The Bill Simmons Podcast - LeBron's Genius and Kyrie's Exit With David Griffin, Plus Sox-Yanks and Dumb NHL Matchups with JackO | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 363)

Episode Date: May 9, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons connects with former Cleveland Cavaliers GM David Griffin to talk about the different levels of LeBron's game, the Kyrie Irving trade and its surrounding story lines, fixing the MVP award, LeBron's next move, and Kawhi Leonard (3:00). Then Bill calls up JackO to talk about the Red Sox–Yankees series, the NHL playoffs, Mike Francesa's return, and more (1:04:55). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast on the Ringer podcast network brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Sadly, the NBA does not use ZipRecruiter as we knew in game four when the referees were horrible. I hope the referees are better tonight. I think ZipRecruiter would have done a better job finding them. 80% of employers who post a job on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within a day. My listeners can try it for free at ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within a day. My listeners can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Meanwhile, Rocket Mortgage by Quicken Loans wants to help you whether you're looking to buy your first home or your 10th.

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If you missed Tuesday's BS podcast, we had Allison Herman, Lindsay Zolatz, and Katie Baker to discuss a very bizarre SNL season, best TV shows, a wacky NHL playoffs, and childish Gambino and Kanye West.

That was an action-packed podcast. I'm pretty sure that's the only one that combined all of those topics this week into one podcast. If you want to check out TheRinger.com, Justin Verrier wrote about LeBron James. Justin Charity wrote, can anything bring down R. Kelly? Probably not. Shea Serrano did the yeah, but arguments for the 2018 NBA playoffs. There was an exit interview for the Utah Jazz. Whole bunch of good stuff. And if you want to hear instant reactions to tonight's Sixers-Celtics game,

the Ringer NBA show is going to be live right after the game on Twitter. Go to at Ringer. Chris Ryan and the gang will be reacting. Chris Ryan hopefully will not be in a coma. Hopefully he will be coherent. We'll see his Sixers facing elimination. And we'll be on Twitter

and then we'll run that on a podcast right afterwards. So I was sad to miss, we had all of our NFL people in the LA offices this week having meetings and stuff. I was sad to miss it. Robert Mays was all gushy afterwards. He really had a good time. Shout out to Mays.

Shout out to all the LA people. I'll be back later this week after this game five. Coming up, David Griffin, who has never been on this podcast, but I think has been on every other podcast, as well as Jacko, because Yankees Red Sox heating up. But first, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, on the line right now, I think

this is the last podcast that he hasn't been on. David Griffin, former Cavaliers GM, media mogul. I don't know, he's got 19 gigs all of a sudden. It's a pleasure to have you on. How are you? Doing well, Bill. Thank you very much. So you worked with LeBron James for a few years there. LeBron has gone to another level, I would say maybe since the beginning of March. And I've been trying to figure out how the hell he's doing this and how the hell

he's getting even better offensively at this relatively advanced age that he has. Windhorst had a piece this week about how LeBron has learned how to rest during games and actually carries one of the slowest workloads of anybody, just in terms of the amount of ground he covers in a game and picks his spots and just conserves energy as he's going. Do you buy this? Do you believe this or is there something else? Yeah, no, I think that's true. I think a huge part of his improvement though,

comes from the improvement in his shooting, his comfort level with the shooting, his willingness to go to the free throw line late. These are things that I think he's addressed from a skill set standpoint and from a confidence standpoint. But he's so cerebral. You know, we used to joke that he was a computer on learning mode. He's such a savant, and he figures out the angles to such a huge degree that it's not a surprise he figured out how to game the system a little bit. It's why the flip-the-switch notion is so real. It's why we believed in it so much in Cleveland,

because the gap between regular season LeBron and playoff LeBron, particularly on the defensive end of the floor, is bigger than any player in the league, let alone any superstar. So when he's revved up at that level, people haven't seen it for 82 games. They don't even know what to make of it for a while. So what do we do? We just throw out the MVP at this point because we have seen all these teams smartly use the regular season just to

kind of survive it and stay as healthy as they possibly can. And LeBron is somebody that I don't know, for the most part has thrown away the regular season and really concentrates on peaking in the playoffs. And now we have this MVP where you're voting on these six months that ultimately don't matter that much as Toronto proved and Portland proved and a bunch of other teams. Do you think we need a different award? Do we need a playoffs MVP?

What do we do here? Well, it's funny. First of all, I think LeBron made it pretty clear early on in his time with us that what he really cared about was being finals MVP, which is part of, I think, how he's addressing the gap. He recognizes to a huge degree he might be giving away MVP awards in a regular season in the interest of playoff success. So to some degree, he's addressed it himself with the way he focuses his effort. But I think what would be cool, and I don't know why the NBA wouldn't do this.

There'd certainly be no harm in it. In fact, it might make more people show up at the awards show. Do something where you've got an Offensive Player of the Year and have an MVP. Do something where you have a Performance of the Year or Outstanding Season of the Year and an MVP. Because in the NFL, you've got an Offensive Player of the year and an MVP because in the NFL, you've got an offensive player of the year. But if you had offensive player of the year and MVP, Tom Brady can be MVP every year because he's obviously the most valuable player to his team. And you can still recognize the freakish performance of somebody else. I wish they had a playoffs MVP. And I wrote about this in my book

in 2009, where I just went backwards and tried to figure out if the playoffs MVP. And I wrote about this in my book in 2009, where I just went backwards and tried to figure out if the playoffs MVP and finals MVP would have been different year by year. And there were some glaring examples. Like in 07, the Spurs won the title. Tim Duncan was one of the best players in the world and easily the best and most important player in that team. But they swept the Cavs and Tony Parker got hot for a couple of games and he's the finals MVP. And if you go back and look at that season, Dirk's the regular season MVP. Tony Parker's the finals MVP. There's no real record of Tim Duncan, who was the most important player in the league

that year. So that doesn't make a lot of sense. I would be all for that. I'd be all for that. And I think the year Andre Iguodala won the finals MVP and LeBron carried the shell of our team to the finals on his back, basically averaging a triple-double all playoffs. He's clearly the playoffs MVP. So to your point, I think it's a great idea. And I loved it when you mentioned it in the book as well.

So here's my theory on LeBron, because we saw him do this in 2010 and we saw them do it in 2014. Both of those years when he realized he had a losing hand basically at the poker table, he didn't quit on the team, but he checked out. He became very detached, almost became insulated and wasn't leading on the court and was doing his job, was playing hard, but there was something missing and you could see it. You could see he wasn't clicking and connecting with the teammates.

And you could see, it's almost like he was putting up this invisible guard and he definitely did it in 2010 and 2014. And I felt like it was heading there in game four of that Indiana series. And there was this moment during that series when if Indiana could have broken them, if Corver misses two threes, if it just goes sideways, that LeBron was ready to check out and be like, you know what? This team sucks. I deserve better than this and move on. Did you see that or am I imagining it? No, you know, it's funny. I wasn't there in Cleveland and 10. Um, and obviously from a

distance, looked at the situation. I think what's so ridiculous about how good LeBron is and how much better he is than everybody else. We, he dictates outcome to such a huge degree that you sort of dismiss the fact that everybody, when they believe, when they have that spirit, when they're in a place where they just feel better about themselves and they're more properly motivated, is better. Everyone is. Jordan was. Michael. I mean, everyone's better when they're in a better place. And I think what happens with LeBron is you need to keep him in the frame of mind where he's going to dictate outcome in a positive way because he gets so frustrated with people's inability to rise to his level that it makes it difficult to play with him. So, yeah, I watched the series the exact same way you did.

And I did think there was a point where they were teetering on lack of faith. I don't think it's because he quits on them. I think it's because at that point, it becomes clear he doesn't believe in them enough to carry them in the way he has been carrying them. So it's different. Well, you said his brain is like a computer that's constantly learning. He must hit a point during some of these seasons where he realizes, oh, I don't have the horses. I could go to the craziest level I've ever gone to, and it still might not matter. And that's what I was seeing to some degree in game four. But what he did know at the time was Corbin Love started clicking. He gets this out of nowhere performance

from Thompson in game seven. And then by the end of game seven, you could see he was all the way back in. And it was like a completely different team. It was like they put them in a washer and dryer and knocked them around for 45 minutes and spat them back out. And now they're the clear favorites to come out of the East.

And, you know, a week and a half ago, I was thinking they were going to lose to Indiana in five. It's pretty crazy. It's funny. So if LeBron wasn't on Cleveland's team and they did what they did, everything you said, you'd say, Jesus, Ty Lue's a hell of a coach. I mean, he pushed all the right buttons. He ran all the right sets to get Kyle and Love

going. He put Tristan back in the lineup. He put all of the right pieces around each other that knew how to win together. You give him a bunch of credit for that. Because it's LeBron, you focused on what did LeBron do to make it work? What was he about to do to make it

fail? And that's the thing that I think makes it so clear he's the MVP. If you put that dude on any team, all we're going to focus on are his contributions to the bigger picture. And you don't talk about the fact that Ty Lue played all of the guys who knew how to win together and eventually got off of the guys who weren't ready for the moment. And I'm the biggest Brad Stevens fan alive, and I'm a huge fan of yours,

so the only way I could get on the pod was to pander to you with some Brad Stevens love. But I think he gets all of the credit in that circumstance because of what their roster has been and all of the turmoil they've had injury-wise and all of that. And Ty Lue doesn't ever get any of that love. Meanwhile, other coaches will very openly say,

man, I'm not going to get hit by you after timeout tonight. I'm just going to go zone right after timeout because you're not going to embarrass me again. So it's a fascinating dynamic with LeBron around. Isn't that the curse of LeBron to some degrees? When the Cavs win, it's all LeBron. He gets all the credit. And when the Cavs don't win, it's everyone else's fault.

