The Bill Simmons Podcast - LeBron's Pyramid Rise, Toronto's Future, and Round 3 Thoughts With Joe House, Plus Celtics Co-owner Wyc Grousbeck | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 364)

Episode Date: May 11, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons calls Joe House to tell him that LeBron has jumped Bill Russell and is now no. 2 on his all-time list. They talk about today's conditioning and health knowledge versus other basketball eras, the 76ers-Celtics series, Raptors coach Dwane Casey getting fired, and fake trades for DeMar DeRozan (4:25). Finally, Bill connects with Boston Celtics co-owner Wyc Grousbeck to talk about the franchise's strong roots, working with Danny Ainge, the Brooklyn trade, Boston's rookies, and more (58:55). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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you get more than just an agent. You get a teammate that gets what matters most to you. Go to StateFarm.com to get an agent that gets you. Speaking of getting, we announced today a brand new podcast for us. Our first music podcast. We have been trying to figure out how to do this for two years. We did not just want to have, you know, we've had a lot of success at The Ringer with the podcast of the two or three people shooting the shit. And with music, it's just hard because people like different types of music

and you can't, it's not like basketball. Like Kaus and I are going to talk about LeBron James in a second. You'll be like, I'm talking about LeBron and everybody who watches basketball is going to have an opinion on LeBron. Sometimes in music, people like certain things. They like certain genres. So we spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the right music podcast would be and came to the decision. It would have to move in a bunch of different directions. So we were calling the podcast On Shuffle. It's something that moves a lot over the course of the pod. It is hosted by Micah Peters. We think he's ready. He's like Jason Tatum. He's ready for a bigger role in

the playoffs. He's ready to be a go-to guy. And it's a pod that I think has a chance to be really, really good and really valuable week to week. And it's going to use a lot of our staff, some outside people, have recommendations, arguments, all kinds of stuff going a lot of different directions. Keep you on your toes. It is called On Shuffle. And you can go to the Apple Podcast app. You could go to Stitcher. You can go to Spotify, SoundCloud, wherever you get your

podcasts. Subscribe to it. It is coming next week on Shuffle. Finally, a ringer music podcast. This is going to be a good one. Also, speaking of podcasts, I went on the Dave Chang show yesterday. Episode three of the pre-opening diaries. We decided to run it because the first three were before the restaurant launched. Great review of the restaurant, by the way, in the New Yorker just went up this week. But this third one was fun because he was in a pretty dark place with how things were going and trying to figure out the menu.

And it was at the most critical point of when he was trying to figure out the restaurant and he was starting to, I don't want to say break down, but get super tense about it. So we had a good conversation about that and a whole bunch of other stuff. The Dave Chang Show. Subscribe to that now.

Check out TheRinger.com. We're all in on basketball playoffs. Whole bunch of stuff. It was an action-packed week, actually. Rob Harvella had a good piece the other day about the evolution of the dick joke that I would highly recommend. But there's been a lot of good stuff this week. TheRinger.com, check it out. Coming up, we're going to talk to Joe House

about everything that's gone on in the first two rounds and maybe what's coming. And then also Celtics owner Wick Rosbeck is going to call in at the tail end. And we're just going to talk about this amazing Celtics playoff run and his 15 years with the team. He's a busy guy. We only had him for like 17 minutes,

but that's coming up after house first Pearl Jam. All right, it's a relatively gloomy Friday here in Southern California. Not sure why. Things are looking up for L.A. Kawhi Leonard was at a Dodgers game last night. We ran the video on the ringer. He didn't go to any Spurs games house, but he went to a Dodgers game. He found time to do that.

You're not reading anything into this. Well, here's one reason that it ought to be sunny on the horizon there in Los Angeles. Adam Perry Lange's restaurant is open. I saw meat. Yeah. We have that and we have the Major Domo. There's overeating to be had in the LA area. I have a dramatic announcement to make. We can talk about Kawhi in a second.

Alright. I've decided that LeBron is the second best player of all time. Hey! Congrats! Who did he jump over? I've moved him up on my rankings. Yeah, he jumped Bill Russell.

Russell. Yeah. Bill Russell, a long storied and phenomenal run as the second best basketball player of all time in my book ever since I wrote the book in 09. But really since, when did we decide Jordan was the best player ever? Like 97? Somewhere in there? Sure, 20 years.

Somewhere during that second three-peat. And Russell, his resume, which I expounded on. I had a Wilt versus Russell chapter in my book, and then I had a whole pyramid thing about Russell. And a lot of the book was built around how you can't value players just with stats, but their connection with other players and the secret, all the stuff I wrote about. Russell was the embodiment of that.

And also somebody that when he was playing and when he finished, everyone agreed he was the best player of all time. And then I think as the years go on, you, you know, this, what about these stats? Oh, we almost lost. And then people who weren't there start picking it apart but everybody who was actually there was like that guy was the best and everyone who played for against him was like that guy was the best so I think you could almost split it up into maybe giant eras is the way to go because obviously if LeBron played in 1962 he would

demolish everybody it's the league evolves and it grows. But I think Russell owned era one. I think Kareem owned era two. I think MJ owned era three. And then there was a little bit of a void where a few people were kind of holding the fort, but nobody really, Duncan was probably the closest to really dominating,

but I don't think he was ever as good as the three guys I mentioned. And then LeBron came in, hit his prime, and I think now he's the guy. And I think those are the four best players of all time. And then right underneath that would have Bird of Magic. What do you think? I like this. And I think that you ought to go ahead and rewrite a portion of the book

to build in the space concept and make a quick book. It'll only take you half a year to rewrite it. No, if I was going to redo the book, there would be a lot of things. I mean, Dirk was like in the 30s when I did that book. Now he's got to be like the 16th or 17th best guy ever because he won that title and he played for 20 years. There's things we just couldn't anticipate when we did the book or when I did the book.

Yeah, it's pretty good. I mean, the book could use a refresh. It's been 10 years. We have a full decade's worth of additional evidence and experience upon which to judge the current era and to measure it up against the previous era. And I do like this phase thing. I mean, I'm telling you, there's a dollar to measure it up against the previous era. And I, and I do like this phase thing. I mean, I'm telling you, there's a dollar to be had out there, brother. Well, there's also a lot of guys. So I wrote that book, I published it in 09,

and then I did the paper back in 2010. And I even had a section in there about most logical next wave of guys who are going to make the pyramid. And it was, and it's a really funny list. It's like, I think Durant was the odds on favorite and this was summer of 2009. That's a good one. Yeah. And I think it was Durant and Derrick Rose were the two favorites. And then there was Ricky Rubio was in there. Yeah. One for two. Ricky Rubio was in there. That is 500. But I mean,

now you look at the last nine, ten years, Westbrook, James Harden is making the case now to be one of the four best guards of all time. He's definitely number five.

Although, he looked like he was in mud the last two the last two Rockets playoff games. But there's just a lot of a lot of fresh blood. Anthony Davis

is in the league now. All these unicorns that have come in. My man, Jason Tatum's making a, making a run. So I had, I had 96 dudes in the pyramid and I left four spots open for the next time I did the book in 2019. But now I think, what do you think? It's, it's gotta be extended now to like 110, something like that. I feel like. 110 is the right number. Yeah.

I think that's right. Yeah. I think that's good. You know who's not going to be in it? John Wall? Mitch Richmond. No, Mitch Richmond. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, that's one of the reasons we did the pyramid. For the All-Star. I mean, for the Hall of Fame. When he went in, that's when I knew, oh, okay, the Hall of Fame is done. The problem, well, there's a million problems with the Hall of Fame, but they're just letting too many people in every year. That's right. I agree with you.

