The Bill Simmons Podcast - LeBron’s Stumble, Highest NBA Contender Ceilings, and the Raiders/Rams Body Switch With Kevin O’Connor and Mallory Rubin | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: October 16, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons briefly talks about LeBron‘s reaction to Daryl Morey’s comment about Hong Kong (3:10). Then Bill is joined by Kevin O’Connor to discuss some title contenders for the 2019-20 NBA season (9:55). Finally Bill sits down with Mallory Rubin for Mallory’s Most Intriguing, in which she shares her top five story lines of the week including wrongfully doubting the Raiders and Russell Wilson displaying MVP behavior (47:15). They wrap up by discussing the season 2 finale of HBO's 'Succession' (1:26:35). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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slash BS. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, Dolce & Gabbana's new men's fragrance, K, by Dolce & Gabbana captures the essence of a man in his element. Just today, nephew Kyle and I were driving around LA. Just the car smelled better. You had Kay on. Just was nice, pleasant smell in the car.

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Don't forget about the Ryan Rosillo show, where on Friday, we'll be running part two of the annual NBA Overrunners pod because he's doing it this year with me and Joe House. Part one will run on Thursday on this podcast. We're doing the West. Part two will run on Rosillo's podcast on Friday. It will be the East.

It will be three plus hours of NBA awesomeness. So get ready for that. Don't forget to go to the ringer.com if you want to read all of our NBA previewesomeness. So get ready for that. Don't forget to go to TheRinger.com if you want to read all of our NBA preview stuff as well. We had some really good pieces in there. Kevin O'Connor is coming up in a second. He went to Dallas and wrote about Luka Doncic and Chris Tapp's Porzingis.

Brian Curtis did a big piece today about how LA has now become the focal point, not just of basketball, but of basketball media. And we have a lot of stuff like that. So go check that out. Check out theringer.com. Coming up, I'm going to talk about LeBron and Chan a little bit at the top. Kevin O'Connor is going to come in to give a little brief preview of the season.

Then Mallory Rubin's doing Mallory's Most Intriguing, where we're going to talk about football and baseball and the season finale of Succession, which I have now watched three times. So that is all coming up. First, our friends from ProJet. All right, we have KFC coming in one second. I want to talk quickly about this LeBron slash China slash Daryl Moore thing because this has officially turned into the weirdest sports story of the decade. We're in a situation, in Hong Kong today, they were burning LeBron jerseys while chanting praises for Daryl Morey, which in my opinion, makes this the weirdest sports story of the decade. That is just bizarre. If you had explained

that to me six years ago, I would have thought you were on drugs. This story was starting to die down at least a little bit. I don't think the economic ramifications and all the little battles behind, all right, the NBA players and the owners and even Adam Silver are going to just be really careful with this. That's just where we are with this story. And then LeBron gave this little impromptu press conference before the preseason game last night and was just kind of rambling. And what came out of his mouth for the next minute made it seem like he was supporting China against Hong Kong. And then it's like, if you read it carefully, it's like, no, actually, that's not what he meant. And you could perceive he was actually talking about the situation for the NBA people and the Lakers in China. He wasn't talking about the China-Hong Kong conflict. He had quotes later where he's basically like,

that's, you know, I don't want to talk about that. I don't have enough information at my disposal about that whole situation. Really what was going on yesterday was he was mad at Daryl Morey because Daryl Morey started an absolute shitstorm for the league last week with his tweet. Whether you agreed with it or not,

I am personally on the side of freedom of speech. But he started a shitstorm. And a shitstorm that, man, I would love to know if he would do it again, whether all the things that came out of this was actually worth it. And it might have been. And I haven't talked to him about it. He might say this was worth it because you think the amount of people just in America that learned so much more about this China-Hong Kong story. And in a weird way, it felt like they had to educate themselves about it because they didn't know enough about it. Maybe that was worth it to him

and maybe that was just worth it in general. I think LeBron probably felt like, why? Why would you do this one tweet, you caused this huge shit storm. And on top of it, you had the NBA there and the Lakers and all these people. And we actually felt unsafe the week we were there. You knew we were going to be there.

Why would you do this? I think that's what he was trying to say. My question is, why didn't he just say that? If that was what was driving you to even bring it up in the first place, there's an easy way to say it. And this is somebody who has a media strategist, Adam Mendelsohn, and he could have said to him, hey, Adam, I want to bring this up. How should I bring it up? I think the way to bring it up just would have been like, yeah, obviously I'm for freedom of speech. Just look at all the stuff I've said and done over the years.

But in this case, I don't know why that tweet had to happen right as the whole league was going there and my family was worried and I was worried about my own safety and blah, blah, blah. Maybe he doesn't want to say that either. So then instead you give kind of this murky, I didn't really understand the point of it. And it was perceived as, oh, he actually had a problem with the actual tweet, which then he had to go back and do two tweets clarifying what he was saying. So to recap, he had a problem with Daryl's tweet being misinformed and not properly educated, but said this point so

badly that he then had to do two tweets about it to clarify what he said. So this was just one of the dumbest situations we've had in recent NBA history. And as many people pointed out, LeBron, one of his big stances is, don't tell me to shut up and dribble. I'm more than that. It did seem hypocritical for him to then take it personally that Daryl Morey decided to basically not shut up and GM. This story is weird. It continues to get weirder. I think one of the fascinating things about this story is just how it plays out with the business of the NBA and how much money is at stake, which you've heard a million people talk about, but how the NBA has to handle this so that they can keep the business, which they are one of hundreds of companies that are taking China's money while kind of looking the other way and being like, I'm going to take your money, but I'm not going to judge you.

But also I'm going to look this way. There's so much money at stake for them and for ESPN that they're trying to figure out a way to keep that money while also not defending China. And it's just this weird dance. And this is where we are when everybody is looking for ways to expand how much revenue they're making. And, you know,

do you look at a place like China? It's like, there's a lot of people that love basketball there and there's a lot of money. How do we get some? And unfortunately, a situation like this, which David Stern predicted

years and years and years ago, this is what happens. I have no idea when this is going to end. I don't know how it plays out. But I was surprised to see LeBron, who is one of the most publicly savvy athletes I think we've ever had, especially the last few years, just play something wrong and do something without really putting a lot of thought into it. I think that was for him, the legacy of this week is he kind of barged forward and said some stuff. And then I was like, oh shit. Well, I didn't mean it that way. Here are my two tweets clarifying what I meant. And it's like, he doesn't usually get in situations like that. So we'll see how this goes. I don't think this is a story that's going to go away.

And it's certainly a story that has made the NBA season a lot less fun as we get closer and closer to it. But we're going to bring Kevin O'Connor right now. All right, Kevin O'Connor is here. He's back on the West Coast. Haven't talked to him on a pod in a while. I'm excited to be back, Bill. It's been a couple months.

You got the mismatch with Chris Vernon. We moved that to twice a week this year on the Ringer NBA show. It's been fun. More time. I don't know if it's going to be good for your marriage or maybe blow it apart. So far, after one week, we still really like each other. We haven't had any blow-up arguments yet. The spark is still there.

Then again, it's only preseason now, right? So you just showed me this Excel sheet. Yeah. Now that we're close, and all of a sudden we're a week away from the season, I think all the China stuff really the last week kind of deflected the excitement of, oh, the season's coming. This is going to be really fun. And now just starting to think about all these games we're going to have in LA.

Not just the regular season. If 82 regular season games, I would say 68 of them would be super watchable. And then not to mention all the playoff games. This is going to be really cool. This has not happened since I lived here where you had two contenders at the same time in LA. I mean, LA has become the basketball capital of the universe. Yes.

And I think, you mentioned the Excel sheet. It's like you look at up and down the list of a Clippers-Lakers combined schedule at Staples Center. I mean, it is just hit after hit every night. And I think that's reflective of the league as a whole this year. In terms of my excitement, I mean, the China stuff that has happened, it's disappointing for many reasons. But you can't let that diminish your excitement for this coming season as a fan, where at

least as long as I can remember, you're a much bigger basketball historian than I am. Yeah. And I can't remember a time recently where there's been this much parity in terms of teams that you don't know that are going to make the playoffs, but also the teams that actually have a shot at making it to the finals. Usually every year there's at least one team, sometimes two, that you're like, they're going to make it.

It's inevitable. But this year, there's an argument to be made sometimes two, that you're like, they're going to make it. It's inevitable. But this year, there's an argument to be made for a lot of teams that actually have a shot. I don't remember though. So the Clippers are the quote unquote favorite right now and they're plus 450. And I don't really remember. You'd probably have to go back at some point last decade

when there wasn't a favorite. The Clippers are the favorite, but they're not. If you're getting nine to two odds on somebody, that's basically how the NFL works, where the Patriots, our beloved Patriots, every year, four to one, five to one, six to one, seven to one, but there's no favorite.

We had four straight years of Golden State was like minus 200, minus 300, or whatever. And even then, I think with the Clippers, you look at them this regular season, they're going to load manage Kawhi Paul George I've still heard he can miss up to six weeks to start the season so they're going to there's going to be a point where you

have Stephen A on TV saying we overrated the Clippers there's going to be that point where that discussion happens because I don't think they're going to be that 60 win regular season team that juggernaut going into the postseason so they're going to be a stud team in the postseason, assuming good health.

They're also a buyout destination January, February, March. Yeah, and maybe two other people that we're not even thinking of yet. I think as we see the buyout market shake out, which has become so influential year after year after year,

chances when the title matters, the city matters. How many of those buyout guys really swing odds significantly, though? I mean, they do make a difference, but... Well, it's like basically what happened last year, right? Like Enos Cantor in Portland,

that was a significant add, and he's not a significant player, you know, but they were one guy short, and then they had an injury ad and he's not a significant player you know but they were one guy short and then they had an injury and he was somebody that was able to play for them so we've seen it sure it's usually a role guy though and you mentioned Portland though even them they're one of those teams and that kind of

on the brink if you're putting teams into a tier they're they're in the on the brink conversation to actually have a shot here if Hassan Whiteside goes back to becoming prime Hasan Whiteside before he got paid, and if Yusuf Nurkic gets back, suddenly they become a more interesting overall team with their amount of depth, never mind Damian Lillard and CJ McCollum.

