The Bill Simmons Podcast - LeBron 4.0, Miami’s Herro Complex, Harden for Embiid (?) Plus Week 3 NFL Picks with Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Lakers win over the Nuggets in game 4 of the Western Conference Finals, officiating LeBron James, the Celtics struggling vs the Heat's zone defense, a defining moment for Tyler Herro, James Harden trade rumors and more (2:29). Finally Bill bounces his Million Dollar NFL Picks off of Ryen (1:26:00).  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lights today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. Coming up, we're Sillow. Thursday nights. We're going to be doing this for the next few weeks. Tonight, we're going to be talking about Nuggets Lakers. Got a little football tonight.

A little Florida battle. Whether the Celtics are dead or alive, a whole lot more. That's all coming up first. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. Taping this about 845 Pacific time Thursday night. Coming off the big game. Rosillo, I can't believe it. Miami beating Jacksonville like that. I just didn't see it coming.

Shocking. Ryan Fitzpatrick. Everybody counts this guy out just every't see it coming. Shocking. Ryan Fitzpatrick. Everybody counts this guy out just every time. No, he's incredible. He's like that buddy that no one likes. And then all of a sudden,

he's like, I've got courtside seats to the Celts. And you're like, you know what? Let's keep Murph around a little bit longer. Well, this is going to answer the age-old question, will basketball ever beat football in the ratings because we had just a putrid football game going head to head against

a pretty pivotal western conference basketball game and one of the football rating will outrank the basketball by like what three times as much yeah those those numbers always blow me away. They're always like a nice little reminder. Don't get too carried away. But look, it's not like we don't talk football all the time, but whatever. Yeah. Well, we're not going to talk about that game. We're going to talk about the Lakers who are now one win away

from the NBA finals. This is a weird game. They set the tone almost unprecedented. I can't remember seeing NBA finals. This is a weird game. They set the tone. Almost unprecedented. I can't remember seeing this where a team openly complained about how their superstar, in this case, LeBron,

was being treated by the referees. This whole thing goes out and it becomes a plot. And as soon as I saw it, I texted her like, oh, well, we know what we're in for tonight. And then the game happens. They edge out Denver and him and Davis shoot a combined 28 free throws. saw it, I texted you like, oh, well, we know what we're in for tonight. And then the game happens.

They edge out Denver and him and Davis shoot a combined 28 free throws. And I just feel bad for Denver because I really admire that team. And you go into a game like tonight and you're like, wow, they're really going to have to go all out to win this game because they're not going to get calls. And they didn't. Okay. But did you think, first of all, I don't think it's the only time we've ever heard. I think there's been plenty of playoff series where the coach tries to plant that seed publicly by complaining phil jackson used to do it all the time so i don't i don't think that's fair and the other part like vogel's quotes the funniest part is we were texting back and forth because i went on with cowherd and i was like looking it up and i'm going you know what um this article there was an article written about this where

Vogel's quotes are exactly the same thing where he goes, yep, it's not getting LeBron's not getting as many free throws and I'm just answering your question. So I'm not saying anything. He was already like, I don't find me. Don't find me because the numbers show that usage rate, the same drives, the same distance from the hoop, the same. And LeBron's just about two, he throws less per game than he was last year. And I didn't feel like he wasn't getting a ton of calls. And I'll be honest, I don't know if I'm teeing you up here. I don't feel like after this game, the officials decided this by any means.

It was rebounding because the rebounding was insanely going the other way in game three. Denver out-rebounded them, what, 44 to 25 in game three and barely held on there. Yeah, I mean, Jokic didn't play well. That's why Denver lost. what, 44 to 25 in game three and barely held on there. Yeah, I mean, Jokic didn't play well. That's why Denver lost. I thought they had a couple chances to climb in.

There was that huge call. Murray, who was great tonight, had that drive where he had LeBron on his hip, basically. LeBron fouled him. They didn't call it. And then it comes back down. And that was basically, you know, I think that would have cut it to two. And Murray went nuts right away.

And then they're showing the replay. He goes nuts on every drive. Well, Reg know, I think that would have cut it to two. And Murray went nuts right away. And then they're showing. He goes nuts. He goes nuts on everyone. Every well, Reggie, they're showing the replay and Reggie Miller's like great defense by LeBron. Watch. Oh, that was a foul. Yeah, that was just kind of stops his tracks. But, you know, this is this is the respect you get when you're one of the three best players ever.

When you have the veteran superstar team. And guess what? If you're Denver, you got to, you got to account for that. They just didn't play well enough. They're not getting enough from Jokic in this series. And I don't even feel, I don't even feel like LA is necessarily locking him down. I think he looks a little bit out of sorts. I definitely thought he looked out of sorts the other night too. What do you see him from him? Hey, I couldn't stand dwight in game three i even made a public statement about it he was terrific uh in the first half he was great early in this one because i felt like his energy was kind of fake energy in game three it's like well

it's cool you're running around and you're waving your arms and you're talking shit and the batman thing definitely annoyed me because i'm like look when you're at dwight's level and now it's jokic like you're just not allowed to do that anymore you You just can't, you can't do that. And even Vogel, I mean, that was part of the storyline in game four where they were like, Vogel said, Hey, why don't we tone it down a little bit? And it worked because he played great defense. And I think it just gave him another look and Jokic you're right. The hard part is when he picks up that fourth foul and he's out at 806 in the fourth quarter and the Lakers are in the bonus, he comes back in at 546. He took one shot, one real game shot from 546 to the close

of the game before a heave three. That's the game. Well, he also in this series, he's had at least four fouls in his last five playoff games and probably more than that. He's always kind of lingering around foul trouble. It's always kind of lingering around foul trouble. It's always kind of looming like an anvil over whatever Jokic playoff game you're watching. And I do think at least that might be part of the reason he was in his own head a little bit. He's certainly not the guy from last series.

The guy from last series, we're comparing to the all-time playoff greats. And the reality is they're not going to beat the Lakers unless he's on par with Davis and LeBron. And he just hasn't been. Have you dropped him behind Hero then for your guys to start a franchise with from number three to number four?

I just edged Hero above Bill Russell last night. I redid my pyramid. It's Jordan, then Hero. Those two. No, but it's a bummer because I do think this should be a good matchup for Jokic.

Dwight's been super physical. I think the refs have allowed people to be physical with Jokic. And I think it's taken him out of his game a little bit. And I actually always thought he kind of liked that when teams are trying to bang him around.

But this time, he missed that little bunny. Remember that late in the game when he had a big Morris, he took Morris down. He just missed that little four foot jump hook that he makes 99 times out of a hundred. He just wasn't good enough. Now you could, the counter argument could be Denver has the Lakers right where they want them down. They're down three, one.

This is kind of deep down what they wanted. Now, now they can, they can do what they do. You're not buying that? Utah was not a great basketball team. They played great basketball for three games. The Clippers, I thought, were arrogant all year, which was hard to understand. And I'll give you this. The Lakers are just as arrogant as the Clippers are. And you could see in those Houston games where it'd be like, all right, you want to beat these guys now?

Okay, fine. And they would turn around in the fourth quarter. Remember that one fourth quarter where they almost pissed away like a 20-point lead and it seemed unfathomable that you're like, wait, does Houston actually have a chance to steal this one? And I don't know if it's the bubble. I don't know if it's not having that villain this season

for the first time in a long time. I mean, it feels like the first time in a decade you don't have that one team that everybody's gunning for where it's felt like both LA teams and clearly ones at home watching, if they're even watching. But I think the Lakers are, I could totally see them mailing it in in game five.

I mean, they basically did in game three, right? And then they tried to catch up in the second half and tried to steal it late. But yeah, you're right. The other problem for them is their role players. You know, I mean... Who, we're talking Denver? Well, I'm talking Lakers.

Oh. You look at the guys who were out there in crunch time in this game. They called well Pope, like, taking shots with two minutes left. And Rondo, Pope, like taking shots with two minutes left and Rondo who, you know, sometimes won't really play that much. And then other times is finishing entire fourth quarters. And it's just been kind of Russian roulette with their role guys. And it just doesn't matter because the tandem they have is a historically great tandem. But I do wonder if you

can get through four rounds with this where just night to night having no idea what you're getting from the 3-12 guys. Well, we know if they don't win it, now up 3-1, I think they get through Denver. I know we're going to talk a lot of Miami, so I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. But if Miami gets out of the East, which we expect,

they're a different opponent than a 49-50 win projected team. They're just different. Whatever it is right now, I don't think they're any kind of pushover whatsoever. They're a real challenge. So if Lakers were, say, to lose in the finals, then that's the thing that we point to. But it kind of reminds me when we do the NFL stuff

where it's like week eight, week nine, and we go, man, all the contenders are flawed. You're like, you know what? That's kind of the point. That's kind of the point. And yes, their flaws, their lack of depth, it's the lack. But when you watch Anthony Davis get off to that kind of start,

LeBron probably underwhelming for the most part part, but still those nine points in the fourth quarter and he hit most of his free throws, which isn't something I expect to happen all the time. Um, you know, it's just, they couldn't do anything with Anthony Davis. Like he should own Millsap and he owned them early. They got them out of there. They switched their whole defensive rotation around. And yeah, I'm'm with you like caruso's kind of fun but you don't count on it pope missed a huge three again you know he had that three that could have tied it at 103 a piece in game three and that was a huge spot you know it's different when you're down 20 and taking those and then i can't tell you like i feel like the the morris twins want nothing to do with the basketball in a big spot.

And Markeith threw that horrible entry pass that deflected, like screwed up AD. Then he gets the offensive foul by just grabbing somebody. And they're up, I think, 109, 102. That's a massive possession. It's under two minutes. You score a bucket there, the game's over. He gets a charge or an offensive, not a charge,

but offensive foul on that screen. And then he fouls immediately by sticking his leg out and it's Murray with free throws. And you're going, this game was over with a bucket. And then it ends up another two minutes of going back and forth with possession. So I don't blame Frank for trying some different things, but he got him, him fouling out was probably good.

Yeah, at some point, wasn't it Morris, Pope and Rondo were the three, four, five that were out there? Oh yeah, no, that was the real unit. Yeah, because he's not wasn't it Morris, Pope, and Rondo were the 3-4-5 that were out there? Oh, yeah. No, that was the real unit. Yeah, because he's not putting Kuzma out there. I'd be hard-pressed to find a worse 3-4-5 in crunch time than that. And Rondo's pretty good tonight. And I think Rondo's figured out how to pick his spots and do Rondo stuff and just kind of embraces inner Rondo.

As a longtime Rondo fan, just kind of embraces in a Rondo, you know, as a, as a longtime Rondo fan, I've been enjoying it. It's, it's been the one redeeming thing for me with this, with this whole Laker situation is I like seeing Rondo do Rondo things in big games and you know, that rebound he got near the end where he just comes flying in. Like he just has a knack for doing that stuff. It's fun. Yeah. I thought the best play, you know, there's a bunch of stuff that you can pick from here, And he just has a knack for doing that stuff. It's fun.

Yeah, I thought the best play... There's a bunch of stuff you can pick from here, but when LeBron made a really good defensive play and then ran the length of the court and Rondo waited, a lesser point guard doesn't even register that LeBron's coming full steam. And Millsap didn't even bother contesting it. And it was a layup because LeBron ran the full length of the court.

And he was behind all other nine players. And Rondo kept him in the play. And that was pretty cool. One thing I've noticed with LeBron in these playoffs, I think he's become so hard to officiate game to game. And I can kind of get why he would come out of a game where he only had a couple of free throws and be like, what the fuck?

I'm forcing contact every time. It reminds me of the point Shaq got to like 20, I don't know, 20 years ago, near the end when he wasn't like MVP Shaq, but maybe two years later, 0-2, where the refs kind of didn't know what to do. And remember that Sacramento series when it was Divac and C-Web and Scott Pollard and

certain games, those guys were just allowed to mall Shaq. And then they had the famous game six when Shaq shot 130 free throws. And it just kind of from game to game seemed to change. And the thing with LeBron, he's so freaking strong now. He doesn't totally have the same quickness to beat somebody off the dribble that he did when he was at Miami, right? He's at a different stage of his career, but he can still get a half step on them. And what he does over and over again is kind of barrels into the guy as he

has the half step. And then the ref over and over again has to decide like, what is that? What do I do? Because there's contact, the guy's moving, LeBron's initiating all the contact. What's the call? Like they even had the review today. And when it, when I saw it live, I was like, Oh LeBron, that was a charge. And then they show the replay from five angles.

