The Bill Simmons Podcast - LeBron vs. Johnny Bananas, the Fall of the Giants, and a 'Triple Frontier' Review With Dave Jacoby, Kevin Clark, and Shea Serrano | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: March 20, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin Clark to discuss a crazy month for the NY Giants as well as other offseason moves (3:00). Then Bill calls up his old pal Dave Jacoby to talk reality TV, LeBron James vs. Johnny Bananas, Jalen Rose, and more (34:15). Finally Bill talks with Shea Serrano about the Spurs' nine-game win streak and the new Netflix film 'Triple Frontier' [WARNING: SPOILERS] (1:21:55). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast on the ringer podcast network brought to you as always by ZipRecruiter. The best teams start with great talent. Grantland was like that. Dave Jacoby's coming on later. We were part of a great team at Grantland. You know, just got to find the talent. It's all about the talent. No one knows that more than ZipRecruiter. They deliver qualified candidates fast. So effective. 80% of employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site in just one day. My listeners can try it for free. ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, SoFi. Did you know you're being underpaid by your bank account? That's why SoFi just launched SoFi Money. It's like checking and savings morphed into one single account. You'll earn way more

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rewatchables. Check that out. Also check out One Shining Podcast. You have basically less than 48 hours to fill out a bracket and those guys will help you. They did a whole thing on the Ringer Twitter feed this week, as well as a couple podcasts. So you can listen to those and listen to Against All Odds with Cousin Sal, because him and the degenerate trifecta are breaking down everything March Madness style, as well as I think Tate and Titus are going on that too. We have them just car washing the ringer basically right now. Coming up, just a whole bunch of people, including Dave Jacoby, who I don't feel like has been

on this podcast in a while. Maybe not even since I left ESPN. I don't know. We're about to find out. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, Kevin Clark is here. We haven't hit the Insane Giants month, and I wanted to grab you while I saw you in the office.

I got excited. I was like, hey, that's Kevin Clark, the ringer's own. The Giants lost their minds. I'd be going crazy if I was a Giants fan. I don't understand really anything they're doing, and they seem like they have become the NFL's official laughingstock. Am I missing something? No, you're not. Because they had Odell Beckham Jr., who's a good player,

under a reasonable contract. They paid him over $20 million last year. He played 12 games. Then you trade him? I'm not. You trade Olivier Vernon. You get a pretty good lineman in return. I think that's fine.

But then signing Golden Tate, they're not tanking. They're not like the Dolphins. The Dolphins just signed Ryan Fitzpatrick. The tank iseman in return. I think that's fine. But then signing Golden Tate, they're not tanking. They're not like the Dolphins. The Dolphins just signed Ryan Fitzpatrick. The tank is on in Miami. Yeah. The Giants are just sort of, they've lost their minds. I don't even, there's not an adjective to describe what's happening to the Giants. Dave Gettleman, it's a heat check performance from Dave Gettleman.

Really? Since last year? He comes out yesterday and says, well, it's football. It wasn't culture. It wasn't locker room. It's all football reasons,

which makes no sense. No sense. There is not an anecdote. You can leak to me about Odell Beckham. That would justify the trade. Yeah. And by the way, there has been none.

There's been none. I mean, it's just Jay Glazer who had this, you know, months ago. Yeah. And by the way, there's been none. There's been none. I mean, it's just Jay Glazer who had this, you know, months ago that this is out there. He compared it

to sort of a relationship that was just over. And I don't know if you're the Giants why you don't do everything you can to repair that.

By the way, he just signed an extension. So just keep him around. Well, and also it's a huge cap hit for him this year. It's like 20, it was 22 million if they,. So just keep him around. Well, and also it's a huge cap hit for him this year. It was 22 million if they just played him and 21 million if they didn't play him.

Yeah. At that point, I'd rather just play the guy. And this is a couple of days after the Steelers took the biggest cap hit in history. Which I didn't understand that either. Cap in history for Antonio Brown. But not only that, superstars are now undervalued because of the rising cap.

Yeah. And the fact that- You wrote about this. Positions have not kept up with it. And so essentially what's happening, as we know, no superstar ever reaches free agency. So the middle tier guys set the agenda. And so essentially what's happening is you're getting, the Browns are getting Odell Beckham for less than the Jets are paying CJ Mosley per year.

And that's true of Antonio Brown as well. Right. So just get those of Antonio Brown as well. So just get those guys when they're available. I don't know why there wasn't a huge bidding war, by the way, for Odell Beckham. Well, it seemed like so many teams had cap space that it's becoming like when you've been in a fantasy auction, right? I have.

So there was this stretch with fantasy auctions before people really realized what to do during fantasy auctions, where really realized what to do during fantasy auctions where you could just get awesome guys for like 80, 70% of what they were actually worth. And now everybody gets it. Like I'm in a football fantasy auction and the best guys are going for 65, $75, whatever. And then everybody, you know, cheaps out on quarterbacks and everybody has the same recipe now. And in football now, it seems like there were fantasy auctions were 15 years ago where you're like, all right, I'll take Antonio Brown.

Great. Now I have one of the best 14 guys in the league. That's exactly what's happening. And now a lot of the giants people are saying, well, we're set up. You get rid of Vernon's contract. You get rid of Odell's contract. We're set up for 2020. Well, here's the problem. Everybody set up for 2020 get rid of Vernon's contract, you get rid of Odell's contract, we're set up for 2020.

Well, here's the problem. Everybody's set up for 2020. Everybody. I remember when I think Lombardi was on our podcast a couple of years ago and we were talking about it and he was saying, one of the mistakes that they made in Cleveland was overemphasizing cap space because they realized once they got it, everybody had cap space. The damn Patriots can get cap space yeah because they realized once they got it everybody had cap space the damn patriots can get cap space everybody can get so it doesn't matter if you're gonna do the nba it's not the nba where you open up the max slots bring these guys in it's really easy to just find 20 million dollars in cap space under a pillow somewhere in the nfl well and then you talk about it would really benefit to have cap space when Odell Beckham becomes

available and a team is done with it to trade him. That would be great. Hey, cool. We have cap space. Yeah, we have cap space to bring on the superstars that GMs have freaked out about and traded for some reason. I know he's a little loony, and I know he hasn't been 100% durable,

but I love getting receivers who have been with mediocre to worst quarterbacks and putting them with somebody who's actually a good quarterback. I would call this the Randy Moss. We have Randy Moss toiling in obscurity in Oakland for a couple of years there. The Pats grab him, pull him in. And not only are they getting Randy Moss, but they're getting a grateful Randy Moss who's like, cool. Yeah. So when I'm open, the guy just throws it

and it's right in my hands. And then I keep running. It's a grateful Odell Beckham Jr. I had a talk with one of the Rams front office guys at the Super Bowl. And I was like, so what's the inefficiency you guys hit? And we're talking about a couple of things. He's like, unfortunately, the NFL is actually

pretty efficient, except a couple of things. Number one, free agency. And number're talking about a couple of things. He's like, unfortunately, the NFL is actually pretty efficient, except a couple of things. Number one, free agency. And number two, wide receivers when you don't know who the quarterback is. Robert Woods, and the guy was using an example of Robert Woods for both of these. Robert Woods was A, available in free agency at a discount price, but B, he was in Buffalo. And he was pretty good that year. Yeah. But he was pretty good on Buffalo that year. He was okay in Buffalo. And so it's like, wait, if this guy can get open, no one realizes it, and we can bring him in for 50 cents on the dollar, and he's a value signing.

I was way off on Robert Woods because I didn't put enough stock into the fact he was playing with crappy quarterbacks. Yeah. I was trying to figure out who the Pats were going to sign with free agency. A couple of weeks ago when I was looking, I was trying to figure out the good metrics. Adam Humphries. So I was on Football Outsiders, and they have like DYAR for yards above replacement player, basically. And Adam Humphries was surprisingly high. I'm not sure he's very good, but I was just surprised where he was positioned.

He's rich. And Golden Tate was last out of all the guys who qualified. And I'm thinking like, that's weird because I really wanted the Pats to sign Golden Tate. Yeah. They could say he got traded during the season. That's weird. Eagles never really figured out to use him. Eagles had no idea.

Or you could say maybe he's just not good anymore. Now, if Golden Tate's not good, and then you've gotten rid of Odell Beckham, and then you have Eli Manning, and then you have poor Saquon, who I love, who is just going to be going against nine-man lines. I love, yeah, I love.

This has all the makings of a disaster. I mean, a complete disaster. A complete disaster. Also, by the way, if you're going to draft a young quarterback, what better way to bring him into the NFL than into a complete tire fire? Just like bring him into just the most dysfunctional.

Let him learn. But maybe you. From an angry old Eli. Skill position players that are, you know, besides Saquon, he has nobody to throw to. But maybe you don't draft a quarterback this year because it doesn't seem like anybody's. But they're not tanking. Dude, if you want Tua, you you got to out-tank a team that just gave Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year deal.

Good luck. Yeah, that's pretty good. That's pretty good, dude. But they'd have to have a lot of confidence in Flores. Plus... To tank? Yeah. Yeah.

You got to be like, hey, dude, this is part of the job. I always feel like Arizona is always in play in the tank thing just because their GM had one of the worst 13-month stretches of anyone ever. So he has to be mentioned. And then, you know, everyone in the AFC East is just suspect in general. Well, they've all at various times employed Ryan Fitzpatrick. Yes. It's going to be nice to have Fitz in the division again.

Yeah. Kyle, you're glad to see him twice a year. I missed him. He'll throw us some picks I do worry that he's going to win too many games to tank for the Dolph if the plan is to tank I feel like Fitz gets you just a quiet four wins a year

I think Ryan Fitzpatrick is Chinese food it's good for about three hours but it's like if you over order and like I'll have it two days, if you, if you over-order and like, oh, I'll have, I'll have it two days from now.

You're going to see the, the, the sweet and sour shrimp in there two days later and you're just going to be like, eh. And that's how I feel

about Ryan Fitzpatrick. It's a great idea for like a week. He's made $60 million in the NFL. It's really fun and you're like, oh,

Fitz, Fitzpatrick. Yeah. And then he has the four interception game and you're like, yeah, that's Fitz Magic. Yeah. And then he has the four interception game. You're like, yeah. That's why he's been on eight teams. I can't believe.

So let's go backwards. Yeah. All the Giants have to do is give the tender to Landon Collins. And he costs $11 million. The free agent. The franchise. Yeah. Franchise.

Yeah. Keep Odell because you're getting crushed by him on the cap anyway. Right. And you have him under a fairly manageable deal. They already paid up the upfront money too. They make the trade. They get first and a second, and they get Peppers back because he can play the Collins position.

Right. Who they just let go. They could have kept for 11 million. They filled the need that they created for no reason. Who then goes and signs for like double that. I don't even know what it averaged out to a year, but Washington gives him some crazy number. Right. that they created for no reason. Who then goes and signs for like double that. I don't even know what it averaged out to a year, but Washington gives them some crazy number.

Right. So that happens. They somehow- That actually ended up, tying up Washington's cap is actually- I guess maybe that was a stealth positive out of this. They don't do anything about Eli. Right. Everyone thinks Eli's done.

