The Bill Simmons Podcast - Lowry to Miami? Plus: Lonzo’s Upside and the Rest of Free Agency Week With Jackie MacMullan

Episode Date: August 2, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Jackie MacMullan to kick off NBA free agency week. They discuss what Miami would look like with Kyle Lowry, Lonzo Ball’s underrated first four years in the league, Kawhi’s future, possible Ben Simmons landing spots, Dallas’s biggest needs, whom the Knicks will target in free agency, and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Jackie MacMullan Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is episode 199. It is a sports movie. I'm excited about it. It's a borderline one for us, but I think it was warranted for a variety of reasons. So that is coming for you on Monday night on the ringer. We are breaking down NBA free agency all week. You can listen to the ringer NBA show. Kevin O'Connor has decided not to sleep this week. He's just staying up 24 hours a day. And, uh, we will have you covered all over the place, including

on this podcast. Um, Jackie McMullin, excuse me, Jackie McMullin is coming up in a second. And we're going to be talking about all the free agency plots heading into what promises to be a tumultuous week. I was in Las Vegas on Friday, which was just covered with people with masks and then people that should have been wearing masks. But we had Cousin Sal's 50th birthday extravaganza event, which included a roast and 48 hours in Vegas. I kept my streak alive.

No gambling. I can't do it. I can't gamble with the mask on. I just can't. I can't do it. I don't like it. I feel like the karma is against me on the table. And it just checks too many boxes of, if I do this, I know I'm going to lose. And I remember the last time I felt that way was in Cleveland for the finals in

2018. I went to the casino there with my friend, Chris Chen, walked in, immediately was like, oh my God, this is a loss. Wherever we go, we're going to lose. I know this is going to work out badly. We went up to the higher end tables just to try to get a better karma thing because it was a little cleaner and the air was a little better up there and proceeded to get shellacked. Almost like a comedy. It was like a comedy where guys go to Vegas or something and just get crushed at a blackjack table. We just got demolished. And it was over so fast. It was over in like 20 minutes. And the whole time I was mad at Chen because I was like, I knew, I told you this was going to happen. So I've been in Vegas now three times this year. And each time

I've not gambled. I woke up today at eight o'clock and drove back, got back to LA in four hours, which people, it was less than four hours. It was like three hours, 50. And that was including a gas stop. So people from LA, I know you're impressed, but, but yeah, it's just, it's a different kind of Vegas when you go and you're not gambling. It's very crowded. There's a lot of great restaurants. It's fun to walk around. It's's very crowded. There's a lot of great restaurants. It's fun to walk around. It's way too hot. It's 100 million degrees.

But the mass thing is really rough, especially, again, in elevators. You're in a crowded elevator. You don't know what's going on. So my point for this long, boring story is I just want life to be normal again. Can't we get this together, America, the world, all of us? Can we just get this together? Can we get rid of the stupid? Just get vaccinated, people out there.

Just do it. It's fine. They're not putting a computer chip in your arm. Just do it. It protects you from dying from a deadly virus. Just go get vaccinated. It's fine. All right.

Jackie's coming up first, Pearl Jam. All right. We are taping this. It is 5 o'clock Pacific time on Sunday. Free agency is going to kick off on Monday. And yet, as always with this stuff, stuff starts leaking out. Stuff starts going in motion, really when it's not supposed to. I don't know when we threw away the moratorium thing. But the big story, Jackie McMullen, is that Kyle Lowry, I don't feel like Lowry is worthy of a sweepstakes tag.

As good of a player as he is, I think I'll probably end up making the Hall of Fame. The Lowry sweepstakes feels a little ambitious to me. But it looks like Miami is in the lead right now. And we get to hear about him and Heat culture for the rest of the summer. I know you're excited. No, so here's the thing about Kyle Lowry. I agree with you. So Kyle Lowry, regardless of the fact that the Phoenix Suns went to the finals

and Chris Paul became everybody's favorite nostalgic player. And we all wanted to espouse how great Chris Paul was and the reinvention of Chris Paul, which is all true, by the way. So now everybody wants to say, well, all teams are looking for the next Chris Paul, this savvy veteran that's going to guide them through. Kyle Lauer is going to be that guy,

regardless of whether anything happened with the Phoenix Suns and Chris Paul, because the Raptors didn't train him at the deadline he's a free agent he's 35 years old he's a gamer he's he's that he is that guy that that gritty guy that could put a team over the top perhaps so I agree with you he's not uh I mean he's not LeBron James he's not Ka Kawhi Leonard, who we think is going to, we think we're pretty sure will re-sign with the Clippers. But who could tell with that dude?

So now all of a sudden, he kind of is holding us all hostage, right? Does he go to Miami with his buddy Jimmy Butler? Did he give us some smoke screens? They re-sign, they pick up Drogic's option, which is like 19.4 million. So now you think, all right, well, they're, they're going to use him in the sign of trade, right? That's, that's what we expect or maybe flip him.

You know, they get to three way, but Dallas is still in this thing. I believe for sure. I think new Orleans would like to make a play for him. I don't know how much of a chance they have and, and never, never,

ever discount Darryl Morey and Philadelphia. I just wouldn't. They almost traded him one him one other time. I'm going to circle back to that in a second because I had a Philly trade to throw at you. But with the Lowry thing, so the Chris Paul thing, first of all, Chris Paul is one of the best like 30 parts of all time. I think it's tough to compare to him anything.

I agree. I also, the more I think about the playoffs and how goofy they were and how if Davis doesn't get hurt, they probably lose to the Lakers. Then you see what Giannis did against the Suns, especially the last four games with a lot of the same athleticism where they just had no matchup for him. And maybe Davis healthy could have done that. Then Denver, they have injuries all the way through. They get to the finals. Kudos to them. But I do think it's made people think this is just a realistic thing. I'm not the first person to say this. We have 15 teams right now who feel like they're one move away from being the Suns.

And the Suns might have just been a fluke for a lot of different reasons. It was a weird season. With that said, Hero didn't play well last year. I'm not sure Robinson, if he's going to be a $20 million guy, I'm not sure that makes sense to me. And with Butler's age and they went all in on Bam, if they get Lowry, that's a veteran nucleus. That's probably, what do you think, two, three-year window with that?

And then they can kind of surround it with pieces, which they have always shown that they have the ability to bring people to Miami. I am just, to me, Butler, Bam, and Lowry, I don't feel like is in my top three or top two in the East. I would still have Brooklyn and Milwaukee ahead of them. I know they have to do the Lowry thing, but it doesn't change my feelings on the East next year, which is Milwaukee and Brooklyn. I would just argue too, that Drogic is so sneaky. Good.

Yeah. Just, just, you know, Lowry for Drogic straight up. How much better are you? Really? Really?

Yeah. And I know Lowry's a more complete player. I get all of that, but I just think Drogic sneaky. Good. I guess I think a little more of Duncan Robinson than you do because shooting remains the most precious skill set in this game. Even though the one thing I love best about these quirky playoffs was that the big man made a tremendous comeback. And I love that because as a former big woman, that sounds so awkward, but I just love low post players and I love big men. And I love even if they're shooting threes or not shooting threes, if they're dominating the game, I always think that's

good for basketball. And that happened a little bit this year with Embiid. And you can call Giannis, he's not a center. I get that. He's a big man. I don't care what anybody says. He's a guy that's going to do all his damage in the paint. Yeah, he's doing all his damage in the paint. So I kind of liked that that happened again. Having said all of that, Duncan Robinson is such a pure shooter and it's such a tremendous skillset. And I don't think you have seen anywhere near the ceiling of what Duncan Robinson can do to round out his game. He's just a very hardworking kid that takes this job very seriously. He's just a young kid who I think can get bigger and stronger. I don't even think his body is completely filled out the way it could. And I know he's, I don't know, how old is he? How old is Duncan Robinson? 24? He's out of the league, out of the college for three years.

So yeah, about 24, 25. So anyway, so I think a little more of him than you. Now remember, he's a restricted. Someone could throw a pile of money at him and they'll have to match it. A lot of money. If they want to overpay for him, and they'll have to match it. A lot of money. If they want to overpay for him, teams have cap space to do that. I mean, do the Knicks want to get really crazy and do that? I don't think so. But the Knicks have $52 million. Spurs have $48 million.

What's Dallas? Dallas is around $33 million, I think. Dallas got to like $37. Just for the record, I really like Duncan Robinson. I just think when you start paying guys like that $20 for the record, I really like Duncan Robinson. I just think when you start paying guys like that 20 plus a year, that's the quickest way to get in trouble, especially if, oh, Craig says he's 27 years old. Yeah. I thought he might be a little older because... Yeah. But when you start paying the non-all-stars in the 20s and up, we've seen over and over again

that that's how teams get into trouble. Andans, I think, is a poor man's version of Duncan Robinson, but last year he got 5 for 80. To me, that just seemed really high. People are like, no, no, it's good. It's shooting. It's important. I feel like that's Fournier is another one where if Fournier thinks he's going to be in the 20s,

I think the Celtics are handling that correctly. They're like, all right, good luck. We're not paying you $22 million a year. That's not happening. I bet the Knicks will. I think they will. If you're the Knicks, you have to. See, if you're the Knicks, you have to.

You're in a different position than the Celtics. Although, I don't know, that's a pretty bad look for Boston if Fournier walks. It's not a great look for you. That's one of the things with free agency. You have the you-have-to teams. Like last year with Charlotte, right? And we talked about this last summer, you and I.

