of all time? That was a mistake. That was a huge mistake. That was a mistake. I don't forget things like that. Yeah. They might have to bump him and put Dominique Wilkins in there.

Crime if Dominique was not in there. Dominique was not in there. I can't even. God, I didn't remember that. Greatest in-game dunker of all time. Oh, human highlight film. Come on. All right.

Let's just start. Let's do it. Play the music. Larry Wilmore is here, fresh off really an emotional Lakers-Clippers game last night. Oh my God. The worm has turned and the Lakers-Clippers are everywhere. Although, it's not like the Clippers are lighting LA on fire either. It's just kind of a basketball sadness.

Yeah. What was it like there? It's enn on we you know if you look at the definition of on we you'll see a picture of a halftime score at a laker game where all the energy has been sapped out of you already there's absolutely no hope there's uh you don't stand once except to go to the bathroom now yeah you know to cheer the team or whatever the lakers are down by 30 at halftime, Bill. What is that? But isn't that ultimately a good thing?

I mean, all they're about is getting the top, a second pick in the lottery, and you don't care about that stuff? No. I mean, at this point, they're not going to change their fate that much, but I don't like the habit of losing. I think any kind of habit you ingrain, anything you do a lot makes you good at that. And I don't like the Lakers getting good at losing. It's been four years of it now.

Exactly. They have a worse, I think it's worse or almost the same record as Philly the last three years. Thank you, Bill. I'm glad that you know these little tidbits of Laker trivia when it comes to their losing. But it's worth to have the second pick two years in a row. How many years have the Clippers had great picks in the draft? How many years, Bill? Right.

Have they ever even been to the Western Conference Finals? Finals. The Western Conference Finals. Never. The difference is the clippers had one of the greatest players of all time running the team who didn't know what he was doing who elgin baylor you yeah elgin baylor you have one of the greatest players of all time running your team oh wait he might not know what he's doing either forget forget that are you talking about magic

magic magic hasn't even started yet well he started recently he's slamming him already he's going to bat i'm not slamming him i just don't know if he's going to be good. Why would you not know that? He's been going to baseball games the last four years. Yeah, and what happened to the Dodgers? He's going to handle the salary cap? Wait, don't even try to slam Magic. You know Magic and Bird.

No, I actually, I think... Magic and Bird are still, to me, the brightest basketball minds ever. Those two themselves. Look, Magic wasn't a great coach, but neither was Jerry West. But then Jerry West moved into the general manager's office. Boom. I think Magic is going to be, the way they're using Magic is the right way. He's going to be front-facing, kind of the good karma guy, free agent meetings,

but he's not going to do the daily nitty-gritty stuff. He doesn't have to. You've got to wrap a link with it. But also, keep in mind, Magic and Genie are like, they're simpatico. They're like brother and sister. They're having sex? No, simpatico. Oh're simpatico. They're like brother and sister. They're having sex? No, simpatico. Oh, simpatico.

I'm sorry. No, let's not open that door. Jesus. But no, they're like brother and sister. And I think their relationship really means a lot to that chemistry that the Lakers need. Just a front office that is really together and supporting the team to go forward. I'm shocked that Jeannie Buss never found like the husband who just wanted to latch

on, but also kind of like secretly run the Lakers. Wow. She went down the road with Phil Jackson and it was just not a great road. He never wanted to get married. Yeah. And she, she spent like, I don't know't know 15 years with them that's a long time she could have been with you know this like some rich guy who's like a jared kushner for basketball and he sent a lot of signals like trying to take her to montana all the time i mean that's a signal

look i really don't want to have a relationship yeah yeah and i'm gonna move to new york i'm taking this job three thousand how can I make this clear? So, I mean, that's what I guess the Laker fans should be happy that she never found somebody who decided, let me help you out with the Lakers. I don't know if Jeannie Buss' relationship was... She's the most powerful person in the team. Yeah, but what is her... I don't know if her relationships have anything to do with how the Lakers are playing them. The family has had everything to do with it lately.

Yeah. The whole, she's got the brothers. Did you read the Jimmy Buss stuff? No. I've never met the Buss family. So there was this article about Jimmy Buss that he's like a big late night seedy casino slot machine guy. Oh, like his dad.

Was his dad? His dad was a poker player. His dad was a poker player. His dad was a poker player. But he spent a lot of time in casinos yeah as we shall say ne'er do well right right so i think the uh that brother was in charge of stuff yeah and i don't know if he had a good grip of the steering wheel shall we say well not great you're just bringing me down though no i think it's in better shape now. I think so, too. Magic is good karma.

Absolutely. Comes in, good energy. He's going to practice with the players. Palenka knows the league. He knows the agents. I like that team right now. Magic and Palenka, I think, are a good match. The stories I heard the last couple years about them behind the scenes were pretty alarming.

Some of them have come out. Like the LaMarcus Aldridge free agent courting process was apparently a disaster. Like he wanted to go there. And his agents were, he was like, I want to be a Laker. Yeah. I just want to be in LA. I want to. And then they had the meeting.

Right. And it was like Cupcheck, Jimmy Buss. They didn't really talk about anything. And then he would go to these other meetings. And, you know, Santonio's like here's how we'd use you here are the shots you'd get was kobe still on the team when they had that meeting yeah that didn't help well see that was a murky time too when kobe was on the downslide and and people were kind of just you know it's like you're waiting for that family member to die

was almost what it felt like it's like well they keep getting up for breakfast so you know they're not dead yet i don't know what we're supposed to do put the pillow over his head yeah it felt like it's like well they keep getting up for breakfast so you know they're not dead yet i don't know what we're supposed to do put the pillow over his head yeah it's like trust me next next uh vacation when you come they probably won't be here anymore that's what it felt like when kobe was there there it was a good tanking strategy though because it sold out tickets for that last year especially that wasn't a tanking strategy that was a well that keeping kobe happy strategy it turned out to be a tanking strategy. Yeah, but it didn't help. He was like the least efficient player in the league. He was taking 25 shots a game.

Yeah, but at least. Krabs chaining Kobe. Kobe's missing 28 footers. It was terrible. It was terrible. But whatever. Hey, he still has five rings. So that's important.

So where do you stand on Kobe now that the dust has settled? In terms of what? Overall? Yeah. Are you glad he passed through your life? Yes. Completely. Absolutely. Did he stay on a couple years too long yeah absolutely would you have wanted to be his teammate of course are you kidding you would have okay absolutely so you just sort of run up and down stood in the corner and waited every once in a while you get to take a shot what kobe are

you talking about any of the kobe's um are you saying this as a Celtic or as a true NBA person here? I'm saying this as a Celtic fan. Okay, let's look at the early Kobe's. Early Kobe. Kobe was the assassin then. He was not what we call the ball hog. If you look at his how many assists Kobe would get even You're talking about Shaq era Kobe. Yes.

Kobe had a lot more assists than people realize. And also people forget how great a defensive player Kobe was. All defensive team almost every single year. Very good. I mean, it pays to butter up the press. Those teams are great. Stop it.

Those teams are great defensive teams. You know, Kobe doesn't get a lot of credit for that. But Kobe worked harder than anyone on those teams. Anyone. There was no one that worked harder than Kobe. And that's what doomed him and Shaq, ultimately. Ultimately. It wasn't an ego thing as much. Shaq wanted to rap and be a genie in movies you know out of shape played himself into shape yes exactly and kobe was this guy all he wanted to do was play basketball get in shape for basketball

no think about basketball kobe wanted to do was be the second coming of michael jordan he wanted to be better than jordan so that mission statement was good and bad you know a lot of the bad was all the isolation play that he did you know especially lot of the bad was all the isolation play that he did you know especially when his skills were gone did not serve him well but the good was the the the laser focus to just beat everybody to be the killer when so like 1999 right what would you have put as the over-under for titles because Because I would have said like seven. It seemed like they were going to dominate the decade. That year when they got by Portland,

they get over the hump. That's when Dale Harris was the coach, right. Well, then, but Phil shows up, 99-2000. Well, Phil showed up, they won a championship that year. Right. So as that season's going on, before they get the Portland hiccup, they barely get by Portland, but then they blow out the Sixers in the finals.

Yeah, but you use terms like barely get by. You know, a win is a win. You know, seven-game series, you could say barely get by, but the winner is considered the winner. That was the definition of barely get by. You're down 15 in the fourth quarter. No, that was the definition of imposing your will. That's the definition of it.

It's not barely getting by. Portland was looking around going, what the fuck just happened? What just happened? They stopped making shots. Now, you could argue beating Sacramento on that Ori shot was barely getting by. But we imposed our will against Portland. Portland was damaged goods after that. They were done.

You did. You broke them. They were damaged after that. But they did have a 15-point lead in the fourth quarter. Yes, until we imposed our will and took over. That is one of my top three favorite games when the refs clearly were just completely in the fourth quarter. Yes, until we imposed our will and took over. That is one of my top three favorite games when the refs clearly were just completely in the bag

for the Lakers. It's unbelievable. There's some calls in that game that are if the internet happened now, Twitter, it'd be great. Portland forgot who they were as a team. They just forgot. They started taking just some stupid shots. They went ice cold. They did. And the Lakers methodically came back. It wasn't all in a rush.