They paid him his bonus. Everyone thinks Eli's done at this point. Who is in the Eli's not done yet camp? Dave Gettleman. Dave Gettleman and maybe like Archie Manning. A couple of the Maras maybe. I find all this astonishing. I can't believe

in 2019 with all the intelligence we have that a team can be this poorly run. How does it happen? Well, it's funny because the story that comes out that, well, they don't want Landon Collins because he's a box safety, not good for the modern NFL, plays too close to the line. So then they went out and they got another box safety. So even the leak to justify Landon Collins wasn't even true. I thought it was just the strangest thing. Just run it back. You know, I mean, I think that the sort of Rosetta Stone for the Dave Gettleman era is when he renounced the rights to Josh Norman for no reason. They had him under a franchise tag. He was going to play

it. He wasn't going to sit out a year. Josh Norman works his ass off. He was just a little bit upset he didn't get a long-term contract. And so they got a little bit sensitive in Carolina and they said, we're going to renounce his rights for basically no reason. He signed the biggest, I think, defensive contract in history with Washington right after. But you're coming off a Super Bowl. You've got Cam again.

Cam is peaking. You have a lot of talent there, okay? Ron Rivera is a good coach. Why are you messing with this? Why are you, by renouncing the rights to, what, your third best player? Why? And I think that you need to start asking those questions.

And he's now let two stars go because they were mildly upset. That seems like a bad... Isn't it your job to make things better, not just let people go whenever they get mildly upset? The Giants fans love to point to Sam Darnold versus Saquon in that pick and how if they had taken Sam Darnold, all of this would have been different. We're sure it would have been that different.

No. We're sure Sam Darnold would have been the magic elixir. I watched Sam Darnold last year. I think the problem with everything that happened last year was that Dave Gettleman, his big stance was he wouldn't even take a call to trade down. He made fun of the people who said he should trade down. He did a mock keyboard. He did a mock keyboard as in, don't you blog about me trading down because I'm not going to do it. I'm going to take a running back second overall. So I don't know necessarily if

it's Darnold versus Saquon. If you're going to stay at two know necessarily if it's Darnold versus Saquon. If you're going to stay at two, yeah, it's Darnold versus Saquon. I don't know how different that is right now. What I'm saying is you could have... In a quarterback draft, you can build a franchise around some desperate team overpaying.

Well, what did the Colts get where they ended up getting Quentin Nelson? Yeah, they traded to six, basically. They went from three to six, right? But then they got Nelson and then they got a whole bunch of other Yeah, they traded to six, basically. They went from three to six, right? Yeah. But then they got Nelson, and then they got a whole bunch of other shit. You have to two all pros.

That trade made their team. Yeah. And now you have two- It was an instant rebuild. You have two all pros. The Colts have $107 million in cap space right now. You want to talk about Dave Gettleman clearing the decks? Chris Ballard has Andrew Luck under contract,

who's an absolute superstar. He has two all pro rookies who are not up for three years and over $100 million in cap space. He just signed Devin Funches for $10 million. It's a drop in the bucket. Devin Funches sucks. Whatever. Who cares? That was rough.

He has $107 million in cap space. By the way, Devin Funches, Dave Gettleman pick. Is that true? Oh, yeah. All these teams have cap space, and then they feel like they need to have to spend it. And then there's the Patriots who do the same thing every year where they just kind of wait it out, and then they do these little – they got some nose tackle yesterday for like $5 million.

I'm sorry, Bill. They re-signed Ryan Allen today. Oh, there you go. Off-season. Nice little bow in the off-season. But it was fun, though. They got a little frisky. They were in the Adam Humphreys sweepstakes.

They were in the Adam Humphreys sweepstakes. And allegedly had the highest bid for it, and he chose Tennessee, which I hear something like that, and I'm just like, oh, you're a loser. You're just a lifelong loser. That's what that was.

No, I'm hurt. I'm hurt that he didn't pick us. Nashville's very nice. So you think that was a lifestyle decision? How do you not want to be a patriot? We've won six Super Bowls. How do you not want to play for us? What's wrong with these people? Nobody thinks about winning anymore. If tomorrow you were like, the ringer is relocating.

We're deciding between Boston and Nashville. I think that it would be like, the vote would be like 87 to 3. So you think people, you think a football player would just- Oh no, I don't know. I don't know Adam Huffer. Just cares about the city he's living in over the success of that team.

He's going to a team that has Blaine Gabbert and Marcus Mariota. No, you're wrong. It's Ryan Tannehill. Oh, that's right. So who's out? I think Gabbert is. Mariota's going to be the starter. Tannehill's the backup.

They're paying $5 million. So what happened to Armand Blaine? They're paying five of $7 million. The Dolphins picked up $2 million of it. Well, this will be the year for Ryan Tannehill. He's only 31. This is usually when careers take off. I think that Ryan Tannehill is going to be a great, great...

Here's Ryan Tannehill's next five years, okay? Phenomenal backup. Wins a game. Overqualified backup. Overqualified backup. Wins a game. Two years from now, some team says Ryan Tannehill's ready to be a starter again.

Fitzmagic, part two. One year of just disastrous play back to being just a properly rated backup. By the way, this is the John Kitna, Ryan Fitzpatrick playbook of I'm good at being a backup and then people just talking. It's like the two in the morning

when you're drunk. Yeah. Just kind of talking yourself into a bad situation. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Kyle, you have no experience with that at all.

That's never happened to you ever. I thought it was also funny that the Raiders who trade Khalil Mack, who's one of the best 13 players in the league, and the whole principle behind it is,

well, we're not going to win anyway. We can turn him into all these picks. And then they flip it the other way and they get Antonio Brown for a pretty cheap price.

Take a flyer on him. But now you're not rebuilding anymore. Yeah. they flip it the other way and they get Antonio Brown for a pretty cheap price. Take a flyer on him. But now you're not rebuilding anymore. Yeah. The whole point with the Kuiil Mack thing is this is now a teardown. And the Mark Cooper thing. Yeah, this is a three-year project now. We're going to have some young dudes.

But now all of a sudden I also have Antonio Brown. On paper, the trade makes sense. But the more I look at it, and I think he's one of the five best receivers of my lifetime. Why do I want to put him on this team? Why do I want Carr as his quarterback and John the Fossil

Gruden as his coach and the team's moving in a year? This could be a disaster. I think the team moving in a year is a bigger part of this than we think. In a good way. Yeah, I mean, you've been to Vegas recently. I think the team moving in a year is a bigger part of this than we think. They need someone. In a good way. Yeah. I mean, you've been to Vegas recently. The billboards have John Gruden on them.

Like, that's fine. But like. I know people love coming to see a head coach. No, I know. I'm just saying like you had. Nothing like watching that guy on a windbreaker. At one point you had Kahlil Mack on the team. At one time you had Amari Cooper on the team.

I don't know if Derek Carr is going to be around for Vegas. I have no idea. That contract is easy to get out of. And so you need to start selling some PSLs. That's my thought. So I wasn't really happy. You know, Cleveland is, I guess, the only team that you look and you go, this is awesome. I love

what they're doing here. Yep. Like just from a fun... They also could have traded for both Brown and Odell. So that would have been interesting. That was my idea. Yep. Like just from a fun. They also could have signed a trade for both people, both Brown and Odell. So that would have been. That was my idea. I'm talking about from a fun standpoint. Yeah.

The only team that got more fun is Cleveland, but then they also have this Kareem Hunt thing. Not good. That I still don't understand why they signed Kareem Hunt. Because I really like Nick Chubb.

Nick Chubb was a beast down the stretch last year. And the Chiefs offensive efficiency got better after Hunt. That was just weird. Why bring that over? You have so many good things going on. But I think the Baker. They also did the Baker-Odell-Landry.

They did something that I like. Where you have best friends that are together, and one of the best friends is a little crazy, and the other best friend is the more stable version. I'm sorry. Wait, which one's crazy? Well, in this case, both of them are a little crazy. Oh, that was more crazy than...

I think Jarvis is the more stable one of the two. I think they might need to add a third former LSU player you know everybody's close to that former punter wing they need to bring that guy in and he can just sort them both out he can just be friends with both of them normally I don't like putting

two potential trouble guys together in this case I like it and I think these guys are going to really feed off each other in a significant way. I think it's healthy. I think their attitude, I guess you could say,

I think it's healthy. I think it's like competitiveness, if that makes sense. Like, you know, there's a difference between sort of crazy, crazy and competitive crazy. And those guys are

whatever sort of problems they've had with coaches or whatever it's mostly been through the avenue of competition and competitiveness if we do the crazy receiver scale and to is a 10 to 10 yeah odell was what do you think he was in the giants like an eight uh jarvis is like a five i'd say i don, man. I mean, I think that the Dolphins really wanted to trade Jarvis Landry. I think he just wanted the ball a lot. He's higher than. Yeah, I think they're both like six and a half. Where's Antonio Brown after last season?

He's a solid nine. I mean, he pegged his quarterback with a football. He also painted his mustache blonde until they traded him. And then after they traded him, he made it the normal color again, which I thought. Some incredible character acting there. Yeah, what's going on? I think he was tanking his value. I mean, he went.

So first of all, he goes on ESPN and says, I don't need football. Yeah. While they're trying to trade him. I do think there was some of it he's just trying to get out. I think that's all he cared about was trying to get out. Mission accomplished. But I just, I don't think, I've just trying to get out. I think that's all he cared about, was trying to get out. Mission accomplished. But I just, I don't, I've seen Antonio Brown in practice,

and he's not for everybody, but like he works his ass off. He does, I think actions speak louder than words. It's not like, even though he pegged his quarterback with a football and left practice, he still needs football. I mean, I think his work ethic, when he's not literally leaving the facility

in frustration, has not ever been in question. How weird would it be if the Pats gave up a first round pick for Antonio Brown like tomorrow? Yeah. I wondered about that. The Raiders, because this has happened a couple of times in sports history. Most famously, Portland trades Moses Malone in 1976 before their title season, 77. They decide Bill Walton, he's too expensive. They flip him to Buffalo for a conditional first-round pick. Six days later, they trade him to Houston for two first-round picks. So why couldn't that happen here?

Because I don't know if you noticed this. Mike Piazza, Florida Marlin is a bit like that as well. The Pats need a receiver. I don't know if you've noticed this. I have noticed this, yeah. Chris Hogan, they've obviously decided they're... He's taking meetings or something, yeah. I mean, he was really bad last year.

Then they signed a whole bunch of people that I've never really heard of. I've heard of the names, but certainly not anyone who started for a fantasy team in their life. Right. And they have all these picks, and they don't have the roster spots for 12 picks. So they're going to do the usual thing where they either trade back, trade for picks next year or maybe they make a trade like they did a couple years ago

for the Brandon Cooks type trade. Which I've been waiting on. So who is that for? AJ Green? I think they're going to win the Super Bowl. I think you say all that and then they're just going to win the Super Bowl. I don't know how it happens, but they're going to win the Super Bowl. I already have them penciled in. What are youed in. AJ Green would be a great addition. I mean, I think you look at the Chris Sims report from a couple weeks ago

that they were aggressively trying to trade for Odell and you can sort of see the fact that they would be aggressive and they want top-tier talent and they believe that wide receivers are extremely valuable. If you can get AJ Green for 50 cents on the dollar. You do that.

Anybody else out there for my team? I don't, I mean, I just don't know which top tier receivers would be available. Do you think we've just given it up on receivers? Cause Brady, Brady's long ball accuracy isn't, hasn't really been there anymore.

And they're just, they're now James White. They turned James White. We just won a Super Bowl we scored 13 points and won a Super Bowl we just don't care the guys who've rewritten

the record books we're receiving are literally in the playoffs are literally Jerry Rice and James White like that's that's where Brady's arm

is right now screens, wheel routes and tight ends over the middle still gonna win the Super Bowl yeah I really look forward to it Mike Evans I don't know

I mean why would the Bucs let Mike Evans go I don't know. I mean, why would the Bucs let Mike Evans go? I don't know. Why did the Giants trade Odell Beckham? Just naming good receivers. I don't think Bruce Arians would be okay with that. Yeah, I think so. I think he would want...