Peyton Reed was too pricey. He had not stayed healthy enough for the past few years to warrant giving him $30 million a year. But if you're Charlotte, you have to. How else are you going to get somebody? And I think with Robinson, somebody's going to spend the money just because it's like, hey, this guy has a chance to be a level below an all-star,

but a 45% three-point shooter. And if we can put a couple good... Yeah, we can put a couple guys around him. This is worth the money to us. I just think for Miami, when you're already paying Bam, you're already paying Butler, year after year,

you're in the luxury tax or near it or around it. It's really tough to then also have to look for a third star after you pay Duncan Robinson. Especially when it's been a bad year for the cruise lines. Bad year, bad decade. Right. Mickey Harrison's pockets aren't quite so deep anymore.

Miami's an interesting team. Again, the other guy I look at is BAM. BAM statistically was better in every sense this season than he was the previous season, and yet he didn't make all NBA, and he wasn't included in that elite group. But he's another guy that I just don't think we've seen the best of him yet.

And that's what I always look at when I'm looking at a roster. I'm always like, all right, but who can get better? So let's take Marcus Smart, all right? Just because we're Boston guys. Oh, boy. But Marcus Smart is what he is. I mean, he gets a little better every year with his shooting,

but he is what he is. I don't think that's true about Bam Adebayo at all. Yeah. It's weird. Bam's stats were slightly better last year. They were. I test-wise, I liked how he played two years ago more for some reason. But that's because

he was surprising and he was energetic. I mean, we get spoiled what we see from these guys and we want more and we want the incrementally better

because that's what the great players do. All the great players get, they don't, actually, they don't get incrementally better. They get significantly better every year

and that's why, that's why they are the all-NBA guys. Do you worry about Lowry? I brought this up in previous episodes, so apologies to the listeners. But do you worry about him? Durability-wise? Yeah, Chris has set the bar so high for these mid-30s guys, but he also completely changed his life.

He had a plant-based diet. He did all this stuff. He really worked at it in like a Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers kind of way. Kyle Lowry, you almost think about him, I would compare him to like a middle linebacker or a running back where it's like your body only has so many collisions in it. And I do think there's been subtle signs of deterioration with him the last couple of years. I don't think his shooting's been as good. And to think that he's going to be able to stay at the level, even he's been at the last two years for the next three,

just seems unrealistic to me. Now we've seen over and over again, athletes have pushed the envelope with age and what we thought was possible. But to me, he's a guy who has taken just way more punishment than Chris Paul has just from how he plays basketball. Absolutely. But I would also say this.

He's played significantly more minutes than Chris Paul, too. Like, think about Chris Paul. That was such a gift for him at OKC last year because they did control his minutes to some degree. And I think Monty did a pretty good job controlling his minutes this year. Kyle Lowry was playing, you know, high 30s for the Toronto Raptors as a champion and then as the defending champions. If he goes to Miami, first of all, if he goes to Miami, he'll be on one of those plant-based diets, whether he wants to be or not. He's got to pass

that body fat percentage test. Oh, I forgot about that. Come on, the vaunted heat culture now. And Shaq isn't there to change all the machines. When Shaq was there, when the coaches weren't looking, he'd turn the machines down and change the body fat numbers. And he's not there to do that for Kyle Lowry. So, I mean, Kyle Lowry's got to, if he's got a tall line, I think he will. I mean, I've always said that Kyle Lowry was always misleading in the way he looked and then the way he actually performed and the conditioning he was actually in. He's actually proven that he could play big minutes and hit big shots.

I mean, I'm a really huge fan of Kyle Lowry, but it's just interesting because of the way things have bounced here, because we're pretty sure Kawhi is going to just re-up with the Clippers. This is a point guard free agent class. I mean, look at, think of the point guards that are free agents in this class. Now, Conley, by all accounts, sounds like he's going to re-sign with Utah, but you got a lot of point guards out there. I mean, Lonzo Ball, sounds like he's going to re-sign with Utah. But you've got a lot of point guards out there. I mean, Lonzo Ball, I know he's restricted. I'm just fascinated to see what's going to happen with him. Campaign, he's got my attention.

What's going to happen with campaign? You know, I'm pretty sure Chris Paul re-ups. It appears that way. I know he declined the option, but I think they work something out there. Patty Mills is out there. I think that's done already. Which one? Chris Paul, you mean?

Oh, yeah. Well, that was our side. But what about Spencer Dinwiddie? Where does Spencer Dinwiddie go? Drenna Schroeder, Reggie Jackson, Derek Rose. There's all these kind of, to me, interesting, intriguing point guards out there. Nothing can happen until Kyle Lowry makes the decision

because he's number one on the list. Yeah, that's why it's not like the Lowry sweepstakes. It's more of like the Lowry dominoes. Yes, that's how much we're ready to put it.

He has to pick his team. Five teams are in it. Once he picks his team, then Dallas has to audible. New Orleans has to figure out plan B. Toronto, we'll see what happens with them. I actually thought

after they didn't pick Jalen Suggs, I thought they were going to bring back Lowry, but maybe they feel like they're getting droggage and precious, or I don't know what the second piece to that would be. Or maybe not. Or maybe they go with Spencer Dinwiddie or somebody like that. Coming off an ACL injury.

Do you buy the rumors about Laureen DeRozan? There was a little reunion rumors on the social media today. Who knows if it's true, but I actually thought that was a fun premise of both of them somehow going to Miami with Butler

and BAM. I would assume at that point, Robinson would have to be involved in that one with the Spurs. Yeah, and if you're DeRozan, what did you make, $26 million last year? How much can they pay you? Because I kept hearing DeRozan to the Lakers, and I'm like, well, only if you're going to take $5.9 million.

DeRozan to the Clippers, only if you're taking $5.9 million because that's all they got. So none of that made sense to me. I feel like we've been hearing DeRozan to the Knicks for six months. So that's probably why it's not true, right? But, I mean, he'll get paid. Someone will pay him. But it'll be interesting to see.

We kept talking after Westbrook went aboard with the Lakers, which you and I haven't talked about, but I'm sure you dissected that already. Who are the guys that are going to – who are the veterans, the grizzled veterans, that are going to take less money to fill out the roster? So you were talking about sentimental reunions. I'm pretty sure Melo ends up there, right? Well, they've had multiple chances to sign Melo and didn't. So I'm still dubious. Something has held LeBron off with recommending him.

But maybe this time after, I don't know, maybe this time it's different. You know, a guy like Rudy Gay, would he take less money to go with the Lakers and win a championship? I don't know. I think that's going to have to be, well, let's go back to Miami for one second

because I think you and I are aligned. If they do Lowry, they have to keep Duncan Robinson. They just have to pay him more than he's worth, which they have to go in the 20s to keep him because now you're on a clock with your team. I think whether you keep Hero or you use him as a trade with something else to try to round out your roster or whatever,

but you're talking about like Gay and people like that. I think the big thing about this free agency that I don't feel like people have been focused enough on. And I didn't really realize it until I spent like two hours in a Vegas hotel room yesterday going through everybody's cap space, what the cap was, all the free agents. A, way more free agents.

And I think it's just a product of just shorter contracts. So there's like a hundred free agents and you get to like the 87th free agent and it's somebody who's like, not bad. It's like Bryn Forbes. And you're like, wow, there's just a lot of guys. So you have that. The cap didn't go up because we had the pandemic.

So basically the caps, the caps not that much off where it was last year. It might've gone up like 2 million, but you have all these contracts, you know, the big contracts, they take Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown. These contracts all have bumps. They all go up one, two, 3 million. So I just feel like there's less money and then there's less teams with real cap space. So you hear like, Oh, Schroeder, Schroeder will get 20 million. Duncan Robinson will get 22

million. Lonzo get 20. It's like at some, that money's not going to be there. Eight teams are going to have the money. Then we're relying on signing trades. As you know, the signing trade thing sounds great on paper. It rarely happens. Yeah, it doesn't work out. Maybe twice a summer. So I just feel like, I think there's going to be a lot of bottom feeder stuff. And I think it's great for the Nets. I think it's great for the Lakers. I think it's great for the Warriors. And I think it's great for the Nets. I think it's great for the Lakers. I think it's great for the Warriors. And I think it's great for the Clippers, where they're just going to be able to cherry pick these.

Like Otto Porter, what's he worth? Is he a $5 million guy? How about your boy Malik Monk? How about him? What's he worth? He went from 28% three-point shooting to 40% three-point shooting this year. Somebody is going to get him for a good price. What about both of our guys, Kelly Olenek? Kelly Olenek, yeah. Could you get Kelly Olenek

for like one year, $4 million? I feel like you might be able to. Or maybe the 5.9. Maybe that's more his slot, the mid-level exception. What happens to Laurie Markkinen, who we have no idea if he's good. He might actually be good. Well, and they haven't given up on him quite yet. They could still re-sign him. So, I mean, the Bulls are interesting to me just because

they have some interest in doing some things. You hear Lonzo Ball, his name, connected to them. But it feels to me like if the Bulls signed him to an offer sheet, that if you're New Orleans and you don't get Lowry and it just doesn't feel like they're going to, you got to match that, don't you?

Don't you got to bring Lonzo Ball back? I would. Lonzo Ball to me is really interesting. The Celtics have been connected to Lonzo Ball and I haven't been able to find out if there's any truth to that at all. I think there is. Well, if there is, you know what that means. That's a sign and trade with Marcus Smart.

I mean, that's the only way you could do it. Conspiracy Bill has a thought on this. We're going to take a quick break, but I have a thought on this that you're going to enjoy. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,

he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November.

Sign up now. Just search Movember. How can you be sure you're making the right decision when choosing a university? The smart approach is to look at the facts, like the fact that York U graduates have a 90% employer satisfaction rate. That's because across its three GTA campuses, York U's programs are strategically designed to prepare you for a meaningful career and long-term success. Join us in creating positive change at yorku.ca slash write the future. All right, you mentioned Lonzo and the Celtics. So on Friday, the Celtics do a couple weird moves. Ah, so weird.

