The Bill Simmons Podcast - LeBron Believes (Again), Philly's Big Test, and a Chaotic Summer Coming With Brian Windhorst | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 360)

Episode Date: May 2, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons talks with ESPN's Brian Windhorst about how LeBron James seems to believe in this Cavs team once again, the different peaks of LeBron's career, the Celtics-76ers series, LeBron's "final act," Kawhi Leonard's future, and what a wild offseason the NBA is about to have. You can find the 'Melothon 2018' shirt at bit.ly/ringershop. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When the Cavs wanted to replace evil Tristan Thompson with good Tristan Thompson, guess what they did? They used ZipRecruiter. They brought the old Tristan Thompson back. 80% of employers who post a job on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within a day. They're the best at distributing your job to the best boards, identifying the right people, inviting them to apply. My listeners can try it for free

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Concepcion this week. Really funny. Good times. But yeah, if you want Mellothon, Mello must go from OKC raising $28 million for the fans of OKC to pay off Melo. You can buy that shirt right now on TheRinger.com slash shop. Coming up in a second, my old friend from ESPN, Brian Windhorst. We're going to talk about LeBron, NBA playoffs, and a lot more. Today's a special day for the Simmons family. My daughter turned 13. She's not going to come on the podcast. But it's just crazy. A lot of you out there are

probably not parents. I'm assuming most of you out there are not parents. Some of you are, but going through, I did an Instagram story, just a couple of different pictures of her today. And it's just nuts. Like you can remember this stuff from 2007, 2008, like it was a week ago. And meanwhile, it was 10 years ago and just, you know, 13 years and Lord only knows what's going to happen next. What I really wanted, you know, this podcast is free. You, uh, you've probably subscribed to it even the last couple of years, or maybe even going back to the ESPN BS report days. I've never really asked for much. Just pray for me over the next four or five years. Just pray.

If you're saying your prayers tonight before bed or at church this weekend or whatever you're doing religiously, just put in like three seconds for me. My daughter's 13. I don't know what the hell's going to happen. Oh my God. Anyway, happy birthday, Z. We love you.

You're a great kid. Nicest kid I know. I hope that doesn't change. All right, it's been a while. My old friend from ESPN, Brian Windhorst. How are you? Bill, I'm great, except for there's a lot more intention and energy that I'm used to for game one of the second round of the playoffs. I'm used to LeBron, the Cavs not really causing any sweat until like midway through the conference finals.

Yeah. I felt like LeBron last night is specifically, I felt like he's kind of back with this team. I, especially like midway through that Indiana series, we've seen him do this before where he's just, I'm doing my thing. I'm not going to really, I'm not going to go out of my way to lead anybody, but I'm not going to poison this either.

I'm just kind of in no man's land here. Last night. I felt like he's like, we're, we're doing this. We got this and he's inspiring people and he's chest bumping and he's doing all this stuff. He looks, it looks like this is his team again. Am I crazy thinking this from 3000 miles away? and he's chest bumping and he's doing all this stuff. It looks like this is his team again. Am I crazy thinking this from 3,000 miles away? No, and if you watch the end of the game last night, so Van Vliet gets the three, it bounces off the rim,

and the ball bounces around, and Tristan gets it. LeBron raises his hand, raises his arms in the lane, celebrating victory. The last time I saw him do that was game seven of the 2016 finals. Wow. He was like really, really proud of that win. And look, there were, there were videos. I mean, there were clips of video that you could find from games three and four in the Indiana series where you could have used it against him later on.

Yeah. I mean, there was a, I think the second half of game four, people may have better memories than I do that'll use it against me, but he didn't come inside the paint for like the first half of the fourth quarter. Yeah. And I kind of felt like he was like, I don't think this team can win. Now, the fair rebuttal to that is that he's just really tired. And one of the things that he's tried to do is figured out how to rest during the game. But that said, I got the same feel as

you did was that LeBron was kind of losing faith. And, and I, that's, that's good. I think that's, I think you're on the right track. Well, we've been watching this guy. I've been watching him for 15 years. You've even been longer than that. I don't think anybody has seen him play more minutes probably than you have. I can't imagine there's a human being out there other than maybe family members that he has. And there's been moments during the course of his career. I would almost call them fork in the road moments that he's had with individual teams.

We saw it in 2010, those last two games against Boston. There was a moment in 2012, I feel like during that Indiana series when it might've gone either way and him and Wade just wouldn't let it happen. 2014, definitely the finals. And especially in that last game when he was just, he was firing angry passes. And you could tell he was just mad at the team he had. And then I felt that in the Indiana series too, where it's like, he's still doing his thing. He's playing hard, but there's this detachment.

And now this is like, I would say, the fifth time maybe in his career I've seen it. And now it's gone. What do you think changed? Why does he believe in this team now? Well, I think it really helped that some of his teammates started making shots. I know that that's pretty simplistic analysis,

but let's say Van Vliet had hit one of those threes last night. And watching it live, I didn't really realize how off he was. I mean, the first one in overtime or at the end of fourth quarter was like two feet left. I didn't realize that watching it live, not until I saw the replay. But let's just say Van Vliet knocks down one of those shots. Or let's say DeRozan's tip-in doesn't spin out. And let's say the Raptors get their two-point win and they celebrate and they're up 1-0, etc. I would have felt way better about the Cavs, even down 0-1 after they played

that game, than I did coming in. Because for the first time in like three weeks, that actually looked like the team that won 50 games. Now, they were an underachieving team, but they did win 50 games. They did have a lot of good wins. And that looked like the team again. And so I thought, man, this is a, you know, instead of just taking a loss in game one, they actually, you know, rebounded and, you know, actually got some traction. And so that's what I think re-engaged LeBron. They're out running plays again. J.R. Smith was hitting shots. Tristan Thompson was out there doing what he did in 2016. It felt more like a game when they were playing well during the regular season.

To be honest with you, that should be a bit of a warning to the rest of the East. If the Cavs are going to come back and at least be that team, they had a couple of long winning streaks this year. Then they actually might be able to have some teeth again. Now, they're so inconsistent that they could go right back into a tailspin. But that was the first time I saw a team that I felt like could win the Eastern Conference during these playoffs. Well, we both think LeBron is a basketball genius.

I've written this before, and I think you have too. And I do think he calculates this stuff like the Terminator. The team he had before Thompson's miraculous resurrection was not a team that could make the finals. And whether they were going to lose in round one, round two, round three, they just didn't have enough flexibility. They didn't have the rebounding toughness. They weren't able to protect the rim.

And more importantly, they didn't have the lineup flexibility. They didn't have the rebounding toughness. They weren't able to protect the rim. And more importantly, they didn't have the lineup flexibility. As you're advancing round by round, you need to have a team that can adapt to whatever situation it's in. And that team just, he knew pretty early on that all the guys that got in that trade deadline, probably he wasn't going to be able to count on them. They hadn't been in a lot of big games. And if anything was going to happen, it was going to be J.R. Corver, Tristan Thompson, love, guys he had been in the wars with, but he didn't have Thompson.

Then Thompson shows up in game seven like, honestly, like he parachuted out of the sky. What the hell happened with Thompson? He was basically a bum for this entire season. How is he Tristan Thompson again? It's very confounding. It's very confounding. You know, there was a, it was kind of a sad moment. I'm trying to think what game was one of the, I think it was after

game five and in Cleveland, which was obviously a tremendous game for, for the Cavs. That was a game. LeBron hit the game winner at the buzzer. Yeah. And I was, um, I was, you know, the press conferences were going on and I didn't go to them. I ended up talking to this agent in this hallway and Tristan had to sort of

make an escape, you know, for, for weeks because of the stuff that was going on off the court. Yeah. Like he, he couldn't, he, he was, constantly trying to dodge the media, and the Cavs were doing the best they could.

He would, like, leave outside doors, you know, when the media would get let in the locker room, that's when he knew to make an escape out the side door. In this particular case, it was during the press conference, so he knew there would be no media around. He had to have a bodyguard walk him out of his own arena. Not like to fend somebody off, but just in case a rogue camera came at him. He was having to get a bubble of protection around him.

And regardless of what was going on, and I don't know what's going on over there. I don't know the whole story. I'll be the first to tell you. He was just really down. Here was this great win. He didn't even have any friends and family there waiting for him in the family room like you know i mean i'm not saying they weren't there at the game but he was just kind of leaving by himself it was this great moment um he didn't play in the game to get in the game at all and that's just you know a reminder of how

long playoff series are how long individual games are in the finals, or in the playoffs. You know, this guy was, a week ago, he was way down. And yesterday, he's back in his hometown, in Toronto, having a major, impactful game. And he had this... I thought he did a great job

with the last play of overtime. They ran a screen and roll for DeRozan, and he got switched on to him and derosen came to the basket and tristan used his length to shut him down and derosen tried his um his pump fake move then that's derosen probably got 300 free throws this year on pump fakes and tristan stayed down he didn't he didn't go up he just it's real disciplined basketball yeah and he had to throw it out to Van Vliet. And I asked him after the game about not biting on those pump fakes. And he did something that was kind of attention relief. He goes, well, we have a rule that if any of us bite on a DeRozan pump fake, it's a hundred

dollars fine. And I've got a new kid and I've got to worry about college tuition and I don't want to lose my money. And he was obviously making a little joke there, but it was sort of his little acknowledgement. You know, I've been through some stuff and I'm now feeling a little bit better and I can make a little joke reference to it. And it was sort of a, even though I know that the tabloid media has got blood on their fangs about this, it was kind of a little acknowledgement that he was kind of getting back to himself. Not only on the court, but also just that he could maybe have a light moment with us afterwards. Well, I really think they had zero chance of making the finals unless they got something from him.