They're also trying to... Oddly enough, Bruce Arians has been hired to fix Jameis Winston, which doesn't seem like a good plan. But keeping Mike Evans would be a part of that. Can I ask you a math question? Sure. So the Giants are paying $21 million not to have Odell Beckham on their team. Okay.

The Browns are paying $22 million to have Odell Beckham on their team. Okay. The math is off. Well... He's only making $22 million, but he's worth $43 million. I don't understand that. Well, it's just a penalty.

It's just a penalty for getting rid of a guy a year after you have that huge signing bonus. I don't like it. Okay. I just think you should be able to trade the guy. Why do I have to have a cap penalty? You think that they should be able to get rid of the guy a year after you have that huge signing bonus. I don't like it. Okay. I just think you should be able to trade the guy. Why do I have to have a cap penalty? You think that they should be able to get rid of the entire cap? I don't think somebody should be worth more on the cap than what you're paying them.

Maybe there should be like a 15% trade kicker penalty or something like that. But why does it have to be 21 million? Dead money is typically effective at keeping guys on a team, which is what the player wants. No, I get it. Like they give them the bonus up front. I get it. So also it keeps guys from getting cut a lot, right?

Like you're just going to pay the guy instead of... So the reason I think Derek Carr contract is easy to get out of is because he has almost no dead money. So he's essentially not guaranteed to be on the team after this year, after last year, actually. But it's a protective mechanism in some ways. So I can see why it's not. So you think the players union likes having this system where there's just dead money all over the league? No, I think that the players union would want that to come off because they would rather just the money be spent. They would want the Giants to have more cap space so then they could spend the money on a player.

It would be better for the PA, I think. I've never asked this question to them, but wouldn't it be better if the Giants just had more cap space to just give the money to Golden Tate? Or what about this? So when's the next CBA? After 2020. Each team gets an amnesty over the course

of the next seven years. And at any point, you could just wipe off the dead cap of whoever. Well, except that it's just so temporary. It's not like when you stretch a contract in the NBA. You can usually get out of contracts. You can usually get out of contracts. Who's the Joe

Kim Noah of the NFL? I don't know. The guy usually just gets waved. Yeah. It's waved for two years. It doesn't matter. Dead cat forever. I don't know.

I mean, I'll tell you who it is. Todd Gurley. Whoa. I'm just going to prove to me. I'm wrong. Was, was Kyle's mic on for that?

Whoa. Cause that was amazing. Are we sure Todd Gurley's going to play football at a high level ever again? I don't mean to be glib. I'm honestly asking. The guy... Well, he's a running back. The guy is a running back who, as the season went along,

couldn't be productive anymore. And in the Super Bowl, they played C.J. Anderson over him. And then they were extremely cagey about the injury for two months. Beyond cagey, we still don't know what the injury was. What happened? Rumors. Everyone says arthritis, right? Yeah, everyone says he's got a condition.

That's the word. Well, that's dangerous. That's not good. I mean, this is like why windows with sports are so crazy because you think like the rams team of the decade and now it's like i have no idea now they have blake bortles yeah they have blake they went from they have the best coach in football they went from having the best offensive talent in football and then a month later no one knows if todd girl he's ever gonna be good again and their roster includes Blake Bortles. That's a life and they went all in on the cap too.

Yeah. This year is like the last year back on that when I've said that in the past. Yeah, they've pushed back and basically said they have more flexibility and everybody thinks Nama can sue was off the books. You know, they went in for one year on some of these guys, but I think

that they think that they have more flexibility. They were clearing a little bit of cap space. You know, they got rid have more flexibility. They were clearing a little bit of cap space. You know, they got rid of John Sullivan. They were clearing a little cap space for maybe a big swing this offseason. That didn't come together. Obviously, Odell and Antonio Brown went somewhere else. But I think that they think,

and I think it's a good instinct to have, that the cap keeps rising $10 million a year. And so being up against the cap isn't what it used to be. And it's not like the NBA, where you're just absolutely screwed if you're up against the cap. The Gurley situation to me is the most interesting story of 2019 other than Beckham getting traded. Because we knew Brown was getting traded. Take all the other ones, whatever. Stuff happens every year. That one is like, if that guy doesn't come back, they just were never the same after he wasn't never the same.

He did so much for them. I don't see any scenario where they're as dangerous next year if he's 60%, 70%. And nobody will talk about it. That's the part I don't get. Well, you also have the fact that Niners will be better.

Seahawks will be better. I like the Tevin Coleman signing. And then McKinnon. Was that two years, 10 million? McKinnon's coming back. That was a steal. McKinnon's coming back. So 49ers will be better.

Seahawks, I think, are really good. This is not going to be. The Niners have George Kittle, the best player in football. They do have George Kittle, the best player in football. Jimmy Garoppolo will be healthy. They're no longer paying him $41 million in cash like last year. Kyle, when do you buy a Niners jersey just to support? If he makes it two games, dude. Just have anc team first two games if he's in i'm that's gonna be our nfc team

this year that's it yeah yeah i love that kyler kyler in arizona hey no that division that gm they'll never do anything until that guy goes steve khan he that that guy bombed in an epic way in year one. And then it's like, all right, guys. So reset button? Cool. New QB, new coach? Can we try this again? He was the GM for like the Bruce Arians glory days,

but that was just sort of, I mean, he drafted Honey Badger. I mean, he did some okay things. The problem is he has really bombed on a number of drafts, and then he keeps getting to hire coaches. But I thought Bruce Arians had a lot of say. Bruce Arians brought Carson Palmer in. I remember being an owner. I thought he was more involved with this stuff.

No? Yes and no. Yes and no. I mean, he made it work. When Bruce left left I was like this is now the Steve Kime show the Steve Kime show and he brought in Steve Wilkes

he's the voice he brought in Steve Wilkes you're in charge now buddy he got a DUI um that was you know not

not great either that's not a class week rough year rough 13 months for Steve tough year uh he had to fire Steve Wilkes and it was one of those weird firings

where it was just randomly leaked in like October but it going to happen so everyone spent two months being like well i guess this guy's getting fired yeah that's always good yeah it was it was not a good year and then you hired cliff kingsbury who had at one point both patrick mahomes and baker mayfield and never won much and went 35 and 40 it's i love you what are we what are we doing there i don't know all i know is the decision makers always stay in the and everyone else gets It's, I love, what are we, what are we doing there? I don't know. All I know is the decision makers always stay in the, and everyone else gets blamed until somebody looks at the decision maker and goes, oh, maybe we should get rid of you.

That'd be a good idea. And then all of a sudden things are slightly better. Poor Kyler. Kevin Clark, ringer NFL show. You did the rewatchables. Did the rewatchables. I think we're doing something again later this week as well. Oh, cool. Yeah. All right. It's content season, baby. Orlando's two games out of the rewatchables. Did the rewatchables. I think we're doing something again later this week as well. Oh, cool. Yeah.

It's content season, baby. Orlando's two games out of the playoff hunt. Fultz saw a tweet today from John Denton. He's assimilating back into the team. Congratulations. Assimilating back into Orlando, Bill. Could be five, six years. Hi, haters. What's up?

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All right, on the line right now, my old Grandland teammate, my buddy, a guy I've spent a lot of time with over the years, a guy that the last time I saw in person, I stormed out of a bar because he cheated in golden tea, and somebody who got me in trouble when I went on Jalen and Jacoby right before the NBA season and predicted the Celtics would win 67 games.

He didn't try to talk me out of it. I'm embarrassed. The clip gets thrown at me. We're still friends. We're friends for life. Dave Jacoby, how are you? I'm great. So glad to be back.

Yeah, it's been a while. The czar. Are you still the czar of reality TV or not really? Did you abdicate it? I have not done anything officially in terms of paperwork. And I don't really feel like I've been replaced. And if I were to be replaced, it would be by Julia Lipman. And, you know, we're basically family.

So it's all good. Yeah, she's the queen of reality TV. So maybe there's room for both of you. I, in my, in my memory of all the podcasts I've done, I've been doing these since 2007. One of the 10 greatest I've ever done was after the first episode of Jersey Shore. When you and I came on the next day and we broke it down the same way somebody would break down the JFK assassination tape or whatever happened to flight 370 in Malaysia, all that stuff. Um, I, I still have fond memories of that Jacob's. I don't feel like we're ever going to have a

reality show like that again, that has the impact that that specific show had. That was, it wasn't just one of my favorite sort of like media appearances. That was my favorite just inter-human conversations of my whole entire life because we were just so excited about it. People forget because we're so like removed from it. Yeah. Just how Jersey Shore captured the world.

Yeah. Well, and we had, what was it, True Life? We saw one of the, who did we see on True Life that got us excited? True Life, like Summer House at the Shore, but it wasn't the cast. You know what I it? True life. We saw one of the, who did we see on true life? That got us excited. True life, like summer house at the shore, but it wasn't the cast.

You know what I mean? And it was like a little teaser into the culture, into that like subculture lifestyle. But until we actually saw the first episode of Jersey shore, you forget the first episode, like remember Snooki was ostracized from the house. Yeah. Just calling the situation, the situation was just like a revelation.

Like there's like a human being that calls himself the situation. Now it's just like so common. So common. It's like, oh, whatever. Yeah, the situation, of course. Mike Tarantino. Yeah, I remember going to do like PTI or something in Washington after that show had been on for a year. And actually like trying to figure out where we were going to watch the show that night, which is really embarrassing to reveal now.

But it really for about a year and a half there had significant cultural impact. And now people think, I guess people think Vanderpump Rules is now kind of the, the, the, the goat of the shows right now. You know, it's one of those big network shows. I think the Bravo subgenres are still a step below in terms of audience and sort of like zeitgeistiness. But do you think there's nothing better? I remember we went to All-Star Weekend in New Orleans, I believe, which is a whole—we won't have to tell those stories. But I remember Vinny from Jersey Shore was there, and they were treating him like 2 Chainz would be treated today. You know, he was like front row everywhere. It was just like full treatment players coming over to shake his hand and introduce themselves. It was just like Vinny from Jersey short. Yeah. Well, I think Vanderpump doesn't that,

maybe it's not the most watched reality show, but isn't, it's the most like respected for what it does for the genre. Right. Or am I wrong? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, in my mind, I pray to the Vanderpump Temple twice a week. I watched last night's episode. I plan on watching.

I watch each episode twice because of the nuance. And sometimes if I've already seen it, I turn it on just to have it on in the background while I go around the house and do things just because I like being around those people. I love Vanderpump. So after I did the 67 win team thing on Jalen and Jacoby, we did a gimmick. We brought it back. It was an old Grantland basketball. We initially did that meet with me and Jalen, the summer preview. And then we did it again on the Grantland show, Bad News bill, where we dress like doctors and I delivered bad news.

And one of the things I did on Jalen or Jacoby was I delivered bad news. You were so much more committed to the character that Jalen was. It's one of my favorite parts of it. He wasn't really committed to any characters. He just wanted the bat. That was it. But I did, I had bad news for the Eastern conference that the Celtics were going to run away with it, go 67-15.

And it's one of the eight biggest regrets of my life, Jacobs. Well, at the time, it made a lot of sense. Thanks. It really did. If you look at the previous Celtics performance, you've got Brad Stevens. If anyone can weave in Kyrie Irving and Gordon Hayward, those two all-star top performers, anyone can just take care of the chemistry issues and the encore stuff. It's Brad Stevens. Vin, Kyrie Irving, and Gordon Hayward, those two all-star top performers. Anyone can just take care of the chemistry issues and the encore stuff.

It's Brad Stevens. We all believe in President Brad Stevens. At the time, it made total sense. It was like almost, I almost felt like it was an inevitable finals the same way the last four years have been, or the last three years have been between the Cavs and the Warriors.