They somehow, weird, but I actually kind of like them. So they get rid of Tristan Thompson, who by all accounts, we don't need to go into it, needed to go. No problem. Needed, needed, period, to, period, go, period. So they got rid of him. They bring back Chris Dunn and sneak him into this exception for $5 million. Then they're able to grab Josh Richardson, who was horrendous last year,

who really sucked. Awful. But might be talented. Udoka coached him in Philly. Right. Two years ago. So obviously was putting in word for him and they might feel like, look,

he's just not meant to be a catch and shoot guy next to Luca. You got to involve them more. He's. And if this doesn't work out, at least he's an expiring contract for us. So you have smart who makes 15. You have Chris done who makes five. You have Lonzo who we're thinking is in that 21, 22 first year thing. And then you have- And think about that. Wait, just think about that. That Lonzo

Ball is going to get 21 or 22 million a year based on where he was 12 months ago, just because you're talking about money and how much people get paid. I wanted that to just sink in for a minute. Go ahead, continue. The case for it, 23 years old. I love him. Really shot the ball well last year. I think he took eight threes a game. He was at like 38% from three. He's a legitimately above average three-point shooter now.

I think he's a very good defender. He doesn't need the ball, which is really important for the Celtics team. They need to bring in guys who don't need the ball because Brown and Tatum are so ball dominant. And I got to be honest, I really like him. I'm on the record as like, I really want the Celtics to get him. This would be my dream for this summer. I just think he's 23 years old. Look at his NBA career. What went well? Year one Lakers, it's just a disaster. Year two Lakers, LeBron comes in, decides 10 days into the season,

like, I don't want to play with these guys, and checks out and makes faces at them all year. Goes to New Orleans year three. Zion's hurt most of the year. It's a whole new roster. It's all the Lakers retreats. They have Alvin Gentry. That's a mess. Year four, Van Gundy comes in.

Eric Boetso, Stevenry. That's a mess. Year four, Van Gundy comes in. Eric Boetso, Stephen Adams, Zion's healthy. Now you have the Zion Ingram tug war. Everyone hates Van Gundy. Things are falling apart and the whole team. And so those are his four NBA years. There wasn't a normal year yet. So I think he's worth the risk.

I do too. And I will say that I think the Lakers did a horrible disservice to him. Me too. Including Irvin Magic Johnson, by the way. Just the way they dissed that kid before. And so much of it, I think, had to do with his father and the whole reputation of the family. And that kid has been, by all accounts, you ask. I always ask players about him.

And they're like, he's quiet. He's funny funny he fits in everywhere he never says anything he's you know he's not at all bombastic there's just nothing about him that's that way and just think of the microscope he was under forget his brother who we all knew was talented and was the better of the two and all of that he's the one that bore the brunt of all the nonsense that was that his family was enveloped in and he handled it pretty well. He really did. I agree.

Well, you think so if New Orleans is looking at a sign and trade for him and people are like, Oh, well they'll sign and trade him to Chicago. It's like, why? So,

so I'm getting like Kobe way back. Why? I would rather, I'd rather have Marcus smart. Right. Or how about this? Can I throw this at you? Get ready.

Hold on to your forehead. It might explode. Oh God. Right. Or how about this? Can I throw this at you? Get ready. Hold on to your forehead. It might explode. Oh, God. Okay. What about Charlotte? What about Terry Rozier signing trade? Wouldn't Terry Rozier be good on the Pelicans? Isn't that a trade that makes sense?

And we put the Ball brothers together? Oh, my goodness. Lonzo and LaMelo? Why not, huh? Why not? I'm all in. I was Googling this. I haven't seen anybody even talk about it.

But I feel like if they turn Lonzo into Rogier, if you're going to lose Lonzo anyway. Very different players. Rogier's kind of the perfect guy to be on the Pelicans. Right? He thinks he's a little better than he is, but he is good. Doesn't totally need the ball. Is a good spot-off shooter.

But wants the ball. Right. That's fine. Somebody else is going to need the ball. Is a good spot-off shooter. But wants the ball. Right, that's fine. Somebody else is going to need the ball at the guard position. But if I'm the Pelicans and I'm looking at Terry Rozier, do I want to bring him in when I need to make sure that Zion gets what he needs and Brandon Ingram gets what he needs? I'm not sure that's the point guard I want. So you want Marcus then, if you're New Orleans?

Yeah, I think if you're New Orleans, that's what I would do. But if the Bulls sign Lonzo Ball to an offer sheet, you don't have to do a sign and trade. You can just match it. Match it and do whatever you want with it. You can trade him to another team. Right.

Yeah, I think that's the more likely scenario. The Bulls have way less leverage with this than I think people realize. And in general, I don't think people realize or understand restricted free agency and the sign-and-trade piece.

Ultimately, it comes down to do the Pelicans. Would they want Kobe White back? To me, it's like, great. That's another really young player who doesn't make Zion happy and who hasn't been able to stay on the floor and we're not sure what position he is. I like him, but I think ultimately

he might be an overqualified third guard. But isn't that everybody on the Bulls? We don't know who they are. I feel like that's everybody on the Bulls roster, like Laurie Market

and Kobe White, all those guys. I think what the Bulls do, because I don't think they're going to get Lonzo Balls, I think that's where Schroeder lands because he and Billy Donovan

had their thing going at OKC. I think that makes some sense. So that makes some good sense. He better hope for it because the Schroeder market, once he's point guard roulette, once the wheel stops, there's going to be these guys who are like, wait a second, my agent told me I was going to make 20 million a year. Why do I have to sign for seven? What happened? And it's like, guess what? There's two teams left, Washington and Chicago, and there's five point guards available who all think they're worth $20 million. So three of you what happened. And it's like, guess what? There's two teams left, Washington and Chicago, and there's five point guards available who all think they're worth $20 million.

So three of you are losing. That's how this is playing out. Spencer Dinwiddie is another one. I think Spencer Dinwiddie, I know he's had the ACL. I know that, but I think he, I would,

if I were GM, I'd be intrigued with him. I just, Spencer Dinwiddie is one of those guys that bet on himself and won. And I just like the way he carries himself I would argue he lost because he

he hurt his knee in his contract year yeah but I mean I mean in terms of getting himself out of the G League and making himself a valuable person in the league

that's what I'm talking about yeah so I'd be I'd be interested in Spencer Dinwiddie the ringers Big Waz that's his favorite free

agent. And he was like, go back and look at the work he did in Brooklyn. That guy is a really good point guard when he's healthy. He is. And I actually agree. And he's a leader. And you know what else? He's a leader. I remember being there the year I was doing that piece on Kyrie two years ago now. And just

watching him in practice and watching him interact with his teammates, like guys believed in him. Karis LeVert followed him around like a puppy. And, you know, it's not like Spencer Dinwiddie's this, you know, 10-year vet. He's just, I think players respond to him. Well, speaking of expensive point cards,

so it seems like Conley's going back to Utah, and it seems like, and they did this favors trade so they'd have money to pay Conley. And it's the rumor is like 25 million, 20 and 25, somewhere there to me, that's stupid. And I like my Conley,

but he was in the 2007 draft. He's been around a long time. He's had injury stuff the last couple of years. Yes, he has. And it's a market that right now I'm looking at it. Lowry, Lonzo, Mike Conley, Reggie Jackson, Spencer Dinwiddie, Dennis Schroeder, Patty Mills, Goran Dragic, Alex Caruso, like Derrick Rose, Cameron Payne.

There's 11 point guards available. And it's like, why do I have to spend $25 million on Mike Conley? I don't think that's smart. Well, but just remember what you're talking about. It's what you said before about Charlotte. It's Utah. If someone wants to come back and someone's been successful in your system and he wants to come back and he has like, let's, I don't know this for a fact, but I think that he

and Donovan Mitchell have respect for one another and believe in one another. And if Donovan Mitchell says to you, hey, I hope you're bringing Mike Conley back, I'd bring him back. You're not going to be a major free agent destination if you're the Utah Jazz. It's just never been true. I'm bringing him back for 15 to 17. And it's like, look, if you feel like you can go out and get 20 plus from somebody, you've already made $200 million as a player and you know you're happy here.

We're not going higher than that with your injury history. We're just not. Because if you get hurt again, we're screwed. But I think there's a chance if you send him out there, he could get that money because once Lowry's off the board, who's better than Mike Conley? Okay, then I'll sign Goran D Dragic for a year for $9 million. Am I worse? Like, honestly, am I considerably worse?

Like, this has now ruined my title chances that I downgraded from Conley to Dragic, but I saved $17 million in salary that I can use on other players? That's the part I don't get with this. I think these teams... Well, but I think, too, I'll say this. I think there's, because of this whole player empowerment movement that we've seen happen over the last few years, and we've referenced this in the past about doing right by your players.

And more importantly, doing wrong by your players and the fallout from that and how it affects your franchise. And we saw it in Boston. You mentioned the Isaiah Thomas thing, which every GM in the world would have done. We've said that a thousand times, but it was a bad look that left a bad taste for a long time. It's a good point. It's a good point. So it's almost like the tax. So he's worth 17 and it's an $8 million tax to win goodwill with Mitchell and to show everybody else on the team that

they're willing to stay. But I mean, I just don't think he's a $25 million player. And I know the advanced metrics loves him and all that. But at his age with his injury history, that's a really risky one. But you just have to overpay for everybody in small markets like that. You just do. That's how it goes. That's just the way of the world. I would agree with you 9 out of 10 times.

I think this year, there's so many point guards. That's the thing. It's amazing. What is Reggie Jackson? I left the playoffs thinking Reggie Jackson was an $80 million guy. I really did. And then I looked at all the names of the numbers. I'm like, oh man, he's going to be lucky to get nine.