It's the coach's fault and it's his teammates and this guy. It's like he has this built in. It can't be his fault if they lose because he's LeBron. But I think that's a really tough position to be in, not only if you're the coach, but I think we've seen guys who just couldn't handle it. Like a lot of the guys they traded this year and some guys in past years really seem to kind of fold from that constant pressure of, I basically can't win. I just have to survive, right? Yeah. And I think that's the same with any true great. People thought I was crazy when I said the thing about feeling like I was caretaking for the legacy

of Babe Ruth with LeBron. Well, look, when you cut through all of it, when you look at the history of baseball, you talk about everything that Babe did. And Babe won all these games and Babe did all these things. You don't talk about who was his catcher when he was pitching you don't talk about the things that contributed to his success you talk about his greatness so i think that's always happened with truly great players and in this day and age where everybody wants to anoint everyone a superstar we've lost sight of the fact that there may only be one or two in every sport that dictate outcome like that. So yeah, it's 100%, I guess, that there's a curse of being with LeBron. It's that he's going to get all the credit. But he's also, in all likelihood,

going to get all of the blame in the end. Maybe not in the short term, but long term, his legacy needs to succeed. Well, his inability to figure out how to keep Kyrie happy, I think, was his biggest teammate failure, I would say, of the last 10 years. Now, I've heard you talk about this in different platforms, and you're pretty adamant that this was a Kyrie thing and it didn't have anything to do with Kyrie and LeBron, and yet we've seen this situation over and over again in NBA history where you basically need two great guys to keep winning multiple titles, and at some point somebody's Batman and somebody's Robin,

and how the person adjusts to being Robin is that decides whether it's going to work long-term or not. And I think the most famous example of this is Kobe Bryant. Shaq was the best guy in those three finals teams, despite what Barkley was trying to say last night on that crazy TNT show. But Kobe was the Robin. Kobe was the Robin and Kobe didn't want to be Robin anymore. And that's why that's so combusted. Why couldn't Kyrie have stayed as the Robin? What was it in Kyrie's makeup that made him want to be Batman? So I think part of it is the dynamic. You know, I've seen a lot written about the Kobe-Shaq dynamic and we watched it when we were in Phoenix. We were pretty close to it to see them interact together.

And they felt like they had a greater level of malice and petty towards each other on a human level, from a distance at least, than I ever felt like Kyrie and LeBron had. I really think it was a situational thing for us. Somebody has to be Pippen and somebody has to be Jordan. I think that's true. But Scottie Pippen got to the league because he was a freakishly gifted defensive player. And everything that he became offensively, certainly not the passing.

He had that, like he was an Anson Lurie playmaker. But everything he had that brought him to the league helped him grow and evolve to the point where he was as good as he was. But it wasn't like the situation in Chicago precluded him from showing those things. Michael needed everything that Scottie was. So they fit together. And I think the fit of LeBron and Kyrie was difficult because Kyrie was so good offensively. He had been carrying the load offensively for a bad team. Hadn't been raised to understand how to lead and help you win necessarily. Hadn't been given that opportunity yet.

And just when we're going to be good, LeBron shows up and it's his team. So he never got the chance to take the natural progression in his career where he had to try to carry the load and see how good he could be. And he really wanted that. He'd been doing it on a bad team. He wanted a chance to do it on a good team. And it wasn't about being the man. It's how good can I be? What am I capable of? LeBron can score. He doesn't need me to score. LeBron can make all the passes. He doesn't need me to do that. I'm not a better defender than he is. So I think you get to the point where the fit and the need LeBron had for Kyrie wasn't going to allow him to become Scotty

because he didn't need Kyrie to fill in the gaps necessarily. Now, would it have been better situationally? He didn't fill in the gaps. Would it have been better if they could have tricked each other into recognizing, hey, look, just make it until we get to the finals and then you take over? Yeah, that would have been great. But I just don't think that's a very realistic outcome. When you're talking about guys as talented as those guys yeah i was surprised when he got to boston and i obviously know a lot of people in the boston organization i think all

of them were surprised by what an alpha dog kairi was and how similar he was in personality to kg which they just weren't expecting and they were surprised that k Kyrie could have lasted in LeBron's shadow that long. He really wanted to be the guy. But I think if there's a basketball, I don't want to say tragedy, but just maybe a bummer for LeBron's career, the stuff Kyrie brought to the table for him in a weird way really did compliment him because I think one of the best things about one of the greatest things about Kyrie and the thing that I was just shocked by was I know you got to watch him game in game out for, yeah, I forget how many years, but I really, this is the first year I got to really watch him carefully week after week. And what's really incredible

about him is how he doesn't need to be involved and can get involved anytime he wants and can stay at a certain level of hotness and get his shot basically on any play. And it isn't one of those guys who needs to score 50 and he was like, oh shit, I'm feeling it tonight. I'm going to go for 70. He just doesn't care. He establishes whatever he wants to establish on one play in the first quarter to remind whoever's guarding him that he can go to the basket whenever he wants. And then he just kind of gets everyone involved and lets the game come to everybody. And that's kind of the perfect guy to play with LeBron, right, on paper? But it's almost like he was overqualified for it.

Yeah, it's funny. He's perfect. And actually, I'll think of it as one of the biggest failures in my time in Cleveland that I couldn't grow that to a level of individual accountability where they felt that beholden to each other. Um, I think one of the things that really separates Kyrie LeBron KG, I think they all have this. They're all superstar talented, but they desperately want to be told what they need to hear. And I think Kyrie really was searching for an environment like Boston relative to Brad, the way he raised that young team.

They have such ridiculous personal accountability to one another that in that environment, Kyrie was more than willing to stand off on the side and wait. And I think KG didn't really become KG until he was put in a situation where somebody else would call him out and tell him what he needed to hear. And my role with LeBron was very much to do that. And I don't think I recognized the degree to which I could have impacted Kyrie positively. And we were very close. I mean, I love the guy.

And I don't think I realized at the time the degree to which we could have shaped and impacted his willingness to be patient just with the way the environment was being developed. Well, it almost seems like a Brady Garoppolo story, as weird as that analogy is, where Kyrie probably thought, well, you know, nobody stays great for 15 years. Like at some point, LeBron's going to start breaking down a little bit and then I'll become the guy and it'll switch. And it became clear last year that that was never happening. And that LeBron is obviously going to play until he's 75 years old. And I'm sure Kyrie, I'm sure Kyrie was probably looking at it like, ah, I don't know if

I can do this, but I do think, I do think there's a piece to him. I do think there are parallels with him and Durant where part of why they wanted to leave because they knew there was a better basketball situation out there. And that seems weird to say, because Kyrie was playing with somebody who's now probably the second best player of all time. If not the first, I have him number two. Maybe 2A and Russell 2B. But I'm sure Kyrie saw this whole world where it wasn't just your turn, my turn, and everybody spread out and occasionally I'll get the ball. But it's like I can move off picks.

I can do weird things. I can, he probably saw the stuff Stevens did. And once he knew Boston was on the table, he's like, I want to go there. It's a great organization, a great coach.

Like that'd be awesome. I'll be, I'll be a better basketball player. And I do think Durant was like that too, with Golden State. That's a better place for me to develop as a basketball player. You buy that. Yeah,

for sure. I do. And I think the reason is certainly in the situation of Kyrie, I don't think this is necessarily true of Durant because he was growing all the time in the environment Russell was part of. But in the case of Kyrie, the situation in Boston fit what he had grown to be able to do before LeBron got there. You know, when we sat down with Kyrie and he made the decision to stay with us, he recruited every free agent that we were going to bring in.

And successfully so. Everyone was willing to play with him and was excited to play with him. And we were waiting on LeBron to make his decision. And obviously, LeBron wants to come back. You're going to get the greatest player of his generation. You're going to bring LeBron. But Kyrie was really engaged in building a team around him and successfully recruited Hayward, by way of example, as a free agent.

And Trevor Ariza would have wanted to come with us. I mean, we had gotten commitments from a lot of guys who were waiting on LeBron to make a decision. So you're Kyrie. You've been carrying a very bad team. You now re-sign, you successfully recruit a bunch of all-American Team USA kind of players that you're ready to win with. You're going to be the man on that team, and then you're not. So I think his development was stunted from what he was led to believe it was going to be just by virtue of the situation.

And that's really unique. I don't think that's true of Durant's situation. And at the same time, I think you're right. Durant had to leave to really be in the situation that was the ultimate expression of his greatness. And I think that's what Kyrie chose to do. I want to keep talking about Kyrie. Quick break. Let's take a quick break to talk about Casper,

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Kyrie Irving. He hits the biggest shot in the one game that LeBron wins, that ends up winning LeBron the title and bringing the title to Cleveland and all that stuff. And when that happened, I thought, I thought those guys, oh, this is, this is going to last forever. And then obviously things changed the following summer. You were not the GM of Cleveland by that point. You left, I think in June. So a month before it came out that Kyrie wanted to get traded. I still think it was a mistake to trade Kyrie. I would have kept them and tried to figure it out and done everything to try to figure it out, at least until February. And if things got bad, then make the move. Once they didn't have really

a legitimate 100 cents in the dollar trade for them, I just wouldn't have traded them. And I was stunned by how many people thought Cleveland got the better of the trade and kind of seemed to underestimate how good Kyrie was. So this is a two-part question. I'll go to the first part.

Were you shocked that people didn't realize how good Kyrie was? Yes. And I can remember having a conversation with Ainge when, when he called to pick my brain about Kyrie. And one of the first things I told him was, there's a kid who had 10 assists in a quarter just to prove he could do it. He's so good.