So it's going to be Celtics-Warriors. Of course it is. And now the Celtics are scratching themselves for a home playoff series in round one. It's really horrible. And their over-under in Vegas was 59 and a half. So it would, the 67 and 15 wasn't even that high over the over-under. I thought somebody was going to be dominant in the East and it turned out it was Milwaukee. And Milwaukee is going to go, you know, 63 and 19 or 62 and 20 or something. But I'm just, I've said this a couple of times.

I'm going to say it to you because I think you were the first person that I ever heard use this phrase. And then I stole it liberally, which I don't feel bad about because, you know, we all steal from each other. But the Celtics team really hurts my feelings. They've hurt my feelings. Like yesterday against Denver, Monday night,

you know, it was just, they just fall apart in the fourth quarter and it just hurts my feelings. I don't want to talk about the Celtics. I just wanted to get that on the record that, uh, that I blame you. I didn't really want to do bad news, Bill. I felt like an actress in the late seventies being forced to like get into my bra for a horror movie scene or something. I didn't feel great about it.

I didn't talk to my agent. All of a sudden you have the bad news bill costume on me. And then I'm talking out of my ass. I was going to do this one thing. We're going to do this one extra thing. You came and did a full show. Yeah. We're going to tape one segment for another show.

And you were kind of there and you're like, I guess, I guess we'll do that. Like, oh no, you've got a costume. Oh, okay. Yeah. It was not consensual. It was not, it was a non-consensual segment. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a huge regret for me. What, how has Jalen changed? I haven't worked with Jalen, um,

day to day now for four years and you know, I've talked to, he's obviously been on this podcast a few times. I've talked about his quirks from time to time, his ability to fall asleep on an airplane as soon as he sits down, his weird eating habits, his ability to talk to pedestrians who come up to him and be totally gracious while never stopping his walk. He just constant motion, all the quirks. Has he had, does he have any new quirks from the last three to four years? You know what?

And this is both a positive and a negative. He's just become such a better person. And I attribute a lot of this to Molly. Yeah. He's settled down. You know what I mean by also a negative? He's just calmer. You know what I mean?

You know where he is all the time. Yeah. He works seven days a week. He's got a very structured lifestyle. He's on the literally works like six days a week and probably travels on the seventh. So it's like, he's just very structured life here. And he lives kind of outside the city. I won't say where,

but it's got like a driveway and like a lawn, you know, he's, he's like, he's, he's definitely settled. Let's just say he's a much more settled person. But you missed the old Jalen.

Yeah. I would say like, I'd say five years ago, if I told my wife, like, I'm going to go to dinner with Jalen. Yeah. I would say like, I'd say five years ago, if I told my wife, like, I'm going to go to dinner with Jalen, she would be like, Oh,

okay. You'll probably be home at like two in the morning. And like, you know, and, and just like sort of make a mess and fall over yourself. And then like, you'd be nothing the next day.

And now if I'm like, Hey, I'm going to dinner with Jalen. She's like, cool. I'll see you at like eight o'clock. You know? Wow.

Yeah. Things have changed. Has he, has he gotten more old man on the couchy with stuff with the like

too many these teams are shooting too many threes any of that stuff oh no no no no no not that

no no no he's not that he's not that he's not that but another thing has changed is like I've been trying

to get him to like play basketball for about a year and a half now and I have not it has not happened. Cause he's old.

He no longer plays basketball. Like I was like, I was like, you love, I love basketball. You love to watch basketball. That's my new dig for him. Oh, that's yeah. That's painful. Cause he played basketball his whole life. He had one of the great old man pickup games I've ever seen, if not the greatest.

Just the, the constant spin moves, just spinning, spinning, spinning, and then he ends up with a five-foot lefty hook against anyone. I always say, if you Google Jalen Rose highlights, nothing comes up. He doesn't have signature highlights. There's no big crossovers or dunks on people or like even anything that's like particularly athletic or impressive. But if you look at his stats, like somehow he got 25 points every single game. Yeah.

None of them were remarkable. Yeah. He was, he was good for, especially there in the Indian years, like 22 and seven, 22 and eight, whatever.

Uh, yeah. So you guys have been doing this show now. What an hour a day now for what? Three and a half years, four years. well i'm not good at recollection but uh we moved to an hour i think like uh five months ago so it was a half an hour so it was a half hour but it was still you would tape them long and then cut it down

yeah if you tape them long and then put some podcast exclusive stuff because you can't just like repurpose your TV show as a podcast. But now we're an hour every day, ESPN2 at 2 PM. So give me, give me the non-basketball sports that, uh, what, what's Jalen the wobbliest with hockey, soccer? Soccer and then hockey. He pays attention to college basketball, baseball, the big three American sports. But like even to college basketball, baseball, the big three American sports.

But like even me with hockey, it's like, I don't even know who's good right now. But for like the Stanley Cup finals, I pick a team

and like get involved. But that's about it. My theory with hockey is that the diehard hockey fans pushed everyone else away. They didn't want us. They didn't want casual fans.

Being a soccer fan is like that too. Like if you're like trying to talk soccer with your soccer fan friends, like they just make you feel like you're not welcome. Yeah. I was like, all right,

well, thanks guys. Yeah. They, they, they were fine without us. I didn't know Luke Haku got transferred. Like,

oh my bad. I thought, I thought Luke Haku was still on this team. You know, it's like, all right guys. Mbappe. Mbappe.

Yeah. They're just good. They don't want the sport to get any bigger. They like having their other diehards to talk about, and everybody else can fuck off. That's the attitude of soccer. I always called it the, I remember I wrote about this 10 years ago, and I called it the status quo, something like the quest for the status quo, or keep the status quo. We don't want, I think it bothers the real diehard crazy soccer fans. If like you and I talked about the champions league right now for five minutes, somebody's

driving, go, no, no, no. Stay away. Stay away from that. No. Yeah. Um, which is fine. Cause we have basketball to talk about. You had a Damon Jones on.

Big news. Told the soup story. TMZ wrote about it. You had Damon Jones on. Big news. Told the soup story. TMZ wrote about it. You got a TMZ story. I walked into a meeting today and then one of the guys was like, congratulations on being at TMZ.

And I was just like, oh God. I was like, oh no. What did Jalen do? The headline's going to be like, man spends $20,000 on golden tea in three months. You know?

I was like, oh no. What could this possibly be? Like, three kids neglected golden tea scores lower and lower every day. I was just terrified of something. But it was really just Damon Jones coming on the show because I asked him about soup. Obviously, when you know Damon Jones is coming on the show, you're like, the first thing that comes to mind is I have to ask him about the soup thing with Jarrett Smith. You don't know how he's going to be. So I had him in the rundown. He sat down in the chair, and I was like, look, man, we don't have to ask him about the soup thing with J.R. Smith. You don't know how he's going to be. So I had it in the rundown.

He sat down in the chair, and I was like, look, man, we don't have to talk about this, but you know I have to ask you about the soup. So I gave him an opt-out. Because you do this a lot. You really want to talk to somebody about something, but you don't know if you want to mention it beforehand. It's kind of like asking if you can kiss somebody. You know what I mean?

It can kind of go one of two ways. Back when you know, like back when you were a million years ago, we were both single. It's like, do you say like, Hey, can I have a kiss? Like, it's just kind of corny. You should probably just like lean in and do it. So I asked him and he was like, yeah, man, I'm ready to talk about the soup. So then we asked him about the soup and it turns out my main question was, did he throw the bowl at the soup? Cause I watch a lot of reality television. And you know, if you're going to throw a drink at somebody, you're really just throwing the contents of the drink at somebody. You're not throwing the glass or the cup or the bowl. No.

And then my real question was, because in my mind, J.R. Smith threw the bowl as well. Just because that's who J.R. Smith is. He's committed. And that was the question. It turns out that he did throw the bowl as well. And Damon Jones offered that it was a full, not just was it a full bowl of chicken tortilla soup, it was the first,

he used the term ladle, like the first ladle, which is a weird vocabulary term for Damon Jones to pull. It was like the very freshly ladled. So it was a brand new hot soup that was very hot all over his chest and shoulder and on the wall. I mean, that almost sounds like a criminal offense. I mean, it sounds like you could have light burns.

Yeah. But you could never treat yourself for them because you can't go to the hospital and be like, so what happened? It's like, well, J.R. Smith threw a bullet. He threw a French onion at me. Yeah, it was chicken tortilla. It was chicken tortilla. Oh, chicken tortilla. That's right.

I forgot. Well, that's cool. At least we solved that. Yeah, we solved that. And I was like, Damon, like, man, when did you talk to him? Like, that would take me a few days. And he was like, oh, three months. Three months we didn't talk.

Wow. JR, complicated guy. I know you watched The Bachelor season. The Colton fence jump. See, I know you're on the show every day with Jalen and he just doesn't care and he doesn't want to talk about one of the great athletic feats we've ever seen.

Did you... Well, it's also like this is one of the reasons I'm really no longer the czar of reality TV because I have to. I feel obligated to watch sports at night. Right. So I only get select reality TV viewings. Right. But you saw this. I had to be very picky. Yeah, I saw the fence jump. It was basically the Bo Jackson moment

for reality TV that we never knew we wanted, which we've had before. I feel like CT carrying bananas on his back was way up there as well. Just a superhuman feat. But this one, we really topped it.

And it really ended up saving a horrific Bachelor season. The fence jump, it was like having a Hail Mary in a bad football game that, you know, that all we remember now is the Hail Mary. Really what I think this fence jump was is anyone who's watched the Bachelor and Bachelor franchise as closely as we have is it's become like a bit where chris harrison promises the most shocking thing or they tease

something that's happening ambulance that pulls up or they they tease it's kind of like uh what was it pt barnum used to put like a big sign says like the great egress this way in the middle of his circus tents and egress actually means exits it's like you're teasing something that never pays off it just kind of keeps you moving. Yeah. But this, all of those like fake teases in the last decade of this franchise, we're all leading up to this,

like the tease that actually pays off. Yeah. I agree. And, and they, and what's weird is they showed it in the trailer, but it still had real impact. It'd be like,

if you showed a hail Mary that hadn't happened yet during a football season but then everybody's still blown away by the Hail Mary. Do you think he lost his virginity in the Coitus Suite? I love how you call it Coitus. What?

The Coitus Suite. I did that for you. But Coitus is even better. I do not. I'm still sort of like a virginity truther with Colton. I'm still just like, he probably did at some point. It's a weird thing to hold off on, especially as a football player, when you've had a handsome football player has had loads of opportunities.

It's just a weird thing to have intense focus toward preserving. To be like one of the top four college football players for four years on campus, it would be hard not to coitus as you would say. Coitus is your word. I'm just using your word. Yeah. It's coitus is how you say it though, Bill. Coitus. Yeah, but coitus is funny. Coitus is what you get after you sleep with somebody in the jacuzzi on top of the roof of the Jersey shore house. That's coitus. Coitus is the word.

Coitus is much funnier. It is. It sounds gross. Like I tested positive for coitus. It's like, oh no, I'm going to put a hazmat suit on. Well, I don't know. Can you give the listeners three things you miss about working with me four years later? We spent four intense years together.

What are the top three things you miss? Oh God. All right. Number one. Bill's weird salad orders. Bill gets salads. Like, you know, we all go to these places. They're like, oh, salads.

You can kind of choose your own salads. They have their pre-made 15 salads on the board. And those are all like salads that have been sussed out. Chefs have been involved. They're like the balance of food and pH balances are all like well done Bill goes rogue most people do go rogue but we use like

certain themes like oh I'm just gonna get like chicken with some like you know southwestern sauce and onions and peppers like we kind of like make a sensible thing

Bill goes yeah I'll take some beets I'll take some steak and some feta cheese and then like vinegar it's just like the weirdest mixes of food. I never took steak.