It wasn't like that. Brian Shaw had a couple big threes, I remember. Yeah, Brian Shaw. Kobe made a couple big plays. Nice out of you. But a lot of Kobe's shots were like 15, 17 footers. They weren't like crazy. It was a great game.

And some awesome, awesome homer officiating. And then that lob to Shaq was just the final goodbye my favorite kobe hairdo too that year yeah i'm trying i like when he grew it out a little in the back no he had it up because he's kind of a small head so the hair kind of he has that peanut head yeah the hair really helped him that year if i and it was then in the finals shack fouls out, game four, Indiana, up 2-1. Yep. Kobe takes over. Yeah. In the OT, makes some plays, wins the game.

That's when I was like, wow, this guy really might be the next Jordan. Completely. But we were so desperate to find the next Jordan. I think now everyone realizes it's not happening. I think the league was too desperate. Yeah. Grant Hill was in there. Jerry Stackhouse. Jerry Stackhouse might be the next Michael Jordan.

He was never going to be the next Jordan. Yeah. First, with a name like Stackhouse, you can't ever be the next Jordan. I hope he's not listening because he's, by all accounts, one of the scariest guys who's ever passed through the league. Really? Jerry Stackhouse? Throw fists.

Yeah. Like even now? Oh, yeah. I would have messed with Jerry Stackhouse when he's like 80. Really? There's a famous story. Like is Latrell Sp, yeah. I would have messed with Jerry Stackhouse when he was like 80. Really? There's a famous story. Like is Latrell Spiro still out there choking people? Is that type of thing?

He'd handle Latrell in like five seconds. There was a story. I forget who the name was, but we did a story on this guy in Grantland. But he told Stackhouse to meet him after the game. And Stackhouse was like, okay. Wow. So he went in the locker room and he put on like a jogging suit. So that because it would be the best way to fight.

Met the guy outside. Did he have a gun in it like that? Google who this guy was. Google Jerry Stackhouse fight knockout. When he beat Christian Leitner up, right? Well, he did that too. This is another guy. And put one punch knockout.

Went back in the locker room. A little Kermit Washington action. Yeah. Went back in the locker room. A little Kermit Washington action there. Yeah. Went back in the locker room, put on his suit. Really? Left. That's pretty efficient, actually. Yeah, Jerry Stackhouse.

I kind of respect that. You don't want to mess with him. Yeah, but so the Kobe, I think once we realized he wasn't going to be next Jordan, but he became the first Kobe Bryant. Yeah, but he could be the first Kobe. Yeah. Exactly. I got no problem with that.

He's like seventh or eighth best player of all time. I ain't mad at that. Would you have him or Jerry West? Oh, come on. Jerry West is one of my all-time favorites. You can't ask me about Jerry West. It's a better argument than I think Laker fans realize this. I know.

No, Jerry West was dominant. He was always dominant. He and Elgin Baylor were so dominant during their era. They just didn't have that complete team at the time. Right, it was those two every year. It was a smaller league, all that kind of stuff. But people can't appreciate jerry west right now i mean he would continually drop that 35 40 points a game huge game he was an offensive force during that time and it was a different league

because if you like hurt your knee you were never the same yeah he had his hamstring like in 1968 yeah and he was never the same right you know so and still have four good years after that well that's the thing that's what made kobe's career special is it was basically you know after 07 before they got soft trade they read you know it would have been wow that guy had a great career but not he wouldn't have been like an all-timer but then he had this whole second prime from 08 to 12 well kobe's the he's the, he's the Terminator. Yeah. And he's Terminator 2, actually, because he can heal himself instantly. It seems like the way Terminator 2 would regenerate his body.

Yeah. That's Kobe. I mean, the stuff that he did, I still don't understand. Like, those mysterious trips to Germany and all that kind of stuff, you know, and he would. Remember in the 09 playoffs? And he played in so much pain. Remember at one point, Kobe, I don't think he had any fingers left to like grasp the pure paw yeah i think he broke about every pure fall it's hilarious i think he broke about every finger and his ankles were messed up in knee and i thought he

was even going to play after the achilles i thought he was going to play he actually made two free throws when he when he snapped his achilles you know he came back on right but i've never seen anybody play through injuries outside of Jack Youngblood, I think, playing on a broken leg, I think, in a championship game. I mean, Kobe played through some ridiculous injuries. That's a great pre-internet moment, Jack Youngblood on a broken leg. I know, I know. I mean, like, it was really broken.

Like, the guy in the Super Bowl, the guy in the Falcons had a broken tibia or something. They taped it up and he was able to play Jack Youngblood had like a I think it was like broken in half oh it's crazy and they just kind of

put the boards on each side of it or whatever the story is yeah you know one thing you'd make me think of I don't like this whole stopping a game in the NBA

when somebody's bleeding to me that's everybody thinks that magic is out there with AIDS or something you know right like cause that's when they stopped it. Because nobody understood

how you got AIDS in 92. I mean, in hockey, people are bleeding in each other's mouths. What about UFC? UFC, you're bleeding all over the place. The whole audience, it's like a Gallagher concert. They're just getting a splash of blood. Football, nobody goes in. Basketball, everybody goes crazy if there's a speck of blood and they stop the game. You see

all these hermetically sealed, you know, gloves and everything. Basketball, everybody goes crazy if there's a speck of blood and they stop the game. You see all these hermetically sealed gloves and everything. Yeah, the trainer comes out like he's cleaning your kitchen. Bill, but what's up with that? What are they thinking? I don't know. It's the only sport where that happens. I don't know. What are your Laker fan friends, what do you guys talk about?

What keeps you motivated? What do we talk about? We cry together. Okay. Because it's now, this is the worst stretch in the history's how this is the worst people are looking towards the future right now everybody's looking at the draft and i get that and that's fine i mean at this point it's over do you understand the stakes with the draft do you fully understand there's a lot of good players coming out but do you understand you might not get the pick uh based on you think the lakers are going to be fourth? Yeah, it's possible. It's like a 50% chance.

Oh, yeah. Brooklyn is firmly in last place, right? That goes to the Celtics. Phoenix is how many games behind the Lakers? The Lakers have a two-game lead over Phoenix. Two-game lead? Yeah, the 12 to go. This is like torture conversation.

A two-game lead over Phoenix. Two-game lead. Okay, who's after Phoenix? It's really you. You've got to worry about Phoenix. Yeah, butgame lead. Okay, who's after Phoenix? It's really you. You've got to worry about Phoenix. Yeah, but if we're third, that doesn't matter. We don't lose our pick in third. We lose it in fourth.

Yeah, but they have the lottery. This is what I'm telling you. No, but it doesn't matter. We're still having to protect the third pick. If you're third and one team jumped you, you'd slide down to fourth. Oh, that's true. And then you would have no pick. With the lottery.

Yeah. And if you're the second spot and two teams jump you slide to fourth you have no pick and wait it gets worse because i wrote about this last week in the ringer if you tell me how does it get worse bill it gets worse if if you tell me all the ways it gets worse if you lose the pick this year you also lose your 2019 first round pick to Orlando. Nice. But if you keep it, that pick turns into two second rounders. So it's either two first rounders or nothing on that lottery day.

You should break out every good karma, lucky charm thing. What is your prediction? If you get the second pick, it's a coin flip. It's 50-50. Second pick, we still will only... I'm saying if you're in the second ping pong spot. I understand. At the most, we'll get bumped down to third. Because there's not going to be two teams that are going to be in that lottery position.

Here's where you should feel good. Does the league really want the Lakers not to keep that pick? The league wants the Lakers to be good. The league wants the Lakers to be good. Like, they're happy that your Celtics are doing better. Right. Even though there is a ceiling, and we know that. There's a ceiling.

But there's two great players in this draft. Right. Lonzo and Fultz. You think there's only two? I think there's... I think this is one of those drafts like 2003 or maybe... What was another? Where there are better...

I'm with you. Better players than we know yet. Oh, yeah. Like there's a Dwayne Wade in there who hasn't been identified yet. There might be like two Dwayne Wades. I agree. Yeah. And I think there's like a four or five in there who's going to be ridiculous

that hasn't quite proven himself yet. Tate and I were just talking about it before you got here. Like the top ten, the tenth pick might be better than the third pick. I think Lonzo is magic. Not Magic Johnson, but I think he's like a magical player. I love that guy. He's got great court vision. I think he needs to score more, though.

I think he needs to take over games more i think he i think i bet he does the kentucky thing is going to be an awesome test for him because he's got an odd release though in his shot yeah yeah but it goes in it's it doesn't even touch the rim yeah i think the thing i love about him is everybody he's very few guys are like this magic was like. Magic was like this. Bird was like this. Where it's contagious how they play. And you see the teammates start to become unselfish.