He can decide to do certain things like that. So yeah, I was surprised more people hadn't looked at his body of work and figured out how truly transcendent he could be, certainly offensively. Yeah. Okay. And also we saw him deliver on the biggest possible stage in the most possible pressure. So that's one reason I wouldn't have traded him. The other reason is sometimes this stuff, you just kind of have to wait it out and it gets better. There's been a lot of different moments over the course of NBA history when a team actually didn't panic and wrote it out. I think one of the more recently famous examples was Kobe in 2007 when he wanted to get

traded and they went pretty far down the road with the Pistons trade. And then Dr. Buss came in and just blocked it. He's like, no way we're not trading Kobe Bryant. What are you guys doing? And that was it. And within two years,

they won the title. If you had been the GM, would you have thrown your body in front of the Kyrie trade? It's funny, actually, I think a lot about the situation. And again, all of this was sort of the perfect storm. So I leave the Monday before the draft. And I knew throughout those playoffs that Kyrie wasn't obviously terribly happy with the situation and that there was a struggle. And as I said, Kyrie and I were close. We talked a lot. I could tell what was going to be a little bit of an issue for him

and where we were going to be in the offseason. But I think the most recent example of this is Popovich convincing LaMarcus Aldridge to stay when LaMarcus asked for a trade. Great point. When it's Pop and Pop tells you X, Y, Z, you take it to the bank. It's a given. This guy has all the power. He has all the authority.

I can believe in Pop. For 21 years, I can believe in Pop. And I think where Kyrie had gotten was in my absence, everything was sort of an upheaval. Chauncey's coming. He's not coming. He and Jeff Wexler are dealing with a situation where they don't know what they can trust. They don't know what they can believe in. And I think it accelerated and exacerbated the situation in a way that in the presence of someone who ultimately everybody trusted and knew had authority, you would have been able to do a different thing. And I don't think they were in a position where they were going to get to do that because there was just too much turmoil at play and no one that was actually in charge at the time.

So it's not fair to say what would have happened if there was someone in charge they trusted and believed in because that wasn't the situation they were dealing from. Yeah, that's fair. I, I do think, uh, I don't know. I think once, once he found out that Boston was a real possibility that probably changed the equation too. If it had just been the Denver Phoenix type of teams,

you can kind of maybe reel them back in at that point. I think I gotta be honest. I think it's incredible that the Cavs are going to make the finals again. I, I, I was watching them January, February, and even before they made the trades, then they made all the trades and everybody's like, they saved their season. And I felt like I was a voice crying in the wilderness going, whoa, how did they save their season? That three of those four guys have never been in a big game in their lives. And the only one who has is George Hill, who's always hurt. What, what season did they save their season? That three of those four guys have never been in a big game in their lives. And the only one who has is George Hill, who's always hurt. What season did they save?

And then you look at, you know, by game three of the last series, none of the new guys are playing and George Hill's hurt. But now George Hill's playing well. And the five guys that LeBron basically knows he can go to war with, and somehow this is enough to make the finals. I'm just staggered by this whole thing. You are, but you're not. If you just separate yourself from all of the craziness that is Cleveland, if you look at it and you say,

okay, let's take LeBron James and put him on any team in the East, what would the expectation level be? He's supposed to do this. That's how good he is. So it's funny when I see that, and I've seen some of the things you've talked about, like Kobe Altman taking his victory lap after the trades. I thought he did a remarkable job playing the cards he was dealt.

No, I disagree. Let's disagree on this. And that's okay, and we can get into this. But I thought he did a really good job for this reason. Don't even think about the players he brought back. He got LeBron to buy into the notion of, okay, this team can win. And therefore, he got the LeBron that dictates outcome in a positive way. And that LeBron could be on any team in the league, and he's supposed to go to the finals.

So that's the value of putting LeBron in the right space, is giving him hope. Now, look, are there individual players that he brought back that aren't contributing? Sure. George Hill's never healthy. Also true. He makes a ton of money. Also true. When he's healthy defensively, his presence makes it possible for Korver and Love and JR to start together and do the things they do that make LeBron comfortable, which isn't

a small thing. True. I just didn't like the trades. And I felt like, you know, now if he leaves, there's no safety net whatsoever other than this Brooklyn pick that isn't really even a great pick, you know? I think it's pick nine. It's fine.

Yeah. But they're in salary cap hell, and there's no real way for them to bounce out of it. So I guess basically it was a Hail Mary. And now if LeBron makes the finals, it becomes much more unrealistic, I think, for him to leave. And it also doesn't really seem like there's the right team for him. Philly's had a lot of buzz for him, I would say, since January, February.

I started really hearing whispers. And I don't think it's any secret that there's some overlapping friendships and business relationships. And Ben Simmons is there. And obviously, it's a possibility. What you know of LeBron, could you see him joining someone else's team like that again to basically join the Simmons and bead process whole thing and just kind of insert himself into this? Cause he did it that one other time with Dwayne Wade. And I'm sure even though it worked out all right, that first year, he took so much shit for it. I just find it hard to believe he's going to do that again at this point of

his career. What do you think? Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I think he's as likely to join Simmons in L.A., join Bill Simmons in L.A., if he is silly. And the reason I say that is, knowing LeBron like I do, when he makes his mind up that something is the main thing for him, it is. And he can bring about whatever reality he wants to. He's a savant as well. He believes that his presence anywhere makes them at least a co-contender. So I don't think he's going to make his decision necessarily based on where he has the best chance to win. I think it's going to be about what's the best expression for what he wants the next phase of his legacy to look like. And I don't have any

idea what that is. I really don't. But I don't think we know any of the things he's going to make the decision based on. And it's really hard to say. It's funny. I think the trades being a Hail Mary or something that actually work in their favor to this extent,

when LeBron's on a one-year contract every year, you don't get to be long-term sustainable. You don't get to do Danny A sustainable. You don't get to do Danny Ainge. You don't get to play that game. Those aren't the cards you're being dealt. You have to win right now and put him in a position, a frame of mind where he believes he's going to win in the future. And everything that happens because he's on one-year deals at the absolute maximum amount of money is an unsustainable formula. So to some degree, he puts himself in that situation as well. And I think he appreciates that because it's what

gives him the ability to make Cleveland do what they did. He doesn't care if Cleveland has nothing left if he walks. He cares that Cleveland believes in him enough to invest in him. And I think they did that. So the message they're sending to him is, look, we still get it. And so again, that's meaningful. If you're Dan Gilbert, you really have to do that.

I'm torn on it because, you know, on the one hand, there's no loyalty in sports anymore, and there never was. And I think Isaiah Thomas getting traded from Boston and how OKC so quickly turned on Durant, he was reminded over and over again that there's no loyalty in sports. So for LeBron to take these series of one-year deals, which are really damaging for a team because you have no stability at all. How many first-round picks did you trade when he showed up? Five? Five in three years?

You basically gutted the future of the team because he was holding this carrot, like, we need to be good now. We need to be good now. We need to be good now. And you were the prisoner of that. But on the other hand, I don't blame him for doing that. He had all the power and players never have power. So basically, I don't know how to feel about it. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So I don't know how many picks it was. To be honest with you, I think the

deal that gets talked about the most in terms of number of picks was J.R. Shumpert and Mozgov. And it looked like you gave up two firsts to get Mozgy, but really all you did was give up the Memphis pick that you already had. The thing that I think relative to the future of the team, it's one thing to give up protected first-round picks and to bring in guys that fit him really well and fit your timeline and all of that. It's another thing to give up an unprotected pick

or to do what Brooklyn did, where they genuinely gave themselves no future of any kind. That's not what happened with the LeBron existence. But because Kyrie was lost in the process, the one piece that was going to be absolutely transcendent is gone. And so now when you're building in the absence of Kyrie, it looks like you really left it barren when the reality is it, it wasn't that barren,

a nucleus of Kyrie and Kevin Love is a playoff team for sure. Right. And who knows what else? And that Kevin Love thing, I've never given up on Kevin Love. I really came close to giving up on Kevin Love this year. It just seemed like he was being used in a way that did not benefit a lot of the things that he was good at.

And now for whatever reason, him and Korver have been unleashed. And Korver's another one that he's, what is he, like 36 at this point? I don't understand how teams aren't exploiting those guys defensively, but it doesn't seem to matter. Hey, I wanted to ask you about Kawhi quickly, because you've never really been in a situation like this one. And I think that Kyrie, what happened with Kyrie last year, where he had two years left on his deal, but if it wasn't taken care of, he was going to leave. And I've seen this term thrown around on

the internet a couple of times that I kind of like called pre-agency. So you're not a free agent, but you're like a pre-agent. And you can use that as this weird form of leverage to teams. Like, look, man, I'd get something for me now. Paul George did it too. You should get something for me now because I'm not going to say I'm leaving, but I'm probably leaving. And it's become this weird form of power. And now you see it with Kawhi. Kawhi's got a year left. You mentioned that you thought LeBron was the most logical place if he was going to leave is LA. I also agree with that. And I've written about this. LeBron loves narratives, him going to LA, him learning from Magic Johnson, him becoming a billion dollar media mogul. These are all things that would make sense if you followed LeBron's career.

What's interesting about him going to LA though, they're going to have cap space. They have people to trade to create more cap space, but there's also the smorgasbord of people available, Kawhi, Paul George, maybe even Boogie Cousins. God knows who else. DeMar DeRozan could be available for all we know. How would you handle the Kawhi thing if you were running San Antonio? Because it really does seem like he's leaving a year from now. What do you do? Well, it's funny. So my intention wasn't necessarily to say that LA makes the most sense. Just I think it's as likely as anything else.

San Antonio could be as likely as anything else. Why couldn't San Antonio find a way to clear the space to bring Braun to make Kawhi happy? Braun thinks Pop is an absolute icon. So that's an outcome that could happen as well. And if somebody could pull that off, it's Pop. So for me, when I look at it and you're making the decision to do this, you have to start with this is the Spurs. If this was any other organization, I would believe all of the fire starter nonsense about he has to leave or you have to get. I don't think you have to do anything. It's you said it about Jerry Buss. No, I'm not trading Kobe Bryant. Well, Pop has the level of control and power to say,

no, I'm not trading Kawhi Leonard. But if you're going to not do that, then you need to put him in a position to dictate outcomes. So maybe you have to change pieces around him. I think that's more likely than they just cave and move the guy. Well, when you saw that, like he wasn't coming to the playoff games and stuff like that, what is your read as somebody who has been an executive on a team when somebody is just like,

I'm out, I'm not coming to the games? It's a terrible look. And it says a great deal about where his mindset is and the input he's getting from other people. It said a lot about the way San Antonio sort of publicly hung him out to dry by saying that he was ready and that he's been cleared to play. That surprised me that they went that route, but they did it for a reason. And I know that Pop knows his circumstance better than I do, but I looked at it and I thought, wow, that's a really negative thing. But again, you can overcome it. There was a lot of negativity around LA as well. Kobe and Shaq hated each other, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And Jerry Buss said, no.