It's so weird. I don't eat meat for lunch. It was usually, it's beets, carrots, falafel, cucumbers. No, you're misremembering. You used to go steak, buddy. Yeah, I guess it was a while ago. Well, that was when we were playing basketball. I needed the red meat.

All right, so that's one thing. Weird salad orders. Weird salad orders. Meetings, like other leaders might schedule meetings 10 days ahead of time and have a structured agenda and keep things to an hour and things like that. You know what I mean? No. But Bill would have impromptu meetings that would be about like, hey, what do you think we should do with Grantland? You know? What are your plans for the next year, Jacoby? I'm just like, like, what do you think we should do with Grantland? You know, you know, like what are your plans for the next year? Jacoby?

I'm just like, man, let me, let me get prepared for this. The impromptu super important meetings and then the super lead time unimportant meetings. Yeah. There was like a reverse, there was a reverse relationship to how important the meeting was and how much preparation you were given for it. Fair. It's, I, I don't know whether that's a criticism or a compliment, but I'll take it either way. I think it's true.

And then I have to do like one, like actual nice one, even though it's like against my personality, what my heart wants to do. Yeah, that's not. I know. I know. But the people, you were such a good, just, you're just such a good professional general manager. Just bringing, it wasn't even just the time spending with you.

It was just the people that you would bring around me. You have to remember, when I was hired at Grantland, you were the only person I knew. Yeah. And now I've got dozens of friends for life because the group that we had together was so good. I appreciate that. Well, we have a really important topic. I'll give you my quick things that I miss working with you. You're the only person I know who loves soup more than I do.

Oh, I had a great vegetable minestrone today by Chloe. Oh, so good. You are one of the few people I know who really appreciates when somebody is great at a relatively mundane job, um, whether it's somebody that we're playing pickup basketball with or somebody who's a clerk at, um, not a clerk,

a cashier at, what was that place you took me to the greatest cashier of all time? The Michael Jordan, the Michael Jordan of cashiers. I don't even, it's, it's called flavors, but there's multiple locations. So if

someone in Manhattan was trying to find this goddess of cashierdom, they would not be able to locate her. Well, you told me we went to this place and you were like, I've been fascinated by this person for years. They're the best I've ever seen at what they do. And you'll understand when you watch. And then we were in line and all of a sudden she was taking credit cards from like two different customers at the same time while also boxing seven different soups from five different people. Opening up bags, opening up the bag, you know, the big like wrist flip that someone does to open up a paper bag. She's got that. It was really, it was one of the great things ever. And then the third thing,

just really fun to run the high screens with you. Yeah. Back in the day. I've been playing hoops with you. So I have to replace that to the fourth thing. You're the only person that I had in my life who could stay up as late as I wanted to play Blackjack. Everyone else quits on me around four o'clock. No way.

Yeah. That was it. It was just two of us. At Blackjack, like, you you know the thing is like if you like really care about blackjack they're like here's the thing if you're winning leave like one way to lose money is to play blackjack for like 10 hours i'm like cool cool cool cool get it i totally get it i understand get it got it all right that's how i play blackjack though and if that's gonna hurt my earnings that's fine with me. But that's my technique. Stay for

10 hours. You're like, I'd rather play until when somebody looks into my eyes, there's nothing there. Yes. It's just an abyss. I want to play blackjack to the point where I have to cancel plans for the next 48 hours because I'm not the same.

Alright, we're going to take a quick break then and I have a very important question for you. Let's take a break, talk about Yahoo Sports. There are a few heartbreaks, a few surprises, and now it's time for the madness. If you haven't done so already, head to Yahoo Sports, fill out a free bracket before games tip off tomorrow. This year, America's best bracket is worth $1 million.

That's America's best bracket, not America's most perfect bracket. You just need to have the best one. That's a free contest for a chance to win1 million. That's America's best bracket, not America's most perfect bracket. You just need to have the best one. That's a free contest for a chance to win a million. Only at Yahoo Sports. There's no wrong way to fill one out except for not filling one out at all. Download the Yahoo Sports Fantasy app.

Complete yours today or get picking at yahoo.com slash best bracket. The tournament tips tomorrow. So it's not too late. And check out Against All Odds with Cousin Sal because they're doing their big March Madness show this week. And also check out One Shining Podcast with Titus and Tate. They've been breaking down the brackets

and doing a whole bunch of stuff for us all week. So there you go. All right, here's why I had you on after 25 minutes of foreplay. It struck me recently as I watched LeBron's bizarre 2019 season and the fall of somebody that is in the conversation for the GOAT. I'm still not ready to put him ahead of Michael Jordan, but just the abruptness of it and how he looks the same, but something has clearly changed. Opponents are less afraid of him.

It really does feel like the beginning of the end. We got to assess this all on a big picture thing. Look backwards. Remember the great moments, the career arc. And it struck me that I've been going through this with another great athlete, another GOAT candidate that I've spent a lot of time thinking about, the one, the only Johnny Bananas. And so I started thinking about the parallels between LeBron and Johnny Bananas. Now, Johnny Bananas has won six challenges, right?

LeBron has only won three titles. But LeBron, if you count the MVPs, it's right around the same level of all the finals trips. It's right around the same level of excellence. Equally decorated. Equally decorated. Bananas comes to kind of prominence in 2006, or 2005-2006 range for the Real World Key West, that's where we met this person, and then goes into the challenge the next year, makes the final of Inferno 3

that went from April 10, 2007 through July 10, 2007. Who else made the finals during that stretch to Kobe for the first time? That'd be LeBron James. I mean, if you want me to start pulling things from 2007 from reality TV, you're really talking to the wrong person. I'm saying that was when LeBron James made the 2007 NBA finals. Oh, sure. Yeah.

I think it meant who had bananas facing the finals. And I was like, Bill, you know me well enough to know that I don't have that kind of. They rise to prominence. He wins. He ends up winning two things later. Ends up winning six. Makes two more finals. His last thing that he won was the Challenge Rivals 3.

That was when he double-crossed Sarah. Sarah. Yeah. The legendary moment. The timeline for that one, May 4th to August 3rd, 2016. Hmm. What else happened during that stretch? LeBron James' only Cleveland title.

Came back from three and one. It was his only title, but it was also sort of his most notable, notorious title. His most famous title. It solidified his legacy and personality, much like the Cleveland title did for LeBron. Most famous title. Johnny Bananas has not won since. LeBron has not won since. And all of this leads to this season where Bananas has an embarrassing performance in

War of the Worlds. Everyone's targeting him right away. For the first time, he's really hearing barbs constantly about his age. It's time for him to go. It's a new generation in town. His old rival, Wes, comes in and just turns the tables on him and basically gets him kicked out of the house. He's gone in three episodes.

LeBron isn't going to make the playoffs. I don't know who his, who's LeBron's version of Wes? Well, I, in, and you did tease this topic for my appearance and that was one of the questions I had there is no Wes for LeBron it's not Durant

there just isn't if any it's not Durant because Durant is sort of like from a little bit different generation yeah

but it could be currently Durant because Wes did use other people other stars to group up against Bananas singularly

so there are some parallels there but sort of like that's for this season but in terms of like the breadth of the career there is no sort of like apples to apples who is Wes but there's one thing that I've noticed that really kind of like paired these two

and where they are in their current careers is about two years ago after their big championships, they kind of both saw this coming and started proclaiming themselves as the GOAT. You know? Self-promotion. Bananas has done this. There's a thing, when you're at the peak of your powers

you're not you're not looking back at your career perspective and sort of cementing your legacy verbally you know and like LeBron has started to do that too

like LeBron has basically said I'm the greatest of all time remember he did that interview with like all of his friends like Mav and everybody he was like that title in Cleveland

that's the one right there that made me the greatest of all time which is like just said it out loud and bananas will say it to anybody who will listen that he's the greatest of all time. And once you start doing that, you kind of know that you're, you know, it's the twilight

of your career. Well, and then we have, you could talk maybe the last year or so, maybe taking their eyes off the prize a little bit. Bananas gets this NBC show. Oh yeah, they both are completely pivoted to entertainment. They're both trying to be more than just Bananas is trying to be more than the guy from the Challenge. LeBron is trying to be more than

just a basketball player. Dowling and all these different things as is Bananas. Maybe losing, taking their eye off the prize a little bit. And then, I don't know what Bananas' version of moving to LA and playing for a Lakers team. That's being run by,

uh, by, by a bunch of shaky people. I mean, it's, it's bananas is now it's almost like, Oh, here's one for you.

Yeah. This is, I didn't prepare this one. Like, I think what bananas looks at TJ, how LeBron looks at Magic. Just ride with me. Ex-athlete, ex-professional athlete turned television host. And he's looking at Magic like, okay, former professional athlete turned media mogul businessman.

That's the second phase of my career because bananas is like, I don't know if I can be jumping off a rigged truck through rings of fire and arguing with 24 year olds from Sussex, England for the rest of my life. But do what I can do. I can toss a break. I can welcome you back in from break, you know?

And I feel like TJ to magic, bananas to LeBron. And by the way, similar impact, TJ and Magic. TJ taught... I mean, Magic was probably a little bit more decorated in terms of an athlete. Just a tiny bit, tiny bit. A little bit more, yeah. Just a tiny bit, but...

I mean, you can make an argument either way, but like we could agree that Magic is probably a more celebrated professional athlete than TJ Lavin. And just slightly more famous. But TJ, without TJ, we would not have two generations of people that would know it's not okay to quit. Yeah.

I don't think Magic... I mean, he's really kept it alive. Yeah, from TJ, I learned never quit. Never quit. The other thing that LeBron and Bananas had to deal with, LeBron had to deal with this influx of foreign players, right? This new generation of people that are taking the game to a different level and all these new innovations and all these three-point shots.

And now a perimeter player like James Harden or Steph Curry can dominate a basketball game without overpowering it like somebody like LeBron does, Bananas has to deal with the influx of the Brits, which has been the way the challenge has really reinvented himself. They looked at, they were like, basically we've run out of the types of people who can be both competitive, super confrontational, ready to party all the time, and ready to have sex with anybody, they'd almost like tapped out that pool.

And they looked around and they said, what if we went to the UK? And now they're just importing these people left and right. And it's a farm system that has reinvigorated the show, Jacobs. I think another parallel to that point would be they've both seen multiple eras of their sport and they were built for both of them. Let me explain.

You remember the early challenge days, it was just like goofy. You know what I mean? Let's get a block of ice out there, put everybody in bikinis and have them dry hump the thing until it melts and you get a little prize in the middle. And now it's essentially like, you know, it really is like a real sport.

You have to train for three months for it, like show up in shape. You know what I mean? And I think that would be like the pre sort of like pace and space three point warriors era that LeBron has adjusted his game to be in. And Johnny has adjusted his game for both as well. But now it's gotten to the point where they're both kind of looking at what the future is and realizing they're not a part of it. So who has a better chance of resurrecting this, Bananas or LeBron? I think this is a great question. Well, to go back a little bit, and I'm going to full circle this, is some of Banana's championships, he won with teams like Kenny, Evelyn, Derek, these sort of alliances. And that was kind of like the Heat era for LeBron.

And I would say that him and Sarah sort of being a partnership, and him and Camila, that was kind of like the Cleveland Cavaliers era. And for both of them to be successful, they can no longer carry a single partner. They can no longer be the engine behind their team to a championship. So LeBron and Johnny both looking at themselves in the mirror very hard and long, which is hard to do, are going to have to say, I can't do this by myself. Like he does need an influx of younger talent. Both of them do to stay relevant and to even put themselves in contention. So then he also, Bananas always had his crew of like Evan and Kenny who got kicked off the show. Leroy, who's basically the Carmelo of the situation.