This is a guy who was unguardable in two straight playoff series. And he was such a good story. He was so honest about where he was and how they you know the emotion of this team saving him i loved all that i mean i don't think they're going to bring him back though because they probably can't afford him i mean so then i guess it's on him how much money do you want to take to stay there because you're not going to get what you what you can probably get in the open market well wait a second they can't i mean ballmer can afford them.

They're just going to be a major tax team if they bring him back because of the Morris contract from last year. But what happens if Kawhi's like, I'm not re-signing unless you also re-sign Reggie Jackson? Wouldn't that be cool? I wish that would happen. I would love that.

Does Kawhi think that way? I have no idea how Kawhi thinks. I would love to spend a day with Kawhi and try to learn to get to know him because I can't figure him out. I've always found him to be very respectful and polite and kind of a little funny, a little dry, but I don't know.

I have no idea what he's like. There was a funny tweet. It was something about he opted out. Everyone's like, oh. And then it's like he's expected to re-sign with the Clippers. And somebody responded to the tweet. I actually went on Twitter today to see what was going on. And somebody responded to the tweet.

He's expected. How does anyone know what to expect from Kawhi Leonard? He doesn't talk to other human beings. What do you mean? We're expecting anything from him? But I guess the Clippers, I just feel like when stuff happens like summer 2019,

there's some wink-wink stuff and under-the-table stuff that we'll never know about. There's bodies buried and skeletons and he's going to be going back, would be my guess. I think so, too. And I think that I do think he's an upset. I just remember when he won um

defensive player of the year I happen to be in San Antonio this is a few years back obviously now because he hasn't played in San Antonio for a while but Pop went after him after it was it was just a regular season game and you know he didn't play the team didn't play well they lost and he was ripping on Kawhi about his defense and Kawhi was just sitting up there and he's like well he's right I gotta do better he's absolutely right and, he's right. I got to do better. He's absolutely right. And I believed him. I believed him when he said it.

It seemed very sincere to me. So I think he probably has looked back on his very short tenure with the Clippers and says, yeah, I owe them a little something. Now, I don't know that. I don't know that. This is just me. This is conjecture on my part. But I think he probably feels like my work isn't done here. The Toronto Raptors, they don't owe. He This is just me. This is conjecture on my part. But I think he probably feels like, my work isn't done here.

You know, the Toronto Raptors, they don't owe, he doesn't owe them anything. He got them a championship. And he did it and said, you know, I love this city, but I'm going home. And I never told you anything differently. I never told you anything. So I don't feel like he owes them a thing. But the Clippers, the job isn't done there. Well, I wonder, first of all,

do they make the finals if Kawhi doesn't get hurt? I personally believe yes. Second, do they have any chance of making the finals if they don't bring back Reggie Jackson? I'd say no, because they're going to be like a 6-7 seed anyway, because they're not going to have Kawhi the whole season. So where are they going to have offense? They kind of have to bring back Reggie Jackson.

Right. And listen, I watch Reggie Jackson play here. He went to Boston College. Oh, yeah. Way back when. I was one of like 40 people that actually saw him play a college game. Nobody went to the games, you know? But was it lightning in the bottle in that during that time,

everything going right with the team and people believing in him and when you get him one of those runs? Or is this who he can be no matter where he goes? I don't know the answer to that. There's some amazing advanced stats with him. Yeah, there are. From that playoff run of him just, him as an isolation guard being on par with like the best players in the league.

Just like, if you just give him space, he produces at as high of a rate as like Luka Doncic. And it's like, not a small sample size. Yeah, it was really fun to watch. I was so happy for him. I really was. He's an easy guy to root for. Back to my guy Lonzo.

Okay. Stevens, he came in a little Michael Corleone-esque after Papa Corleone died, where it was kind of quiet. And now he's starting to take care of family business. Tristan Thompson sent packing. Starting to put his imprint on the team in little tiny ways. And the question, as always with this stuff, is nobody actually knows these guys better than him

because he was there. He was coaching them. He was relying on them. And you're just going to have a better feel for that than if you're a GM. So if he trades smart, that's going to be so fascinating just to think about the last couple years.

Did he just reach a point where he's like, you know what? The pluses really don't outweigh the minuses on this one. Or is he seeing stuff, the same stuff I think you and I are seeing a little bit, where I just think there's been some athletic deterioration with him, where I think it's just harder for him to defend smaller players than it used to be. And much like the Larry discussion. I was just about to say, talk about taking hits, taking roadblocks, throwing your body around.

And, you know, I didn't see him do that as much this year. And I really believe they must have said to him, look, we love your energy and your hustle. And that's your biggest strength. But sometimes it's your biggest weakness. Like when the ball goes into the third floor of the stands and the third row of the stands and you're diving after it and you know you have no chance of getting it and you're going to come up with a broken hand, that's not helping us. You know, it sounds crazy to say that, but I mean, I just remember having a conversation

with Marcus Smart about how people want you to be this maniac on the court, right? They want you to be crazy on the court and cause all this ruckus. And, you know, the best example of all time is what he did to James Harden in the last few seconds of that game, where he just literally stole that game for the Celtics by taking charges of just getting inside his head. But, you know,

then afterwards everybody wants you to hop in the shower and come out like this completely unplugged, calm, normal human being. And like, that's not how it works. So to be Marcus Smart all the time with that kind of energy and that kind of aggression, I think is really hard. And I think sometimes it backfires on him. So his biggest strength is also his biggest weakness. And I think to be a teammate of his is probably most of the time, or let's say a lot of the

time, a real lesson in on giving it all every night and all that. But it also is probably like, all right, man, we heard you. Can you just give me some space? So it's an interesting discussion. Yeah, I think he's maybe not a guy who should be, maybe a lot like Draymond, where after a few years, it's almost like being in the marriage with the spouse

that is just a lot of work. And by year seven, you're like, man. Like my kids would say, he's extra, right? That's what my kids always say, he's extra. And in a good way. I mean, I think you and I have both seen him at his best and you appreciate so much what he does because he's made himself into a really decent offensive player, and everybody refuses to notice. I mean, he really has.

He's made himself into a very serviceable, a good even, three-point shooter, and guys still won't guard him and honor him. And sometimes he takes that too personally, and we have those one for 10 nights that you just are like, oh my God, please pass it to somebody else. But he's hit a lot of big threes, a lot of big threes for this team. And I think he just, the identity as the defensive stopper, I think after a while, it just gets on his nerves. Well, this leads to my favorite part of any podcast we do when I figure out a way to organically bring larry bird into the discussion we're having well let's see what time is it oh it only took you 38 minutes 38 minutes so proud of you so you remember the legend early in his career diving into

scorers tables and skate on the floor constantly and we were were all, fans were like, oh, man, plays the game the right way. Guess what? By about 86, 87, he stopped doing that because he was ruining his back and his body. By the way, all of those, there's this great, one of those YouTube early bird YouTube clips where he's, there's one, he goes flying under the scores table. Like, it almost seems like he's going to die. Right. There's like 12 of those. And then you're like, yeah, that's, that's why he had to retire when, when he was 12 years into the league. How about the one against the Pacers? We like hit his head so hard. Oh yeah. That was the end of his career.

Well, and you know that if there was a concussion protocol, he would have been out for six to eight weeks. And the dude comes back and there's a pigeon that flies in right before him. It's almost like someone let their pigeon loose in that garden. I swear to God, it was the most incredible thing. But he should have been playing in that game. Yeah, so smart, same thing. And I think Kyle Lowry too. I just feel like football, basketball, hockey, your body has so many collisions in it.

And then it's just, you know, and I don't know if Smart's at that point yet, but I thought physically he seemed different to me last year. I didn't feel like, if you go back and watch him in 2016, 17, 18, there's an athleticism to him that I just didn't see in the same way. So it makes me wonder,

I think Lonzo, smart, throw and done as the contract to make this stuff work. But that's actually a move that makes a ton of sense for both teams. And I think Lonzo offensively is exactly what the Celtics need. Somebody who is really unselfish, who can get threes, who's just fun to play with. I thought, honestly, he should have been on the Olympic team potentially compared to a couple of the guys they picked. That one makes sense to me. Then on the flip side,

Smart comes in as a leader for that team, as somebody who knows he's not going to be one of the top two scorers and can try to bring a culture in, which I think he will to some degree. Yeah, he could do that. That's a pretty good backup plan for them. I would rather have that than Colby White. But Lonzo Ball's got to be on board with it.

Yeah, we'll work on him. I'll make some calls. Hey, we have talked about rookies for one second. You know how some folks are quick to doubt the rookies or even understate their excellence coming into the league? Make no mistake, this is their time to shine and show out with career-defining moments on that court. Marcus Smart, when he was a rookie, was there a moment during his first year or second year where like,

oh, this kid has it. I'm in. There was a moment every single game. So he would do some things. You'd be like, what is this kid doing in the league? Because he couldn't shoot at all. But there was a moment in almost every single game I've ever seen Marcus Smart play where he makes one of those hustle plays that we're talking about, whether it's saving the ball from out of bounds and passing it behind his back.

I think he did that his rookie year. Take like a charge four times in a row down the court, maybe only getting two of the calls because he was a rookie. There was something he did in almost every game. I always like, you were talking about your drinking game with Larry bird. For me, it was watching a game that Marcus smart was playing.

And I'm like, okay, when is it going to happen? The one thing that I'm going to go like, this is why I love this dude. You know, every, every game.

And it's usually on the defensive end of the floor. Well, just like these rookies, one on the court, you can win with your insurance by getting the personalized service of a local agent offer a surprisingly great rate with State Farm. A good neighbor, State Farm, is there. See how organic that was?