They're one of my high-ceiling, low-basement teams. A team that could miss the playoffs. I'm trending more toward thinking it's going to work out less than more. We've all underestimated this Portland team before. I'm just not a Whiteside guy. I thought he was borderline untradeable the last 18 months. It's perfect for them, I guess, because you can throw him in. You really want Nurkic to come back. That's your meal ticket. He's an expiring contract. Portland fans, they're one of the fan bases that remember every slight,

every person that picked against them, every person who said they weren't going to be good. But at some point, one of these West teams has to drop out. And right now we have the two LA teams. We have Denver, we have Utah, we have Portland, we have Houston. That's six. You didn't say Golden State?

That's one on the bubble for you? I just don't think we see Klay this year. I'm just stunned and mystified. I think he does not play a game this year. Why is that? Because everything that has been said publicly, at least until after All-Star break, everything that I've heard is that maybe March?

So in other words, is your perspective with Golden State that they just are on the bubble the whole regular season and then when it comes to that point, it's like, eh, maybe better off

just waiting a whole year instead of sneaking in as a 6-7-8 seed. Because I think Clay will be ready physically, but it's a matter of the choice

to bring him back or not. Why do you think that though? Out of curiosity. Just the timelines of history of getting back from ACLs. But he got that though? Out of curiosity. Just the timelines of history of getting back from ACLs. But he got hurt at the end of June.

Even if he comes back, let's say, wow, what an amazing recovery. He comes back with a week to go in the season, which would be like April 10th. That's still not even 10 months. And we've seen it happen in football. We saw it happen. I remember Adrian Peterson was a big one, but I just think basketball is a completely different sport for the pounding and the pivoting and the moving.

And if they're like 43 and 36 and they're on the bubble as like an eight seed or a seven seed or whatever, and it's like, yeah, let's bring Klay back. He's 80%. I don't think they do it. You don't do it if he's 80 but if he is physically 100 what are the other examples of of somebody coming back in 10 months i mean

everybody's different you like you mentioned football another guy that comes to mind is julian edelman he came back in a rather wes welker came back in a short amount of time he did there's guys in different sports you can look at and with clay thompson he doesn't have a game necessarily where he's moving laterally as much. I think with his on him on, with him on the offensive end of the floor, it's very much spotting up, coming off screens,

straight line drives. It's, I think it would affect him more in the defensive end of the floor, but if he's 100% and you're golden state and you have a shot at the postseason, you can sneak in there. And I think the D'Angelo Russell acquisition

this off season is perhaps one of the more underrated and overlooked ads of the offseason. I'm with you. You look at D'Angelo this summer, after the progress he made with Brooklyn as just an all-around passer, all-around playmaker from what he was at Ohio State, which was very, very good making just laser pinpoint passes, that has finally manifested for him

in Brooklyn's pick-and-roll heavy offense. But now, with Golden State, Steve Kerr, a bit more ball movement, I think maybe we're going to start to see what was missing since Ohio State, which is more of the off-ball stuff. He's a good cutter, a smart player, a guy who can run off screens for you.

So I think we're going to see, over the course of the season, that well-rounded D'Angelo Russell really manifests with the warriors then you have steph then you have dream on green then maybe if clay can go back maybe gold state isn't good enough over the course of the year but they have they still if i'm i have like i'm coming out with like a power rankings before the season i think i have gold state nine and then maybe that's a bit too optimistic, but I still look at their collection of talent.

And the other thing with them is it's the first time in, what, five years that they're able to actually play some young guys and see them develop over the course of the year. I think with Golden State, you know, it sucks you lost KD and it sucks Klay's out, but there's still a lot to be excited about for their chances this season, never mind in the future. Let's all collectively put a moratorium on the whole. And you know, nobody's talking about how much they're going to miss Andre Iguodala. We all know he's really valuable. They're going to miss him. At least he'll be a Hall of Famer. I think I'm going even bigger.

They lose KD, they lose Iguodala, and they lose Klay. Their perimeter defense is gone. It's gone. So I know offensively it looks fine, but I think defensively they're going to be atrocious. I think they're going to be like a 1980s Denver Nuggets type team where it's like 138 to 135. People are going to be having their career years against them.

Who is going to shut down the red hot Bradley Beal on a January night? They don't have one guy on the roster who can do that. That's fair. That's very fair. I still think they're just going to score enough that they're going to win a heck of a lot of games. Here's my other thing. I don't

I just don't think they have their urgency for this year. I don't think they're thinking about it as a title season. I think if anything think they have the urgency for this year. I don't think they're thinking about it as a title season. I think, if anything, they're thinking like, get our guys, let's get through this season. We can regroup. We just went through the most intense five-year run probably any basketball team has ever had.

And let's look for 2020-21. We'll have some cap space. We'll get under that hard cap and all that shit, and we'll have a foundation for something. I just don't see them being like, oh, man. Man, we have a chance to. You don't see the underdog mentality developing for the maybe the course of the year?

Everybody doubts us. Could that come over the course of the year? I think it's going to be there for Curry. Okay. And it's just there for Draymond every year. Except when he needs to lose 25 pounds. Right, right. Well, putting on the weight.

He got paid at least, though, finally. Yeah. But the thing with Clay, though, I think he would have to be so far ahead of schedule. To me, it doesn't make sense unless it's mid-March. And it's like, holy shit, this guy just set the record. And we have a month to get him in shape for the playoffs, because the playoffs are really

hard minutes. It's not like you just throw some dude out there with a knee brace who's like, oh man, I hope I'm alright. You can't do that in a round one. Especially if they'll be playing against Denver or the Lakers or the Clippers, whoever. I don't think we see him this year. I really don't.

I would not be stunned. But if he's coming back post-All-Star break and he's 100%, that would not be shocking either because I think it's all about the health of him, obviously. You can't bring him back at 80%, as you said. You wouldn't do that. But if he's 100%, you absolutely bring him back. Tough one for Clay because he loses.

You know, he was china he was like their guy now that's awkward now he's got the knee brace um that's awkward i uh i think with the d'angelo russell thing i keep hearing and then how is he gonna replace clay now it's curry and dn it sounds weird because he's eight inches shorter. I feel like he's more of the KD replacement because he's more of a one-on-one guy. That was what made, KD brought that to their offense that they didn't have before. This guy who just, anytime things broke down,

he could beat somebody one-on-one, create his own shot, stuff like that. That's what DeAngelo is really good at. 25 feet from the basket, his little weird heads he moves, and then all of a sudden he's pulling up from 25. But you could dump on the ball and kind of move out of the way. I don't think

he's a catch-and-shoot guy like Clay was. I think he's a bit of a hybrid. I wouldn't say he's a KD replacement. I don't think you can replace that. Well, you know what I mean, though. At least you can dump the ball to him and call his play and kind of spread the floor for him and he can create a shot. Yeah, I think with D'Angelo, I mean, he can do that.

But with him, I mean, what separates, you know, historically the all-time great players from the great players and the great players from the good players, it's the ability to get to the basket, finish at the basket, and then draw fouls and get to the free throw line. And D'Angelo Russell this past season posted one of the all-time worst free throw rates ever for a high volume shot attempt player. So with him, maybe that's something that develops over time for him, but it wasn't there in high school, wasn't there in college, and it hasn't been there in the NBA. So he's good and he can

do that, but he's not yet at that great level because of his inability to get to the basket and draw falls. I would say he's multiple levels below KD. I think KD is probably the best. That's a cold take there. Yeah. I think KD might be the best offensive player we've ever had for that specific role

but I also think every team kind of needs a guy like that. I'm not sure Curry is necessarily that guy he's a coming up the court he can create his shot we're going to see it this year setting off the pick stuff like that but you can still kind of contain him a little bit we're going to see it this year

though so you like him 5-1 MVP I mean like it depends on how good Golden State is just based off voter history Golden State has to be good for him to get votes but with kari there's no doubt he's going to put the numbers up if you look at what he did the past three years without clay or katie on the floor it's it's hardened-esque in terms of his his efficiency level as a scorer and his volume so the opportunity is going to at least be there for him to put up big numbers because

they're going to need it from him. And I think, at least statistically, we're going to see a 15, 16-esque season from Steph, whether it's MVP or not, I don't know. Well, it's his first no KD season in four years. And as you mentioned, he's going to also have that chip on his shoulder. And I think the stuff teams do to him in the playoffs, it's a little different than regular season when nobody's playing that hard. Yeah, and everybody has said,

oh, he's going to get double lawyer. No, he's not. No, he's not. And it's a different team every game. Of course. Post-season, same team, two straight weeks. I would be curious, and this is something I'm trying to figure out

for the article that I'm writing that I'll include them next week, but I would love to see the numbers with him getting double teamed with KD and Klay off the floor the past three years, though. Like, I do wonder if teams did double more statistically compared to when those guys

were on the floor. Because that would impact his numbers, you know? But I think at least the raw numbers when you're looking at the Harden-esque levels that he had, it would at least suggest that, no, he was not receiving significantly more defensive attention. Just quickly on how good Curry is.

So the last time he didn't have KD, now unfortunately he doesn't have Klay either, so this is tough, but he made 402 threes that year. He's the only person who's ever made 400 threes in a season. He averaged 30 a game. He was one of the only living members of the 50-45-90 club for splits. 31.5 PER. One of only 12 guys since 1990 who averaged 30 a game.

And his team won 73 wins. Steph Curry, if we get that guy again then I'm like alright maybe they could win 50 games with no defense maybe Clay does get back in time where is he on your all time rankings right now oh he's he's in the top 25 now I think that 7 year run he just had is

almost unparalleled what needs to happen this year for him to move into say in your eyes, the top 12 to 15? I don't think anything could happen this year. No, okay. I mean, if you want a

third MVP, that would be... That's what I mean. Is there like a third MVP and a deep playoff run and putting up just ludicrous numbers again? Because like,

what we have right now is an all-time legend right now. And like Steph Curry is not a guy to take for granted with, with the way he's innovated, the way he's performed at the highest levels, still in his prime with a chance to do a lot more special things over the course of his career.

This is a Larry Bird potential esque all time guy in terms of all that, the innovation, the impact that sustained winning is what we have right now. It's funny. If they win in 2016, he's probably already in the top 15 because now you have back-to-back.