And they're always, they're running the four and they're waiting to get the ball because they know he's going to give it to them. The feel that he has, I just think he's going to be awesome with better teammates. I think so too. Because what he has, it's hard to teach. It's almost like geometry, the way he plays basketball. Yeah. Because it's all about, there are certain angles that you are just going to beat people all the time. And you understand those angles in basketball.

Like Chris Paul understands that brilliantly. Right. Like he knows how to create distance immediately and create just the right angles to just beat you. And it has nothing to do with speed or quickness. It's all vision. It's having a sense of the whole court. It's really like this incredible game of chess beat you and it has nothing to do with speed or quickness it's all vision it's court it's having a sense of the whole court it's only it's really like this incredible game of chess when you understand it you know yeah and magic and bird had that better than anybody isaiah thomas had that very well too you know but uh yeah he's got that if you look at him play he

understands position and distance between players and he knows how to pass it when they're when a pass isn't open, but you just have that little bit of daylight once the pass starts. Especially with the big guys. And then the person's completely open once the ball gets there. That takes court vision to understand that timing and that kind of stuff. The entry passes, I think he's going to be incredible. The Kentucky will be a nice test for him because their guards are really,

really good. And their point guard, Fox, is an excellent defender. And the one rap on Lonzo is, well, athletically, when he gets to the next level, when he's going against Westbrook and all these guys every night, can he hold up athletically? I think he can. But Fox is a nice test. And if he sucks in that Kentucky game, everybody will be like, oh, I see you, Tony. And I think he's so much better than

that individual college game yeah especially he's 18 he's got his dad's doing interviews left and right i know what do you think of his dad i do yeah you're a big fan of him i do i like crazy parents i when richard williams like when i was gonna bring him up when the sisters got a little afraid of him it seemed like that wasn't a great place to be but that was you know that's also who's this crazy brother from compton talking all this in the whitest of white sports too yes right and there were jehovah's witnesses so there was a lot that was going on there that a lot of people didn't talk about is he gonna come knocking our door at the middle of the night we don't know what's going on here this richard williams but uh you know the girls were kind of flamboyant you know

as well tennis version of flamboyant you know wearing beads in her hair Venus at that time it was an amazing cultural moment yeah

that you have this sport that's the widest sport we have the maybe golf and a sport that women were supposed to behave all like Chris Everett yes

right even Martina was like oh she's a man get her out of here like everybody was so mean to martina it's horrible look at the way she talks oh she's got a girlfriend in the box and people are horrible to her yeah but then serena and venus show up and really the attitude for five years was this is terrible what are we gonna do because they were brash too yeah yeah they don't behave the right way but don't behave the right way i mean how many times have you heard that code for urban code for black yeah we don't look at the way they dress right exactly their hair they're gonna wear their hair that way yeah and earl woods with tiger was the same type of thing you know

saying how he's gonna change the game and all that was right that's right it's like earl woods was right richard williams is right I wasn't mad at Earl Woods at all. All these parents who are this brash usually know what they have. Yeah. The difference is this guy is talking about

like a billion dollars. He really doesn't give a fuck at all. He's like, no, motherfuckers, we're getting a billion dollars. Yeah, yeah. I'm creating my own brand. Nike,

you have to license my brand if you want to. It's really smart. It's very smart. It's very smart. It's legal, but I looked at it from a if you want to. It's really smart. It's very smart. It seems illegal, but I looked at it from a bunch of different angles. It's completely legal. It's legal, yeah. It's ballsy.

He's saying, no, no, no, I'm Rockefeller. I'm Carnegie. I'm the brand. I'm drinking your milkshake is what I'm doing, not the other way around. There will be blood reference for only a few minutes. No, I'm doing. Not the other way around. That was a There Will Be Blood reference for only a few minutes. No, I enjoyed it. The Baller Alert, not having Ball in the name,

not having Lonzo, but just Baller, which is kind of generic. And now his son's wearing it when he goes to the games. Is it BBB? Is that what it is? Is it 3Bs?

Something like that. 3Bs, yeah. That's a great, it's a great logo too. And it's built for this? Is that what it is? What is the, what is their, what is their phrase? I can't remember.

LeVar's up to a lot of stuff. The only thing that's a mistake is saying he could be Jordan. Oh, that's just crazy talk. He shouldn't have said this stuff about LeVar's kid. Yeah. Did you see that one? Like, Earl never said, Tiger could have beaten Nicholas. He never said some shit like that.

LeVar got mad at him. Got mad at who? LeVar Vaughn. LeVar gets mad at everybody. Stop it. He gets salty. He never said some shit like that. LeBron got mad at him. Got mad at who? LeBron gets mad at everybody. Stop it. He gets salty. He gets whiny. He's not salty. He's whiny.

Whiny. Interesting. Yes. I think he turns in, somebody was calling him LeSheriff. Turns in LeSheriff every once in a while.

So LeVar Ball said, LeBron is, by the way, LeBron is an amazing athlete. He's fantastic. But he is very is an amazing athlete. He's fantastic. But he is very sensitive. He is. He's also been in the spotlight

and getting picked apart for, what, 15 years now. Yeah. I think sometimes he's just like, ah, fuck it. Probably. Just goes in. But LeVar Ball was saying, like, LeBron's son is going to have an issue

because he was like, the difference between LeBron and me is, like, I wasn't a famous basketball player. And nobody... I didn't... My kids didn't have a target. What does that comparison mean? Because he was like, the difference between LeBron and me is like, I wasn't a famous basketball player. And nobody, I didn't, my kids didn't have a target. What does that comparison mean? Because he's crazy. This is what makes him great. I love LeBar Ball.

He's like, here's the difference between me and LeBron. Yeah, LeBron is a world class athlete. How about one of the similarities? Yeah, that's the difference. So LeBron got mad because he's like, don't tell me my son has less of a chance than yours did because I'm a famous parent. Yeah, don't pick on people's kids. Dad and my family. That's stupid.

Come on. LeBron's kid is apparently great. I saw some of the YouTube clips. Who cares? He's 12. He's a 12-year-old point guard. That's awesome. LeBron James Jr.

Good luck. Yeah. It's tough with the junior. Absolutely. It certainly has gone the wrong way a lot of times for you know within the right ways with ken griffey jr yeah but so you're so you're pro you're pro lavar ball for the most part because he might be in your life if the lakers for the most part for the most part i think the there is some damage that you can do to to a kid that hasn't proven themselves in that stage if you do too much. Yeah. You know, and you don't want to, because a lot of what an athlete does, and even entertainers,

it's not just how they're performing, but a lot of it is their relationship with the crowd or the audience and the fans. Like Derek Jeter always had a great relationship with the fans regardless of how he played. Yeah. You know, he had a great career. But even if Jeter was hitting 230, nobody cared because they still loved Jeter. But if he had a different relationship,

like the way A-Rod had, A-Rod could be batting almost 400 and have a bad game and people would be on him. That was the difference because he had just a different relationship. It is funny. A-Rod just was missing that one thing that made the fans want to connect with him. But now he's fantastic.

And he's very good on TV. I love this A-Rod. I agree. He's really good. I love media A-Rod. He's fantastic. He's really good in that role. He's no Pete Rose, but you know.

He took some. Yeah, he's no Pete. Pete, we just take day by day hoping he stays on television. I can't get enough of Pete Rose. That's the train wreck that it's okay to want to happen. Yeah. You know, because most train wrecks, you know, you're an asshole if you want that that train to crash you know right but this is a train you want to crash especially when it gets late at night and he's a little sleepy

yeah and he's a little hungry oh absolutely it's like 11 45 at night a little hangry he's thirsty he's hungry his blood sugar's crashing he's angry right he gets a little dizzy let's take a quick break hey if you've been settling for store-bought underwear five packs i have something that will change your life for the better my old friend me undies when was the last time you splurged on some great underwear come on it's the first thing you put on every day the last thing you take off why settle for anything less than the best me undies are made out of sustainably sourced micro modal. Modal.

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You know, this guy gave up, I think it was like 25 million bucks to try to play for the Red Sox that year. And then the league vetoed the trade and ended up on the Yankees because the players' union was like, you can't go backwards with a contract that sets a bad precedent. They blocked it. One of the most magnanimous things an athlete has ever tried to do, where they were literally like, I will give up 8% of my guaranteed salary because I want to win.

A-Rod never gets credit for that because we just don't like A-Rod. How much do you think that would have changed his trajectory in terms of acceptance? It would have changed the course of baseball history. Because the Red Sox would have traded Manny Ramirez in the deal. And I think, I can't remember who the other guy was at this point. Which would have been a great trade at that time. A-Rod for Manny?

Manny was awesome, though. Yeah, but A-Rod? He had more years left than Manny. Oh, with Nomar. So we would have traded Nomar and Manny. It was Nomar and Manny. Nom, with Nomar. So we would have traded Nomar and Manny. It was Nomar and Manny. Nomar. Nomar.