I love Marcus Smart. I don't know if the Marcus Smart, Jalen Tatum threesome is sustainable for much longer. I think those guys want their own team. I think they want it to be them. I'm not saying they want Smart to get traded, but I think... I think it already is their team,. I'm not saying they want Smart to get traded, but I think...

I think it already is their team, though. And maybe that's part of the problem. I think it already is. It feels that way to me. I told you I would talk to Philly, Lowry. So I theorized this on Thursday's pod. Siakam, Lowry sign and trade.ized this on Thursday's pod. Siakam,

Lowry sign and trade. The two of them together. Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris coming back. The salaries actually work. Basically, you're downgrading a little from Siakam to Harris. A little?

A little? It seems like Siakam is very available so that would make me nervous if i was any of the other 29 teams there's a lot that happened with that team especially this past year and a lot of it was pandemic related but a lot of it was just you know the thing that makes pascal siakam so great is his motor and there is some indication that that motor sputtered and that what you know he's a young guy that i don't know i don't think has a support group that maybe other players have again during a pandemic as opposed to when he's in the toronto raptor facilities and they're with him 24 7 and i think there was some friction there there's no question about that i don't i think

that's i'm you know i mean he was suspended for a game so i'm not really talking out of school here they suspended it for a game and but man when he plays the way we know he can play he's so so good and i think there was just some conditioning wise during the stoppage and play that he didn't put in the time like some of his teammates did. He came back behind, all those things. But he's still a pretty young guy. Maybe Craig can tell me in my little box again how young he is because I'm never good on ages. But he's probably 26, 25.

I would say 26. Yeah. 26 would be my guess. Anyway, so I don't know. If I'm Toronto, that would be hard for me to do. You say he's available, and I'm Toronto that would be hard for me to do you say he's available and I'm not disputing that I don't know that as a fact but I wouldn't give up on Pascal Siakam if I were Toronto that's just me 27 27 what do you think of what do you think of them taking Scotty Barnes over

Suggs I know you're not like a gigantic draft person but no but I actually the strategy of it right and I actually liked that because um and because I don't have time to follow the college players that closely, but what I always do before the draft is I call around to some scouts and GMs that I know just so I don't feel like a total idiot if anyone asks me about it. I got to be honest, they were really high on Scotty Barnes.

He's your kind of guy. I do feel like he's in your wheelhouse. He's just like a win-win-win. It was interesting. I was watching some of the interviews. I do feel like he's in your wheelhouse. He's just like a win, win, win. It was interesting. I was watching some of the interviews. I don't know if Jalen Greed might be amazing. So I don't say this as a knock. But I watched his interview, and it was all about him.

It was like, what do you want to do? I want to win Rookie of the Year. I want to be a max guy. I want to win a scoring title. It was all like these individual goals. And then I watched the Suggs interview and this was like one he did. I was listening to serious NBA. I like their radio show. Um, and it was a Suggs interview and it was all about, I can't wait to come to Orlando and try to build a culture. You know, I'm a natural leader. I really feel like we're going to have young guys. They're going to really need me. But I think one of the. I'm a natural leader. I really feel like we're going to have young guys

that are going to really need me. But I think one of the things I'm really good at is just being the center of a team. And I was just thinking, I would so much rather have the guy who's going, we, we, we, us, instead of I, I, I, me. Again, I know Jalen Green's super talented. My point is, I think Scottie Barnes is like that too.

I think he's a we, we, us, I think Scottie Barnes is like that too. I think he's a we, we, us guy. And that was all the people that loved him would always talk about on the court. He's just pointing, telling people where to go, what to do. He's the guy getting you in the huddle when you're down four and the things are going bad. Yeah, exactly. That's what all these guys are telling me. And I think Cade Cunningham's like that too.

And I honestly think Mobley might be like that. They're four of the top five, I think, are we, we, us guys. I think Mobley's going to be really good. And I would caution against making too much of the I, I, I guy because- Oh, you need those guys. Well, not only that, if some of the greatest players of all time in our league were those guys. So let's, you know, talent trumps all. Talent trumps all. My cup of tea, the kind of team that I would want to build, I would always be very, you know, like Kobe was an I, I, me guy, right? So it's not like those guys don't succeed.

But I would always, I just, those are my guys. I like the we, us guys. No, of course. I don't know how great he's going to be, but I love the fact that any answer he had was about Orlando and culture and all this stuff. So anyway, I think with Toronto, maybe that was a piece of what Masai was thinking where it's just like, I don't really like my culture as much anymore.

Is Masai staying? Do we know? Is Masai staying? Well, it seems like Masai and Presti could have been had over the last couple of months, right? Don't even say that. Gosh. Messiah to me is the grand prize winner. That guy, just talk about able to connect with players, able to connect with people, period. Carries himself in a way. The emotion, which again, we talk about great strengths and weaknesses.

Sometimes his emotions can get the best of him. I just, man, I would love him to be in charge of anything I was involved in. My question with him, are we sure he's going to be a GM in five years? It actually seems like he could be doing something larger than that. Well, NBA Africa is one of those things. And it's very, very important to him. And he's the one that got Obama on board with that. He and Obama are pretty tight.

They spend a lot of time together. They talk a lot. So that's his baby. It means a lot to him. It means the world to him. I talk to him about it a lot because I'm involved with Shooting Touch, as you know, the organization where we're helping understood people in Rwanda. And we've talked actually a little bit with Masai about NBA Africa and whether that's something we want to do, get involved with them because they're doing great work in Africa.

And I think it's very, very important to Masai. And to him, it's basketball, but it's bigger than basketball. He's transforming lives and cultures there. There's two routes for him because he'll never stop doing the NBA Africa stuff. I think there's like the Riley path, where you go to a new team and you're getting a piece.

And you are the face of that team. You are a part owner. You are the most important guy in that franchise, the whole thing. But it's a bigger market, maybe a little more impactful than Toronto. No offense, Toronto. But I'm saying there's five key NBA cities. Maybe it's one of those five. The other one is like, all right, let's say Adam says,

I have three years left. Oh, there you go. Who's the next commissioner? Why wouldn't Messiah's hat be in the ring for that? I absolutely think he could do it. He'd have to have a really strong business guy riding shotgun with him, but I think that's the kind of person you'd have to think about. He'd also have to

have a very, very close PR guy at his side because Masai is very honest and in doing so, sometimes as a commissioner of the NBA would say things that probably wouldn't be in his best interest. They'd be true and they'd be honest, but not in the best interest of the league.

You have to have a little bit of the savoir-faire to stay away from some of the things. All right, so you think Siakam, you would lean toward him staying, not leaving? Well, that's my own personal preference. I don't know. I mean, I just wouldn't give up on him. I just wouldn't.

What happens with John Collins? I think he goes back to Atlanta. I think people are actually backing off from John Collins because they feel like Atlanta's going to take care of it. So I think he goes back there. I think he genuinely wants to make it work there. I think the so-called friction between he and Trey Young has been way overblown. I've talked to both of them about it and they both say, we just both want to win. Hard truths, hard talk. I'm good with it. I could take it. I like it. I think he's going to stay right where he is. How about Zach Collins, by the way? I'm just throwing Zach Collins. I know he's had his third ankle surgery and all that,

but didn't you think when Zach Collins first got in the league, he was going to be, I thought he was going to be a really, really good player. Like, would you take a flyer on Zach Collins? I know he's injury prone, obviously. Three surgeries, that's bad. That's two surgeries, too many. But would you take a flyer on him? Yeah. I think that the irony of this free agent class is there's 28, I'd take a flyer on that guy, guys. This thing, he's one of them. We haven't really seen him play at all in the last couple years, but he's definitely a rotation guy and a good team if he's healthy.

He's a classic if he's a healthy guy. On the Collins thing, this is where I think the league really... I just don't understand certain things about this league, about how teams are run. I would go in on Collins in a way

if I was another team with a restricted offer designed specifically to F over the Hawks. With poison pills and all that? Yeah, if I'm an Eastern Conference team and I already know they're, because there's rumors that they were shopping Reddish a little bit trying to, because they're so worried about all these contracts

hitting at the same time. I would study that roster and be like, all right, let's make a run at John Collins. They'll probably have to... We won't get them. It'll cost us 72 hours before Atlanta ends up matching it. Let's design this in a way. It's a competitive league.

If it's an Eastern Conference team, let's design this in a way, this is a competitive league. If it's an Eastern Conference team, let's do this in a way that we kind of screw over the Hawks. Let's competitively hurt them. Teams don't really do this in the NBA, which I always think is strange. It's very collaborative. Yeah, they used to do it,

but you're right. It's sort of a gentleman's agreement now. Remember when Daryl did it to, what was it, Omer Asik? Oh, gosh. And Jeremy Laney did those poison pill things and Dolan was so mad. Yeah, that was ugly. Daryl doesn't care, man.

He doesn't care at all. All right, so we think Collins goes back. I agree. Indiana, Brogdon gone, Turner gone, both of them gone, both stay. What would your bet be? Well, you know, and again, this is not me reporting this, but I did see reports of a Brogdon for Ball thing. I saw that somewhere. Malcolm Brogdon for Lonzo Ball. And I'm thinking, why would that make any sense at all? I like Malcolm Brogdon a lot.

I thought he had a great year for Indiana. Not a good year, a great year. I think he's part of your solution, not part of your problem. We've talked ad nauseum, I feel, about Miles Turner and Sabonis and that fit or not fit, depending on how you view it. Miles Turner could have been had before. We know that because they were in discussions about that. So I would think of the two. He's the more likely, but maybe Brogdon has the better market. I don't know. Brogdon fits to me. Rick Carlisle is back. Is Malcolm Brogdon made for Rick Carlisle or what?