And I think LeBron knew this because against Toronto, Toronto's got size. Valanchinis is, you know, he's not an all-star, but if you don't have a center, he's going to have his way. And he's going to, and even last night he had his way to some degree, but then the next round against Embiid, if they're getting nothing from Thompson, they're just done. They don't have a center. And all of a sudden, I feel like the ceiling of this team, it's completely changed. If they can get 2016 Thompson, even for five weeks, that might be enough to make the finals. Did you think, I don't know, midway through the Indiana series, did you think this team had a shot to make the finals? No. No. I didn't know, midway through the Indiana series, did you think this team had a shot to make the finals? No. I didn't either.

I'll just say that they are a very fragile team. They spin wildly on the dial all the time. I don't want to sit here and listen back to this podcast in five days and think, boy, what a fool. So it could still go way left. And I acknowledge that it could go way right even during the Pacers series, but they were completely smoke and mirroring that thing. And they've won five playoff games by 15 total points. And he had Dwayne Casey last night saying,

I thought we were the better team. And I was like, boy, that's exactly what Nate Mabillo was saying three days ago. So, you know, you could present two different cases. On one hand, you could say they're on a razor's edge. They're smoking mirrors. One guy turns his ankle or whatever. One guy gets in foul trouble or whatever. They're out of the game. On the other hand, you could say they really haven't played anywhere near their best game yet. And just because they've got the best player, they've somehow miraculously won

five games. And what if this is the beginning of a 10-game cycle where they play well, which is something that did happen at times during the regular season. And if they hit a 10 game cycle where they play well in 10 games, they might be in the final. I don't think it could go either way. And I don't have a good feel of which way it'll be, but last night was very progressive in towards the game that the Cavs want to play.

And Bill, I don't even think Tristan Thompson was that big a part of the game plan coming in. No, but I think they realized eventually that they had no chance in this entire series unless they got something out of him. Right? I felt bad for Valanchunas last night because he has a 21-point, 21-rebound game. Yeah. And he had a beautiful suit with a beautiful bow tie. He dressed to be on that podium and he couldn't make the podium in a 2020

game against the Cavs. He was dominant. Yeah, I think I thought it was really interesting after game seven of the Indiana series, LeBron inadvertently revealed that he's coaching the team, which I think we all knew anyway, but he's like, you know, it's a game seven. I wanted my guys out there. I wanted the guy, I wanted my guys who'd been in big games. And it's clear that he told Ty Lue before that game, look, if we're going down into game seven, I need, I need my dudes from 2016. Like forget Rodney Hood and all these other dudes. Like, let's go to, let's go to war with the guys that we know have been in wars. And it really does seem like it's invigorated him a little bit. Now, whether you can rely on

J.R. Smith and Kyle Korver and whatever the hell is going on with Kevin Love, who just does not seem like the same guy, whether that's enough, I don't know. But I will say this, and I'm sure you felt it in the arena last night. Not only does he own Toronto, not only was it absolutely ludicrous that they were plus 160 underdogs heading into the series, but I could feel it through the TV. That crowd, when it started slipping away in the fourth quarter, it felt like a 2003 Red Sox against the Yankees crowd.

Could you feel it in the arena? Yeah, so there's this thing that happens in basketball games in general, and it happens in NBA playoff games especially. It's difficult to describe. You just sort of get a feel. I mean, if you've gone

to a lot of games, you've watched a lot of games, you don't have to be a high-level analyst. You can feel it. You see this sometimes in NCAA tournament games too, but those games aren't quite as long, so there's not as much nuance. You can feel the game moving. And it doesn't always work out,

but you could, and the Raptors fans, okay, they've now, this is the fourth year they're sort of in a playoff run with their team. And I came up here a few weeks ago to do a story on their they were 0 and 10 in game ones um and i talked to some of their fans some of their long-term fans who sit close to the court guys who've been season ticket holders since like 95 98 and they described how there is this sense of dread that overtakes the crowd.

And that happened again last night. And I didn't think that DeRozan and Lowry choked, per se. They got tight, though. They got tight, and then they kind of rallied out of it. But there was a two-minute stretch where it was hot potato. You could feel it. Yeah, and this is just a devastating stat. I don't know how their way to present it but the calves and when i say the calves i'm essentially talking about lebron but i guess

you're talking about those five guys um they've won four straight playoff games here over three years so do you think they're going to go to bed tonight worried about playing game two in Air Canada Center? I'm not always a huge believer in momentum carrying over from game to game in a playoff series because I think there's a lot of evidence that that's actually not true. But there's certain moments where I actually do believe it. And what you talked about where you can feel the game move in the arena, the most glaring example I can ever remember that is the Clippers-Houston game when the Clippers choked away that hugely to Josh Smith and Corey Brewer.

Remember that? They were about to clinch Harden's on the bench. And even the Rockets were down eight and I thought they were going to win. The crowd was petrified, horrified. There was this sense of incoming doom that you could just feel. I've never, even at Red Sox games, I've never felt anything as profound as that. And I do think like with this Toronto thing, they've hit the point now

where they're actually going to need like a miracle win at home where like everybody loses all faith whatsoever. And then they hit two threes in the last 20 seconds and pull a game out of their ass. And then people start believing again. I think LeBron goes into these Toronto games down. He's like, I own this team. Could you feel that last night? Like just LeBron's confidence that he was going to pull it out. Well, in the first half, he was kind of, it wasn't, it just wasn't going well. But as soon as Tristan, the first half, he just wasn't going well.

But as soon as Tristan, the game changed. It was a 10-point game midway through the third quarter. Kevin Love was experiencing one of the worst 20 minutes I've ever seen a good player play. I do not understand why he could not make a two-footer. In fact, in the first quarter last night, he took a 70-footer and he took a two-footer. He took both. I can't believe he was closer to making the 70-footer at the end of the quarter where he just threw it up. The ball almost went in,

and that had a better chance of going into the two-footer he had like three minutes before. When they took Kevin Love out of the game, there was a guy, somebody was on the line, and the guy made both free throws game the it was when there was a guy somebody's on the line and the guy made both free throws and it was a 10 point game that's when tristan came in the game from then on to the end of the quarter the cab lebron what took took some rest on the bench and the cabs cut the lead from 10 to 5 and you wouldn't say oh oh my God, what a massive swing. This is what I'm talking about. There's a thing that just happens in playoff games,

especially when you have experienced teams. So they start the fourth quarter, and the Raptors have been great at home in the fourth quarter, all season long. This is one of the things that they did this year that was so impressive. The reason why game one was here in Toronto last night was because this team was a closing team all year long. But LeBron didn't care about that. He comes to the court to start the fourth quarter with six minutes rest in the game.

He had gotten six minutes rest. That's the most he's had almost all playoffs. And now it's a five-point game with a rest of LeBron. And I think in that moment, I think they were like, okay, I think we got a chance to win this game. Now, again, Van Vliet could have hit that shot. And then we're talking about how Ujied and Obi did a good job against LeBron, which he did, and storylines are different.

But the thing about it is the Raptors are 30-1. I think it was 30-1 at home this year when they're leading going into the fourth quarter. 30-1. So this is a situation where you're looking at, you know, I think you said it was minus 160. I would love to know what the live in-game is going to tell me a lot about what the better thing is. And going into overtime, Toronto was favored by two and a half points, which I was flabbergasted by. I don't know why anyone would bet against him. That's just stupid. The way the game was going, that was all Cavs.

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is to visit proflowers.com. Click on the blue microphone in the upper right corner. Use my code BS. That's proflowers.com. Code BS. Back to Wendy. I thought in 09, his first monster year when he lost to Orlando.

But that whole year, he really put it together and athletically was really starting to film He won the first MVP. Yeah. And athletically was just starting to put it all together just as a night-to-night beast. A little like what Davis did the last three and a half months. And then I think, you know, 2013, the year after Miami won the year of the streak, when he came out and he was shooting like 60% for the first two months, it seemed like he jumped the level. And maybe there was another point during one of the Cleveland finals, the first year when everybody was hurt. I don't know. But this version of LeBron,

who just seems like he's in the greatest shape he's ever been in. I can't remember him logging this kind of workload and playing this many minutes and just never seeming tired or tapped. This is a whole new version of LeBron. Is this the best you've seen him play or would you pick another version? Well, peak, peak, you identified. I know that you have a good memory, but this is impressive to me. During that, you exactly identified where I thought LeBron was absolutely at the absolute tip of the apex of his career. During that 27-game win streak, if you want to go back, now remember, the game is a little bit different even now than it

was then because the pace of the game was a little slower. So even if you look at some of the stats now, it's not even really comparable to only five years ago. But if you look at that stretch, when they win 27 games in a row, he had six consecutive games where he shot better than 60% from the field, and he scored more than 30 points. That was in a game with Wade and Bosh. And then he barely missed it. He shot like 57%. But I think he had a triple-double and might get the game winner that game.