If they're trying to do eight guys a year, after a while, you end up with Mitch Richmond and Spencer Haywood and people who have no business being in the Hall of Fame. You know, like baseball, which has its own flaws with the Hall of Fame, but at least, you know, at least sometimes they'll have a year that nobody makes it or one guy makes it. They do seem like they delineate a little bit better. And then football is the opposite problem

because there's so many football guys. It's almost like they let in not enough. I like the stingier. I like them to be stingy. Yeah, and that was the whole reason I like the stingier. I like them to be stingy. Yeah. And that was the whole reason I did the pyramid in my book, which was an idea from my buddy, Gus's,

uh, father, my beloved English teacher in eighth grade at Greenwich country day, Wally Ramsey. Um, he, he thought the hall of fame should be pyramids and it should, as you kept going up the pyramid,

it would get more and more hollowed ground until you finally got to the last level. And those were like the guys. So I think when I did the book, LeBron was ranked 20. He'd only played like six years. And it was a projection. Because if his career had ended, like if he'd like broken his leg in nine places in 2009,

he wouldn't have been one of the best 100 players ever. But it was a projection, an assumption that he was going to be special. And I think we talked about this on a podcast a few days ago, but just to bring it back up, just to get your take. I think the thing that's really impressed me in these playoffs is that MJ kind of fucking around at the highest possible level, almost like he's bored by the competition combined with just like the killer

instinct he has now that I just don't feel like he had in the first two thirds of his career. Like he, he wanted to ruin that Raptors team. He really did. He wanted to just completely destroy them. And we've never seen that side of him before. And how about this mission accomplished? He did ruin them. He did destroy them, and we've never seen that side of him before. And how about this? Mission accomplished.

He did ruin them. He did destroy them. They fired Dwayne Casey this morning. Yeah, and they had to. They had to. They had to. Yeah, let's hold that because I want to talk about that because there's a couple interesting subplots in there.

Both of us vowed we'd never put anyone ahead of MJ. You're not wavering, are you? No, no, no. What if he wins the title this year? No. The problem is MJ won every championship finals that he was in. But he also, the leaving to play baseball and basically getting 94 off and most of 90,

he basically took a two-year sabbatical in the middle of his career, which LeBron, I think what's amazing about him is just year after year after year, he's there. He's playing the... Everybody's got weird stuff and things that you can point to. I mean, LeBron has been in the East his entire career, and the East, over the balance of his career, has not been as competitive as the West.

There's stuff you can point to. Yeah, I agree with that. That's fair. The thing with MJ is every time he stepped on the floor in a championship finals with Larry O'Brien at the end of the road, he won it. He was holding the LOB. the Celtics in the Eastern Finals because Indiana took Cleveland to seven. I think Boston's a better team than Indiana on both ends, especially defensively. And they have a much better coach. They have home court in the series, which Indiana did not have. And when you match up the lineups, Boston's top seven versus Cleveland's top seven, even with the incredible swing of having LeBron in there, Boston's complete seven is better, I think, more talented than Cleveland's top seven.

But the difference is LeBron. I texted you the seven versus seven, and you just texted me back LeBron 20 times. That's true. So you would have done the same thing for Jordan. I don't think you're there mentally yet with LeBron, but I think you're there deep down, but you just don't want to admit it. No, no.

The thing that I will always cherish and I will be telling my grandchildren about when it comes to LeBron is his sustained excellence. Yeah. The incomparable durability. He has, I'm knocking on wood. I never ever, I can't jinx this ever.. I'm knocking on wood. I can't take this ever. Loudly knocking on wood. He has been so good for so long.

If he propels this Cavs team to an eighth straight finals, that is unbelievable. In terms of his own experience, he's not propelling the Cavs to eight straight finals, but for him, personally, to be in the finals eight straight years, that in this era, that's a dude getting a job done. And I will forever, you know, be happy that I lived through both the MJ era and the LeBron era.

And it's not a knock on LeBron to say that he's 1B to MJ's 1A. I mean, the thing that really distinguishes LeBron is how much effing basketball he's played over the course of his, the 15 years. He's played an enormous amount of basketball, and it's been awesome basketball. Well, and that's why you have to confine it to eras, and this was a big thing, a big point I made in my book.

Like, Russell played 13 years only. So he played two less than LeBron. But those 13 years, the league was completely different and everything about being a professional athlete was different. You even look, sometimes the shoes. Half the teams, number of games, like everything. Well, but also like the shoes, the training, the dieting, the way they traveled, all that stuff. There were such hindrances.

If you go on eBay, sometimes they'll have sneakers from the 1960s. And you can't even believe people played in them. Honestly, like playing in slippers with no support at all for your ankles. It's ridiculous. It was like you wouldn't even play pickup basketball in the equipment that they had back then. So he was 13 years. He won 11 titles. He was the best player and the most dominant player.

He completely changed basketball. And for what that was, that was an amazing run. But now if you put the 2010s version of Russell into the league now, maybe he could play, I don't know, 18 years, 20 years. Maybe he wouldn't have aged as fast. I don't know. And I feel the same way about Jordan.

You read this stuff about what LeBron does and how he takes care of his body and how much money he spends on it. And a lot of these guys, I don't think it's just him. I think a lot of these guys are just completely overboard in a good way with what they're doing physically to keep their bodies going. MJ was in the very early stages of that. I remember he was one of the first. Yeah, he was on the cusp of it.

Yeah, remember it was like, oh, he's got his own. Tim Grover, right? Yeah, Tim Grover. It's like he's got his own trainer. We grew up in an era where, you know, there was one year when Larry Bird just showed up in shape and people were like, what happened? He's like, I've stopped drinking beer. And that was,

that was why he won three MVPs because he stopped drinking beer during the season. And then he had this, this run a little bit, I think it was before the 87, 88 season when he started working out on Nautilus and he was in much better shape and he had this two-handed follow-up dunk in an exhibition game and people were like, whoa, Larry Bird! He's working out!

And that was only 30 years ago. Now you have LeBron who's posting Instagram videos of him standing on these fucking balls as he's doing curls and people are like shooting paintballs at him and it's just different and he really might be able to play

to his 20 years it is a shame that medical science and the conditioning you know didn't exist in the way it currently does for Bird because I hated him

I hated him. I hated watching him play my bullets, but God damn, he was good. Well, the, especially so LeBron had this back injury in 2014. That wasn't much different than bird's back injury that, you know, was ended his career. Eventually he heard his back there in the middle of his three-year MVP run for the dumbest reason. I think any all-time great player has ever gotten hurt. He was tarring his own driveway in French Lake, Indiana.

And he hurt his back. Why the, why the legend wasn't paying somebody else to Tara's driveway, we'll never know, but he was like legendarily cheap with money and it would have killed him to spend $100 on having some worker in Tara's driveway for him. But it ended up changing the direction of his career and he was never, his back was never really the same.

Even 86, which was his best year, he was battling back issues like in the middle of that year and then did traction or something. And all of a sudden he was healthy again. But yeah, I mean, I think the competitiveness of these guys, especially when they see what everybody else is doing, you're trying to keep up with the Joneses, you know, and you see these Instagram videos of LeBron and you see these Instagram videos of James Harden after scoring 45 points, playing basketball at 1230 in the, at night, you know, getting more shooting it. I, that's gotta, there's a one-upmanship that I just don't feel like existed when we were growing up.

There was a one-upsmanship. We just didn't have, uh, the, the sophisticated, uh, approach this, this complete, you know, the combination of both the understanding and the tools available to implement the understanding of how, you know, it's basically a holistic thing, like every single thing from what you put into your body to how much sleep that you get to, you know, how you stretch to kind of all of it, all of that has matured in the 20, 25 years. And we have the tools right now for guys to take advantage of it. I mean, imagine MJ sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber. Imagine MJ sleeping.