I know. If I were them, I wouldn't do anything. I wouldn't either. I would just wait because their coaching situation was such a disaster last year. It was. Bring in Carlisle, let him see what he has, and then decide December, January, February,

who's going to be on the team in April. Yeah, there'll always be a market. They don't do it now. Yeah. There's always, and you know, I would wonder too with the Sixers, they don't have to trade Ben Simmons right now. There's no reason they have to trade him now.

I mean, I do think they're going to trade him, but I don't think you have to trade him out of, because, oh my gosh, the free agency, we got to trade him now. I mean, I do think they're going to trade him, but I don't think you have to trade him out of, because, oh my gosh, the free agency, we got to move him now. I don't think Daryl feels that way at all. I've thought about this. I actually kind of feel like they have to trade him this summer.

Here's why. Why? Because of the city he plays in and the general mood of Sixers fans with Ben Simmons. And if it's like, hey, we're going to just, we'll start the season, first game where he goes

two for 10 from the free throw line or something at home. By the time the fourth one misses, the whole crowd's going to be booing him. I think they want him to go. I don't think he wants to stay. And I just wonder, like, you could really, his trade value is already so much different

than it was when he was the centerpiece of a James Harden trade. It was like him, Maxie, two first rounders, seemed pretty fair for James Harden. Now, I don't know what you would have to throw in for James Harden. They would be way more than that. And what happens if it gets worse than this? Then you're looking at CJ McCollum straight up? What if it gets better? What if it gets worse than this then you're looking at like CJ McCollum straight up what if it gets better

what if he's in the gym right now shooting free throws and I'm not saying this is going to happen I do think you're right I don't think he'll be on their opening day roster but let's just play just for argument's sake what if he comes out in game 1

of the 21-22 season and takes 8 threes in the first game and makes three of them? I think he's capable of it. I'm telling you. I've always maintained that Ben Simmons' problem is he wants to shoot 50% from the three-point line. And if he can't do that, he's not interested. And I even said to him when I did that interview with him, why not just shoot 34% to start

and move your way up or whatever? I know he can do it. I know he can. I believe he can do it. What's the lowest you'd take for him? The lowest? Is McCollum the floor? I would never make that deal.

Yeah. I would not. So you'd need McCollum and picks, but would never make that deal. Yeah. I would not. So you need McCollum and picks, but Portland doesn't have any picks. Yeah, I can't. I would not do that. I would not. I still believe in Ben Simmons. I've enjoyed Darryl asking for way too much from every team, though,

and playing out the whole process. Yeah. I love it. And we think Duncan Robinson's on Miami right? unless someone throws crazy what if, I don't know, all these teams lose out on Lowry and like the Knicks the Knicks have to do something right?

they have a lot of money who do the Knicks go after? they go after actually you know what, let's take a break and then talk about this alright, you asked about the Knicks So you know what? Let's take a break and then talk about this. All right. You asked about the Knicks. So I'm just going to cross. I'm going to cross marquee people off until we get to the guy we think they're going to go after.

Kawhi, CP3, Lowry. I'm crossing them off. Gone. Lonzo, keep on. Collins, no. Duncan Robinson, no. DeRozan, I don't think so. Why not? The hard way. Wait, wait, wait. Duncan Robinson, no. DeRozan, I don't think so. Why not?

The hardaway... Wait, wait, wait. Why not? I think they're more likely to go hardaway Fournier, and I base this only on... Fournier makes sense. I think Fournier, based on how they wanted hardaway... I'm sorry, Hayward last year and how it was explained to me,

that they wanted just a fluid, multi-position perimeter guy who could shoot and dribble and initiate offense and do a whole bunch of things. And Fournier is Hayward-y. You could even see it in, even when he had COVID last year in the Celtics, but he's, he's easy to play with. I think he's on the right team. You can initiate offense with him sometimes. He's a, he's a little bit heat checky, but he's the type right team. You can initiate offense with him sometimes. He's a little bit heat checky, but he's the type of guy they just didn't have last year. And I don't know.

I don't think they'll go to 22 million for him, but I don't know if anyone will. Hardaway, I think, is another one to keep an eye on. That's interesting. Yeah. I haven't thought about that. What about Schroeder? Well, then it drops to Conley, Reggie Jackson, Schroeder, Jared Allen.

Then we drop a level again to Trent, Powell, Oubre, Barton, Dinwiddie coming off knee surgery. Devante Graham is a restricted. Restricted. Rashawn Holmes, who a lot of people like, including me. I like Rashawn Holmes. I have him circled on my sheet here. And then it drops again to that Mills, Dragic, Caruso,

Derrick Rose, Blake Griffin group. Campaign, yeah, campaign. So if you're the Knicks and you could get up to $52 million, you'd have to renounce Rose, Burks, Bullock, and Noel to get to $52 million, but you have nobody to spend it on. So maybe you go three years, 60 for Fournier, and Noel to get to $52 million, but you have nobody to spend it on. So maybe you go three years, 60 for Fournier, and then you kind of wait to have the market come to you. That's what I would do.

Three years, 60 for Fournier. If you're Fournier, are you taking that? What else am I? Who else has given me that? I don't know. What are the Celtics offering? That's what I don't know. Maybe you do. I do not. I mean, he wants four are the Celtics offering? That's what I don't know. Maybe you do.

I do not. I mean, he wants four years, 80 million. That's what we've- I think if the number has a two, they're out. If the numbers per year starts with a two, that's a wrap for them. Okay. Fair enough, I guess. Would be my inclination.

I think that's a tough thing for them if that's how that goes down. But we'll see, I guess. You're not buying Josh Richardson stock? I'm just not. Not right now. No, I think you bought, you bought, he was low and you bought low and you gave up. I don't know. I didn't love that.

I didn't love that one. Didn't love it. He's, I'm not sure he's ever going to be like, I want them a guy. I want them to have a guy that can knock down shots like knock them down and who do they have I mean I'm not talking about Jason Tatum Jalen Brown I'm not talking about a perimeter guy that could come up and just knock down

threes like Duncan Robinson I mean I'm not saying they're going to do that they're not they can't even get into that they don't have the money to do that but that's the kind of guy you know I did not like the Josh Richardson signing at all, but here's what I did like. That expiring thing, or whatever, the trade

exception thing, it was going to expire. Yeah, it was. They were able to put this contract in there. The problem with the Celtics the last couple years is they never had that $11 to $12, $13, $14 million contract that they could put there. The problem with the Celtics the last couple of years is they never had that 11 to 12, 13, $14 million contract that they could put in other deals. And I just feel like they can flip that deal two months from now. It's an expiring, you know, or they can flip it in February or whatever. It gives them a flexibility that they really just didn't have unless they kept Thompson and they didn't want to keep them. They couldn't keep them. So they don't need them. They don't need them because they've got Horford now and you're going to

re-sign Robert Williams and you don't need them. I'll tell you one thing they did. They upset my father. Why? He'd done a lot of Moses Brown research after the trade and decided he really liked them and his feelings were hurt. That was a weird

transaction too. I don't know. It actually made me think that they have Lonzo up their sleeve because they wanted to dump Moses Brown in that deal for no reason. I thought Dallas conceivably, you could have gotten like a pick swap to take the rich. They did such a favor to Dallas. I know there are allegedly other teams that were also willing to take them,

but Dallas to clear that kind of salary cap room was amazing. And we didn't really talk about Dallas yet, and we should just quickly. But the Knicks, I just feel like, if anything, they're probably better off taking a step backwards. They're not going to compete. The East is going to be better this year. They have no chance. Randall on a contract here,

they're not going to get a Rose-type thing like they did again. The draft didn't really work out. They were kind of three picks away from being able to get anybody. They might be better off just kind of laying low like they did last year and just trying to cherry pick a couple good players. But Dallas needs a good player. They need to come out of this. Well, and they want Lowry.

And we all know who they want. They want Lowry too. They want Lowry. And he's not going there.. They want Lowry too. They want Lowry. And he's not going there. Well, I don't know. Is he? How do we know? How do we know?

They have a lot. They could see the difference between them and Philly or these other teams. They can pay him outright. They have the money to pay him outright. And Cuban will overpay. You know he will. I think their bigger problem is what do you do with Porzingis? To me, that's their bigger problem.

I mean, that guy, talk about a shell of himself. You know, the injuries have affected him offensively, but defensively, he was just, I mean, he was, remember what a force he was when he first came into the league on the defensive end of the floor? He was bad this year. The lower half of his body just didn't look like it was moving and remotely the same way.

You just go back and watch him on the Knicks. Yeah, he was flying around on the Knicks. Yeah, I feel bad for him, you know? So someone told me that Laurie Markkinen wants to go there and team up with Porzingis and Dontish, you know? Listen, as somebody who owns a condo on the water on Markin and Island, I've been waiting for him to find the right team. I think his bowls experience went the worst that ever could have possibly gone.

Like what were, what were the point guards he was playing with that made him better? What was the awesome coach experience he had? Yeah. What, what offense was good for him where it was always like they were kind of trying to cram him into these different things? To me, he had moments. I think it was two years ago. And I remember Zach and I were texting about it because Zach really likes him too. Yeah, yeah.

Where he would get rebounds and he would just go the whole length of the court and not even just go for layups, but go and then kick out. He would go 90 feet and kick out to somebody with a three. And there was moments where he looked a little Nowitzki-ish. I'm not saying he looked like Nowitzki, but it was kind of like he looked like a cousin. You kind of just did say that though. Well, Nowitzki-ish. There was some Nowitzki-ishness. But I think that would be an amazing, if they could pull off, bring Hardaway back get Markkinen and then

figure out some sort of point guard you know like whether it's Patty Mills Patty Mills would be great for them he would be he'd be great for a lot of teams actually Patty Mills I've always wanted to see him

on one more really good team we've seen him produce in the playoffs we've seen him produce in international basketball that's somebody that shows up when it matters if I'm a Mavericks fan, here's my fear this would I wouldn't be able to sleep for the next three nights thinking of this

you basically strike out and the Mavs talk themselves into Kemba Walker basically taking him off OKC using that basically strike out and the Mavs talk themselves into Kemba Walker. Basically taking him off OKC. OKC's hands. Using that. We'll take a flyer on him this year and if it doesn't work out, he's an expirer next year and that's my big move. Because I

know Dallas liked him a couple years ago. They were the runner-up for him, remember? When the Celtics got him. Right, right. Forgot about that. And it's like, no, his knee, we'll get it. And that would show me to my core because I don't think he's going to be the same. I don't think his knee's coming back.