That was the only stretch where I felt like, you know, and I saw it happen with Bird too when we were watching Bird in the mid-80s where he had hit this level where he was actually kind of fucking around during games. He was so good. He's like, I'm going to try this for a quarter. I'm going to try this for a half. And I had Bosh on a podcast like eight weeks ago,

and that's what he picked too. He said that was, I've never seen anybody play basketball like what LeBron was like during that streak. So anyway, I've never seen anybody play basketball like what LeBron was like during that streak. So, anyway, I interrupted you. Go ahead. I felt like during the 2015 finals, where they got ahead 2-1, kind of before the war. Well, Deleva Dova literally played himself to exhaustion. He got sent to the hospital after 3-3.

Because his whole body, he couldn't get out of the cold tub. They had to summon people into the room to lift him out of the cold tub because his entire body went to a cramp. That hurt because Della Vadova was giving Curry a little bit of problem. But when he had the – now, he was playing terrible basketball. He was shooting like 35 shots to score like 44 points. Yeah. But in a way it was kind of a mastery of the game.

It was reminiscent of what, what Jordan kind of had to do in that Utah series in 98. What, when, when Pippen was hurt and Rodman was on his way out of the league and he just basically was like, all right, I have to figure out how to control every minute of this game, save my tank, pick my spots. That's why I feel like that was kind of the third level of LeBron. I don't think he would have been able to do that six years before. And now this version, there's a confidence and kind of an arrogance now with him

in the last couple couple minutes of a game that I'm not positive he's ever had in his career. Especially like game five Indy. I think he really was like, I'm winning this game. Think, oh my God, they gave me three seconds left. I'm going to that spot and scoring. And that was always the rub on him. Remember that he always made the right basketball play. Oh, he didn't take the winning shot. Oh, he's still not that clutch. And we would all pick him apart. And now I think there's an arrogance slash confidence with him.

If you leave him an opening in a game, no matter what kind of team he has, he's going to win it. Like he takes it personally. Oh, really? Oh, you're going to give me, I'm down one with three seconds left. You're going to be the ball.

I'm closing this. And I don't know. It's been really fun to watch. He's got his 10,000 hours of playoff basketball. Yeah, I think you're right. Because he was never this confident. Because early in his career, or earlier in his career, I guess not early, early. But remember, there were a lot of times where we didn't know if he was going to play well in a playoff game.

You know, there were, you know, he had some duds in there. Primarily being the 2000, he obviously had some, a bad game or two in the 2010 playoffs. Well, 11, 11 was the nadir. We were both in the arena for that. When JJ Barea guarding him on the low post and stuff and he's chewing his nails. It really seemed like he was melting down. I'll never forget watching that. I'm never going to take that. He's got 875

consecutive games in double figures. That's a regular season stat. Because in the 2011 finals, game 5, 2-2 series, he had 8 points. Yeah. Wade was playing his ass off. Wade was yelling at him.

And looking over at him going, what are you doing, boss? Yeah, Wade was like challenging his manhood in game three and game four. Like, where are you? He was screaming at him. He just, I think he had starting from the meltdown, the previous playoffs and the decision and all the attention and being the villain for the first time, it really seemed like that's the one time he kind of caved. I never see that happening again. Yeah, there was a time.

And he was kind of being an ass. Because remember he and Dwayne were making fun of Dirk saying that he wasn't sick? Yeah. Like sniffing. Dirk was up there. That was a mistake. First off, Dirk Nowitzki is not, I mean,

you want to make, there's certain guys you can make, like you want to make fun of Lance Stevens, but no one's going to stop you. Yeah. Dirk Nowitzki is beyond reproach. Dirk was up there on the, uh,

doing this interview after the game. He was so cold. He was basically wearing a parka. Yeah. It was, it was, uh, it was,

it was June in Dallas was 109 outside. He was shivering. He was just being a, he was just being a dick to was 109 outside. He was shivering. He was just being a dick, to be honest with you. But now LeBron doesn't have that playoff game. Like he said last night, this was one of my worst games of the year. I don't know if that's accurate, but it certainly was his worst playoff game. He had triple doubles.

He had triple doubles. He doesn't have bad games anymore. Yeah, he's been able to match all the different things that he's had at the different points of his career into whatever package now. Like, physically, he's so imposing. You know, he really can... It feels like he can get to the rim and at least either get fouled or get fouled and they won't call it every single time.

He's just picking his spots with that. And outside shooting is probably the most consistent it's ever been. This is also probably the worst team he's had, I would say, since, what do you think, 09? It's the worst. No, that 09, however much you want to criticize, I don't mean you, but people criticize

those 07, 08, 09 Cavs teams, and certainly they were weaker based on the teams he's had for the last half decade. 10? Those guys defended. True. I mean, they were the number one defense. Yeah, it was ugly, and they won game 70. You remember the 2000? This is where we've come in the NBA, the 2007 finals, game three,

the Ginobili and Parker carry the Spurs. You remember 75-72 was the final score of that game. Oh my God, I remember. In LeBron's first final. Yeah. 75-72. Last night, the game was 87-82 after three quarters. So it's a different time, but those teams defended.

Yeah, this is the worst, I think, talent-wise, depth-wise, playoff team he's been on. Well, especially... Hold on. Let's take a quick break. Hey, let's talk about ProperCloth.com. Every guy knows that it's hard to find a dress shirt that fits. Collar too tight, sleeves too long, shirts too loose.

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I don't know what's happening, Kevin Love. And I don't know who gets blamed for this. And I don't know if getting traded to LeBron's team at the specific point of his career was the worst thing that could happen to him. I don't know whether he's a great stats, bad team guy but I'm not sure what he is right now

and he's too young to kind of crater off like he has. What is going on with him? So I'm going to give Kevin credit. It's hard to play with LeBron. You're either kind of meant for it or you're not. And Kyrie had opt out. And it's really an interesting

moment in history. Now Kyrie has ended up landing in a perfect spot for him. I don't think it could have worked out better, but he could have gotten sent somewhere else where he would have been in an abyss. When you ask for a trade, you have multiple years on your contract, you don't have a no-trade clause. I don't want to take a shot at the Phoenix organization,

but he very well could end up in Phoenix. But I think that was going to happen, and I think him and his agents were basically, I think it was Phoenix and Denver were the two. And him and his agent, once he got a sniff of Boston, he cock-blocked it. He's just like, if you trade for me, I'm not staying there when I'm a free agent.

So good luck. That's correct. That's correct. But they still, with two years left on his deal, they probably would have been able to roll the dice. I could have seen them roll the dice. I think Denver should have. I think Denver made a mistake.

I think they should have just rolled the dice. I think Denver, the Cavs really wanted Paul George in that deal. And if the Cavs didn't get Paul, the real deal that could have been done that wasn't done was the Pacers were willing to trade Paul George for Kyrie Irving straight up. The Cavs weren't trying to do that deal. But the Pacers would have done that deal. In fact, I think they asked on multiple occasions, let's not involve Phoenix, let's not involve Denver, let's just do business straight with Kyrie.

This would be Ford-Kyrie straight demand. Yeah. And it's one of those things with timing. If the Pacers had just waited, it might have been different. But obviously the Pacers feel great about it. They have no regrets. Not only do they love Oladipo, he's a two-way player, and he's under contract for less than the max for the next three years.

The Pacers have no regrets. But getting back to Love, Kyrie opted out of what Love is dealing with. Love deals with the persecution of being a LeBron teammate, of being blamed, of dealing with his social media undercutting, of being the fall guy, as he's called himself. There have been so many nights where Kevin has walked, and we already know, he's already talked about how he battles emotional issues and mental issues. There have been so many days and so many nights where Kevin Love has walked out of a building feeling beleaguered and beaten down, either directly because of LeBron or because of

LeBron, or indirectly or directly, I should say. And I have to give Kevin a real major hat tip, being a professional and being adult about it. He has always seen the big picture. He has never, at least publicly and privately, when I've talked to him, and I haven't talked to him a lot, but he has always maintained that this is all worth it. That playing in these late game situations, I mean, as the guy who played for six years or whatever it was, never skipped the playoffs,

he's like, this is where I'm at right now. This is the charge for playing with him. And, you know, this happens with, you know, this happens with LeBron teammates. Like, you know, Shumpert was on with Rachel on the jump last week, and he was talking about how LeBron is amazingly inclusive off the court, but on the court sometimes tends to not be so inclusive. And it was a very honest statement from Shumpert. I appreciate him saying, at the same time, Shumpert has a ring and a $40 million contract because of LeBron.