And also that would have been, I think, one of the three greatest seasons anyone's ever had where you win 73 games regular season, you win the title, you put up insane stats, you're the best guy on the best team of all time. And now it's like, all right, well, you can't have the top 12, 13, 14 conversation without this guy. And it's weird how that, that so fluky,

like Draymond getting thrown out late. And you remember like that game four, where it was really like, all right, Cleveland's got to come with everything they have in this game. If this goes back to Golden State, the series is over. And Golden State handled their business

and really beat them in Cleveland. And Cleveland threw everything at them and they still beat them. But then Draymond happens, they lose game five. And then of course, it's a big what if. In game seven, I believe,

Steph did say one of his only regrets is that pass that he made on the turnover. Have you watched, I watched that fourth quarter this summer. That is an ugly last 12 minutes.

I mean, it's like a rock fight. LeBron hits two threes. Other than that, it's just bad shots both ways. LeBron has that insane block.

Kyrie hits one three. How about when LeBron had like the almost huge dunk and he was down for like six minutes? Oh, yeah. Right? has that insane block. Kyrie hits one three. How about when LeBron had like the almost huge dunk and he was down for like six minutes. Oh yeah. Right? I mean it's like when you watch it back and it cuts that out it sort of

makes the it changes the pace of the game but watching it live he's down. I don't know how long he was actually down but it felt like like five or six minutes. Also the guys that are out there in crunch time. Azili's out there at one point. Richard Jefferson's out there basically the whole time. Pretty nuts. Let's take a break and we'll talk about some sleepers. Hey, a lot of the brands talk about making the best basics,

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They sent me a couple of things. I've already worn one of the sweatshirts they sent twice. Very, very comfortable. Thick, not like that flimsy. I don't like how everything got flimsy in this decade. A little bit of substance to them, which I appreciated. Get free shipping on your first uniform order at everlane.com slash BS. Free shipping on the most comfortable basics you'll ever wear. Only at everlane.com slash BS. All right. Let's do some speed questions because I have a lot of stuff to hit. I know you cover a lot of this stuff on The Mismatch,

but we only have two possible contenders in the East, right? Philly, Milwaukee. That's all I put. If you had to bet on a third contender to emerge, who would you bet on? I think you need a team that has assets. A team that would be willing to make a ballsy move for like a Beal if you were to become available.

It has to be probably Indiana or Boston. One of those two. I think Boston has more assets to deal. They could always dangle Jalen Brown, restricted free agent next summer, young player, high upside. They have picks as well. I think Boston, I would give the edge, though you could also say Indiana has a bonus,

but I don't think he has the value that Jalen Brown would. I was on Sal's pod. I don't know when it's running, but I was saying how just for finals value, I don't think the Celts are going to win the title, but they're 25 to 1. And what's interesting is they do have the assets to add one more major guy. And they might even be able to do it without Jalen Brown being involved. But they have three first-round picks on the roster. They also have that Memphis pick.

They have next year's pick. They can make moves. I think them and Denver are the two to watch. Are you back on the Tatum train? I like everything I've read and heard. I also thought he was really good in the World Championships before he got hurt. I liked his two-way game.

I was disappointed when you left the bandwagon last year, Bill. I didn't leave the bandwagon. You sold a little bit of stock. Is that fair to say? No. No. You sold a little bit. A couple shares.

I blamed outside influences. Kyrie Irving, Kobe Bryant. The Kobe stuff was so great. I just felt like he was young and impressionable and it was, you know, it happens. Yeah. But the thing is that I sold a little stock. Here's what worried me is that it was just like he wasn't going to the free throw line.

And at some point, if he's not going to do that, then he's just not the same guy. It's like we talked about in regards to D'Angelo Russell. And that was the drawback with Tatum. And I mean, we'll see how it manifests for him over the season, but I think in preseason and the World Championships, he's at least showed more of a willingness to get to the basket.

And that's encouraging for him and Boston. I thought what made him special as a rookie was he had an outside shot, obviously, but his ability to finish with either hand in traffic and to finish off balance and just do stuff bouncing off dudes. I was like, this is the guy's meal ticket. And for him to just throw that away last year, I was like, this is the guy's meal ticket. And for him to just throw that away last year, I'll never understand that. I mean, I think another thing about Tatum,

I think he's one of the two most underrated defenders in the league, him and Aaron Gordon, I think are more of the overlooked, super versatile defenders that can do a lot for you on the defensive end in terms of multi-positional defense, in terms of off-ball awareness. Both those guys are really, really good. And that's one of the areas with Tatum that I think when it comes to assessing him

gets a bit underrated because defense is a big part of the equation, especially at the wing position with the amount of stars that you have to defend. And he's really, really good in that department. Well, the other thing, he got taller. What did he measure at? I feel like he's 6'10". I forget. I read it somewhere. I think he measured like 6'8 and 3 quarters without shoes, feel like he's 6'10". I think he measured, I forget, I read it somewhere. I think he measured like 6'8 and 3 quarters

without shoes, which would make him 6'10". Because in the World Championships team, they were playing him at the five a little bit and he kind of had the size to carry it. I was surprised, but I think, I think Stevens is going to have a great time this season.

I think he's going to use a lot of weird lineups. I think we will absolutely see small ball lineups with Tatum at the five and stuff like that. I think the team, from a demeanor chemistry standpoint, is going to be completely different. I have my eye on them. It's funny, Indiana,

I think there's a lot of red flags. We have no idea when we're seeing Oladipo again. Yeah. And I've heard mixed reports on when he's coming back and whether he's happy with the training staff and all this stuff. Interesting. I think him and Paul George and Clay,

we did this with Hayward. We were like, oh, Hayward, when he broke his leg, oh, I said it on this podcast. Maybe he'll be back in April. It was an 18-month injury. That's fair. It's always longer than you think it's going to be. Oladipo's injury is more major, too.

And unique. Yeah, very unusual injury that he had. Pretty scary, actually. So you have that, and then you have Brogdon, who's had his share of weird injuries, too. And that's a team. That's another high ceiling, low basement team. One of the reasons Brogdon fell in the draft was his foot.

I mean, it's one of the big red flags he's had in his career and that has not you know i think the way it was described to me at the time is that his foot was a time-ticking bomb because of the the surgery he had as a freshman at virginia and that foot has not gotten hurt yet but you know over time it could so if i gave you chic, Atlanta, Orlando, what would be the least surprising for you to get to like 44 and 38? Orlando. Not even a question. Not even a question. Could Chicago have it in them? Why do I like Chicago? Why do you?

Is it Zach Levine just putting up maybe 27 points per game? There's some sort of vibe from that team that I'm, I don't know. I can't share. I really want to shake it before the over-under pod. How'd they go from just being totally ass to being like a pretty nice, young, appealing team? Like overnight.

Well, do we think Kobe White's going to be good this year? He looks pretty good in preseason. His rookie of the year odds were like 20-1. He's not going to win rookie of the year. How often do you think he'll play? He's going to play. You don't think he can play 35 minutes a game? I mean, he's going to play probably

25 plus. He's going to get minutes. You've always enjoyed Sadoransky. Yeah, I like Sadoransky. You've enjoyed Star of the Ringer video. I love Wendell Carter. Wendell Carter, Ringer star. And Lowry Markkinen. Lowry's very interesting to me, though, Bill,

because you look at their team. I was not super high on Lowry in his draft year because of his limitations as a defender, as a rebounder, and as a passer. But there's never been a doubt about his scoring ability at almost seven feet he can stroke threes off movement off screens he can attack off the dribble yeah and finish with you know both hands at the rim he's a real offensive talent but it's weird like as much as i also like the chicago team i wonder how many opportunities

are actually going to be there for him to score because you got Zach Levine, you got Kobe White, and then you also have Otto Porter, who this preseason, Boylan has really empowered him as a ball handler. He's running more pick and roll. He's taking the ball up the court more in transition.

So you have three guys in the pecking order above the guy that you essentially drafted to be one of your star offensive players. And like, that's not a bad problem to have but it's just weird because that was what you got Lowry for and I just wonder how much opportunity will actually be there for him to develop that but maybe he's like a 28 minutes a game guy maybe yeah we left out three guys they they had kind of a quietly good summer which which is crazy because- Thad Young, right? I forgot him. Thad Young.

Sadoransky. He was a little tasty last year. Gotta have Sadoransky. Sadoransky wasn't bad last year. You think like that Chris Dunn, they've had to watch him and Cameron Payne, all these crappy point guards play. I've always kind of enjoyed Luke Cornett. Luke Cornett. Luke Cornett. That's Cornett with the 44-win team.

I think they have a nine-man rotation. It's like, I don't, I look at it, I'm like, all right, so we've all agreed Orlando is going to make this leap and we all think Atlanta is going to be whatever. And I look at Chicago's team, they have multiple guys who could score. They have guys like Porter and Thad Young who have actually played in playoff games

and kind of understand what to do. I think Wendell Carter, I'm really excited to watch him. He got hurt last year, but that's a pretty good center. And if Kobe Wake gives them anything, that might be a pretty good team. I mean, I like Chicago.

I'm excited for them. I like Chicago. I'm excited for them. I like Chicago. I think if you're looking at those three teams, I would put them Orlando, Chicago, Atlanta in terms of likelihood to hit that 44 wins. Right. I would put them over Atlanta. But it's funny because Atlanta's over-under is 34.5,

and Chicago's is 32 and a half. And that actually went up. It was, I think, 31 and a half. And people have been betting it. Jim Boylan, 71 for coach of the year. Just throwing that out there. What? 70 to one.

It's a dumb bet. It could be a Jim Boylan. It could be Jim Boylan time. Nobody listening to this should make that bet. Don't do that. Look out for Jim Boylan. Don't do it. Could happen.

My one drawback with Atlanta this year is, well, first of all, they're young. And that goes without saying. They have a super young roster. But I really, really like Trae Young. He's already one of the more, you know, really just fascinating playmakers to watch with the creativity that he has as a passer but he he so often gets hyped as like this steph curry-esque player and he's not that he's a better passer than steph but he's not even in the same stratosphere as a shooter steph steph has never shot worse than 38.7 percent at any level from three but trey young has never shot better than 37.2%. He's just not

the same level of a three point shooter from deep range. So with Trey, you're going to have the ball in his hands so much because he is the orchestrator of that offense and he's really good as a passer, but the shooting is not there for me to really feel confident in him being the guy who's going to really just propel them forward the season. i think that needs to happen collectively from the team development over time with cam reddish getting better deandre hunter getting better and trey as well i just don't think he's a guy that's gonna make that push for them this season i had actually i'm i'm with you i they look good down the stretch last year partly because they were one of the few teams that was still playing pretty hard though the stretch last year, partly because they were one of the few teams that was still playing pretty hard down the stretch last year.