So in certain situations, you can do that. We're going to take one more quick break. Hey, a quick break to talk about our friends at Rocket Mortgage by Quicken Loans. They understand that home plays a big role in your life and family. That's why they created Rocket Mortgage, which gives you the confidence you need when it comes to buying a home or refinancing your existing home loan. It's simple and allows you to fully understand all the details and be confident you're getting

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Apply simply. Understand fully. Mortgage confidently to get started. Go to rocketmortgage.com slash Bill Simmons, equal housing lender, licensed in all 50 states, NMLSconsumeraccess.org, number 3030. All right, so you're at a cocktail party. It's 1030 at night. Everybody's had a couple of drinks. And somebody says to you, hey, David, give us your best LeBron James story. What is it?

Wow. God, that's a great question. I think the one I've fallen back on the most is there's two of them. So one, Bron is on the court. We're playing Chicago. The game he hits the fall-away buzzer beater to win for us, it was one of the most ridiculous games I've ever seen in playoff basketball. Earlier in the game, LeBron turns his ankle over on a drive. He steps on someone's foot and literally lays it completely flat to the point where the bone hits the wood. And I'm watching in the back because I'm so nervous. I can't even sit in my seat outside and I'm watching in the back with

our trainers and everybody else. And I'm like, holy shit, that's not good. So he comes back, uh, his trainer comes back, Mike Mancini comes back to grab something for him so that he's going to lace his shoe up tighter. And I asked him, I say, is he okay? And he says, does he have a choice? I'll never ever forget that because Mike doesn't say that if that's not Braun's mindset. And that is Braun's mindset. He's going to mind over matter his way past things that other people won't. I think Kobe has a similar mindset. It just got to the point where the physical deterioration was too great. But he has that ability to just transcend his situation more so than anybody I've certainly ever been around.

And Steve Nash had a great deal of that himself. The other Braun story for me that I've always enjoyed is we're standing in the lobby of these four seasons in San Francisco the day Mozgov joins the team. And Mozgov is standing, he's basically coming up the elevator and he walks off the elevator and I'm standing with Braun telling him, Hey, by the way, Mozzie's on his way, et cetera. Bron's really excited with the trade. And he feels like this is going to be a meaningful thing. Mozzie walks off the elevator and Bron turns and looks at him. And with this joyful little kid kind of grin on his face, he goes, that's a really big dude. And he was awestruck by somebody for the first time I'd ever seen it. And I just, I remember the look on his face really, really vividly.

That's great. And when he did the block in 2016, were you in the arena for that? Or were you hiding somewhere in a conference room having a heart attack? No, I was in the arena. I was with Trent Redden, our assistant GM, and Kobe Altman, who obviously took over the team. And we were all standing next to each other. And I think I hugged and kissed them both at that moment. My favorite part of that, that's actually my favorite J.R. Smith story. Nobody ever gives J.R. the love for being there and forcing the double clutch that enabled LeBron to recover. But it was one of my favorite things to watch because in that video, that's probably my biggest basketball fan regret of this decade was just not being in the house for that chase down block. Cause I had been writing since probably the mid two thousands when it became clear that

LeBron athletically was just on some different plane than we had anybody could imagine. And I remember writing, it must've been like 2008 or 2009, like that at some point he was going to give us like one of the great highlights of all time. And it was just a question of what it was. Was he going to dunk over somebody from the foul line? Was he going to like catch some rebound off the top of the back bar? Like we just didn't know, but it was clearly going to be something. And I never imagined it was going to be a block that basically swung the NBA finals, which is really the best chase down block that's ever happened. And I think that's become his moment. And yet now we're seeing in the playoffs, he's had two buzzer beaters already. He made, I thought, one of the all-time craziest buzzer

beaters I've ever seen in my life on Saturday with the running full speed off one leg bag shot. It really, it really does seem like he's hitting this Jordan point that Jordan hit. I felt like in 90, 97, 98. I remember bird was able to hit this point in the mid eighties where, uh, they're just kind of fucking around in huge moments on playoff games. And he's like, he's playing against himself and not the other people. He's like, I wonder if I can make this shot. I'll try this one. And I never remember him doing this before.

Do you? Yeah, you know, it's funny. This is actually something bringing this somewhat full circle. It's something I give Kyrie a lot of credit for because Kyrie was natively like that. He loved to make left-handed finishes that seemed circus-like, that he had no reason to have to use, but he would anyway. And he would do it in practices.

He and Shump would play one-on-one endlessly after practice doing things like that. And LeBron sort of got into the routine of doing these weird one-legged, left-handed sort of things, finish with spin for no reason. And I think Kyrie, in a weird sort of way, really made LeBron start to think about, you know what, there's more that I'm capable of doing. I don't have a left-handed runner. I can't spin the ball off the glass.

And I think Kyrie's talent and knack for doing things like that challenged LeBron, and LeBron Bron thought and went, I want that. And he's so damn good. He can incorporate it into his own game. And to me, maybe that's the best LeBron story. There's literally nothing you can show him that he can't do. There's no play you'll run against him. He can't name and then go out there and teach your players how to do it better than anybody else.

I watched him. You know, it's funny, you said the thing about not being in the gym, and it's one of your big regrets. I don't think I took a breath for a minute 45. I mean, it was agonizing that last period of time in that game. But I was also in the gym when I watched him on the floor against Toronto tell Patrick Patterson where he was supposed to go on the play they had called out of timeout late in the fourth quarter.

He's like, no, Pat, you're supposed to stand over there and you're going to pin down for tomorrow over here. Wow. That's hilarious. That's who he is. You know, I did a podcast with Larry Bird like like six years ago and he was just casually i remember bringing up some game and he remembered all the details from it it was some random game you know 37 years earlier and there's oh yeah i remember the third quarter i was

i there must be something in these people's brains like you said it was like a learning a computer that's constantly learning where they're just downloading information all the time and it never ends and they can just reach into it and do whatever they want. Hey, one last question for you, because obviously you're going to be an executive again at some point in your life, right? You're not just going to be on TV shows with Zach Lowe. Well, not if people listen to your show, but yes, I'll have a chance. So I would say there's four types of situations an executive can take over. And I've talked about this with Daryl Morey. The funniest thing about Daryl was he's trying to build this contender in Houston, and they were always competitive, and they always had a really good player.

And when Hinckley took that Philly job, he was kind of jealous of it because him and Hinckley had always talked about, well, if I take over a team that's ready to gut the franchise, here's what we would do. You're going to really gut it. You're going to go all out and gut the living hell out of it. And he was watching the Hinckley thing, really genuinely amused and delighted that Hinckley was doing something they'd already talked about. So you have that scenario. You have the takeover team that is at the crossroads but has a real chance to win the title. You have the team that has the one good player, but it's time to kind of reinvent itself.

And then you have the team that's just like Brooklyn three years ago where you just got a blank canvas, no expectations and years to figure it out because everybody knows it's going to be impossible. What's your dream scenario with the next job? You know, I think it's something similar to what we had when we started in Cleveland. You know, Chris Grant never gets mentioned in any of the conversations about the process and any of those things, but we did, to a huge degree, what Henke started doing. And we did it on the model of OKC in Seattle, what Presti had done when he made the moves he did to get younger and trade away Ray and do those sorts of things.

We were very much using that template. I mean, Pop did it a million years ago when he tanked to build with the right piece. By the way, multiple GMs have done this before Sam Hinckley. He somehow gets credit as he just did it to the nth degree, but it's been going on

for 40 years. And I think it, I love Sam and I love how brazen he was and very clear about his mission. Like that's why it was the right thing to do because he was all in on it. So I appreciated that about it. We didn't do it in a similar all in with our verbiage kind of nature in Cleveland. We weren't talking about it, but we were doing something very similar.

And I think the reason it was an ideal situation was we got there. I started in September. LeBron had left the previous, you know, in July and it was like jumping into a burning building. You could literally do anything you wanted to do and you had cover and it was all going to be LeBron's fault for a couple of years. So that's, that's a great situation. You know, if there's a curse to having him on your team, there's a blessing when he leaves, you get an awful lot of cover and you get to learn on the fly. That's a good point. I think that was, yeah, I mean, I think it was just an opportunity to really figure it out long-term and build in the right, meaningful, sustainable way. And I would love the opportunity to do that somewhere if it's

the right fit, but it's got to be with ownership that you can be in lockstep with. And that's not common. It's more and more difficult to find the right fit for yourself. You know, I can't preach fit with all of the pieces on the court and not invest in the same thing as a human being. So from a leadership standpoint, you just need to be in a situation where you can have the runway to do the right things over time. And that's not what the Cleveland situation certainly was. So holistically, you'd like to get a chance to do it the right way once, I suppose. Yeah, what's funny about the NBA is we have a clear roadmap for how this should actually work. We have certain teams that are successful year after year, and they're successful

because they have good players, and they also have an organization slash ownership that's in lockstep with each other. I look at a team like the Celtics. They've had the same owner since 2003. They've had the same GM since I think 2004. And his right-hand man, Mike Zarin, has been there for the last 10 years and has turned down a bunch of real GM jobs. They've had the same president since the mid-2000s, Rich Gotham.