Right. And so, you know, and Kyrie has a ring because of LeBron. Now, he doesn't have a max ring because of LeBron now he doesn't have his max contract because of LeBron but he's got a ring because of him and now maybe he'll go win another one and he'll be the guy maybe that's what will indeed happen

but isn't that the difference like you comparing great players the all-timers Jordan LeBron people in that. Kobe, I think, is like this too, where the good teammates kind of had to fit in with how they played basketball.

And whereas like Bird and Magic, and I think Ben Simmons is going to be like this. Those were guys that made everybody better. And it's like, give me something, give me somebody who's a B plus and I will make them an A. Give me somebody who's a C plus, I'll make them a B plus. LeBron, it's gone either way over the course of his career. And I think everybody who's succeeded with him has ended up sacrificing a piece of themselves for it. I think Bosh is the best example of that. Bosh was absolutely the perfect third wheel and figured out how to acclimate his game.

But that could have gone horribly. With Love, it's been up and down. I remember seeing Love at a Knicks game the year after they won. So it was like maybe six months later. And I've known him for a long time. And I was just like, oh, man, did you ever think like if you lose that finals, you're probably not on the team? And he's like, oh, they would have ever think like if you lose that finals, you're probably not on the team? And he's like, oh, they would have traded me.

Like he knew, they all knew like he was going to be the fall guy if they lost that year. And he's probably going to be the fall guy if they lose this year. I think it's a tough spot for him. And by the way, like if LeBron leaves the free agency, they're going to trade him. And he knows that. Like he's a real one. And there are moments where you're like, my God, is he being mentally or physically soft? And okay, that's his burden, I guess. But again, I give him credit for pulling up his pants, quite frankly.

Like Kobe used to say to Paul Gasol, put on your big boy pants. Whatever you want to say about it, he has done that. And I actually, I admire Chris Bosh so much. I can't, I don't know if I could speak more highly of anybody I've ever covered other than Chris Bosh. Yeah, one of the great teammates. For the way he was able to handle that whole situation. And I speak very highly, you know, Love is not as good as Bosh, but

I speak just as highly of love's ability to manage a situation. This is 2010 we had this, 2014 and now you're feeling it again this year. It's almost like every four years, like the Olympics. The

exit plan is just hanging over everything. There's been rumors dating back to before last finals about LA and now Philly, really since the All-Star break, Philly has been the big rumor. There's Houston, all these different places where LeBron might go. You've talked about this on every show you've been on. I don't want to ask you, what do you think is going to happen?

Because nobody knows what's going to happen. But having watched him deal with this kind of subplot now three times, what's different about 18 versus 14 and 10 in terms of this might be the last run? Who the fuck knows? There's two major differences. Number one, everybody around him is openly talking about it like everybody on the team knows like like kyle corver knows if he walks he's probably getting traded love knows if he walks he's getting traded you know i don't know what tyron tyron lewis thinking you know there's a possibility there'd be a coaching change because the calves completely go a different direction

um it's openly being discussed in, that team won 60 games, went 8-0 in the first two rounds. Or, I mean, went 4-1 the first round. They won game one of the Celtics series, and LeBron won the MVP before game two. Nobody was sitting there going, he's out of here. It all went south in a week.

It wasn't until game five. Game five was when everybody was like, wait, that was weird. Uh-oh. What's going on here? And then in 48 hours, it was over. It was like, wait, that was weird. Uh-oh, what's going on here? And then in 48 hours, it was over. It was like, wait a minute. Same with Miami. Remember, Miami's won one. Granted, that organization was gassed, but they were younger.

Bosh and LeBron had years in their prime left. Wade was definitely decaying. But it was 1-1. They were going home in the finals. But I remember being on TV before Game 5 and it was either before or at halftime and I was like, this might be

LeBron's last home game ever for Miami. People thought I was a lunatic. But if you were there at the finals, it was a big topic. And people were like, could he? It wasn't a big topic for a couple of months leading up. Everybody on the roster wasn't talking about it when LeBron wasn't around. And that's what's happening right now.

And everybody in the organization, I mean, the Cavs are actively getting a plan together post-LeBron. That's what the whole Kyrie trade was about. It was a post-LeBron trade. Yeah. was about. It was a post-LeBron trade. But the other way it's different, Bill, is that LeBron doesn't have a real clear path on where to go.

To be honest with you, today I don't love any of his options. I don't either. This is what I wrote about in February. I don't know what the move is. Now, things could happen. Kawhi could get moved around. Paul George and he could get together, etc.

But I don't... I'm not in love with any of them. Well, don't you agree if Philly makes the finals, which I think is still the safest bet, I don't see how... If I'm them, I don't see how I go, let's bring LeBron into this. I don't want to mess with that at that point. If they lose to Boston, I think it's way more realistic. But, you know, I just-

Well, if you're Philly and you have the ammunition to trade for Kawhi or- Or Paul George or whoever. Yeah. Or sign Paul George. Yeah. They're signing trade situations. They don't have the cap space, but they could make it happen for LeBron.

But they have the firepower to make a big trade, too, because they have assets. Yep. Philly is an interesting spot, but I agree. It doesn't sit like a glove. Are we going to feel stupid when he's on the Lakers in three months?

Do you love that situation? Well, all the signs have pointed there for 14 months. I made this case four months ago, and I'm just going to repeat it. I think it's the move that you make if you're him and you're thinking about this in terms of chapters of a career where it's like through 10 in Cleveland, the Miami is the second chapter,

coming back home, winning titles, the third chapter. And then the final chapter is I'm going to LA. I want to become a billionaire. I want to learn from Magic Johnson. All my businesses are there. And you just blow it out that way. And there's a lot of signs that that's the way he's thinking. Well, I think it could be as sort of as simple as this.

It's the last act of his career and he just wants to be happy. Yeah, I agree. You know, one of the things that's important here, remember, he's got a 13-year-old and his other son's about to turn 11. His daughter's a little young yet. Those kids get a voice this time. He's going to go to them and say, hey, what do you guys want to do? I mean, he's a kid who has spent their lives living between Miami, Cleveland, and L.A.

They live in L.A. in the summer. And if his sons are like, hey, we love our friends and we want to stay here, that may be a factor. And if his kids are like, hey, it would be awesome to be in L.A. We love our house in Brentwood. We can go swimming in February. Maybe that's a factor. Maybe it's not about – I mean, I know that winning is important to him, and whatever teams he's on will win. But maybe it's just like, hey, my family and I kind of want to – he's going to live in L.A. when he's done anyway, at least for most of the year or part of the year or whatever.

He may just be like, hey, I want to be happy. I want to be happy. And you know what? The Cavs need to move on. And that could be his reasoning. It could come down to just, you know what, I just want to have some fun my last couple of years here. And we'll try our best to win. And I'll fight the good fight against the Warriors and the the rockets and whatever that may be what he comes down to

i don't know what it's going to be but it it may come down to kind of what his family feels because i don't from a basketball standpoint a lot of things are going to happen but from a basketball standpoint i don't see a great fit i mean you say last couple years the the kind of shape he's in and all the stuff he's done to his body day after day and those workouts that he's doing. It might be a Tom Brady thing. I thought Tom Brady was going to be done by now. And it's like, yeah, Tom Brady's 41. He's coming back.

There he is. Oh, he's on Instagram. He looks great. Looks like Tom Brady. Could he play till 45? I don't know. Maybe LeBron could. His back getting fixed. Because a couple of years ago, he was having pretty significant back issues.

His back getting fixed was a game changer. And now I think it brings in his concept of his dream of playing with his son when he's 38. I don't know if his son's going to be ready when his son's 19 or 18. A Griffey Jr. thing. I wish there was a way to bet on that. I would put a thousand dollars that LeBron and his son will play together at some point in their lives. I think it's more realistic than the ball brothers. You know, you know, Ken Griffey Jr. was at his first ever game. Really? And so his guy at Nike, Lynn Merritt, who's one of the most powerful people in basketball,

Lynn Merritt, like before he LeBron's spiritual guru in Beaverton, he was Ken Griffey Jr.'s spiritual guru. LeBron met Ken Griffey when he was 18, and they have this connection, Lynn Merritt. Lynn Merritt's the most powerful person in basketball that nobody knows.

The biggest game of LeBron's career, Game 6, 2012, Boston. He had two people sitting courtside, Lynn Merritt and Worldwide West. And that was his family for that game. And those were the guys he looked at. And those were the guys that were kind of trying to carry him that game. Remember that?

He was looking over to them and fist pumping and all that stuff. Lynn is a very, very important figure. And there's only really five or six people who LeBron has trusted. Yeah. And have had a big role. Lynn is, Lynn is one of those men. Hey,

Brian, we got to take a quick break. The captain, Captain Morgan, he will not rest until he's brought his adventurous spirit and delicious rum to every corner of America. Original spice, coconut,

pineapple, white, black grapefruit, whatever you want. The captain loves anyone who learns to every corner of America. Original spice, coconut, pineapple, white, black grapefruit, whatever you want. The captain loves anyone who learns to mix like a captain. We're picking a captain every week during the NBA playoffs. So we're about, we're eight games in. Who's your captain? Who's your guy for the playoffs right now?