Imagine him understanding how much better he might be if he slept as opposed to gambling all night. Maybe he wouldn't have, though. Maybe, I mean, maybe he wouldn't have been as effective in this era because he did like to do that stuff. And, you know, B.J. Armstrong told me this story about in the 1993 finals, if you watch closely one of the games, MJ is much darker than he usually is. And he said it was because he played 36 holes in Phoenix the day of the game. And he was sunburned.

And he was like, if you look, he was like, go look at one of those Phoenix games. He couldn't remember which one, but he's like, go look, he's much darker than he usually is.

He's played 36 holes before a finals game. So who knows? Maybe he wouldn't have, uh, maybe he wouldn't have been the same. But I do think LeBron has figured out how to extend all of the advantages. I think Bird would have done it. And then I think Magic also would have done it because Bird was doing it.

I think those guys would have fed off each other. Kobe, obviously, is something that became super important to him as a win along. I'm not sure Shaq I don't know if his career is any different no matter what the era is he had everything available to him he just chose a different path and I think this is fair that the thing I wrote about him

that I think still stands is he could have graduated with a 4.0 and he graduated with like a 3.4 but had an awesome time you know but he could have graduated with a 4.0 and he graduated with like a 3.4 but had an awesome time. You know? Right. But he could have graduated with a 4.0. He just was like,

no, I'm cool. I'm good. I'll take the 3.4 and the three straight finals. MVPs. What'd you think of that weird debate, by the way? Which debate? The Barkley and Shaq

getting super pissed at each other. I liked it because of how genuine it was. You know, I love it when they, you can tell when it crosses the line and they're just, you know, going directly from, you know, their own experience in it and they're just passionate about it

because it's their own lives. I wish that Shaq didn't do the, you know, you never play, you never won a finals thing. I just don't, I think at this stage, it's not as effective of an argument, but you know, now I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, quibbling about the, the, the, the debate points that Shaq made. Yeah. Barkley was incredible. His, you know, he obviously could have gotten

a little more out of his career if he had stayed in better shape, which goes back to the discussion we had. His best year was the first year in Phoenix when he was in monster shape. But that team was, I think, one of the three or four best teams that never won a title, that 93 Suns team.

I think in a lot of other years, they would have won the title, and they were really one of the first small ball teams. But Barkley had a weird thing about Kobe carrying Shaq, which I tweeted about this the other day. I don't want to go over it too much, but Shaq's, those three finals, it's unassailable. He just destroyed three different Eastern Conference teams and was one of the great three-year runs anyone's ever had in the finals. three finals, it's unassailable. He just destroyed three different Eastern Conference teams and had

that was one of the great three-year runs anyone's ever had in the finals. He was the most dominant player in the league. In 2000, that was one of the best start-to-finish seasons anybody's had. Kobe was not nearly close to being Kobe yet and had some flashes, but was not Kobe

yet. 2001, they were both incredible together. And that one, I think by the time from March through the playoffs, they were one of the five best teams I've ever seen. Those guys were just humming on all cylinders. I think they were averaging like 58 points combined for like four months. And Kobe was great. But in 2002, neither of them were that great

and they shouldn't have won and Sacramento should have beaten them. But when they got, all three times when they got in the final shack took care of business. And I always felt like Kobe was his overqualified sidekick. You did too, right?

Of course. Yeah. Hold on, we gotta take a break. Quick break to talk about State Farm with over 19,000 State Farm agents nationwide. You can get an agent that gets you as well as Luka Doncic might get Devin Booker in Phoenix potentially, or Trey Young might get Aaron Gordon in Orlando potentially, which is the focus of the ringers latest NBA relationship goals video. We covered a lot of the lottery picks, Trey Young, Don Chick.

I still can't say his name. God, I'm just going to call him Luca, but how those guys might mesh. What happens if Trey Young gets, goes to Orlando? He led the league. He led college with 27.4 points a game last year. They've needed a point guard. They've needed a slashing kick. That could be the match. Well, what would happen? Who would he mesh with?

Same thing for DeAndre Ayton of Phoenix. What if he gets paired with Devin Booker? They could run pick and rolls all day. You never know. That's the great thing about the lottery, how people get together. To see all this and more, be sure to check out the video that we did on TheRinger.com, TheRinger's YouTube channel, YouTube.com slash the ringer, the ringers, Facebook, or Twitter. And remember the like teammates on the court, a relationship with a state farm agent set you up for success off the

court. Go to state farm.com to get an agent that gets you. All right. So the one last thing on LeBron, if you're picking these guys for their careers based on, you just get their whole career. You get the, you know, this is a good exercise. Like you have this career, here's what you get. And that was the case with Kareem. It's like, you get Kareem, you're getting 20 years of a center who the first 11 years

was at the highest level you can play at the center position. And then for another six, seven years, you still get somebody who's going to put up 20 a game and you could go to at any point in crunch time and nobody can block the sky hook. So that's where you're getting, that's transferable to any generation. LeBron now you're getting 15 years of this indestructible force who never got hurt and who kept working on his game and kept figuring out how to extend his prime in ways that we have never really seen before. And if he's going to ever pass Jordan, which we never thought would happen in our lifetimes,

if he can do this for a few more years now, at some point, the totality of the years are going to be unassailable. If you can do this for 20 years, you would just rather have that than Jordan. You know, really? Well, he's got to win. He's got to win. Like if he wins this, this finals, I'll, I'll start to, to really reconsider or, you know,

not maybe not reconsider, but it really would add something, especially, yeah. Especially in view of the narrative we've enjoyed over the last couple of years with this Golden State team. And, you know, it's funny. He vanquishes this Golden State team. And it's funny. You see sometimes people now get mad when the Jordan stuff gets brought up. And it's like, oh, can't we just enjoy LeBron?

People love to get bent out of shape. This is fucking important. We're talking about who's the best player of all time. This is something you and I talk about all the time. We've talked about our entire lives since we've known each other. And it's the most important basketball conversation you can have. LeBron has a chance to pass Jordan. We never thought it would happen.

Round two, NBA Blues. So round two basically ends on Wednesday night. And now we have to wait three days for a game. And then this weird Celtics Cleveland thing where game one and two happens Sunday, Tuesday, and then they don't play again for four more days. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. I wish you hadn't told me that.

It's just like, I'm going to be sad. We didn't get the one seven game series we needed in round two. It's a bummer. If this never would happen, if David Stern was still alive, I thought they were going to do it to Philly and Boston. I went to game four. Uh, as soon as I saw Scott Foster, I knew I didn't have to cancel my plane from Philly to Boston

I was like oh good we don't have to cancel the flight and have my credit card charged but game 5 I thought the refs were actually good and I think Boston Boston was just a little more they didn't call a foul

Baines fouled Embiid on that in a game shot. Oh, come on. He smacked him right in the arm. Oh, come on. It was a foul. No. There's no two ways about it, but it's fine. Tatum got hacked on the game-winning basket underneath. McConnell crashed into him.

You saw that replay, right? They were missing a lot of stuff. He got the ball off before McConnell crashed. No, no, no. He caught the ball. Baines smashed. No, Tat, no. He caught the ball. He smashed. No, Tatum should have been a three-point play. Anyway. Anyway. I want to talk about Philly.