It's like, Oh, actually Grant's moving. But at the same time, he should be allowed to defend when he moves. Right. You're talking about that grant block in front of the Denver bench, right? Yeah. Yeah. Cause that was a huge spot at that time. Um, I don't know what you're supposed to do with those calls anymore because I don't like charges, but then again, it's like, wait, I can't stand here and move my feet to try to defend you. And then if you dribble into me, like it's, we've done this before, but it's, it's a mess. It's collectively. I don't know. I don't know if we've had this conversation before because I think LeBron is so strong and he's so smart and he's just figured out, like, I'm just going to do this

and they're not going to know how to call it. And I'm going to get the coin toss most of the time because I'm LeBron James. I just don't know what you're supposed to do if you're the defender. I mean, you could try maybe guarding him with a smaller player, you know, like the Toronto strategy, like the Lowry Van Vliet, just go way smaller and have the guy get underneath them. And maybe he, yeah, something like that, but I don't really know how you stop it. And when we get to this next round, Miami is going to have Crowder. They're going to have a good dollar.

Jimmy Butler, they're going to have all these people, but it's going to be the same thing. It's going to be this conundrum game after game of, is this a foul? Or is this not when he's driving the basket? Okay. I think it's a great compliment, Shaq. Absolutely.

Because you know, the thing with Shaq is where you could just call it a foul every time, but then you'll also be like, well, okay. I mean, if Shaq played today, I don't know how that officiated because everybody would just fall down the

entire time and the way that they call it, you'd be like, so what are you going to do? Just give them, give them the charge the charge well this guy's gonna have to retire uh i have i have a thought it's a question we know that lebron is peak theatrics when he's exaggerating kind of like a contact like the murray elbow in game three he doesn't do it as much now because it just takes up a lot of time and energy to just flail all over the place but i actually don't think he's a flopper i don't need a driver now do you agree with you do you think because guys like donchich are selling it the whole dribble first of all the head thing

that drives you know um harden who doesn't flop as much as he's selling it all the time and then there's just a bunch of other guys just straight up flop. Do you think that that has to do with some of the problems where refs are almost like, well, he's still upright, so I can't give him every call. I think the Shaq thing is a really good comparison for this reason. It's impossible to figure out what the contact was when he's so strong. It's almost like this moving Oak tree, oak tree. And when somebody bounces into him and he just keeps going completely undaunted, and then the other guy is almost making it seem like it was more of a foul, and then the ref feels like something happened. But can't call a charge because the guy's moving.

I think to me it's more a testament to just what an incredible physical specimen he is. That he can go into people and really ricochet off them. And just continue to go until they blow a whistle or he gets a layup or whatever. This is something that started with him, I really feel like, those last two Cleveland years. Where it just seemed like he was stronger. Remember that 2018 Golden State Finals? In that amazing game he had when he was stronger. You know, remember that 2018 Golden State Finals in that amazing game he had when he was just destroying them?

He was overpowering physically in a way that I had never seen before with him. And I think he's been able to do that over and over again. And, you know, Grant, I think he's done a pretty good job at least trying to be active,

staying in front of him, stuff like that. But also at the same time, doesn't really have a chance if LeBron wants to get to the rim. Like he's just getting, he's getting near the rim and he's initiating contact

and then it's up to the refs. Yeah, I remember making that mistake a few times where I'd look at different series and be like, oh, they have Damari Carroll and they have all these bodies. And none of it matters.

It doesn't matter because he's just, you know, the way Kawhi uses his shoulders and the way we talk about him spacing his dribble away from you and the fact that you combine his shoulders with his hands, like LeBron's actually still bigger. And, you know, the way Kawhi uses his shoulders and the way we talk about him spacing his dribble away from you and the fact that you combine his shoulders with his hands, like LeBron's actually still bigger. And, you know, it's not that much different, yet his moves are still probably more

dynamic at a much older age because when it's right, like I was like, oh, is he slowing down? I was looking at some of the stuff. And then I went and looked at it. I go, you know, a lot of these fourth quarters have kind of been decided. So if you're just going straight fourth quarter numbers for LeBron, they're not going to look great. The free throw percentage always goes down. Um, is it, is it because he's tiring? Is it because he's older? And then he had a baseline spin dunk on Torrey Craig in game three. That was just like, well, that looked pretty good. And you know, it's not just one play. And there were a couple of moments like when he was short on a few jumpers, like he didn't have the touch tonight at all.

He had that one play where he kind of drove at Jokic and Jokic just kind of sagged and he had a 17-footer clean wide open. It wasn't even close. So the stat line being near a triple-double might be a little misleading because really Davis was carrying them tonight. But if you're going to score nine points in the fourth quarter of a close playoff

game to go up 3-1 instead of 2-2, I mean, those are still points. And you're chalking up fast. You know, in my book, I wrote about the four different Jordans when I wrote the big chapter about him, how he hit these four different versions of himself. And I think with LeBron, he had that kind of first version of himself,

which I would say really lasted all, basically the entire Cleveland experience, right? He just, he matured physically, but I still, I would say his whole Cleveland, even though he ended up winning two MVPs, I still feel like that was like 1.0 LeBron. And even that first Miami season, then 2012 and 13 and 14 in Miami was probably 2.0. And then those first couple Cleveland seasons when he came back, I would say is 3.0. And now we're kind of moving into the 4.0 version of where he's basically Carl Malone who can dribble. And he's just this specimen who's also the smartest guy in the league, who can dissect everything, who always makes the right decision. But there's an overpowering piece to it that has kind of made up for the loss

of athleticism where he can't just fly by dudes like he used to eight years ago, but he's added the shack piece. Yeah. The Carl Malone thing's good, but I think you would agree to add beyond the dribbling that he's set like Carl Malone can never set up your offense or anything like that. No, no.

And I know you know that. I'm talking in the drafts. Yeah. I'm talking going to the basket. Cause I always felt like Carl Malone was same thing, especially that Utah version. He, he was so strong by the mid nineties that if he was just headed to the rim, what were we going to do? He was either get in there.

You're fouling him. That was it. Those were the, those were the two outcomes. And then LeB getting there or you're fouling him. That was it. Those were the two outcomes. And then LeBron obviously has so many other things that he brings to. If he goes to a LeBron 5.0, does that end the debate that he's better than MJ? Yeah, I don't know what 5.0 would be.

I guess 5.0 would just be him as just a three-point shooter. He turns into Duncan Robinson randomly. Everyone's like, wow. LeBron lost 40 pounds. And now he's a 50% three-point shooter. LeBron 5.0. Here it is.

If you were ever going to say like when he gets drafted, you go, okay, this is the chosen one. I remember watching that Sacramento game and you know, we had his like the first guy that ever wrote anything about him when I was on in Boston, we ordered the Jersey.

Like I just couldn't wait to watch him. And then to say, okay, when you're, when it's going to be 2020 and he's going to be this close to another ring and it's just different because back then we didn't understand players are going to move around and do all this different stuff like he's going to be on the lakers and they'll have won a ring in miami and cleveland and he's going to be still arguably the best player in the league and yeah they're going to

be moments where it's a little slower. Like it just seems impossible. And it seems impossible to also think of the league without him. And that we're probably a couple of years away from, you know, TV shows going, this guy needs to retire, which I don't like when shows do to anybody. Like if you want to keep playing sports as long as you possibly can keep doing it, but he's going to be held to a weird standard because it's going to be weird to see a version of him. That's actually hurting a team, which still seems like, again, impossible to say out loud, because it's going to be weird to see a version of him that's actually hurting a team which still seems like again impossible to say out loud but it's going to happen you mean like true breeze right now this breeze stuff is a little early can we wait until

michael thomas is back can he complete a pass of more than eight yards those numbers weren't great down the field i got it but i mean our man Greeny was saying like bench him for Jameis Winston. I was listening to Greeny. Greeny's open. He had Jameis replacing Breeze and I think he said it's time to get Jalen Hurts some snaps behind center for Carson Wentz. I was like, geez. I don't think his coffee had kicked in yet.

Would be my guess for the Greeny thing. Yeah, the LeBron thing. You know, it's all shaping up for him. And he's certainly been, you know, even this week with the Breonna Taylor thing and the verdict coming out and LeBron comes out in a big

way. And he's not only the face of the league, he's the most important voice. He's still the best player in the bubble, you know. And it is, it's amazing. You know, he was drafted in 2003. I had just gotten LA in 2003. I don't even think I had, I had a dog. I had my first dog at that point. It's so long ago. You think about like, it's just an incredible amount of time. Like 2003,

people who were born there are now seniors in high school, virtual learning. But the fact that he's still able to do it at this level. So, yeah. So, when he does stuff like complaints about how he's officiated to, you know, and they call that in, like part of me is like, man. You were bothered by this a little. Well, it's just like you're one of the greatest players I've ever seen. Like, I almost feel like you don't have to do this, you know? Like, you don't need this. You don't need to whine after every call. Like, we're always I almost feel like you don't have to do this, you know, like you don't need this. You don't need to whine after every call.

Like you're, we're always going to remember watching you. We're we, you have our eternal respect. You don't need to do like this petty, dumb shit. I don't know, but it bothers me because I like them. I like watching them. Yeah. The complaining thing. I don't know me and you complaining, but like those whole rewatchables things we were doing

after the last dance, like I just couldn't, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed just watching everybody play basketball. And now the new thing, and I don't know if it's brand new, and LeBron did it tonight, he drove left, and so right to left on your TV screen, he's left side of the hoop, gets the call, and is pissed at the baseline official. Yeah, he got mad at the other ref. Yeah. I saw that. He got mad at the other ref. Yeah. I saw that.

He got mad at the ref who didn't call it. He's not the only one. He got the call anyway. But guys are mad. The other thing that's happening, Marcus Smart does this all the time. Marcus Smart will make the play and like get fouled on the entry

or fouled on the pass or something. And then the guy he passes it to gets the bucket. He's got the assist. And then he's mad. And you're like, you guys got the two or something. And then the guy he passes it to gets the bucket. He's got the assist. And then he's mad. And you're like, you guys got the two, man. Let's get back on D. Well, let's talk about who the Lakers are going to play in one second.

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So, you know, I said the other day in a podcast that it was all shaping up for LeBron. The Clippers got knocked out, all that stuff. And this is now in their hands. They have this two-man tandem that is just going to be better than anyone they play, whether that's enough to win the finals. They just have the biggest advantage anybody has left. But I was thinking about it. And I was thinking about that Paul George quote that we heard about

after you and I finished our podcast last night, where he was like, no, I don't feel like it was championship buster at all. It was the first season for us. And I was thinking like, man, what like a terrible thing to say after that. This was totally championship or bust. You guys traded a hundred draft picks to make this season happen. You were favored to win the title. What are you talking about?

Would it be even better too if he opted out next year? It's two seasons or bust. But I was thinking like, I have this own narrative in my head, like, man, they were so lucky to escape the Clippers.

But really the reality is the Clippers were Fredo. They were weak. They folded. I think though, I think this lay, I think Davis and LeBron would have beaten this Clippers team from what we know now about the Clippers and all the stuff that's been trickling out. And it's obviously a team that was not on the same page,

that resented the star treatment for George, not Kawhi. I think they all resented George, seemed specifically kind of like, what have you won? Why are you the superstar here? And it just seemed like that team had real problems. And if anything, I think it would have been better for the Lakers

to play them and beat the shit out of the Clippers. It would have been a nicer the Lakers to play them and beat the shit out of the Clippers. It would have been like a nicer, you know, thing for LeBron's mantle than beating this Denver team that everybody thinks they should beat anyway. Yeah, because if the Clippers, I mean, well, it's hard to go, hey, this team's a fraud if they had taken care of Denver in five. Okay. And then not blown leads in the other games. And so I always hesitate a little bit to be like,

oh, well, they would have smashed the Clippers. But maybe the Clippers would have taken them more seriously. Maybe the Clippers would have looked at LA and played them differently because they knew it was the Lakers, like a fight, where it's like if you're looking at the opponent and you're actually a little scared of them, you're just going to be tuned up a little bit more.