And that generation is now getting phased out too. Like all of his peers are now no longer like guys who could win a championship except for Chris Paul. And even weirder, what was LeBron's crew called with Chris Paul and Carmelo? The Banana Boat Club? Yeah. Oh, whoa, whoa.

Yeah. Banana. Did you just think of that? Yeah, I just thought of it right now. Are you writing off of notes? Oh, whoa, whoa. Yeah. Banana. Did you just think of that? Yeah, I just thought of it right now. Are you writing off of notes? No, I didn't. Are you writing off of notes? I just thought of it right now.

Did you prepare for this? Banana's in there. Did you just think of that? There's links left and right. You're brilliant. Two of the greats. And then the other thing with LeBron, even though bananas is the goat, I still feel like CT on his best day is the greatest thing I've ever seen.

That's a really good point you know with lebron i guess that doesn't apply with lebron because lebron at his peak was better than anybody the last i'll tell you i'll tell you what it is do you know who ct is who alan ivers interesting. It's like, he's just like a little cooler, a little scarier. He's kind of like what you want to be. You know what I mean? Like, you kind of, you want to have the record of Johnny Bananas. You want to have the accolades of Johnny Bananas. But you really want to be CT. I thought you were going to say Duncan.

You want to be Iverson. Because Duncan had, you know, he won more titles and was consistently winning throughout and ended up beating a better team in the series in 2014 with LeBron. Maybe it's a combo of the two. This is good. This was exactly the discussion I wanted to have. LeBron and Bananas. I think Bananas has a better chance to win a title than LeBron is my

take. Because no way, I think it's going to be too hard to rebuild this Lakers team. And I also think it's going to be too hard for him to learn the kind of talent that he would need to rebuild it. And I think he's running out of time. He's heading towards 60,000 minutes. Like yourself,

just our willingness narrative into the earth. I think you guys are just willing this into the air. Like this whole, like, Oh LeBron, the free agents don't want to come play for LeBron. Like, oh, really? Who said that? What person said that?

Paul George. How's that a thing? Like, really? We should have got two max slots. You're telling me they're going to stay empty? They had a max slot last year. Nobody signed that. Chris Middleton doesn't want to come to the Lakers.

Chris Middleton? I think that you, no matter who you are, you're a Celtics fan. You were a Celtics fan in the 80s, just like I was. You have this anti-Laker thing deep, deep, deep down

in your heart and your subconscious. Yeah. And you have an anti-LeBron thing from the Cavs days. I get this. I get who you are.

You're trying to speak this into existence. This whole, like, anti-LeBron wave that has started the last two weeks is baffling to me. Sure, the season

didn't go the way they wanted to, but, like, let's not sleep on when LeBron, before he got hurt, LeBron was in the MVP conversation. The numbers this year, he's getting like 25-8-8. It's like, oh no, he's done.

That guy's done. Yeah, I can't win a championship anymore. Players don't want to play with him. You keep preaching. You keep preaching. Because you know I'm a LeBron guy. I believe in LeBron. And I believe that it might not be Anthony Davis,

but at least, at least like one, $1 player and a couple of quarter players are coming or one, $1 player and a couple of one year contracts to clear, clear for Anthony Davis after he's done wherever the hell he's going to play next year. The one thing we've learned with sports, when it ends,

it ends badly. And it happens every time. And it's going to happen to Tom Brady. I don't know when it might not be till he's time. And it's going to happen to Tom Brady. I don't know when. It might not be until he's 65, but it's going to happen to him too. Sorry, Kyle. Earmuffs, Kyle.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably true. At some point, it just had, like Peyton Manning, it was the same thing. It was like, ah, Peyton Manning. He'll just do this forever.

And then all of a sudden, he couldn't throw 15 yards downfield. And it was over. And then nobody wanted to sign him and it was inconceivable, but that's how it played out. I don't, I think LeBron, you know, the fact that he can still be as good as he is offensively, I think is still gonna matter. But I also think that there's so much talent in the league right now that

it's, it's not like it was in 2007 when you could make the finals with Delonte West and, you know, Eric Snow and all the other guys. Oh, gosh, those days are over. Like,

like, Drew Gooden. Drew Gooden. Yeah. Like look at Philly. Philly's got Embiid, Simmons, Tobias Harris, Jimmy Butler, J.J. Redick.

They're just loaded. They might not even make the Eastern Finals. I think all four of those guys outside of Redick, sorry, J.J., colleague of yours, I know, you could build a team around any one of those players. Yeah, they could at least be the second best guy. But it's like any one of those players you feel like you could fill with four really good role models. Like, yeah, sure. Playoff team contenders.

Yeah, it is. The league's loaded. I also, I don't trust the people running the Lakers at all. And I think they've done a bad job for this whole decade and they've shown no signs other than the fact that they had the wherewithal to get LeBron, that they can put together a master plan.

The Davis thing was botched, but all this stuff's really fun to talk about. There's always something to talk about with the NBA these days. Always. Dude, last thing on Jalen. What's going on with his social media? He's just getting weird?

What's going on? What's going on with him? Jalen is, here's a good parallel yeah early in the twitter days me and kevin wiles were just like bill you're gonna be great at twitter you're a natural writer it's just like it's this really fun space you can only write 140 characters like that was like a weirdest thing you can only write 140 characters yeah and you just have these thoughts you just kind of put them out there like nothing really really happens. It's just like a fun place. Like scroll while you're pooping.

Yeah. And you're like, no, no, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. Talk me into it. And then when you signed up for it,

it, it, it just took off so fast. Yeah. It was just like, it was a flame to gas. And I feel like Jalen has done that recently with Instagram and I'm a hundred percent here for it so much I just I just love it because I know every time when I say goodbye to him and he leaves

that I'm still gonna see him four or five times later that day so he's done the thing where he got super competitive and fixated on improving whatever situation was with something. And now he has devoted those attentions to Instagram. Yes. I'm here for it as well. I'm here for it. Every time, you know, when you look at stories, there's like an algorithm that like pushes

whichever ones are like the first ones there. Yeah. Like Jalen's just constantly right there for me. Always. Always, always, always. Where would you put Jalen's Instagram against my dad's Twitter? I mean, that's not fair.

That's not fair. Your dad's Twitter is my favorite thing going right now on social media. With the anti-Kyrie thing, with the good riddance at the end, I just bookmarked that because I know like after Kyrie, Kyrie scores 10 points,

the last two minutes of a game when they're down six to like will them to a six game victory over the Sixers and like round two of the playoffs. I'm just going to just refresh your dad's feed for him to walk that back. I can't wait. I don't think he realizes that the tweets live on for eternity. I think he, I think he thinks they just vanish after six minutes. That's fine.

I'm here for it, too. He's very traumatized by the Celtics season, though. Hopefully things will get better. There's only 11 games left. And it's all your fault because you made me do the bad news bill thing. No, that was totally my fault. I know how you feel about

jinxes and reverse jinxes and everything and you were I think in that moment you could see it on your face that you were just like so proud of this team

and this team on paper but before you get rid of me I do have a question for you like this is something I've been asking myself for the entire the entire season

I'm looking at myself in the mirror and it's hard to say this I have no idea who at myself in the mirror, and it's hard to say this. I have no idea who is good in the Eastern Conference. Like, which of these four teams is going to win the Eastern Conference? I literally have no idea.

I would give 25% chance to all four teams in the Eastern Conference. Sorry, Indiana Pacers fans. I would probably... I would probably lower the Celtics' odds a little bit. So if you had to dole out 100 percentage points to those four teams that we all think could come out of the East,

how would you allocate those? Well, the funny thing is I could do this and then a week later, the percentages could be totally different, right? That's what I've been doing all year long. Because right now it's, the Bucks are plus 180, Toronto's plus 275,

the Celtics are plus 325, and so is Philly. My whole thing is, when in doubt, bet on the best player. Giannis is the best player. So that's who I would pick. So I would say 40% Milwaukee, 25% Toronto and then like 20% Philly 15% Boston

something like that right now but I can change my mind tomorrow yeah I probably wouldn't have the Bucs so high I think Brogdon was

kind of important for them especially defensively and they've got some spots where you're kind of like 7 game series when everyone kind of gets magnified and exposed

and like the next thing you know you've got like you know you're kind of like seven-game series when everyone kind of gets magnified and exposed. And, like, the next thing you know, you've got, like, you know, Lopez getting switched on to, you know, like a quick guard and, you know, 60 possessions in a game. Like, you know, things like that can happen, which is kind of why I think the Bucs aren't exactly my favorite. The Brogdon thing worries me, but I'm assuming he'll be back by round two, right? Because they don't need him for round one.

Maybe back by game three of round two, but really back, back, back? I don't know. Yeah, you're right. I should lower that. I thought he'd be back by round two, but maybe if it's longer than that. I agree with you. I think he's probably either 3A or 3B with Bledsoe. But he just, when you watch him, he makes so many clutch plays for them.

It's really hard to think how they would replace that in a playoff series. He's a good defender, which is important in playoff series. I like Toronto's five. I worry about the bodies of some of those guys holding up. That would be my fear with them. Like, can Kawhi hold up? What about Gasol? Kyle Lowry, he just got hurt two days ago.

But always seems to have some sort of injury in whether they could keep those guys. You know, it's pretty grueling. You need young bodies at some point. It's great, though, and I love- What do you think about Isaiah Thomas- What? What do you think about Isaiah Thomas sliding into the Celtics DMs last night?

It wasn't a slide. It was, I think he barged. It's like, whoa. This is getting weird, dude. He misses it. I feel bad when he clearly really loved it in Boston and really misses the relevancy that he had. But when he says stuff like,

if I had stayed, we would have won a championship. It's just, he just seems like an insane person because when he left, he hasn't been healthy since. So they definitely wouldn't have won a championship. I think if he, if he had phrased it, like if I had been able to stay healthy and I had stayed here, I think we would have won a championship, but it's almost like he forgets that he hasn't been healthy in two years. So I don't know. I feel bad. And I think the Celtics, the way that when they were playing him when he was

injured, and God knows what happened on that front, but he's never been the same since he gutted it out in that playoff run. And the sister, there was just so much going on. Oh, my God. I just feel bad. I hope he can there was just so much going on there. I hope he can come back. I feel like Danny Ainge would just look at him and be like,

they offered us Kyrie Irving. I know, sorry about that. I mean, it was like, it was Kyrie Irving. We loved you. We planned on backing up the Briggs truck. It was like you wanted, but they offered us Kyrie Irving. I know, but we'll never know how hurt they knew that he was.

They definitely knew he needed some sort of surgery because that was why the deal almost got held up. But my question is, could he reinvent himself as a Lou Williams type of player on a really good team? Could he be, once his body gets healthy, could he be a 25 to 26 minute instant offense, can completely swing a game and potentially be a crunch time guy every once in a while

for a team that needs somebody like that? I think he could, but I don't know how healthy he is. But my problem is like, I really think he's going to get another minimum contract next year. He's going to get like another one year minimum contract. He's looked really bad. He looked bad last night, too.

All right, Jacobes. What time is Jalen and Jacobi on? ESPN 2, every day at 2. You can also subscribe to the podcast every single day, Monday through Friday. And you're not, there's no reality. You're not doing any reality TV at all. Oh, I'm absolutely obsessed with Vanderpump Rules.

No, but you're not talking about it anymore. This is a safe space, right? Yeah. I've seen every single episode of Lindsay Lohan's Beach Club. Every single one. Every single one. Tough times.