They've had the same CMO since God knows when, my buddy Sully. And it's basically the organization never changes. I saw them at the Philly game. It's like, it could have been 2005. It would have been the same people. And to nobody's surprise, that's one of the best run teams in the league. And then you look at these other teams, like, would you ever in a million years, if you were a rich guy who owned an NBA team, would you ever in a million years make somebody the coach and the GM? Would you ever do this? It's a formula that doesn't work. You know, the word unicorn

is hard to overuse, but Pop really is. Belichick really is. What is there, like one in each sport that can pull this off over an extended period of time? They had a ton of help, though, too. It wasn't like they were just doing two jobs. Sure. Yeah, and I think Stan and Tibbs tried to give themselves help, too.

But I think the difference is the notion of how you win as a coach is a very here-and-now concept, typically. We're going to win tonight's game. And it's a rare coach who, in and of himself as a coach, can be big enough picture like Brad to connect dots over time and grow young kids and understand from a player development standpoint, this is how I'm going to overlay everything into the situation.

One of the great things that I heard about Brad very recently is Brad's already put all of the time and effort into understanding what Jason Tatum's development plan needs to be for the off season to get him to the next step. In intricate detail, it's already laid out what he needs. That's a very rare gift, even as a coach. So then what you're saying is I want that coach. And I also want that guy to have the even rarer gift of being able to make short and long-term decisions at the same time. It's a very, very difficult model to put into place and really believe is going to work

despite the fact that you're going to say, well, Belichick does it. Well, sure. Belichick's had Bob Kraft for how long? He's had Tom Brady for how long? Pop does it? Well, he's had the ownership he's had with Peter Holt in San Antonio for how long? He had Tim Duncan, Manu, and Tony Parker for how long? He had R.C. Buford for how long? Danny Ainge does it. To your point about the stability they've had, that all starts with ownership and their willingness to invest in the process and empower the right people and danny clearly was the right person and yeah they've they've got the incredible depth that you talked about right mike darren and all of that it's the thing that I look back on with the greatest pride I think in Cleveland is we grew a very deep front office and growing that is hard,

let alone growing that in coaching. It's just, it's hard to imagine. Yeah. It's easy to be the coach and the GM when you have one of the five best players of all time on your team is the other lesson we've learned. Tom Brady, Tim Duncan, he's the sixth best player of all time. You could do it under those circumstances. According to the pyramid. Yeah, according to the pyramid. I think it's really hard to just go to Detroit or go to Minnesota and just be like, I've got this. But I get it. If you're a coach, you want to have the most power you can have. But at the same time, I think a coach and a GM

should look at a team differently. Coaches are too reactionary and they're too close to it. And it's the GM's job to, you know, be parachuting from above and going, hey, I noticed this. Hey, this looks off. Hey, I think you're too close to it this way.

And ideally they should work hand in hand um I don't know I think the oh god I'm sorry to interrupt you I think the other thing though that comes into it is you get good at what you practice right why wouldn't running a team be similar if it's not the skill set you've been honing over time then it doesn't make any sense to assume that you would natively be good at it it's you you have to do that over time, then it doesn't make any sense to assume that you would natively be good at it. You have to do that over a period of time. And in the case of Pop with Duncan, in the case of Belichick with Brady, it's not just that they're transcendently great players, that they allow for leadership to lead them. They're selfless enough to just assimilate into

the same level of expectation and accountability that everybody else on the team has. Steve Kerr tells a great story about Tim Duncan. When San Antonio won the championship, they're coming off the title. Tim is coming off being finals MVP. They're at training camp the next year, and Kerr and Judd Bushler are walking down the ramp of the parking garage. And they had just parked their cars because they weren't staying at the

hotel that Pop required everyone to stay at for training camp, right? So they're doing it at their own facility, but Pop has a hotel he makes everyone stay at in San Antonio. Those two guys are veterans with families, so they don't stay at the hotel. They park their car, they're walking down the ramp, and they see Tim Duncan. And Tim says, hey, guys, what are you doing? He said, well, we just parked. We're walking to practice. He said, park. You're not staying at the hotel?

And they said, no, Tim, we're staying at home. Tim said, you can do that. Steve and Judd said, Tim, your final MVP, man, you can do whatever you want. It's unbelievable. I don't know how pop does it. I've told this story in the podcast before, but, uh, I was doing TV once with Avery Johnson and he was hosting countdown for somebody. And it was a Spurs Clippers game or Spurs Lakers. One of them,

the Spurs were in town and Avery Johnson gets a call. He was, we're going to go get a drink with them. And he gets this call from pop. He's like, sorry guys, I got to cancel. We got a team dinner.

And Jalen and I are like, what do you mean a team dinner? You're not on a team. And he meant the Spurs. And it was like, pop no matter how long you've not been on the team pops, like we're going to dinner tonight. You're coming. And Avery Johnson, it was like, he was still a player. It was like, all right, I'll be there at nine 30. I got to cancel his, all his plans.

And he goes to eat with the team. But I think that's what he's built. And I think it's something that I think Stevens has a chance to do, especially, I think it's much harder in this day and age with the roster turnover you have. And I'm not sure we're going to see a lot of Tim Duncan on the same team for 20 years moments anymore. But it's pretty cool when it happens.

Prediction for the finals quickly. So I think it'll be Golden State-Cleveland, and I'll pick Golden State again. Okay. Nothing worries you about the Golden State continually not kind of having to light their own fire and being unable to do it for more than one game in a row? Yeah, it did to start the year.

I mean, I think it was pretty obvious they were complacent and they were struggling with motivation and all of those things but you give steph time to rest the knee and get fresh mentally and come back back at it with a fresh set of eyes and they're being really successful again with actions that they were always successful with and they just got to the point where they weren't executing them as hard or as well. And now they're willing to do that again because they're back in the spirit of it in the right sort of way. They're so talented that their spirit is what really set them apart, right? KD looked at all that. I call it a joy engine, but he looked at all of that from a distance and said, God, I want to be part of that.

And I think they've found that again. And when that thing gets rolling, you just don't stop it. Last thing, can you explain to everybody in the internet that there's no way the Celtics are trading Jason Tatum for Kawhi Leonard or really anybody else in the league other than maybe Giannis and Anthony Davis? I would be stunned if they traded them for anyone, to be honest with you. I think their track record is that they're going to be far more patient than that and and not jump the gun on those things you

know what what makes that team ridiculous to me is their average age is what 25 i mean you know better than me but maybe it's 25 and change they have all of these incredible assets that they have in their coffers moving forward. They've got all these young kids they're developing. This dude they thought was going to be the best player on their team didn't play all year. And he's coming too. So why would you jump the gun and try to accelerate the process with someone coming off patellar surgery or didn't even have the surgery, actually, right? We don't even know how healthy he is. Yeah, it's been funny hearing everyone talk about

the young Sixers and the young Sixers. And meanwhile, the Celtics in this series are actually younger. Their two guys are 20 and 21. With a young coach. Yeah, and their coach is younger and they have less veterans than Philly has. But that's why we love those narratives.

David Griffin, this was really fun. I hope to see you at the finals. I'm sure you're going to be there, right? I will be there, although I'll be working for Turner, so I may be in Atlanta at the time. Oh, all right. Well, I'm sure I'll see you down the road. Thanks for coming on.

I'm glad we finally did this. You bet, Bill. Thanks, man. All right. Bye-bye. Before we call Jacko, we should mention Mother's Day is coming up. My mom refuses to come on this podcast. My dad has been on 40 times. My dad now has a Twitter following of 22,000 people, which is astonishing.

Goddamn. At Dr. Bill1947, you could see him flipping out on Scott Foster, the referee during game four. He was very upset about Tom Brady's haircut. All these good things happened with my dad's Twitter feed. And my mom just does not want to come on. And my mom would be a spectacular podcast guest. She has a lot of hot takes, probably more hot takes than anyone I've ever met in my life. Usually delivered after about two and a half

glasses of wine. She won't come on, but the good news is Mother's Day is coming up and I get to spend Mother's Day with her with fresh flowers, guaranteed delivery, and unique vases, vases, and accessories that mom will love. I think I'm going to use Pro Flowers. They have everything you need and I need for all the moms you know, just choose the delivery date you want. It's guaranteed. You can even get your gift delivered on Mother's Day, May 13th. May 13th, that's this Sunday. FYI, don't forget to show mom how much she means to you or make her feel guilty because she'll never come on your podcast. Send her 100 colorful blooms with a free glass vase for just $19.99 plus shipping and handling. Visit proflowers.com. Click on the blue microphone in the upper right corner and use my code BS.

That is proflowers.com. Code BS. All right, on the line, my buddy Jacko, big Yankee fan. He's been on this podcast roughly a million times. Johnny, the rivalry is back. Could you feel it last night? It's back, baby. We're back! Yes,

it is. When Joe Kelly came out of the bullpen and the Yankee fans lost their fucking minds screaming at him, I was like, we are so back. And there's stars on both teams again. Like, real star power. Like, Mookie is the best player in the

American League right now and is on one of the best six week stretches I've ever seen from a Red Sox player I'm going to tell you this as an opposing as a fan of an opposing team when he came up last night he I was legitimately nervous and I was I was downright scared

in the ninth inning that they that Vasquez might somehow get on base and then Mookie would come up. I was genuinely frightened of that possibility. So, yeah, he's definitely scary. There's no question about it. He had an unbelievable at-bat against Robertson who everybody chases his stupid breaking ball into the dirt. And he had him 0-2. He fouled off one.

He check-swinged one. He check swing one. He just stopped it, took a pitch, and then drove in what was the tying run. But it was such a great at-bat, and I really felt like he was going to come through. And I don't know how long this is going to last, but so you have him, you have Stanton and Judge, you have two iconic closers,

you have a bunch of good starting pitchers on both sides Severino was really great last night I made fun of Max he did a tweet about is there any pitcher you'd rather have at his age and all that stuff but like I was thinking the same thing watch it he was over 100 pitches hitting 100 miles

an hour in the radar gun and I was texting my buddy Hench and we were like what the hell is going on he's's throwing a hundred. It's the sixth inning. The funny thing is, is he wasn't even that dominant. He was better in the previous game where he was, he was again, throwing 99 or a hundred at his hundredth pitch and watching the Yankees broadcast last night, Michael Kay said, it's like a golfer, like shooting your age, you know, that he was, could he throw, could he throw a hundred at his hundredth pitch? But then he threw a changeup, I think, for 90.