They're going to do that this year too. Yeah. Those guys buy in. I heard they pretty much all showed up to practice and scrimmage together weeks before training camp began. They're buying in. They feel like they're a year away from me. Philly versus Milwaukee.

Milwaukee's over-runner is 57 and a half wins Philly's overrunner is 54 and a half if I told you one of those two teams was going to go 64 and 18 who would you pick Philly that's how I feel too I think their ceiling's higher

I don't know if they'll get there I think with Philly they were one of the most switchable defenses in the league last season. And then they added Al Horford and they drafted Matisse Thibel and, you know, Joel Embiid is in much better shape. I think you look at their defense, they could have a dominant defense, no matter who's on the floor. Cause one of the issues last year was you take Embiid off and then you have amir johnson with his you know just dust ankles yeah on the court but now you have al horford who can start next to start next to mb but also can serve as the best backup five in basketball so you're going to have

a constantly elite level defense on the floor never mind just a really funky difficult offense to defend with their amount of size how do you defend a lineup where the smallest guy oftentimes will be Josh Richardson out on the court? They can play so many different styles. I like that they're weird. We just need more weird as we head toward this world where everybody just shoots threes and takes layups. I like that we have this one super weird contender.

We're going to get a lot of threes this year. If the preseason rate maintains, which is around 40% of shot attempts from three, if you look at this three-point rate this decade, every year preseason correlates really strongly with regular season. And this year looks like a pretty significant jump with how teams are shooting shots in preseason. We're going to get a lot of three-pointers.

I blame people like you for it. People like me? Why me, Bill? Internet writers writing about the value of the three. You, Zach Lowe, Kirk Goldsberry. You've caused this. The church of Daryl Morey. This is your apocalypse.

Yeah. No, I mean, so you must be on the side of KD today with the argument about Zach Levine saying, shoot your mid-range jumpers. Did you see that today? I did. Why is KD wading into people's mentions? What is he doing? KD has nothing better to do.

He's recovering from a ruptured Achilles. 13th best player of all time. KD knew what he wants. Come on, KD. Come on. I have a really important question for you. Okay. Thighball. Oh, I love him. You haven't even asked the question. Are we in the front seat of this bandwagon?

Yeah. Because I actually threw a hissy fit when the Celtics, it seemed like they were going to draft him, and then they traded down and gave him the fucking Eastern Conference rival. And then it was like, oh, actually, all right. It was cool that we got Carson Edwards out of the deal, but fuck, the preseason stuff with Thibom,

just like, oh my God. I mean- I mean, you knew this was going to happen. This guy was like a historically unbelievable defensive player in college. I mean, the steal and block numbers he put up in that zone defense, just remarkable.

One of the most impactful defensive players, not just in college basketball, his college history, period, the numbers he put up. Is it possible he's the best perimeter defender right now? Who's better than him? I mean, did you see my tweet last week

about correcting myself saying, Matisse Theibel is going to be an immediate high-impact defender this season for the Sixers? And then I'm like, well, correction, Matisse Theibel is immediately going to be one of the beasts, going to be one of the best defenders in basketball, period. Who has that title now?

I mean, Kawhi has the title, obviously, but I'm just talking regular season. I i think george last year george yeah who's hurt right now uh robert covington is a high level defender covington's good yeah i think you factor in the experience you get to go with a guy like that but thibault thibault might have the highest ceiling i mean he has everything you want as a defensive player i mean i I don't want to wax poetic too long about Matisse Stiebel here, but it's like he has the mindset, first of all, just to buy into his role. He has the length and the athleticism.

He has just the instinct and reaction time. He has the strength and the speed and the lateral quickness. I mean, he is the complete total package for a defensive player in today's league. So this is why I like Philly as like a high ceiling team. Defensively, they're better. They have lineups that they can...

JJ, God bless JJ, ringer employee of the year. Not an A-plus defender. They have lineups now because I thought Simmons had some really good defensive moments last year but they could throw out simmons richardson thibel and bead and horford unreal and that might be the best five-man defensive lineup in the in the league right did you mention josh richardson in

that yeah okay richardson i mean like again one of the better perimeter defenders in the league but you could also bet i mean and beads the advanced stuff with him is amazing too, but Embiid doesn't even necessarily have to be in a five-man lineup that could be destructive for them defensively. Just having Simmons, Richardson, and Thibault

switching on the perimeter and then Horford knowing what he's doing, I like the over for them. I think they're going to be really, really good. Well, they're going to be my finals pick in the East. I think that's where I'm leaning to.

I think with Milwaukee, as much as I still really like that team, I mean, how can you not when they have Giannis Antetokounmpo? But I think the loss of Malcolm Brogdon is a bit more significant than people think. You mentioned the versatile defense. He was also a very high-impact defender. The perimeter, being able to defend some bigger guards and smaller guards, never mind what he did on offense for you as a floor spacer,

as a secondary pick-and-roll guy. They're going to miss him a lot this year, especially if Eric Bledsoe continues his stinky playoff performance. We do not have seats in that bandwagon. You buying or selling the Miami Heat? I'm buying. I think we you know, we mentioned Boston and Indiana earlier.

If you're talking about that third best team in the East, it could be them. I should have mentioned them because they're still the most logical Chris Paul trade destination. Or Kyle Lowry trade destination too. If Toronto decides to press detonate on this roster, Lowry makes some sense too.

Do you like Tyler Harrow at rookie of the year, 25 to1? I mean, I think any bet but Zion would be... I know injuries can happen and all that, but it's... Look, Harrow maybe is not the worst bet in the world. All non-Zion bets are just... You're basically betting that he sprains his ankle or something. Exactly.

Yeah, you're just betting on an injury. All right, you have to go. This was fun. The mismatch, Tuesdays, Fridays. Yeah. And it Yeah, you're just betting on an injury. All right, you have to go. This was fun. The mismatch, Tuesdays, Fridays. Yeah. And it sounds like you're leaning toward Philly and we'll leave the other one blank so people can enjoy you in the ringer.com.

Let's leave the other one. I'm not even sure on the other one quite yet. All right. KOC, always a pleasure. Thank you, Bill. All right, before we get to Mallory, let's talk about Square. They make that little white credit card reader

that helps lots of businesses take payments. But here's what a lot of people don't know. They make so much more than just the white card reader. Say you're opening a restaurant. You're going to need registers to ring up orders. You're going to need to manage your tables. You're going to need to pay your employees. Maybe do a catering gig and you need an invoice. Square can help with all that, not just restaurants. Square can help you no matter what kind of business you've got I think every haircut I've gotten for the last three years guess how I paid

Square that easy I'm still waiting for Kyle to get Square when are you getting it just get it I'll get it can't they send it to you

I'm sure they can Jesus what's up Square can tip you after a particularly great podcast just be like hey get a beer on me I'll put it on Square

see all the ways Square can take your business from Square One to whatever's next at square.com slash go slash BS square.com

slash go slash BS. All right. Normally we do this on Thursday, but we have the big NBA over under podcast coming on Thursday. So Mallory is here on Tuesday.

Mallory Rubin, she says most intriguing. We're going to talk succession at the tail end of this. Oh! The season finale. Okay. Happened a couple days ago. Great. I've watched it now three times. Oh my goodness. Once with Kyle. Once with my wife. Once by my lonesome.

Accompanied by your favorite dog, Olivia. Love Olivia. Great animal. Who was hanging next to me just because I was eating pretzels. Baseball playoffs in full swing. It looks like we're headed toward Astros Nationals. It sure does. Nationals at this very moment appear to be,

it's the beginning of that game, but they're already up to nothing, appear to be on their way to a sweep. Incredible stuff. You could feel it coming from the moment Annabelle Sanchez almost pitched a no-hitter. It's like, all right, if this shit's going to happen, the Nationals are winning.

That was incredible. That was truly incredible. I'm happy for the Nats. I was looking up, Hanch and I, we were texting about his stats the last three years in Detroit, where he basically was giving up six runs a game for three years. I know because I had him on one of my fantasy teams every one of those years.

I was like, this is the year he finds it again. Throwing the lights out. This is why baseball is so crazy. It's the best, man. You just turn it on and all of a sudden everything's happening in a good way for three weeks. He can feel it. I thought the Yankees, we'll see how it goes, but I thought losing game two, it felt like one of those things like,

oh, they're going to be thinking about that game this winter. Yes. Because if you win that one. You never know. Is that going to come up in Mallory's Most Intriguing? I have an Astros item for us at number five today, if you want to get right into it. Let's do it.

Let's go. How much money is Garrett Cole earning himself right now? Because the 29-year-old is an impending free agent. And he is having one of the best postseason runs by a pitcher maybe ever. This is basically the Madison Bumgarner in 2014 kind of run. And it is absolutely mesmerizing to watch. It's mesmerizing. It's Nolan Ryan is back with better control.

That's how I feel when I watch him. It's interesting because Nolan Ryan was at one of these Astros games. Oh, yeah. He's always there, man. He's quietly like 70 years old now. He's watching his juggernaut now. Well, it feels like he just played, but then you realize, oh, when he just played, he was like 48 when he retired.

So, yeah, it makes sense that he's my dad's age. But yeah, it feels like this is our version of that. I mean, can I complain about baseball for a second? Sure. Are you going to complain about them de-juicing the ball, suppressing home runs, going back to the dead ball era? I'm not going to complain about that. What I'm going to complain about is-

Are you going to complain about Mike Trout? No. They show the Verlander stat and it's the inning, and nobody's had a ground out yet. And I'm like, all right, this is now stupid. What are we doing? So it's just like strikeouts, fly balls, and home runs, and that's just what the sport's going to become. We're really all good with this. This is what we want to be.

I mean, we're in the three true outcomes era of baseball. I know, but it really was banged home for me during the playoffs. Strikeouts and homers. Should we not have infielders? Why don't we have six outfielders? That'll make sense. That will happen. The evolution of

the shift as the shift continues to take over the game, it's not just going to be four infielders or repositioning your infielders or five infielders. Why not move everyone to the outfield at a certain point? And then the question is, as it always is in baseball, when anything in the game changes and any new trend emerges, it's when can the other side adjust? So if you start seeing stacked outfield defenses, is everyone who's trying to hit those home runs going to be smart enough to just lay down a bunt. Right. So I was kidding. You think this could actually happen for outfielders?