Not sure that one's getting renewed for season two. I'm not sure she's sober. Yeah, it's not great. Jacobes, a pleasure as always. I will talk to you soon. Thanks so much. Thank you.

Hey, Hulu's paying some of the league's best players a lot of money to do some pretty crazy stuff. Joel changed his nickname from The Process to Joel. Hulu has live sports and bead. Damian Lillard got a process to Joel Hulu has live sports and bead. Damon Lillard got a tattoo that says Hulu has live sports. Clearly they want to know that Hulu has live sports. Hulu plus live TV offers 60 plus live and on-demand channels. Tons of shows and movies, exclusive originals. Get rid of cable. Switch to Hulu plus live TV for only $45 a month. Watch your favorite teams of the biggest games all season with no cable required.

Watch on the go and on all your favorite devices. Restrictions apply. Learn more at hulu.com. All right, on the line from the ringer, Shea Serrano, perfect time to calm. We not only have a big San Antonio Spurs resurgence, but a two-hour plus South American heist movie starring Ben Affleck and a bunch of other dudes on Netflix that I know he's watched more than once. Quickly,

just give me the 60 seconds on the Spurs comeback. We're winning the 2019 NBA championship, Bill. We saw proof of it last night. Big Davis stepping up late in the game. It's kismet. This is the year that we win it again. It's perfect. So you actually believe in this team now? Oh, I've never doubted them, Bill. Stop. Go back to the tape. Come on. No, you win nine games in a row. And who do we beat during that period? We beat the

Thunder. We beat the Warriors. Like, if you beat the Warriors, you're the championship favorite now. That's how it works. Well, what happened? Because like three weeks or three, four weeks ago when people were talking about the Western Conference, could Sacramento sneak in? Who might sneak

out? And there was a lot of buzz about San Antonio, the down arrows. It's just not looking good for them. So what changed? What's different about them? You know, that's a question that is probably above my pay grade. Okay. Because when they went on their annual rodeo road trip, that's usually like the moment when the team comes together and you figure out right then, is this team going to be good or bad? they went one and seven on that trip i believe yeah and everyone went oh okay then you know we're gonna either get the eighth seed or not be in the playoffs and that's fine and then the and then they run these nine games off in a row

and all of a sudden it's like did all of the mexican moms in san antonio gather together and light a bunch of fucking candles. And now we have the power. I don't know what happened, Bill, but I love it. I do know that. I mean, people are thinking Pop might retire at the end of the year. LaMarcus leaves. Just it had the beginning of the end kind of feel to it. But now it doesn't.

Amazing. Yeah, it did. Especially when that little news clip came out about LaMarcus telling Damien he thought about going back to Portland and playing with him again, which is great. Like, you know, LaMarcus put his time in.

He's played great for us these last two years or so, three years. But yeah, when that happened, everybody sort of felt like, all right, this is going to be a couple of down seasons for us. And then we feel great today, Bill. Well, I think you owe LaMarcus an apology. Oh, I've apologized to him on several occasions, but I will do it again.

Yeah, do it one more time. LaMarcus. Last time. LaMarcus, I apologize for dragging you through the mud during the playoffs after the Oklahoma City series. Yeah. You did not deserve that. The year after that, you had the after the Oklahoma city series. Yeah. You did not deserve that. You had the year after that, you had the best year of your career.

Yeah. And then this year you're holding us down again. You have done everything Spurs fans needed for you to do, and we will appreciate you for the rest of time. Thank you, Lamarcus. All right. Well,

good luck. It's, it's nice. It's, I'm glad that, I'm glad that pop's not, uh, not headed out of the league yet.

It's not, it of the league yet. It would be nice to see him at one more round. And I do feel like if it's Denver-San Antonio in round one, with how young that Denver team is, and the classic hasn't really been there before group, going against the old grizzled Spurs and Pop, that's a dangerous series for Denver. Speaking of great teams,

Ben Affleck, Oscar Isaac, Charlie Hunnam, Garrett Hedlund. What a transition. Pedro Pascal. What a transition. I'll just read the Wikipedia. It follows a group of former special operations soldiers who reunite to plan a heist job of a South American Crime Boss.

Right there I'm in. I don't even, you don't need to do anything else. You don't need to twist my arm. You don't have to sell me. I'm good. You gave me those five names in that plot. You've seen it how many times now? I have seen it five times now.

I mentioned this to you when we were texting when we were texting the other night I watched it the day it came out and I said I don't know if I like this movie I don't know if it does it for me let me watch it again

Thursday I watched it Saturday night I watched it I keep watching it over and over again trying to figure out what I don't like about it and what I do like about it it's

let me throw something out real quick before we get into the triple frontier thing because I feel like the universe is telling us something. You mentioned the Spurs playing the Nuggets in the playoffs. We won a championship one year when we played the Nuggets in the first round. I hope it happens again, Bill. It's all, it's all lining up. I'm just throwing that out there. So the interesting thing about triple frontier, it's Netflix and you have to choose to watch it. So you chose to watch it five times versus, you know,

if it was on HBO or Showtime or Cinemax, one of those things where you're just flipping channels and you just get continuously, continually sucked in. Right. This new era now of streaming, you really have to choose to get sucked in. I watched Triple Frontier once. I'm like you, I'm probably going back this weekend, I think, for seconds. Because I had some issues with it.

I also really like parts of it. And we'll get to the big twist a little bit later. Because if people haven't seen it yet, I don't want to ruin the movie. Okay. But first of all, I love when the movies... I love the movie where the guy's done, but they had to convince him to do one last job, which I feel like one, the one last job clause. Yes. This has been a running joke basically for 15 years. And now when a movie does it,

I feel like they're letting us in on it. They're like, we know this is the kind of movie you like. We're going to play this card here so you know that we've done basically the sampler of all the different things you guys like in a movie. So we're putting this in as a sign of good faith. Come stay with us. Come with us for the next two hours. This scene's in there. Do you feel like that's a staple in these movies now? Okay, that's actually one of the things I wanted to ask you about. Because when they do that, when that happens with the one last job thing, it does feel

like when movies do it now, it's just a little hat tip to the movies that have come before it. But I don't know if they were doing it in this movie on purpose or if they thought they were being clever. And there are two lines in the movie that make me feel like maybe this wasn't intentional. Oh, no. The first one.

The first one is in the beginning of the movie when Charlie Hunnam is giving his opening monologue about the price of being a warrior. And he says the line, I was the best of the best. And it's not like a jokey thing, like he's being serious. You have that line, which is like you don't want to write that into a movie because it's been like a jokey thing, like he's being serious. You have that line, which is like, you don't want to write that into a movie because it's been written into a movie a billion times. And then later on in the movie, when his brother talks, he's like, I didn't sign up for this. And if you got the, I didn't sign up for this and I was the best of the best, like, I feel like we're, I don't know. I feel like they weren't doing it on purpose at some point. And

that was part of the reason I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. So I saw the best of the best thing too. And I felt the same way I did about the one last job. I felt like it was a wink. Okay. Now, if it wasn't a wink. I'm going to trust you on this.

Well, here's the thing. If it's not a wink, then that means these guys have like never seen an action movie, but for some reason made an action movie. Like, right. Right. I felt like they made this movie as they looked at all the other action

movies and heist movies that have been made and tried to figure out how they could create something that combined a lot of the different things from those movies, but was its own unique movie, right? So they had some twist and we'll get to one of the twists at the end of this. But that's why I felt like the whole thing was a nod. It was them trying to recreate

almost like a buffet of all these different movies you and I have already seen 20,000 times. But I don't know who's right. I don't know. I felt like right after the Charlie Hunnam Price of being a warrior scene, when they cut to the helicopter and Metallica playing, I was like, I was 100% convinced

this was about to be the best movie I had ever seen in my life. That switch to that switch, I was like, yes was 100% convinced this was about to be the best movie I had ever seen in my life. That switch to that switch, I was like, yes, let's fucking go. The best of the best line was a hat tip. And then it just made a bunch of weird turns. Like, let me ask you a question, Bill. Who's the bad guy in this movie? So that's one of the flaws, right?

It's almost like the bad guys. Yes, definitely. The bad guys are pieces of each of the guys like and see that's the thing like we don't even get that we don't even get in fighting they raise their voice at each other a couple of times but there's no there's no like twist or pivot there's no knife in the back they just they do everything really well and they mess up once or twice and they just keep it moving. And I just, I was, I was missing it.

I was, by the third time I'm watching this movie, I'm looking at ways to, how do we make this movie better? What could we have done immediately? And I'm going to, can I throw a couple of them at you and you tell me yes or no? Yeah, let's hear it. Okay, real quick. I'll go, I'll go real quick. This is what I want to happen.

When they're in the house, when they're in the drug dealer's house and they're tearing up the walls and getting the money. Awesome scene. They have that light. Yeah, awesome scene. So much fun to watch that happen. I need one of two things here to happen. I need, number one, I need for them while they're digging the money out of the wall to find something in there that they were not expecting that lets them know immediately the stakes are so much higher than just robbing a drug dealer yeah like there's other shit going on end of watch did a great job of this when they went into the house and they found all of the bodies and they realized oh shit we're dealing with like human trafficking yeah cartel like this is you know what i'm saying yeah i need either that or or when when ben gives the whole thing about i I built 15 minutes in, we have a cushion. I need for the family to come home.

I need for Benny to get shot and die. And then the rest of the movie, we have Charlie Hunnam versus Ben Affleck. Charlie Hunnam was Benny's older brother in the movie. Like I need the conflict. There was no conflict, Bill. It just, that's where it lost me. So one thing I was thinking,

cause the first 40 minutes are pretty slow. It's a lot of like just setting up what's about to happen. And you talk about the bad guy thing and how they're stealing from this crime, the South American crime boss that we don't really have a feel for. We don't really hate him for any reason. I was thinking the two guys who

are the brothers, right? So you got Ben and then Redfly. Maybe there's a third brother that lived in Brazil and had dealings with these guys and the drug dealer killed the third brother. And that's the motivation for this versus just one last job. I heard a rumor there's a house with some cash in it. I'm with you. I felt like the, you know, like in Heat, which we made you watch, which I think you enjoyed with De Niro. I loved, I loved it. Those guys set up, you know, it was for them, it was about the juice. It was the action of robbing the different banks. That's what they love. So the, there was no bad guy. And that was kind of the point of the movie. In this movie, I think you needed a bad guy and you needed like,

I needed to root for them for more reasons than just, they just robbed this random drug dealer, you know? Yeah, exactly. There's no buildup. There's no, there's no punch. They killed Larea and you're like, oh's larea i didn't even know what he looked like he's dead okay sure now with that said there's some great scenes in this movie and i think that's why you probably kept going back and re-watching it and that's why i'm sure i'll re-watch it a bunch of times too the the the house full of money is out of control that that whole 10 minutes and then uh, uh-oh, guys are coming. It's way longer than you think it's going to be.

And it's just really, it's a really good like 11 minutes. I really, I like they're punching the walls in. It makes you think like, then it's like what we always talk about when you're putting yourself in the situation of the guys in the movie. Like how much money would you try to take?

You know, you have like 10 minutes. The bags, like how greedy would you get? So it had a lot of factors in it that I like. The helicopter scene was great when they just have to start throwing money out of the helicopter basically to make sure it doesn't crash. And then the crash thing was great.

It lost me a little, and now we're getting into spoilers, sorry. But it lost me a little when Affleck just starts shooting everybody in the village. Right. He did that quick. The guy pulled out a knife and he's like, 80, y'all gotta die right now. He's just gunning people

down. Affleck was supposed to be the guy that was the least heisty of all these guys, right? He was the toughest one to rope in. He seemed like he was a decent guy. He's just supposed to be the guy that was the least heisty of all these guys, right? He was the toughest one to rope in. He seemed like he was a decent guy. He's trying to be a realtor. He's trying to sell some condos, not really working out for him.