So it didn't happen. But yeah, he has an incredible amount of stamina, which you don't see, where he can still hump it up at 99 or 100 when he's in the 17th inning. It's crazy. It felt like an old-school crowd last night, too. Everybody was up on every two-strike count.

It really kind of felt like the old Yankee Stadium. I know it's not, but I did have that vibe on my television set. Well, I watched the post game on both channels and both the Yankees broadcast and, and that's in the beauty of living in Connecticut is you get to watch both. And Alex Cora was saying like, he felt that the stadium was like, it sounded like it did in the post season when he was there with the Astros bench coach last year, that it was that loud and that raucous. Wow. I mean, you got the sense even on TV when Joe Kelly was warming up,

it was going to be like a Roman Coliseum situation. Like, give us Joe Kelly. Send him in. That crowd wanted blood, you know. I was worried because the Red Sox announcers made the point that Joe Kelly is definitely an adrenaline guy. Right.

And that was one of the all-time adrenaline situations. And I really thought he was going to throw like 108 miles an hour and his arm was going to come off his body. He was like, what's going to happen? Right. But, yeah. And he actually, he did not do as poorly as I would have hoped because although Judge got the single and knocked it a run,

I mean, the Yankees ran into some outs on the bases, but he definitely limited the damage, which could have been a lot worse there. Well, I have some news for you. I wanted to call you to tell you that I was officially afraid of Stanton last night. Were you? Yeah.

That felt like a playoff game last night, and you go into the mode of, who am I afraid of? And I've, you know, and it's sometimes it's irrational. Like I'm always afraid of Brett Gardner. Who's like,

what a career two 60 hitter. But he's been awful this year. And he's been awful this year, but for some reason I'm still scared when he's up. But, but the thing about Brett Gardner is he'll put a tough at bat, like when it's needed in late innings, he'll work a pitcher and, you pitcher and he might not get a hit,

but he'll go through a 9 or 10 pitch at bat. So wear the guy down. But Stanton, the second home run he hit yesterday, it looked like he had popped out to shallow right field and it kept carrying and went 10 rows into the right field stance. It's pretty frightening when somebody cannot even really get all of a pitch and and uh and still put it out the first home run he hit like they showed the yankees bench after the fact and judge and cc sabathia were kind of making fun of his swing because he almost like swung down on the ball and it was just like this laser beam that

went out it was the oddest swing because it was up in the zone and he just like was like a golf swing he just got you know not even a golf swing i don't know what it was it just like a like a tomahawk chop that just went out it was crazy the way it went off his bat and got out in a hurry so that's a good sign that he um you know the guy's just so big and so strong that even on not the perfect swing he can knock it out so maybe the weather's warming up and his furniture's there and all's good now you know so It was, it's just comical when those guys come up. They're so gigantic. They look like freaks on the television. I know. You're already nervous about, I'm already nervous watching the game anyway. And then like these giant Paul Bunyan people come up. That's the one kudos I'll give to Joe Kelly, because I remember last year's Yankees team. And if you look at the Yankees, this is before they had even had Stanton, but like

judge is enormous. CC is a big guy. Chapman's big. Patances is big. I remember on opening day, we're looking at them when they were all lined up on the foul line. And I'm like, God, no one's ever going to fight the Yankees because they're like a football team. And then this year they add Stanton to it. Joe Kelly is either dumb enough or crazy enough that he's like, bring it on, you know, or he's suicidal enough. I'm not sure which, but, you know, kudos. That takes guts. You can tell he's Irish that he's going to take on everybody.

Well, that Tyler Austin is no small guy either. They do have some big dudes in that team. They definitely do. And their lineup, you know, I don't know if it's going to last, but the good thing is there's so much talent in their lineup that D.D., who was the best player on Earth a couple weeks ago, and now he's like 0 for

15. Gary Sanchez is hitting home runs left and right everywhere, and now he's in kind of a slump, but there's still some other guy that's going to rise to the challenge. Glaber had a huge hit over the weekend. Andahar was red hot. He's cooled off,

but it's like the next man up, you know, like some guy's always there that's going to be hot and their lineup is just, it's got to be a nightmare for a pitcher to work through because there's no breathers, you know? How old is Glaber? Is he like 35 years old?

No, he's like 21. What's going on with that dude? No, I know, but when you see him, he has like this grown man, old guy body. He's got this big ass. He does not look like a rookie at all. No, he looks older than 21, but they claim he's 21. I'll go with that.

Hopefully they have that on good authority. I was expecting, because I hadn't seen him until he joined the team, I was expecting somebody who looked like the Bat Boy or something. More baby-faced, right? right yeah just like this little kid and uh now he looks like a grown-ass man so so yeah and i mean you know the socks mookie makes you nervous and then and then you know the rejuvenated hanley that ben intend to get a little bit of a break, and then Hanley and JD Martinez make you nervous, and Hall of Famer Xander Bogarts is always liable to get on base. After that, you can sort of relax a little bit.

I've got to be honest. That 7-8-9 with automatic out Jackie Bradley Jr. and Christian Vasquez is really not putting the fear of God into anybody. It's tough because my dad and I are not giant JBJ fans. And it seemed like there was this window last winter to trade them and get real value. And I don't know why. Maybe I imagined this and it was a dream I had and I just wanted this to happen or I saw this on the internet or this is a real thing.

But it seemed like there was a chance that they could flip him for Cole on Pittsburgh or one of those type of trades. Put him with somebody else and then you get – and it was like, wow, do that now. Please do it right. Wasn't there allegedly like a Puig for JBJ trade offered by the Dodgers? Oh, I would – can we do that now i could swear i read about that in the off season and and you know puig brings some headaches and and what have you but he could have

been an icon in boston with you know with a big bat and everything and it could have gone one of two ways either would have just been an enormous disaster or he could have been like a legendary icon just hitting home run over after home run over the green monster but all the red sox you know beat writers everything like oh you can't do that because jbj is so valuable in defense but i mean to call him a liability on offense is offensive to liabilities i mean he's just an automatic out that's why when chapman hit him in the ninth inning i was like oh my god you can throw it up there underhanded you can't hit you can't try to get cute and like hit jbj when he's out.

Yeah, and they have other guys who could play center field, which makes it even more frustrating. The death of the Red Sox catchers this year has been, I think, the strangest part of the season, because other than whatever the hell is going on with David Price. But Vasquez, I don't want to say he was like Johnny Bench in the mid-70s, but he did have good at-bats. And I did feel like he was going to come through. And he's been just a sieve this year.

He cannot hit anything. Wasn't Blake Swihart a catcher at one point, or am I crazy? He was. Hench and I were texting about that yesterday. We just assumed maybe he can't throw to second base or something. But he's got to be better than that. He was like a highly touted Red Sox prospect, right? I thought he was a catcher.

He was going to be the catcher of the future. And now where does he play? Like infield or something? I don't know. It really seems like Gary Sanchez is the only highly touted minor league catcher who's ever actually made it for the original team that he was highly touted on. Everybody else bounces around. We'd like it better if he could actually catch, but his offense more than makes up for that.

But yeah, letting the ball go through his legs is a little troublesome. Yeah, he doesn't always catch the ball. No, that's a little disconcerting. It reminds me of my son's 10-year-old baseball games where the poor ump who's behind the catcher, half the time the catcher misses the fastball that then just nails the umpire in the chest protector thing. And the poor guy, it's like he's under assault for three hours. All these pitches flying around.

That must be how the umps feel when Gary Sanchez is in front of them. Like, oh, fuck. I'm making him hit the balls. There was a game the other day, and they brought in Chapman, and he threw one like 102, and there was no chance that Sanchez was going to catch it and hit the ump right in the mask. Chapman was all mad at Sanchez,

and it was like, you could have had three catchers back there. They weren't catching it because Chapman was so wild. But it's like, he automatically blamed Sanchez. Like, you got to catch that. So that one was one that was not Gary's fault. But he had the one last night. I forget who was batting. But he was struck out, struck him out.

And then the ball went through his legs. He couldn't handle the slider. Not through his legs. That was the other day. He couldn't handle the slider. It went off to the right. Guy gets on base, extends the inning. It was just a little shit like that is bothersome.

Are you scared of J.D. Martinez? I had a 450 home run and I forget about it. Yeah, true. Are you scared of J.D. Martinez? I thought he was a little frisky. Yeah, I was surprised. But yeah, he had some good at-bats and I was a little nervous about him.

It definitely, that addition was good for them as much as I hated that because it extends their lineup and you got him following Hanley nervous about him. It definitely, that addition was good for them as much as I hated that because it extends their lineup and you got him following Hanley. That's pretty capable 3-4 there. So yeah, he did make me nervous. Not as nervous as Mookie, but there were a couple of times I was like, we don't want J.D. Martinez coming up with guys on base. He did have a four-home run. I think he had a four-home run against the Yankees a four-homer game against the Yankees last year or the year before.

So, you know, I don't want him to start becoming a Yankee killer. So, yeah, he did make me nervous. The problem with Mookie is he's coming up after the end of the lineup, which has been a quagmire. And he's on pace to have like 65 homers and 72 RBI. I know. I was watching their, the Yankees had a day game the other day and the Red Sox were playing at

night and I watched some of their game and then they were talking to the, in the post game and Cora was like, well, we'd like him leading off because he gets a lot of at-pads, but I'm like, there's nobody on base though. I mean, that back of the lineup when it turns around again, it's just awful. Like if they drop him down, you know, he's hitting everything in the world. He's going to knock in a lot more runs. It seems that would be more valuable than getting a multiple at-bats

where there's nobody on base. It doesn't make a lot of sense. So right now we have, are we tied now? Yeah, 25 and 10 for both of them. And then you have the Astros at 23 and 15 getting more publicity than the Yankees or the Red Sox. Everybody, we wrote a piece on The Ringer about it, how incredible their starting rotation is.