Yeah, why not? Jesus. Absolutely. Are you anti-shift? Yes. Oh, my God. I think it's horrible. This is like just I don't mean to offend anybody listening who feels this way.

I think all opinions about baseball and sports. Well, not all, but many are valid. However, anti-shift is just a real old guy take to me. Yeah, I'm old. Guess what? Old guy right here. I was making fun of our copy chief, Craig Gaines, in the office today

because he was once again loudly bemoaning the existence of the shift. And it's just like, well, you sound 75 when you talk about this. Great. And I believe in the purity of the game and the sanctity of the game and all the things that make baseball this kind of like religious experience for people who love it. But part of what actually makes baseball such a rewarding spectator experience is the nuance and the specificity and the ability to take the information that is available to you and then make precise decisions. Rewarding for who?

For everybody involved. Who is it rewarding for? Oh, that guy cranked a, oh, now there's the third infielder, stopped it. What's fun about this? Isn't it fun to say the defense, the team that is positioning those fielders is able to make the absolute most out of the information available to it to act on the intelligence that is out there? Like, okay, let's use an example.

You're in media, right? You're not like, just toss a blog up there. Just toss a blog up there. You don't text the blog Father Chris Ryan and say, just toss up 800 words. You're like, where's my angle? Where's my precision? I want that specificity that shows me that my people are the best. Why don't you want that in your baseball teams? Praising me was the right way to go. Thank you. Because you know that

always is going to win me over. I can see the twinkle in your eye. I was like, oh, cool. Am I making out better? I don't know. I guess the spectator experience of watching somebody crank a hit and then seeing some person randomly there after I've been watching baseball my whole life. And now people are not, people are in spots that they've never been. And I've been watching baseball since 1974 and I just can't get used to it. So I am an old guy. But part of what's interesting about not only sports,

but anything about life is evolution and change and the ability to adapt, right? No? No. It's the evolution of I hit the shit out of the ball, but there's some third infielder there. What's fun about that? So in basketball, are we going to make defenses where we just put two defenders in the corners to take away corner threes? And now there's more layups,

but at least we cut the corner threes down. It doesn't look like basketball anymore, but this is the evolution of basketball. Like, I feel like that's not that far off from the stupid shift thing. See, that sounds kind of cool to me. See, the nerds are ruining everything and you support the nerds.

I support a balance. I support harmony in this and all things. Thank God football, you can only go so far with kind of changing what we liked about it. Like nobody could be like, hey, I figured out 11 defensive backs. It's like, okay, we're just going to run the ball down your throat, you moron. Like football, we figured out the right balance where you can have ingenuity, but it doesn't actually change what I'm watching. Now, the safety part of it has changed, obviously.

Yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, there's something that feels ultimately familiar and unified across teams and across time, no matter, like if you're watching a team like, you know, the Rams, that's going to be like a heavy and 11 personnel, or you're watching the 49ers and their 21 personnel, you're going to be able to obviously,

if you're an astute football viewer, appreciate the distinctions between those offenses. But at the end of the day, it looks like an NFC West football game to you. I understand what you're saying. I guess I would just posit that the same is true for baseball. And at the end of the day, if you're watching pretty much any team's play, you're going to see a lot of strikeouts and you're going to see a lot of home runs. And then

something like the infield shift is just a part of what certain teams are able to do better than others. Do you like baseball more now or 15 years ago? I've always loved baseball. I mean, baseball is a- That's not an answer. It's a part of my DNA. You didn't answer my question. It's a part of my origin story as a sports fan. My dad sitting me down and talking about Memorial Stadium

and Earl Weaver and Oriole Magic and the power of the three-run homer. I liked baseball best in 2014 when the Orioles won the LA East. That was when I liked baseball best. I don't like- It's a fair question. I think it was better 15, 16 years ago.

The pitching change stuff. That Sunday night game, which just should have been like a legendary game. And it was just like a long playoff baseball game. And it's like, oh, CeCe's going to come in and pitch to. He's going to throw one pitch. But that. Okay. So I would argue that that is not a product of the infield shift

or Sabre metrics. That's just about them de-juicing the ball and not admitting that they're doing it. I'm talking more just like you talk about the evolution. Part of the evolution is people using their bullpen like maniacs. Part of it though also, also is your rooting allegiance and whether you're invested,

because when Eovaldi was out there shredding his arm forever for you and delaying run scoring for as long as he possibly could, you thought it was one of the best days of your life. Rooting interest. You act like I don't have

rooting interest in these playoffs. The Yankees are involved. No, the Yankees are involved. They want the Yankees to lose. I'm totally invested. Well, Garrett Cole want the Yankees to lose. I'm totally invested. Well, Garrett Cole beat the Yankees today. Great stuff. What happened with Donny Kwok, whose cousin plays for the Cardinals, but Donny Kwok's

a Nationals fan? Where do we land on this? Donny Kwok works for the ringer. I believe that Donny is rooting for Tommy's success above all. What a conundrum. But that's a tough one. Actually, let me, he posted a picture. Yeah, he posted a picture.

He's wearing a Cardinals hat. But his, was it his grandfather? Am I remembering this correctly? Was wearing a Nationals hat. Yeah, that's a tough one. I don't know. I think it's just an incredible thrill for Donnie to get to watch a family member participate

in the Major League playoffs. A rookie, too. It's incredible. Family versus your favorite team is a really tough one. Who would you root for if... Let's play out a thought experiment. Kyle texts you. Kyle's on the... He's like, I got the call from Tom Brady.

He needs me. Okay? Left guard. He needs me to play. I was going to say right guard, but if you want to go with left guard, that's fine. He needs me. Okay? Left guard. He needs me to play. I was going to say right guard, but if you want to go with left guard, that's fine. He needs me. Well, this isn't going to work as a thought experiment because you would root for the Patriots anyway. Let's say.

That sounds great. Can Kyle be a tight end in this scenario? Who can catch a pass more than four yards? Your son, Ben Simmons, grows up. Yeah. I'm always rooting for Ben Simmons over my team. He's like, Dad, I'm on the New York Giants. I'm on the New York football Giants.

I'd really have issues with that. And they unretired Eli Manning's number so that I could wear it. Will you support me in the Super Bowl against the Patriots? I liked your scenario of Kyle as the new tight end on the Patriots. I feel like he could get five catches this weekend. I would always go for family, I think. Okay. But that's a tough one.

Tell Brady's family to you in a way. But Donnie's a Washington fan, and this is easily the greatest moment in Nationals history the last two weeks. Oh, yeah. But they have to go through his family member to get there. Once they're in the World Series, though, then it's over. You know, Tommy Barrier eliminated. It's like an affair. his family member to get there. Once they're in the World Series, though, then it's over, you know? Tommy Barrier eliminated.

It's like an affair. It's like he's married to the Nats, but he gets like a little dalliance with the cards. Had some fun with the girlfriend. One-nighter, yeah. Now he's back with the wife. What's number four on your list? Number four. The shift sucks.

Number four. The shift is fine and Garrett Cole is an icon. Let's all cherish the chance to watch him in the World Series. Number four. The shift is fine and Garrett Cole is an icon. Let's all cherish the chance to watch him in the World Series. Number four. Can the Eagles or Cowboys actually assert themselves this weekend as the team? The team in the NFC East?

Looked for a while like this was going to be one of the can't really say best divisions in football because obviously before the Danny Dimes move, the Giants were a debacle and the Redskins were clearly going to be one of the worst teams in the league. But it looked like it was going to be one of the best races between the two contenders with the Cowboys and the Eagles. Both teams are now 3-3. Cowboys have obviously lost three in a row.

And we're heading into this Sunday showdown where even though clearly both teams have ample time to recover from whatever happens this weekend and this weekend doesn't actually determine anything, division game feels consequential. And both teams have a lot of how in trouble are they narrative circling around them. And holes. Oh, yeah.

Philly's got secondary. The secondary is a mess. I'm going to call Dallas's coaching a hole. Can I do that? Is that legal? So we're three weeks. We had three weeks of Kellen Moore as the new boy genius. And now we have three weeks of did Kellen Moore forget what play action is?

Yeah. The clip from this past Sunday. We talked last week about how one of the saddest things we'd seen was the shot of Kershaw in the dugout. Yeah. Let's add to the list. Jason Garrett standing there trying to give all of his players high fives and all of them just streaming past him. It was like a pebble in a brook and the water. It's just parting the water and it's going around each side of them,

except you have to put a little frowny face emoji on the pebble. And it was just so... Pathetic is cruel because I actually felt bad for him, but you're watching it and you're like, oh my God, this is kind of a pathetic moment for this franchise. And then Jerry Jones came out and defended him, right? As usual. They, on a radio spot, I think, asked him,

you know, what do you think about he's moving up the hot seat watch list and the odds? And Jerry said that basically you shouldn't place that bet, you know, unless you want to lose money, that they're not going to fire him during the season.

So he's in the last year of his contract. Maybe a change will come eventually, but it doesn't feel like it's going to come now. Should happen two years ago. I watched the Eagles' fikes. Yeah. They made Kirk Cousins look not only like a competent quarterback, but like an exceptional quarterback, which is

hard to do. Here's the thing, though. He actually hit the passes. And he's Kirk Cousins. He had some of those passes were available like in the Chicago game where they got shut out, where he did have guys open. He just missed them. And he actually hit three of the guys who were wide open.

If it was a normal Kirk Cousins day, he probably goes one for three and maybe Philly even steals the game. Wentz does have, I I've never seen a quarterback like him where you watch him for a quarter and you're like wow he looks awful he might end up with three fantasy points and then all of a sudden the switch goes off

and he's like doing Carson Wentz stuff he's the rarely seen streaky quarterback but in a game you know what I mean? no I think that's astute it's it just feels like something hasn't quite clicked for that team. And obviously, people talk about the secondary a lot.

But really, I think it's true everywhere. And they have so much, channel my inner Robert Mays voice here, roster talent. You know, they have so much talent on that team that it does feel like it'll all click together. But something like the running back situation where everybody was so high on Miles Sanders and it just seemed like he was going to emerge as one of the young stars in the league. And then we're, you know,

multiple weeks into the season. Jordan Howard is clearly the guy there. And that's just, even though he's running well and succeeding, that just feels like weird and wrong in some way. And that's no shade of Jordan Howard. It's just like, how is that kind of how this is clicking together?