You're going to be thinking about all these different things, whereas they clearly didn't give any respect to the Nuggets after they were up 3-1. See, my argument is they had the fraud inside them that was waiting to be unleashed. It was in the cage with the key dangling from the outside, just

saying, turn key, open door, and the fraud was going to come out. And I think it definitely would have come out against the Lakers. It just happened to be Denver that did it. But did you see some really good Clippers-Lakers games during the regular season where it kept you guessing and at times, even when the Lakers

pulled out some of those games, you and I did pods where we're going, you know what? I still kind of like the feel of where the Clippers are at and when we get the finished product. So we got to be honest that we can't just sit here and go, oh, the Clippers lost three in a row. They suck. And the Lakers would have smashed them. I remember games. It wasn't just that they lost. It wasn't the three.

It was how they rolled over. Of course. But it was some of the stuff that got exposed as the stage got bigger to the fact that they really rely on Lou Williams. And he's honestly one of the worst playoff players of the last 25 years. He's just completely abominable.

That if Harrell got attacked a certain way, he became unplayable. That all of a sudden, you're relying on Zubats. I can't believe we're even talking about the Clippers. I shouldn't have brought it up. I guess my point is, I thought this bullet dodged. And the reality is, I think Denver is going to be a lot tougher to put away. Even though Denver's down 3-1, I think that team's got a lot of pride. I love Murray. I think Murray's been one of the big winners. I wanted to talk about big winners of the bubble later, but

Denver will not roll over in game five. Do you know, by the way, if Denver loses game five and if Miami knocks off Boston, this final starts on Wednesday. Now I know that. I am wake up and look at the schedule type of guy. Yeah. You're a big thinker and a planner. If there's no game seven, the finals will start on Wednesday, is what I was told.

Will you count this as the 17th championship for the Lakers tying your Boston Celtics? No, you know the answer to that because they count their five Minneapolis titles, which were not real Lakers titles. This is fucking bullshit. Does Oklahoma City get to say, we've won one NBA title? Oh, what was the one you won? We won the Seattle Supersonics title in 1979. That's our one title.

Everybody would be like, get the fuck out of here. You didn't win that. That doesn't count for you. So why do the Lakers get to count the Minneapolis titles? I've heard you bring this point up before. So I just want to prepare you. Nobody has an answer. I just want to prepare.

By the way, though, why do career assist leaders carry, though, and titles don't? Because I always think that's a little weird when it's a graphic and then all of a sudden it'd be like the New orleans pelicans and but it was the charlotte hornets and you were like wait what's going on like yeah i don't like that rice is an all-time pelican i'm confused i don't like that either when you when you switch cities and change your name you're a different franchise just that's why i think the browns was actually the coolest thing ever because they were like we're keeping it all and everyone's like honestly you think

anybody wanted to be the Browns? Right. We're taking our stuff back. But I like that Cleveland did that. So if Miami gets by Boston, which odds are they will, although we'll break it down in a second.

Not giving up though, are you? Well, no, I'm not giving up and I'll go, I'll go into the reasons why I'm not giving up.

But if Miami does advance, I don't think they will roll over and I think they're going to be a hard team for the Lakers to play. I would still pick the reasons why I'm not giving up. But if Miami does advance, I don't think they will roll over. And I think they're going to be a hard team for the Lakers to play. I would still pick the Lakers in the series. But I think, is there 2004 Pistons upset potential? Yeah, there is.

And would people be making a mistake thinking that the Lakers were just going to walk to the title? Yeah, because Miami's really good. I think what's impressed me about Miami in this series, they're not playing that well. They're really not. Like, look at their stats. They're shooting from three. They're 32.5%

for the series. You know, they're giving up 110.3 points a game. You go through their stats. Drogic has played really well the whole series. So has Adebayo. And then Hero had two really good games. Games three and four. Other than that, Butler's been

fine. Crowder and Robinson and Olenek are basically DOA now. Robinson can't make anything anymore. They're not even playing Olenek and Crowder crashed back to earth and became Crowder. I think what's interesting and what's a good sign for the Celtics

is that this is not the deep nine-man Miami team that you just don't know on any given night who's going to get you. This is now a six-man team. And Iguodala was way more important in game four than I ever expected from somebody who's had an ankle injury, who's had back spasms, and they really needed him in that game. And they needed a performance from Hero, who had had back spasms, and they really needed him in that game. And they needed a performance from Hero, who had not scored more than 22 points in a playoff game,

who averaged 13 points in regular season, put up 37, and they still barely won. So I'm looking at it going, I actually think Miami can play better than this. And I'm frustrated that it's 3-1 as a Celtics fan. This has been about the fourth quarters, and it's been about turnovers. And yes, some of it's 3-1 as a Celtics fan. This has been about the fourth quarters and it's been about turnovers. And yes, some of it's the zone,

but some of it's just stupid, stupid basketball. And it was a carryover from Toronto. And if you look at the turnover numbers in the fourth quarter for this series, Miami has nine total turnovers across four fourth quarters. Boston had seven turnovers in game four in the fourth quarter alone, and a bunch of them right out of the gate that set the tone for sloppy basketball.

They had five turnovers in the fourth quarter of game two. Boston's defense is allowing in the fourth quarter in this series against the Miami team that you're right, isn't exactly shooting the lights out. You're also right. The unit is not as deep as it's supposed to be because you can get really messed up with depth because you're like, oh, I know that guy. And that guy had a good game. That guy, like to me, if I'm the Celtics,

give me all the Kendrick Nunn you can give me. Like take more shots. Yeah, bring them in. Same for Crowder. Let's go, Crowder. Jay, knock yourself out. Please take those. Duncan Robinson, like who I love aspects of his game,

but there's another reason why you're like, okay, he's getting attacked. He gets a couple early fouls. I think that's happened to him in two games in this series where you're like, okay, he's getting attacked. He gets a couple early fouls. I think that's happening in two games in this series where you're like, okay, now that's messed him up. The problem is for the Celtics in game four, Tyler Hero turned into a short whiter, Kevin Durant out of nowhere. You're like, okay,

37 for this guy. I was going to go Jimmy Chitwood for him. He's just too quick, and his drip, Chitwood was just straight up, man. Chitwood would not wear skinny jeans, although maybe he did back then. He just didn't know. They were lead boundaries.

His modern day Jimmy Chitwood. Yeah, but this number, the turnovers are part of it, and I'm going to ask you kind of like a follow-up after this, but the Celtics defense in the fourth quarter is allowing 131.8 points per 100 possessions. That's an impossible number to be that bad and they've tried a bunch of different things we can get out a little bit more but i mean how much do you think it's the zone and how much do you think it's just kind of these moments where you look at their iso players and go what the fuck are you guys doing

the turnovers they have 63 turnovers in four games. That's just appalling. It's almost 60 in a game. Yeah. And really dumb ones too. You know, it's Wanamaker driving the basket and throwing the guy in the corner, but the ball hits the baseline.

It's Wanamaker carrying it. It's Marcus Smart just, just throwing it right to somebody else. It's Hayward in a huge play in game four when they really need a basket or they're probably going to lose, lofting a pass to Tatum and Butler just jumping up and grabbing it.

Or Iguodala tapping it out of your hands because you're holding it up there waiting for him to tap it away from you. And so I give credit to the zone and this inverted zone where they have their bigs up top. I love seeing guys try different stuff. But the reason why teams don't play zone all the time is you're actually supposed to figure it out right and boston i don't blame them for not like kemba having a bad toronto series when you're gonna box and want somebody the right way

it's gonna screw you up you know what i mean like you're not gonna go off and they were trying to do almost this this kill the you know chop off the head to kill the snake thing with kemba in the toronto series but this boston series i'm with you there's all these moments where you go that wasn't even special defense that's you kind of not having a plan and i'm i guess i'm just surprised that this many talented players collectively who are all pretty good iso players who you're just like hey when boston's right it's like man they can put out like five guys, including Hayward now, and get a bucket at the end of the shot clock. And they just have so many sloppy turnovers

that it's leading to free points the other way. If I said to you before the series, all the shooting numbers are going to be the same, but Boston's going to turn the ball over 21 more times in the first four games. What would you, what would you have said? You would say they'd be down three, one. Yeah.

If I told you Miami's going to have, maybe all the shooting numbers are basically a wash. All the points are the, are a wash, but Miami has 42 turnovers. Boston is 63. I'd be'd be like man 63 turnovers in four games what happened did was kemba playing it's the fourth quarter stuff too because you're just doing the other team such a favor and you know jimmy butler's their fourth leading score i know again he's he's had he has stretches and that's why you know as much as everybody's in a jimmy butler love fest and i'm i say this to not knock him although dude when he shows up with tyler heroes high school jersey and then cj mccollum who we like tweets out thought he was a bad teammate you're like hey cj

you want to ask fucking carl anthony towns and wick like and again i was on jimmy's side about thinking those guys were soft but i mean to just decide to go nuclear so you get your way out of there during a practice knowing espn was there to cover the whole thing like give me a break just thinking those guys were soft, but I mean, to just decide to go nuclear so you get your way out of there during a practice knowing ESPN was there to cover the whole thing, like, give me a break just because we're Heroes of Jersey.

You definitely weren't a good teammate. Yeah, it wasn't fun, but like, do you look back on this series and think this is this massive wasted opportunity because... I do.

No, I want to talk about that because... Go ahead. I told you this two weeks ago. I am a big, never think your window is going to be 10 years guy with the NBA. And I really felt like this for this Boston team, this was an unbelievable chance for them to make the finals.

And we talked about this even before Milwaukee got knocked out. I don't know what Philly is going to look like next year. I don't know what Milwaukee will look like next year. I don't know if the East is going to be much better than it is this year. I don't know what Milwaukee could look like next year. I don't know if the East is going to be much better than it is this year. I'm guessing it will be because Brooklyn's going to be really good too and God knows who else. All I know is this year they had a chance to make the finals.

Game one and game two, they threw away. They should have at least split those and Miami made every single play. Kudos to them. They're a smarter team. They're mentally tougher. But they pulled out those first two. And then yesterday, you know,

the Celtics basically couldn't figure out how to shut down a 20-year-old kid. And I just, he was making really tough shots. I just find it hard to believe they couldn't come up with a strategy other than, oh man,

got to hand it to him. Like, that's crazy to me. And I, I, I don't understand. Look, Brad Stevens does way more about basketball than I do. It's so obvious to me that they should be going small

and switching on everything. They tried that, though. Everything. No, I would just do that. That would be my strategy, though. Especially when Hero's feeling it like that. Because I don't want to see Rob Williams again in this series because he doesn't know how to defend the three-point line. He comes in

Miami just hunts him right away. They're like great getting wide open threes. The thing that scared me about yesterday is Miami didn't even shoot that well other than Hero. I think they were like 30% from three but all the threes were wide open. I don't think Boston's played good defense in this series. I don't think they played

smart. They haven't protected the ball. I don't know what happened to Tatum in this series. I don't think they played smart. They haven't protected the ball. I don't know what happened to Tatum in the first half. In the second half, he turned into, you know, LeBron James in 2007 against the Pistons. It's just really weird because I think they're going to look back at this series and just be like, what happened? How did we do all that dumb shit for two solid weeks and then miami's gonna look at this like yeah we're a veteran team we're smart we're tougher than them

we pulled this out that's that's what the outcome is going to be unless boston can flip it i know they tried a bunch of different things with butler like to try to stop him because they've had moments where it didn't work and then they i would think you might see more of helping off iguodala but then there's a perfect play of like what this team is and what it's like to have a guy like bam and it totally looked like the warriors in the beginning with draymond green with the lineup of death their death lineup excuse me um i don't know if that's tm'd but uh trap trap left side butler butler throws the bam bam throws the baseline to iggy iggy kicks out drag it was great and you just that's why, like, can you trap then? All right?