All I can say is scoreboard. We got like a three-game lead on those losers. You know what's crazy is that it's May 9th. There's another almost five months of the season to go. And the American League playoffs, it's basically set, right? It's going to be the Yankees and the Red Sox. One's going to win the East, and one's going to be the wild card. The Indians are going to win the Central.

And then it's going to be Houston and Anaheim. And one of them is going to win the division, and the other one is going to be the other wild card, right? Is there any doubt? I think Houston wins the division and the other one's going to be the other wildcard, right? Like, is there any doubt? Well, I think Houston wins the division. Right. And then it's the Mariners versus the Angels for that second wildcard spot. All right.

Or maybe they get both of them. Actually, I did my math wrong. Yeah, it'll be the Angels and the Mariners in the wildcard game. Well, no, because the wildcard will be, it'll be either the Red Sox or the Yankees who don't win the division oh yeah you're right so the angels mariners for that second spot yeah yeah but essentially like unless unless the yankees or red sox completely implode and toronto is somehow to get back in the mix which i don't think it's going to happen i mean it's like may 9th and you basically that you could just pencil in the playoffs right now, right? In the American League. Well, I think yesterday,

between getting no hit by the very, very underrated, but not by anybody who's in an American League-only fantasy league, James Paxton, and then their closer had a really bad domestic violence situation, we might not see that guy again. Right. I think Toronto's done. So the Mariners versus the Angels, for some reason,

I'm still not 100% buying the Angels. Really? Like, Otani's already had how many injuries and little minor things and stuff, and it's not even mid-May yet. And he's had blisters and a couple of – I don't know. I just don't trust that one. I don't think their lineup is that good. I, the Mariners are kind of grown on me.

The funny thing is if you, if you look at the American league, like I looked at the American league central today, the Indians are like 17 and 18 and they have like a two game lead. Yeah. Central is an atrocity. The twins show the worst Baltimore is one of the worst teams in the history of baseball. It, you know, it's ridiculous how bad the, if you look at the one of the worst teams in the history of baseball. It's ridiculous how bad, if you look at the rest of the American League, it's horrible. Well, that's the thing.

The Machado trade is going to be what probably swings the fabric of it a little bit, assuming he gets traded in the AL. Yeah, depending where he goes. Angelos would probably rather trade him to the National League if he could, obviously. But yeah, if somebody gets him, that's going to make a world of difference. Yeah, because the Astros... Because they have no place to play him. Well, neither do the Astros. The Astros and Yankees have no spot for him.

Right, which limits the market. The Red Sox, him next to Hall of Famer Xander Bogarts would be great, but we have future multi-MVP Raphael Devers, too. We don't have a place for him. Right. He can't play for us. If the Sox were to get him and they say that Devers, okay, you're on the bench now or whatever, but then... No, we're not doing that.

No. Either Machado or Bogarts has to move to third then, and they both want to play shortstop, so that causes problems. We don't like him anyway. Stay away from the Red Sox, man. Boston hates him, right. So it's interesting. I mean, literally, the American League East, the winner's going to have 120 games

and the loser's going to have 119, the second-place team. Because I get to play Baltimore 19 times. I forget, the Yankees have already started off awful against them, incredibly, when the Yanks were in the doldrums at the beginning of the season. I like the haves and the have nots in the American league. This is what we grew up with and I want it to come back. Right.

It's crazy. And the central is like, you know, the Indians are going to win that division with 82 wins. Johnny D. Do you think 40 years from now, you're bouncing, bouncing your grandkids on your lap

telling them about the Vegas-Tampa NHL Finals in 2018? It's funny you said that I meant to text you because I've been listening before Francesa came back now I alternate between Francesa and Mad Dog Russo on Sirius

and the other day he had a hockey guy on and the hockey guy's prediction for the stanley cup was tampa against winnipeg and i seriously because you know he's always joke about like the nbc promos when there was no stars or anything or like the most obscure possible championship right winnipeg tampa for the stanley cup i don't think that could ever be topped gary betman literally will be out on the ledge on like Fifth Avenue of wherever the NHL headquarters is, like having to be talked in off the ledge. I mean, is anybody on earth going to watch Tampa Bay if it's Tampa Winnipeg?

I keep calling him Tampa Bay. It's probably not the Tampa Bay. Tampa Winnipeg. Or the Tampa Bay. No, it's the Tampa Bay Lightning and the Winnipeg Jets. Like literally, is anybody in America going to watch that? That would be the funniest thing in the world. That would literally get negative ratings.

Tampa, Winnipeg, what? What was the first one that was our joke for that? I feel like it was the late 90s i'm gonna say like 1999 and it was like the possibility of an indiana portland nba finals we were like smiths wallace and we're doing the fake nba uh finest commercials for those right yeah i'm rooting so hard i mean you know the whalers don't exist anymore the rangers to the extent that i'm a bandwagon hopper hunter i need an hl team the rangers are out of it i i couldn't root any harder for a tampa bay winnipeg stanley

i can't name i can't name one guy on Winnipeg. I honestly can't. If you could offer me, you can offer me $5,000 and I wouldn't be able to get one guy in Winnipeg. I know Tampa just cause the Bruins played them. So I actually watched those guys. Winnipeg. I have no idea.

And they have McDonough and Callahan from the Rangers. So I do know that. And once the guys, they have Stamkos is a big player, but like, I literally couldn't name a single guy on Winnipeg. Callahan from the Rangers, so I do know that. Once the guys, they have Stamkos as a big player, but I literally couldn't name a single guy in Winnipeg. The biggest thing is

it's almost like if Hartford just randomly got an NBA team this year and they were in the finals, and everyone's just saying, you still have the tags on your hats, and the tags on your jerseys. And you're all of a sudden in the finals.

Well, the Mad Dog and the hockey guy, Mad Dog was like, I got a little problem with the NHL. I mean, look at this draft. Because they got an expansion team. And they got all these phenomenal players. Like, weren't teams allowed to protect anybody? It was ridiculous. They won their first playoff game this round.

It was like 8-0. They won. And their expansion team crazy we had we had katie bakes on the podcast yesterday and she was saying that when they actually did the draft people weren't that impressed by who they got so she was like it wasn't one of those things where they did the draft and people were like oh my god we did this wrong they're too good they were like, that's kind of a weird team. And then it kind of throw. Yeah. So Francesa's back. Right. It's been a somber Mike Francesa so far. It has been. I think it's a sheepish Mike Francesa because when you go out in a blaze of glory and you're burning every bridge behind you and then you have to go back and rebuild the bridge and

crawl back over it, it's got to be tough. And all he does is hype up this app that's basically like, what's this app going to do for me? It's going to change my life, apparently. Get me up and shower me and get me dressed and put me in a Ferrari or something. He hypes the hell out of this app. And it's really going to be like his sports football show. I don't think it's going to be that revolutionary.

I love Francesa. I love Francesa. You love Francesa. Me too. I thought it was hilarious when he, his comeback show and he's like, I think apps are going to be a big thing. Yeah, right.

I think apps, it's like, we've had apps for like a decade. Apps. I took, Apple makes like billions of dollars off apps. I think, I think there's this thing coming called apps,

and I think they're going to be big. I'm going to go out on a limb and say cars might be better than horses. I think it might finally be time that a car might be the way you go to work. I think there's this thing coming called streaming video. It's going to be huge. It's going to potentially replace cable and satellite, mocked by words. Right.

But, uh, how long do you think they spent with Mike at dinner with the CA guys and Mike, where they explained them the difference between apps and appetizers apps, like fried mozzarella sticks. They're like, no,

no apps. I know the apps for your computer, like apps, like, uh, mushrooms. The funniest, uh,

the funniest thing is that he, you Twitter, as you pointed out to me, and said he's going to be on Twitter. The first day I'm listening, he's talking, he's like, I'm going to be on Twitter, Snapchat, Instagram, whatever he's on. I know he's on Twitter. And then people would call up and be like, are you going to be live on Twitter? Will you respond to that? And he's like, no, it's going to be run by other people.

Just shut it right down. No, that'll just be to tell promos and when the app's coming out. Like, oh, thanks, Mike. Your Twitter feed's fantastic. If I ask you a question, you will never be there to respond or look at it. I would not be engaging with any of you. Exactly. It was funny.

Mike, what about questions about the Winnipeg Tampa Stanley Cup? Can I send those to you on Twitter? What about Winnipeg-Tampa Stanley Cup? Can I send those to you on Twitter? What about Winnipeg's backup goalie? Who do you like in that one, Mike? They'll probably rig it so that it's Washington-Vegas. That's what David Stern would do. Washington-Vegas is a fun series, even though nobody could recognize the Vegas uniforms or anything.

Gary Bettman learned at the knee of Stern. Isn't that where he came from? He was like a Stern underling. So if he, you know, Stern's going to call him up and be like, you have to throw yourself in front of this Tampa, Winnipeg train that's coming down the track.

I can't say Tampa, Winnipeg without laughing. It just cracks me up so much. I want that so badly. I have never wanted anything more in my life. The funniest thing will be it's this 25-year tradition of whoever wins the cup. It's like the happiest moment of the fan base's life. And then Bettman comes out and they immediately turn and boo him for three minutes.

Absolutely. So Vegas wins the Stanley Cup and Bettman has delivered them this team. All he's done is done positive things for the people of Las Vegas with hockey. Like he brought them an expansion team. He's expanding. Nobody understands it. Phoenix shouldn't even have a team that could have just disbanded. Phoenix moved it to Las Vegas.

Now he's going to take more money and keep the crappy, terrible Phoenix team. And then so he's going to come out. They're not going to boo him. This might be the one place where he doesn't get booed. Well, how about Winnipeg? Winnipeg was like the Whalers where there used to be a Winnipeg Jets and then they left.