Who would you, let's remove LeBron. Let's make it a non-LeBron captain. Who is your guy? Who has stood out for you during these playoffs so far? You're going to love this answer. Terry Rozier. Scary Terry! I love him showing up in a Drew Bledsoe jersey. It would have been amazing

if he did it for Game 7, but okay. I respect he's got to stay in line. But how much money is that guy going to get paid this fall? What would you do there? Well, it's really fascinating because they're going to have to pick between him and Smart. And it's kind of the elephant in the room. There's really no reason to pay both of those guys,

especially when you have Kyrie and Jalen and Tatum and Hayward and Horford. I mean, they could pay both of them and then figure out what to do, but it doesn't make a ton of sense to me. And I do think he's becoming an above average starting point guard, knock on wood. But there was really no signs of this until this season. And even this season, there were really no signs that he could go in a playoff game and be like one of the dominant guys in a game seven. It goes back to my theory though, which I've had for years. And sometimes it just applies to certain guys. Some guys aren't meant to come off the bench.

Some guys aren't meant to play eight minutes a half and succeed. I think Kyle Korver is somebody that can come into a game for nine minutes in the first half and he's immediately at the level he needs to be at. Other guys need to just be out there and play 35, 38 minutes and feel the flow of the game and have the ebbs and flows of it and just get a confidence from it. And I think he's one of those guys. Can you remember, like, has there been a LeBron teammate like that, that you just felt like was better as a starter than a bench guy?

It's a good, I like your theory. I'm feeling you on it. I have to think about it. Mario Chalmers, maybe. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. You, that's a good one. You might be right on that. Uh, Chalmers was a great player next to LeBron because he, he couldn't be, he was impervious to being beaten down. Like he, like love gets beaten down at times. Like Mario's ego is so enormous that it cannot be bad.

So it was perfect. Number one, he can shoot can shoot number two he can defend and number three when lebron screamed and yelled at him and made fun of him and mocked him and blamed him it didn't bother him yeah perfect perfect teammate for lebron but they don't have to sign roger this fall he's not a free agent but i would i would uh want to extend them because he's a guy that some team could try to poach. And let's be honest, the Celtics have got to watch their payroll. The one thing I'll say is if they ever do harbor a dream of trading for Kawhi or trading for Anthony Davis, and who knows,

maybe they're going to win this series, maybe they're going to win the East, and they've got Hayward and Kyrie coming back, and maybe they don't need that player. But they don't have the contracts right now to execute the trade. And what I mean by that is everybody on their roster either makes max or is on their rookie deal. They don't have a mid-tier player. I was talking to an executive, and they were like, they kind of got to sign Marcus Smart, not only because he's important to them.

They need a mid-tier contract they could use in a trade if they want to go for their big fish in the next year. Yeah, and that's the case for signing Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier in the $8 million to $10 million ranges now. Give some tradable pieces. That's what never made sense about the Anthony Davis rumors. The only way to do that was to basically, yeah, to put Horford in the deal, plus Jason Tatum, plus picks. And I'm not saying they wouldn't have done it, but it just wasn't as easy as people seem to think. Anyway, we'll make, so yeah, Terry Rozier, congratulations. You're the

captain this week. Don't forget to check out Captain Morgan. He will not rest until he's brought his adventurous spirit, delicious rum to every corner of America. I think one of the interesting things for me with this playoffs has been that the Anthony Davis trade rumor machine, which was going to be one of the dominant things of this summer, Boogie gets hurt. They missed the playoffs. Where's Anthony Davis going? I think that even LeBron would have been the 1A. Where's LeBron going? I think where's Anthony Davis going would have been 1B, and where's Kawhi going would have been 1C. And now I don't see any way Davis leaves. I think he ends up staying there.

I think they re-sign Boogie. And at the very least, this goes for 12 more months. Am I wrong? I think we don't have a most improved GM award, but how about most improved GM for Dell Demps? Yeah. Fix his neck out on Drew Holiday's contract. Okay.

Which seemed insane. And Drew Holiday has been awesome. And the mid season mirror pitch trade, what a great trade that was awesome. Shaved their season. I mean, I know that. And,

and dumped a contract, dump, dump the Asha contract, which was, was a pill for them for this year. Next year. A, what a great battlefield maneuver that was. So I thought Del Demps,

after really having a rough summer the year before, I thought Del Demps with tremendous, and really the whole front office. I mean, you know, he would, you know, I've talked to Del, he would be the first to credit Alvin Gentry. He doesn front office i mean you know he would you know i've talked to dell he would be the first to credit alvin gentry he doesn't want any you know he's at the i went to the the pelicans first playoff game it was five minutes before tip off and i ran into dell uh literally on the court in portland and dell was trying to sell me on voting for alvin gentry for coach of the year this is before he he sweeps out the Blazers.

And I go, Dell, that's all great, but the vote went in yesterday. Sorry, Dell. Dell would be the first to give credit elsewhere, but he made some gutsy, even the boogie move was a gutsy move. He's made some gutsy moves, and I know that they're struggling. They're playing against a historically great team, but you're right. He's taken the press. He has removed the pressure and bought himself time with Anthony Davis. And that was no easy feat considering the hand that he was looking at. And he signed Rondo too, which, you know,

was a, seemed like a throwaway move at the time and And now that has become one of the bigger reasons. They needed to probably win Game 2 last night to have a realistic upset chance in this series. I just don't think there's any way. They needed Curry to be a dud in his return game. That's what they needed. And they needed some calls, which they didn't get. Speaking of calls, real quick.

I know it was the right call. But Ibaka getting that call on LeBron, that was an interesting moment for the folks who think LeBron never gets the bad end of the whistle. Yeah, that's true. He still gets a lot of calls. I'm fine with it, by the way, because it's like the old Chris Rock joke about the dad getting the biggest piece of chicken when he comes home from dinner.

Right. When you're the best player in the league, you should get the most calls. It's just the way it goes. It's frustrating as hell when he's playing your team. There were moments in that Indiana series when he was flying around like a middle linebacker, just crashing into people. And it'd be like, there's LeBron James's first foul. It's like, wow, he's committed 30. And they really, they could call an offensive foul on him.

They could pretty much call whatever they wanted. And Shaq was like this and Will Chamberlain was like this. Those are the three guys in the course of history where it's like, how do you even officiate this? He's putting his head down. He's going to the rim. He's stronger than everybody else. He's bouncing off people. He's, he can shove people off very carefully and almost imperceptibly. And they go flying backwards three feet. How do you referee it?

It's impossible. I know the moment, one of my favorite moments of the playoffs so far was when Lance flopped on him and he got called for the foul and Lance just laid there on his back, spread eagle, and looked up with that look on his face. Yeah. I still can't believe

at the end of the day. Well, I still can't believe that Indiana didn't win that series. And we've seen a million playoff series like that. And even in game seven, it was like, Indiana's better, but LeBron's going to win. You just knew. But I think that game four, game five stretch, if they never get really close with this nucleus again,

is going to haunt them. Game four was, I think LeBron, the writing was on the wall in LeBron's head in that game. That if it went a certain way, it's like, oh man, we're done. And Korver made a couple crazy threes. I mean, he made one three. He does this before. He's done this in the course of his career,

but those threes when he's coming off screens, going on a clock at the three o'clock angle, he's falling to the right and somehow can set his body for a split second and shoot a 26 foot shot. Him and JJ Redick are the only two guys in the league who can do that. And he just made a couple of those

right when they needed them and right when it felt like Indiana was going to get that game. And I don't know. This is what I love about the playoffs is that sometimes you just have these moments and everything shifts. Boston and Philly. I think Boston could have gotten swept if they lose game one.

Now they win game one. Now there's a three day break. They did a bunch of things in that game one. That's going to get into the Sixers heads. They took away threes. They've been good at taking away the, the, the closing out on threes all year. And I think they had the best opposing three-point field goal percentage in the league. They were able to get back on D. And I was talking to my dad this morning. He was saying playing Giannis for seven games has really helped Boston in this series because they know now what to do on these Ben

Simmons fast breaks. They know how to build a wall. They know how to just throw bodies in front of them. And Philly is going to have to really dig deep a little bit to win one of these games in Boston. I think they have more talent, but they're going to have to come up with an extra wrinkle. I think it's going to be Ben Simmons in the low post. They went to it twice. It worked both times. I don't see any real way Boston's going to slow that down. But I think Boston has a chance.

What did you, did you see that game? What do you think? I didn't, I was traveling. I just, I just missed it. I mean, I read a lot about it. I definitely noticed the three point numbers and that's a huge factor for Philly. I, this, you know, you, you brushed up

against the Tex winner line, which I can't say any better. Everything turns on a trifle. It's just so true. The games are so fragile. Those two Corver three-pointers saved the Cavs' season because not only did they get him a position for the game, they reignited LeBron in that game.