Jeffrey, who I have on my fantasy team, is one of those guys that always seems like he's playing with a really bad injury that they're not telling you about. Yeah. He's like laboring. It's like, is this, is he hurt? Is he, does he have a herniated disc? What's going on? He never seems healthy.

In general for the, for the team, the health coming together, which is not generally how it works over the course of an NFL season, but if they can get Sean Jackson back from the abdominal injury, for example, then that helps solidify a little bit about the passing game. The thing with the secondary is it seemed like of all the teams that needed Jalen Ramsey, and I obviously would put the Baltimore Ravens high on that list, though. Got Marcus Peters today.

Congratulations. Thank you. I'm feeling great about it. He's only got torched 7,000 times in the last three weeks. I think that- He was abominable. Classic example of if you're only looking

at the highlights or the lowlights, you think he's had a bad year. But then if you want to go look at the PFF grades, you'll feel better. That's what I did today. PFF needs to stop drinking because that guy stinks. The Eagles needed Jalen Ramsey and they didn't get him because he went to the Rams today. That officially happened. So. Wait, what happened? Yeah. Jalen Ramsey got traded to the Rams. This happened like minutes ago.

What? Yeah. Holy shit. That's not number one? Is that your number one? Well, no, it just happened. I didn't have time to pivot. It literally just happened. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's- It's 542 right now, Pacific time. Let's see.

The terms that have surfaced so far- So it's at least a first round or maybe two? It's two. So Schefter reported- Oh, God. Two first round picks- Oh, my God. In 2020 and 2021 and a fourth round pick in 2021.

And then an ensuing report. And I'm just looking at this in our Slack right now. I haven't had time to research this. An ensuing report from another source is that apparently they have not agreed to an extension with him. So it's possible they gave up two first round picks for someone they're not going to an extension with him. So it's possible they gave up two first round picks for someone they're not going to be able to retain. Yeah, but in the NFL it seems like you have

more advantages with stuff like that. Maybe. It's fascinating to consider what's happened with Can we pivot from the Eagles Cowboys to the Rams? Let's do it, man. Hijack number four. I think the Rams have completely fucked up an awesome situation in the span of 14 months. I don't even think this is a real opinion.

The Gurley contract, they had to have known his knee was screwed up. They did it anyway. The Goff contract? Well, but then last year they went all in on winning a Super Bowl that year and obviously didn't. But that's defensible. Defensible. Anytime you have an actual path to a title, you have to go all in.

Defensible. Not defensible if you also know you're going to give Goff this giant contract and you're going to pay Gurley who might screw you over with the arthritis thing. Where you're basically like, when you're going all in, you're like, we're really all in. We might only be in for this year. The Goff contract was indefensible when it happened. It looks worse every week. Mm-hmm. And it's actually like with Dallas where they stared down Dak Prescott and didn't give it

to him. In my opinion, that contract's going to be there either way. Goff's taking that in week six, week nine, whatever you want to give it to him, he's taking it. I just don't know how he holds all that money in those tiny, tiny hands. Oh my God. That was mean. I'm sorry.

He does fumble a lot though. His tiny little fumble hands. Tiny hands. Tiny, small hands. Tiny hands. Tiny, small hands. If you go back to last August, 2018, and you said, which roster would you want? Coach, players, everything, cap space. Who would you pick? Rams would be the number two choice behind the New England Patriots and Tom fucking Brady and Bill Belichick. But the Rams would be two and now they wouldn't be, they would not be a top 12 salary roster,

all kinds of situations you want. I would not want Goff with that contract. That's a disaster. I agree with the Goff point. I think that what's interesting about that and how quickly things change is that so much of that perception that you and people would have held

at that point in time just a year ago was not, I i mean obviously a ton of it is about the players on the team you know aaron donald's arguably the best player in football regardless of position but that so much of that was the mcveigh halo effect and the capital outside of currency the capital in the game that you get from having an innovator like that running things and that changed more than anything else more than how goth is playing more than how you the capital in the game that you get from having an innovator like that running things. And that changed more than anything else, more than how Goff is playing, more than how you assess the Gurley contract.

That's the one that feels simultaneously the most kind of befuddling. And also probably and hopefully for the Rams, like the one that's the short, just a blip, like Sean McVay can coach. This is temporary. He has to now adjust to the way that the league has adjusted to him, right? And that will happen. There's no reason to think it won't. Kyle, Sean McVay was a great innovator until he met a man by the name

of William Belichick who pulled his pants down, spun him around a few times, put a red ball in his mouth, and sent him packing. And he hasn't been the same since. Bring out the gift! Extraordin same since. Bring out the gift! Extraordinarily vivid. Bring out the gift!

Oh my God. Yeah, Belichick's like, who's on my corner? Oh, this guy? I'm going to ruin his career. And he did. The thing for the Rams, it's not even about Belichick. You only have to worry about that in the Super Bowl. Now it's like, look at the 49ers in that division.

And the Seahawks. I mean, the West is fucking loaded. And obviously the Cardinals are not having a competitive season, but there's a lot there to be excited about with the Kingsbury Kyler regime. And so you're only losing ground right there right now. Only losing ground. Let's take a break and then we'll do the final three. Quick break to talk about Sonic Boom. Yeah. Our awesome narrative podcast about how the Sonics got stolen from Seattle, hosted by Jordan Ritter Kahn. We are a couple episodes in. We're starting to get to the really good stuff. We're starting to get to the stuff where there's actually real reporting in here that will, not that we wouldn't have had real reporting, but reporting that I just had not seen before or heard before that I think will change people's perception of how the Sonics actually got stolen

from Seattle. And by the way, they did. You can listen to it on Luminary. You can get your first two months of access to Luminary's premium content for free when you sign up at luminary.link slash Simmons. After that, it's only $7.99 per month. Luminary.link slash Simmons for two months of free access. Cancel anytime. Terms do apply. And since we're here, don't forget about the hottest take on Spotify. We're wrapping up our first month. People really seem to like this podcast. We've had some really, really good ones over the last couple of weeks. And you can just,

all you have to do is follow us on Spotify. It's free. And you can get all of the hottest takes that your heart desires. That's it. Back to Mallory Rubin. We're back. Did you see that Doug Peterson

guaranteed the victory for the Eagles and then immediately recanted? I loved that. So I watch everything that's happened with Doug Peterson guaranteed the victory for the Eagles and then immediately recanted? I loved that. I watch everything that's happened with Doug Peterson since he somehow beat the greatest, Bo Belichick. And you think like that field goal at the end of the first half,

the fake, it was a 39-yarder. Even if they get it, they still have to run. There's 15 seconds left in the half. You basically have to think you're scoring a touchdown on that play and if you watch the play, zero chance. It actually makes me madder that

we lost the Super Bowl to this guy. He's a jackass. What's happening? I think you have enough Super Bowls. I think you're fine. Number three. I kind of can't believe I'm saying this out loud, but this is a safe space. It's just you and me and Kyle. No one else. How seriously do we need to be taking the Raiders?

I think we have to just at least ask. There's seven possible playoff teams. They're one of the seven. That's the thing. The AFC is so weak. We used to say beneath the Patriots and Chiefs, and now we just unfortunately have to say beneath the Patriots. Game and athlete. The wild card race

is extremely bleak, and they're in it. So they're 3-2. Coming off a bye right now, heading into the Packers game. You're putting both the Colts and Texans in? Yeah. I think that they're in the wild card race basically with the B that they're in the

wildcard race basically with the Bills. Maybe in the, or the Colts. The Bills, the Colts, and the Raiders. Bills,

Colts, Texans, Raiders. Maybe the Browns if the Browns pick it up, right? No. You're out?

Completely out? I was making fun of Doug Peterson who's actually not a jackass who won a Super Bowl, but Freddie Kitchens really might be a jackass.

There's a lot going on there. I will say the Browns got jobbed on a lot of calls against the Seahawks. They did. I think Freddie Kitchens really might be a jackass. There's a lot going on there. I will say the Browns got jobbed on a lot of calls against the Seahawks. They did. I think Freddie Kitchens is a threat to somehow waste all three timeouts in the same play. I know it's never happened before. The Andy Reid. Yeah, but all three. We call the timeout.

You're confused. Then there's the delay game. Second one, third one. Anyway, go ahead. I'm with you on the Raiders. I think they have talent. They've made a lot of draft picks. I think that the Packers

are obviously a much better team and so they're probably going to lose that game this week. But they're going to, if they could just play respectably and competently, they can hang in it long enough for the chance

at a wildcard berth. I mean, their schedule is... Delightful. Basically hard in the short term, okay? Because they have Packers, Texans, Lions. And then from there, it's Breeze. Chargers, Bengals, Jets, Chiefs, Titans, Jags, Chargers, Broncos. Well, the fact that the Chargers blow...

The Chargers are an abomination right now. So that's good for them. Bengals are obviously a disaster. You were telling me Jacobs was going to be really good. Yes. I love Obama back, as you know. He's one of those dudes that I'm so traumatized by that Bears-Raiders game. It really changed the course of gambling for me for this entire year.

He's one of those dudes, they would have him be on the backfield, and he would still get five yards. I'm like, how the fuck did he do that again? He's just good. He's awesome. Three down back, great. They don't have a lot else going on on offense. Waller has been great at tight end.

Jacobs has been getting it together. He had a really good game. They know who they are though. They know it's like car has two seconds to throw. That's it. It's going to be short. It's we're going to use Jacobs all the time. It reminds me and Jacobs is a nice path to this,

but it reminds me of kind of like, you know, a handful of years ago, the kind of offense you'd see it like, not now, but years ago when you were getting those like 9-6 Alabama LSU games, like the kind of like, you just need a game manager.

Yeah. If you have the kind of system in place. They traded for Zay Jones, so they're attempting to give Carr more targets. I think he's, I want to say he's completed passes to 14 different players already this year. Like, it's just one of those things

where he doesn't actually have, and obviously we don't need to, you know, go into everything that happened there this season, but they just, you know, they don't have Antonio Brown on that team like they thought they were going to do in the offseason. But the irony is,

he would have, if they had him and his head was on straight, I think they would be a playoff team. They would certainly be a different offense. It's an extra five first downs a game, basically. I want the Raiders to remain relevant for two reasons. One, it's always fun when you can talk about Gruden. Now, you can also do that if they're a debacle.