Because if you trap and then Bam gets to make the decision, four on three, you're probably screwed. Because Bam can even put it on the floor and finish the whole time. So even though we went in going, hey, Miami's deeper, but Boston's one through four is probably a little bit better. When Tatum, who, look, we all love, but just took a first half off, and I'm trying to figure out if he's hurt or not, and you're like, what's going on?

His energy just sucked, and look, he picked it up in the third quarter, but you just can't have, when you're down 2-1, you can't play like that. And Kemba's having moments, too, where, you know, whether it's the way they trap him, and I think he just tries hard all the time, but that can be scary when it doesn't go right, and, you know know i don't really like criticizing smart anymore because i know at least from a toughness and competitive

standpoint a caring point he's going to care but there's still going to be a bad three like he had where he trailed transition it was like 20 seconds left in the shot clock you know like that's not what we need right now so miami still feels like look we both picked miami i think before the series did you pick miami too? Right. Oh, yeah. I thought it was close. I thought it was close. I could see Boston winning game five, maybe make it a little weird.

I am wondering if... Well, hold that thought, though. Here's how they win game five. The biggest thing that's changed over the last two weeks is that this is no longer a nine-man team for Miami. It's basically a 7v7 series now, and Boston can win that. I thought Miami's biggest advantage was going to be this depth and Olenek coming in in the second quarter and scoring 12 points and Kendrick Nunn torching Wanamaker. At least once, right? Yeah.

And none of that stuff's happening. And Robinson's playing awful. Robinson is having the weirdest stat series. He's 12 for 32 field goal. He's 12 for 31 from three. He's taken one two-point shot in four games, which is not the player that he was during the season. One of the things I liked about him was he wasn't like Kyle Korver.

He actually could create, and he would go to the basket and stuff like that. And he's now been pigeonholed as this defensive liability who only shoots threes. So they've kind of taken him out. But it's basically been their six and a half

versus Boston's six and a half. And their six and a half has just been slightly, slightly better. And then at the end of games, they're able to play Dragic and Hero together. And for whatever reason, I really am surprised Smart can't shut down Hero when he gets like that.

I would have thought that would have been like a perfect guy for Smart to guard and chase around picks and do smart stuff, but he hasn't been able to solve it. And I don't really know what their answer is in crunch time against that lineup. I still think with Hero, there's a little underestimating him, even though he's first in assist in this series for the Heat.

He's second in rebounds. He's got the best assist turnover ratio. So it's not like he's just gunning threes. He's good on the catch. He's good off the dribble. He's good on the hard cuts. He had a handoff where he was coming around the top where he just looked like he was full speed, stop, right up.

That was incredible i that those are incredible shots when he's 20 hit on smart on the left side where smart's like i don't have to close out on you yet and he's like all right i'll just stick it right in you and i'm like oh man so i'd imagine that's the easiest adjustment is that whoever gets him like he's going to be thinking about him for the for two days going i got him start treating him like he's luka donchik she's not tyler hero like they're really gonna have to be thinking about him for the, for two days going, I got him. Start treating him like he's Luka Doncic and that Tyler hero. Like they really going to have to start thinking about him. Like when this guy's in,

when he starts feeling it, we have to now change our entire offense. The other problem is they'd never solved the BAM thing. BAM has been awesome in this series. He's just a great basketball. Those roles. They, he's just going to beat you.

And he beats them all the time with it too. He's destroyed Tice. Like honestly, he's destroyed him. Cause T, and he beats them all the time with it, too. He's destroyed Tice. Honestly, he's destroyed him. Because Tice is caught in the middle a little bit, though. I think it's just a tough spot, but go ahead. Yeah. It's tough. The sub-certainer is a tough spot.

I have some hero stuff, but I want to take a break first. What does possible sound like for your business? It's the ability to reach further with access to over 1400 lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. What's the feeling of fall? It's finally catching the sunrise. And not because you woke up early.

No, you woke up nice and late. And you know what? The sun waited. Then you went and got what you love from Starbucks, the new pecan crunch oat latte and new baked apple croissant. And enjoyed that warm apple filling and those nutty flavors with rich brown buttery notes while the sun rose just for you. That's the feeling of fall. And it's only at Starbucks. On the hero thing, I was thinking about this concept of every playoffs,

there's a young guy who has a moment and it becomes this really important moment. So I was going to call him the Reggie Hammond team for Eddie Murphy in 48 Hours, Reggie Hammond, where it's just kind of, he's in the torches bar, that one scene, and you just come out and be like, wow, that guy's a fucking star.

As soon as that torches scene's over, it's like, that guy's going to be in my life for a while. Hero became that guy this year in the playoffs, which I think was really unexpected because I made a list, list actually of the last 15 years of the guys who have had these moments in the playoffs. And he's probably the most unexpected one. You know, I think for 2020, Hero and Luka, right? Luka's the other one.

Luka's not a surprise, but, you know, we're always going to remember that Clippers game and all that stuff. And when you think back, 2020 playoffs, what happened? That'll be something to remember. 2019, it was Yoka, Jen, Murray, that combo, which I think after that playoffs, we were like, okay, these guys, this is the team. 2018 was Tatum going to the finals against Cleveland, Eastern Finals, and Donovan Mitchell beating Chris Paul.

Remember that? Where we're just like, oh, those guys. Okay. Donovan Mitchell. So he's going to be a real guy. 2017, Bradley Beal, I think was a big winner. I couldn't find a 2016, but then going down, I'll just do quickly. Butler, Dame, Steph Curry in 2013, Harden in 2012 when he took out the Spurs, Paul George that year too, Durant and Westbrook in 11, Rondo in 2010, Rose 2009, Chris Paul 2008, Darren Williams 2007, LeBron 06, and then Amari and Wade in 05. And the reason I have all those guys listed like that is all of those guys were like high pedigree lottery guys where it would have been at you. You wanted to have their basketball card when they came out. We expected something good to happen with them. It wasn't shocking, right? It wasn't shocking that Luca

did what he did to the Clippers because we'd watched him all year. The hero thing is shocking. And I think he's here to stay. I don't think this is a fluke. I really think this guy's like, this guy is going to be like a multiple time all-star guard. He's kind of perfect for how basketball is played. I always loved him. I did not see this coming. Would you trade this year's number one pick for him? Yeah, no, no, you wouldn't. Oh my God. Are you kidding? I'd much rather have here other than the number one pick in this draft. Oh no. That's what I mean. Would you trade?

Meaning if you had the pick, would you trade if you're the Minnesota Timberwolves? Oh yeah. Right. Oh, I'd have to throw in more picks. All right. I'm just double checking. Cause sometimes people, um, when I did it for Duncan Robinson, not everybody liked it. So I found my scouting report on Hero that I wrote before the draft.

Oh, let's hear it. Okay. Decent frame, bad wingspan, moves okay. I think he makes it. I think whether or not he makes the deal is how his body develops. And you'd be quick enough to get open off the ball, passable on D. He's just, this is when I started. So I started with that.

And I can tell as I keep writing, it's either like it goes in the direction of me liking a player or not liking a player. He's just a smart player. That was a sentence. The way he comes to the ball is cuts off the ball, transition drive where he tees the defender in two-on-one and get a wide-open layup. His cuts, his cuts, his cuts. So I started falling in love with him. He has all the tricks. Let's the defender get into him, and he pushes

him off, runs his guy into screens. I love all of it. He puts him on the floor more than you might think. He's the best off-the the ball player in the first round i love the way he repositions behind the line reminds me of clay he's a small guard or excuse me he's a shooting guard that probably be a guy off the bench early that can hit shots and stick around because he's big enough and you didn't even put in one of my favorite secret things about him is that he rebounds. I love that. He rebounds.

I love that. I love guards that rebound. He almost had a triple double in one of the games last week, but yeah, he's just, he, what, one of the things I love about him,

he never disappears. There's no like Jeff green quarter where it's just like, where's that guy? Oh, he's out there. He's like the opposite of, of like a Wiggins type where you just can disappear for 15 minutes. He's always going to touch the ball,

be involved, do something, hit a three. He does. He doesn't get scared. And, uh, you know,

he's 20, but Tatum's 22. I don't think Tatum gets enough credit for how young he is either. Like the quality of some of these dudes, Jamal Murray he is either. Like the quality of some of these dudes, Jamal Murray's 23. The, the quality of some of these dudes, like my son and I were watching the bird of magic documentary the other

day. Bird was 23 when he came in the league. You had like Patrick Ewing was like 22. These guys, these four year seniors, you know, they come in as Duncan. It's a four year senior.

They come in as finished products. And, uh, I, I think it's so incredible that regardless of whether they win the title this year, they're going to be a contender for the next five years. And it's going to be more because of Hero and Bam Adebayo like in 2024 than Jimmy Butler, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to have that kind of game,

and I try not to ever get too curious. Like, all right, so if you're going to be one of those guys, let's keep seeing it. I know Van Gundy keeps losing his mind, Van Gundy in the cut, who keeps getting mad, like, how is he second team? How is he second team? You're like, well, over the course of the season, that's kind of the way it plays out.

Right, sorry. Yeah, exactly. But between bam's development and tyler's development and draga chu is now because of hero and bam doesn't get enough credit because he still feels like they're steadying force like okay we have something here we need something you want me to play off the ball i mean god i love guards that can get it on their own but then are totally comfortable playing off the ball um oh it Always been a good playoff guy too. Yeah. By the way, he was available before the season

and even the first month of the season. Anybody could have had him. Are you talking Dragic? Yeah, he was an expiring contract. Anybody could have gone after him. And it's just weird. You think like Kendrick Nunn was starting over him for most of the year.

And he was a little banged up and all that stuff. Yeah, Nunn was going off in the beginning of the year. And he was a little banged up and all that stuff. Yeah, Nunn was going off in the beginning of the year, too. Nunn was going off. Right. But the Dragic resurgence is like a legit resurgence. And it started a few months ago. But he's playing. He's like that 2010 Spurs series.

Remember that? When he just destroyed the Spurs? Question for you, then. He took like a stake and ran it to their heart? Between Dragic, Hero, Jokic, Caruso.

Come on. Don't put Caruso in that company. Okay. All right. Doncic. Is this the best time

in white basketball history since the Plumlee parents met? Did you see heroes? Jersey was like number one on fanatics today. Yes. I love that. Are you serious? When he got drafted,

I was like, Oh my God, I go, he should have gone higher just based the way he was dressed. By the way, do you love that? I read you my scattering report knowing that if it had said no fucking way this guy sucks i would have never read it yeah there's no way you're it was it was kind of a humble brag i wasn't gonna call you out on it

but you should have you should have but you know what sometimes you get to give yourself credit when no one else will no that was a good that was a good scattering report um miami's here to stay and i think miami's good. And if they get by Boston, which odds are they will, you know, they're certainly heavy favorites to advance. I think they're going to be a hard team for the Lakers to play.

I might pick them. Well, my concern is that they're going to become the sexy zag. People are going to be like, watch this. No, you're right. Sexy zags have a terrible, terrible success rate. Sexy zags always fucking suck. Yeah. But

Tyler Hero, answer me this. Who's guarding Hero and Dragic in crunch time? Caruso and Rondo? No, Pope. Pope, Rondo, Caruso would be your defensive matchups there. Bam's going to be able to at least

make Davis sweat to get to 35 points. And on the other end, he's going to be rolling all the time and trying to get dudes in foul trouble. If I'm Miami and that's the finals matchup, I would tell the younger guys on the team

be like, DM Kuzma all week and say he should ask for a contract extension. I'd be asking. I'd be just trying to get them off center the entire time. You're right, because as I've sat here and thought, hey, it's not crazy. It's definitely not crazy. It's not crazy, but then is it crazy

to actually go ahead and pick them? But I do think a lot of people will end up picking them because of the Laker flaws, which are not enough to get in the way of them coming out of the West, at least the way it feels tonight. And what a setup for Pat Riley too, where you dispatch Boston, the team that haunted him and stole the 1984 title from him and all that stuff. And then you go to the finals, LeBron, the guy who ditched him 2014, the Lakers,

the team he used to, uh, be the man for who thought they could replace it with Mike Dunleavy after he left. And, uh, yeah, I mean,

I guarantee he would love, not that he's playing, but this, he has to be peeing himself. He's got to be so excited. That's pretty good. That's why when you used to write, that would have been a good article.