Again, I don't know why you ever would. You can just take my word on it. If you go watch the way LeBron was behaving before those two threes and behaving after it was a major difference and the same thing um you know distilly hadn't faced any adversity really i mean you know over the last five years they have but like they are on this magical carpet ride for the last six weeks of the season um you know they played quality basketball. I was really impressed with the way they just wrestled the heat into a sleeper hold in the fourth quarter of all those games because the Heat are known for playing everybody close.

Right. But they basically haven't had any adversity. I mean, like this game, they get Boston coming off game seven and Jalen Brown gets hurt. Like everything was going their way. So in a way, I'm actually kind of glad. And I think they off game seven, and Jalen Brown gets hurt. Everything was going their way. In a way, I'm actually kind of glad, and I think they should be glad, too, that they're facing some adversity. Let's see how they respond to it. Brett Brown is a good

coach. He will make some adjustments, and maybe it is Simmons in the post. I'm glad to see the Sixers face a little adversity. They were having a little bit too much fun in Philly. They needed to calm down a bit. Well, the one thing he won't do again, I would assume, is putting J.J. Redick on Jason Tatum.

Even as that was happening in the moment, I was like, wow, this is really stupid. Jason Tatum's going to torture him. By the way, the ringer is J.J. Redick. No offense, J.J. Don't really think one of your skills should be guarding the gigantic long- arm Jason Tatum. But I feel the same way as you. I think things were going so well for Philly.

I thought Boston was going to lose and I still think they're going to lose. But that day, the odds, Philly was like minus 530 to win that series by the time by tip off that the Celtics were four to one underdogs in game one, they were five point underdogs and everybody just had Philly penciled into the finals. And I even did the tweet. I did the, nobody believes in us tweet with the Eagles from, cause it's basically the same thing happened with the Eagles after Carson Wentz got hurt. And I was like, man, we've seen this happen in sports. The one team thinks they're heading to the finals and it's all hunky-dory and here we go. And they don't see the haymaker coming.

And then you have the other team. Nobody believes in them. Guys like Terry Rozier who have just been discounted. And meanwhile, Boston has home court advantage and they have the best coach in the league. They have a great atmosphere there. It's really a crappy building. The Philly building?

No, the Boston building. Oh! It's a crappy building. It was built in the mid-90s when we didn't really know any better yet. But the crowd is great. And I don't know the PA announcer's name. I should.

I've been to 75 playoff games there. Yeah. He is awesome. Like, there's just something when the crowd is so into it. The crowd saves the building. The building has no character, but the crowd is so into it. The crowd saves the building. The building has no character, but the crowd is so good. And the Celtics do so many good things

like they're heroes among us. And Gino back in the days. And when like, the announcer just is so perfect. It's just the perfect Boston accent. And, you know, back in the days, Rajon Rondo.

It's an intimidating place to play, even if you are the better team. It's a great home court. Here's the thing. The crowd in Toronto is a great crowd. But for some reason, it's not that intimidating of a place to play. I talked to Paul Pierce about this. Paul Pierce is persona non grata. They hate him here in Toronto

because he is, you know, but he said that to me. He's like, listen, their crowd is amazing. He goes, it doesn't even do justice on TV, but it's not an intimidating place to play. And it's a great building. The design of the building and the nature of the building is awesome. And yet, for some reason,

it's not as intimidating. I can't put my finger on it. Like I know why it's intimidating to play in Utah because it's a basketball only facility. And the, the rate of the, you know, the angle of the seating,

they don't have port side seats, so they don't have to like spread those seats back out. All the seating is the stands come down to the second row and the fans are, the angle is much different. It feels tight. It feels like a college arena in there. I understand that. I understand why it's intimidating to play in Oakland. The building

was built in the 60s. You could fit the entire structure of the, you could put all four walls on the outside of the Oracle Arena and drop it inside just the bowl in the United Center. That's how small of a building it is. I get why those two buildings are tough to play in.

But for some reason, Boston in that playoff environment is a tough place to play. And if you've played 70 playoff games there like LeBron has, maybe you're not so worried about it. But if you're in that environment for the first time, I don't care if you play there during the regular season. It's different. And I think the Celtics definitely probably took advantage of that for sure.

And Philly was coming off. They had some confidence from beating Miami in round one. You know, listen, the Miami fans are going to get mad. I'm just going to be honest. Not an intimidating place to play. And especially, it's just different. It's going into Miami versus going to Boston. It's just different. It's going into Miami versus going to Boston. It's no contest.

And I think this was the first time they had a crowd that was really going against them. You know, the biggest game Simmons and Embiid have played this whole year was the Friday night game at home against Cleveland during the regular season, national TV. Right. It's just kind of a game. And they passed a checkpoint. They passed a checkpoint winning that Miami series. This is a different kind of a game. And they passed a checkpoint. They passed a checkpoint winning that Miami series. This is a different kind of checkpoint. We are the best team in the series. We have the most talent. We have the most talent in the East. The seas have parted for us to make the finals

well before anybody thought we could. There's historical precedent with this, as we talked about on this podcast before, 77 Blazers, 86 Rockets, 95 Magic, 2012 Thunder. We've seen this, but now you actually have to go, you have to win on the other team's court in a really tough place to play against a great coach. And you're going to find out a lot about yourself. I think this game too, three days to think about it, and they're going to have to come up with some wrinkles and Ben Simmons is going to have to come up with some wrinkles and Ben Simmons is going to have to be the best part on the court. It's not Embiid.

To me, this is Ben Simmons has to win game two. Embiid, if he gets his 30 and they post him up, if you noticed in game one, you didn't see it, but when they posted up Embiid, he was getting good shots. He was scoring. He seemed unstoppable. But everybody else just stands around and watches. When it's running through Simmons, everything opens up. Guys are moving. He's hitting threes. Everybody on the court is a threat.

And they're just more dangerous. And I think he's the one that's going to win. What do you see for – you've seen a lot of these dudes this century. Where would you put his ceiling for you? I watched, I've been spending a lot of time with Michael Wilbon recently watching game. He's been at some of the cues at some of the Cavs Pacer games. By the way, no better,

no better wingman to watch games with the Michael Wilbon. It's amazing. First off, it's amazing. It's just like, he sees stuff. he sees a lot of basketball and uh like i don't want to speak for him uh because he has his own content to deliver but um he thinks lebron would be crazy and philly would be crazy to have to go to that team he's like why would you why would you, why would you get in the way of the next Irvin Johnson?

Yeah. I, I, I said this on a podcast, uh, a couple of days, uh, with house. I, I don't think he should go there. And I, and if I'm Philly, I'm not messing with Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons has a chance to be one of the best 20 players of all time. I'm not messing with that. I'm not bringing LeBron in the last stage of his career to then have the ball half the time. I want guys who can play with Ben Simmons and I want him to reach his potential. And then if Embiid can stay healthy and reach whatever potential he has, now I'm dominating

the league for 12 years. But they do need one more major piece, in my opinion. Yeah, but it's a Paul George Kawhi type piece. I don't think it's a LeBron piece. Paul George would be amazing there, I think. Especially because I think Paul, if he could be the third guy, I think he

could really thrive. The sign and trade rules, really, it's not like a Chris Paul thing where he could opt into another year and then they could sign and trade. Like it's, it's basically they have to create the cap space, which would mean they'd have to dump Redick and Bellinelli, Amir Johnson,

I think they'd have to renounce at least a couple of those guys to make the room. Yeah. The real move, the real move for them to make would be to have, I mean, this is,

this is if they wanted LeBron. Okay. Cause LeBron has the Chris Paul option. Yeah. Would be for LeBron to opt in and then they trade for him. LeBron's opt in is June 29th. Would be they trade for him before theBron's opt-in is June 29th. It would be they trade for him before the end of this league year.

Oh, in June. Like Chris Paul. Exactly. But LeBron makes $33 million. You'd have to send some real pieces over there. It may cost you Robert Covington. I'm okay with that. Twist my arm. over there. Like, it may cost you Robert Covington. You know, you basically will be like,

I'm okay with that. Okay, so like, it would be a trade like this. It would be a trade like this. Because if I'm the Cavs, I probably ask for, I would probably ask

for the 10th pick. Yes. Sarge. I'd want Sarge. I'd want Covington. I'd want, I'd want those Euro dudes they've stashed.

I'd want a bunch of stuff. Or they, or maybe Fultz. Maybe, want a bunch of stuff. Or maybe Fultz. Maybe you can sell the Cavs on Fultz. And the Cavs say, okay, we have this Brooklyn pick plus Fultz plus Covington. That's a way to get it done. And the reason that would make some sense is because now you become a non-space team. And now you have rights on Redick and you have rights on Reddick and you have rights on Amir Johnson, and you can keep them, and you still have your exceptions you can go

out there and do. Like, that's the way—I mean, again, we're debating about whether LeBron would even sit there, but if Philly wants to completely go all in for—but the challenge of that is, you know, Philly's not allowed to talk to LeBron. That would be tampering, right? So how do you get LeBron to want to come to Philly? Well, Ben Simmons is represented by the same

agent. So we really come down to whether Ben Simmons wants to play with him. But Ben Simmons can call LeBron up 10 minutes after their collective seasons are over and negotiate. It's just like James Harden did with Chris Paul. It's maddening for the team, but it's not against the rules per se.