Get A-Rod. Then the Orlando Cabrera part of the trade. He was great in the playoffs. Yeah. But yeah, and then the Yankees don't get A-Rod. It's this whole sliding doors thing. Yankees never needed A-Rod, though. They never needed him.

No. Well, that was when they were just adding. That's when they were just being winning assholes. Yeah. It's like when Dynasty were just adding. That's when they were just being winning assholes. Yeah. It's like when Dynasty would just add people to the cast. I know. We're going to add this actress. Yeah, they don't rebuild, they reload.

Yeah, I think teams in general are starting to realize that's a bad. Are you a fan of what happened with the Warriors, with KD and all that? That kind of stacking by players? I'm torn on it because i totally got it from his perspective i think he had and we talked about it he was on my pod last month right he had basically a window to go somewhere right why did he want to leave them i think i think we're seeing why he wanted to leave i don't i don't think he wanted to play with Westbrook anymore. I don't think he wanted to live in Oklahoma City anymore.

Do you think it was about Westbrook? I think it was those two things. Westbrook is more of an outfit than he is. I think he felt like there was a different level of basketball out there. I think he wanted to live somewhere else. I think he was tired of being in Oklahoma City. I don't think he trusted to live somewhere else. I think he was tired of being in Oklahoma City. I don't think he trusted the franchise that much. Really?

And so his choices were basically go to Golden State, go to Boston, go to... Who else was in the running? Were the Knicks ever in the running? No. Washington should have been. Bradley Beal wasn't playing like he was. Yeah, Washington should have been. I don't even think he gave them an interview.

Because he's from D.C., right? Yeah. Oh, San Antonio was the other one. So it was those three. And, you know, Boston, I think you go to the East, you really don't have to battle LeBron, but you still have to go through LeBron every year.

That would have been nice, though. Yeah, and I think he just looked at it. I think that would have been really good for basketball. As much as, you know, I hate your Celtics, I think going to the Celtics would have changed that balance in the East in a way that would have been exciting. It's a more, if you're doing it just for what's the best for the league, him going to Boston was probably the best move. But him going to Golden State was the most exciting, talked about kind of polarizing move. It doesn't make Golden State more exciting.

They're not going to win more games this year than they won last year. No, but he's the best player on the team, which is kind of funny. They won 73. Golden State was exciting because they seemed unlikely. You know, that style of basketball, especially with Steph Curry, this little finesse type player who was, I mean, the hero of every little kid, you know, in America. I mean, that was such a great image for that team. This

unlikely player dominating. With KD there, it changes that chemistry to me. Nothing against KD. I love KD. I think KD is awesome. He is one of my favorite players just for his style. I would have liked to have seen him on a different team where the chemistry was a little different, I think.

I agree with you. I like more balance in the league, team where the chemistry was a little different, I think. I agree with you. I do think that... I like more balance in the league, I guess. Yeah, but you know, the 80s was like this. There was three or four teams. There were at least five teams in the 80s. Boston, Lakers, Detroit, and Philly. Philly, Houston.

Houston for two years. Yeah. And then Detroit came a little later. You guys made the finals like nine out of ten years we dominated that's why you like we dominated those great teams though you pat my theory i wrote about this in the basketball book my theory was pat raleigh knew the rockets was were coming and just was putting cocaine in their locker rooms just just they're going in bathrooms like what's that is that? Oh it's a gift from Uncle Pat. Putting it in there

or forgetting where he left it. But yeah the Lakers definitely you know you need luck with this stuff too. Yeah you do.

A lot of it is time. My guess is the KD thing the Warriors were going to hit a different level of the Warriors this year anyway

because I think they had such a bullseye on their back the last two years. And it's inevitable with teams and chemistry and all that. Yeah, you get tired. Steph Curry's so famous now and he's been like incredibly famous for a year and a half.

And he's a bullseye, definitely. Yeah. And I think that wears you down. Everyone's like, oh, Steph's not having as much fun there. It's because his fucking life isn't that much fun. I know, it's tough. That guy can't go anywhere.

He's trapped in a hotel suite or a locker room. It's another reason why LeBron is so great, because with all that scrutiny and everything, his numbers never change. Right. He stays consistently. He's a machine. He stays consistently great.

If Kobe was Terminator 2, I don't know what LeBron is. Oh, LeBron? Oh, God. Yeah, you have to come up with that. He's like RoboCop. Yeah. RoboCop. That's probably good.

I mean, he's going gonna average Nine assists this year Yeah No forward has ever done that He may be Predator Predator Yeah Wait No forward has ever

Averaged nine assists No ever Yeah He's My brain is thinking right now It was frustrating for me Last week as a basketball fan Cause I thought

LeBron secretly wanted To win the MVP this year. There's no secret. LeBron wants to win that every year. How is that a secret? But the reason he was playing 38 minutes, people are like, why is he? I think because this was his last chance, really, to win the fifth MVP. It puts him on another level, historically. But Saturday night, when they arrested the...

They were like Kyrie's knees tweaked they gotta not play him and then Love was hurt that was the game where LeBron should have been like

I'm fucking playing yeah and put up the 43-17-15 and everybody would have been like oh LeBron should he be the MVP he could have single-handedly

right changed the narrative and then sit in the next game against the Lakers you're gonna win that anyway by 20 points. Exactly. Sorry.

No, it's true. But I thought he could have put himself on the map in that game for MVP. Now it's going to be James Harden. You think so? It's unstoppable now, yeah. Man. Because you had Westbrook got his butt kicked by Golden State.

Same day Harden has this dramatic end-of-the-game win. Well, Harden has evolved his game in the game win I think that Harden has evolved his game in a good way totally you know and his beard I'm happy yeah I'm happy to see that D'Antoni is is getting a a good a good chance to to show the type of coach that he is because I think he is a good coach yeah he he was it's funny like he when you're a visionary it's hard to to get credit for that yeah and also like he made two decisions that one was for money he took the next job just for a money job but you can't blame somebody for that especially after what happened with the you know well that was before the lakers right no that yeah the lakers was the second one right but took takes

the next job right they offer him a crazy amount of money. And he's basically like, okay, now let's try to find the right team for me. And they couldn't. Then he gets offered the Lakers job. Right. And it's like, yeah, you're going to coach Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard. I know. This would be a really fun team to coach. And it was the opposite.

It was terrible for him. Yeah, but that was after the debacle with Phil Jackson, too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So now he's on this team that just seems like the right team for him. Yeah, it's a perfect fit. Yeah, I think so. But I think coaching, it's funny.

Like, just some coaches, there's just certain types of style, and that's it. Popovich, I feel like, could coach anybody. I think so, yeah. Phil is still trying to— Because he imposes his own style. Yeah, and figures out what he has. Right. And Belichick's like that, where it's like, what do we have?

All right, let's play this way. Belichick, oh, God. Sorry. Are you anti has and belichick's like that where it's like what do we have all right let's play this way belichick oh god sorry you're the anti-belichick uh how much time do you have but we have a lot it's a podcast no i'm just anti-cheater that's all oh come on i got nothing it's belichick i just don't like cheaters what evidence do we have that he cheated okay how about the super bowl against the r, I think, in New Orleans? See, this is fake news. Where they were filming the practices. No, they never got... The walkthroughs.

That was proven to be fake news. I was at that game, too, by the way. That was fake news. That was not fake news. It was fake news. No. That was a fake story. It was discredited.

The paper did a retraction. No. See, this is the problem. This is how our country got into the shape it's in It's the truth, man Because a fake story takes hold It goes You know Belichick's a cheater

And now Larry Wilmer believes that they filmed the thing You know Belichick's a cheater I think he searches for edges But he searches for edges Yes, the way you search for edges on a pair of dice Red Auerbach used to break the air conditioning in the Lakers' rock and roll Oh, Red Auerbach was a famous cheater. It was like 120 degrees when the Lakers would play the Celtics.

Completely. Yeah. That's what Belichick does. There was nothing better than being red. He didn't film the practices, though. Did you follow the story about the guy stealing the jersey? Oh, that's crazy. Did you see the video?

I love that, where he put it under his jacket or something. Yeah, he waltzes in with Belichick and going to the locker room like he's in the entourage. Yeah. And then just kind of floats around, grabs the thing and leaves. I love how the casual, when people do something wrong, that casual, that fake casual. But they're also glancing around a little bit. They're a little nervous. Oh, there's a camera. Because there's that window of getting caught there.

Yeah. Which would be awesome if that person actually gets caught during that window. I mean, we're living in this era right now where security is probably the number one thing on everyone's mind. This guy waltzes into the locker room. And you know that that was thought of before, right? That the person knew they were going to do that. He had the wrong pass. There's no guard like, wait, that's the wrong pass.