Well, remember- Seriously, though, to just map it out that way, because the revenge against LeBron, by the way, which was nasty, he basically scolded him on the way out of there. And he could just be like, there's part of me that understands Riley's being upset, be like, Hey, if you're going to just bail on the franchise, a little heads up, it's like, okay, but that's the world of LeBron. But it was better than that to know.

It was better than that because when he knew he might be leaving, he gave that press conference. I did a little book of basketball thing about it when he did that whole long speech. And it was basically directed at LeBron. yeah like he's basically like this is hard you're not supposed to win every year only one team can win every year the whole point is you stay together and you try to overcome adversity you don't take the easy way out and apparently lebron was really pissed after he did that i was like oh fuck this guy because it was directed it was it was an old man in his eyes behind a table who like didn't open up all that often deciding to just scold the guy because he bounced but you know it's the same thing out of cleveland

but then you just learn that that's the way it's gonna be like you're gonna be the last to know he's not gonna tell many people and he's gonna make his decision i mean hell even when he ended up going to the lakers there was like i'll never forget i ended up going out and i was getting late night calls from a couple guys being like there's this weird rumor going around that he's gonna stay in cleveland i was like no it was the actual nba players not that they were calling me but calling other people and it was um it's just one of those things where pat wasn't going to get over it because he felt like hey once you're part of this in the heat culture which may be brought up a few times during the finals coverage if they

end up in it i'm not I will never say the words. Can I ask you a big picture question about something near and dear to your heart? Yeah. Okay, Brad Stevens. President Brad Stevens. It's been a tough four weeks. Okay, go.

Why don't you just take it any direction because then I have another thing to ask you about afterwards. The Toronto series took way too long and I thought Nurse really worked him in that series because then I have another thing to ask you about afterwards. The Toronto series took way too long. And I thought Nurse really worked him in that series for a good chunk of it. And it was the biggest test Stevens has had from another coach in the series. I thought Nurse did a great job.

That series shouldn't have gone seven. It did. And then in this series, I just find it hard to believe you could be this flummoxed by a zone. And that even after four games, you can still let dudes just go off on the, or basically get any shot they want with a pick. It just shouldn't be this easy.

And I just don't think, I think he's a great coach who has had a not great last couple weeks i'm going to present you with a an arc here um because we both know how boston fans work although i don't think this is necessarily even particular boston fans but if the south center blues in this series we know what happens hey i thought this guy was awesome because i think brad was doing things nobody expected. The Celtics are supposed to be rebuilding. They're not rebuilding. They end up being a one seed, uh, 2018. They end up a couple of possessions away from maybe getting their, their brains beaten in against the warriors, but actually like how the hell is that team in the NBA finals? I know I said something about that finals run Easter conference finals, by the

way, um, that I said, you know, this is as impressive as any single season Pop has ever had. And we don't even know if he's going to get to the NBA Finals because those rosters weren't that good.

I mean, if you look at some of the guys that were getting major minutes, you're like, how is this happening? Chris Mannix, who we both like, had this legendary tweet

that I'm going to pull up because I was thinking about this the other day. This is from May of 2018 as they're on that run. And it says, you're the GM of an expansion team. You have your May of 2018 as they're on that run. And it says, you're the GM of an expansion team. You have your choice of any NBA player or Brad Stevens. Who do you choose?

21,000 votes, 66% said the player, 34% for a coach is high. That kind of stuff now two years later is absurd. The stuff that I said maybe about the Spurs thing, I regret. But the general idea that Brad Stevens could come into the league and do that much more with that much less, I think was misleading and basically not even true. It was just the East sucked. We look at it now and you go, yeah, the East just really kind of sucked and LeBron was taking off regular season stuff and not grinding.

Then he was beating everybody in the playoffs again so I I feel like Brad is almost a victim of his early success and smashing expectations to now people are going to jump on him in a way that he's never really experienced there's been hints of it in the past where it's like if this is guy this guy is so great like what the hell is going? Miami's not that much better than the Celtics. What's the deal? And I think it has less to do with Brad, the coach, and everything to do with those early years. That's fair.

Here's what I would say in defense of Brad. Everybody who ends up on this team, with the exception of Gordon Hayward, it became the best version of them. And this dates back five, six, seven years. And you could talk about Evan Turner, Avery Bradley, Marcus Morris. Yeah, just everybody.

Everybody who's in his system. Jared Salinger. Kyrie, ironically, you know, I guess he was one that Brad didn't get the best out of, but could anybody have pulled that off? I don't know. What is Bush? I don't know. So I think, I think from that aspect,

he has a tendency to get guys to overachieve. My question for him is like, well, what happens if you have the more talented team? Cause I would say if you put the Boston talent against the Miami talent, it's either even, or Boston might even have a slight edge because of how great Tatum is or how great Tatum could be. And is he getting the most out of Tatum in this series?

Because to win this series, Tatum is the one that has to be unlocked. Tatum, this is now a best player in the series series. Has Tatum gotten there? He's 26, 10, and 5. Pretty good numbers. 45% shooting, 32%, 31% from three. He's getting in the free throw line.

My issue with him is the shot selection with him has kind of reverted back to 2019, especially at the end of the quarters. And I think this would be Brad's single biggest accomplishment. If they came back and won this series because they figured out how to unlock Tatum

against that zone. Because it seems like that zone should be something Tatum should destroy. And they can't figure it out. And if they can't figure it out, he's going to think about it all summer. Or there is no summer. He's going to think about it all,

what would it be, all winter? Yeah, all winter. He'll think about it. How could I not unlock a fucking two three zone yeah especially when you have your smalls along the baseline because i used to always love seeing teams because in college you see it far more when you just watch a ton of college basketball back in the day when i cared about the big east um you run a guy in the baseline you just run them back and forth and back and forth and And then people lose him and you get somebody in the middle. You can still set a screen in the middle of the zone

and you just dribble with the purpose that you're going to get in there. And then the help comes up and then somebody cuts baseline. You can actually make a zone look terrible if you get to the middle. I don't know what the number of possessions are. I'm not a second spectrum off the top of my head here. But I feel like they get in trouble when they try to attack the zone from the sides and they do it way too much

because Jalen and Tatum are these big wings and then Marcus can kind of be all over the place and then Kemba maybe doesn't get to go in the direction that he normally would in a regular season game. And Van Gundy made a good point too because they were getting guys to the middle. They were actually getting the guys into that middle spot,

which is where you want to attack it but van gundy it's a perfect point you got to at least look at the hoop when you catch the ball in the middle so that the defense reacts because if you never even look at the hoop then they're never going to really react to it's not even a closeout but they're not going to go to you the way that normally a defender would when you just ignore it and you're looking to move the basketball before trying to get them to commit to a decision you may not even make. And challenge Bam. Yeah. They're going to play zone.

Take it to him. Try to get two fouls on him. That's another thing that's driven me crazy. They made it easy on him to stay in the game. The Lakers are challenging Jokic. They want him to get foul trouble. And I kind of wish that would be a strategy for the Celtics.

I don't understand NBA teams with that because even when Dotschgers got into some foul trouble in the Clippers series and they asked Doc and Doc goes, yeah, we don't go hunting for fouls. He just screws you up your whole offense. I'm like, yeah, but maybe two looks at it because you're probably going to have somebody take a terrible three on one of those other possessions.

So what's wrong? I'm with you. I wish teams hunted out another extra foul on a guy every now and then. Why not? Yeah, right. Like, if a guy like Paul George coming out of game seven with his third foul, that changed everything with five minutes to go because Jamal Murray went bananas at the end of the second quarter.

And it might have been worth, Doc, putting Paul George back in. And here we are talking about the Clippers again. So I apologize. Coming up, could James Harden have a little cheesesteak stuck in his beard? That's next. Let me tell you one more time about Bacardi Spiced Rum. You love the classic.

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Coral Gables, Florida. Rum with natural flavors and spices. Delicious rum. 35% alcohol by volume. All right. We don't usually do segments about rumors here. We're not oblivious. The Simmons podcast with Priscilla is guest. We're not always innocent of it, but yes, for the most part. No, we don't usually tailor it sports radio style, but this one was too hard to resist.

And it took off on Twitter today and who knows? But the rumor is that Philly's going to try to hire Mike D'Antoni and try to get James Harden. I had also heard a rumor that was separate from this.

And the only, I went, I don't go on Twitter anymore. I went on Twitter and just searched for Harden Philly. All this stuff came up. I was like, Oh, so this was a thing today.

I've just heard rumblings about this and I don't know what's real and what's not real. And I'm trying to figure out how it would even work, but let's just start here. Fundamentally. It has to probably be in bead for Harden, right? If this happened.

So if you're Philly, you could hire Mike D'Antoni and you could flip Joel and bead for James Harden. Do not aggregate this. We're not reporting this. We're not saying it's too late. It's too late. It's all hypothetical.

This is all going to come out by the way. So just, just a heads heads up would you do that would you give up joel mb for james hard and put him with ben simmons and horford and harris and whoever else you have and unleash mike d'antoni and the entire crew let's start from the philly side. Would you do it? Yeah, I probably would. I probably would. I think I would too. Well, I think my hardened position is well documented.

Um, that's quick. And aside, imagine going from Ben Simmons being your point guard to Russell Westbrook being your point guard. If you were in B, no one deserves that. It's cruel.

That's just poor kid would probably retire. Like, sorry, I'm done with this. I don't know. Um, what's that Hulu campaign with him where it's cruel that's just poor kid would probably retire like sorry i'm done with this i don't know uh what's that hulu campaign with him where it's like joel joel's mad he's very joel's mad about his memes that could be the new hulu campaign joel's mad he still doesn't have a point card joe we got good news we got bad news good news is hulu wants to re-sign for another year bad news is you're a rocket and Westbrook is your point guard. Good news, no state tax.

Is that true? I'm just kidding. All right. Well, look, I answered. Is it a slam dunk if you're Philly? So Embiid's five

years younger. I think there's been no signs of drop-off statistically from Harden. I was surprised as I thought about this from the Philly side that I think I would say yes. I do. I think it solves every problem I have. It's a change of scenery move. It's a massive move. I have. It's a change the scenery move. It's a massive move.

I sell more jerseys, the whole thing. Let's flip to the Houston side. I don't think Houston would do it. Yeah, I don't think Houston would do it. So that's where I landed mentally. Because if I'm Houston, I'm like, all right, so I'm getting Embiid. Didn't seem like he was totally in shape last year. I have no idea if he's going to be happy if he's coming to Houston. Huge injury history,

obviously. I'm giving up a first team all NBA guy. Now I'm putting Embiid with Westbrook, PJ Tucker, Covington, Eric Gordon. Where am I heading? I'm basically making this huge bet that Embiid is pissed off from the trade and says, fuck this. I am declaring revenge on everybody. I'm getting in the best shape of my life and I'm ripping through the league. And I guess the other thing you would say for Houston is like,

I'm never winning a title with James Harden. We have a long, long, long sample size of him as the best player on a playoff team. And every year it ends with the team getting eliminated. So why wouldn't I do this? That would be how I talked myself into it. Okay. Let me just go on the other side of this.

Which I totally understand. I'm not saying like, oh, because I understand what you're doing as you're doing it. Houston's probably more in the position, especially with the ownership situation, which we don't know how dire it is considering for Tita and the hotels and the tourism part of it. I've read everything you've read, too, that on paper it could be really scary. So if that's true, and it could still be the decision if it's not true, is that at least with Harden, I know I'm probably winning 50 games. I have a guy that Houston fans trust me.