Did people, did you sit among the people? I did. I sat among the people in game four and was shocked by how much they loved their Lord and Savior, T and savior TJ McConnell. And how, and this was eyeopening to me. They unconditionally love Joel Embiid unconditionally love that guy. Not one,

even grape snarl, anything just all in on Embiid a hundred percent. And Simmons, it was very grumbly the whole game. It was very mad when he didn't shoot, mad when he missed, mad if he didn't push the ball. It was a lot of like, come on, let's go, Ben, and a lot of that stuff. And it was clear to me after leaving that game that Embiid is the favorite son.

Not really surprising. And then game. Is his ceiling favored son. Not really surprising. And then- Isn't his ceiling higher? I don't know. I think I, it's funny to see people pick apart Simmons like this because first of all, he's 20. Second of all, he had an incredible burden with that team

being a 6'9 point guard who had to run their offense to kind of figure out on the fly the difference between the regular season and the playoffs. And most important, do people realize that rookies usually struggle and suck in the playoffs, including some of the most famous basketball players we've ever had? Kobe Bryant? Kobe Bryant in the Utah series? He fucking airballed.

He completely killed them in the last two games. He was a year younger than Simmons. Maybe he was even a year and a half younger. But Simmons, like, go back and watch LeBron in 2003, 2004. Go watch one of the highlights of one of his games on YouTube. He's 40 pounds lighter and had no idea how to shoot a jump shot. Two things that hurt Simmons, though. He's been around longer. He didn't hurt Simmons, though. He's been around longer.

He didn't play last season, but he's been around. So he's been in our eyes and our consciousness, in our internet consciousness for two years. And secondly, you just mentioned it with LeBron, the number one thing that all NBA fans and casual fans as well subconsciously expect of their super duper stars is the ability to make baskets. And it just is unfairly held against him that he can't really shoot. He doesn't have a reliable mid range shot. I've used the word unfairly held against them because he overcompensates

with so many other unbelievable skills that he possesses. But if you can't see a guy make baskets, it gets held against that guy. Right. And that's the difference between Magic and Ben Simmons is that Magic could always score.

He could always get points. And that's why I think, especially after watching him two straight games, Jason Kidd is really what we should be thinking about with Simmons. And Jason Kidd was never a natural scorer. And even at his peak, when he started making a little more threes, he was always in the 16 to

18 point range at his peak. He was never a 20 point scorer. He was never a guy you could count out for 20, but dominated the game in so many different ways. Unfortunately for Ben, not a very good defender, really not that well coached yet. And if you watch that,

there we go. You said it. If you watch that last game, that last play carefully that Tatum, when they got the go ahead basket in game five, there's a great shot, both underneath the basket. And then there's another wide shot.

Simmons just loses Tatum. Tatum. I'd love to be. Tatum back cuts him because Simmons isn't looking and he goes right behind him and gets a layup. But Tatum was going behind him. Tatum was going, going,

going by him the whole series. Every time he wanted, he could go by him. That's right. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the decision-making conference room for the Sixers. I mean, I'm trusting the hell out of the process with them. Yeah. What is the sentiment inside that room about whether or not Brett Brown has, you know, we've reached the Brett Brown ceiling? Oh, not only did we reach it, I think we all banged our heads against it. He was terrible in that series, just flat out terrible.

He did not play McConnell soon enough. He could not adjust off the Stevens adjustments to his adjustments. And then game five was criminal. I was tweeting about it during the game. He was blowing through his timeouts. That was incredible.

He had, with seven minutes left in the third quarter, he had two timeouts left. And you know you're going to lose another one because of the TV timeout in the fourth. So then the last minute, he didn't have any timeouts. And they had the ball. They could have the ball up down three with three seconds left. He could have caught a timeout and had the ball

at half court and had all these guys who could make fallaway shots. I thought I just thought he I don't want to say he blew the series because I didn't think ultimately that team had somebody in the last two minutes of a tight game that they completely trusted. You know, they went, they would go to Simmons. He couldn't deliver.

And Bede, his conditioning was a real factor. And I saw in person, especially in game five, by the fourth quarter, his hands were on his knees. He did not have the same lift and he was not effective. So, so I want to, um, ask you, you saw him in person. Uh, one thing that, that seemed, and I'm sorry if I'm repeating something that a lot of very smart basketball people have already observed. Uh, I'm just a dummy and I'm not as up to speed on the NBA Twitter. I thought his basketball footwork, which I'm intending to distinguish from basically his agility and speed,

I thought his basketball footwork in this series sucked. And maybe it was a factor of conditioning. But I didn't think we saw him with spin moves. We saw him with up and under. We saw him with head fakes over the course of the season. And I don't know if it was because of how Boston and Baines in particular played him. We just didn't see any of that at the end of games

when it was time to make baskets. I feel like, you know, that repertoire is the thing. That's what really sets him apart. That's the thing that Philly should be able to trust at the end of games. You get the ball to him and let him do some of that stuff. Cause he's either, you know, the two outcomes are he makes, you know, a shot that should be in the, between, you know, 55% and 70% of going in, or he gets to the free throw line. Yeah. But the problem was they were playing him too many minutes and he'd never carried a workload like that in his life.

And on top of it, it's playoff basketball. So it's just more intense. It's more grueling. And I don't think they'd pace him. I personally would have played him 25 minutes a game and tried to peak him toward the last eight minutes because... So 18 of those 25 minutes in the third and fourth quarter

nine minutes in the third nine minutes in the fourth or whatever seven minutes in the third yeah you play him six minutes in the first quarter you play him six minutes in the second quarter maybe you play him 27 minutes I don't know but the cool thing about that Sixers team

and a real advantage they have that they never really exploited was they did have different lineups. And actually in game five, Brett Brown kind of lost his mind. He was just subbing like he was a hockey coach. But they could go small and they could go big. The Celtics only had seven players by game five.

And they was like, here, we only have five lineups we could play. And the Sixers had the ability to really mess with them. But I thought the key thing for them is they needed Embiid in the last eight minutes of those games. And he was exhausted every time. They blew game two.

They completely, in game three, they had a five-point lead in overtime. And then they didn't score again. They blew it. But yeah, the Simmons point, the key Simmons point for me is, can you score points? Because if you're not a scorer, your ceiling's just different.

See, I believe that he's going to become a scorer, your ceiling's just different. See, I believe that he's going to become a scorer. Because the shots are there. Now it's just practice. He's got to practice all the stuff we talked about the last time you and I talked. Little fall away shots, little in traffic double clutch shots. He's just got

to practice all that stuff. He has both hands. You he knows, you know, you know what kind of a weapon that is being ambidextrous, being able to do those short shots with the right or the left. Did Kevin O'Connor observe whether, did he ever pick a hand? Now KOC is out of his mind with this. This is like his number one passion in life. He wanders Hollywood Boulevard,

just berating people that Simmons shoots with the wrong hand. The reality is Bellinelli's feet were eight inches over the line in game three. Yeah. In game five, Redick with a minute left. And it was directly between my seat and the basket. And it was dead on and it was just short. But if he had a wide open three. That was in. And it was just short. But if he had a wide open three. That was in. And it was just short.

It looked in on television. You know, the thing with them, they really beat JJ up in that series. I haven't really, I want to get him on the pod next week to talk about it. Because I think by game five, he did not seem like he had his same legs and his shot was off.

You better be careful. He's not afraid to tell a coworker to go F. Oh no, he will. Get the F over there. Yeah, he was yelling at TJ McConnell. You're co-workers. Yeah. But I think his legs were gone by game five

because they were posting him up, banging him, chipping him on pics, and really working him. Why did he curse at McConnell? They're best friends. That's like you and I yelling at each other. It's fine. Yeah, no, I get it.