You can't go in. It wasn't a theft of passion where it's like, I'm taking that jersey. Fuck this shit. I mean, he thought that that through he did it three years ago he took von miller's helmet it sounds like crazy how do you fit a fucking helmet in your in your under your coat no this is a tumor sorry hey guys excuse me i i have like a club arm i know yeah three straight years that was one of my favorite stories. I love that Jay Glazer did this, like, all the president's men style video breakdown with the 40 Fox cameras. Isolating with the FBI.

Right. Incredible. Just to get Tom Brady's jersey back, because he's the greatest quarterback of all time. He won his jersey. At a certain point, you have to admire his balls, I guess. LA football, Rams Chargers, do you care? No. Will anyone care?

No. Rams anyone care? No. Rams, look, I was a Rams fan growing up. They left me. I didn't leave them. Okay? Now you come back, you know, we'll see. I love this. I've heard this logic and it's the best.

Yeah, we'll see. It's like your wife shows up 20 years later. We'll see what happens. I'm back. All right, let's see how it works out. Yeah. We'll see. And the Chargers, nobody cares about the charges i think we had the la charges in the 50s or something like that people don't even remember that i think i think there were charges in carson

something like that you know they're playing they're sharing the field with the la galaxy the charges they're like a it's so sad you know well how did they become homeless so fast i don't know how did that happen they're living in one of the most affluent beautiful cities in america and that a team that a city that seems like it should have football they should you know and now they're going to be in carson whatever playing in front of 30 000 for two years more people go there to watch tennis and soccer and eventually they're going to be the clippers of the Rams' Lakers. Are the Clippers going to move to Inglewood next? So I had Balmer on my pod last week. I heard that, yeah.

And he, I mean, that guy's a tenant. He doesn't want to be a tenant. He's a multi-billionaire. He's, you know, like on the Oscars night, they have a home game on Sunday night. It's a lot of stuff like that where they just get the shittiest schedule right whatever they get the third pick between the lakers and the kings the lakers get all the plum dates

like the sunday night dates are usually a great date not against the oscars but usually the lakers are sunday nights but bomber's kind of used to that type of thing i mean that's the company that gave us the zoom you know so i. I should have asked him about that. Giant write-off. Yes. Thanks, Steve Ballmer. The world couldn't wait for that. We appreciate it.

He was so excited that I had to take that. Why are you so mad at Staples Center? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he gets involved with Kroenke, and they build an arena right next to the football stadium. Yeah, but then he's in the Shadow of the Rams? No. No, they have their own stadium now.

Yeah. What's going to happen with the Forum? Is that going to be knocked down? They just poured all this money into it to make it all musical. It was like a church or something for a while, right? Yeah. A lot of memories in that place, man. Yes, exactly.

Dr. Buss. A lot of the 80s Lakers. Yep. Let's take a quick break. Quick break to talk about Boox.com. Have you ever sent flowers online before? Let me tell you something. Not a satisfying experience.

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shows. Yes. How about that? I watched them both. I haven't seen them them yet i saw him working some of it out last year i think for one of them it's interesting i think it's important to watch both of them in a row versus like i'll watch one now and watch one two days from now it's a double feature yeah it is and the la one is different from the Texas one. The LA one is more traditional. He's more of like, it's like an 1130 late night performance.

I mean, it's not the materialism, but he's just more. Is it kind of intimate or is it a big crowd? No, it's more professional. Okay. And the Texas one is more loose. He's slinging it. Right. And it's just different.

And a lot of people like the LA one more. I like the texas one more the looser one yeah it's just it just had a different vibe to it the la one's built around like the four times he met oj simpson oh right and it just goes it veers in all these different directions it's really well done and it's well constructed yeah when i texas one it was just out there and crazy yeah in stand-up to me that's different between tuesday night and saturday night yeah yeah it's like comics love tuesday night and we could care less about saturday night but saturday night is the best night but we don't care because the audience laughs in the places they're supposed to yeah you know you have a great show all that professional audience yeah you know and you do three it's date night is why you don't care for

it because everybody's polite t Tuesday night, anything can happen. That's your real comedy audience. And that's when you sling stories. That's when you try out material. That's when fights might break out, all kinds of stuff. So Tuesday night comedy for a comic is much more satisfying than Saturday night. So that Texas one felt like a Tuesday night. That's Tuesday night.

That's why you like it more because it has that feel. I like both of them. The Texas one, I just, I was like, wow, I don't know where this is going. I felt like I was.

Chappelle is one of the bravest people on stage because he'll go up without a net. You know, some of it's maybe irresponsible to the people working there because he'll do nine hours. Yeah. Just talking and people like,

we got to go home. I got a family. You know, he's just smoking cigarettes. Like when Bruce Springsteen's coming out for his ninth encore. Like, hey, Bruce, we got to go home, Dave. I got a family. And he's just smoking cigarettes. Like when Bruce Springsteen's coming out for his ninth encore. Like, hey, Bruce, we're good. Right. But at least Bruce, it's still only three and a half hours.

It's not nine hours of Bruce. Nine hours. I know. It's like, I know you're the boss, but can we please have permission to go home? That's like us driving from LA to Las Vegas right now. Nine hours. So when you're gone for that long, because it seemed like he had real fear about actually releasing these.

Really? I think both of them might have been done months and months and months ago. And he was so hesitant to come back in the spotlight. It was its own kind of fascinating. I think $60 million erases that fear kind of quickly. Yeah. Just kind of quickly yeah just kind of has a way of doing that but do you i mean you you've gone in binges where you're not doing

comedy at all right and then you're performing certainly right yeah so what was like the longer stretch where you didn't perform oh wow yeah i went for there was one stretch before i did a showtime special a couple years ago. It was for the 2012 election. Larry Wilmore's Race, Religion, and Sex in Utah. That's when it was going. And I hadn't done stand-up maybe in 10 years, I think. That was a long time. So I had to go up and just do like two minutes here and there

just to feel what that was like again. And slowly, it took me about six months to start feeling good about it. And I started just writing more stand-up comedy jokes you know and that kind of stuff and commenting more stuff and it only took it didn't take that long to feel good about it again i would imagine it's like golf where you just have to keep doing it and if you stop doing it for a while yeah it can come back but you have to go to the course and really hit and you go to the practice range and gotta work in a short game all your audience responses the putting might go right exactly how fast does it come back with the ability to ad lib in the moment that takes a while that takes a good couple of months of just being

comfortable on stage again if you've been away for a while but it doesn't take too long and all that is is just you know what it is it's like in sports terms like if you've been out for a while you get on the court you haven't lost any of your ability but your timing is off so like your pass for some reason goes at their leg or it goes at the wrong time or you dribble off your leg you don't know why that stuff is happening because you're just not relaxed in the moment because sports is all about being good enough to just be relaxed you you know, in Zen and all that. And stand-up comedy is the ultimate of that. You have to be relaxed enough where it's this, I call it active listening.

Yeah. So you're kind of doing your act, but you're not conscious of your act at that moment. You're more in the moment of listening to the audience and what's going on. Because you know the act so well. You know it so well. The act is playing itself, and you're having a different conversation while that's playing. But if haven't done it in a while you can't have that kind of conversation

you're you're too much in your head about the act so you can't relax and just interact and i think that's something chapelle is still great at oh and he's one of the all-timers he's one of the best absolutely the pace that he has and the patience yeah and he just pause. Right. Nothing will happen for six. The audience is like, wait a second. Is he forgetting his line? But he's not. He's inventing. And to invent, like, it's one thing to invent out of something the audience says.

Like, I loved doing that when I was doing stand up. Like, they throw something at you and then you create something new out of that. Yeah. But Chappelle, he invents stuff out of silence. Like, there's nothing happening. And then he's coming up with something and it will go

in a different direction. And that's where he's really brilliant. He's certainly one of the most confident comedians I've ever seen. He really just trusts the process.

He's so thoughtful, but he's sneaky thoughtful because you think he's just, you know, he may come off as crass or, you know, lowbrow, but he's that combination of highbrow, lowbrow. You know, Woody Allen was like that a lot.

Like Woody Allen would do dick jokes, but he'd talk about Kierkegaard in the same instance, you know. Where Chappelle, his jokes can sound lowbrow, but he's a philosopher at his heart. So he's a very intellectual comic while he's doing dick jokes sometimes. Right. Yes, because it's very well thought through, you know, and he has a philosophy behind it. That's what makes him interesting. He's going to have the outrage police come after him this week,

which is a whole other. Yeah, he doesn't care. Whatever. Outrage police about what? There's some gay stuff in there. There's some transgender stuff in there, and people are going to. That'll be a better narrative that unfolds over these next few days. He doesn't care about political correctness.

No, I don't think it's on his radar. No, I don't think so. It's my guess. He's just going to be like, I'm honest. This is how I feel about stuff. If I offend people, I don't care. Which is a really dangerous place to be in. I don't even know if he would say that, would he?

Maybe not. I don't even know if he'd even make that statement. He seems both completely self-aware about certain things and then in other things like I don't give a shit. Yeah, I think he's liberated from having some kind of attachment to showbiz leverage, you know? Yeah. Like Bill Burr, he was talking about that.