I know this still love and back all the time. He puts up big numbers. It's a star in a, in a weird sense, sells jerseys were relevant and yeah, we're not winning a title with them, but we're relevant. And Harden still brings it basically every night,

which he deserves a ton of credit for. So even though he's five years older, I, I worry. Like, Embiid's health has probably gone far better than I would have thought it would have, even though he still had time where he's missed, you know? Yeah. But as he gets older, like, the real answer is that

I know what I'm getting with Harden. The speculative answer is, what is Embiid going to be? But here's the other part of this that we haven't mentioned, and why it'd be a no for me. I would be scared as hell of essentially now I'm Westbrook's team. Because without Harden, Westbrook's like,

okay, now we're back to my shit where I've got the ball every single time. And as he gets older and is a $40 million plus a year guy, I mean, it ball every single time. And as he gets older and is a $40 million plus year guy, I mean, it's already bad enough. Um, and we can say he was hurt in the playoffs or whatever,

but I mean, that wasn't anything new as far as I was concerned when I saw in the playoffs. Um, now that Harden's not there, like Harden probably keeps rust in check just a little bit. That wouldn't happen. Cause you just look at Embiid saying I've done more than you.

I've had more, more skin in the game. And now it's my team. Embiid is on the books for 29.3 next year, 31.3, and then 33.6. Harden makes about 10 million a year more than that each year. He is 41, 44, and 47.

So Philly would have to put in another contract to make that work. Maybe it's like Embiid and Josh Richardson for Hart or something like that. Yeah, they're pretty close. I mean, they'd get there if they wanted to. I'm going to make the case for this trade just as a whole. I'm going to make a case

for the trade itself. It's so much more fun. Here's what we would get. We split up and beat in Simmons, which I think you and I both agree that's never going to ever have the kind of upside people would think. I just have never liked the fit.

I don't think it ever gets better. We split Houston and Harden. We don't have to watch that anymore. We don't have to watch that anymore. We don't get to see that. That's over. No more Harden-Houston games. No more people trying to talk to themselves

and them as a playoff team, all that stuff. We get those two things. Those are two wins. We get Embiid now with his own team being like fuck this I'm at the possibility of him coming in being you know with a chip on his

shoulder wreaking havoc on the west which would be really fun and then you have Harden and Philly which any way it goes is going to be phenomenally entertaining if he's great that'll be awesome if he's disappointing the Sixers fans will turn on him in five seconds because they love Embiid.

No matter what outcome it is, it's incredible. And it's an incredible trade. And I just think they should call it in and it should happen. Plus, we split up the clutch stuff too, by the way. Then we have, then Philly officially becomes the Simmons clutch team and then Embiid, then that gets split up too. So the part that I kind of can't tell which side I'm on is that in a way I should be rooting for it to end, just be like, hey, it never happened. Like all you guys all year, the media members down there that kept saying all the national guys are idiots

because you didn't buy into this being a chance to win a title. They'd be like, all right, hey, guess what? It didn't happen. But part of me wants to see Houston do it again. Fair Harden's going off again. They're looking around at the West. They're looking at the seedings. People are tweeting out per 100 stuff.

They're like, look at this. We haven't seen offensive efficiency since and they and then you know look daryl took a bunch of shots at me on twitter i would say something and i was even nice about it at times being like hey their defense is better than people give them credit for it's the rebounding rate i'm a i'm a truth teller bill you know that and then daryl would be like but will it work in the playoffs you know blah blah blah and you're like okay right i'm sure you're sick of hearing it, but guess what? It doesn't work. But yeah, no, I want Houston fans did one more.

I want one more year of listening to them. Tell me it's actually going to be the year that it actually works, which is dangerous, which is dangerous because you never know one injury here, one injury there. Chris Paul, two years ago, maybe they have a ring, but the Philly part of it would be fascinating because I can't believe

I'm actually saying yes, as much as I love Embiid, but I think it's two teams. You're torn up by this trade. You like this. I am because normally you don't get triggered by fake trades, but this one's really in your head. It's living there. Yeah. It's like Tyler Harrow at the Celtics.

It's just living inside you i because you know what i think is interesting about it is about a year ago can you imagine all of us collectively saying yeah i'd probably rather trade in bead than simmons that's a pretty big leap from where we were a year ago right agreed yeah because i i think physically i just didn't like what i saw last year, and neither did you. And now he's a year older. He's a year and a half older. I actually love a lot of Embiid. I really do.

If you told me I could get Embiid with a chip on his shoulder out of this trade, that would be my number one most appealing thing for it. You're being too dismissive of my Westbrook team point, though, I think. I'm buying Westbrook stock. I think he's getting extra. What?

No, I'm kidding. You actually got me there. I thought you were serious. Yeah. Well, you know, his calf was bothering him. Oh, I know. No, I know. It was hard for him to shake off the COVID.

You know, there's a whole roadmap for, was Russ more compromised than he led on in the bubble last year? Why Russ is going to have another superstar season? I can't believe he made 13 on NBA. I was outraged. I was just absolutely outraged. Chris Middleton, he didn't make it because of this weird forward center point thing

that I didn't even know existed. Did you see that whole thing? Did you follow that? Yeah, I did. No, I did. When I saw Westbrook made it. I couldn't believe that. But Westbrook was so good in those two months that that's all he really needed to do.

And I'd like to think that the whole year counts. Yeah, me too. It apparently doesn't. Again, I don't vote for it. So I don't put the amount of time. Look, if I voted for it obviously i would i would take it very seriously but when i saw that i went oh well the voters a bunch of voters just went ahead with westbrook because he was insane those last few months um this is kind of funny though

because as you're talking about the the westbrook injury thing because this these articles are already written they're just coming out whenever the season starts that it's like look there's a lot going on rondo's brother made fun of him you know emotionally emotionally that's just you know the bubble they were told they were not they were told rondo's brother was not going to make fun of them during live action yeah they've said the bar the barber was supposed to be off limits he wasn't he he took some liberties we'd heard there would be more international reporters. But when LeBron was struggling tonight in Game 4, he just didn't look like LeBron in Game 4.

That's okay. If we've learned anything throughout these playoffs, your favorite player is probably not going to look like himself or the best version of himself a couple times if your team's going deep. I was wondering who was going to jump at the chance to go, well, LeBron, it's just, it's just, you know,

this bubble thing is starting to wear guys down. It was, if that series had gone, if the series had gone 2-2, I was already, I wish I could bet on FanDuel for that. Who will write LeBron? Well, have you seen the thing about how the

closer the team is, the better it is for them in the bubble? I like that whole thing. The Celtics had a pool party the other day between Game 2 and Game 3. It's like, this bubble thing is an advantage for them. They actually like hanging out. And then you read the Clipper stuff, and you're like, oh, no wonder they got the hell out of there after Route 2.

Yeah, I guess I... I just can't believe we live in a world where Markeith Morris is going to play in crunch time for a finals team. Like, what the fuck is going on? Honestly. Well, that's what happens when you have that option. Because somebody was asking me the other day, like, do you think the Lakers are bad at developing players? And I went, you know, back to 2015, if you want to go D'Angelo Russell, we're talking three different coaches. Yeah. The Heat have a system in place.

The development of Bam, Hero, Duncan, it's incredible. So the easy answer is yes. But ultimately, like, who cares what you're developing when you can trade them all for Anthony Davis? Yeah. And I think Ingram getting out of LA was just helped him. I agree. You know, I,

so look, I, I'm, this isn't, this is the reason why you're talking about Marquis Morris right now is because you go, all right, they traded everything for it.

We keep our depth or we could go get that guy. Pairs, pairs you'd want for the next five years. Your choices are Luka Porzingis, Jokic, Murray, Tatum, Brown, Simmons, and Embiid.

Rank them one to four. All right, I missed the third one in there. So Luka, KP. Jokic, Murray, Simmons, Embiid, Tatum, Brown. Rank them one through four God that's actually way harder than you think because I think you almost Simmons and bead I've

seen enough of Brown I have them for I have them for right Brown's the worst player of the eight yeah come on he's been awesome in this Miami series. I guess you have Porzingis eighth. So you have Luka one and Porzingis eighth, I bet. Yes.

Well, only because for Porzingis, just because of the injuries. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I think it's Jokic-Murray is the first choice, and then it's Luka because of Luka, and I don't care who the other guy is I had Luka, Porzingis Jokic-Murray Tatum-Brown

Simmons-Embiid if it was Luka if it was Luka-Dwight Powell would you have taken Luka? listen my joke I was going to tell you was if it was Luka-Seth Curry that's still my number one pick

hey don't disrespect Seth Curry no I would really I'm happy with both guys that I'm getting I'm getting two good guys Watch it Lucas, Seth Curry would be my

But yeah, so yeah, Luka and anybody is my number one pick Because especially what we're watching in the bubble this year and this round It's like, that's how you win the title with a guy who does all that stuff Like Miami won game three or game four with Tyler Hero doing a Luka impression And this round, it's like, that's how you win the title with the guy who does all that stuff. Like Miami won game three or game four with Tyler Hero doing a Luka impression.

That's how you're going to win in the way basketball is played now. You have to have that guy. It's so weird that you need that guy so much more than you need a center. Because we grew up in a world where it's like, you got to get that center. You got to get that big guy. And now it's like, you got to get Luka. You have to have a guy like that who can create a shot for himself or other people. There's just no spacing then,

you know, there's just the game. It looks like a completely different sport. And sometimes I'm not saying like, you know what I really miss is 18 second post possessions where, where eight people watched, but there's other nights too, where I see 32% shooters

jacking it up from 30 feet out where I go, yeah, this is way better. Can I give you one more? I'm just trying to figure out who I could put with Luka for you to take him not number one. What if it was Luka and Westbrook's contract? I'd still take Luka.

What if it's Luka and John Wall? I'd still take him. It's just a Luka tax. What if it's Luka and Dra Wall? Let's still take them. It's just the Luca tax. What if it's Luca and Drago? Ivan Drago. Can I give you one more? Luca and Rick Riley. No.

Zach Levine and Wendell Carter. Or Marvin Bagley, Buddy Hield. Yeah, I'm going to take anybody that, I mean, the Zach Levine thing, you're usually going to lose me. I still have a lot of hope for Wendell Carter, though. I do. I do too.

But I'll go Buddy and the unknown of Bagley. High ceiling, Bagley. High, high ceiling. How about a Zach Levine for Buddy trade? Didn't the Kings try to sign Zach Levine? Didn't they try to RFA him that time? I thought they did. I don't remember off the top of my

head. Let's find out. But Buddy for Zach Levine on paper, you'd be like, oh, they would never trade Zach Levine on paper you'd be like oh they would never trade Zach Levine but you and I both like Buddy more right you know who actually likes Zach no you know who likes Zach Levine a lot

is LeBron there you go alright we're gonna take a break and we're gonna talk football which we rarely do in this podcast looking forward to it alright we're doing Million Dollar Picks doing it with do in this podcast. Looking forward to it. All right, we're doing Million Dollar Picks, doing it with Rossello this week.

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Let's make some picks. All right. I was right about Zach Levine. They did the Kingston offer. All right. We're going to do billion-dollar picks in one second. We're going to be using the lines from FanDuel. I'm going to give you three quick NFL topics

before we do the picks. Topic number one is Drew Brees washed up. Too early. You got to give me more than two weeks, especially one of them without Michael Thomas and a Saints defense that I actually really like coming in that got lit up by Derek Carr and the Vegas Raiders. So, you know, just we do.

I know he wasn't throwing the football down the field. I get all of the criticisms. I'm not telling you he's still awesome. I just need a little bit more time before I'm ready to say, hey, they're doomed with Drew Brees. Would you least rather be the Giants or the Jets? The Jets.

The Jets are missing all their skill guys this week, too. I just saw that. The Darnold thing is looking... I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's... Do you think Darnold is actually a worse option than Daniel Jones now at this point? It's pretty much dead even. Darnold might be like

a minus 115 favorite, but it's way closer. Yeah, it's way closer than I think I ever expected. How about you? Who would you rather be? I'd rather be the Giants. They at least have a couple skill guys that I like.