I think they're the team that moved to Phoenix and there was no Winnipeg Jets and then he got them to have a Winnipeg team back. Right. But they're still going to boo him even though he gave them their franchise back. If they win the Stanley Cup, not only do they lose a team and they get a team back,

and then if they win the Stanley Cup, but they're still going to boo him. I bet to Winnipeg. I went there for an ESPN piece in 2001 when... Remember Brian Dennehy in Season of the Brink? Yes. Remember they did that movie? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Bobby Knight one. If you Google my name and Season of the brink. Yes. Remember they did that movie. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Bobby Knight one. If you Google my name and season on the brink, Brian Dennehy, there's some article I wrote about it in 2001. I didn't have enough. Yeah. I didn't have enough juice to stop it. And they sent me there and it was,

I'm going to say January and it was, it was like minus nine and it was minus 40 windchill and like everybody in the hotel the one nice hotel that they have there everyone's like don't stay outside for too long like not even not even it's bad for your health it's like you'll die and the downtown was like one block. And it was just incredible. I was like, how did this place have a hockey team? This is my reaction in 2001. Like, oh my, they had a hockey team here?

This place is like the size of my fingernail. And it's freezing. And now they have a hockey team that might make the finals. Yeah. But I've heard on Mad Dog that their fans travel and their fans are rabid. They're like, because it's probably like Green Bay Packers. Like it's the only thing in town and everybody is super duper into it and they love it. And don't let my laughing casting the aspersions on the fine citizens of Winnipeg or its hockey team. But just the notion that that's going to get any kind of a rating is so badly ridiculous. When the casual hockey fan, if there's an original six team in it, they'll be like,

oh, the Bruins, I've heard of them, or the Blackhawks. Oh, yeah, I like the uniforms. There is no juice with Winnipeg, Tampa. None. No. Well, you know. Yeah, I don't want to make it seem like I don't think Winnipeg should have a team because I think 12 Canadian cities should have a team.

There should be more teams in Canada. I don't know whynipeg should have a team because I think 12 Canadian cities should have a team. There should be more teams in Canada. I don't know why Phoenix has a team. It still hasn't been explained to me. There should not be a team in Phoenix, and there should not be a team in Miami. No one's leaving Miami to go into an ice rink. Nobody wants to go to Phoenix and do an ice rink. Nobody understands hockey. Nobody grows up playing it.

Both those teams should move to Canada. Or Hartford. Yeah, Hartford should have one of those teams. One of those teams should move to Hartford, and the other one should move to Quebec City. There you go. Problem solved. You could have a new NHL team,

and it could be run by new GM Gino Auriemma, and then everything, and assistant GM Rebecca Lobo, and you bring in all these UConn women's basketball stars, and maybe Kevin Olley's the announcer and you just suck it right into UConn. Yeah, poor Kevin Olley. Does UConn have a coach yet?

Yeah, they hired, what's his name? Bobby Hurley. Danny Hurley? No, Danny Hurley. Oh, that's right. Bobby Hurley was the better player. Danny Hurley from Seton Hall. He was a player at Seton Hall. And then he was the coach at URI.

He's the new Yukon guy. You excited? Sure. Sure. Sure. Why not? Sure. I don't understand why he took that.

I don't understand why he took that job because he was being groomed or not groomed, but he was being sought after by Pitt. And Pitt is in the, I don't know these conferences anymore, but they're in a good conference, Pitt. Are they in the Big Ten? I think they're in the Pac-12. Yeah, they're in some conference that's better than whatever UConn's in. Let's put it that way.

And even though they went 0-17, are they in the ACC, Pitt? Maybe it's even better. They might be in the ACC. Who the hell knows? And they went 0-17 in that they in the ACC pit? Maybe it's even better. They might be in the ACC. Who the hell knows? And they went like 0-17 in that conference, but still, that's like a real conference. You can recruit real players there. But Danny Hurley always had, it was like his dream job to come to UConn. And so they're fired up.

They say it's like getting Calhoun when he was young and in his prime. Before he became the Sir. You could recruit players, but you know, the American conference, I don't think has a great deal of pull, but sure. All the best for Danny Hurley. Good luck to him.

Danny goes in and sees Gino and he's like, Hey, I just wanted to introduce myself from Danny. And she was like, get the fuck out of here. You will never step on my throne. You'll be over there. This is my town,

baby. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Jacko. Always a plan Jacko, give me your 30 seconds on Trump before we go. Wow, just 30 seconds. I'll give you 42. Today was a classic Trump because I saw something on Twitter where apparently he had a press conference, but a cabinet meeting and the press was in there. Somebody said, do you do you think you deserve the Nobel Prize because of his alleged brokering of peace in Korea?

And he's like, well, everyone's saying I do, but I would never say that. God, who else would say that on Earth? Everyone's saying I deserve it. I wouldn't say that myself, but I'm such a clown. Who's saying that? Did one person say it? No, I don't think. I think the president of South Korea, because he knows the way to get whatever you want. But the United States is just to suck up to Trump and tell him he's like a god king and then you get what you want.

I was at dinner last night with my dad and my Uncle Don. And we started talking about Trump. And my Uncle Don was like, it was something about, well, maybe Trump will, who knows, maybe he won't get reelected and there's only two years left. And Uncle Don was like, it's crazy that he's still the president. I mean, look at all the stuff that just happened last week, and he listed three things, and we're like, yeah, this is crazy. We're so deep into it at this point

that the fact that he paid off a porn star and laundered the money through his lawyer and then reimbursed the lawyer, that would have sunk, I think, any political figure we've ever had up till now. Just that one incident. It redefines the Tyson zone. I mean, you know, I remember the Bill Clinton thing with, you know, his mistresses and the Monica Lewinsky thing.

And that like basically ground the country to a halt. And that was the subject of like infinite amounts of cable news viewing and stories and bombshells and newspaper articles and magazine articles. Stormy Daniels, I can't turn on my computer without her being on Yahoo and Google and everywhere else you go. And she's like a household name now. And people are just like, oh, yeah, Trump had sex with that porn star and had a shell company to pay her off. Everyone's like, eh, whatever. We just move on to the next insanity.

Well, it's going to be interesting if Biden runs against him. And you know, Trump will play up the whole plagiarism thing from 30 years ago. Right? Oh, no question. Calm, like lying, Joe Biden,

lying, Joe plagiarizing Joe. It'll just like beating that in the ground. And he'll just be, he'll be like the underlying theme. We'll be like, look, everybody's a bad person.

Exactly. You might as well vote for me because Joe Biden's a bad person too and that person's bad and we're all bad, we're all crooks. And the thing that Trump did was usher in this era of all these people that are just like insane people

that shouldn't be involved in politics. Like this dude that just ran in West Virginia, the Republican primary, and he owned some mines and people got killed and the guy went to jail. And he's running and talking about China people and people didn't run him out of town

on a rail everyone's just like, oh well he could win it's like a circus, it's insanity I don't know why I laugh but it's I guess, what is it? tragedy plus comedy equals time

there hasn't been enough time yeah whatever it is yeah that i love the fact that rudy giuliani is involved again who's just a flat-out lunatic like oh yeah and he's so past his prime it's ridiculous and he comes out with some idiotic statement and then everybody's like what did he just say and like what did he just admit to and then the next day they're like oh he didn't mean to admit to that series of crimes. Like, just forget about it. You know, Rudy's a little confused. Like if Rudy was in your family and you're having a big family dinner, like your daughter's birthday party.

And your wife was like, Uncle Rudy's coming. And you'd be like, oh, really? Yeah. Uncle Rudy's coming? Oh my God. Yeah, if Uncle Rudy starts talking to you, can we have a signal to get away from him? And this guy is in a position of power.

This is the guy after 9-11 that was America's hero and triumphant in the face of tragedy on that day and everything else. It's a perfect example of just staying on the scene too long. You got to know when to retire. You got to know. You know, you got to know when to retire, you got to know when to exit, you got to know when to exit the stage. I think it was Rudy's time a while ago. Yeah, a while ago, 2002.

It's crazy. When Derek Jeter was good. Sorry. I wonder if Trump will welcome the 2018 Stanley Cup champion,nipeg Jets to the White House, even though they're not from America. Very available. I want to know if this Yankees team does really well when Trump ingratiates himself. This whole Yankees thing will be funny to watch. New York is ascendant.

Yeah, that's the part I'm most dubious about. Trump attaching himself to the Yankees. That's when the season will start to implode. I'm going to the Yankees game. I'm sitting in the first row. It's a wonderful, wonderful team. I'm very proud of these large men. Take pictures.

They're winners like me. I love winners. Aaron Boone's a winner. Aaron Judge is a winner. I met Giancarlo Stanton and his roommate. They showed me pictures of the furniture. It was wonderful. It's got a beautiful couch.

It's a beautiful kitchen table. Beautiful view of the city. It's great. It's wonderful. All right, Johnny. This was a pleasure as always. We'll talk to you soon. Take care.

Excellent. All right. Take care. All right. as always. We'll talk to you soon. Take care. Excellent. All right. Take care. All right. Thanks to David Griffin. Thanks to Jacko. Thanks to ZipRecruiter, our presenting sponsor. Go to ZipRecruiter.com to check them out. Thanks to Hotel Tonight. They help you book amazing deals at great hotels up to 100 days in advance in top destinations and up to a week in advance everywhere else. Whether you need a sweet deal and a nice room for today, for the winter or beyond. Start scoring amazing deals at incredible hotels and download the Hotel Tonight app right now. Thanks to Casper. Start sleeping ahead of the curve with Casper. Get $50 towards select mattresses by visiting casper.com slash BS using BS at checkout. I got a Casper mattress and dumped my old one on nephew Kyle.

Enjoy my old mattress, nephew Kyle. That's casper.com slash BS. Offer code BS for $50 off your mattress purchase. Terms and conditions apply. Go Celts. Let's bring it tonight, Boston. And we'll be back Friday on the BS Podcast. Until then.