Yeah, when we did the yeah extra time thing yeah same thing just didn't give a shit yeah where the business sometimes can feel like it has a leverage over you if you don't act right or do something but when you remove that leverage you have a different amount of freedom yeah yeah who do you think's the best who who to you know tom brady the best quarterback of all time mecca jordan the best basketball do you really think that do you think brady's the best quarterback of all time. Michael Jordan, the best basketball player of all time. Do you really think that? Do you think Brady's the best of all time? It's unassailable.

It's unassailable. It's unassailable. Unassailable. 17 years of Brady versus any other quarterback. You're taking the 17 years. How many people are saying it's the system, though, too? What system? He is the system.

I thought you were just saying how great Belichick is. Belichick's, the combo, I think, is great. He's the greatest coach ever. I agree. I think they're the best combo ever oh yeah for the argument the best best qb ever each separately good combo i don't know if one is as successful without the other though yeah so who is that who's the goat for stand-up comedians in your mind living or dead that's a tough one i mean it depends on what you like i mean for for me and the people my generation richard pryor represented that you know but a lot of it was because of his honesty yeah and his i mean when you look fearlessness his fearlessness and his raw funny he was all of those things too you, you know, and his sensitivity, all that kind of stuff and his story.

I mean, he grew up in a brothel. Right. You know, it was a horrible childhood. And his grandmother was a badass. Yeah. She was not playing around, you know. He suffered abuse, all kinds of things, you know. But he was this childlike angel at heart, you know.

Somebody, I remember one of his exes told the story of the cosby's coming over for dinner once and she was describing cosby as he seemed like the nice guy on stage but was this asshole in person and and i seem like this fire brown on stage but couldn't have been nicer right i mean believe me prior was he could be a headache as well and was he could be a nightmare also but usually it was in the creative arena you know and that type of thing you know yeah it does seem like there's i agree with you i don't think there's there can be a goat but i do think people own different eras yeah he definitely owned his era he owned that era i think eddie owned his era yeah but in a different way eddie i wouldn't i don't know if he was the best stand-up in that era, but he certainly was the... In the 81-83 range?

I don't know if I'd call him the greatest stand-up. That was a golden era for stand-up in that time. I mean, there were a lot of people that we just don't talk about. People don't know how great Jay Leno was during that era. Seinfeld was unknown during that era, but was fantastic around him. It's really only both of those

guys were only really known because of letterman which was the irony of how the leno letterman thing played out letterman wasn't a great stand-up but he was a really good stand-up but uh murphy was a brilliant comedy star i think more than anything else you know and his stand-up specials were very funny but i don't know if I call them like, that's not in the same level as prior. It's just different. You know? I mean,

he did put out to the delirious special. I'll give you another, but I'll give you another example. During that same period, you could argue that Cosby special was better. His fatherhood, you know, and that,

I mean, the Cosby show was based on that. when he sat on the stool the whole time. Yeah. I think that was one of them. HBO would show that. Remember when HBO didn't have a lot of content they would just show that those are brilliant routines back then you know so there was a lot of competition during that era for uh for stand-up comedy i'm with you on cosby it's so weird to to to almost like we're not allowed to think about his career anymore because how horrible

all the allegations and next time stop raping so many people yeah yeah but it's like we're not allowed to think about his career anymore because of how horrible all the allegations. And next time stop raping so many people. Yeah. But it's like he really was like the defining comic and then had the defining sitcom. And now it's just like, it's gone. It's been erased. Yeah, I know. And I'm sure, I don't know.

When he dies, I mean, nobody's going to be talking about the Cosby show. It'll be like, that's the guy who allegedly raped 54 people or whatever the number is. What about Chris Rock? Definitely brilliant for his period. I don't know who else stands out during the Chris Rock period of just pure stand-up. I'm not sure, you know. I guess there's different kinds there's the guys that could or girls that could in the smaller rooms were great and revered by the things that was during the alternative era too yeah yeah i think it's really hard to go into

madison square garden and just crush it i don't know how many people could have done that with good material i mean there's also like the dane cook types that were more like he was very popular way yeah like people that were like by force of personality there were kind of movements too yeah yeah yeah but rock stands out as somebody who really had something to say at a time when nobody was saying it really you know so and it was really he was a smart political brash comic. You know, he was like a combination of, let's say, Pryor and Dick Gregory. You know, if you put those together, you get, you know, that Chris Rock of that era. Who was the one you were the most jealous of?

I'm not jealous of comics. Writers get jealous of each other. Yes. Oh, man, I wish I had thought of that angle. Well, sometimes I say I wish I had thought of those jokes. Yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. i mean yeah i mean that whole chris rock routine i mean there's a war between black people and niggas yeah it's fantastic it's one of my favorites ever yeah we did that on the office in fact when i'm seen uh when i was the um diversity uh specialist and uh was that a title

oh it was so much fun and steve carell was doing a he was doing the Chris Rock routine. And there were so many outtakes that he would just say, and the niggas and the niggas. And my face is just blank looking at him. And we would laugh. So you'd say cut. And we would just start laughing so hard. It was so much fun. So who's behind the scenes in The Office during that era?

Oh, man. I mean, that's like a murderer's row, right? Yeah, absolutely. How many years were you there i was there the first three seasons two and a half i guess because the first half season by the way we thought we were going to get canceled at any moment during that first half season um i mean mike sure who's done everything uh bj novak was on the writing staff and in the cast mindy kaling writing staff and staff uh That whole cast was fantastic.

So did you know behind the scenes, you knew, like, this is a special group, something good's going to happen? Oh, yeah, you knew it right away. Greg Daniels, who ran it, had such a keen eye for talent, you know, and really let people write and perform and that type of thing, you know. And he's got an interesting comic mind himself great so so that was fun when did you go to the daily show or when did you start doing stuff for the daily show was around 2006 i was in a transition myself because i i had started as a as a stand-up comic and performer and got

into television writing producing because i felt like hollywood would never find me i was yeah too specific in my type you know i wasn't wasn't ghetto, you know, and all that kind of stuff. That's interesting. Yeah. What does too specific, not too specific in your type even mean? Well, I mean, Robert Townsend talked about this in Hollywood Shuffle, where, you know, that term urban, you know, with the quotation mark, you had to be from the ghetto and that type of stuff, you know. And Hollywood was really kind of putting black comics into one category, that Def Jam category. Whereas when I was a kid, there were many types of different types of black comics.

You know, Bill Cosby was the storyteller. Dick Greger was a political comic. You had Red Fox, who was the party records type of comic. What was Jimmy Walker? Jimmy Walker, he was more of a traditional comedy club stand-up. With great taste in writers. I like the great comics for that era, wrote for Jimmy Walker. Yeah.

Well, he was a joke-teller type comic. You know, he really joke, joke, joke, joke, joke. Then you had somebody like Godfrey Cambridge, who was more of a hipster during that time. You know, completely different. You know, Flip Wilson, who was more of a vaudevill time you know completely different you know Flip Wilson who was more of a vaudevillian type one of my first favorite celebrities

oh Flip Wilson was fantastic the Flip Wilson show I think that was like the first show I loved a lot of great writers came out of there too so it was a really

crazy era for people behind the scenes yeah who you're like wow that person was just a writer for the show oh yeah

Steve Martin wrote on the Smothers Brothers. Jim Brooks, all those people. And Albert Brooks. Yeah, and Albert Brooks. Oh. Crazy. So then Daily Show happens.

Daily Show happened when I was in the transition of wanting to perform again. Yeah. You know, and trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And that was a great time because Colbert had just left to do his show. Ed Helms was going over to the office. And I was from the office going over to do the Daily Show. It was like a prisoner exchange program. Oliver had just started, like maybe two weeks before I did.

Asif Manvi had just started. Rob Riggle had just started. So Daily Show was making a lot of different moves at that point. It was very exciting, actually. Is it weird that you and, I mean, it is weird that you and Stuart both basically are sitting out this... Oh, it's crazy. This whole...

Well, John's been doing his appearances on Colbert. Once a month-ers, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because he's one of the exec producers, actually, on that show, too. He dips his foot in every once in a while. Exactly. But when did your show...

When did it go away? Last August. Yeah. And who knew that? Exactly. No, it kills me every day when I see all the things that are happening. It kills me. We've been allowed to discuss.

Worse than the Lakers. We've been allowed to discuss. Although now it's like, it's getting so crazy. Yeah. I don't even know what the, like if Stuart was on, I actually think he would have an amazing amount of, of, of sway.

He definitely has his own take on stuff. And he's a big media critic as well. But I honestly believe, you know, there's a theory about multiverses out there. I think we're in one of those multiverses right now. Like, I don't think this really happened it's just a multiverse yeah what is the famous thing what's this called it's that it has a name this thing where you're

you think something's happening but it's not happening you're actually in an alternate universe i can't remember there's like a yeah that's what the multiverse is you know where there are different versions of reality and And this is one of those versions. I don't think it is the version, though. I think it's one of the alternate versions. So like we're on a Blu-ray right now. Yeah. And somebody pressed the wrong button.