Two straight years of the same knee issues, usually that means it's not coming back. I hope you're wrong. I hope I'm wrong too. He's an awesome guy. Would you trade for him? No, I would not. I would not. I would not. But Porzingis

to me, when you look at Dallas, to me he's like the flashing red light. What do you do with him? Can he get better? Is it just a rehab thing or is this who he is going forward? Looking back, that's not so great. He clearly needs a new team. To me, he's the guy that Spurs, I know the Spurs and Mavs will never trade with each other,

but that's like a Spurs flyer. I think the Spurs need to roll the dice with somebody like that. Spurs have a lot of money too. They have almost 50 million. I don't know what they're going to do. They had the worst draft pick of 2021. That was like a

freaking stunner. I still can't believe that one. I don't understand that. I'm sure they liked them, but they didn't need to take them at 12. Just take them at flip picks. 19 and 21 for the Knicks. Take them at 19. You're still going to be there. That was really bad.

All right, Westbrook. We can end on this. We talked about it on my pod on Thursday, and I did not like it. The more I've thought about it the last three days, I've now moved into the intensely dislike it for the Lakers. I just think he is who he is. I don't think you can win a title with him. I've now moved into the intensely dislike it for the Lakers. I just think he is

who he is. I don't think you can win a title with him. I don't. The reason I don't like it is because you almost got Buddy Heald instead. Yes. And that's why I don't like it because Buddy Heald's a much better fit for them on that team. And you traded away two

of your best perimeter shooters to make this happen. So, I mean, like I said, I think they'll be able to, you know, the Lakers always have the benefit of getting veteran guys, somebody who can shoot to come and join you. Maybe it's Reggie Jackson on the veterans minimum. How about that? Let's just throw that out.

Wouldn't that be funny? Hey, Reggie Jackson's agent, if you're listening, get Reggie Jackson paid. Go show everybody his second spectrum stats. That guy should be making $15 million. I hope he does. But anyway, I don't like it either, but I understand why they did it. Does that make sense? So I don't love it because I would rather have Buddy Heald on my team.

I'd rather have Buddy Heald and the 22nd pick and KCT. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Every time. Right. But I understand why they did it. And, you know, Westbrook, he's still just, again, we talk about a motor. Like, nobody plays harder.

And the one big reason I'm sure they did it was you talk about advanced stats. The advanced stats on the Lakers were pretty clear. LeBron on the floor versus LeBron off the floor. They could not score. They could not maintain. They could not score. And, you know, Westbrook could score. We know that.

Yeah. And he does have this incredibly high assist rate in the paint, like the highest of anybody in the league, I think. So it gets in the paint and he finds people and they score. So, I mean, he's obviously a great player, but is he a great fit? I think that's what we're both talking about. And I don't love it. I don't love it.

I said this on Thursday. He's played with so many stars now. I think he's probably played with more stars than anyone in the last 20 years. You know, he's Paul George, Bradley Beal, Durant, Harden twice. Yeah, John Wall. John Wall, it just goes on. Oh, no, wait.

He didn't play with John Wall. He got traded for John Wall. No, there was one other one in there too, but now he gets to play with Davis and LeBron. It's just over and over again. I've lost track of all the players. Oh, Cameron Durant, you said, right? Yeah, Durant.

And Harden. And who else did we say? Bradley Beal. I've lost track of all the, oh, Kevin Durant, you said, right? Yeah, Durant. And Harden, and we, who else did we say? Bradley Beal. I've lost track of where he's been. He's been so many places in the last. And he keeps getting, he's never happy in the places that,

he hasn't really been happy in a basketball situation for four years, it does seem like. Well, I mean, I think OKC was, you know, he wanted to make it work there. He's happy because he won the MVP

we know defensively he just comes and goes and does really ridiculous crazy things we know he's going to take weird shots and I just feel the more I think about it he brings a lot of the stuff to the table that LeBron just hates from his teammates you know the guy

who takes the 25 footer with 15 seconds left on the shot clock with a minute left, and LeBron does kind of the double-take face thing. But maybe he won't do that with LeBron. Maybe he's at the point where he's like, man, I just want to win a championship. Kind of like James Harden was going to do in Brooklyn,

but they all got hurt, so he never got a chance to be that guy. I mean, we'll see if he'll do it again this year. Maybe it was Brooklyn. I guess the difference with Harden was going to do in Brooklyn, but they all got hurt, so he never got a chance to be that guy. I mean, we'll see if he'll do it again this year. Maybe he was Brooklyn's new guy. I guess the difference with Harden is Harden has been able to morph into these different basketball personalities, right? That's true. On OKC, he was made in Genovi, basically. He's Genovi 2.0.

Then he goes to Houston, and he's able to basically turn into Kobe. Then he was Steve Nash for a year. Then he went back to being this amazing scorer. And then he goes to Brooklyn. And for what we saw before he got hurt again, was this whole new version of him. Westbrook has never changed one iota in 15 years, has he?

He's the same guy wherever he goes. Yeah. One other thing. I would have done Buddy Hill every day. Every day. I would have too. Because you keep your pick. Have you noticed the big guy market is now officially like,

it's like the housing crisis in 2008. You're seeing these guys now opt in for $9 million, like Harrell and Ibaka. They're like, cool, I get to make 9 million again. You see in the draft, all the big guys went after the lottery, basically, because why wouldn't they? And then you look at all the free agents this year, and there's some good ones, right?

People are like Bobby Portis. What's he going to make? I don't know. Do Bobby Portis-type guys make more than 7, 8 million anymore? Olynyx is a good one. Blake Griffin. Holmes is the only one that I think could actually get paid. But I just think in general.

What about your boy Dwight Howard who drives you crazy? He might go back to the Lakers. Yeah, but I think if you can get dudes for minimum, why not? I'm going to give you five you said you love Cameron Payne as a free agent I do I have a couple that I really like I love Olenek

as a rotation guy on a really good team I think he could come through we've seen him in big games my guy Malik Monk he's going to be a sneaky good signing for somebody so I think that's going to be a sneaky good signing for somebody. So I think that's going to be the Knicks. I would almost pencil him in.

I wonder if the Knicks, De'Aaron Fox. Yeah. I wonder if there's a De'Aaron Fox-Monk reunion in New York would be a good thing to bet on if it was like to long shot bet. Cork Moths. Oh, really? Yeah, well. If I get Cork Moths for like two years, nine million?

But there was something about him when you watched him play with the guys. The guys never seemed to connect with him. I guess this is me observing. He just, I don't know. I'm not as big a fan as you are. If Shamit can just keep getting traded for first-round picks, why wouldn't I just sign Korkmats for two years, $8 million? Poor Shamit.

That's too bad for Shamit. Josh Hart. Yep. Restricted. But I want to see him on a good team. What does he make? $10 million? Something like that?

Less than that. Yeah, it was... But I want to see him on a good team. I like his offensive rebounding. I think he gets his shit. Well, that's what I mean. Do you think he... That's what I'm saying.

Do you think he gets 10 million? That's what I'm asking. Can he get 10 million? Oh. That's what I'm asking. No. I don't think... I think the 10 million a year guys

are going to be less than we thought. I think Holmes could get 10 because he was really impactful. Everybody likes Holmes. Yeah. Yeah. And then

Ken Birch who I don't want to step on Zach's territory because Zach is the number on Ken Birch's list. Yeah, that's his guy. I do feel like somebody's going to

overpay Tice. Tice will get 7 million a year and they'll get to have the whole Tice experience and watch will get $7 million a year and they'll get to have the whole Tice experience and watch them get knocked down 10 times a game. I would just try that Birch.

Get three fouls in the first quarter. Yeah, Birch is good. That's a good one. That's a sneaky good one. But see, the sneaky good ones then become Christian Wood and they get paid a ton of money. That's what happens. The plus minus darlings that all the analytics guys identify and then

they get overpaid. Well, you know who's going to be the most fun example of that is Caruso. There's like amazing advanced metrics on his defense. Like where he's basically like the best defensive guard in the league, according to these seven different metrics. I've been told by everybody, all those analytics guys, don't pay any attention to defensive metrics because defense is still impossible to measure.

I've been told that by a million of them. That's how I've always felt. Yeah. You can't. I think that's where your eye test really comes in. You know what I was thinking about today too, and not that he's going to be a big, because he's been hurt his whole career but you know remember when Justice Winslow like the Celtics wanted to give away

everything they had for Justice Winslow yeah and he's you know cut loose how many games has he played the last three years what a shame you know I like most of the stuff Memphis has done that was the one that I think was really bad because

they really did Miami a favor in a bunch of different ways with that trade. Remember? They gave him Iguodala. They took Dion Waiters back. Speaking of which, Iguodala's out there for whoever wants him. I think we know where that's heading. Do you think they take him back?

Yeah. Probably. I think if the Warriors can come out of this, and we talked about the bottom feeders before, and we know the Nets are going to grab a couple, and the Nets got a couple draft picks that I think could actually play for them next year. Yeah, they actually had a good day because Philly didn't trade Ben Simmons either.