That's fun too. Yeah. But also heading into the Vegas move, it just feels like a good thing for the sport if they're competent. Now, Carr currently can't push the ball more than four yards downfield at any moment in time. That's what was driving me nuts with the Bears game. It was like, he's not throwing the ball more than three yards. How hard is this? Move everybody up. It's very tough. It's very, very, very tough. And then the draft picks coming in,

you know, they lost to Abram to the shoulder surgery for the year. And Cologne Farrell has been a disappointment so far, but he's extraordinarily talented, the defensive lineman out of Clemson. And the amount of capital that Gruden has been able to accrue from trades and turn into young players,

you're starting to see how that's going to work. And that's not like a defense of the Khalil Mack trade or anything. It's just, hey, get the ability to do what you want. And if you're starting there, at the end of the day, you have more leeway to try things. And it's particularly interesting to consider now, not just in isolation for what the Raiders are doing and how it's working or whether it's working, but because you see this starting to happen elsewhere. You know, the Tunsil trade, which we've talked about, how much they

were able to get for that. And now look at the terms of the Ramsey trade. Obviously, going back to the Khalil Mack trade, if you're able to move elite players and you can get multiple first round picks in return, that fundamentally changes the nature of transactions in the NFL. It does. Tell the Redskins this. Well, I mean, they're hopeless. The morons are sitting on Trent Williams for no reason at all. I do. Ten teams need a left tackle.

I do have a trade item for number two, though. Okay, what's here? I'm going to go right to that. Are the Bengals going to trade AJ Green? Kyle, you want him? Please. Kyle's texting. Well, that's the scary part,

is that the set of possible destinations is pretty small. I think the 49ers would be an incredible, incredible pairing for AJ Green. You have to talk about the Patriots if you're considering the possibilities. And that's obviously extremely unpleasant for anybody but a Patriots fan to consider. I wonder if they would put Nikhil Harry in the trade. Because basically you're giving a first rounder because he was a first rounder and then let's say a third rounder this year or something like that. That seems like a lot for somebody who might not be able to stay healthy.

Well, so those are the two sides of the equation. I mean, even separate from whether they would do it. There's the what's he worth question. And on the one hand, if you just look at the receiver market, you have to look at things like the Antonio Brown trade or the Odell trade. But those were such bizarre, stilted circumstances because of specific either team motivations or leverage in a given moment. And they don't really tell us what the market is for a receiver trade. So then if you look at the wider landscape of trades for elite players, like we were just talking about, the price is pretty high.

Then if you talk about A.J. Green in particular, on the one hand- Isn't it more Amari Cooper would be the comp for this? Amari Cooper would be a great comp, except A.J. Green is simultaneously better than Amari Cooper, but also older and... And more fragile. Injury prone. He's gotten hurt a lot in the last three years. He hasn't played yet this year. In the final year of his contract, so that's another factor too.

But it's also a factor in whether the Bengals would move him, right? Because he's, on the one hand, saying all the right things about how he wants to stay in town, wants to spend his whole career there, just like he cited Larry Fitzgerald as a comp. You know, I want to do here what he did there. I want to own all the team records. AJ, bad idea. Run. It's been fascinating to see how this has bubbled up in the last couple of weeks where every single

person who covers the sport seems to think not that they will trade him, but that they should, that it's just clearly the right move for a team that has is in the midst of a totally lost season. They haven't won a game. They don't they're not necessarily doing the Miami intentional tank, but it's netting out in the same place regardless. And this is what you have to do in the NFL right now, right? The have and have nots nature of the league. You have to go all in on the rebuild if you're going to succeed. Because all these teams have the advanced metrics people now explaining to them why this makes more sense.

Totally. To go one and 50 and then four and 12. So the thing is, if you get into the top, let's say five, of the draft, and you're going to move beyond not only AJ Green, who was like a legend there,

and it would be very tough for them to part with a player who means that much to the franchise. I acknowledge that. They'll never forget the four first round losses with them?

They won't forget those. That's true, because that meant a lot to them to get to the first round of that all. Oh, man. Remember that Saturday game when we scored six points?

If they're moving beyond Andy Dalton too. It's time. Definitely time. Trade him to the Bears. Mays would be delighted. Draft a quarterback. Start the rebuild. Trade A.J. Green. Get whatever you can. Reports are flowing out that they would maybe be able to get

a first. Again, on the one hand, given the... What's the compensatory pick if he leaves? Don't you get like a third if he signs somewhere else? Yeah, a third. That's why I was thinking Nikhil Harian, a third from the Pats. I don't know if that gets it done.

The Pats, if he leaves, they get the third back. If you have enough desperate teams, I think you're going to have to, I don't know if it takes a first, but I think it probably takes a second. The Pats have never been desperate. The Pats try to get value where the value is, but they don't panic.

I think if you're going desperate, I don't think it's San Francisco either. Who is it? I don't know. Is it Oakland? That would be, I mean, that'd be hilarious. That would be great. I was thinking,

I was thinking more like, What about like Seattle? We're going to talk about Russell Wilson in a minute. I gotta say, I kind of like Seattle's receivers. Sure. Yeah. I mean,

Metcalf is incredible. The thing they need is, I thought Disley was really good for him. He's done though. Yeah, I know. But so, I almost think they need a tight end,

but so do the Patriots. Yeah. What's the tight end market? What available tight ends do we have? Man. Just a lot of mediocre ones. The tight end landscape this season is bleak. Well, I know.

If you drafted a tight end high in fantasy like yours truly did, you have spent most of the year regretting it. Yeah, I'm talking to you, Zach Ertz. Come on, buddy. I need you. Well, I feel for the Bengals fans because I know when they trade AJ, a really emotional era of just consecutive first round losses for half of a decade. It's all relative, man.

We'll finally be over. Here's the thing. I say this with a lot of sincere affection for you. You're greedy and you're spoiled. Okay? You've gotten used to... You hate the AFC North. You should be on my corner here.

I want the Bengals to fail miserably. I hope the Steelers, Browns, and Bengals collectively never win another football game, including when they're playing each other somehow. But it just makes football sense for them to do this. It does. I agree. The fascinating part is that everybody on the team

is like, we're not do this. It does. I agree. The fascinating part is that everybody on the team is like, we're not doing this. So it's hard to tell if this is just a fully media-fueled story, people saying they have to do this, so let's talk about it like they're going to.

Zach Taylor came out and said, we're not trading that guy. Drake or Patrick, to the athletic, real candor, he said, that better not happen, period. It better not.

And then continued, I feel like it's going to fall apart. You can't do it. You can't do it, man. Wow, they must really love AJ Green. I think he's very special to everyone there. So I think that's going to be really fascinating to watch. The trade deadline, I should say, is October 29th. So it's coming up.

You know who he'd be special to? Tom Brady. I bet Tom Brady would have him live in his house. This is, even for you, this is exhausting. What? Tom Brady would have him live in his house. Even for you, this is exhausting. What? This is like your 97th Patriots mention. I've been in here 20 minutes. Go to number one. I'm sure you'll find a way to bring it up here too. I have no doubt. Number one, we very briefly touched on this last week when we were talking about Mahomes and Watson facing off in the shape of the MVP picture in the league. Russell Wilson, MVP.

Let's fucking do it. It's time. It's Russ's league right now. Oh, going there. 20 to 6, I felt like he was going to bring him back. That's an MVP moment. Totally. He's like, oh, they're fine.

He'll bring him back. I totally agree. That's a huge part of it is just when you're watching him right now, when you're watching the Seahawks right now, you just don't feel like they're out of the game. You feel the opposite. You feel that he will somehow find a way to do it. You're getting the MVP moments right now from him,

not only the comeback there, but like the seven-play touchdown drive against the Browns where we find out his helmet's not working, the communication, the comm system out his helmet's not working. The communication, the comm system in his helmet isn't working. So he is just out there calling plays and running the offense and leading his team on his own on an island. People love shit like that. That is irresistible if you're a sports fan. He became the Vegas favorite this week. He deserves it.

Caesars has him in the lead, not Mahomes. That's incredible. I think he deserves it. Watching the, I've seen a lot of Seahawks this year for some reason. You know, Metcalf's a rookie. He basically can only

run straight lines. That's his game. But it's effective. All he does is go down. But I mean, you know what he's going to do. Lockett, who I think has

really made a jump this year, but it's certainly, he was like a big play guy. That was about it. Now he's become this reliable dude. And then he just pulls whoever's out there somehow is wide open in the back of the end zone. Wilson's giving it to him with like an inch to spare,

not to mention the third down scrambles and all the other stuff he does. I don't know. I've been, I'm with you. I think he's been the best player through six weeks. The subtle shift, I think, in perception that we collectively as the viewing public seem to be sharing is that, and Mays wrote about this in his Monday piece, Russell Wilson's always been great, right? Whether you started watching him when he surprisingly won the job as a rookie or whether you watched him at Wisconsin, whether you watched him at NC State,

whether you watched him when he tried to play baseball for a while, whatever it might be. He's always been gifted. That's never been a question. Sometimes with the Seahawks for a while there, often because of how the offense was structured around him, it seemed like when he was scrambling or when he was trying to make something happen with the Russell Wilson magic, it was a necessity. Now, again, the subtle shift is that it doesn't seem like he has to do that it just seems like he can do whatever he wants that he is utterly and completely in control and in command like the entire game he's the puppet master right and he's just pulling the strings for everything and everyone don't you think part of it is they're blocking better for him than they did the last

couple years i still don't think they have a great offensive line, but it does seem like they're, they're at least more competent than they used to be. Yes, definitely true. And I think that's, that's kind of true for the offense around him as a whole, where the improvement is there, but it's also like a matter of degree.

It's not like anyone is saying Brian Schottenheimer has completely solved it. They finally understand how to maximize having Russell Wilson and having signed him to the $140 million extension and making the most of it. You still want to look at that and say, why are they running so often on first down? Or why aren't they shifting to play action even more often?

But it's trending up. And it unsurprisingly turns out that with a talent like Russell Wilson, trending up is enough to make all the difference. It's just a shame there aren't more media people who are Seahawks fans on Twitter, really debating this and talking about it. Such an undercover team. You know who they're playing this week?

My Baltimore Ravens. I know. A little worried about what Russ might do to the secondary. The secondary is really, really depleted and safety and corner. You just added a turnstile. I welcome Marcus Peters to the Baltimore community and to my home and my heart. I'm here to support him.