Yeah. It's like, have you ever heard of missing time? Like when you're walking somewhere and then you go, wait, how did I get here? Like you've missed like maybe 20 seconds or something like that. in that 20 seconds all kinds of shit could happen right and who knows there was like a glitch in the universe or something like that like that's where the multiverse can switch up and suddenly you're in a different reality well this is true by the way would your show be different the same like would you i think every show evolves it's hard to say you know i mean uh we we would definitely not be running out of things to do that's for sure yeah it's hard to predict what you're gonna do but um yeah but i miss it and the people there and all that

kind of stuff and still trying to figure out ways to to weigh in i was on bill marshall a few weeks ago i was gonna ask you about that yeah that was a lot of fun. They made some news. Yeah, kind of. Badly. Did the alt-right come after you at all? No, not at all. They actually went after Milo Yiannopoulos. That's good for you.

Yeah, but I don't give a shit. No, it's good. Go after that guy and stay away from me. I mean, that's why I was sitting there and he's like saying, you need guests that don't have such low IQs and aren't so stupid i'm like go fuck yourself i'm a grown-ass man you're just gonna say some shit like that to me when i'm sitting here what do you think this is exactly right i mean come on bill uh so i mean that

wasn't even a political point at that at that time right it's like motherfucker who are you talking to i'm sitting right here You think you could just say this to another human being and I'm not going to reply? It went beyond politics at that point. He thought he was like typing it on a message board

and not actually saying it to your face. Yeah, this isn't Breitbart, motherfucker. Yeah, we're not on a message board. So you created Black-ish.

No, I did not create Black-ish. No, Kenya Barris created Black-ish and I was there. You shepherded Black-ish. Yes, I was there helping to produce the pilot and the first few episodes.

I co-created Insecure, which is on HBO with Issa Rae. And now you're going to create some other stuff. I'm working on a spinoff of Black-ish, a college show with Yara Shahidi, the girl. We should say she's the oldest daughter. She's the oldest daughter, right? And she's very talented. That's the oldest daughter. Right. And, uh, she's, uh,

she's very talented and that's going to be a lot of fun. Kind of a college show. And, uh, working on something with Rob Briggle right now too. Oh, multicam over at ABC. So that's fun.

So a college show. Yeah. With a black freshman. Who's a girl. Um, it's going to get compared to a different world. Um, possibly, possibly, um it's going to get compared to a different world um possibly possibly but it's but it's not going to be a different one because that was 30 years ago correct right yeah i thought i think there should be more college shows you think so just in general yeah the two things that aren't

on tv that i never understand are that well you, most people went to college and can relate to some sort of variation of some college story. And then I always thought like grad school, law school, medical school, those whole worlds I'm always fascinated by too. And yet you turn on NBC and there's an entire night of Chicago shows. There's Chicago law. No, Chicago. There's a law. There's a medical yeah there's a fire pd and a police right and there's one night where all three of them are

on it's just chicago and on your cable guys just chicago chicago chicago for three hours i mean tommy fucking loves it because he's from chicago right my family's from evanston so there you go but there's four chicago shows yeah but we can't have one college show i'm glad you're doing this but you want more boston shows no boss boston's too polarizing chicago's middle of america oh chicago's not polarizing at all chicago's right between the west coast and the east coast it's a little more middle america i think that's why they do it well you'll always have cop shows cop shows will always be on television because there's always think about it man it's been since the mod squad in the 70s but what's the conflict in grad school oh i hope i get my theses done in time grad school i've got two years to get this

done what's gonna happen grad school all right i'm gonna answer that question um competition yeah well i mean what's the difference between grad school and college? It's the same thing. They're away somewhere being competitive and they're in this, they're friends. Yeah, but you haven't had your dreams crushed yet when you first start college. You know, you're still kind of innocent. That's a fair point. Yeah, you know, looking at the world a certain way.

You're so more specific in grad school, I think. Post-college, there could be like a student loan show. You don't know what the hell's going on. Yeah, there's just you're paying back your student loans. I like that. That's the whole show. We should do that. I like that a lot.

It's a 10% interest. This is how shows get created. Pay That Shit Back would be the name of it. Tonight on Pay That Shit Back. Or it's called Get In Line, Bitches. So you go to these meetings. Which meetings are you talking about? I don't know.

When you go pitch these shows. Okay. Now you're asking how does it work? No, because I know how it works, but I want to go through it. Okay. So you go in. Do you go with one hard idea or do you have... You mean in general?

Yeah. Do you have the one good idea and then the two in the back pocket that you throw out in case you don't like the way they respond? We don't like that. Wait, wait, wait. I got some others. Wait. Grad school.

Don't leave yet. So fascinated by grad school. Grad school. Bam. What's the process? It's different for every situation. Usually when you're pitching something, it's a very formal process. You set up a meeting.

You're going in with a certain idea. And usually they've kind of heard about it already yeah and you make a formal pitch um i've done informal pitching over the years and that type of thing which is more of a kind of an interesting thing where you just kind of informally it's like you're already in a relationship with the studio or network or that kind of thing um back when i was um at nbc before i did the office The Office Kevin Reilly had just taken over and I was running Whoopi Goldberg's show at the time in New York she had a show on NBC, it was kind of a political show

actually, it was a lot of fun and she was like running a hotel or something we did a lot of terrorist jokes, it was after 9-11 that kind of stuff, but it was fun it was actually a lot of fun and we went out to dinner and he was saying I had mentioned that I was working on an idea. And he said, but I wanted to really kind of form it and work it out before I went in and pitch. And he said, oh, what is this idea you've been thinking? I said, well, I'm not really ready to pitch. He said, oh, just tell me. You don't have to pitch it. Just give me a little bit. And I said, well, OK. And I just told him like the one line he goes sold and i go really wow that's great you know and ended up making a pilot just from that one meeting so that wasn't a formal pitch

they always say if you can describe the show in one pitch in one sentence it has a better chance i believe that completely in fact i work with writers and that kind of stuff too and i always try to get them to describe their show in a sentence or two and tell me what it's about and i think the more you can do that the the more clarity you have about that, the easier it is not only to write it, but to tell other people what it is. So what's insecure in one sentence? A woman that isn't quite sure who she is or where she's going, you know, and she's at that point in her life.

That's where we started from and wrote the show out of that. Bernie Mac's show was Children Are Terrorists, I Don't Negotiate With Terrorists. You know? It was like, it was really that simple. And that idea is in the DNA of every scene on the Bernie Mac show. Like, there are terrorists committing terrorist acts right now, but I am

not negotiating with them. My job is to end the terrorism. That's exactly right. And that's what that show is about. So anytime you can find that, then you know you have something at least compelling to write stories about, you know.

In Black-ish, some of it was, that's, my kids aren't black. You know, that's not the black that I know. It was in that arena, you know, and that was compelling, you know, because it's like their story is not my story. And you can write stories about that. It becomes universal. Every parent can relate to their child having a different story than they now have.

I was amazed that my kids found Black-ish on Hulu, started watching it and kept watching it compared to all the crap that they watch yeah and i was like so happy it's like oh this is actually a good show that you'll get to learn yeah learn things from and characters that you know versus like the disney channel shows where it's like my nanny is also an alien and you know all these stupid things that they watch you know kenya and the crew over there man they've what's special about that show to me there's the content of it with some of the social issues and stuff but it's an amazing cast yeah i mean tracy ellis ross to me was hiding in plain sight you know where a lot of the business did not see how brilliant she was you know and anthony had had everybody knew but he just kind of found the right show it was one of those and anthony is so talented he's able to do both drama and comedy he did this turn on The Shield where he played this drug dealer. Oh, my God.

I mean, I was scared just looking at him there. And Anthony, he's so talented. He's just very, very funny, too. And them as the co-leads are such a winning combination. And you just start adding people to that. And you get to have Lawrence Fishburne on your sitcom. You have Morpheus. Morpheus is on your sitcom for god's sakes did you know he was the number one choice for the

sam jackson role in pulp fiction no i didn't know there was this sheet that came out about uh it was tarantino's wish list for the parts right and it was fishburne for the same jackson part i was like wow it's a good movie what if yeah what's that movie like with fishburne in that 1994 fishburne in that role i still think i'd it's hard to think of anyone else than sam jackson so good kind of belongs in their chemistry he and travolta had an amazing amount of chemistry travolta that's his it's its own podcast oh have you ever had a mind no i would love to i would love to just go through his movies that'd be to someone like Travolta That would be fun I also He's an interesting guy My experience with Travolta

Dates basically my entire life Because he was Vinnie Barbarino Right And he was the boy in the plastic bubble In the TV movie I know that's right Yes Couldn't get out of the bubble

Yes that's right He sang And then he was in Saturday Night Fever And then all of a sudden He became the most famous person in America Then he tailed off But then he came back Yeah

Then he made a bunch of bad action movies that I love. Broken Arrow and Con Air. I have a theory about stars, though. I think if you've been a star, as opposed to just a good actor, but if you've been a star, I think there's something about that quality that can always be reignited at some point. I agree. Because there's just something about it that is just mysterious.