I'd tell you to go F yourself too, but what was the specific thing that set them off? I think they were mad about switches and stuff. Oh, okay. Philly had a lot of problems defensively. They just weren't ready for, they had the most talent of anyone in the East and they just weren't ready

and the little things ended up killing them. They really did. That's right. And Bede. That's the big picture answer. They just weren't ready. This was exactly what happens with young teams in the playoffs. We hedged

our position because they had the most talent just sort of on paper, and after what they did to Miami, the thorough disemboweling, it's like, well, it's been on talent just in case, and I think it was a fine hedge. I don't mind losing that.

Well, we did the hedge super early. We did it before the playoffs. We got good odds on it. But we could have gone with the Celts. Listen, I love the Celtics, and I'm a huge homer. I did not. I thought they were going to beat Milwaukee. I thought it was going to be a tough series.

I did not think they could beat this Philly team. One of the reasons I didn't think they could beat this Philly team one of the reasons I didn't think they could beat this Philly team is because they needed Tatum to go to another level that did not seem realistic because last year he played 29 games at Duke and he played 966 minutes so right now

he has played 92 games and 28 61 for minutes he's going to pass 3,000 minutes for the season during this Cavs series. And the last seven games, he was 20 and above every game.

He had 28 in the clincher game five. I thought he was unstoppable at times. Literally unstoppable. Philly couldn't stay in front of him. But listen to this, though. I looked this up. Only four rookies have ever played 600 minutes or more in the playoffs in their rookie season. Magic Johnson, Alvin Adams, 25 year old Manu Ginobili, and the one and only Jack Sigma who played 701 minutes as a rookie. Tatum is going to pass 600 minutes

during this Cavs series if he even plays 25 minutes a game. This does not happen. Nobody relies on rookies like this in the playoffs and they usually never go more than a round or two. And this guy is getting better as it goes along. And I think the ceiling for him, it's just as a Celtic fan,

it's just kind of all of us can't stop talking about it. We're like, what the fuck do we have here? We're the best rookie we've had in 40 years. Well, we have to have this conversation in the context of Fultz. And do you think as part of the broad sweeping indictment that we're levying against Brett Brown, do we include in there the fact that Fultz was not on the floor the broad sweeping indictment that we're levying against Brett Brown. Yeah. Do we include in there the fact that Fultz was not on the floor for defensive purposes?

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So I thought Brett Brown made a minor mistake not playing Fultz in the Philly series Because I think the crowd would have gone nuts You just got to throw him out there You give him the three minute whirl Just got to put him out Maybe he goes coast to coast makes some play And the crowd goes apeshit

But yeah I think I thought it might happen And it would have been fucking cruel And tough But Actually it couldn't have happened because the game was too close. But if the Celtics had been up by 10

with like a minute left, I do think a We Want Fultz chant would have started and it would have been a dagger. That would have sucked. It would have been a dagger. You really wouldn't have done that. No, in Boston. I don't think those fans Huh? I'm saying in Boston, game 5. Ah, right, right, right. We were folks.

That would have been funny. Yeah, but it would have also been mean. I almost wouldn't have joined in on that one. Oh, for the first time, Boston's going to be mean with a fan. Oh, they were giving. We had some people behind the Sixers bench definitely yelling at Simmons and Embiid. They were getting the Boston treatment. Embiid loved it.

Although I will say... Did you get the... What? Go ahead. I was going to ask if you got the Philly treatment when you were down there. No, everybody was pretty nice for the most part. I did have the one guy in the third quarter yell, Hey, Simmons.

And I looked and he just held up both middle fingers and told me to fuck myself. And then I was like, come on, what did I do? And he felt bad. But I left with about a minute left because I didn't want to take, I didn't want to, hey, Simmons, we're coming back. I also was very worried by that point because when Shane Larkin went out,

it was like, wow, we just don't have enough players anymore. But, uh, It was the guy who gave you the double middle fingers, Chris Ryan. No. Oh, it wasn't Chris. Okay. Uh, I tweeted this yesterday too. Morris and Semi and Semi Ojale.

Marcus Morris, my dad's least favorite Celtic, um, of the year and, and approaching top five all-time status. They played 39 minutes a game in that Philly series and shot 30%. So if you just give Hayward those minutes, I'm positive he won't do worse. I'm positive. I'm 100% positive Gordon Hayward will not be worse than that.

Just wanted to get that heard. I don't want to talk about next season. Yeah, I don't want to either. We have too much on the plate. We haven't talked about Dwayne Casey getting fired. Yeah, we got two things left. Enjoying Dodger dogs. We got two things left. Wait, let's rip through them. You gave the Celtics no chance against the Cavs, even though they have home court

and a lot of guys to throw at LeBron. There's no such thing as no chance. Of course they have a chance. They haven't started yet and a lot of guys to throw LeBron. There's no such thing as no chance. Of course they have a chance. They're in the fight. It hasn't started yet. And, you know, they have home court advantage and Brad Stevens is the coach. So they have a chance.

Of course they have a chance. I'm going seven games. It's possible in terms of injuries and stuff too. I'm knocking on wood. I don't want any injuries. I want both teams to be healthy all the way through the entire series. Cavaliers have the LeBron advantage. That's all I'll say. I'll just leave it at that.

I can be simple about it. I don't have to go crazy. This series will go seven games is plus 110. Hmm. Kind of feels like six to me. Okay. Cavs ended in six. That's

my... I'm going to be disappointed in the president, Brad Stevens, if he doesn't figure out a way to completely torch Korver and Love on defense. Come on, Press. They may be able to do that. Come on, Press. They have two awful defenders out there.

Please torch them. The interesting thing will be what he puts on the court in terms of an answer to the action that they developed. And really, you know, more than anything else, you know, in addition to LeBron, was the distinguishing factor in how they just wiped Toronto off the floor and got Dwayne Casey fired. Yeah. That two-man action between Korver and Love was the thing that changed the entire course of Cleveland's fortune. Stevens will take that out.

And on the face of it, it looks a little bit unstoppable. So this is a challenge. I'm psyched to see out of Brad Stevens. The Prez will figure it out. I'm excited. I think he goes seven. And I wouldn't bet against LeBador in a game seven ever in anything. No.

So Dwayne Casey gets fired. I thought, you know, the Casey, DeRozan, Lowry thing had to be broken up at some point. And I think we reached a point. Now, he benches DeRozan in game three. And they come back and they almost win. Doesn't put him back in. They lose the game. It's over at that point for Dwayne Casey. And there was a parallel. Remember the Clippers-Rockets game in 2015, game six, Clippers about to clinch up 18 and Mikhail benched James Harden's dragon ass because he sucked in that game.

Yeah. And that was it. It was like, I'm getting fired anyway. I'm going to get blamed for this. Fuck it. I'm going to put in five guys that I think can bring us back and sat James Harden's ass on the bench and he didn't move for half of the comeback. I kept watching him.

And then finally, when they really started coming back, all of a sudden James was standing up, waving a towel and they won the game. They won the series and they had to bring McHale back. I think that's what Dwayne Casey was doing with that game three. Cause I think he knew the fuck it. I'm going to get fired and blamed for this anyway. Here's my best chance.

But once you do that, you lose your best player. McHale lost James Harden when he did that. And Dwayne Casey at that point loses DeRozan. DeRozan gets kicked out of the next game with a stupid foul. But I just didn't see any way he's coming back. Coach Bud, does he make a difference? I would say no.