Let's talk succession really quick. Okay. I really liked it. I loved it. I thought it was a swerve at the end. I've watched it a few times. I thought he was going to confess that he killed the guy. Yeah.

I considered that. By the way, we're doing all spoiler alerts from Hera. I thought Kendo was going to say, last year I killed the guy, blah, blah, blah, as a way to both get it off his chest, but also kind of fuck the family over. Sure. And that's where I thought it was going.

And then when the switch clicked and he did the but the dramatic but like much like the bachelor when they do the right mallory you ever i can't believe what a special person you are but yeah um when you did the butt i was like oh man uh-huh so my question to you is, do you think Logan wanted him to do this? Okay. It's the question. I don't have an answer. I don't have clarity. I've been thinking about this pretty much nonstop since Sunday night.

I've been talking about it a lot with people in my life and strangers. I think that the two main ways you can process it are that Logan said the thing to Kendall about not being a killer because he was priming him to do this because he knew after the phone call that he took at the gas station and everything else that ultimately the only head that the shareholders really would accept, the only blood sacrifice that would trigger that dark magic was Logan himself. And that in order to do it in a way that would ultimately protect the family and the company's legacy and power, fend off Stewie, is if he protected the children, kept them positioned to lead effectively, and that this would be the only way that Kendall could do that. But he had to have the faith that Kendall would do this. And while he did say to him, I trust you, Ken, right? So that can now be interpreted in any number of ways.

There's also the way to read the smile that is he didn't want him to do that. It wasn't his intention. But at the end of the day, begrudgingly or not, he's proud because Kendall's finally the son and the man that he always wanted him to be and that he never was. I mean, he hasn't shit in his bed from a heroin cocaine battle in at least a month and a half. I want to be very clear. You don't know that. What? Yeah.

You do not know that. Did you see his bed in the cabin on the yacht? God knows what was in there. Not Naomi. She had to go home. I would have watched eight hours on the yacht. God knows what was in there. Not Naomi. She had to go home. I would have watched eight hours of the yacht. The yacht was so spectacular.

I loved everything about it. It was fabulous. I liked the living room. I liked the bedrooms. I liked the little slide that hung on the side. The slide was great. I loved the little side boats.

I really- I loved the fact that there was no crew. There's never been a boat that had less crew members on it. There were definitely people bringing them chicken to eat, though. That was it.

Yeah, chicken. Bringing them chicken. I enjoyed learning about Greg's new standing as a champagne aficionado. I found that candidly, deeply aspirational, you know, to get to the point in life where you can just say, this extremely expensive champagne is not good enough for me. I was like, goals, man. Fuck yeah.

Yacht goals. Loved that. I don't know how Greg didn't clean up his toenails before heading to the yacht though. That's just like. What do you think? You're kind of the perfect person to answer this. Oh God, I'm terrified. Yeah. Well, cause I know you think about weird shit like this. Shiv and Tom's sex life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You think it's one of those where it's deeply unsatisfying or it's actually the one thing

that's keeping them together. That they have this fucked up relationship, but in the sack, this is where they really figured it out. I'm going deeply unsatisfying, but I would also accept the other option. Glad you've come to me with this. I've thought about this a lot. I figured you had. I think that like everything else in their relationship, it is 90% transactional,

that they would say out loud that it's 100% transactional, but that the 10% of it that is sincere and pure is actually the most precious thing in the world to them. And that's why Shiv made that mistake, ultimately. That's why Shiv failed, is because it's not actually because she cares about Tom more than Kendall. I mean, think back to earlier in the season, one of the most tender and moving moments was Kendall hugging her and crying and saying, just protect me, take care of me. And she didn't. She chose Tom. Why? Because she likes him more because she cares. No, it's because he made her feel like a bad person and she doesn't want to. She needs to hold on to that one little glimmer of possibility that allows her to deceive herself into thinking she's decent.

She's not decent. Yeah, she's a monster. She officially became a monster. A well-dressed monster. When she was talking the witness out of. That was awful. But I think they intended that to be the, here is the moment when we look back and we're like, wow, Shiv is a monster. What was the tipping point? It was this scene.

Everyone on the show is morally bankrupt to some degree. And the moments that are actually redeeming for each of the people, I think it's fascinating to see how the mass response has been like, go, Kendall, go. Because ultimately what he did was betray his family. I also was like, go, Kendall, go, just to be clear. He's a murdering drug addict. And a bed shitter. The moments that are redeemable are when they surprisingly actually show compassion for another person. So one of my favorite moments in the finale was Roman sticking up for Jerry. Because he actually really does care about her. Oh, he loves her. He loves her. not to get too like saccharine with it, because I think that one of my,

one of my core beliefs in life that I also think is true in succession is that there's no such thing as pure, true altruism, none. Okay. Everything is always slightly motivated by self-interest. And I think that's just human nature as depressing as that is to say it out loud.

And so I think Roman loves Jerry, but I think also Roman loves the fact that Jerry allows him to love her, you know? And that's why the show is so great. That kind of layering in depth. That's the only genuine relationship on the whole show. It's fucking great. It's so good.

I love it. I'm so invested in them. Kyle was deeply disappointed we didn't get a Jerry nude scene. Oh, wait, that's a season three thing. I'm fine. Kyle's going to stay patient. No need rushing that one.

So you think Tom and Shiv transactional even in the sec? Yeah. My take on that is I think she is a much more, much more, much more experienced lover. Oh, yeah. Going from way back. And Tom, the pivotal point was the bachelor party when the when yeah closed loop system swallowed his own load swallowed his own

load but he was so shocked by how it's a thing couldn't wait to tell everyone it was a thing he it's clear he's had sex with not that many people whereas shiv shiv's one of those rich, the one girl in the rich, rich, rich family who like when she was 13 was going to parties at high school and I just think, I think she's seen a lot. What do you think Tom's number is? I think Tom's number is less than 10. What do you think Shiv's number is? I think Shiv's number just of men who thought

they were the only person in Shiv's life and that she loved them completely. And then it turned out that wasn't true is at least 30. That part I respect though. Yeah. But I think that's part of what she is. It's all transactional to her. Yes. The ability to exert your sexual power over someone is a cool thing that I admire in Shiv. Tom, that was another moment I really liked in the finale. Two scenes with them. I know you're not a fan of that pairing, but the moment where he turns down the threesome

by basically just saying, I don't want this. He tried to make it sound, oh, what if I just watched you two? He starts saying the dildo thing. So I'm going to end up with a dildo in my... And he can't even finish it. It's incredible. It was also such a funny con, but then the moment with them on the Cove, it was like, I forget the exact phrasing,

but basically what if the sad that I am without you is better than the sad I am with you. I just thought that was absolutely gutting and like really beautiful and very true to life. That's the kind of thing you have to think about with a person. Not every relationship is perfect. In fact, no relationship is perfect. What fact, no relationship is perfect. What are you getting out of it? What are you giving to another person? There's only one relationship that's perfect. My daughter's relationship with her boyfriend. Seems like it's perfect.

I thought you were going to say Tom Brady's with his new right guard, Kyle. Tom Brady and Giselle might be perfect too. Oh man. Who knows? Maybe. Did you watch the Gemstones finale? No, I didn't watch Gemstones. Oh my

God, you would love it! I know, I just What? I will. You will love it. I'm absolutely gonna watch it. Okay, I'll hold off on that. I was gonna make a comp between Tom turning down the threesome scene and a hilarious conversation about sex lives and numbers on Gemstones, but I'll

hold off for now. So you think Roman and Jerry, we see some sort of necrophiliac sex scene with them next year. You're meant to be dead. Fantasy. Can you just lie there? That happens. I don't think that Jerry would play along with that.

That's my take on Jerry, but I don't know. When Jerry's name was getting thrown around at one point, I really got scared and upset. I know. She's easily my favorite character of the show. She's fantastic. She's fantastic. What do you think Willa's future is as a playwright?

Could be tough. What is the play about? Do we know? Sands? You know, I know that there were sand mites and Greg got a really bad neck rash and Kendall stole one of the lead actresses to fuck for a couple nights. I know that there were sand mites and greg got a really bad neck rash and uh uh kendall stole one of the lead actresses to fuck for a couple nights i know that um quietly one of the most devastating

moments in the episode was when connor offered himself up as the blood sacrifice and logan was like well we'll we'll give it some thought right like i might as well offer up like a sack of potatoes what did he call his fans? The con heads? The con. That was what the guy offered up to him, right? It was like the con heads or was it the con heads? Something like that.

The con heads or the con. Damn it. I wish I was done. It's like, look at what the con heads sent. Delighted that we got another reference to the Napoleon's penis. You know, his insistence on collecting great phalluses from history. He's actually the most clever character in the entire show because-

Oh, fantastic. You're talking about four siblings. The black sheep character, I think people would have it a certain way where it'd just be like the pure black sheep. He's actually such a smarter version of a black sheep because he's not totally a black sheep, but he is. He's a little off. He's probably been off his whole life, but not too off. Totally. And he is in some ways the most overt caricature of what a rich entitled son of a tyrannical business lord is supposed to be like. But then there are these moments

where you really pity him, like at the table when they're all talking about who the sacrifice is supposed to be. And I'm trying to remember, I think it was Jerry. It might've been Carl or someone else, but I think it was Jerry saying about, you know, Kendall, oh, it's perfect. First son. And it has to correct. Second son. Like people just forget that Connor even exists. He's a joke. He's almost treated like he was an adopted son or something that Logan never accepted. But he's actually not. It's his real son. First born.

Shunned to the side. Literally his number one boy. Well, I have an announcement to make. I haven't even told you yet. Oh my God. I'm making you and Jason do binge mode succession before season three. It's happening. There's 20 episodes. You finished Star Wars. Couldn't be happier. And then we have to get it ready for whenever it's going to be at least a year. Count me in. But you got to do it, right? We have to do it with this show. Oh my God. It would be a delight. An absolute delight.

It has to happen. I'll bring the champagne. You bring the caviar. All right. Kyle, we just announced it. Major announcement. I'll clip that out. Not as major as the Bengals fans wanting to hold on to four straight years of Bengals losses with A.J. Green. The memories. They can commiserate with Connor.

That time they lost to Matt Schaub in the playoffs. Oh man. If Matt Schaub hadn't gotten hot against us. All right. Mallory. Yes. This was a pleasure as always. We will see you next week.

A delight for me. Thanks, SG. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to Square. More than a little white credit card reader.

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Until then. I don't have