But it just takes the right thing. But I think a star never loses that. I think that was Tarantino's logic with Travolta. I remember him talking about that in the mid-'90s, just like, guy was one of the biggest stars of my life, and I just felt like it couldn't be gone. It can be gone if there's drugs. I think Richard Pryor is a good example.

Yeah, that's true. By 82, 83, Richard Pryor. That was sad. But he also had ms and that was taking its toll yeah yeah cocaine uh i know cocaine from 77 to 80 yeah this is no the sad part is we're gonna end it with uh do you want to talk can we talk about the country for two minutes anything anything that, as you watch this, we're at like day 60? What's your biggest fear right now? Well, my biggest fear is that we have someone leading the country that is, to me, making an assault on just the truth.

And a lot of it is the casual lying, that it creates this exhaustive type of fact checking that people become uninterested in. And, you know, to not have the confidence in our leader that we can even suspend our disbelief that they'd be telling the truth, you know, and just to have that wiped away and just to not be able to put your faith in somebody whether you agree with them or not you know is just a sad point to me it's just sad you know and that's not and i agree and that's not even number one for me yeah at the the just overall

security yeah and you read about oh things are really deteriorating fast with north korea it's like well that seems awful yeah you know and you and it's the foreign policy stuff that scares me the most it scares me the most too because i i said that when he was running i said he's an existential threat to the united states of america but i've amended that and i believe he's an existential threat to the safety and security of the free world. It's starting to... Just his comments about NATO. Look at the way he treated Merkel. Yeah.

Do we have a more important ally in Europe than Germany right now? Yeah. I don't think so. I mean, the carelessness and the thoughtlessness. I mean, when you look at somebody like a Lindsey Graham, who is very thoughtful, you know, and is very intelligent. And you could just see his disdain for Trumpism as he's talking. And he's trying to be a loyal member of his party and everything. And it's like, I wish we would get more people like that, too, on the same side.

It's not going to take the opposition. God bless the resistance and all that, but it's going to take people, honorable people on that side of the aisle to call a spade a spade and to call this out. Also, when you look like a complete mess from the outside, that makes you vulnerable. Because now if you're a country that's like, man, this could be the time for us to make a move.

And all the, when you see the people who try to defend him, like Sean Spicer, like he's playing a game of Twister all the time. It's so sad. And they just get reduced to nothing. After a while, he's just going to be kicked to the curb and he's going to be worthless in any arena because he will have lost all credibility.

And by that time, the administration won't even care. He'll be on chris christie's sports radio show yes and they don't even care about chris anymore he's just gone right i always think a good rule with with this stuff is it's the old reagan question of are you is your life better than it was four years ago which is how i won in 1980 but right like the the cousin of that is do you feel safer than you did three months ago i don't i don't care what side you're on there's no way anyone feels safer right now than they did i don't feel safe with the country in his hands look at least ronald reagan he had run a state

he was a he had an ideology that you could agree with or disagree with yeah but his his uh governing was built on that ideology that's what he ran on you know trump's ideology is being a narcissistic sociopath i mean that's all it is it's trumpism it i don't think it has anything to do with governing or america or anything that's my personal belief it's it was very strange to see how obsessed he was with the voter voter fraud angle during a time when he's putting together his his cabinet yeah what what his first hundred days are going to look like and he's still worried about people thinking that you know the election way it's like why do you care you won right put your cabinet together run the country it's like trying to reason with the hoarder

you know it's the're talking to him. It's the same mentality. They won't throw anything out. They don't understand. They have this illogical connection to trash, you know. If I gave you over or under 2019, he's still the president, would you go over or under? What does over and under mean in that context? I mean, he's out of office. office god that's a tough one man because the people who support him kind of do it blindly it seems like

you know but we'll see what happens with uh with the health care right now that may make the difference i mean people forget it was health care in the economy that caused that big swing in the 2010 election more than anything else. And the economy was still recovering at that point, you know. Even though the economy is doing well, if a lot of people are losing their health care and those people that supported him, that can make a big difference. But the only problem is I don't know who's on deck for the opposing party. Answer, nobody. They're like the Lakers.

I know. It comes back around to the Lakers. But the problem is there's nobody in the draft, though. That's the problem. I think Jordan Clarkson could be a starter. It's like, no, he's settled down. He cannot. We agree on that.

Yeah, yeah. He's a good role player. I ain't mad at Clarkson. Clarkson and Nance, I think, are good Lakers to come off the bench on a good Laker team. I thought the Russell pick and the Ingram pick, that's fine. Maybe you'd take Porzingis over Russell if you did it over again. Ingram, the draft wasn't that great. It's just weird that they don't have a guaranteed all-star yet.

No. Go through the roster, it's like, oh, that guy's 100%. I bet my life that guy's going to be an all-star team barring injury. He wouldn't pick anyone. Julius Random, Random Ingram is what I call him. You never know what's going to happen with them just random you know it's tough to break your leg in your first nba game i'm not he's not a bad player he's a bad omen he's just kind of reckless yeah it was almost a clippers thing that was happening to us yeah it's amazing he wasn't on the clippers when it happened no he

should have been but how about sean livingston that happened to him and i'm so happy for his career right now amazing yeah that's i mean it was like his knee it exploded i know that it was the worst knee injury that's ever happened is it pretty much and to come back from he almost had to have his leg amputated so that's got to be like when you like your arteries are basically in trouble that's a bad right right yeah he tore every knee ligament. What's the worst injury to end a career, do you think? I mean, probably the guys who get, like, paralyzed. But, you know, that's true.

I mean, outside of complete paralysis. Yeah, outside of that. I guess it's someone dying in a boxing ring, Larry, would be the worst injury. I think one of the most fucked up ones was the bo jackson one oh because it was so hard to understand how it happened you know and it was the weirdest type of dilemma you know where blood wasn't getting to a certain part of his hip and it was also like it was an injury that only could have happened to him because anyone else gets the hit and just falls over.

But he was superhuman. So his legs kind of still going because he's not a real. And it took away this unstoppable force for all of us, too. That's one of my saddest ones. That's one of the saddest ones. Doc Gooden's way up there for me, too. Well, Doc Gooden's injury? No, just that.

Doc Gooden, the cocaine. He had more of a fall. That's what I mean. I'm just talking about guys who should have been better than they were. Bo's way up there, but Doc is like, I just feel like Doc Gooden should have won 500 games. Would have been awesome. There's been a lot of basketball guys, too, obviously. Oh, yeah.

Now it seems like all the basketball guys have their shit together. I think they do a nice job of prepping them when they get in the league. I think the older guys take care of the younger guys i think they're smarter about having good people around them yeah they don't make it too much money right away so they don't lose their minds like the guys in the 90s and yeah just seems like and also really seems like an unusually aware smart group of guys like you compare them compare them to the other sports, and it's like, I think basketball has the smartest guys. That certainly wasn't the case always, but now I think, like... Well, they have the most leverage, I think.

That helps, too. Because of the CBA and because the basketball players more, I'm trying to think of the other sports right now, arguably more than any other sport, an individual can turn a game in a bigger way than any other sport, an individual can turn a game in a bigger way than any other sport game after game. Yes. You have a pitcher in baseball can do it,

but he's playing once every four or five games. And it's the most marketable, too. Absolutely, without a doubt. The NBA is such a naked sport. The guys are just there. They're little sleeveless jerseys and their shorts, and they're on TV, close-ups constantly. Should we bring the short shorts back?

We should not. We should not. Maybe Lon lonzo ball that'll be one of his gifts for the triple b if he if he started wearing short shorts would other people start doing it lavar ball's like we bring it short shorts back it's a billion dollar industry that would be awesome i would love to see that larry wilmore a pleasure as always great to see you my pleasure man um i look forward to checking in with you after the lottery can't wait yeah i That would be awesome. I would love to see that. Larry Wilmore, a pleasure as always. Thanks, Bill. Great to see you. My pleasure, man. I look forward to checking in with you after the lottery. Can't wait. Yeah, I love that you just assume that you get the top three pick as my favorite part of this podcast.

It doesn't make me happy. I'm not a person. I don't want to get those picks the way that we're getting it. Okay. All right. Larry Wilmore, thank you. It's all right. I like winning.

Thanks to SeatGeek. Thanks to MeUndies. Thanks to Lyft. Thanks to thank you. Sorry. I like winning. Thank you. Thanks to SeatGeek. Thanks to MeUndies. Thanks to Lyft. Thanks to Boox.com. Thanks to No Man's Land by David Baldacci. Thanks to Pearl Jam. And thanks to Larry Wilmore. Back on Friday with one more BS podcast.

I don't want to see them. When we saw that I was sick. I don't have On the wayside