Is that the leading contender for there? Yeah, I would say you don't fire your coach unless you know who's next. And I would say Coach bud is next for me. Fundamentally, they can't guard LeBron. They haven't been able to guard him this whole decade and he owns them and they haven't found anybody who could flip that equation. Even when they got PJ Tucker last year,

PJ Tucker couldn't do it. He just owns them. And I don't know what changes no matter who the coaches, but I don't, I don coach is I'm not so sure this was an interesting ongoing dialogue on Twitter if your two best players are point guard and shooting guard you have a natural

handicap there there isn't a long track record of successful franchises here's why I hate that argument because Golden State won with Clay and Curry and people are like, well, except for Clay and Curry, it's like, no, you can't do the except. That can't also be your

argument, but then you have an exception for it. Golden State won, their best two players were guards. It's not an exception. By the way, Seattle won with two guards. Who's more valuable to who's been more valuable to Golden State than Draymond? Seattle won with two guards. The Pistons won with Isaiah and Dumars.

People have won with their best players being two guards. Wait, wait, wait. Seattle won with two guards in 1970. Okay. Seattle won in 1979. DJ and Gus. Famous Nike poster. Okay.

What do you mean okay? I'm just telling you. Everyone's like, you can't win a title when your best players are guards. You actually can. The Bulls won six titles with Pippen and Jordan. Pippen was a forward, but we've seen people win when their two best guys are perimeter guys. Okay.

I just think DeRozan and Lowry are the wrong guys. That's a different conversation. I agree with this. I went to the All-Star game, and I think we talked about this. The last five minutes they had all the best guys in the court and DeRozan was the guy who didn't really seem like he belonged out there

I don't think he's one of the best nine guys in the league you're not going to beat LeBron unless you have some sort of advantage and I don't know what Toronto's advantage was you either need an incredible coach or a bunch of dudes to throw at LeBron

or like something. But you're not doing it with the team Toronto had. I like that way of describing it better than saying Toronto couldn't stop LeBron. Well, they couldn't. That doesn't make them unique. I know, but they had no chance against him. He did whatever he wanted.

Well, I mean, but they had no chance against him. He did whatever he wanted. Well, I mean, in that event, you have to essentially outscore Cleveland. And the point you just made is the right point, which is DeRozan and Lowry aren't the two guys that are going to do that. Can I give you a fake trade I made up? Oh,

of course, always. I'm going to present this to you on a nice platter with some fruit and some hash browns on the side. You can dive into it. Extra hash browns. Okay, extra hash browns. DeMar DeRozan to the Los Angeles Lakers for Brandon Ingram and Luol Deng. Who says no?

I would say that the Lakers would say no, because Ingram, but the Lakers are, by all indications, by every report that I read on NBA internet, whatever, the Lakers are trying to win this year. So I think they would say yes.

I have three more things to go through with you and then we'll go. I think the Lakers say yes to that, by the way. You get DeRozan, you get LeBron, you get Paul George. You still have Lonzo. If you have DeRozan and George and not LeBron, and you have Kuzma and Lonzo, that's, you know,

you start to become a little more interesting in the West. DeRozan's an LA guy. That was the only reason I was sick about it. But I think, I think trading Lowry or DeRozan is the move at this point. I don't think you can keep both. I agree with this. But I don't know what the market is for those guys

when they make as much money as they do, which is why I thought of the Lakers, because it would give them a chance to dump that Dan contract, which they desperately need to do. It's funny when you look back at how close it seems that Lowry was to going to Minnesota and how might everything have been different. They wouldn't have ripped off

nearly 60 wins this season, Toronto. If you're Philly, would you think about Lowry? Sure. Absolutely. Yes. But not for faults. Mmm. Oh! Okay! Okay!

I mean, you know, Lowry was really poised against Washington. So I'm suffering from Doc Rivers-itis, which is I watched him eviscerate my team. And he was really good on the wing. I know that's not his strong suit. He was creating. And again, it was against my team. So no great shakes there,

but it's what I observed with my own two eyes. I was impressed by Lowry. In shape Lowry. Fultz and Covington for Lowry. Sure, sure. Robert Covington. Feels like a fair trade to me. I don't know.

Philly, I don't mean to pour salt in the wound, and I certainly don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I can just tell you, I'm rooting against your team during a playoff series and develop opinions on the guys on your team based on, am I scared of this person? Am I hoping they stay on the court because it's better for the Celtics?

Do I want them to shoot? I'm going through all these emotions. JJ Redick's terrifying. Every time he's open, you stop breathing. You're like, oh fuck, why did we leave him open? And Bede in game five had a stretch in the, in the second quarter when he was just completely overpowering. And you see like the ceiling of what he can do. And you're like, God, I went from wanting them to feed him the ball to now it's

like, how the fuck do we stop this guy? I always wanted Simmons to shoot at any point. So go through, I could give you my scouting report on all these guys, just based on how I felt. I always wanted Robert Covington to have the ball and shoot always at all points. It was like,

please shoot Rocco, please. He, he just is not somebody I see on a playoff team. I thought he was a real liability for them. He's a fine off-the-bench guy, energy guy. I think he'd fit in great with that bench mob up in Toronto. They're paying him $16 million a year next year.

That guy is not a great basketball player. That's Mahinmi money. I don't know what to tell you about that. That's some sunk cloth kind of shit right there, buddy. I think that was a huge mistake. And I think like, hey, man, he took some of the worst shots I've ever seen in my life in that series. Just really like atrocious shots. No, I'm not even exaggerating.

I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe he shot that. We weren't able to develop a scouting report on Markel Fultz because Brett Brown decided not to play him. I know, I know. Quickly, if you're New Orleans, do you bring Boogie back? No, you have to trade him to Washington. Why are you asking that? Well, that was my next question. Boogie for Otto Porter. Trade him to Washington. Why are you asking that? Well, that was my next question. Boogie for Otto Porter.

Boogie for Otto Porter and something else seems like a relatively kind of fair something. I'm not walking to say yes to that trade. I'm

sprinting. I'm sprinting. I'm putting on some very lean Nikes and trying to bring back some of my sub-two-minute 800 speed and sprinting to sign up to that trade. Last question, quickly. Why aren't I more excited about Houston Golden State? Because you have the Celtics in your mouth. No, no, no, no. Take the Celtics out.

I'm just... How can you take the Celtics out? It's going to be fascinating. It's a very fascinating... We get to see the real... This is Houston. This is the Maury mastermind. This is exactly what he wanted.

His plan in full display, I think it's fascinating. I don't think they're going to win, by the way. I'll get into it. It bothers me that Golden State is basically like, we can turn it on whenever we want. I'm holding it. We got to go. House.

Shaq House. You're going to get Adam Perry laying on House of Carbs. Shaq House. Golf's happening. good stuff's happening I think we're having Jordan Spieth's coach on Cameron McCormick on the Shack House oh excellent

we'll have to ask him why Jordan missed the cut this week presented by Callaway alright we'll talk to you soon House bye thanks buddy

alright we're gonna call Wick Gross back but first Amazon Music the simplest way to listen to the music you love discover tens of

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It had 36 songs. I did the post-Lithium era from 2002 to 2005, a very underrated era for music. New customers, start your 30-day free trial to AmazonMusic.com. Amazonmusic.com to start your 30-day trial free renews automatically, and you can cancel at any time. All right, we're going to call Wick Grosbeck. All right, on the line right now, I don't remember if this is the first time ever.

It might be. Celtics owner Wick Grosbeck, how are you? Bill, as you might imagine, I'm pretty great. So, I was talking to David Griffin on Wednesday and we were talking about organizational stability and what an advantage it is for certain teams.