The Jets are not only a wasteland, but the coach really seems like he's by far the worst coach out of the 32. He's dramatically terrible. Yeah, if you feel like with Gase, it's like somebody would say,

hey, you're not good at this but just relax on the whole presentation too yeah like Joe Judge it's going to take us because he's so buttoned up and yet people do really like him it appears you know and it's early but but Judge is it's going to be harder to figure out if he doesn't know what he's doing which I don't think I've anybody's heard that no one's and he just doesn't have the resume that those other guys have had. So I think Gase alone makes it an easy answer. My last question does, did it keep you awake this week when you found out Russell Wilson and never

got an MVP vote? How did you react? Walk me through like your first couple of days. Well, it was tough over here at Russ HQ. And you know how I feel about him. Look, I love the player. You guys just know I hate his interviews so much

because they're atrocious interviews. But this is really simple. If you go through it and you go through it year to year, was somebody supposed to give Russ a first place vote last year over Lamar Jackson? I'll answer for you, no. Was someone two years ago supposed to give Russ a vote over Patrick Mahomes?

Again, I'll answer no. Three years ago, I actually said on my radio show all season long, I think it's Russ. It should be Russ. It should be Russ. And then Brady closes the way he closes. And you're like, you know what? Brady was the right choice.

So no. Matt Ryan with Shanahan. No. Cam Newton and what he did, especially the comebacks in the second half of the season and the way he closed where it could have been Brady that year too in 2015. So when you go and look at the years and you go, well, it sounds weird. He's never had a first place vote, but then you're basically saying, Hey, somebody should have voted for the wrong guy in the years that that happens. And I'll put it this way back in 2015, the radio lineup at ESPN was greeny Gola cow, Cowherd, me, Van Pelt.

If you voted hot as talk show host, we know that Cowherd's winning. But does it mean that Greeny's ugly? We do this, as you would say. I say it too much. No, we do this, and we don't actually look at the year by year. Like, it was just... So if I told you Kobe won one MVP... Oh, my God.

What the hell? Laker fans have a heart attack, right? Like, how did Kobe only win one MVP? He's the greatest player of all time. That's crazy. And then you do the exercise of, okay, well, what was the other

MVP he should have won? The only other one that's even possible is 06. So then you say to Laker fans or whoever is arguing this Kobe thing, how many times did Kobe finish in the top three in MVP? You'd be like, what,

10, 11? No, it was actually five. First place, first place, second place, three third places. This is over the course of, I don't know, 18, 19 years. We think of like, when we talk about awards, you think of what you think should have happened, but the year by year is just, it is what it is. And that's it. And it's like, Kareem won six MVPs. Kareem was six MVPs, a second place, two third places. It's fucking amazing.

But guess what? Kareem was amazing. He dominated a whole decade. This is the case against, if you're talking about Kobe historically, like he was really, really, really good. He was a top five guy for a long time, but he was never like dominant the way Kareem, LeBron, Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird won three straight MVPs.

Barkley. Magic won three. Moses was the best player in the league for four years. You're going down the line that Kobe never had that stretch that he ripped off. But now if you look at it in 2020, people would lose their minds. If they were like, what?

Kobe only won one MVP, only five top three finishes, what? It's like, well, that's why we keep track of this stuff year by year. Sorry. It drives me crazy because it's not that hard. You know how long it took me to rattle off that MVP thing? I just looked it up because I go, wait a minute, let me go back and look at this. And I go, oh, okay.

Do the work. So show your math, show your math show your math and yet there'll be talk shows that they'll be on the show be like russ never got a first place vote and then everybody does like a collective eye roll like they're all in on it and i go i would be uncomfortable being out on set saying this stuff if i didn't go back and look at it the whole time and that's not that hard to do it took less than five minutes to go oh wait that's right oh that's right shanahan and matt ryan oh that's right, oh, wait, that's right. Oh, that's right. Shanahan and Matt Ryan. Oh, that's right.

Brady that year. Oh, that's right. Cam. Oh, okay. And then like, was anybody going, who was doing the talk show in 2018 that said Russell Wilson is having a better year than Patrick Mahomes? Because nobody was doing it. Nobody was doing it unless you were in Seattle and you're just a homer and what the whole

thing. So it's not that hard to figure out why we had this Russ thing, but I'll give it, I'll give it up. It's turned into a thing now where you're almost shamed into it. So if he has a big time season and they win 12 games, he's winning this thing. I think it's a little bit why LeBron did what he did when he complained about only getting the 16 first place votes. You're, you're just putting a little pressure on everybody and you're making them rethink it. It's almost like a guilt trip. It's like when my dad makes me feel guilty

that I haven't been to Boston in nine months. It's like, I know what you're doing. It's a little tiny dig, but I know the purpose behind it. If you take a private jet back, I'll go with you. But LeBron, we've brought it up, but I think the bubble may have cost LeBron an MVP this year if we have a normal regular season with momentum coming

off that thing we did that last spot and Giannis got hurt I don't think even Wilbon did it like he started talking it up and then it starts carrying over I know Ramona said it that night right we we we called it going if this were to continue on some like nice close and they have the best record.

Actually, I don't think they're going to catch Milwaukee. I don't remember the record off the top of my head now. But then it resets, and then no one really cares. The Lakers actually played terrible, and the bubble stuff wasn't going to count towards the voting anyway because they said they didn't want to make it unfair for any of the awards. But LeBron could sit there and say, I didn't get enough first-place votes.

But you go, okay. But statistically, especially when you look at the whole picture, it was't get enough first place votes, but you go, okay. But statistically, especially when you look at the whole picture, it was kind of hard to put you first unless you were voting for the story, which some people did. But the narrative, the narrative part of it, which, you know, I've been,

I've been guilty of falling for that too. I'm not going to, I'm not going to lie. Maybe we should try not. Maybe we should vote for the MVP five years after the season happens. Like the Oscars. That's what I wonder if the Oscars. That's what I want to do for the Oscars. All right.

Million dollar picks. Week one. Week one, I lost $848,000. What? Last week, I hit everything. I won $1.24 million. So now I'm up $378,000 for the season. I'm going to go through my picks with you.

I haven't officially signed off on these, but I'm going to tell you what I'm up $378,000 for the season. I'm going to go through my picks with you. I haven't officially signed off on these, but I'm going to tell you what I'm thinking. And I'm just going to bounce these off. I have a general idea of what I'm going to do. There's three games that I like, but I'm staying away from. First one, Titans at Vikings.

Titans are favored by two and a half. And it's one of those games where you look at it and you go, oh, Titans. You can't wait to bet on them. The Vikings suck. They're having the year from hell. This will be easy. I don't know why the line's not three. It seems too easy. And I can't think of a single reason to take the Vikings. So that actually scares me and I'm staying away. Can you think of a reason to take the Vikings? Only that they can't be this bad. I mean, cousins who is not exactly my dude. Uh, I, this is like atrocious. Um, yeah. And you know, they just lost bar. I think they're, I think they lost like three of their top five linebackers going into this weekend. So that number seems so small, but it has to to be it's the second most public number as far as public money uh on the titans so only the buccaneers have more public

money on them in their broncos matchup um so that alone with my old van pelt days of fading the public that alone would scare me a little bit but yeah it looks it looks pretty sticky the other thing that worries me about this if you like the tit Titans is they barely beat the Jags last week. And you come out of that and go, wow, the Jags frisky. And then the Jags get housed by Miami. That's not a good sign for Tennessee. So that game is a stay away. Second game that I'm staying away from, even though I stared at it for a while, the Washington professional football team is getting seven and a half points against Cleveland. I love getting that extra half point. The Browns, people are feeling good about them after last week.

A little two-headed running attack. Baker didn't kill them. They're home again. I really like Washington's defense. Not as sold on their offense. I really wanted to take the seven and a half with Washington, but here's why I'm not doing it. I actually think Cleveland might have found something with the, with the two headed rushing monster with Chubb and with Kareem Hunt over the course of four quarters. It's really tough. I mean, honestly, those two might be two of the best, like eight or nine running backs in

the league. And you got Chubb one series and then Hunt comes in and I actually think they found an identity last week and it scares me enough that I'm going to stay away even though I can't believe that the line is that high. But we might be coming back to them in a second for the long shot parlay of the week. But for the seven and a half,

I'm going to stay away. I'd rather bet Washington straight up. Any thoughts on this? I think Washington to stay away. I'd rather bet Washington straight up. Any thoughts on this? I think Washington might be terrible. Yeah. Yeah. And because the Eagles were so bad in that game and Haskins had a couple plays, and I think people talk themselves into young quarterbacks and who knows with

Haskins, but I think the second week of Washington is more in line with probably who they are right now. So, uh, I, I wouldn't want to, I feel like that's the kind of game where you go,

why did I bet on Washington when they might be awful and they lose by 20, which is why we're staying away. Third one. So the Texans are getting four in Pittsburgh and I do like the, the 0-2 team in certain situations, even though I do not like this Houston team that much. But they played Kansas City and Baltimore the first two weeks.

There's no way to know if this team is even good or not. Their schedule is never going to approach those first two weeks again. And then with the Steelers, I don't know. They didn't look great against the Giants. Then that Denver game, Jeff Driscoll comes in halfway through

and they're lingering and hanging around. And then Denver has a chance to win. I have no idea if the Steelers are good. And I look at this stuff like, am I getting free points? And in this, I just think with this being a must win for the Texans against the 2-0 Steelers,

I feel like the line should be 3 or 3.5 and it's 4. So I feel like I'm getting at least a free point. And yet, I'm still staying away because I don't like this Texans team. What do you think? I love the 0-2 theory, especially when you think about who they played, but it's been pretty ugly. But I'm that big of a fan of Deshaun that I'd take a shot at it. But the personnel for the Steelers defense is something that I still really like. And you kind of navigate through it. You're like, all right, by the end of the month, how am I going to feel about some of these defensive groups? I think Steelers have a chance to be one of those groups that you're still going to like.

And the depth of receiver, again, with unknown dudes, unless you're big into college football. It looks like they haven't skipped a beat in evaluating the receivers. But Houston can't be this bad. Chase Claypool. What the fuck? Love Chase Claypool. They did it again.

Yeah. And then the other kid, too. The Patriots can never do it. And the Steelers just do it every year. All right. So you agree to stay away on this one? Yeah, I think there's other stuff I like better. Okay.

Go ahead. All right. So here's what we're looking at. I've done a tease both weeks. I like doing the teasers. So I love the cards. I've watched every play of both Cardinals games and I just like them against the Lions. I don't think the Lions secondary is very good. I like Kyler. I think something's happening with that team. And I'm not sure people totally realize that they're only favored by five against the Lions. So you have a chance to team that with Tampa. Tampa's in Denver. I don't love Tampa. I do love their defense.

And I do think they're at least pretty good. Denver's a team that it has gone sideways and then some. Like they just lost Cortland Sutton, they don't have a quarterback. Von Miller's long gone. And they're also in a really good division, you know, plus Cortland Sutton, then I have a quarterback. Von Miller's long gone. Yeah. And they're also in a really good division, you know, where you're,

you're with the chiefs, the Raiders are two and oh, the chargers look fucking really frisky last week and they're better too. So they're kind of clearly the fourth place team. They've had some bad luck. It seems like they're hitting this point in the season where it might actually go really sideways. And maybe you even start thinking, ah, fuck it. Maybe we should really, really suck.

So if I can tease the Cardinals to plus one and Tampa to even, and I just need those teams to win, I'm going to do that. My question for you is I could do a three teamer, make it a 10 point tease, and I could bring in the Colts minus 11.5 at home against the Jets who are missing all of their receivers, their running back, guys all over the place, and Adam Gase is their head coach. Do I even need to bring the Colts in or should I just do the Cardinals and Tampa as the two-team tease? Yeah, the more dangerous you get with all this stuff, though,

the more likely you're going to get screwed on some outcome that nobody sees coming, which would be a Jets win against the Colts, right? Yeah. Even though it seems impossible on paper. Phil Rivers just fucking me completely. You've done this long enough that you don't need me to tell you the lesson of how stupid you feel

when you first learn about all these different things you can do when you're like, oh, wait, are you serious? Dude, that team sucks um i had to give out one on my fan dual pick and i gave out detroit because it opened at three and then it went to six and now it's five or five and a half and it's the second most uh publicly bet side on the cards because everybody just likes them now everybody kind of likes them i don't know that it's revenge for the tie last year i don't know if you put that up you put that up in the the whiteboard and be like last year we tied suck um but i could see detroit but since you're teasing

it down and it's basically two pick'ems i like that combo i do i'm just gonna go ahead and say all the cards have to do is win i I'm fully prepared to sweat it out. I think you keep it at two. I like you better at two teams than three teams. Okay. All right. So we're locking those in. Cards, minus five Tampa, minus six.