So that was like a good day for the Nets. But if Golden State comes out of this with Batum and Iguodala, and these two rookies they picked, and they have Clay coming back and Poole and they get a little out of Pasco. All of a sudden, that's like an 11-man team where everybody can play basically.

And if Nico Mannion's good next year or- Yeah, we have to see how about Clay. But Batum is such an interesting guy, right? Because he's played at Charlotte or wherever. He's overpaid. They're asking him to do too much and then he was in the perfect role with the Clippers just perfect you know that's exactly it's I always said this about 90 90 percent of all NBA players just need to be in the right situation they're 10

percent of the superstars can play in any situation anytime anywhere any place but Batum's one of those guys it has to fit has to fit and you paid paid them too much money. And it's like the kiss of death for these guys when you pay them too much money and they can't give you what you think they should be doing when, in fact, you plop them into a situation, like Markkinen maybe, a good example, where they can't succeed in the way you want them to because they're not surrounded by the right pieces, because they're not capable on their own of being the player you want them to be. I did a violent 180 on him during the last Clippers season because I thought he was such a bum in Charlotte. I really did. And especially going to the playoff games and watching all the

little stuff he did in person. And you know this, but in person, there's so many different reasons why it's so much better to watch basketball in person. But it's stuff like just watching the little stuff Batum did where I was like, man, he's just really smart. He's the smartest guy in those games. And I think if the Warriors can... Their goal, I would assume, is to just try to not rely on Kaminga and Moody and Wiseman if they don't have to and ease them in, but also keep them available as soon as there's a real trade piece to go after. They're saying all the right things.

Laker gave a whole... I saw it, yeah. A lot of great quotes there. These are our guys. Can't believe Moody fell to 14. We almost took him at seven. He did the whole thing. So they planted the seed of, no, no, we love our guys. Can't believe Moody fell to 14. We almost took him at seven. He did the whole thing. So they planted the seed of, no, no, we love these guys.

They will trade them the moment an awesome star is on the table. They will. I thought I already saw some trade rumors for Moody already. I think I've already seen some of the trades, the possible trades for some of those guys. But two makes sense for them, and it sounds like that's going to happen. And then the Lakers will be a lot of people who have some sort of relationship with LeBron. The Nets, if Cam Thomas, who shaky, I think the reason he fell was people were worried about him as his personality.

But he goes to a Nets team where they're just going to be like, go score. Just stay out of our way and score, which is actually what he's good at. And his personality, it can't possibly be as big as the other dudes that are already there. He'll just get lost in the sauce there. Steve Ness was a genius. All right.

Last thing. We haven't talked to you since Giannis. That was so great. Since Giannis kind of climbed his way into maybe snip maybe sniffing that shack moses hakim group but we were talking about it do you remember we were talking about it right before it happened we said maybe this is he gets seated at the right hand of the father kind of deal and he did it it happened really did and he played one of the great games i was actually really bummed

that i would have loved to have been in that game. I was thinking about it. I kind of, to be in attendance for that one, to watch somebody just make a leap like that in front of his fans. And the whole thing was just great. I loved it. What'd you think? The only thing was they kept showing the fans outside the, you know, the building, the five-serve arena.

And I kept saying to Mike, good God, there's going to be a riot. Like somebody's going to, that's, I mean, I guess that's where I am in my life. That's what I was thinking about, crowd control the whole time. But it was really great. I thought it was great that Kareem was there and Oscar was there.

I thought they did it just right. The Lazarys know what they're doing. Did you think, ultimately, if I had asked you six months ago, does Giannis have that in him? Would you have said yes or no? Because I would have said no. I would have said I'm not sure yet, because that would have been my honest answer. I think that when you talk to him, you feel the drive and the idea of taking responsibility. He's always taken responsibility for his shortcomings, which I always loved about him. Did I think he could change the tenor of a series, which is really what he did. Because it felt like the wall that everyone kept talking about was in

Penitent Patrol, and all of a sudden it wasn't. And that was all because of him and the free throws, making those free throws. That was huge, I thought it just and you know maybe that's a hurdle that he's over forever now i don't know you know shack argues with me all the time about his free throws that when they really counted if you look at i've never done it and i should if you look at him in clutch situations how many free throws he's made he's definitely not true yeah and i'm always like that up i don't think that one's true but i'm always like well geez okay because it's not really exactly how i remember it but with yannis like i wonder if this That's true. Yeah. Somebody should look that up. I don't think that one's true. But I'm always like, well, geez, okay. Because it's not really exactly how I remember it.

But with Giannis, I wonder if this was such a moment for him. Because making and missing free throws, unless you have really absurdly big hands or broken fingers or whatever, is mental. So if it was a mental hurdle for him, is he over it permanently? I can't wait to see. Is he now a 75% free throw shooter the rest of his career or what? I don't know.

I can't wait to find out. The thing you talked about the wall, the thing I was thinking about afterwards, like what was a little different. And it started in the Brooklyn series when he started kind of using the sides of the court more to attack at the 45 degree angles and slow down and kind of control the place a little bit differently. And now that he's figured that piece out and some guys, I remember when LeBron figured that out for him too, like how to not just go straight ahead, not just to be a downhill guy, but also kind of work around the fringes. And now that Giannis has figured that

out, I think he's, if I'm starting players from scratch for next year, I think he has to be first. I would have said Luka should have been first before those last couple of rounds or Durant. I'd Durant first, Luka second. Yeah. I would still take Durant. Yeah, Durant first.

But now it's like Giannis is in that conversation. Do you think the other players who have notoriously been a little with janice do you think they've now accepted him on that level we'll find out and we'll know pretty soon you'll know very early on in the game you know i do think janice he's not um part of the quote-unquote club by choice you know he's not into the clubbing and he threw some darts. He took a couple darts at the chasing a championship stuff. Yeah, he did. And I liked that about him.

But he knows he's different. He's gone about it a different way. He's true to himself and true to that franchise, I think, too. And he didn't care what anybody said about him. He didn't care if he was part of the group in the club. He didn't care if he's buddies with those guys. It's really not what he's about at all. So free agency next week,

and then basketball finally stops for a couple months. That's the word on the street. What a run this was. Holy mackerel. It feels to me like it never stops, ever. I don't know. It feels to me like the Olympics, that's been weird. That's been a strange experience.

It seems like they're writing the ship. I don't know. It's just the curse of pop. I hope he gets his gold medal. I really want him to get it. I'm pretty pessimistic. Yeah, I can understand why. I can understand why.

It is really set up for Luka for a legendary week. Like really an all-timer, like Luka basically beating everybody by himself with Dragic's brother and a bunch of Slovenians. And he just wins the gold medal. It is set up for him. It's like a high school. It's like a state championship

where one of the high schools just has one awesome guy and he just rips through everybody. Right. We'll we'll see it feels good i'm excited for it feels to me like the u.s is rounding into form a little bit we'll see there's been so i've been reading all the stories durant's had a couple interesting tatum quotes that got me excited yeah when he said like oh he's gonna be the next great one. That one, that one. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I don't think I didn't notice that one. I was like, oh. Because Durant doesn't throw that stuff out. He's pretty discerning about when he compliments other great players, he really means it. You know, he doesn't do it for sport. Remember, he's been working out with Tatum for years.

Because he and Kyrie always go to the Bahamas. And then when Tatum got into the league, they started bringing Tatum. So they've known each other a long, long, you know, a long time in basketball years, they've worked out together and trained together in the summertime. So he's had a real firsthand look at Tatum. I think he really likes Tatum. All the guys, Tatum has incredible street cred. You know, like Iverson, everybody loved, like Tatum's got that kind of street cred with the players. The guys that resonate with the other guys are the ones that everybody knows they really work on their game

and their footwork and they love just playing basketball. And those are always the ones. Well, Tatum makes game winning shots. We've seen him do it. And that to me, I think it's more that than the work ethic and all that. Because I think's more of that than, than the work ethic and all that. Cause I think a lot of these guys, they all work hard, but the guys that can make

game winning shots that when they take it, I'm like, I'm not hoping this goes in. I know it's going in. And that's always sort of how Tatum's been. And when, and that's why I think this was a little bit of an uneven year for him because when they didn't go in, it seemed to me like he lost a little bit of his mojo, a little bit of his confidence even for him because when they didn't go in, it seemed to me like he lost a little bit of his mojo, a little bit of his confidence even, and it spilled over to the defensive end of the floor. Yeah. Well, we'll see.

All right, Jackie. It was great seeing you. You too, Bill. I'm sure we'll check in with you later. We got to do Doris. We're doing you, me, and Doris at some point over the next few weeks. Yeah, Doris. She's a busy lady.

Hard person to book. Yeah, hard person to book, but we're going to grab her at some point. My all-time favorite, so I will enjoy that for sure. All right. All right. Take care. Good seeing you. All righty. All right. That is it for the podcast. Two more coming this week. This one was produced by Craig Horlbeck because nephew Kyle went back East. Newsflash, missed his flight on Thursday night.

Remember that was a talking point, wondering if Kyle was going to make his flight or not. Well, update, he did not. He missed the flight. Look, that's his fault for scheduling a red eye during the NBA draft, which is usually one of my biggest pods of the year. He could have found somebody to fill in, but no, he decided to be the hero,

produce the podcast, and race to the airport. And you're not going to believe this, but LAX was a madhouse. Ended up in the wrong, and he ended up, didn't make his flight. But the good news is JetBlue,

an airline that I really like, was able to get him a flight the next morning. So it all worked out, and we all learned a valuable lesson. Don't take get him a flight the next morning. So it all worked out and we all learned a valuable lesson. Don't take a red eye during the NBA draft. So there you go. Don't forget Rewatchables on Monday night, a sports movie that I love.

And then I'll be back on Tuesday and Thursday this week on this feed as well. Please get vaccinated. See you on Tuesday.