And I was mentioning how the Celtics have had the same ownership group for 15 years. 15 or 14? Yeah, 15 now. 15 years. Same GM since 2004. Same assistant GM, basically since Mike Zarin was a baby in the Boston Garden, but I think since at least a decade. Same CMO, same president. It's just amazing. Nobody leaves. Everybody knows what they're doing. And after a while, it just

becomes like a machine. When did it become a machine for the Celtics? When I, you know, when I thought of all this in 02, I didn't know how to run a business period or an organization. I'd never done it. I'd never had an employee before. But I knew I had to find some amazing people to help me for sure. And first of all, putting together the ownership group, they've been very stable and committed and great partners. But then I had to go find a team president, Rich Gotham. I had to promote Sean Sullivan as CMO from within and Bill Reisfelder as CFO. And then we had to find a great basketball side. And we turned over the entire basketball side, general manager, coach, and everything, and came up after some trying and worrying and wondering,

came up with Danny and came up with Doc Rivers, which was a great nine-year run, and now Brad Stevens. So it's just been, it starts with stability with my partners in the ownership group. They've been fantastic. I thank them. It starts with stability with the fans. They've been supportive all the way through.

And then you got to hire great people. And luckily we've got Danny and Brad and Rich Gotham and Sully. You know, it's an amazing group. So when you look back at those first four years, what do you look at now and go, oh man, I wish I had known that year what I know now with blank. What is it? Yeah, I mean, there were a couple extensions of players,

one extension of a coach, things that just didn't, I didn't know how to run the team. I may not know now, arguably I don't know how to run them now, but I feel more comfortable now than I did the first four years where I was really trying to figure it out. And I wouldn't make any changes more slowly. In other words, I wouldn't have been more patient. I would have been less patient.

But it takes a while to settle in, and we weren't patient. We changed everything around. We changed everything around in business and basketball within the first two, three years. But it all needed to be changed, in my opinion. And no disrespect to anybody who was there, but we just wanted to go a new direction. And here we are feeling very lucky. There's been a lot of luck along the way. It's wrong for me to claim that there hasn't been a lot of good fortune and luck and a bunch of people chipping in.

But it's been a fun ride. Yeah, Steve, I talked to Steve Ballmer. I think I did a podcast with him about a year ago, maybe a little less than that. And he was pretty candid about when you take over an NBA team, especially when, you know, it's always somebody who's had success in other parts of their life and they have confidence in their own opinions and what they're going to do. And then he's just like, he's just completely different. And now he looked back and he was like, man, I just had no idea what I was doing. And now I kind of get it. And it seems like that's a recurring theme. I have not seen an owner yet go into the NBA and just get it immediately. But I also don't understand

what there is to get, what flips where people are like, oh, now I understand it. Well, I don't think it's so hard. I actually, I feel like I, from the very beginning, I decided that I was going to run it the way Red Auerbach would want me to run it or Larry Bird or Bill Russell. If I could possibly figure out what that was, I was going to try to do the best thing for the Celtics, for Celtic pride, for another banner. And that's not a marketing spin.

It's just the truth. And I know you're a longtime follower of the Celtics and your dad's a season ticket holder and all. I mean, I know you're close to the, you know what's going on with the team and, you know, we've, that's the way we've tried to run it. And so when you have that touchstone in your mind, you're not saying we've got to run this to make money.

We've got to run this to squeak by. We've got to run this, you know, just at the luxury tax level or just at the hard cap level, whatever, you know, whatever it is, we don't have those constraints because we have strong ownership and strong fan support and media partner support. So we run it as best we can for a banner and for Celtic Pride. And so anyway, it doesn't always maybe work out. Some years are better than others.

Some teams are better than others. Some decisions and trades are wrong. Some are right. But, but, but it's, it's actually amazingly easy to run a team when you have like your North star in place,

which is Celtic pride. So you have this run with KG and those guys, it ends, doc leaves, looks like we're headed for this long rebuilding stretch. And then this miraculous trade happens. But at the same time was a really painful trade. And it set up the next generation of what was going to happen with the Celtics. But you're trading Paul Pierce, who was one of the 10 best Celtics ever and a great representative of the franchise

and somebody that had come into his prime when you were the owner and KG, who everybody loved and taken on a huge contract back at Joe Wallace and these picks from a team that seemed like they were going to be a contender for that whole decade. Did they have to talk you into that? You you could admit it now it's been five years. They didn't have to talk you into that one. Okay. No, they didn't. It was, I tell myself at times like that,

that I'm the person that has to make those decisions because I do make the ultimate basketball decisions and, or I sign off on them or I modify them or I, or I reject them. So it stops with me. And I tell myself if anybody is supposed to be unsentimental and try to do the right thing and not have heartbreak, it's me. And I'm among the most sentimental or emotional people around. I love everything about the Celtics.

I love the players you just mentioned. So I have a lot of sentimentality, but I'm supposed to be all business in pursuit of the next championship or whatever. And so I watched us, I think we got swept. Anyway, I think it was losing to the Knicks. I should have refreshed my memory, but we lost to the Knicks in the first round. Yeah, in five.

And I'm like, these guys are in five. And these guys are not going to get us there. Therefore, we're going to get some new guys. And I did the same. We did the same thing last year. We got to the conference finals. We had the best regular season record in the East. And we changed that 11 out of 15 guys because that team wasn't getting us there, in my opinion.

So it's the exact same mindset I'm trying to adopt, which is, you know, what would a Navy SEAL do or something? I'm a long way from a Navy SEAL, but what do the Celtics need us to do? Because I've got to step up and make that decision. And you also have a GM who the joke has been for the last 15 years that he would trade his family members if it made the Celtics better. He just doesn't care. He does have a whole new family. He traded them off. No, no, he didn't. He didn't. He's very, he's got a great family and they're the same family,

but he would if he had to. Well, he's had a lot of kids. He could trade one of the kids. He might not know. What was the biggest disagreement you've had with him? Disagreement's the wrong word. Difference of opinion

on a major move that you guys talked out, figured it out. Well, I'd rather say, I'm going to answer the question I want you to ask, which is about the Brooklyn trade and the way that went. Because it wasn't a disagreement, but it was an evolution. Okay. As I recall, and Danny may remember slightly differently, but as I recall, he came to me with that deal on draft day and said, we're going to get two first round picks from Brooklyn for these guys and take on some contracts. And I said, OK, are they unprotected? He said, yes, in fact, they are. I said, great.

I said, let's go get a third pick. And he goes, well, all right, I'll ask, you know. And he's not afraid to ask. He wasn't pushing back. But he went and asked and he goes, well, but all right, I'll ask, you know, and he's not afraid to ask. He wasn't pushing back, but he went and asked and he said, unbelievable. Uh, we got a third pick. This was great. And I said, great, go get a fourth pick. We're going to keep going. I think these guys have deal fever. We're going to keep going until they say no. Uh, I think they've been told by ownership to get the deal done. And so let's go back. And Danny sort of gave me a look like, um,

I don't want to lose the deal by pushing too hard. Normally we try to, you know, be, uh, whatever, play down the middle of the road with people and, and all.

And I said, go push aggressively for a fourth pick. And, uh, and so he went back and said, he came back to me and said, okay, well,

you got your wish. They've said no. Now I said, fine. If that's what you wanted, they and said, he came back to me and said, okay, well, you got your wish. They've said no now. I said, fine, if that's what you wanted, they've said no, they're not going to give us a fourth pick. I said, fine, make that fourth pick into a swap. Because swapping a pick doesn't feel like you're losing a pick. You still have a pick. And it's pretty unlikely, honestly, that we would be able to swap. That would mean we were better than they are.

We think they're going to be pretty good with this trade. So just get the swap and we'll call it a day. So we got that swap and that swap turned into Jason Tatum and another first round pick. It turned into the number one pick in this year's draft. So that's how the Brooklyn trade evolved, as I recall it, which was working together with Danny to get the best possible deal out of Brooklyn.