Next one. It looks a tiny bit too easy, but maybe it doesn't. Falcons minus three over the Bears. To me, the Falcons are a one-on-one team. The onside kick thing was absolutely ludicrous. It was a once-in-a-lifetime fuck-up. They outplayed Dallas. They deserved to win. They didn't win. I love

the fact that they can move the ball and score, which they did over and over again against Dallas. My question with the Bears, Atlanta's defense is not very good. Atlanta's also 0-2, which I love. Coming off a bad loss, this is a revenge week for them where they

just got to atone for their sins. No one believes in 0-2 teams like you do. I've always said that. No, I've always said that about you. The Bears are 2-0. I definitely don't believe in them. First of all, are the Bears going to go 3-0? That seems unrealistic. Second, if the Falcons can get to 30 points, can Mitch be. Second, if the Falcons can get to 30 points,

can Mitch be matching them and matching the points also seems unrealistic. So I like the Falcons minus three, even though it seems a little obvious. What do you think you, I I'm prepared to be talked out of this. I can't bet on the bears. So I'm with you there. And I mean, I'm dumb enough to keep believing that Matt Ryan can turn this thing around. I mean, I think I've been saying that since that Super Bowl loss. My thing is when I bet on teams, especially teams that are 0-2 or underdogs, whatever,

I want to know that at least they're going to be able to move the ball and have drives and make plays and do stuff like that, which is going to lead us to our next team that I'm picking in a second. The Falcons are going to move the ball and score points. They are. Yeah, it's going to happen. So Ryan through four, have I, have I shown you that Seattle number? What Seattle's past defenses now granted they've, they've gone up against two teams that threw the ball all over the place, including cam, but like Seattle's giving up 412 yards passing and then there's only one other team that's giving up over 300 and then every other team is less than 300 so it's

like seattle so yes um the easy answer to that is that no matter what atlanta's problems are i still can you ever imagine a belichick coach team like no one jumping on an onside kick before the 10 yards? I honestly say he would kill himself. He would pull out a samurai sword and do that. And jam a samurai into his heart. All right. I think they go in the gut.

I'm going to pencil in the Falcons. Next one. Same case. Bengals at the Eagles. Bengals getting four and a half. I watched that Bengals-Browns game, and I think the Bengals could move the ball and throw the ball. And one of the reasons I like this is even if the Eagles are up 10 in the fourth quarter, I still feel like Burrow is going to be an unbelievable garbage time quarterback. I think if you're down 14 and you need to hit him to cover the teas,

get it down to seven or you're down, whatever, he is going to have some cheap TDs. He's got decent receivers. Um, he knows how to kind of scramble or make plays. And I think they could win this game because I think the Eagles stink. I really do.

I think they stink. So four and a half, I thought the line should have been Eagles by three. I'm getting, you know, a point and a half. DVOA through two weeks, Philly was last, 32nd. Philly might be bad. This is basically a split, but actually just a little bit more

of the public monies on Cincinnati. I'm going to ask you this. I'm not saying Burrow is Brady, but does Burrow look like early, early Brady to you? Not, all right, we're going to air this thing out a couple years later into his career. It's not the strongest arm, but it's... I think he's

way more agile than Brady was, even young Brady. Yeah, if you're going to get out and run, it's Burrow all day. Brady could never do these 23-yard scrambles and stuff like that. No, I'm not saying that, but I'm just... I also think he's, honestly, more accurate

than Brady was the first couple years of his career. Brady wasn't accurate like this. No, I think he's just funny. I think he's better than Brady was. All right, so he's going to be better than Brady. Six rounds. No, no, did not say that. Oh, okay.

I think Brady in the 0-4 season vaulted a level. He was... Yes. The first two seasons was not like what we saw from Burrow so you agree with me on this Bengals 4.5 yeah why the hell not next one I'm not positive

about I just want to talk it through doing the whole board here? no I got three more I'm not positive on this one Rams plus 2 against the Bills I think I'm staying away I really like positive on this one. Rams plus two against the Bills. I think I'm staying away. I really like the Rams this year.

I bet on them to win the NFC. The Bills are 2-0, and Allen put up all these numbers, but they play two shit teams. And I believe in the Rams. It worries me, though, that they're plus two. I feel like they should be Bills by three. It means that people are on the Rams. People have noticed them.

And something makes me nervous about it. So I'm leaning towards staying away. What do you think? Two things. One, when you have the Rams actually have an offensive line and Cooper Cup, we realize they're just a different team. And we almost forgot what that looks like. The offensive line graded out as one of the worst, if not like the second worst

in the league last year. And Cup, one of the things I loved when we had worst in the league last year. And Cup. One of the things I loved when we had Dilfer on the first pod, and they did a really good job, like how the broadcast was. I think that was the Sunday nighter, right? The Rams, the first one? Yeah.

The way they were already kind of in sync with selling, the way they were blocking stuff, it was just really a great call. NBC and Michaels and Collinsworth did an awesome job on that game, I thought. And I'm like, man, these guys are already, like, really locked in. I think that's one of McVay's specialties is, hey, we're going to do what we do. We're going to make it simple, but it's going to be hard to deal with because we're just going to be that good at some of this stuff. That was kind of the old Chip Kelly thing at Oregon. We're like, we're just going to execute what we execute better than other teams do. And with Cup being back in the O-line again.

So I would, I'm with you, but look, I thought Josh Allen was on the road to fake hope, kind of like a Mitch Trubisky thing, and he's been, now it's what, the Jets in Miami, but he's destroyed those teams. So I could be wrong about Allen, and that's probably why that number, like you thought they should have been favored by more LA? I expected the Bills

to be favored by three. They were favored by two. I thought just because the Bills were 2-0, playoff team last year. You know? So anyway. Alright, I'm going to mark that down tentatively. Two more. Packers plus three Saints. This is... I'm probably staying away from this one because

I wouldn't touch this one this would be a pure go against Drew Brees play I wouldn't know what to do with this one I think we'll get a little bit more of the Drew Brees answer except for the fact that Rogers looks like he's mad Aaron Rogers

from like four years ago. I can't help you. It's a fair line. I don't feel like I'm getting any value with the three. The line is what it is. The only question is without Michael Thomas, can the Saints move the ball? I just assume

they're going to pull weird Sean Payton reverse shit and a couple gimmick plays and stuff like that. I'm going to hold off on this one probably. Last one would be Cowboys plus five at the Seahawks. You mentioned how bad the Seahawks pass defense was. The reason I like this one is just because five points is a lot.

I'm in garbage time touchdown territory with that too. If the Seahawks are up 10, I can still cover with the late touchdown. I don't understand why this isn't Cowboys three instead of Cowboys five. New England almost covered. I mean, if they get the two point conversion, they cover that game. I mean, on top of almost winning. So I don't have any problem with with taking that many points at the very least they're going to move the football against them just like everybody else has and another week

with the receivers and and dac and i think some of the no huddle stuff that they had to run just to get back into that game against atlanta and then he starts putting on a show i would think that they'd be a little bit more aggressive and try some more of that stuff so uh i would rather have all those points than than trying to get past them. So yeah. The fear on this one is they have no linebackers and Seattle has the ball for like 40 minutes. So I just want to talk out that part for one second.

There's a version of this game where Seattle just completely dominates and Dallas never has the ball. Yeah, but we got to see it from a defense that hasn't been good now for a few years. I mean, it's been okay, but it hasn't been very good against its secondary. I didn't really even realize it because when I was looking at stuff after the Adams trade,

it was like, wait, oh, their secondary is actually kind of sucked now for a while. Well, they have no pass rush. I mean, Cam could do whatever he wanted last week. All right. Last one is the long shot parlay of the week. I'm putting Cincy in there. I sprinkle a little on two long shots to win. And so it's like 10 to one odds.

So since he's plus one 84 and that's going to be one of them, other possibilities for the second spot Raiders plus one 98 against the Pats. I can't do that. Cause I love the Pats. Um, Washington plus two 75 Carolina plus two 30 against the chargers. No McCaffrey.

Dallas plus 184 in Seattle. Or that's it. You like any of those? I don't like Panthers Chargers. I'm telling you, man. I think that Chargers defense is awesome. I like Derwin James. Yeah, I'm a fan.

So you had one that I like. Raiders. Yeah, I'm a fan. So you had one that I liked. Raiders Pats. There you go. Raiders plus 198. Are you going to be shocked if the Raiders... Nah, you know, you're right. I had it down and I was like, the thing is like,

this is a long shot parlay and I care more about being accurate and obviously I'll be rooting for the Pats. It's not like I'm going to be like, oh, I got this parlay and I care more about being accurate. And obviously I'll be rooting for the Pats. It's not like I'm going to be like, oh, I got this parlay. I got to figure out whatever. All right. So that is one. I like your loser parlay voice.

Thank you. So that's plus 746 for that. Raiders plus 198 with Cincy plus 184. All right, so here's what we're doing. 500K on a teaser. Cards minus five, Tampa minus six. 250K on the following four.

Falcons minus three over the Bears. Bengals plus four and a half over the Eagles. Cowboys plus five over the Seahawks. And Rams plus two over the Bills. And then the long shot parlay of the week is Raiders plus 198 and Cincy plus 184. I'm going to put, I'm going to go light on that one. I'm going to go 10K to win seven.

It's basically 74,600. How's that sound to you? you like this was it more fun with van pelt i feel like the second one no no no no it was not any fun with van pelt van pelt was an asshole about it the whole time and he knows it so i don't i'm not like he would just look at me go through because i didn't put a ton of time into it i know shocker um i did used to love to bet and then i just felt like i don't know it wasn't when i wasn't and i didn't have any money it was kind of sucked to not not be winning so um but scott loved it he wanted he wanted to be known as like the guy and he was pretty good uh but the thing is stanford steve was better and that used to like

scott we get super competitive about it and he basically would just look at me to be like, get done with your five stupid picks and let the show begin. So it was a very much like that was his thing. He loved giving out his picks. He'd be talking about the board all week. He'd have his card. He would give out three tastes, but those weren't official picks. He didn't like any exotics but that was like his thing and i got that it was his thing but for my role on it it wasn't a lot of fun and then if i had a good year and beat him he would tell me that i didn't deserve to beat him he'd be like well that was just stupid you shouldn't have won this year and i'd go yeah but i did and he'd be like whatever or if i were ahead in the standings he'd be be like, you're not going to win, you know? And I'd be like, all right, relax, guy.

Wow. Well, he knows this. Is this when you guys started seeing a marriage counselor? We only had like four fights ever in six years. So I love our track record. But he knows that that segment was, like, I should have not even done it. I should have just gone, look, this is your favorite thing to give out pics just do go solo yeah just have it be your thing because you're including me because there was always this stuff and if i weren't included then maybe i would have been a shithead

about it back then anyway but um that was that was his time to shine and i just knew like after a while after six years of it i was like all right because he would just be like wrap it up wrap it up wrap it up i gotta go and i'm like all right i got it he never actually did the finger roll in front of me that's always a bad finger roll yeah that's insulting would you do your co-host hey wrap it up that's you know you guys are headed for a fight all right so we'll be back next thursday i i'm assuming the finals is gonna start wednesday unless we have a game seven but if we have i don't know we're gonna have to figure this out because there might be a basketball game

next Wednesday. So we're going to have to figure out our schedule for next week. Then we'll just do it. I'll see you at some point next week. All right, man.

Sounds good.