First of all, the funniest moment of this entire podcast when you said Philly's not allowed to talk to him. That was hilarious. I wish we had had one of those 70s sitcom laugh tracks. Like Philly hasn't talked to him a hundred times already. Give me a break. Second of all, Rich Paul, who owns Clutch,

who supposedly owns Clutch. People don't think LeBron is- Oh, no, he owns Clutch. No, he owns Clutch. I just, LeBron, we'll never know. We'll never know what LeBron's involvement is owns Clutch. No, he owns Clutch. I just, you know, LeBron, we'll never know. We'll never know what LeBron's involvement is in Clutch. But Rich Paul represents LeBron and Ben Simmons, as you said. But, but.

It's a pretty good way to start an agency with LeBron and Ben Simmons. Yeah, LeBron's, you know, he's just recruiting guys as a personal favorite of Rich Paul. He has no stake in the agency. Sure. So, but I'm going to play some in the agency. Sure. So, but I'm going to play some dramatic butt music, but who represents Joel Embiid?

Brian Woonhorse. I believe it's BAA? No, Wasserman. No? No. Oh, wow. I can't believe I'm telling you things How am I telling you things? I'm having a brain fart

Joel Embiid is represented by Leon Rose Well CAA Leon Rose CAA What is Leon Rose's involvement in LeBron James' life

in the past? I just saw Leon last night I said hello He was LeBron's first agent He negotiated basically LeBron, Bosh, and Wade coming together in Miami. Who is Leon Rose's closest confidant who also works for CAA? William Wesley. What is William Wesley's relationship with LeBron?

I don't think it's very good anymore, to be honest with you. Oh, I think not very good is an understatement, but he was, as we said earlier, in that 2012, he was a father figure for LeBron, and in that 2012 Boston game, it was World Wide West and Lynn Merritt courtside as his support system, and then eventually World Wide West leaves, and now him and Leon Rose are prominently involved in Joel Embiid's life.

I'm just laying it out. I think it could be a little rocky. If I'm Joel Embiid, do I want LeBron on my team? I don't necessarily know if Ben Simmons should want LeBron on his team. I think it's fascinating to talk about. I think for a team like Philly that has Sarich and has Fultz and has the 10th pick and has this pick

and cap space other plus picks they have a lot of weapons at their disposal that they can use to improve this team. They have cap space if they want it. They don't necessarily have to go for the big fish.

But certainly it would be very tempting if LeBron was interested. I just don't know if it's the most ideal fit. You know, yes, I do think that, and I don't know if it would be the best thing for Embiid's career if LeBron went there. It might be the best thing for their team, but I agree. You know, you may be on to something there. Well, listen, we'll find out if Joel Embiid is a man or not,

I guess is what we're going to find out. We'll find out, Joel. Are you a little boy who lets your team tell you what to do and LeBron shows up and you're just in LeBron's pocket? Or are you your own man? I'm kidding, by the way. By the way, this is so interesting with Philly and Cleveland right now. So Philly is doing major game planning for their most important

summer, arguably in franchise history because, because they're not going to have cap space and their, and their draft pick assets dwindle a little bit after this year. So this, like this summer is everything for them. What they decided to do in the summer is everything. So they're like in battle command mode in Philly,

preparing not only for a lottery pick, but how do we engage? What do we do with Kawhi? What do we do with Paul George? What do we do with LeBron? Then you're the Cavs. The Cavs are out there. They, you know, right now have the seventh pick. Like, they've got to decide how they're going to,

what they're going to do here. Like, you know, because the season will end on them quickly one way or the other. And they're going to have to decide, hey, do we want to trade this pick, try to keep LeBron? Do we want to, like, get LeBron involved in this? Because the draft, obviously, is before free agency. So you're going to have to have a good feel for LeBron, what he's going to do before you, you know, do you, for example, do you go for Trey Young or Michael Porter? You know? Or Bridges from Villanova.

Right. Or what happens if the Cavs look crazy, inexplainable lottery luck continues? What happens if they hop into the top three? I'm driving off a cliff if that happens. Say goodbye, everybody. If the Cavs win another lottery, I'm done. I'm out.

I'm retiring. They don't have to win it. What if they just get the third pick? Oh, my God. That was the only time I lost my mind on national TV. I actually flipped out. I was on live television in front of a national audience, and I was like, you've got to be kidding me.

We've got to change the rules. This is crazy. Can I tell you my worst case scenario for Philly? Okay. As a Celtics fan. This is, as a Celtics fan, my worst case scenario for Philly? Okay. As a Celtics fan. This is, as a Celtics fan, my worst case scenario for their summer. Because I think this would be devastating. They make a move for Kawhi, which I think would be false.

That 10th pick, Covington, whatever. And then they clear cap space for Paul George. And next season they tried out Ben Simmons, Paul George, Kawhi, and Joel Embiid. Hide the women, hide the children. That's the upside move for them. If they can figure out how to get both of those guys on next year's team, it's over.

It's over. I'm thinking about the possibility of that. It would be difficult to clear the cap space to do Paul George for him to take the full max. But it's not impossible, especially because they have all of these young players who aren't making any money. Like Rashawn Holmes and DJ McConnell. Yeah, and Bede's contract kicks in next year.

Yeah. Redick is 23. Amir Johnson's 11. Covington is 16 next year. Bellinelli and Eliasova, I think, are like... I forget what they make, but... They're off.

I do think there's a roadmap for it to work. I'm looking at it. They would, they may like their big thing is they'd have to move Jared Bayless for sure. But you could, you could make San Antonio take Jared Bayless in a Kawhi trade because you'd be giving them like Sarge and the, and the picks or whatever.

It could be done. It would be difficult. And I don't know if Paul would be able to get his full max, but I believe it could be done. I'm looking at it. It's super doable because next year's team is Embiid at 25. Covington is on the books for 10, but he's probably got some sort of kicker in there. Bayless is 8.5.

Fultz is 8.3, but he's in the trade. Simmons is 6.4. Sarich is 2.5. From what I can see, they're only at like 50 or 60 million. So if you put Fultz and Covington in the Kawhi trade, then you'd have enough room for George.

Holy shit. I can't believe I even put this idea out in the general public. But this is a thing like, this is what those, not only that, they've got to, like right now, I promise you, the Sixers are doing full vetting background into Paul George. Yeah. And if you're the Spurs, I don't know this to be true, but my guess would be you're doing full vetting on potential kawaii trades just in case that's what happens and it wouldn't surprise me if like right now the spurs were doing vetting into sarge just to see like you know sarge and and folks and stuff like that just to

see what's going on there in the because you have to prepare this is what's so crazy like philly is playing their most meaningful games in i I don't know, decades. But, you know, I guess since they beat the Bulls in the first round when Rose got hurt, but they weren't really a super-duper threat. This year, they're like, these are their most impactful games in a long time, yet they're plotting for, like, a Riley-esque move this summer. And, like, they have to do it now. Because a year from now, all their young guys, they have to do it now because a year from now,

all their young guys, they have to start paying. Like this is their window. Well, it's very similar. It's similar to Boston where Boston's last two summers, they had to get free agents.

They had a two year window to land Horford slash Durant or both. And then they had to get Hayward or somebody comparable or Paul George Horford slash Durant or both. And then they had to get Hayward or somebody comparable or Paul George or whoever they ended up with last summer. And that was their window. And now it's really hard for them.

They can't go outside the cap anymore to get anybody else. I think at this point, Tatum and Jalen are probably untouchable. I can't imagine, you know, if the Spurs said, well, we'll trade you Kawhi right now for Jalen with all the information we have about Kawhi and what's going on with him and all that stuff. I think it's a scary trade. Boston would probably talk themselves into it, but I, but four months ago, that's not even a conversation. You're like, yeah, sure. Jalen, what? You named the price. And now it's like, oh.

The Kawhi trade is a leveraged trade. What I mean by that is you'd have to know whether he intended to extend with you or not. Now, I think if you traded for him, you'd have to wait six months. You couldn't extend him right away, which is a problem. You'd wink-wink it. That happens in six months.

You'd have to wink-wink it, right? Right, right. Of course. And by the way, I still can't believe. And, you know, Ramona Shelburne and Michael Wright, I don't know if you got to read that story. I did. Sort of really uncovered, not uncovered, it's the wrong word, sort of shed some light on some of the stuff that's going on in the Kauai camp and everything like that. But what I still can't figure out amongst all these guys, all these real estate deals and all these shoe deals, if the Spurs offer the extra $70 million, there isn't an endorsement deal that Kauai can sign.