I was doing the draft that year for ESPN and we had no information other than that we were trading all these guys and getting some picks back and no idea if they were unprotected. Didn't know about the pick swap. And I went on TV and I was upset when the trade happened because it seemed like we were getting these, I assume, protected picks from the Nets

and from a team that was going to be a finals contender, it seemed like. And then the totality of the trade the next day when it came out, it was like, oh my God, well, we got a pick swap too. Like it was, you know, but I, to be fair, I was, I mean, I don't think any of us felt that the Brooklyn's Brooklyn wasn't going to be a really good team for a reasonably long amount of time. So we, you know, it didn't look like it was a, you know,

an unfair trade in any way. It looked like they were ready to go with those guys. Sort of like we took Kevin at a certain, and Ray, at certain times in their career. And we wanted to make a run. And now, whereas, you know, that was Brooklyn's role in that thing. So I don't want to disparage Brooklyn in any way. They made a move trying to go for it.

And we made a move trying to rebuild. You caught a big break, though though in that trade about a year later because they actually changed their mindset of what they want to do with their team. And Prokhorov didn't want to spend the tax anymore. And he just didn't want to spend as much money on a contender. And that all of a sudden swung the equation because that first year after the trade, they were a contender.

People thought that was a team that might make the finals. But then they switched directions and he didn't care. He was in Russia. And that was the best thing that could happen. I don't want to agree or disagree with what you're saying about another team. It's not my role. Except I'm going to disagree. He does care. I know him

and he cares deeply. Alright. Can we disagree? Sure. He does care. I know him and he cares deeply. So. All right. You, can we disagree? Sure. He does care. Okay. So we can, you can disagree with that if you want, but he does care. Okay. Um, you got booed in 2016 at the draft, the Jalen Brown pick. It slipped my mind. You got booed and your feelings were hurt. Yeah, well, you know, it's okay.

It's the way fans have a right to do that. No, but we can talk about it. I think they were booing the situation, but they were also booing me. There I was getting booed. Well, you were a representative of the situation, which was that everyone was so excited about these picks. And as I've just done for the last five, 10 minutes, I take whatever credit for the situation when it's going well. So I've got to take blame when it goes badly.

So when you got booed that night, and it wasn't you getting booed as much as kind of the team and people frustrated because we had all these picks. All right, let's go. Let's get some guys. And everybody was just in this crazed mentality. And then it's like, here's Jalen Brown. He was in college for a year and he's this very raw athlete that we think has a chance to be special. And people were like, screw that. We don't care where we want. We want to be good now. And they booed and, uh, your feelings must have been hurt, right? Cause you brought the, you brought the city of title in 2008.

I definitely was. I didn't like getting booed. I didn't get furious. I'm just like, wow, that was a new experience and I'm going to try to get some strength from it. And I'm going to hope like hell that Jalen Brown can play basketball and he's doing great. So it's all seems like it's working out fine. I knew he was going to be special last summer when he volunteered. First of all, he was shooting like right after the season end. He was doing like two a days, like the day after. But then when he,

when he forced everyone to bring him to the summer league a year out, it'd been, no, no, you don't have to go. And he's like, no, I'm going, I want to go. And that's when I was like, all right, this kid understands. This kid gets it. He's an amazing person. He's got so much strength and so much... He's just flat out brilliant.

Take one second talking to him and he's brilliant. he's somebody I'm very glad... And he just adds so much to our character of the team and our attributes on the team he's just an amazing amazing I guess I can't say kid he's pretty young

but young man I can't wait to get him on a podcast hey I know you have to go but quickly you told me that those game two and game three Philly wins were among like the ten best wins since you've owned the team. Yeah, for sure. What was it that made it special? We're down 22 to Philly. We go back to 2012 or something with Philly. We had a very tough seven game series, as I recall. And

it just has never stopped, um, with them. And, uh, and they're, you know, I know the owners, obviously they're great people, et I know the owners, obviously they're great people, et cetera, et cetera, but it's just a lot of passion. It's just like we have up in Boston. They just burn to win down there. And, um, and we were in their way, you know, and we're, you know, Vegas and everybody else thinks we're huge underdogs in the series. And we, uh, we're down 22 points in the second game. And, uh, being in London this year, and we're down 22 points to them. And we came back and won the London game in January. So I thought 22 was a perfectly fine number for me.

And we did come back. And then the confetti game was just hysterical. I mean, I literally turned to the team president of the Sixers and said, really, confetti for overtime? And he said, Scott O'Neill, he's a great guy. He said, I know I'm in big trouble. I'm going to get fined by the NBA. And I said, well, what do you do if you win? And he goes, maybe throw a t-shirt. He just, we were laughing about it, but then I had my whole family down there and kids. And you know, we, we won the overtime, obviously. And it was just a sweet feeling to win on hostile ground. Winning on the road is

a great feeling. You know, one thing you don't get credit for, you created the owner sitting underneath the basket move. I think you're like the pioneer of that. I'd never seen that before. It's a great place to sit. Yeah. I mean, the action's right in front of you and you can see if the three-pointer or the foul shot,

but if three-pointer is going in or not at the end of the game, you can see it. You can see it at both ends of the court. You can tell the arc and you can tell the direction and you, you know, before anybody else, except the guy who shot it, uh, whether or not it's going in. So you have like ESP, it's an, it's a great place. And you have Danny down there too, that you can jump out and tackle. If he's going to go on the court target with the ref, you can, you're close enough to, you can get them. It's a lot of fun along our baseline. We have a great time. Anything in store for LeBron this series? I don't know if you know this, but he's

really good at basketball. Yeah, I do know that. I'm aware he's coming on Sunday. I'm going to start worrying about him about noon on Sunday. Until then, I'm going to be just fine doing other stuff. All right. Will you come back on and talk about, I have a whole bunch of how the NBA has changed over the last 15 years as a business questions. That is a whole different podcast that we should do. Let's see how this podcast is received. And if anybody wants to hear my voice again, because it may be, it may, it may bomb in which case. No, it's not going to bomb. First of all, you did great. But second, the, the NBA as a business and how it's transformed since you bought the Celtics and all the different, the RSN, all that's the streaming, all that stuff is really interesting. And you have some good thoughts on that too. Congratulations.

Thanks. Nice talking to you. Wish everyone in Boston luck for me. Nice talking to you too. Okay. See you. Bye-bye. All right.

Thanks again to Wick. Thanks again to House. Thanks to the Boston Celtics for See you. Bye-bye. All right. Thanks again to Wick. Thanks again to House. Thanks to the Boston Celtics for taking me to a round three. Thanks to ZipRecruiter, our presenting sponsor. Go to ZipRecruiter.com to check them out. Thanks to State Farm. Remember, at State Farm, you can get an agent that gets you. And thanks to Unshuffle, The Ringer's new music podcast, hosted by Michael Peters, launches next week. Subscribe now. And by the way, if you love the Recapables podcast,

Atlanta, our final one went up today, Atlanta season finale. One of my favorite shows, the Recapables, Atlanta. If you want to share it with people that love the show like you do. We still have the Billions podcast on there and we still have the Rewatchables Westworld as well. It's called Westworld, the Rewatchables actually. So all that stuff's coming up and then some good BS

podcasts next week. I remember I said that we were going to have Ralph Macchio and Billy Zabcon today, but that got postponed. Hopefully we're doing it next week, but I still want to do it. I really liked that series. I want to talk about it.

So hopefully those guys will come on. Enjoy the weekend. Go Celtics. See you on Monday. I don't have a few years with him on the wayside on the first I never said

I don't have a few years