Hasn't been in the gym in a while. Needs to change his diet, maybe. But yeah, and then he kind of, then the flip switches. But I guess my biggest issue out of all this was these guys were kind of dumb. These guys were kind of- You think so? Yeah, I felt like they were dumb. I don't think they were dumb. I think we get a glimpse of how smart they are when the guys come home,

when they're robbing the house. Right. And they immediately come up with a plan, and're like we're gonna hunt and we're gonna kill quickly call out the kills so we don't get surprised i've never i'd never seen that in a movie they already knew how many guys were coming back so they knew how many to count for i thought that was really clever and really good i thought that's when the movie was going to take off was right after that i thought for the rest of the movie it's going to be like fucking lone survivor yeah it's just mayhem for the last hour and it didn't happen but i don't think they were i don't think they were dumb but you just made my point but that but

that's these were these great special ops guys right and that that scene in the house and you get to see it you're like oh shit these guys are fucking badasses. And then like 10 minutes later, they're too stupid to realize that the helicopter's going to crash if they don't get rid of some of the things. And then later on after that, the guy's burning money to set a fire, which all that's doing is just alerting everybody

where they are. It's like, wait, I thought you guys were special ops guys. You're fucking burning money in the mountains. What are you doing? So yeah, that's what I mean. He screwed that up. He screwed that up quick. The pilot was another one where he's like,

this is too heavy. We're not going to make it. And then they just say, it's got to make it. And he's like, oh, it'll make it. Right. Just leave some money. Just leave a little bit and you'll be fine. I don't know.

That part. So, and then then I now now we're in official spoiler mode sorry Kyle Kyle never saw it I'm sorry

we're ruining it for Kyle tough break for Kyle tough break for Kyle so Affleck gets shot oh mhm and and it's

it's a startling death scene and it and it kind of kind of makes the movie in a lot of ways. It was just not expected. I thought for sure he was going to be the hero. Okay, this is where you and I divert from each other. I didn't feel one single emotion when he died.

I didn't care about him in the movie. I didn't care about his relationship with his daughters. I wasn't surprised that he was the one who died because they do enough quick shots of the kid after Ben Affleck kills everybody. They do enough quick shots of the kid for you to know like, okay, this kid is going to do something. He's got that look in his eye. And after they make it out of the house and nobody dies, like that's the moment where either you send the movie spinning forward or everybody has to survive until we kill the main guy.

Like those are the only two options. Once they made it through the house, I was 100% certain Ben Affleck was going to die. I thought it would be a little more heroic than that, but I knew he was going down. Maybe it was the brutality of just, he's just, that's it. Boom. Shot in the head. He's out. Yeah.

Done. See ya. Another piece of evidence for you saying that maybe these guys weren't the smartest is Benny runs up on Affleck as soon as Affleck gets shot, and he tells him, he grabs him, and he's like, come on, come on. But he has a gigantic hole in his head already. Yeah, and his eyes are open. I don't think it's going to work out for you, Benny.

I think he's gone. So what's your move at that point because I don't care whether it's Ben Affleck whether it's you I don't care who it is in my life I'm just leaving you in the mountains at that point you're already dead where am I bringing you you're dead yeah I'm not carrying you the rest of the way

sorry that's two bags of cash I could be carrying I'm just like, that's it. You're done. It's not like you're going to take it personally. You're dead already. You have a big bullet in your head. So now I have to carry you through the mountains? If you do the quick math, there was, they said we stole 6,000 pounds of money, which equals up to $250 million, which means every million dollars is about 24, 25 pounds. Yeah.

So you're telling me I can either carry Ben Affleck's 180 pound body out of here. 180? He's like 250. He's 250 in this movie. If he's 250, then that's $10 million I'm choosing to leave behind. Like, no, thank you. What are you doing? I like Ben Affleck.

I loved him in Armageddon, but I'm going to take the $10 million every time. I just couldn't believe it. That goes back to these guys were just dumbasses and then they finally get to the beach. We're just trying to get to the beach. We're not sure why. Then we get to the beach and the guy's like, my guy's there in a boat.

But the guy's been there for five days waiting for them. I'm pretty sure he's going to give up by like day three. He was really, really patient. Yeah, you're in South America. It's 100 degrees. And at some point, you just kind of assume that these guys aren't showing up, right?

Day five, you're still holding out hope? This dude making whatever? He waited a ridiculous amount of time. Shout out that guy. I mean, maybe what we're dealing with here bill is maybe these guys just are more morally grounded than you and i are i felt the same way when i watched saving private ryan yeah and they sent the team in to save the one guy and they all died i was like why does it was this decision made i don't agree with it but

i think maybe you and i maybe we're just cowards that's all that is it's not maybe we're greedy cowards we would have left bad aflac and all that stuff they definitely set up a sequel which I'm ready for oh yeah

triple threat 2 quadruple frontier triple frontier 2 quadruple frontier quintu Sorry, Triple Frontier 2, Quadruple Frontier, Quintuple Frontier, Sextuple Frontier, the fourth one. I'm really interested in Sextuple Frontier.

So, my guess would be the drug lord is going to get his revenge in the sequel. Yeah, the other when she tells him, oh, this wasn't just Larea's money that y'all took

that's what that's what the sequel is Oscar Isaac goes back and gets the rest of the money they split it up amongst the team they show up

I don't know there were just so many ways Bill this movie should have been so so good like maybe you know the line when they're talking

and she tells them the house is the safe remember that line yep okay it would have been really line when they're talking and she tells them the house is the safe? Yeah. Remember that line? Yep. Okay. It would have been really great if they're in there and it turns out like the house actually is a safe. Not we're just hiding the money and the walls. But they're like, that's the security system.

The team goes in there. They start to load up the money. Boom. We get all these bars and gates that shoot up around it and they're trapped inside. And now they're in this cage with all of these other guys showing up to try to kill them. Like we could have done that. Oh, that's fun. I think if you bring, if you introduce one guy in who can just push everything sideways,

like a crazy guy, like if you put Ben Foster in this movie, Ben Foster's one of the all time great crazy eye guys. Yeah. Like 310 to Yuma, hell or high water. Like you introduce him into the mix and shit goes sideways. We needed that. It just went too smooth.

Yeah, I agree. One of the five guys should have been the loose cannon dude. There wasn't an official crazy over-the-top loose cannon. I was trying to think on Tea Time on Friday on Channel 33,

they were talking about who was bummed out that they weren't in this movie. And I think they... It was a great topic. Congrats to them. And they decided it was Chris Evans. But then they also mentioned how John Krasinski also was probably bummed out.

And that was my number one choice, was John Krasinski. I think he was just probably had his hands up in the air like, really? Not a call? Yeah, for sure. For sure.

They should have taken him out of the 13 Hours movie. He would have been great in this one. He would have been who we needed. Anybody else you would have thrown in? Ben Foster is my number one pick. That's a good one. I would also like...

I want a kind of slimy guy in there. All of these guys, when you're watching it, you didn't feel like anybody was going to turn on anybody. Yeah. So we need some good Hollywood slime balls. Ben Foster is definitely my first pick.

That's a nice one. I like it. Who won the movie for you? Oscar Isaac. Even though he screwed up the most amount of times in the most egregious ways, he's the reason Ben Affleck got killed.

I still love him. He's got a great face. The scene when he's riding on the back of the truck and we just get a shot of him scowling with his perfect jawline and his perfect stubble with a little bit of gray, you're like, I'm in love.

I love you, Oscar Isaac. I gotta say, I don't have a lot of experience with Oscar Isaac. And I was really impressed by him in this movie. Yeah, a lot of the movies he's made just weren't really on my radar. I watched them. I didn't really on my radar i watched him i didn't

really care this is the first time i really thoroughly was in on oscar isaac i felt like he won the movie as well and uh yeah you know i was trying to think like it would have been interesting if damon played that part almost as a favor to affleck to try to make sure you know affleck was going through some stuff the last couple of years to make sure, maybe just make sure he's spending some time with them, seeing if he's okay. And just as a favor, films this movie, and he's in the Oscar Isaac part. I think he would have been good.

I also think if they did the Ocean's Eleven kind of gimmick for this, and they just had five A-plus listers as the five guys, I don't know, that could have been fun too. You know, where it's just like, I guess it would be, who would it be? It would be Affleck, Damon, you know, Chris Evans. DiCaprio. Oh, DiCaprio.

Oh, so you're shooting even higher. Yeah, DiCaprio. Brad Pitt. I want a top level. Brad Pitt. Just get all of the guys from Ocean's Eleven plus Leonardo DiCaprio Brad Pitt top level Brad Pitt just get all of the guys from Ocean's Eleven plus Leonardo DiCaprio make Andy Garcia the bad guy and they're in South America yeah that's good well maybe that'll happen they're robbing a casino in South America

well I will say this this kept my streak alive of liking every South American heist movie I've ever seen. So at least that's intact. Absolutely. It had some flaws. And it was probably, I would say, 15 minutes too long. And I still don't understand why. I'm with you. I don't understand why there wasn't a bad guy.

But for the most part, an enjoyable time. Did this put Ben Affleck in a better or worse place career-wise or is he the same oh this is better this was this was a win for everybody involved in this movie even though it was not that great this is a solid this is a c plus movie this was like somewhere this was sicario 2 that's what this movie was. We needed, we needed the first Sicario. So I think it was, you know, add a couple points

for everybody involved. And were you excited to have Pedro Pascal in here? So we didn't have five white guys? Absolutely. I mean, Oscar Isaacs,

Guatemalan, Pedro Pascal, like, they were speaking Spanish in it and my heart was just growing inside my chest. It was beautiful. Tough, tough loss for your dude though.

Your dude could have been in this, your guy. Michael Pena? Your guy. He's your guy. I don't even have to say his name anymore. He's your guy. You don't have to say his name. Everybody knows it's Michael Pena.

Michael Pena, if you're listening, please know that you should be in every single movie all of the time. You are a perfect actor. All right. Shea Serato, as always a pleasure. When's Villains coming back? Is Villains coming back?

Villains is coming back. As soon as you tell me that I can do it, I'm doing it. I thought Villains was coming back. I thought I said we were doing it. Well, then we're doing it tomorrow. New episode tomorrow. Oh, and people can pre-order

your book. Yeah, we do. We have a movie book coming out October, but pre-order it right now. Thank you. Can you give the title? Oh yeah. You figure this is my third book. I would be better at this. The title is called Movies and Other Things. It is all about Oscar Isaac and Michael Pena in every movie. All right. Shea Serato, as always a pleasure. Thank you. All right. Thanks to Jacoby. Thanks to Shea. Thanks to Clark. Thanks to SoFi. Did you know you're being underpaid by your bank account? That's why SoFi just launched SoFi Money. It's like checking and savings morphed into one single account. You'll earn way more interest on your money. You'll pay zero fees.

Open a SoFi Money account and learn how you can get your money right at SoFi.com slash Simmons, S-O-F-I.com slash Simmons. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget about ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Don't forget about OneShiny Podcast, Getting Ready for March Madness. Don't forget about the rewatchables, the natural. If you ever wanted to hear a frank discussion about Roy Hobbs' sex life,

the rewatchables for the natural is really where you should be going. And all the other great stuff on the Ringer Podcast Network and the world's greatest site, theringer.com. Back a little bit later this week with one more,

including an A-plus list actor we'll be on later this week, Kyle. I know. Even my kids were like, whoa, really? So there you go. Until then. Oh,

we saw. Feelings within On the wayside I'm a person never I don't have