There isn't a financial bonus for going and playing for the Lakers or the Knicks that's big enough that covers for the $70 million difference. Now, look, if the Spurs don't offer it, that's the Spurs prerogative, and if they don't offer it, they deserve what they get. But I just can't see how any agent in his right mind, I don't care if he's your uncle, I don't care if he's Warren Buffett,

no one is going to tell you not to take $70 million more. You do the Carmelo where you get the money and then you figure out your move a year later. But it did seem like the one thing, there were a lot of revelations in that article. And one of them was Pop basically just seems fed up with him completely. That quote he had about he's not here, screw him.

Pop's won five titles. He's had a great career. And I do think he's a little like Belichick in this respect. Like, you don't want to be here? Fuck you. You're out. The best part of that story, though, I'd been, you and I swim in the same info circles and hear stuff and hear a lot of stuff we can't talk about or we can allude to and that's it on podcast, TV, whatever.

I was very happy that Uncle Dennis finally got his big moment in the Ramona Michael Wright story where I had just been hearing about Uncle Dennis for months and months and months. I was so fired up. Now we can actually just openly talk about Uncle Dennis who, you know, we've had Uncle Dennis's in the past. It's not great for Kawhi. It's just not. This is not a good situation. It just doesn't seem like he has a good circle around him. And anytime your uncle is a dominant advisor in your life who doesn't really seem like he has a lot of experience on this front, it's not good. It's just not.

Well, I don't know, Kawhi. I do know his father was murdered, and his uncle has been a driving factor in his life for a long time. He didn't show up 15 minutes ago. No, I'm aware of all that. I'm just saying it seems like he's the dominant advisor that he has right now. That does seem to be true.

And I would just say that there is no, I can't see an advisor in the world. I don't care if you're talking to a Swiss banker who wouldn't advise taking the extra $70 million. And again, the Spurs have to offer it. And if the Spurs don't offer it, then we have a different conversation. But if the Spurs offer million. And again, the Spurs have to offer it. And if the Spurs don't offer it, then we have a different conversation. But if the Spurs offer the Supermax contract,

there is no explanation for why you wouldn't take it. Even if you're miserable, even if you never want to play another minute for Pop again, $70 million. You've got it out for a year and then demand a trade. Unless you feel like it has to be an LA team. And I think it's the Clippers. I said that on Monday.

I think that's where he wants to go. So if you think, all right, he's in LA. Here are all the things that open up. Could we make 50 million on a shoe deal now that he's like one of the LA stars? I don't, maybe you could talk yourself into that, but. You think there's a shoe company that's going to give, and by the way, these shoe deals, I mean,

I could arrange a shoe deal for you that could be reported for worth 300 million. I mean, if you, if you sell a billion dollars in product, right, you could rig it. I mean, you know, you can make a shoe deal, anything, but what's the act? I mean, does you think Kawhi Leonard makes Moose product? I mean, it's a terrible time for shoes. I will say. Shoes are not selling right now.

Yeah, but I will say, what happened with Kyrie when he went from being LeBron's sidekick to having his own team in Boston was pretty noticeable. You know, he went to the right city, right franchise, and it made him a bigger superstar. It just did. For sure. Kyrie's shoes were the only shoes. I just read a report this week. Kyrie's shoes were the only shoes that increased in sales amongst all the signature guys.

Yeah. And I'm not even. Everybody else went down. I'm not even talking just about the shoes. I'm talking about cool factor, profile, appreciation of how good somebody is. $70 million? I don't know. $70 million.

$70 million. Kawhi arguably could have won the MVP last year. I voted for Harden. He's been, I think, in the top three MVP twice. He is really the only player who, I don't want to say he shut down LeBron, but really gave him everything there was to give in 13 and especially 14. Got in LeBron's head. Got in LeBron's head and was the best player in that series, by the way. For sure.

And has been one of the best players of this decade. And Jordan Brand's offering him him 20 million for four years. I can see how if I'm in Kawhi's life, I'm like, this is ridiculous. Now, the rub is that Kawhi has no personality. So it's kind of hard to sell. Let's say he just blows them out of the water. Let's say, so 70 million from the Spurs and 20 million from Jordan. That means that's 92 million.

He's now got to make up his salary and shoe deal. You're going to get there with Adidas? No. I say good luck to you. How would you describe Kawhi in two sentences? Boring. Boring greatness. I'm sure people

in his life are like, you're like Pop's robot. That's how people see you. Nobody knows what you are. You're just this great player. Meanwhile, you're as good as all these guys. Why aren't you in these conversations? If you're hearing that all the time, that's going to start affecting you. And it does seem like there was a little bit of a breach with the, as Ramona and Michael

Wright's story covered about which opinion do I trust, when you shift away from the team like that and find your own people, and then you're not going to the games, like it really does seem, I would be- I cannot believe he was not at the games. I would be, wouldn't you be, would you be flabbergasted if he came back next year?

I'd be flabbergasted. It just seems like it's over. The big thing to me wasn't what Papa said. It's what Parker and Ginobili have said. Yeah. Parker and Ginobili have come to like the, the two yard line of basically branding him, you know?

Yeah. The guy who, uh, he won a, he helped, he basically won them a ring. Like this is, you know,

Parker Ginobili are not crap talkers. That, to me, was a very indicting thing. But again, if the Spurs lose him, it could potentially be like the Bucs trading Abdul-Jabbar. Because while

you believe in R.C. Buford and Pop, it would reset the franchise. Genovese is going to retire Parker, raise the specter of Will Goving to build another team. You would have a rebuild, and it may be 30 years before you get another Kawhi Leonard. Now, maybe not. Maybe you'd win the lottery. Maybe R.C. is just so great at team building, they'd have them right back on their feet in three years. But in a city like San Antonio, if you lose Kawhi Leonard in a forced trade, you could be in for 30 years of mediocrity.

I'm in the camp of never trading one of the five best players in the league. It's just one of my wacky theories. I'm in that camp too. Yeah, it's just like, show me when it's worked out. I'm in the camp of take the $70 million and work out your differences later. Come on, Uncle Dennis.

Do the right thing. Last but not least, and then I'm going to let you go. I can't remember. When was the first time you were on my podcast? Probably like 2009, 2010? The 2010. Somewhere in there? When that series, when that Celtics Cavs series

yeah the Celtics Cavs series 2010 somewhere around there there's a BS report where you came on and we talked about LeBron and what the F was going on with him

it's been really fun to watch your career blossom over these last 8 to 10 years and I watched I emailed you

I was with my dad last week you went on PTI you were just awesome it's really hard to do those five good minutes things. And I was just like, Oh man, that look at Wendy. He's all grown up dude now doing his thing. Uh, it's been really fun to watch. Thank you. As long as you're being kind to me, I, I am such a fan of this podcast network and the rewatchable. Um, i love it thank you and uh i i may uh petition certain whenever you do certain movies if i could squeeze in because i the few good men i if if you're going to only listen to one rewatchable podcast don't listen to the few good men i just i enjoy it with a smile on my face.

It's so nice to not talk about basketball. It's a relief to not talk about basketball occasionally and listen to basketball. And, um, well, especially appreciate it. Well,

thank you. I appreciate that. Especially cause not only now that the way the NBA goes, you're going to go through the finals, the draft. Where's LeBron going? July 1st, next 10 days. Oh my God, this happened. This happened. Oh, finally we can get a chance to breathe. Oh no, two more things have happened. Oh wait, now it's August. This is a 12 month sport now. It just is. I think it's great. It's great for the ringer. It's great for our business.

We love basketball. That's a huge part of our DNA. But it's exhausting. I can only imagine for you. It never ends. The sport never, ever, ever stops. It's incredible. We're very fortunate. We're in a great time to be in the NBA.

And the fans' response to the league, the young fans especially, has been awesome. This is my 15th year covering the league. I'm very, very fortunate to be covering the league, the young fans especially, has been... This is my 15th year covering the league and it's just so... I'm very, very fortunate to be covering the league at this time. It's a tremendous opportunity. I've worn out a lot. I left the arena last night at 2.45 a.m., but

I really... It's really... We're very, very lucky that there's so many people love the NBA. It's great. I'm going to the entire finals. So I'll see you there. Take care of yourself. All right. Sounds good.

Thank you. Good talking to you. Bye-bye. Thanks to ZipRecruiter, our presenting sponsor. Go to ZipRecruiter.com. Please check them out. Thanks to Proper Cloth, the leader in men's custom shirts. Create your custom shirt size by answering 10 easy questions.

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it's not heat check, it's group chat. Group chat, Wednesday night. They are going to be live on our Twitter feed at Ringer, and you can send them questions coming off of the playoff games tonight. Don't forget me on the Masterman Show, Talking Wrestling. The Dave Chang Show,

episode two coming tomorrow, Thursday. Rewatchable Social Network, probably early part of next week in the BS Podcast. We'll come back one more time. There's a possibility we might tape tomorrow night after the playoff games or Friday morning. Either way, we'll be back one more time. Thanks to Brian Windhorst. Talk to you soon.